Speaker 1: You're listening to an air Wave Media podcast.
Speaker 2: The Windy City, The Second City, Chai Town, Chicago Land.
Speaker 2: It's got many names, and many many wonderful people, and
Speaker 2: many many wonderful places to eat. It's got many legends,
Speaker 2: many stories of ghosts and strange lore. But since the
Speaker 2: middle of last year, people have been alleging it's got
Speaker 2: a new resident. A winged humanoid quite similar in description
Speaker 2: to the Mothman of Point Pleasant, West Virginia. Is the
Speaker 2: Great City of Chicago being invaded by a mysterious flying
Speaker 2: creature that defy science and logic.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned, Okay, it's actually quite unlike anything we've ever
Speaker 1: seen before.
Speaker 3: A giant, hairy creature park apes and part masts in Larkness,
Speaker 3: a twenty four mile long bottomless lake in the highlands
Speaker 3: of Scotland, get a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monstertal.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm
Speaker 2: Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner. I never feel like
Speaker 2: I have to apologize for being skeptical. For me, true
Speaker 2: skepticism is about looking for evidence and testable explanations and
Speaker 2: trying to use critical thinking when examining issues. This is
Speaker 2: certainly not limited to the paranormal, but I hope it's
Speaker 2: clear by now that Karen and I and many of
Speaker 2: you awesome monster Talk listeners are able to simultaneously enjoy
Speaker 2: these kind of stories and also to think critically about
Speaker 2: whether or not they're true. Often it's impossible to find
Speaker 2: out if something really happened, but you can check out
Speaker 2: stories to see if there's any obvious discrepancies between what
Speaker 2: was reported and what really happened. Skeptical paranormal investigations are
Speaker 2: a lot like detective work. Did the witnesses report a
Speaker 2: bright full moon, but according to the calendar it was
Speaker 2: really rainy with a new moon. Did the story involve
Speaker 2: a quiet, eerie walk down a lonely street, only at
Speaker 2: the time there was a huge concert and the sidewalks
Speaker 2: would have been filled with potential witnesses. These don't always
Speaker 2: disprove strange stories, but checking out the real landscape and
Speaker 2: circumstances around the story can often reveal details which hint
Speaker 2: at embellishment, mistake and identification, or even outright hoaxes. There
Speaker 2: are plenty of reasons to be highly skeptical of the
Speaker 2: idea of a man sized winged humanoid flying around Chicago.
Speaker 2: For accounts of these creatures that describe a winged humanoid,
Speaker 2: we have the problem that from a scientific perspective, biology
Speaker 2: on Earth doesn't support any evolutionary basis for a six
Speaker 2: limbed humanoid capable of flight. Birds of this size wouldn't
Speaker 2: have six limbs. We've talked about the four limb biological
Speaker 2: model before.
Speaker 4: These are called tetrapods.
Speaker 2: I recommend you check out Tetrapod Zoology podcast by Darren
Speaker 2: Nash at tetzoo dot com. Earth is also home to
Speaker 2: flying six limbed creatures, but we call them insects, and
Speaker 2: they're not the size of humans. But just because something
Speaker 2: doesn't fit within the known patterns of biology doesn't mean
Speaker 2: it shouldn't be researched. It just suggests there might be
Speaker 2: other factors at play, such as mysidentification are sadly hoaxing,
Speaker 2: and even though the very least likely explanation is that
Speaker 2: an unknown human sized animal is out there flying around
Speaker 2: the skies of Chicago, there's no harm in looking. In fact,
Speaker 2: there might be something to be gained as these stories
Speaker 2: of what folks are calling the Chicago mothman or the
Speaker 2: Chicago owlman and a few other variants of winged humanoid
Speaker 2: or beginning to pile up. It's wise to be skeptical
Speaker 2: and to check out these claims. Our guests in this
Speaker 2: episode is Alison Jordlin, and I'm linking to a YouTube
Speaker 2: playlist where she's done hours and hours of footwork to
Speaker 2: actually visit all the locations. We're more than sixty reports
Speaker 2: of this creature been pinpointed. I hope you'll enjoy this show,
Speaker 2: and I hope you'll check out the show notes, where
Speaker 2: we link to many of these reports and to her videos.
Speaker 2: These stories are coming from multiple witnesses, but the prime
Speaker 2: source for the accounts is Lone Strickler's website Phantoms and Monsters.
Speaker 2: I've linked to his site and to his book on
Speaker 2: the topic. I did reach out to him, as we
Speaker 2: talk about in the episode, to see if he wanted
Speaker 2: to talk about his experiences collecting these tales, but he
Speaker 2: has declined to be interviewed. But we're not done with
Speaker 2: the topic of Mothman after this, so as always, keep
Speaker 2: watching the skies and your Monster Talk feed Monsteral. Okay,
Speaker 2: so welcome to Monster Talk, Alison Jordlin. Alison reached out
Speaker 2: to me through Facebook to talk about the Chicago mothman sightings,
Speaker 2: and I invited her on the show because of some
Speaker 2: of the extensive work she's done looking into this matter.
Speaker 2: But I don't think most of our listeners are probably
Speaker 2: I know you or your work. Would you like to
Speaker 2: give an introduction for who you are and how you
Speaker 2: got involved with this sort of topic.
Speaker 1: Sure? Well, I've always been interested in the essential questions,
Speaker 1: as many of us are, you know, whether you class
Speaker 1: yourself as a skeptic or a believer. You know, I
Speaker 1: think we're all interested in, you know, what happens after death?
Speaker 1: And you know, are we alone? All those great questions,
Speaker 1: you know, they always really sucked me in, and so
Speaker 1: I decided, you know that I get involved in researching
Speaker 1: the paranormal. And I guess my first official foray into
Speaker 1: it is I run Milwaukee ghosts dot com, which is
Speaker 1: a clearinghouse for Midwestern ghost stories and other strange tales.
Speaker 1: And I started the first Hunted History tour in Milwaukee
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight. And I just did that
Speaker 1: because you know, I love Milwaukee and I wanted to
Speaker 1: celebrate the folk lore or in the history like so
Speaker 1: many other cities do. They're they're really proud of their history.
Speaker 1: And uh so that's that's where I started. But you know,
Speaker 1: much more, I'm you know, much more than just ghost
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm interested in any anything strange, Uh that
Speaker 1: might give me some answers to those questions, those essential
Speaker 1: questions that we all face.
Speaker 5: Right, Well, we're interested in all those topics as well, everything, right,
Speaker 5: And it seems sorry, oh, I was.
Speaker 1: Just gonna say so. Uh. You know, after uh starting
Speaker 1: the Haunted History Tour here in Milwaukee, I got a
Speaker 1: lot of opportunities to investigate haunted places, and so I
Speaker 1: started working with paranormal investigative groups. And you know, even
Speaker 1: before that, I mean, anytime I go on vacation, it's
Speaker 1: all haunted or you know UFO or you know Bigfoot,
Speaker 1: any of those weird regional localis. You know, if we're
Speaker 1: going on vacation in that area, you know, I am
Speaker 1: out there looking for the weird. So, you know, now
Speaker 1: I'm kind of doing it in you know, a more
Speaker 1: public forum.
Speaker 5: We les Sunds like us too. I think I can't
Speaker 5: tell you how many trips I've organized just on the
Speaker 5: basis of going to visit purportedly haunted locations. But it
Speaker 5: seems like you've been doing this for a little while,
Speaker 5: but we've got you on the show to specifically talk
Speaker 5: about the Chicago Mothman. So how did you develop an
Speaker 5: interest in the Chicago Moffman claims?
Speaker 1: Well, you know, if I started to see that, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, all these claims are coming forward in Chicago.
Speaker 1: If I'm really a Fordian investigator, if I'm really interested
Speaker 1: in the paranormal, then hey, you know, I know I'm
Speaker 1: in Milwaukee, but Chicago is not that far away. It's
Speaker 1: close enough that any any Fordian researcher should want to
Speaker 1: get out there, boots on the ground and take a
Speaker 1: look for themselves. Don't just you know, sit there in
Speaker 1: the armchair and read all these extraordinary accounts. You know, hey,
Speaker 1: maybe get out there and see what's really going on.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know, this is monster talk, and
Speaker 1: I love monsters. I have to just admit that. And
Speaker 1: if there's any chance that I could come close or
Speaker 1: you know, rub shoulders with a monster, I'm going to
Speaker 1: get out there and do it. And that's that's why
Speaker 1: I became interested. I'm like, wow, you know, like all
Speaker 1: these sightings, like every week there seems to be a
Speaker 1: new sighting. And you know, right now we are up
Speaker 1: to sixty seven sightings and so I've been to I've
Speaker 1: been to sixty of them and then so there's a
Speaker 1: few that have occurred this year which I'm going to
Speaker 1: get out there again and make sure that I document
Speaker 1: all the locations because I think anytime extraordinary claims are made,
Speaker 1: you want to get as much information as you can.
Speaker 1: And nothing does that like boots on the ground.
Speaker 4: Wow, sixty seven.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you've got your finger on the pulse because we
Speaker 5: thought it was sixty three.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well I just checked again this morning and there
Speaker 1: were actually four which if you watch my YouTube videos
Speaker 1: on YouTube dot com slash Mothman, you'll you'll see that
Speaker 1: some of them have been removed and no explanation was given.
Speaker 1: I'm working from Lon Strickler's Chicago Phantom Sightings map and
Speaker 1: it's a Google map, and so I've actually been to
Speaker 1: a few more that have actually been removed, and I
Speaker 1: have about ten that I need to go out and
Speaker 1: investigate in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2: Now you know, there's you've got a playlist that connects
Speaker 2: all these and yeah, the so for people who use
Speaker 2: you know, you r L short nurse.
Speaker 4: There's bit dot l y. People call it bitley.
Speaker 2: I made a bitly link for it for Chicago Mothman
Speaker 2: with a C capitalized and the M capitalized.
Speaker 4: So if you just go to bit dot l y.
Speaker 2: Forward slash capital C, Chicago capital M Mothman, it'll take
Speaker 2: you right to the playlist.
Speaker 1: Well, great, thank you very much.
Speaker 4: Problem We'll put a link of that in the show
Speaker 4: notes as well.
Speaker 2: So, but that's I mean, you're spending a good bit
Speaker 2: of time out there and I are you doing this
Speaker 2: as a live interactive feed what what's your methodology?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 1: Because yeah, So what I'm doing is I will I
Speaker 1: go out to the scene and I record a Facebook
Speaker 1: Live video and it goes out to all my friends
Speaker 1: and followers, and then I can take some of their
Speaker 1: questions at if they occur at the location. So you know,
Speaker 1: it's just trying to be open source, trying to you know,
Speaker 1: reach out to people. So that's where I first will
Speaker 1: put the video is on Facebook Live. That's where I
Speaker 1: record it, and then I take the video and just
Speaker 1: put it up on YouTube after that.
Speaker 4: That's neat I've ever used Facebook Live.
Speaker 2: Are you getting several people involved, like actively asking questions
Speaker 2: most of the time, or how does that work?
Speaker 1: Well, it depends, because you know, I don't have certain
Speaker 1: times when people know that I'm going to be out.
Speaker 1: It's you know, I'm a fourth grade teacher, so it's
Speaker 1: whenever I have a free weekend to drive out to Chicago,
Speaker 1: then it occurs. So you know, I can't I can't
Speaker 1: have you know, I can't give people an advanced warning
Speaker 1: that I'm going to be out hunting matha. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, we do get a fair amount of
Speaker 1: people watching the videos, and that's partly because of the
Speaker 1: way Facebook treats Facebook Live. They really give it prominence
Speaker 1: when you go live on Facebook, so a lot of
Speaker 1: people see it.
Speaker 4: How far of a drive this time for you?
Speaker 1: It's well, it depends, you know, it's about two hours generally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: each way.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's a commitment to checking these places out. Do
Speaker 2: you stop and get some deep dish pizza?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, certainly there's benefits to going to Chicago, of course,
Speaker 1: and I take advantage of them whenever I can. But yeah,
Speaker 1: like some sometimes it's like, oh man, not like I'm
Speaker 1: gonna get ten done. You know, I'm gonna get ten
Speaker 1: done this Saturday right, and I just go out there
Speaker 1: and and you know, I'm eating bagels in the car
Speaker 1: and throwing papers around. It's, you know, my trashmobile. But
Speaker 1: you know, cause it's really it really is something that's
Speaker 1: important to me. And I'm I'm kind I kind of
Speaker 1: wonder why more people don't do it. You know, if
Speaker 1: the information is freely available about what's been reported, let's
Speaker 1: get out there and see if we can and dot
Speaker 1: some eyes and cross some teas. And if we can't,
Speaker 1: that's still going to teach us something. I mean, all right,
Speaker 1: I really wanted Mothman to jump out of the bushes,
Speaker 1: you know, just to get a little nibble or something, right, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Karen and I've talked a little bit about this
Speaker 2: because I mean, what you're doing fits into a couple
Speaker 2: of well several different sort of categories of activity. You're,
Speaker 2: on the one hand, you're doing investigation, but you're also
Speaker 2: doing what sort of is being called dark tourism these days, right.
Speaker 5: Like religion tripping and legend tripping.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's several names for it.
Speaker 2: But and I've done it too, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: I've talked a few times, and I'm probably going to
Speaker 2: do an art Bill sort of retrospective tribute slash discussion episode.
Speaker 2: And that all started for me back in a road
Speaker 2: trip I took in nineteen ninety seven to sort of
Speaker 2: go see some of the real UFO sites that you know,
Speaker 2: I had been looking into for years. But it's the
Speaker 2: imperative to go out there and see for yourself. It's
Speaker 2: not necessarily whether you're going to see Mothman. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: lets you actually what did this place look like, What
Speaker 2: would it have been like at night? What would it
Speaker 2: have been like when the conditions were that, you know,
Speaker 2: are there discrepancies between the alleged story and what I'm
Speaker 2: actually seeing on the ground that I think it's a
Speaker 2: really important thing to go check out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just want to find something, you know,
Speaker 1: I want to just find an answer, and I'm not
Speaker 1: wedded to it has to be a monster, you know.
Speaker 1: Years back, I went to a paranormal conference and at
Speaker 1: the end of the conference on that Sunday, everybody was
Speaker 1: just meeting to say goodbye, and then somebody ran in
Speaker 1: and they were like, oh my god, I saw this
Speaker 1: creature outside. It's huge, and they had a picture of
Speaker 1: it that they projected on the big screen that all
Speaker 1: the speakers had been using and I'm like, that thing
Speaker 1: looks like Ayena. And my husband and I had a
Speaker 1: little bit of time to you know, go out and
Speaker 1: you know before we had to rush home, and he's like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you wanna do you want to just you know,
Speaker 1: drive around see if we can find it, And I'm
Speaker 1: like yeah, And we found it, but it was a
Speaker 1: mainjy fox and it was really sad that it wasn't
Speaker 1: this huge hyenail like creature that it appeared to be
Speaker 1: in the picture. But that was really something that that
Speaker 1: taught me an important lesson, which is photos can be
Speaker 1: really deceiving. And you know, we were able to get
Speaker 1: video footage follow this poor little guy around, but then
Speaker 1: when we came back to the conference, there were a
Speaker 1: few people that were still there and we were like, oh,
Speaker 1: we got footage, and they were like really excited, but
Speaker 1: when they saw you know what it really was, they
Speaker 1: were almost mad. And I was disappointed by that reaction
Speaker 1: because I was like, look, we went out there and
Speaker 1: we followed the lead, and I just felt like, you know, okay,
Speaker 1: it's not a monster. I wanted to be a monster too,
Speaker 1: but we got something and I just I just think
Speaker 1: that more people need to get out there and just
Speaker 1: look for their own answers. And I think as far
Speaker 1: as the paranormal goes, you know, I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: extraordinary things don't happen. I have had some extraordinary experiences
Speaker 1: in my life and seeing some things that here too.
Speaker 1: Here to four. You know, I cannot explain by any
Speaker 1: any means that that we currently know. So I know
Speaker 1: those things exist, but I just wonder, you know, we
Speaker 1: can get out there and we can see, you know,
Speaker 1: what is going on and and learn from that no
Speaker 1: matter what. And you know, I I think in the paranormal,
Speaker 1: these experiences that you have are very personal. You might
Speaker 1: not be able to repeat them in the lab. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they don't happen. But I think we got
Speaker 1: to separate the wheat from the chaff. And you know,
Speaker 1: that's what I'm most interested in doing. And that's why
Speaker 1: I'm still talking about the Chicago moth Man.
Speaker 5: Neat speaking, which can you tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: a bit about some of the major sightings of the
Speaker 5: Chicago Moffman, Like, what is it the people are describing?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there was one in the summer of twenty
Speaker 1: seventeen where a photo was captured, and so I was
Speaker 1: really excited about that one that was in Melrose Park, Illinois.
Speaker 1: So what's been reported is pretty similar, although there are
Speaker 1: some sightings that have been you know, lumped in together,
Speaker 1: but where it's like, hey, that sounds more like a UFO,
Speaker 1: or hey, that was you know, some kind of bug creature.
Speaker 1: But what's been described as like a seven or eight
Speaker 1: foot tall, dark figure, usually thin, and has wings that
Speaker 1: can be winked to a wingspan of about ten feet,
Speaker 1: and can have like a crest on the head, like
Speaker 1: almost like a pointed head, and of course the red
Speaker 1: glowing eyes. So that's what's been reported for the most part.
Speaker 1: And the Melrose Park sighting that was compelling because it
Speaker 1: had a photo. But when I went to that site,
Speaker 1: this was a turning point for me because I started
Speaker 1: to see that things weren't lining up, that they had
Speaker 1: a photo that went with the sighting. So in this location,
Speaker 1: Winston Plaza in the Melrose Park area of Chicago, Land
Speaker 1: is a strip mall, there's no other way to say it.
Speaker 1: And this woman had been in this woman who reported
Speaker 1: the sighting had been in the Best Buy and just
Speaker 1: came out of the best Buy, she said, and then this,
Speaker 1: you know, huge creature, you know, seven eight foot that's huge,
Speaker 1: ten foot wingspring span. I mean, if it's close enough
Speaker 1: where it is as she reported, whooping down in front
Speaker 1: of you, you know that's gonna be huge. And so
Speaker 1: she reported that. You know, she came out of the
Speaker 1: best Buy, this thing swooped down in front of her
Speaker 1: in daylight, and then she snapped a photo. She was
Speaker 1: able to fumble in her purse, you know, grab her
Speaker 1: phone and snap a photo in time before it it
Speaker 1: flew out of eyesight. Now, so I went there, and
Speaker 1: you know, I'm disappointed when I go to locations and
Speaker 1: it's not creepy enough for me, I gotta say. But
Speaker 1: it was like just your regular runther, the most stripmall
Speaker 1: and so busy. That's that's another thing that that became
Speaker 1: clear to me as I researched these cases, you know,
Speaker 1: sixty some cases. Wow. But why aren't there more reports
Speaker 1: is my question? Because those areas where the Mossman has
Speaker 1: been reported for the most part, are very very busy.
Speaker 1: In parking lot there. You know, I did stay there
Speaker 1: for quite a while because what I wanted to do
Speaker 1: is reframe the shot so I could find the exact
Speaker 1: area of the parking lot where the witness took it.
Speaker 1: And so just the cars coming at you, I mean,
Speaker 1: it was so overrun with people. So that's what started
Speaker 1: to you know, turn my mind to see that, you know,
Speaker 1: other than just the report of, you know, this extraordinary creature,
Speaker 1: it's implausible that, you know, if it is so big,
Speaker 1: more people wouldn't have reported it. So I spent a
Speaker 1: long time in that parking lot, and I was able
Speaker 1: to frame up the shot and saw that it was
Speaker 1: really far away from the best Buy, you know, like
Speaker 1: mid parking lot, So even that didn't match up with
Speaker 1: the witness report of coming right out of the bus
Speaker 1: by there it is here I'm taking the photo. You know,
Speaker 1: it took like a minute or two to get from
Speaker 1: the best Buy, you know, all all way to where
Speaker 1: the shot was taken. The other thing, of course, I
Speaker 1: noticed is Melrose Park is right in the pathway of
Speaker 1: O'Hare Airport, one of the busiest airports in the world,
Speaker 1: and as I was hanging out there, I saw dozens
Speaker 1: of planes, and so then I took a photo as
Speaker 1: well of the planes up in the air. And when
Speaker 1: you compare it with the blurry photo that's purportedly mothman.
Speaker 1: You can clearly see the distinctive shape of an airliner.
Speaker 1: And I was like, why isn't anyone else saying this?
Speaker 1: It's I mean, why do reports like that just stay
Speaker 1: out there and they're not questioned? This really bothered me.
Speaker 1: And I know that not all paranormal enthusiasts and researchers
Speaker 1: are that lacks of daisical about it. But you know,
Speaker 1: I think when you start seeing that the reports you know,
Speaker 1: don't match up, you know, that's your alert to hey,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe we need to do something about this
Speaker 1: as the paranormal community and call out when things don't
Speaker 1: match up, because if we're really interested in the essential questions,
Speaker 1: and these things that are paranormal are so hard to
Speaker 1: quantify and qualify, you know, there's just so vague and
Speaker 1: and so you know, so so hard to capture. You know,
Speaker 1: you can't waste your time on something that seems to
Speaker 1: be obviously a hoax or or somebody just fooling around
Speaker 1: with you, uh, you know, making a bogus report.
Speaker 4: Well yeah, so wow, you touched on a lot.
Speaker 2: Of stuff there in that In that that that section
Speaker 2: of your conversation because one of the things I wanted
Speaker 2: to talk about was the source for this material. A
Speaker 2: lot of this is coming from Lown Strictler's Fantoms and
Speaker 2: Monsters website, and he's sort of you mentioned the idea
Speaker 2: of a clearinghouse, he's sorts as a clearinghouse, and he's
Speaker 2: he's seeking out sightings. So he's asking for people if
Speaker 2: you've seen something, say something basically related to this. And
Speaker 2: I've seen this reported as a sort of a flap
Speaker 2: of mothman sightings or you know, you know, as a lot.
Speaker 2: But sixty three sightings in Chicago, even though it sounds
Speaker 2: like a lot, is not a lot, because there's about
Speaker 2: three million people living in Chicago, and then in the
Speaker 2: metro area there's like ten million people in the surrounding area,
Speaker 2: and sixty three people reporting something strange is less than insignificant.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just nothing, right.
Speaker 2: I mean, even if they're absolutely sincere, it doesn't really
Speaker 2: represent a huge number of sightings. But I I'm it's
Speaker 2: the way he's gathering that information. And you know, we'll
Speaker 2: probably reach out to Laan and see if he wants
Speaker 2: to talk to us as well. But these you know,
Speaker 2: if everybody is sincere about what they're seeing, I still
Speaker 2: have a lot of questions because it's a really, really
Speaker 2: populated city, and not only is it populated, but it's
Speaker 2: populated twenty four hours a day. Yeah, I mean Atlanta.
Speaker 2: I'm from the Atlanta area, and Atlanta shuts down at night.
Speaker 2: But over the past couple of years, I spent a
Speaker 2: lot of time in Chicago for work.
Speaker 4: First of all, let me just say I love that
Speaker 4: city a lot.
Speaker 2: It is a great I know it gets a bad
Speaker 2: reputation as being like a murder capital, but it really
Speaker 2: is a wonderful place where you can do twenty four
Speaker 2: hours a day, you can find something to do. There
Speaker 2: are people in the street. I never had a bad experience.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was just great.
Speaker 4: I love that place, and it's got so much history.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and I'm a fatigue person who went to
Speaker 1: some of the roughest neighborhoods and never had a problem.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not saying don't be cautious, you know,
Speaker 1: but you know, any anywhere Mothman was cited, I went,
Speaker 1: and you know, some so some of these areas are
Speaker 1: are notorious, but you know, I think I think the
Speaker 1: murder capital idea has been overblown. You're not going to
Speaker 1: be acted on the street. If I wasn't, you'll probably
Speaker 1: be fine.
Speaker 2: No, that's the It goes back to that high number
Speaker 2: of murders, and then you have to look at per capital,
Speaker 2: you know, for the population. Obviously, every murder is a
Speaker 2: tragedy for someone. But but uh, I just these Mothmann slidings,
Speaker 2: I just don't know how significant they are. And I
Speaker 2: just I mean, when you think about like Chicago has
Speaker 2: such a haunted history, my gosh, there's so many ghost
Speaker 2: stories around Chicago and legends and so many interesting Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've always wanted to check out the resurrection Mary stories.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And one of my inspirations for my Haunted
Speaker 1: History tour was Richard Richard Crowe, who we lost just
Speaker 1: a few years ago, but he started the whole Haunted
Speaker 1: history tour business in the US in nineteen seventy three,
Speaker 1: and that's right around the time they were starting the
Speaker 1: Haunted tours of London as well. So, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three, you know, that's that's a long time.
Speaker 1: But there's just such extraordinary stories from every city. Now,
Speaker 1: as you say, Blake, some of those areas are just
Speaker 1: so overrun with people night and day because you know,
Speaker 1: as I said, you know, when I was doing my
Speaker 1: MOTHMN videos, I would usually take like a whole day
Speaker 1: and then stay out really late to try to get
Speaker 1: in as many of the locations as I could. And
Speaker 1: even you know late at night, there's people on the
Speaker 1: street everywhere. So yeah, my question is why why haven't
Speaker 1: more people seen this thing if it is so huge?
Speaker 1: And my other issue is out when there's obvious there's
Speaker 1: obvious problems with an account, why is this not addressed?
Speaker 1: Because like I was talking about with the Melrose Park
Speaker 1: Melrose Park photo, you know, people just take it on
Speaker 1: face value. Now, there was there were a couple of
Speaker 1: other reports from from a rougher neighborhood in Chicago. Uh,
Speaker 1: and I didn't realize that, Oh, there's two reports from
Speaker 1: that same corner. So I actually went back there twice
Speaker 1: on a couple of different occasions. Now, one of the
Speaker 1: reports said that it was from a police officer, and
Speaker 1: that police officer said he filed a police report, and
Speaker 1: so I was really excited about that because if there
Speaker 1: indeed was a police report, then you know that's something
Speaker 1: we can Act on that's something we can get, and
Speaker 1: so I was really looking forward to talking to Alan
Speaker 1: and the other members of the Chicago Phantom Task Force,
Speaker 1: of which I was a member for a while until
Speaker 1: I started waxing skeptical uh and was kicked out. But
Speaker 1: so my my question to them was like, Hey, who's
Speaker 1: followed up on this, who has asked for the report?
Speaker 1: And what was the response, because you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly how it works in Chicago. I've gotten police
Speaker 1: reports here in the Milwaukee area. UH, and I know
Speaker 1: I know from freedom of information uh, freedom of Information
Speaker 1: Act requests that I've done that there. Wow, there's there's
Speaker 1: like a certain way you have to approach it to
Speaker 1: get the information. So that's why I wanted somebody to
Speaker 1: come forward to me and tell me, well, who did
Speaker 1: you approach what happened, so I could follow up so
Speaker 1: that we could get this thing. And unfortunately no one
Speaker 1: and then the group could get back to me. Another
Speaker 1: person in the group that I still maintained contact with
Speaker 1: told me that it was known that there was no
Speaker 1: police report. It was just like widely known among the
Speaker 1: group members that you know that part of the report
Speaker 1: was bogus. Well, My question is, if someone is going
Speaker 1: to tell you they filed a police report or even
Speaker 1: state that they're a police officer, and you can't track
Speaker 1: that down and verify it, you know, why would you,
Speaker 1: Why would you listen to any of the rest of
Speaker 1: the account. It's got to be bogus. So I went
Speaker 1: through my own sources to see if I could track
Speaker 1: down that police report, and never was able to find
Speaker 1: a report that matched that description. Was able to find
Speaker 1: out about other reports that happened that day, but it
Speaker 1: looks like that report does not exist. And again, why
Speaker 1: why isn't that report suspect? Then? And in Lone Strickler's
Speaker 1: book about the Chicago moths Man sightings, he even talks
Speaker 1: about that case in particular, and his argument is, well,
Speaker 1: anybody that's you know, willing to lay down their life for,
Speaker 1: you know, the people in Chicago, you know, I'm going
Speaker 1: to believe what he says. And I'm like, well, that's
Speaker 1: great if that person's really a police officer, right, but
Speaker 1: how do we know that this person isn't just opposer
Speaker 1: If you cannot get access to a report that he
Speaker 1: says he filed, that yeah, that.
Speaker 4: Actually, that's a pretty common thing.
Speaker 2: In historical ghost cases too, where people say we follow
Speaker 2: a police report or also there was a Pinkerton investigation
Speaker 2: or some other well known detective agency and investigated, and
Speaker 2: then you never can find any evidence that that was
Speaker 2: actually true. So yeah, it's a way of adding veracity
Speaker 2: to the report without actually having to do anything. It's
Speaker 2: like it instantly gives a credibility, except that maybe it's
Speaker 2: not true.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because I spoke, I'm going to look into it.
Speaker 1: Right exactly well, And you know, my experience from doing
Speaker 1: historical research for my Haunted History tour is, you know,
Speaker 1: going the other way, where I'm looking back into any
Speaker 1: documentation I can find and seeing what weird stuff pops up,
Speaker 1: and that can be really compelling. Although, of course, in
Speaker 1: Milwaukee they trashed all the historical police reports back in
Speaker 1: the seventies, so I can't go there for at least
Speaker 1: historical police reports. So sad, because when you find something
Speaker 1: in the newspaper, you want to be able to track
Speaker 1: it down. You know. I have been able to use
Speaker 1: city directories and other means to verify parts of different
Speaker 1: accounts in the stories that I use in my Haunted
Speaker 1: History tours and presentations. But yeah, I would love to
Speaker 1: have those police reports to see, you know, if there's
Speaker 1: anything in there. Can you imagine some of the cool
Speaker 1: stuff you might find?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yoh.
Speaker 2: I ran into the same thing when I did my
Speaker 2: Watertown ghost research for a ghost photo.
Speaker 4: The National Archives had destroyed.
Speaker 2: They had I don't know how many maritime records from
Speaker 2: non military ships, just log books, but I'm sure they
Speaker 2: had a ton of interesting information in them, and they
Speaker 2: didn't have rooms, so they got rid of them. And
Speaker 2: then you know, within ten years, microfish and digitization would
Speaker 2: have taken care of the space issue, but you know
Speaker 2: now it's gone forever, right shame.
Speaker 1: And one of the things too, about you know, verifying
Speaker 1: accounts that I think is really important that you know
Speaker 1: I told other investigators is hey, hey, guys, not don't
Speaker 1: take this wrong, because we're all friends here, but I
Speaker 1: have said, look, you know there are skeptics, and you
Speaker 1: know some of them are really dogmatic. You know, some
Speaker 1: of them, I would say, are really cynics, not truly skeptical.
Speaker 1: And if you are going to do paranormal research, you
Speaker 1: have to make sure that everything that you can verify
Speaker 1: is verifiable or you know, is verified. Anything verifiable is verified.
Speaker 1: You know, you can't just take what people tell you.
Speaker 1: You know, it's great to have eyewitness testimony, but that
Speaker 1: can't be the only resource that you use. You know,
Speaker 1: you have to find things that can back it up.
Speaker 1: And if they don't back it up, you have to
Speaker 1: say so. And I said, you know, this is how
Speaker 1: you know, some paranormal enthusiasts have been duped in the
Speaker 1: in the past, like with James Randy and others who
Speaker 1: have trapped people in you know, to show the laxness, lackness,
Speaker 1: laxness sor I can say it of their so called investigation.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think if you really want to
Speaker 1: investigate the paranormal, you've got to be able to have
Speaker 1: boots on the ground. You've got to be able to
Speaker 1: actually go to the places and you know, see what
Speaker 1: you can see. So what I started uncovering with the
Speaker 1: Chicago mouth Man case is more and more inconsistencies. And
Speaker 1: we can talk about some more of those if you'd like.
Speaker 5: Sure, Sure, if you want to tell us about some
Speaker 5: of this.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, one person that has helped me in my
Speaker 1: investigations is Sam Moronto. He's actually the he's the Illinois
Speaker 1: director for the mutual UFO network. And so this guy
Speaker 1: is obviously interested in the field as well, very open
Speaker 1: to phenomena, and he he actually found that several of
Speaker 1: the cases that were first reported to move On, So
Speaker 1: not only Lon Strickler was taking the reports in the
Speaker 1: early days. Move On got a few of the reports
Speaker 1: as well, and Sam found that several of them were
Speaker 1: coming from the same IP addresses. And so again that's
Speaker 1: a red flag because if it's coming from the same IP,
Speaker 1: it's likely coming from the same person. And I mean,
Speaker 1: so you have a tech background, Blake, what can you
Speaker 1: add to that? Because I'm not a tech expert. I
Speaker 1: know that you are, but you know, if it's coming
Speaker 1: from the same IP, you know what does that tell you?
Speaker 2: Well, just for listeners who don't know about this, there's
Speaker 2: this idea of Internet protocol. So every item, every device
Speaker 2: on the Internet needs to have a unique address and
Speaker 2: that's called the Internet Protocol address.
Speaker 4: And so those there's a limited number of those.
Speaker 2: In fact, this we're using IP version four, which has
Speaker 2: a numerical number.
Speaker 4: I forget the number off the top of my head,
Speaker 4: but we've run out of those numbers.
Speaker 2: And so the way they've gotten around that is like
Speaker 2: a business might have one or two private addresses or
Speaker 2: like you know, personally owned addresses.
Speaker 4: But inside that.
Speaker 2: Space they have you can give out like you can
Speaker 2: duplicate addresses. Uh, and that's okay, but you could track
Speaker 2: back to a single user if they have a private
Speaker 2: IP address. So it's interesting that someone would have a
Speaker 2: private IP address because what they use is something called DHCP,
Speaker 2: which basically when you when you were with an i SP,
Speaker 2: they will give you a different address when you log
Speaker 2: on unless you pay for a static address. So for
Speaker 2: someone to have a static address and then use that
Speaker 2: to send different reports but from the same IP address
Speaker 2: suggests that they're well, it suggests one individual is sending
Speaker 2: multiple you know, claims. It's a it's a fairly reliable
Speaker 2: way of saying that someone's pulling a prank, is the
Speaker 2: bottom line.
Speaker 4: It's a good technical way of saying statistically, it's.
Speaker 2: Extremely unlikely that they would dynamically give out an IP
Speaker 2: address to random people and then those random people would
Speaker 2: get the same address and then use it. So I'd
Speaker 2: say that's a pretty reliable indicator that that the source
Speaker 2: of that information is one hoax or not multiple people
Speaker 2: within a company.
Speaker 4: For example.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so that that was that was Sam's conclusion
Speaker 1: as well. So you know, there are people in the
Speaker 1: paranormal that are digging into the nitty gritty and looking
Speaker 1: for those details because, as they say, the devil's in
Speaker 1: the details. And other things that Sam Moronto has pointed
Speaker 1: out to me is that sometimes quite often actually in
Speaker 1: the reports, the the witness will say it's a full
Speaker 1: moon or it was raining, And so every report where
Speaker 1: something verifiable was mentioned, he tracked those down and unfortunately
Speaker 1: found hey, there was no foam moon that night, or
Speaker 1: it wasn't raining or this these are these conditions existed
Speaker 1: which make it unlikely that this person was actually on
Speaker 1: a boat that day, you know, seeing seeing two mothman
Speaker 1: fly above them. You know, there there were things in
Speaker 1: the report that he could look look at and track down,
Speaker 1: and he did indeed do that. So there are investigators
Speaker 1: that are willing to put in, you know, that level
Speaker 1: of rigor, but there are others who you know, become
Speaker 1: really popular and then don't don't follow it up, just
Speaker 1: put anything out there. And my point too is hey,
Speaker 1: maybe something real is going on. I I I have
Speaker 1: taken accounts of you know, strange flying beings. I even
Speaker 1: know someone who saw something that appeared to be a
Speaker 1: pterodactyl the size of a piper cub plane. And so
Speaker 1: there are people who see extraordinary things, and perhaps there
Speaker 1: are a few of these Chicago accounts where something was
Speaker 1: seen that is unusual. But how can you find which reports, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, are are something that should be looked further
Speaker 1: into or should be fully investigated When you have you know,
Speaker 1: all of this nonsense cluttering up, uh, cluttering up you know,
Speaker 1: your database, It really muddies the water for investigators there.
Speaker 1: If something authentic and weird did go on, how would
Speaker 1: you know if you're going to take whatever report and
Speaker 1: just throw it up there as if it's truth.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you were saying earlier too that you mentioned one
Speaker 5: of the sightings was during the day, but it seems
Speaker 5: like a lot of the sightings are taking place at night.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are quite a few at night, but there
Speaker 1: are daytime sightings as well. It's it's pretty much all times,
Speaker 1: all hours of the night, all hours of the day.
Speaker 1: And you know, there there's many accounts which again you
Speaker 1: read them and it sounds like somebody's creative writing project.
Speaker 1: It sounds like a movie trope, and again that's a
Speaker 1: red flag. Another thing that Sam Moronto and other investigators
Speaker 1: did is is they looked at the report for commonalities
Speaker 1: in like verb use and phrasing and found that this
Speaker 1: really looks like it's the same person. But then a
Speaker 1: friend of mine was able to interview Lanz Strickler and
Speaker 1: he did reveal that after he takes the account, he
Speaker 1: will rewrite it to sound more interesting. And to me,
Speaker 1: that's a slippery slope. You just want to take the
Speaker 1: witness account as raw as you can get it, and
Speaker 1: you know, to quote them, not wrap a story around it.
Speaker 1: So again, you know, we don't have any proof there,
Speaker 1: But like I said, it's a slippery slope if you're
Speaker 1: trying to make something exciting, you know, I think it's
Speaker 1: exciting already. You know, if we're talking about you know,
Speaker 1: an eight foot tall flying humanoid, we don't need we
Speaker 1: don't need any embellishments on that. But yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: making sure that the environmental details match up or you know,
Speaker 1: the details of the locations matched up. There there was
Speaker 1: another account that talked about the mothman landing on a
Speaker 1: basketball hoop, and so I went around and around this
Speaker 1: account was one of the handful from twenty eleven. And
Speaker 1: so I went around and around just trying to find
Speaker 1: where is this park, And so finally I found it.
Speaker 1: It was like a little speck between two buildings. It
Speaker 1: was like a kiddy playground for toddlers, and so I
Speaker 1: did find it, but no basketball hoop. Now, you know,
Speaker 1: you might say, well, you know, maybe they had one
Speaker 1: there in twenty eleven, but again it was oriented towards
Speaker 1: this playground, towards toddlers, and there wasn't much room. So
Speaker 1: I find it implausible that there was a basketball hoop,
Speaker 1: or you know, even that it could have it could
Speaker 1: have held a mothman.
Speaker 5: Doesn't play basketball.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if memory serves, that's also the same one
Speaker 2: where they talked about a five story building in the
Speaker 2: area and there wasn't one as well.
Speaker 1: Indeed, interesting again, I went all around trying to find
Speaker 1: a five story building. There were no five story buildings, uh,
Speaker 1: in the location. They all, you know, had three stories
Speaker 1: as the limit. So I don't know what five story
Speaker 1: building they were talking about. So again, these things have
Speaker 1: to match up up. And you know, I know that
Speaker 1: these investigators, many of them are not in the area.
Speaker 1: You know, they're not from Chicago, they're not from Milwaukee,
Speaker 1: they're not from anywhere near. But when somebody like me
Speaker 1: is willing to go to every site, you know, I
Speaker 1: would expect that maybe you take some of that information
Speaker 1: that I'm able to glean seriously and use that for
Speaker 1: your investigation, even if it doesn't it doesn't complement what
Speaker 1: you're trying to do, you know, you know, maybe you're
Speaker 1: trying to make out that you know, something extraordinary is
Speaker 1: going on, uh, and there's just not enough evidence to
Speaker 1: support that, good point.
Speaker 2: Well, aside from the discrepancies in the between the reports
Speaker 2: and what's actually physically on the ground. And you mentioned
Speaker 2: that line may have rewritten some of these, I wonder
Speaker 2: if that.
Speaker 4: May be a factor.
Speaker 2: But but what about the description of the creature itself?
Speaker 2: Are they consistent or are we were talking about is
Speaker 2: there some variety in the descriptions of what they're seeing versus,
Speaker 2: for example, what was reported in Quite Pleasant in West Virginia.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're pretty consistent in that it was you know,
Speaker 1: thought to be you know, eight feet tall, some eight
Speaker 1: feet tall, ten foot wingspan. You see that a lot.
Speaker 1: And you also see the glowing red eyes in this
Speaker 1: feeling of dread. Those are our things which seem to
Speaker 1: be pretty consistent. But there are some reports, like there's
Speaker 1: one where where I actually did get to talk with
Speaker 1: a witness who the witness says that he saw, you know,
Speaker 1: something that had like a scallop bat looking wing. But
Speaker 1: when you talk to the witness, you're like, well, was
Speaker 1: this a humanoid? And he's like, you know, it really
Speaker 1: sounds like it's more of a UFO, and yet it
Speaker 1: was lumped in. And there's another report which describes like
Speaker 1: a green bug like creature jumping from a high building.
Speaker 1: So these things were just kind of rolled in there.
Speaker 1: There's also another report which talks about just seeing two
Speaker 1: red lights, and I guess they put that in there
Speaker 1: with the MOTHMN reports because of the glowing red eyes.
Speaker 1: But you know, the actual witness didn't report seeing a creature,
Speaker 1: just seeing you know, two floating red lights, which seemed mysterious, hmm.
Speaker 4: Interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I guess you can't you can't
Speaker 1: get away from recognizing that this all happened right before
Speaker 1: the December fifteenth, twenty seventeen anniversary of the Silverbridge collapse
Speaker 1: in Point Play, so it was the fiftieth anniversary of
Speaker 1: that bridge collapse, which is associated with the you know,
Speaker 1: most prominent Mothman sightings, which which occurred in Point Pleasant,
Speaker 1: West Virginia from nineteen sixty six to nineteen sixty seven
Speaker 1: and then culminated, uh in that bridge collapse, which which
Speaker 1: claimed over forty people, uh, you know, on their way
Speaker 1: back home from Christmas shopping. So it was a terrible tragedy.
Speaker 1: Whether or not it's connected to the you know, Mothman,
Speaker 1: of course, is up for debate. But you know, that
Speaker 1: is something, you know, a terrible tragedy that is in
Speaker 1: the minds of you know, people that are interested in this,
Speaker 1: and so it's it's just kind of curious that that
Speaker 1: this occurred just in time for that anniversary.
Speaker 5: Yeah, do you think it could be a do you
Speaker 5: think this could be a kind of transplant urban legend
Speaker 5: because of that?
Speaker 1: Boy, I mean, it's it's hard to know it. You know,
Speaker 1: you don't want to think that that anybody in the
Speaker 1: field is making anything up for for some purpose. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's really hard to say. I don't know why
Speaker 1: there have been as you say, Blake, you know, there
Speaker 1: should be more reports if it's being seen in such
Speaker 1: a populated city. But still, you know, to to be
Speaker 1: so dedicated to a hoax to keep calling in sightings
Speaker 1: and we're up to sixty seven now, I mean that's
Speaker 1: curious also in itself. You know, who is so devoted
Speaker 1: to this that you know, even even after the anniversary,
Speaker 1: you know, we had several sightings and we have again
Speaker 1: and twenty eighteen it looks like it might be the
Speaker 1: same as as twenty seventeen. Is is it just that
Speaker 1: you know, it's getting some press and more people are
Speaker 1: jumping on the bandwagon. It's really hard to tell, but
Speaker 1: because right, yeah, it's it's really hard to tell. But
Speaker 1: is is there some kind of creature in Chicago? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, we don't have much to go on because again,
Speaker 1: the witnesses you contact, uh, the witness contacts are going
Speaker 1: to so few people, and you're not allowed to verify
Speaker 1: those contexts. You know, if you try to reach out
Speaker 1: to witnesses, you get some backlash from other investigators and
Speaker 1: to me, you know, anytime you're investigating something, you know,
Speaker 1: I think you would welcome people coming in to try
Speaker 1: to you know, verify you know, what you're talking about,
Speaker 1: unless you know that it can't be verified.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this kind of ties in with like the idea
Speaker 2: of pious fraud, right, We've talked a little bit about
Speaker 2: that before, almosts or talk where people report miracles, and
Speaker 2: sometimes people fake miracles because they feel like, you know,
Speaker 2: this is the kind of miracle that would happen and
Speaker 2: maybe does happen, but we need more evidence because it's
Speaker 2: it's for the better, you know, it's for the greater good.
Speaker 4: It helps, you know, give people faith.
Speaker 5: Yeah, doesn't go back to Padre Pio and his sort
Speaker 5: of ah, some of the things that he's replicated to
Speaker 5: try and improve his original claims, to try and reinforce those.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's so many of those. But it happens in
Speaker 4: cryptozoology as well.
Speaker 2: It happens in ghost claims where people sometimes hoax, uh
Speaker 2: and sometimes I don't even bother to hoax, they just report,
Speaker 2: you don't even I mean, a hoax report is way
Speaker 2: easier than actually creating a fake like you know, in cryptozoology,
Speaker 2: a lot of times people will do things like bigfoot
Speaker 2: tracks or you know, fake videos, but I think in this.
Speaker 5: Case usually do that when they honestly believe in it,
Speaker 5: just trying to convince other people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really a curious thing.
Speaker 2: We probably should do another episode just discussing the sort
Speaker 2: of psychology of hoaxing.
Speaker 4: But it's a well known thing.
Speaker 2: But also people genuinely, you know, And I think maybe
Speaker 2: this is the word I'm looking for.
Speaker 4: It's the question of sincerity. When you're looking at rewritten
Speaker 4: reports online, it's really difficult to tell how sincere the
Speaker 4: reporters are. Yeah, the experiencers are, and and we all,
Speaker 4: I mean I think I don't know. I shouldn't say we.
Speaker 2: All, but a large majority of people would really sort
Speaker 2: of relish the idea of experiencing something fringey, paranormal, unusual, cryptozoological.
Speaker 4: It's it's novel.
Speaker 2: It reminds you there's something wonderful and strange in the world.
Speaker 2: It gives you a glimpse into, you know, these ideas
Speaker 2: beyond you know, our mundane, normal drudge of lives.
Speaker 1: You know, sure, yeah, get you beyond the mundane. And
Speaker 1: I can understand that. I mean, that's why anytime we
Speaker 1: go on vacation, I seek out those places where these
Speaker 1: reports have been made. But I think, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't I guess I don't understand the psychology of somebody
Speaker 1: that just wants to make something up, you know, and
Speaker 1: it's help self deceive to that level.
Speaker 2: Well, and it's so annoying for the people who care, right,
Speaker 2: like the people who would bother. I don't want to
Speaker 2: like be a Debbie Downer, you know, I want to
Speaker 2: know the truth, you know, And and I don't want
Speaker 2: people to hoax because it dilutes the pool of information
Speaker 2: out there.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's it's like, uh, there are strange things that happen,
Speaker 2: but you know, whether they're paranol or not is really
Speaker 2: it's tough enough question without people adding fake information.
Speaker 4: To the to the things we have to sift through.
Speaker 1: Well, I think I think we were on the same
Speaker 1: page with that, because you know, I'm like, there's there's
Speaker 1: enough extraordinary things that do happen, you know, I know
Speaker 1: they're elusive, but and you got to be patient, and
Speaker 1: you know, sitting through those those you know, eight to
Speaker 1: ten to twelve to sixteen hour paranormal investigations, just alone
Speaker 1: in the dark, you know, talking to yourself enter the recorder.
Speaker 1: I mean, that takes a lot of dedication to do.
Speaker 1: But you know, there are people out there who really
Speaker 1: are are interested in doing the work and I guess
Speaker 1: we have to clean our own house of the people
Speaker 1: who are muddying the waters. I think that's that's my message.
Speaker 1: And you know, that's why I'm so glad to be
Speaker 1: on today because you know, and I think it's important
Speaker 1: too that you know, this is a Skeptic magazine podcast,
Speaker 1: but that people who are in the paranormal will talk
Speaker 1: to so called skeptics because I think, you know, more
Speaker 1: of us have something in common than than not. I mean,
Speaker 1: and I think if we brought our two camps together,
Speaker 1: there'd be a lot of interesting revelations that would come
Speaker 1: out of it.
Speaker 5: Oh I agree, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I think there's
Speaker 5: a lot of distrust on both sides.
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because watching you know, some of your discussions,
Speaker 2: I gather that you know, in Skeptic, I think this.
Speaker 4: Is true for every group that involves people, right.
Speaker 2: That they they tend to splinter and have issues with
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 4: And you knows, factions and different agendas and all that.
Speaker 2: But but what you know, there's there's plenty of interesting
Speaker 2: things that can unite us. It's just really hard to
Speaker 2: get people to work together. I've had that problem here
Speaker 2: in Georgia as well. I want to go on ghost
Speaker 2: tours and that sort of thing. But you know, as
Speaker 2: soon as I declare that I'm a skeptic, then they're
Speaker 2: not interested in having me shut down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is.
Speaker 4: Too bad because I'm hilarious you are.
Speaker 1: I've explained that there haven't been more puns like the puns.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'll have to wing it, so.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. The other interesting thing, though, is there
Speaker 1: are people that as as I have. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to talk too much about the backlash, but
Speaker 1: I have experienced backlash, you know, for taking a skeptical position,
Speaker 1: and I won't talk about the details of that, but
Speaker 1: just to say that I also experienced others who, you know,
Speaker 1: upon seeing that you know, I was embattled, would come
Speaker 1: forward other people in the paranormal community and told me, hey,
Speaker 1: I had something similar happened to me when I expressed
Speaker 1: doubts about you know, this other case. So you know,
Speaker 1: there are people out there who who are searching for
Speaker 1: the truth. You know, they're not all hoaxers. There are
Speaker 1: people who are sincere and will do whatever they need
Speaker 1: to do to try to find answers. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'd like to see more opportunities like that. I'd like
Speaker 1: this where where those people can come together with people
Speaker 1: like you guys, and you know, try to sort this
Speaker 1: all out and get to something better, you know, get
Speaker 1: to a better form of investigation, you know, move to
Speaker 1: the next level. And I think we can really do
Speaker 1: that by working together, because you know, I guess people
Speaker 1: don't like skeptics, you know, if they're going to be
Speaker 1: just naysayers, you know, if they're just going to dogmatically say,
Speaker 1: well that's too crazy, it can't be. But if there
Speaker 1: are people who like you guys, who are just reaching
Speaker 1: out there and you know, trying to figure out what's
Speaker 1: what's real for yourself, I mean, like all of us
Speaker 1: are doing. You know, I think that that performs a
Speaker 1: great service because yeah, I really appreciate that, and I
Speaker 1: really appreciate that you asked the hard questions because that's
Speaker 1: the only way we're going to get to the truth.
Speaker 2: Well, I think we we You've heard me probably say
Speaker 2: before that I call us we're in the ghetto.
Speaker 4: Inside of ghetto, it's.
Speaker 2: Already you know, we're already a small group that are skeptics.
Speaker 2: And then within those skeptics who are interested in these
Speaker 2: sort of questions and and don't just reject it.
Speaker 4: We want to go. We care, We're interested. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4: It puts us in a ghetto inside of.
Speaker 2: Ghetto, so we're like in a But I'll tell you this,
Speaker 2: anytime I'm in Chicago, I'm more than willing to go
Speaker 2: look into this stuff and also eat it knof and off.
Speaker 2: And also, I would say, and I'm going to say
Speaker 2: Nonsense as well. There's a little place called Nonsense, which
Speaker 2: is sort of like a sort of.
Speaker 4: Indian fast food with curry fries. It's astonished.
Speaker 1: That would be the perfect place for us to meet
Speaker 1: out of this nonsense.
Speaker 4: It is so good.
Speaker 1: Well, we're all fighting against.
Speaker 4: You know, it's not just the pine. The food's fantastic.
Speaker 2: So they don't they're not a sponsor, but Nonsense in
Speaker 2: they Yeah, oh.
Speaker 4: My god, I love their foods so much.
Speaker 1: Let's monetize.
Speaker 5: Yes, I guess. We wanted to ask you if how
Speaker 5: are these sightings of the Chicago Moffman, how they are
Speaker 5: similar or different to the original mothman sightings, And do
Speaker 5: you think that it's possibly the same creature, if indeed
Speaker 5: it is a creature.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's what's most interesting to me is
Speaker 1: that the original Monthman sightings. You know, these witnesses came
Speaker 1: forward to the newspapers, they just didn't go to one source,
Speaker 1: and you were And it's still today. You know, many
Speaker 1: of the witnesses that are you know, still alive, you
Speaker 1: can contact and talk with them. The difference here with
Speaker 1: the Chicago moth man is, you know, something very insular
Speaker 1: is going on. You know, It's like a few witnesses
Speaker 1: have come forward to talk to me or other researchers
Speaker 1: that I know. But I think that's a big problem.
Speaker 1: You know, if there's witnesses and they talk to somebody
Speaker 1: who thinks they have an exclusive right to their story,
Speaker 1: I think that gets in the way of more research
Speaker 1: into what might may really be going on. And are
Speaker 1: there mothman type creatures? I don't know. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: not saying there are or there aren't, you know, as
Speaker 1: I as I mentioned, you know, I know people who
Speaker 1: have seen, you know, something that looks like a pterodactyl.
Speaker 1: But you know, are these real creatures or is there
Speaker 1: something else going on? You know, I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that I'm an expert in it, but I'm
Speaker 1: saying that information should be available to everybody, and that
Speaker 1: witnesses out there should know that, you know, they can
Speaker 1: talk to more than one person to report their sighting,
Speaker 1: and if they did, I think that would benefit the
Speaker 1: field greatly. So I think that's the big difference. Also,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys saw this, but I
Speaker 1: was lucky enough to over spring break to go to
Speaker 1: Kent in England to do some research on another project
Speaker 1: that I'm working on, And while I was there, I'm like, Hey,
Speaker 1: what about that nineteen sixty three sighting in Kent? I
Speaker 1: should do I should do a video about that sighting.
Speaker 1: Because you know, I'm all Mothman all the time. Now,
Speaker 1: Unfortunately I do do other things and you can find
Speaker 1: more of my work too, Like you know, if you
Speaker 1: go to to YouTube dot com slash Mothman, there's more
Speaker 1: there than just Mothman. I have paranormal interviews that I've
Speaker 1: done with researchers all over the world. I also anytime
Speaker 1: I go on vacation, as I said, I stay at
Speaker 1: haunted places, so I make little haunted road trip videos.
Speaker 1: So if you're interested in paranormal travels, you might want
Speaker 1: to check out some of the videos I've made on that.
Speaker 1: So and you know, I have a podcast as well.
Speaker 1: I see you on the other side other sidepodcast dot com.
Speaker 1: So I'm interested in more than just the Mothman. But
Speaker 1: you know, since I was there in England, I thought, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to check out the site of
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty three Mothman siting, which is really interesting
Speaker 1: because you know, people don't think about the Mothman occurring
Speaker 1: anywhere until, you know, nineteen sixty six. But there was
Speaker 1: a sighting that was covered in many publications. And the
Speaker 1: interesting thing that I found which made me kind of
Speaker 1: reconsider John Keel as well, because of course he wrote
Speaker 1: the Mothman Prophecies about all the weirds going on in
Speaker 1: plaint Pleasant. He wrote that in nineteen seventy five. Now
Speaker 1: he also looked into this nineteen sixty three sighting and
Speaker 1: again cast it in the light of the Mothman. Of
Speaker 1: that it was this strange winged creature, but other people
Speaker 1: from Kent thought that it might be a ghost.
Speaker 4: But to be.
Speaker 1: Honest, when you read the account, it does seem more
Speaker 1: like a mothman, you know. To just let John Keel
Speaker 1: off the hook there. So there are legends of that
Speaker 1: area in the county of Kent, England, of William Turney
Speaker 1: who was the landowner in that area, very prominent landowner,
Speaker 1: and when he died he was built on a little
Speaker 1: island which is now part of a park. And so
Speaker 1: we stumbled into that park and you know, saw what
Speaker 1: we could see and did a couple of videos there.
Speaker 1: But it was interesting seeing that in the newspapers at
Speaker 1: the time, people were speculating, as you know, saying that,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe this was the ghost of William Tournay.
Speaker 1: But what was really reported was first seeing these red lights,
Speaker 1: this red light coming from the forest, and so some
Speaker 1: of the witnesses just saw these strange lights and others
Speaker 1: reported seeing this very tall creature come out of the woods,
Speaker 1: very dark, long wings, very tall, and so that really
Speaker 1: does sound like the Mothman, except for one detail. It
Speaker 1: had webbed feet, So I prefer to call it a
Speaker 1: new creature, bat duck. I mean, that's I think the
Speaker 1: bat duck. It's not really Mothman because you know, no
Speaker 1: reports other than that described web web feet. But we
Speaker 1: have Mothman and then we have bat ducks watch out for.
Speaker 5: I've had of an l man as well in Cornwall.
Speaker 5: I think it was and I'm wondering that. I think
Speaker 5: that was in the seventies, though not in the sixties.
Speaker 1: Right, that was in the seventies, and recently, I think recently,
Speaker 1: actually not recently. I have I just have, you know,
Speaker 1: boxes and boxes of all the fortyen Times magazine. That's
Speaker 1: my favorite paranormal meg And when the movie came out
Speaker 1: of the Mothman Prophecies with Richard Gear, they had a
Speaker 1: special issue I believe this was two thousand and two
Speaker 1: or two thousand and six. Anyway, they they came out
Speaker 1: with a special issue on the moss Band and they
Speaker 1: looked into the whole cornwall owl Man and feel and
Speaker 1: the you know, the reporter who wrote that article came
Speaker 1: out with the fact that that he thinks it's an
Speaker 1: art hoax. It's it's a bunch of art students that
Speaker 1: came up with this out alike creature thing that they made.
Speaker 1: And so that that was the conclusion on that one,
Speaker 1: at least in that one article.
Speaker 4: Interesting.
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, Yeah, we love fortyen Times. It's a fascinating magazine.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and again, you know, if you're interested in
Speaker 1: the paranormal, you don't just have to go to places
Speaker 1: which you know, just slap anything up as truth. I
Speaker 1: mean you can you can find sources that have much
Speaker 1: more rigor. And forty in Times is one of those
Speaker 1: where yeah, I mean a lot.
Speaker 4: Of times and they pay, they pay, Yes, which rare?
Speaker 1: Have you written for them?
Speaker 4: Blake, Yes, yes, you have great.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that's another source that you can go to if
Speaker 1: you're really interested in the paranormal and you want the
Speaker 1: real stuff. You know, I think you'd be. It would
Speaker 1: behoove you to, you know, find some sources that put
Speaker 1: a little rigor into their investigation, and forty Times is
Speaker 1: one of them. And there's also many many organizations that
Speaker 1: take parapsychology seriously. And there's many journals as well, scientific
Speaker 1: journals about the paranormal and parapsychology, So you know, there
Speaker 1: is there is that higher quality research going on. It's
Speaker 1: just that I wanted to be I wanted to be
Speaker 1: more commonplace. I wanted to be the norm rather than
Speaker 1: the exception.
Speaker 2: Well that goes into what of our or at least
Speaker 2: my personal core values, which is Skepticism is a methodology.
Speaker 4: It's not a club, right, I mean, it's.
Speaker 2: Something that people should take on and use in whatever
Speaker 2: their field is.
Speaker 4: To try to figure out what's true and what's not true.
Speaker 4: And if you don't, you know, then how can you distinguish?
Speaker 2: I mean, you could just be enthusiastic about the stories,
Speaker 2: but that's not going to tell you whether things are
Speaker 2: really happening or not.
Speaker 1: So right, why not just read fiction then, is my argument.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're really into the very normal, you know,
Speaker 1: science is a great methodology. You know, it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be your religion, and actually it shouldn't. You know,
Speaker 1: this whole idea of scientism. You know, there are people
Speaker 1: who take it on as a religion, and to me,
Speaker 1: they're in the similar position as you know, diet in
Speaker 1: the woe believers. We have to meet in the middle,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad that's what we're doing today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I totally agree, and that we actually I
Speaker 2: talked about that with Messimo Puliucci in a lost interview.
Speaker 4: That's one of the ones I lost. I really should
Speaker 4: have him back on again.
Speaker 2: We talked a lot about scientism and the idea of
Speaker 2: just because something is, you know, has a scientific air
Speaker 2: about it, just believing it automatically, and that's just as
Speaker 2: dangerous right side of the coin.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think too that there's other approaches too.
Speaker 1: There's science, but then you know, there's also you know,
Speaker 1: cultures across the world that you know, have made discoveries,
Speaker 1: have have learned things without the benefit of science. So
Speaker 1: there are other approaches, you know, So we don't want
Speaker 1: to say that science is the only one, you know,
Speaker 1: although hey, you know I love my iPhone that you
Speaker 1: know that technology came right out of science, But you know,
Speaker 1: I think there's multiple ways to look at the world.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, so, uh.
Speaker 2: I first of all, thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 2: I think we can probably just keep talking, but we
Speaker 2: do have to wind down.
Speaker 4: So yeah, we have very good Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: And we'll put links to all your stuff, your podcast
Speaker 2: and your playlist and anything else you want.
Speaker 4: To send us in the show notes.
Speaker 2: That would be great, and uh and too Lones Strickler's
Speaker 2: page and to his book and people can sort of
Speaker 2: check this stuff out themselves. And we'll reach out to
Speaker 2: Lona see if he wants to talk to us. And
Speaker 2: we're also planning to talk to Lauren Coleman, who's written
Speaker 2: a little bit about the Chicago moth Man as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm in his book actually, cool. Yeah, I'm in.
Speaker 1: I'm in that one, the the recent.
Speaker 4: One incarnate.
Speaker 1: Will Also his two thousand and two book has my
Speaker 1: one of my reports about a pterodactyl type creature and
Speaker 1: that that was the moth Man and other Curious Encounters
Speaker 1: from two thousand and two.
Speaker 5: Sweet cool.
Speaker 4: All right, So Karen, you want to take us out?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, So Allison, you know you're a listener, you know,
Speaker 5: are our final question for what's your favorite monster?
Speaker 1: Oh man, see, I should have done more thinking on that.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be so prepared on the other stiffe. Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's not the last man, Oh man, I think
Speaker 1: I think Poltergeist. Yes, poltergeist are my favorite monster. I
Speaker 1: actually know someone who who who is one of the
Speaker 1: tour guides on the City of the Dead tours in Edinburgh, Scotland,
Speaker 1: and so the Mackenzie Poltergeist is my favorite monster because
Speaker 1: there's been so many reports of uh poltergeist attacks over
Speaker 1: the years attributed to the Mackenzie polter guys. So I
Speaker 1: would say that's my favorite monster. In Grayfriars Kirkyard in.
Speaker 2: Edinburgh, Great Grayfriars Kirkyard is such an interesting story. Uh yeah,
Speaker 2: that's uh, we haven't covered that on Monster Talk, but
Speaker 2: that's not I think.
Speaker 5: I'm familiar with that one.
Speaker 1: Well, put you in touch with someone that can tell
Speaker 1: you all about it and who's also a skeptic, so uh,
Speaker 1: you might be interested in finding out more about that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's my favorite monster just because it seems
Speaker 1: to be you know, whether it's you know, caused by
Speaker 1: you know people, uh and and their beliefs and their
Speaker 1: expectations or what have you. I mean, they're they're certainly
Speaker 1: something weird going on there with all the scratches, burns,
Speaker 1: and bite marks that you know, there's been over five
Speaker 1: hundred reports and uh, you know, to their credit, City
Speaker 1: of the Dead will actually try to drag those people
Speaker 1: back to the office who have had experiences and take
Speaker 1: photos and take a statement. So they do have a
Speaker 1: database of of those reports.
Speaker 4: That's really intriguing. It's interesting.
Speaker 2: So uh, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we could put some links to that in
Speaker 2: the show notes as well. All right, Well, thank you
Speaker 2: so much for taking the time to talk to us
Speaker 2: and all the hard work you put into this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. I'm really glad to talk
Speaker 1: to you, and I hope this is just the first
Speaker 1: four foray of you know, paranormal investigators and skeptics coming together.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and don't forget nonsense knofknof and lumin Aalto's
Speaker 2: if you're cogno.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let me know when you're coming into town.
Speaker 1: I would really love to meet up.
Speaker 2: You've been listening to Monster Talk, this science show about monsters.
Speaker 2: I'm Blake Smith.
Speaker 5: And I'm Karen Stolsner.
Speaker 2: Today you heard an interview with paranormal researcher Alison Jordlin.
Speaker 2: You can find links to herd podcasts and research and
Speaker 2: our show notes at MonsterTalk dot org. I really do
Speaker 2: love Chicago. I've got some great friends there, and there's
Speaker 2: such great architecture and great food. There's so much to
Speaker 2: do and see. There's museums, there's clubs.
Speaker 4: It's my kind of town.
Speaker 2: Monster Talk's an official podcast of Skeptic Magazine. The opinions
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