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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an air Wave Media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>The Windy City, The Second City, Chai Town, Chicago Land.

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<v Speaker 2>It's got many names, and many many wonderful people, and

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<v Speaker 2>many many wonderful places to eat. It's got many legends,

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<v Speaker 2>many stories of ghosts and strange lore. But since the

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<v Speaker 2>middle of last year, people have been alleging it's got

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<v Speaker 2>a new resident. A winged humanoid quite similar in description

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<v Speaker 2>to the Mothman of Point Pleasant, West Virginia. Is the

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<v Speaker 2>Great City of Chicago being invaded by a mysterious flying

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<v Speaker 2>creature that defy science and logic.

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<v Speaker 1>Stay tuned, Okay, it's actually quite unlike anything we've ever

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<v Speaker 1>seen before.

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<v Speaker 3>A giant, hairy creature park apes and part masts in Larkness,

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<v Speaker 3>a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in the highlands

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<v Speaker 3>of Scotland, get a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monstertal.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner. I never feel like

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<v Speaker 2>I have to apologize for being skeptical. For me, true

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<v Speaker 2>skepticism is about looking for evidence and testable explanations and

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<v Speaker 2>trying to use critical thinking when examining issues. This is

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<v Speaker 2>certainly not limited to the paranormal, but I hope it's

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<v Speaker 2>clear by now that Karen and I and many of

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<v Speaker 2>you awesome monster Talk listeners are able to simultaneously enjoy

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<v Speaker 2>these kind of stories and also to think critically about

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<v Speaker 2>whether or not they're true. Often it's impossible to find

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<v Speaker 2>out if something really happened, but you can check out

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<v Speaker 2>stories to see if there's any obvious discrepancies between what

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<v Speaker 2>was reported and what really happened. Skeptical paranormal investigations are

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<v Speaker 2>a lot like detective work. Did the witnesses report a

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<v Speaker 2>bright full moon, but according to the calendar it was

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<v Speaker 2>really rainy with a new moon. Did the story involve

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<v Speaker 2>a quiet, eerie walk down a lonely street, only at

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<v Speaker 2>the time there was a huge concert and the sidewalks

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<v Speaker 2>would have been filled with potential witnesses. These don't always

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<v Speaker 2>disprove strange stories, but checking out the real landscape and

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<v Speaker 2>circumstances around the story can often reveal details which hint

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<v Speaker 2>at embellishment, mistake and identification, or even outright hoaxes. There

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<v Speaker 2>are plenty of reasons to be highly skeptical of the

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<v Speaker 2>idea of a man sized winged humanoid flying around Chicago.

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<v Speaker 2>For accounts of these creatures that describe a winged humanoid,

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<v Speaker 2>we have the problem that from a scientific perspective, biology

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<v Speaker 2>on Earth doesn't support any evolutionary basis for a six

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<v Speaker 2>limbed humanoid capable of flight. Birds of this size wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>have six limbs. We've talked about the four limb biological

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<v Speaker 2>model before.

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<v Speaker 4>These are called tetrapods.

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<v Speaker 2>I recommend you check out Tetrapod Zoology podcast by Darren

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<v Speaker 2>Nash at tetzoo dot com. Earth is also home to

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<v Speaker 2>flying six limbed creatures, but we call them insects, and

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<v Speaker 2>they're not the size of humans. But just because something

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't fit within the known patterns of biology doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>it shouldn't be researched. It just suggests there might be

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<v Speaker 2>other factors at play, such as mysidentification are sadly hoaxing,

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<v Speaker 2>and even though the very least likely explanation is that

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<v Speaker 2>an unknown human sized animal is out there flying around

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<v Speaker 2>the skies of Chicago, there's no harm in looking. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>there might be something to be gained as these stories

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<v Speaker 2>of what folks are calling the Chicago mothman or the

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<v Speaker 2>Chicago owlman and a few other variants of winged humanoid

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<v Speaker 2>or beginning to pile up. It's wise to be skeptical

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<v Speaker 2>and to check out these claims. Our guests in this

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<v Speaker 2>episode is Alison Jordlin, and I'm linking to a YouTube

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<v Speaker 2>playlist where she's done hours and hours of footwork to

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<v Speaker 2>actually visit all the locations. We're more than sixty reports

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<v Speaker 2>of this creature been pinpointed. I hope you'll enjoy this show,

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<v Speaker 2>and I hope you'll check out the show notes, where

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<v Speaker 2>we link to many of these reports and to her videos.

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<v Speaker 2>These stories are coming from multiple witnesses, but the prime

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<v Speaker 2>source for the accounts is Lone Strickler's website Phantoms and Monsters.

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<v Speaker 2>I've linked to his site and to his book on

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<v Speaker 2>the topic. I did reach out to him, as we

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<v Speaker 2>talk about in the episode, to see if he wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about his experiences collecting these tales, but he

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<v Speaker 2>has declined to be interviewed. But we're not done with

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<v Speaker 2>the topic of Mothman after this, so as always, keep

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<v Speaker 2>watching the skies and your Monster Talk feed Monsteral. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so welcome to Monster Talk, Alison Jordlin. Alison reached out

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<v Speaker 2>to me through Facebook to talk about the Chicago mothman sightings,

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<v Speaker 2>and I invited her on the show because of some

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<v Speaker 2>of the extensive work she's done looking into this matter.

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<v Speaker 2>But I don't think most of our listeners are probably

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<v Speaker 2>I know you or your work. Would you like to

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<v Speaker 2>give an introduction for who you are and how you

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<v Speaker 2>got involved with this sort of topic.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure? Well, I've always been interested in the essential questions,

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<v Speaker 1>as many of us are, you know, whether you class

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<v Speaker 1>yourself as a skeptic or a believer. You know, I

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<v Speaker 1>think we're all interested in, you know, what happens after death?

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, are we alone? All those great questions,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, they always really sucked me in, and so

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<v Speaker 1>I decided, you know that I get involved in researching

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<v Speaker 1>the paranormal. And I guess my first official foray into

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<v Speaker 1>it is I run Milwaukee ghosts dot com, which is

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<v Speaker 1>a clearinghouse for Midwestern ghost stories and other strange tales.

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<v Speaker 1>And I started the first Hunted History tour in Milwaukee

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<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and eight. And I just did that

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<v Speaker 1>because you know, I love Milwaukee and I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>celebrate the folk lore or in the history like so

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<v Speaker 1>many other cities do. They're they're really proud of their history.

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<v Speaker 1>And uh so that's that's where I started. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>much more, I'm you know, much more than just ghost

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'm interested in any anything strange, Uh that

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<v Speaker 1>might give me some answers to those questions, those essential

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<v Speaker 1>questions that we all face.

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<v Speaker 5>Right, Well, we're interested in all those topics as well, everything, right,

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<v Speaker 5>And it seems sorry, oh, I was.

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<v Speaker 1>Just gonna say so. Uh. You know, after uh starting

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<v Speaker 1>the Haunted History Tour here in Milwaukee, I got a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of opportunities to investigate haunted places, and so I

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<v Speaker 1>started working with paranormal investigative groups. And you know, even

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<v Speaker 1>before that, I mean, anytime I go on vacation, it's

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<v Speaker 1>all haunted or you know UFO or you know Bigfoot,

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<v Speaker 1>any of those weird regional localis. You know, if we're

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<v Speaker 1>going on vacation in that area, you know, I am

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<v Speaker 1>out there looking for the weird. So, you know, now

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<v Speaker 1>I'm kind of doing it in you know, a more

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<v Speaker 1>public forum.

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<v Speaker 5>We les Sunds like us too. I think I can't

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<v Speaker 5>tell you how many trips I've organized just on the

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<v Speaker 5>basis of going to visit purportedly haunted locations. But it

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<v Speaker 5>seems like you've been doing this for a little while,

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<v Speaker 5>but we've got you on the show to specifically talk

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<v Speaker 5>about the Chicago Mothman. So how did you develop an

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<v Speaker 5>interest in the Chicago Moffman claims?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, if I started to see that, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, all these claims are coming forward in Chicago.

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<v Speaker 1>If I'm really a Fordian investigator, if I'm really interested

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<v Speaker 1>in the paranormal, then hey, you know, I know I'm

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<v Speaker 1>in Milwaukee, but Chicago is not that far away. It's

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<v Speaker 1>close enough that any any Fordian researcher should want to

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<v Speaker 1>get out there, boots on the ground and take a

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<v Speaker 1>look for themselves. Don't just you know, sit there in

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<v Speaker 1>the armchair and read all these extraordinary accounts. You know, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe get out there and see what's really going on.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course, you know, this is monster talk, and

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<v Speaker 1>I love monsters. I have to just admit that. And

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<v Speaker 1>if there's any chance that I could come close or

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<v Speaker 1>you know, rub shoulders with a monster, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>get out there and do it. And that's that's why

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<v Speaker 1>I became interested. I'm like, wow, you know, like all

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<v Speaker 1>these sightings, like every week there seems to be a

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<v Speaker 1>new sighting. And you know, right now we are up

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<v Speaker 1>to sixty seven sightings and so I've been to I've

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<v Speaker 1>been to sixty of them and then so there's a

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<v Speaker 1>few that have occurred this year which I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>get out there again and make sure that I document

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<v Speaker 1>all the locations because I think anytime extraordinary claims are made,

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<v Speaker 1>you want to get as much information as you can.

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<v Speaker 1>And nothing does that like boots on the ground.

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<v Speaker 4>Wow, sixty seven.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, you've got your finger on the pulse because we

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<v Speaker 5>thought it was sixty three.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well I just checked again this morning and there

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<v Speaker 1>were actually four which if you watch my YouTube videos

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<v Speaker 1>on YouTube dot com slash Mothman, you'll you'll see that

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<v Speaker 1>some of them have been removed and no explanation was given.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm working from Lon Strickler's Chicago Phantom Sightings map and

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<v Speaker 1>it's a Google map, and so I've actually been to

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<v Speaker 1>a few more that have actually been removed, and I

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<v Speaker 1>have about ten that I need to go out and

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<v Speaker 1>investigate in twenty eighteen.

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<v Speaker 2>Now you know, there's you've got a playlist that connects

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<v Speaker 2>all these and yeah, the so for people who use

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you r L short nurse.

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<v Speaker 4>There's bit dot l y. People call it bitley.

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<v Speaker 2>I made a bitly link for it for Chicago Mothman

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<v Speaker 2>with a C capitalized and the M capitalized.

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<v Speaker 4>So if you just go to bit dot l y.

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<v Speaker 2>Forward slash capital C, Chicago capital M Mothman, it'll take

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<v Speaker 2>you right to the playlist.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, great, thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 4>Problem We'll put a link of that in the show

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<v Speaker 4>notes as well.

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<v Speaker 2>So, but that's I mean, you're spending a good bit

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<v Speaker 2>of time out there and I are you doing this

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<v Speaker 2>as a live interactive feed what what's your methodology?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>Because yeah, So what I'm doing is I will I

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<v Speaker 1>go out to the scene and I record a Facebook

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<v Speaker 1>Live video and it goes out to all my friends

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<v Speaker 1>and followers, and then I can take some of their

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<v Speaker 1>questions at if they occur at the location. So you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just trying to be open source, trying to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>reach out to people. So that's where I first will

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<v Speaker 1>put the video is on Facebook Live. That's where I

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<v Speaker 1>record it, and then I take the video and just

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<v Speaker 1>put it up on YouTube after that.

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<v Speaker 4>That's neat I've ever used Facebook Live.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you getting several people involved, like actively asking questions

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<v Speaker 2>most of the time, or how does that work?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it depends, because you know, I don't have certain

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<v Speaker 1>times when people know that I'm going to be out.

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<v Speaker 1>It's you know, I'm a fourth grade teacher, so it's

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<v Speaker 1>whenever I have a free weekend to drive out to Chicago,

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<v Speaker 1>then it occurs. So you know, I can't I can't

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<v Speaker 1>have you know, I can't give people an advanced warning

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<v Speaker 1>that I'm going to be out hunting matha. Yeah, but

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<v Speaker 1>you know, yeah, we do get a fair amount of

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<v Speaker 1>people watching the videos, and that's partly because of the

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<v Speaker 1>way Facebook treats Facebook Live. They really give it prominence

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<v Speaker 1>when you go live on Facebook, so a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people see it.

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<v Speaker 4>How far of a drive this time for you?

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<v Speaker 1>It's well, it depends, you know, it's about two hours generally. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>each way.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's a commitment to checking these places out. Do

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<v Speaker 2>you stop and get some deep dish pizza?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, certainly there's benefits to going to Chicago, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>and I take advantage of them whenever I can. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>like some sometimes it's like, oh man, not like I'm

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<v Speaker 1>gonna get ten done. You know, I'm gonna get ten

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<v Speaker 1>done this Saturday right, and I just go out there

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<v Speaker 1>and and you know, I'm eating bagels in the car

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<v Speaker 1>and throwing papers around. It's, you know, my trashmobile. But

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<v Speaker 1>you know, cause it's really it really is something that's

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<v Speaker 1>important to me. And I'm I'm kind I kind of

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<v Speaker 1>wonder why more people don't do it. You know, if

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<v Speaker 1>the information is freely available about what's been reported, let's

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<v Speaker 1>get out there and see if we can and dot

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<v Speaker 1>some eyes and cross some teas. And if we can't,

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<v Speaker 1>that's still going to teach us something. I mean, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>I really wanted Mothman to jump out of the bushes,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, just to get a little nibble or something, right, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, Karen and I've talked a little bit about this

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<v Speaker 2>because I mean, what you're doing fits into a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of well several different sort of categories of activity. You're,

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<v Speaker 2>on the one hand, you're doing investigation, but you're also

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<v Speaker 2>doing what sort of is being called dark tourism these days, right.

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<v Speaker 5>Like religion tripping and legend tripping.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, there's several names for it.

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<v Speaker 2>But and I've done it too, I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I've talked a few times, and I'm probably going to

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<v Speaker 2>do an art Bill sort of retrospective tribute slash discussion episode.

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<v Speaker 2>And that all started for me back in a road

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<v Speaker 2>trip I took in nineteen ninety seven to sort of

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<v Speaker 2>go see some of the real UFO sites that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I had been looking into for years. But it's the

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<v Speaker 2>imperative to go out there and see for yourself. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not necessarily whether you're going to see Mothman. Yeah, it

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<v Speaker 2>lets you actually what did this place look like, What

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<v Speaker 2>would it have been like at night? What would it

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<v Speaker 2>have been like when the conditions were that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>are there discrepancies between the alleged story and what I'm

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<v Speaker 2>actually seeing on the ground that I think it's a

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<v Speaker 2>really important thing to go check out.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I just want to find something, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to just find an answer, and I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>wedded to it has to be a monster, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>Years back, I went to a paranormal conference and at

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<v Speaker 1>the end of the conference on that Sunday, everybody was

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<v Speaker 1>just meeting to say goodbye, and then somebody ran in

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<v Speaker 1>and they were like, oh my god, I saw this

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<v Speaker 1>creature outside. It's huge, and they had a picture of

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<v Speaker 1>it that they projected on the big screen that all

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<v Speaker 1>the speakers had been using and I'm like, that thing

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<v Speaker 1>looks like Ayena. And my husband and I had a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of time to you know, go out and

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<v Speaker 1>you know before we had to rush home, and he's like, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>do you wanna do you want to just you know,

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<v Speaker 1>drive around see if we can find it, And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>like yeah, And we found it, but it was a

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<v Speaker 1>mainjy fox and it was really sad that it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>this huge hyenail like creature that it appeared to be

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<v Speaker 1>in the picture. But that was really something that that

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<v Speaker 1>taught me an important lesson, which is photos can be

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<v Speaker 1>really deceiving. And you know, we were able to get

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<v Speaker 1>video footage follow this poor little guy around, but then

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<v Speaker 1>when we came back to the conference, there were a

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<v Speaker 1>few people that were still there and we were like, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>we got footage, and they were like really excited, but

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<v Speaker 1>when they saw you know what it really was, they

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<v Speaker 1>were almost mad. And I was disappointed by that reaction

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<v Speaker 1>because I was like, look, we went out there and

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<v Speaker 1>we followed the lead, and I just felt like, you know, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not a monster. I wanted to be a monster too,

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<v Speaker 1>but we got something and I just I just think

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<v Speaker 1>that more people need to get out there and just

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<v Speaker 1>look for their own answers. And I think as far

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<v Speaker 1>as the paranormal goes, you know, I'm not saying that

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<v Speaker 1>extraordinary things don't happen. I have had some extraordinary experiences

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<v Speaker 1>in my life and seeing some things that here too.

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<v Speaker 1>Here to four. You know, I cannot explain by any

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<v Speaker 1>any means that that we currently know. So I know

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<v Speaker 1>those things exist, but I just wonder, you know, we

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00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:33.519
<v Speaker 1>can get out there and we can see, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what is going on and and learn from that no

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00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:40.879
<v Speaker 1>matter what. And you know, I I think in the paranormal,

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<v Speaker 1>these experiences that you have are very personal. You might

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00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:46.919
<v Speaker 1>not be able to repeat them in the lab. That

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00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.919
<v Speaker 1>doesn't mean they don't happen. But I think we got

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00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:52.559
<v Speaker 1>to separate the wheat from the chaff. And you know,

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00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.039
<v Speaker 1>that's what I'm most interested in doing. And that's why

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00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:57.879
<v Speaker 1>I'm still talking about the Chicago moth Man.

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<v Speaker 5>Neat speaking, which can you tell us a little bit

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00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:05.319
<v Speaker 5>a bit about some of the major sightings of the

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<v Speaker 5>Chicago Moffman, Like, what is it the people are describing?

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00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:15.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so there was one in the summer of twenty

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen where a photo was captured, and so I was

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<v Speaker 1>really excited about that one that was in Melrose Park, Illinois.

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<v Speaker 1>So what's been reported is pretty similar, although there are

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<v Speaker 1>some sightings that have been you know, lumped in together,

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00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.720
<v Speaker 1>but where it's like, hey, that sounds more like a UFO,

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00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.079
<v Speaker 1>or hey, that was you know, some kind of bug creature.

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<v Speaker 1>But what's been described as like a seven or eight

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<v Speaker 1>foot tall, dark figure, usually thin, and has wings that

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<v Speaker 1>can be winked to a wingspan of about ten feet,

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00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:58.839
<v Speaker 1>and can have like a crest on the head, like

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00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:03.119
<v Speaker 1>almost like a pointed head, and of course the red

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00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:08.000
<v Speaker 1>glowing eyes. So that's what's been reported for the most part.

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<v Speaker 1>And the Melrose Park sighting that was compelling because it

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00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.759
<v Speaker 1>had a photo. But when I went to that site,

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00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.279
<v Speaker 1>this was a turning point for me because I started

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00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:25.960
<v Speaker 1>to see that things weren't lining up, that they had

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00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:31.480
<v Speaker 1>a photo that went with the sighting. So in this location,

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00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:36.240
<v Speaker 1>Winston Plaza in the Melrose Park area of Chicago, Land

316
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:39.799
<v Speaker 1>is a strip mall, there's no other way to say it.

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<v Speaker 1>And this woman had been in this woman who reported

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00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:46.559
<v Speaker 1>the sighting had been in the Best Buy and just

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00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:49.799
<v Speaker 1>came out of the best Buy, she said, and then this,

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00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, huge creature, you know, seven eight foot that's huge,

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00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:57.559
<v Speaker 1>ten foot wingspring span. I mean, if it's close enough

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00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.319
<v Speaker 1>where it is as she reported, whooping down in front

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00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:06.039
<v Speaker 1>of you, you know that's gonna be huge. And so

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00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:09.079
<v Speaker 1>she reported that. You know, she came out of the

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<v Speaker 1>best Buy, this thing swooped down in front of her

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<v Speaker 1>in daylight, and then she snapped a photo. She was

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<v Speaker 1>able to fumble in her purse, you know, grab her

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00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:22.359
<v Speaker 1>phone and snap a photo in time before it it

329
00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:27.920
<v Speaker 1>flew out of eyesight. Now, so I went there, and

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00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, I'm disappointed when I go to locations and

331
00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:33.519
<v Speaker 1>it's not creepy enough for me, I gotta say. But

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00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:36.960
<v Speaker 1>it was like just your regular runther, the most stripmall

333
00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:43.000
<v Speaker 1>and so busy. That's that's another thing that that became

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00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.799
<v Speaker 1>clear to me as I researched these cases, you know,

335
00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:51.839
<v Speaker 1>sixty some cases. Wow. But why aren't there more reports

336
00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:56.160
<v Speaker 1>is my question? Because those areas where the Mossman has

337
00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.799
<v Speaker 1>been reported for the most part, are very very busy.

338
00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:02.359
<v Speaker 1>In parking lot there. You know, I did stay there

339
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:05.200
<v Speaker 1>for quite a while because what I wanted to do

340
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:08.359
<v Speaker 1>is reframe the shot so I could find the exact

341
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.359
<v Speaker 1>area of the parking lot where the witness took it.

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00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:16.480
<v Speaker 1>And so just the cars coming at you, I mean,

343
00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:21.039
<v Speaker 1>it was so overrun with people. So that's what started

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00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:24.079
<v Speaker 1>to you know, turn my mind to see that, you know,

345
00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:27.680
<v Speaker 1>other than just the report of, you know, this extraordinary creature,

346
00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:31.799
<v Speaker 1>it's implausible that, you know, if it is so big,

347
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:34.559
<v Speaker 1>more people wouldn't have reported it. So I spent a

348
00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:36.960
<v Speaker 1>long time in that parking lot, and I was able

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00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:40.200
<v Speaker 1>to frame up the shot and saw that it was

350
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<v Speaker 1>really far away from the best Buy, you know, like

351
00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:47.519
<v Speaker 1>mid parking lot, So even that didn't match up with

352
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:50.240
<v Speaker 1>the witness report of coming right out of the bus

353
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:54.160
<v Speaker 1>by there it is here I'm taking the photo. You know,

354
00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:57.680
<v Speaker 1>it took like a minute or two to get from

355
00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:00.960
<v Speaker 1>the best Buy, you know, all all way to where

356
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:04.160
<v Speaker 1>the shot was taken. The other thing, of course, I

357
00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:08.119
<v Speaker 1>noticed is Melrose Park is right in the pathway of

358
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<v Speaker 1>O'Hare Airport, one of the busiest airports in the world,

359
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.319
<v Speaker 1>and as I was hanging out there, I saw dozens

360
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.880
<v Speaker 1>of planes, and so then I took a photo as

361
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.680
<v Speaker 1>well of the planes up in the air. And when

362
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:26.640
<v Speaker 1>you compare it with the blurry photo that's purportedly mothman.

363
00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:31.319
<v Speaker 1>You can clearly see the distinctive shape of an airliner.

364
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:36.640
<v Speaker 1>And I was like, why isn't anyone else saying this?

365
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:43.519
<v Speaker 1>It's I mean, why do reports like that just stay

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<v Speaker 1>out there and they're not questioned? This really bothered me.

367
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<v Speaker 1>And I know that not all paranormal enthusiasts and researchers

368
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.039
<v Speaker 1>are that lacks of daisical about it. But you know,

369
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:59.960
<v Speaker 1>I think when you start seeing that the reports you know,

370
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.559
<v Speaker 1>don't match up, you know, that's your alert to hey,

371
00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, maybe we need to do something about this

372
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:09.920
<v Speaker 1>as the paranormal community and call out when things don't

373
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:14.519
<v Speaker 1>match up, because if we're really interested in the essential questions,

374
00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:19.440
<v Speaker 1>and these things that are paranormal are so hard to

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00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:23.599
<v Speaker 1>quantify and qualify, you know, there's just so vague and

376
00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:29.279
<v Speaker 1>and so you know, so so hard to capture. You know,

377
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:33.119
<v Speaker 1>you can't waste your time on something that seems to

378
00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:38.400
<v Speaker 1>be obviously a hoax or or somebody just fooling around

379
00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:41.640
<v Speaker 1>with you, uh, you know, making a bogus report.

380
00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:45.000
<v Speaker 4>Well yeah, so wow, you touched on a lot.

381
00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:47.240
<v Speaker 2>Of stuff there in that In that that that section

382
00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:49.920
<v Speaker 2>of your conversation because one of the things I wanted

383
00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:51.920
<v Speaker 2>to talk about was the source for this material. A

384
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.839
<v Speaker 2>lot of this is coming from Lown Strictler's Fantoms and

385
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:58.920
<v Speaker 2>Monsters website, and he's sort of you mentioned the idea

386
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.119
<v Speaker 2>of a clearinghouse, he's sorts as a clearinghouse, and he's

387
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:05.240
<v Speaker 2>he's seeking out sightings. So he's asking for people if

388
00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:09.200
<v Speaker 2>you've seen something, say something basically related to this. And

389
00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:15.680
<v Speaker 2>I've seen this reported as a sort of a flap

390
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:20.839
<v Speaker 2>of mothman sightings or you know, you know, as a lot.

391
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:25.519
<v Speaker 2>But sixty three sightings in Chicago, even though it sounds

392
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.319
<v Speaker 2>like a lot, is not a lot, because there's about

393
00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:31.440
<v Speaker 2>three million people living in Chicago, and then in the

394
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:35.039
<v Speaker 2>metro area there's like ten million people in the surrounding area,

395
00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:42.920
<v Speaker 2>and sixty three people reporting something strange is less than insignificant.

396
00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:44.160
<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's just nothing, right.

397
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:48.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean, even if they're absolutely sincere, it doesn't really

398
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:55.279
<v Speaker 2>represent a huge number of sightings. But I I'm it's

399
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.039
<v Speaker 2>the way he's gathering that information. And you know, we'll

400
00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:01.079
<v Speaker 2>probably reach out to Laan and see if he wants

401
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:03.799
<v Speaker 2>to talk to us as well. But these you know,

402
00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:10.160
<v Speaker 2>if everybody is sincere about what they're seeing, I still

403
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:12.880
<v Speaker 2>have a lot of questions because it's a really, really

404
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.599
<v Speaker 2>populated city, and not only is it populated, but it's

405
00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:19.720
<v Speaker 2>populated twenty four hours a day. Yeah, I mean Atlanta.

406
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:22.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm from the Atlanta area, and Atlanta shuts down at night.

407
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:24.960
<v Speaker 2>But over the past couple of years, I spent a

408
00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:26.720
<v Speaker 2>lot of time in Chicago for work.

409
00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:29.279
<v Speaker 4>First of all, let me just say I love that

410
00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:30.559
<v Speaker 4>city a lot.

411
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.599
<v Speaker 2>It is a great I know it gets a bad

412
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:37.240
<v Speaker 2>reputation as being like a murder capital, but it really

413
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:40.559
<v Speaker 2>is a wonderful place where you can do twenty four

414
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:43.319
<v Speaker 2>hours a day, you can find something to do. There

415
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:46.119
<v Speaker 2>are people in the street. I never had a bad experience.

416
00:24:46.279 --> 00:24:47.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it was just great.

417
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.599
<v Speaker 4>I love that place, and it's got so much history.

418
00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.759
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, and I'm a fatigue person who went to

419
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:58.480
<v Speaker 1>some of the roughest neighborhoods and never had a problem.

420
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:00.960
<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm not saying don't be cautious, you know,

421
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:05.119
<v Speaker 1>but you know, any anywhere Mothman was cited, I went,

422
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:08.079
<v Speaker 1>and you know, some so some of these areas are

423
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:12.559
<v Speaker 1>are notorious, but you know, I think I think the

424
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:15.440
<v Speaker 1>murder capital idea has been overblown. You're not going to

425
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.200
<v Speaker 1>be acted on the street. If I wasn't, you'll probably

426
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:18.799
<v Speaker 1>be fine.

427
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:22.119
<v Speaker 2>No, that's the It goes back to that high number

428
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:23.960
<v Speaker 2>of murders, and then you have to look at per capital,

429
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:27.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, for the population. Obviously, every murder is a

430
00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:32.000
<v Speaker 2>tragedy for someone. But but uh, I just these Mothmann slidings,

431
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:34.119
<v Speaker 2>I just don't know how significant they are. And I

432
00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:36.359
<v Speaker 2>just I mean, when you think about like Chicago has

433
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:39.480
<v Speaker 2>such a haunted history, my gosh, there's so many ghost

434
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:45.079
<v Speaker 2>stories around Chicago and legends and so many interesting Yeah,

435
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I've always wanted to check out the resurrection Mary stories.

436
00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah. And one of my inspirations for my Haunted

437
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:56.680
<v Speaker 1>History tour was Richard Richard Crowe, who we lost just

438
00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:00.519
<v Speaker 1>a few years ago, but he started the whole Haunted

439
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:05.920
<v Speaker 1>history tour business in the US in nineteen seventy three,

440
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.000
<v Speaker 1>and that's right around the time they were starting the

441
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:12.519
<v Speaker 1>Haunted tours of London as well. So, uh, you know,

442
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:16.559
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy three, you know, that's that's a long time.

443
00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:21.720
<v Speaker 1>But there's just such extraordinary stories from every city. Now,

444
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.880
<v Speaker 1>as you say, Blake, some of those areas are just

445
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.519
<v Speaker 1>so overrun with people night and day because you know,

446
00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:32.680
<v Speaker 1>as I said, you know, when I was doing my

447
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:36.519
<v Speaker 1>MOTHMN videos, I would usually take like a whole day

448
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:39.559
<v Speaker 1>and then stay out really late to try to get

449
00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:42.920
<v Speaker 1>in as many of the locations as I could. And

450
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:46.559
<v Speaker 1>even you know late at night, there's people on the

451
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:51.519
<v Speaker 1>street everywhere. So yeah, my question is why why haven't

452
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:54.759
<v Speaker 1>more people seen this thing if it is so huge?

453
00:26:55.640 --> 00:27:02.519
<v Speaker 1>And my other issue is out when there's obvious there's

454
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:06.440
<v Speaker 1>obvious problems with an account, why is this not addressed?

455
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:08.960
<v Speaker 1>Because like I was talking about with the Melrose Park

456
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:13.319
<v Speaker 1>Melrose Park photo, you know, people just take it on

457
00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:17.119
<v Speaker 1>face value. Now, there was there were a couple of

458
00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:23.960
<v Speaker 1>other reports from from a rougher neighborhood in Chicago. Uh,

459
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:27.440
<v Speaker 1>and I didn't realize that, Oh, there's two reports from

460
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.319
<v Speaker 1>that same corner. So I actually went back there twice

461
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:34.839
<v Speaker 1>on a couple of different occasions. Now, one of the

462
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:39.400
<v Speaker 1>reports said that it was from a police officer, and

463
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:44.960
<v Speaker 1>that police officer said he filed a police report, and

464
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.799
<v Speaker 1>so I was really excited about that because if there

465
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:51.799
<v Speaker 1>indeed was a police report, then you know that's something

466
00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:55.960
<v Speaker 1>we can Act on that's something we can get, and

467
00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:02.240
<v Speaker 1>so I was really looking forward to talking to Alan

468
00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:06.519
<v Speaker 1>and the other members of the Chicago Phantom Task Force,

469
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:10.279
<v Speaker 1>of which I was a member for a while until

470
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.680
<v Speaker 1>I started waxing skeptical uh and was kicked out. But

471
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:19.519
<v Speaker 1>so my my question to them was like, Hey, who's

472
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:24.000
<v Speaker 1>followed up on this, who has asked for the report?

473
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:27.880
<v Speaker 1>And what was the response, because you know, I don't

474
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:31.720
<v Speaker 1>know exactly how it works in Chicago. I've gotten police

475
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:35.240
<v Speaker 1>reports here in the Milwaukee area. UH, and I know

476
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:41.079
<v Speaker 1>I know from freedom of information uh, freedom of Information

477
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:45.839
<v Speaker 1>Act requests that I've done that there. Wow, there's there's

478
00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:48.680
<v Speaker 1>like a certain way you have to approach it to

479
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.519
<v Speaker 1>get the information. So that's why I wanted somebody to

480
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:54.000
<v Speaker 1>come forward to me and tell me, well, who did

481
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:56.519
<v Speaker 1>you approach what happened, so I could follow up so

482
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.920
<v Speaker 1>that we could get this thing. And unfortunately no one

483
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:02.559
<v Speaker 1>and then the group could get back to me. Another

484
00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:05.480
<v Speaker 1>person in the group that I still maintained contact with

485
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:09.640
<v Speaker 1>told me that it was known that there was no

486
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:13.279
<v Speaker 1>police report. It was just like widely known among the

487
00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:16.599
<v Speaker 1>group members that you know that part of the report

488
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:20.799
<v Speaker 1>was bogus. Well, My question is, if someone is going

489
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:23.839
<v Speaker 1>to tell you they filed a police report or even

490
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:26.559
<v Speaker 1>state that they're a police officer, and you can't track

491
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.799
<v Speaker 1>that down and verify it, you know, why would you,

492
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:33.000
<v Speaker 1>Why would you listen to any of the rest of

493
00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:36.640
<v Speaker 1>the account. It's got to be bogus. So I went

494
00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:39.599
<v Speaker 1>through my own sources to see if I could track

495
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:43.680
<v Speaker 1>down that police report, and never was able to find

496
00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:48.359
<v Speaker 1>a report that matched that description. Was able to find

497
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:51.279
<v Speaker 1>out about other reports that happened that day, but it

498
00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:57.880
<v Speaker 1>looks like that report does not exist. And again, why

499
00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:02.799
<v Speaker 1>why isn't that report suspect? Then? And in Lone Strickler's

500
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:06.920
<v Speaker 1>book about the Chicago moths Man sightings, he even talks

501
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:11.359
<v Speaker 1>about that case in particular, and his argument is, well,

502
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:14.160
<v Speaker 1>anybody that's you know, willing to lay down their life for,

503
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:16.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, the people in Chicago, you know, I'm going

504
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:20.359
<v Speaker 1>to believe what he says. And I'm like, well, that's

505
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.319
<v Speaker 1>great if that person's really a police officer, right, but

506
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:27.200
<v Speaker 1>how do we know that this person isn't just opposer

507
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:30.839
<v Speaker 1>If you cannot get access to a report that he

508
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:32.880
<v Speaker 1>says he filed, that yeah, that.

509
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:34.880
<v Speaker 4>Actually, that's a pretty common thing.

510
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:37.559
<v Speaker 2>In historical ghost cases too, where people say we follow

511
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:42.000
<v Speaker 2>a police report or also there was a Pinkerton investigation

512
00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:46.000
<v Speaker 2>or some other well known detective agency and investigated, and

513
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.119
<v Speaker 2>then you never can find any evidence that that was

514
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:52.319
<v Speaker 2>actually true. So yeah, it's a way of adding veracity

515
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:55.359
<v Speaker 2>to the report without actually having to do anything. It's

516
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:59.000
<v Speaker 2>like it instantly gives a credibility, except that maybe it's

517
00:30:59.039 --> 00:30:59.480
<v Speaker 2>not true.

518
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:02.000
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, because I spoke, I'm going to look into it.

519
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:06.720
<v Speaker 1>Right exactly well, And you know, my experience from doing

520
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.079
<v Speaker 1>historical research for my Haunted History tour is, you know,

521
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.920
<v Speaker 1>going the other way, where I'm looking back into any

522
00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:16.200
<v Speaker 1>documentation I can find and seeing what weird stuff pops up,

523
00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:20.640
<v Speaker 1>and that can be really compelling. Although, of course, in

524
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Milwaukee they trashed all the historical police reports back in

525
00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:28.480
<v Speaker 1>the seventies, so I can't go there for at least

526
00:31:28.519 --> 00:31:34.240
<v Speaker 1>historical police reports. So sad, because when you find something

527
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:36.039
<v Speaker 1>in the newspaper, you want to be able to track

528
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:37.960
<v Speaker 1>it down. You know. I have been able to use

529
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:43.039
<v Speaker 1>city directories and other means to verify parts of different

530
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:46.279
<v Speaker 1>accounts in the stories that I use in my Haunted

531
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:51.960
<v Speaker 1>History tours and presentations. But yeah, I would love to

532
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:55.519
<v Speaker 1>have those police reports to see, you know, if there's

533
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:58.279
<v Speaker 1>anything in there. Can you imagine some of the cool

534
00:31:58.319 --> 00:31:59.200
<v Speaker 1>stuff you might find?

535
00:31:59.240 --> 00:31:59.880
<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, yoh.

536
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:02.240
<v Speaker 2>I ran into the same thing when I did my

537
00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:06.279
<v Speaker 2>Watertown ghost research for a ghost photo.

538
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:09.720
<v Speaker 4>The National Archives had destroyed.

539
00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:14.559
<v Speaker 2>They had I don't know how many maritime records from

540
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:18.519
<v Speaker 2>non military ships, just log books, but I'm sure they

541
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:21.400
<v Speaker 2>had a ton of interesting information in them, and they

542
00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:23.880
<v Speaker 2>didn't have rooms, so they got rid of them. And

543
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:27.960
<v Speaker 2>then you know, within ten years, microfish and digitization would

544
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:30.559
<v Speaker 2>have taken care of the space issue, but you know

545
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:33.400
<v Speaker 2>now it's gone forever, right shame.

546
00:32:34.519 --> 00:32:38.519
<v Speaker 1>And one of the things too, about you know, verifying

547
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:41.240
<v Speaker 1>accounts that I think is really important that you know

548
00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:45.000
<v Speaker 1>I told other investigators is hey, hey, guys, not don't

549
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:47.960
<v Speaker 1>take this wrong, because we're all friends here, but I

550
00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:52.119
<v Speaker 1>have said, look, you know there are skeptics, and you

551
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:55.359
<v Speaker 1>know some of them are really dogmatic. You know, some

552
00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:59.519
<v Speaker 1>of them, I would say, are really cynics, not truly skeptical.

553
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:04.119
<v Speaker 1>And if you are going to do paranormal research, you

554
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:08.240
<v Speaker 1>have to make sure that everything that you can verify

555
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:12.799
<v Speaker 1>is verifiable or you know, is verified. Anything verifiable is verified.

556
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:16.920
<v Speaker 1>You know, you can't just take what people tell you.

557
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:20.079
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's great to have eyewitness testimony, but that

558
00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:23.759
<v Speaker 1>can't be the only resource that you use. You know,

559
00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:26.000
<v Speaker 1>you have to find things that can back it up.

560
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:27.559
<v Speaker 1>And if they don't back it up, you have to

561
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.440
<v Speaker 1>say so. And I said, you know, this is how

562
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:35.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, some paranormal enthusiasts have been duped in the

563
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:40.119
<v Speaker 1>in the past, like with James Randy and others who

564
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:47.400
<v Speaker 1>have trapped people in you know, to show the laxness, lackness,

565
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:51.599
<v Speaker 1>laxness sor I can say it of their so called investigation.

566
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:54.640
<v Speaker 1>And you know, I think if you really want to

567
00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:57.480
<v Speaker 1>investigate the paranormal, you've got to be able to have

568
00:33:57.559 --> 00:33:59.920
<v Speaker 1>boots on the ground. You've got to be able to

569
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:03.599
<v Speaker 1>actually go to the places and you know, see what

570
00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:07.920
<v Speaker 1>you can see. So what I started uncovering with the

571
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:12.480
<v Speaker 1>Chicago mouth Man case is more and more inconsistencies. And

572
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:15.239
<v Speaker 1>we can talk about some more of those if you'd like.

573
00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:18.760
<v Speaker 5>Sure, Sure, if you want to tell us about some

574
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:18.960
<v Speaker 5>of this.

575
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:24.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, one person that has helped me in my

576
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:29.480
<v Speaker 1>investigations is Sam Moronto. He's actually the he's the Illinois

577
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:34.639
<v Speaker 1>director for the mutual UFO network. And so this guy

578
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:39.920
<v Speaker 1>is obviously interested in the field as well, very open

579
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:47.039
<v Speaker 1>to phenomena, and he he actually found that several of

580
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:53.440
<v Speaker 1>the cases that were first reported to move On, So

581
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:56.280
<v Speaker 1>not only Lon Strickler was taking the reports in the

582
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:59.880
<v Speaker 1>early days. Move On got a few of the reports

583
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:05.840
<v Speaker 1>as well, and Sam found that several of them were

584
00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:13.440
<v Speaker 1>coming from the same IP addresses. And so again that's

585
00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:17.760
<v Speaker 1>a red flag because if it's coming from the same IP,

586
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:23.719
<v Speaker 1>it's likely coming from the same person. And I mean,

587
00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:27.840
<v Speaker 1>so you have a tech background, Blake, what can you

588
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:31.239
<v Speaker 1>add to that? Because I'm not a tech expert. I

589
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:33.880
<v Speaker 1>know that you are, but you know, if it's coming

590
00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:36.400
<v Speaker 1>from the same IP, you know what does that tell you?

591
00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:40.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, just for listeners who don't know about this, there's

592
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:45.559
<v Speaker 2>this idea of Internet protocol. So every item, every device

593
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:48.360
<v Speaker 2>on the Internet needs to have a unique address and

594
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:50.159
<v Speaker 2>that's called the Internet Protocol address.

595
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:54.280
<v Speaker 4>And so those there's a limited number of those.

596
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:57.960
<v Speaker 2>In fact, this we're using IP version four, which has

597
00:35:58.360 --> 00:35:59.360
<v Speaker 2>a numerical number.

598
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:00.840
<v Speaker 4>I forget the number off the top of my head,

599
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:02.519
<v Speaker 4>but we've run out of those numbers.

600
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:04.800
<v Speaker 2>And so the way they've gotten around that is like

601
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:08.239
<v Speaker 2>a business might have one or two private addresses or

602
00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:10.039
<v Speaker 2>like you know, personally owned addresses.

603
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:10.960
<v Speaker 4>But inside that.

604
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:13.639
<v Speaker 2>Space they have you can give out like you can

605
00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:18.199
<v Speaker 2>duplicate addresses. Uh, and that's okay, but you could track

606
00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:21.840
<v Speaker 2>back to a single user if they have a private

607
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.440
<v Speaker 2>IP address. So it's interesting that someone would have a

608
00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:30.800
<v Speaker 2>private IP address because what they use is something called DHCP,

609
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:33.880
<v Speaker 2>which basically when you when you were with an i SP,

610
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:36.159
<v Speaker 2>they will give you a different address when you log

611
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.119
<v Speaker 2>on unless you pay for a static address. So for

612
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.639
<v Speaker 2>someone to have a static address and then use that

613
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:45.639
<v Speaker 2>to send different reports but from the same IP address

614
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:49.960
<v Speaker 2>suggests that they're well, it suggests one individual is sending

615
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:54.239
<v Speaker 2>multiple you know, claims. It's a it's a fairly reliable

616
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:57.480
<v Speaker 2>way of saying that someone's pulling a prank, is the

617
00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:58.239
<v Speaker 2>bottom line.

618
00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:01.559
<v Speaker 4>It's a good technical way of saying statistically, it's.

619
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:04.599
<v Speaker 2>Extremely unlikely that they would dynamically give out an IP

620
00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:07.760
<v Speaker 2>address to random people and then those random people would

621
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:09.719
<v Speaker 2>get the same address and then use it. So I'd

622
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:14.320
<v Speaker 2>say that's a pretty reliable indicator that that the source

623
00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:18.320
<v Speaker 2>of that information is one hoax or not multiple people

624
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:19.159
<v Speaker 2>within a company.

625
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:19.800
<v Speaker 4>For example.

626
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.079
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so that that was that was Sam's conclusion

627
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:26.639
<v Speaker 1>as well. So you know, there are people in the

628
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:30.440
<v Speaker 1>paranormal that are digging into the nitty gritty and looking

629
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:34.960
<v Speaker 1>for those details because, as they say, the devil's in

630
00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:38.599
<v Speaker 1>the details. And other things that Sam Moronto has pointed

631
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:44.119
<v Speaker 1>out to me is that sometimes quite often actually in

632
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:48.760
<v Speaker 1>the reports, the the witness will say it's a full

633
00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:54.039
<v Speaker 1>moon or it was raining, And so every report where

634
00:37:55.039 --> 00:38:00.800
<v Speaker 1>something verifiable was mentioned, he tracked those down and unfortunately

635
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:03.320
<v Speaker 1>found hey, there was no foam moon that night, or

636
00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:07.400
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't raining or this these are these conditions existed

637
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:10.159
<v Speaker 1>which make it unlikely that this person was actually on

638
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:14.079
<v Speaker 1>a boat that day, you know, seeing seeing two mothman

639
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:16.760
<v Speaker 1>fly above them. You know, there there were things in

640
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:20.519
<v Speaker 1>the report that he could look look at and track down,

641
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:23.679
<v Speaker 1>and he did indeed do that. So there are investigators

642
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:27.079
<v Speaker 1>that are willing to put in, you know, that level

643
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:31.920
<v Speaker 1>of rigor, but there are others who you know, become

644
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:37.280
<v Speaker 1>really popular and then don't don't follow it up, just

645
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:40.679
<v Speaker 1>put anything out there. And my point too is hey,

646
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:44.639
<v Speaker 1>maybe something real is going on. I I I have

647
00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:50.119
<v Speaker 1>taken accounts of you know, strange flying beings. I even

648
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:53.840
<v Speaker 1>know someone who saw something that appeared to be a

649
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:58.639
<v Speaker 1>pterodactyl the size of a piper cub plane. And so

650
00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:02.480
<v Speaker 1>there are people who see extraordinary things, and perhaps there

651
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:06.559
<v Speaker 1>are a few of these Chicago accounts where something was

652
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:13.159
<v Speaker 1>seen that is unusual. But how can you find which reports, uh,

653
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:17.559
<v Speaker 1>you know, are are something that should be looked further

654
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:20.880
<v Speaker 1>into or should be fully investigated When you have you know,

655
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:26.760
<v Speaker 1>all of this nonsense cluttering up, uh, cluttering up you know,

656
00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:31.440
<v Speaker 1>your database, It really muddies the water for investigators there.

657
00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:35.679
<v Speaker 1>If something authentic and weird did go on, how would

658
00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:38.719
<v Speaker 1>you know if you're going to take whatever report and

659
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:40.719
<v Speaker 1>just throw it up there as if it's truth.

660
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:42.639
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

661
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:46.199
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, you were saying earlier too that you mentioned one

662
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:48.039
<v Speaker 5>of the sightings was during the day, but it seems

663
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:51.079
<v Speaker 5>like a lot of the sightings are taking place at night.

664
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:54.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there are quite a few at night, but there

665
00:39:54.599 --> 00:40:00.760
<v Speaker 1>are daytime sightings as well. It's it's pretty much all times,

666
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.719
<v Speaker 1>all hours of the night, all hours of the day.

667
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:10.480
<v Speaker 1>And you know, there there's many accounts which again you

668
00:40:10.599 --> 00:40:14.599
<v Speaker 1>read them and it sounds like somebody's creative writing project.

669
00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:18.800
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like a movie trope, and again that's a

670
00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:23.119
<v Speaker 1>red flag. Another thing that Sam Moronto and other investigators

671
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:27.719
<v Speaker 1>did is is they looked at the report for commonalities

672
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:33.119
<v Speaker 1>in like verb use and phrasing and found that this

673
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:36.920
<v Speaker 1>really looks like it's the same person. But then a

674
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:42.039
<v Speaker 1>friend of mine was able to interview Lanz Strickler and

675
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:46.800
<v Speaker 1>he did reveal that after he takes the account, he

676
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:51.480
<v Speaker 1>will rewrite it to sound more interesting. And to me,

677
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:54.480
<v Speaker 1>that's a slippery slope. You just want to take the

678
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.679
<v Speaker 1>witness account as raw as you can get it, and

679
00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:03.199
<v Speaker 1>you know, to quote them, not wrap a story around it.

680
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:06.239
<v Speaker 1>So again, you know, we don't have any proof there,

681
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.840
<v Speaker 1>But like I said, it's a slippery slope if you're

682
00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:14.599
<v Speaker 1>trying to make something exciting, you know, I think it's

683
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:18.400
<v Speaker 1>exciting already. You know, if we're talking about you know,

684
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:23.039
<v Speaker 1>an eight foot tall flying humanoid, we don't need we

685
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:26.679
<v Speaker 1>don't need any embellishments on that. But yeah, you know,

686
00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:32.639
<v Speaker 1>making sure that the environmental details match up or you know,

687
00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:35.559
<v Speaker 1>the details of the locations matched up. There there was

688
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:42.719
<v Speaker 1>another account that talked about the mothman landing on a

689
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:46.320
<v Speaker 1>basketball hoop, and so I went around and around this

690
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:51.320
<v Speaker 1>account was one of the handful from twenty eleven. And

691
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:53.760
<v Speaker 1>so I went around and around just trying to find

692
00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:57.559
<v Speaker 1>where is this park, And so finally I found it.

693
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:00.199
<v Speaker 1>It was like a little speck between two buildings. It

694
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:04.199
<v Speaker 1>was like a kiddy playground for toddlers, and so I

695
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:07.400
<v Speaker 1>did find it, but no basketball hoop. Now, you know,

696
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.840
<v Speaker 1>you might say, well, you know, maybe they had one

697
00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:15.039
<v Speaker 1>there in twenty eleven, but again it was oriented towards

698
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:18.559
<v Speaker 1>this playground, towards toddlers, and there wasn't much room. So

699
00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:21.159
<v Speaker 1>I find it implausible that there was a basketball hoop,

700
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:23.599
<v Speaker 1>or you know, even that it could have it could

701
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:25.599
<v Speaker 1>have held a mothman.

702
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:31.599
<v Speaker 5>Doesn't play basketball.

703
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:34.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but if memory serves, that's also the same one

704
00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:37.559
<v Speaker 2>where they talked about a five story building in the

705
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:38.840
<v Speaker 2>area and there wasn't one as well.

706
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:43.480
<v Speaker 1>Indeed, interesting again, I went all around trying to find

707
00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:48.920
<v Speaker 1>a five story building. There were no five story buildings, uh,

708
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:52.639
<v Speaker 1>in the location. They all, you know, had three stories

709
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:55.280
<v Speaker 1>as the limit. So I don't know what five story

710
00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:59.400
<v Speaker 1>building they were talking about. So again, these things have

711
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:01.800
<v Speaker 1>to match up up. And you know, I know that

712
00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:07.800
<v Speaker 1>these investigators, many of them are not in the area.

713
00:43:08.440 --> 00:43:11.880
<v Speaker 1>You know, they're not from Chicago, they're not from Milwaukee,

714
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:15.880
<v Speaker 1>they're not from anywhere near. But when somebody like me

715
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:19.559
<v Speaker 1>is willing to go to every site, you know, I

716
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:23.400
<v Speaker 1>would expect that maybe you take some of that information

717
00:43:23.559 --> 00:43:27.920
<v Speaker 1>that I'm able to glean seriously and use that for

718
00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:32.719
<v Speaker 1>your investigation, even if it doesn't it doesn't complement what

719
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:35.039
<v Speaker 1>you're trying to do, you know, you know, maybe you're

720
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:39.039
<v Speaker 1>trying to make out that you know, something extraordinary is

721
00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:43.000
<v Speaker 1>going on, uh, and there's just not enough evidence to

722
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:45.519
<v Speaker 1>support that, good point.

723
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, aside from the discrepancies in the between the reports

724
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.840
<v Speaker 2>and what's actually physically on the ground. And you mentioned

725
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:57.719
<v Speaker 2>that line may have rewritten some of these, I wonder

726
00:43:57.719 --> 00:43:58.039
<v Speaker 2>if that.

727
00:43:58.039 --> 00:43:58.920
<v Speaker 4>May be a factor.

728
00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:02.159
<v Speaker 2>But but what about the description of the creature itself?

729
00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:05.199
<v Speaker 2>Are they consistent or are we were talking about is

730
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:08.039
<v Speaker 2>there some variety in the descriptions of what they're seeing versus,

731
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:13.280
<v Speaker 2>for example, what was reported in Quite Pleasant in West Virginia.

732
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they're pretty consistent in that it was you know,

733
00:44:18.519 --> 00:44:22.599
<v Speaker 1>thought to be you know, eight feet tall, some eight

734
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:25.400
<v Speaker 1>feet tall, ten foot wingspan. You see that a lot.

735
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:27.719
<v Speaker 1>And you also see the glowing red eyes in this

736
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:32.039
<v Speaker 1>feeling of dread. Those are our things which seem to

737
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:36.480
<v Speaker 1>be pretty consistent. But there are some reports, like there's

738
00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:39.280
<v Speaker 1>one where where I actually did get to talk with

739
00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:45.320
<v Speaker 1>a witness who the witness says that he saw, you know,

740
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:48.639
<v Speaker 1>something that had like a scallop bat looking wing. But

741
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.039
<v Speaker 1>when you talk to the witness, you're like, well, was

742
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:55.320
<v Speaker 1>this a humanoid? And he's like, you know, it really

743
00:44:55.360 --> 00:44:58.320
<v Speaker 1>sounds like it's more of a UFO, and yet it

744
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:04.840
<v Speaker 1>was lumped in. And there's another report which describes like

745
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:08.559
<v Speaker 1>a green bug like creature jumping from a high building.

746
00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:12.199
<v Speaker 1>So these things were just kind of rolled in there.

747
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:15.800
<v Speaker 1>There's also another report which talks about just seeing two

748
00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:19.639
<v Speaker 1>red lights, and I guess they put that in there

749
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:24.079
<v Speaker 1>with the MOTHMN reports because of the glowing red eyes.

750
00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:29.239
<v Speaker 1>But you know, the actual witness didn't report seeing a creature,

751
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:34.639
<v Speaker 1>just seeing you know, two floating red lights, which seemed mysterious, hmm.

752
00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:35.960
<v Speaker 4>Interesting.

753
00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And you know, I guess you can't you can't

754
00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:47.639
<v Speaker 1>get away from recognizing that this all happened right before

755
00:45:48.159 --> 00:45:59.320
<v Speaker 1>the December fifteenth, twenty seventeen anniversary of the Silverbridge collapse

756
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:03.800
<v Speaker 1>in Point Play, so it was the fiftieth anniversary of

757
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:08.440
<v Speaker 1>that bridge collapse, which is associated with the you know,

758
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:13.639
<v Speaker 1>most prominent Mothman sightings, which which occurred in Point Pleasant,

759
00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:16.960
<v Speaker 1>West Virginia from nineteen sixty six to nineteen sixty seven

760
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:22.119
<v Speaker 1>and then culminated, uh in that bridge collapse, which which

761
00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:25.400
<v Speaker 1>claimed over forty people, uh, you know, on their way

762
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:29.239
<v Speaker 1>back home from Christmas shopping. So it was a terrible tragedy.

763
00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:33.199
<v Speaker 1>Whether or not it's connected to the you know, Mothman,

764
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:36.639
<v Speaker 1>of course, is up for debate. But you know, that

765
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:41.320
<v Speaker 1>is something, you know, a terrible tragedy that is in

766
00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:44.320
<v Speaker 1>the minds of you know, people that are interested in this,

767
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:48.519
<v Speaker 1>and so it's it's just kind of curious that that

768
00:46:48.599 --> 00:46:52.559
<v Speaker 1>this occurred just in time for that anniversary.

769
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:56.239
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, do you think it could be a do you

770
00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:58.960
<v Speaker 5>think this could be a kind of transplant urban legend

771
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:01.159
<v Speaker 5>because of that?

772
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:05.920
<v Speaker 1>Boy, I mean, it's it's hard to know it. You know,

773
00:47:05.960 --> 00:47:09.079
<v Speaker 1>you don't want to think that that anybody in the

774
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:16.840
<v Speaker 1>field is making anything up for for some purpose. But yeah,

775
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:20.119
<v Speaker 1>it's it's really hard to say. I don't know why

776
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:23.880
<v Speaker 1>there have been as you say, Blake, you know, there

777
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:26.119
<v Speaker 1>should be more reports if it's being seen in such

778
00:47:26.119 --> 00:47:30.960
<v Speaker 1>a populated city. But still, you know, to to be

779
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:35.679
<v Speaker 1>so dedicated to a hoax to keep calling in sightings

780
00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:38.199
<v Speaker 1>and we're up to sixty seven now, I mean that's

781
00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:41.840
<v Speaker 1>curious also in itself. You know, who is so devoted

782
00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:45.400
<v Speaker 1>to this that you know, even even after the anniversary,

783
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:51.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, we had several sightings and we have again

784
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:54.639
<v Speaker 1>and twenty eighteen it looks like it might be the

785
00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:58.039
<v Speaker 1>same as as twenty seventeen. Is is it just that

786
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:00.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's getting some press and more people are

787
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:03.440
<v Speaker 1>jumping on the bandwagon. It's really hard to tell, but

788
00:48:03.719 --> 00:48:08.039
<v Speaker 1>because right, yeah, it's it's really hard to tell. But

789
00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:12.639
<v Speaker 1>is is there some kind of creature in Chicago? Well,

790
00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:15.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, we don't have much to go on because again,

791
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:22.079
<v Speaker 1>the witnesses you contact, uh, the witness contacts are going

792
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:28.199
<v Speaker 1>to so few people, and you're not allowed to verify

793
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:31.639
<v Speaker 1>those contexts. You know, if you try to reach out

794
00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:36.400
<v Speaker 1>to witnesses, you get some backlash from other investigators and

795
00:48:36.519 --> 00:48:40.079
<v Speaker 1>to me, you know, anytime you're investigating something, you know,

796
00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:44.400
<v Speaker 1>I think you would welcome people coming in to try

797
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:47.840
<v Speaker 1>to you know, verify you know, what you're talking about,

798
00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:51.159
<v Speaker 1>unless you know that it can't be verified.

799
00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:53.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

800
00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this kind of ties in with like the idea

801
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:59.000
<v Speaker 2>of pious fraud, right, We've talked a little bit about

802
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:02.800
<v Speaker 2>that before, almosts or talk where people report miracles, and

803
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:07.480
<v Speaker 2>sometimes people fake miracles because they feel like, you know,

804
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:09.920
<v Speaker 2>this is the kind of miracle that would happen and

805
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:13.679
<v Speaker 2>maybe does happen, but we need more evidence because it's

806
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:15.840
<v Speaker 2>it's for the better, you know, it's for the greater good.

807
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:17.800
<v Speaker 4>It helps, you know, give people faith.

808
00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:22.480
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, doesn't go back to Padre Pio and his sort

809
00:49:22.519 --> 00:49:27.159
<v Speaker 5>of ah, some of the things that he's replicated to

810
00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:31.360
<v Speaker 5>try and improve his original claims, to try and reinforce those.

811
00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:34.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, there's so many of those. But it happens in

812
00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:35.679
<v Speaker 4>cryptozoology as well.

813
00:49:35.719 --> 00:49:40.000
<v Speaker 2>It happens in ghost claims where people sometimes hoax, uh

814
00:49:40.199 --> 00:49:42.440
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes I don't even bother to hoax, they just report,

815
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:45.000
<v Speaker 2>you don't even I mean, a hoax report is way

816
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:49.920
<v Speaker 2>easier than actually creating a fake like you know, in cryptozoology,

817
00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:52.320
<v Speaker 2>a lot of times people will do things like bigfoot

818
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:56.960
<v Speaker 2>tracks or you know, fake videos, but I think in this.

819
00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:59.840
<v Speaker 5>Case usually do that when they honestly believe in it,

820
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:01.760
<v Speaker 5>just trying to convince other people.

821
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:04.079
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's really a curious thing.

822
00:50:04.119 --> 00:50:07.840
<v Speaker 2>We probably should do another episode just discussing the sort

823
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:09.440
<v Speaker 2>of psychology of hoaxing.

824
00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:10.920
<v Speaker 4>But it's a well known thing.

825
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:15.039
<v Speaker 2>But also people genuinely, you know, And I think maybe

826
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:16.159
<v Speaker 2>this is the word I'm looking for.

827
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:19.519
<v Speaker 4>It's the question of sincerity. When you're looking at rewritten

828
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:23.400
<v Speaker 4>reports online, it's really difficult to tell how sincere the

829
00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:28.119
<v Speaker 4>reporters are. Yeah, the experiencers are, and and we all,

830
00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:30.599
<v Speaker 4>I mean I think I don't know. I shouldn't say we.

831
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:34.480
<v Speaker 2>All, but a large majority of people would really sort

832
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:41.320
<v Speaker 2>of relish the idea of experiencing something fringey, paranormal, unusual, cryptozoological.

833
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:43.719
<v Speaker 4>It's it's novel.

834
00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:47.159
<v Speaker 2>It reminds you there's something wonderful and strange in the world.

835
00:50:48.519 --> 00:50:52.119
<v Speaker 2>It gives you a glimpse into, you know, these ideas

836
00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:56.360
<v Speaker 2>beyond you know, our mundane, normal drudge of lives.

837
00:50:56.480 --> 00:51:00.039
<v Speaker 1>You know, sure, yeah, get you beyond the mundane. And

838
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:04.880
<v Speaker 1>I can understand that. I mean, that's why anytime we

839
00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:08.239
<v Speaker 1>go on vacation, I seek out those places where these

840
00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:11.679
<v Speaker 1>reports have been made. But I think, you know, I

841
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:16.760
<v Speaker 1>don't I guess I don't understand the psychology of somebody

842
00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:19.840
<v Speaker 1>that just wants to make something up, you know, and

843
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:22.440
<v Speaker 1>it's help self deceive to that level.

844
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:25.119
<v Speaker 2>Well, and it's so annoying for the people who care, right,

845
00:51:25.239 --> 00:51:28.199
<v Speaker 2>like the people who would bother. I don't want to

846
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:31.440
<v Speaker 2>like be a Debbie Downer, you know, I want to

847
00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:35.239
<v Speaker 2>know the truth, you know, And and I don't want

848
00:51:35.239 --> 00:51:38.400
<v Speaker 2>people to hoax because it dilutes the pool of information

849
00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:38.960
<v Speaker 2>out there.

850
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:39.239
<v Speaker 1>You know.

851
00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:43.039
<v Speaker 2>It's it's like, uh, there are strange things that happen,

852
00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:47.360
<v Speaker 2>but you know, whether they're paranol or not is really

853
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:51.880
<v Speaker 2>it's tough enough question without people adding fake information.

854
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:53.440
<v Speaker 4>To the to the things we have to sift through.

855
00:51:54.280 --> 00:51:57.079
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think I think we were on the same

856
00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:00.639
<v Speaker 1>page with that, because you know, I'm like, there's there's

857
00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:04.519
<v Speaker 1>enough extraordinary things that do happen, you know, I know

858
00:52:04.599 --> 00:52:08.679
<v Speaker 1>they're elusive, but and you got to be patient, and

859
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:13.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, sitting through those those you know, eight to

860
00:52:13.159 --> 00:52:17.800
<v Speaker 1>ten to twelve to sixteen hour paranormal investigations, just alone

861
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:23.880
<v Speaker 1>in the dark, you know, talking to yourself enter the recorder.

862
00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:27.079
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that takes a lot of dedication to do.

863
00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:30.920
<v Speaker 1>But you know, there are people out there who really

864
00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:35.360
<v Speaker 1>are are interested in doing the work and I guess

865
00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:38.079
<v Speaker 1>we have to clean our own house of the people

866
00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:42.719
<v Speaker 1>who are muddying the waters. I think that's that's my message.

867
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:45.559
<v Speaker 1>And you know, that's why I'm so glad to be

868
00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:49.880
<v Speaker 1>on today because you know, and I think it's important

869
00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:54.480
<v Speaker 1>too that you know, this is a Skeptic magazine podcast,

870
00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:58.239
<v Speaker 1>but that people who are in the paranormal will talk

871
00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:02.000
<v Speaker 1>to so called skeptics because I think, you know, more

872
00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:07.159
<v Speaker 1>of us have something in common than than not. I mean,

873
00:53:07.239 --> 00:53:09.400
<v Speaker 1>and I think if we brought our two camps together,

874
00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:14.599
<v Speaker 1>there'd be a lot of interesting revelations that would come

875
00:53:14.599 --> 00:53:14.960
<v Speaker 1>out of it.

876
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:18.360
<v Speaker 5>Oh I agree, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I think there's

877
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:20.000
<v Speaker 5>a lot of distrust on both sides.

878
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:24.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's interesting because watching you know, some of your discussions,

879
00:53:24.280 --> 00:53:28.039
<v Speaker 2>I gather that you know, in Skeptic, I think this.

880
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:30.440
<v Speaker 4>Is true for every group that involves people, right.

881
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:35.320
<v Speaker 2>That they they tend to splinter and have issues with

882
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:35.840
<v Speaker 2>each other.

883
00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:40.599
<v Speaker 4>And you knows, factions and different agendas and all that.

884
00:53:40.679 --> 00:53:44.400
<v Speaker 2>But but what you know, there's there's plenty of interesting

885
00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:46.800
<v Speaker 2>things that can unite us. It's just really hard to

886
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:49.199
<v Speaker 2>get people to work together. I've had that problem here

887
00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:51.519
<v Speaker 2>in Georgia as well. I want to go on ghost

888
00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:53.960
<v Speaker 2>tours and that sort of thing. But you know, as

889
00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:57.079
<v Speaker 2>soon as I declare that I'm a skeptic, then they're

890
00:53:57.119 --> 00:53:58.880
<v Speaker 2>not interested in having me shut down.

891
00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:00.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which is.

892
00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:04.760
<v Speaker 4>Too bad because I'm hilarious you are.

893
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:10.000
<v Speaker 1>I've explained that there haven't been more puns like the puns.

894
00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:20.880
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, I'll have to wing it, so.

895
00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:20.960
<v Speaker 1>Oh, thank you. The other interesting thing, though, is there

896
00:54:21.039 --> 00:54:25.440
<v Speaker 1>are people that as as I have. You know, I'm

897
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:27.920
<v Speaker 1>not going to talk too much about the backlash, but

898
00:54:28.039 --> 00:54:32.679
<v Speaker 1>I have experienced backlash, you know, for taking a skeptical position,

899
00:54:33.679 --> 00:54:36.079
<v Speaker 1>and I won't talk about the details of that, but

900
00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:42.559
<v Speaker 1>just to say that I also experienced others who, you know,

901
00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:47.199
<v Speaker 1>upon seeing that you know, I was embattled, would come

902
00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:51.199
<v Speaker 1>forward other people in the paranormal community and told me, hey,

903
00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:54.719
<v Speaker 1>I had something similar happened to me when I expressed

904
00:54:54.719 --> 00:54:57.719
<v Speaker 1>doubts about you know, this other case. So you know,

905
00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:01.320
<v Speaker 1>there are people out there who who are searching for

906
00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:04.599
<v Speaker 1>the truth. You know, they're not all hoaxers. There are

907
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:08.039
<v Speaker 1>people who are sincere and will do whatever they need

908
00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:11.440
<v Speaker 1>to do to try to find answers. And you know,

909
00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:15.400
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to see more opportunities like that. I'd like

910
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:18.760
<v Speaker 1>this where where those people can come together with people

911
00:55:18.840 --> 00:55:22.079
<v Speaker 1>like you guys, and you know, try to sort this

912
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:25.119
<v Speaker 1>all out and get to something better, you know, get

913
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:29.639
<v Speaker 1>to a better form of investigation, you know, move to

914
00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:32.440
<v Speaker 1>the next level. And I think we can really do

915
00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:38.800
<v Speaker 1>that by working together, because you know, I guess people

916
00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:40.800
<v Speaker 1>don't like skeptics, you know, if they're going to be

917
00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:45.360
<v Speaker 1>just naysayers, you know, if they're just going to dogmatically say,

918
00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:48.440
<v Speaker 1>well that's too crazy, it can't be. But if there

919
00:55:48.440 --> 00:55:51.719
<v Speaker 1>are people who like you guys, who are just reaching

920
00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:55.199
<v Speaker 1>out there and you know, trying to figure out what's

921
00:55:55.239 --> 00:55:57.960
<v Speaker 1>what's real for yourself, I mean, like all of us

922
00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:01.679
<v Speaker 1>are doing. You know, I think that that performs a

923
00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:06.039
<v Speaker 1>great service because yeah, I really appreciate that, and I

924
00:56:06.079 --> 00:56:08.960
<v Speaker 1>really appreciate that you asked the hard questions because that's

925
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:10.639
<v Speaker 1>the only way we're going to get to the truth.

926
00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:13.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think we we You've heard me probably say

927
00:56:13.639 --> 00:56:15.840
<v Speaker 2>before that I call us we're in the ghetto.

928
00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:17.400
<v Speaker 4>Inside of ghetto, it's.

929
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:21.079
<v Speaker 2>Already you know, we're already a small group that are skeptics.

930
00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:24.000
<v Speaker 2>And then within those skeptics who are interested in these

931
00:56:24.039 --> 00:56:26.920
<v Speaker 2>sort of questions and and don't just reject it.

932
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:32.000
<v Speaker 4>We want to go. We care, We're interested. Yeah, exactly.

933
00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:33.440
<v Speaker 4>It puts us in a ghetto inside of.

934
00:56:33.440 --> 00:56:36.480
<v Speaker 2>Ghetto, so we're like in a But I'll tell you this,

935
00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:40.360
<v Speaker 2>anytime I'm in Chicago, I'm more than willing to go

936
00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:42.840
<v Speaker 2>look into this stuff and also eat it knof and off.

937
00:56:42.920 --> 00:56:50.159
<v Speaker 2>And also, I would say, and I'm going to say

938
00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:53.719
<v Speaker 2>Nonsense as well. There's a little place called Nonsense, which

939
00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:56.519
<v Speaker 2>is sort of like a sort of.

940
00:56:56.519 --> 00:57:00.000
<v Speaker 4>Indian fast food with curry fries. It's astonished.

941
00:57:02.800 --> 00:57:05.400
<v Speaker 1>That would be the perfect place for us to meet

942
00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:06.880
<v Speaker 1>out of this nonsense.

943
00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:08.880
<v Speaker 4>It is so good.

944
00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:11.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, we're all fighting against.

945
00:57:13.400 --> 00:57:15.960
<v Speaker 4>You know, it's not just the pine. The food's fantastic.

946
00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:19.599
<v Speaker 2>So they don't they're not a sponsor, but Nonsense in

947
00:57:20.079 --> 00:57:22.960
<v Speaker 2>they Yeah, oh.

948
00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:24.719
<v Speaker 4>My god, I love their foods so much.

949
00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:26.360
<v Speaker 1>Let's monetize.

950
00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:31.400
<v Speaker 5>Yes, I guess. We wanted to ask you if how

951
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:34.360
<v Speaker 5>are these sightings of the Chicago Moffman, how they are

952
00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:38.039
<v Speaker 5>similar or different to the original mothman sightings, And do

953
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:41.480
<v Speaker 5>you think that it's possibly the same creature, if indeed

954
00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:42.199
<v Speaker 5>it is a creature.

955
00:57:42.760 --> 00:57:48.199
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think that's what's most interesting to me is

956
00:57:48.239 --> 00:57:53.639
<v Speaker 1>that the original Monthman sightings. You know, these witnesses came

957
00:57:53.920 --> 00:57:57.760
<v Speaker 1>forward to the newspapers, they just didn't go to one source,

958
00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:02.079
<v Speaker 1>and you were And it's still today. You know, many

959
00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:05.440
<v Speaker 1>of the witnesses that are you know, still alive, you

960
00:58:05.480 --> 00:58:10.719
<v Speaker 1>can contact and talk with them. The difference here with

961
00:58:10.760 --> 00:58:14.000
<v Speaker 1>the Chicago moth man is, you know, something very insular

962
00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:17.960
<v Speaker 1>is going on. You know, It's like a few witnesses

963
00:58:18.800 --> 00:58:22.039
<v Speaker 1>have come forward to talk to me or other researchers

964
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:25.079
<v Speaker 1>that I know. But I think that's a big problem.

965
00:58:25.239 --> 00:58:29.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, if there's witnesses and they talk to somebody

966
00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:32.519
<v Speaker 1>who thinks they have an exclusive right to their story,

967
00:58:33.639 --> 00:58:36.880
<v Speaker 1>I think that gets in the way of more research

968
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:40.000
<v Speaker 1>into what might may really be going on. And are

969
00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:44.239
<v Speaker 1>there mothman type creatures? I don't know. You know, I'm

970
00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:47.639
<v Speaker 1>not saying there are or there aren't, you know, as

971
00:58:47.639 --> 00:58:50.079
<v Speaker 1>I as I mentioned, you know, I know people who

972
00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:53.480
<v Speaker 1>have seen, you know, something that looks like a pterodactyl.

973
00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:58.440
<v Speaker 1>But you know, are these real creatures or is there

974
00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:00.920
<v Speaker 1>something else going on? You know, I don't know. I'm

975
00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:03.440
<v Speaker 1>not saying that I'm an expert in it, but I'm

976
00:59:03.480 --> 00:59:08.679
<v Speaker 1>saying that information should be available to everybody, and that

977
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:12.039
<v Speaker 1>witnesses out there should know that, you know, they can

978
00:59:12.159 --> 00:59:16.239
<v Speaker 1>talk to more than one person to report their sighting,

979
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:19.840
<v Speaker 1>and if they did, I think that would benefit the

980
00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:25.719
<v Speaker 1>field greatly. So I think that's the big difference. Also,

981
00:59:26.559 --> 00:59:28.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you guys saw this, but I

982
00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:33.840
<v Speaker 1>was lucky enough to over spring break to go to

983
00:59:33.960 --> 00:59:37.199
<v Speaker 1>Kent in England to do some research on another project

984
00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:40.880
<v Speaker 1>that I'm working on, And while I was there, I'm like, Hey,

985
00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:44.960
<v Speaker 1>what about that nineteen sixty three sighting in Kent? I

986
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:48.719
<v Speaker 1>should do I should do a video about that sighting.

987
00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Because you know, I'm all Mothman all the time. Now,

988
00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:56.960
<v Speaker 1>Unfortunately I do do other things and you can find

989
00:59:57.000 --> 00:59:59.559
<v Speaker 1>more of my work too, Like you know, if you

990
00:59:59.639 --> 01:00:03.800
<v Speaker 1>go to to YouTube dot com slash Mothman, there's more

991
01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:07.199
<v Speaker 1>there than just Mothman. I have paranormal interviews that I've

992
01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:12.679
<v Speaker 1>done with researchers all over the world. I also anytime

993
01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:14.800
<v Speaker 1>I go on vacation, as I said, I stay at

994
01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:18.559
<v Speaker 1>haunted places, so I make little haunted road trip videos.

995
01:00:18.920 --> 01:00:22.000
<v Speaker 1>So if you're interested in paranormal travels, you might want

996
01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.480
<v Speaker 1>to check out some of the videos I've made on that.

997
01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:28.320
<v Speaker 1>So and you know, I have a podcast as well.

998
01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:30.880
<v Speaker 1>I see you on the other side other sidepodcast dot com.

999
01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:34.440
<v Speaker 1>So I'm interested in more than just the Mothman. But

1000
01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:37.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, since I was there in England, I thought, hey,

1001
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:40.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, I'm going to check out the site of

1002
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:44.519
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen sixty three Mothman siting, which is really interesting

1003
01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:48.719
<v Speaker 1>because you know, people don't think about the Mothman occurring

1004
01:00:48.760 --> 01:00:52.719
<v Speaker 1>anywhere until, you know, nineteen sixty six. But there was

1005
01:00:52.800 --> 01:01:01.000
<v Speaker 1>a sighting that was covered in many publications. And the

1006
01:01:01.119 --> 01:01:05.159
<v Speaker 1>interesting thing that I found which made me kind of

1007
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:08.599
<v Speaker 1>reconsider John Keel as well, because of course he wrote

1008
01:01:08.599 --> 01:01:11.639
<v Speaker 1>the Mothman Prophecies about all the weirds going on in

1009
01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:16.599
<v Speaker 1>plaint Pleasant. He wrote that in nineteen seventy five. Now

1010
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:22.760
<v Speaker 1>he also looked into this nineteen sixty three sighting and

1011
01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:27.679
<v Speaker 1>again cast it in the light of the Mothman. Of

1012
01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:31.239
<v Speaker 1>that it was this strange winged creature, but other people

1013
01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:35.280
<v Speaker 1>from Kent thought that it might be a ghost.

1014
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:37.079
<v Speaker 4>But to be.

1015
01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:43.079
<v Speaker 1>Honest, when you read the account, it does seem more

1016
01:01:43.159 --> 01:01:46.840
<v Speaker 1>like a mothman, you know. To just let John Keel

1017
01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:50.199
<v Speaker 1>off the hook there. So there are legends of that

1018
01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:55.239
<v Speaker 1>area in the county of Kent, England, of William Turney

1019
01:01:55.320 --> 01:02:01.239
<v Speaker 1>who was the landowner in that area, very prominent landowner,

1020
01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:04.400
<v Speaker 1>and when he died he was built on a little

1021
01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:07.519
<v Speaker 1>island which is now part of a park. And so

1022
01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:10.960
<v Speaker 1>we stumbled into that park and you know, saw what

1023
01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:13.519
<v Speaker 1>we could see and did a couple of videos there.

1024
01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:17.719
<v Speaker 1>But it was interesting seeing that in the newspapers at

1025
01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:23.480
<v Speaker 1>the time, people were speculating, as you know, saying that,

1026
01:02:23.559 --> 01:02:26.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, maybe this was the ghost of William Tournay.

1027
01:02:26.079 --> 01:02:30.760
<v Speaker 1>But what was really reported was first seeing these red lights,

1028
01:02:32.039 --> 01:02:37.760
<v Speaker 1>this red light coming from the forest, and so some

1029
01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:41.440
<v Speaker 1>of the witnesses just saw these strange lights and others

1030
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:48.440
<v Speaker 1>reported seeing this very tall creature come out of the woods,

1031
01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:54.119
<v Speaker 1>very dark, long wings, very tall, and so that really

1032
01:02:54.440 --> 01:02:57.440
<v Speaker 1>does sound like the Mothman, except for one detail. It

1033
01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:03.519
<v Speaker 1>had webbed feet, So I prefer to call it a

1034
01:03:03.559 --> 01:03:08.400
<v Speaker 1>new creature, bat duck. I mean, that's I think the

1035
01:03:08.440 --> 01:03:11.280
<v Speaker 1>bat duck. It's not really Mothman because you know, no

1036
01:03:11.440 --> 01:03:15.239
<v Speaker 1>reports other than that described web web feet. But we

1037
01:03:15.280 --> 01:03:18.639
<v Speaker 1>have Mothman and then we have bat ducks watch out for.

1038
01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:22.880
<v Speaker 5>I've had of an l man as well in Cornwall.

1039
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:25.599
<v Speaker 5>I think it was and I'm wondering that. I think

1040
01:03:25.639 --> 01:03:28.079
<v Speaker 5>that was in the seventies, though not in the sixties.

1041
01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:33.039
<v Speaker 1>Right, that was in the seventies, and recently, I think recently,

1042
01:03:33.119 --> 01:03:38.199
<v Speaker 1>actually not recently. I have I just have, you know,

1043
01:03:38.320 --> 01:03:42.960
<v Speaker 1>boxes and boxes of all the fortyen Times magazine. That's

1044
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:48.039
<v Speaker 1>my favorite paranormal meg And when the movie came out

1045
01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:52.119
<v Speaker 1>of the Mothman Prophecies with Richard Gear, they had a

1046
01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:55.840
<v Speaker 1>special issue I believe this was two thousand and two

1047
01:03:55.960 --> 01:04:00.920
<v Speaker 1>or two thousand and six. Anyway, they they came out

1048
01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:04.480
<v Speaker 1>with a special issue on the moss Band and they

1049
01:04:04.719 --> 01:04:10.639
<v Speaker 1>looked into the whole cornwall owl Man and feel and

1050
01:04:10.840 --> 01:04:14.719
<v Speaker 1>the you know, the reporter who wrote that article came

1051
01:04:14.760 --> 01:04:17.320
<v Speaker 1>out with the fact that that he thinks it's an

1052
01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:20.760
<v Speaker 1>art hoax. It's it's a bunch of art students that

1053
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:27.280
<v Speaker 1>came up with this out alike creature thing that they made.

1054
01:04:28.320 --> 01:04:31.199
<v Speaker 1>And so that that was the conclusion on that one,

1055
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:33.360
<v Speaker 1>at least in that one article.

1056
01:04:34.239 --> 01:04:34.639
<v Speaker 4>Interesting.

1057
01:04:34.639 --> 01:04:39.719
<v Speaker 2>Interesting, Yeah, Yeah, we love fortyen Times. It's a fascinating magazine.

1058
01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:43.559
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, and again, you know, if you're interested in

1059
01:04:43.599 --> 01:04:46.679
<v Speaker 1>the paranormal, you don't just have to go to places

1060
01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:51.559
<v Speaker 1>which you know, just slap anything up as truth. I

1061
01:04:51.559 --> 01:04:55.519
<v Speaker 1>mean you can you can find sources that have much

1062
01:04:55.559 --> 01:04:58.599
<v Speaker 1>more rigor. And forty in Times is one of those

1063
01:04:58.760 --> 01:05:00.880
<v Speaker 1>where yeah, I mean a lot.

1064
01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:05.519
<v Speaker 4>Of times and they pay, they pay, Yes, which rare?

1065
01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:07.639
<v Speaker 1>Have you written for them?

1066
01:05:07.679 --> 01:05:10.320
<v Speaker 4>Blake, Yes, yes, you have great.

1067
01:05:11.199 --> 01:05:11.440
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

1068
01:05:11.519 --> 01:05:14.119
<v Speaker 1>So that's another source that you can go to if

1069
01:05:14.119 --> 01:05:16.800
<v Speaker 1>you're really interested in the paranormal and you want the

1070
01:05:16.840 --> 01:05:21.920
<v Speaker 1>real stuff. You know, I think you'd be. It would

1071
01:05:21.920 --> 01:05:24.960
<v Speaker 1>behoove you to, you know, find some sources that put

1072
01:05:24.960 --> 01:05:28.320
<v Speaker 1>a little rigor into their investigation, and forty Times is

1073
01:05:28.360 --> 01:05:33.400
<v Speaker 1>one of them. And there's also many many organizations that

1074
01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:39.519
<v Speaker 1>take parapsychology seriously. And there's many journals as well, scientific

1075
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:44.840
<v Speaker 1>journals about the paranormal and parapsychology, So you know, there

1076
01:05:44.880 --> 01:05:50.480
<v Speaker 1>is there is that higher quality research going on. It's

1077
01:05:50.559 --> 01:05:53.719
<v Speaker 1>just that I wanted to be I wanted to be

1078
01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:57.360
<v Speaker 1>more commonplace. I wanted to be the norm rather than

1079
01:05:57.360 --> 01:05:57.920
<v Speaker 1>the exception.

1080
01:05:58.440 --> 01:06:01.239
<v Speaker 2>Well that goes into what of our or at least

1081
01:06:01.239 --> 01:06:05.480
<v Speaker 2>my personal core values, which is Skepticism is a methodology.

1082
01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:07.800
<v Speaker 4>It's not a club, right, I mean, it's.

1083
01:06:07.400 --> 01:06:10.920
<v Speaker 2>Something that people should take on and use in whatever

1084
01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:11.719
<v Speaker 2>their field is.

1085
01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:14.400
<v Speaker 4>To try to figure out what's true and what's not true.

1086
01:06:14.920 --> 01:06:19.440
<v Speaker 4>And if you don't, you know, then how can you distinguish?

1087
01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:21.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you could just be enthusiastic about the stories,

1088
01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:24.840
<v Speaker 2>but that's not going to tell you whether things are

1089
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:25.760
<v Speaker 2>really happening or not.

1090
01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:29.800
<v Speaker 1>So right, why not just read fiction then, is my argument.

1091
01:06:29.880 --> 01:06:33.320
<v Speaker 1>You know, if you're really into the very normal, you know,

1092
01:06:33.559 --> 01:06:37.599
<v Speaker 1>science is a great methodology. You know, it doesn't have

1093
01:06:37.679 --> 01:06:40.039
<v Speaker 1>to be your religion, and actually it shouldn't. You know,

1094
01:06:40.119 --> 01:06:43.400
<v Speaker 1>this whole idea of scientism. You know, there are people

1095
01:06:43.679 --> 01:06:47.480
<v Speaker 1>who take it on as a religion, and to me,

1096
01:06:48.360 --> 01:06:52.920
<v Speaker 1>they're in the similar position as you know, diet in

1097
01:06:52.960 --> 01:06:55.519
<v Speaker 1>the woe believers. We have to meet in the middle,

1098
01:06:56.400 --> 01:06:58.599
<v Speaker 1>and I'm glad that's what we're doing today.

1099
01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:01.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, No, I totally agree, and that we actually I

1100
01:07:01.800 --> 01:07:04.960
<v Speaker 2>talked about that with Messimo Puliucci in a lost interview.

1101
01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:07.239
<v Speaker 4>That's one of the ones I lost. I really should

1102
01:07:07.239 --> 01:07:08.159
<v Speaker 4>have him back on again.

1103
01:07:09.159 --> 01:07:11.880
<v Speaker 2>We talked a lot about scientism and the idea of

1104
01:07:12.159 --> 01:07:15.239
<v Speaker 2>just because something is, you know, has a scientific air

1105
01:07:15.280 --> 01:07:17.800
<v Speaker 2>about it, just believing it automatically, and that's just as

1106
01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:20.440
<v Speaker 2>dangerous right side of the coin.

1107
01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:24.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think too that there's other approaches too.

1108
01:07:24.679 --> 01:07:27.320
<v Speaker 1>There's science, but then you know, there's also you know,

1109
01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:30.480
<v Speaker 1>cultures across the world that you know, have made discoveries,

1110
01:07:30.599 --> 01:07:34.559
<v Speaker 1>have have learned things without the benefit of science. So

1111
01:07:34.599 --> 01:07:37.159
<v Speaker 1>there are other approaches, you know, So we don't want

1112
01:07:37.159 --> 01:07:39.840
<v Speaker 1>to say that science is the only one, you know,

1113
01:07:39.920 --> 01:07:43.760
<v Speaker 1>although hey, you know I love my iPhone that you

1114
01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:46.679
<v Speaker 1>know that technology came right out of science, But you know,

1115
01:07:46.880 --> 01:07:49.519
<v Speaker 1>I think there's multiple ways to look at the world.

1116
01:07:50.480 --> 01:07:53.239
<v Speaker 4>Yes, absolutely, so, uh.

1117
01:07:54.280 --> 01:07:57.360
<v Speaker 2>I first of all, thank you for joining us today.

1118
01:07:57.800 --> 01:08:02.079
<v Speaker 2>I think we can probably just keep talking, but we

1119
01:08:02.079 --> 01:08:03.079
<v Speaker 2>do have to wind down.

1120
01:08:03.280 --> 01:08:07.400
<v Speaker 4>So yeah, we have very good Yeah, thank you so much.

1121
01:08:07.400 --> 01:08:10.199
<v Speaker 2>And we'll put links to all your stuff, your podcast

1122
01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:14.159
<v Speaker 2>and your playlist and anything else you want.

1123
01:08:14.079 --> 01:08:16.000
<v Speaker 4>To send us in the show notes.

1124
01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:18.960
<v Speaker 2>That would be great, and uh and too Lones Strickler's

1125
01:08:19.039 --> 01:08:21.239
<v Speaker 2>page and to his book and people can sort of

1126
01:08:21.279 --> 01:08:23.760
<v Speaker 2>check this stuff out themselves. And we'll reach out to

1127
01:08:23.800 --> 01:08:25.840
<v Speaker 2>Lona see if he wants to talk to us. And

1128
01:08:25.880 --> 01:08:28.520
<v Speaker 2>we're also planning to talk to Lauren Coleman, who's written

1129
01:08:28.520 --> 01:08:30.840
<v Speaker 2>a little bit about the Chicago moth Man as well.

1130
01:08:31.199 --> 01:08:35.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I'm in his book actually, cool. Yeah, I'm in.

1131
01:08:36.760 --> 01:08:40.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm in that one, the the recent.

1132
01:08:39.680 --> 01:08:42.239
<v Speaker 4>One incarnate.

1133
01:08:43.960 --> 01:08:48.880
<v Speaker 1>Will Also his two thousand and two book has my

1134
01:08:51.079 --> 01:08:55.239
<v Speaker 1>one of my reports about a pterodactyl type creature and

1135
01:08:55.279 --> 01:08:58.039
<v Speaker 1>that that was the moth Man and other Curious Encounters

1136
01:08:58.079 --> 01:08:59.039
<v Speaker 1>from two thousand and two.

1137
01:08:59.359 --> 01:09:00.319
<v Speaker 5>Sweet cool.

1138
01:09:00.319 --> 01:09:03.159
<v Speaker 4>All right, So Karen, you want to take us out?

1139
01:09:03.800 --> 01:09:07.439
<v Speaker 5>Yeah? Yeah, So Allison, you know you're a listener, you know,

1140
01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:11.359
<v Speaker 5>are our final question for what's your favorite monster?

1141
01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:14.640
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, see, I should have done more thinking on that.

1142
01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:17.920
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to be so prepared on the other stiffe. Well,

1143
01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:23.880
<v Speaker 1>it's it's not the last man, Oh man, I think

1144
01:09:24.640 --> 01:09:29.479
<v Speaker 1>I think Poltergeist. Yes, poltergeist are my favorite monster. I

1145
01:09:29.479 --> 01:09:34.760
<v Speaker 1>actually know someone who who who is one of the

1146
01:09:34.800 --> 01:09:39.520
<v Speaker 1>tour guides on the City of the Dead tours in Edinburgh, Scotland,

1147
01:09:40.039 --> 01:09:44.039
<v Speaker 1>and so the Mackenzie Poltergeist is my favorite monster because

1148
01:09:44.039 --> 01:09:49.439
<v Speaker 1>there's been so many reports of uh poltergeist attacks over

1149
01:09:49.479 --> 01:09:52.359
<v Speaker 1>the years attributed to the Mackenzie polter guys. So I

1150
01:09:52.359 --> 01:09:56.520
<v Speaker 1>would say that's my favorite monster. In Grayfriars Kirkyard in.

1151
01:09:57.079 --> 01:10:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Edinburgh, Great Grayfriars Kirkyard is such an interesting story. Uh yeah,

1152
01:10:02.600 --> 01:10:05.640
<v Speaker 2>that's uh, we haven't covered that on Monster Talk, but

1153
01:10:05.680 --> 01:10:06.640
<v Speaker 2>that's not I think.

1154
01:10:06.479 --> 01:10:07.640
<v Speaker 5>I'm familiar with that one.

1155
01:10:07.720 --> 01:10:10.199
<v Speaker 1>Well, put you in touch with someone that can tell

1156
01:10:10.239 --> 01:10:13.800
<v Speaker 1>you all about it and who's also a skeptic, so uh,

1157
01:10:14.319 --> 01:10:16.399
<v Speaker 1>you might be interested in finding out more about that.

1158
01:10:16.479 --> 01:10:20.239
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, that's my favorite monster just because it seems

1159
01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:22.680
<v Speaker 1>to be you know, whether it's you know, caused by

1160
01:10:23.279 --> 01:10:26.399
<v Speaker 1>you know people, uh and and their beliefs and their

1161
01:10:26.439 --> 01:10:30.600
<v Speaker 1>expectations or what have you. I mean, they're they're certainly

1162
01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:33.720
<v Speaker 1>something weird going on there with all the scratches, burns,

1163
01:10:33.760 --> 01:10:36.520
<v Speaker 1>and bite marks that you know, there's been over five

1164
01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:40.960
<v Speaker 1>hundred reports and uh, you know, to their credit, City

1165
01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:43.000
<v Speaker 1>of the Dead will actually try to drag those people

1166
01:10:43.039 --> 01:10:45.399
<v Speaker 1>back to the office who have had experiences and take

1167
01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:47.840
<v Speaker 1>photos and take a statement. So they do have a

1168
01:10:47.960 --> 01:10:50.800
<v Speaker 1>database of of those reports.

1169
01:10:51.239 --> 01:10:53.279
<v Speaker 4>That's really intriguing. It's interesting.

1170
01:10:53.359 --> 01:10:56.039
<v Speaker 2>So uh, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.

1171
01:10:56.359 --> 01:10:57.960
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, we could put some links to that in

1172
01:10:58.000 --> 01:11:02.000
<v Speaker 2>the show notes as well. All right, Well, thank you

1173
01:11:02.079 --> 01:11:03.920
<v Speaker 2>so much for taking the time to talk to us

1174
01:11:03.960 --> 01:11:05.720
<v Speaker 2>and all the hard work you put into this.

1175
01:11:06.039 --> 01:11:09.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thank you so much. I'm really glad to talk

1176
01:11:09.159 --> 01:11:10.840
<v Speaker 1>to you, and I hope this is just the first

1177
01:11:10.880 --> 01:11:16.640
<v Speaker 1>four foray of you know, paranormal investigators and skeptics coming together.

1178
01:11:17.640 --> 01:11:24.079
<v Speaker 2>Yes, absolutely, and don't forget nonsense knofknof and lumin Aalto's

1179
01:11:24.119 --> 01:11:25.600
<v Speaker 2>if you're cogno.

1180
01:11:26.239 --> 01:11:28.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and let me know when you're coming into town.

1181
01:11:28.600 --> 01:11:29.840
<v Speaker 1>I would really love to meet up.

1182
01:11:32.760 --> 01:11:35.960
<v Speaker 2>You've been listening to Monster Talk, this science show about monsters.

1183
01:11:36.279 --> 01:11:37.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm Blake Smith.

1184
01:11:37.439 --> 01:11:38.680
<v Speaker 5>And I'm Karen Stolsner.

1185
01:11:39.359 --> 01:11:43.039
<v Speaker 2>Today you heard an interview with paranormal researcher Alison Jordlin.

1186
01:11:43.399 --> 01:11:45.600
<v Speaker 2>You can find links to herd podcasts and research and

1187
01:11:45.640 --> 01:11:48.560
<v Speaker 2>our show notes at MonsterTalk dot org. I really do

1188
01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:51.560
<v Speaker 2>love Chicago. I've got some great friends there, and there's

1189
01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:54.600
<v Speaker 2>such great architecture and great food. There's so much to

1190
01:11:54.680 --> 01:11:57.479
<v Speaker 2>do and see. There's museums, there's clubs.

1191
01:11:58.439 --> 01:11:59.760
<v Speaker 4>It's my kind of town.

1192
01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:04.720
<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk's an official podcast of Skeptic Magazine. The opinions

1193
01:12:04.760 --> 01:12:07.560
<v Speaker 2>expressed on this show are those of ourselves and our guests,

1194
01:12:07.640 --> 01:12:10.520
<v Speaker 2>and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Skeptic Magazine

1195
01:12:10.600 --> 01:12:13.880
<v Speaker 2>or the Skeptic Society. We hope you've enjoyed this episode

1196
01:12:13.880 --> 01:12:16.680
<v Speaker 2>of Monster Talk. Each episode. We strive to bring you

1197
01:12:16.760 --> 01:12:19.239
<v Speaker 2>the best in Monster related content with a focus on

1198
01:12:19.279 --> 01:12:23.760
<v Speaker 2>bringing scientific skepticism into the conversation. If you enjoy Monster Talk,

1199
01:12:23.960 --> 01:12:26.399
<v Speaker 2>We now have a variety of ways to support the show,

1200
01:12:26.880 --> 01:12:30.119
<v Speaker 2>all with convenient links at monster talk dot org, forge

1201
01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:35.560
<v Speaker 2>slash support. That's monster talk dot org forge slash support. There,

1202
01:12:35.600 --> 01:12:37.680
<v Speaker 2>we have links to our Patreon pages as well as

1203
01:12:37.680 --> 01:12:40.479
<v Speaker 2>a donation button. A great way to support the show

1204
01:12:40.520 --> 01:12:43.119
<v Speaker 2>is to buy us books from our Amazon Monster Talk

1205
01:12:43.239 --> 01:12:46.880
<v Speaker 2>wish list, which directly helps us with our research. We

1206
01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:49.520
<v Speaker 2>love usbooks very much, so don't feel compelled to buy

1207
01:12:49.560 --> 01:12:51.800
<v Speaker 2>new ones, and we love Kindle and we can share

1208
01:12:51.800 --> 01:12:55.840
<v Speaker 2>our digital library with each other. Finally, without spending any

1209
01:12:55.840 --> 01:12:57.760
<v Speaker 2>money at all, you can support us by leaving a

1210
01:12:57.800 --> 01:13:01.279
<v Speaker 2>positive review at iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

1211
01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Positive reviews help keep us visible in iTunes, which is

1212
01:13:04.920 --> 01:13:07.079
<v Speaker 2>a great way to help us find you listeners, and

1213
01:13:07.159 --> 01:13:10.520
<v Speaker 2>please share our show on your favorite social media platforms.

1214
01:13:11.399 --> 01:13:15.439
<v Speaker 2>Monster Talk theme music is by Pete Stealing Monkeys. As always,

1215
01:13:15.680 --> 01:13:17.119
<v Speaker 2>thanks so much for listening.

1216
01:13:58.319 --> 01:14:00.800
<v Speaker 6>Did you know that you can now subscribe to Skeptic

1217
01:14:00.840 --> 01:14:05.319
<v Speaker 6>Magazine digitally? Just grab our free Skeptic Magazine app currently

1218
01:14:05.359 --> 01:14:10.239
<v Speaker 6>compatible with iOS, Android, PC, mac, Kindlefire, Kindlefire HD, and

1219
01:14:10.359 --> 01:14:14.720
<v Speaker 6>BlackBerry Playbook. Head over to skeptic dot com, slash magazine

1220
01:14:14.720 --> 01:14:17.880
<v Speaker 6>slash app to find out more and download more of

1221
01:14:17.920 --> 01:14:19.840
<v Speaker 6>your favorite Skeptic content.

1222
01:14:20.319 --> 01:14:22.520
<v Speaker 3>Want to get Capon. Here's how you get him.

1223
01:14:22.720 --> 01:14:25.359
<v Speaker 5>He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He sends

1224
01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:26.319
<v Speaker 5>one of yours to the hospital.

1225
01:14:26.359 --> 01:14:28.199
<v Speaker 3>You say him on A history of the mark. That's

1226
01:14:28.479 --> 01:14:29.199
<v Speaker 3>the shackle.

1227
01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:30.960
<v Speaker 4>That's how you get Copon.