1 00:00:18,359 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,399 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist, 3 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:30,440 and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. As always, 4 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,200 you can email the show at radio at the Federalist 5 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,600 dot com, follow us on x at FDR LST, make 6 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,520 sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and of 7 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,280 course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:43,759 --> 00:00:46,840 Our guest today is Clyde Wayne Cruz of the Competitive 9 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,520 Enterprise Institute. He joins us to talk about the latest 10 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:56,679 ten thousand Commandments, the cost burden of the massive mountains 11 00:00:56,719 --> 00:01:02,079 of federal regulations that each American American big businesses are facing. Clyde, 12 00:01:02,079 --> 00:01:03,840 thank you so much for joining us in this edition 13 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,040 of the Federalist Radio Hour. 14 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: You bet, I appreciate you having me. Thanks for thinking 15 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,159 of us and taking all this interest in the regulatory state. 16 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,079 Speaker 1: Oh, we're being buried by it every day. I don't think. 17 00:01:14,159 --> 00:01:16,560 I don't think the average American knows just how much. 18 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,799 That's what the focus of this podcast today is really 19 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,319 all about. You write that Washington regulations got worse under 20 00:01:24,359 --> 00:01:28,719 President Joe Biden, and I think we can understand that 21 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,359 having lived through it. Yes, because his administration sought to 22 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:40,400 impose progressive rules against energy, consumer appliances, labor, banking, online speech, 23 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,680 and other sectors of the economy. There's looking over the 24 00:01:45,719 --> 00:01:51,200 previous four years, it would seem if it was moving, 25 00:01:51,599 --> 00:01:56,200 as former President Ronald Reagan said, this administration was going 26 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,400 to try to tax it or regulate it. Is that 27 00:01:59,439 --> 00:02:01,400 an over statement of the problem. 28 00:02:01,879 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: No, you got it exactly right. I was you know, 29 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,840 I was noticing the other day. This is now thirty 30 00:02:06,879 --> 00:02:09,080 two years that I've been putting this report together. 31 00:02:10,159 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: And let me just say, wow, you've done this a while. 32 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,479 Speaker 2: Yes, I've been doing this a while. And you know 33 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,360 I took I got interested in this study in economics 34 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,000 at George Mason University, and you know, so many groups 35 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,879 in town focused on tax and budget. But I'm here 36 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,919 to tell you if you're missing the regulatory state, you're 37 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,199 missing the biggest part of what the of what the 38 00:02:29,199 --> 00:02:34,639 federal government's intervention in the economy is. You might remember, well, 39 00:02:35,039 --> 00:02:37,960 just just for framing this year, the federal government is 40 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,960 set to spend seven trillion dollars with a deficit of 41 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,639 two trillion dollars. Now that's a two trillion dollar deficit 42 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,840 without the excuse of COVID right, and no means place 43 00:02:50,159 --> 00:02:54,439 so you you've already got a gargantuan federal regulatory state. 44 00:02:54,439 --> 00:02:58,360 In that respect, we have been tabulating. And the way 45 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,000 to think of this, I do this report ten thousand 46 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:08,199 commandments surveying trends in federal regulations. That's environmental, health and safety, labor, paperwork, burdens, 47 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,719 all that sort of thing. And if you compare to 48 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,159 that seven trillion dollar federal budget, I use a placeholder 49 00:03:16,199 --> 00:03:19,599 for the cost of regulation matter of two trillion dollars, well, 50 00:03:19,599 --> 00:03:22,400 two point one point five to five. You know, obviously 51 00:03:22,479 --> 00:03:26,680 it's not that exact. We're not economic planners. In fact, 52 00:03:27,039 --> 00:03:30,080 you can't even say that we on the outside can 53 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,800 observe and determine what regulatory costs faced by others are. 54 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,840 But we can say two trillion is a good baseline 55 00:03:36,879 --> 00:03:40,280 because I'm using older numbers from the federal government, which 56 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:43,840 is supposed to measure itself based on the regulatory right 57 00:03:43,919 --> 00:03:47,439 to no act, but surprise, surprise, it doesn't. It's supposed 58 00:03:47,479 --> 00:03:50,280 to tabulate then aggrega regulation, but it doesn't do it. 59 00:03:50,319 --> 00:03:53,759 But since the nineties, there's been at least, you know, 60 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:56,520 close to a trillion that the federal government did admitted to. 61 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,400 I've compiled figures from various studies. There's a new NAM 62 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:04,000 National Association of Manufacturer study that puts that puts the 63 00:04:04,039 --> 00:04:07,599 cost at three trillion. I'm comfortable using this two trillion 64 00:04:07,599 --> 00:04:11,039 placeholder because what I'm trying to do is get Congress 65 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,680 to force agencies to own up to the cost of regulation, 66 00:04:14,759 --> 00:04:17,160 but more than that, for Congress to take back that power, 67 00:04:17,199 --> 00:04:22,319 because our real problem is over delegation. Congress disregards its 68 00:04:22,519 --> 00:04:25,079 Article one powers of it's supposed to be the only 69 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,759 one making laws. Found our founder, Fred Smith would say, 70 00:04:29,759 --> 00:04:32,000 the Constitution isn't perfect, but it's better than what we 71 00:04:32,079 --> 00:04:35,920 have now in terms of regulation and the administrative state. 72 00:04:36,519 --> 00:04:39,439 Congress has delegated so much of that power. And that's 73 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,759 what you were asking about Biden, and that's what set 74 00:04:42,879 --> 00:04:48,000 Biden on his path to pursuing progressive regulatory ends and 75 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:53,959 climate equity, the care economy, all of these progressive pursuits 76 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,560 that kind of replace the original Constitution. But I'll just 77 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,319 say quick on that two trillion figure, it's equivalent to 78 00:05:01,399 --> 00:05:04,240 the deficit as we touched on, but two trillion is 79 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,439 also what the individual income tax seats are now roughly, 80 00:05:08,959 --> 00:05:12,279 and if you think of corporate tax receipts, those are 81 00:05:12,319 --> 00:05:15,480 around five hundred billions, So regulatory costs four times what 82 00:05:15,519 --> 00:05:18,800 the corporate income tax is. Corporate pre tax profits around 83 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,319 three and a half trillion, so regulatory costs are over 84 00:05:21,399 --> 00:05:24,160 fifty percent of corporate pre tax profit. So it's a 85 00:05:24,199 --> 00:05:26,720 huge amount of money. So putting this kind of in 86 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,519 the framework of what Biden did, well, what Trump tried 87 00:05:31,519 --> 00:05:33,800 to do the first time, and what Biden did a 88 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,399 few years back. We were taking an interest in executive overreach, 89 00:05:37,439 --> 00:05:39,399 which is a big, big concern of yours. And you 90 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,439 might remember Obama would say, I've got a pen, I've 91 00:05:42,439 --> 00:05:44,879 got a phone. If Congress doesn't act, I'm going to 92 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:50,120 We're going to act without Congress. Oh yeah, yeahs change Obamacare. 93 00:05:50,759 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: Elections have consequences. Whatever happened to the Democrats on that run, right. 94 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, they sure knew, and at that time, very much 95 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,360 contrast to now. I was, in fact, it was doing 96 00:06:00,639 --> 00:06:07,279 a piece on this yesterday. The progressives are attacking Trump 97 00:06:07,439 --> 00:06:11,720 over abuses of executive power. There's some areas where that's valid. 98 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,240 There's somewhere, I think where what Trump is trying to 99 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:19,279 do is reduce governmental power as such. And each of 100 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,439 his executive orders does have a disclaimer this applies to 101 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,879 the extent valid by law, and he's not being authoritarian 102 00:06:26,879 --> 00:06:29,920 in that respect. But Obama seemed to be. He's got 103 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,279 that pen and phone, and he expanded the federal state. 104 00:06:33,399 --> 00:06:37,839 He changed Obama Care's application to small business without you know, 105 00:06:37,879 --> 00:06:43,639 with a press release, and his Department of Labor would 106 00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:48,600 change the way that franchisees and independent contractors work. No law, 107 00:06:48,879 --> 00:06:54,240 no notice in common rule, just a executive and administrative interpretation. 108 00:06:54,319 --> 00:06:56,639 That's what those were called. So at that time, Matt 109 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,600 I started thinking, well, every year you've got about you've 110 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,639 got a few dozen laws from Congress. But at the 111 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,639 same time, you've got three thousand rules and regulations, and 112 00:07:07,879 --> 00:07:11,560 I tabulate, I joke and call this the unconstitutionality index. 113 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,639 In ten thousand commandments, you've got this multiple of nineteen 114 00:07:15,199 --> 00:07:18,519 laws nineteen regulations for every law, at least in terms 115 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,399 of pace. But more than that, Matt and Obama is 116 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:24,079 what really brought this to the four for me, and 117 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,800 by extension, now Joe Biden and now the potential Trump reversals. 118 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:36,920 But Obama was doing it notices, circulars, bulletins, guidance documents, interpretations, 119 00:07:37,319 --> 00:07:40,759 policy statements, and I took to calling this stuff regulatory 120 00:07:40,839 --> 00:07:44,360 dark matter, and we tried to do anory of it, 121 00:07:44,399 --> 00:07:46,680 because if you've got a few dozen laws, three thousand 122 00:07:46,759 --> 00:07:50,279 rules and regulations, you've got a lot more regulatory dark matter. 123 00:07:50,639 --> 00:07:53,759 That's the big challenge. I would say for folks like 124 00:07:53,839 --> 00:07:57,800 you who are interested in challenging the administrative state, the 125 00:07:57,839 --> 00:08:00,480 big problem you've got on your hands now is even 126 00:08:00,519 --> 00:08:03,800 if we crack down on notice and comment regulation, as 127 00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:06,160 Trump is doing, I think he's doing some good things 128 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,800 in that respect, but so much of the regulatory state 129 00:08:10,079 --> 00:08:14,639 is now laundered through regulatory dark matter. And of that 130 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,079 seven trillion that I mentioned to you, that is federal spending, 131 00:08:19,279 --> 00:08:24,560 hundreds of billions of that is contracts, grants, grants, in aids, subsidies, procurement. 132 00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:27,800 Federal government even under Trump, boast of being the largest 133 00:08:27,839 --> 00:08:30,759 purchaser of goods and services on planet Earth. So you 134 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,200 can have a lot of regulation get laundered in So 135 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,440 if I had I would say, you know, I've been 136 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:36,840 doing this report a long time to say, if I 137 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,399 get one thing across to you in this is that 138 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,399 there's now a fusion of spending and regulation that the 139 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,440 liberty movement has to grapple with. That I don't think 140 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,519 it is quite done. But in terms of trying to 141 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,679 fix it, first, Trump administration the guideline, the kind of 142 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,120 the pedaltone. There was one end two out for regulations, right, 143 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:02,600 and that was base a cost freeze. And he also 144 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,240 within each of the departments and agencies he put in 145 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:10,879 place so called regulatory reform officers. Biden came in swept 146 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,320 all that aside on day one. He literally had a 147 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,720 memoranda on day one called modernizing Regulatory Review, by which 148 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:22,720 he meant not reviewing regulation. But he wiped out all 149 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:26,159 of the Trump streamlining agenda when he did that, and 150 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,399 he replaced it with what they called And you can 151 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,200 go back and find these these these these statements and 152 00:09:32,279 --> 00:09:36,519 fact sheets and press releases from the Biden administration. But 153 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,279 he was pursuing, as I mentioned, those whole of government 154 00:09:39,759 --> 00:09:46,039 campaigns on equity and climate and justice and net zero 155 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:49,480 and the care economy and long COVID, all of these 156 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,759 areas where there was a whole of government approach such 157 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,159 that you know, we would normally think, well, you block 158 00:09:56,399 --> 00:10:00,440 environmental regulation at DEEPA or you labor. He he was. 159 00:10:00,919 --> 00:10:07,919 He charged every agency with equity plans, justice plans, climate plans, 160 00:10:08,279 --> 00:10:12,759 even pulled the so called the alleged independent agencies financial 161 00:10:12,759 --> 00:10:17,120 agencies like the SEC, the Consumer Financial Production Bureau into 162 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,399 these gargantuan environmental concerns. It was a huge shift such 163 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,919 that if you get rid of one agency and its 164 00:10:25,279 --> 00:10:29,879 authority on that progressive conceit doesn't change anything. It all 165 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,720 just gets picked up by some other agency. So in 166 00:10:32,879 --> 00:10:37,200 prior editions of ten thousand commandments before this one, I 167 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,840 spent a good deal of time cataloging Biden's wholesale replacement 168 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,240 of the Trump streamlining, which was a very very interesting era. 169 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,080 So that Biden has had deleted all of that. Trump 170 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,039 has come back in and so far has done one 171 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,759 hundred and forty two executive orders. And I was looking 172 00:10:55,759 --> 00:10:58,759 the other day, I was wondering how many were regulatory. 173 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,039 As I was saying about now the fusion of spending 174 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,799 and regulation, all of them are regulatory. But of the 175 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,039 one hundred and forty two executive orders there there were 176 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:14,080 over a dozen that were addressing regulation, and of those 177 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:19,759 about about six that directly invoke the Department of Government Efficiency. 178 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,600 The DOGE that Elon Musk heads up and that Vieback 179 00:11:23,639 --> 00:11:27,000 Ramaswami used to be the co head of. And the 180 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,200 interesting thing about DOGE and this was just we're just 181 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,639 compiling this yesterday. You know that you got folks on 182 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,240 our side, you know, fighting about DOGE. Oh, this is 183 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,799 this is Bologne. Ah, this is going to do great things. 184 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,519 DOGE was set up to go away in a year. 185 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,320 It has to go away next year at America two fifty. 186 00:11:43,399 --> 00:11:46,440 That's the charter that it has. It's the renamed US 187 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,919 Digital Service. And I was looking at comparing it to 188 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,159 comparing its reductions of workforce to what had been done 189 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,399 by Don Devine and his great book. In fact, I 190 00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:03,279 had it right here, Reagan's Terrible Swift Sword by Don Devine, 191 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:06,840 who was Reagan's Officer Personnel Management Director, and DOGE is 192 00:12:06,919 --> 00:12:12,120 kind of like the Swift but not so terrible Sword. 193 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,080 They've put together some great things in terms of reductions 194 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,639 of the federal state. Musk might have promised two trillion 195 00:12:19,159 --> 00:12:22,600 back in October. We didn't get that, but we have 196 00:12:22,639 --> 00:12:25,120 gotten around one hundred and fifty billion in reductions that 197 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:26,879 has claimed, oh, we. 198 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: Need to be on that road. I mean, that's the 199 00:12:29,399 --> 00:12:32,840 bottom line here that we're talking about. And I guess 200 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,200 with all of this and what you have been reporting 201 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,960 on for a long time, you know better than anybody 202 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,559 that the roots of the problem run very deep and 203 00:12:42,639 --> 00:12:47,279 they're decades old. The Supreme Court has taken care of 204 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,919 some of this really opened the door to the end 205 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,639 of what had been long referred to and long drawn 206 00:12:54,679 --> 00:13:00,120 out as the deferential state of things, deference deference to 207 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:06,600 these bureaucracies. In bureaucrats, you talk about Congress abdicating its 208 00:13:07,879 --> 00:13:14,919 responsibilities under the Constitution, under the first branch responsibilities, that's 209 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,480 for sure, and that was assisted through you know, the 210 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:24,360 old Chevron case and all of these other cases that said, well, 211 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,799 let the let the experts, because they know this subject 212 00:13:29,799 --> 00:13:32,279 matter better than anybody, We're going to defer to them. 213 00:13:32,919 --> 00:13:36,639 And that's exactly what happened under Obama in particular, all 214 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,440 of the experts, and remember these same experts were the 215 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,799 ones who were telling us to follow the science and 216 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:47,759 violating every principle of science during COVID. So how do 217 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,879 we get to I know, as I mentioned the Supreme 218 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,320 Court decision. A couple of decisions have straightened that out 219 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,840 a bit. But how do we get to the point 220 00:13:57,879 --> 00:14:01,120 where we're not we're no longer longer deferring to the 221 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:05,039 bureaucracy and giving the bureaucracy outsized power that has taken 222 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,279 place over decades in this country. 223 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 2: Well, boy, I'm I'm glad you brought that up. The 224 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,919 Chevron deference had been the notion, you know, it started 225 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,000 back in the eighties, the notion that, well, the agencies 226 00:14:16,039 --> 00:14:19,279 are the experts, so they've got the knowledge that Congress 227 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,320 doesn't have. And in fact, that's why Congress delegated the 228 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,399 power to the agency in the first place, because it 229 00:14:24,519 --> 00:14:30,120 wanted these independent, rational, apolitical experts to make the decision. 230 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:35,279 And this goes back to early progressive era. Conceits is 231 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,840 what I often call them. And you know, to put 232 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,879 this in perspective too, our founder Fred Smith said, the 233 00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:46,519 genius of those progressives was any when they got into power, 234 00:14:46,679 --> 00:14:52,080 anything that was under government control, airsheds, watersheds, spectrum, especially 235 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,440 air spaces, anything that was in government hands that remained 236 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,320 there so they were able to latch on and claim 237 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,480 to be the expert allocations allocators of these resources and 238 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:07,080 claim that expertise. But I would say, here's what I 239 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,039 would say, you have to be careful about you know. 240 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,159 I put it this way. You can't just think up 241 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,720 a value and then name an agency after it and 242 00:15:14,759 --> 00:15:19,279 think you're regulating and doing it, doing expert regulation because 243 00:15:19,399 --> 00:15:24,080 often I think agency interventions and their silos, you know, 244 00:15:24,279 --> 00:15:29,360 the you know the labor environment, UH, transportation, you know 245 00:15:29,399 --> 00:15:34,440 their air space, energy, telecom. Regulating all of these entities 246 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:39,159 in the silos like we do often removes them from 247 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:45,120 the competitive marketplace and the competitive disciplines and from real expertise. Ideally, 248 00:15:45,759 --> 00:15:49,279 even if agencies did have the experts, the expertise that 249 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,600 progresses and and you got to you got to acknowledge too. 250 00:15:52,759 --> 00:15:56,759 Even John Roberts in the Chevron decision talked about agency expertise. 251 00:15:56,799 --> 00:15:59,639 He said, you know where there's agency expertise that needs 252 00:15:59,639 --> 00:16:01,679 to come in to play. But we're not just going 253 00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:05,519 to let agencies interpret their own statutes. Even in the 254 00:16:05,639 --> 00:16:09,320 legal environment, even in the judiciary, there's still this notion 255 00:16:09,559 --> 00:16:12,480 that expertise is what agencies do. I think it's important 256 00:16:12,799 --> 00:16:14,879 for our liberty movement in the same way I was 257 00:16:14,879 --> 00:16:17,039 saying the big theme earlier is the fusion of spending 258 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,639 and regulation. I also have to challenge the notion that 259 00:16:20,679 --> 00:16:23,919 the agencies are experts, because I mean, just just as 260 00:16:23,919 --> 00:16:28,879 a for example, drones a new technology that came that 261 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,840 came upon the scene a few years back. Almost immediately 262 00:16:32,879 --> 00:16:36,840 you had the FAA putting out four hundred page rules 263 00:16:37,399 --> 00:16:41,399 governing drones, a brand new technology, and rather than taking 264 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:46,120 advantage of the new expertise in terms of geolocation and 265 00:16:46,159 --> 00:16:49,000 so forth, I would joke that with the ability to 266 00:16:49,679 --> 00:16:53,159 for geolocation and GPS and tracking, you could pack the 267 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,440 sky like a neutron star with drone quarters and property rights. 268 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,120 I'm really getting at property rights and you know, flying 269 00:16:59,159 --> 00:17:03,799 over homes and may generating new rules for this new environment. Instead, 270 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:08,559 what the FAA does takes the entire drone industry, dumps 271 00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:13,319 it into eighty year old airspace mechanisms that it governs, 272 00:17:13,519 --> 00:17:17,200 and then it governs everything pilot certification, airworthiness, how high 273 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,240 your package has got to be before Amazon drops it off. 274 00:17:20,279 --> 00:17:23,440 When we get to drone deliveries and things like that. That's 275 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,680 just one example that you know, flying taxis where the 276 00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:30,519 expertise really comes from. In terms of energy conservation is 277 00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:33,279 another one. If you've bought a gas can lately at 278 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:36,559 home depot or Walmart, it's got all these springs on it. 279 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,400 You gotta have you gotta have three hands to operate it. 280 00:17:39,559 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: Yes, I hate those. Can we stop that? I mean, 281 00:17:41,799 --> 00:17:44,519 if we can do one thing and ending regulation, can 282 00:17:44,559 --> 00:17:46,119 we do that? My son and I were trying to 283 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:47,799 cut the lawn the other day. We couldn't get the 284 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,680 damn thing open. And I think so many Americans are 285 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,359 feeling the same frustration. But that is I think you 286 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,200 said it right there. That's a that's a great example 287 00:17:57,799 --> 00:18:01,880 of the not just the over thing, yeah, but how 288 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:07,559 much control these bureaucrats have over the average American. And 289 00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:11,359 the sick punchline to the joke is, as you note 290 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:16,759 here in your study, we are paying for that obsessive, 291 00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:23,680 compulsive behavior on the part of the regulators. And once 292 00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:27,400 they get their foot in the door, as it is 293 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,799 with all of these spending programs that we talk about 294 00:18:31,079 --> 00:18:35,039 during the pandemic era that remain in place, that level 295 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:40,400 of spending remains in place, it is almost impossible, it seems, 296 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,000 to get rid of it. So how do we get 297 00:18:43,079 --> 00:18:46,400 rid of it? These things that are impacting the everyday American. 298 00:18:46,799 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 2: I wish I had this little It was an upside 299 00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:54,640 down funnel of the Capitol Dome. Showed the easy stuff 300 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,119 that we can do, Matt versus the stuff that's harder. 301 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,359 And it's Congress is over delegation. That's the problem here. 302 00:19:02,799 --> 00:19:07,440 But I would submit also that it's Congress's own disregard 303 00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:10,519 of enumerated powers that we've got to grapple with as well. 304 00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:13,400 Because you've brought up COVID a couple of times, and 305 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,200 I was doing a c SPAN interview the other day 306 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,119 and I mentioned what had struck me about that time 307 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,319 of COVID. And I've mentioned to you, as you said, 308 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,400 you know, the spending rockets up and then it stays 309 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,920 at that level. Well, now we have a two trillion 310 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,240 dollar deficit. Well, the first time that happened was during COVID. 311 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,319 And I was mentioning to the host that I remember 312 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:39,720 the signing of the CARES Act, the Coronavirus Response Act, 313 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,759 and Trump was signing it and he looks up at 314 00:19:42,759 --> 00:19:44,839 Mitch McConnell and says, Mitch, this has got a t 315 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:47,200 on it. I've never signed anything this big. I'm not 316 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,279 sure I can sign this thing and we can't turn 317 00:19:50,319 --> 00:19:53,039 back now, though, can we? And everybody nervously laughs in 318 00:19:53,079 --> 00:19:56,240 the Oval Office as they're signing the CARES Act. But 319 00:19:56,279 --> 00:19:58,640 then look what that led to. That led to It 320 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,640 had provisions in it like the viction moratory, and we 321 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,160 talk about Biden extending those kind of things, but Trump 322 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,759 did too. And you know, all of these interventions that 323 00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:10,359 COVID set in place quickly, it was followed up on. 324 00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:13,240 They often say there's gridlock in Congress. I'm here to 325 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,720 tell you there hasn't been any gridlock since COVID because 326 00:20:15,759 --> 00:20:20,680 after that, then the American Rescue Plan came through, more spending, 327 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,000 then the Inflation Law, the Infrastructure Law, the Chips and 328 00:20:25,079 --> 00:20:30,480 Science Act, So these gargantuan pieces of legislation that I 329 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:33,200 try to get across every chance I get, they were 330 00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:37,839 already hyper regulatory before the administrators start writing the first 331 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,079 the first rule. So here I'm in this pickle. I've 332 00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:45,279 been spending my career talking about over delegation and agencies 333 00:20:45,279 --> 00:20:47,720 issuing too many rules, you know, three thousand a year, 334 00:20:47,759 --> 00:20:51,680 and it all stacks up with no release. And later 335 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,039 we can talk about some solutions too. Because I'm not 336 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,519 a pessimist. I think there's some optimistic solutions, but you know, 337 00:20:58,079 --> 00:21:01,960 you have these kinds of interventions. But Congress has got 338 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,319 to grapple with the fact and I think the Trump 339 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,160 administration and I think Doge too. Doge could lead at 340 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,160 least in terms of the public relations campaign. But you 341 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,480 talked about agency expertise. Congress has delegated that power and 342 00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:19,519 created enabling statutes with these these regulators all across the 343 00:21:19,519 --> 00:21:23,799 board in the economy. And it's only the only way 344 00:21:23,799 --> 00:21:25,759 we can get rid of all of the rule writing 345 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,359 is actually the step back and get rid of the 346 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,039 agencies and get rid of the enabling statues that created them. 347 00:21:32,519 --> 00:21:34,920 And the only ones we're hearing up so far are 348 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,400 Department of Education. You know, that's that's one where you know, 349 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,680 the new administrator said, you know, just like Alfred Kahan 350 00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:44,839 back in the days of the Civil Aeronautics Board, you know, 351 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,759 my job will be done here. There's no job when 352 00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:50,079 I leave it to leave the Department of Education. But 353 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,160 got to be very careful because like during the first 354 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,359 Trump administration, he had a reformatting of the executive branch project. 355 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,440 Mick Mulvaney headed it. At the end of that year 356 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,200 long project didn't eliminate any agencies. It just took some 357 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,400 of the Department of Labor programs and put them over 358 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,359 at the Department of Education. Or it could have been 359 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,359 the other way around, but it was one or the other. 360 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,240 And the point is no ending of the agencies. And 361 00:22:14,319 --> 00:22:17,400 dogs can't do it all by itself. Dogs can help 362 00:22:17,519 --> 00:22:20,599 shrink or deflate agencies, and they you know, sound like 363 00:22:20,599 --> 00:22:22,680 a like a whoope cushion and they make the same 364 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,839 sound as you've been able to tell for the last 365 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:31,559 two months. Oags can deflate things, but you know, like 366 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,079 fat cells, it's still there. And if you get another 367 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,440 progressive administration in, they can expand. Now it is the 368 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:42,400 case that, for example, with the UH some of the 369 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,759 agencies that have been rolled out and put under the 370 00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:50,839 Department of State under Rubio, there is some cutting going 371 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,279 on and there is some trimming of jobs as you know, 372 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,559 as Divine had done back in the Reagan administration. There 373 00:22:57,599 --> 00:23:01,839 are cuts in that respect, but still has delegated these 374 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,680 powers to agencies or has created these bodies. And we 375 00:23:05,799 --> 00:23:09,440 have to think about what regulation means because you know, 376 00:23:09,519 --> 00:23:14,240 we're we're small old libertarian free market types and I 377 00:23:14,279 --> 00:23:17,599 would when they say, well, what you don't want any regulation, wan, 378 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,640 I'm like, well, no, you you want regulation. But your 379 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,359 question is always is it going to be this political 380 00:23:24,039 --> 00:23:28,240 regulation from agencies or do we want better competitive disciplines? 381 00:23:28,279 --> 00:23:31,039 And I always favor the latter because I'd mentioned this 382 00:23:31,039 --> 00:23:33,759 the other day. You have a company, but it's got 383 00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:41,000 upstream suppliers, downstream business customers, consumers, Wall Street, the media, advertisers. 384 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:44,400 All of these forces are raided against companies that misbehave. 385 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,799 But on the regulatory side, they just say, you know, 386 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,319 set a floor. I always joke, you know, all tainted 387 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,640 meat and was approved by the USDA. I think it's 388 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,559 much better to have to elevate those competitive disciplines. And 389 00:23:56,599 --> 00:23:59,640 it's especially important now into in new technologies like you know, 390 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:06,319 three printing, AI, cryptocurrency. We have to develop. The job 391 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,480 of the free market isn't just to create the new 392 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,880 product or service, but also to develop the disciplines and 393 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,799 the risk management institutions that go along, you know, everything 394 00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:21,519 from warranties and contracts and so forth, to protect the public. 395 00:24:21,799 --> 00:24:24,680 And I don't think you can replace that kind of 396 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,000 that kind of discipline and that kind of regulation with 397 00:24:28,319 --> 00:24:29,759 just by creating an agency. 398 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 3: It turns out in Congress we have a uniparty. The 399 00:24:36,759 --> 00:24:39,680 Watched at on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every 400 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,440 day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the 401 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,400 economy and how it affects your wallet. Another week goes 402 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,759 by and no votes on doche cuts nothing on getting 403 00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:51,920 rid of waste, fraud and abuse. Everything you see on 404 00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:55,519 TV by some of these lawmakers is just the reality show. 405 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,680 Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, 406 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,240 it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watched 407 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,240 Out on Wall Street podcast with christ mccowski on Apple, Spotify, 408 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:04,759 or wherever you get your podcasts. 409 00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: I think you raised I think you raise a very 410 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,839 good point. I think it's also what we have seen 411 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,400 over the last several years in this country is the 412 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:20,039 government working alongside some entities in the private sector, and 413 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:26,039 the private sector being compliant with the administration, with the 414 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:32,480 regime in power to censor Americans, a sensor speech to 415 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,079 you know, do things that harm the individual rights of 416 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,799 Americans where you have so, Yes, regulation is still very important. 417 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,519 I don't want to get away from that, but I 418 00:25:44,519 --> 00:25:46,640 think we're at the core What we're really trying to 419 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,599 get at is the absolute over regulation in the lives 420 00:25:50,599 --> 00:25:54,359 of average Americans. And I want to talk in specifics 421 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,759 about what we're seeing, what your your report finds here 422 00:25:58,839 --> 00:26:02,799 when we're talking about two trillion dollars or so that's 423 00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:07,119 costing the average American, I believe somewhere in the vicinity 424 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,319 of sixteen thousand dollars a year in overregulation. Our guest 425 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,000 today is Clyde Wayne Cruz of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, 426 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,000 on his latest report, ten thousand Commandments the cost Burden 427 00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:26,720 of federal regulations. You mentioned it's everywhere energy, consumer appliances 428 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:29,720 that grabbed a lot of headlines continues to this day. 429 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,880 You know, vehicles that we drive, the climate change cult 430 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:40,599 that is out there, labor, banking, online speech, other sectors 431 00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:42,799 of the economy. What are some of the more egregious 432 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,400 abuses of overregulation in this country? 433 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think to me some of the you know, 434 00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:52,440 I mentioned kind of the jokey example of the gas can, 435 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,440 but it's not really joke because if they can't get 436 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,400 something that simple correct, it's hard to get hard to 437 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,000 imagine they're getting getting other things correct. Course of trying 438 00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:04,160 to get rid of the of fossil fuel use and 439 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,000 automobiles and shift everybody toward toward electric cars. It's one 440 00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:10,720 of the tremendous ones. And you can see what's really 441 00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:14,119 on some legislator's mind, at least in terms of what 442 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,160 they are getting rid of from the Biden administration. I 443 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,519 had put together a chart of all the major rules 444 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:22,839 under Biden, and they shot way up under him, and 445 00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:26,440 it's largely energy and environment and so forth like that. 446 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:30,720 But under the new Trump administration, they're able to use 447 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:34,279 what's called the Congressional Review Act passed in the late 448 00:27:35,839 --> 00:27:39,200 late in the last century. Up until Trump, it had 449 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,640 only gotten the Congression Review Act had only repealed one rule, 450 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,039 and that was on repetitive motion injuries. And under the 451 00:27:47,079 --> 00:27:51,079 first Trump administration several more were repealed, and so now 452 00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:53,480 they've been about twenty. But we're talking about out of 453 00:27:53,519 --> 00:27:56,319 over three thousand rules and regulations that come through, but 454 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,319 recent ones that were repealed. There was there was a 455 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:03,359 methane flow rule, methane fee rule, some of the tailpipe 456 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,440 admission rules that were just overturned in the new administration 457 00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:11,400 by sign a resolution by both houses of Congress and 458 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,839 then signed by Trump and the tailpipe rules and so forth. 459 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,599 And some of the most annoying ones have been the 460 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:25,160 energy conservation rules for dishwashers and appliances and washing machines, 461 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,599 you know, the front loading washing machines that mold up 462 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,920 and don't clean. All of those have been have been 463 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,880 a real headache for the public, and there have been 464 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,559 some rollbacks on those in the new administration too. But 465 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:40,880 you know, it's in some ways that things are frustrating 466 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,839 because it is the case that of Biden's many major 467 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,839 rules last year and significant rules and regulations, it's you know, 468 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,799 dozens of them were potentially able to be overturned, but 469 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,799 you end up with just a few. And so that's 470 00:28:54,839 --> 00:28:57,759 one of the reasons I say, you you know, in 471 00:28:57,839 --> 00:29:02,759 terms of restoring liberty, restoring normal normalcy and government governance 472 00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:08,799 and Article I authorities for Congress, while Congress also adheres 473 00:29:08,839 --> 00:29:11,119 to its own enumerated powers and doesn't do all the 474 00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:14,119 things that's been doing since COVID, but you know, restricting 475 00:29:14,119 --> 00:29:17,119 the power of government as such matters a lot and 476 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,880 a lot of that has to recognize that, you know, 477 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,279 most of our wealth isn't created yet, most of our 478 00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:25,599 jobs aren't created yet, most of our industries aren't created yet, 479 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,000 and we don't want to have this pre existing administrative 480 00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:31,880 state with all of these alphabet soup bodies in place 481 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,480 to capture or to pre capture all of these new 482 00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:39,119 sectors before they come into being. We don't have to 483 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,319 regulate in the future the way we've done in the past, 484 00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:43,000 and we can actually do it a lot better, as 485 00:29:43,319 --> 00:29:46,160 as I mentioned earlier, with the right kinds of discipline. 486 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,599 So I wish we could get across Matt to the 487 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,759 to the members of Congress. They just can't poke around with, 488 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,119 you know, reviewing rules a little better or saying they're 489 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,440 going to do cost benefit They've really got to go 490 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,920 after these administrative agencies as such and dismantle them. 491 00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: Well, whatever happened to the Rains Act? 492 00:30:06,079 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 2: Oh, oh, you know what. I'm glad you brought that up, 493 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,599 because there's like a there's a series of regulatory reforms 494 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,319 right that are useful, you know, just better report cards, 495 00:30:14,359 --> 00:30:19,720 better cost benefit analysis, regulatory reduction commission, sunsetting, all sorts 496 00:30:19,759 --> 00:30:22,839 of things like that. The Rains Act, which stands for 497 00:30:23,039 --> 00:30:27,000 regulations from the Executive in need of scrutiny, would have 498 00:30:27,599 --> 00:30:31,160 would require or allow Congress when there's a major rule 499 00:30:31,319 --> 00:30:33,759 coming through that in order for that major rule to 500 00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:38,680 become effective, Congress would have to approve it, okay. So 501 00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:41,160 in other words, if an agency issue is a rule, 502 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,319 Congress doesn't approve it, nothing happens. The rule doesn't go 503 00:30:44,319 --> 00:30:47,240 into effect as it is now under the Congressional Review 504 00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:49,519 Act that I'd mentioned a little bit ago, where they're 505 00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:53,400 just barely over twenty rules have been stopped under the 506 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,960 Congressional Review Act, and agency issue is a major rule, 507 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,519 Congress has got to get upon its hind legs and 508 00:30:58,599 --> 00:31:00,759 you know, do a resolution of disapproval in order to 509 00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:02,960 get rid of that rule. And of course that doesn't 510 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,119 happen very much. So that's why the Rains Act. It 511 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,880 actually had a better name back in the late nineties, 512 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,079 and it's passed the House a few times, never passed 513 00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:14,559 the Senate. The original name was the Congressional Responsibility Act, 514 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,599 which gets to what you and I are talking about 515 00:31:16,799 --> 00:31:19,880 about Article onepower in this and it really being Congress's 516 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,240 job to make the laws and to be responsible for them. 517 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: Now, why why do they get rid of that name? 518 00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: Pray tell you know, I don't know. It went through 519 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,079 It went through a few phases. But way back then 520 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,240 it was JD. Hayworth in the Congress, Arizona Congressman who 521 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,519 who it intridues it. I remember back in the day, 522 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,920 you know, participating in a press conference supporting it. And 523 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,680 over time it went through a few iterations. It would 524 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,839 get different co sponsors and so forth, and now kat 525 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,440 Hamick in the House, Ran Paul and the Senate are 526 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,160 the sponsors of it. And it just so happens there's 527 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,720 a version of the Rains Act, which you know, as 528 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,839 we say major rules, Congress have to approve them otherwise 529 00:31:58,839 --> 00:32:00,880 they're noel and void. But there's a version of the 530 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,440 Rains Act that's now being invoked in the in the 531 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,960 debates now over the budget reconciliation, you know, the h 532 00:32:08,039 --> 00:32:11,400 this budget where we're spending seven trillion. Well in terms 533 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,640 of finalizing the budget, you know, for the for the 534 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,759 current fiscal year, there's there's an opportunity to do a 535 00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:22,640 reconciliation which can't be filibustered. There's an effort underway and 536 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,079 it has kind of behind the scenes, has been working 537 00:32:25,079 --> 00:32:29,440 with the Senate also to get a portion, not not 538 00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:32,400 the entire Rains Act, but elements of the Rains Act 539 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,279 into the Budget Reconciliation and there's been a markup of 540 00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:39,359 that in the House Judiciary. Other committees are doing their 541 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,119 markups as well, so we'll see what they finally get 542 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,640 together and what goes to the Senate. But I say 543 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:45,400 it facetiously. 544 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: Of course, I'm yes with full timegras shake whatever happened 545 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:54,920 to the Congressional Responsibility Act, because as we have noted, clearly, 546 00:32:55,279 --> 00:32:59,000 Congress does not want to take responsibility. And I hate 547 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,480 to hammer on that, but I think it's so necessary. 548 00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:07,440 That's when you're talking about recommendations on how to carve 549 00:33:07,519 --> 00:33:11,559 up this two trillion dollars that we're talking about in 550 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,519 over regulation, and that could be a conservative estimate. As 551 00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:19,799 you noted, the only way that you're truly going to 552 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,799 start doing that is to get Congress to do its job. 553 00:33:24,599 --> 00:33:25,440 Rain's Act is. 554 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 2: Part of that. 555 00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: But how do we ultimately get there to the benefit 556 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:31,880 of the American people. 557 00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:37,079 Speaker 2: I think it'll have to be There is a chance 558 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,519 that the Rains Act could make it through the sentiment 559 00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:45,200 Senate Parliamentarian. I'm skeptical. I think that budget rules might 560 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,240 prevent it. I hope that it will, because if Wayne 561 00:33:48,279 --> 00:33:52,680 is the parliamentarian. Then I say that any thing that 562 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,960 any regulatory policy affects the federal budget in terms of outlays. 563 00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: Are you suggesting are you suggesting the United States of Wayne? 564 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: Perhaps? Yeah, you know, all these authoritarians running around like 565 00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:11,400 we but yeah, so what the problem is there is 566 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,920 a there's a call for saying that, well, if we, 567 00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:17,400 if we, if we try to get the Rains Act 568 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,480 into the budget reconciliation, it's got to meet budget rules. 569 00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:23,760 And in order for it to meet budget rules, regulations 570 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:29,039 have to directly affect the federal budget. So that is 571 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:34,360 said to not apply to regulations. So so generally items 572 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,840 like Rains and others have not gone through on budget 573 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,280 reconciliations before. They're trying to make the case now that 574 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,639 it can. Now I would say, you know, when I 575 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,559 was making that joke about you know the Wayne is parliamentarian, 576 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,199 regulatory costs are such a big factor in the economy 577 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:55,320 that any change in regulatory policy that alters business profitability 578 00:34:55,519 --> 00:35:00,639 and economic growth and productivity automatically affects federal revenues. But 579 00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:03,480 that's considered I think that's direct, but that's considered an 580 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,320 indirect effect. So in order to get through the Parliamentarian. 581 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,400 There's going to have to be a ruling that the 582 00:35:10,519 --> 00:35:13,840 Rains Act in the provisions it has with respect to 583 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:19,000 regulations that raise government revenue are relevant and direct effects 584 00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:21,199 on the budget. So it's not clear that we get through. 585 00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:24,159 There might be other kinds of regulatory reforms, like say 586 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,679 regulatory cost budgeting, some limited version of that that could 587 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,519 get through on reconciliation, but it's going to be a 588 00:35:30,559 --> 00:35:37,320 heated battle. Interestingly enough, when the reconciliation was marked up 589 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,159 in the Judiciary Committee the other day, there wasn't a 590 00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:42,519 whole lot of debate about this RAINS provisions. I think 591 00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:45,639 there's just expectation that barriers will be thrown up in 592 00:35:45,679 --> 00:35:48,679 the Senate. But interestingly enough, there were provisions in there 593 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,719 on sunsetting of rules that seem to have made it through. 594 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,079 And also, you know, we talk about this aggregate estimate. 595 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,400 I say two trillion, NAM says three trillion. I think 596 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,079 it's even a lot more than that. But you know, 597 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,480 there is a provision in the new Judiciary markup that 598 00:36:06,519 --> 00:36:11,519 would require the GOEO, the Government Accountability Office, to perform 599 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,639 an aggregate estimate of regulatory costs. At long last, it's 600 00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:19,440 already supposed to be done because owing to the Regulatory 601 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,760 Right to Know Act from in the late nineties. But 602 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,039 it's not done. You know how that works. They just 603 00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:28,800 ignore the law. But interestingly enough, there is a provision 604 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,320 for GOEO or do it. And I would love for 605 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:31,880 somebody to come along and do that. I could quit 606 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,079 writing this report every year. 607 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, yourself put yourself out of work right, as 608 00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:41,000 we talked about before. But that's an important point here 609 00:36:41,039 --> 00:36:44,199 that we haven't discussed, and that is there are a 610 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,280 lot of people, a lot of lobbyists in particular, making 611 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,679 a lot of money out of the current system, out 612 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:56,079 of the changes, the constant changes the rules. There are 613 00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:58,920 the lobbyists, the attorneys that are making money simply because 614 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,000 it takes an army of attorneys to be able to 615 00:37:01,119 --> 00:37:03,519 understand what the hell is going on out there, uh, 616 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,599 and how it's going to impact our annual business, our sales, 617 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,320 you know, distribution change, all of this sort of stuff. 618 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 2: Uh. 619 00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: There is money to be had from industries that you 620 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,159 know are going to make some money from from massive changes. 621 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,679 It always plays out. So with so much money at stake, 622 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,239 money is the driver for everything. How do you get 623 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:28,559 real reform. 624 00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:31,760 Speaker 2: You know, you you asked the same thing a little 625 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,599 bit indirectly with range. You know, how do you get 626 00:37:33,599 --> 00:37:36,599 it through. It's a real problem, and it might even 627 00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:40,199 be worse than you think, because when I when I 628 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,719 said that about spending and regulation and the fusion kind 629 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,320 of this grand unification of spending and regulation, there's also 630 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,400 a parallel fusion of business and government that you're kind 631 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,920 of getting at there. I was, I was joking. I 632 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,639 joke a lot of times now that you know, in 633 00:37:55,679 --> 00:37:58,480 the wake of COVID and all these the infrastructure law 634 00:37:58,519 --> 00:38:01,840 and the inflation law, and all this government money, federal 635 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,519 money being poured down to the states and localities and 636 00:38:05,559 --> 00:38:08,599 out to businesses that everything from local tap water to 637 00:38:08,639 --> 00:38:12,440 space commercialization as a business government partnership rather than free 638 00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:15,480 enterprise capitalism like I wanted to be. So it's extremely 639 00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:18,719 tough and even we'll put it this way, Matt, the 640 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,960 last time we had major regulatory reforms, like you're talking about, 641 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,039 what does it take to make this happen? Which is 642 00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:27,559 what I'm spending all my time on. The last time 643 00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:30,880 we had major reforms was the mid nineteen nineties and 644 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,239 a little later than that when we had the Small 645 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:38,079 Business Regulatory Relief Act, the Unfunded Mandates Act, the CRA, 646 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:40,400 the Congressional Review Act, we were just talking about the 647 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,719 Regulatory Right to Know Act that we just talked about. 648 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,199 All of those happened within just a few years of 649 00:38:45,199 --> 00:38:48,480 each other, and interestingly enough, it was under Clinton, a 650 00:38:48,519 --> 00:38:51,199 Democrat rather than a Republican. That's also when we did 651 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,920 welfare reform and had the last time we had a 652 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,639 budget surplus was under Clinton. But the difference back then 653 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,400 is you had state and local government and small businesses 654 00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:06,079 all coming to Washington complaining about red tape and urging 655 00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:09,079 for the cutting of burdens. And we don't quite have 656 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,159 that anymore. If you noticed it, I noticed this. It 657 00:39:13,559 --> 00:39:15,079 was a little bit shocking to me, and I ended 658 00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:17,239 up writing writing a piece in Forms about it. But 659 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,000 I was watching like the mayors coming to Washington and 660 00:39:21,039 --> 00:39:24,800 having Kamala Harris and Joe Biden appear at their conferences, 661 00:39:25,159 --> 00:39:27,960 and everything they were talking about is all of the 662 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,480 great things they were doing with all the federal money 663 00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:33,360 being poured down to them, you know, for retrofitting school 664 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,239 buses and buildings to make them energy efficient so called, 665 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:43,239 and expanding government programs and government environmental projects and so forth. 666 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,280 The federal government. The federal government is now so big 667 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,800 and spending so much that it's pouring money in to 668 00:39:52,599 --> 00:39:55,119 even unfortunately even a little bit under Trump, because they 669 00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:57,320 were just announcing how great it is that they're doing 670 00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,800 more small business loans than ever. I don't think that's 671 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,440 so great. I want healthy banks and healthy small businesses 672 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,119 to be doing the lending, not the lending being driven 673 00:40:06,159 --> 00:40:09,079 by the federal government. So we've got this problem that 674 00:40:10,119 --> 00:40:12,800 our founder Fred Smith called the government steering while the 675 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:17,639 market is just rowing. And that heavy spending that's also regulatory, 676 00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:20,679 is leading to too much of a fusion between business 677 00:40:20,679 --> 00:40:24,960 and government. And by extension, you know, you're the federalist. 678 00:40:25,119 --> 00:40:28,719 The big problem we have with federalism is not just 679 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,840 you know, the division you know among you know, the 680 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,239 federal type of government where you have you know, the 681 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,960 federal the state and localities doing their thing. The state 682 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,320 and local governments are now getting Even before COVID, they 683 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,480 were getting over seven hundred billion in grants in aid 684 00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:50,679 from the federal government for transportation, environment, labor, welfare. All 685 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,039 of these programs were being funded by the federal government 686 00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:56,920 rather than just leaving that money in the states in 687 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,840 the first place. And so if the federal government is 688 00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:02,599 running those programs, and this is this is all the 689 00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:05,760 backlash you see to Trump. Now the states and localities 690 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,559 are complaining about losing their federal money. Well, why are 691 00:41:08,599 --> 00:41:10,800 they getting federal money? Why isn't it just already in 692 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,159 the states. So when you have that kind of a 693 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,800 rather than federalism, you have this this this entanglement between 694 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,519 the states and local governments and the federal government makes 695 00:41:20,559 --> 00:41:24,079 it very hard to to wall things off and block things. 696 00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:27,159 So it's a real debate. It's not it's really a problem. 697 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,239 It's not like you know, a generation ago when the 698 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,239 state and local government was complaining about Washington. Now they 699 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,719 want they just want more to run these programs. And 700 00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:39,800 you know, if we if the election goes another way 701 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,079 in a couple of years and you get progressives back 702 00:41:42,119 --> 00:41:45,079 in power, this bigots just opened back up. That's why 703 00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:46,760 I would say one thing I wish too, you know, 704 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,719 in terms of your your concerned about how do we 705 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,599 make this happen. When Trump is talking about small business 706 00:41:52,639 --> 00:41:56,679 loans and increasing those and when he's talking about you know, uh, 707 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,480 the you know, the education programs and the states and 708 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,320 localities doing what the federal government says in order to 709 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,679 get their money. I wish that there were a project 710 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:12,039 in the White House to say, rather than tweak these 711 00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:14,440 programs so that you're doing a little bit better in 712 00:42:14,519 --> 00:42:19,599 terms of managing them. Instead, instead we get a retrenchment. 713 00:42:19,679 --> 00:42:24,039 We reposition all of these social functions and economic functions 714 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,599 back in the states where they belong. Instead, we're expecting 715 00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:29,519 the federal government to do it all. So that that's 716 00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:31,239 kind of what I mean about the you know, the 717 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,639 fusion of spending and regulation, and it's not just affecting 718 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,559 business and consumers, but it's incorporating and embedding, you know, 719 00:42:38,639 --> 00:42:41,760 the federal government into everything that states and localities do. 720 00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:45,840 And so the constituency that you would have for deregulation 721 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,079 and cutting spending is bought off in a way. 722 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,800 Speaker 1: That is well, the ultimate problem is, to put it 723 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,440 in the parlance of Rambo a long time ago, we 724 00:42:56,519 --> 00:43:00,960 are on a drunken boat driven by and we had 725 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:06,119 the previous four years been driven by a drunken steerer. 726 00:43:07,119 --> 00:43:10,159 You talk about the steering of that boat. That's I mean, 727 00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:14,280 we're in the left in this country has pushed so 728 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:20,440 many programs, and it truly is driving and has driven 729 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,320 through our tax payer dollars, a system where the federal 730 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,519 government will take care of you or that's their idea 731 00:43:28,599 --> 00:43:32,880 from cradle to grave. That they like to talk about sustainability, 732 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,960 that is not sustainable. So some of these changes, and 733 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,880 really I think some very significant and good changes going 734 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,079 on in this administration. One of the things that I 735 00:43:44,119 --> 00:43:47,920 think we've been talking about all along is congressional responsibility. 736 00:43:48,519 --> 00:43:51,239 It can't just be executive order because that is certainly 737 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,760 subject to change. It has to be codified. That's what 738 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,119 has to be the next level. And that's you know, 739 00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:01,199 perhaps an extended conversation for a different time. But I 740 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,760 want to thank you very much for joining us and 741 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,119 and the work that you've done over these past what 742 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,480 thirty two years. I appreciate I. 743 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,599 Speaker 2: Can't thank you enough for having me. I really appreciate it. 744 00:44:11,639 --> 00:44:14,400 I appreciate your interest in this and I think you know, 745 00:44:15,159 --> 00:44:17,360 you know, not to leave it on a negative note. 746 00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:19,679 I was talking about all this growth, but I do think, 747 00:44:20,079 --> 00:44:22,360 I really do think you know, most of the world's 748 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,119 wealth isn't created. We have the opportunity if we do 749 00:44:25,199 --> 00:44:27,719 a little bit of change in framing in the Trump 750 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,840 administration in terms of what it takes to actually shrink 751 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,079 the state, not just the administrative part of the state, 752 00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:37,159 but all of it and return things back to civil 753 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,559 society and start to try to roll things back. I 754 00:44:40,559 --> 00:44:43,679 think we can do that in Free the future, you know, 755 00:44:44,039 --> 00:44:46,159 since I say, you don't have to tell the grass 756 00:44:46,159 --> 00:44:48,039 to grow, you just need to take the rocks off 757 00:44:48,079 --> 00:44:49,280 of it. And that's what we have to do. 758 00:44:49,599 --> 00:44:52,159 Speaker 1: There you go, and thanks to my guest today, Clyde 759 00:44:52,159 --> 00:44:55,679 Wayne Cruz of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, on the latest 760 00:44:55,719 --> 00:45:00,239 ten thousand Commandments the cost burden of federal regulations. You've 761 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,719 been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 762 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,760 I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll 763 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,599 be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of 764 00:45:09,639 --> 00:45:11,599 freedom and anxious for the frame. 765 00:45:18,639 --> 00:45:29,599 Speaker 2: Heard the fame Boy Serison and then it faded away.