WEBVTT 1 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:20.519 Hello, and welcome to the Texas Tribune Tripcast for Tuesday, 2 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:24.399 September ninth, twenty twenty five. I am Matthew Watkins, editor 3 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:27.199 in chief of the Textas Tribune, and I'm all alone 4 00:00:27.399 --> 00:00:31.800 in trib cast headquarters today as Eleanor is on vacation 5 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:36.880 and my two guests are both joining me remotely from 6 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:40.719 work travel as well. But because Eleanor is on vacation, 7 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:43.320 that means I got sole discretion and deciding what we're 8 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:46.359 talking about this week, and that means a topic of 9 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:50.399 conversation that is frequent and common in the Watkins household, 10 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:54.960 the Star Test and its future, its demise, and its replacement. 11 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:58.679 After two failed efforts in the regular legislative session in 12 00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:02.640 the first special session, lawmakers last week approved a bill 13 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:05.120 that would eliminate the Star Test and replace it with 14 00:01:05.159 --> 00:01:07.959 something new starting in the twenty seven to twenty eight 15 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.040 school year. And we're going to break that down today 16 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:14.159 with two experts on the topic. First off, an education 17 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:17.480 reporter for the Texas Tribune. Stay Ha day joining us 18 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:19.959 from Indiana? Is that right? 19 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:24.840 Stayha, I'm in Chicago right now, so hanging in that. 20 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:28.760 Room, all right, Very good, very good, Well, welcome Staha, 21 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:32.640 and we also have bridgid warlead, Chief State Impact Officer 22 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:35.840 for the Commit Partnership, which is a Dallas County nonprofit 23 00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:40.799 seeking to improve educational and economic outcomes within Dallas County. 24 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:44.920 Bridget is joining us from a hotel in New Orleans. 25 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:48.120 I am I am happy to be here all. 26 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.239 Right, thank you for joining us. So, the Star Test, 27 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:56.280 like I said, has been a hot topic for parents, teachers, educators, 28 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:59.840 and many other people over the past few months. A 29 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:02.560 lot of conversation and debate that got us to the 30 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:05.719 place we are right here right now. Steha, I want 31 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.120 you to kind of start by talking about the present. 32 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:10.039 The Star Test, which will remain in effect for a 33 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:15.639 couple of school years right now, was very controversial leading 34 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:17.759 to the changes that we saw. But tell us a 35 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:20.960 little bit about like the testing arrangement that we have 36 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:23.080 right now in Texas schools. 37 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:29.000 So this is a huge pain point for family, Like 38 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:33.199 across the state of Texas, it's been the current standardized test. 39 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:36.240 It's one test at the end of the year, it 40 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:40.360 runs for it's for hours and hours, and kids once 41 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:42.439 they finished taking the test, they have to sit at 42 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:46.759 their desk and not move. It's just like stay silent. 43 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:49.759 And it's also I think because it's at the end 44 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:53.479 of the year and students know that not just them 45 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:56.000 are going to be graded on it, but teachers and 46 00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:58.280 their schools are going to be graded on it. It's 47 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:02.599 really really stressful for them. So it's been a topic 48 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:05.159 that has I think come up on the campaign trail 49 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:09.639 for lawmakers because they are hearing about the stress that 50 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:12.120 it puts on students. They hear from their own kids 51 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:13.919 this idea that students don't even want to go to 52 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:17.319 school on the days that testing is taking place because 53 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:21.319 of the pressure. So there's this general consensus across the board, 54 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:24.560 across the state, across lawmakers that something needs to be 55 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:28.159 done about this test that is really really putting an 56 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.479 unnecessary amount of stress on students. 57 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:33.800 I mean, the idea here, right to take a step back, 58 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:39.560 is to measure how successful schools are at educating their 59 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:44.439 you know, students and preparing them for life beyond high 60 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:46.800 school and things like that. And I guess there's also 61 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:51.240 an element bridget two to kind of measure you know, 62 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:55.400 whether the individual students have enough you know, have gained 63 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.639 enough knowledge to complete their schooling or advance in their schooling. 64 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:01.159 And things like that. I mean, what does Bridget is 65 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.719 it sets up a lot of high stakes, right, and 66 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:08.000 a lot of nervousness. I have a third grader and 67 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:12.120 a seventh grader, my two kids very different attitudes. On 68 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:15.280 the one hand, I have my daughter, the you know, perfectionist, 69 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.399 wants to ace the test, very stressed, very concerned. I 70 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:21.879 have to sit her down and be like, look, it's okay, 71 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.680 like you're going to do fine on this test. They're 72 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:28.519 really what the what really matters? This is for the school. 73 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.160 This is not going to affect your kind of individual 74 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:33.720 success as a student. And then I have my son 75 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:36.279 who could care less about this test, you know, and 76 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:39.040 our teachers like, hey, can you like bribe this kid 77 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:41.319 to really focus and try hard? And you know, and 78 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:43.600 so we have to sit him down and say like, hey, 79 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:46.079 actually this test matters, and if you do well on it, 80 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:48.759 we'll get you a lego set or something like that. 81 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.759 And so, I mean, that's that's the stakes, right. Bridget, 82 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:56.720 tell us a little bit about kind of in your 83 00:04:56.759 --> 00:04:59.959 community in the area you felt face, kind of how 84 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:03.480 people feel about, you know, whether the star was doing 85 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:07.079 a good job of accomplishing the goals that it was 86 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:09.720 set out for sure, So there's. 87 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:11.519 A lot in that question, so I'm going to work 88 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:12.160 to unpack it. 89 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.279 Also, legos are powerful, and that's something we should all 90 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:21.480 take away. So assessments are incredibly important because they help 91 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:26.199 us measure whether students are learning in the classroom. And 92 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:29.639 I think one thing that is missed a lot when 93 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.879 people talk about the high stakes nature of our assessments 94 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:37.240 is that Texas is actually pretty unique in our accountability 95 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:40.800 system that the result what we measure is the better 96 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:46.279 of absolute performance and growth, that is not those two 97 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:49.839 things being one or the other the better. That is 98 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:54.680 not common in most state assessments. So when we're giving 99 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:58.600 students state assessments, what we're really measuring at the end 100 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:01.160 of the day is did the student come in at 101 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:04.839 least a year further along than they did when they 102 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:08.639 walked in, making sure that the instruction that happened in 103 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.279 that classroom didn't put them further behind. And that is 104 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:16.120 something that when I talk to people, everyone generally is 105 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:18.560 very supportive of. We want to make sure our students 106 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:22.199 are continuing to progress further. So I think part of 107 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:27.000 this is also just reframing what assessment and accountability is 108 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:32.639 truly measuring. The other thing that I will say is 109 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:36.839 I think this whole debate has been a bit of 110 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:41.079 a call to action for the adults that are around 111 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:45.639 our students around assessments. When I was a student, we 112 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:48.600 had state assessments and the only thing I remember is. 113 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:49.959 We got pancakes that day. 114 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:52.360 My mom made us like a bigger breakfast that day 115 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.920 than we normally did. I was a teacher. I was 116 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:59.079 an elementary school teacher, and my kids didn't. I never 117 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:01.879 talked to my students about the assessment having a connection 118 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:05.199 to the rating of our school or my evaluation. We 119 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:07.680 talked about it as a way for them to demonstrate 120 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:10.480 everything that they had learned that year. So I think 121 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:14.519 there's a reframing also around the narrative of what this 122 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:19.199 opportunity is for students. But then the third thing that 123 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:22.600 I think is important is that this debate caused us 124 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:27.439 to step back and think what components of our assessment 125 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:30.240 system are really necessary? Do we need kids sitting for 126 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:33.600 hours in an assessment to determine whether or not they 127 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:35.360 have learned what they were taught? 128 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:37.160 No, we don't, And. 129 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:40.600 We see those changes in here. We also see changes 130 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:42.839 to the assessment that are now going to give much 131 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:48.160 better actionable data to parents and to teachers at checkpoints 132 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:50.879 throughout the year. So it's not here's a test we 133 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:52.360 give you at the end of the year, and by 134 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:54.639 the way, the results aren't going to be available to 135 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:57.879 you until after the student has started the summer break. 136 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:03.240 Excellent, Okay, So a lot to unpack there, and I'm 137 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:06.480 very interested in a lot of those different topics. But Saiha, 138 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:10.240 just briefly, I mean, talk a little bit more about 139 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:15.279 the the What was it specifically about this test that 140 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:16.439 people were unhappy with? 141 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:19.920 You have so you have one test at the end 142 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:24.000 of the year, and so that is that is the nature. 143 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:26.000 That's like, you have students they are learning all year 144 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:28.199 through and then at the end of the day, at 145 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.639 the end of the year, they're taking one test. It 146 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:33.279 runs from it's designed to take about three hours, but 147 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.639 it can go up to seven hours. Folks are unhappy 148 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:42.000 because they are saying that the questions are too rigorous 149 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:45.320 and don't actually meet state standards. That's a criticism that 150 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:50.039 comes up, and I think the environment that these students 151 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:52.320 are in that there it's just like this amount of 152 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:55.879 stress that they're putting on their put under is just 153 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:58.600 it's not needed that there's a way to do this 154 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:03.440 that so that they're not under that much stress. And 155 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:06.200 I think there's another there's another piece of it to 156 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:09.759 where Bridget, I think you were getting at this idea right, 157 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.720 like that you need standardized testing in order to be 158 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:16.000 able to measure how students are doing in the classroom, 159 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.399 to measure whether schools are doing a good job educating students. 160 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:23.600 But the tests that are in place, that are currently 161 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:26.840 those scores will be factored into how schools are assessed. 162 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:31.879 But are those tests doing a good job measuring student success? 163 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:36.399 School success are how are the tests formatted so that 164 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:40.519 they are doing the best job helping students to in 165 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:41.799 the learning process. 166 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:46.279 So let's talk about HbA. Then this was the bill 167 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:49.600 that passed in the special session and it changed how 168 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:55.639 these tests will work. Break down for me, I'll go 169 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:58.279 to stay on this first and and then go to 170 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:00.559 you Bridget for your your analysis. Here, break down to 171 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:03.360 me what is different or what will be different once 172 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:06.080 these new versions of these tests are put in place. 173 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:10.399 Right, so you had currently we have one end of 174 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:13.919 the year test. What that will be replaced with is 175 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:17.840 three shorter tests taken throughout the year, so first at 176 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:19.759 the beginning of the year, then at the middle of 177 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:22.000 the year, and then at the end of the year. 178 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:27.799 The first two tests in theory, schools should be able 179 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:31.960 to swap that out with tests that they're already giving students, 180 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:36.000 so tests that are familiar in the classroom, like map 181 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:41.399 testing that it's nationally recognized tests that students are taking 182 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:44.480 all over the country And so the idea with being 183 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:46.519 able to swap those beginning and the middle of the 184 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:50.519 year tests is that it'll actually reduce testing since they're 185 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:52.639 not actually going to This is the idea, right like 186 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:54.360 the idea is that they're not going to have to 187 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:56.879 take an additional test because these are tests they can 188 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:00.679 just sub in. But it's not really clear yet exams 189 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:03.159 are going to be able to be accepted for that 190 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:06.159 swap in, and then that last end of the year 191 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.960 test will still be one that the TEA has a 192 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:11.840 big hand in creating those questions that across the board, 193 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.840 every district has to take the same tests. All these 194 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:18.960 three tests should be shorter. They're designed to be shorter 195 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:24.279 than that one three hour test. But I think there's 196 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:27.000 a lot of questions right now about there's an intention 197 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:29.360 for this to decrease testing. There's a lot of questions 198 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:33.440 right now about what this actually increased testing. But in 199 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:36.320 addition to that, there's a lot of things of the bill. 200 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.039 In addition to that, there's a lot of discussion about 201 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:42.120 how the grading will look like and what the results 202 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:46.000 will look like. So the first two tests all three tests, 203 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:48.279 but really the first two tests will be known as 204 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:51.720 what is like nationally, it's what they're called norm reference tests, 205 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:56.159 and so that grading and the results will look like 206 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:59.519 percentile ranks. So students' performance is going to be compared 207 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.399 against the peer, so they may be in the fiftieth 208 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:06.440 percentile and there's sevent percentile. So all three tests you'll 209 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:08.600 get results that look like that. The end of the 210 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:11.759 year test will look really similar to what the Star 211 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:14.679 test looks like right now, in that the TEA sets 212 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:18.799 these benchmarks, right like you need to get x x 213 00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:23.200 points in order to be meeting state benchmarks, and so 214 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:28.080 they set certain scores that students to reach to say, Okay, 215 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:32.600 I basically passed or I didn't pass, and that will 216 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:36.200 assess you know, whether how what how many students in 217 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:39.799 the state are like meeting state goals or learning those 218 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:45.080 like state meeting state standards, and then it's a it's 219 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:46.879 a whole, it's a it's a lot of pieces, and 220 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:49.759 then there's a piece of like we can expect test 221 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:52.159 scores to come back much faster. So in the past 222 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:56.639 we've had to wait weeks for parents to get their 223 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.440 test back, and so that has been an issue because 224 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:03.120 schools out and then you've got your test scores, but 225 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:05.840 you can no longer reach the teacher, right, and so 226 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:07.600 you can no longer talk about it. It's the idea is 227 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:10.200 now it's only supposed to take about two days, and 228 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:12.639 so the idea is, you know, you have these three 229 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:16.720 tests throughout the year. You should be able to use 230 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:19.840 these test results and information from the test results to 231 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:23.440 actually change what is being learned in the classroom. And 232 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:26.240 also you're getting that information back quicker, so you can 233 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:27.879 make those adjustments quicker. 234 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:32.639 Yeah. Two other just interesting things that I saw in 235 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:35.639 the bill. Right, this idea of practice tests. Right, one 236 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:38.440 of the big complaints I think among teachers and educators, 237 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:40.559 right is they have to spend so much time preparing 238 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.320 for the Star test that they're not able to focus 239 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.559 on actual teaching. Right, This would include correct me if 240 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:49.279 I'm wrong, a ban on kind of running students through 241 00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:53.039 practice tests. One expert cited in a story you wrote, 242 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:56.320 Steja says, that would buy back, you know, fifteen to 243 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:00.120 thirty hours of lost instructional time by replacing that, and 244 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:02.799 then also just the number of tests things your tests 245 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:05.200 on you know, being paired back a little bit english 246 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:07.840 to being one in particular, we no longer need to 247 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:10.360 take that test anymore. 248 00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:13.120 Okay, So I make a point about the practice test. 249 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:14.759 Yeah, absolutely, it's important. 250 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:19.480 So it does prohibit practice tests, but it also now 251 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.159 by creating the beginning of the year and middle of 252 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:27.679 the year shorter assessments, it gives kids an opportunity. 253 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:28.879 To practice for the end of the year. 254 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.080 Because there is a benefit to practice tests. 255 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:32.120 I mean, we all. 256 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:34.039 Took practice tests for SAT and ACT. 257 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:36.440 You got to get used to the way the questions 258 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:37.320 are formatted. 259 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.840 And so while we're now removing the kind of okay, everybody, 260 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:45.279 we're going to take a whole practice assessment, we are 261 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:49.919 giving students access to shorter assessments at the beginning in 262 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.159 the middle of the year that look like the assessment 263 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:54.799 they're going to take at the end of the year. 264 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:57.519 It is true that in practice beginning of the year 265 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.200 and middle of the year benchmarks are happening right now, 266 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:04.840 but they're a different testing vendor because the state doesn't 267 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:05.519 create inter. 268 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:06.519 Re benchmark right now. 269 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:11.240 Now, they will see similar test questions, similar format beginning, 270 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:14.440 middle and end of the year. So practice is still there, 271 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:18.279 but these long sit in and take practice. 272 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:19.000 Tests are gone. 273 00:15:19.960 --> 00:15:22.919 You know, it's interesting to watch this because we hear 274 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:26.759 these concerns, some of some of them are very much 275 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:29.360 legitimate about the frustrations with the test. But Bridget, I mean, 276 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:33.159 one of the things that's going on here too is 277 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:35.960 you need to measure whether schools are doing what's asked 278 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.639 of them, and in any situation, you know, it's it's 279 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.080 hard to come up with a fair and rigorous way 280 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.240 of doing that without a test. I'm struggle to think 281 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.879 of how that might look like otherwise. And if you're 282 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:51.279 going to have some kind of test that's going to 283 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:53.960 measure whether you can advance in a grade, whether what 284 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:56.080 you know, what letter grade your school is going to 285 00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:59.919 get from the tea, and and you know, in extreme cases, 286 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.919 whether if you are failing that test for enough years 287 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:05.639 in a row, whether the TA might have the ability 288 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:08.080 or the power or the interest to take over the 289 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:11.240 government of your school district. When you have those kinds 290 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:16.200 of expectations, there's going to be pressure. And so I mean, 291 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:18.039 one of the things that I've wondered about is I've 292 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:20.519 watched this sort of play out, is like, is it 293 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:25.080 really possible to design a test that teachers and parents 294 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:27.799 and other people who are going to feel that pressure 295 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:30.799 are going to be okay with, are going to be 296 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:34.080 happy with? Do you think that is possible? Do you 297 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:36.960 think it's important to do it? Anyways? And I guess 298 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:39.000 maybe the last question is do you think this will 299 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:40.519 get us closer to that goal? 300 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:45.840 So I do think it's necessary, And I will harken 301 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:47.679 back to what I said at the beginning that I 302 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:51.399 think everyone thinks that the evaluation is just based on 303 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:55.919 the ultimate score that the student gets. It is also growth. 304 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.519 So again, we all want kids to come out of 305 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:03.039 each at least one year ahead of where they were, 306 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.079 or they're going to fall further behind. So I think 307 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.920 we have to have an assessment to measure whether that 308 00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:12.799 is happening. And when we reframe it in that way, 309 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:15.559 it does take off a little more of the pressure, 310 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.319 especially for our schools and our teachers that are regularly 311 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:23.000 teaching students who come into their classrooms or their campus buildings. 312 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.240 Behind the other thing. 313 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:30.079 That I will say is that the assessment you said 314 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:32.799 fair and rigorous, I think the other one is valid 315 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:37.519 and reliable. So we have to create an assessment because 316 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.400 there are things tied to the assessment that we truly 317 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.160 believe the results are valid and reliable. And so that 318 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:47.519 leads to some of the environment in which the testing 319 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.440 is happening, and I think that that is absolutely necessary. 320 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:53.960 I think you asked whether this assessment will do that. 321 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:57.880 I think it will get us closer than we previously 322 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:02.279 have been, which is good new. I also think this 323 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:05.440 assessment will help our teachers and our. 324 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:06.960 Parents help their students. 325 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:11.200 So the language you see throughout this bill is instructurally 326 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:14.200 and of course I butcher it as I say it 327 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:20.160 instructionally supportive assessment. The goal is that when students take 328 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:24.519 the test, parents and teachers are now getting a report 329 00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:27.400 that says, this is how your kid did compared to 330 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:31.000 other kids in Texas, also compared to the cut scores 331 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:34.599 of the certain achievement levels. And then here are some 332 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:40.400 actionable strategies you can use to help your kid master 333 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:43.599 what they haven't figured out yet. So this is supposed 334 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:47.559 to be used to inform instruction. So the ultimate goal 335 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.640 is to have students again progressing at least a year 336 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:53.480 so that they don't fall further behind, and I think 337 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:55.839 this test gets us closer to doing that. 338 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:01.279 Now, do you have you heard from teachers, I mean teachers, 339 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.359 school administrators and things like that. Do you think they 340 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:05.720 agree with that assessment that this is a step in 341 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:07.359 the right direction, that it's getting us closer. 342 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:11.200 Yeah, I mean I've talked to talk to teachers and 343 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:14.359 administors all over the state, and we're sort of getting 344 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:17.720 a mixed bag. Like I think on one hand, books 345 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.720 are saying like, we want these tests to be useful, right, 346 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:22.920 and so then it's like if you have tests that 347 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:26.480 measure progress over the year, then that will actually come 348 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:29.119 in they can actually use that in the classroom and 349 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:32.680 it's shorter, and they like that. I think they hear 350 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:35.680 the idea of three tests over one test. I think 351 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.200 that for some teachers that ring some alarm bells, like 352 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:40.799 is that just going to be going to be more testing? 353 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:44.640 Is that going to just create you know, the pressure 354 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.119 that you're feeling at the end of the year, now 355 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:48.000 is that just going to be tripled? So I think 356 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.319 there's just some anxiety right now, and it's like there's 357 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:52.880 a lot to be seen, Like we don't know yet 358 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.759 what those beginning and middle middle of the year tests 359 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.920 will look like, what whether they'll actually be able to 360 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.200 swap it out for tests that they're already taking, and 361 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:03.920 what those tests could look like there. So there's so 362 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.559 much unknown about those first two tests. So I think 363 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:10.000 in that uncertainty, we're hearing some like some worries. 364 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.119 Okay, very good, very good. Yeah, it just I mean 365 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.119 I have watched this with a lot of interest because 366 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.240 I see it play out, you know, in the news 367 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:22.240 and in our coverage. I also see it play out 368 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:24.680 in my own personal life. But I also just remember 369 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.279 the history, right, so, you know, this is what the 370 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:31.200 fifth or so version of a standardized test that that 371 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:33.680 Texas has done. You know, it started off with the 372 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.559 Texas Assessment of Basic Skills. Then you had the teams test, 373 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:40.720 the Toss test, which is the test I took when 374 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:43.880 I was a kid. Then they switched that to the 375 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:48.039 Text test, Then you had the Star Test. You know, 376 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:52.480 there has been a lot of sort of bites at 377 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:55.359 this Apple attempts to try to try to get this 378 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:59.720 to where they need to be bridgid, what do you think, 379 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:02.519 what do we know differently now than we knew back 380 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:06.359 then That might suggest that this might be a different 381 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:07.160 situation here. 382 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.839 So I will start by saying I arrived in Texas 383 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:14.880 in October of twenty nineteen, so I only know the 384 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:20.000 star and then this assessment. I grew up in Virginia, 385 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:24.240 which has the worst testing acronym standards of learning SOL, 386 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:27.200 and it's been SOL since I was there and continued. 387 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:28.720 So that's one. 388 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:31.759 State that is stuck by its name because it's almost 389 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:36.640 humorous at this point. So I can't talk too far 390 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.440 back about how things have changed from one to the other. 391 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:45.359 I do think though, this is less of a change 392 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:48.720 in the purpose of the assessment and what the assessment 393 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:54.640 is assessing, and it is directly trying to target the 394 00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:57.480 feedback that has come from parents and teachers. I don't 395 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.119 know if the other assessments in the past have done that, 396 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:04.000 but the shortening of the test, the assessments giving back 397 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:08.480 given back earlier, and trying to create a more introductionally 398 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:12.880 supportive that has all been in response to feedback that 399 00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:15.839 I know legislators are getting constantly. 400 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.519 Okay, so you had an interesting story kind of in 401 00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:22.759