1 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:21,039 --> 00:00:24,640 Radio Hour. I'm Mad Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at The 3 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:29,399 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:29,719 --> 00:00:32,479 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,079 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at fbr LST, 6 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,280 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:40,399 --> 00:00:44,119 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,359 Our guest today is Kevin Slack, Associate Professor of Politics 9 00:00:49,399 --> 00:00:53,799 at Hillsdale College. As we turn our attention to family, friends, 10 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:59,159 and maybe most importantly food around the Thanksgiving table, let's 11 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,399 reflect on how truly blessed we are to live in 12 00:01:02,439 --> 00:01:07,680 this exceptional republic and consider the colonist who founded and 13 00:01:08,159 --> 00:01:11,640 built it. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us 14 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:13,760 on this edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 15 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 2: It's good to be here. 16 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,079 Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm really excited about this conversation because we often 17 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,040 talk about foundational principles, and I think that is incredibly important, 18 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,799 particularly in these days when we seem to have lost 19 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:31,840 our principles in the heat of politics. But I think 20 00:01:31,879 --> 00:01:37,439 it's very important to stop and reflect on the people 21 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,519 as I said before, who built the foundation? Now who 22 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:48,200 started this exceptional republic? Those colonists and Kevin. Let's begin 23 00:01:48,359 --> 00:01:52,040 there with who the colonists were. I mean, what were 24 00:01:52,079 --> 00:01:57,280 they looking for? What were they escaping from? What did 25 00:01:57,599 --> 00:02:01,760 they dream about? Did they ever could they possibly have 26 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:06,560 imagined what America is two hundred and fifty years later? 27 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,479 Speaker 2: Well, you know, you have different reasons for migrating to 28 00:02:12,439 --> 00:02:15,599 the colonies, and you know, we think of Thanksgiving and 29 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:20,400 that's primarily the New England migrants. And you know, you 30 00:02:20,439 --> 00:02:23,960 speak of the principles for colonize it. So I think 31 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,680 you have to consider the various reasons why, you know, 32 00:02:27,719 --> 00:02:32,159 the settlers migrated to the American colonies, and when we 33 00:02:32,199 --> 00:02:36,280 think about Thanksgiving, the primary motive there was faith, and 34 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,840 faith played a major role in the creation. They played 35 00:02:39,879 --> 00:02:42,240 a major role in that settlement. It was the reason 36 00:02:42,319 --> 00:02:45,680 for the settlement of New England. And many of the 37 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,919 English separatists, those are those who wanted to separate from 38 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,800 the Church of England. They've lived in a small English 39 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,879 farming village of Scruby, but they faced persecution. So Queen 40 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:01,159 Elizabeth and her successor had begun to secute the separatists. 41 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:09,560 The attendance if any unofficial church resulted in sometimes severe punishments, fines, imprisonment, 42 00:03:10,199 --> 00:03:13,400 there were some that were executed. And so this congregation 43 00:03:13,759 --> 00:03:18,199 then flees to Holland. And this is after a first 44 00:03:18,199 --> 00:03:23,520 failed attempt, but eventually it settled there in Leiden and 45 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,439 they work. They work in the textile industry and in brewing, 46 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,280 very demanding jobs six days a week. And they stayed 47 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,520 there for about twelve years. And I think then we 48 00:03:32,599 --> 00:03:35,439 have the flip side where they realized they were losing 49 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,360 their identity that Leiden was actually a very tolerant place, 50 00:03:39,719 --> 00:03:43,599 the university city, and so by faith they left their 51 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,400 native land to go to Holland. And just of course, 52 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,400 traveling so many miles in what was called adventure, almost desperate, 53 00:03:51,479 --> 00:03:54,879 was another act of faith across the Atlantic. So we 54 00:03:54,919 --> 00:03:57,560 think about one of those primary principles, and that is 55 00:03:57,599 --> 00:04:00,719 freedom of conscience. And that was very year to the 56 00:04:00,719 --> 00:04:04,039 Pilgrims and a little bit later the Puritans. But we 57 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,960 hold that year today. 58 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,919 Speaker 1: Indeed, and we think about the difficulties of airline travel 59 00:04:11,039 --> 00:04:15,240 today as we get ready to travel all over the 60 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,600 country for the Thanksgiving holiday, But we have nothing to 61 00:04:19,759 --> 00:04:25,319 complain about compared to what the early settlers experienced. What 62 00:04:25,439 --> 00:04:28,360 was that like that very dangerous voyage. 63 00:04:29,399 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: Well on the voyage itself, and then after the anchor offshore, 64 00:04:35,079 --> 00:04:37,879 about half of the one hundred and two passengers died 65 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:43,839 the first winter of sickness, diseases like scurvy, exposure to 66 00:04:43,879 --> 00:04:47,399 the elements, and at one point there's only a handful 67 00:04:47,439 --> 00:04:50,519 of pilgrims, less than ten that are healthy enough to 68 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,800 care for the rest. The first governor, John Carver, died 69 00:04:55,519 --> 00:04:59,639 after the winter of that April, but about a month 70 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,040 before that he was able to sign a peace treaty 71 00:05:02,639 --> 00:05:05,240 with the Chief Massasoit. This is the chief of the 72 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,240 Wampanoagu Indians, and that was after in exchange of greetings 73 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,399 and gifts, and that peace lasted for fifty years. And 74 00:05:13,439 --> 00:05:16,160 so it would be William Bradford who was elected the 75 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:22,279 next governor, and he and one of the colonists, Edward Winslow, 76 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,600 they provided the only two accounts we have of that 77 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,519 first Thanksgiving. But it was very much gratitude for God's 78 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:36,160 providence in protecting those who remained, in securing a bountiful 79 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,519 harvest for that fall. And that's what we celebrate, is 80 00:05:40,519 --> 00:05:45,319 the first Thanksgiving is these three days of celebration in 81 00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:49,240 collecting the harvest. And I looked up some of those accounts, 82 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,399 one of them by Winslow. He writes, quote, our governor 83 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,240 sent four men fouling, so that we might, after a 84 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,639 special manner, rejoice together after we had gathered the fruits 85 00:05:59,639 --> 00:06:03,279 of our life. And he says in one day that 86 00:06:03,319 --> 00:06:05,519 the men that were sent out they killed as many birds, 87 00:06:05,959 --> 00:06:08,279 and that was to last the company. There were fifty 88 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:12,600 three pilgrims, to last them a whole week. And Bradford 89 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,399 and Hit his own account, he wrote, they had a 90 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,800 quote great store of wild turkeys, So our eating turkey 91 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,040 isn't violating any kind of a tradition established in that 92 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,879 first autumn feast. And that's where during their recreation, and 93 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,439 this is when they weren't securing their homes for the 94 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:35,360 upcoming winter, they exercised their arms. So they for weapons. 95 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,879 They had the arvicus and matchlock muskets. And then they 96 00:06:39,879 --> 00:06:43,720 were joined by Chief Massasoit in this early alliance, and 97 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,199 he brought ninety of the Wampanoag warriors, and then he 98 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,800 sent them to kill deer, and so as a gift 99 00:06:50,759 --> 00:06:55,000 to the governor, he gave them five deer. What I 100 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,879 think is fascinating is that that they don't in these accounts, 101 00:06:57,879 --> 00:07:01,959 they don't use the word Thanksgiving. Rather, the days of 102 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,439 Thanksgiving were days of religious observance for prayer and worship, 103 00:07:07,639 --> 00:07:10,199 and not so much the feast that we think of. 104 00:07:11,319 --> 00:07:15,519 And so following this first sixteen twenty one feast, all 105 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,519 of the other colonies would eventually have their own days 106 00:07:18,519 --> 00:07:23,519 of Thanksgiving, and that's where the various political bodies would 107 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,319 call on citizens to thank God for various reasons safe voyages, 108 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,800 military victories, but good weather and harvest. And so the 109 00:07:33,839 --> 00:07:38,399 first official Thanksgiving that's called by Bradford took place in 110 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,240 sixteen twenty three, that's two years after the Pilgrim's arrival, 111 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,480 and they had they had games and food shared with 112 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,480 these the Wampanoid Indian allies. But then it becomes a tradition, 113 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,240 these religious days that are observed and eventually in all 114 00:07:55,279 --> 00:07:58,839 the colonies, and by the end of the sixteen hundreds 115 00:07:59,079 --> 00:08:02,560 all the New England colonies, and usually usually in autumn, 116 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,920 and it was to celebrate the harvest in God's provision 117 00:08:06,639 --> 00:08:07,480 for the settlers. 118 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,759 Speaker 1: It's very interesting to me that the first Thanksgiving first 119 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:21,800 Thanksgiving week or several days involved Benjamin Franklin's preferred national bird, 120 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,399 and that was the turkey. So we started right away 121 00:08:25,879 --> 00:08:29,720 with our turkey tradition. And Benjamin Franklin never did get 122 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,360 the turkey as the national symbol, of course. But what 123 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:40,600 is I think more profound is that here in America, 124 00:08:41,519 --> 00:08:47,799 in what became modern day Massachusetts, you have colonists, people 125 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:54,919 escaping religious oppression, the tyranny of the crown as it 126 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,279 related to you. You described all of those horrible things 127 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:03,279 that happened to those first Americas while they were citizens 128 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,879 of England, and of course they were still citizens of 129 00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:09,679 England in this new colony. But I can only imagine 130 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:15,879 just how much how profound it would feel to be 131 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,519 able to celebrate and to thank God in your own 132 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,840 way without the Crown telling you how to do it 133 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,080 or punishing you for how you did it. 134 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,519 Speaker 2: Yes, And I think what we see is this connection 135 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,000 between self rule that forms in the minds of the 136 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:39,559 people as well as this pursuit of religious freedom. And 137 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,320 I think that the Pilgrims, who are the separatists wanting 138 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,600 to separate from the Church of England, and later the 139 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,080 Puritans who wanted to purify the Church of England. They're 140 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:53,360 part of this broader growing spirit driven by a revolt 141 00:09:53,399 --> 00:09:58,120 against religious hierarchy. And we see that in congregationalism, and 142 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:04,120 that goes hand in hand with Parliament's Parliament's opposition to 143 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,840 the crown under James the First and so and so 144 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,120 you find this congregationalism and self government in the churches 145 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,720 becomes i think a foundation or goes along with self 146 00:10:18,759 --> 00:10:23,960 government in politics. And so it's part of a broader 147 00:10:24,039 --> 00:10:26,879 history of self government. And that's what the Pilgrims and 148 00:10:26,919 --> 00:10:29,519 the Puritans take with them to the New World. And 149 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,159 we find that both in Plymouth Colony and very interesting 150 00:10:34,279 --> 00:10:38,519 in Plymouth Colony that this was this was paid for 151 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,480 by a merchant adventure company. And then when the company 152 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,159 proves to be unprofitable, they don't find gold, they don't 153 00:10:46,159 --> 00:10:50,559 find any of the say the lucrative cash crops for example, 154 00:10:50,759 --> 00:10:54,519 like something like tobacco that would be discovered or planted 155 00:10:54,559 --> 00:11:00,720 later in Virginia. And so those settlers in the sixteen twenties, 156 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,679 eight of them, they actually buy out their own charter 157 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,279 and that means that they own and govern themselves as 158 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,000 a company. And so this agreement that they make with 159 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:16,159 the initial shareholders, transfers all the company's shares and the 160 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,519 and the debt to the colonists themselves, and it takes 161 00:11:19,519 --> 00:11:21,759 them about twenty years to pay that off. So here 162 00:11:21,799 --> 00:11:24,600 you have you have kind of economics and politics going 163 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,120 hand in hand with the Pilgrims as far as for 164 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,519 as far as their own government. Famously, the Mayflower Compact 165 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,120 is signed by the Pilgrims before they before they leave 166 00:11:36,159 --> 00:11:39,360 the ship, and they create what they call a civil 167 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,879 body politic, and that's to enact just laws for the 168 00:11:44,399 --> 00:11:48,720 public good. And we find the same parallel in Massachusetts 169 00:11:48,879 --> 00:11:52,600 where the General Court, that's their legislature, adopts the what's 170 00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:55,000 called the Body of Liberties, and that's that's the first 171 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,639 legal code, and so it drew heavily on earlier codes, 172 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,639 whether in the Old Testament or English common law, and 173 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,919 it includes some of the rights that are later included 174 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,840 in our Bill of Rights, things like freedom from arbitrary punishment, 175 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,000 the right to do process, protection of property, and so on. 176 00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:18,159 Speaker 1: When all of this started, I have heard this before, 177 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,120 and please correct me if this is just apocryphal or 178 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,440 what have you, but I have heard tales that when 179 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:30,720 these colonists first came over, there was more of a 180 00:12:30,919 --> 00:12:36,000 shared communal approach, one might even call it socialism, and 181 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,720 they quickly found that that didn't work. Like the people 182 00:12:40,759 --> 00:12:44,639 in New York City are about where he discover once 183 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,159 again is there any truth to that? And that's where 184 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:54,960 they turned you further to more individual liberty and Adam 185 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,559 Smith capitalist models, those sorts of things. 186 00:12:58,039 --> 00:13:01,799 Speaker 2: You know, I think normally that is that's the idea 187 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:07,320 that the failure of socialism is applied to Virginia, the 188 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,559 settlement at Jamestown, the idea that you know, if men, 189 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,120 if men didn't work, they wouldn't eat. I think that 190 00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:19,000 was the general religious principle that informed the pilgrims in 191 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,039 Plymouth as well as as well as in Massachusetts. I 192 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,399 think what happens is is that over time that very 193 00:13:27,639 --> 00:13:30,840 communal spirit in which there is a commons surrounded by 194 00:13:30,879 --> 00:13:35,759 private property, does eventually give way as migration increases and 195 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,519 the government expands, and there are broader questions as to 196 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,480 who is able to participate in self government. So first 197 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,919 you had to be a member of the church. Kind 198 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,480 of famously, there's a halfway covenant to expand the membership 199 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,679 even for those who were not able to testify to 200 00:13:51,759 --> 00:13:55,840 a personal conversion experience. I think what eventually happens throughout 201 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,679 the sixteen hundred is that communal spirit that was very 202 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,559 import in which you had say, communal grazing land surrounded 203 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:09,799 by private property. That as more migrants come into Massachusetts, 204 00:14:10,039 --> 00:14:13,000 that some of those elements of the strict scrutiny of 205 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,759 individual behavior falls away. And you had mentioned Benjamin Franklin earlier. 206 00:14:18,919 --> 00:14:21,320 When you get into the early seventeen hundreds, there's more 207 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,039 of a liberal element to Christianity. And so if you 208 00:14:25,039 --> 00:14:27,240 think of the way that the Puritans viewed their role, 209 00:14:27,679 --> 00:14:31,080 there were officers called the tithesman. The Quakers had a 210 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:36,879 similar model, and that's where in a confessional church you 211 00:14:36,879 --> 00:14:40,159 would have someone that would monitor the family, the children, 212 00:14:40,559 --> 00:14:43,720 would make sure the children were properly catechised. And I 213 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,000 think those intrusive elements, some of those fall by the wayside. 214 00:14:47,039 --> 00:14:49,039 By the time you get to the early seventeen. 215 00:14:48,679 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 3: Hundreds, have consumers lost the streaming wars the watched Out 216 00:14:55,519 --> 00:14:58,480 on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris 217 00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:01,320 helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and 218 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,039 how it affects your wallet. Prices for streaming services continues 219 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,320 to rise, but now they want to put all of 220 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,240 the apps back in one place. Would you rather go 221 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,960 back to the old days of basic cable? Whether it's 222 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,159 happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting 223 00:15:15,159 --> 00:15:15,840 you financially. 224 00:15:15,919 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: Be informed. 225 00:15:16,519 --> 00:15:18,559 Speaker 3: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 226 00:15:18,679 --> 00:15:21,600 Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 227 00:15:25,159 --> 00:15:30,399 Speaker 1: Yeah. I suppose the evolution of you know, just as 228 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,480 more and more people come in, you know, you have 229 00:15:35,639 --> 00:15:41,639 more and more of these individual liberties, more and more individualism. 230 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,200 And I think that that is foundational because you don't 231 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:51,639 get onto, you know, a rickety wooden ship and sail 232 00:15:51,799 --> 00:15:56,440 across the rough Atlantic seas, lose half of the people 233 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,320 on the trip, and encounter all kinds of new ailments 234 00:16:01,399 --> 00:16:06,399 and diseases in the new world without a couple of things. 235 00:16:06,759 --> 00:16:11,759 If you survive, I think your faith in God must 236 00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:17,639 be affected by that. And I think that you also 237 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,600 get a sense of if I'm going to do this thing, 238 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,200 I'm going to have to do much of this on 239 00:16:24,279 --> 00:16:30,000 my own. Is that where this individualism that I think, 240 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,519 unfortunately we've lost a great deal of in modern times. 241 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,480 Is that where the American individualism came from. 242 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that the individuals play a larger role 243 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:45,039 in their congregations. You know, for example, the Mathers, so 244 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,840 Cotton Increase Mather They actually wanted to set up a 245 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:53,240 synod Massachusetts, and this was opposed by local congregations that 246 00:16:53,399 --> 00:16:56,200 ministered it. S which his name was John Wise, and 247 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,840 he's one of the one of the colonists who led 248 00:17:00,039 --> 00:17:03,159 opposition to what was called the Dominion of New England, 249 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,160 in which the New England charters were revoked to be 250 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:09,480 under the control of the crown. And so just as 251 00:17:09,559 --> 00:17:12,359 William to Marry take the throne in sixteen eighty eight 252 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,000 eighty nine, there's a parallel revolt in New England. So 253 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,799 individuals in their local congregations are exercising more influence, and 254 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,480 I think this plays out throughout the colonies. It means 255 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,079 that ministers do they have to listen to those in 256 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,799 their parish. They have to satisfy some of their requests 257 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:33,480 in order to receive funding. So if you don't have 258 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:35,960 these large state churches, then you have to look to 259 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:40,200 your own parishioners for subscriptions to fund those churches. I 260 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,079 also think that the participation in the local government, we 261 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,599 find elements of individualism there. I was to quote from 262 00:17:48,839 --> 00:17:51,880 one of the Pilgrims, man by the name of William Hilton. 263 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,319 He says, I quote, we are all freeholders. The rent 264 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,519 day does not trouble us, and all those good blessings 265 00:17:59,559 --> 00:18:02,079 we have, of which and what we list in their 266 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,799 seasons for taking. He says, quote. Our company are for 267 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,000 most part very religious, honest people. The Word of God 268 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,960 sincerely taught us every Sabbath, so that I know not 269 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,839 any a thing a contented mind can here want. It's interesting, 270 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,720 he says, we're freeholders because if you look at the 271 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,880 English tradition, the twin pillars of English liberties are to 272 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,799 serve on juries even for those who were tenants, but 273 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:29,759 then also for those who had a certain minimum threshold 274 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,559 of income from land, the freeholders. And so if you 275 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,519 traveled to the New World, you could be a freeholder, 276 00:18:35,599 --> 00:18:40,319 and that secured the privileges and the rights, but also 277 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,160 as well as the duties of citizenship. And so I 278 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,519 think the individuals who see themselves as playing a prominent 279 00:18:46,599 --> 00:18:48,839 role in their own congregations as well as in their 280 00:18:48,839 --> 00:18:53,599 own politics, produces this distinctly American character, and I think 281 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,279 it's properly described as a citizenship revolution, as opposed to 282 00:18:58,319 --> 00:19:02,640 being near subjects. Them can see themselves as citizens. And 283 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,720 if we were to extend that out, we would say 284 00:19:05,039 --> 00:19:08,720 in New England you find opposition to their treatment as subjects. 285 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,799 And this is going on in the late seventeenth century, 286 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,400 so part of the resistance against the dominion of New England, 287 00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:18,000 and there were four more attempts by the Crown to 288 00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:21,319 repeal their charters before seventeen twenty two. 289 00:19:22,319 --> 00:19:25,839 Speaker 1: Our guest today is Kevin Slack, Associate professor of Politics 290 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,559 at Hillsdale College. We're talking about the colonists, the early 291 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,079 founders of this exceptional republic of ours, as we give 292 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:43,400 thanksgiving to the concept of liberty and freedom, not just 293 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:48,720 the concept, the fact that these people struggled and suffered 294 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:54,799 and prevailed to bring us this liberty in this republic. 295 00:19:56,279 --> 00:20:01,839 We'll talk about an interesting new class that Hillsdale offers 296 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,039 on colonial America coming up a little bit later. But 297 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:13,839 how long did these early colonists basically subsist exist without 298 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,000 too much hassle from the mother country. 299 00:20:18,599 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 2: Well, I think you know you're you're pointing to one 300 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,200 of the early problems from the from the perspective of 301 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,319 of you know, we'd later be called Britain or England, 302 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,119 and that is they were very self subsisting. You know, 303 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,519 we recall that there's there's an English Civil War that 304 00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:38,039 goes on that culminates in the you know, the beheading 305 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,880 of the king. And so during this period of time, 306 00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:44,319 the Puritans, who were quite radical, they're the ones who 307 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,480 initially fill out Cromwell's army. They're governing themselves in Massachusetts. 308 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,039 And so when when there is eventually peace in England 309 00:20:54,279 --> 00:20:57,480 and the Crown tries to restore authority, there had been 310 00:20:57,559 --> 00:21:01,039 decades and decades of self rule, not to mention that 311 00:21:01,799 --> 00:21:05,920 with the restoration of the monarch uh there was an 312 00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:11,599 establishment of an Anglican Church and this attempt to to 313 00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:15,400 to weed out the kinds of troublesome dissenters that had 314 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,119 been part of the Civil War. And so you have 315 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:23,440 the Puritans, who are are not as fashionable back home 316 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,759 in England, who are the ones who are making decisions 317 00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:29,480 in Massachusetts. And so they got used to they got 318 00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:32,799 used to defying the dictates of the lords of trade. 319 00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:36,079 For example, when they would pass an act they would 320 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,160 they would they would include an expiration it with sunset 321 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,079 in a year, and that by the time that it 322 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,119 had acrossed the Atlantic uh and had been seen by 323 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,319 the Lords of Trade and made it back across the water, 324 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,359 it had already expired. Whether the lords of Trade wanted 325 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,799 to veto it or not. Uh. They issued their own 326 00:21:52,839 --> 00:21:56,559 currency in violation of dictates of the lords of trade. 327 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,680 They opposed very much. Some of the order is about 328 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,799 for keeping pine trees for ships and so on. So 329 00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:09,920 you have this vibrant political system in Massachusetts, particularly with 330 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:16,200 the establishment of a new Charter, and I think that 331 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,000 that that habit of self government really takes off. So 332 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,559 in the opposition to the dominion of New England that 333 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,799 begins in the in the town of Ipswich, and they 334 00:22:24,799 --> 00:22:27,240 have a meeting and all the leaders of the meeting 335 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,960 there directly oppose this the attempt to try to tax 336 00:22:31,079 --> 00:22:35,079 them under Governor Edmund Andros to tax them without their consent. 337 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,279 And that's where John Wise this this kind of big 338 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:43,039 wrestler of a minister at Ipswich. He's brought before one 339 00:22:43,039 --> 00:22:46,960 of the judges and he starts to claim all the 340 00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:49,680 rights that he believed he had as an Englishman right, 341 00:22:49,759 --> 00:22:53,160 not as a subject, but as an English citizen. And 342 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,400 he claims the magnet, the Magna carta and other constitutional rights, 343 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,880 and the judge says, John, wise, don't think that you're 344 00:23:00,319 --> 00:23:02,039 follow you to the end of the earth. You have 345 00:23:02,079 --> 00:23:04,039 the right not to be sold for a slave. 346 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: That was it. 347 00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 2: And so you have this as being one of many 348 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,279 moments where the colonists recognized that they don't actually have 349 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,839 the same rights as Englishmen, and continue that on out 350 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,400 through this period of salutary neglect throughout the mid seventeen hundreds, 351 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,000 and that builds into the disputes over taxation after the 352 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:22,960 French and Indian War. 353 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:27,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one of the great blessings that the 354 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:33,680 early colonists had was an ocean three thousands, you know, 355 00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:38,839 thousands of miles away from the mother country, and you know, 356 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,039 England can send over all kinds of the crown consentive 357 00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:46,480 were all kinds of writs and directives and orders and things. 358 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,599 They wouldn't get there for some time. But then of course, 359 00:23:50,759 --> 00:23:56,119 as you know, the ships travel improves, you get more 360 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:01,000 and more people coming over. And then two add to 361 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,480 all of this self rule that's going on or to 362 00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:08,799 inject into the self rule. Now you have, as you mentioned, 363 00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:18,519 the motherland and its leaders now sending over governors and 364 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,440 those who are responsible for enforcing the rule of the 365 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,319 crown in America. How did that go over? 366 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 2: You know, it doesn't go over well in many colonies. 367 00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:36,319 And you could say that that period of you know, 368 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,720 what's often called salutary neglect seventeen twenties all the way 369 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,880 into the seventeen fifties is typified by battles between the 370 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,599 governors or the lieutenant governors that are appointed by proprietors 371 00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:52,640 and the colonial assemblies. That's where Benjamin Franklin. You know, 372 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,400 we think of Franklin as this old revolutionary, but he 373 00:24:56,519 --> 00:24:59,359 really gets the beginning of his career is as the 374 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,799 is as as a member of the Pennsylvania Assembly. Eventually 375 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,240 he's a speaker and eleaits opposition two to the proprietors there. 376 00:25:09,319 --> 00:25:12,599 And it's also the case that the colonies are all 377 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,119 very different. They have there's different migrants who settle there, 378 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:23,119 but eventually they start to have their own independent identities 379 00:25:23,599 --> 00:25:26,720 and over a period of time will have eventually a 380 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,960 collective identity and opposition to what they see is British tyranny. So, 381 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,880 for example, we think of this this important freedom of 382 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:40,599 religious toleration. Well, the Puritans were not very tolerant, particularly 383 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:47,240 for those like the Quakers, and in fact for those 384 00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:50,519 who those who were somewhat outcasts who didn't agree with 385 00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:54,559 the religious principles of Puritanism. Anne Hutchinson is one, Roger 386 00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:58,839 Williams is another. They would banish them from Massachusetts and 387 00:25:58,839 --> 00:26:01,440 they would send them to you know, what became Rhode Island. 388 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,039 In fact, Cotton Mather called Rhode Island the sewer of Massachusetts. 389 00:26:05,039 --> 00:26:07,960 That's what they would flush all their refuse for those 390 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,319 who didn't agree with what they argued was true. I 391 00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:16,079 think in a colony like Pennsylvania, what you have, because 392 00:26:16,079 --> 00:26:19,000 it's settled by the Quakers is and they were on 393 00:26:19,079 --> 00:26:22,079 the bottom of the totem pole there in the hierarchy 394 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,000 of the most persecuted is they begin to see that 395 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:30,400 it's better to tolerate those of different religious beliefs. So 396 00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:34,720 you have this principle of religious toleration that grows up 397 00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:37,920 in some of the colonies. And then they acquire their 398 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,119 own identities, and eventually an identity that's truly American, and 399 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,039 they can appeal to those broadly American principles. 400 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,039 Speaker 1: We had Rhode Island, and of course Maryland was its 401 00:26:48,079 --> 00:26:52,079 own entity. All of these. Now, as we talked about 402 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:58,279 before these Englanders escaping from religious oppression, Catholics did the 403 00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:04,279 same thing, found sanctuary and home in Maryland. How did 404 00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:11,640 these different faiths and religions then interact and then how 405 00:27:11,759 --> 00:27:20,400 eventually did it become fairly established that you can here 406 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,319 in America, you escaped from oppression, religious oppression in England, 407 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,440 you can follow your own conscience here in this country. 408 00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 2: Well, the idea that there is a freedom of conscience, 409 00:27:33,319 --> 00:27:37,079 that's conscience, that's a sacred right of Englishmen. We see 410 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,279 references to that, I mean among the Puritans themselves. The 411 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,920 idea that you would then tolerate others. I think it's 412 00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:51,279 present in colonies like Pennsylvania, probably earlier than the others. Catholics, 413 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:57,480 other religious faiths poses an interesting It's an interesting case 414 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,759 because it's Catholics under Low Baltimore that settle Maryland. When 415 00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:05,799 the Protestants take over, they start to deprive Catholics of 416 00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:09,920 their civil rights, they tax them, and it's only during 417 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,119 this revolutionary period that Catholics begin to find an alliance 418 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,200 with Protestants politically, and they start to claim many of 419 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,400 those principles that are the foundation for the revolution. So 420 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:26,160 you could look at, for example, the Carrolls, Charles Carroll, 421 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,799 John Carroll, and John Carroll's the first American bishop. He's 422 00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:34,359 actually Benjamin Franklin argues to the papal nuncio that he 423 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,559 should be appointed that But they are making arguments that 424 00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:42,160 as Catholics, they may not agree with Protestants on theological issues, 425 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,599 but they do believe in civic toleration, and so they 426 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,839 can all agree that there are certain natural rights that 427 00:28:48,839 --> 00:28:52,880 they possess as part of natural law under God. And 428 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,799 this can unify various religious groups. So you have Catholics, 429 00:28:56,839 --> 00:29:01,039 you have Jews, but there's still a very small percentage 430 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,880 of the population, probably no more than two percent. America 431 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,599 is very much a Protestant nation. But finding a way 432 00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:12,720 to try to balance those different Protestant sects, and that 433 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:15,640 was the course of battle in the early statehood. So 434 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,640 in Virginia in seventeen eighty five eighty six, Jefferson and 435 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,279 Madison very famously issued the remonstrance to argue against a 436 00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:27,359 state church, which is what George Washington and Patrick Henry wanted. 437 00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:31,359 They believed that in order to support morality, there ought 438 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,400 to be some kind of public teaching of the Christian faith. 439 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,839 And so in the New England States there are established churches, 440 00:29:39,559 --> 00:29:43,559 but they're phased out, I believe eighteen thirty three by 441 00:29:43,599 --> 00:29:46,359 that time, and I think it was because Americans were 442 00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:49,759 a very religious people and they basically saw how some 443 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,599 kind of relation between church and state, a very close affiliation, 444 00:29:53,799 --> 00:29:57,160 could lead to corruption or favoritism. And so there are 445 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,000 all these other ways that the states, all of them 446 00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:03,640 endorse religion in various ways. Probably the most important is 447 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,039 tax exempt status, and you see many progressives going after that. 448 00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:12,279 But that's a way of trying to endorse further religion. Obviously, prayer, 449 00:30:12,359 --> 00:30:16,200 the reading of Bible and schools, the Blue laws on Sunday, 450 00:30:16,279 --> 00:30:21,480 blasphemy laws, the open prayers, proclamations by a national assemblies, 451 00:30:21,559 --> 00:30:23,240 state assemblies. Is another example. 452 00:30:24,319 --> 00:30:28,279 Speaker 1: Was a very faithful country founded as a very faithful country, 453 00:30:28,279 --> 00:30:34,279 a very Christian country that said it was a country 454 00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:39,880 that was heading toward divorce from the crown from England. 455 00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:45,279 Did the French Indian War, the Seven Years War? Did that? 456 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:52,240 Was that a firing line. After there was a sense 457 00:30:52,279 --> 00:30:59,119 of unification of Englanders, of England and its colonist through 458 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:06,160 this war. Afterwards things turned pretty sharply in terms of control. 459 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,720 But was that kind of the line that began the 460 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:11,880 march to independence? 461 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,079 Speaker 2: Yes, that was I'm thinking here. John Adams says a 462 00:31:16,119 --> 00:31:19,759 pretty famous letter to Hezekia Niles in eighteen eighteen, and 463 00:31:19,759 --> 00:31:23,279 he's describing the origins of the American Revolution, and he 464 00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:25,480 says it wasn't the war, he said, it was a 465 00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:28,680 change in the hearts and minds of the colonists. He 466 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,519 says that once they realized that Britain had no affection 467 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,920 for them, they didn't see it was their duty to 468 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,200 pray for the king, it wasn't their duty to obey 469 00:31:38,319 --> 00:31:42,039 when they realized they themselves would not be reciprocally protected. 470 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,480 So with the French invading war, I think we find 471 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,039 is this culminating point in which the British are taxing 472 00:31:49,799 --> 00:31:53,799 the colonists without their consent. They're instituting by admiralty courts, 473 00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:56,039 so they're depriving them of the fundamental rights to trial 474 00:31:56,079 --> 00:32:00,240 by jury and the usual things that you learn at school. Well, 475 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:03,480 I do think that those that rift had begun one 476 00:32:03,519 --> 00:32:07,119 hundred years earlier. And why the French Inadian war is 477 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,160 so important is that the British government, as any war, 478 00:32:11,599 --> 00:32:14,480 required taxes to pay for an immense debt. It had 479 00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:17,599 acquired something like one hundred and thirty million pounds and 480 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,880 a large interest on that debt. Also, because it had 481 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,079 formed a large empire, the British government needed lots of 482 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,680 money to pay for administration. I think it rose from 483 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,799 something like seventy thousand pounds to three hundred thousand pounds 484 00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:34,319 a year to administer the colonies. And during the war 485 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,079 we find a rift I think between the colonists and 486 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,519 the mother country as to the role the colonists themselves 487 00:32:41,559 --> 00:32:44,200 had played. I think from the British point of view, 488 00:32:44,359 --> 00:32:47,480 the generals involved, those like Jeffrey Amherst, they saw the 489 00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:51,519 colonists as being freeloaders, as not having any kind of 490 00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:56,640 a an altruistic mind to help serve the empire. They 491 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:03,480 saw the colonists as providing second rates soldiers, and the colonists, 492 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,680 from their point of view, they had levied, you know, 493 00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:09,799 nine ten thousand troops a year in conscription. They filled 494 00:33:09,839 --> 00:33:13,519 out the normal time allotted per conscription they paid a 495 00:33:13,519 --> 00:33:16,920 lot of money, and so in their minds they performed 496 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,319 nobly in the requisitions and felt that they were not respected. 497 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,119 And so when it came to taxation, what they wanted 498 00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:28,559 was a British request, something approved through their own legislative assemblies. 499 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,960 And rather what they got were strong arm tactics, eventually 500 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,039 to the point of to the point of sending British 501 00:33:36,039 --> 00:33:40,039 soldiers over in seventeen sixty eight to places like Boston. 502 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,160 And this really sets the conflict and motion in the 503 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,839 conflicts between the British regulars and the locals. So the 504 00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:51,279 British regulars would frequent local taverns. These were the centers 505 00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:53,880 of social life. They would try to date local women, 506 00:33:54,039 --> 00:33:58,000 all the things right that would lead to conflict between 507 00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:00,599 an occupying army and a people. 508 00:34:01,319 --> 00:34:04,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were. The colonists were forced to take the 509 00:34:04,839 --> 00:34:11,039 soldiers into their homes. They were forced into taxation without representation. 510 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,119 They at least wanted someone to represent them from a 511 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:20,480 colonist to represent them in Parliament, and at every turn 512 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:29,440 it was no, no, no, And eventually that has a 513 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,960 price to pay. So we get to the eve of 514 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:40,599 seventeen seventy five. This wasn't the March to Independence was 515 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:45,960 not a straight line, was it. 516 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 3: So? 517 00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:51,199 Speaker 1: The March the Independence, I would say, I guess to 518 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:56,480 be more clear. You know, there were some some radicals, 519 00:34:56,599 --> 00:35:00,719 if you will. At the time. John Adams didn't start 520 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,159 out to be a radical. Benjamin Franklin did not start 521 00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,440 out to be a radical. They didn't start out to 522 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:12,639 believe that there should be a severing of ties between 523 00:35:13,119 --> 00:35:17,400 America and its mother country. But they were more and 524 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,239 more convinced, and they became more and more convincing as 525 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,000 time passed. 526 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there were some key British politicians, so someone 527 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:32,920 like William Pitt who there were key British members of 528 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,840 Parliament who were actually arguing for a more favorable treatment 529 00:35:38,119 --> 00:35:43,079 of the colonist representation, those kinds of things. And so Franklin, 530 00:35:43,119 --> 00:35:47,039 you know, very famously describes the British empires this delicate 531 00:35:47,199 --> 00:35:51,199 China base that he didn't wish to see broken because 532 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:54,320 it could never be repaired. And I think on the 533 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,480 colonist part, there were many, particularly those who invested interests, 534 00:35:57,599 --> 00:36:03,920 people like Jonathan Dickinson, who wanted to preserve the peace 535 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,320 and the security of the empire. But there were also 536 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,719 many in Britain in the ministry who thought that again 537 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,960 the colonists were not paying their fair share. And if 538 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,920 you think about when so the two major taxes, the 539 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,519 Sugar Act of seventeen sixty four and the Stamp Act 540 00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:25,400 of seventeen sixty five, that when the Stamp Act is 541 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,280 repealed and the British passed the Declaratory Act, that the 542 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:34,039 Declaratory Act was similar to the Irish Declaratory Act that 543 00:36:34,199 --> 00:36:38,159 said the colonists were entitled to no rights of their own. 544 00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:41,239 And I think after and then you know, after the 545 00:36:41,679 --> 00:36:45,920 repeal of the Townshend duties, that the colonists realize and 546 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,000 those who are leaders realized that there's no way that 547 00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:52,320 they are going to win this. And for Benjamin Franklin 548 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,119 in particular, famously he stands before the cockpit and he's 549 00:36:56,639 --> 00:37:01,079 he's attacked by Solicitor Wedderburn. Seems to be an important 550 00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:04,360 moment for Franklin, and the way that he describes it 551 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,159 in his meeting with Admiral Howe, with John Adams and 552 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,000 others in the attempt of the British to try to 553 00:37:12,159 --> 00:37:15,760 avert revolution, was that the pride on the side of 554 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,159 the British would make reconciliation impossible, And he said, even 555 00:37:20,199 --> 00:37:22,519 if we could forgive you, he said, you could never 556 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,039 forget the way that you have treated us. And so 557 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,039 at that point, this is after Lexington and Concord, this 558 00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:34,400 final meeting, the colonial leaders themselves are saying there's no 559 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,960 going back. But there were various attempts to try to reconcile. 560 00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: So as we think about the first Thanksgivings and then 561 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:50,519 moving in as the revolutionary war begins, what is Thanksgiving 562 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:56,280 like at you know, some of these war torn places, 563 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:01,320 people who you know are fighting for a cause, but 564 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,880 they're doing so without shoes and without food in their stomachs. 565 00:38:08,039 --> 00:38:15,599 Valley Forge, Roanoke, Charleston. What's Thanksgiving like for these new Americans? 566 00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think Thanksgiving had been part of the colonial 567 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:29,639 religious mindset, where again the legislatures are declaring days of Thanksgiving, fasting, humiliation, prayer, 568 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,920 and so on. From the mid seventeen seventies until the 569 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,559 mid seventeen eighties, the Continental Congress is issuing proclamations and 570 00:38:39,639 --> 00:38:42,800 it was usually about two a year to call the 571 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:49,039 Americans to fasting and humiliation in prayer or to Thanksgiving. 572 00:38:49,159 --> 00:38:53,000 Usually Thanksgiving was the latter. In the autumn. And then 573 00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:55,800 George Washington is the first president who's going to issue 574 00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,360 with a Thanksgiving proclamation set for November twenty six, seventeen 575 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,599 eighty nine, And just a quote from some of that, 576 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,719 he says, to be devoted by the people of these 577 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,519 states to the service of that great and glorious Being 578 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,800 who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, 579 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,800 that is, or that will be. That we may ven 580 00:39:16,079 --> 00:39:19,360 all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble 581 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,440 thanks for his kind care and protection of the people 582 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,719 of this country previous to their becoming a nation. And 583 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,000 so Washington is the one who establishes this first Thanksgiving, 584 00:39:29,039 --> 00:39:32,199 although it's a recommendation to the states rather to participate 585 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,320 in it. He will do it a second time in 586 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,440 seventeen ninety five. Madison has a Thanksgiving proclamation in eighteen fifteen. 587 00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:44,360 And then Lincoln is the one who sets a national 588 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:45,440 day for Thanksgiving. 589 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: Yes, And he said it, of course, as the country 590 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:56,679 was falling apart in the middle of a devastating civil war. 591 00:39:57,119 --> 00:40:03,639 And Lincoln knew and and he encouraged his fellow Americans 592 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,239 to turn to God during these dark times. And I 593 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,519 think that's The unifying theme, isn't it of the earth? 594 00:40:12,519 --> 00:40:19,000 From the early colonists to the Civil War, to global war, 595 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:24,440 to trials and tribulations to nine to eleven, it is 596 00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:30,000 still I hope Americans turning to their faith, turning to 597 00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:40,159 the deity that gives them their rights. Are we in 598 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:41,880 danger of losing all of that? 599 00:40:43,679 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 2: I think we are. I think that Americans have had 600 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,199 a long tradition of what we call self reliance, but 601 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,119 that a day of Thanksgiving is an opportunity for us 602 00:40:54,119 --> 00:40:58,719 to realize that our possibilities of self reliance rely on 603 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,320 something much greater than our else. 604 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:07,039 Speaker 1: Indeed, there is a fascinating course that is about to 605 00:41:07,079 --> 00:41:09,360 be offered at Hillsdale. I just wanted to touch upon 606 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:15,840 that momentarily. It is called Colonial America From Wilderness to Civilization. 607 00:41:16,039 --> 00:41:18,000 Can you tell us a little bit more about that? 608 00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 2: Well, it's the origin of the course, as I understand it. 609 00:41:24,199 --> 00:41:27,440 It was birthed in the idea that to understand the 610 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,920 American Revolution it was about knowing more than the Declaration 611 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,199 of Independence, which is incredibly important, it was also to 612 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,280 know much about the traditions that were rooted in and 613 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,679 Thanksgiving being one of those, and so I and other 614 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,480 Hillsdale professors are interviewed in a documentary in working with 615 00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:50,559 a company Distant Moon, which does a wonderful job in 616 00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:55,400 production to just describe the various eras of the American 617 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,039 colonial period that lead us up to this remarkable revolution 618 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,159 and the fulfillment of the principles that we're talking about. 619 00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:08,880 Speaker 1: Well, and I believe it all starts November twenty fifth, 620 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,519 so coming up very soon next week. As a matter 621 00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:16,840 of fact, how would one go about tuning in or 622 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,400 tapping into this resource? 623 00:42:20,199 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 2: You know that that's actually outside of my wheelhouse. My 624 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,559 guess is is that you would contact somebody in marketing. 625 00:42:29,039 --> 00:42:33,920 I know that they've been releasing these documentaries once once 626 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,719 a week. The first one is already out. I know 627 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,559 for some of those who were there at the original showing, 628 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,960 they were given access to I think six of them. No, November 629 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,800 twenty fifth for everyone, what's that be? November twenty fifth 630 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,039 for everyone? November twenty fifth for everyone. I was just told, 631 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:52,760 So that's what. 632 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: Was that for? What was Kevin? What was that voice 633 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,920 on high sound? Sounded like a proclamation coming our way 634 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:01,559 from a higher power. 635 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,119 Speaker 2: That was the divine Peter Slaighton the Divine who I 636 00:43:05,159 --> 00:43:09,360 had a revelation. All the episodes are available on Thanksgiving. 637 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 1: An epiphany on Thanksgiving. That's absolutely right, So November twenty 638 00:43:13,519 --> 00:43:15,920 fifth is when you'll be able to find all of 639 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,679 the episode Sounds Fascinating Colonial America from wilderness to civilization. 640 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:24,280 You can find it online at Hillsdale College. What I 641 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:29,239 think we have gotten a better picture of is really 642 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,360 why we should be thankful as we approach Thanksgiving. And Kevin, 643 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,239 I'm thankful for you for sharing that with us, the 644 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,119 history and the blood and bones of it all. 645 00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and thank you for the opportunity to discuss it. 646 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,280 I think Thanksgiving is a wonderful time, particularly in a 647 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,159 period of political turmoil, for us to try to remember 648 00:43:48,159 --> 00:43:52,400 the things that are most important. Family, a certain gratitude 649 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,159 to God, and to love the ones that were privileged 650 00:43:56,199 --> 00:43:56,599 to be with. 651 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 1: Absolutely, let's help those kindsversations around the dinner table keep 652 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,880 in mind everything that you just mentioned. Thanks to my 653 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:11,280 guest today, Kevin Slack, Associate Professor of Politics at Hillsdale College, 654 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,280 you've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 655 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,800 I'm Matt Kittle, Senior elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll 656 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,920 be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of 657 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:40,960 freedom and anxious for the fray.