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<v Speaker 1>Hey, folks, we're recording at chain linksmark On and joining

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<v Speaker 1>me today is Jacques Bouchang, who is the CEO of Halburn. Jack,

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<v Speaker 1>great to have you.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me, Jack.

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<v Speaker 1>I know of Halburn, but for the folks who don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>tell us about what Halburn does.

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<v Speaker 2>So we are a cyber security company fully dedicated to

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<v Speaker 2>the WHIPS three and financial services space. We have been

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<v Speaker 2>established in twenty nineteen, so we have been here for

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<v Speaker 2>six years now, sure, and we provide the professional services

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<v Speaker 2>security services to our customers, which are small Web three

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<v Speaker 2>but also large banks like UBS.

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<v Speaker 1>Ority Security and custody is such a big pillar in

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<v Speaker 1>the crypto industry, so what you're doing is so critical

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<v Speaker 1>for this infrastructure of the market. So are you you

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned like some of the banks you're working with. Are

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<v Speaker 1>you also working with crypto exchanges?

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<v Speaker 2>We do work with entire I would say ecosystem of

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<v Speaker 2>Web three and financial services. So we are essentially at

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<v Speaker 2>the intersection of on chain and off chain cyber security services.

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<v Speaker 2>You know a lot of those hacks which are happening

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<v Speaker 2>on chain, our lateral move coming from off chain. That's

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<v Speaker 2>why you need that competence when you speak with a

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<v Speaker 2>provider of cyber security. We are also at the intersection

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<v Speaker 2>of trap FI and DeFi. So that's why we are

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<v Speaker 2>uniquely positioned in that landscape.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm assuming you work with many different multiple blockchains

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<v Speaker 1>and projects we do.

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<v Speaker 2>We do cover We work with a lot of layer one,

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<v Speaker 2>layer two as well. We do a lot of secure

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<v Speaker 2>by design where we try to shift cybersecurity left. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's not an after thought, but it's really from the beginning,

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<v Speaker 2>at the inception of a project. We love to be

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<v Speaker 2>involved because that's the only way to have something very

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<v Speaker 2>robust in terms of cyber security.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, so tell us a bit about how you're monitoring

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<v Speaker 1>blockchain transactions and monitoring transactions on exchanges. You have a

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<v Speaker 1>software setup and you plug into those respective sources.

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<v Speaker 2>You ask a very interesting question. We don't, unlike in

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<v Speaker 2>the traditional cyber security space, we're monitoring because when you

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<v Speaker 2>monitor or you can still do what we call you

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<v Speaker 2>can intervene. You can do incident response on chain. If

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<v Speaker 2>something is happening, your money is gone. Yeah, so there

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<v Speaker 2>is no such a thing as an instrumental monitoring. You

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<v Speaker 2>can do forensic after the fact. So we prefer to

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<v Speaker 2>do what I call preventive cyber security, Okay, to avoid

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<v Speaker 2>that the bad guy can settle on your smart contract

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<v Speaker 2>or on your chain. So that's a big thing.

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<v Speaker 1>So that definitely makes sense. So you're preventive, you're getting

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<v Speaker 1>ahead of those things happening. Are you using I'm assuming

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<v Speaker 1>you have human beings monitoring things that are using AI

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<v Speaker 1>to monitor as well.

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<v Speaker 2>So we are using So it's mainly the skills of

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<v Speaker 2>our people, but it's a combination. It's a man machine partnership.

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<v Speaker 2>So we use plenty of AI tools, plenty of automation.

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<v Speaker 2>At the end of the day, what makes the difference

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<v Speaker 2>of the skills of our team?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh? Absolutely. And in regards to what trends you're seeing

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<v Speaker 1>and security, what are some of the common threats that

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<v Speaker 1>have appeared over the past year or so.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So you know, we publish almost a monthly report.

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<v Speaker 2>We call that the Top DeFi hack okay, yeah, and voints,

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<v Speaker 2>and we try to track every hack above one million dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>And just to give you one number, for instance, in

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<v Speaker 2>May of this year, the total Top Defive HACT was

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<v Speaker 2>two hundred and thirty six million dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>In in July it was one hundred and twelve million dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>So what we are observing is that the hacks are

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<v Speaker 2>still massive on DeFi. So now fast forward ward, imagine

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<v Speaker 2>now the banks doing plenty of things on chain, they'd

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<v Speaker 2>better be safe.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Do you feel most of the security vulnerabilities come

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<v Speaker 1>from a human element or a code element or both.

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<v Speaker 2>So the weak link will always be the human.

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<v Speaker 3>Human That's yeah, that's that's the absolute rule of some

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<v Speaker 3>And one of the massive hacks that happened in the

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<v Speaker 3>beginning of the year was because of.

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<v Speaker 2>An insider of thread, so inside of shread a Hogue

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<v Speaker 2>developer in that case, Hogue developer or a key thread.

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<v Speaker 2>When you are working in web three and when you

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<v Speaker 2>have this big total value look on chain, they can

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<v Speaker 2>go away with the money. So still still people. But

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<v Speaker 2>of course you need to have a waterproof or bullet

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<v Speaker 2>proof software and this is those kind of what I

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<v Speaker 2>call continuous implementation, continuous and follow up of the software.

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<v Speaker 2>Cyber security and reducing the vulnerability is a key element

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<v Speaker 2>of our work.

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<v Speaker 1>That definitely makes sense. And you know, and do you

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<v Speaker 1>feel your job is going to get a lot harder

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<v Speaker 1>with the rise of AI, different AI agents where bad

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<v Speaker 1>actors could potentially users. AI agents attack different blockchains.

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<v Speaker 2>So you're asking your question is about the weapon and

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<v Speaker 2>the shield. AI is both weapon and shield. So I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think it makes our work harder. It makes our

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<v Speaker 2>work even more tech enabled. Sure, that's a big difference, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So we need to have and we do have at

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<v Speaker 2>alborne AI in every corner of what we do for

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<v Speaker 2>the smart contract review, for the code assessment, but also

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<v Speaker 2>then for creating the right reporting and so on and

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<v Speaker 2>so forth. So we are we have a continuous utilization

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<v Speaker 2>of AI modules and we are using a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>AI orchestration. But at the end of the day, as

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<v Speaker 2>I said, it is the shield part.

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<v Speaker 1>Part.

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<v Speaker 2>Adversaries are using the weapons part of of course, with

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<v Speaker 2>deep fakes or with spare fishing, which are even more convincing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is getting much more sophisticated the threats. So

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<v Speaker 1>let's say your team is working with a bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>crypto exchanges and traify institutions. When you identify a vulnerability,

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<v Speaker 1>how fast you get the information out to these folks

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<v Speaker 1>saying hey, we recognize something's wrong with this blockchain, watch out.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we need to move as fast as possible. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>We discovered altogether multiple zero days, you know, zero days

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<v Speaker 2>you need to act immediately. So we have a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of critical vulnerability that we discover and we make that

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<v Speaker 2>available immediately to the customer so that they can remedy.

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<v Speaker 2>And when we do that, we give them advises how

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<v Speaker 2>to remedy, and AI is used also in that phase

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<v Speaker 2>to define the best possible remedy given the context and

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<v Speaker 2>the environment of the client.

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<v Speaker 1>Got it. Is it too early to think that quantum

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<v Speaker 1>might be an issue now or in the coming year.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, of course, everybody's talking about it. Yeah, body's talking

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<v Speaker 2>about the fact that it will break our essay, it

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<v Speaker 2>will bake break encryption. Yeah, let's see.

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<v Speaker 1>Still too early, let's see. But at the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>like you said, it's like with AI, it's the shield

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<v Speaker 1>and the threat, right because you can use quantum computer,

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<v Speaker 1>but you can use.

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<v Speaker 2>Quantum computer to encrypt at a level that nobody will

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<v Speaker 2>be able to crack that code.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to get your thoughts on

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<v Speaker 1>what's happening in the broader crypto industry. We see that

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<v Speaker 1>there's a race for chokenization. We're putting real world assets

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<v Speaker 1>on chain. What are your thoughts on that and that

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<v Speaker 1>market growing?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I believe so straight Threet recently published document

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<v Speaker 2>in October, Yeah, which says that currently institutional investor of

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<v Speaker 2>something like close to six percent of their total investment

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<v Speaker 2>which are crypto or digital asset of any form. And

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<v Speaker 2>the fourth is that in three years it will be

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<v Speaker 2>three exact, so more than fifteen persons. So adoption will raise.

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<v Speaker 2>I believe that some class of digital asset for insan

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<v Speaker 2>private equity one will come, will take off much faster

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<v Speaker 2>than the other. But I also believe that the cyber

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<v Speaker 2>security challenge for banks to custody all that will be huge. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great point because one of the things I've

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<v Speaker 1>been thinking about you really have to trust the party

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<v Speaker 1>that's toorgnizing that they actually have the asset in their

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<v Speaker 1>bank or vault.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, there is no CSD, there is no central security

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<v Speaker 2>depository anymore. Yeah, you know, custody today it's an easy

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<v Speaker 2>game for a bank, right, because what is it? It

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<v Speaker 2>is a legal game. Okay, you need it's a pointer

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<v Speaker 2>toward an item which is at the custody at a

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<v Speaker 2>central security depository. In the future, they are fully accountable

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<v Speaker 2>and responsible for the custody of any digital asset. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>And it's a new discipline. It's a technical discipline, so

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's not anymore that legal process discipline. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>pure technical discipline. So it's a it's a big it's

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<v Speaker 2>a big it's a big challenge, and banks are moving

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<v Speaker 2>into that direction and we help them, We support them

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<v Speaker 2>making the right assessment of their custody strategy.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, and on that note, are you working with stable

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<v Speaker 1>coin issuers as well? The stable We got a genius

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<v Speaker 1>Act pass here in the United States. A lot of

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<v Speaker 1>issuers have stable coins, you know, hitting the market now.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, so we are definitely working with the issue

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<v Speaker 2>of stable coins. So we used to work with Circle,

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<v Speaker 2>with coin Base, with the likes of those guys. We are.

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<v Speaker 2>By the way, in Europe there is also a big

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<v Speaker 2>initiative from nine banks, the consortion of nine banks for Pride,

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<v Speaker 2>the stable coin packed to the euro and one of

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<v Speaker 2>those banks is the key customer of ours. We are

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<v Speaker 2>doing the custody for them, so absolutely we are. We

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<v Speaker 2>are deeply involved. We are about to release the paper

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<v Speaker 2>about the risk framework for stable coin.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. Yeah, so much security needed for all these different

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<v Speaker 1>types of assets.

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<v Speaker 2>And you are you're hitting a very good point. Custody

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<v Speaker 2>of a bitcoin is not like the custody of a

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<v Speaker 2>stable coin, which is not like the custody of the

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<v Speaker 2>togonized equity. Those are different challenges and everybody needs to

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<v Speaker 2>be ready for those challenges.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, so tell us about about your road map. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>assuming it involves prepping for all these different types of assets, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I agree.

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<v Speaker 2>So absolutely, so our road map is definitely so. First,

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<v Speaker 2>we see the demand ticking up for large banks for

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<v Speaker 2>everything which is digital assets. So that's clearly the understanding

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<v Speaker 2>this adoption. Right, they are going into that direction, but

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<v Speaker 2>they need to have solid cybersecurity foundations. So that's what

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<v Speaker 2>that's a key road map for us because we need

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<v Speaker 2>to adjust to the customer requirements in that sense. Second,

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<v Speaker 2>we mentioned that we integrate AI too links in every

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<v Speaker 2>step of our value chain. It's really key because as

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<v Speaker 2>I said, it's part of the shield, and we are

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<v Speaker 2>the shield. We are holding the shield, so we need

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<v Speaker 2>to have the AI component. And the third component is

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<v Speaker 2>really to be able because you know what in the future,

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<v Speaker 2>define will be part of the supply chain of those banks. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>and we are the I would say the in betweener.

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<v Speaker 2>We are the glue between because we understand both worlds.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, absolutely with regards to legislation, and here in

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<v Speaker 1>Europe you have a legislation. Here in the United States,

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<v Speaker 1>we're waiting for the clariac. How has legislation helped you

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<v Speaker 1>and your company in Europe? And are you are you

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<v Speaker 1>looking forward to the Claritia getting pass here?

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<v Speaker 2>So, first and foremost, I believe that the Clarity Act

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<v Speaker 2>is an incredible piece of legislation because it allows a

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<v Speaker 2>dynamic transition from a token being considered as equity then

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<v Speaker 2>moving toward the commodity. So they have put a certain

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<v Speaker 2>level of dynamic in their regulation in the US that

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<v Speaker 2>is far superior to what we have in Europe. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think they will be ahead of the pack because

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<v Speaker 2>of that new US regulation, but also for the Genius Act,

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<v Speaker 2>which has also set set up a framework which will

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<v Speaker 2>enable the US to be really leading the pack. So

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<v Speaker 2>I am a little bit concerned about your being lagging

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<v Speaker 2>behind with MICA as opposed to Clarity Act. But to

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<v Speaker 2>your point, yes, in any cases, the two types of

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<v Speaker 2>legislation accelerate the demand, accelerate the appetite of the traditional

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<v Speaker 2>financial institution to go down the road of a digital asset.

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<v Speaker 2>I was speaking to a very large bank yesterday and

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<v Speaker 2>they told me they are about to do the first

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<v Speaker 2>issues of equity on chain. So that would be equity

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<v Speaker 2>for a big corporation, so purely issued on chain. So

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<v Speaker 2>when you go into that space, you'd better have a

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<v Speaker 2>rock solid infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, and I hope that you know what your

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<v Speaker 1>services that you're providing. That folks are starting to think

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<v Speaker 1>about these things and security first, because it would be

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<v Speaker 1>very detrimental to the crypto acid class and industry. Oh yes,

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<v Speaker 1>we had banks or big institutions losing assets.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's why I was mentioning or report about

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<v Speaker 2>the major hacks because imagine two hundred and thirty six

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<v Speaker 2>million in May lost without any bank. Can you imagine

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<v Speaker 2>once a bank as is nay as ear name or

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<v Speaker 2>on that list of top acts, what's impact? Yes, So

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<v Speaker 2>that's a key area of concern of mine. Okay, how

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<v Speaker 2>can we make sure that it's so I would say

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<v Speaker 2>robust that such a thing will never happen, right, and

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<v Speaker 2>we hope to be a numbled but a contributor to

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<v Speaker 2>that level of security that is needed.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh absolutely, Jacques, amazing, I love that what you guys

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<v Speaker 1>are doing. Like I said, you're a critical pillar in

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<v Speaker 1>this infrastructure of this market. So looking forward to the

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<v Speaker 1>future updates. Thank you for joining me, Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>This episode is brought to you by Proppy, which is

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<v Speaker 1>leading the charge in putting real estate on chain. Propy

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<v Speaker 1>is a game changer. You can buy and sell real

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<v Speaker 1>estate with cryptocurrencies using the Property platform, which is powered

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<v Speaker 1>by a blockchain of course, and they have a native

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00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.639
<v Speaker 1>token call pro and I've been an investor in the

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<v Speaker 1>Propy token since twenty eighteen. So Propy is a licensed

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<v Speaker 1>Web three pioneer operating since twenty seventeen. They have facilitated

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<v Speaker 1>over four billion dollars in transactions. They're putting titles and

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<v Speaker 1>deeds on chain. They use Coinbase for their crypto escro service.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is a great platform. And once again they

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<v Speaker 1>are ahead of the curve when it comes to putting

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<v Speaker 1>real estate on chain. And they just launch a great

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<v Speaker 1>campaign where you can earn some of the Propy tokens

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<v Speaker 1>and it's simply by doing tasks such as sharing their

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<v Speaker 1>vision video, signing up and inviting a friend, and much

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<v Speaker 1>more so. If you'd like to learn more about Propy,

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<v Speaker 1>visit the link in the description