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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm

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Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by doctor Katherine Ramsland

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and Tracy Allman, here to talk to us about their

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brand new book, The Serial Killers Apprentice, the true story

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of how Houston's deadliest murderer turned a kid into a

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killing machine. Catherine, Tracy, thank you for joining us to

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We're happy to be here.

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: We're just so thrilled that the two of you seem

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to be getting along pretty well for you murder here

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strong opinions.

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Speaker 5: I will say praise he is very patient because when

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I'm co writing with someone, I have deadlines and I

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want these things to and she was quick with things

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that I needed the research. She's really one of the

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best co writers I've had.

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Speaker 3: That is high praise.

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Speaker 6: But I think to finish that thought, I think that

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both of us were incredibly passionate about this story and

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how important it was, and so there was a lot

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of working side by side to make sure that happened.

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The best world past.

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Speaker 3: So tell us how this partnership came about. What got

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the story on your radar, and what made you decide

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that Catherine was the best person to bring in for

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this project.

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Speaker 6: And so basically, I had been working on a documentary

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series for NBC about John Wayne Gazeho's called John Wayne

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Gacy Devil in Disguise, and at one point I had

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discovered that he had accomplices. We'd always thought John Wayne

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Gacy was a lone wolf, but he was not. When

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I started to think about his accomplices, I had an

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invitation to talk with Elma Wayne Henley, and I took

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it and I called him or he called me. We connected.

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I said, I've spoken with your mother in the past.

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I had considered the possibility of interviewing her for another

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series that I worked on as a producer, but I

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had never spoken with him. And when I started to

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ask him, what is the accomplice dynamic that you could

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possibly see for John Wayne Gaycy, he started to explain

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his accomplice dynamic with Dean Coral, And as I was

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listening to this, it made me realize, wait, that's not

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an accomplice. You were basically sucked in by somebody who

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groomed you, and that upset me because I detest grooming.

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I followed these cases because I'm really upset that these

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sex trafficking networks from the nineteen seventies never really got

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appropriate attention, and I really wanted to bring them to

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the four. And I was working at the time with

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Catherine on a BTK documentary for Annie, and I had

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heard through the grapevine that she was also interested in

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Elma Wayne Henley.

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Speaker 5: I knew that she was a.

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Speaker 6: Stute professional and looked forward to approaching her and seeing

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if she would want to work together, and sure enough,

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she did.

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Speaker 5: My interest in Henley crosses over hers because mine comes

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from a long ways back. And I had initially accepted

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the original true crime book from Jack Olsen, The Mammoth

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Candy as that's the way things happened. And then around

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two thousand and five, maybe I saw a documentary where

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Wayne Henley was being interviewed about his artwork, and I

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thought my opinion might change because that guy doesn't seem

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at all like the guy that was presented in Olson's book,

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and I developed an interest in wanting one day to

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talk with him. So after we did the BTK documentary,

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the production team said to me they wanted to follow

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up with another kind of thing like that, and they

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named three people that I thought, none of which were feasible.

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But I said, but I want Wayne Henley and they said, oh,

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Tracy Ollman is already talking to him. And I said,

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if she'll introduce me, we can get going. And that's

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exactly how it happened.

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Speaker 3: There are probably going to be some people who are

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not familiar with the name Dean Coral and the moniker

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the candy Man case, So just very briefly, can you

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give us a quick rundown of who Dean Coral? David

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Brooks and Elma Wayne Henley are.

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Speaker 5: Dean Coral known as the Candyman because he actually did

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make candy with his mother. They had a candy factory

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and retail business, and he would use that to hand

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out candy two kids in the street. He'd size up

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young boys and then invite them back to play pool

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or go on as motorcycle, or go to the beach

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with him and whatnot. And he became like the big

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brother of the neighborhood, the hangout, the place they could

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hang out. But what he was really doing was looking

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for potential victims. And he started with David Brooks, who

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was I think about twelve years old when he first

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met Dean Coral, and Dean was thirty. But Brooks came

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from a broken home where neither parents seemed to have

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much to do with him. So Coral became a father

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figure to him very quickly, gave him a place to say,

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gave him money. Pretty soon was approaching him about sexual favors,

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giving him five or ten bucks for it, and then

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getting him to help with bringing in boys that Coral

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could actually torture, sexually, torture, murder, and Brooks would then

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be part of the burial crew, and I believe that

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Wayne was brought in as a potential victim. David Brooks

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brought him in. David Brooks walked up to him, befriended

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him and told him about Korrel, showed him the money

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he could make, and brought him over. And there's a

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very harrowing scene in the book of where it looks

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like Chorrel's moving in to actually bind him and turn

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him into a victim, but he says that he told

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his mother, so he was able to escape. Then. I

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think this is my speculation because Wayne was a very friendly,

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approachable kid who had a lot of connections in the

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Houston neighborhood. I think Coral saw this as another and

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better potential accomplice because Brooks was a geeky, awkward kid

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who kind of asocial, not really very good at doing this,

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and he thought that Wayne Henley would be better. So

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I think that's how the three of them ended up

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becoming this team killers. Henley was leveraged into it. Brooks

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was leveraged as well in terms of their need, their vulnerability,

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their gullibility. If you want to add anything to that.

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Speaker 6: Tracy, I think that all jibes with my experience. So yeah,

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I think that you've got a good explanation of what happened.

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Speaker 5: And what Kral was doing was leveraging this idea that

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there was a sex trafficking network and that he was

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part of it, and that if they did not comply,

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this network was going to be aware of it and

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was going to there would be some dire consequences for them,

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but if they did comply, they could get rich.

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Speaker 3: Tracy, you had started by telling us that this was

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part of an investigation into John Wayne Gacy. Can you

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explain a little bit more that John Wayne Gacy connection

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and the sex trafficking ring? Then it's the syndicate. I

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had no idea about any of this. I had never

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heard any of this. This was fascinating and harrowing. Can

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you go ahead and get into a little more detail

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about that.

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Speaker 6: But it is harrowing and it's very disturbing to know

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that such a massive sex trafficking ring did exist, not

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just in our country, but it was worldwide. What had

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happened with John Wayne Gacy. I was approached at one

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point by somebody who had worked as a managing editor

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at the Chicago Reader, Alison true, and she said, we

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were looking into a property in the city of Chicago

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where John Wayne Gacy worked as a manager, and we're

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wondering if there are more bodies at that property. And

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I thought that should be an easy answer. If there are,

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they would have taken them out, and if they're not,

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then we should have some evidence that somebody looked into it.

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And as we looked into that, we realized, holy cow,

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not only does it look like every report shows there

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are going to be more remains in the yard of

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this property, but then you had to figure out why

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wouldn't police go ahead and take these remains out of

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the ground. So it was ten years that we spent

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trying to figure out the answer to that question. And ultimately,

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as we looked into it, we discovered a man by

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the name of John David Norman. And John Norman was

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an individual who had started a lot of child pornography

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and sex trafficking out of San Diego, California, and he

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had had a multitude of arrests over years where he

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just kept being sprung out of prison and we couldn't

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figure out why he never stayed in prison. He was

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an incorrigible repeat offender. In sex crimes, when there are

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probably a variety of reasons why he didn't. But then

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you start seeing he's in Dallas in nineteen seventy three

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when Dean Coral says he's got this syndicate. He's arrested

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four days later because an individual from his organization in

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Dallas calls police and says, I was supposed to be

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shipped to Dean Coral and he was horrified. So where

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there's smoke, there's fire. And if this individual said that

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was his concern, he knows it from the inside. They'd

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go to John David Norman's house and they find literally

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tons of child pornography and all sorts of of different

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paraphernalia that would show this is much wider or organization.

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There were potentially fifty to one hundred thousand names on

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lists that had been compiled by Norman. Norman is arrested,

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pays his bond, and leaves Dallas for Chicago, where he's

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put up, and he starts crossing paths with John Wayne Gacy.

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And once you see that John Wayne Gacy and John

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David Norman they share people in common. In some of

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John Wayne Gacy's pacelips, he's paying a man named Phil Pasky,

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and Pasky tends to be referred to as John David

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Norman's right hand man. A lot of these people that

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are in sex trafficking, they hang together. They've got a

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double bind, and especially when it comes to men who

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are attracted to boys and young men. And so when

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you look at John Wayne Gacy, you start to see

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him with accomplices and with a variety of victims. It

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makes sense that he's more in a kind of pimp

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position than he is how he was portrayed as a

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lone wolf, as somebody who was just evil and somebody

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who went to his death to pay for his crimes.

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Speaker 5: But then when you start.

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Speaker 6: Really seeing both of these pictures where you've got John

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Wayne Gacy as part of a much larger network of

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sex traffic hearing people have to perform all sorts of

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roles in order to facilitate this, to empower this John

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Wayne Gacy having six and seven felonious sexual assaults before

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he's actually arrested, and he's not arrested in Chicago where

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he lives. He's arrested in a suburb. When it comes

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to Deaned Coral, this is probably a person that is

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rubbing shoulders with people that have some sort of power.

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The victims that he's taking are generally from a two

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and a half mile squared area in Houston called Houston Heights,

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And every report filed by a parent has the same

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response as you've got in Chicago to John Wayne Gacy's victims.

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Your child's are runaway, your child is probably doing drugs.

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It was putting the onus back on the parents. You've

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done the wrong thing. There's a lot of shaming going on,

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and nobody's really got answers until these things blow up.

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And at the time they dug up twenty eight bodies,

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I think twenty seven at the outset. But this was

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the largest mass murder in US history at the time.

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When you think about how could that happen just under

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somebody's nose, it doesn't. There are multiple people involved and

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multiple people who end up being culpable, and that for

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me was just horrifying, more horrifying than if you just

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had a lone wolf.

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Speaker 5: And I think Terracy mentioned something important here that I didn't.

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You say choral. Maybe people haven't heard of Kral, but

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in nineteen seventy three, this was the worst mass murder

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case before they're even using the word serial killer, and

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they're stunned by all these bodies. Nineteen you're seventeen found

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in a boat shed, six more on a beach, and

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four more out of the lake. It was just astonishing,

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and probably more than they even were able to exhum.

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Nobody knew what to make of a case like this.

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It just defied any ideas that this is before Gaycy.

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By the time Gaysey rolls around, we've had the Coral case.

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They had one in California, Roun Corona who had murdered

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twenty five migrants and put them into mass graves. But

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that wasn't anything like picking boys at a big, basic

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neighborhood and the police doing nothing about it.

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Speaker 2: One thing you referenced a moment ago was the delay

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in searching the property that Gaysey was associated with. What

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led to the delay.

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Speaker 6: So you have this property, which is in a suburban

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neighborhood in Chicago, and you have at least two victims

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where the parents have said the last person my child

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saw was his employer, John Wayne gay There is no

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follow up from what I know. It's just based upon

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John Wayne Gacy's word that he absolutely has not seen

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this individual. He doesn't have any of his belongings onny

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victim's belongings which he collected avidly. They're putting the onus

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on this person who's a socio sexual serial killer to

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tell them honestly, Whereas this individual, instead of ever going

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into the property doing the search, they just take his

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word for it each and every time, every time that

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he's committing a sexual assault. He says that kid's lying,

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and they try to dispel responsibility by saying, you know

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how records were done in the nineteen seventies, we didn't

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have access to digital records.

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Speaker 5: They actually did.

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Speaker 6: There's just no way you can make an excuse for

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that many bodies piling up in one location and not

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having police intervention. The only reason there was police intervention

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in my research is that it was a different police

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department that had not had any contact with John Wayne Gacy.

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It was a child who went missing that was a

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personal friends child of the police chief in displays, and

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so he has a great motivation to get to the

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bottom of things. While they're trying to figure out what's

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going on in this house. They are not taking no

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for an answer. Whereas you start to see how politically

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connected John Wayne Gacy was and how much people would

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defend his quote unquote honor.

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Speaker 3: In Chicago, you had mentioned that there was a list

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with literally thousands of names on it. What happened to

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the list?

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Speaker 6: So basically, this list is given to Dallas Police after

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they find it at John David Norman's property. The list

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is reviewed and it's found that the list incorporates a

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number of elite people, people in power, judges, and they

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give the list over to the State Apartment because two

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of the people listed are members of the State Department.

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The list goes to their council, and a couple of

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years later, in nineteen seventy seven, when they're reviewing this

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as part of a senatorial report, they say that they

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have destroyed the list without making a copy because there

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was some flooding, and so the list regenerated in Cook

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County jail. So ultimately, John David Norman makes it up

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to Chicago, can't help himself. He's almost immediately arrested for

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assaulting other young men, and he ends up in jail

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and the list begins again. He gets access to the

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law library and starts communicating and sending out a newsletter

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of all of his new cadets to at least five

295
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thousand other people, and that list is ultimately confiscated. But

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he couldn't have operated in the law library without having

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some facilitation.

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Speaker 3: We know that David Brooks died in twenty twenty, but

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Elmer Wayne Henley is still alive, and he was willing

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to work with you and talk about this accomplice dynamic.

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Can you both talk a little bit about how many

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meetings you had with Henley, what did your interview sessions

303
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look like, and how did this all eventually shake out

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in terms of the interview process.

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Speaker 6: Basically, when I called Amo Wayne Henley and I said

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I wanted to know about the accomplice dynamic, and he

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started to tell me his anecdotal experience, I thought to myself,

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this strikes me as grooming. This is not somebody who's

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fully participating. Luckily, not long after that I met Catherine.

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One thing that he made me promise was that I

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was never going to interview him about the murders. And

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I kept that promise, but I did not promise that

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Catherine when I made the introduction, and so Katherine was

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going to act in our relationship as somebody who was

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going to be giving him something like therapy. While she

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would be interviewing him, she would also be helping him

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understand his memories, whereas for me, mine were strictly journalistic questions.

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Speaker 5: There was a certain amount of finesse to get around

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his resistance. It initially was, and it was on the phone.

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I didn't do this space to face. It was on

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the phone. We first started through letters. I wrote to

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him very similar the way I started with Dennis Rader.

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Wrote to him, talked about what I wanted, relied on

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his relationship and his trust in Tracy, that she trusted me,

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and that maybe that would transfer. And he immediately said,

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when we first talked on the phone, I will help

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you because I want what happened to me to count

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for something. But I'm not going to change my mind

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about what I feel. I am complicit, I'm guilty. I

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don't want you to do anything that would mitigate that.

331
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So I listen, let him talk, and little by little

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I would say, would you consider reading this piece or

333
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something that I was writing or thinking about working on

334
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regarding the case, And he would and then he'd come

335
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back and he'd talk about it. And it did evolve

336
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within a couple of months into more like therapy, which

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he's been in prison fifty years and never had any

338
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kind of therapeutic intervention. Wow, And suddenly I think he

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saw me as a valuable resource for him, and we

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began to have some very long Sometimes he was in

341
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one facility where he could be on the phone for hours,

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and all I had to say that the others was

343
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I'm talking to my therapist, even though I wasn't officially

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and I will like to say, I'm not a clinical psychologist.

345
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I have background as a therapist, and so I wasn't

346
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officially his therapist, but I was doing some amount of

347
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therapeutic intervention for him. And as a result, he started

348
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processing things in a very different way and thinking differently

349
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about his own case and his vulnerability as a teenager

350
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at the time fifteen years old when he first was

351
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really leveraged into it, and began to understand that maybe

352
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there was some mitigation here that helped him a lot.

353
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I think to begin to look at his case differently

354
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and to talk to us.

355
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Speaker 2: Let me ask a couple of logistics questions here for

356
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a second, Catherine, you were not limited in how long

357
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you could talk in other words, the meter wasn't running,

358
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which it often is when someone's in cars. Rat were

359
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you permitted to record these lengthy calls?

360
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Speaker 5: I was permitted by him. I did not ask any

361
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prison person.

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Speaker 2: Right, but he knew you were recording. And obviously there's

363
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a tremendous exchange of information back and forth, and.

364
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Speaker 5: You're always aware that the prison is recording stuff and

365
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they have access to everything you're saying. You always know

366
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that as well. The same thing happens with any offender

367
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I'm talking to in prison. So that's why Dennis Raider

368
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and I always use codes. But Henley didn't want to.

369
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He said, no, no one's ever stopped me from saying

370
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whatever I want to say, and there weren't any, as

371
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,279
far as I know, any repercussions about it. I asked

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him permission. We talked for a while before I actually

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started recording, so I did not record everything that was said,

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but at the time he gave him permission that I

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began to record it.

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Speaker 3: So, Catherine, how similar was this process to the work

377
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that you did with Dennis Raider. Not at all time,

378
00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:36,200
Not at all, Okay.

379
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Speaker 5: Because Raider was proud of his murders. He's a serial killer,

380
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and Henley was horrified. He had wanted to be a

381
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minister as a kid. He carried a bible in his

382
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shirt pocket. This is not somebody who ever thought about

383
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killing anybody, and here he is being part of this

384
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killing crew. And also he is more articulate because he

385
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,279
has self taught. He does a lot of reading. He

386
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,240
has an IQ of one twenty six. I believe, very

387
00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:10,799
different experience from talking to an offender who really wants

388
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,200
to talk about now Dennis Raider, I will give him

389
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,359
some credit. Was reflective, wanted to think about why did

390
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,079
I do this? But he had certain limitations in terms

391
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,839
of what we were trying to do with that particular book.

392
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,960
He wanted to record his dark journey, as he called it.

393
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,799
That was not Henley's intent by any means. Henley wanted

394
00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:36,000
this to be something that would be useful in a

395
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:41,200
broader way, so that it's like a cautionary tale rather

396
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than just an autobiography. So very different.

397
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Speaker 3: Would you classify as ininctive for him.

398
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Speaker 5: With redemptive has religious connotations, I'm not sure I'd say

399
00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:57,000
redemptive so much as he now has a story that

400
00:22:57,279 --> 00:23:00,319
he can be remembered by in a way that isn't

401
00:23:00,839 --> 00:23:04,039
the terrible things he did as a teenager, that there's

402
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,680
more to the story, and that he's able to help

403
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:12,599
us to figure out how predators operate, especially with vulnerable teenagers.

404
00:23:13,039 --> 00:23:17,960
He's able to confirm our list of cautions that we

405
00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:23,000
supply in the last chapters for counselors and parents and teachers.

406
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,359
So ultimately, it is redemptive, but it's not something he

407
00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:31,920
was looking at as a vehicle for redemption.

408
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 2: Although it's interesting here's a guy who has a Bible

409
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in his pocket, as you mentioned, and yet isn't seeking redemption, absolution, forgiveness.

410
00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 5: He's changed, and I think Tracy can maybe talk more

411
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,480
about this. He's changed his position on religion, as we

412
00:23:49,519 --> 00:23:51,880
all do, I think through our lives.

413
00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 6: I think at this point he's a very rational thinking individual.

414
00:23:56,599 --> 00:24:01,240
I think that he did leave his religious practice after

415
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,680
all of this was said and done, because ultimately, Dean

416
00:24:04,759 --> 00:24:07,640
Coral had a way of reminding him, where's your God now?

417
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,480
How is your God intervened to prevent these murders? For

418
00:24:11,599 --> 00:24:14,440
him to live through that type of trauma, he had

419
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,920
to separate himself from a God who was doing nothing

420
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,960
to prevent this. Another thing that I wanted to add

421
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,960
to what Catherine was saying. While she was talking with Wayne,

422
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,240
I was interviewing his friends and other people that were

423
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,599
historically involved with the case, but not on the law

424
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,400
enforcement end. And what we started piecing together, and this

425
00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:38,400
was the same thing that happened in the John Wayne

426
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,079
Gacy case, was that you have records that show the

427
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,920
syndicate was being talked about, that child pornography had been

428
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,359
shown to police involving the victims, which would give an

429
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,279
indication that there was a wider distribution network. You start

430
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:59,119
to see that maybe individuals are either complicit in law

431
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,519
enforcement or in other ways in which we rely on

432
00:25:03,599 --> 00:25:06,519
them in our darkest moments, in our moments of need,

433
00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:12,319
and they're actually actively preventing the distribution of information that

434
00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:14,920
would help really get to the bottom of what happened here.

435
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

436
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:37,839
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

437
00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:38,759
mindover Murder.

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Speaker 3: From a journalistic standpoint, this must have been pretty difficult.

439
00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:46,880
There is not a lot of information available on Jane

440
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,160
Quarrel because it wasn't until after he was dead that

441
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,559
his crimes were discovered, and there didn't seem to be

442
00:25:53,559 --> 00:25:55,119
a lot of people who were willing to talk to

443
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,799
police about him. So can you both speak to the

444
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,279
kind of challenges that a birth of information on a

445
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,799
subject presents for you when you're actually trying to do

446
00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:08,359
reporting on him on tra season and then trying to

447
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,119
understand him on Catherine's end.

448
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 5: I think it's important to point out that Wayne is

449
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,400
the only accomplice to a serial killer to have killed

450
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,440
the killer to end it. That speaks to his character.

451
00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:25,799
That was self defense, but also saving two of his friends,

452
00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:29,559
and then he killed Dean and as a result, Dean

453
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,759
Coral never went to trial, and the irony is had

454
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:36,039
he lived, Wayne would have been on the prosecution side

455
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,319
as the witness against him, right instead of serving basically

456
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,079
serving Dean Coral's prison term, which is what he ended

457
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,319
up doing. The fact that Coral was killed, and that

458
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,599
he had been a very secretive man in the first place,

459
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,000
and then basically all anyone knew about him was this

460
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,960
facade of nice guy that he put on as a

461
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,880
manipulation of the entire community. It was really hard to

462
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,319
dig in and find stuff. We did find some things.

463
00:27:05,839 --> 00:27:09,759
There were a few early true crime accounts. So there

464
00:27:09,759 --> 00:27:13,119
were newspaper articles, There was a little bit of a

465
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,680
police report. They interviewed his father, mother, brother, so there

466
00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:22,279
was some and a pseudo fiance and I'm saying pseudo

467
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,319
because she was a front for him. She didn't know

468
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,519
she was, but she was a friend for him. She

469
00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:29,079
had some things to say. There was a guy that

470
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,640
he had a relationship with. So we found some things.

471
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,039
But most of what you're going to know about Dean Coral,

472
00:27:36,759 --> 00:27:41,160
his speculation and the way he operated based on things

473
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,480
that Brooks and Henley said in their police statements, and

474
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,799
other people who were found by police said about his

475
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,839
approach to them. These are the things that help us

476
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,640
to piece together who he was based on what we

477
00:27:55,759 --> 00:27:57,559
do know about sexual predators.

478
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 6: This is someone who's operating in the early nineteen seventies

479
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,640
as so far as we know. As a journalist, my

480
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,759
goal was not just to look at Dean Coral, but

481
00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:11,839
to find evidence that there was trafficking.

482
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:13,079
Speaker 5: What kept me.

483
00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:17,839
Speaker 6: Going initially was that I found newspaper articles from nineteen

484
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,359
seventy five in nineteen seventy six showing that a number

485
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,440
of the victims who we expected went right away to

486
00:28:24,519 --> 00:28:28,160
their deaths had actually been photographed and that there had

487
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,000
been pornography made of them. So that indicates that Dean

488
00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:36,200
Coral isn't simply operating alone. He's got somebody who took receipts,

489
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,680
receipt of these photos, and that these photos are then

490
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,279
printed and distributed. You're finding them in Houston, you're finding

491
00:28:43,359 --> 00:28:47,079
them in California. You've got another individual by the name

492
00:28:47,119 --> 00:28:50,039
of Roy Clifton Ames who is found to have just

493
00:28:50,279 --> 00:28:54,240
tons of child pornography in Houston and a huge warehouse.

494
00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:58,039
And they try to get Roy Ames to give them

495
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,519
a heads up to what they know is a massive

496
00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:04,039
sex trafficking ring, and he basically told them I'm not

497
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:06,359
going to give you anything because I can operate just

498
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,759
as well from prison. So this is somebody who was

499
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:13,079
making a lot of money and knew his business. You

500
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,519
never hear these names. You don't understand the investigation except

501
00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:20,480
for what we can piece together. Almost fifty years later,

502
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,720
nobody came out with this. There were some journalists at

503
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,960
the time who had a clue. There was a man

504
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,839
by the name of Ken Wooden who worked for sixty

505
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,119
minutes and he did a piece kiddie porn for sixty

506
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,960
minutes in nineteen seventy seven. He was aware he had

507
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,519
seen the list in the Dallas Police Department of the

508
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:45,319
Johns that John David Norman had. He understood the gravity

509
00:29:45,359 --> 00:29:48,119
of how big this was, and actually part of my

510
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:53,799
investigation with Alison True showed that you had satellites in Nebraska,

511
00:29:54,079 --> 00:29:57,240
you have it in North Fox Island in Michigan. You

512
00:29:57,359 --> 00:30:01,680
have another one in New Orleans, Causiana. You have another

513
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,839
one in Connecticut. It was absolutely massive. A lot of

514
00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:10,559
these organizations, including John David Norman's Core, would get state

515
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,480
and federal funding as five oh one C three's because

516
00:30:15,559 --> 00:30:20,599
for the young men that they were abducting and educating,

517
00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:25,279
they were getting funds to help with this education. So

518
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,799
it's an incredibly cynical This.

519
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:32,599
Speaker 2: Is all way before the Internet. How are these horrific

520
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,240
images being moved around the country and what's happening at

521
00:30:38,279 --> 00:30:41,799
the same time with the surviving victims. What's the method

522
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,240
of distribution here?

523
00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 6: So the method of distribution that we identified was that

524
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,720
you basically have ads going into magazines like The Boy Scouts,

525
00:30:52,839 --> 00:30:55,720
Boys Life, and in the back they would be encoded

526
00:30:56,279 --> 00:30:59,880
asks and other pedophiles would understand, oh, I could get

527
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,680
a copy of this kid's photo and brown paper bag

528
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,759
it to your house through the United States Postal System.

529
00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:11,720
I avoided the United States Postal System looking to see

530
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,480
their investigation for John David Norman, and I was told

531
00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:19,880
I could not get those files because he has a

532
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,839
surviving child. It would be an invasion of his privacy.

533
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,559
Speaker 2: I was a Boy Scout, I was an Eagle Scout.

534
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,400
I was an explorer. I had a subscription to Boy's

535
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,799
Life for years since I was about I don't know

536
00:31:35,279 --> 00:31:38,160
when did I join the Cub Scouts sixth to the

537
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,960
time I was probably eighteen and went off to college.

538
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:46,880
There were ads in Boy's Life that obviously we as kids,

539
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,720
weren't paying attention to. What would they say? How would

540
00:31:50,799 --> 00:31:55,640
you code language in a general interest magazine read by

541
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,160
kids and Scout leaders.

542
00:31:57,759 --> 00:32:02,279
Speaker 6: So in Franklin County, Tennessee, you had an organization called

543
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,960
Boys Farm, and Boys Farm was to help young men

544
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,519
in the cities who didn't have exposure to the outdoors

545
00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:13,599
to come on in and join Boys Farm. That's really

546
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,759
all they needed to say, and that was a wink

547
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,559
to somebody else who then come to Boys Farm and

548
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,319
find those boys. It's absolutely terrifying the ways in which

549
00:32:24,359 --> 00:32:27,519
these people operated, and I don't always know that it

550
00:32:27,559 --> 00:32:31,480
was under the radar, and who in law enforcement may

551
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,799
have had a clue. Some of the people in law

552
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:38,119
enforcement that I contacted seemed to have an idea of

553
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,000
what had been going on. They knew that it wasn't

554
00:32:42,079 --> 00:32:45,720
something that they were going to be able to dig into.

555
00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:49,920
If they found something, they weren't always granted an investigation,

556
00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:53,160
And it really depends on those people in power and

557
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,039
what their agendas are to make that happen.

558
00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:57,039
Speaker 5: So it is.

559
00:32:57,079 --> 00:32:59,559
Speaker 6: It's very tricky stuff, in my opinion, and it's so

560
00:32:59,599 --> 00:33:04,000
important for us to recognize as humans that our base

561
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,440
instincts are drives, some of them which in civilization we

562
00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:13,279
determined to be perverted damaging. Some other people see as

563
00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:16,680
a basic need or that's part of their psychological emo,

564
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,440
and they're going to do what they have to do

565
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,000
to make it, and there are victims that are scattered

566
00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:22,960
all around them.

567
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,519
Speaker 5: Unfortunately, I've never seen one of the ads. I know

568
00:33:26,599 --> 00:33:31,759
it was coded. There were labels given to these candidates.

569
00:33:32,039 --> 00:33:38,440
They were clothed in things like vacations, getaways. Really that

570
00:33:38,559 --> 00:33:40,960
hard to make these communications. First of all, there wasn't

571
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,400
any Internet, There weren't any CCTV cameras. You got enough

572
00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:51,519
names on a newsletter mimeographed newsletters, even though mimeographing is anymore,

573
00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:56,759
but that's basically what they were. Yeah, And they were

574
00:33:56,799 --> 00:34:00,640
coded in order to communicate with one another. They looking

575
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,119
for one another. They couldn't meet in chat rooms. There

576
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,680
weren't anything like that, but they could figure out where

577
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,599
to find these publications. And the publications always came across

578
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:16,000
as seemingly innocent young men, not boys, even though they

579
00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:19,599
obviously from the pictures were boys. So they would find

580
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:24,719
any way they could to make it seem innocent. It's predatory.

581
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,360
What predators do. They disguise themselves, and they work within

582
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,440
the system because that's the easiest way to do it.

583
00:34:32,039 --> 00:34:36,519
No one's looking at something that looks normal. I think

584
00:34:36,559 --> 00:34:38,679
that's probably as much as I can say about that part.

585
00:34:39,039 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 6: And the other big thing is this definitely generates a

586
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:43,599
lot of money. You've got a lot of money to

587
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,719
pay people off to look the other way. You've got

588
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,360
a lot of money to facilitate these occasional overseas trips

589
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:53,360
by older men who are just concerned for the growth

590
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,920
of young boys. You look at how big this ends

591
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,159
up being, and it is it's very intimidating all to

592
00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:05,599
realize this lays the path for these child pornography photos

593
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,079
at the very beginning of the Internet, and that the

594
00:35:09,199 --> 00:35:13,440
draw just recycles over again, and new skills are learned,

595
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:19,639
how to navigate, use secret language, and the anonymity just

596
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,400
expands the reach.

597
00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 5: And now with the Internet, the dangers are exponentially enhanced

598
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,079
in terms of how they can meet together, the kind

599
00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:34,960
of language they can form to communicate, the access they

600
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:40,119
have to the prey that they want, the ability to

601
00:35:40,159 --> 00:35:45,000
disguise themselves and use disappearing things like Snapchat and whatnot.

602
00:35:45,639 --> 00:35:48,639
There are all kinds of dangers today that certainly weren't

603
00:35:48,679 --> 00:35:51,599
around in the nineteen seventies. But we're set up by

604
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,440
these networks back then.

605
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,599
Speaker 3: And I want to make sure that we get to

606
00:35:56,159 --> 00:35:59,440
what I think is one of the most incredibly informative

607
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,960
and helpful parts of the book, which is this massive

608
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,440
wealth of information and it's for any adult with a

609
00:36:06,519 --> 00:36:08,320
child in their life that they want to protect. So

610
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,079
I would say that what you guys have set up

611
00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:14,800
in terms of guidelines would be good for parents, family members, educators, counselors,

612
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,880
law enforcement, you name it. You offer this list of

613
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,320
fifteen different guidelines to help adults keep the children in

614
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,079
their lives safe from predators.

615
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 5: Prior to that is a chapter to show this isn't isolated.

616
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,880
There are other predators doing these things to kids, and

617
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,960
I go through a number of other kinds of affiliations

618
00:36:37,039 --> 00:36:41,039
like this. I also developed an idea called murder like

619
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,960
a radar that predators use to figure out who's vulnerable

620
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,119
and how can they manipulate that and room those kids.

621
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,000
And then also talk about the temporary psychopath that is

622
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,239
taking kids who've already been through abusive situations so they've

623
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,559
developed a callousness and manipulating that to turn them into

624
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,679
kids who will do things they wouldn't ordinarily do, but

625
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,679
they will do so under the influence of this very

626
00:37:06,679 --> 00:37:11,119
dominating predator. I wanted people to understand this is not

627
00:37:11,159 --> 00:37:14,719
an isolated thing. This goes on. It's going on today.

628
00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:18,480
It isn't just kids who are preyed who are vulnerable,

629
00:37:18,519 --> 00:37:21,199
but kids are vulnerable to being picked up and pulled

630
00:37:21,199 --> 00:37:25,599
into partnerships. And so that leads the way to what

631
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,119
happens in the final chapter with the list.

632
00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 3: I don't have kids of my own, but I teach

633
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,440
one hundred and fifty of them every year, and this

634
00:37:33,679 --> 00:37:37,519
is the most important single piece of information that I

635
00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:40,159
would give to everyone that I work with. They'd think

636
00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:42,639
I was being a weirdo, but I would be like, no, seriously,

637
00:37:43,039 --> 00:37:46,440
this is really important to know and understand. And as

638
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,559
I was reading all of this, these wonderful guidelines and

639
00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:51,800
all of the information you just talked about, Catherine, I

640
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,000
was just nodding my head and going Every adult that

641
00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:56,480
I know needs to read this, whether they have kids

642
00:37:56,599 --> 00:37:59,000
or not. But if you work with kids and around them,

643
00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:00,960
the little little all the way up to the big

644
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:02,960
ones that I work with, people need to know and

645
00:38:03,039 --> 00:38:03,679
understand this.

646
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 6: Anybody can be groomed, and it really depends on their

647
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,000
vulnerability at the time. It doesn't mean that they have

648
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:12,960
to be young and naive. They could be at a

649
00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:15,960
place in their life where they're very lonely, they're looking

650
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,519
for some companionship, and they end up with a companion

651
00:38:19,639 --> 00:38:23,480
that happens to be a psychopath. I think one of

652
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,480
the bigger things that we latched onto in this list

653
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,920
was hearing Wayne's story about trying as hard as he

654
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,679
could to tell the adults in his life what was

655
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,599
going on for him. Not once, not twice, but three times.

656
00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:41,360
He told three different adults in his life, look, this

657
00:38:41,519 --> 00:38:46,079
is what's happening. And it sounded so outrageous that they

658
00:38:46,119 --> 00:38:49,960
attributed his telling of the story to drugs or some

659
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,360
form of mental illness. But child's coming to you and

660
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,679
telling you that an individual in their lives is derailing them,

661
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:03,760
Believe it and take action. I think that was something

662
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,800
when I spoke with Wayne's mother that she regretted to

663
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,679
her dying day that she didn't save the letter that

664
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,079
he had written detailing exactly what had happened and turned

665
00:39:13,079 --> 00:39:15,719
it over to police so that they could start to

666
00:39:16,079 --> 00:39:21,039
unearth this terrible tragedy instead of letting elmoy and Henley

667
00:39:21,079 --> 00:39:24,320
at the age of seventeen, have to decide I'm going

668
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,280
to have to kill this man or this will go

669
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:26,960
on forever.

670
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 5: The other big, I think, really big point that maybe

671
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,960
I learned through this was that how predators don't just

672
00:39:34,119 --> 00:39:38,360
groom the kid, They room the community because they want

673
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,480
to be sure when this kid does come and tell

674
00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:43,119
the community won't believe them because the community thinks this

675
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,239
is a good guy Wayne's mother thought she thought he's

676
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,119
a little dicey, but she thought he's like a boy

677
00:39:50,119 --> 00:39:52,880
Scout leader. I don't see anything off about it. And

678
00:39:53,159 --> 00:39:56,519
it gives Wayne a place to go and do things

679
00:39:56,599 --> 00:40:00,440
and resources and whatnot. So they groom the community to

680
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,400
seem trustworthy, even to seem important to the community, so

681
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,639
that when adults are told, they're more likely to side

682
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,920
with the predator than the kid. That's something I think

683
00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:16,559
all adults have to keep in mind. Listen to the child,

684
00:40:16,679 --> 00:40:20,239
because you might have been duped by somebody. And these

685
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:26,440
predators show up as oy scout leaders, youth pastors, teachers,

686
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,199
at any place they can find to get close to

687
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,119
kids and to seem trustworthy. They will be developing those

688
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,000
relationships as much as they are grooming the child.

689
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 3: Everything that I was reading through here on this list,

690
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,079
it was like a light bulb was going off for

691
00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:49,039
me and realizing this is so important. But I bet

692
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,440
most adults outside of the true crime space don't think

693
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,599
about this sort of thing. Yeah.

694
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 5: Also, the amount of information that parents put out there

695
00:40:58,519 --> 00:40:59,199
about their.

696
00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 7: Families and there, oh my gosh, yes, astonishing how predators

697
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,960
are looking for those items and going, oh boy, I

698
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,840
can I know where that kid's going to school, I

699
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,480
know when they come home for lunch, I know where.

700
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 5: They play in the playground. There's all kinds of things

701
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,159
that people put on these social media sites innocently, and

702
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,679
not just the kids, but their parents too, thinking this

703
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,159
is a way to garner community, and it is, but

704
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,119
it's also a way to attract predators.

705
00:41:30,599 --> 00:41:32,519
Speaker 3: Even just the stickers that are on the back of

706
00:41:32,559 --> 00:41:35,280
a car, you can tell a kid's team if you've

707
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,199
got a stick figure family with the names of the kids.

708
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,400
There's so much on there, and you can learn so

709
00:41:41,519 --> 00:41:43,639
much about somebody just from looking at the stickers on

710
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,199
the back of their car, which is it's just a

711
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,559
little profiling game that I play for myself. If I'm

712
00:41:48,599 --> 00:41:50,880
in traffic, I'll look and see how many things that

713
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,840
I learn about this person right now who's got seventeen

714
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,079
bumper stickers in her kids' names on all of them.

715
00:41:56,679 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 5: And people are going to resist this advice because they

716
00:41:59,599 --> 00:42:02,679
like doing these kinds of things. They don't really believe

717
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,679
they're putting their child at risk. But ask the kids.

718
00:42:06,639 --> 00:42:09,800
You mentioned that you really were taken by the last

719
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,280
thing that wanes in the book, Yah, and I'll tell

720
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,960
you a little story about that, because I wanted something

721
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,559
from him to end the book, and I'm going to

722
00:42:17,599 --> 00:42:20,840
tell you that he came out with this and it

723
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,679
is verbatim. I did not do any corrections or work.

724
00:42:26,119 --> 00:42:30,119
It all came pouring out from his own passion at

725
00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:35,320
this message, perfectly poised to deliver the message from his heart.

726
00:42:35,599 --> 00:42:37,880
And I thought it was just such a fabulous way.

727
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,239
I was happy that you said you really noticed that.

728
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 3: The final quote of the book, which I really do

729
00:42:44,079 --> 00:42:45,920
think was the strongest way that you both could have

730
00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:48,760
ended it is from Henley and it reads this quote,

731
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,519
I wake up every day and I'm still under Dean's thumb.

732
00:42:51,679 --> 00:42:55,199
I'm still living Dean's life. I understand why people are

733
00:42:55,199 --> 00:42:56,960
mad at me, but be mad at me for what

734
00:42:57,199 --> 00:42:59,639
I've done. Be mad at me because I was weak,

735
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,440
because I was young and made poor choices. Don't be

736
00:43:03,519 --> 00:43:08,039
mad at me for Dean's crimes. That's amazingly evocative. But

737
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:13,000
I'm very curious about his word choice there, when Henley

738
00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:15,880
says that he was weak, Do you feel like that's

739
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:20,239
the right word choice, Because if you're being groomed or

740
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,679
dominated or coercively controlled, or whichever term tends to fit best.

741
00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:26,159
Does that make you weak?

742
00:43:26,639 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 5: He has trouble accepting the vulnerability. When you're a kid,

743
00:43:31,519 --> 00:43:34,679
you think you know everything, and he thought he should

744
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,880
have known what to do and done it. But he

745
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,079
also was in this religious frame up, and we all

746
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:43,960
have free will, and so everything we do, it comes back.

747
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:49,320
It's our responsibility. He did not understand the teenage brain

748
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,559
stuff that we now know, the kind of home he

749
00:43:52,679 --> 00:43:57,199
came out of it, with the adverse circumstances that had

750
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,840
prepared him for someone like Dean. He didn't understand any

751
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,639
of that. So no, week isn't the right word when

752
00:44:03,679 --> 00:44:07,760
you're looking at it objectively. It's his word because he

753
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:12,400
still needs to embrace that. He feels responsible for certain

754
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,480
things that happened early on when he thought I should

755
00:44:15,519 --> 00:44:17,960
have gone to the police. But even when he thought

756
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,480
he should have gone to the police, he thought, who's

757
00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:23,639
going to believe a kid against this adult? And what

758
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,719
if they do arrest him and then he gets out

759
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,440
and the syndicate comes after me and my family. What

760
00:44:28,559 --> 00:44:32,079
am I supposed to do? He's kept that very limited

761
00:44:32,159 --> 00:44:35,599
frame of a fifteen year old because he was fifteen

762
00:44:35,639 --> 00:44:38,239
when this started. But you don't know that as a

763
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,440
fifteen year old. So he's still thinking I should have

764
00:44:42,559 --> 00:44:46,480
done something, I should have known better. So he says weak.

765
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,119
It's not weak, but I allowed that as the person

766
00:44:50,199 --> 00:44:54,559
who was working therapeutically with him. That's the truth that

767
00:44:54,639 --> 00:44:58,760
he knows. But he also has changed considerably in terms

768
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,360
of being more educated about where kids are at with

769
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,119
these kinds of situations. And even Brooks. I don't think

770
00:45:06,199 --> 00:45:08,559
Brooks would have ever turned dean in. I think Brooks

771
00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:11,760
had had more antisocial personality and I think he would

772
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,360
have just continued to go on with the stuff. But nevertheless,

773
00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:21,159
he was quite young, with no parental resources whatsoever. His

774
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,000
father even said to Wayne, don't hang out with my son.

775
00:45:24,519 --> 00:45:26,960
He's going to come to no good. I think there's

776
00:45:27,039 --> 00:45:30,199
some excuse there even for David Brooks, though I think

777
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,159
he's much much more complicit because he saw a lot,

778
00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:37,519
but he allowed himself to be bought by a new car. Okay,

779
00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:40,119
I'll keep my mouth shut, even though I know the

780
00:45:40,199 --> 00:45:42,480
kids that were just here are dead. But I still

781
00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:46,199
think you can make some room for mitigation for him

782
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:47,199
as well.

783
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 3: Tracy, any thoughts about now that you've spent time with Henley,

784
00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:53,639
any thoughts about that final quote from him.

785
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,639
Speaker 6: I really feel for him at this point. I've been

786
00:45:56,679 --> 00:45:59,360
in touch with him for over four years. I speak

787
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,639
with him reg lily. We just lived through the death

788
00:46:02,639 --> 00:46:04,599
of his mother, who I'd been talking to the same

789
00:46:04,639 --> 00:46:08,239
amount of time. When you look at his familial situation,

790
00:46:09,119 --> 00:46:12,280
his mother always wanted to have kids. She had four sons.

791
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,920
Unfortunately she had an abusive husband. This is not unheard of,

792
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,920
and so here she is left alone with four sons

793
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,559
and the oldest son, Wayne feels responsible for the others,

794
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,320
which isn't unusual either, and so he's trying to guide

795
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,400
their lives and be the big brother that they always needed.

796
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,400
And then suddenly he finds himself in this situation where

797
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,719
he's being offered some money if he could just make

798
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,159
introductions to Dean Coral. Dean makes this a business proposition,

799
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,760
initially to a kid who really doesn't have a father

800
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,199
figure and his mother is struggling financially to take care

801
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:55,119
of her brood. It's true that initially Dean Coral is

802
00:46:55,199 --> 00:46:59,480
introduced to Mary Henley. They're the same age. There's no

803
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:02,760
doubt that Wayne sees him in more of a father figure.

804
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,880
This is somebody who initially seems much kinder than the

805
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,199
man who took out a gun and almost shot him,

806
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,559
and who ad write the family regularly. And Wayne's had

807
00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:14,800
to live with all of that, and he's thinking he's

808
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,559
got a solution in his young mind, but he doesn't.

809
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,320
I look at his situation with a lot of compassion.

810
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,000
Don't get me wrong. I have a great amount of

811
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,119
compassion for every one of the families who had victims,

812
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,159
and that the point that we're making in the book

813
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,199
is not to ignore the families that suffered through this

814
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,559
and ignore the violence. We are not here to prop

815
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,039
up Elma Wayne Henley as a poster child. But what

816
00:47:42,079 --> 00:47:45,159
we are trying to say is this situation was tragic

817
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,800
all around, and that we have to start looking at

818
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,079
grooming as another part.

819
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 5: Of the equation.

820
00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:57,679
Speaker 6: I think that Elmawayne Henley, in my opinion, was used

821
00:47:58,039 --> 00:48:02,679
by law enforcement as somebody that everybody could apportion blame to.

822
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,599
And at seventeen year years old, he bore the weight

823
00:48:06,639 --> 00:48:09,639
of this, and people still harp on about it. He

824
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,760
killed twenty seven twenty eight people. He did not kill

825
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,119
twenty eight people. This lies firmly with Dean Coral. He

826
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,559
was the foster mind, there's no doubt about it. But

827
00:48:18,679 --> 00:48:22,320
still Wayne doesn't have a defense. He can't say no,

828
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,880
I didn't do that, because he's still the public enemy

829
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,960
number one in the state of Texas, where they still

830
00:48:29,159 --> 00:48:32,559
very much know his name. I look at his situation

831
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,599
and I think that we have to be more measured,

832
00:48:35,639 --> 00:48:38,239
if we are truly civilized. We have to give him

833
00:48:38,599 --> 00:48:41,880
some credit for doing what he could with the resources

834
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,320
he had when he was seventeen to stop this.

835
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 5: And also I think we have to point out the

836
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:52,199
original business deal that Dean offered was everybody wins, including

837
00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:56,639
the kid being brought to Dean, because the idea was

838
00:48:56,679 --> 00:48:59,840
that Dean was going to sell him into a trafficking

839
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,239
I had a sex trafficking network, a trafficking network where

840
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,360
the boy would be sent to California to become some

841
00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:10,239
rich person's pooh boy. Wayne would make some money on

842
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,679
the deal, Dean would make some money on the deal.

843
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,280
The kid would be far better off over in California

844
00:49:16,599 --> 00:49:20,119
than he would be staying in Houston Heights. So everybody wins.

845
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,800
That was the original idea of this deal. So when

846
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,960
Wayne finally succumbed and thought that doesn't really sound that

847
00:49:27,039 --> 00:49:29,880
bad and I do need the money. That was how

848
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,280
Coral leveraged him, because Coral killed that kid and then said,

849
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:35,159
now you're part of this.

850
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:41,119
Speaker 2: Was Wayne able to steer his siblings away from this

851
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,599
horrible lifestyle that he'd been drawn.

852
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 5: Into as much as he could. One of them did

853
00:49:47,079 --> 00:49:49,719
end up hanging out with Dean, going to his house.

854
00:49:50,039 --> 00:49:52,920
His siblings resented him and thought, you're over there partying

855
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,280
and having a great time and not sharing with us,

856
00:49:56,039 --> 00:49:57,920
and some of his friends thought the same thing. And

857
00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:00,719
what he was really trying to do was prevent them

858
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:05,719
from becoming Dean's victims, because Dean would say things like, Oh,

859
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,119
I saw your little brother the other day. He's real cute,

860
00:50:09,199 --> 00:50:11,559
and you can imagine what that would be like because

861
00:50:11,599 --> 00:50:15,559
Wayne knows what's going to happen to anyone that Quarrel

862
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,159
manages to get in there to tie up, to torture

863
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:19,840
and kill.

864
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 3: My final question for you, guys is about the title

865
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,119
of the book itself. It's The Serial Killers Apprentice. What

866
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,519
made you choose the word apprentice rather than accomplice or

867
00:50:32,519 --> 00:50:36,360
a victim or something other than that? What made apprentice

868
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:37,239
stick with you?

869
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,159
Speaker 5: I thought it had a strong ring to it. Now,

870
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:49,280
apprentices aren't always willingly apprenticed somebody. They're often indentured, and

871
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,840
they have to do this in order to pay off

872
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,480
a debt or to make to learn a trade so

873
00:50:55,559 --> 00:50:57,960
they can make a livel with it. But it's not

874
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:02,079
something they necessarily want to do. They tend to live

875
00:51:02,159 --> 00:51:05,880
with the master, and the master makes all the decisions

876
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,960
and whatnot. So I think I thought apprentice actually was

877
00:51:10,119 --> 00:51:15,440
a fair description because in a way, it's more an

878
00:51:15,519 --> 00:51:20,199
apprenticeship than it is an accomplice, because it is like

879
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,280
he's in this, he's being trained to play a certain

880
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,199
role for the master, like it or not, he is

881
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,719
learning to do it, and he is doing it as

882
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,960
part of Dean's ownership of him. So I thought apprentice

883
00:51:36,039 --> 00:51:38,480
was an appropriate way to look at this. And I

884
00:51:38,519 --> 00:51:41,239
did that because I wanted we tend to group all

885
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,320
of all accomplices together as if they're all the same thing,

886
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,119
and that one of the things I did was breakout

887
00:51:47,159 --> 00:51:50,199
categories of the different kinds of teams that we see.

888
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 3: That was so helpful.

889
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, we see the coequals. You both want to be

890
00:51:54,679 --> 00:51:57,559
in this and you know, can't wait till the next victim.

891
00:51:57,599 --> 00:52:00,760
And I gave some examples of that, like to Kurnoris.

892
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:05,639
We see the foe accomplice, the one who, once they're caught, claims, oh,

893
00:52:05,679 --> 00:52:09,199
I was just the it wasn't my idea, and it

894
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,079
really was, but they somehow pass themselves off as being

895
00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:17,679
the lesser of the two. Then we see the compliant accomplice,

896
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,920
the reluctant accomplice who really is in a situation like

897
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,679
Wayne and David Brooks work, so they're in it, but

898
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:28,679
they don't really this isn't really what they want to

899
00:52:28,679 --> 00:52:32,239
be doing. And then we see the forced accomplish like

900
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,880
at gunpoint, you're going to help me bury this body,

901
00:52:35,039 --> 00:52:37,840
and we have a few examples of that. So they're

902
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:42,400
in that compliant stage, and it's very important to distinguish

903
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:46,599
that from co the kind of team where they really

904
00:52:46,639 --> 00:52:51,000
are co equals in their deviant desires and their love

905
00:52:51,079 --> 00:52:54,760
of violence and sadism and things like that. So I

906
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,679
wanted to make it clear. But even at that, the

907
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:02,119
apprenticeship is different than some of the other accomplices. We

908
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,840
have accomplices who are very they're compliant, but they're in love,

909
00:53:06,519 --> 00:53:10,440
let's say, so they're afraid of losing the guy. Many

910
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,360
of the male female teams are like that. That's different

911
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,079
than what we have for Wayne Henley. Even Wayne Henley

912
00:53:17,159 --> 00:53:20,840
is different from David Brooks. So I thought the apprenticeship

913
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,559
idea got at it a little bit more.

914
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,800
Speaker 2: Clearly, this chilling idea of the syndicate.

915
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:27,639
Speaker 5: Here we are.

916
00:53:27,679 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 2: We're having this discussion with the four of us in

917
00:53:30,039 --> 00:53:34,119
April twenty twenty four. The book looks back at a

918
00:53:34,159 --> 00:53:37,960
time and a place and tells us these very chilling

919
00:53:38,119 --> 00:53:43,599
stories are things that different in twenty twenty four, they're worse.

920
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,800
Speaker 5: I'll let Tracy take this way far worse.

921
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 6: They're just an extrapolation by one hundred times over because

922
00:53:52,519 --> 00:53:55,519
now instead of having to sneak in the back of

923
00:53:55,639 --> 00:54:00,519
a magazine, networks exist all over the place where they're

924
00:54:00,559 --> 00:54:05,559
trading photographs, where they're exploiting children. I can't even begin

925
00:54:05,599 --> 00:54:08,679
to tell you my work with law enforcement and them

926
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:13,920
explaining some of the cases that they've had whereby biological

927
00:54:14,039 --> 00:54:18,760
children are used. Sometimes biological children are made for this purpose.

928
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,880
We look at this and we think, not in my backyard.

929
00:54:22,039 --> 00:54:25,039
It literally is in our backyards. And I think that

930
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,119
it's good as a society to pay attention to what's

931
00:54:28,159 --> 00:54:32,199
going on around us, and to understand the difference between

932
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,559
something like a conspiracy theory like Pizzagate and the actual

933
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:41,159
machinations that it takes on in our communities, in our

934
00:54:41,199 --> 00:54:45,440
real lives, so that we're able to look at more

935
00:54:45,599 --> 00:54:47,800
squarely in the face. I think that we saw the

936
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,039
same thing with Oh my goodness, the Boy Scouts. I

937
00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:54,440
can't believe that this happened to such a storied organization,

938
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,079
and you think to yourself that this was the perfect

939
00:54:57,199 --> 00:55:02,559
organization for pedophiles to infield. The Catholic Church had a

940
00:55:02,599 --> 00:55:07,280
perfect way of making their pedophiles disappear and recycle them.

941
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,119
When you look at our way of ignoring some of

942
00:55:11,159 --> 00:55:15,239
the troubling signs that are coming at us, why not

943
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,000
be aware, why not call it out, and why not

944
00:55:18,079 --> 00:55:22,000
be proactive in understanding how to protect our kids in

945
00:55:22,039 --> 00:55:22,840
our communities?

946
00:55:23,599 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 3: Well, the book is The Serial Killers Apprentice, the true

947
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,800
story of how Houston's deadliest murderer turned a kid into

948
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,000
a killing machine. Thank you both so much for joining us.

949
00:55:33,039 --> 00:55:37,079
We really appreciate it. It is a fascinating book, available wherever

950
00:55:37,119 --> 00:55:40,679
books are sold. On April sixteenth, Tracy Catherine, thank you

951
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:41,440
for joining us.

952
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 6: Thank you very much.

953
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:45,159
Speaker 5: Thank you. I'm happy to be here again.

954
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:47,760
Speaker 3: That's going to do it for this episode. Thank you

955
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,199
so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

956
00:56:00,119 --> 00:56:03,679
Speaker 1: Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another

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Dog Productions.

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Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

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Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

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Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud.

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Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.

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Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

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Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

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Murders on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

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Bill Thomas five six.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.