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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 3: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 3: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 4: Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 4: program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime
Speaker 4: History and the authors that have written about them. Returning
Speaker 4: for another chilling season, investigation Discovery's Dark Mind transports the
Speaker 4: most dangerous of all criminals right into your own home
Speaker 4: in the series returning on February twenty seven. Non fiction
Speaker 4: crime author m William Phelps his latest is The Kiss
Speaker 4: of the She Devil, and criminal profiler John Kelly revisit
Speaker 4: unsolved homicides believed to be the work of serial killers.
Speaker 4: The twist they have an insider that ultimately understands the
Speaker 4: disturbed mind of a murderer because he is one currently
Speaker 4: serving multiple life sentences in a maximum security prison with
Speaker 4: a new voice on the other end of the line
Speaker 4: this season, known only to audiences as Raven, this unique
Speaker 4: source offers his expert opinion to profile the killers whose
Speaker 4: victims deserve justice and whose families deserve answers. Raven's voice
Speaker 4: and identity are disguised as he uses his own personal
Speaker 4: experience to formulate theories about the motives and practices of
Speaker 4: each murderer, providing unorthodox yet invaluable information that Phelps and
Speaker 4: Kelly make sense of in an act to provide law
Speaker 4: enforcement with critical leads. The program that we're pro following
Speaker 4: this evening is Dark Minds with my special guest, journalist
Speaker 4: and author and now television star m William Phelps. Welcome
Speaker 4: to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview,
Speaker 4: M William Phelps.
Speaker 5: And how you doing. Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 4: Oh great, thanks for coming on here and talking about
Speaker 4: It's a really wild program. So first things, you know,
Speaker 4: it just piqued my interest, and I'm sure the audience
Speaker 4: has the same question. How did you find this serial killer?
Speaker 4: It's not like there's a big list of guys, but
Speaker 4: you are a true crime author, and you've written a
Speaker 4: lot of true crime books. But how on earth did
Speaker 4: you get this connection? First off, how'd you do that?
Speaker 4: How did you come about this person that's just this
Speaker 4: known as Raven?
Speaker 5: Well after, during filming of the first season of Dark Minds,
Speaker 5: John Kelly, my my partner criminal profiler, he you know,
Speaker 5: he was suggesting to me, well, he had been suggesting
Speaker 5: me to me for a while that I should develop
Speaker 5: my own source just for you know, my own work.
Speaker 5: And so Kelly and I discussed how to do that.
Speaker 5: We we put the put a list of names together.
Speaker 5: He threw out some names, and I had several. Look,
Speaker 5: I mean, I've written twenty three books. I've got all
Speaker 5: kinds of people writing to me. With the first season
Speaker 5: of the show announced, I had more than enough killers
Speaker 5: writing to me want to be part of it. And
Speaker 5: and and we you know, and I wrote to some
Speaker 5: myself that I thought could help. And so through all
Speaker 5: of those things, uh, we ended up with Raven after
Speaker 5: you know, a long time of reading the fields. If
Speaker 5: you will, you know, with a show like this, with
Speaker 5: what we do, it has to be the perfect situation.
Speaker 5: I want to be absolutely one hundred percent sure that
Speaker 5: this person isn't telling me what I want to hear,
Speaker 5: that that they're being honest with their critique, with their
Speaker 5: you know, you know, with their profiling. Really, so it
Speaker 5: took a while. It takes a while, and you know,
Speaker 5: I believe we have someone now who who's really being
Speaker 5: brutally honest to the point of being terrifying.
Speaker 3: Right right, Well.
Speaker 4: That's seen that now. Now that being said, how did
Speaker 4: you what was the criteria for you? I'm other than
Speaker 4: being you know, really frank, because not all of these guys,
Speaker 4: serial killers are are known for completely telling the truth.
Speaker 4: So what was it about his background? Without giving anything
Speaker 4: too much away, but what was it about his background
Speaker 4: or the signature of his crimes, or why is it
Speaker 4: that you thought that he might be a guy that
Speaker 4: could be a real good asset, because obviously you have
Speaker 4: to have some criteria to be able to pick you
Speaker 4: said you had surprisingly, but I guess with the first season,
Speaker 4: it blows my mind that serial kills would be contacting
Speaker 4: you'd want to be on television. But you know, there
Speaker 4: we are, twenty thirteen. But what was the criteria? Well,
Speaker 4: picking this serial killer in particular.
Speaker 5: Well, there wasn't really a criteria per se. It was
Speaker 5: just I had to feel each potential candidate, if you will,
Speaker 5: out and talk to them, and they didn't need to
Speaker 5: kill you know, a certain amount of people or there
Speaker 5: was nothing like It was nothing like that. It was
Speaker 5: more or less you know, did I trust this person?
Speaker 5: Did I trust what they were saying? Did I trust
Speaker 5: that they were doing this for the reason that they
Speaker 5: say they were doing it? Did I trust that this
Speaker 5: person was was gonna be honest and and and and
Speaker 5: not play that whole game. I've interviewed countless murderers, psychopaths,
Speaker 5: et cetera. You know, even if they're telling the truth,
Speaker 5: they're lying about half of it. So I wanted to
Speaker 5: find someone who is just going to say, look, I'm
Speaker 5: in jail for the rest of my life, for multiple
Speaker 5: life terms, and you know what, I'm gonna open up
Speaker 5: now because that openness and honesty is gonna is gonna
Speaker 5: help you understand the mind of the monster that you're chasing.
Speaker 5: So the criteria was just, you know, is it is
Speaker 5: it the right situation? Do I believe it's the right situation?
Speaker 5: And uh, I absolutely believe I found that.
Speaker 2: Mm hm.
Speaker 4: The The other thing is other than obviously his experience,
Speaker 4: because you can hear that as an analysis. But uh,
Speaker 4: and he has to be intelligent and articulate as well.
Speaker 4: What was the reason for the serial killer wanting to
Speaker 4: do this?
Speaker 5: Uh? Well, that's that's for him to discuss us and
Speaker 5: him to kind of outline as the season goes on,
Speaker 5: and and and really, we're going to be releasing an
Speaker 5: interview I did with him, especially for for this reason,
Speaker 5: for promotion, et cetera. And I asked him that question,
Speaker 5: why are you doing this? And we're going to be
Speaker 5: releasing that the audio of that end of next week.
Speaker 5: Uh on I on the ID site. So you're going
Speaker 5: to hear from him himself why he's doing this. Uh.
Speaker 5: You know, in a nutshell, he believes that he believes
Speaker 5: that I have good intentions and that I can help
Speaker 5: gather information that will help not solve you know, we're
Speaker 5: not here to solve cases. We're here to I'm here
Speaker 5: to develop information to hand over to the law enforcement,
Speaker 5: to the right people who can then take it and
Speaker 5: hopefully add it to what they have and and and
Speaker 5: and get some answers. And and Raven believes that he's
Speaker 5: helping me and doing that. I really honestly believe he does.
Speaker 4: Now, what is the sort of schedule that you have
Speaker 4: for this season, What are some of the areas or
Speaker 4: cities or crimes that you're looking and tell us a
Speaker 4: little bit about what exactly you're looking at in terms
Speaker 4: of cases unsolved cases.
Speaker 5: Sure well. The first episode airing Wednesday night, February twenty
Speaker 5: seventh on an Investigation Discovery is the original night Stalker
Speaker 5: case out of California, And not to be confused with
Speaker 5: Richard Ramirez the Nightstalker. This is the original Nightstalker crimes
Speaker 5: that took place between nineteen seventy six to nineteen seventy nine,
Speaker 5: and then there was a tiny little break and then
Speaker 5: there was some murders from nineteen eighty to nineteen eighty six,
Speaker 5: excuse me, of rapes and murders. So we have like
Speaker 5: fifty rapes and then we have like ten murders over
Speaker 5: a period of what twelve years or so.
Speaker 3: And.
Speaker 5: Jeezus, it's an incredible case. He's the smartest serial killer
Speaker 5: that I've ever run into, that will ever run into,
Speaker 5: I believe. From from from California, we go back to
Speaker 5: the East Coast and we do do something that's very
Speaker 5: personal to me a case that involves Molly Bush, Holly Parinian,
Speaker 5: and two missing girls right in the town that I'm from, uh,
Speaker 5: Lisa White and Jani's Pocket. And I mean, if you
Speaker 5: look me up on Facebook and and and that sort
Speaker 5: of thing, you'll see I wrote an article about that
Speaker 5: case for Connecticut Magazine, which they just published on their website.
Speaker 5: So that's a personal one, very emotional. From there, we go,
Speaker 5: we go all over through this throughout the season. I'm
Speaker 5: in Oregon, I'm way up Dan, I'm way up in
Speaker 5: British Columbia and Smithers, British Columbia, which is a couple
Speaker 5: one hundred miles from the Alaskan border up there. Down
Speaker 5: I'm back down in Texas, I'm down in Florida, I'm
Speaker 5: out in Missouri, and then I'm out in Virginia and
Speaker 5: back in New England. So I'm really chasing these guys
Speaker 5: all over the place. I mean, you know, you look
Speaker 5: at any major city in America right now as we
Speaker 5: sit here and we talk, and there's you know, I
Speaker 5: say too, but there's probably more active, working serial killers
Speaker 5: in each major city across this country right now. So
Speaker 5: they're out there, you know, they're they're out there and
Speaker 5: they're looking for victims.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and everywhere else in the world too, you know.
Speaker 4: That's that's the fascinating America, though, it seems to just
Speaker 4: have a bigger recognition of it too. I think I
Speaker 4: don't know if you know, I don't know if I
Speaker 4: can believe that the US is just, uh, you know,
Speaker 4: the the innovator of this. But because I know serial
Speaker 4: killers are everywhere, but I know that serial killers are
Speaker 4: more recognized and some of the work that even you're doing,
Speaker 4: I think serial killers are recognized in America more than
Speaker 4: anywhere else.
Speaker 5: Well, well, well, I think that's definitely true. I also
Speaker 5: think that in America it's more densely uh populated in areas,
Speaker 5: so so you see, you're able to pick off these crimes.
Speaker 5: You go to Europe and there that you know, there's villages,
Speaker 5: there's you know, there's it's it's more open and it's
Speaker 5: more spaced out. So there's not a lot of law
Speaker 5: enforcement sources putting crimes together, if you will.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: Here, we have task forces set up for it. We
Speaker 5: have databases. So so when a couple of murders that
Speaker 5: match up pop up, you know, the eyes open up
Speaker 5: on law enforcement there either eyebrows raised and what we
Speaker 5: have here, so yeah, we're looking for it more here.
Speaker 4: I would say, absolutely, What are some of some other
Speaker 4: cases that you're interested in? Specifically they occurred this season?
Speaker 5: One one that one that really that I'll talk about,
Speaker 5: one that really emotionally got to me that, you know,
Speaker 5: when I should explain first Dan, when when I'm on
Speaker 5: the road filming, you know, it's it's grueling. I mean,
Speaker 5: it's it's we leave the hotel at eight in the
Speaker 5: morning and we sometimes you know, usually we don't arrive
Speaker 5: back till ten at night.
Speaker 2: Uh huh.
Speaker 5: And and so twenty four to seven, I'm living this,
Speaker 5: you know. And when you latch onto a case like
Speaker 5: the Killing Fields in Texas, which which is an episode
Speaker 5: this season, and what we're talking about when we say
Speaker 5: the Killing Fields is from Houston down to Galveston, the
Speaker 5: I forty five corridor. You know, we're talking We're talking
Speaker 5: dozens and dozens and dozens of dead girls over a
Speaker 5: long period of time. And when I got down there
Speaker 5: and I started looking into this and started interviewing the
Speaker 5: family members of some of these girls who were twelve thirteen,
Speaker 5: and I started learning aspects of these crimes. It was
Speaker 5: just overwhelming. I've met some of the stuff I've heard.
Speaker 5: I thought I heard everything. I've thought, I've seen everything.
Speaker 5: I mean, I've looked at thousands and thousands of crime
Speaker 5: scene photos, I've interviewed cops about everything. But what I
Speaker 5: heard down there I had never heard before. I didn't
Speaker 5: think human beings were capable of doing to each other.
Speaker 5: And you know, not a lot of that is going
Speaker 5: to end up in a show, obviously because it's too gruesome,
Speaker 5: But just the number of victims and the potential for
Speaker 5: the number of serial killers was just staggering to me.
Speaker 5: And and yeah, so that case sticks out in my mind.
Speaker 5: And another case that sticks out in my mind is
Speaker 5: a case in Oregon we did And it was the
Speaker 5: second or third week I was on the road and
Speaker 5: we were out in Oregon filming and we were getting
Speaker 5: ready to head up to British Columbia to Canada and
Speaker 5: someone someone robbed me. Someone broke into our van and
Speaker 5: took my bag with my passport, everything, my iPad. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and and I chased the dude. I chased the dude
Speaker 5: and I ended up getting his license plate number, and
Speaker 5: long story short, it took all night. But we got
Speaker 5: a few of my items back, which were which was
Speaker 5: my passport is what I really needed.
Speaker 2: I got that back.
Speaker 5: But yeah, you know it's like it's like here I am,
Speaker 5: I'm filming a crime show and I'm involved in this
Speaker 5: yeah yeah, and I'm out there solid a crime. So
Speaker 5: it was it was bizarre, but you know those are
Speaker 5: the rigors of film and a television show on the road.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's reality TV for sure? Is it?
Speaker 5: Definitely is?
Speaker 4: Now, maybe you can describe for people that haven't tuned
Speaker 4: into this program, what is the basic setup. I know
Speaker 4: we talked about it in the intro a little bit,
Speaker 4: but it is sort of a maybe you can also
Speaker 4: talk about sort of the innovative mix of things that
Speaker 4: you sort of have there. It's a little bit of
Speaker 4: the you know, tell us a little bit, but it's
Speaker 4: a little mix of reality TV and then re dramatization.
Speaker 4: But tell us how you put this all together. It's
Speaker 4: a very fascinating sort of sort of innovative twist on.
Speaker 4: It's not a documentary, but tell us what it really is.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well would consider it docu drama. So it's it's
Speaker 5: it's basically what I do during my day job, which
Speaker 5: is writing books. It's it's investigativejournalism. I set out, I
Speaker 5: take a case and I look at a case that
Speaker 5: I believe is an unsolved, a case involving multiple victims
Speaker 5: and or a serial killer somewhere in there. And what
Speaker 5: I do is I just set out to talk to
Speaker 5: law enforcement, talk to victims, family members, you know, talk
Speaker 5: to local reporters, develop sources. I use some secret sources.
Speaker 5: This year, I interviewed several survivors on different episodes, survivors
Speaker 5: of a serial killer who got away for some reason.
Speaker 5: And what I try to do is look at it.
Speaker 5: You know, most of these cases haven't been looked at
Speaker 5: in a long time because no new leads have come in.
Speaker 5: So I look at them and I just try to
Speaker 5: present them to the public, hoping the public will notice something.
Speaker 5: Through that, I bring information back to my partner, John Kelly,
Speaker 5: who's a criminal profiler, and Kelly begins to build sort
Speaker 5: of a profile for me of the type of person
Speaker 5: I'm looking for, and through that we call on my
Speaker 5: secret source, if you will, Raven the serial killer, and
Speaker 5: we begin to ask Raven questions about certain aspects of
Speaker 5: the crime that I'm looking at. And he gives us insight,
Speaker 5: which in turn kind of changes my thinking. And and okay,
Speaker 5: and the best weapon I have is the right question
Speaker 5: to ask the right person. So so Raven helps me
Speaker 5: in developing the right way to think about, you know,
Speaker 5: the crimes. Look at him differently. He puts me into
Speaker 5: the mind of the guy that I'm chasing, you know. Uh,
Speaker 5: and only a guy who's done it can do that. So,
Speaker 5: you know, that's the premise of the show. And and
Speaker 5: and then at the end we offer a plea, you know,
Speaker 5: come forward if you have any information. And you know,
Speaker 5: if we have any potential persons of interest, we we
Speaker 5: certainly present them, We present our theories, and we see
Speaker 5: what happens. The show hasn't even aired yet this year,
Speaker 5: and I'm already getting tips about the second episode. So
Speaker 5: it's it's quite interesting when the journey begins.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a fascinating program. I was surprised last year
Speaker 4: that that any television network accepted this idea. It's a
Speaker 4: great idea, but it was still surprising that network would
Speaker 4: do it. I mean, really come a long way. Really
Speaker 4: when you've got a serial killer on the line, so.
Speaker 5: Well, it's uh, you know, it's this is this is
Speaker 5: the reason why his voice has changed. We don't know
Speaker 5: who he is or you know, the viewer doesn't know.
Speaker 5: He is a voice on the line, a voice that
Speaker 5: can potentially help. So I mean I would never do
Speaker 5: it if if I had to identify who he was
Speaker 5: that I wouldn't do that because I didn't I wouldn't
Speaker 5: want to glorify his crimes, you know, in any way.
Speaker 5: So yeah, so I think it works, and it works
Speaker 5: well the way we're doing it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I never thought of that, but that it really
Speaker 4: does ensure that he's this is not one of his motives,
Speaker 4: is the infamy from it, because you probably have a
Speaker 4: way of protecting yourself as well that he can't a
Speaker 4: couple of seasons from now say hey I'm the Raven.
Speaker 4: And he can't do anything with this notoriety anyway, So
Speaker 4: it seems genuine and obviously you're not giving him any
Speaker 4: fame per se from this.
Speaker 5: So I mean, yeah, I mean, any any killer, serial
Speaker 5: killer in prison right now could write a letter to
Speaker 5: a newspaper and say hey I'm raven, right, I mean,
Speaker 5: five of them could do it tomorrow. So there's no
Speaker 5: way that he can identify himself in that respect, and
Speaker 5: you know, that's not what I'm worried about. I'm really
Speaker 5: all that I'm concerned about is getting answers for families
Speaker 5: of these victims, because you know, you sit in front
Speaker 5: of someone who's lost their daughter, twelve thirteen year old
Speaker 5: daughter and they have no idea where her body is
Speaker 5: or who her killer abductor is and it's been fifteen
Speaker 5: twenty years, and you see the pain and loss on
Speaker 5: their face, and you're going to do anything you can
Speaker 5: to help give them an answer. And I will do
Speaker 5: anything I can to help that and help them get
Speaker 5: an answer. And you know, and Raven's part of that,
Speaker 5: you know, He's part of getting that answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: No, I think it's very very honorable, very interesting, and
Speaker 4: very much you know, I mean, because you have this
Speaker 4: sort of a little bit of this element as well.
Speaker 4: Where you make the plea is that this America's Most
Speaker 4: Wanted started off again from a person that that had
Speaker 4: more than It wasn't a movie star, wasn't a television
Speaker 4: star that started that program. It was a victim's father.
Speaker 4: And maybe this is an opportunity what really drove you
Speaker 4: to be involved with this?
Speaker 3: But to be.
Speaker 4: Involved with true crime, immerse yourself with it as completely
Speaker 4: as you have. What was that personal attachment to this
Speaker 4: sort of life that you've chosen?
Speaker 5: Well, part of it, I guess is I mean. I
Speaker 5: had a family member, My brother's wife was brutally murdered.
Speaker 5: Its unsolved case, and at first it was thought that
Speaker 5: she was killed by a local series killer who's killing
Speaker 5: lots of women. It's still unsolved. Does that drive me?
Speaker 5: I know, I don't get up in the morning, you know,
Speaker 5: with that on my mind, But I'm sure it's in
Speaker 5: there somewhere. Seeing the pain on my niece and nephew's faces,
Speaker 5: I mean that drives me. Sure. Watching my brother die
Speaker 5: after she died a slow, painful death from addiction certainly
Speaker 5: drives me because.
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Speaker 5: Who was ruined after she was murdered. Uh uh and
Speaker 5: and and you know he died at forty seven, so
Speaker 5: uh yeah, so so yeah that drives me. You know,
Speaker 5: I don't know, I I dan I I got into
Speaker 5: this many many many years ago, and it just it
Speaker 5: just felt right to me to continue to do it.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: And it's and it feels uh more so today than
Speaker 5: it ever has.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: I feel like I'm doing what I should be doing.
Speaker 5: And you know, you know, in going back to Raven,
Speaker 5: I mean, if you're chasing the devil, you know, uh,
Speaker 5: sometimes you gotta you gotta chat with his disciples in
Speaker 5: order to get to him. So uh, that's how we
Speaker 5: look at it on Dark Minds.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what uh what I want to also talk about
Speaker 4: just before, because we only have thirty minutes with you.
Speaker 4: You're a very busy person. Maybe we could talk about
Speaker 4: your latest book, Kiss of the She devil. Just give
Speaker 4: us a little bit of information what that's regarding and
Speaker 4: just got released or is to be released. So tell
Speaker 4: us a little bit.
Speaker 5: About kiss of the She Devils to the she Devil
Speaker 5: focuses on the other half of my forte, which is
Speaker 5: female murderers. And in Gail Fulton was you know, I
Speaker 5: want to say she was the perfect woman, but of
Speaker 5: course everybody has flaws. She Gail Fulton was a rosary
Speaker 5: a day saying Catholic. She was a librarian and she's
Speaker 5: walking out of a library one night in Michigan where
Speaker 5: she worked, and you know, she's gunned down in the
Speaker 5: parking lot and three people are in a vehicle and
Speaker 5: they flee, and it's it's like, who would want to
Speaker 5: kill this poor woman? You know, so obviously they go
Speaker 5: straight to the husband because you know, you know, if
Speaker 5: a murder victory, yeah, if a murder victim is a
Speaker 5: bulls eye, the first ring around the bullseye is everybody
Speaker 5: that person knows.
Speaker 4: I mean sure, it is.
Speaker 5: So rare that people are murdered by someone they don't know.
Speaker 5: It just doesn't happen. That's why serial killers, serial killings
Speaker 5: are so random, so rare, because you know, they don't
Speaker 5: know each other, the victim and the killer, so they
Speaker 5: go to the husband and they start to talk to
Speaker 5: him and they unravel this this salacious, whole affair that's
Speaker 5: going on that goes from Michigan all the way down
Speaker 5: to Florida. And it's an incredible story for me to
Speaker 5: write about a psychopath, a female psychopath who's at the
Speaker 5: center of all of this. I love writing about female psychopaths.
Speaker 5: I'm writing about one as we speak, Shila Davolu, and
Speaker 5: they're so intriguing to me because with the female murder or,
Speaker 5: there's so much that goes into this this murder, so
Speaker 5: much thought, so much obsession, so much fantasy that there's
Speaker 5: almost an element of serial killing in it, except it's
Speaker 5: not multiple victims, you know, because when you deal with
Speaker 5: a serial killer, serial killers are all about the fantasy.
Speaker 5: It's all about the fantasy, whatever their fantasy is, and
Speaker 5: part of that fantasy is obviously murder. So when I'm
Speaker 5: dealing with the female psychopath, you know, they think about
Speaker 5: the murder, they plan it, you know, months months in advance,
Speaker 5: and their whole life revolves around it. So it's compelling
Speaker 5: for me to write about it. And Kiss of the
Speaker 5: She Devil is definitely right in that wheelhouse. It involves
Speaker 5: a twisted love triangle, and you know it has all
Speaker 5: the elements of one of those gripping true crime thrillers,
Speaker 5: you know. So, yeah, that's out March fifth.
Speaker 4: And that's a pinnacle time, Yes.
Speaker 5: It is, yep, and I'll be I'll be at the
Speaker 5: Tucson Book Festival March ninth. Yeah, March ninth and tenth
Speaker 5: talking about that book in Arizona.
Speaker 4: Great, great, well, that's great news, uh for people that
Speaker 4: don't know too. John Kelly's uh is a criminal profiler
Speaker 4: and did he get his start or but he wasn't.
Speaker 4: I don't know who was his start, but was he?
Speaker 4: He was involved with interviewing John Wayne Gacy on Death Row,
Speaker 4: but that wasn't his first interview obviously, but that's one
Speaker 4: of his more I guess famous interviews.
Speaker 5: Right right. No, John has been working with serial killers
Speaker 5: and law enforcement and profiling for geez twenty five years now.
Speaker 5: His his background, John's background is is in psychotherapy. He's
Speaker 5: a he's a therapist, he's an addiction specialist. And one
Speaker 5: of one of John's theories is that serial killing and
Speaker 5: I absolutely agree with him. And one of John's theories
Speaker 5: is that serial killing is is an addiction and and
Speaker 5: it's there's no doubt in my mind that once a
Speaker 5: serial killer pulls that trigger and starts, he cannot and
Speaker 5: will not stop until we stop him. It's just impossible.
Speaker 5: Now he may cool off, you know, you say BTK,
Speaker 5: and you know people always bring up that name, you know, BTK.
Speaker 5: When he was caught, he was just getting ready to
Speaker 5: get back into game. So there's a there's a there's
Speaker 5: a cooling off period, sure, and that can last a
Speaker 5: month or it can last ten years.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 5: Uh. You know in the original Night Soccer Case, the
Speaker 5: first episode of Dark Minds this season next Wednesday, you'll
Speaker 5: see that you'll see a cooling off period in this guy.
Speaker 5: You'll see you'll see this guy evolve really from a
Speaker 5: rapist into a serial murder. So uh, John, John focuses
Speaker 5: his line of work on that. Uh and uh, I
Speaker 5: love it. John is a mentor to me, He's a
Speaker 5: a friend, he's like a father to me in many ways.
Speaker 5: He he he I love the guy. He's he's he's
Speaker 5: great at what he does. He doesn't pull any punches,
Speaker 5: and that's what I need, you know, when I'm out there,
Speaker 5: when I'm chasing down information, I need someone pushing me.
Speaker 5: But I also need someone keeping check of my emotions.
Speaker 5: And John does that well. He keeps checking of how
Speaker 5: I'm doing.
Speaker 4: You know. Yeah, it's it's a really good team between
Speaker 4: you guys, and you have that camaraderie and that cohesion
Speaker 4: from last year that you know is very evident. Now
Speaker 4: you have raven On, very articulate and obviously experienced and
Speaker 4: like you say, you really trust this guy. So you've
Speaker 4: got three, you know, incredible minds here, but from different
Speaker 4: areas of expertise and experience, and I think you've got
Speaker 4: If there's if there is going to be a team
Speaker 4: that's going to solve some of this stuff, I think
Speaker 4: it's going to be you guys. And so the best
Speaker 4: of luck with that, because that would be an amazing
Speaker 4: never mind promo that this would be you know, life
Speaker 4: imitates art or whatever you want to call this, but
Speaker 4: it would be a very very good result to see
Speaker 4: something real, dramatic come as a result of your good
Speaker 4: work here.
Speaker 5: So I mean that last in last season one of
Speaker 5: the episode's episode I don't actually I don't want to
Speaker 5: say which one, but I can solve the case. I
Speaker 5: got a call, and I got several calls from a source,
Speaker 5: and absolutely I can solve that case. I know who
Speaker 5: the killer is. This guy, this source can solve the
Speaker 5: case for me. However, I can't get this person what
Speaker 5: they want and and sometimes you know, that's what it takes,
Speaker 5: and I just I can't do it. I can't get
Speaker 5: them what they need and they may take their information
Speaker 5: to the grave, and you know, and that's a good
Speaker 5: note to end on. I think is that is that
Speaker 5: for people who watch the show, they need to realize
Speaker 5: that they can do it anonymously. They can call in,
Speaker 5: they can email. Then they can get the information into
Speaker 5: the right hand anonymously and the information will speak for itself.
Speaker 5: And that's what we want, you know, we want these
Speaker 5: cases to move forward. That's our goal, move these cases forward.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well that's the best of luck too. That's it's
Speaker 4: going to be great tuning in. That's Dark Minds Investigation
Speaker 4: Discovery and William Phelps and John Kelly and the Secret
Speaker 4: serial Killer Raven on the line. That's next Wednesday at
Speaker 4: nine Is it nine eastern or what's the time? Ten?
Speaker 5: Ten? Ten eastern, ten Eastern on Investigation Discovery February twenty
Speaker 5: seventh and ten is the premiere episode, and earlier they'll
Speaker 5: show four or five episodes from last season, so you'll
Speaker 5: get Dark Minds from most of the day on Wednesday
Speaker 5: on ID.
Speaker 4: Wow. Great, I'm looking forward to it. It's gonna be
Speaker 4: very very exciting. Well, thank you Matt for coming on
Speaker 4: and taking some time to talk about Dark Minds and
Speaker 4: your new book, Kiss of the she Devil. Really appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Have a great night, and then I'll be tuning in
Speaker 4: next week for sure.
Speaker 5: Thank you. Dan. Always a pleasure to speak with you.
Speaker 4: Man.
Speaker 5: I appreciate the time, and we'll talk again, buddy.
Speaker 4: Okay, thanks very much, Matt. Have a great night, Okay,
Speaker 4: bye bye, good night. So I just got a few
Speaker 4: things I was going to talk with the audience about
Speaker 4: and just what's coming up next week. If people look
Speaker 4: on the site, you'll see a promo for I Monster
Speaker 4: with Tom Philbin and this is serial Killers in their
Speaker 4: Own Chilling Words. Trust me, this book is wild, because
Speaker 4: that's all it is is serial killers in their own
Speaker 4: chilling words. Disgusting, shocking, revealing, gruesome sometimes but again very
Speaker 4: very revealing, interesting, fascinating, and Tom gives an introduction to
Speaker 4: some of the serial killers that or all of the
Speaker 4: serial killers that he looks at Edmund Kemper, for example,
Speaker 4: he has Jeffrey Dahmer. Some he covers in more detail
Speaker 4: than others, and some that I hadn't really been aware
Speaker 4: of too much to any great degree. Wesley Allen Dodd
Speaker 4: is really the greatest well one of the things that
Speaker 4: I thought was greatly surprising to me in this book.
Speaker 4: And so I'm going to be reading from that because
Speaker 4: Tom seems to be unavailable or not anxious to come
Speaker 4: on the program and talk about his book. But the
Speaker 4: Prometheist Books that sent me were kind enough to send
Speaker 4: me the book, and I read it from cover to cover.
Speaker 4: It's a great book, and I'd love to talk about
Speaker 4: the book on air with the audience, the True Murder audience,
Speaker 4: and I think they will appreciate it, because that's what
Speaker 4: I would be asking Tom Philbin about as well, because
Speaker 4: basically I can explain in a few minutes what the
Speaker 4: premises of the book and why he decided to do this,
Speaker 4: and then from there, basically I will read some excerpts
Speaker 4: from this fascinating book and some famous and not so
Speaker 4: famous serial killers, or at least not as famous serial
Speaker 4: killers and their actual shocking writings. So that will be
Speaker 4: next week. I Monster by author Tom Philbin and I
Speaker 4: want to thank m. William Phelps. He was on the
Speaker 4: program previously with his book Love Her To Like You Said,
Speaker 4: twenty three books. He is one of the biggest best
Speaker 4: selling authors in the world today, and appreciate him coming
Speaker 4: on and talking about that, and appreciate Debbie arranging that
Speaker 4: with the Investigation Discovery. So that's gonna be great. I'm
Speaker 4: a big fan of Investigation Discovery. Again, true crime are
Speaker 4: basically murder documentaries twenty four to seven. The only program
Speaker 4: they had on a couple of years ago that wasn't
Speaker 4: true crime was at the X Files for some audre reason.
Speaker 4: But anyway, and I've just saw a little bit of
Speaker 4: Dark Minds. It's going to be coming up this episode
Speaker 4: and it's maybe it's better than last season, but it's
Speaker 4: definitely great. It's a very very interesting program. After that,
Speaker 4: we're going to be having on the program Janet McClelland
Speaker 4: on March sixth, this is Erato Phono Ophelia investigating Lust Murder.
Speaker 4: I had spoken about it just briefly. But this is
Speaker 4: going to be an amazing program because this is the
Speaker 4: definitive study of lust murder, the psychological, every psychological aspect
Speaker 4: of this detail. It's going to be it's gonna be
Speaker 4: a fascinating interview. I've heard her on my good friend
Speaker 4: Burrol Bears program True Crimes Uncensored, and she's a heck
Speaker 4: of a guest, and she's going I'm going to have
Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to this. If the program runs over
Speaker 4: an hour, I wouldn't be surprised if I can get
Speaker 4: her to hang on. I'm she might just have to
Speaker 4: cut me off, because this is going to be a great,
Speaker 4: great integram, very very especially. I'm interested in everything I do,
Speaker 4: but this is especially interesting to me. And it's still
Speaker 4: tune in for that after that. March thirteenth, Anthony Laco
Speaker 4: is another great guest that I had listened to on
Speaker 4: Burrowbar's True Crime Uncensored and actually the True Crime Uncensored
Speaker 4: on American Horrors Heart Fisher's twenty four to seven horror
Speaker 4: channel on Anyway on the Internet television, and so Anthony
Speaker 4: Flacco was discussing Road to Hell, which is an incredible
Speaker 4: book on this program March thirteenth, Anthony would like to
Speaker 4: discuss Road to Hell and a book that I think
Speaker 4: occurred a little bit before that Checklist for Murder and
Speaker 4: Checklist for Murder I happened to buy a couple of
Speaker 4: years ago. And Anthony was saying that there is this
Speaker 4: basic connection between the two books, and we can talk
Speaker 4: about that. But he'd like to discuss two books in
Speaker 4: the one hour, and I'm open to that. That would
Speaker 4: be great. On March twentieth, finally we get Catherine Ramsley
Speaker 4: and talking about Human Predator. This is another person very
Speaker 4: much like Janet McClelland, but one of the biggest true
Speaker 4: crime authors in terms of best selling authors and authority
Speaker 4: on serial killers, a serial killer expert and well renowned
Speaker 4: in America and throughout the world. Catherine Ramsland with Human
Speaker 4: Predator March twenty seventh. Friend of the Program are Berry Flowers.
Speaker 4: This guy is prolific. I mean, he's got another book
Speaker 4: called Dynamics of Murder. I'm sure by the time the
Speaker 4: program comes up March twenty seventh to have another book.
Speaker 4: So this guy is a great author and a good
Speaker 4: friend of the program. R Berry Flowers with Dynamics of
Speaker 4: murder on April third. Finally, we have Stacy Dietrich and
Speaker 4: her book Searching for Sandra. Stacy Dietrich is a law
Speaker 4: enforcement professional from way way back, among other things.
Speaker 3: Author.
Speaker 4: I think, I definitely believe she writes fiction and nonfiction.
Speaker 4: But her book Searching for Sandra that Stacy Dietrich April third,
Speaker 4: on April tenth, very interesting case and story, Karen, I'm
Speaker 4: going to have to get the pronunciation of some of
Speaker 4: these names. Skill Sea, I probably butchered that. But anyway,
Speaker 4: kidnapped by the cartel. And this is a this is
Speaker 4: a fictional book, so I'm going to warn people, but
Speaker 4: the fiction is warranted because we're talking about a drug cartel.
Speaker 4: We're talking about you know, when we talked about I've
Speaker 4: just talked with m William Phelps. You talk to law enforcement,
Speaker 4: you talk to victims' families, you get to talk to
Speaker 4: the serial killer. I don't think you'd want to talk
Speaker 4: to or be able to talk to some of these
Speaker 4: people and involved in some of these stories, like a
Speaker 4: drug cartel and say South America. You you know, you
Speaker 4: may interview them, but you just may not make it
Speaker 4: home home after that interview. So we're talking about the
Speaker 4: non feasibility of being able to do what authors do
Speaker 4: in true crime, and that is talking about the sources
Speaker 4: and being able to speak candidly and then be able
Speaker 4: to write about the information that you uncovered. So I'm
Speaker 4: you know, I'm not certain that that's exactly the reason
Speaker 4: for all the fictionalization, but regardless, we're going to be
Speaker 4: talking about the true aspects of kidnapped by the cartel
Speaker 4: and Karen Skioskia Sciosa and her connection to this incredible story.
Speaker 4: On April seventeenth, we have a gentleman named Paul Guzo.
Speaker 4: He's a journalist and author, and we're going to talk
Speaker 4: about Tampa Bay organized crime. And now Paul Guzo has
Speaker 4: been involved in uncovering a serious amount of information and
Speaker 4: solving one case, if not too and he's going to
Speaker 4: be talking about as an insider Tampa Bay or organized
Speaker 4: crime and some shocking collusion and she canery by officials
Speaker 4: and of course organized crime. On April twenty fourth, we're
Speaker 4: going to be speaking with Frank C. Giradeau and his
Speaker 4: book Name Dropper, which is investigating the Clark Rockefeller mystery.
Speaker 4: And so that sounds very interesting, and that's why we
Speaker 4: have this sort of different variety of interesting guests and
Speaker 4: authors that are going to be coming up from now
Speaker 4: in February to May. We also I'm in negotiations with
Speaker 4: Katie Beers with her incredible book Buried Memories, So hopefully
Speaker 4: Michael Wright will get back to me and we will
Speaker 4: set up an interview with Katie, so that will take
Speaker 4: us right till May or so. And I'm getting suggestions
Speaker 4: all the time, which I appreciate from true murder fans,
Speaker 4: so from authors themselves and publicists often, and so hopefully
Speaker 4: we're going to continue with this kind of quality, with
Speaker 4: this kind of variety and this kind of looking at
Speaker 4: murder from every possible conceivable angle and perspective. I've spoken
Speaker 4: to a person that listened to the program. He was
Speaker 4: a juror on a major, fascinating murder trial, and I'm
Speaker 4: hopefully going to be able to have him on the program.
Speaker 4: He was just involved in a New Hampshire panel talking
Speaker 4: about the death penalty. As a juror, he was involved
Speaker 4: in voting for the death penalty, but in his conscience
Speaker 4: and in his mind, he is against the death penalty.
Speaker 4: So it would make for a very very again interesting perspective,
Speaker 4: a former juror on a high profile case that America
Speaker 4: was fixated on for quite a while, and this person
Speaker 4: coming away with information about how he was. I'll let
Speaker 4: him explain it anyway. It's a fascinating story. But the
Speaker 4: idea that we may have this gentleman on who was
Speaker 4: a juror at this trial and then now has this
Speaker 4: cause that he's involved in is again it's a fascinating
Speaker 4: story in itself. And I told him as much. I said, geez,
Speaker 4: that's a great story. You might want to think about
Speaker 4: getting that writing that or have you know, thinking about
Speaker 4: getting this story published. It's a very very interesting case.
Speaker 4: So hopefully we can have him on and he could
Speaker 4: talk about his experience and at the trial and then
Speaker 4: now with his cause is to against the death penalty.
Speaker 4: So that's what will be coming up in the near future.
Speaker 4: I want to thank everybody that does contact me. It's
Speaker 4: really is encouraging and very gratifying for me to have
Speaker 4: people give me their input regarding the program. Quite a
Speaker 4: few people have made suggestions. I have seems to be
Speaker 4: quite a few fans in Australia and I have somebody
Speaker 4: that I'm just sort of avoiding and not responding to
Speaker 4: their email about Skype. So I have to I'm a
Speaker 4: bit of a lud out, so I have to get
Speaker 4: on that and be able to start interviewing people from
Speaker 4: other countries. Australia is very interesting and of course England.
Speaker 4: I have interviewed some guests from Canada about probably about
Speaker 4: eight authors or so. But there are other other places
Speaker 4: in the world where books are published, and now with
Speaker 4: the published on demand and ebook books through Crime Books,
Speaker 4: any kind of books are available everywhere, and with a
Speaker 4: program like this again, the audience is everywhere and anybody
Speaker 4: can tune in to the program, so and definitely I
Speaker 4: think I should delve into some other murders by other
Speaker 4: killers and try to get those authors on and interview them.
Speaker 4: So that's be my project for the near near future.
Speaker 4: I want to thank everybody for listening to the program
Speaker 4: this evening. You've been listening to True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host Dan Zupansky. Tune in next week. Good Night,