WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.680 --> 00:00:03.240 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingana Show. 2 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:06.639 I'm here with j Neil Janiel right, Jay, Jay's okay, 3 00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:09.439 you can call me Josh, Josh, Josh Neil. 4 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:12.519 What's going on, Josh, Oh, it's going well, it's it's 5 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:14.759 a great pleasure to be speaking to you. I have 6 00:00:14.839 --> 00:00:17.600 to say shout out to my friend Jefferson Lee. H 7 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:20.120 he put me on to you because you have this 8 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.320 great series with Thomas seven seven on like all these 9 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:27.879 historical things, and it's just a it's a real it's 10 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:30.519 a real public service you two guys do, so kudos 11 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:30.719 to you. 12 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:34.560 Thank you, and then tomorrow starts the balk the nineteen 13 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:36.000 nineties Balkan Wars. 14 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:37.679 All right, let's go. 15 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:40.439 Yeah, tell everybody a little bit about yourself. 16 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:45.240 Well yeah, so, as I said before, I host or 17 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:48.079 co host Jefferson Lee Show with my friend Jefferson Lee, 18 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:51.759 who's also in this. I write. I have a substack 19 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:56.280 Jneil dot substack. I've branded it as Psychopolitics and it's 20 00:00:56.280 --> 00:01:01.240 mostly essays on psychology and politics, and there's an accompanying 21 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:07.319 YouTube channel. My first book with Imperium Press is called 22 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:12.159 American Extremist. The Psychology of Political extremism, and I actually 23 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:13.439 got a new one coming out with them in a 24 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:17.599 few weeks called Understanding Conspiracy Theories. But yeah, for people 25 00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:20.959 who don't know me, I've been i would say, in 26 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:24.280 the radical righte with my name and face out there 27 00:01:24.359 --> 00:01:31.159 since twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen. I made the switch. I think, 28 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:34.200 like for a lot of people I know, we were 29 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:41.799 hardcore Trumpists, like very libertarian, but like on that cusp 30 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:44.920 of well what used to be called the liberty, like 31 00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:48.840 the libertarian to a right pipeline. And so I was 32 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.680 one of those guys. And when when the Seria strikes happened, 33 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:56.959 that's when I started to look away from Trump and 34 00:01:57.000 --> 00:01:59.599 start looking to other things. And then in twenty seventeen, 35 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:02.000 obviously that was the ault right. So for people who 36 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:03.599 don't know me, that's my background. 37 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:06.239 Tell me a little bit about American extremists. 38 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:13.639 Yeah, so a little bit of a personal story. I 39 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:16.439 was in twenty nineteen. I was involved with some people 40 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:20.759 that your audience may be familiar with, people like Richard Spencer, 41 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:24.360 so on and so forth, Augustas and Victis. At the time, 42 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:30.599 he was running for office at presidential office and remember yeah, yeah, 43 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:35.840 and it was wild, great guy, terrible what happened to him? 44 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:40.680 He's out, obviously, and so he's back to streaming, you know, 45 00:02:40.759 --> 00:02:43.000 to your audience, showing your love and affection. He's a 46 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:45.680 great guy. But I got docked as a result of 47 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.240 getting involved with a lot of those people. And I 48 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:51.879 had already I came into the alt right because I 49 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:54.240 have a background in psychology, maybe you guessed from the 50 00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:58.319 title of the book, and I went you know, I 51 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:02.800 didn't go to the doctoral direction because the kinds of 52 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:06.039 questions I was interested in were more political and philosophical 53 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:10.919 than like strictly speaking about mental health or whatever social 54 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:14.879 science research I guess on today. So I was already 55 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.479 working on some stuff observations I had over the years. 56 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:19.560 But it was really like getting into the radical right 57 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:22.479 was like having the veil pulled away from your eyes 58 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:26.159 entirely so, and then getting docked as a result of 59 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:29.879 that kind of made me have to confront some kind 60 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:35.639 of realities. Like when I got into it, I was like, oh, well, Nazis, 61 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:38.719 that's not a real thing. That's just like a libtard fantasy. 62 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:41.599 And you know, by and large it's not you know, 63 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:45.919 it's not like there's a well organized, politically active machine 64 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.919 that has political, cultural material resources, things like that. Obviously 65 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:54.800 that's not happening, but nonetheless there are people who espouse 66 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:59.719 those views, and they range from totally harmless, tepid, you know, 67 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:03.680 contributing members of society who just want the trains to 68 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:09.960 run on time, and on the other end are actual degenerates. 69 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.159 People you wouldn't want to associate yourself with. The reality. 70 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:15.960 I think, as most people probably know, is that really 71 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:24.120 is an extreme, heavily ostracized minority, not just by polite society, 72 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.439 but even in these kinds of circles. You know, I 73 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:28.720 do think we do a really good job of self policing, 74 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:31.560 maybe to our detriment, because obviously the left doesn't do 75 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:36.079 that at all. They just set their freaks loose. So 76 00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:38.839 when I came out of that, I felt like I 77 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:41.959 had some unique things to say about what was wrong 78 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:46.639 with American politics, left right and center, and so I 79 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:50.720 kind of wrote the book imagining I'm holding someone's hand 80 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:55.480 through a red pill process a very you know, not 81 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:58.279 like cutesy memes and gifts like this is a little 82 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.319 bit more. You're gonna have to take some breaks, You 83 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:04.240 have to go back to the corner and have them 84 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:07.480 you know, fucking whatever those things in boxing that they 85 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:09.480 put when you get when you start developing the mouses, 86 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:11.920 they put that huge fucking like think or compress on 87 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:15.079 your head like this is a red pill like that, 88 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:17.560 but you'll need the compress and everything. So it starts 89 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:26.199 off talking about media control, myth the mythological narrativizing as 90 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:29.639 the framework people should be thinking about rather than like 91 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:33.040 ideology or so on and so forth. And so I 92 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:36.959 carry people through this, you know, here's what's you know, 93 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:39.959 here's what myth is. Here's like how this kind of 94 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:45.360 psychological framework is influencing your decision making, so on and 95 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:49.720 so forth. And I give actual lots of citations to that. 96 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:54.920 And then obviously going of the media. You know, this 97 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:58.120 is because the basic thesis of the book is it's 98 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:00.519 not an original idea. I just really kind of beat 99 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:01.920 the hell out of it over the course of the book. 100 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:08.240 Is that the liberal establishment is genuinely where political violence 101 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:17.879 originates from. Whether it's you know, forced integration by gun 102 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:23.519 by military, whether it's Antifa in the streets, which is 103 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:27.639 not so much a thing right now, whether it's journalists 104 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:33.000 going after you wait, oh yes, right, just yeah, I 105 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:36.879 don't want to speak too soon, knock on wood. So 106 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.000 getting people to think, which is very easy if you're 107 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:44.240 talking to conservatives, because they already hate the government, and 108 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:46.079 they hated the government for like one hundred and fifty 109 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:50.000 three hundred years. The Americans have just always hated the government, 110 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.160 and so it's very easy to be like, well, here's 111 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:57.319 here's this persecutory framework, but you have to adjust some 112 00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:59.920 of the variables because obviously Connink runs on his own 113 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:08.439 persecutory framework and it's false, as we all know. So 114 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.199 that's the basic thesis, and then I try to explain 115 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:13.720 how that is, and in some cases it's talking about 116 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:17.079 literally I was writing this during twenty twenty, so every 117 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:21.759 week i'm like kind of pseudo like like almost like 118 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:25.519 a historian of it, like an ancient Roman historian, like 119 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:28.040 there were this many black people on the street this day, 120 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:32.680 and they busted this many heads or whatever. So it's 121 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:38.439 half like okay, philosophical analysis, but also half like detailing 122 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:40.839 the actual political violence that was happening at that time. 123 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:42.800 I actually think it made it even more impactful because 124 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:48.000 it's like here's theoretical stuff, here's some nice sise sources 125 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:51.399 and citations. And then also, here's the video of a 126 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:54.160 black guy stomping on someone's head until they're bleeding all 127 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:58.160 over the place. Obviously that's not what's in the book. 128 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:00.800 And then taking these people, you know, well, here's what's 129 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:02.560 wrong with the left wing in America, here's what's wrong 130 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:07.680 with the centrism, liberalism it kind of informally, and then 131 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:09.600 what's wrong with the right, And a lot of it 132 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:13.920 relies very heavily on kind of classical psychoanalytic theories, but 133 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:17.319 it's not all psychoanalysis, and as Mike likes to say, 134 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:21.240 the book does take Freud back for the right. So 135 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:26.319 I mean, if you have if you're allergic to or 136 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:29.720 sensitive to Freud, and obviously I understand why people would be. 137 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:35.440 It's very much like a different spin on kind of 138 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:36.240 a familiar story. 139 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:39.440 One of these days, you've got to come back and 140 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:43.120 do an episode just on narrative building, because I mean, 141 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.879 that's where everything is. And anybody who doesn't realize that 142 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.000 after the last four years is just not paying attention. 143 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:54.399 They're in their ideological box and they're you know, playing 144 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:58.200 playing with is them and their friends playing by themselves. 145 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:01.080 You know, it's just you and stepped out to look 146 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:05.559 around and see exactly what's happening out here. But one 147 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:07.639 of the things that I really been looking at lately 148 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:14.360 is individualism. And I think it's hard to miss that 149 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:22.159 this was. Individualism was a big part of the founding 150 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:26.000 of this country. You can see it in the founding documents. 151 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:30.080 People will argue that, sure, you know there was individual 152 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:33.120 people talked about individual rights, but there was collectives and everything. 153 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:35.960 Well sure, okay, yeah, there were collectives and everything, but 154 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:40.759 everything always moves left, it seems, so you you sort 155 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:43.080 of knew that it wasn't going to last anyone who 156 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:46.919 you could look at you you know things, things don't 157 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:51.279 get better until they get really, really, really really bad. 158 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:55.720 And so there's a section in the book where you 159 00:09:55.799 --> 00:10:00.000 talk about is after the narrative, part about the narrative, 160 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:07.399 it where it's individualism, anarchism, and I think sociopathy. So 161 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:10.720 can we get a little bit into you know, like 162 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:15.600 what you see as when it comes to individualism, is 163 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:17.879 that what you see is that is that what you 164 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:21.200 see this society and this culture being all about. 165 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:27.200 Yes and no pros and cons on both sides of 166 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:30.559 that equation. I mean, Kevin McDonald obviously famously has written 167 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:34.320 about this. I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say that 168 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:38.480 the Western tradition is the tradition of the individual. However, 169 00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:41.720 in the same way, to be a liberal in the 170 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:44.840 eighteenth century meant something different than to be a liberal today. 171 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:49.200 To be an individual in the eighteenth century meant something 172 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:50.480 different than it does today. 173 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:52.200 I read a lot. 174 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.080 I've been reading a lot of San Francis and James 175 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.559 Burnham lately, and you know, one of the things that 176 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:03.440 San Francis emphasizes, Sorry, I just lost my train of 177 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:05.919 thought is that. 178 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:09.960 So eighteenth century liberalism is different than liberalism today. 179 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:12.120 And then being an individual okay, thank you. So he 180 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:15.879 talks about like, for instance, great safe, very good job. 181 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:18.399 You know, he talks about okay, you know, there's these 182 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:20.879 different types of liberals, and if you were a liberal 183 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:26.759 in the eighteenth century, actually, you know, fundamentally, what's distinguishing 184 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:30.559 it from today's liberal is all of these restraints and 185 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:35.639 considerations and obligations and duties and belongingness and embeddedness. That 186 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:41.240 is the background of all this cool, sexy enlightenment liberal 187 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.600 stuff that we started doing over the last couple hundred years. 188 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:48.279 There was a story in the news not too long ago, 189 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:50.440 maybe a couple of years ago, someone was trying to 190 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:54.720 get Immanuel count canceled because they found his like private 191 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:58.879 correspondences where he just talks about racism and hating women 192 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:01.879 and stuff like that. And it's like, none of these 193 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:05.240 people it was just a foregone conclusion that that that 194 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:12.720 whatever they theorized was occurring in a homogeneous European Christian context. 195 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.440 So same thing with being an individual. You still had 196 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:20.600 responsibilities and obligations and duties and and and other things. 197 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:31.559 Your individualism was still curtailed by larger social forces, the church, 198 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:35.639 the different political organizations, so and so forth at that time, 199 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:39.039 and so you still had to fit in society. But 200 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:42.720 today it's really the opposite. Society is now increasingly bending 201 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:50.000 to accommodate the most extreme individual people who can collectivize 202 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.919 and then create this political edifice that that makes the 203 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:56.360 rest of us conform to them. Where I work, you know, 204 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:01.639 I had to accommodate a gender, non whatever kind of person, 205 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:04.840 and you know that's their individualism kind of like having 206 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:08.399 this warping effect on the social fields around them. Like, well, 207 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:10.639 suddenly the rest of us are caught in your madness, 208 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:13.799 And that's just part of the equation you said before 209 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:18.279 you kind of like hinted at the moldbug line about 210 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:22.480 you know, Cthulhu always swimming left. I think that's obviously 211 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:27.480 because technology has this corrosive effect on social norms and 212 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:33.240 morera's the ultimate consequence or outcome of which is this 213 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:38.399 kind of radical liberation from all this social embeddedness going on. 214 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:42.360 So today, to be an individual is I mean, I'm 215 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:45.200 not the first person to say this. Your audience hopefully 216 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:47.639 very well understands this. To be an individual today is 217 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:51.080 unlike any probably any kind of person that has ever 218 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:54.519 existed in human history. To the point I remember I 219 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.440 for a short spell, I was a teacher, the university teacher, 220 00:13:57.720 --> 00:13:59.799 and I remember telling my students like ten years ago, 221 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:03.039 like because the hot question I would always get day one, 222 00:14:03.799 --> 00:14:08.919 like intro psychology classes, like okay, professor deets, what's up 223 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:10.279 with all these trans folks? 224 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:10.559 Right? 225 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:12.759 And then like I'm trying to go through the like 226 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:15.039 syllabus and they're like can you make sense of this? 227 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:17.519 To me? Like all right, hold on, but like to 228 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:19.519 go through that conversation with them and be like, well, 229 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:22.279 guess that's not even weird, Like just wait seven years 230 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.440 and you're going to have people like with prosthetics and 231 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:27.600 you're gonna have to start calling them what they want 232 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:34.000 or just the the the the the, if you want 233 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.519 to say. The continuing like revolutionary spirit of this is 234 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:38.840 just going to keep bringing new manifestations of this. So 235 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:45.679 with regards to the title of that section, Individualism and Sociopathy, 236 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:49.879 the argument I make said, effectively, to be like an entrepreneur, 237 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:53.440 you know, the Fu Coodian self entrepreneur, to be this 238 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:58.200 neoliberal person, to be an American you know extensive air quotes, 239 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:04.679 is to be this radically self constructed person with like 240 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:11.559 no predecessor, no context, no pretext. It's solipsism. I mean, 241 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:14.440 it's every nasty word you've ever heard in a philosophy class, 242 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:17.639 but ultimately it's pathological. 243 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.519 Do you see that as like, particularly a post World 244 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:28.480 War two phenomenon where you really start seeing things this 245 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:32.039 it all start breaking apart as far as a real 246 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:34.480 change and what it means to be an individual. 247 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:39.279 Yes, although the seeds of that were very clearly starting 248 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:42.720 to show in the fifty sixty years prior to that. So, 249 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:47.200 you know, the progressive tradition in the United States at 250 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:52.480 the turn of the twentieth century was a Nazi progressive vision. 251 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:56.720 To put it indelicately, I mean everything that the Third 252 00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:00.600 Reich did, not everything, but the things that we mostly 253 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:05.840 remember them for, the economic policies and the kind of 254 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:13.679 extreme technocratic interest on social policies. That's those are Anglo inventions. 255 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:19.039 That's Atlanticist philosophy. Turn of the twentieth century. American and 256 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:21.879 Englishmen are looking out at the world and they're seeing 257 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.200 what we've come to inherit and they're like, oh my god, 258 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:26.879 what what the hell do we do about all this? 259 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:31.639 And I think there was some kind of attempt to 260 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:36.120 shepherd in a new vision of the individual that could, 261 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:40.159 you know, protect the white race, to protect white people, 262 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:43.960 to protect America, to protect England, the British Isles, to 263 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:48.600 protect political sovereignty in European nations, so on, to protect 264 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.440 the Constitution. I mean, these these things are all synonymous, really, 265 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:54.919 It's not like they're separate things. If you want to 266 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:57.039 protect the Constitution, if you want to say of America, 267 00:16:57.799 --> 00:16:59.600 if you want to do the North I almost had 268 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:02.720 Norman Rockwell, if you to the George Lincoln Rockwell thing, Well, 269 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:06.880 it's all the same thing. But uh yeah, So as 270 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:10.319 far as that post war aspect of that, I look 271 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:12.400 at the post war order, and this is an argument 272 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:17.400 I'm making my upcoming book. There was a slur that 273 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:21.799 was very common at that time used by effectively the 274 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:26.799 radical right whenever they would talk about the liberal consensus, 275 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:29.079 you know, they'd talk about, well, that's that's what they 276 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:31.119 would call them. It was this consensus view, and it 277 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:35.000 had a kind of derogatory uh kind of like proto libtard, 278 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:38.039 like if you were the consensus, your your you were brainwashed, 279 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:43.039 you were just spouting kind of like this new fangled 280 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:47.960 liberal social ideology that had no popularity really or history 281 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:54.559 prior to the Second World War. So this consensus was 282 00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:59.559 the meeting of you know, the dying Atlantis sist Empire 283 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:06.240 and this surge of European migration into the West, of 284 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:10.039 a very particular type of European from Russia, maybe the 285 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:14.000 Pale somewhere over there, and they met in the middle. 286 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:16.720 The West had to be saved. We you know, the 287 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:22.039 whole European experiment, like twentieth century is like this great 288 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:24.920 tragedy of us, just like figuring out new ways to 289 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.000 just roast each other, and by the middle of the 290 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:29.880 twentieth century, how many of us are left, not a 291 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:32.880 lot of the good ones. So it's this waning Western 292 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:37.480 empire that's bringing in a lot of this well as 293 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.680 we know now ex Bolshevist you know, or descended from 294 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:44.359 Bolshevist types who came in wanted to find a place 295 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:47.920 in America, and they found flattering ways to reinforce the 296 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:51.720 waning American liberal ideology in a way that made sense 297 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:55.319 post you know, San Francis to speak, to invoke him 298 00:18:55.359 --> 00:19:01.519 one more time, post this managerial revolution, this mass managerial revolution. 299 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:05.559 So you know, there's a lot of ideas and concepts 300 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:09.720 that emerged at that time that are not necessarily related. 301 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:12.000 Maybe if you tried to do a genealogy and try 302 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:14.839 to connect these things, like Glenn Beck on Fox News 303 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.359 with his whiteboard, maybe you couldn't do that. But nonetheless 304 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:20.559 they're all talking about the same goal. I invoked Fuko 305 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:24.160 before the Entrepreneur of the Self, his idea of neoliberalism. 306 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:29.200 This is the new American economic policy post World War Two, 307 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:35.640 which the major emphasis of which was about this internal 308 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:40.799 kind of psychic development that was supposed to be this 309 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:46.640 you know, essential to unlocking this American economic engine to 310 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:51.839 fulfilling you know, the old American idea, but in a 311 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:56.359 new way, uh, in this new technocratic society. And so 312 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.880 my inherited wisdom. You know, I'm a little bit younger 313 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.519 than you. I'm still in my thirties. I had my 314 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:06.319 birthday earlier this week. The things I was told growing up, 315 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:09.440 that we're good pieces of advice, follow your dreams, do 316 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:14.240 it makes you happy. This is like the head smashed in, 317 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:18.759 you know, inherited version of of like the Fucodian ideas, 318 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:21.880 like you can liberate yourself and you can be anything 319 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:23.440 that you want, and all of this is like a 320 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:26.960 radical political act, but it's also American and bubblah. So 321 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.920 I think it's specifically and obviously the purpose of this 322 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:35.759 consensus being, you know, how do we manage the existing 323 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:41.400 populations while we get this new migratory program in place. 324 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:45.279 So I feel like that individualism not to get like 325 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:50.279 crazy tinfoil hat is not like an intentional thing that 326 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:52.880 was done, like we're going to ameliorate or we're gonna 327 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:58.759 anesthetize people while we start moving infinity Africans around. I 328 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:01.599 think it was kind of a natural development, but the 329 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:03.680 consequences obviously for us have been terrible. 330 00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:08.359 It's sort of like we've become we're like these radical 331 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:15.400 surfs or these radical annuities, walking annuities. Basically, what they 332 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:18.839 wanted was a transactional society, and it basically turned us 333 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:23.160 into transactional beings. And yeah, nasally, that's part of the 334 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:29.640 individuality of it is what what are you contributing to commerce? 335 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:31.519 It's what the military is now. I mean, if you 336 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.319 go to the Navy's website, it will say that they 337 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:37.839 are there to protect the the you know, the sea 338 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.599 lanes for commerce in the world, you know, so that 339 00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:48.720 it can move. And yeah, so I was thinking you 340 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:51.240 were One of the things that you had mentioned was 341 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:59.400 how even with the individualism of the old, of the 342 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:03.839 previous to what we're dealing with now, when you had church, 343 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:06.559 when you had family structure, when you had a lot 344 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:08.759 of things to keep you grounded, to keep you as 345 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:13.119 part of a tight knit I think our our reno 346 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:17.119 return to the strong gods something like that. Yeah, and 347 00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:20.440 that's that's what That's what I was thinking the whole time, 348 00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:25.720 was the goal of crushing you know, like the Italian 349 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:32.400 American society and mutual aid societies, churches, and the family 350 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:42.400 is to turn everybody into this radical kind of monetary instrument. 351 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:48.799 Basically, yeah, I well, some things to keep in mind 352 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:52.960 as you're talking. I've always got the eternal like devil 353 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:55.880 angel on one side or the other. I'm a terrible contrarian. 354 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:58.279 So as you're talking, I was starting to do a 355 00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:00.279 bit a bit of a like a hey man, that's 356 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:02.599 not really fair, right, because I was starting to think, well, 357 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:05.519 transaction has always been part of society. You know, the 358 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:08.599 internal critic who's like watching us and thinking they're full 359 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:10.680 of shit. I'm trying to answer them as I'm listening 360 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:13.480 to you, like, there's always been an economic component of society. 361 00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:15.920 So fundamentally, how is this different, right, Because that's probably 362 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:19.359 what someone who's listening to you and disagrees with you 363 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.039 and me might say, And it's the fundamentally, it's a 364 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:29.720 qualitative difference more than anything else. One of the things 365 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.720 I was thinking of that I think is a really 366 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:33.839 good example of what you're talking about, a contempt a 367 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:38.160 modern phenomenon is exactly how the red pill manisphere or 368 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:43.160 community has ended up like this year, where if you 369 00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:47.799 listen to or read people in these communities talk about specifically, 370 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:50.359 men talk about, you know, why they fail with women, 371 00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:53.519 or why feminism sucks, or why the world has given 372 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.240 them a raw deal, so on and so forth. Is 373 00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:59.599 they start talking about, like they roll out their laundry 374 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:02.559 list of things that they expect the woman to bring, 375 00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:05.759 because it's a it's a tit for tat, you know, 376 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.880 I want to solve the free loader problem. You know, 377 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:11.480 all of these things where well she doesn't you know, 378 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:13.799 if she doesn't cook and do this and that and 379 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:16.440 have one hundred and seventy thousand dollars or four or 380 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:18.960 one k and blah blah blah blah. It's like, for 381 00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:21.599 one thing, it's very feminine because like the whole transactional 382 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:25.640 thing was like trying to solve the native sexual inequalities 383 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:29.799 between men and women and trying to solve like all 384 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:37.400 of these complex social problems fertility, pair bonding, alleviating tribal conflicts, 385 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:40.519 ameliorating tribal conflicts, so on and so forth. 386 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:43.200 And so on. 387 00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.599 The one hand, you know, qualitatively has it different is 388 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:50.759 part of this inversion the wrong people or have become 389 00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:53.200 the being counters. Being counting is kind of a womanly thing, 390 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:55.119 and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, like 391 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:58.359 you know they mind the domestic life. You know, they're 392 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:02.720 very fastidious details in that manner. They make up eighty 393 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:08.599 percent of automestic spending, like that's their domain. That's a 394 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:12.240 qualitative difference. But now that it's also I was going 395 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:16.519 to say this before, it's also much more egotistical, and 396 00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:20.079 we might as well say egotistical pejoratively egotism. I mean 397 00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:22.039 we might as well say when I really, when I 398 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:25.200 talk about individualism in the book, it's probably better to 399 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:33.720 say egotism and extreme radical egotism, which is all about, well, 400 00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:37.000 ultimately like you're not really interfacing with direct reality because 401 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.559 you're interfacing first with this buffer of your own self 402 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:46.640 aggrandizing bullshit, which the contemporary version of individualism is just 403 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:50.119 like constantly throwing It's like a guy just always throwing 404 00:25:50.119 --> 00:25:52.559 gasoline on the fire so you can come up with 405 00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:56.200 ever more insane cope, like this guy Will Stancil on Twitter. 406 00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.160 I don't know if you've been watching him. It's like 407 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.920 it's like we're going on a full business week of 408 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:04.640 this and all you're watching is just egotism. 409 00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:11.279 Yeah, yeah, it's it's remarkable. Well, let's let's talk about this. 410 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.640 Because we can talk about individualism, we can talk about anarchism, 411 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:20.240 but what it crosses over and in your personal life, 412 00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:25.240 I mean, that can cause enough problems, especially relationship wise 413 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:29.880 with your family. But let's cross over into the political. Now, 414 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:34.240 when that crosses over into the political, where do we 415 00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:37.279 end up? What's the path down that road? 416 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:43.839 Yeah, well, anarchism is one, you know, expressly political manifestation. 417 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:46.759 I have a very small I would say, like maybe 418 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:52.960 sub ten percent sympathy for anarchism, but it's not morally 419 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:55.680 related to what you typically see from anarchists. I mean, 420 00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:59.400 most people I think have a It's why we like vigilantes, 421 00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:03.759 the punisher, the batman, because innately, we all, especially as conservatives, 422 00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:08.079 I think, have a distrust of society. We have a 423 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:10.599 distrust of large groups. We have distrust of things that 424 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:13.720 we can't see, smell, taste, touch, hold a cant accountable, 425 00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:17.000 so on and so forth, for better or for worse, 426 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:21.400 and gosh, I don't know where my brain is today. 427 00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:24.440 But anyway, So the point about anarchism, right, so it's 428 00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:26.359 it's a little tougher for conservatives, or maybe it's a 429 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:28.400 little easier for conservatives. That's what I was getting at. 430 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:34.240 But nonetheless, like political anarchism, it's it's distinct from individualism, 431 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:37.559 and that I think it is more specifically about kind 432 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:43.720 of you know, the Ed Dutton mutational loads, spiteful, mutant, sexual, 433 00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:47.680 deviant situation. Like at bottom, it seems to me that 434 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:54.319 anarchism politically is just about protection of I don't know 435 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:57.079 what words I can use on your show. I don't 436 00:27:57.079 --> 00:28:00.400 care the common pizza types. Right, So it's like it's 437 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:04.000 effectively like a political organization for pedophiles. I don't think 438 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:06.920 there's anything more meaningful to anarchism about that. But then 439 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:09.039 again again it's like, well, how do you even have 440 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.799 like a political block of pedophiles be party participating in 441 00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:15.640 your democratic society. Well, I think that you have this 442 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:24.079 continual radical liberation. I don't know if individualism is related 443 00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:28.359 to this, but certainly the criminal as being elevated, you know, 444 00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:32.000 into a higher moral position than you know, people who 445 00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:34.519 enforced the law or people who simply follow the law 446 00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:37.359 might not be related to individualism per se, but it's 447 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:40.400 you know, this cascading decay of American society. 448 00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.480 Well, it's a it's a tool I mean, if we're 449 00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:44.319 going to talk about Sam Francis, we can talk about 450 00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:47.839 a narco tyranny. And I know a lot of I 451 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:50.400 know a lot of anarchists, especially a narco capitalists, who 452 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:53.079 absolutely hate that term because you know, it seeks to 453 00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:59.119 you know, it makes anarchy look bad. And historically it's 454 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:01.039 let's talk about the Spanish Civil War. I could do 455 00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:04.920 that for ten to twelve hours. Okay. When I think 456 00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.960 of anarchism, I think of the Spanish Civil War, digging it, 457 00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:12.960 disint turning nuns and priests. But when you look at 458 00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:19.960 a society where basically the people in charge are off 459 00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:23.319 doing whatever they're doing, like you were just mentioning, but 460 00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:27.480 they're allowing they can only get away with that, doing 461 00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:32.079 what they're doing by unleashing the worst dregs of society 462 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:35.640 upon the good people and telling the good people they 463 00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:40.880 can't protect themselves from the dregs of society. And then 464 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.920 if the drugs of society do something really horrible, they 465 00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:47.240 don't even just like this cop that just these cops 466 00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:50.319 that got jumped in New York a couple of days ago, 467 00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:54.920 and they were the people who did it. Migrants illegals 468 00:29:54.920 --> 00:29:59.079 were released on wind, noobail. It's all a tool, and 469 00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.400 it's anarchy for some and not for others, and definitely 470 00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:05.400 not the kind of anarchy that anarcho capital, a narcho 471 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:06.839 capitalist one, at least most of them. 472 00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:13.000 Yeah, there's a certain like just base conformism that we 473 00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:17.119 all have as like human people with souls that these 474 00:30:17.160 --> 00:30:20.680 people don't like. I mean that kind of Look. I 475 00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:23.359 went through an edged lord atheist phase, you know. I 476 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:26.000 mean I never spit on priests or did anything really terrible, 477 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:29.480 but you know, I probably said some untoward things towards 478 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:33.119 our Lord. But like that degree, like we're going to 479 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:38.039 dig up nuns, We're going to you know, desecrate graves, 480 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:44.319 We're gonna just try to innovate new ways to spit 481 00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:48.759 on the normal social institutions around us. That's really what 482 00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:52.880 anarchism tends to be a lot of times. It's it's 483 00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:56.480 that like lack of conformism, like that thoughtless conformism. I 484 00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:58.680 just go to church because it's because it's there, and 485 00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:02.079 I just love Jesus because that's what I do. Right 486 00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:05.759 like this, you're not even contemplating on it. But as 487 00:31:05.799 --> 00:31:08.440 far as like individualism and like what are the political 488 00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:14.119 consequences of that, well, I think by and large, I 489 00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:19.559 think the two biggest outcomes are depoliticization, right, because what 490 00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:24.880 if you're an egotist. The kind of persuasive filter that 491 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.759 ultimately matters is like, oh, does this titillate me, does 492 00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:29.799 this interest me? Does this speak to me? Does this 493 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.599 have an immediate application to my my life world as 494 00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:38.440 I perceive it? Whereas like, really political action is like extroverted. 495 00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:42.240 It's about looking at other people, looking at the problems 496 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:45.519 of other people in society. It's fundamentally, I mean, real 497 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.880 politics is extraversion. I don't want I don't want to 498 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:51.240 use psychiatric language and abuse it that way. You know 499 00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:54.960 what I mean, You're not in an agreement. So on 500 00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:59.039 one hand it's it's depoliticization, and then obviously on the 501 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:04.480 other hand it's like it's extreme, well not just identity 502 00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:07.480 politics you could say would be part of it, maybe counterintuitively, 503 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:11.240 but also like single issue voting, like all this wacky 504 00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:16.039 stuff like I only care about voting laws or whatever. 505 00:32:16.119 --> 00:32:20.599 I mean, as opposed to like nationalist folkish politics, where 506 00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:23.640 it's like, well, everything is a political question, everything has 507 00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:25.680 to be addressed politically, and we're going to have a 508 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.799 vehicle to put people in those places to do that, right, 509 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:32.960 like the individuals who are part of the collective and 510 00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:35.640 see them as selves as such and then can function 511 00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:39.119 as individuals in service of the collective. You know, that's 512 00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:42.640 like again part of maybe that's why it's better to 513 00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:46.640 say egotism, because ultimately being an individual is a good thing. 514 00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:51.799 It's who we are, it's our tradition. We couldn't really 515 00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:55.519 abandon it if we tried, and so fundamentally, what's different 516 00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:03.319 is this profoundly psychological dimension to modern life. You have 517 00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:10.240 to have justifications for everything. You know, everything's personalized. You're 518 00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.960 encouraged to make everything your self, and that for a 519 00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:15.279 lot of people that means they're politics too, which is 520 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:16.119 not always a good thing. 521 00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:24.240 I still engage with libertarians online. I know, I'm a masochist, 522 00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:26.559 and you know, one the other day was like, oh, 523 00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:29.160 so you know, what's a bigger what's a bigger issue 524 00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:32.839 than economics? And you know, one of my friends posted up, 525 00:33:33.559 --> 00:33:36.759 you know, drag queens from Weimar and drag queens now 526 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:40.279 and he's like, oh, oh, I'm scared of the Oh 527 00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:42.200 I'm supposed to be scared of the men dressing up 528 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:46.039 like women. And that's just that's exactly what it is. 529 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:48.720 It's the meme of Rome falling, and you know the 530 00:33:48.759 --> 00:33:50.960 guy saying, oh, how does this affect me personally? 531 00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:57.599 But it does. It perfects you profoundly personally. I have 532 00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:00.799 a working theory. It's not I'm not totally Maybe I 533 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:02.400 shouldn't bring it to you, but I'll do it anyway. 534 00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.640 It has a lot to do with the explicitly property 535 00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:13.440 focused tradition in I think the Western economic auvoir. If 536 00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:17.199 you want to say this is you know, people like 537 00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:19.719 me who came up six seven years ago when like 538 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:23.960 the nas bole thing was popular. And the reason why 539 00:34:24.039 --> 00:34:27.599 like people like Keith Woods and whoever are constantly fighting 540 00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:33.239 these accusations of communism is because I think the the 541 00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:38.079 aspect of Western political society, which is kind of kind 542 00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:43.280 of like libertarians, but not not strictly limited to them. 543 00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:47.440 The kinds that think of well, they think of America. 544 00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:50.559 What makes America great is its economy. So ultimately there's 545 00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:56.960 this extreme economic preference or privilege over privileging. But they 546 00:34:56.960 --> 00:34:59.199 look at like Adam Smith, and they look at how 547 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:02.639 we solved the issues of property in the Western canon 548 00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:06.320 as being like definitive to who we are. And you know, 549 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:09.320 I have a different temperament I actually, I mean outside 550 00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:11.599 of like toothbrushes and things like that, I kind of 551 00:35:11.639 --> 00:35:14.880 don't care so much about property. You kind of figured 552 00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:17.519 those things out, like I don't know, maybe because I 553 00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:18.760 in another life I was a musician. 554 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:20.639 Well you know, you know what an anarcho capitalist is 555 00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:22.159 going to say, Oh, so you don't mind if I 556 00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:23.199 move into your apartment? 557 00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:26.199 Right, well, and are narco capitalists don't mind if they 558 00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:29.519 move migrants into my apartment? So like fundamentally, you. 559 00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:32.719 Know, yeah, really they were so many of them really 560 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:35.880 need to go fuck themselves. I mean, I mean, I 561 00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:38.360 saw I was going back and forth with a guy 562 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:42.119 today who was like, like, debate me on Israel. Debate 563 00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:45.199 me on Israel, Debate me on Israel, because I'm like, oh, 564 00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:46.960 I mean, I know the history of Israel and I 565 00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:49.920 know how it was founded and out of the opinion 566 00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:51.800 if you found something on terrorism, you're always going to 567 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:55.880 have terrorism there. So anyway, but then what did I 568 00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:58.119 what do you find when you go into his tweets 569 00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:02.920 open borders, free trade, and then you know, well, do 570 00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:05.760 you feel the same way about Israel. I mean, so 571 00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:09.639 it's like these libertarian types, they're just oh, well, yeah, 572 00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:12.320 if I say we shouldn't have open borders, that means 573 00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:14.840 that I worship the border patrol, and that means that 574 00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:21.199 I'm a boot liquor whatever did I. 575 00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:26.960 Well, yeah, there's They're anachronistic. It's one of the like 576 00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:32.159 most BTFO political ideologies post twenty fifteen, with communism as 577 00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:37.360 a very close second. But ultimately these are materialists, which 578 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:40.639 I think is related to egotism, which is related to 579 00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:44.599 this obsession with private property mine, you know, delineation of 580 00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:51.400 what is mine, this this over elaborated legal artifice to 581 00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:56.119 define what is mine. I mean, ultimately, in a folkish setting, 582 00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:00.960 these questions answered themselves right, Like my if I leave 583 00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:04.079 my shirt at my brother's place, like there's not going 584 00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:07.239 to be World War three because my property, he's holding 585 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.519 my property. It's like it's whatever, I'll see him next week. 586 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:13.920 It's not the end of the world. Because I think 587 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:22.239 also there's a certain assumption in a folkish, nationalistic America 588 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:25.960 first society of like, hey man, I love you, you know, 589 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:28.760 like we're related to each other, we come from the 590 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:33.760 same place, probably even literally, but metaphorically, you know, in 591 00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:37.320 terms of the grand myth man myths that animate our lives, 592 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:43.199 like we're the same and these types of nerdish economic 593 00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:46.960 questions which do need to be solved and at complex societies, 594 00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:49.119 obviously you need to think about those kinds of things. 595 00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:54.320 But it's a fixation. It has a lot to do 596 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:57.679 with paranoia, I think all of Once we start highlighting 597 00:37:57.719 --> 00:38:01.159 these psychological factors, the types of people become very clear 598 00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:02.159 who they are. 599 00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:08.440 Well, you use the term sociopathy and the header there 600 00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:13.559 under individualism, anarchism, and sociopathy. So when you use sociopathy, 601 00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:14.400 how are you using it? 602 00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:18.079 Uh? Yeah, that's so. It's one of these funny psychology 603 00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:22.360 words that has a million definitions. I gave my own 604 00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:26.559 loose ish definition in the book. I actually don't have 605 00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:27.719 it in front of me, so I don't remember what 606 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:29.199 I said. Do you have it? 607 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:32.639 Yeah, I'm looking for it right now. I can't find it, 608 00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:34.760 But go on, I'll I'll see if I can. I 609 00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:35.400 can spot it. 610 00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:38.639 The main thrust, because it's one of those things that 611 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:43.079 like people confuse with psychopathy, right, and you know there's 612 00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:47.280 there These are very poorly defined concepts, yet there they 613 00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:50.559 do stand for something, and it means something when you 614 00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:54.880 use them. Psychopathy effectively, we're talking about, you know, in 615 00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:59.639 loose colloquial terms, we're talking about the most dangerous, violent, abrasive, 616 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.519 non conforming members of society. 617 00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:05.440 Yeah, you have here, Okay, So it says sociopathy as 618 00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:08.480 a concept is poorly defined within the disciplines of psychiatry 619 00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:12.360 and psychology, and, owing to its operational weakness, is greatly 620 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:16.199 abused by the late public and sadly professionals especially often 621 00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.559 complated with other somewhat nebulously defined terms such as anti 622 00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:24.679 social and psychopath. Here, sociopath should be understood as an 623 00:39:24.679 --> 00:39:28.880 individual with an impoverished social feeling, often exhibited by the 624 00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:37.360 following characteristics impulsivity, weak ego defenses, narcissism, irresponsibility, callousness, and 625 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:39.559 attachment related anxiety. 626 00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:45.119 Yeah, I think that covers it, because, if you want 627 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:50.320 to think in a congenital sense, sociopathy very small representation 628 00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:54.840 in the overall population, not a lot of natural sociopaths, 629 00:39:56.039 --> 00:40:01.360 But we're mass producing people due to this intention to 630 00:40:01.400 --> 00:40:05.079 destroy the family, destroy the community, destroy the nation, religion, borders, 631 00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:07.199 so on and so forth. I mean, if you encourage 632 00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:09.280 people to get divorced. If you encourage people to be 633 00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:14.639 sexually liberated, then that naturally has the consequence of weakening 634 00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:19.480 the social unit we call the family. Children grow up 635 00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:22.719 with fewer resources. Also think of like the crazy psychiatry 636 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:27.239 fads and child rearing fads over the last hundred years. 637 00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.400 Each one's kind of like perverse and dysfunctional in his 638 00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:32.880 own unique way from the one that came before it. 639 00:40:32.920 --> 00:40:35.280 So like, for example, like kids don't sleep with their parents. 640 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:41.320 You know, you don't nurse the children, you don't you 641 00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:44.679 intentionally ignore the children. And some of these have caveats 642 00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:47.320 like it's appropriate at certain times, under certain conditions for 643 00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:50.280 certain people, et cetera, et cetera. But that's not how 644 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:53.639 America works, that's not how marketing works. And an idea 645 00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:57.320 is brought to people and we try to do this 646 00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:00.159 one size fits all thing, which is not good. You 647 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:04.199 get people with these attachment related disorders. Fundamentally, what that 648 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:09.440 means is while they didn't spend a lot of physical 649 00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:15.480 time with mom and dad, they are on a hormonal, 650 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:24.920 neurological probably other levels, malnourished, underdeveloped, and there's a very 651 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:29.679 limited window that infants and small children have to get 652 00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:35.119 these resources, especially when it comes to social development. It's 653 00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:40.199 really like age five, age six, and the trend over 654 00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:44.159 the last fifteen years is to shove as many screens 655 00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:48.360 and images and highly stimulating things at ever younger children, 656 00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:51.639 so they're not socializing with people anyway. Then they go 657 00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:55.000 through a crazy education system that's racially diverse, and blah 658 00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:57.079 blah blah blah blah. What do you have. You have 659 00:41:57.119 --> 00:41:59.440 people who don't know how to develop relationships, who don't 660 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:03.480 actually on the structural level of their brain. They can't 661 00:42:03.559 --> 00:42:06.280 look at you and see you as a person with 662 00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:09.199 a soul like that. They need to respect the dignity 663 00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:11.320 of like all of these things that are kind of 664 00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:15.159 I think second nature to people who maybe are older, 665 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:17.840 grew up with a different way of life, had more 666 00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:25.280 like put in more rounds interacting with people. So you 667 00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:28.239 have this mass like phenomenon of kind of like an 668 00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:33.679 artificial sociopathy. People are constantly to invoke the transactional thing 669 00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:37.360 from earlier. They're constantly looking at other people as means 670 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:41.920 to some other end. They are in a fundamentally exploitative 671 00:42:42.559 --> 00:42:48.320 mode of social interaction, and they are themselves very distressed 672 00:42:48.679 --> 00:42:52.599 and suffering. Often to the point of some kind of 673 00:42:52.639 --> 00:43:01.159 addiction or otherwise impairment, fixation, fetish, what have you? Sex, politics, food, tattoos, 674 00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:06.360 all of the above the thing. And I'll close it 675 00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:11.159 off on this. I've got gab fever all night. I apologize, Like, 676 00:43:11.159 --> 00:43:13.679 like I said, I'm a younger guy. I turned thirty eight. 677 00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:17.039 It was very common still is, but when I was younger, 678 00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:22.920 like normal millennial discourse is is this kind of neurotic 679 00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:25.880 of like am I normal? Can you? Can you affirm 680 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:28.760 that I'm normal? Are you secretly a sociopath? This paranoia 681 00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:31.800 of like what laundry list of mental disorders do you have? 682 00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:34.199 How quickly can I find it out? And then what 683 00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:35.880 are we going to do about it? You know? For 684 00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:37.480 some people will be like, let me find out so 685 00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:39.639 I can avoid you, and for other people it's like, 686 00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:43.199 let me find out so that I can never get 687 00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:49.519 away from you, right Like anyway, point being the sociopathy 688 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.400 like is just the norm almost. 689 00:43:55.159 --> 00:43:58.159 It also seems a lot of people point out that 690 00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:02.719 so many people these days there when they refer to truth, 691 00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:07.679 it's always something subjective, and it seems like if you're 692 00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:12.840 this radical individual, you know, this neoliberal kind of individual, 693 00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.559 your morality is going to be based around how anything 694 00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:21.119 affects you. You can't have a universal morality if everyone's 695 00:44:21.159 --> 00:44:21.880 an individual. 696 00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:27.079 You also can't have political organization if everyone's an individual. 697 00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:30.199 So this is even more meaningfully the ultimate political outcome 698 00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:37.679 of individualism. If all justifications, all explanations, any any rationalization 699 00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:41.400 you can offer has to come specifically from you, your 700 00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:45.039 specific circumstance of life, from the exact moment you were 701 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:47.719 born until exactly this moment. You can't have reference to 702 00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:51.400 anything else. Like you are atomized. You're one node, but 703 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:54.760 all of the circuitry around you has been like smashed 704 00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:57.599 with ambers, so you can't plug into the larger network. 705 00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:00.760 And that's very pernicious. I mean, ultimately, with that like 706 00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:05.400 type of lot, the question like how does this affect 707 00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.679 you personally? Like that is a persecutor's logic. That is, 708 00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:12.480 someone who that's friend enemy stuff like I don't talk 709 00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:14.599 to you or my brother or my friend or my 710 00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:18.159 neighbor like that. I get involved because I realized that 711 00:45:18.199 --> 00:45:20.960 we're part of the same thing, and there's not really 712 00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:24.880 a conflict or a contradiction between him as an individual 713 00:45:24.920 --> 00:45:29.360 and the social ecology that he's plugged into like this 714 00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:33.199 is a big problem with libertarians too, collectivism. Collectivism is 715 00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:37.119 like one of these still remaining boogie words in politics, 716 00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.840 and they only really see it with libertarians. But it's 717 00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:43.280 like it's again, it's it has to do with egotism, right, 718 00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:47.599 because there are always collectives. The type of social activity 719 00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:53.440 is ultimately a collectivist activity. So I mean all this 720 00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:58.519 spoils down to that. Jefferson Lee would say, as nationalists, 721 00:45:58.519 --> 00:46:02.480 the economic or the the the unit of society is 722 00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:05.920 actually the nation itself, the people, right. But in neoliberal society, 723 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:08.880 it's just you, not even your kids, not even your 724 00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:11.280 grandparents unless they want to blame you for things, shame 725 00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:11.880 you for things. 726 00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:18.360 But it seems that there is a group, and I 727 00:46:18.679 --> 00:46:22.639 think we know that pretty much down the middle when 728 00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:26.360 it comes to the most important things. You know, Republicans 729 00:46:26.360 --> 00:46:28.360 and Democrats are going to get together. I mean, if 730 00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:31.320 you're if you're having a vote on whether you know 731 00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:37.159 anti semitism is irrational and repugnant, everyone is going to 732 00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:40.079 vote for that. If it's a vote for war, everyone 733 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:42.599 is going to you know, there's going to be very 734 00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:45.880 few people who are going to to abstain or even 735 00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:50.360 say no. It's always issues that where it's like, oh, 736 00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:55.400 well it's like to like to financial systems or the 737 00:46:55.119 --> 00:46:57.880 two competing financial systems. Well, no, we're not going to 738 00:46:57.880 --> 00:46:59.800 cut taxes now. Yes, we're going to cut taxes now. 739 00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:03.320 It always seems to be like the things that do 740 00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:08.000 cause the most control or cause the most damage to 741 00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:15.400 the system and the people financially and bodily, war sending 742 00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:21.920 kids off to war for nothing. Those are right down 743 00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:26.559 the middle. Okay, everything's good, we've given you the you're 744 00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:30.719 allowed to fight about this here. But it's the whole 745 00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:33.960 elite theory thing too. You do have some people who 746 00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:36.559 get together, five hundred and thirty five of them, and 747 00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:39.719 then you know, stretch it out a little bit from there, 748 00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:45.840 who agree on things. But when everyone is a radical individual, 749 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:52.000 when everybody's a neoliberal individual, getting groups to get together 750 00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:59.679 to possibly push back or to even supplant what's existing 751 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:03.480 makes it impossible. It's like they it's like they designed 752 00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:06.119 the perfect system. If it was a hydrae, you wouldn't 753 00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:10.079 even know where to start cutting off heads because yeah, yeah, yeah, 754 00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:16.840 so yeah. The individualism thing also is a great tool 755 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:20.280 for them because there hundred and fifty million people can't 756 00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:24.239 organize against what is essentially probably what two thousand. 757 00:48:26.199 --> 00:48:27.960 Well, yeah, there's there's a lot of aspects to what 758 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:28.440 you just said. 759 00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:32.880 What was the devil? What was the angel devil saying 760 00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:38.800 that I did I say something that you that made you? No? 761 00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:42.039 I just well, just I always think because as the 762 00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:45.320 older I get, the less psychologically inclined I become, or 763 00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:46.639 in fact, I mean we should say, the more I 764 00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:51.639 think about these types of issues, the less psychology uh 765 00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:56.679 factors into my ultimate kind of analytical process. Not to 766 00:48:56.679 --> 00:49:01.480 say it's unimportant, because it's you know it, it's explicitly 767 00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:05.320 on a psychological battlefield that what you just said is 768 00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:08.880 being waged, right, is by putting you into just your 769 00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:13.239 body and blocking off all of the literally social resources 770 00:49:13.639 --> 00:49:15.960 that make us who we are, Like just on the 771 00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:21.639 small level, or been like with the group friends and 772 00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:26.079 then the chat ended or the friend group fell apart, 773 00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:28.719 or maybe you just like checked out for a little 774 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:32.719 while and you felt like dumber or like less sharp 775 00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:37.800 or less on your less like you normally are, because 776 00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.559 actually you're like plugged, You're like plugged into the Avengers. 777 00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:44.199 Like Okay, now I have plus fifteen IQ points because 778 00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:45.840 the guy next to me is a super genius and 779 00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:48.599 I've absorbed all of his knowledge, right, So, like, so 780 00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:52.760 much of what makes us great, even as individuals, are 781 00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:58.119 the relations that we have. And to impose this program 782 00:49:58.159 --> 00:50:01.920 of individualism is to impose this program of ultimately kind 783 00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:05.599 of psychologism, which makes us all prisoners of our own 784 00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:09.400 fears and anxieties, except for those of you know, people 785 00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:11.960 in the audience who are extroverts and not neurotic. You know, 786 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:15.280 I hate you. I hope you have a great life, 787 00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:17.639 but I hate you the rest of us. You know, 788 00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:22.559 it's it's this I'm imagining, like the guy on the 789 00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:25.880 train throwing the coal into the into the oven or whatever. 790 00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:28.400 Like you've just got it. It's just endless coal. You 791 00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:30.920 can just kind of keep like psychologically, you just have 792 00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:36.440 continual resources to harm yourself because life is difficult. Being 793 00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:38.559 in the body is weird. Nobody gets it right, But 794 00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:42.440 we all come from crazy circumstances. And there's a criminal, 795 00:50:42.519 --> 00:50:45.360 exploitative class at the top of everything. So it's not 796 00:50:45.559 --> 00:50:52.280 exactly you know, rosy pictures, rainbows things like that. However, 797 00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:55.639 there's no devil an angel. I just do like to 798 00:50:55.679 --> 00:50:59.320 emphasize that, you know, this is a program of containment. 799 00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:03.039 These are the parameters through which that gets achieved. And 800 00:51:03.119 --> 00:51:05.920 so yeah, like if you can't get a couple of 801 00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:11.199 people together to flyer or rally or protest or pass 802 00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:15.000 around some kind of petition, I mean those first barriers, 803 00:51:15.159 --> 00:51:17.400 and they're the most important bearers. A lot of the 804 00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:22.000 times are fundamentally psychological, Like seeing myself as a unit 805 00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:26.440 with Peter r. Kenonia's right, Like that's a psychological hurdle 806 00:51:26.639 --> 00:51:31.760 that you have to clear, not expecting. There's the joke 807 00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:36.840 about like you know the guy who like meets hangs 808 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:39.000 out with his cousin from like Norway or Denmark and 809 00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:41.320 then gets a venmo for like seventy eight cents because 810 00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:43.039 of half of the coffee you drink on the way 811 00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:45.840 to work together. Like that kind of like tit for 812 00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:47.800 tat am I going to get everything out of Peter 813 00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:50.480 that Peter is getting out of me. Like that's not 814 00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:56.840 a normal response. If we're a family of folk, we think, okay, 815 00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:59.639 we're gonna work all this out together. So yeah, I 816 00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:01.599 feel like I'm repeating myself a little bit, but I'll 817 00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:02.480 leave it a bet. 818 00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:07.039 People need to hear that. Let's finish on this what's chophobia. 819 00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:11.400 It's the hatred of the familiar, or fear of the familiar, 820 00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:18.440 maybe even disgust of the familiar. It's what every Midwesterner, 821 00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:22.199 every Midwestern eighteen year old, you know, just at a 822 00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:24.119 fresh out of college who moves to New York that 823 00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:27.159 I've ever met, That's what they're all like, Oh my god, 824 00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:30.880 Wyoming is so terrible. It's like, fuck you, I'll go 825 00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:37.400 there for in a second. Let's stright place. It's well, 826 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:39.960 I say, this is someone who suffers it. Right, Like, 827 00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:43.079 if you want to again, on psychological terms, what is acophobia, 828 00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:48.000 it's high trade openness. Right, you are a novelty oriented person. 829 00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:54.360 You buy your temperament, experience lower levels of disgust at 830 00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:59.480 unfamiliar or things that would typically that trigger discust. Right, 831 00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:03.840 feel less discussed, You're more inclined to experiment, try new things. 832 00:53:03.880 --> 00:53:07.960 You're more novelty seeking. You're probably less neurotic neurotic, meaning 833 00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:11.679 the intensity of negative emotions that you experienced. Like sometimes 834 00:53:11.679 --> 00:53:14.079 we think of neuroticism as just like self attacking, but 835 00:53:14.199 --> 00:53:17.760 it's more like how hot does the engine get when 836 00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:20.400 you're stressed? And if you're very neurotic, well, it gets 837 00:53:20.480 --> 00:53:22.960 very hot, very quickly, and it takes you a very 838 00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:26.920 long time or maybe never to totally decompress, not literally never. 839 00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:29.960 That would be like a very extreme case. Comorbidity is 840 00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:33.280 up to you, huh, but a certain type. But it's 841 00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:36.440 also of the condition that we've inherited. Especially I want 842 00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:41.760 to emphasize this, it's technologically facilitated. It is absolutely like 843 00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:46.039 you would not see the kind of Jesus Christ get 844 00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:49.360 me if there was not an ease of the ability 845 00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:52.079 to get the fuck out of town. So, you know, 846 00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:57.000 travel being the way that it is, these things encourage 847 00:53:57.199 --> 00:54:02.480 psychological tendencies that have pros and con You know, I 848 00:54:02.519 --> 00:54:07.000 love Peter Gabriel's album that's also his like I'm a 849 00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:11.360 third worldist, you know, screw Whitey album. But it's great 850 00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:14.119 and he's has a great ensemble of musicians and he's 851 00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:18.360 playing this kind of world style and it's interesting and 852 00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:26.079 it's cool, but you can't live there and uh yeah, 853 00:54:26.119 --> 00:54:28.719 I mean the flip side, I guess is auchophelia. And 854 00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:32.039 this might be like the conservative disease of too much 855 00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:37.239 veneration of tradition and too much kind of well to 856 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:40.719 be crass boot licking, right, like the extreme like a 857 00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:44.400 peliac is effectively the boot licker, and the extreme likegophobic, 858 00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:46.920 is going to be the you know, the race trader 859 00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:48.039 or just just the trader. 860 00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:51.800 It's funny that that came up because I was saying 861 00:54:51.880 --> 00:54:55.079 on Twitter the other day that like the town I 862 00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:58.199 live in there, I have friends who their families have 863 00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:01.480 been here for two hundred years and they they own 864 00:55:01.719 --> 00:55:05.000 their own land here, they owned businesses here, and even 865 00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:07.559 though you know, they went an hour and twenty minutes 866 00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:09.880 away to go to college, they came back and they 867 00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:12.519 knew they were going to come back because they were 868 00:55:12.559 --> 00:55:16.800 continuing a tradition and continuing continue well a legacy. And 869 00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:18.920 I think it's really interesting to find out that when 870 00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:21.119 you start talking about that to people and you're like, 871 00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:25.199 you know, it's not too late to start do that. Now, 872 00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:28.880 find a plot of land, find something, start building, you know, 873 00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:31.599 start living, you know, as Thomas seven seven seven says, 874 00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:36.639 start living historically and teaching, you know, teaching your progeny 875 00:55:36.679 --> 00:55:39.920 how to do that. And the amount of pushback that 876 00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:42.920 you can get from get from talking like that is 877 00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:45.079 just you know, what if I want my kid, what 878 00:55:45.159 --> 00:55:47.480 if my kid meets somebody you know from another state, 879 00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:49.079 you know, and they want to get married with someone 880 00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:53.159 from another state, Well, he or she can move there, 881 00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:56.679 you know, could move there if you have ten if 882 00:55:56.679 --> 00:55:58.800 you have ten acres, if you have twenty acres, Why 883 00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:01.400 would you want him to go buy a house. Just 884 00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:04.320 build a house on the property and you know, stay 885 00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:07.800 there and you know, build something and build a legacy 886 00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:10.760 of some sort when you when you look at Monticello 887 00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:13.159 and Mount Vernon in places like that, I mean, those 888 00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:17.719 were supposed to be legacies, and now they're museums. And 889 00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:20.880 I think Monticello is now the museums awoke of some sort. 890 00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:26.719 And I don't think that's aichophelia. I think that's just 891 00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:31.440 the way people have lived and kept order within society 892 00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:37.719 for hundreds and hundreds of years until until we this 893 00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:42.079 technological revolution, but also this individual revolution. 894 00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:45.960 The And they would certainly like to pain When I 895 00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:47.840 say they, I mean people who are opponents of our 896 00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:51.840 worldview would certainly try to paint that as I mean, 897 00:56:51.880 --> 00:56:54.440 they would take it a step further. Iphelic might be 898 00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:57.199 kind of a sort of polite way, still derogatory ultimately 899 00:56:57.239 --> 00:56:59.239 in this context, but they're going to take that to 900 00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:01.400 the next step. I mean, they're just going to accuse 901 00:57:01.480 --> 00:57:04.440 you of being like an in breeder, and then it 902 00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:13.360 immediately becomes some kind of dysgenic, disgusting thing, which ironically 903 00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:17.559 or humorously enough, is like the opposite. You know, the 904 00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:20.960 thing that they're instituting is very much what they're accusing 905 00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:24.639 us of trying to promote. I would just say one thing. 906 00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:26.719 I mean again, it's also part of the political program. 907 00:57:26.719 --> 00:57:29.920 If you de industrialize major parts of the country, it 908 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.280 becomes a less attractive place to live. And what happens 909 00:57:33.280 --> 00:57:36.320 to the people there. They get fat, they become addicts, 910 00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:38.360 they die early, They beat the shit out of their 911 00:57:38.440 --> 00:57:42.559 kids and their wives, They fucking kill people. They turned 912 00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:45.599 the local law enforcement into just bullshit, They turned the 913 00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:49.519 court system into everything decays, and young people grew up, 914 00:57:49.519 --> 00:57:52.880 and that young people who naturally have an inclination to 915 00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:58.559 explore and persevere and test boundaries and are very much 916 00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:01.119 bored with the familiar. Actually, in the climate that we're in, 917 00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:04.840 what else are they supposed to feel when they look 918 00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:07.239 at the town they grew up in and know people 919 00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:11.760 either leave or they die. That's you know, that's that's 920 00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:16.119 a political program. And that's also something I think people 921 00:58:16.159 --> 00:58:17.280 don't understand all that. Well. 922 00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:21.159 I talked to friends and I'm like, you know, family, 923 00:58:21.199 --> 00:58:22.679 I wish I would have grown up in a family 924 00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:25.199 that would have put such a great importance on family 925 00:58:25.280 --> 00:58:29.480 and the family, the family, land and everything. My my grandmother, 926 00:58:29.960 --> 00:58:32.719 my grandparents had land in Puerto Rico that could have 927 00:58:32.719 --> 00:58:35.519 been handed down, but of course it got sold off 928 00:58:35.559 --> 00:58:38.679 like all boomers do and everything like that. I didn't 929 00:58:38.679 --> 00:58:42.079 want the money. I wanted, you know, I wanted the legacy. 930 00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:46.800 But the I'm talking to a friend of mine and 931 00:58:46.840 --> 00:58:49.360 saying how important family is, like, well, my parents were 932 00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:51.639 shiit my you know, my mother, my mother was a 933 00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:55.000 piece of shit. And it's like, well, why why do 934 00:58:55.079 --> 00:58:57.639 you think there was some kind of external circumstance. Do 935 00:58:57.679 --> 00:59:01.639 you think they grew up in a in a society 936 00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:06.480 that gave them this mentality that just poison their food, 937 00:59:06.559 --> 00:59:09.159 did all this stuff to them that made them become 938 00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:12.840 become like that? You know, it can all start with you, 939 00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:15.159 And I mean that's yeah. 940 00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:17.440 I don't know if it's trauma induced I hate to 941 00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:22.800 use that word, but or if it's more akin to 942 00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:28.119 this individualism and egotism we're talking about. But you know, like, 943 00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:31.400 I not to get too personal. I mean, I love 944 00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:33.840 my family. I'm glad I had the family that I had. 945 00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:35.239 I'm glad I grew up where I grew up. 946 00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:35.960 I like my. 947 00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:38.760 Life, but it wasn't the greatest situation. But I always 948 00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:40.760 felt and this is something I saw reflected in the 949 00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:42.800 people who grew up around me, was that at a 950 00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:46.199 certain age, you look at the people around you as 951 00:59:46.400 --> 00:59:52.119 people who have had to answer the same challenges of 952 00:59:52.199 --> 00:59:55.039 life that you have to answer, and then you come 953 00:59:55.079 --> 00:59:59.079 to understand them in a more human way. I look 954 00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:01.559 back on my parent parents, and of all the things 955 01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:05.599 I'm dissatisfied with now as an adult, I think back, well, 956 01:00:05.599 --> 01:00:10.320 when they were my age, well, they probably thought the 957 01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:14.719 whole world was like constantly on the precipice of nuclear abomination, 958 01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:18.119 you know, like they row They really thought that right 959 01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:21.079 for decades, they really thought that it was a real thing. 960 01:00:21.719 --> 01:00:25.039 And before that everyone they knew had fucking pieces of 961 01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:30.199 them blown off in Vietnam or Korea or w W two. Uh. 962 01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:34.559 And before that, maybe they grew up poor, and maybe 963 01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:38.000 their parents lived through the there lived through the Great Depression. 964 01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:40.719 Maybe they were immigrants and they came here and they 965 01:00:40.719 --> 01:00:44.880 had all kinds of like generally speaking, you know, like 966 01:00:44.920 --> 01:00:48.480 when when lefties talked about how awful and brutish and 967 01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:53.159 violent and terrible history has been, they're right, it's it's 968 01:00:53.199 --> 01:00:54.320 a it's a rough go. 969 01:00:54.679 --> 01:00:54.840 You know. 970 01:00:54.920 --> 01:00:57.920 The twentieth century was literally us just like, how do 971 01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:00.920 we fucking kill more? How do we kill more European people? 972 01:01:01.199 --> 01:01:08.519 Industrial baby, let's do it. Your parents inherited hellscape, grandparents 973 01:01:08.559 --> 01:01:12.079 inherited hellescape, your great grandparents. We've actually, maybe for only 974 01:01:12.119 --> 01:01:15.559 a couple of generations, have kind of had it pretty 975 01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:17.199 good where you know, you didn't have to go through 976 01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:19.639 child labor, you didn't have to like all the things 977 01:01:19.800 --> 01:01:23.079 you could. You had an adolescence. That was the thing. 978 01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:25.519 One hundred years ago, there was no there was no 979 01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:28.280 idea of let kids be kids. Oh don't you know, 980 01:01:28.360 --> 01:01:30.559 don't give little timmy too much homework. There was that 981 01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:33.960 idea did not exist. Turn of the century. Twentieth century 982 01:01:34.039 --> 01:01:38.039 British psychiatry was telling parents just short of beat your kids, 983 01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:39.719 it's good for them. 984 01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:40.440 Right. 985 01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:44.440 So this is all a very different thing, and maybe 986 01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:46.679 I'm willing to bet it has more to do with 987 01:01:46.760 --> 01:01:50.880 the psychological dimensions of suffering and trauma that people don't 988 01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:54.639 look at these prior generations, see that humanity and want 989 01:01:54.679 --> 01:01:57.880 to be the torch bear for that tradition. That's where 990 01:01:57.880 --> 01:01:59.840 I ended up, That's where most of the people I 991 01:01:59.920 --> 01:02:03.440 know ended up. And if you want to end up 992 01:02:03.480 --> 01:02:06.639 there too, I think logical questions cool. 993 01:02:06.679 --> 01:02:09.239 All right, remind everybody where they can find your stuff again, 994 01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:10.320 and I'll end the end. 995 01:02:10.199 --> 01:02:14.719 This Jneil dot substack dot com. That's for the Substack 996 01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:21.079 on YouTube, Psychopolitics on X, Psychopolitics with the K, and 997 01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:24.239 then check out Imperium Press for American extremists, and then 998 01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:27.880 probably in like three weeks understanding conspiracy theories. And thank 999 01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:30.159 you again so much, Peter for your patience and your 1000 01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:30.880 your invitation. 1001 01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:34.360 No problem, and come back real soon and we'll talk 1002 01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:39.360 about narratives or something like that. Absolutely, thank you. Josh. 1003 01:02:39.800 --> 01:02:42.280 I want to welcome everyone back to the Peakingana Show. 1004 01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:49.400 Josh Neil is back after after a long hiatus. What's happening, Josh. 1005 01:02:48.039 --> 01:02:50.320 Yeah, it's good to be back. I appreciate the invitation. 1006 01:02:52.079 --> 01:02:54.119 As I was saying to you before we went live, 1007 01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:55.760 this is live, I think. 1008 01:02:56.239 --> 01:02:58.960 Yeah, well, now we're we're recording, we're just hanging out 1009 01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:01.360 you Nick, As. 1010 01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:03.079 I was saying before I had to what's the saying, 1011 01:03:03.079 --> 01:03:05.559 I had to get my ducks in a row, and 1012 01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:09.559 I did and it was good because it helped me 1013 01:03:09.599 --> 01:03:12.360 put a lot of things into focus. And I feel like. 1014 01:03:13.880 --> 01:03:14.239 A lot of my. 1015 01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:19.360 Energy in this space, this community has gotten like laser focused, 1016 01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:22.559 much narrower, much more refined. Like I'm so much happier 1017 01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:25.639 with my writing. And that's obviously what we're here to 1018 01:03:25.639 --> 01:03:27.599 talk about. So, yeah, thanks for asking me on. 1019 01:03:28.199 --> 01:03:33.920 Yeah, absolutely so. I've done as much as I can 1020 01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:41.239 to stay away from this topic in my in my episodes, 1021 01:03:41.559 --> 01:03:44.559 in my sub stack, I bring it up here and there. 1022 01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:48.800 But the thing I liked about and we're talking about 1023 01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:52.400 the woke, right, something that it looks like James Lindsay 1024 01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:54.639 might have came up with, and you know, and then 1025 01:03:54.880 --> 01:03:57.599 a bunch of other midwits are running with like Constantine 1026 01:03:57.639 --> 01:04:01.920 kissing and people like that. And the reason I decided 1027 01:04:01.960 --> 01:04:04.199 I wanted to talk about it is because after I 1028 01:04:04.239 --> 01:04:09.519 read your substacle about it that UNS picked up. I was, 1029 01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:12.199 you come at it from a completely different angle than 1030 01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:14.760 most people. Most people are like here, You're coming at 1031 01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:17.599 it from actually a historical angle and comparing it to 1032 01:04:17.639 --> 01:04:21.599 something that's happened in the past. So what was what 1033 01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:23.880 was your reaction the first time you heard the term 1034 01:04:24.119 --> 01:04:24.679 woke right? 1035 01:04:27.079 --> 01:04:29.440 Well, it made me think of and I wrote this 1036 01:04:29.480 --> 01:04:31.920 in the essay, but it made me think of when 1037 01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:36.639 people started using SJW against Trump people back in the day. 1038 01:04:37.599 --> 01:04:40.840 I mean I was, I'm you know, we're both not 1039 01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:44.760 spring chickens per se. We were both like fully formed 1040 01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:47.519 adults ten years ago. So we have a really good 1041 01:04:47.559 --> 01:04:51.519 memory of like who the players were, what ideas were happening, 1042 01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:54.920 where the culture was moving. And you know, I wasn't 1043 01:04:54.960 --> 01:04:59.239 alt right or a nationalist or anything until after basically 1044 01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:02.039 Election Day twenty sixteen, but I was online and I 1045 01:05:02.079 --> 01:05:04.199 followed all the memes. I followed all the stuff that 1046 01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:08.840 kind of trickled upwards to YouTube and like Stefan Molyneux 1047 01:05:09.159 --> 01:05:12.679 and people like that and or Scott Adams, and so 1048 01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:18.280 I remember the anti SJW moment. I guess some people 1049 01:05:18.280 --> 01:05:20.119 who were plugged into gamer gate would say, you know, 1050 01:05:20.159 --> 01:05:22.559 it had something to do with that too, And so 1051 01:05:22.599 --> 01:05:24.960 I remember, like for a couple of years, like twenty 1052 01:05:25.039 --> 01:05:29.039 ten to twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, like social justice, social 1053 01:05:29.159 --> 01:05:32.239 justice sat, social justice Warrior. And then the moment that 1054 01:05:32.280 --> 01:05:35.519 there was the Trump right came in and was starting 1055 01:05:35.519 --> 01:05:38.119 to really be effective pushing back against all of the 1056 01:05:39.079 --> 01:05:43.920 crazy late Obama era politics. Suddenly that got turned around 1057 01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:47.400 on people like me who were just like, you know, 1058 01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:49.840 I thought I was just being like a rational, normal person, 1059 01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:53.119 like enormy with like my head on a swivel. But 1060 01:05:53.159 --> 01:05:55.159 now suddenly it's like, oh, now we're going to turn 1061 01:05:55.239 --> 01:05:59.039 this this rhetoric back around on you, because now we've 1062 01:05:59.079 --> 01:06:02.920 got to control you, like like we've scapegoaded all these 1063 01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:05.639 people who are not out and now you're the problem, 1064 01:06:05.719 --> 01:06:07.079 and so we're gonna throw it at you. So it 1065 01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:12.079 made me think of when SJW was was turned on 1066 01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:15.599 the right wing. And so my first thought after that, 1067 01:06:15.719 --> 01:06:17.760 or my second thought, I guess, was just like, Okay, 1068 01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:20.480 this is just a slur, Like this is very obviously 1069 01:06:20.519 --> 01:06:24.679 a smear to again kind of go after the harder 1070 01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:27.679 wing of the Trump right, but also to go after 1071 01:06:28.280 --> 01:06:34.079 like real nationalists, real identitarians, or real conservatives, real Christians, 1072 01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:38.320 basically people with a spine and the backbone who are 1073 01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:40.199 willing to call a spade a spade and I'm not 1074 01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:44.480 going to play euphemistic word games and step around the 1075 01:06:44.519 --> 01:06:48.559 thorny issues. So those were my first thoughts, and then 1076 01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:51.840 I also kind of thought it wouldn't stick. But he 1077 01:06:52.039 --> 01:06:54.800 but James Lindsay has like really like a dog with 1078 01:06:54.880 --> 01:06:57.679 a bone, he just keeps He's kept putting it back 1079 01:06:57.719 --> 01:07:00.719 out there to the point where he starts building like 1080 01:07:00.760 --> 01:07:04.519 a coalition with that the triggeronometry people. And then when 1081 01:07:04.519 --> 01:07:06.760 that I guess this would have been a week ago, 1082 01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:09.719 maybe a week in a day, when that clip went 1083 01:07:09.840 --> 01:07:12.920 on Twitter, like there's a light bulb moment, I was like, Oh, 1084 01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:15.719 this is because he actually explained what he meant by 1085 01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:20.239 woke right. He gave this whole sort of counter narrative 1086 01:07:21.079 --> 01:07:24.679 against our worldview. And I was like, oh, I know 1087 01:07:24.760 --> 01:07:28.000 what you're doing now, Like you're actually trying to put 1088 01:07:28.119 --> 01:07:32.760 forth this other worldview and this this is familiar. I've 1089 01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:33.880 seen this movie before. 1090 01:07:35.840 --> 01:07:38.639 What I thought is most interesting about it was it 1091 01:07:38.719 --> 01:07:43.119 was coming from somebody and then adopted by other people 1092 01:07:43.320 --> 01:07:47.559 who were I didn't leave the left. The left left 1093 01:07:47.639 --> 01:07:54.239 meet people and you Normally when something like this happens, 1094 01:07:54.559 --> 01:07:58.519 it's usually the quote unquote right wing that's doing it. 1095 01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:02.280 You know, Joanah Goldberg out liberal fascism or something like that. 1096 01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:06.239 So he can accuse anybody who's you know, to the 1097 01:08:06.400 --> 01:08:13.039 right of eleanor Roosevelt of being a fascist. And yeah, 1098 01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:15.000 that's what I saw. It's like, okay, so this is 1099 01:08:15.079 --> 01:08:24.439 like IDW adjacent you know, intellectual dork web people adjacent 1100 01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:29.279 who And the first thing I thought was Lindsey, he's 1101 01:08:29.319 --> 01:08:34.079 just grasping because he's kind of irrelevant. He's blown his 1102 01:08:34.199 --> 01:08:37.680 load on what he does. Okay, you explain to a 1103 01:08:37.680 --> 01:08:42.319 bunch of people who are too you know, are too 1104 01:08:42.319 --> 01:08:45.079 offended by Paul Gottfried to go read what he wrote 1105 01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:47.399 twenty five years ago where he could tell you exactly 1106 01:08:47.399 --> 01:08:50.079 what this whole woke stuff is. And he was a 1107 01:08:50.119 --> 01:08:54.800 prophet back then, and he's writing two right wingers. But 1108 01:08:54.920 --> 01:08:58.560 you know, right wingers always want the approval of the left. 1109 01:08:58.600 --> 01:09:00.960 They don't want the approval of anybody to their right, 1110 01:09:01.239 --> 01:09:04.840 because you know that those are just Nazis. But yeah, 1111 01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:09.079 that was the thing that it was. These the those left, 1112 01:09:09.399 --> 01:09:15.279 the left left me people. You cannot entertain them, you 1113 01:09:15.359 --> 01:09:19.760 cannot give them the time of day, you cannot platform them. 1114 01:09:20.159 --> 01:09:22.439 They will always stab you in the back I don't 1115 01:09:22.680 --> 01:09:25.239 how the fuck people don't know this. I did that 1116 01:09:25.279 --> 01:09:28.720 with somebody with like one specific person in the past, 1117 01:09:29.199 --> 01:09:32.520 one specific person I did that with in my libertarian days, 1118 01:09:32.800 --> 01:09:37.479 and I learned deleted all those episodes, repented, and it's like, 1119 01:09:37.560 --> 01:09:39.399 it's not going to happen if I have a leftist on, 1120 01:09:39.680 --> 01:09:41.920 It's going to be a leftist who's not here to 1121 01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:45.119 talk about leftism or rightism. They're an expert on like 1122 01:09:45.279 --> 01:09:49.439 Ukraine or something like that. You know, So, isn't it weird? 1123 01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:51.960 Isn't it weird that it's the left left? The left 1124 01:09:52.000 --> 01:09:52.800 left us? Guys? 1125 01:09:54.640 --> 01:09:58.520 Yeah, I was thinking about that last night, and it 1126 01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:02.720 the thing that I guess there's two things that makes 1127 01:10:02.760 --> 01:10:08.760 that suspect. One, these are not people with agency, so 1128 01:10:08.840 --> 01:10:11.479 it's not like they that's it's it's in the phrase 1129 01:10:11.560 --> 01:10:14.520 the left. I didn't leave the left. The left left me. 1130 01:10:14.520 --> 01:10:16.920 In other words, you were totally fine with the way 1131 01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:20.479 everything was happening, the direction the country was going, in 1132 01:10:20.960 --> 01:10:24.720 the way your own party operated, but actually your party 1133 01:10:24.800 --> 01:10:27.399 wasn't happy with it. Your party was like, we don't 1134 01:10:27.399 --> 01:10:30.079 need you anymore. So these are not agency. These are 1135 01:10:30.119 --> 01:10:32.119 not people with agency, Like they didn't come to this 1136 01:10:32.199 --> 01:10:35.720 Eureka moment where they suddenly realized that that they were, 1137 01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:37.960 you know, on the wrong side of history or whatever. 1138 01:10:39.640 --> 01:10:42.840 So and they also like don't have any self reflective 1139 01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:45.960 ability either. They just they think that they were always 1140 01:10:46.000 --> 01:10:49.279 in the right and you know, they were always morally correct, 1141 01:10:49.359 --> 01:10:54.680 not politically right, and that the left just got too wacky. 1142 01:10:54.720 --> 01:10:58.880 But really what happened was the left, you know left 1143 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:02.520 progressive liberal is and had somewhere else who wanted to go, 1144 01:11:04.319 --> 01:11:06.119 had scheduled to keep up with We got to get 1145 01:11:06.119 --> 01:11:08.960 to the next stop. We have to wage the next 1146 01:11:09.079 --> 01:11:12.479 battle in the culture war. And and now you know, 1147 01:11:12.560 --> 01:11:16.159 the left left me. Those people are now just they're 1148 01:11:16.199 --> 01:11:19.199 the latest scapegoats. And that's kind of what like the 1149 01:11:19.239 --> 01:11:23.279 same thing with the SJW thing. It's like, Okay, clearly 1150 01:11:23.319 --> 01:11:27.640 Trump comes in, the political culture is different. We need 1151 01:11:27.640 --> 01:11:30.800 somebody to hold the bag for us, and we'll dump 1152 01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:34.600 it on BuzzFeed, We'll dump it on Vox, will dump 1153 01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:39.199 it on blue haired crazies, We'll dump it on people 1154 01:11:39.239 --> 01:11:41.720 that are not useful to us anymore. And that's the 1155 01:11:41.720 --> 01:11:45.279 same thing with woke. It's like, okays, as people are 1156 01:11:45.279 --> 01:11:47.680 saying on Twitter, you know, woke was defeated at the 1157 01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:53.560 ballot box. I don't asterisk asterisk, I don't totally condone 1158 01:11:53.560 --> 01:11:56.039 that statement, but just for the sake of conversation, you know, 1159 01:11:56.119 --> 01:12:00.960 things are different and some people have to go. The 1160 01:12:01.000 --> 01:12:03.279 regime has to kind of cut some dead weight in 1161 01:12:03.399 --> 01:12:07.039 order to pivot whatever is going to happen over the 1162 01:12:07.079 --> 01:12:09.319 next four years. It has to do something different, and 1163 01:12:09.399 --> 01:12:12.119 that means getting rid of things that don't work anymore. 1164 01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:16.600 And so this woke left thing is just it's now 1165 01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:20.680 a scapegoat that lots of people in the establishment are, 1166 01:12:21.159 --> 01:12:25.479 whether cynically or honestly or whatever, are willing to dispose 1167 01:12:25.520 --> 01:12:27.720 of and maybe even look at a little bit critically, 1168 01:12:28.159 --> 01:12:30.479 so they can sacrifice that. Now you can call the 1169 01:12:30.520 --> 01:12:34.000 new enemies, which is people like us, people who put 1170 01:12:34.039 --> 01:12:38.199 Trump in office, people who liked Project twenty twenty five, 1171 01:12:39.279 --> 01:12:42.199 so on and so forth, people who are supporting Daniel Penny. 1172 01:12:42.239 --> 01:12:45.920 By the way, he just beat another count today. So 1173 01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:50.119 we need to be dealt with, and they've got this 1174 01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:53.800 convenient tool. Just as a final thought, is I kind 1175 01:12:53.840 --> 01:12:58.239 of admire the way that the system really can repurpose 1176 01:12:59.039 --> 01:13:02.399 everything that happens, Like they can turn a bad thing 1177 01:13:02.520 --> 01:13:05.199 into a good thing. So like Woke was this horse 1178 01:13:05.600 --> 01:13:08.079 that they rode into or wrote in, you know, rode 1179 01:13:08.119 --> 01:13:11.119 into power on and then it became something that was 1180 01:13:11.159 --> 01:13:15.319 not feasible for them anymore or problematic, but it still 1181 01:13:15.319 --> 01:13:17.319 has a use for them. It's still so it's still 1182 01:13:17.319 --> 01:13:20.000 a cudgel they can beat us with. So I just 1183 01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:22.760 I think there's something kind of darkly funny about that. 1184 01:13:22.960 --> 01:13:26.119 But yeah, those are my thoughts. 1185 01:13:26.119 --> 01:13:30.800 Something you said there about how there was a it 1186 01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:34.399 was a train there. You know, Leftism is this train 1187 01:13:34.479 --> 01:13:38.000 and it's moving and it took a direction. It went 1188 01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:40.800 in a direction that they they didn't want to follow, 1189 01:13:40.840 --> 01:13:44.159 where they had to get off. Yeah. I've been reading 1190 01:13:44.199 --> 01:13:47.880 this book The Demon and Democracy by Raizard Lagutko, and 1191 01:13:47.960 --> 01:13:50.479 he talks about this. He's he basically says, if you 1192 01:13:50.520 --> 01:13:55.119 have a political ideology that is a path that it's 1193 01:13:55.319 --> 01:13:58.079 you're going somewhere with it. If it's not like you're 1194 01:13:59.319 --> 01:14:02.920 seizing power and saying stop, this is who we are. 1195 01:14:03.520 --> 01:14:10.439 We're we're tradcath we're you know, right, we're right wingers, 1196 01:14:10.479 --> 01:14:14.199 where national socialists, whatever the fuck it is. If you're 1197 01:14:14.199 --> 01:14:17.119 not if you're not taking power to say this is 1198 01:14:17.159 --> 01:14:21.239 where if you're looking at a path going forward, you're 1199 01:14:21.239 --> 01:14:25.399 a liberal. You're trying, you're trying to move in a 1200 01:14:25.479 --> 01:14:28.479 direction to make things better and better and better. No, 1201 01:14:28.600 --> 01:14:31.880 there's already some that's not the goal of politics. That 1202 01:14:31.880 --> 01:14:34.720 should be like your personal life. That should be your 1203 01:14:34.920 --> 01:14:39.000 church life. Maybe your church wants to has goals, but 1204 01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:42.199 your politics can't have goals. Your politics have to be 1205 01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:46.399 something that stays in one place and protects you so 1206 01:14:46.439 --> 01:14:49.960 that you and it's not trying to move you anywhere. 1207 01:14:50.119 --> 01:14:52.680 Because if it's trying to move you somewhere, you have 1208 01:14:52.720 --> 01:14:54.359 to go with it. If you don't go with it, 1209 01:14:54.399 --> 01:14:56.319 if you decide to go with it, now you're on 1210 01:14:56.359 --> 01:15:00.600 the path of it going left or right or everywhere, 1211 01:15:00.920 --> 01:15:02.359 and you're basically screwed. 1212 01:15:05.399 --> 01:15:06.560 Yeah I agree. 1213 01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:11.800 Yeah, So all right in the article, and here's the 1214 01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:17.319 thing that I think you brought up that really no 1215 01:15:17.359 --> 01:15:20.760 one else has brought up. You had a heading called 1216 01:15:20.840 --> 01:15:25.920 the New Paranoid Style, and you bring up Richard Hofstetter. 1217 01:15:26.159 --> 01:15:29.600 Why don't you get into exactly why you bring up 1218 01:15:29.640 --> 01:15:33.399 Hostetter and how you relate it to this wook right thing. 1219 01:15:34.840 --> 01:15:38.680 Yeah, so, I this is a kind of a convenient 1220 01:15:38.800 --> 01:15:42.199 thing for me because I've been reading up on the 1221 01:15:42.199 --> 01:15:44.920 post war consensus the last couple of years for a 1222 01:15:44.960 --> 01:15:47.800 lot of my writing, and it started with Carl Popper. 1223 01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:50.960 Last time we spoke, I think, which was back in February, 1224 01:15:51.399 --> 01:15:53.880 was just before my new book, my most recent book 1225 01:15:53.880 --> 01:15:57.760 came out called Understanding Conspiracy Theories, and it was very 1226 01:15:57.840 --> 01:16:01.119 much based on the idea that a big part of 1227 01:16:01.760 --> 01:16:05.880 contemporary conspiratorial culture has to do with the development of 1228 01:16:05.880 --> 01:16:09.720 the post war consensus. And James Lindsay on his recent 1229 01:16:09.760 --> 01:16:14.479 Trigonometry appearance, and this I considered to be a major 1230 01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:21.000 own goal, like a crazy faux pas. He went ahead 1231 01:16:21.039 --> 01:16:23.880 and he basically spilled the beans on our worldview, and 1232 01:16:23.920 --> 01:16:26.079 he said it in half the time it takes us 1233 01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:29.479 to say it. He said it maybe more articulately than 1234 01:16:29.520 --> 01:16:32.079 a lot of us can say it. He named a 1235 01:16:32.079 --> 01:16:34.760 lot of the players involved. I mean, he showed all 1236 01:16:34.760 --> 01:16:36.800 of the receipts. It was really kind of impressive. It's 1237 01:16:36.840 --> 01:16:40.239 like if you wanted the elevator pitch for the radical 1238 01:16:40.319 --> 01:16:43.000 right or the nationalist right, like you could clip out 1239 01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:46.680 that section. And he talks about how well the woke 1240 01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:49.319 right believes in this thing called the post the kooky 1241 01:16:49.399 --> 01:16:53.279 post war consensus, this crazy idea of a post war consensus. 1242 01:16:53.920 --> 01:16:56.720 And I had been reading about Richard Hofstadter, who was 1243 01:16:56.760 --> 01:17:00.359 a celebrated historian throughout the forties and fifties. He's a 1244 01:17:00.359 --> 01:17:06.600 New Yorker like me. He's from Buffalo, ethnically Jewish, but American, 1245 01:17:07.439 --> 01:17:10.359 and he was an avowed American liberal. In his youth. 1246 01:17:10.399 --> 01:17:13.479 He was a Marxist. Like a lot of people at 1247 01:17:13.479 --> 01:17:16.199 that time, he was a Marxist. I believe he may 1248 01:17:16.199 --> 01:17:20.720 have even been affiliated with the American Communist Party. And 1249 01:17:20.920 --> 01:17:23.359 like a lot of people of his ilk at that time, 1250 01:17:23.880 --> 01:17:29.479 when communism in Russia changed moved in a more Stalinist direction, 1251 01:17:30.479 --> 01:17:33.960 people like hof Staddard said, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, this 1252 01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:36.720 is the left leaving me kind of thing, like whoa 1253 01:17:36.920 --> 01:17:38.560 pumped the brakes, dude, we don't want to do this. 1254 01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:42.399 And you know, my suspicion, which I think is born 1255 01:17:42.399 --> 01:17:45.000 out historically, has a lot to do with the fact 1256 01:17:45.039 --> 01:17:49.279 that Stalin moved Russia into a more kind of ethnic, 1257 01:17:50.279 --> 01:17:55.680 sort of nationalistic, sort of traditional culture due to moving 1258 01:17:55.720 --> 01:17:58.520 into a wartime footing, due to all kinds of things 1259 01:17:58.560 --> 01:18:02.119 that were happening. So it wasn't Bolshevism anymore. It wasn't 1260 01:18:02.199 --> 01:18:05.119 Leninism anymore. It wasn't what the kinds of things that 1261 01:18:05.359 --> 01:18:08.239 people like cough stat Are saw in it. It wasn't 1262 01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:14.239 that intensely liberalizing political force that it was early on, 1263 01:18:14.279 --> 01:18:16.159 because when Lenin came in, and I'm not a historian, 1264 01:18:17.199 --> 01:18:19.439 I don't really have the greatest understanding of Soviet Russia, 1265 01:18:19.479 --> 01:18:21.760 but you know, some of the things that Lenin and 1266 01:18:21.800 --> 01:18:24.840 the Bolsheviks did when they first came in was liberalize 1267 01:18:24.880 --> 01:18:29.960 a lot of things abortion, marriage laws, you know, sexuality, 1268 01:18:30.039 --> 01:18:33.920 sexual sexual ethics, things that look a lot like what 1269 01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:37.199 liberalism has done here and around the world is what 1270 01:18:37.279 --> 01:18:39.920 happened there. And so obviously people like cof Status saw 1271 01:18:40.039 --> 01:18:43.680 that and they said, hey, that's great. Stalin comes in, 1272 01:18:44.159 --> 01:18:48.279 changes the direction of things more religious, more ethnic, more chauvinistic, 1273 01:18:48.399 --> 01:18:52.199 more chest thumping. You know, he's a Georgian bank robber. 1274 01:18:52.920 --> 01:18:56.319 Stalin so's he's a strong man. And that didn't appeal 1275 01:18:56.319 --> 01:18:59.720 to people like cough Statter, so opstat are pivots, dis 1276 01:19:00.279 --> 01:19:06.600 his communists passed, and disavows his history, his historic material 1277 01:19:06.680 --> 01:19:10.600 history history. I forget what the phrase is. The Marxist 1278 01:19:10.680 --> 01:19:13.359 kind of genealogical method, historical materialism. 1279 01:19:13.479 --> 01:19:16.880 He disavows dialectical materialism. 1280 01:19:17.039 --> 01:19:20.560 Thank you, thank you, and he starts moving in this 1281 01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:25.199 direction of what's called consensus history now at the time 1282 01:19:25.399 --> 01:19:28.760 in the United States, consensus history. Again, this has been 1283 01:19:28.840 --> 01:19:33.560 thirties forties roundabout. There was how a lot of historians 1284 01:19:34.239 --> 01:19:37.000 viewed history. That's how they did a lot of their 1285 01:19:37.159 --> 01:19:40.039 history writing. Charles A. Beard being a good example of this. 1286 01:19:41.079 --> 01:19:45.079 Charles A. Beard basically kind of put forth his own, 1287 01:19:46.279 --> 01:19:48.720 if you want to say, like I say this, very 1288 01:19:48.800 --> 01:19:52.680 very loosely, sort of his own American spin on what 1289 01:19:52.760 --> 01:19:57.159 people might think of as a kind of Marxist historiography. 1290 01:19:57.159 --> 01:20:04.640 Because he emphasized economic class a conflict, not using Marxist language, 1291 01:20:04.960 --> 01:20:08.920 not on Marxist terms, not without other Marxist baggage, he's 1292 01:20:08.920 --> 01:20:13.560 often been confused or interpreted as a Marxist historian. As 1293 01:20:13.600 --> 01:20:16.359 far as I can tell, that's not the case. But anyway, 1294 01:20:17.000 --> 01:20:23.920 Hofstadter comes in and he makes some alterations, adjustments to 1295 01:20:24.119 --> 01:20:28.760 this Beardy and hypothesis, and as a result, he's kind 1296 01:20:28.760 --> 01:20:32.560 of given he's branded as the new face of consensus history, 1297 01:20:33.760 --> 01:20:39.239 and he's looking at things like educational reform over the 1298 01:20:39.279 --> 01:20:42.000 course of American history. He's looking at things like the 1299 01:20:42.039 --> 01:20:46.399 emergence of populist parties over the course of American history. 1300 01:20:46.560 --> 01:20:50.039 He's looking at things like gun rights, the gun culture 1301 01:20:50.079 --> 01:20:53.039 in the United States, and as is relevant to this 1302 01:20:53.159 --> 01:20:56.800 essay in the nineteen sixties, he's looking at what he 1303 01:20:56.880 --> 01:21:00.439 called pseudo conservatism, which would have been at that time, 1304 01:21:01.039 --> 01:21:06.760 the Barry Goldwater presidential candidacy, the John Birch Society, it 1305 01:21:06.760 --> 01:21:10.600 would have been McCarthy and the Red Scares. And he's 1306 01:21:10.600 --> 01:21:15.159 calling this pseudo conservatism. It's his way of sort of 1307 01:21:16.399 --> 01:21:21.960 smearing the most populist wing of the American right at 1308 01:21:21.960 --> 01:21:24.760 his time, in the same way that James Lindsay is 1309 01:21:24.800 --> 01:21:28.199 doing today with this idea of the woke right. And 1310 01:21:28.680 --> 01:21:32.399 he's basically saying that, well, you have this group of 1311 01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:38.399 people who are engaging in a sort of analysis of 1312 01:21:38.439 --> 01:21:44.000 power relations, but they're doing it because they're parochial, backwoods 1313 01:21:44.159 --> 01:21:47.880 yokels who are paranoid and mentally ill. And that was 1314 01:21:47.920 --> 01:21:50.680 the essay Paranoid style and American politics, talking about the 1315 01:21:50.720 --> 01:21:54.880 John Birch Society, talking about Barry Goldwater, talking about all 1316 01:21:54.880 --> 01:21:58.279 of this kind of aggressive conservative energy that was developing 1317 01:21:58.319 --> 01:22:01.560 at that time. Of course, they needed to do something 1318 01:22:01.560 --> 01:22:04.680 with They didn't want that to become hegemonic in the 1319 01:22:04.720 --> 01:22:08.000 United States. When I say they, I mean the progressive Liberals, 1320 01:22:08.680 --> 01:22:11.840 other factions in the United States at that time. So 1321 01:22:13.520 --> 01:22:16.359 that eventually got published a year later in a collection 1322 01:22:16.399 --> 01:22:21.039 of essays, and I just it just looks that there's 1323 01:22:21.039 --> 01:22:26.079 a couple of things in the way that Hofstadter presented 1324 01:22:26.079 --> 01:22:31.159 his case that was just very similar to me as 1325 01:22:31.199 --> 01:22:34.079 to how James Lindsay presented his picture of the woke right. 1326 01:22:34.960 --> 01:22:41.199 In both cases, they're they're they're presenting the narrative from 1327 01:22:41.239 --> 01:22:45.439 the point of view of their opposition. In the case 1328 01:22:45.479 --> 01:22:48.039 of James Lindsay, he's walking us through the development of 1329 01:22:48.079 --> 01:22:52.159 the post war consensus. He's walking us through Bill Buckley 1330 01:22:52.159 --> 01:22:55.680 in the National Review, kicking out the real conservatives. He's 1331 01:22:55.760 --> 01:22:59.720 he's he's name dropping all of these intellectuals who are 1332 01:22:59.720 --> 01:23:03.600 black listed from kind of academia and the popular culture, 1333 01:23:04.079 --> 01:23:07.000 like Karl Schmidt. But then at the very end of it, 1334 01:23:07.279 --> 01:23:10.399 after basically laying out all the facts and laying out 1335 01:23:10.399 --> 01:23:14.840 all the receipts, he just says, but it's woke. But 1336 01:23:15.439 --> 01:23:18.920 all of this truth okay, okay, okay, okay, but it's woke. 1337 01:23:19.119 --> 01:23:22.279 Now forget about it, which is basically what Hofstadter did. 1338 01:23:22.520 --> 01:23:28.279 He's talking about the ethnic replacement of German Irish Catholics 1339 01:23:28.560 --> 01:23:34.680 and Anglo Saxon Protestants. He's talking about well, he's talking 1340 01:23:34.720 --> 01:23:38.039 about the John Birch Society and the resistance against communists. 1341 01:23:38.039 --> 01:23:40.800 He's talking about Robert Welch in the Birch Society, he's 1342 01:23:40.800 --> 01:23:43.840 talking about McCarthy, and he's laying out these facts and 1343 01:23:43.840 --> 01:23:46.680 an at the very end of it, we have at 1344 01:23:46.680 --> 01:23:48.600 the pivotal moment where you have to either say, like, 1345 01:23:48.840 --> 01:23:51.239 they're right, we should do X as a result of this, 1346 01:23:51.319 --> 01:23:55.239 he says, but they're paranoid, and so we can swipe 1347 01:23:55.239 --> 01:23:59.239 it under the rug and it's illegitimate and it doesn't matter. 1348 01:23:59.319 --> 01:24:02.880 And they're all creat kooks and they're all parochial. They've 1349 01:24:02.920 --> 01:24:06.319 got their their pitchforks and their torches and they don't 1350 01:24:06.319 --> 01:24:09.159 really know anything. And there's some really really remarkable things 1351 01:24:09.159 --> 01:24:11.920 he says in the book, Like he uses the example, 1352 01:24:12.199 --> 01:24:15.000 I don't know if you're one of these people that 1353 01:24:15.039 --> 01:24:17.319 gets into this kind of stuff. But he brings up 1354 01:24:17.520 --> 01:24:19.159 floride in the water supply. 1355 01:24:20.439 --> 01:24:23.920 I'm just like, I'm just familiar with it. 1356 01:24:24.199 --> 01:24:28.079 So he says, there's one passage where he says, uh, 1357 01:24:28.159 --> 01:24:30.920 and this is very Lakanian. Lacan Is a French was 1358 01:24:30.920 --> 01:24:37.720 a French psychoanalyst. There's a famous quote attributed to him. Uh, 1359 01:24:37.800 --> 01:24:39.920 if your wife is cheating on you, if you if 1360 01:24:39.960 --> 01:24:42.159 you fear that, even if you let me walk it back, 1361 01:24:42.560 --> 01:24:44.560 if you fear that your wife is cheating on you 1362 01:24:44.840 --> 01:24:48.680 and she is, you're still paranoid for worrying about it. 1363 01:24:48.720 --> 01:24:50.800 Like so to chew on that for a second, Like 1364 01:24:50.840 --> 01:24:54.600 that's a crazy kind of statement to make. Hofstetter does 1365 01:24:54.680 --> 01:24:59.399 the same thing. He's like, even if the government put 1366 01:24:59.479 --> 01:25:03.000 fluoride in the water supply as a form of social control, 1367 01:25:03.439 --> 01:25:08.199 political control, and they were doing it to buttress a 1368 01:25:08.319 --> 01:25:12.279 larger socialist agenda, you would be crazy for thinking of that. 1369 01:25:12.560 --> 01:25:14.159 And now you read that in twenty twenty four, and 1370 01:25:14.199 --> 01:25:16.800 it's like we've for like twenty years or more, we're 1371 01:25:16.840 --> 01:25:19.720 reading all of these reports about, well, that's what happened, 1372 01:25:19.960 --> 01:25:23.079 and that's why it happened. It's like, not only did 1373 01:25:23.119 --> 01:25:25.479 they put fluoride in the water supply, but they did 1374 01:25:25.479 --> 01:25:30.000 it for this kind of biopolitical demographic control along the 1375 01:25:30.039 --> 01:25:35.079 way towards rolling out this comprehensive socialist agenda. It's just 1376 01:25:35.159 --> 01:25:38.279 like that's really really crazy to read after the fact. 1377 01:25:38.319 --> 01:25:40.159 But yeah, so. 1378 01:25:41.960 --> 01:25:46.439 In addition to this kind of comprehensive narrative and the 1379 01:25:47.079 --> 01:25:50.399 use of a pejorative, I just think that there's a 1380 01:25:50.520 --> 01:25:52.159 I lay out some other arguments in the essay two. 1381 01:25:52.159 --> 01:25:53.159 I don't know if you want to get to them, 1382 01:25:53.199 --> 01:25:56.920 but those are just the most remarkable things that allowed 1383 01:25:56.920 --> 01:25:58.079 me to draw that comparison. 1384 01:25:58.479 --> 01:26:00.600 Yeah, I mean, we can get to the other I 1385 01:26:00.680 --> 01:26:05.840 just wanted to say. It's what's funny is as Lindsay 1386 01:26:06.039 --> 01:26:09.319 is listing all of these things, which are historical facts, 1387 01:26:10.479 --> 01:26:29.279 painting that them as conspiracy theory, these things for a second, Yeah, 1388 01:26:29.279 --> 01:26:32.840 you wrote it that out pretty badly, Okay, so let 1389 01:26:32.840 --> 01:26:36.479 me let me start that again. So one of the 1390 01:26:36.479 --> 01:26:41.880 things Lindsay did that just was he's listing all these things. 1391 01:26:41.880 --> 01:26:43.680 So he's listing all these people and he's trying to 1392 01:26:43.680 --> 01:26:46.840 present it as a conspiracy theory. Yet like all the 1393 01:26:46.840 --> 01:26:50.399 people he's mentioning are writing that they're doing these things, 1394 01:26:50.880 --> 01:26:53.720 are writing these that these things have happened, are saying 1395 01:26:53.760 --> 01:26:57.920 there is a postwar consensus, are bragging about the fact 1396 01:26:57.920 --> 01:27:03.119 that they've changed the the social and political habits of 1397 01:27:03.279 --> 01:27:08.239 the American public, and that I think the thing with 1398 01:27:08.359 --> 01:27:13.239 Lindsay is is that he realizes he's losing and that 1399 01:27:13.720 --> 01:27:17.039 and that his classical liberalism. I remember he had this 1400 01:27:17.159 --> 01:27:20.159 tweet and I think it's the tweet that got me 1401 01:27:20.199 --> 01:27:25.600 blocked because he said, the only thing that can defeat 1402 01:27:25.880 --> 01:27:29.159 the left, the woke on the left is classical liberalism. 1403 01:27:29.359 --> 01:27:32.880 And classical liberalism hasn't even gotten started yet. And my 1404 01:27:33.000 --> 01:27:36.000 comment was, so what you're saying is real classical liberalism 1405 01:27:36.039 --> 01:27:43.359 has ever been tried, and you know, and this was 1406 01:27:43.399 --> 01:27:46.199 at a time when he was attacking Paul Gottfried as woke, 1407 01:27:47.760 --> 01:27:53.399 and Paul Gottfried said on my show and like, people 1408 01:27:53.479 --> 01:27:56.720 didn't hear it. People said, no, Paul said this. I'm like, 1409 01:27:56.840 --> 01:27:59.520 go back and listen to what he said. Paul Godfrey said, 1410 01:27:59.520 --> 01:28:02.800 the only thing that is going to defeat this left 1411 01:28:02.840 --> 01:28:09.439 authoritarianism is right wing authoritarianism. And I agree with him 1412 01:28:09.840 --> 01:28:12.720 that that is the only thing that reverses the post 1413 01:28:12.760 --> 01:28:17.319 war consensus is to the one thing that actually that 1414 01:28:17.640 --> 01:28:20.359 they were actually fighting against. That the whole war had 1415 01:28:20.399 --> 01:28:22.680 the whole world had to go war against you know, 1416 01:28:23.199 --> 01:28:26.439 back back in time when the post war consensus was 1417 01:28:27.039 --> 01:28:31.000 in the in the in the in the the mid 1418 01:28:31.039 --> 01:28:34.840 war years between the wars, when it was starting to 1419 01:28:34.920 --> 01:28:37.600 formulate and people were literally fighting back. I mean, you 1420 01:28:37.640 --> 01:28:41.319 had new political movements rising to fight against it. And 1421 01:28:41.359 --> 01:28:43.800 I think Lindsey just realizes it. I think he's in 1422 01:28:43.840 --> 01:28:47.920 a panic. I think he's in a complete panic that 1423 01:28:48.600 --> 01:28:51.439 he knows that people are just falling away that Like 1424 01:28:52.159 --> 01:28:55.159 you say what you want about mega people, I think 1425 01:28:55.239 --> 01:28:58.760 mega people right now at this point want change and 1426 01:28:58.800 --> 01:29:01.800 they don't care how it get it. They don't care 1427 01:29:01.960 --> 01:29:05.399 if you know Trump has to become an article to president. 1428 01:29:06.399 --> 01:29:09.399 They just want change. And I think that's what scares 1429 01:29:09.479 --> 01:29:11.960 the crap out of these people is they know that 1430 01:29:12.119 --> 01:29:15.079 eventually this is coming for them. 1431 01:29:15.359 --> 01:29:19.960 Yeah, the if you were a libertarian in the previous life. 1432 01:29:20.000 --> 01:29:22.720 I was a libertarian in a previous life. I remember 1433 01:29:22.760 --> 01:29:27.600 reading Thomas D. Lorenzo like Abraham Lincoln is the American dictator. 1434 01:29:27.600 --> 01:29:31.399 It's like, these were the kinds of concerns people had seven, ten, 1435 01:29:31.560 --> 01:29:34.399 twelve years ago. And if you talk to your average conservative, 1436 01:29:35.039 --> 01:29:39.880 they don't care at all, especially post COVID once things, 1437 01:29:40.399 --> 01:29:43.840 you know, stopped heating up in the COVID era and 1438 01:29:43.880 --> 01:29:46.199 you're able to go out and do things again. I 1439 01:29:46.239 --> 01:29:47.840 did a lot of going out, I think probably like 1440 01:29:47.880 --> 01:29:49.960 a lot of people did, like let me get some air, 1441 01:29:50.319 --> 01:29:53.199 and just talking to people, business owners, whether it's like 1442 01:29:53.279 --> 01:29:57.039 local bars, restaurants, whatever, people who had to close businesses, 1443 01:29:57.119 --> 01:30:01.239 people who kept their businesses open stream cost to them 1444 01:30:01.279 --> 01:30:04.800 and their families and their financial security and things like that. 1445 01:30:04.840 --> 01:30:09.239 And to a person, everyone is saying things like, well, 1446 01:30:09.279 --> 01:30:11.399 I won't repeat what they said on air, but they 1447 01:30:11.399 --> 01:30:14.439 were saying things like I don't care what has to happen. 1448 01:30:15.199 --> 01:30:17.640 I do not care what has to happen, but it 1449 01:30:17.720 --> 01:30:20.319 has to happen. These are the kinds of things that 1450 01:30:20.359 --> 01:30:23.520 they were saying. And just to your point, like we've 1451 01:30:25.119 --> 01:30:26.920 almost I say this again with a little bit of 1452 01:30:26.920 --> 01:30:29.680 an asterisk, we've almost been able to have kind of 1453 01:30:29.760 --> 01:30:35.560 any other political option presented to us, but something like 1454 01:30:35.680 --> 01:30:41.560 a strong conservative executive. We've had all these flavors of 1455 01:30:41.960 --> 01:30:50.640 right liberalism, libertarianism, paleo libertarianism, conservatism, paleo military or minoritarianism, whatever, 1456 01:30:50.920 --> 01:30:54.319 all these flavors on the left of different brands of 1457 01:30:54.359 --> 01:31:02.560 socialist communist, light communists, you know, diet communism, communism, thunder whatever, 1458 01:31:02.760 --> 01:31:07.680 like mango communism, like boiler plate neoliberalism. We have had 1459 01:31:07.720 --> 01:31:11.800 every kind of personality, every flavor, every color, but the 1460 01:31:11.840 --> 01:31:13.600 one thing we haven't been able to have, and it's 1461 01:31:13.600 --> 01:31:15.760 also the one thing that we had to fight a 1462 01:31:15.880 --> 01:31:19.560 ten year culture war, almost ten decade long culture war 1463 01:31:20.039 --> 01:31:23.159 just to be able to get is something like right 1464 01:31:23.159 --> 01:31:27.359 wing authoritarianism. So yeah, the thing like getting on Paul 1465 01:31:27.399 --> 01:31:31.960 Gottfried's case and calling him woke, it's like he's probably 1466 01:31:32.239 --> 01:31:36.479 like one of the best bridges from like the genesis 1467 01:31:36.479 --> 01:31:39.840 of woke to us that exists. Like he studied under 1468 01:31:39.880 --> 01:31:43.800 Herbert Marcuse, you know, he was thrown out by these 1469 01:31:44.640 --> 01:31:50.319 old school communist left wing anti anti family types, anti 1470 01:31:50.399 --> 01:31:55.439 capitalist types, anti you know, anti everything good effectively, and 1471 01:31:55.520 --> 01:31:59.039 he's documenting it for decades and decades he's documenting it. 1472 01:31:59.079 --> 01:32:02.119 So just yeah, James Lendsy is definitely shitting his pants. 1473 01:32:03.239 --> 01:32:07.760 The thing that I the thing I've also kind of 1474 01:32:07.760 --> 01:32:12.239 come to realize about his whole position is this, and 1475 01:32:12.279 --> 01:32:14.319 it makes me think he's I guess there's two you 1476 01:32:14.359 --> 01:32:16.640 can always play this game of does he know what 1477 01:32:16.680 --> 01:32:18.520 he's doing or does he not know what he's doing? 1478 01:32:18.600 --> 01:32:19.800 I'm you know, I'm not going to put on my 1479 01:32:19.840 --> 01:32:23.119 mind reader hat, but just taking what he says at 1480 01:32:23.159 --> 01:32:28.840 face value, his worldview only makes sense if you don't 1481 01:32:28.880 --> 01:32:32.359 interrogate it, if you don't think about it, if you 1482 01:32:32.439 --> 01:32:36.079 don't really ask any questions, then it sort of works. 1483 01:32:36.439 --> 01:32:40.079 But the moment you start picking pulling at threads, it 1484 01:32:40.119 --> 01:32:42.520 really doesn't make any sense at all. So there's the 1485 01:32:42.600 --> 01:32:47.119 definition that James Lendsay gives for woke. I'm actually, uh, 1486 01:32:47.239 --> 01:32:51.359 I'm going to read it from my essay. What does 1487 01:32:51.399 --> 01:32:57.359 woke mean? Woke up to a structural politics that marginalizes 1488 01:32:57.399 --> 01:33:00.000 people like me and we need to band together inside 1489 01:33:00.000 --> 01:33:02.520 colidarity in order to be able to create a powerful 1490 01:33:02.560 --> 01:33:05.760 enough oppressed coalition to flip over the power structure by 1491 01:33:05.800 --> 01:33:09.319 putting ourselves at the center and claiming power for ourselves. 1492 01:33:09.359 --> 01:33:11.520 So he's saying, is that what it means? Actually, there 1493 01:33:11.520 --> 01:33:16.479 was there was an even better quote, actually to awaken 1494 01:33:16.680 --> 01:33:20.560 a critical consciousness of the power structure. So that's that's 1495 01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:23.439 actually I tweeted that at him and then he blocked me. 1496 01:33:23.800 --> 01:33:27.359 So woke is to come to a critical consciousness of 1497 01:33:27.399 --> 01:33:32.720 the power structure you that is such a thin or 1498 01:33:32.920 --> 01:33:36.479 or or kind of like widely applicable definition as to 1499 01:33:37.159 --> 01:33:39.680 fundamentally not have any real meaning. And it's why he's 1500 01:33:39.800 --> 01:33:43.880 waging this like weeks long jihad with people, Like what 1501 01:33:43.920 --> 01:33:46.479 are you even talking about? How can you call these 1502 01:33:46.520 --> 01:33:53.520 people woke? Because if you think about something, you're being 1503 01:33:53.520 --> 01:33:57.399 critical and everything has the structure, so you're becoming aware 1504 01:33:57.439 --> 01:33:59.800 of the structure. So one, like he's he's basically saying, 1505 01:33:59.800 --> 01:34:02.319 you have to be unconscious. You have to not think 1506 01:34:02.359 --> 01:34:07.399 about things. We want this like illiterate unconscious liberalism where 1507 01:34:07.439 --> 01:34:09.960 we just float around in the world and we don't 1508 01:34:09.960 --> 01:34:13.399 really pay attention to what's going on nineties liberalism. Basically, 1509 01:34:13.479 --> 01:34:15.039 he wants to go back to a time where things 1510 01:34:15.039 --> 01:34:17.720 are kind of like you're like embryotic, like you're in 1511 01:34:17.800 --> 01:34:21.199 your mom's belly and things are warm and gushy and 1512 01:34:21.239 --> 01:34:23.439 you feel good and you don't have to worry about anything. 1513 01:34:23.920 --> 01:34:26.279 One that's not the world we live in anymore. Two 1514 01:34:27.039 --> 01:34:29.680 that's not a good world to live in at all. 1515 01:34:30.199 --> 01:34:34.920 Like imagine being this like brilliant academic mathematician. You've got 1516 01:34:34.920 --> 01:34:38.000 all these prizes and awards, and you're telling people that 1517 01:34:38.079 --> 01:34:41.119 you want them to not be critical thinkers. Like that's 1518 01:34:41.159 --> 01:34:43.800 not even that doesn't even follow from the kind of 1519 01:34:43.920 --> 01:34:47.199 nineties liberalism that we lived through that I grew up in, 1520 01:34:47.239 --> 01:34:50.119 where it's like be a critical thinker, like you know, 1521 01:34:50.279 --> 01:34:53.119 baby Josh in elementary school, like grow up to be 1522 01:34:53.159 --> 01:34:55.960 a critical thinker, like everyone saying critical thinking is good, 1523 01:34:56.079 --> 01:34:59.600 build your critical thinking skills. And now here here's James lindsay, 1524 01:34:59.680 --> 01:35:03.119 like critical thinking is bad, don't do it. It's like, 1525 01:35:03.159 --> 01:35:07.800 that's kind of ridiculous. But also like by that own definition, 1526 01:35:08.439 --> 01:35:12.039 coming to a critical consciousness of power structures, like he 1527 01:35:12.279 --> 01:35:15.479 is woke by his own definition. How can you reverse 1528 01:35:15.560 --> 01:35:21.760 engineer this Marxist revolution without coming to a critical consciousness 1529 01:35:22.119 --> 01:35:26.359 of the power structures that produced woke Marxism? Right, he 1530 01:35:26.399 --> 01:35:29.000 wants to talk about Franz Finon and all of these 1531 01:35:29.039 --> 01:35:32.960 other people, Like you have to think and deliberate and 1532 01:35:33.039 --> 01:35:36.199 research and work and and be critically. You have to 1533 01:35:36.239 --> 01:35:38.479 critique the power structure. You have to come to an 1534 01:35:38.520 --> 01:35:42.960 awareness of the institutions and networks that created this. So 1535 01:35:43.760 --> 01:35:48.039 this is one of the reasons why I say that 1536 01:35:47.800 --> 01:35:52.079 is that it's predominantly a smear. It's it's what I 1537 01:35:52.119 --> 01:35:56.439 called regime polemics, because he's basically working for the system 1538 01:35:57.039 --> 01:36:01.319 to come up with a larger bad to to beat 1539 01:36:01.399 --> 01:36:01.680 us with. 1540 01:36:02.680 --> 01:36:05.319 Well, you know, and one of the other things that 1541 01:36:05.359 --> 01:36:08.439 he ascribes to woke is he's like, oh, they're studying 1542 01:36:08.520 --> 01:36:13.359 Carl Schmidt. The friend and enemy distinction when you call 1543 01:36:13.439 --> 01:36:17.680 someone woke, right, what are you doing? Are you not 1544 01:36:17.840 --> 01:36:23.920 practicing friend? Enemy? And it's the this just goes to 1545 01:36:23.920 --> 01:36:26.840 show how retarded classical liberals are. And I'm not talking 1546 01:36:26.880 --> 01:36:32.000 about like historically classical liberals. If it's twenty twenty four 1547 01:36:32.720 --> 01:36:36.640 and you're still a classical liberal and you're not just 1548 01:36:38.159 --> 01:36:41.560 I don't know, you don't really have anything. You can't 1549 01:36:41.640 --> 01:36:45.279 join the discussion. You're not in the discussion anymore. Classical 1550 01:36:45.359 --> 01:36:51.560 liberalism has been so i mean just marginalized, and it's 1551 01:36:51.680 --> 01:36:54.840 just so dead in the water that the people who 1552 01:36:54.920 --> 01:36:59.840 are arguing for it, they justin arguing for it, they 1553 01:37:00.079 --> 01:37:05.640 contradict their own their own assertions about other groups. And 1554 01:37:05.760 --> 01:37:12.840 it's you're he's some great intellectual because he wrote a 1555 01:37:12.840 --> 01:37:16.880 bunch of fake papers and got them. I mean, come on, 1556 01:37:18.199 --> 01:37:22.439 come on, and then you then you completely rewrote the 1557 01:37:22.520 --> 01:37:25.800 Communist Manifesto. The only thing you left in there that 1558 01:37:26.239 --> 01:37:29.920 would jump out at anybody was something about a specter, 1559 01:37:30.520 --> 01:37:35.319 and I can that's the way I write, where I'll 1560 01:37:35.960 --> 01:37:41.399 I'll borrow a really famous kind of line from somewhere 1561 01:37:41.479 --> 01:37:44.159 and rearrange it to make it and and if I'm 1562 01:37:44.159 --> 01:37:46.199 reading that, I'm just like, oh, okay, So because I 1563 01:37:46.279 --> 01:37:48.039 read that thing, and I'm like, if I didn't know 1564 01:37:48.079 --> 01:37:50.560 this was supposed to be the Communist Manifesto, I wouldn't 1565 01:37:50.560 --> 01:37:53.560 have known it. Because I've read the Communist Manifesto many times. 1566 01:37:53.720 --> 01:37:56.079 I didn't see it in that. All I saw was 1567 01:37:56.159 --> 01:37:59.079 him using some kind of device where he's picking the 1568 01:37:59.119 --> 01:38:02.279 most famous line out of it and then using it, 1569 01:38:02.319 --> 01:38:04.840 which is a device I use, but I don't use 1570 01:38:04.880 --> 01:38:06.960 it to fool people. I use it because it's like, 1571 01:38:07.000 --> 01:38:08.039 oh look how smart I am. 1572 01:38:08.319 --> 01:38:12.800 Basically, how many times have you seen somebody say once 1573 01:38:12.920 --> 01:38:17.159 as tragedy, again as farce, Like I've written that phrase 1574 01:38:17.199 --> 01:38:21.520 everybody uses. It's like just part of it's part of 1575 01:38:21.520 --> 01:38:25.920 a vocabulary, right, but it's it's it. It does remind 1576 01:38:25.920 --> 01:38:31.479 me of Frankly, I was gonna say ten years ago, 1577 01:38:31.520 --> 01:38:33.319 but really at any point in the last ten years. 1578 01:38:33.760 --> 01:38:38.319 It sounds like a blue haired commie who says you 1579 01:38:38.439 --> 01:38:42.000 uttered the magic words. It's just like Hitler that therefore 1580 01:38:42.039 --> 01:38:45.399 your bad, right, Like it's it's the same type of psychology, 1581 01:38:45.479 --> 01:38:48.359 it's the same type of like way logical, you know, 1582 01:38:48.439 --> 01:38:53.199 way of analyzing this that whole episode. By the way, 1583 01:38:53.600 --> 01:38:55.119 I'm glad you brought it up, because I'd kind of 1584 01:38:55.119 --> 01:38:58.880 forgotten about it. Tell me if you had this feeling. 1585 01:39:00.199 --> 01:39:02.079 There were two real problems I had with that. It 1586 01:39:02.159 --> 01:39:03.920 was the Christian Reformer, who's that the name of the 1587 01:39:03.960 --> 01:39:04.479 website that. 1588 01:39:06.079 --> 01:39:10.159 Oh god, I can't remember. The Amermericanformer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1589 01:39:10.239 --> 01:39:12.399 So there's two things about that that stuck out to 1590 01:39:12.439 --> 01:39:17.079 me right away. One the American he was. He kept 1591 01:39:17.079 --> 01:39:21.119 calling it the leading woke Christian national It's like they 1592 01:39:21.119 --> 01:39:23.800 have less than twenty thousands subscribers on Twitter. 1593 01:39:24.119 --> 01:39:25.680 I didn't even know that. I don't even know who 1594 01:39:25.680 --> 01:39:29.239 they are. Never heard of that, right, you know. And 1595 01:39:29.239 --> 01:39:30.800 I'm a Christian. I have no idea who they are. 1596 01:39:31.319 --> 01:39:34.840 And I'm someone who reads Interview Christian Nationalists, and I 1597 01:39:34.840 --> 01:39:40.880 had no clue who they are because it's like, yeah, yeah, 1598 01:39:40.960 --> 01:39:41.960 it's very arbitrary. 1599 01:39:42.000 --> 01:39:43.760 Again, this is a kind of thing that's common in 1600 01:39:44.119 --> 01:39:47.960 regime polemics. Is because you're working on behalf of the establishment. 1601 01:39:48.199 --> 01:39:53.399 When you select something, it becomes significant, right, Like it 1602 01:39:54.119 --> 01:39:58.439 has the importance and the meaning that you imbue it with. 1603 01:39:58.520 --> 01:39:58.680 Right. 1604 01:39:58.760 --> 01:40:01.560 So if James lindsay, as a representative of you know, 1605 01:40:02.399 --> 01:40:05.640 big gay you know, big gay liberalism, and he says, well, 1606 01:40:05.640 --> 01:40:09.079 this is the institution, this is the Christian nationalist woke 1607 01:40:09.359 --> 01:40:13.159 paper of record, Well, him with his half a million 1608 01:40:13.159 --> 01:40:17.239 Twitter subscribers and his network of academics and his sec 1609 01:40:17.279 --> 01:40:19.319 of fans are now that's it. It's that's that that 1610 01:40:19.399 --> 01:40:22.680 perception has been created, that becomes part of the discourse. 1611 01:40:23.119 --> 01:40:25.560 You now are kind of pushing up against this brick 1612 01:40:25.600 --> 01:40:27.159 wall even trying to refute that. 1613 01:40:27.399 --> 01:40:27.560 Right. 1614 01:40:27.640 --> 01:40:30.800 So that's like this sort of polemical power he has 1615 01:40:31.399 --> 01:40:33.880 as as a member, and he complains, by the way, 1616 01:40:33.920 --> 01:40:36.399 as a brief aside, he complains all the time like 1617 01:40:36.479 --> 01:40:38.880 he doesn't get the star appointments and he's kind of 1618 01:40:38.960 --> 01:40:42.880 left out of all the cool hip soares so like 1619 01:40:43.000 --> 01:40:46.560 obviously he's not the same thing as like Ibram x 1620 01:40:46.640 --> 01:40:48.000 Kendy was, you. 1621 01:40:47.960 --> 01:40:53.720 Know, and even though and even though he is he's 1622 01:40:53.800 --> 01:40:56.720 bankrolled by somebody I'm not going to name because this 1623 01:40:56.800 --> 01:41:01.800 person is very litigious. But he's bankrolled by a ev 1624 01:41:02.560 --> 01:41:06.760 by a big time evangelical who has ties to big 1625 01:41:06.880 --> 01:41:09.600 J money. 1626 01:41:09.840 --> 01:41:14.840 Yeah, I'm not surprised to hear that. So there's this 1627 01:41:15.039 --> 01:41:19.439 arbitrariness to selecting the American Reformer as the woke right 1628 01:41:19.560 --> 01:41:24.199 paper of record. But also, I mean again, you and 1629 01:41:24.279 --> 01:41:28.000 I we've written things, We've published things, We've tried to 1630 01:41:28.000 --> 01:41:31.079 get things published at places for you know, whether it 1631 01:41:31.159 --> 01:41:36.199 was libertarian paper or a conservative or whatever, or even 1632 01:41:36.239 --> 01:41:39.479 like maybe your town, your local newspaper in your hometown. 1633 01:41:39.600 --> 01:41:44.479 Like I kind of know, like I have some idea 1634 01:41:44.520 --> 01:41:47.560 of how things get published and like what that review 1635 01:41:47.640 --> 01:41:52.680 process is like and how extensive it is, Like does 1636 01:41:52.680 --> 01:41:58.279 it really prove that that they like that by publishing 1637 01:41:58.319 --> 01:42:03.319 this kind of mishmashed paper, that it actually reflects like 1638 01:42:03.359 --> 01:42:06.159 they actually are co signed, Like the act of publishing 1639 01:42:06.199 --> 01:42:09.880 obviously is a sort of endorsement. But knowing that, like 1640 01:42:09.880 --> 01:42:12.720 it's the Internet, things move fast and quick. It's a 1641 01:42:12.760 --> 01:42:15.720 shoe string operation. They don't have all this, they don't 1642 01:42:15.760 --> 01:42:17.720 have a whole team of editors, they don't have people 1643 01:42:18.119 --> 01:42:21.039 who it is their job to just do that forty 1644 01:42:21.039 --> 01:42:23.720 to fifty hours a week. They see something, it comes 1645 01:42:23.760 --> 01:42:25.960 through in their email, they probably look at it real 1646 01:42:26.039 --> 01:42:28.720 quick and they say, okay, we'll publish it on Wednesday 1647 01:42:28.720 --> 01:42:31.479 at three pm, thanks for your submission. Like does that 1648 01:42:31.600 --> 01:42:36.439 prove that they are secret Marxists or does it prove 1649 01:42:36.640 --> 01:42:40.319 that in a fast moving technological economy where you are 1650 01:42:40.359 --> 01:42:44.159 part of the alternative media and there's maybe I don't 1651 01:42:44.159 --> 01:42:46.119 want to say anything bad about the American Reformer, I 1652 01:42:46.119 --> 01:42:48.600 don't know them, but just as an example, like maybe 1653 01:42:48.640 --> 01:42:54.560 you don't have the most strenuous submission review process. Maybe 1654 01:42:54.560 --> 01:42:56.520 there's a couple of things you look for and then 1655 01:42:56.560 --> 01:42:58.920 you just publish it. It's like, actually, all you've really 1656 01:42:58.960 --> 01:43:03.399 done is demonstrate that the economy around publishing is probably 1657 01:43:03.479 --> 01:43:06.960 not as rigorous as it ought to be, right, Like 1658 01:43:07.000 --> 01:43:09.920 this is not an actually ideological point that you're making. 1659 01:43:10.159 --> 01:43:14.640 This is like sort of like a banal business failure 1660 01:43:14.720 --> 01:43:18.760 of the business world in the Internet age. Like there's 1661 01:43:18.800 --> 01:43:21.560 so many things that were goofy about it, and like 1662 01:43:21.680 --> 01:43:24.079 it's just funny to me, Like every time he's tried 1663 01:43:24.119 --> 01:43:29.119 to slam the you know, big comical acme hammer down 1664 01:43:29.199 --> 01:43:32.319 on us. It's like it bounces back and hits him 1665 01:43:32.359 --> 01:43:34.640 in the face, like you know, it's like wildly Coyote 1666 01:43:34.720 --> 01:43:37.239 and the road Runner. It's like he he runs into 1667 01:43:37.359 --> 01:43:42.399 the tunnel painted onto the brit wall and bounces off 1668 01:43:42.439 --> 01:43:47.039 of it. He's just it's it's just to your point, 1669 01:43:47.119 --> 01:43:49.760 and I'll leaven hear what I'm done. It does really 1670 01:43:49.800 --> 01:43:52.479 reek of a guy who's desperate and like kind of 1671 01:43:52.479 --> 01:43:55.000 shitting his pants and in a full blown panic. 1672 01:43:55.800 --> 01:44:00.920 Yeah. Yeah, he's worried. He's he's seeing his meal ticket disappear. 1673 01:44:01.399 --> 01:44:06.239 That's what it is. And he knows that his meal 1674 01:44:06.279 --> 01:44:12.600 ticket right now is going into Milk Toasts event events 1675 01:44:12.600 --> 01:44:19.119 with milk toast evangelicals who love Israel and who hate 1676 01:44:19.199 --> 01:44:21.760 the woke. And he goes in there and tells them 1677 01:44:21.800 --> 01:44:25.159 some stories about how all of this came from Karl 1678 01:44:25.239 --> 01:44:28.359 Marx and it's all Marxism, so you better be scared 1679 01:44:28.960 --> 01:44:32.119 and because you know that's really dangerous stuff and everything, 1680 01:44:32.159 --> 01:44:35.119 even though it's you know, it's like it I mean, 1681 01:44:35.359 --> 01:44:38.039 it is in practice and it is in thought, but 1682 01:44:38.079 --> 01:44:40.880 it's like, I mean, he's never going to talk about 1683 01:44:40.920 --> 01:44:45.239 the fact that liberalism has no gatekeeping mechanisms that allows 1684 01:44:45.359 --> 01:44:47.840 anything to come you know, Oh, well, you're just going 1685 01:44:47.880 --> 01:44:49.640 to have the marketplace of ideas and you're going to 1686 01:44:49.680 --> 01:44:51.279 come in there. And if you have the marketplace of 1687 01:44:51.319 --> 01:44:54.439 ideas and you're a classical liberal, well, classical liberals are 1688 01:44:54.560 --> 01:45:00.199 not about Schmidtian you know, Schmidtian exceptions and Schmidtian friend enemy. 1689 01:45:00.560 --> 01:45:04.119 So I don't care if a communist gets a job 1690 01:45:04.159 --> 01:45:07.600 at the local university and then another one, and then 1691 01:45:07.640 --> 01:45:11.039 another one and then another one. I mean, he knows 1692 01:45:11.079 --> 01:45:14.640 that this is that liberalism has as much to do 1693 01:45:15.279 --> 01:45:19.319 with the takeover, with this postliberal you know, this post 1694 01:45:19.319 --> 01:45:20.920 war con says, I mean the post wark and sens 1695 01:45:20.960 --> 01:45:25.640 this is liberal. It is liberalism in its final form. 1696 01:45:27.079 --> 01:45:28.920 And well, I mean maybe not its final form. I 1697 01:45:28.920 --> 01:45:30.640 mean it could get worse. So he gets a left 1698 01:45:30.840 --> 01:45:35.479 pure left wing authoritarianism. But what we're seeing now is 1699 01:45:35.479 --> 01:45:40.840 is liberalism. It is we're going down this path and 1700 01:45:41.039 --> 01:45:46.359 we're there's an endpoint. There's an endpoint, but we just 1701 01:45:46.399 --> 01:45:49.199 can't get there. We can't. We just took we took 1702 01:45:49.199 --> 01:45:50.640 a rite. We got to get back on the path. 1703 01:45:50.680 --> 01:45:52.800 What do we gotta do to get pack? And then 1704 01:45:53.039 --> 01:45:57.479 all these other things just sneak in. He just he knows, 1705 01:45:58.119 --> 01:46:02.159 he knows. I'm convinced. He just knows that this classical 1706 01:46:02.199 --> 01:46:05.880 liberalism that he totes because he can't call it what 1707 01:46:05.960 --> 01:46:08.920 he really wants to is which he's a leftist. He 1708 01:46:08.960 --> 01:46:12.920 has said that he would rather the woke left wind 1709 01:46:12.960 --> 01:46:16.800 than than like the West become TRADCAF. Again he's actually 1710 01:46:18.039 --> 01:46:19.840 oh yeah, oh yeah, he said that. Yeah, I can, 1711 01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:22.720 I can pull up the screenshots of it. Yeah. Yeah, 1712 01:46:22.760 --> 01:46:26.000 he would rather the woke left wind. Like someone said, well, 1713 01:46:26.039 --> 01:46:28.279 you know what if it has become TRADCAF. He goes that, 1714 01:46:28.359 --> 01:46:30.399 we're not. I don't want that. I would rather the 1715 01:46:30.520 --> 01:46:34.520 left one. Yeah, he's he's not a friend to right wingers, 1716 01:46:34.760 --> 01:46:38.239 but right wingers are such fucking pussies that they like, 1717 01:46:38.520 --> 01:46:43.840 they have no problem. They're reaching left, well, reaching left 1718 01:46:43.960 --> 01:46:46.920 and punching right. And that's what they've been trained to 1719 01:46:46.960 --> 01:46:51.159 do by the post war consensus. And that's exactly what 1720 01:46:51.239 --> 01:46:53.760 he that's what he's he does, and he's taught a 1721 01:46:53.760 --> 01:46:56.880 bunch of people to do. And unfortunately a lot of 1722 01:46:56.880 --> 01:47:00.960 Evangelical Christianity has just rische. Even a lot of Evangelical 1723 01:47:01.079 --> 01:47:06.800 Christianity is quote quote we lose down here quote, which 1724 01:47:06.840 --> 01:47:12.000 means we can't do anything love our enemies. Never says 1725 01:47:12.039 --> 01:47:16.279 anywhere to love God's enemies. And these are the kind 1726 01:47:16.279 --> 01:47:20.119 of people who in nineteen thirty six in Spain, while 1727 01:47:21.039 --> 01:47:23.159 while priests and nuns are being executed in the streets, 1728 01:47:23.199 --> 01:47:25.039 people would say, no, that's the way it's supposed to be, 1729 01:47:25.039 --> 01:47:27.600 because you know, I mean, we can't fight back. We 1730 01:47:27.640 --> 01:47:28.600 have to love our enemies. 1731 01:47:30.920 --> 01:47:35.960 Yeah, I think it's funny. Again, just one final comment 1732 01:47:36.000 --> 01:47:39.000 on the whole American reformer situation. All kinds of people 1733 01:47:39.000 --> 01:47:44.239 that I didn't really think would line up alongside. It's 1734 01:47:44.239 --> 01:47:46.880 literally like the stone toss meme of like you know, 1735 01:47:46.920 --> 01:47:48.800 the two play the tug over war and then you 1736 01:47:48.800 --> 01:47:51.680 look to your left, who's behind me? It's like suddenly, actually, 1737 01:47:51.720 --> 01:47:53.760 Saint Clair and Mike Cernovich, you're behind you, Like what 1738 01:47:53.800 --> 01:47:58.199 the hell's going on? Like always, people who either are 1739 01:47:58.239 --> 01:48:02.199 really not part of that conversation or their message is 1740 01:48:02.239 --> 01:48:06.800 not really a hyper illiterate message, like in the case 1741 01:48:06.800 --> 01:48:09.680 of Ashley Saint Clair are like, but like, don't you 1742 01:48:09.760 --> 01:48:12.439 think like some of this is like worth considering? Like 1743 01:48:12.479 --> 01:48:15.800 the most milk toast, tepid thing like I think Mike 1744 01:48:16.680 --> 01:48:19.640 either Sargon or Mike Cernovich were both like, yes, but 1745 01:48:19.720 --> 01:48:23.439 his criticisms of capitalism were accurate, Okay, which is one 1746 01:48:23.520 --> 01:48:26.520 line of rebuttal that you could take. And I think 1747 01:48:26.560 --> 01:48:28.840 Ashley Saint Clair was like, yeah, but don't you think 1748 01:48:29.039 --> 01:48:33.039 there's any room at all to criticize the system that 1749 01:48:33.039 --> 01:48:35.800 we're in. It's like, you won't even allow for the 1750 01:48:35.840 --> 01:48:39.439 possibility of self reflection. That's how you know you're the 1751 01:48:39.439 --> 01:48:43.039 bad guy. Dude, Like you won't look like dack cool, 1752 01:48:43.119 --> 01:48:45.479 you won't look into the mirror. That's how we know 1753 01:48:45.680 --> 01:48:48.800 you're the bad guy. You have no reflection. We know 1754 01:48:48.920 --> 01:48:52.880 you're the bad guy. I'm inclined to think and this 1755 01:48:52.960 --> 01:48:58.520 is maybe armchair psychoanalyzing, and just because of these are 1756 01:48:58.520 --> 01:49:01.319 things I've seen pop up on Twitter in the last 1757 01:49:01.319 --> 01:49:07.600 few days, I'm inclined to think that he gets you know, nobody, 1758 01:49:07.640 --> 01:49:10.359 nobody blow up my DMS or send me an affidavit 1759 01:49:10.439 --> 01:49:12.560 or anything. I'm inclined to think he gets up to 1760 01:49:12.640 --> 01:49:16.720 some weird purp stuff. You know, somebody posted a picture 1761 01:49:16.760 --> 01:49:20.239 of him taking a selfie, like in the nude, with 1762 01:49:20.479 --> 01:49:25.119 like a potted plant precariously positioned where his genitals are. 1763 01:49:25.199 --> 01:49:27.520 It's like, so you put that on the internet, man, 1764 01:49:28.199 --> 01:49:32.199 like there is something wrong with you. And the thing 1765 01:49:32.239 --> 01:49:37.159 about like even his social media personality, it says something 1766 01:49:37.199 --> 01:49:39.479 to me like this is kind of a dysfunctional person 1767 01:49:39.680 --> 01:49:43.239 because he's on triggernometry and he starts off, you know, 1768 01:49:43.399 --> 01:49:46.840 Constantine kiss and asks him what is the woke right 1769 01:49:47.760 --> 01:49:51.880 and James Lindsay starts kind of apologetically like, gee, you know, 1770 01:49:53.079 --> 01:49:56.239 maybe I've used woke to liberally. It might not be 1771 01:49:56.359 --> 01:49:58.760 the best word. So he's like a kind of human 1772 01:49:58.800 --> 01:50:01.399 being a little bit the start of that interview, and 1773 01:50:01.439 --> 01:50:04.119 then you watch him on Twitter and he posts like 1774 01:50:04.159 --> 01:50:06.199 he's a fourteen year old. 1775 01:50:06.800 --> 01:50:08.520 And everything is really just edge alarding. 1776 01:50:09.239 --> 01:50:13.319 Yeah, it's like this is not an actually mature adult man, 1777 01:50:14.560 --> 01:50:20.279 and that's the type of person that the establishment has left. 1778 01:50:20.720 --> 01:50:24.680 Like these like they're reserve troops. This is like calling in, 1779 01:50:24.840 --> 01:50:27.239 I don't know, the National Guard. And it's like the 1780 01:50:27.720 --> 01:50:31.560 fat guy from the bar with like terrible diabetes and 1781 01:50:31.600 --> 01:50:34.880 his legs are all swollen up. It's like they they're 1782 01:50:34.880 --> 01:50:38.039 not sending their best. Okay, they're not sending their best. 1783 01:50:38.720 --> 01:50:41.079 Well, you know, what's what else is interesting about the 1784 01:50:41.079 --> 01:50:45.000 post war consensus is that it's while they are sneaking 1785 01:50:45.039 --> 01:50:49.960 in a lot of like social Marxism. If you if 1786 01:50:49.960 --> 01:50:52.520 you use any kind of critique or if you agree 1787 01:50:52.560 --> 01:50:56.640 at all with Marx or Lenin or anybody of that ilk, 1788 01:50:57.359 --> 01:50:59.279 if you say, oh, well, you know, they made a 1789 01:50:59.319 --> 01:51:03.279 really good point hear about industrial society and capitalism. I 1790 01:51:03.279 --> 01:51:09.640 saw this today. They were talking about this kid, an 1791 01:51:09.640 --> 01:51:12.840 Italian anarchist who's assassinating people in the streets. Again, what 1792 01:51:13.159 --> 01:51:19.800 year is this. The they were saying, Oh, well, he's 1793 01:51:19.920 --> 01:51:23.800 like really into like Ted Kazinski and everything like that. 1794 01:51:23.880 --> 01:51:26.760 I'm like, and they're like, oh, that means he's a leftist. 1795 01:51:26.800 --> 01:51:31.800 That's what the Jews from Libs of TikTok said, So, 1796 01:51:31.840 --> 01:51:33.920 oh that means he's a leftist. I'm like, have you 1797 01:51:33.960 --> 01:51:37.600 read Ted Kazinski. The whole first thirty seven parts of 1798 01:51:37.600 --> 01:51:40.960 that is him completely shitting on the left. And then 1799 01:51:41.000 --> 01:51:46.399 he explains why technological society, why what it's done to 1800 01:51:46.520 --> 01:51:48.359 our psyche and what has done to us and what 1801 01:51:48.399 --> 01:51:51.880 has done to our nature, And to argue against that, 1802 01:51:52.239 --> 01:51:58.880 you're retarded. So it's like, you can what the post 1803 01:51:58.880 --> 01:52:01.039 war consensus says is, oh, we're gonna sneak all this 1804 01:52:01.159 --> 01:52:04.079 Marxism in here, in this socialism here, and basically you know, 1805 01:52:04.279 --> 01:52:06.600 and Marxism in a way, we're going to strip away family. 1806 01:52:06.680 --> 01:52:09.600 We're gonna we want you to become the liberal, the 1807 01:52:10.239 --> 01:52:14.279 post war consensus man and woman and everything. But if 1808 01:52:14.279 --> 01:52:16.840 you agree at all where you say, well, I think 1809 01:52:16.920 --> 01:52:19.640 marx and the German ideology made some really good points 1810 01:52:19.640 --> 01:52:23.479 about what's happening to society, Well then you're a Marxist. 1811 01:52:23.520 --> 01:52:27.640 It's like, wait a minute, but you're promoting you're promoting 1812 01:52:27.720 --> 01:52:31.479 shit that's almost almost literally Marxist, and we have it 1813 01:52:31.520 --> 01:52:34.920 in our society and we've pointed it out. And what now. 1814 01:52:37.239 --> 01:52:39.520 So you can't even win with these people because it's 1815 01:52:39.520 --> 01:52:41.920 like you can't. You they can have it one way, 1816 01:52:41.920 --> 01:52:43.760 but they can have it both ways. You can't. 1817 01:52:45.439 --> 01:52:47.720 That's the power of that again, it's the power of 1818 01:52:47.760 --> 01:52:51.000 being a regime polemicist. You said, the rules, you establish 1819 01:52:51.119 --> 01:52:55.039 the frame, You determine what pieces are in play, what 1820 01:52:55.079 --> 01:53:00.399 pieces aren't in play, what's hypocritical, what isn't. Just kind 1821 01:53:00.399 --> 01:53:04.800 of go back to the parallel between Hofstadder and James Lindsay, 1822 01:53:04.840 --> 01:53:07.399 between woke right and the paranoid style, you know, one 1823 01:53:07.439 --> 01:53:10.039 of these other things, and I think it's exemple it 1824 01:53:10.479 --> 01:53:15.399 demonstrates what you're just talking about, is the way things 1825 01:53:15.439 --> 01:53:22.079 that there's kind of self evidently farcical or hypocritical are 1826 01:53:22.279 --> 01:53:27.039 used in this polemical, pejorative way. So one of the 1827 01:53:27.079 --> 01:53:30.039 key arguments that Lindsay puts forward is that the woke 1828 01:53:30.159 --> 01:53:33.239 right behaves just like the woke left. Like this is 1829 01:53:33.319 --> 01:53:35.800 kind of like this is one half of his entire argument. 1830 01:53:36.199 --> 01:53:39.960 He says there's an ideological component. He says that there's 1831 01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:43.880 a practical component, and the practical component is how we 1832 01:53:43.960 --> 01:53:49.479 behave we behave the same as the woke left. We 1833 01:53:49.680 --> 01:53:53.439 use social media the same way we believe in an 1834 01:53:53.439 --> 01:53:56.439 oppressed oppress or dialectic the same way. I'm gonna actually 1835 01:53:56.439 --> 01:54:00.000 try to pull up some of the examples he use, 1836 01:54:00.199 --> 01:54:03.520 is here, sure? So yeah, He says that they create 1837 01:54:03.880 --> 01:54:07.279 an illusion that there's support for one thing and distaste 1838 01:54:07.279 --> 01:54:10.079 for another. He says that you know, both are highly 1839 01:54:10.119 --> 01:54:15.119 invested in identity politics, and he says that ultimately, what 1840 01:54:15.119 --> 01:54:18.000 what what else can you call this but woke? And 1841 01:54:18.039 --> 01:54:22.199 so therefore there's this complete you know what he's what 1842 01:54:22.279 --> 01:54:26.960 he thinks he's done, is eliminated any difference between Pete 1843 01:54:27.000 --> 01:54:35.079 Canonas and Josh Neil Versus. I look Slava, Bernie Sanders, 1844 01:54:35.840 --> 01:54:42.319 Alexandria Ocasio Cortes, uh Man Jail, whether he's our anarchist 1845 01:54:42.399 --> 01:54:45.560 or not or whatever, like, actually there's still are There 1846 01:54:45.640 --> 01:54:48.640 still are fundamental differences, even if you can point to 1847 01:54:48.960 --> 01:54:52.720 superficial similarities. So this is another thing that there's a 1848 01:54:52.800 --> 01:54:57.159 there's a very telling passage in the paranoid style of 1849 01:54:57.159 --> 01:55:03.760 of in American politics where to dispel the to kind 1850 01:55:03.760 --> 01:55:07.199 of like defang this what he calls pseudo conservatism. He 1851 01:55:07.319 --> 01:55:11.840 points to the rivalries of right wing conspiratorial groups and 1852 01:55:11.880 --> 01:55:15.920 shows how that they are identical to their opposition. So 1853 01:55:15.960 --> 01:55:19.840 he talks about the KKK, and he says, well, you know, 1854 01:55:21.039 --> 01:55:25.359 they wore priestly uniforms, just like the Catholics, and they 1855 01:55:25.479 --> 01:55:30.600 had this strict hierarchical structure, just like the Catholics. So 1856 01:55:30.720 --> 01:55:33.680 actually their rivalry is kind of like this petty envy 1857 01:55:33.960 --> 01:55:37.079 and it's totally illegitimate and they're just paranoid. Never mind 1858 01:55:37.119 --> 01:55:39.680 the fact that the KKK were made up of a 1859 01:55:39.720 --> 01:55:44.039 specific group of people from a specific place, operating under 1860 01:55:44.039 --> 01:55:47.359 a specific political pretext with a very particular set of 1861 01:55:47.359 --> 01:55:50.239 goals for themselves. And you know, the Catholic Church is 1862 01:55:51.399 --> 01:55:55.640 the Catholic Church like not the same thing, right or that. 1863 01:55:56.039 --> 01:56:00.000 He uses the example of the John Birch Society versus 1864 01:56:00.079 --> 01:56:02.880 is you know, this communist spook, and he says, isn't 1865 01:56:02.880 --> 01:56:06.399 it really remarkable that they both fight a zero sum 1866 01:56:06.479 --> 01:56:11.920 ideological war. It's like, okay, so they're both really committed 1867 01:56:12.000 --> 01:56:15.359 to the ideas that they have. Therefore, there's no difference 1868 01:56:15.560 --> 01:56:18.640 at all between you know, mom and pop from down 1869 01:56:18.720 --> 01:56:20.880 the street who give their one hundred dollars every month 1870 01:56:21.239 --> 01:56:25.319 to the John Birch Society and communist organizers who are 1871 01:56:25.359 --> 01:56:30.119 like burning down houses and whatever. He also gives the 1872 01:56:30.159 --> 01:56:35.760 example of Christians Christian anti communists versus communists, and the 1873 01:56:35.800 --> 01:56:38.720 exact phrase here, just let me pull it up. It's 1874 01:56:38.760 --> 01:56:45.920 so goofy one second, okay, So he says, you know, 1875 01:56:46.039 --> 01:56:51.800 Christian anti communists were intellectually and spiritually vigorous like their 1876 01:56:51.880 --> 01:56:58.159 Communist foes. They admired the vigor of their Communist opponents 1877 01:56:58.520 --> 01:57:01.039 and they tried to emulate it. And that's how we 1878 01:57:01.119 --> 01:57:04.279 know that there's no actual rivalry here. That the right 1879 01:57:04.319 --> 01:57:07.600 wingers are just parented by the way, there's never any 1880 01:57:07.680 --> 01:57:11.920 actual kind of antagonization or examination of the left wing 1881 01:57:11.960 --> 01:57:14.399 people on that side of the Communists are just like 1882 01:57:14.840 --> 01:57:17.720 kind of unimpeachable to Richard hobs. 1883 01:57:19.319 --> 01:57:21.600 Goughlin and Justice Stalin same person. 1884 01:57:22.479 --> 01:57:26.119 Yeah, it's commons. You would even think that a guy 1885 01:57:26.159 --> 01:57:30.640 who had formally disavowed his Communism and like shredded up 1886 01:57:30.680 --> 01:57:34.760 his Communist party, you know, uh credit card or whatever, 1887 01:57:35.199 --> 01:57:42.039 might have like an interest in publishing even just to 1888 01:57:42.039 --> 01:57:47.359 say face publishing like even tepidly communist critiques, just to 1889 01:57:47.520 --> 01:57:50.960 distance himself and the public perception he's created. But no, 1890 01:57:51.000 --> 01:57:53.000 he doesn't. He's the same thing with Carl Popper, not 1891 01:57:53.079 --> 01:57:56.199 to get off on a tangent, although I guess with 1892 01:57:56.239 --> 01:57:59.199 Carl Popper later on in his career he did become 1893 01:57:59.319 --> 01:58:03.560 more critical of communism. But Carl Popper's another again architect 1894 01:58:03.600 --> 01:58:06.680 of the post war consensus. Literally the Open Society Foundation 1895 01:58:07.319 --> 01:58:09.279 is based on the title of his book, and he 1896 01:58:09.319 --> 01:58:10.920 was a mentor of George Soros. 1897 01:58:11.399 --> 01:58:13.920 Was not even didn't he come up with the term 1898 01:58:14.159 --> 01:58:15.079 conspiracy theorist. 1899 01:58:17.319 --> 01:58:21.119 He wrote an essay called the Conspiracy Theory of Society, Right, 1900 01:58:21.119 --> 01:58:24.920 I don't know if he coined these, but that's a 1901 01:58:24.960 --> 01:58:27.199 great essay, by the way, very very ridiculous stuff that 1902 01:58:27.199 --> 01:58:31.720 he puts in it. But another guy who, like in 1903 01:58:31.760 --> 01:58:34.720 a previous life was a communist, And when he does 1904 01:58:34.760 --> 01:58:40.640 his big brained intellectual defense of liberalism, really only has 1905 01:58:40.680 --> 01:58:43.399 time to talk about how bad fascists are, how bad 1906 01:58:43.520 --> 01:58:47.199 nativists are, how bad Nazis are, how bad populists are, 1907 01:58:47.520 --> 01:58:51.720 how bad nationalists are. It's like, guy, you were with 1908 01:58:51.760 --> 01:58:54.600 the communists and you almost got killed by them, and 1909 01:58:54.600 --> 01:58:57.520 you can't even give me a sentence about how bad 1910 01:58:57.760 --> 01:59:01.079 that is. And again I'm being a little bit hyperbolic 1911 01:59:01.199 --> 01:59:04.159 because he does talk about marks in the open society 1912 01:59:04.199 --> 01:59:07.079 and his enemies, but most of that book is spent 1913 01:59:07.359 --> 01:59:12.000 slagging nativism. It's spent slagging the closed society, which would be, 1914 01:59:12.079 --> 01:59:14.680 you know, a nation that protects his borders and has 1915 01:59:14.760 --> 01:59:18.079 law and order and has a you know, vaguely authoritarian, 1916 01:59:18.600 --> 01:59:23.279 hierarchical political structure. So I mean, these guys just telling themselves, 1917 01:59:23.279 --> 01:59:24.000 it's remarkable. 1918 01:59:24.520 --> 01:59:31.239 Yeah, And there's really I think at this point to 1919 01:59:31.399 --> 01:59:36.479 argue with him, is you're giving them legitimacy, because I 1920 01:59:36.640 --> 01:59:41.760 don't know that. Yeah, if you look at how many 1921 01:59:42.159 --> 01:59:45.760 followers he has on Twitter, and people say, oh, Twitter 1922 01:59:45.800 --> 01:59:48.399 isn't real life. People said that like eight nine years ago, 1923 01:59:48.800 --> 01:59:50.920 Oh Twitter has become real life because it really is 1924 01:59:50.920 --> 01:59:54.039 the public square. So yeah, you look at how many 1925 01:59:54.079 --> 01:59:56.600 followers he has. You look at if he posts something. 1926 01:59:57.039 --> 02:00:00.720 If he posts something about classical liberalism, he's lucky to 1927 02:00:00.760 --> 02:00:04.399 get like the amount of likes. He's lucky to get 1928 02:00:04.439 --> 02:00:06.800 ten percent of the likes of like a meme account 1929 02:00:07.039 --> 02:00:10.000 just posting a meme. But when he posts about stuff 1930 02:00:10.000 --> 02:00:13.119 like this, he may get like double that. And all 1931 02:00:13.159 --> 02:00:18.199 that tells you is that no one's buying this. The 1932 02:00:18.560 --> 02:00:21.600 only people who are really going along with it are 1933 02:00:21.640 --> 02:00:27.479 people who are so bought into his worldview. And let's 1934 02:00:27.520 --> 02:00:30.520 face it, yeah, I was talking about this with a 1935 02:00:30.520 --> 02:00:33.680 friend of mine on his show this afternoon. Is that 1936 02:00:35.199 --> 02:00:38.239 a lot of people who get into a quote unquote movement, 1937 02:00:39.640 --> 02:00:43.680 they're just looking for God. They're looking for their God. 1938 02:00:44.319 --> 02:00:50.000 And if somebody is like really into oh, classical liberalism 1939 02:00:50.119 --> 02:00:53.960 and anti woke, James Lindsay can become their God really quick. 1940 02:00:54.000 --> 02:00:58.439 If you're really into like free market economics, Ludwig von 1941 02:00:58.520 --> 02:01:03.239 Mises can become your or got really quickly, and that's 1942 02:01:03.279 --> 02:01:05.840 just basically what we're seeing. I mean, I don't know 1943 02:01:07.119 --> 02:01:12.199 really if you had to guess, do you think James 1944 02:01:12.239 --> 02:01:17.359 Lindsay has any kind of influence on the incoming Trump regime? 1945 02:01:19.159 --> 02:01:21.279 None at all, I would assume. Then he complain that 1946 02:01:21.319 --> 02:01:23.720 like they literally didn't even ask me, Like I think 1947 02:01:23.760 --> 02:01:26.039 he said something to that effect on Twitter, like no 1948 02:01:26.079 --> 02:01:27.159 one's calling. 1949 02:01:26.840 --> 02:01:32.000 Me, why would why what are you going to tell them? 1950 02:01:32.079 --> 02:01:35.000 What are you going to advise them on? What I mean, 1951 02:01:35.039 --> 02:01:41.520 if you're if your goal? Trump has said, Look, I 1952 02:01:41.560 --> 02:01:43.359 think most people are at the point where it's like, 1953 02:01:43.720 --> 02:01:46.520 just get rid of all the get rid of all 1954 02:01:46.560 --> 02:01:50.800 the the illegal immigrants. If he got rid of you know, 1955 02:01:51.239 --> 02:01:53.720 half of the illegal immigrants in the in this country 1956 02:01:53.760 --> 02:01:57.319 at this point, that would just be a win. Because 1957 02:01:57.439 --> 02:02:02.640 I mean, no one's expecting and no one really expecting success. 1958 02:02:03.079 --> 02:02:05.479 No one who's realistic, no one who understands how the 1959 02:02:05.479 --> 02:02:08.760 administrative state works, how the post war consensus works, is 1960 02:02:08.800 --> 02:02:15.199 really expecting an insane amount of success. But I mean, 1961 02:02:17.520 --> 02:02:19.239 is he going to be for that? How does he 1962 02:02:19.239 --> 02:02:23.000 help that? How does he help like say Doze say 1963 02:02:23.000 --> 02:02:28.560 this Doge outfit does start dismantling the managerial estate, managerial state. 1964 02:02:29.279 --> 02:02:32.960 That's what he's fighting for. So why is he complaining 1965 02:02:32.960 --> 02:02:35.760 about what? Is he expecting them to invite them in 1966 02:02:35.800 --> 02:02:38.800 there so he can tell them everything that they're doing wrong, 1967 02:02:39.039 --> 02:02:41.239 because we have to keep doing We just have to 1968 02:02:41.239 --> 02:02:46.760 go back to the nineties. Bro I heard was so Amari? 1969 02:02:47.880 --> 02:02:52.239 And which one is so Habo Mari? He's the one? 1970 02:02:52.840 --> 02:02:53.479 Is he Claremont? 1971 02:02:54.840 --> 02:02:57.720 What I think he's Is he an editor for Compact? 1972 02:02:59.279 --> 02:03:05.560 Yeah? Who's like? Is he associated with Claremont? I can't remember, 1973 02:03:06.039 --> 02:03:09.359 but I think yeah. So. And he was talking to 1974 02:03:09.439 --> 02:03:13.319 Dave Rubin and this was three or four years ago, 1975 02:03:13.680 --> 02:03:16.199 and when I was just listening to everything and now 1976 02:03:16.199 --> 02:03:18.600 I just can't listen to everything. And they were talking 1977 02:03:18.600 --> 02:03:20.720 about how they we need to go back ten years. 1978 02:03:21.880 --> 02:03:25.199 This all started falling apart ten years ago. And I'm like, 1979 02:03:26.720 --> 02:03:32.239 who's asking Who listens to that and takes that seriously? 1980 02:03:33.359 --> 02:03:36.720 Who says, in like in twenty twenty one that we 1981 02:03:36.760 --> 02:03:39.079 just need to go back to twenty eleven? What we 1982 02:03:39.119 --> 02:03:40.840 need to go back to ab the ending of Barack 1983 02:03:40.840 --> 02:03:45.800 Obama's first term. But these people are retarded, and I'm 1984 02:03:45.960 --> 02:03:49.159 fully convinced. I become convinced of this more than I 1985 02:03:50.119 --> 02:03:53.920 the longer I do this. These people are just trying 1986 02:03:53.920 --> 02:03:57.800 to keep a job. There's just they're just saying the 1987 02:03:57.800 --> 02:04:01.920 things that they need to stay in their job. If 1988 02:04:01.920 --> 02:04:04.600 they were to deviate one bit, they'd get fired. They'd 1989 02:04:04.640 --> 02:04:07.720 have to go somewhere else, they'd have to Why would 1990 02:04:07.720 --> 02:04:10.399 you change your opinions on Why would you all of 1991 02:04:10.439 --> 02:04:13.520 a sudden become a Karl Schmidt fan? You know when 1992 02:04:13.560 --> 02:04:17.439 you've been when you've been a John Locke, when you've 1993 02:04:17.439 --> 02:04:22.560 been promoting lockey in philosophy your whole life, especially if 1994 02:04:22.560 --> 02:04:26.319 you're making your living off of it, you're cutting your 1995 02:04:26.319 --> 02:04:30.640 income off. That's why Lindsay. That's why Lindsay's acting the 1996 02:04:30.640 --> 02:04:35.560 way he is is because he's his income. He's seeing 1997 02:04:36.039 --> 02:04:40.439 his potential downfall and more than that, not being invited 1998 02:04:40.479 --> 02:04:44.359 to be on the stage anymore. And he's one of 1999 02:04:44.359 --> 02:04:45.600 those people who can't take that. 2000 02:04:47.880 --> 02:04:51.880 I know all this. I was thinking the exact words 2001 02:04:52.119 --> 02:04:55.439 you were saying as you were saying them, Which is 2002 02:04:55.479 --> 02:04:58.359 that a big part of getting involved with this in 2003 02:04:58.359 --> 02:05:01.119 this scene for me has been realizing some of us 2004 02:05:01.199 --> 02:05:05.279 are fighting for ideals and outcomes, and some of us 2005 02:05:05.319 --> 02:05:09.319 are fighting for paychecks. So that's very astute, totally co 2006 02:05:09.479 --> 02:05:13.600 signed that. As far as Sorabamari is concerned, I do 2007 02:05:13.680 --> 02:05:17.479 believe he's connected with Claremont. He was the editor of 2008 02:05:17.520 --> 02:05:21.199 Compact and Commentary. He is the editor of Compact now. 2009 02:05:21.640 --> 02:05:25.359 He was previously the editor of Commentary, and I do 2010 02:05:25.399 --> 02:05:28.680 think he was like a Claremont fellow or something. But yeah, 2011 02:05:28.720 --> 02:05:31.279 I mean, yeah, it's not surprising that these people would 2012 02:05:31.319 --> 02:05:35.560 want to go back to the period when their sinecure 2013 02:05:35.680 --> 02:05:37.640 first opened up. Like, yeah, I want to go back 2014 02:05:37.680 --> 02:05:40.000 to ten years ago when you open the floodgates and 2015 02:05:40.039 --> 02:05:44.920 gave me, you know, a lifetime job at gay Boy Inc. 2016 02:05:45.399 --> 02:05:49.640 Or whatever, you know, like publishing bullshit dot com. Like yes, please, 2017 02:05:49.680 --> 02:05:51.600 I want to go back to that time so that 2018 02:05:51.640 --> 02:05:55.159 I can have that job. I don't know that I 2019 02:05:55.199 --> 02:05:57.439 have anything else to say on that point other than 2020 02:05:59.359 --> 02:06:04.479 when you asked, like, what influence would James Lindsay have 2021 02:06:04.640 --> 02:06:07.520 on the incoming Trump administration? I immediately thought of that 2022 02:06:07.680 --> 02:06:12.000 really weird anti Saint Michael bit He was on like, 2023 02:06:12.199 --> 02:06:14.399 so imagine you're Donald Trump, Like you can't even get 2024 02:06:14.439 --> 02:06:17.479 a tweet out the front door with that James lindsay, like, 2025 02:06:18.720 --> 02:06:22.000 excuse me, this is really a big problem and you 2026 02:06:22.079 --> 02:06:24.279 need to stop doing it. It's like, Okay, this guy 2027 02:06:24.359 --> 02:06:27.279 is trying to like kick forty million people out the 2028 02:06:27.279 --> 02:06:32.119 front door, and you're raising a stink over at Tweet like, yeah, 2029 02:06:32.399 --> 02:06:35.600 you don't actually have a place here, and uh and 2030 02:06:35.640 --> 02:06:37.560 don't let the door hit you on the way out. 2031 02:06:37.920 --> 02:06:41.239 He was wrong about Arn McIntyre being the guy behind that. 2032 02:06:41.960 --> 02:06:43.760 I'm the one with the saint. I'm the one with 2033 02:06:43.840 --> 02:06:47.000 the saint. Michael coyn right next to me when I uh, 2034 02:06:48.199 --> 02:06:49.479 when I podcast. 2035 02:06:49.000 --> 02:06:51.439 It was you, it was you all along a ha ha. 2036 02:06:52.720 --> 02:06:56.840 Tell everybody about your book on conspiracy theories necessarily conspiracy theories. 2037 02:06:57.920 --> 02:07:00.000 Yes, so yeah, last time we were on we talked 2038 02:07:00.039 --> 02:07:04.199 about American extremist imperium Press, the chapter on individualism and 2039 02:07:04.239 --> 02:07:08.880 socialism or sociopathy rather. Yeah, my book came out in 2040 02:07:08.880 --> 02:07:11.479 February of this year. It's actually part one of two, 2041 02:07:12.079 --> 02:07:14.479 and the new book is coming out early next year. 2042 02:07:14.520 --> 02:07:19.560 But understanding conspiracy Theories, I had worked on it for 2043 02:07:19.600 --> 02:07:24.560 like five years. It's half of everything I have to 2044 02:07:24.560 --> 02:07:27.560 say about the subject matter. But yeah, I came into 2045 02:07:27.640 --> 02:07:33.199 nationalism through the conspiracy content if you want to stay online. 2046 02:07:33.640 --> 02:07:37.960 You know, I read all the Jim Mars books I read. 2047 02:07:38.079 --> 02:07:40.239 You know, I listened to Alex Jones. I watched his 2048 02:07:40.359 --> 02:07:43.159 documentaries on the police State. I listened to Coast to 2049 02:07:43.279 --> 02:07:47.239 Coast I watched I was a young person, a very 2050 02:07:47.239 --> 02:07:51.439 young person, when loose change and Zeitgeist were like the 2051 02:07:51.560 --> 02:07:57.359 thing on the internets, and it was really harrowing, honestly 2052 02:07:57.800 --> 02:08:00.399 to like develop a content like to be I'm a 2053 02:08:00.520 --> 02:08:05.079 man hormonally and like mentally, at the same time you're 2054 02:08:05.119 --> 02:08:09.760 being hit with this incredible technology called the Internet and 2055 02:08:10.000 --> 02:08:13.520 all of the information we have available to the human species. 2056 02:08:13.920 --> 02:08:15.880 So you know, I'm and of course I grew up 2057 02:08:15.880 --> 02:08:18.199 with nine to eleven. Like I remember the day the 2058 02:08:18.279 --> 02:08:21.600 towers hit. I was sitting in my sophomore biology class 2059 02:08:22.039 --> 02:08:24.840 with the cute redhead teacher at my Catholic high school 2060 02:08:25.560 --> 02:08:29.600 and being pulled out of the classroom thinking that my 2061 02:08:29.640 --> 02:08:31.560 father was dead. You know. So like these are all 2062 02:08:31.600 --> 02:08:35.279 deeply like and there's hundreds of thousands of people, millions 2063 02:08:35.319 --> 02:08:37.520 of people with the story just like that. So it's 2064 02:08:37.520 --> 02:08:40.079 not my pity story that I'm saying to your audience. 2065 02:08:41.600 --> 02:08:44.079 Lots of people have stories like that. I Yeah, I 2066 02:08:44.079 --> 02:08:47.079 grew up in New York City. That was the formation 2067 02:08:47.159 --> 02:08:50.600 of my consciousness. I remember when you could go on 2068 02:08:50.640 --> 02:08:54.319 an airplane and it was nice, And I remember a 2069 02:08:54.319 --> 02:08:56.960 couple of years later when you went on an airplane 2070 02:08:56.960 --> 02:09:01.159 and a morbidly obese Haitian person grabbed yours Like I 2071 02:09:01.319 --> 02:09:09.720 lived through that. Okay, So the Patriot Act and everything 2072 02:09:09.760 --> 02:09:14.760 that followed from that. So the idea of of and 2073 02:09:14.800 --> 02:09:17.800 now we're living in this moment where conspiracy theories are 2074 02:09:18.239 --> 02:09:19.960 kind of like a thing you can cash in on. 2075 02:09:20.359 --> 02:09:23.239 It's like a career. You can be an all media 2076 02:09:23.359 --> 02:09:26.680 guy with a TikTok account doing the whole you know, 2077 02:09:26.760 --> 02:09:30.359 your your blurry face in front of like a text 2078 02:09:30.399 --> 02:09:33.399 scroll going isn't this look at this and this kind 2079 02:09:33.399 --> 02:09:35.000 ofct and here and here. It's like you can do 2080 02:09:35.039 --> 02:09:37.840 that as a career. And fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, 2081 02:09:38.199 --> 02:09:41.119 if you did that, you were a pariah, you were medicated, 2082 02:09:41.600 --> 02:09:44.399 you were kicked out of polite society. So it took 2083 02:09:44.520 --> 02:09:49.359 me coming into this nationalist community learning a few new 2084 02:09:49.399 --> 02:09:54.520 things that mainstream conspiracy culture from ten years ago didn't 2085 02:09:54.560 --> 02:09:58.560 let you in on. People like Michael Collins Piper, like 2086 02:09:58.640 --> 02:10:01.359 if I had known about Michael as Piper fifteen years ago, 2087 02:10:01.439 --> 02:10:03.399 it would have saved me a lot of trouble. I 2088 02:10:03.479 --> 02:10:05.600 didn't learn about him until like two and a half 2089 02:10:05.680 --> 02:10:09.920 years ago, and it's like, oh, well, this guy. It's 2090 02:10:09.960 --> 02:10:13.199 not like the skeleton key that literally unlocks everything, but 2091 02:10:13.399 --> 02:10:16.960 it clears up a lot of stuff. So I think 2092 02:10:17.000 --> 02:10:21.239 the thing that's really that at my selling point for 2093 02:10:21.279 --> 02:10:25.680 the book is the the there's a neutral way to 2094 02:10:25.720 --> 02:10:29.920 think about conspiracy theories because we're now in this point 2095 02:10:29.960 --> 02:10:33.479 where people of a certain age like that is who 2096 02:10:33.520 --> 02:10:37.479 their identity is. It's like I just am a conspiracy theorist, right, 2097 02:10:38.039 --> 02:10:41.960 And there's it's very difficult to think clearly because there's 2098 02:10:42.039 --> 02:10:45.399 sort there's sort of this heuristic in the conspiracy theory 2099 02:10:45.399 --> 02:10:51.520 community where because you had this skepticism about things that 2100 02:10:51.600 --> 02:10:54.479 happened in the past, you have this sort of like 2101 02:10:54.560 --> 02:10:58.880 gnostic pure knowledge of everything that's happening now and conspiracy 2102 02:10:58.880 --> 02:11:01.640 Oh it's this is a false flag, just like what 2103 02:11:01.680 --> 02:11:05.479 I saw ten years ago. There are heuristics that work, 2104 02:11:05.600 --> 02:11:07.920 and then they are heuristics that don't work. And so 2105 02:11:08.199 --> 02:11:09.880 like what I was trying to do with this book 2106 02:11:10.000 --> 02:11:13.920 was try to establish Okay, really, what is a conspiracy theory? 2107 02:11:15.960 --> 02:11:20.399 How does it work? Why is everyone today in this 2108 02:11:21.439 --> 02:11:27.800 hyper vigilant, paranoid, neurotic mindset where there is a conspiracy 2109 02:11:27.880 --> 02:11:32.720 lurking or i should say, an illegitimate conspiracy lurking behind 2110 02:11:32.760 --> 02:11:37.960 every door. Ten years ago, if you were a liberal Democrat, 2111 02:11:38.359 --> 02:11:40.520 the big bad and it actually has been the same 2112 02:11:40.560 --> 02:11:43.680 conspiracy theory for the last ten years. The big conspiracy 2113 02:11:44.000 --> 02:11:50.279 was Russia, Russian bots, Russian hacking coutin Donald Trump got 2114 02:11:50.399 --> 02:11:53.840 urinated on by a prostitute in a Russian hotel, and 2115 02:11:53.880 --> 02:11:56.079 that's the blackmail they've got. Sorry to be lewde with 2116 02:11:56.119 --> 02:11:58.680 you and your audience, but you know, maybe if you've 2117 02:11:58.720 --> 02:12:00.720 got young people in your audience, they didn't know that 2118 02:12:00.720 --> 02:12:04.159 that happened. If you were going through the first Trump campaign, 2119 02:12:04.359 --> 02:12:07.039 like that was the October surprise and we're all just 2120 02:12:07.079 --> 02:12:11.279 sitting here like are you kidding me? So the basic 2121 02:12:11.319 --> 02:12:16.600 punchline here is a conspiracy theory effectively is a folk 2122 02:12:16.680 --> 02:12:19.800 account of history. It's you and me trying to figure 2123 02:12:19.840 --> 02:12:23.319 out what's actually happening, without the benefit of a PhD, 2124 02:12:23.880 --> 02:12:27.800 without the benefit of a Walter Cronkite, without the benefit 2125 02:12:27.880 --> 02:12:32.840 of some expert or authority, a regime a James Lindsay, 2126 02:12:33.119 --> 02:12:38.119 a regime approved personality who can disseminate a coherent narrative 2127 02:12:38.239 --> 02:12:40.359 to us so that we can go back to sleep 2128 02:12:40.680 --> 02:12:42.880 and then go to work and then pet you know, 2129 02:12:42.920 --> 02:12:44.960 a little Pete junior on the head and send them 2130 02:12:44.960 --> 02:12:47.359 off to soccer practice, you know, the things that make 2131 02:12:47.760 --> 02:12:50.840 our day to day life livable. So what you really 2132 02:12:50.880 --> 02:12:55.399 have is that this folk history and then regime history, 2133 02:12:56.119 --> 02:12:59.000 and there's this tension between the two. So I talk 2134 02:12:59.039 --> 02:13:01.079 a lot about that. I bring in a lot of 2135 02:13:01.119 --> 02:13:04.640 Marshall mccluan to talk about how the Internet has created 2136 02:13:04.720 --> 02:13:10.359 this unique paranoid culture. That gentleman he was on Joe Rogan. 2137 02:13:10.439 --> 02:13:15.840 He popularized the phrase mass formation psychosis. You know, that's 2138 02:13:15.920 --> 02:13:18.640 been one of these phrases to explain kind of why 2139 02:13:18.680 --> 02:13:24.039 everyone is so crazy and why everyone is so distrusting 2140 02:13:24.319 --> 02:13:26.800 of the things that they see and the people that 2141 02:13:26.840 --> 02:13:30.439 they live around. I don't think we actually need novel language. 2142 02:13:30.479 --> 02:13:33.600 I don't think we need, if anything, this book does 2143 02:13:33.960 --> 02:13:36.520 very similarly what my first book did, which was like 2144 02:13:36.840 --> 02:13:39.880 take the psychology out of it, take the psychiatry out 2145 02:13:39.880 --> 02:13:41.680 of it. Because as I make the point with the 2146 02:13:41.760 --> 02:13:47.439 you know, Jim, Lindsay and Hofstad are the psychology that's 2147 02:13:47.479 --> 02:13:50.039 been used to make sense of our political life has 2148 02:13:50.159 --> 02:13:55.640 made it worse because it isn't a psychological problem. Intrinsically, 2149 02:13:56.159 --> 02:14:02.000 it's a political problem. It's a social, cultural, civilizational, historical problem. 2150 02:14:02.399 --> 02:14:05.640 We're dealing with real things, not just artifacts of the mind, 2151 02:14:06.199 --> 02:14:07.920 and we need to be able to treat it that way. 2152 02:14:08.000 --> 02:14:11.800 So that was probably a little incoherent. But it's a 2153 02:14:11.800 --> 02:14:13.800 great book, and I hope your audience loves it. 2154 02:14:14.600 --> 02:14:18.760 No anything I promote anything from Imperium Press. I send 2155 02:14:18.800 --> 02:14:21.439 people there all the time and they just get lost 2156 02:14:21.479 --> 02:14:24.760 in it. Thank you for mentioning Coast to Coast, though 2157 02:14:24.800 --> 02:14:28.640 it reminds me I haven't listened. To keep it on 2158 02:14:28.680 --> 02:14:30.479 my phone to listen to every once in a while. 2159 02:14:30.600 --> 02:14:36.159 His nineteen ninety six interview with William Luther Pierce about that. Yeah, 2160 02:14:36.199 --> 02:14:39.720 and it was one of the only episodes that you'll 2161 02:14:39.760 --> 02:14:44.520 ever hear art Bell like going at the guests, like 2162 02:14:44.640 --> 02:14:48.199 attacking the guests. It's wild. But the thing I love 2163 02:14:48.199 --> 02:14:52.720 about it is Pierce is just so even I'm here 2164 02:14:52.760 --> 02:14:55.159 to tell here to tell my story, I'm here to 2165 02:14:56.359 --> 02:14:59.520 answer all these ridiculous claims that have been made and everything. 2166 02:14:59.560 --> 02:15:02.199 But yeah, there's some there's some good stuff out there, 2167 02:15:02.199 --> 02:15:06.079 and yeah, Turner Diaries and Hunter, those are good books 2168 02:15:06.079 --> 02:15:11.399 to check out, you know, and there some compelling writing. 2169 02:15:11.560 --> 02:15:12.399 To say the least. 2170 02:15:12.600 --> 02:15:16.600 There Not to slam Alex Jones because he's sort of 2171 02:15:16.640 --> 02:15:18.960 a folk hero for a lot of people, even to me, 2172 02:15:19.840 --> 02:15:23.720 but it's like, yeah, Coast coasted that in the nineties, 2173 02:15:23.960 --> 02:15:27.399 and it took Alex Jones until like twenty seventeen to 2174 02:15:27.479 --> 02:15:30.720 have David Duke on and he came at David Duke 2175 02:15:30.760 --> 02:15:34.199 the same way that William Luther PIERCEC. Gott treated So 2176 02:15:34.800 --> 02:15:39.520 it's the same kind of tension in the right wing. 2177 02:15:40.239 --> 02:15:42.079 And this is one of the hypotheses of my book 2178 02:15:42.119 --> 02:15:43.880 and my new book. It goes back to the John 2179 02:15:43.920 --> 02:15:48.039 Birch society in effect, where you have or between Buckley 2180 02:15:48.239 --> 02:15:51.479 and the National Review and the Real Rights, or between 2181 02:15:51.560 --> 02:15:56.159 Buchanan and the Conservative inc. There's this tension between the 2182 02:15:56.720 --> 02:16:01.439 mainstream post war consensus right and then the more principled 2183 02:16:01.479 --> 02:16:05.760 hardline nationalists, and that has always existed. This is why 2184 02:16:05.800 --> 02:16:09.960 there wasn't alt right. This is why James Lindsay complains 2185 02:16:10.039 --> 02:16:13.319 in that interview with Constantine kissing. Well, they don't even 2186 02:16:13.439 --> 02:16:16.800 actually attack the left, who supposed their real enemy. All 2187 02:16:16.840 --> 02:16:19.960 they ever do is attack the conservatives because conservative inc. 2188 02:16:20.520 --> 02:16:24.119 Is a proximately our biggest threat, because our message. We 2189 02:16:24.199 --> 02:16:28.319 have to squeeze our message through this very narrow funnel 2190 02:16:28.399 --> 02:16:31.600 to get half or a quarter or a third of 2191 02:16:31.720 --> 02:16:37.840 our ideas out in this very domesticated way, because conservative inc. 2192 02:16:37.920 --> 02:16:41.159 Is the problem. What did Nixon say, right a thousand times? 2193 02:16:41.200 --> 02:16:44.319 The media is the enemy. Conservative inc. Is the enemy. 2194 02:16:44.360 --> 02:16:46.440 So that's you know, that says it all right there. 2195 02:16:47.079 --> 02:16:51.040 Yeah, it wasn't the Clintons that got got Sam Francis 2196 02:16:51.079 --> 02:16:56.360 canceled and fired from his job. Yeah, it was the 2197 02:16:56.760 --> 02:17:01.520 un right wingers. Yeah, all right, Josh, I appreciate it, 2198 02:17:01.520 --> 02:17:05.440 thank you, and let's do it again. STIM appreciate it absolutely. 2199 02:17:07.239 --> 02:17:10.440 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pegana Show. Josh, 2200 02:17:10.479 --> 02:17:13.680 Neil's back. What's happening, Josh, It's going well. 2201 02:17:13.719 --> 02:17:16.200 Pete love talking to you. Thanks for the invite as well. 2202 02:17:16.520 --> 02:17:20.760 You're a very gracious host and we always have good conversations. 2203 02:17:20.799 --> 02:17:21.879 I'm looking forward to it today. 2204 02:17:22.520 --> 02:17:25.719 Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate that a lot. Thank 2205 02:17:25.719 --> 02:17:28.040 you for doing the Old Glory Club live stream last week. 2206 02:17:29.120 --> 02:17:33.799 Gave us some context into the JFK mess and and 2207 02:17:33.959 --> 02:17:38.479 other things. But last time you were, we were Last 2208 02:17:38.479 --> 02:17:41.079 time you were on, we talked about the term woke right, 2209 02:17:41.159 --> 02:17:43.719 and we talked a little bit about your second book, 2210 02:17:44.559 --> 02:17:50.159 Understanding Conspiracy Theories. But the new book, Intolerant and Intolerant 2211 02:17:50.200 --> 02:17:56.719 Interpretations is starts to go even beyond that and really 2212 02:17:56.760 --> 02:18:00.840 starts to get into start tearing apart. It seems like 2213 02:18:01.280 --> 02:18:04.719 you're trying to tear apart like the basis behind these 2214 02:18:04.760 --> 02:18:10.600 conspiracy theories, where they came from, and basically how they 2215 02:18:10.719 --> 02:18:15.159 grew and specifically you know, it's really easy to say, oh, 2216 02:18:15.200 --> 02:18:19.000 the president's head exploded, and you know it looks like 2217 02:18:19.079 --> 02:18:21.719 it came from the front, but you know they're saying 2218 02:18:21.719 --> 02:18:24.239 it came from the back. But no, it goes much 2219 02:18:24.319 --> 02:18:27.120 deeper than that. When when when you start getting into 2220 02:18:27.680 --> 02:18:31.239 conspiracy theories. So you know the first part of your 2221 02:18:31.280 --> 02:18:35.559 new book you specifically talk about Richard Hofstetter and Carl Popper, 2222 02:18:36.239 --> 02:18:39.440 So jump in there and start talking to you know, 2223 02:18:39.520 --> 02:18:43.639 if you can start to start there and take us 2224 02:18:43.680 --> 02:18:47.879 down the road of where we're at where where we 2225 02:18:48.040 --> 02:18:49.959 came from to get to where we are now. 2226 02:18:50.600 --> 02:18:53.079 Yeah, so again thanks for having me on to talk 2227 02:18:53.079 --> 02:18:57.239 about the book available with their Antelope Hill Publishing. It's 2228 02:18:57.280 --> 02:18:59.079 called Intolerant Interpretations. 2229 02:18:59.639 --> 02:19:02.840 And and if you if you use code, guess code 2230 02:19:02.879 --> 02:19:07.319 pete q off. So yeah, I've been an olybel things 2231 02:19:07.360 --> 02:19:08.000 so cool. 2232 02:19:07.959 --> 02:19:11.360 Awesome, awesome. I view it as a sequel to understanding 2233 02:19:11.360 --> 02:19:15.000 conspiracy theories. Uh, it's written that way. And yeah, as 2234 02:19:15.040 --> 02:19:21.760 you pointed out, the book starts with sort of a 2235 02:19:21.879 --> 02:19:28.760 genealogy of this like anti conspiracy polemic. It's called actually 2236 02:19:28.760 --> 02:19:31.719 the first chapter it's called and abbreviated genealogy because honestly, 2237 02:19:31.719 --> 02:19:34.559 if we really put our thinking hats on it, probably, 2238 02:19:35.000 --> 02:19:38.760 you know, we could look much further into the past, uh, 2239 02:19:38.879 --> 02:19:40.879 to to figure out how we got to where we 2240 02:19:40.879 --> 02:19:44.319 are today. But the very recent history, very recent past, 2241 02:19:44.399 --> 02:19:49.319 is certainly enough history to kind of understand the climate 2242 02:19:49.360 --> 02:19:51.280 that we're in now. And so yeah, I did single 2243 02:19:51.280 --> 02:19:54.360 out Carl Popper and I singled out Richard Hofstadter for 2244 02:19:54.399 --> 02:19:58.239 two I think very important reasons. I was kind of 2245 02:19:58.239 --> 02:20:02.280 imagine myself having to do a robot when I talk 2246 02:20:02.360 --> 02:20:05.319 about my books or offer some of my arguments, and 2247 02:20:05.319 --> 02:20:10.079 one of those, like my imaginary interlocutor is, you know, well, 2248 02:20:10.079 --> 02:20:12.799 why pick on Carl Popper, why pick on Richard Hofstadter? 2249 02:20:12.879 --> 02:20:16.760 What makes them so important? And there's really two reasons, 2250 02:20:16.840 --> 02:20:24.639 one for each. The first reason being that Carl Popper 2251 02:20:24.959 --> 02:20:30.040 is basically the philosopher of the open society. He's the 2252 02:20:30.040 --> 02:20:35.639 philosopher of the great replacement. And he's also because of 2253 02:20:35.680 --> 02:20:41.879 his a lot of his intellectual work dealt with epistemology 2254 02:20:42.040 --> 02:20:45.159 and things like that, he's also kind of like the 2255 02:20:45.159 --> 02:20:50.840 philosopher for the anti conspiracy theory point of view. And 2256 02:20:50.879 --> 02:20:53.159 there's two really important works that he wrote that I 2257 02:20:53.239 --> 02:20:56.520 critique in the book. Obviously. The first is The Open 2258 02:20:56.600 --> 02:20:58.719 Society and Its Enemies, and it's like a seven or 2259 02:20:58.760 --> 02:21:04.040 eight hundred book. Basically, it's like the be all and 2260 02:21:04.200 --> 02:21:09.319 end all of liberal democracy apology, right, that's kind of 2261 02:21:09.319 --> 02:21:13.399 what it's a seven hundred, eight hundred page book justifying 2262 02:21:13.879 --> 02:21:18.399 why open societies, which is to say, liberal democracies are 2263 02:21:18.799 --> 02:21:25.399 superior and preferable to closed societies. And he gives several 2264 02:21:25.440 --> 02:21:34.639 examples of what constitutes a closed society NSDAP Germany, Soviet Russia, 2265 02:21:35.959 --> 02:21:39.239 Fascist Europe, whether we're looking at Spain or Italy or 2266 02:21:39.399 --> 02:21:42.200 Romania or really any of the countries where there was 2267 02:21:42.239 --> 02:21:46.600 a fascist movement. But he even goes way back into 2268 02:21:46.959 --> 02:21:53.239 human history. The original closed society was Plato. Plato's republic 2269 02:21:53.399 --> 02:21:58.399 is basically the if the open society and its enemies 2270 02:21:58.959 --> 02:22:04.520 is the apotheosis of liberal democracy, then Plato's republic is 2271 02:22:04.559 --> 02:22:11.959 really the apotheosis, the intellectual apotheosis of you know, nativist, authoritarian, 2272 02:22:14.200 --> 02:22:21.760 ethnically and culturally heterogeneous states. That's what Popper. And again 2273 02:22:21.799 --> 02:22:25.360 maybe some context on Popper. He was from Central Europe. 2274 02:22:25.399 --> 02:22:31.280 He was from a well educated, high cultured bourgeois I 2275 02:22:31.319 --> 02:22:35.040 want to say, Lutheran family. I think Richard Hofstadder came 2276 02:22:35.040 --> 02:22:37.840 from a Lutheran family, so maybe Popper wasn't. But anyway, 2277 02:22:37.879 --> 02:22:43.280 they were upper class Jewish, ethnically Jewish living in Europe, 2278 02:22:43.719 --> 02:22:50.479 and Popper in particular saw both sides of that authoritarian coin. 2279 02:22:51.200 --> 02:22:54.959 He was a Communist in his youth, he almost died 2280 02:22:55.159 --> 02:22:58.360 at a Communist rally, and then he was some time 2281 02:22:58.479 --> 02:23:03.520 later obviously persecuted or felt the heat of the German 2282 02:23:03.600 --> 02:23:07.239 Reich on his heels, and he fled Europe and he 2283 02:23:07.360 --> 02:23:11.159 sought sanctuary basically in what we tend to think of 2284 02:23:11.200 --> 02:23:16.159 as the Atlanticist states, England, the United States, I think 2285 02:23:16.159 --> 02:23:22.760 even New Zealand. And so that experience informed his philosophy 2286 02:23:23.079 --> 02:23:27.120 about the superiority of liberal democracies, and as a kind 2287 02:23:27.120 --> 02:23:32.360 of second hand to that work, in the mid fifties, 2288 02:23:32.399 --> 02:23:36.120 he published a very very short essay like three pages 2289 02:23:36.680 --> 02:23:42.239 called The Conspiracy Theory of Society, and basically this was 2290 02:23:42.280 --> 02:23:48.600 his anti conspiracy polemic. He compares in that short essay, 2291 02:23:48.600 --> 02:23:55.479 he basically compares conspiracy theory epistemology to something like homer 2292 02:23:55.799 --> 02:24:01.159 or Homeric thinking, where that you've got this olympus of 2293 02:24:01.280 --> 02:24:07.559 deities that are really pulling all the strings, and more 2294 02:24:07.600 --> 02:24:10.840 than just pulling all the strings, they're specifically moving people 2295 02:24:10.879 --> 02:24:15.000 into place and positioning them to take important roles. So 2296 02:24:15.040 --> 02:24:17.200 he basically says, you know, when you abandon, when you 2297 02:24:17.239 --> 02:24:23.239 abandon God, you elevate man into this theistic state, and 2298 02:24:23.319 --> 02:24:29.639 so men become these supreme agents, capable of all kinds 2299 02:24:29.680 --> 02:24:34.079 of unexpected, unanticipated, shadowy conduct. 2300 02:24:34.239 --> 02:24:39.000 And what's interesting there is that is immediately, you know, 2301 02:24:39.079 --> 02:24:42.719 I think of Riizard Leguco his book The Demon and Democracy, 2302 02:24:43.200 --> 02:24:47.399 where he compares democracy and communism and just shows how 2303 02:24:48.200 --> 02:24:53.280 parallel they are in having to sell themselves. And all 2304 02:24:53.319 --> 02:24:58.600 that does is it sounds like he's selling. He's doing 2305 02:24:58.639 --> 02:25:02.040 his best to sell liberal democrac or sy while either 2306 02:25:02.200 --> 02:25:06.719 hiding or not understanding that in order for liberal democracy 2307 02:25:06.799 --> 02:25:12.280 to continue, a conspiracy does have to happen. But it's 2308 02:25:12.399 --> 02:25:16.200 not one continuous conspiracy. It's one conspiracy takes over and 2309 02:25:16.200 --> 02:25:19.159 that gets supplanted by another conspiracy and another, and it's 2310 02:25:19.239 --> 02:25:22.200 just not on down the line and you have you 2311 02:25:22.239 --> 02:25:24.159 just have competing conspiracies the all time. 2312 02:25:25.520 --> 02:25:29.479 Yeah, what's a chain of conspiracy? Like a never ending 2313 02:25:29.600 --> 02:25:33.719 chain of conspiracies? Well, what Popper says is different. He 2314 02:25:33.760 --> 02:25:38.639 actually says that things that we don't like Basically, he argues, 2315 02:25:38.680 --> 02:25:43.360 we attribute outcomes that we don't like to conspiratorial origins. 2316 02:25:43.920 --> 02:25:47.120 But what he claims is really happening is that there 2317 02:25:47.159 --> 02:25:51.239 are simply unexpected consequences, sort of like that old line 2318 02:25:51.440 --> 02:25:53.840 the road to hell is paved with good intentions, like 2319 02:25:53.920 --> 02:26:00.280 the road to conspiratorial thinking is paved with unintended consequences. So, 2320 02:26:00.360 --> 02:26:05.600 and he says things like you know, economic depressions, military conflicts, 2321 02:26:06.200 --> 02:26:10.680 societal collapse, the whole list are. These are all things 2322 02:26:10.719 --> 02:26:15.239 that come about as a consequence of other political actions 2323 02:26:15.600 --> 02:26:21.239 that are being undertaken, and that a social theorist's responsibility 2324 02:26:21.440 --> 02:26:25.200 is to trace those lines and figure out the causality. Right, 2325 02:26:25.280 --> 02:26:31.200 But ultimately it's never a conspiracy. Man does not replace God. 2326 02:26:31.879 --> 02:26:37.319 Everything can be understood empirically through proper social theory, social 2327 02:26:37.360 --> 02:26:41.399 proper social theorizing. And so that's why I chose Carl Popper, 2328 02:26:41.719 --> 02:26:45.760 because he has such a monumental legacy, and the more 2329 02:26:45.799 --> 02:26:49.639 you dig into it, actually the kind of creepier it gets. 2330 02:26:49.959 --> 02:26:52.159 A lot of the I will say a lot, but 2331 02:26:52.319 --> 02:26:58.440 some of the most well known names in the contemporary society, 2332 02:26:59.319 --> 02:27:05.879 people who are strong advocates of not only liberal democracy, 2333 02:27:06.000 --> 02:27:11.280 but also like the censorship regime and using state power 2334 02:27:11.360 --> 02:27:15.760 to prosecute political minorities, which is something that Carl Popper 2335 02:27:15.760 --> 02:27:19.120 advocated for. You find that a lot of the really 2336 02:27:19.159 --> 02:27:23.200 relevant people today were also connected to Carl Popper. Cass 2337 02:27:23.280 --> 02:27:27.920 Sunstein was a student of Carl Popper. George Soros was 2338 02:27:27.959 --> 02:27:31.360 a student of Karl Popper. I think Richard Hofstadter may 2339 02:27:31.399 --> 02:27:34.239 also have been at one point affiliated with him, So 2340 02:27:34.319 --> 02:27:39.920 he beyond his own works, Carl Popper was a mentor to, 2341 02:27:40.399 --> 02:27:46.360 or had close relationships with basically anyone who's ever had 2342 02:27:46.399 --> 02:27:50.000 a bugaboo about nativism, so he was a really obvious 2343 02:27:50.040 --> 02:27:55.079 example to pick. Richard Hofstadter, on the other hand, I think, 2344 02:27:55.520 --> 02:27:58.040 if I had to guess, it's kind of a name 2345 02:27:58.120 --> 02:28:04.520 that not many people think anymore. He died somewhat early on, 2346 02:28:05.120 --> 02:28:07.840 but he had a very successful career as an academic 2347 02:28:07.959 --> 02:28:13.360 historian and public intellectual in the mid twentieth century. Many 2348 02:28:13.399 --> 02:28:15.840 of his several of his books won Politic Serprizes, so 2349 02:28:15.879 --> 02:28:18.799 he was really really creme de la creme. The Age 2350 02:28:18.799 --> 02:28:22.799 of Reform was a Politz Serprise winning book. I believe 2351 02:28:22.840 --> 02:28:25.920 that The Paranoid Style and American Politics was another Politz 2352 02:28:25.920 --> 02:28:33.000 Surprise winning essay, and in both of those works, Carl Popper, 2353 02:28:33.000 --> 02:28:38.920 excuse me. Richard Hofstadter basically takes aim at populists, rural 2354 02:28:39.040 --> 02:28:44.440 types middle you know, flyover Middle America with San Francis 2355 02:28:44.479 --> 02:28:49.280 would describe as Middle American radicals, the kinds of people 2356 02:28:49.360 --> 02:28:53.159 who probably donated to the John Birch Society, the kinds 2357 02:28:53.200 --> 02:28:56.440 of people who probably supported the Tea Party, the kinds 2358 02:28:56.440 --> 02:29:01.760 of people who became maga. Basically, in those two works, 2359 02:29:02.200 --> 02:29:05.319 he's going after populism and in particular he's going after 2360 02:29:05.360 --> 02:29:09.040 what he calls the paranoid style in American politics. And 2361 02:29:09.280 --> 02:29:15.120 Richard Hofstadter also has his own legacy of influencing academics 2362 02:29:15.120 --> 02:29:21.319 to write anti conspiracy polemics, and his most famous essay 2363 02:29:21.600 --> 02:29:26.120 was the Paranoid Style and American Politics. Basically he uses 2364 02:29:26.159 --> 02:29:31.120 Freudian psychoanalysis as a in an artful way. That's his 2365 02:29:31.200 --> 02:29:33.920 own word. By the way, I'll give you this the 2366 02:29:33.959 --> 02:29:37.120 second sort of two a to why I chose these guys. 2367 02:29:37.520 --> 02:29:41.239 But it's because of they tell them themselves basically in 2368 02:29:41.319 --> 02:29:44.079 their works they tell him themselves repeatedly, so it makes 2369 02:29:44.079 --> 02:29:45.159 for a good learning. 2370 02:29:45.559 --> 02:29:51.559 This is a this is a running theme with a 2371 02:29:51.559 --> 02:29:55.360 certain group of people. They can't help themselves. 2372 02:29:55.799 --> 02:29:59.120 Yeah, and in particular, Paper and hopstadd are like at 2373 02:29:59.120 --> 02:30:02.360 the top of the mountain of just letting you know 2374 02:30:02.399 --> 02:30:05.440 exactly what's on their mind. That's how you can, at 2375 02:30:05.520 --> 02:30:07.479 least for me. It's like, if you want to present 2376 02:30:07.520 --> 02:30:12.040 an argument and you want to present people as spearheads 2377 02:30:12.120 --> 02:30:16.760 or figureheads of a certain movement or whatever I mean, 2378 02:30:16.879 --> 02:30:19.319 you don't want to leave the audience feeling like you 2379 02:30:19.440 --> 02:30:22.239 arbitrary really picked these people or whatever. So I mean, 2380 02:30:22.479 --> 02:30:24.920 it was really great that in both cases they just 2381 02:30:26.680 --> 02:30:29.200 they just telling themselves. So in the essay of Paranoid 2382 02:30:29.239 --> 02:30:33.959 Style in American Politics, he's talking about Barry Goldwater. He 2383 02:30:34.079 --> 02:30:39.200 coins this term pseudo conservatism, and he talks about the 2384 02:30:39.239 --> 02:30:43.280 paranoid style. So he says he uses paranoid in an 2385 02:30:43.360 --> 02:30:50.440 artful way, appropriating it from psychoanalysis and psychology. I think 2386 02:30:50.479 --> 02:30:53.479 he says something like in the way that a historian 2387 02:30:53.559 --> 02:30:59.200 of art would describe a certain period as barok or whatever, 2388 02:30:59.440 --> 02:31:02.799 he wanted to use paranoid style in that same way. So, 2389 02:31:02.840 --> 02:31:04.879 which is like a way of saying, you're not doing 2390 02:31:04.959 --> 02:31:07.760 it academically, you're not doing it empirically, you're kind of 2391 02:31:08.200 --> 02:31:12.399 literally bastardizing language to serve a partisan end. Like if 2392 02:31:12.399 --> 02:31:15.680 you read between the lines, he's basically saying, I'm taking 2393 02:31:15.719 --> 02:31:18.319 this term that has a very specific meaning and application, 2394 02:31:18.639 --> 02:31:21.920 I'm taking it outside of his discipline, and I'm plopping 2395 02:31:21.920 --> 02:31:25.719 it in a completely different discipline in an informal way, 2396 02:31:26.600 --> 02:31:29.360 just because you know, and there's. 2397 02:31:29.159 --> 02:31:33.760 Like so much of that today, so much of that today. 2398 02:31:33.799 --> 02:31:36.000 I don't know if you saw and I hate to 2399 02:31:36.239 --> 02:31:38.840 even talk about this person because it just gives him attention. 2400 02:31:39.360 --> 02:31:42.559 But Joel Berry from the Babylon b he said, there 2401 02:31:42.639 --> 02:31:46.719 is going he said, very soon, progressives are going to 2402 02:31:47.520 --> 02:31:55.879 start embracing white identity. Square peg round hole man, what 2403 02:31:55.920 --> 02:31:56.879 the hell are you doing? 2404 02:31:58.120 --> 02:31:58.520 Yeah? 2405 02:31:59.239 --> 02:32:03.879 Yeah, and it seems you know, and then obviously the 2406 02:32:04.200 --> 02:32:09.120 most obvious one is the main wook right guy. What 2407 02:32:09.159 --> 02:32:12.200 the hell is the same James Lindsay. I mean, he's 2408 02:32:12.639 --> 02:32:17.559 you forget, he has nothing is he's incoherent. At this point, 2409 02:32:17.600 --> 02:32:21.719 it's gotten to the point where they they can't make 2410 02:32:22.360 --> 02:32:26.879 They know that they've lost, They know that neoliberalism is dying, 2411 02:32:27.040 --> 02:32:30.680 they know that the open society is falling apart what 2412 02:32:30.760 --> 02:32:35.000 they love the most, and they're doing every and it's 2413 02:32:35.879 --> 02:32:39.239 this isn't right after World War Two when you have 2414 02:32:39.280 --> 02:32:44.120 a couple of Jews who are basically advocating the open 2415 02:32:44.159 --> 02:32:46.680 society because they don't want to go back to what 2416 02:32:46.760 --> 02:32:50.079 it was just you know, ten years ago, and you know, 2417 02:32:50.120 --> 02:32:52.639 they need a society that they can blend in in. 2418 02:32:53.479 --> 02:32:56.920 And yeah, I mean we're past that at this point, 2419 02:32:57.079 --> 02:33:00.559 and especially especially since October twenty twenty three, which I 2420 02:33:00.600 --> 02:33:04.520 think is like literally a changing of the age like that, 2421 02:33:04.760 --> 02:33:05.879 like we're in a new age now. 2422 02:33:06.520 --> 02:33:15.040 I totally agree, so Hofstadter basically, And there's a couple 2423 02:33:15.000 --> 02:33:17.319 of I don't want to spoil all of the really 2424 02:33:17.319 --> 02:33:19.840 really juicy bits of it, but there's so many like 2425 02:33:19.959 --> 02:33:23.000 telling on yourself moments, some of them like they weren't 2426 02:33:23.079 --> 02:33:25.959 obvious at the time. But there's one passage where he 2427 02:33:26.000 --> 02:33:32.639 talks about, Uh, there's a famous French psychoanalyst, Jacques lacan Uh. 2428 02:33:33.280 --> 02:33:36.719 He's sort of like a he's a structuralist, he's a feminist. Basically, 2429 02:33:36.760 --> 02:33:40.959 he's like your average like shit lib French intellectual had 2430 02:33:41.000 --> 02:33:45.680 all of the bad uh you know positions, political positions. 2431 02:33:44.920 --> 02:33:47.719 Like a precursor to post like a precur precursor to 2432 02:33:47.760 --> 02:33:49.319 the French postmodernist or something like that. 2433 02:33:49.399 --> 02:33:53.360 Yeah, basically one generation earlier than that, sort of overlapping 2434 02:33:53.440 --> 02:33:57.280 into the that movement getting its legs off the ground. 2435 02:33:58.120 --> 02:34:01.879 But there's a famous Lakhanian law that I think most people, 2436 02:34:04.280 --> 02:34:06.879 most readers in this sphere have kind of come across 2437 02:34:06.879 --> 02:34:09.000 one way or another. Gets quoted a lot. He says, 2438 02:34:09.040 --> 02:34:15.239 you know, if you're paranoid, if you fear that your 2439 02:34:15.239 --> 02:34:20.520 wife is cheating on you. Even if she is, you're 2440 02:34:20.559 --> 02:34:24.200 still paranoid and it's illegitimate to have that fear. So 2441 02:34:25.079 --> 02:34:27.799 so your wife is cheating on you, you're suspicious that 2442 02:34:27.879 --> 02:34:33.719 she's cheating on you. You're pathological. So look like Hofstadter takes 2443 02:34:33.719 --> 02:34:37.959 that and he uses it in the context of floridization 2444 02:34:38.239 --> 02:34:43.719 in the water supply. He says, you know, if even 2445 02:34:43.840 --> 02:34:46.440 if it came out to be true at some point 2446 02:34:46.440 --> 02:34:51.559 in the future that the government was putting contaminating the 2447 02:34:51.600 --> 02:34:58.000 water supply for expressly political, even socialist reasons, you would 2448 02:34:58.040 --> 02:35:01.000 that's still exemplary of the p aid style. And then 2449 02:35:01.319 --> 02:35:04.879 lo and behold, decades later, that's basically exactly what happened. 2450 02:35:06.079 --> 02:35:08.840 And that's like only the tip of the iceberg basically 2451 02:35:08.840 --> 02:35:13.280 in terms of contaminating the food supply, the water supply, 2452 02:35:13.520 --> 02:35:17.200 the soil, the air, everything that we kind of consume 2453 02:35:17.479 --> 02:35:24.200 and are just moving through even passively. Like we all know, 2454 02:35:24.280 --> 02:35:26.520 we all have the receipts on that. It's not a mystery. 2455 02:35:26.559 --> 02:35:29.319 There's it's basically pretty much an open and shutcase. It 2456 02:35:29.399 --> 02:35:33.120 did happen, It happened for expressly political reasons. Still people 2457 02:35:33.120 --> 02:35:36.000 still want it to happen. RFK junior, as he was 2458 02:35:36.040 --> 02:35:40.280 being sworn in as head of HHS, basically said we're 2459 02:35:40.319 --> 02:35:42.680 going to take the floride out of the water. So 2460 02:35:42.719 --> 02:35:45.719 it's like, oh, but you're still a crank if you 2461 02:35:45.799 --> 02:35:48.680 think that, You're still a crazy person if any of 2462 02:35:48.719 --> 02:35:53.000 that troubles you in any way. So to my imaginary 2463 02:35:53.000 --> 02:35:57.600 interlocutor who doesn't see any reason to specifically target these 2464 02:35:57.600 --> 02:36:01.520 two people as being progenitors of this way of thinking, 2465 02:36:02.920 --> 02:36:06.559 that's why that's kind of my rebuttal I was gonna 2466 02:36:06.559 --> 02:36:09.760 say before, there's like a two A aspect to that, 2467 02:36:09.920 --> 02:36:12.000 or like you know, like a tertiary aspect to that, 2468 02:36:12.479 --> 02:36:16.639 and it's it's entirely the way in which these these 2469 02:36:16.719 --> 02:36:21.559 academics basically told you what the final outcome of their 2470 02:36:21.719 --> 02:36:25.200 preferred political program would be. Towards the end of the 2471 02:36:25.200 --> 02:36:28.799 Open Society and its enemies, Popper basically says, you know, 2472 02:36:29.040 --> 02:36:34.639 if we followed this open society policy to its final conclusion, 2473 02:36:35.520 --> 02:36:39.280 then it's not only conceivable, I'm paraphrasing, by the way, 2474 02:36:39.319 --> 02:36:41.799 just for the audience at home, it's not only conceivable 2475 02:36:41.879 --> 02:36:45.799 but highly likely that you would have mass scale a 2476 02:36:45.799 --> 02:36:50.879 demographic replacement. You know that it would so rupture the 2477 02:36:51.600 --> 02:36:56.440 health and stability and coherency of an area, but the 2478 02:36:56.520 --> 02:36:59.680 open society is still better, so we have to do it. 2479 02:36:59.799 --> 02:37:05.159 So these are two guys who basically laid out a 2480 02:37:05.280 --> 02:37:11.120 sort of series of justifications for liberal democracy. They also 2481 02:37:11.600 --> 02:37:15.840 issued a series of polemics against people who are skeptical 2482 02:37:15.840 --> 02:37:20.040 of liberal democracy, and they also kind of spilled the 2483 02:37:20.079 --> 02:37:25.600 beans on what's wrong with their preferred political program. So 2484 02:37:25.799 --> 02:37:29.280 it's very difficult for me to find a better example 2485 02:37:29.840 --> 02:37:32.440 of the kind of thing I'm trying to communicate to 2486 02:37:32.479 --> 02:37:41.079 the audience, which is all of these kinds of things racialism, conspiracism, 2487 02:37:41.680 --> 02:37:48.479 anti liberalism are inexorably tied to one another. And it's 2488 02:37:48.479 --> 02:37:54.920 not for arbitrary reasons. It's for like first principles political theory. 2489 02:37:55.000 --> 02:37:58.639 And also just like I was gonna say, urban planning, 2490 02:37:58.639 --> 02:38:02.559 not urban planning, but like like basically like state craft and. 2491 02:38:02.639 --> 02:38:05.319 And and social engineer, social engineer. 2492 02:38:05.120 --> 02:38:08.520 Social engineering, right, yeah, yeah, like your demographic construction things 2493 02:38:08.559 --> 02:38:14.520 like that. Social engineering is more succinct. So I started 2494 02:38:14.559 --> 02:38:18.079 with them, and the more I read them and the 2495 02:38:18.120 --> 02:38:20.280 more I do this kind of writing, I just feel 2496 02:38:21.959 --> 02:38:25.319 like vindicated in that decision because they just keep proving 2497 02:38:25.360 --> 02:38:26.959 to be relevant over and over again. 2498 02:38:28.799 --> 02:38:33.920 Before we move on to the next next one, the 2499 02:38:35.520 --> 02:38:42.440 term conspiracy. Theorist Carl Popper wrote, use that term, and 2500 02:38:42.479 --> 02:38:46.239 I believe it was nineteen fifty seven. And then there's 2501 02:38:46.559 --> 02:38:51.680 this it's been revealed that the CIA was using that, 2502 02:38:52.200 --> 02:38:54.600 like had said, Oh, that's the term we need to 2503 02:38:54.760 --> 02:38:58.719 use against against people who are talking about the JFK. 2504 02:38:59.040 --> 02:39:02.000 Is that is that right? Or is it uh? Or 2505 02:39:02.040 --> 02:39:03.479 should we be looking at Popper for that? 2506 02:39:04.719 --> 02:39:08.319 I you know, I've heard that. I've heard that basically 2507 02:39:08.399 --> 02:39:12.120 all of my life. I've never independently researched that. I've 2508 02:39:12.159 --> 02:39:15.079 kind of taken it at face value because I've heard 2509 02:39:15.200 --> 02:39:19.760 other and I've seen other, you know, well regarded researchers 2510 02:39:20.239 --> 02:39:27.520 make that claim. Before I would say, I would say 2511 02:39:27.559 --> 02:39:31.079 this that there there's more than one road to critiquing 2512 02:39:31.799 --> 02:39:35.799 liberal democracy. And I do think it comes down to 2513 02:39:36.760 --> 02:39:41.200 sort of your specialization. I think people who are more 2514 02:39:41.200 --> 02:39:45.680 into who are more like wonks and more into political 2515 02:39:45.680 --> 02:39:51.799 culture and more into the nitty gritty of institutions and 2516 02:39:51.799 --> 02:39:57.280 and and the ways they sort of like octopus tentacles 2517 02:39:57.319 --> 02:40:00.239 get involved. Have there have their their tentacles in every 2518 02:40:00.239 --> 02:40:05.520 other pot because obviously the CIA has a long, a 2519 02:40:05.559 --> 02:40:09.159 long history of social engineering. I'm actually just now reading 2520 02:40:09.159 --> 02:40:12.399 this great book Who Paid the Piper, which is basically 2521 02:40:12.399 --> 02:40:15.559 it's by H. Francis Stoner Saunders, and is talking about 2522 02:40:15.559 --> 02:40:18.799 the CIA during the Cold War and they're anti Communist 2523 02:40:18.840 --> 02:40:21.959 initiatives and how people like James Burnham were, you know, 2524 02:40:22.520 --> 02:40:26.399 in effect, you know, whether explicitly or implicitly, doing Cold 2525 02:40:26.440 --> 02:40:32.360 War culture war stuff on behalf of America against the Communists. 2526 02:40:33.079 --> 02:40:36.959 I've kind of always known that it was kind of 2527 02:40:36.959 --> 02:40:39.120 obvious if you work at if you were working at 2528 02:40:39.120 --> 02:40:42.200 a National Review when he worked there, you were you 2529 02:40:42.200 --> 02:40:44.040 were tied to the CIA in some way. 2530 02:40:44.559 --> 02:40:47.879 Yeah, so well, naively, I actually didn't know that. I 2531 02:40:47.959 --> 02:40:50.079 was very late to the James Burnham train. Everyone was 2532 02:40:50.079 --> 02:40:52.479 reading him during COVID and earlier, and I picked him 2533 02:40:52.520 --> 02:40:54.360 up like two years ago, and my head was, my 2534 02:40:54.479 --> 02:40:56.239 hat was blown off my head. I was like, wow, 2535 02:40:56.280 --> 02:40:58.079 this is great. And then and then like a week 2536 02:40:58.159 --> 02:40:59.959 later someone was like, yeah, but Burnham was the spoon 2537 02:41:00.079 --> 02:41:02.600 Come like wait, what so yeah. 2538 02:41:02.440 --> 02:41:05.120 But that doesn't But but the thing the thing about 2539 02:41:05.159 --> 02:41:08.559 it is that doesn't bother me because you know, when 2540 02:41:08.559 --> 02:41:10.280 I think about the first two books that he wrote. 2541 02:41:10.280 --> 02:41:14.079 When he wrote The Managerial Revolution, he wrote Machiavellians, I 2542 02:41:14.879 --> 02:41:16.879 can't be one in two percent. Sure he was spooked 2543 02:41:16.920 --> 02:41:20.799 up at that point. He was, you know, possibly, but 2544 02:41:21.879 --> 02:41:24.520 still it doesn't mean that he was writing those books 2545 02:41:24.600 --> 02:41:32.760 for any other any other intention then, because he that's 2546 02:41:32.799 --> 02:41:34.360 that's the book he wanted to write at the time. 2547 02:41:34.920 --> 02:41:39.719 Yeah, in particular, The Managerial Revolution seems like a relatively 2548 02:41:39.760 --> 02:41:45.000 non ideological kind of academic work. But anyway, I think 2549 02:41:45.040 --> 02:41:48.079 there's probably multiple roads you can take. And for people 2550 02:41:48.079 --> 02:41:50.200 who are you know, as they say on the internet, 2551 02:41:50.280 --> 02:41:55.600 like theory cells, who are into the philosophical tradition, I 2552 02:41:55.840 --> 02:41:59.079 don't think, you know, focusing on Carl Popper versus focusing 2553 02:41:59.159 --> 02:42:03.159 on the CIA, that there's any obstacle or that there's 2554 02:42:03.200 --> 02:42:06.319 any hurdles, or that they're not congruent with one another. 2555 02:42:07.120 --> 02:42:08.920 This just happens to be the road that I took, 2556 02:42:10.200 --> 02:42:12.760 and so I think there's legitimacy to both. I mean, 2557 02:42:12.799 --> 02:42:24.760 obviously the CIA is involved in political assassinations regime change coups, 2558 02:42:25.360 --> 02:42:30.000 so we're if anything, I think what is worth extracting 2559 02:42:30.000 --> 02:42:33.639 out of this is sort of the if you want 2560 02:42:33.639 --> 02:42:43.120 to say, multidisciplinary or multi factorial, multi personnel engine behind 2561 02:42:43.319 --> 02:42:47.200 liberal democracy. That you can come at it from the 2562 02:42:47.239 --> 02:42:49.319 popular culture space, you can come at it from the 2563 02:42:49.319 --> 02:42:52.000 academic space, you can come at it from the intelligence 2564 02:42:52.239 --> 02:42:55.319 services space, and basically it all leads you to the 2565 02:42:55.360 --> 02:43:01.760 same thing that you've got political conflict, right, valry, subterfuge, 2566 02:43:02.079 --> 02:43:04.680 All the kinds of things that people like Carl Popper 2567 02:43:04.719 --> 02:43:07.760 told you don't actually have them and are not really 2568 02:43:07.799 --> 02:43:14.719 relevant in understanding political anything related to politics. 2569 02:43:16.040 --> 02:43:19.680 Let's jump forward to Jonathan Heyde. You talk about his 2570 02:43:19.719 --> 02:43:22.680 book The Righteous Mind. That's one of those Height is 2571 02:43:22.719 --> 02:43:25.000 one of those people that really gets pushed by a 2572 02:43:25.040 --> 02:43:28.479 lot of the people who call themselves classical liberals, the 2573 02:43:28.479 --> 02:43:30.959 people who want to return to the nineties, the golden 2574 02:43:31.000 --> 02:43:34.120 age of the nineties. But you know, one of the 2575 02:43:34.120 --> 02:43:40.280 things that you point out is that they're his ideas 2576 02:43:41.879 --> 02:43:49.799 about psychological about how he misrepresents political differences between people 2577 02:43:49.879 --> 02:43:53.360 who have I think the terminology you use was broader 2578 02:43:53.440 --> 02:43:57.760 moral palette or what he used is broader moral palette 2579 02:43:57.760 --> 02:44:03.200 and liberals six and tuitions versus versus liberals have three. 2580 02:44:04.120 --> 02:44:06.600 So can you talk a little bit about how Height 2581 02:44:06.760 --> 02:44:12.719 continues this how he explains how this continues and moves 2582 02:44:12.760 --> 02:44:15.959 forward from you know, from World War Two and the 2583 02:44:15.959 --> 02:44:17.200 post war consensus. 2584 02:44:17.719 --> 02:44:21.040 Yeah. So I think a friend of yours, astral Flight, 2585 02:44:21.799 --> 02:44:25.239 made this really great observation to me. I didn't even 2586 02:44:25.280 --> 02:44:28.719 realize it that Jonathan Height was kind of like like 2587 02:44:28.760 --> 02:44:32.760 the Jordan Peterson. Before there was a Jordan Peterson. Five 2588 02:44:32.879 --> 02:44:36.600 or six years before Jordan Peterson got into political commentary 2589 02:44:36.639 --> 02:44:39.760 and political culture, you had Jonathan Hight as this sort 2590 02:44:39.799 --> 02:44:44.120 of centrist. And I say none of this with invective 2591 02:44:44.280 --> 02:44:46.879 or hatred. I actually think pretty of all of the 2592 02:44:46.879 --> 02:44:50.719 people who've done the I d W centrist, we just 2593 02:44:50.760 --> 02:44:52.920 need to get along thing. I really do look at 2594 02:44:53.000 --> 02:44:56.600 Jonathan Height as being like the most honest and really 2595 02:44:56.600 --> 02:44:59.600 the most competent person to try that out. But I 2596 02:44:59.600 --> 02:45:02.000 would just say, like, it's really remarkable if you want 2597 02:45:02.040 --> 02:45:05.159 to compare the public intellectuals of say today or the 2598 02:45:05.200 --> 02:45:11.040 last ten years compared to twenty thirty, forty, fifty, sixty 2599 02:45:11.120 --> 02:45:15.879 years ago, it's really startling. The issue I had with 2600 02:45:15.959 --> 02:45:19.719 Jonathan Hite was that his and this is really the 2601 02:45:19.719 --> 02:45:22.920 same issue with Jordan Peterson, even though it doesn't seem 2602 02:45:22.959 --> 02:45:28.399 that way with Peterson is they're actually very narrow minded. 2603 02:45:31.239 --> 02:45:35.959 I hesitate to say uneducated, but they are ignorant really 2604 02:45:36.120 --> 02:45:40.520 of other disciplines beyond their own. Jordan Peterson, if you 2605 02:45:40.520 --> 02:45:42.600 want to know about psychology, probably is one of the 2606 02:45:42.600 --> 02:45:45.799 best living educators of psychology. But when and this has 2607 02:45:45.840 --> 02:45:50.799 always been a parent when it comes to philosophy, history, 2608 02:45:51.079 --> 02:45:58.440 political theory, he's basically indistinguishable from like your grandpa sitting 2609 02:45:58.520 --> 02:46:01.440 at the actually your grandpa at the Thanksgiving dinner probably 2610 02:46:01.440 --> 02:46:04.479 knows more than Jordan Peerson. But same thing with Jonathan Hyde. 2611 02:46:04.639 --> 02:46:09.600 Very good, very astute as a sociologist, as a anthropologically 2612 02:46:09.639 --> 02:46:13.239 minded person, obviously as a PhD of social psychology, But 2613 02:46:13.360 --> 02:46:17.840 the big glaring hole in his theory of the moral 2614 02:46:17.840 --> 02:46:23.879 foundations as applied to the political binary is actually politically ignorant. 2615 02:46:24.120 --> 02:46:28.799 So the John so the Heights moral foundations theory says 2616 02:46:29.159 --> 02:46:42.319 that there are six elementary moral foundations or intuitions care, fairness, liberty, sanctity, authority, 2617 02:46:44.559 --> 02:46:46.760 there's a sixth one that I'm actually blanking on at 2618 02:46:46.760 --> 02:46:53.000 the moment. And his research demonstrated that conservatives were more 2619 02:46:53.040 --> 02:46:57.639 in touch with all six than liberals were. And he 2620 02:46:58.200 --> 02:47:02.680 gives the example of the John Kerry campaign back in 2621 02:47:02.680 --> 02:47:05.840 two thousand and four and the rhetoric that was on 2622 02:47:05.959 --> 02:47:10.399 the campaign trail, and he basically said that Democrats were 2623 02:47:10.639 --> 02:47:20.879 unable to access rhetoric that touched on moral intuitions like authority, sanctity, purity, 2624 02:47:21.040 --> 02:47:23.319 purity would have been the sixth one, right, that these 2625 02:47:23.360 --> 02:47:29.280 are kind of like classically conservative moral intuitions. They have 2626 02:47:29.360 --> 02:47:32.440 to do with They're they're inexorably bound up with like 2627 02:47:33.000 --> 02:47:37.959 the church and religion. They're inexorably bound up with the military, 2628 02:47:38.840 --> 02:47:43.000 hierarchy and the state. They are inexorably bilt bound up 2629 02:47:43.040 --> 02:47:47.559 with the family and a paternal sort of view of 2630 02:47:47.600 --> 02:47:50.600 the world. And so Height says, well, this is really 2631 02:47:50.639 --> 02:47:54.399 a big problem. Democrats are losing these elections, they're losing 2632 02:47:54.479 --> 02:47:57.920 the culture war, They're not really able to communicate to 2633 02:47:58.639 --> 02:48:03.360 all Americans. So he embarked on this research project to 2634 02:48:03.479 --> 02:48:08.280 develop a way to help liberals expand their moral palate. 2635 02:48:08.440 --> 02:48:12.360 There's a couple of problems with that. First, and what 2636 02:48:12.399 --> 02:48:15.159 I think the biggest problem is is that his research 2637 02:48:15.239 --> 02:48:20.879 actually demonstrates that liberals can access other moral intuitions. It's 2638 02:48:20.959 --> 02:48:25.040 just that when they apply those moral intuitions, they're applied differently. 2639 02:48:25.319 --> 02:48:36.040 When a conservative Bible thumping rust belter practices sanctity, they're 2640 02:48:36.040 --> 02:48:39.200 thinking about Christ, they're thinking about God, they're thinking about 2641 02:48:39.239 --> 02:48:42.479 the Church. They're thinking about the Beatitudes, the Ten Commandments, 2642 02:48:42.840 --> 02:48:49.120 they're pastor. But this is according to Height. When secular 2643 02:48:49.239 --> 02:48:55.079 humanist types think in terms of sanctity, well, they think 2644 02:48:55.079 --> 02:48:58.799 about the environment, They think about pollution and climate change, 2645 02:48:58.840 --> 02:49:04.760 they think about sort of these very novel, untraditional, outside 2646 02:49:04.799 --> 02:49:07.559 of the box ways of applying these basic moral intuitions. 2647 02:49:09.239 --> 02:49:11.559 You know, what was the old liberal maxim, you know, 2648 02:49:12.479 --> 02:49:16.559 think globally, act locally. That kind of describes the problems 2649 02:49:16.559 --> 02:49:19.360 are the way liberals think is in this fundamentally non 2650 02:49:19.440 --> 02:49:25.280 parochial way. So that tells us one that liberals don't 2651 02:49:25.360 --> 02:49:29.920 have a problem accessing these moral intuitions, it's just they 2652 02:49:29.959 --> 02:49:33.280 apply them differently. So to me, the first problem that 2653 02:49:33.319 --> 02:49:36.799 arises out of that is it tells us something about 2654 02:49:37.440 --> 02:49:41.159 the populations themselves and the kinds of social worlds that 2655 02:49:41.159 --> 02:49:45.399 they occupy. I extrapolate from that that we really have 2656 02:49:45.760 --> 02:49:51.559 two completely different populations living side by side as though 2657 02:49:51.920 --> 02:49:55.040 they were actually one people. You know, when we are 2658 02:49:55.319 --> 02:49:58.200 we here in the whatever you want to say, the 2659 02:49:58.280 --> 02:50:02.040 Trump right, the online right, student right, radical right right, whatever, 2660 02:50:02.079 --> 02:50:03.879 I mean, A lot of us, if not most of us, 2661 02:50:03.920 --> 02:50:09.840 are here because we have certain foundational concerns about our kin, 2662 02:50:10.000 --> 02:50:14.760 about the folk, about the race, about homogeneity and a 2663 02:50:14.799 --> 02:50:20.719 coherent national identity. This sort of issue in Heights. Theorizing 2664 02:50:20.920 --> 02:50:24.280 betrays the fact that we don't have a coherent national identity, 2665 02:50:24.680 --> 02:50:27.760 and that homogeneity is not just an issue in terms 2666 02:50:27.760 --> 02:50:34.159 of racial characteristics or religious affiliation, but actually there are 2667 02:50:34.319 --> 02:50:38.000 other ways in which people are or aren't alike, and 2668 02:50:38.040 --> 02:50:40.920 that's meaningful in terms of how you organize your polity. 2669 02:50:41.120 --> 02:50:45.079 So basically the punchline of that essay is there's two 2670 02:50:45.719 --> 02:50:49.079 different political economies. This goes back to James Burnham. There 2671 02:50:49.079 --> 02:50:55.000 are two different political economies operating in this country, and 2672 02:50:55.040 --> 02:50:59.120 while they're not necessarily opposed to one another, they are 2673 02:50:59.159 --> 02:51:05.760 in conflict. You have the classical liberal political economy bourgeois 2674 02:51:05.959 --> 02:51:12.040 entrepreneurial capitalism, which, even though that was critical in displacing 2675 02:51:13.120 --> 02:51:17.360 the old aristocratic order and the monarchy and things we 2676 02:51:17.399 --> 02:51:21.479 think of as even more based and conservative and hierarchical 2677 02:51:21.520 --> 02:51:24.239 and all these kinds of things, but relative to like 2678 02:51:24.360 --> 02:51:27.920 modernity where we are now. You know, that's pretty, it's pretty. 2679 02:51:29.399 --> 02:51:33.159 They were still deeply devout religious people. They were still 2680 02:51:33.159 --> 02:51:39.840 deeply patriarchal. These were not people who who comparable today anyway, 2681 02:51:40.079 --> 02:51:42.760 who thought like we will literally burn through all of 2682 02:51:42.760 --> 02:51:45.479 our social capital if it will earn more money or 2683 02:51:45.520 --> 02:51:51.159 help us achieve some kind of kakamamie political agenda. You 2684 02:51:51.239 --> 02:51:55.120 had this bourgeois entrepreneurial liberalism, and then what comes after that, 2685 02:51:55.239 --> 02:52:00.680 as James Burnham said, is managerialism. Managerialism, the tech technocracy, 2686 02:52:00.920 --> 02:52:06.799 the cult of expertise, credentialism, socialism, you know, the welfare state, 2687 02:52:07.520 --> 02:52:12.479 all of these things which are built on bourgeois entrepreneurialism 2688 02:52:12.840 --> 02:52:18.280 but also in a way sort of parasitize bourgeois capitalism. 2689 02:52:18.479 --> 02:52:20.200 That's kind of like one of the stories of the 2690 02:52:20.239 --> 02:52:24.639 recent Trump victory with Vance as his VP, is like 2691 02:52:24.959 --> 02:52:28.479 we're trying to put the managerial revolution back in the 2692 02:52:28.520 --> 02:52:32.479 box a little bit here. Burnham says that, you know, 2693 02:52:32.559 --> 02:52:38.000 managerialism emerged because actually San Francis says this, expanding on 2694 02:52:38.520 --> 02:52:43.559 James Burnham, that nation states were growing so rapidly both 2695 02:52:43.639 --> 02:52:47.680 demographically in terms of like their geographical territories, and so 2696 02:52:47.719 --> 02:52:50.319 you had this dual problem of mass and scale. They're 2697 02:52:50.319 --> 02:52:53.440 getting larger, they're also getting more complicated. So if you're 2698 02:52:53.600 --> 02:52:55.479 a you know, if you're like an early twentieth century 2699 02:52:55.559 --> 02:52:59.399 robber baron, a capitalist, well you while it might have 2700 02:52:59.440 --> 02:53:03.000 been possible for you in eighteen fifty or nineteen hundred 2701 02:53:03.079 --> 02:53:08.000 or even nineteen fifty to literally micromanage everything and understand 2702 02:53:08.719 --> 02:53:11.280 A good example of this is maybe Walt Disney trying 2703 02:53:11.319 --> 02:53:16.000 to put together Snow White. He was intimately involved in 2704 02:53:16.200 --> 02:53:19.879 every aspect of that production down to the finest detail. 2705 02:53:20.840 --> 02:53:22.760 And then if you look at what Disney's doing today, 2706 02:53:22.959 --> 02:53:26.639 like the people who bankroll it have no control what's happening, 2707 02:53:27.200 --> 02:53:30.159 no idea, what's even happening in terms of casting and 2708 02:53:30.239 --> 02:53:35.479 like CGI and whatever. So things were getting so large 2709 02:53:35.719 --> 02:53:39.680 and kind of complicated that you had a new class 2710 02:53:39.719 --> 02:53:43.680 of people emerge, and these were the managers, technically minded, 2711 02:53:43.920 --> 02:53:48.639 technically skilled people usually with a college education, usually living 2712 02:53:48.680 --> 02:53:53.440 in an urban or suburban setting, who are not capitalists 2713 02:53:53.479 --> 02:53:57.319 in the sense that they have large reserves of money 2714 02:53:57.319 --> 02:54:01.159 that they can allocate and spend and whatever captains of industry, 2715 02:54:02.040 --> 02:54:07.399 but they have very narrowly defined highly skilled roles that 2716 02:54:07.479 --> 02:54:09.920 put them. I think the quote from San Francis is 2717 02:54:10.479 --> 02:54:14.559 they literally put their hands on the levers of of 2718 02:54:14.600 --> 02:54:17.440 these industries. So as San Francis said, you know, the 2719 02:54:17.600 --> 02:54:22.000 change in the kind of people who became in charge 2720 02:54:22.040 --> 02:54:25.280 of things also became rather, he says, the change in 2721 02:54:25.319 --> 02:54:28.200 the class of people also became a change in the 2722 02:54:28.319 --> 02:54:31.799 kind of people. So we went from capitalists to managers. 2723 02:54:32.120 --> 02:54:35.959 But also we're dealing with a different demographic of people. 2724 02:54:36.840 --> 02:54:39.799 You know, a lot of you know, Ellis Islanders, you know, 2725 02:54:40.000 --> 02:54:43.719 are getting into these positions, a lot of newer immigrant 2726 02:54:43.760 --> 02:54:48.040 Americans are getting into these positions. To your audience, I'm 2727 02:54:48.040 --> 02:54:50.520 bringing this to a conclusion here. If it seems like 2728 02:54:50.520 --> 02:54:53.760 a crazy digression, we could say, in a sort of 2729 02:54:53.840 --> 02:55:02.600 loose way that the liberal democratic, you know, liberal progressive liberals, democrats, socialists, 2730 02:55:02.600 --> 02:55:06.879 these kinds of people, you know, in terms of heights, 2731 02:55:06.920 --> 02:55:12.399 moral foundation, the threes versus the sixes, these are people 2732 02:55:12.520 --> 02:55:16.440 who basically live in a completely different economy than the 2733 02:55:16.479 --> 02:55:20.120 conservative person. The conservative person even today still lives in 2734 02:55:20.159 --> 02:55:24.760 a farm, works on a farm, or runs their own business, 2735 02:55:24.879 --> 02:55:27.959 or comes from a family that does that. You know, 2736 02:55:28.000 --> 02:55:30.079 they tend you know statistically, we know this. You know, 2737 02:55:30.120 --> 02:55:32.760 they tend not to go to college, they tend not 2738 02:55:32.879 --> 02:55:35.719 to complete their degrees, they tend not to read as much. 2739 02:55:36.280 --> 02:55:41.719 The divide what Jonathan Hite treats as psychological differences between 2740 02:55:41.920 --> 02:55:46.200 liberals and conservatives really is a demographic difference. It's an 2741 02:55:46.239 --> 02:55:51.360 economical difference. So it's not that liberals are out of 2742 02:55:51.479 --> 02:55:56.719 touch with the authority moral intuition or the sanctity moral intuition. 2743 02:55:57.399 --> 02:56:02.239 It's that they are basically into a completely different style 2744 02:56:02.280 --> 02:56:05.799 of life, and so they apply these moral intuitions to 2745 02:56:05.920 --> 02:56:09.239 the world in wildly different ways. They even apply the 2746 02:56:09.360 --> 02:56:14.799 same moral intuitions differently. Jonathan Hype points out that for conservatives, 2747 02:56:15.000 --> 02:56:19.280 fairness has more to do with like proportionality, for example, 2748 02:56:19.680 --> 02:56:23.600 compared to liberals, where it's about like distributing to everyone. 2749 02:56:24.040 --> 02:56:26.840 Now everyone gets a piece of the pie. But conservatives say, 2750 02:56:26.840 --> 02:56:29.159 well that doesn't sound fair, Like why does the guy 2751 02:56:29.159 --> 02:56:31.680 who does nothing have as much, say as I do? 2752 02:56:31.920 --> 02:56:35.559 Hence the proportionality right, Okay, well there's an opportunity. This 2753 02:56:35.600 --> 02:56:37.959 goes into like one of the old debates like equity 2754 02:56:38.040 --> 02:56:40.559 versus equality? Are we trying to give everyone an opportunity? 2755 02:56:40.760 --> 02:56:43.079 Or are we trying to give everyone an outcome? Like 2756 02:56:43.120 --> 02:56:47.879 these are mentality differences that arise out of different economic 2757 02:56:48.879 --> 02:56:52.799 social organizations. So I know, I just throw a whole 2758 02:56:52.840 --> 02:56:54.360 bunch atch you. Maybe I'll take a pause there and 2759 02:56:54.440 --> 02:56:55.639 let you pick apart from that. 2760 02:56:57.719 --> 02:57:00.680 Uh No, I mean I think that that it's uh, 2761 02:57:01.479 --> 02:57:04.399 it's something that's been covered on this on the show 2762 02:57:04.520 --> 02:57:10.639 endlessly managerialism versus a role by experts or you know, 2763 02:57:10.760 --> 02:57:15.200 role by asarc So, uh, the next thing I wanted 2764 02:57:15.200 --> 02:57:19.680 to move on to was just touch on this, you know, 2765 02:57:19.799 --> 02:57:22.280 as quick as quick as we can, because I really 2766 02:57:22.319 --> 02:57:25.079 want to talk about a Louis a little bit and 2767 02:57:25.159 --> 02:57:31.200 get into a liule and condoment the the idea that 2768 02:57:31.840 --> 02:57:36.280 unconscious group dynamics and not individual brainwashing drive shifts and 2769 02:57:36.440 --> 02:57:42.680 culture and how the American myth of individualism, you know, 2770 02:57:42.799 --> 02:57:46.360 as a noble as a noble lie, obscures how social 2771 02:57:46.399 --> 02:57:49.440 forces shape behavior. Talk a little bit about that. 2772 02:57:50.000 --> 02:57:56.559 Yeah, So I came. I came into contact with the 2773 02:57:56.600 --> 02:58:00.280 work of a German, very well celebrated germansy colug Just 2774 02:58:00.319 --> 02:58:02.920 his name is Gerd. I'm probably butchering it. He has 2775 02:58:02.959 --> 02:58:05.159 a name like straight out of German folklore, and he 2776 02:58:05.239 --> 02:58:08.920 looks like like, you know, like the most German Man 2777 02:58:08.959 --> 02:58:12.399 on earth, a gird gigorinzer or gigerenz or. I have 2778 02:58:12.440 --> 02:58:13.440 no idea how you would say it. 2779 02:58:13.840 --> 02:58:17.120 Oh, I have no clue. I look, no no idea. 2780 02:58:18.159 --> 02:58:23.520 He's a psychologist and well a little bit of context. 2781 02:58:23.680 --> 02:58:25.799 One thing that's really interesting to me about the last 2782 02:58:25.840 --> 02:58:30.479 twenty years of psychology publishing, popular publishing, academic publishing is 2783 02:58:30.520 --> 02:58:33.319 that since the turn of the century there has been 2784 02:58:33.360 --> 02:58:42.319 an extreme focus on irrationality, on what's sometimes called choice architecture, 2785 02:58:42.680 --> 02:58:48.719 a decision making basically cognition, but in terms of our 2786 02:58:48.840 --> 02:58:54.399 capacity to choose. What are the actual cognitive mechanisms that 2787 02:58:54.479 --> 02:58:57.159 are responsible for a decision making process, When do they 2788 02:58:57.159 --> 02:58:59.799 go right, when do they go wrong? What are their limitations? 2789 02:59:00.399 --> 02:59:03.680 This stretches all the way back to the really the 2790 02:59:03.760 --> 02:59:06.680 early twentieth century. I want to say, Herbert Spencer. Maybe 2791 02:59:07.559 --> 02:59:09.879 I could be mixing up some of my names, but 2792 02:59:10.360 --> 02:59:13.000 in the early to midish nineteen sixties you had what 2793 02:59:13.120 --> 02:59:17.959 was called the probabilistic revolution in the social sciences. What 2794 02:59:18.079 --> 02:59:23.920 basically refers to statisticians gained a lot of influence in 2795 02:59:24.280 --> 02:59:29.559 academic psychological research. And so there became this quantitive intent, 2796 02:59:29.840 --> 02:59:35.959 heavy focus on quantitative sort of mathematical reasoning to understand 2797 02:59:36.000 --> 02:59:40.120 and explain social behavior. And one of the people that 2798 02:59:40.200 --> 02:59:43.920 was at the start of that was Daniel Koneman. Now 2799 02:59:44.000 --> 02:59:46.159 let's just table that now, just to give some context 2800 02:59:46.159 --> 02:59:49.319 for the audience. So Gert Gigorenzer is working sort of 2801 02:59:49.360 --> 02:59:52.520 in this milieu, but he's coming at it from a 2802 02:59:52.520 --> 02:59:56.360 different point of view. One of the actually he's kind 2803 02:59:56.399 --> 03:00:00.520 of like hearkening back to the very earliest the theorists 2804 03:00:00.719 --> 03:00:07.840 theoreticians in this statistical revolution. He's basically saying that there's 2805 03:00:09.079 --> 03:00:12.719 and this this is contrasting to the Daniel Connomans of 2806 03:00:12.719 --> 03:00:16.559 the world, basically saying that there's a type of logic 2807 03:00:16.840 --> 03:00:21.200 that humans engage in that you could say is intrinsic 2808 03:00:21.280 --> 03:00:26.440 to our decision making process. It's not arbitrary, it's actually evolutionary. 2809 03:00:28.000 --> 03:00:33.280 And it's not only evolutionary, it's environmentally bound. Right, So 2810 03:00:33.319 --> 03:00:37.239 in other words, thinking of human cognition, we need to 2811 03:00:37.239 --> 03:00:40.360 think of it as something that developed within a context. 2812 03:00:41.440 --> 03:00:43.559 We need to think of it as something that developed 2813 03:00:44.239 --> 03:00:52.440 according to certain evolutionary pressures and limitations selection pressures, for example. 2814 03:00:53.360 --> 03:00:56.479 So he and again, I won't spill all the beans. 2815 03:00:56.559 --> 03:00:58.399 I'll leave some for your you know, your audience, if 2816 03:00:58.440 --> 03:01:00.120 they want to read it. I hope you do. Get 2817 03:01:00.159 --> 03:01:03.920 up an Anaal up Hill Publishing. He basically says that 2818 03:01:07.280 --> 03:01:11.040 there are three rules of human social organization, more or less, 2819 03:01:12.280 --> 03:01:17.040 and and there's actually no getting around them. There's no 2820 03:01:17.200 --> 03:01:20.680 you can't break them, you can't refine them. They are 2821 03:01:21.079 --> 03:01:27.120 fine tuned over countless generations of evolution. So when I 2822 03:01:27.159 --> 03:01:31.799 read that, my first thought was, and you know, it's 2823 03:01:31.879 --> 03:01:34.879 getting involved in all this radical politics stuff. I'm kind 2824 03:01:34.920 --> 03:01:37.840 of a neophyte still. I've only since like twenty fourteen, 2825 03:01:37.920 --> 03:01:41.200 twenty fifteen really been thinking this way. And one of 2826 03:01:41.239 --> 03:01:43.239 the like the kind one of the thoughts that are 2827 03:01:43.559 --> 03:01:46.479 or just like repeating questions I've always had, is actually 2828 03:01:46.479 --> 03:01:48.920 the subtitle of the essay that you referenced, you know, 2829 03:01:49.000 --> 03:01:51.920 how did things get this bad? You know, we're always 2830 03:01:52.000 --> 03:01:54.879 constantly asking ourselves, like why are people like this? How 2831 03:01:54.879 --> 03:01:57.120 do things get this way? Would you know or we 2832 03:01:57.159 --> 03:02:00.360 play the historical revision game? You know, would think be 2833 03:02:00.399 --> 03:02:03.600 different if you know Group X won this war as 2834 03:02:03.600 --> 03:02:06.200 opposed to group why, or you know, if this president 2835 03:02:06.239 --> 03:02:09.319 won this election or this, and we're we're always asking 2836 03:02:09.319 --> 03:02:11.799 ourselves like, why are people like this? How did things 2837 03:02:11.840 --> 03:02:13.920 get this way? The point of my essay is to 2838 03:02:13.959 --> 03:02:19.840 say that there's a profoundly evolutionary reason for people to 2839 03:02:20.000 --> 03:02:27.879 become conformist, because conformism is effectively an evolutionary mechanism, or 2840 03:02:27.920 --> 03:02:29.959 at least for us, it's this sort of thing we've 2841 03:02:29.959 --> 03:02:39.000 accumulated that helps us to deal with ambiguity, uncertainty, catastrophe, risk, danger. 2842 03:02:39.639 --> 03:02:42.879 You can't know everything, it's impossible to know everything, it's 2843 03:02:42.920 --> 03:02:46.559 impossible to account for everything. And really all we can 2844 03:02:46.639 --> 03:02:49.799 do is just, you know, look to the person to 2845 03:02:49.879 --> 03:02:52.479 our left and right and do what they're doing. And 2846 03:02:52.840 --> 03:02:55.719 this is like deeply encoded into us. And so it's 2847 03:02:55.799 --> 03:02:59.200 very common for people to think like, well, it's it's 2848 03:02:59.239 --> 03:03:02.600 what the universe did. It was brainwashing through media, it 2849 03:03:02.680 --> 03:03:06.639 was brainwashing through Hollywood, it was brainwashing through the universities 2850 03:03:06.680 --> 03:03:09.280 and the academics. And I'm not saying that that's wrong. 2851 03:03:09.399 --> 03:03:11.600 I'm not saying that that didn't play a role. What 2852 03:03:11.639 --> 03:03:15.120 I'm saying is that before you ever read fucuou in 2853 03:03:15.239 --> 03:03:18.559 freshman year of college, before you ever turned on the 2854 03:03:18.639 --> 03:03:23.319 TV and saw some subliminal, licentious thing getting beamed into 2855 03:03:23.319 --> 03:03:28.280 your brain. You were conforming to the social dynamics in 2856 03:03:28.319 --> 03:03:32.479 your home, at the park, in the classroom, at the 2857 03:03:32.559 --> 03:03:36.520 lunch table. And these are the things we need to 2858 03:03:36.520 --> 03:03:40.319 think about in terms of why and how people adopt 2859 03:03:40.559 --> 03:03:44.200 certain political beliefs. And the real point of that I 2860 03:03:44.239 --> 03:03:50.879 was trying to drive home in that essay. Maybe I'm 2861 03:03:50.959 --> 03:03:52.799 kind of a bleeding heart here. You tell me if 2862 03:03:52.840 --> 03:03:56.239 you agree or disagree. The point I was trying to 2863 03:03:56.319 --> 03:03:58.920 drive home is that we want to have actually empathy 2864 03:03:59.559 --> 03:04:02.440 because like a libtard moment, we want to actually have 2865 03:04:02.479 --> 03:04:06.120 a sort of like patience and compassion for people, because 2866 03:04:06.120 --> 03:04:09.239 it's very common for us who are sort of like 2867 03:04:09.319 --> 03:04:12.520 initiated and know a little bit about this, to get 2868 03:04:12.559 --> 03:04:16.760 angry and bitter and like man, like you should know better, 2869 03:04:16.920 --> 03:04:20.040 or you got duped, or you were brainwashed by the 2870 03:04:20.440 --> 03:04:24.079 by the race communists or the woke mind virus. Actually, 2871 03:04:24.120 --> 03:04:28.120 most people have no idea consciously in an intellectual way 2872 03:04:28.319 --> 03:04:32.719 about what's happening around them. They're just simply imitating what 2873 03:04:32.799 --> 03:04:37.000 the people around them are doing. They are simply using 2874 03:04:37.040 --> 03:04:40.079 the same solutions that have worked for the people around 2875 03:04:40.079 --> 03:04:44.360 them in a sort of unthinking, unconscious way, because it's 2876 03:04:44.399 --> 03:04:50.120 actually too mentally taxing, cognitively demanding, and socially punishing, ostracizing 2877 03:04:50.639 --> 03:04:53.319 to get into the weeds on every one of these 2878 03:04:53.319 --> 03:04:57.280 individual issues, whether we're talking about LGBT or we're thinking 2879 03:04:57.319 --> 03:05:02.799 about tariffs or the immigration policy or whatever. Most people 2880 03:05:03.479 --> 03:05:07.559 don't think there is no actual rational, cognitive, sort of 2881 03:05:07.600 --> 03:05:12.520 deliberative process going on. It's just simply people going along 2882 03:05:12.600 --> 03:05:15.520 and getting along. And when I read his book in 2883 03:05:15.559 --> 03:05:17.680 the Wild, actually I bought a bunch of his books 2884 03:05:17.719 --> 03:05:19.959 and read a bunch of his papers around that time 2885 03:05:20.079 --> 03:05:22.600 when I was writing this, it gave me a profound 2886 03:05:23.399 --> 03:05:26.680 Actually it felt like I was being like liberated, liberated 2887 03:05:26.719 --> 03:05:30.200 by like this sort of anger at other people, like 2888 03:05:30.559 --> 03:05:33.879 why aren't you taking up this challenge like I'm taking 2889 03:05:33.959 --> 03:05:38.120 it up. Why aren't you trying to decode all of 2890 03:05:37.559 --> 03:05:42.000 the bullshit? And why aren't you willing to ostracize yourself 2891 03:05:42.040 --> 03:05:43.879 from your friends and your family in the name of 2892 03:05:43.920 --> 03:05:47.280 the truth. Because that's not actually what the kinds of 2893 03:05:47.360 --> 03:05:51.440 foundational social dynamics we've evolved to function with. That's not 2894 03:05:51.520 --> 03:05:53.719 how they operate. Which isn't to say that they're like 2895 03:05:53.799 --> 03:05:56.920 deviant or pathological. It just means that you know, people 2896 03:05:56.920 --> 03:05:59.479 like you and me are like a different breed of 2897 03:05:59.520 --> 03:06:03.399 person basically. And if we're getting in front of an audience, 2898 03:06:04.440 --> 03:06:06.520 whether it's you and your podcast or me and my 2899 03:06:06.600 --> 03:06:09.719 blog or whatever, or somebody at like a rally or 2900 03:06:09.719 --> 03:06:12.760 a pub, you actually have to have like some heart 2901 03:06:12.959 --> 03:06:15.120 for the people in front of you, the people who 2902 03:06:15.159 --> 03:06:18.360 are gathered around you, because they don't actually know better. 2903 03:06:18.600 --> 03:06:20.680 And most of the time people treat that as a 2904 03:06:20.760 --> 03:06:23.879 sort of insult or a smear, or they say in 2905 03:06:23.920 --> 03:06:27.280 a pejorative and condescending way in the same way that 2906 03:06:27.440 --> 03:06:29.479 I don't know any better when it comes to physics 2907 03:06:29.719 --> 03:06:34.159 or mechanical engineering. Doesn't make me like a loser or 2908 03:06:34.200 --> 03:06:37.120 a conservative or a dueb or whatever. It just means 2909 03:06:37.639 --> 03:06:41.360 I don't have that specialization. I would need to rely 2910 03:06:41.600 --> 03:06:44.920 on a well meaning expert. I think, to the point 2911 03:06:44.920 --> 03:06:48.559 of that essay, people believe and act the way they 2912 03:06:48.600 --> 03:06:54.120 do far less for deliberative, conscious reasons than they do 2913 03:06:54.520 --> 03:07:01.559 for invisible social dynamics that mind and tether people together. 2914 03:07:01.680 --> 03:07:05.360 That was another really long winded answer, So I apologize. 2915 03:07:06.000 --> 03:07:08.639 I don't want to be a pedant but I think 2916 03:07:08.719 --> 03:07:12.959 when using the term empathy, we have to be able 2917 03:07:13.040 --> 03:07:18.840 to separate what's known as effective empathy and cognitive empathy. 2918 03:07:20.399 --> 03:07:24.479 Cognitive empathy is the ability to see another person's perspective. 2919 03:07:25.760 --> 03:07:28.840 Effective empathy is the more dangerous one, and I think 2920 03:07:28.879 --> 03:07:33.680 it's what's taken over a large amount of the left 2921 03:07:33.959 --> 03:07:39.680 and progressivism, which is being able to understand one's another 2922 03:07:39.760 --> 03:07:45.760 person's emotions, but also sharing them with them, trying to 2923 03:07:45.799 --> 03:07:49.280 share their experience. I don't have any interest in that. 2924 03:07:50.600 --> 03:07:57.079 Understanding is a much different thing than actually seeking to 2925 03:07:58.520 --> 03:08:03.079 seeking to put myself and to try to feel exactly 2926 03:08:03.120 --> 03:08:07.120 what they're feeling. I think that leads that leads us 2927 03:08:07.159 --> 03:08:16.520 down the path of the where you that what's become 2928 03:08:16.559 --> 03:08:20.120 the meme of how you know, most people who would 2929 03:08:20.120 --> 03:08:23.479 be right wing care about the people most around them, 2930 03:08:23.600 --> 03:08:27.319 and then out here it's the people, yeah, the heat map, 2931 03:08:27.799 --> 03:08:31.440 and I think the we have to be careful of that. 2932 03:08:32.479 --> 03:08:37.920 Understanding where people are coming from is one thing real 2933 03:08:38.520 --> 03:08:43.120 that that section of empathy which has become the most popular, 2934 03:08:43.559 --> 03:08:46.639 where you're trying where they want you to share and 2935 03:08:46.719 --> 03:08:49.360 feel what other people are feeling. I have no interest 2936 03:08:49.399 --> 03:08:50.719 in that. I have enough I have enough of my 2937 03:08:50.760 --> 03:08:51.440 own problems. 2938 03:08:51.920 --> 03:08:55.959 Yeah. I give three examples in that essay, and they 2939 03:08:56.000 --> 03:08:59.000 all are examples of cognitive empathy. So I'm glad you 2940 03:08:59.000 --> 03:09:01.799 made that distinction. I mean affective empathy. That's the sort 2941 03:09:01.840 --> 03:09:06.600 of Again, I don't say this in a really negative way, 2942 03:09:06.639 --> 03:09:09.360 but it's kind of how we've ended up in this squishy, 2943 03:09:10.639 --> 03:09:15.200 womanly school marm kind of mentality where it's like, well, 2944 03:09:15.200 --> 03:09:17.639 how do you feel if that happened to you, Well, 2945 03:09:17.680 --> 03:09:21.520 I would feel bad, So then don't judge them so harshly. 2946 03:09:21.559 --> 03:09:25.159 It's like, that's not constructive. But one of the examples 2947 03:09:25.159 --> 03:09:33.239 I give, if I can remember, one of Gigrinser's one 2948 03:09:33.239 --> 03:09:36.959 of his three rules is basically the default rule that 2949 03:09:37.040 --> 03:09:42.159 if there's no other solution, then you do what everyone 2950 03:09:42.159 --> 03:09:47.559 else has done previously. And I give the example of somebody, 2951 03:09:47.920 --> 03:09:52.440 a young man who enlists in the US military in 2952 03:09:52.479 --> 03:09:55.120 two thousand and two or two thousand and three, and 2953 03:09:55.159 --> 03:09:58.280 they did that for rule one, do what other people 2954 03:09:58.280 --> 03:10:00.520 around you do. And so if you're a young man 2955 03:10:00.559 --> 03:10:02.520 and you're watching TV and all of the men in 2956 03:10:02.559 --> 03:10:06.000 your family are like, this is fucking a travesty. We 2957 03:10:06.040 --> 03:10:07.920 need to go to war, we need to defend America. 2958 03:10:07.959 --> 03:10:10.040 You think, yes, it's a travesty. I need to go 2959 03:10:10.079 --> 03:10:13.319 to war. I need to defend America. Maybe maybe ten 2960 03:10:13.360 --> 03:10:15.920 other guys from your high school classroom did that, and 2961 03:10:15.920 --> 03:10:19.360 you're like, I'm gonna do that. And then you go 2962 03:10:19.639 --> 03:10:22.600 and it's awful and you come back and you're a 2963 03:10:22.639 --> 03:10:27.360 fucking mess and you look around at your other peers, 2964 03:10:28.680 --> 03:10:32.520 other guys who you enlisted with, and they're developing drug 2965 03:10:32.559 --> 03:10:34.719 problems or they kill themselves, and what do you do? 2966 03:10:35.559 --> 03:10:40.520 You develop a drug problem and you kill yourself, and 2967 03:10:41.120 --> 03:10:42.920 like that's the default. This is like a very sort 2968 03:10:42.920 --> 03:10:46.239 of like bleak way of applying it, but it gave 2969 03:10:46.360 --> 03:10:49.879 me a greater understanding. It's like, how does that happen? 2970 03:10:50.200 --> 03:10:52.799 Does it happen because we didn't give them enough education? 2971 03:10:53.319 --> 03:10:57.000 Did it happen because they didn't have enough socialization time? 2972 03:10:57.120 --> 03:11:00.040 Did it happen because like all of these were not 2973 03:11:00.120 --> 03:11:04.239 trying to understand the real problem types of explanations. It's like, no, 2974 03:11:04.360 --> 03:11:07.239 he did it for like the three basic rules of 2975 03:11:07.280 --> 03:11:11.000 social organization. You do what everyone else does. If there's 2976 03:11:11.040 --> 03:11:14.000 no other solution, you do the solution that everyone else 2977 03:11:14.319 --> 03:11:17.479 has been using. And if you're a young guy who 2978 03:11:17.600 --> 03:11:20.959 enlisted in the military. Well, you see a lot of 2979 03:11:21.319 --> 03:11:25.000 your peers falling apart completely and maybe killing themselves. Or 2980 03:11:25.959 --> 03:11:31.799 another example I use is like a freshman aged college girl. 2981 03:11:32.280 --> 03:11:35.040 You know, how do they all fall into or how 2982 03:11:35.079 --> 03:11:39.239 does so many of them fall into this like destructive, licentious, 2983 03:11:39.399 --> 03:11:44.760 borderline pornographic sexual behavior because they looked around what the 2984 03:11:44.760 --> 03:11:48.319 people around them were doing, and they defaulted back to 2985 03:11:48.479 --> 03:11:51.520 the same type of social behavior that most of the 2986 03:11:51.520 --> 03:11:54.159 people around them were engaging it. And I think if 2987 03:11:54.200 --> 03:11:58.159 you can understand the degree to which just about everybody 2988 03:11:58.200 --> 03:12:02.040 you know is engage aged in some kind of like mimesis, 2989 03:12:02.719 --> 03:12:07.639 then it really does de emphasize the extent to which 2990 03:12:07.680 --> 03:12:15.600 you think of them as a competent, individually, rationally minded person. Now, 2991 03:12:15.600 --> 03:12:19.840 they may also be those things, but we are most 2992 03:12:19.879 --> 03:12:22.639 of the time we are that in a very limited capacity. 2993 03:12:23.600 --> 03:12:27.719 You go to the hospital, your physician is giving you 2994 03:12:27.760 --> 03:12:30.440 all these scans and using all of this large, you know, 2995 03:12:32.680 --> 03:12:36.959 fifty thousand dollars words, and they're flexing their upper learning 2996 03:12:37.000 --> 03:12:39.280 degrees at you, and you're like, Wow, this guy's really smart. 2997 03:12:40.360 --> 03:12:42.600 And then they turn around and then they watch Bill 2998 03:12:42.639 --> 03:12:48.000 Maher and what then they vote for Kamala Harris or whatever. 2999 03:12:48.000 --> 03:12:50.520 You're like, Wait, I thought you were like a thinking person. 3000 03:12:51.040 --> 03:12:58.479 You realize actually this that type of demanding, deliberative cognitive function. 3001 03:12:59.319 --> 03:13:00.959 You know, if there was a big pie chart, how 3002 03:13:01.040 --> 03:13:03.719 much of your life you're you know, you're actually engaged 3003 03:13:03.719 --> 03:13:05.680 in that. It's a tiny sliver of the pie. Most 3004 03:13:05.719 --> 03:13:07.920 of the rest of it is. I mean, why did 3005 03:13:07.959 --> 03:13:10.000 that guy end up in medical school in the first place. 3006 03:13:10.280 --> 03:13:12.120 Because he looked to his left and his right and 3007 03:13:12.159 --> 03:13:15.399 that's what the people around him were doing. Or because 3008 03:13:15.399 --> 03:13:18.239 someone from on high their their father, their mother, their 3009 03:13:18.239 --> 03:13:20.559 grandfather said you're going to do this, and so they 3010 03:13:20.559 --> 03:13:28.120 did it. It wasn't a deliberative, individualistic process of rational choice. 3011 03:13:28.200 --> 03:13:35.360 It was unconscious, evolutionarily informed social process. So all that 3012 03:13:35.440 --> 03:13:38.399 to say, I agree with you. We have to be 3013 03:13:38.440 --> 03:13:42.079 careful about the E word, and my essay does skew 3014 03:13:42.280 --> 03:13:45.280 on the cognitive empathy and not the affective empathy. So 3015 03:13:45.280 --> 03:13:46.440 I appreciate you bringing that up. 3016 03:13:47.719 --> 03:13:50.799 No problem. Let's move on to Connoman because you've already 3017 03:13:51.000 --> 03:13:56.200 mentioned him. Daniel Conneman. He basically portrays human cognition as 3018 03:13:56.239 --> 03:14:01.680 inherently flawed. How does that? How does that bolster a 3019 03:14:01.719 --> 03:14:06.239 move towards technocracy and yeah, I mean you mentioned a 3020 03:14:06.319 --> 03:14:09.559 little too, so I mean whichever direction you want to 3021 03:14:09.559 --> 03:14:09.879 take that. 3022 03:14:10.639 --> 03:14:14.760 Yeah, Cooman, I remember when I remember both when the 3023 03:14:14.840 --> 03:14:17.600 Jonathan Hype book and then Daniel Connoman book came out. 3024 03:14:18.280 --> 03:14:20.159 They came out within a few years of each other, 3025 03:14:20.639 --> 03:14:23.760 and they were some of the biggest I mean, the 3026 03:14:23.840 --> 03:14:26.399 podcast circuit of ten to fifteen years ago was like 3027 03:14:26.440 --> 03:14:33.200 those two guys, like every talk show, every podcast. And 3028 03:14:33.239 --> 03:14:38.079 it's actually really really difficult to overstate how influential Daniel 3029 03:14:38.120 --> 03:14:44.520 Khnoman has been on social science research but also the 3030 03:14:44.559 --> 03:14:51.040 general intellectual culture. So Daniel Conoman's Israeli psychologist who was 3031 03:14:51.120 --> 03:14:53.360 in the idea. If he died, like last year, I 3032 03:14:53.399 --> 03:14:59.280 think killed himself, it's probably interesting. It's probably not totally 3033 03:14:59.319 --> 03:15:05.959 meaningless to out that he signed himself up for like 3034 03:15:06.000 --> 03:15:09.040 one of these you know, end of life self terminating things. 3035 03:15:09.879 --> 03:15:11.319 I don't know exactly. I don't know if you went 3036 03:15:11.360 --> 03:15:15.840 to Denmark or wherever in those countries they have. So 3037 03:15:16.879 --> 03:15:20.239 his partner, Amos Tversky. I'm probably butchering these names because 3038 03:15:20.239 --> 03:15:24.319 I'm not Israeli. They had been research partners since the 3039 03:15:24.319 --> 03:15:27.719 fifties of the sixties they were part of. They actually 3040 03:15:27.760 --> 03:15:32.079 originated what's called the Heuristics and Biases research program. So 3041 03:15:32.159 --> 03:15:34.399 to your listening audience, you know, if you ever took 3042 03:15:34.399 --> 03:15:38.079 a psych instruction to psychology class at any point when 3043 03:15:38.120 --> 03:15:41.280 you were in college, there was probably a section on 3044 03:15:41.399 --> 03:15:44.760 cognitive psychology, and a lot of it probably had to 3045 03:15:44.799 --> 03:15:49.239 do with this idea of heuristics and biases. And basically 3046 03:15:49.280 --> 03:15:53.399 the Heuristics and Biases program says that human and this 3047 03:15:54.559 --> 03:15:57.959 ger Gigorinzer accepts this, by the way, he just sort 3048 03:15:58.000 --> 03:16:02.440 of takes a different conclusion from the same general idea. 3049 03:16:02.920 --> 03:16:09.120 Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky, Uh, we're basically perpetuating this 3050 03:16:09.280 --> 03:16:13.200 line of research. They were both you know, mathematically minded, 3051 03:16:13.559 --> 03:16:18.399 statistical thinkers, so they both perpetuated through their research and 3052 03:16:18.440 --> 03:16:23.239 their public advocacy, their intellectual work, the idea that human 3053 03:16:23.280 --> 03:16:29.559 cognition is sort of a it's based on it like 3054 03:16:29.600 --> 03:16:33.280 maybe a handful of mechanisms or principles, if you want 3055 03:16:33.319 --> 03:16:40.520 to say, and we don't necessarily have an immediate ability 3056 03:16:41.120 --> 03:16:47.079 to activate those mechanisms or principles. They kind of seem 3057 03:16:47.159 --> 03:16:49.879 to have a life of their own. Uh, and they 3058 03:16:49.920 --> 03:16:54.360 work in the background, and somehow magically we draw inferences 3059 03:16:54.399 --> 03:16:58.959 and conclusions and and and and answers to things. You know, 3060 03:16:59.120 --> 03:17:01.120 Like when I as a kid growing up, my dad 3061 03:17:01.159 --> 03:17:04.120 would always say to me, you know, like, you know, 3062 03:17:04.120 --> 03:17:05.959 if you've ever got a problem you don't know the 3063 03:17:06.000 --> 03:17:08.399 answer to, you know, stop thinking about it for a while, 3064 03:17:08.440 --> 03:17:11.399 and a couple of hours later, you know, poof, it'll 3065 03:17:11.440 --> 03:17:13.799 hit you. And I was like, well, that's kind of crazy, 3066 03:17:13.959 --> 03:17:16.079 and that would happen. Maybe you go to sleep and 3067 03:17:16.120 --> 03:17:18.120 the answer comes to you in a dream, or you're 3068 03:17:18.120 --> 03:17:20.319 trying to remember the name of some actor and it 3069 03:17:20.399 --> 03:17:23.399 hits you a week later. It's like, what happened in 3070 03:17:23.399 --> 03:17:26.799 my brain that I went from really forcedly trying to 3071 03:17:26.799 --> 03:17:30.319 think about this to not and then suddenly the answer comes. Well, 3072 03:17:30.360 --> 03:17:35.200 this is the basic idea of deliberative executive cognition. There 3073 03:17:35.239 --> 03:17:40.079 are a handful of mechanisms and principles that operate somewhere 3074 03:17:40.280 --> 03:17:44.280 kind of nebulously in the mind or within human consciousness 3075 03:17:44.760 --> 03:17:51.040 that help us to think and make choices and make calculations. 3076 03:17:51.440 --> 03:17:55.520 There's a sort of a rudimentary brain calculator in there 3077 03:17:55.600 --> 03:17:59.159 that is running all these these programs and calculations, and 3078 03:17:59.200 --> 03:18:02.239 we don't really get to ever put our hands directly 3079 03:18:02.280 --> 03:18:05.879 on it. But that's how the brain works now, Caiman, 3080 03:18:06.000 --> 03:18:08.520 and I'm basically, by the way, for your audience's benefit, 3081 03:18:08.799 --> 03:18:12.399 I'm giving like a very stripped away version of that story. 3082 03:18:13.319 --> 03:18:15.159 But the important thing to take away from it is 3083 03:18:15.159 --> 03:18:21.120 that Caniman and Versky basically argued that this is an 3084 03:18:21.239 --> 03:18:30.159 inexorably flawed evolutionary process that leads us to basically make 3085 03:18:30.559 --> 03:18:34.479 a lot of errors, that human cognition is barely better 3086 03:18:34.479 --> 03:18:39.079 than a coin flip, and so their academic work was 3087 03:18:39.120 --> 03:18:44.559 about helping experts become better decision makers by providing them 3088 03:18:44.600 --> 03:18:50.639 with all of this statistically informed psychological research, which, by 3089 03:18:50.680 --> 03:18:53.719 the way, is also what Gigorenzer did. But the difference 3090 03:18:53.760 --> 03:18:58.959 between Caniman and Tversky versus gigaenzers Gigorenzer's idea was that 3091 03:19:00.360 --> 03:19:04.120 these heuristics and he didn't use the word biases, he 3092 03:19:04.280 --> 03:19:09.399 just talked about them in terms of heuristics, are like 3093 03:19:09.479 --> 03:19:11.879 it doesn't get better than that. Like, if you're telling 3094 03:19:11.920 --> 03:19:16.639 me that evolution over millennia formed our brain to work 3095 03:19:16.680 --> 03:19:18.559 in this way, then it probably did it really well 3096 03:19:18.639 --> 03:19:21.399 because just about everything else about us works really really well, 3097 03:19:22.479 --> 03:19:25.520 but you have to understand the context that the mind 3098 03:19:25.719 --> 03:19:29.200 is developing it. You have to understand the context the 3099 03:19:29.440 --> 03:19:32.840 kinds of choices we have been forced to make throughout 3100 03:19:32.920 --> 03:19:36.440 human history to understand how the brain arrives at those conclusions. 3101 03:19:36.479 --> 03:19:39.440 And obviously we're living in this sort of like fairy 3102 03:19:39.440 --> 03:19:48.120 tale Disneyland world that's completely removed from like primary evolutionary 3103 03:19:48.200 --> 03:19:53.399 selection pressures, and can you know, Gigorenzer's argument is, basically, 3104 03:19:54.000 --> 03:19:59.920 we've got this finely tuned cognitive organ that now has 3105 03:20:00.200 --> 03:20:07.680 to deal with a wildly unpredictable, unstable, information rich environment, 3106 03:20:08.239 --> 03:20:12.559 which is a you know, historically a unique circumstance that 3107 03:20:12.639 --> 03:20:15.680 we've really never there's a very little precedent for it 3108 03:20:15.799 --> 03:20:18.440 in the past. And so when humans make mistakes, it's 3109 03:20:18.479 --> 03:20:23.399 because we are We have evolved in these niches, these 3110 03:20:23.440 --> 03:20:29.120 tightly bound ecological niches, to produce certain types of solutions 3111 03:20:29.360 --> 03:20:33.200 and to think about information in a particular way. We 3112 03:20:33.239 --> 03:20:34.879 don't live in that world if you want to think, 3113 03:20:34.920 --> 03:20:36.239 if you want to zoom out and say, you know, 3114 03:20:36.440 --> 03:20:39.799 the world of scarcity versus the world of abundance. Right 3115 03:20:39.879 --> 03:20:42.639 in the world of scarcity, there's limited resources there's also 3116 03:20:42.719 --> 03:20:46.200 limited information, there's limited choices to me. But in a 3117 03:20:46.239 --> 03:20:48.879 world of abundance, such as as the one that we 3118 03:20:48.959 --> 03:20:51.200 live in, to the extent that you could say it's 3119 03:20:51.200 --> 03:20:55.200 a world of abundance, well, you see things like, well, 3120 03:20:55.200 --> 03:20:57.440 there's a great study that got published some years ago. 3121 03:20:59.520 --> 03:21:04.479 I'll ask you, actually, there's a magical number after which, 3122 03:21:05.200 --> 03:21:08.159 once presented with this number a number of options, humans 3123 03:21:08.200 --> 03:21:12.319 actually are not able to make a meaningful choice. Do 3124 03:21:12.360 --> 03:21:13.280 you know what that number is? 3125 03:21:14.799 --> 03:21:15.680 I don't, I don't. 3126 03:21:16.159 --> 03:21:18.920 I think it's about a dozen, okay, between six and 3127 03:21:18.959 --> 03:21:20.559 twelve six. 3128 03:21:20.719 --> 03:21:21.680 Yeah. Yeah. 3129 03:21:22.079 --> 03:21:27.159 So, like you go trying to buy a car, you 3130 03:21:27.239 --> 03:21:31.200 see like three dozen cars on the lot. It's like, well, meaningfully, 3131 03:21:31.920 --> 03:21:34.479 how do I know which is the right car for me? 3132 03:21:34.719 --> 03:21:37.159 Or you go shopping for clothing like me, and you 3133 03:21:37.200 --> 03:21:40.120 go down the mail the aisle and you see like 3134 03:21:40.719 --> 03:21:44.159 thirty gazillion racks of genes and you're like, I just 3135 03:21:44.159 --> 03:21:45.799 need a fucking pair of pants. Man, Like, I don't 3136 03:21:45.840 --> 03:21:48.559 even know what I'm looking at. You know, this abundant, 3137 03:21:48.600 --> 03:21:54.920 information rich environment is not something we're really evolutionarily adapted to. 3138 03:21:55.799 --> 03:21:59.239 For gigaenz are, that's not a fundamental problem with human 3139 03:21:59.360 --> 03:22:03.520 cognition for Kaniman it is and so Canaman. The thing 3140 03:22:03.520 --> 03:22:07.760 that's even more interesting about Caneman about not just his 3141 03:22:08.239 --> 03:22:12.280 academic research program, but also his affiliations. If you read 3142 03:22:12.280 --> 03:22:14.280 his book Thinking Fast and Slow, which you won a 3143 03:22:14.280 --> 03:22:18.159 Nobel Prize for Nobel Prize and Behavioral Economy, he's talking 3144 03:22:18.159 --> 03:22:22.639 about his good friend cast SUNS team. My gread friend 3145 03:22:22.680 --> 03:22:25.120 cast SUNS team whose judgment I trust so well. Who 3146 03:22:25.159 --> 03:22:26.040 at the same time that. 3147 03:22:26.920 --> 03:22:30.479 I mean, I mean Condoman like was literally born in 3148 03:22:30.600 --> 03:22:35.360 mandatory Palestine in like the thirties. Yes, it went to Paris. 3149 03:22:35.440 --> 03:22:39.760 His parents escaped Paris because you know, the evil Nazis 3150 03:22:39.799 --> 03:22:43.520 came to power, they moved back to Palestine, like right 3151 03:22:43.559 --> 03:22:49.920 before before it became Israel. I mean this is you 3152 03:22:49.959 --> 03:22:53.680 want to talk about having your child, like having your life, 3153 03:22:53.920 --> 03:22:57.319 your life's attitude set up for you right from the start. 3154 03:22:58.360 --> 03:23:04.879 Yeah, it's a very charm life. So you know, there's 3155 03:23:04.879 --> 03:23:06.639 so much to say about kind of and it's actually 3156 03:23:06.639 --> 03:23:08.360 the one essay I'm the most proud of because it 3157 03:23:08.399 --> 03:23:10.120 really gets to a lot of things that have bothered 3158 03:23:10.159 --> 03:23:12.040 me over the course of my life. I'll just say this, 3159 03:23:13.000 --> 03:23:16.200 you know, all throughout Countiman's kind of portraying himself as 3160 03:23:16.280 --> 03:23:20.159 on the side of like Joshmo, you know, here's all 3161 03:23:20.200 --> 03:23:22.680 this research showing that you're kind of a dummy, but 3162 03:23:22.719 --> 03:23:25.120 don't worry. You know, you're my dummy, and I'm going 3163 03:23:25.200 --> 03:23:27.440 to make sure nothing Dad happens to you. So he 3164 03:23:27.479 --> 03:23:31.120 has this sort of libertarian ethic about him where he 3165 03:23:31.120 --> 03:23:34.879 talks about the need for sort of paternalism because people 3166 03:23:34.959 --> 03:23:37.520 are so dumb and can't think straight and can't make 3167 03:23:37.559 --> 03:23:40.799 decisions for themselves. That means that they are at they 3168 03:23:40.799 --> 03:23:45.520 are easy prey for other people who would want, you know, demagogues, 3169 03:23:45.520 --> 03:23:48.639 people who'd want to manipulate them, what have you. And 3170 03:23:48.719 --> 03:23:51.280 he treats he views his research as basically a way 3171 03:23:51.319 --> 03:23:55.120 to help Joshmo navigate this world of complexity that he's 3172 03:23:55.159 --> 03:23:59.200 just too much of a dumb gentile group to navigate 3173 03:23:59.239 --> 03:24:02.239 on his own. And he keeps talking about it's just 3174 03:24:02.280 --> 03:24:04.000 really funny the way he keeps talking about people like 3175 03:24:04.440 --> 03:24:08.280 Cass Sunstein. You know, my good friend Cass Sunstein with 3176 03:24:08.319 --> 03:24:11.200 his tremendous work. Meanwhile, at the same time Canman's writing 3177 03:24:11.239 --> 03:24:14.200 that book, Cass Sunstein is writing his a series of 3178 03:24:14.200 --> 03:24:18.920 white papers with people like Adrian Vermule on conspiracy theories, 3179 03:24:19.040 --> 03:24:24.280 on cognitive infiltration, on like the og misinformation, like his 3180 03:24:24.360 --> 03:24:28.600 whole idea of cognitive infiltration, Cass Sunstein. That is was literally, 3181 03:24:28.719 --> 03:24:31.879 we're going to go into spaces where people are generating 3182 03:24:32.000 --> 03:24:35.920 novel explanations for political and social crises, and we're going 3183 03:24:36.000 --> 03:24:40.520 to fuck it up by deliberately throwing in pants on 3184 03:24:40.840 --> 03:24:46.760 on you know, ahead retarded counter conspiracy theories. So it's 3185 03:24:46.799 --> 03:24:49.239 a really really dangerous situation. I'll put it. I'll put 3186 03:24:49.239 --> 03:24:51.000 a bone it real quick, just like you. 3187 03:24:51.040 --> 03:24:56.760 Just describe right wing Twitter or what I mean. 3188 03:24:57.799 --> 03:25:00.760 That was one of his big bugaboos was the Internet. 3189 03:25:00.760 --> 03:25:03.920 It's basically, you know, his essay on conspiracy theories was 3190 03:25:04.000 --> 03:25:08.719 directly about nine to eleven and the Israel conspiracies. We're 3191 03:25:08.760 --> 03:25:11.200 in this unit two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, 3192 03:25:11.760 --> 03:25:15.040 so not like at the birth of the Internet or 3193 03:25:15.079 --> 03:25:19.040 even the birth of like, you know, AOL, within ten 3194 03:25:19.120 --> 03:25:22.239 years of it, and he's basically saying, it's a really 3195 03:25:22.239 --> 03:25:25.040 big problem that all of he doesn't say this, but 3196 03:25:25.239 --> 03:25:28.760 I'm editorializing a little bit. Cass Snstein is basically saying 3197 03:25:28.799 --> 03:25:32.079 to people, it's a problem that these dumb, gentile rubs 3198 03:25:32.479 --> 03:25:35.600 are looking at Israel the wrong way, and we need 3199 03:25:35.639 --> 03:25:39.159 to figure out a solution to discourage them from doing that. 3200 03:25:39.200 --> 03:25:41.520 And if we can't discourage them, we have to make 3201 03:25:41.559 --> 03:25:48.879 the information economy so contaminated and unreliable that no social 3202 03:25:48.879 --> 03:25:52.760 transformation can come as a result of that. And so 3203 03:25:52.799 --> 03:25:55.639 that's the reason I wrote about Knoman is because the 3204 03:25:56.159 --> 03:26:01.600 basic conclusion of his research is that humans need a 3205 03:26:01.680 --> 03:26:06.559 class of credentialed technological experts to do the thinking for them. 3206 03:26:07.399 --> 03:26:13.959 And you mentioned elul Eluill, famous French sociologist, probably published 3207 03:26:13.959 --> 03:26:15.360 like one hundred books. He might be one of the 3208 03:26:15.840 --> 03:26:18.000 one of the most prolific writers of all time. He's 3209 03:26:18.040 --> 03:26:21.840 a Christian, he was an anarchist, and he was French. 3210 03:26:22.680 --> 03:26:27.840 That was the worst part about him. He basically argued 3211 03:26:28.239 --> 03:26:31.600 all the way back in the nineteen sixties that there's 3212 03:26:31.639 --> 03:26:38.000 this encroaching metaphysical problem in human society is called technique. 3213 03:26:39.799 --> 03:26:42.600 This is very actually very complicated his definition of technique. 3214 03:26:42.639 --> 03:26:45.200 So I won't really get into it here on the 3215 03:26:45.200 --> 03:26:48.280 show with you. I give a lot of time in 3216 03:26:48.319 --> 03:26:50.680 the essay explaining it in a lot of different perspectives. 3217 03:26:50.719 --> 03:26:53.440 So it's definitely comprehensive in the book, but basically he 3218 03:26:53.479 --> 03:26:57.319 says that, you know, technique is this, to put it 3219 03:26:57.399 --> 03:27:05.479 very simply, is this sort of efficiency mechanism that throughout 3220 03:27:05.559 --> 03:27:10.159 different periods of human history was subordinated to some other 3221 03:27:10.760 --> 03:27:13.719 aspect of human social life. He says, you know, in 3222 03:27:13.879 --> 03:27:16.159 the Roman in the Greek and Roman times or the 3223 03:27:16.239 --> 03:27:22.680 Roman times, that technique was subordinated to state craft, and 3224 03:27:22.719 --> 03:27:28.239 that in the Medieval times that technique was subordinated to 3225 03:27:28.280 --> 03:27:31.079 the aims of the Church and sort of theological thinking. 3226 03:27:31.600 --> 03:27:34.559 That you know, what technique looked like in the Mid 3227 03:27:34.600 --> 03:27:41.479 Ages was you know, theologians debating sort of the minutia 3228 03:27:41.799 --> 03:27:46.879 of like Christian metaphysics. You know, how many angels can 3229 03:27:47.000 --> 03:27:50.440 dance on the head of a pin, that kind of thing. 3230 03:27:50.959 --> 03:27:54.399 But at some point in the last couple of hundred years, 3231 03:27:55.280 --> 03:28:02.479 technique has become unmoored from other social forces or other 3232 03:28:02.520 --> 03:28:06.799 social domains of human life. Technique is no longer just 3233 03:28:06.879 --> 03:28:09.399 something you do to build a better bridge, or to 3234 03:28:09.440 --> 03:28:14.040 build a better government, or to build a better cathedral, 3235 03:28:14.280 --> 03:28:16.799 or to build a better love for God. It's actually 3236 03:28:17.159 --> 03:28:23.000 its own good, its own end. That sort of like 3237 03:28:23.120 --> 03:28:27.200 colonizing every other social space, and if you look at 3238 03:28:27.239 --> 03:28:30.559 the world around you, it seems like every endeavor that 3239 03:28:30.639 --> 03:28:37.959 people are engaged in is kind of subordinated to this 3240 03:28:38.079 --> 03:28:45.200 idea of more efficiency, more productivity, more conformity. If people 3241 03:28:45.239 --> 03:28:48.479 complain about the algorithm online, it's kind of a way 3242 03:28:48.520 --> 03:28:51.040 of talking about the problem of technique. People want to 3243 03:28:51.079 --> 03:28:55.159 talk about the rapaciousness of capital, and even ilul gives 3244 03:28:55.360 --> 03:28:58.360 there's a whole section in the technological society where it 3245 03:28:58.399 --> 03:29:02.719 basically says like even in the early generations of sort 3246 03:29:02.760 --> 03:29:09.120 of like Thebarian, you know, wasp capitalism, that it was 3247 03:29:09.159 --> 03:29:13.520 still pretty much kind of confined to economic logic and 3248 03:29:13.920 --> 03:29:17.600 economic concerns, and at some point after that it became 3249 03:29:17.639 --> 03:29:23.000 its own thing. Daniel Kahneman, the people involved in this 3250 03:29:23.079 --> 03:29:29.440 heuristics and research program, contemporary technocrats are really people who 3251 03:29:29.760 --> 03:29:35.719 have become like the physical embodiment of this principle of technique, 3252 03:29:35.920 --> 03:29:40.639 where you know, we don't even care about a nation 3253 03:29:40.760 --> 03:29:44.639 state or a community. All of these things are inefficient, 3254 03:29:45.280 --> 03:29:53.399 you know, they they don't they don't grow or progress 3255 03:29:53.479 --> 03:29:55.600 on their own. There's something that Jacque Olleuwell says that 3256 03:29:55.680 --> 03:29:58.079 I consider to be a really profound thing. He says 3257 03:29:58.120 --> 03:30:04.239 people who are kind of hypnotized by the magic of technique. 3258 03:30:06.399 --> 03:30:13.440 If you talk to them and express trepidation, trepidation about 3259 03:30:14.000 --> 03:30:17.680 like the direction of technological progress, they will treat you 3260 03:30:17.959 --> 03:30:21.479 as an enemy of mankind. Like what you're not. You 3261 03:30:21.520 --> 03:30:24.280 don't want to go to Mars. You don't want to 3262 03:30:24.319 --> 03:30:29.079 replace your eyeballs with glass computers. You don't want to 3263 03:30:29.120 --> 03:30:31.959 be able to erase down syndrome from the from the 3264 03:30:32.040 --> 03:30:36.799 from the human uh, you know, DNA, like whatever thing 3265 03:30:36.879 --> 03:30:39.639 we can achieve through technological progress. If you are an 3266 03:30:39.719 --> 03:30:44.319 advocate of that, then your enemy are the Ludites and 3267 03:30:44.680 --> 03:30:47.440 you know, like the spiritually Amish people who have some 3268 03:30:47.600 --> 03:30:52.319 skepticism at the idea that we can just keep innovating 3269 03:30:52.440 --> 03:30:58.479 and progressing and making everything more technical. Just as an 3270 03:30:58.520 --> 03:31:01.159 idea or as in a example for your audience, Like 3271 03:31:02.319 --> 03:31:05.520 I love heavy metal, but I really don't like a 3272 03:31:05.520 --> 03:31:07.600 lot of heavy metal from the last twenty years, and 3273 03:31:07.639 --> 03:31:10.399 it's really taken me my whole life to figure out why. 3274 03:31:11.040 --> 03:31:16.040 If you compare Black Sabbath and Tony Iomi to I 3275 03:31:16.040 --> 03:31:19.079 don't know, the one of the guitar players from Lamb 3276 03:31:19.159 --> 03:31:24.079 of God or Trivium or some death metal band, like literally, 3277 03:31:24.159 --> 03:31:29.040 Tony Iomi grew up in like bombed out Birmingham, like 3278 03:31:29.319 --> 03:31:33.840 around the factories, and the sound of heavy metal was 3279 03:31:34.200 --> 03:31:39.559 the sound of industrial, technological society. But Tony Iomi never 3280 03:31:39.799 --> 03:31:44.319 like he still used that sound to write melodies and 3281 03:31:44.879 --> 03:31:47.920 things that sort of resonate with the human spirit and 3282 03:31:47.959 --> 03:31:50.840 our ears and are pleasing to hear. But you listen 3283 03:31:50.879 --> 03:31:54.479 to a band like My Sugar. I recently started listening 3284 03:31:54.479 --> 03:31:57.079 to My Sugar. That song bleed. The first time I 3285 03:31:57.079 --> 03:31:58.639 heard it, I was like, Wow, that sounds like an 3286 03:31:58.680 --> 03:32:02.600 airplane engine. That's such a crazy sound to make on guitar. 3287 03:32:02.799 --> 03:32:06.239 So I bought the whole album, and every single song 3288 03:32:06.440 --> 03:32:09.559 is like we're literally going to recreate the sound you know, 3289 03:32:09.760 --> 03:32:12.360 what the inside of your washing machine sounds like. And 3290 03:32:12.399 --> 03:32:16.639 it's like guitar and guitar music was, whereas in the 3291 03:32:16.680 --> 03:32:19.840 era of Black Sabbath, it's like we're sort of imitating 3292 03:32:21.120 --> 03:32:24.840 industrial society to produce music. It's like and now today 3293 03:32:24.879 --> 03:32:30.799 it's like we're sort of using music to recreate technological society. 3294 03:32:30.959 --> 03:32:34.719 It's less pleasing to listen to, it's more technically demanding. 3295 03:32:35.479 --> 03:32:38.360 The guys, you know, James Headfield has a much more 3296 03:32:38.760 --> 03:32:44.159 aggressive rhythmhand than Tony Iomi has had. But I mean, 3297 03:32:44.280 --> 03:32:47.280 is every Metallica riff as great as every Black Sabbath riff? 3298 03:32:47.319 --> 03:32:50.079 And then you know, twenty thirty years later, is who's 3299 03:32:50.120 --> 03:32:53.079 ever headlining oz Fest? Now? Are they really better than 3300 03:32:53.120 --> 03:32:57.600 Pantera was in nineteen ninety four? They may be better performers, 3301 03:32:58.120 --> 03:33:01.440 the music may be more on the hunting edge, let's say, 3302 03:33:01.600 --> 03:33:06.559 of a particular genre. But it's also like nobody buys 3303 03:33:06.559 --> 03:33:09.760 those records anymore. Nobody goes to those concerts. If you 3304 03:33:09.760 --> 03:33:11.239 want to see a Lamb of God, you've got to 3305 03:33:11.280 --> 03:33:13.799 see them like on a big festival tour with the 3306 03:33:13.799 --> 03:33:16.559 same seven or eight other bands that nobody will pay 3307 03:33:16.879 --> 03:33:19.879 to see on their own ticket. Anyway, the point I'm 3308 03:33:19.879 --> 03:33:25.399 making is that technique sucks and it ruins good things. 3309 03:33:27.120 --> 03:33:32.799 Let's uh okay, So you have an addendum that I 3310 03:33:32.799 --> 03:33:34.760 I don't even want to touch it. I want people 3311 03:33:34.799 --> 03:33:37.120 to read that on their own because you know that's 3312 03:33:37.159 --> 03:33:40.200 where you know, if we start talking about that here, 3313 03:33:40.319 --> 03:33:48.879 we're going to be We'll start getting into maybe yeah, 3314 03:33:48.920 --> 03:33:53.840 having ton couch some language, especially talking about certain groups 3315 03:33:53.840 --> 03:33:57.200 and things like that. Let's finish up talking about this. 3316 03:33:57.440 --> 03:34:00.600 Let's talk about let me ask this question, if babies 3317 03:34:00.600 --> 03:34:04.239 are boring racist, what's that means? We're just racist? Right? 3318 03:34:04.559 --> 03:34:06.159 Let me talk about Paul Bloom. 3319 03:34:06.559 --> 03:34:12.760 Yeah, so, let me tell you a short story. Back 3320 03:34:12.760 --> 03:34:18.120 when I was a university lecturer. Obviously I'm from New York. 3321 03:34:18.319 --> 03:34:21.879 I taught in New York very racially, you know, multiculturally 3322 03:34:21.959 --> 03:34:24.920 diverse in every sense of the word. So whether it 3323 03:34:25.079 --> 03:34:30.680 was Midtown Manhattan or South Brooklyn or the Bronx or 3324 03:34:32.280 --> 03:34:37.479 Nasau or Queens whatever, I had to teach the same material. 3325 03:34:38.399 --> 03:34:41.920 And one of the chapters was on human development, from 3326 03:34:41.959 --> 03:34:45.639 you know, infancy to Cradle of the Grave human psychology. 3327 03:34:46.680 --> 03:34:50.760 And at the time I was teaching, or around the 3328 03:34:50.760 --> 03:34:53.680 time I had finished graduate school, Paul Bloom had published 3329 03:34:53.680 --> 03:34:59.079 a series of studies that were, oh there were sixty 3330 03:34:59.120 --> 03:35:02.280 minutes segments on it. He got he wrote, you know, 3331 03:35:02.319 --> 03:35:06.479 New York Times bestselling books about it. Basically, he developed 3332 03:35:07.680 --> 03:35:12.280 a very unique set of research methodologies by which he 3333 03:35:12.360 --> 03:35:17.799 claimed you could get infants under twelve months old to 3334 03:35:17.879 --> 03:35:25.920 demonstrate complex social cognitive behavior, things that, according to the 3335 03:35:25.959 --> 03:35:30.840 psychological dogma of previous generations, really didn't show up until 3336 03:35:31.200 --> 03:35:36.840 like four five six seven years old. According to Paul Bloom, 3337 03:35:36.879 --> 03:35:41.760 it was present in babies as young as three months old. Basically, 3338 03:35:41.760 --> 03:35:46.520 what he would do is a kind of rudimentary friend 3339 03:35:46.760 --> 03:35:52.639 enemy distinction test, so they were so infants would and 3340 03:35:52.639 --> 03:35:54.959 there are multiple iterations of this. I won't get into 3341 03:35:55.000 --> 03:35:57.879 all the minutia of it, but one such example was 3342 03:35:59.200 --> 03:36:02.600 infants would base the watch sort of a play of 3343 03:36:02.639 --> 03:36:06.440 two dolls interacting with one another, or three dolls interacting 3344 03:36:06.479 --> 03:36:10.200 with one another, where you know, the two dolls are 3345 03:36:10.399 --> 03:36:13.680 maybe in conflict over something, and then a third doll 3346 03:36:13.799 --> 03:36:17.920 comes over and helps one. Maybe in a different iteration, 3347 03:36:18.239 --> 03:36:21.559 a third doll comes over and hurts another one. Basically, 3348 03:36:21.639 --> 03:36:27.600 the infants were They're measuring the responses of these infants 3349 03:36:27.639 --> 03:36:33.159 to either aggressive or cooperative social behavior between complete strangers. 3350 03:36:34.680 --> 03:36:37.799 So you know, generally, the outcome of the study was 3351 03:36:37.840 --> 03:36:41.639 that babies tend to like the helpers more than they 3352 03:36:42.120 --> 03:36:48.000 like the kind of anti social obstructive ones. They like 3353 03:36:48.200 --> 03:36:51.719 neutral people more than they liked hurtful people. They like 3354 03:36:52.239 --> 03:36:57.079 helpful people more than they like neutral people. And so 3355 03:36:57.120 --> 03:37:01.079 I would show the sixty minutes clip to students, and 3356 03:37:01.159 --> 03:37:04.280 invariably Paul Bloom would would try to scale up the 3357 03:37:04.319 --> 03:37:08.680 findings of this research. Okay, So Tier one is infants 3358 03:37:08.719 --> 03:37:12.879 have a preference for pro social behavior over anti social behavior. Okay, 3359 03:37:12.959 --> 03:37:15.719 So in Paul Bloom's world, that means there's a sort 3360 03:37:15.760 --> 03:37:20.760 of rudimentary faculty there pretty much from birth, where infants 3361 03:37:20.799 --> 03:37:24.719 can make a friend enemy distinction, And with each subsequent 3362 03:37:26.280 --> 03:37:32.000 iteration of this experiment, they would fold in other social conflicts, 3363 03:37:32.959 --> 03:37:36.680 including racism. And again, around the same time, there was 3364 03:37:36.719 --> 03:37:39.079 a whole bunch of studies based on what are called 3365 03:37:39.159 --> 03:37:43.760 looking time research. Methodology is basically, how long does an 3366 03:37:43.760 --> 03:37:50.319 infant stare at something, and how in particular do they 3367 03:37:50.680 --> 03:37:53.680 maintain their gaze or do they look away and get 3368 03:37:53.719 --> 03:37:56.639 bored and seek other kinds of stimulation. So at the 3369 03:37:56.639 --> 03:37:58.760 same time Paul Bloom is doing this research, there's other 3370 03:37:58.840 --> 03:38:03.120 research showing that, well, infants have a sort of racial preference. 3371 03:38:03.159 --> 03:38:05.040 You know, white babies are going to look at a 3372 03:38:05.079 --> 03:38:09.120 white face longer and more intently than they'll look at 3373 03:38:09.159 --> 03:38:12.479 a black face or a yellow face, or a red 3374 03:38:12.520 --> 03:38:14.760 face or a brown face, and so on and so forth. 3375 03:38:15.879 --> 03:38:21.719 And basically Paul blooms making this argument that we are 3376 03:38:22.040 --> 03:38:25.680 much more cognitively complex at an earlier stage and human 3377 03:38:25.799 --> 03:38:28.680 human development. That would be part one. That part two, 3378 03:38:28.799 --> 03:38:32.719 we have an innate preference for pro social or what's 3379 03:38:32.760 --> 03:38:37.520 sometimes called you social behavior. And three that part of 3380 03:38:37.600 --> 03:38:45.760 that preference is kinship preference. We have a bias towards 3381 03:38:45.920 --> 03:38:49.479 people that look like us, so on and so forth. 3382 03:38:50.440 --> 03:38:52.600 And I would show this, to go back to the 3383 03:38:52.760 --> 03:38:55.280 story time. I would show this to my students. The 3384 03:38:55.280 --> 03:38:57.719 students would be you know, as young as fresh out 3385 03:38:57.760 --> 03:39:00.639 of high school, as old as as like in their 3386 03:39:00.680 --> 03:39:03.360 fifties and sixties, trying to get another degree because the 3387 03:39:03.399 --> 03:39:09.159 economy was totally shit ten fifteen years ago, so you know, black, white, Arab, Jewish, Christian, whatever, 3388 03:39:09.319 --> 03:39:13.440 And routinely the two things I always observed, doesn't matter 3389 03:39:13.479 --> 03:39:17.079 where I taught it doesn't matter who I taught it to. One, 3390 03:39:17.120 --> 03:39:20.760 they were amazed at the idea that we have that 3391 03:39:20.840 --> 03:39:29.680 sort of cognitive sophistication that early on, so amazement. But 3392 03:39:29.799 --> 03:39:34.040 there was also a sort of horror at the idea 3393 03:39:34.719 --> 03:39:40.399 of implicating infants in the sort of nasty prejudices and 3394 03:39:41.120 --> 03:39:45.520 social evils that adults get messed up in. You know, 3395 03:39:45.520 --> 03:39:48.040 my class would be like, Okay, sure, maybe I'm racist, 3396 03:39:48.159 --> 03:39:51.799 but not like twenty four week old Timmy, he can't 3397 03:39:51.799 --> 03:39:54.479 be racist. That's you know, that's wrong. And so my 3398 03:39:54.559 --> 03:39:58.360 students had this sort of innate sense that you shouldn't 3399 03:39:58.399 --> 03:40:02.520 talk about infants that way, that you shouldn't responsibilize infants 3400 03:40:02.520 --> 03:40:04.680 that way, and that kind of sat with me for 3401 03:40:04.719 --> 03:40:07.360 a long time. And the point of the essay that 3402 03:40:07.399 --> 03:40:13.280 I basically make is there's a really really heavy presumption 3403 03:40:13.559 --> 03:40:17.879 that Paul Bloom is making that, whether it's wrong or correct, 3404 03:40:18.239 --> 03:40:22.159 the whole theory, his whole model kind of falls apart. 3405 03:40:22.520 --> 03:40:26.040 And the basic presumption he makes is that kinship is 3406 03:40:26.120 --> 03:40:31.479 a moral phenomenon as opposed to any other kind of 3407 03:40:31.879 --> 03:40:35.520 cognitive phenomenon. In other words, is it necessarily is there 3408 03:40:35.600 --> 03:40:40.280 a moral dimension to kinship preference. I think that's an 3409 03:40:40.280 --> 03:40:44.239 open question. I think it's a presumption that you're making 3410 03:40:44.799 --> 03:40:49.000 that the behavior or the type of categorization that the 3411 03:40:49.079 --> 03:40:54.120 infant is doing is necessarily moral as opposed to social, 3412 03:40:54.559 --> 03:41:00.639 as opposed to some other facet of social sorting would 3413 03:41:00.680 --> 03:41:03.479 be the technical phrase, some other type of cognitive sort 3414 03:41:03.520 --> 03:41:08.440 of Really, the only way you can, seemingly, the only 3415 03:41:08.479 --> 03:41:14.520 way you can define those behaviors as moral is if 3416 03:41:14.559 --> 03:41:18.040 you have a problem with those kinds of behaviors if 3417 03:41:18.079 --> 03:41:23.399 you see an issue with an individual identifying with someone 3418 03:41:23.440 --> 03:41:27.399 that they're genetically related to as opposed and showing preference 3419 03:41:27.799 --> 03:41:31.280 for someone that they are genetically related to over somebody else. 3420 03:41:31.520 --> 03:41:33.520 And there's a there's an excerpt in that essay from 3421 03:41:33.520 --> 03:41:37.200 a New York Times piece that that Paul Bloom wrote 3422 03:41:37.239 --> 03:41:40.760 that again, like the way we started our conversation basically 3423 03:41:40.799 --> 03:41:45.239 gives away the whole game. He says, oh, jeez, I 3424 03:41:45.239 --> 03:41:49.520 can probably pull it's probably worth pulling up the exact quote. 3425 03:41:50.079 --> 03:41:52.319 If you'll just bear with me for like half a second. 3426 03:41:53.040 --> 03:41:59.600 Sure, here we go. 3427 03:42:03.520 --> 03:42:11.680 All right, I'm not going to waste your time. Basically, 3428 03:42:11.719 --> 03:42:16.479 he says, there are there are key differences in the 3429 03:42:16.520 --> 03:42:21.399 ways that infants develop morally, and the problem is not 3430 03:42:21.520 --> 03:42:25.840 that they have those tendencies, is that they differ from 3431 03:42:25.959 --> 03:42:29.680 how we would like them to be. So basically he's saying, 3432 03:42:29.719 --> 03:42:33.319 we need to social engineer kinship preference out of infants, 3433 03:42:33.520 --> 03:42:36.360 and if we can demonstrate that they show kinship preference 3434 03:42:36.399 --> 03:42:39.440 as early as two three months, then that's really as 3435 03:42:39.479 --> 03:42:42.920 early as the social engineering program ought to start. And 3436 03:42:42.959 --> 03:42:45.559 that was what my students were intrinsically picking up on 3437 03:42:45.680 --> 03:42:49.319 in the classroom. They were recognizing that if you are 3438 03:42:49.360 --> 03:42:55.959 treating this novel cognitive psychology experiment as a pretext for 3439 03:42:56.120 --> 03:43:01.319 a sort of rigorous disciplinary educational program. Almost none of 3440 03:43:01.319 --> 03:43:04.159 them ever said that, but the horror that they all 3441 03:43:04.239 --> 03:43:10.040 saw in treating an infant like like something you can 3442 03:43:10.159 --> 03:43:13.000 mold was written all over their face. And that's really 3443 03:43:13.040 --> 03:43:15.639 the big issue with Paul Blum's body of work, And 3444 03:43:15.680 --> 03:43:19.319 that's what I'm focusing on in that essay is that, Look, 3445 03:43:21.280 --> 03:43:24.719 it's an open question whether or not there's a utility 3446 03:43:24.799 --> 03:43:30.840 and a benefit to studying moral and social development and infants. 3447 03:43:31.879 --> 03:43:34.680 But if you're doing that with the express intention of 3448 03:43:34.719 --> 03:43:42.440 trying to effectively derail cognitive development infant cognitive development, then 3449 03:43:42.479 --> 03:43:47.000 there's really there's neither a moral nor even a scientific 3450 03:43:47.440 --> 03:43:52.639 justification for doing so. I chose Paul Bloom's essay because 3451 03:43:52.639 --> 03:43:54.959 it's actually or his book, because it's actually one of 3452 03:43:54.959 --> 03:43:56.719 the worst books I've ever read in my entire life. 3453 03:43:57.200 --> 03:44:02.520 From an academic, you know, ivy league educated researcher. There's 3454 03:44:02.520 --> 03:44:07.559 no citations, which, by the way, like that doesn't bust 3455 03:44:07.600 --> 03:44:10.040 my balls that there's no citations in it. But if 3456 03:44:10.040 --> 03:44:13.440 you're like an Ivy League person, you're a department chair 3457 03:44:13.440 --> 03:44:16.040 of universities, you're on sick like that's what you're supposed 3458 03:44:16.079 --> 03:44:19.399 to do. Like that's this just like the bare minimum, 3459 03:44:19.959 --> 03:44:23.440 and it's just non sequitor after non sequader after nonsequitur 3460 03:44:24.440 --> 03:44:26.760 and and it's it's it's almost again not to get 3461 03:44:26.799 --> 03:44:29.440 too naughty and anti semitic here, but like you're reading 3462 03:44:29.479 --> 03:44:32.760 that book of his is like getting into the mind 3463 03:44:32.840 --> 03:44:37.479 of a Jewish propagandist because he's just telling you he's 3464 03:44:37.559 --> 03:44:40.360 he's demonstrating to you why his own logic doesn't really 3465 03:44:40.399 --> 03:44:44.479 make sense. You're getting to see the weaknesses in their worldview. 3466 03:44:45.600 --> 03:44:48.799 And there's a few other things he cites in there 3467 03:44:48.840 --> 03:44:53.440 in terms of like anti racist race science that I 3468 03:44:53.440 --> 03:44:56.959 think probably your audience would really enjoy it. So that's yeah, 3469 03:44:57.120 --> 03:44:58.520 that's what's up with Paul Blue. 3470 03:45:00.200 --> 03:45:02.840 Yeah, it just it goes back to that. I mean, 3471 03:45:03.399 --> 03:45:05.600 at this point it's been attributed to so many people 3472 03:45:05.639 --> 03:45:09.680 as apocryphal that give me a child before they're two 3473 03:45:09.879 --> 03:45:12.799 three years old, and I'll I'll own their mind for 3474 03:45:12.840 --> 03:45:14.799 the rest of their lives. I'll mold their mind for 3475 03:45:14.840 --> 03:45:17.239 the rest of their lives. Yeah, I mean, that's that's 3476 03:45:17.280 --> 03:45:19.959 all I hear. And you know, and also what I 3477 03:45:20.040 --> 03:45:23.959 hear is I don't want this kid to grow up 3478 03:45:24.000 --> 03:45:27.319 to be baby Hitler, so we need to we need 3479 03:45:27.360 --> 03:45:29.799 to make sure of that. So please let me have 3480 03:45:29.920 --> 03:45:33.559 access to that mind so that it'll never think to 3481 03:45:34.399 --> 03:45:35.680 turn its gaze upon me. 3482 03:45:37.239 --> 03:45:43.360 There's in that book. I like it, really, I was thunderstruck. 3483 03:45:44.680 --> 03:45:49.440 They're peppered all throughout the book. His book is called 3484 03:45:49.879 --> 03:45:53.239 Just Babies Origins of Good and Evil, you know, a 3485 03:45:53.239 --> 03:45:55.719 little bit of a punny title, like they're just babies, 3486 03:45:55.719 --> 03:45:57.840 but also just in the sense of like justice and 3487 03:45:57.879 --> 03:46:03.079 all that kind of thing. Peppered all throughout the book 3488 03:46:03.520 --> 03:46:11.600 are mentions of basically like collective violence against other groups, 3489 03:46:12.079 --> 03:46:15.799 and like in the first two or three pages he 3490 03:46:15.920 --> 03:46:20.559 mentions the show and all with only there's one exception. 3491 03:46:20.639 --> 03:46:23.200 All throughout the book, all of his examples of like 3492 03:46:23.440 --> 03:46:29.159 evil racism, evil group conflict. It's always anti Jewish pogrim 3493 03:46:29.200 --> 03:46:31.479 stuff throughout the book, and like you just can't help 3494 03:46:31.520 --> 03:46:34.319 but read it and think, like there's an agenda here. 3495 03:46:34.360 --> 03:46:38.520 This actually isn't science, this isn't social theorizing. This is 3496 03:46:38.760 --> 03:46:42.200 just as I said in our last conversation, like this 3497 03:46:42.319 --> 03:46:45.840 is just like a racial polemic, like you are wearing 3498 03:46:46.079 --> 03:46:49.680 the And this is a concept I introduce in that essay. 3499 03:46:49.760 --> 03:46:51.719 It's not my own concept, but I've kind of put 3500 03:46:51.760 --> 03:46:55.360 my own flavor on it. Back in the sixties, you know, 3501 03:46:55.479 --> 03:46:58.440 there used to be this talk of ethnoscience as a 3502 03:46:58.440 --> 03:47:04.639 way to talk about like, you know, uh, some African 3503 03:47:04.799 --> 03:47:09.159 guy in the bushes, you know, doing like witchcraft, voodoo 3504 03:47:09.200 --> 03:47:11.680 and and and basically there was there was an attempt 3505 03:47:11.719 --> 03:47:16.239 to try to make you know, non industrial societies and 3506 03:47:16.280 --> 03:47:23.719 their rudimentary like knowledge power, make it on an equal 3507 03:47:23.760 --> 03:47:27.799 footing to you know, Western civilization. But I twist that 3508 03:47:27.920 --> 03:47:31.000 a little bit, and I say, Okay, let's accept the 3509 03:47:31.040 --> 03:47:34.799 premise that different groups practice the scientific method differently. That's 3510 03:47:34.840 --> 03:47:40.040 basically what this concept of ethnoscience is trying to say. Well, 3511 03:47:40.040 --> 03:47:43.959 when when people like Paul Bloom tried to do the 3512 03:47:44.000 --> 03:47:50.280 scientific method, it's actually not about like objectivity, empiricism, uh, 3513 03:47:50.840 --> 03:47:56.879 science knowledge, It's it's racial self defense. And that's particularly 3514 03:47:56.959 --> 03:48:02.360 egregious when you are making in defense the object of 3515 03:48:02.399 --> 03:48:03.840 your racial self defense. 3516 03:48:06.000 --> 03:48:08.399 Yeah, and I think if people pick up the pick 3517 03:48:08.479 --> 03:48:12.680 up the book and read the read the addendum, they'll 3518 03:48:12.719 --> 03:48:15.879 get that. They'll I think you wrap that up where 3519 03:48:16.159 --> 03:48:19.479 basically a lot of the writers that you're you know, 3520 03:48:19.520 --> 03:48:22.520 most of the writers that you're covering, that's what they're doing. 3521 03:48:22.959 --> 03:48:26.920 It's basically all of their work is in defense of 3522 03:48:27.040 --> 03:48:29.120 their own self interest. 3523 03:48:31.079 --> 03:48:32.920 Yeah, which is why I think is an important book. 3524 03:48:32.920 --> 03:48:35.600 I'm certainly not the first person to bark up this tree, 3525 03:48:35.959 --> 03:48:38.360 but I do think I did it pretty comprehensively, and 3526 03:48:38.399 --> 03:48:42.120 I tried to go after as many like central figures 3527 03:48:42.159 --> 03:48:44.559 as possible. Are there other people of the you know, 3528 03:48:44.600 --> 03:48:48.360 besides Daniel Konnoman who are worth interrogating. Yes, And I 3529 03:48:48.399 --> 03:48:51.719 hope that somebody reads this and thinks, well, I'll plug 3530 03:48:51.760 --> 03:48:55.559 that hole. I mean, this book is like very much 3531 03:48:55.639 --> 03:48:59.760 in the vein of like a Kevin McDonald type of writing. Right. So, 3532 03:48:59.840 --> 03:49:04.559 you know, I don't think I'm necessarily trailblazing, but I 3533 03:49:04.600 --> 03:49:08.959 do think, you know, with regard to Daniel Kahneman and 3534 03:49:09.079 --> 03:49:12.360 Jonathan Hyde, you know, these are two people who I think, 3535 03:49:13.399 --> 03:49:17.079 because of their recency, there's such a lack of skepticism 3536 03:49:17.559 --> 03:49:20.879 towards their work. It's easy to look you know, fifty years, 3537 03:49:20.879 --> 03:49:22.760 one hundred years in the past and say, oh, well, 3538 03:49:22.799 --> 03:49:26.360 Carl Popper kind of or Theodore Herzel or whoever kind 3539 03:49:26.360 --> 03:49:28.520 of like, you know, their shit's all fucked up part 3540 03:49:28.520 --> 03:49:31.520 of my language, Like it's obvious, but you're you know, 3541 03:49:31.799 --> 03:49:34.600 when it's in our lifetime and you're growing up and 3542 03:49:35.200 --> 03:49:38.079 maturing whatever, and you're seeing this work. You know, for 3543 03:49:38.120 --> 03:49:40.680 a whole bunch of reasons, people don't put their their 3544 03:49:40.719 --> 03:49:47.680 scrutinizing lenses on. And even in the right Jonathan Jonathan 3545 03:49:47.719 --> 03:49:54.280 Height's work is cited pretty much uncritically, and to me, 3546 03:49:54.559 --> 03:49:58.159 like his ideas have always been on their face wrong. 3547 03:50:00.120 --> 03:50:04.719 Same thing with Daniel Connoman, like the idea that evolution 3548 03:50:05.000 --> 03:50:08.360 over whatever thousands of years, millions of years, tens of 3549 03:50:08.360 --> 03:50:12.159 millions of years would create something like us that is 3550 03:50:12.200 --> 03:50:14.079 like a fifty to fifty coin flip in terms of 3551 03:50:14.280 --> 03:50:17.239 the shit going on between our ears, as it has 3552 03:50:17.280 --> 03:50:22.719 any positive utility, Like that's so obviously wrong. And the 3553 03:50:22.799 --> 03:50:29.799 thing that's so like to me kind of characteristic of 3554 03:50:29.840 --> 03:50:33.799 someone like a Daniel Connoman is that they develop all 3555 03:50:33.879 --> 03:50:40.120 this language, and they develop all these concepts that you 3556 03:50:40.280 --> 03:50:43.920 can't like test or apply in the real world or 3557 03:50:43.959 --> 03:50:52.120 that don't actually reduce confusion, but they actually create more confusion. 3558 03:50:52.319 --> 03:50:54.159 So like there's like one of the big concepts of 3559 03:50:54.239 --> 03:50:57.520 Daniel Connoman, and this is a tangent I apologize this. 3560 03:50:57.680 --> 03:51:00.840 He talks about the human consciousness basically being broken up 3561 03:51:00.920 --> 03:51:05.200 into two systems, system one and symptom system two. Hence 3562 03:51:05.200 --> 03:51:08.639 the title of his book thinking Fast and Slow. One 3563 03:51:08.719 --> 03:51:12.719 is faster, one is slower. One's more prejudicial, one is 3564 03:51:13.479 --> 03:51:18.159 more conservative and reserved. One is more rational, one is 3565 03:51:18.159 --> 03:51:22.559 more irrational. And then if you ask yourself, well, where 3566 03:51:22.680 --> 03:51:25.719 is System one in the brain or in the body, 3567 03:51:25.840 --> 03:51:29.559 or you can't point to it. It's not an actual 3568 03:51:29.719 --> 03:51:35.760 thing that corresponds to like a material or social reality chemisphere. 3569 03:51:35.959 --> 03:51:39.719 Is that one hemisphere versus another or something. 3570 03:51:38.079 --> 03:51:41.079 That right right? Even with Freud, and there's lots of 3571 03:51:41.120 --> 03:51:44.319 bad things you can say about Freud, but his tripartite 3572 03:51:44.319 --> 03:51:47.879 model of the mind more or less kind of corresponds 3573 03:51:47.920 --> 03:51:51.920 to the major areas of the brain prefrontal cortex, mid brain, 3574 03:51:52.000 --> 03:51:57.799 hind brain. There's a sort of analogical thing happening there. 3575 03:51:58.879 --> 03:52:01.280 But with kind of me, it's like I'm just making 3576 03:52:01.319 --> 03:52:05.520 it's it's literally word craft, it's just word wizardry. And 3577 03:52:05.520 --> 03:52:07.360 and then you know, the title of the book, Intolerant 3578 03:52:07.440 --> 03:52:12.959 Interpretations is a very specifically intended title, like you need 3579 03:52:13.000 --> 03:52:16.680 to hear those kinds of things and immediately disregard them. 3580 03:52:17.319 --> 03:52:20.840 Like part of the problem that a lot of us have, 3581 03:52:21.600 --> 03:52:25.879 for one reason or another is we're just uncritically accepting 3582 03:52:25.920 --> 03:52:29.920 what's happening. And you can actually be like a like 3583 03:52:29.959 --> 03:52:33.440 a jerk, like a disagreeable jerk from the outset and 3584 03:52:33.520 --> 03:52:37.479 be right about like the whole affair. And that's that's 3585 03:52:37.479 --> 03:52:39.479 what I'm That's what I'm encouraging people to do. I'm 3586 03:52:39.559 --> 03:52:43.799 encouraging people to be a disagreeable jerk to basically fight, 3587 03:52:44.280 --> 03:52:47.520 like like just don't accept the premise and and that 3588 03:52:47.520 --> 03:52:51.799 that that pertains to like our political activism, Like I 3589 03:52:51.840 --> 03:52:56.239 don't need to entertain the prospect that the United States 3590 03:52:56.239 --> 03:53:00.639 of America is a you know, giant job fair for 3591 03:53:00.719 --> 03:53:02.680 the whole rest of the world. I don't have to 3592 03:53:02.760 --> 03:53:07.079 accept the premise that our ancestors were bad people and 3593 03:53:07.200 --> 03:53:09.399 we need to be punished for it. I don't need 3594 03:53:09.440 --> 03:53:15.399 to accept that we should encourage people to forego family 3595 03:53:15.479 --> 03:53:21.399 formation so because reasons, because reasons that like on their 3596 03:53:21.399 --> 03:53:23.479 face don't even stand up to scrutiny anymore. 3597 03:53:25.440 --> 03:53:28.399 You know, one of the things that was mentioned is 3598 03:53:28.559 --> 03:53:33.000 just the myth of the individual you know, coming from 3599 03:53:33.040 --> 03:53:38.360 a libertarian background, the first thing somebody does when they 3600 03:53:38.399 --> 03:53:46.239 become a libertarian, which is the most individualistic ideology out 3601 03:53:46.319 --> 03:53:51.120 there political quote unquote political ideology out there, is they're like, oh, wow, 3602 03:53:51.239 --> 03:53:54.879 I'm an individual I need to find other people who 3603 03:53:54.920 --> 03:53:58.639 consider themselves to be individuals. There's a fucking political party 3604 03:53:58.680 --> 03:54:03.399 in this country of radical individuals. I mean, if that 3605 03:54:03.440 --> 03:54:08.639 doesn't tell you that that individuality and radical individualism is 3606 03:54:08.760 --> 03:54:12.120 just a myth that as soon as somebody finds, oh 3607 03:54:12.239 --> 03:54:15.479 I'm embracing this, but oh I want to hang out 3608 03:54:15.520 --> 03:54:19.879 with other people who who are radical individuals too. It's 3609 03:54:19.920 --> 03:54:22.879 like that doesn't make any sense. What are you talking about? 3610 03:54:23.200 --> 03:54:26.440 You know, and you know, people should you know, once 3611 03:54:26.479 --> 03:54:28.680 you start going down the rabbit hole of you know, 3612 03:54:30.120 --> 03:54:34.760 who preached libertarianism and where that came from, and you know, 3613 03:54:34.959 --> 03:54:38.840 maybe look at some of the names. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 3614 03:54:38.920 --> 03:54:42.399 may start seeing some similarities there too to what we're 3615 03:54:42.440 --> 03:54:43.959 talking about. 3616 03:54:44.559 --> 03:54:48.040 Yeah, which is again it's a fine line that we 3617 03:54:48.159 --> 03:54:51.760 have to walk because I correct me if I'm wrong. 3618 03:54:51.799 --> 03:54:56.639 I don't think you would flat out reject anything associated 3619 03:54:56.639 --> 03:55:00.440 with individuality, like we are our own people. I mean, 3620 03:55:01.239 --> 03:55:01.559 this is. 3621 03:55:01.479 --> 03:55:07.159 Why individual we're individuals within a group mmma, which is why. 3622 03:55:07.000 --> 03:55:09.799 I emphasize people like Gerd gigorinz Or in my book 3623 03:55:09.840 --> 03:55:12.399 as sort of an antidote to that. Yes, you are you, 3624 03:55:13.120 --> 03:55:17.440 Peter R. Cononas, and there is no other Peter R. Cononash, 3625 03:55:17.479 --> 03:55:22.120 and you are in critical ways very different from everyone 3626 03:55:22.159 --> 03:55:26.559 around you. But at the end of the day, we're 3627 03:55:26.600 --> 03:55:30.680 a collective. We're a sort of hive organism. We exist 3628 03:55:30.680 --> 03:55:34.159 in physical spaces in proximity to other people that we 3629 03:55:34.319 --> 03:55:38.719 all depend on, even in ways that we can't possibly fathom. 3630 03:55:38.719 --> 03:55:40.639 So that's those those are kind of the major take 3631 03:55:40.680 --> 03:55:41.840 homes of my book. 3632 03:55:42.639 --> 03:55:46.360 Yeah, all right, And remind everybody again where they can 3633 03:55:46.399 --> 03:55:46.799 find the. 3634 03:55:46.719 --> 03:55:52.000 Book Antelope Hill Publishing dot com. It's also on Amazon. 3635 03:55:53.280 --> 03:55:56.040 If you like the way this stuff sounds, you can 3636 03:55:56.079 --> 03:55:59.239 pick up my old books and Imperium Press. And I 3637 03:55:59.319 --> 03:56:03.440 maintain a blot janeel dot substack dot com where I 3638 03:56:03.559 --> 03:56:06.879 basically continue the same type of writing. So Pete, I 3639 03:56:06.920 --> 03:56:09.879 really appreciate it your total gentleman, and to your audience 3640 03:56:10.200 --> 03:56:10.959 by my book. 3641 03:56:11.799 --> 03:56:14.840 Yeah, and a reminder, you have five percent off of 3642 03:56:15.719 --> 03:56:17.760 if you go buy his books at Antelope Hill and 3643 03:56:17.840 --> 03:56:20.399 any other of the great books at Antelope Hill if 3644 03:56:20.440 --> 03:56:23.680 you use code PEQ all one word at checkout. I 3645 03:56:23.760 --> 03:56:28.040 cover shipping most of the time. So yeah, I've My 3646 03:56:29.239 --> 03:56:31.360 library is on the other side of the room, and 3647 03:56:32.239 --> 03:56:34.639 if I were to start pulling out the amount of 3648 03:56:34.680 --> 03:56:38.520 books from Antelope Hill, it'd be quite the pile. So 3649 03:56:39.040 --> 03:56:41.760 head on over there. Thank you, Josh, really appreciate it. 3650 03:56:42.799 --> 03:56:45.280 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekinana Show. 3651 03:56:45.600 --> 03:56:47.719 Josh Neil is back. Josh, how you doing. 3652 03:56:49.239 --> 03:56:54.559 I am nasally congested, and that makes me very much 3653 03:56:54.680 --> 03:57:00.000 like the the gentleman we're about to talk about today, 3654 03:56:59.479 --> 03:57:02.239 So I'm feeling sympatico with the subject matter. 3655 03:57:04.000 --> 03:57:06.120 Okay, so we're going to talk about Freud here. We're 3656 03:57:06.120 --> 03:57:08.520 going to talk specifically, we're going to read an article 3657 03:57:08.559 --> 03:57:12.840 that Lorraine Gignol wrote back in twenty nineteen and included 3658 03:57:12.879 --> 03:57:17.399 in one of his books. So, if we're talking about Freud, 3659 03:57:18.760 --> 03:57:24.520 is there anything that gives you like, have you ever 3660 03:57:24.600 --> 03:57:28.159 been what's your credibility to be able to talk about Freud? 3661 03:57:30.280 --> 03:57:34.280 Well, the graduate school I went to was a heavily 3662 03:57:34.360 --> 03:57:39.000 psychodynamic psychoanalytic program. Most of the people, most of the 3663 03:57:39.399 --> 03:57:46.000 faculty in the psychology the grad program had had that background, 3664 03:57:46.079 --> 03:57:48.879 and so that was most of I mean, most of 3665 03:57:48.920 --> 03:57:54.239 the classes I took to were from a Freudian perspective. 3666 03:57:54.520 --> 03:58:01.479 I'm not a Freudian myself, and most of my career, 3667 03:58:01.639 --> 03:58:04.760 if you want to call it that, what I took 3668 03:58:04.799 --> 03:58:10.600 from Freud was sort of like a a contrarian point 3669 03:58:10.639 --> 03:58:14.559 of view, which is to say, there's a there's a 3670 03:58:14.559 --> 03:58:17.319 couple of like to the extent that people know about Freud, 3671 03:58:17.360 --> 03:58:19.280 they tend to land on a couple on one of 3672 03:58:19.319 --> 03:58:25.120 a few perspectives. One conventional perspective is that, well, he 3673 03:58:25.239 --> 03:58:27.799 wasn't doing real science, so all of it is junk 3674 03:58:29.479 --> 03:58:32.639 if you're in this milieu. One perspective as well, he 3675 03:58:32.879 --> 03:58:39.319 was Jewish, so it's all junk. Or if you're like 3676 03:58:39.360 --> 03:58:43.879 sort of like a like a left winger, then he's 3677 03:58:43.920 --> 03:58:48.120 sort of unimpeachable in a lot of ways. I fall 3678 03:58:48.239 --> 03:58:50.360 somewhere in the middle. I think his work is very 3679 03:58:50.399 --> 03:58:54.959 instructive as an insight into the Jewish not just the 3680 03:58:55.040 --> 03:58:59.360 Jewish mind, but like Jewish communal living, because as we're 3681 03:58:59.360 --> 03:59:02.639 going to see with this essay, most of his work. 3682 03:59:02.879 --> 03:59:08.399 You could say his work is heavily autobiographical. The concept 3683 03:59:08.479 --> 03:59:13.959 he develops are a direct result of his own experience, 3684 03:59:14.760 --> 03:59:19.719 and he prefigured, he prefigured like the sort of modern 3685 03:59:19.760 --> 03:59:24.120 preoccupation with with like trauma, which is unfortunate because I 3686 03:59:24.159 --> 03:59:28.920 think it was it was, it's an it's now like 3687 03:59:28.959 --> 03:59:34.520 sort of a trite observation to make that a large 3688 03:59:34.520 --> 03:59:38.639 amount of psychological dysfunction, even social dysfunction, is due to 3689 03:59:38.799 --> 03:59:44.239 disruption of of the home, the domestic circumstance early in 3690 03:59:44.280 --> 03:59:47.840 a child's life. Whether we're talking about like homosexuality or 3691 03:59:47.879 --> 03:59:53.000 you know, aberrant sexualities in general, they're just statistically, they're 3692 03:59:53.040 --> 03:59:57.120 they're the result of dysfunction in the home life early 3693 03:59:57.159 --> 04:00:00.799 on in the kid's life. I also think he's interesting 3694 04:00:00.920 --> 04:00:03.639 just for his like sort of anthropological work, which also 3695 04:00:04.280 --> 04:00:07.520 kind of you have to take him into view what 3696 04:00:07.520 --> 04:00:10.959 what Lourentz argues in this book to kind of understand 3697 04:00:11.000 --> 04:00:16.680 his anthropological work. His his whole idea of like the 3698 04:00:16.680 --> 04:00:20.479 the son's ganging up to kill the father, takes a 3699 04:00:20.520 --> 04:00:25.520 different tone when you consider his own personal autobiography and 3700 04:00:25.520 --> 04:00:29.920 and and what his work was about but also like 3701 04:00:29.959 --> 04:00:32.959 some of his anthropological work, like his book From Moses 3702 04:00:32.959 --> 04:00:36.639 to Monotheism. You know, he's treated as a subversive, especially 3703 04:00:36.799 --> 04:00:42.239 people who get into stuff his his relatives were up to, 3704 04:00:42.280 --> 04:00:46.639 like Edward Burnet's and they there's maybe you could say 3705 04:00:46.680 --> 04:00:50.600 he was an equal opportunity subversive because he undermined the 3706 04:00:50.680 --> 04:00:55.879 Jewish claim to being the first monotheistic people. So I 3707 04:00:55.879 --> 04:01:00.719 think he was an interesting He had an introst in career. 3708 04:01:01.639 --> 04:01:05.799 But what's more interesting is the stuff beneath the surface, 3709 04:01:05.799 --> 04:01:09.520 which we're obviously going to get into today. 3710 04:01:09.600 --> 04:01:11.959 All right, So I'm going to start reading stop Me 3711 04:01:12.000 --> 04:01:18.079 at any time. Don't just stop me. Don't be you know, 3712 04:01:18.120 --> 04:01:20.760 don't hesitate to stop me. It's not I'm not going 3713 04:01:20.799 --> 04:01:25.360 to be insulted or anything like that. And yeah, so 3714 04:01:25.520 --> 04:01:28.959 this is the title of it. The chapter in the 3715 04:01:29.000 --> 04:01:31.600 book that this is included in is different, but the 3716 04:01:31.639 --> 04:01:33.399 title when he wrote it and it was put on 3717 04:01:33.520 --> 04:01:36.879 uns review was Freud's Sexual Abuse in Bena Breath. So 3718 04:01:37.319 --> 04:01:41.239 I'll start reading stop Me whenever. In the last few years, 3719 04:01:41.280 --> 04:01:45.399 there I've been lots of news reports, documentary films, and 3720 04:01:45.639 --> 04:01:49.239 articles about sexual abuse of children in Orthodox Jewish communities 3721 04:01:49.879 --> 04:01:53.319 in March twenty seventeen, for instance, Haretz reported that the 3722 04:01:53.360 --> 04:01:56.639 Israeli police arrested twenty two ultra Orthodox Jews for sex 3723 04:01:56.719 --> 04:01:59.920 crimes against miners and women, and in July twenty nineteen, 3724 04:02:00.120 --> 04:02:03.399 Times of Israel reported that the Deputy Health Minister Jakov 3725 04:02:03.520 --> 04:02:08.319 Litzmann was alleged to have improperly intervened to aid at 3726 04:02:08.399 --> 04:02:13.600 least ten sex offenders from Israel's ultra Orthodox community. In 3727 04:02:13.639 --> 04:02:17.639 twenty fifteen, Jewish attorney Michael Lescher wrote Sex Abuse Shanda 3728 04:02:17.719 --> 04:02:23.959 and Concealment in Orthodox Jewish Communities to document, quoting the 3729 04:02:24.000 --> 04:02:26.879 dismal history of how far too many of those cases 3730 04:02:26.920 --> 04:02:29.959 have been assiduously concealed, both from the public and from 3731 04:02:29.959 --> 04:02:33.760 the police. How influential rabbis and community leaders have sided 3732 04:02:33.760 --> 04:02:36.959 with the alleged abusers against their victims. How victims and 3733 04:02:37.000 --> 04:02:41.079 witnesses of sexual abuse have been pressured even threatened, not 3734 04:02:41.239 --> 04:02:44.479 to turn to secular law enforcement for help. How autonomous 3735 04:02:44.559 --> 04:02:48.120 Jewish patrols, displacing the role of official police in some 3736 04:02:48.280 --> 04:02:52.479 large and heavily religious Jewish neighborhoods, have played an inglorious 3737 04:02:52.520 --> 04:02:55.319 part in the history of cover ups. How some Jewish 3738 04:02:55.319 --> 04:02:59.079 communities have even succeeded in manipulating law enforcement officials to 3739 04:02:59.159 --> 04:03:04.799 protect suspects did abusers. This reminds me of the story 3740 04:03:04.799 --> 04:03:07.719 of how Freud, having stumbled upon the widespread reality of 3741 04:03:07.840 --> 04:03:12.000 child abuse among his mostly Jewish clientsele, covered it up 3742 04:03:12.000 --> 04:03:14.920 with the theory that all little girls desire their father's 3743 04:03:15.000 --> 04:03:18.639 penises and all little boys dream of screwing their mothers, 3744 04:03:19.239 --> 04:03:22.200 and named his theory after a gentile myth. 3745 04:03:24.639 --> 04:03:33.639 Well just to well, just just the bit about how 3746 04:03:34.040 --> 04:03:39.760 the Jewish community will aggressively not even self police, but 3747 04:03:39.760 --> 04:03:46.680 but more of like do run interference between themselves and 3748 04:03:46.719 --> 04:03:49.479 the larger community. There was an there was an article 3749 04:03:49.760 --> 04:03:53.040 like ten years ago in the New York Times that 3750 04:03:53.200 --> 04:03:59.159 was talking about the tendency for the rabbinical Orthodox Jews 3751 04:04:00.079 --> 04:04:05.559 to ostracize members of their community if they brought stories 3752 04:04:05.600 --> 04:04:10.200 of sexual abuse to the broader, gentile public. So I 3753 04:04:10.239 --> 04:04:14.159 wish I could pull that up. I just there's I 3754 04:04:14.159 --> 04:04:17.000 don't know, I'm not finding it now, but yeah, it's 3755 04:04:17.040 --> 04:04:23.840 just it's remarkable. I hesitate to say exactly that that 3756 04:04:24.239 --> 04:04:29.079 sexual abuse or sexual violence is like sort of intrinsic 3757 04:04:29.159 --> 04:04:34.479 to the Jewish social milieu, but it's hard to argue otherwise. 3758 04:04:36.680 --> 04:04:42.159 All right. Two Freud's assault on truth the story has 3759 04:04:42.200 --> 04:04:45.840 been told by Jeffrey Massan, and the Assault on Truth 3760 04:04:46.360 --> 04:04:50.360 Freud's suppression of the seduction theory. In eighteen ninety five 3761 04:04:50.360 --> 04:04:53.319 and eighteen ninety six, Freud, listening to his neurotic and 3762 04:04:53.360 --> 04:04:57.040 hysterical patients, became convinced that most of them had suffered 3763 04:04:57.079 --> 04:05:01.639 from traumatic sexual abuse in their childhood. The traumatic origin 3764 04:05:01.680 --> 04:05:05.680 of hysteria and overused diagnosis in these days had already 3765 04:05:05.680 --> 04:05:10.760 been discussed by neurologists, including Jean Martin Charcaut, whose conferences 3766 04:05:10.799 --> 04:05:15.040 Freud had attended in Paris, and Hermann Oppenheim, who published 3767 04:05:15.040 --> 04:05:18.159 in Berlin in eighteen eighty nine a treatise on traumatic 3768 04:05:18.239 --> 04:05:25.559 neurosis Neuroses, Yet psychological traumas of sexual nature were rarely 3769 04:05:25.600 --> 04:05:29.799 discussed openly. On the other hand, there were medical publications 3770 04:05:29.840 --> 04:05:33.120 known to Freud documenting the frequency of violence on children, 3771 04:05:33.159 --> 04:05:37.120 including sexual assaults, but they focused on the physical consequences. 3772 04:05:38.879 --> 04:05:41.799 In April eighteen ninety six, confident to have made a 3773 04:05:41.840 --> 04:05:45.319 major breakthrough in psychiatry, Freud presented his findings to the 3774 04:05:45.360 --> 04:05:49.879 Society for Psychiatry and Neurology in Vienna, his first major 3775 04:05:49.920 --> 04:05:54.760 public address to his peers. His lecture met with total silence. 3776 04:05:55.319 --> 04:05:59.799 According to Masan, Freud was urged never to publish it 3777 04:06:00.200 --> 04:06:05.799 lest his reputation be damaged beyond repair. He found himself isolated, 3778 04:06:05.799 --> 04:06:12.319 but nevertheless published his paper The Ideology of Hysteria. Are 3779 04:06:12.399 --> 04:06:15.440 you familiar with that term? 3780 04:06:16.200 --> 04:06:20.200 Actually, I'm not. I think it's just an orthodo orthodox 3781 04:06:22.280 --> 04:06:26.680 pronunciation of ideology, just to say the origin of hysteria. 3782 04:06:29.760 --> 04:06:32.879 Freud's conclusions are drawn from eighteen case studies, six men 3783 04:06:32.920 --> 04:06:35.399 and twelve women, all of which he claims bear his 3784 04:06:35.559 --> 04:06:40.559 general thesis. This is quoting. I therefore put forward the 3785 04:06:40.559 --> 04:06:42.920 thesis that at the bottom of every case of hysteria 3786 04:06:42.959 --> 04:06:46.760 there are one or more occurrences of premature sexual experience, 3787 04:06:47.319 --> 04:06:50.239 occurrences which belong to the earliest years of childhood, but 3788 04:06:50.280 --> 04:06:53.520 which can be reproduced through the work of psychoanalysis in 3789 04:06:53.559 --> 04:06:56.440 spite of the intervening decades. I believe that this is 3790 04:06:56.479 --> 04:07:04.239 an important finding. The discovery of a caputnilli kaputneli in neuropathology. 3791 04:07:04.760 --> 04:07:08.479 Sexual experiences in childhood consisting in stimulation of the genitals, 3792 04:07:08.559 --> 04:07:12.319 coitus like acts and so on, must therefore be recognized 3793 04:07:12.360 --> 04:07:14.959 in the last analysis as being the traumas which lead 3794 04:07:15.000 --> 04:07:18.200 to a hysterical reaction to events at puberty and to 3795 04:07:18.239 --> 04:07:22.120 the development of hysterical symptoms. Yeah. 3796 04:07:22.239 --> 04:07:26.959 Just that's the UK spelling of ideology, and that phrase 3797 04:07:27.000 --> 04:07:32.520 couput neeli is also just saying the origin of neuropathology, okay. 3798 04:07:33.799 --> 04:07:36.959 Freud suggests that this conclusion applies not only to hysteria 3799 04:07:37.000 --> 04:07:40.760 but to most neuroses. Among other remarks, he suggests that 3800 04:07:40.879 --> 04:07:45.000 children who aggress sexually other children do so as a 3801 04:07:45.040 --> 04:07:49.440 result of having been sexually abused themselves. Quote. Children cannot 3802 04:07:49.440 --> 04:07:52.600 find their way to acts of sexual aggression unless they 3803 04:07:52.600 --> 04:07:58.799 have been seduced previously. However, one year after this article, 3804 04:07:59.000 --> 04:08:01.440 Freud decided that he had made a mistake in believing 3805 04:08:01.479 --> 04:08:06.399 his patients. He determined that what he was taken at, 3806 04:08:06.600 --> 04:08:09.639 what he had taken as repressed memories of sexual abuse, 3807 04:08:10.239 --> 04:08:14.239 were in fact fantasies. For the rest of his life 3808 04:08:14.280 --> 04:08:16.799 he would keep telling how he overcame his era and 3809 04:08:16.879 --> 04:08:20.479 discovered that these fantasies were intended to cover up the 3810 04:08:20.520 --> 04:08:24.200 auto erotic activity of the first years of childhood, to 3811 04:08:24.319 --> 04:08:27.360 embellish it and raise it to a higher plane. And 3812 04:08:27.440 --> 04:08:30.159 now from behind the fantasies, the whole range of a 3813 04:08:30.280 --> 04:08:33.719 child's sexual light came to light. The This is from 3814 04:08:33.760 --> 04:08:36.399 the history of the psychoanalytic movement in nineteen nineteen. 3815 04:08:37.319 --> 04:08:39.680 Yeah, and just to clarify, I mean, there's a lot 3816 04:08:39.680 --> 04:08:45.760 of sort of unorthodox language and spelling of common terms 3817 04:08:45.879 --> 04:08:49.840 in the English language, like fantasy with a pH is 3818 04:08:49.879 --> 04:08:54.600 not meant to be synonymous with fantasy with an F. 3819 04:08:54.600 --> 04:08:59.559 Fantasy with the pH is And this was something that 3820 04:09:00.079 --> 04:09:04.520 other psychoanalysts picked up later, like Melani Kleine. But it's 3821 04:09:04.600 --> 04:09:13.079 basically a sort of mental representation of the the wishes 3822 04:09:13.120 --> 04:09:16.879 and desires of the individual. So it's it's not quite 3823 04:09:20.840 --> 04:09:23.000 it's not a fantasy with an F. It's a fantasy 3824 04:09:23.000 --> 04:09:26.319 with a pH. It's it's connected to sort of unconscious 3825 04:09:26.319 --> 04:09:30.079 mental processes in the way that they they generate this, 3826 04:09:31.920 --> 04:09:36.120 they generate wish fulfillments. That's tied to Freud's idea of 3827 04:09:36.120 --> 04:09:40.920 the wish fulfillment but also frustrated wishes. So that's just 3828 04:09:41.079 --> 04:09:43.559 generally what the pH is supposed to denote. 3829 04:09:45.319 --> 04:09:48.719 From the standpoint of Freud's earlier theory, which he euphemistically 3830 04:09:48.760 --> 04:09:52.719 called the seduction theory, his new theory of spontaneous infantile 3831 04:09:52.799 --> 04:09:56.360 sexual fantasies can be seen as a projection. Not unlike 3832 04:09:56.440 --> 04:10:01.000 sex offenders tendency to blame their victims, theations themselves are 3833 04:10:01.040 --> 04:10:05.040 now accused of both sexual passion and murderous fantasies towards 3834 04:10:05.079 --> 04:10:11.479 their parents. By repressing these self generated impulses, says Freudian orthodoxy, 3835 04:10:11.760 --> 04:10:15.079 they have created their own neuroses, which may, in hysterics, 3836 04:10:15.360 --> 04:10:21.479 take the form of false memories of abuse. Thirty five 3837 04:10:21.559 --> 04:10:25.239 years later, Freud's most gifted disciple, once president of the 3838 04:10:25.280 --> 04:10:29.719 International Psychoanalytic Association, stumbled on the same realization that Freud 3839 04:10:29.719 --> 04:10:35.680 had shared in the Ideology of Hysteria. Sandor Freji wrote 3840 04:10:35.680 --> 04:10:38.040 in his diary in July nineteen thirty two that the 3841 04:10:38.079 --> 04:10:41.399 Oedipus complex could well be the result of real acts 3842 04:10:41.440 --> 04:10:45.360 on the part of adults, namely violent passions directed toward 3843 04:10:45.440 --> 04:10:49.319 the children, who then develop a fixation not from desire, 3844 04:10:49.440 --> 04:10:53.920 as Freud maintained, but from fear my mother and father 3845 04:10:54.000 --> 04:10:57.280 will kill me if I don't love them and identify 3846 04:10:57.319 --> 04:11:03.399 with their wishes. Becoming his apprehension of Freud's reaction, Florenci 3847 04:11:04.000 --> 04:11:08.239 dared present his conclusions before the twelfth International Psychoanalytic Conference 3848 04:11:08.239 --> 04:11:12.239 of Congress in electrotitled Confusion of Tongues between the Adults 3849 04:11:12.239 --> 04:11:15.920 and the Children. His paper contains a number of important 3850 04:11:15.959 --> 04:11:19.760 ideas confirmed by later research, such as the victim's psychological 3851 04:11:19.879 --> 04:11:25.319 identification with the aggressor or introjection. The aggressor disappears as 3852 04:11:25.360 --> 04:11:30.879 external reality and becomes intrapsychic instead of extra psychic, so 3853 04:11:30.959 --> 04:11:34.079 that even the guilt feelings of the aggressor are introjected. 3854 04:11:34.760 --> 04:11:40.319 Farensi hypothesized that helplessness caused the victim to empathize with 3855 04:11:40.360 --> 04:11:44.120 the aggressor, a process today known as Stockholm syndrome. 3856 04:11:45.440 --> 04:11:48.719 Yeah, I mean, that's what interjection basically refers to. It's 3857 04:11:48.799 --> 04:11:55.319 the internalizing, making a mental model of some authority, the 3858 04:11:55.440 --> 04:12:01.280 internalizing of the characteristics or habits or mentalities of some authority. Figure. 3859 04:12:02.959 --> 04:12:07.680 Now that takes a very different context, you know, the 3860 04:12:07.680 --> 04:12:13.079 difference between like internalizing a teacher or a school master, 3861 04:12:13.360 --> 04:12:16.040 or a parent or an older sibling, as opposed to 3862 04:12:16.799 --> 04:12:23.159 internalizing the attitudes and dispositions of an abusive of an abuser. 3863 04:12:24.360 --> 04:12:26.920 I mean that also there's a lot of Freudian concepts, 3864 04:12:27.040 --> 04:12:29.639 not to like get way ahead of where we're at already. 3865 04:12:29.840 --> 04:12:33.319 But there's a lot of Freudian concepts that take on 3866 04:12:33.360 --> 04:12:38.079 a different character if you view them as being sort 3867 04:12:38.120 --> 04:12:45.120 of compensatory responses to extreme trauma, extreme sexual violence, Like 3868 04:12:45.239 --> 04:12:50.959 repetition compulsion is another example. Repetition compulsion, in like the 3869 04:12:51.159 --> 04:12:56.680 orthodox Freudian worldview, is the tendency of an individual to 3870 04:12:56.760 --> 04:13:03.040 repeat some action, usually aunctional action, until they gain mastery 3871 04:13:03.079 --> 04:13:07.600 over it and then can integrate that aspect of themselves 3872 04:13:07.840 --> 04:13:13.120 into the larger psychological world. But when you think about 3873 04:13:13.559 --> 04:13:19.079 the habit or the tendency of like sex abuse victims 3874 04:13:19.159 --> 04:13:26.399 to engage in repetitive sexual dysfunction, to like volunteer themselves 3875 04:13:26.399 --> 04:13:32.600 into pornography or prostitution, or go from one one disastrous 3876 04:13:33.600 --> 04:13:39.360 sexually violent situation to another disastrous sexually violent situation. It 3877 04:13:40.920 --> 04:13:45.040 they never get to a point of mastery, and it's 3878 04:13:45.040 --> 04:13:49.920 sort of like dispels the whole idea of the of 3879 04:13:49.959 --> 04:13:54.040 the like the claim, the cleaned up interpretation of what 3880 04:13:54.079 --> 04:13:57.600 that is supposed to express. It makes more sense in 3881 04:13:57.639 --> 04:14:00.360 the context of as we're going to see a little 3882 04:14:00.360 --> 04:14:05.399 bit later on, that individual has a split internally and 3883 04:14:05.440 --> 04:14:09.680 they don't have the only frame of reference they have 3884 04:14:09.879 --> 04:14:17.239 is this violent, chaotic, traumatic aggressor personality. 3885 04:14:17.760 --> 04:14:22.239 Extreme adversity, especially fear of death, may also trigger a 3886 04:14:22.280 --> 04:14:26.719 premature development, for which Farenci uses the metaphor of a 3887 04:14:26.760 --> 04:14:30.280 fruit that ripens or becomes sweet prematurely when injured by 3888 04:14:30.319 --> 04:14:33.000 the beak of a bird, or of the premature ripening 3889 04:14:33.000 --> 04:14:35.719 of a wormy fruit. Shock can cause a part of 3890 04:14:35.760 --> 04:14:39.479 the person to mature suddenly, not only emotionally, but intellectually 3891 04:14:39.520 --> 04:14:44.280 as well. Such traumatic maturation happens at the expense of 3892 04:14:44.879 --> 04:14:49.799 psychological integration, and Ferensi brings in the notion of a 3893 04:14:49.799 --> 04:14:53.360 personality split quote there can be no shock, no fright 3894 04:14:53.479 --> 04:14:57.360 without traces of a personality split. In his personal diary, 3895 04:14:57.440 --> 04:15:00.440 reflecting on a patient who cannot remember having been raped 3896 04:15:00.680 --> 04:15:04.280 but dreams of it ceaselessly French, he writes, I know 3897 04:15:04.399 --> 04:15:08.200 from other analyzes that a part of our being can die, 3898 04:15:08.360 --> 04:15:11.000 and while the remaining part of our self may survive 3899 04:15:11.079 --> 04:15:14.799 the trauma, it awakens with a gap in its memory. Actually, 3900 04:15:14.840 --> 04:15:17.319 it is a gap in the personality because not only 3901 04:15:17.399 --> 04:15:19.799 as the memory of the struggle to the death effaced, 3902 04:15:20.120 --> 04:15:26.200 but all other associations associatively linked memories disappear, perhaps forever. 3903 04:15:28.879 --> 04:15:31.559 The observation is consistent with the findings of French medical 3904 04:15:31.600 --> 04:15:35.840 doctor and psychologist Pierre Janet, whose work has long been 3905 04:15:35.879 --> 04:15:39.760 overshadowed by Freudian psychology but has generated increased interest. In 3906 04:15:39.920 --> 04:15:45.360 the nineteen eighties, Janet theorized the first model of disassociative 3907 04:15:45.399 --> 04:15:49.920 identity disorders, now included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 3908 04:15:49.959 --> 04:15:57.879 of Mental Disorders. In Les Nevrosis, Janet wrote, justice, synthesis, 3909 04:15:57.879 --> 04:16:02.360 and association are the great characterists of all normal psychological operations, 3910 04:16:02.520 --> 04:16:05.920 so disassociation is the essential characteristic of all diseases of 3911 04:16:05.920 --> 04:16:10.239 the mind. Disassociation accounts for the evolution of traumatic memories 3912 04:16:10.239 --> 04:16:15.719 composed of psychological, sensory, effective, and cognitive experiences, which Shanez 3913 04:16:15.840 --> 04:16:22.120 calls ide fise. These fragmented aspects of the experience do 3914 04:16:22.239 --> 04:16:25.000 not allow a real memory to integrate the biography of 3915 04:16:25.040 --> 04:16:28.680 the subject, and instead develop into separate psychic entities which 3916 04:16:28.719 --> 04:16:33.479 nevertheless interfere with the main personality. In the most severe cases, 3917 04:16:33.520 --> 04:16:40.840 it can develop into schizophrenia or multiple personalities. Parensi's lecture 3918 04:16:40.959 --> 04:16:43.760 Confusion of Tongues met with the same disapproval from members 3919 04:16:43.799 --> 04:16:49.079 of the Psychoanalytic Association of Freud's ideology of hysteria had 3920 04:16:49.120 --> 04:16:53.360 met with the Viennese psychiatrists. Farensi was ostracized by Freud 3921 04:16:53.360 --> 04:16:56.159 and his secretarian disciples, and his paper was never translated 3922 04:16:56.200 --> 04:17:01.159 into English for the International Journal of Psychoanalysis, as was customary. 3923 04:17:01.559 --> 04:17:08.319 He died a few years later a broken man. Section three, 3924 04:17:08.479 --> 04:17:12.680 The Hidden Fault of the Father. This story raises two questions. First, 3925 04:17:12.920 --> 04:17:15.120 what is it that made Freud change his mind in 3926 04:17:15.120 --> 04:17:17.920 the first place and made him shun ferencies work thirty 3927 04:17:18.000 --> 04:17:21.479 years later? Secondly, and more importantly, why was Freud's theory 3928 04:17:21.559 --> 04:17:25.559 so successful despite being long proven scientifically flawed and its 3929 04:17:25.639 --> 04:17:30.840 therapeutic value baseless. On the first question, Massan shares his 3930 04:17:30.920 --> 04:17:33.639 conviction that what Freud had uncovered in eighteen ninety six 3931 04:17:33.719 --> 04:17:36.920 that in many instances children are the victims of sexual 3932 04:17:37.399 --> 04:17:41.680 violence and abuse within their families, becomes such a liability 3933 04:17:41.680 --> 04:17:44.399 that he literally had to banish it from his consciousness. 3934 04:17:45.159 --> 04:17:48.040 This theory has been challenged, and Massan has been criticized 3935 04:17:48.040 --> 04:17:52.319 for exaggerating the negative reactions to Freud's seduction theory. All 3936 04:17:52.360 --> 04:17:54.559 that can be said with confidence is that his paper 3937 04:17:54.639 --> 04:17:57.600 didn't bring him the instant fame he expected. 3938 04:18:00.120 --> 04:18:02.600 That's actually that's the first time I actually ever heard that. 3939 04:18:04.280 --> 04:18:07.200 I thought the only story I'd ever heard was that 3940 04:18:07.239 --> 04:18:10.840 he had presented this idea of sexual violence as the 3941 04:18:10.959 --> 04:18:16.600 precursor of psychological dysfunction, and that he was basically threatened 3942 04:18:16.639 --> 04:18:22.120 with losing his career for proposing something that was so 3943 04:18:23.440 --> 04:18:28.879 shocking to the senses of bourgeois European society. I guess 3944 04:18:28.920 --> 04:18:31.360 I would have to see, you know, I tried to 3945 04:18:31.399 --> 04:18:33.280 click that link there. I think that's a dead link. 3946 04:18:33.879 --> 04:18:36.280 So I don't know if you can actually find the 3947 04:18:36.319 --> 04:18:41.000 source that he's claiming, but it would be interesting to 3948 04:18:41.879 --> 04:18:48.840 find other accounts. Certainly, if he self censored out of 3949 04:18:48.879 --> 04:18:56.520 a sort of inability to leap frog his career, that 3950 04:18:56.559 --> 04:19:01.479 would be a lot more damning than simply he thought 3951 04:19:01.479 --> 04:19:03.399 that he was going to be shut out of the 3952 04:19:03.479 --> 04:19:08.040 discipline and out of you know, the academic system for 3953 04:19:08.159 --> 04:19:14.040 proposing something that was so like barbaric and shocking. That again, 3954 04:19:14.079 --> 04:19:16.719 that would also put a very different spin on because 3955 04:19:16.760 --> 04:19:19.959 Freud also the thing that's like you would not really 3956 04:19:20.040 --> 04:19:24.680 get this from just reading the Freudian ouvoir, so to speak. 3957 04:19:26.159 --> 04:19:32.600 He was intensely self conscious about his work. He was 3958 04:19:32.680 --> 04:19:38.559 intensely self conscious about the sort of the psychoanalysis as 3959 04:19:38.760 --> 04:19:44.959 a sort of universal system of interpretation, Like that was 3960 04:19:45.000 --> 04:19:48.879 one of his grand or ambitions. Was not just that 3961 04:19:48.920 --> 04:19:52.959 it would be a therapeutic intervention or you know, his 3962 04:19:53.040 --> 04:19:57.680 ambition wasn't just that he was advancing a science of 3963 04:19:58.040 --> 04:20:03.360 the human nervous system. He later again I invoked, like 3964 04:20:03.399 --> 04:20:06.879 from from Moses to Monotheism, he invoked his own system 3965 04:20:06.920 --> 04:20:09.360 as a as a as a as a medium for 3966 04:20:09.760 --> 04:20:15.559 literary criticism, for historical analysis, for sociology. So he thought 3967 04:20:15.719 --> 04:20:18.719 it was a way, a revolutionary way to look at everything, 3968 04:20:18.799 --> 04:20:22.000 not just the human psyche and not just medicine. So 3969 04:20:22.559 --> 04:20:24.840 on the one hand, he does have this reputation is 3970 04:20:24.920 --> 04:20:31.079 like an intentionally self conscious, sort of career minded person. 3971 04:20:31.479 --> 04:20:37.760 Even his even his relationship with Carl Jung, it was 3972 04:20:37.879 --> 04:20:42.440 to an extent a sort of opportunistic way to present 3973 04:20:43.040 --> 04:20:47.239 his ideas to gentile society by having them come through 3974 04:20:47.440 --> 04:20:52.159 the mouth of a gentile speaker. So I guess maybe 3975 04:20:52.159 --> 04:20:56.120 it's not a stretch to to argue that that he 3976 04:20:56.280 --> 04:20:59.600 self censored out of a frustration with the lack of 3977 04:21:00.079 --> 04:21:06.000 positive reception, but the common explanation going all the way 3978 04:21:06.000 --> 04:21:08.799 back to Stefan Malianews. Stefan Maliannu did a video about this, 3979 04:21:08.920 --> 04:21:12.520 like ten or fifteen years ago, that the reason he 3980 04:21:12.680 --> 04:21:17.000 pivoted from the seduction theory to this sort of if 3981 04:21:17.040 --> 04:21:21.040 you want to say, victim blaming account of mental illness, 3982 04:21:21.520 --> 04:21:25.520 was basically because he had been threatened by his peers 3983 04:21:26.120 --> 04:21:28.719 in the in the discipline. So I guess that's up 3984 04:21:28.760 --> 04:21:29.159 for debate. 3985 04:21:32.879 --> 04:21:36.079 Masson takes other factors into account. He believes that Freud 3986 04:21:36.200 --> 04:21:40.879 was influenced by the wacky or what the hell is 3987 04:21:40.959 --> 04:21:49.079 that word Oderheinau knowologist William Fliss, unhappy inventor of the 3988 04:21:49.200 --> 04:21:53.559 nasal reflex neuroses, with whom Freud had developed a very 3989 04:21:53.639 --> 04:21:57.840 peculiar emotional bond. Incidentally, Fleiss's son would later write on 3990 04:21:58.079 --> 04:22:01.319 sexual abuse and hint of his own abuse by his father. 3991 04:22:02.239 --> 04:22:06.000 Massan is the editor of the unextrogated version of Freud's 3992 04:22:06.079 --> 04:22:10.040 letters to Flie. Freud destroyed Fleiss's letters, but failed to 3993 04:22:10.120 --> 04:22:13.520 have his own letters destroyed, which provide unique information on 3994 04:22:13.559 --> 04:22:18.040 the way Freud elaborated his theories. Yet, at the end 3995 04:22:18.079 --> 04:22:20.920 of the fascinating investigation, Massan and miss that the full 3996 04:22:21.040 --> 04:22:26.719 explanation for Freud's sudden conversion eludes him. Additional insight has 3997 04:22:26.719 --> 04:22:30.959 been supplied by two books published almost simultaneously nineteen seventy nine, 3998 04:22:31.399 --> 04:22:34.280 one in French and one in German, both translated in 3999 04:22:34.399 --> 04:22:38.959 English in nineteen eighty two, Marie Balmari Freud and the 4000 04:22:39.079 --> 04:22:42.159 Hidden Faults of the Father and Marianne Krohll Freud and 4001 04:22:42.319 --> 04:22:46.920 his father both draw extensively from Freud's letters to Fleiss, 4002 04:22:47.360 --> 04:22:50.680 which document how Freud was led to his theoretical about 4003 04:22:50.760 --> 04:22:55.520 face by his introspective self analysis. Balmari and Krohl point 4004 04:22:55.559 --> 04:22:58.520 out that Freud undertook this self analysis just after the 4005 04:22:58.600 --> 04:23:02.280 death of his father, Jacob. On November second, eighteen ninety six, 4006 04:23:02.360 --> 04:23:05.079 ten days after his father's death, Freud writes a flice 4007 04:23:05.479 --> 04:23:07.959 about a dream he had the night before his funeral, 4008 04:23:08.040 --> 04:23:10.879 in which appeared a sign saying you are requested to 4009 04:23:10.959 --> 04:23:14.079 close the eyes, which he interpreted as referring to one's 4010 04:23:14.159 --> 04:23:17.719 duty to the dead. Yet, on February eleventh, eighteen ninety six, 4011 04:23:17.799 --> 04:23:21.479 after mentioning that forced oral sex on children can result 4012 04:23:21.639 --> 04:23:25.840 in neurotic symptoms, he adds, ultimately my own father was 4013 04:23:25.920 --> 04:23:28.520 one of those perverts, and is responsible for the hystery 4014 04:23:28.600 --> 04:23:33.200 of my brother, all of whose symptoms are identifications, and 4015 04:23:33.319 --> 04:23:38.479 those of several younger sisters. The frequency of this circumstance 4016 04:23:38.559 --> 04:23:42.079 often makes me wonder. The following summer, he went through 4017 04:23:42.079 --> 04:23:44.920 a depressive episode and wrote on July seventh, I still 4018 04:23:45.000 --> 04:23:48.040 do not know what has been happening to me. Something 4019 04:23:48.079 --> 04:23:50.639 from the deepest depths of my own neurosis set itself 4020 04:23:50.719 --> 04:23:54.600 against any advance in the understanding of the neuroses, and 4021 04:23:54.760 --> 04:23:58.680 you have somehow been involved in it. Soon after September 4022 04:23:58.719 --> 04:24:01.239 twenty first, he announced to his friend, I want to 4023 04:24:01.319 --> 04:24:03.479 confide in you immediately the great secret that has been 4024 04:24:03.520 --> 04:24:06.040 slowly dawning on me in the last few months. I 4025 04:24:06.200 --> 04:24:10.159 no longer believe in my neurotica his seduction theory. He 4026 04:24:10.280 --> 04:24:13.159 gave his one explanation, the surprise that in all cases, 4027 04:24:13.239 --> 04:24:15.920 the father, not excluding my own, had to be accused 4028 04:24:15.959 --> 04:24:19.000 of being perverse. In the next letter, October third, he 4029 04:24:19.040 --> 04:24:22.639 wrote confidently that in the case of his own neuroses, 4030 04:24:22.719 --> 04:24:26.760 the old man plays no active part. Finally, October fifteenth, 4031 04:24:26.840 --> 04:24:30.799 he referred to the Oedipus story, quoting a single idea 4032 04:24:30.799 --> 04:24:33.239 of general value dawned on me. I have found in 4033 04:24:33.319 --> 04:24:36.520 my own case too, the phenomenon of being in love 4034 04:24:36.600 --> 04:24:39.200 with my mother and jealous of my father, and I 4035 04:24:39.360 --> 04:24:46.239 now consider it a universal event in early childhood. Balmari 4036 04:24:46.360 --> 04:24:50.479 and Krall independently build a strong case that Freud backed 4037 04:24:50.520 --> 04:24:53.040 off from a theory which tarnished the ideal image of 4038 04:24:53.120 --> 04:24:56.479 the father he was grieving. After his father's death, Freud 4039 04:24:56.520 --> 04:24:59.200 felt constrained by a mandate that he was unable to resist, 4040 04:24:59.280 --> 04:25:02.079 and hence dutiful son that he was took the guilt 4041 04:25:02.159 --> 04:25:05.639 upon his own shoulders. With help of his Oedipus theory, 4042 04:25:06.760 --> 04:25:11.559 Balmari and Krall bring in the equation a recent biographical 4043 04:25:11.639 --> 04:25:15.760 discovery of Jacob Freud's less than perfect behavior, the forgotten 4044 04:25:15.799 --> 04:25:20.360 second wife named Rebecca, who mysteriously disappears, possibly by suicide, 4045 04:25:20.639 --> 04:25:23.040 at the time of Jacob's marriage with his third wife, 4046 04:25:23.120 --> 04:25:27.280 the beautiful Amelia Nathanson, his half his age and already 4047 04:25:27.360 --> 04:25:30.239 pregnant of Sigmund. Of fact, Jacob tried to conceal by 4048 04:25:30.280 --> 04:25:34.360 falsifying Sigmund's state of birth. In light of post Freudian 4049 04:25:34.479 --> 04:25:39.520 developments in transgenerational depth psychology, it is possible that Freud 4050 04:25:39.600 --> 04:25:42.200 had from early age an intuitive sense of a hidden 4051 04:25:42.239 --> 04:25:45.159 fault to the father linked to his own identity, which 4052 04:25:45.799 --> 04:25:48.639 may have combined with memories of his father's sexual abuse 4053 04:25:48.719 --> 04:25:52.280 on himself and his brothers and sisters. During his self 4054 04:25:52.319 --> 04:25:54.479 analysis at the age of forty, the whole thing came 4055 04:25:54.559 --> 04:25:57.280 knocking at the door of his consciousness, but he finally 4056 04:25:57.319 --> 04:25:59.959 surrenders to the self conscious imperative to close the eye 4057 04:26:00.559 --> 04:26:02.959 to cover up the menacing truth of his father's faults. 4058 04:26:03.559 --> 04:26:08.000 Freud invents of the Oedipus complex, changing children charging children 4059 04:26:08.079 --> 04:26:17.639 themselves as polymorphous perversion, while Mary points out that in 4060 04:26:17.799 --> 04:26:20.680 his personal identification with his hero Oedipus, who solved the 4061 04:26:20.760 --> 04:26:24.600 riddle of the Sphinx, Freud truncated the myth. According to 4062 04:26:24.760 --> 04:26:30.440 Greek tragedians, Oedipus's father, Lais, was cursed by the gods 4063 04:26:30.479 --> 04:26:34.319 for seducing a young teenage boy and leading to his suicide. Then, 4064 04:26:34.440 --> 04:26:37.239 frightened by the oracle's prophecy that he would be killed 4065 04:26:37.280 --> 04:26:40.680 by his own son if he conceived one, conceived one, 4066 04:26:41.159 --> 04:26:44.719 Lais had his newborn son abandoned in the forest ankles 4067 04:26:44.799 --> 04:26:47.840 pierced by the middle by the middle with iron spikes, 4068 04:26:48.319 --> 04:26:53.399 Euripides the Phoenician maidens. Thus, in the complete myth Oedipus, 4069 04:26:54.040 --> 04:26:56.920 Oedipus's predestination to kill his father and marry his mother 4070 04:26:57.040 --> 04:26:59.479 is not determined by his own impulses, but by the 4071 04:26:59.520 --> 04:27:03.239 faults of his own father. For Balmari, Freud's ignorance of 4072 04:27:03.319 --> 04:27:05.600 this part of the myth reveals and symbolizes his own 4073 04:27:05.680 --> 04:27:08.840 blind spot, his failure to discover the secret guilts of 4074 04:27:08.920 --> 04:27:11.799 the father, both of his own father and by consequence, 4075 04:27:11.840 --> 04:27:23.440 the fathers of his neurotic and hysterical patience. Got anything there, No, no, no, 4076 04:27:23.559 --> 04:27:26.639 I'm just following them. Let's keep going, All right, here 4077 04:27:26.719 --> 04:27:32.000 we go, Part four, The dark emotional powers of Jewishness. 4078 04:27:33.440 --> 04:27:37.920 Neither Massan nor BALMII deal with the Jewish aspect of 4079 04:27:37.959 --> 04:27:41.799 this issue. Marion Kroll hints that the father's mandates to 4080 04:27:41.840 --> 04:27:44.680 close the eyes was a question of filial piety, on 4081 04:27:44.799 --> 04:27:48.760 which ultimately the entire Jewish tradition is based, but although 4082 04:27:48.840 --> 04:27:52.879 Jewish herself, she does not insist on that aspect. For 4083 04:27:52.920 --> 04:27:56.440 an interesting reflection on the Jewish hidden background of the 4084 04:27:56.479 --> 04:27:59.479 Oedipus complex, we can turn to the very stimulating Book 4085 04:28:00.120 --> 04:28:03.920 of John Murray Cutahee The Ordeal of Civility. The author 4086 04:28:03.959 --> 04:28:07.840 points out that Freud had been fascinated by Sophocles Sophocles's 4087 04:28:07.920 --> 04:28:11.159 play Oedipus Rex from his adolescence. When he saw it 4088 04:28:11.280 --> 04:28:13.879 played in eighteen eighty five, it made again a deep 4089 04:28:13.920 --> 04:28:17.000 and mysterious impression on him. Twelve years later he wrote 4090 04:28:17.000 --> 04:28:20.200 to Flices that he found, with his new theory of 4091 04:28:20.360 --> 04:28:24.799 universal repressed wishes of incest and parricide, the explanation for 4092 04:28:25.079 --> 04:28:28.799 the gripping power of Oedipus Rex. In other words, comments Cuta, 4093 04:28:28.840 --> 04:28:32.360 he Freud proposes a theory to explain the play's power 4094 04:28:32.479 --> 04:28:35.760 over him and to make intelligible why he should identify 4095 04:28:35.840 --> 04:28:39.360 so deeply with its hero Oedipus. It is in the 4096 04:28:39.440 --> 04:28:41.479 course of that effort that the core of the theory 4097 04:28:41.559 --> 04:28:47.559 of psychoanalysis is born. But then cute, he suggests that, 4098 04:28:50.280 --> 04:28:52.680 but then cute. He suggests that Freud failed to see 4099 04:28:52.719 --> 04:28:56.120 the real origin of his fascination with Oedipus Rex. What 4100 04:28:56.239 --> 04:28:58.559 had resonated deeply in him from the time he first 4101 04:28:58.600 --> 04:29:00.959 read Oedipus Rex was not so much the general plot 4102 04:29:01.000 --> 04:29:03.200 of the play, the hero killing his father and marrying 4103 04:29:03.239 --> 04:29:06.360 his mother as the circumstances in which Oedipus killed his father. 4104 04:29:06.639 --> 04:29:09.879 Coming down a narrow road, Oedipus was rudely ordered to 4105 04:29:10.000 --> 04:29:12.559 step aside by the herald of the king, then was 4106 04:29:12.600 --> 04:29:15.719 struck on the head by the king himself. Enraged, Oedipus 4107 04:29:15.799 --> 04:29:17.879 slew the king, his herald and the rest of his 4108 04:29:18.159 --> 04:29:22.319 retinue except one. This story, not acted but narrated in 4109 04:29:22.399 --> 04:29:25.440 the play, bears an uncanny resemblance with another story that 4110 04:29:25.520 --> 04:29:28.399 had made a lasting impression on Freud a few years earlier. 4111 04:29:29.120 --> 04:29:33.319 As he explained in the Interpretation of Dreams, this is 4112 04:29:33.399 --> 04:29:35.719 the story of a father. This is a story that 4113 04:29:35.840 --> 04:29:39.159 his father, a stead old Jew from Morovia, where Sigmund 4114 04:29:39.239 --> 04:29:44.479 was born. Moravia, where Sigmund was born, had told him 4115 04:29:44.760 --> 04:29:48.639 when he was ten or twelve years old, quoting to 4116 04:29:48.760 --> 04:29:50.920 show how much better things were now than they had 4117 04:29:50.959 --> 04:29:53.639 been in his days. When I was a young man, 4118 04:29:53.879 --> 04:29:56.239 he said, I went for a walk one Saturday in 4119 04:29:56.319 --> 04:29:58.760 the streets to your birthplace. I was well dressed and 4120 04:29:58.879 --> 04:30:01.120 had a new kap on my head. A Christian came 4121 04:30:01.200 --> 04:30:03.040 up to me and with a single blow, knocked off 4122 04:30:03.120 --> 04:30:05.360 my cap into the mud and shouted, jew, get off 4123 04:30:05.399 --> 04:30:08.879 the pavement. And what did you do? I asked, I 4124 04:30:08.959 --> 04:30:11.120 went into the roadway and picked up my cap. Was 4125 04:30:11.159 --> 04:30:15.200 his quiet reply that struck me as unheeric conduct than 4126 04:30:15.239 --> 04:30:17.319 the part of the big strong man who was holding 4127 04:30:17.360 --> 04:30:20.840 a little boy by the hand. I contrasted this situation 4128 04:30:21.040 --> 04:30:24.559 with another which befitted my feelings better, the scene in 4129 04:30:24.600 --> 04:30:29.600 which Hannibal's father, hamilkar Barka made his boy swear before 4130 04:30:29.680 --> 04:30:33.040 the household altered to take vengeance on the Romans. Ever 4131 04:30:33.159 --> 04:30:36.200 since that time, Hannibal has had a place in my fantasies. 4132 04:30:38.719 --> 04:30:42.719 Freud cut he argues, had experienced shame, had experienced shame 4133 04:30:42.760 --> 04:30:44.840 of his father, and to be ashamed of a father 4134 04:30:45.120 --> 04:30:49.879 is a kind of moral parricide. Quoting Freud, presumably experienced 4135 04:30:49.920 --> 04:30:52.159 not only this rage and shame, but guilt about the 4136 04:30:52.239 --> 04:30:56.399 rage and shame. He quickly censored these unacceptable feelings. Unacceptable 4137 04:30:56.479 --> 04:31:00.479 to a dutiful son, ostensibly proud of his father, he 4138 04:31:00.639 --> 04:31:04.559 repressed them. Years later, he encounters Sophocle's tragedy and it 4139 04:31:04.680 --> 04:31:11.120 lays a spell on him. Still later, after his father's death, 4140 04:31:11.120 --> 04:31:14.280 he rationalized the spell with a universal theory that discharged 4141 04:31:14.360 --> 04:31:17.840 him from further inquiry into his own family story. But 4142 04:31:18.520 --> 04:31:22.639 the idea fix which that Oedipus was to become for 4143 04:31:22.879 --> 04:31:26.399 Freud cut he maintains, hinges on a small detail, small 4144 04:31:26.440 --> 04:31:29.159 but structurally indispensable of the action of the story that 4145 04:31:29.319 --> 04:31:32.479 Freud never mentions in all the countless times he retells 4146 04:31:32.559 --> 04:31:35.920 the legend a social insult, a discourtesy on the road 4147 04:31:36.000 --> 04:31:39.600 stemming from someone in a position of social superiority, King 4148 04:31:39.719 --> 04:31:43.600 Laius to the unknown wayfarer Oedipus, just as a Christian 4149 04:31:43.680 --> 04:31:47.399 in Freiburg who forced Jacob Freud into the gutter. According 4150 04:31:47.399 --> 04:31:50.959 to kutahe the supposedly universal Oedipus complex that Freud thought 4151 04:31:51.000 --> 04:31:55.319 he discovered was in reality the veil of characteristically was 4152 04:31:55.399 --> 04:31:59.840 the veil of a characteristically Jewish complex of his time. 4153 04:32:02.920 --> 04:32:10.520 Again over, yeah, I was just gonna say, because in 4154 04:32:10.639 --> 04:32:14.760 his book Totem and Taboo, Freud is basically trying to 4155 04:32:15.280 --> 04:32:21.120 again create like an originary scene for how societies sort 4156 04:32:21.120 --> 04:32:27.399 of organize themselves. And the basic idea is this idea, 4157 04:32:27.520 --> 04:32:31.559 the myth of the primal Horde, which, to put it really, 4158 04:32:31.639 --> 04:32:38.000 really simplistically is describes this symbolic murder of the father 4159 04:32:38.399 --> 04:32:44.399 by the sons, And I'm just I've never looked at 4160 04:32:45.280 --> 04:32:47.520 the because it's been like many, many, many years since 4161 04:32:47.559 --> 04:32:50.280 I read some of these books, certainly before I ever 4162 04:32:50.440 --> 04:32:54.520 took on like this kind of framework to think about them. 4163 04:32:55.520 --> 04:32:58.280 I'm sitting here just wondering now with the implications of 4164 04:32:59.280 --> 04:33:05.680 his anti pological explanation would be, you know, in the 4165 04:33:05.799 --> 04:33:11.000 context of this Jewish persecution, the weakness of his own father, 4166 04:33:13.520 --> 04:33:17.159 the way his own parental sort of by the way 4167 04:33:17.200 --> 04:33:20.159 that id fix means fetish, so the way his own 4168 04:33:20.240 --> 04:33:26.400 sort of fetishized parental relations are informing his his hys theorizing. 4169 04:33:26.720 --> 04:33:28.639 I'm gonna mallel that one a little bit more, but yeah, 4170 04:33:28.680 --> 04:33:28.880 you can. 4171 04:33:29.000 --> 04:33:34.439 You can continue, even if we judge that I already 4172 04:33:34.439 --> 04:33:36.880 read that one, or did I. 4173 04:33:39.119 --> 04:33:39.759 I don't think he did. 4174 04:33:39.919 --> 04:33:44.599 Okay, even if we I'm sorry, you know, that's yeah, 4175 04:33:44.639 --> 04:33:48.159 Even if we judge, yeah, even if we judge that 4176 04:33:48.479 --> 04:33:51.799 that thesis overstrained, it is questionable how the fantasies with 4177 04:33:51.959 --> 04:33:55.240 pH of avenging and killing the father could merge. We 4178 04:33:55.319 --> 04:33:57.400 can appreciate how kind of he draws attention to the 4179 04:33:57.439 --> 04:34:00.319 fact that Freud's father, the father whom he felt held 4180 04:34:00.360 --> 04:34:04.520 to exculpate, but toward whom he nevertheless experienced a murder. 4181 04:34:04.639 --> 04:34:08.560 Wish was a Jewish father recently immigrated from Yiddish Land 4182 04:34:08.880 --> 04:34:14.799 into the heart of European civilization. Freud's disciple and first biographer, 4183 04:34:14.919 --> 04:34:17.959 Ernest Jones remarks that Freud felt himself to be Jewish 4184 04:34:18.040 --> 04:34:20.240 to the core, and evidently it met a great deal 4185 04:34:20.360 --> 04:34:25.000 to him. Books dealing specifically with Freud's Jewishness, such as 4186 04:34:26.000 --> 04:34:30.200 Moishe gracer Dual Allegiance Freud as a Modern Jew Sunny 4187 04:34:30.200 --> 04:34:32.959 Press nineteen ninety four, can rely on several statements made 4188 04:34:32.959 --> 04:34:37.159 by Freud himself, either in private correspondence or in Jewish environment. 4189 04:34:37.959 --> 04:34:41.200 In the preface for the Hebrew translation of Totem and Taboo, 4190 04:34:41.279 --> 04:34:45.520 for example, asking himself rhetorically, what is Jewish in his work? 4191 04:34:45.639 --> 04:34:49.240 Freud answered, A very great deal and probably its very essence. 4192 04:34:49.759 --> 04:34:52.720 In a speech prepared for delivery at the Benet Breath 4193 04:34:52.799 --> 04:34:55.479 Lodge in Vienna in nineteen twenty six, Freud explained his 4194 04:34:55.599 --> 04:34:59.080 motivation for joining thirty years earlier in eighteen ninety seven. 4195 04:35:01.159 --> 04:35:05.119 Whenever I have experienced feelings of national exultation, I've tried 4196 04:35:05.159 --> 04:35:07.959 to suppress them as disastrous and unfair, frightened by the 4197 04:35:08.040 --> 04:35:11.200 warning example of those nations among which we Jews live, 4198 04:35:12.000 --> 04:35:15.479 but there remained enough to make the attraction of Judaism 4199 04:35:15.560 --> 04:35:19.119 and the Jews irresistible. Many dark emotional powers all the 4200 04:35:19.200 --> 04:35:22.599 stronger the less they could be expressed in words, as 4201 04:35:22.639 --> 04:35:25.919 well as the clear consciousness of an inner identity, the 4202 04:35:25.959 --> 04:35:30.200 familiarity of the same psychological structure. So I became one 4203 04:35:30.240 --> 04:35:35.000 of you. The statement is actually excellent. 4204 04:35:36.520 --> 04:35:38.040 I was just gonna say that sounds very much like 4205 04:35:38.119 --> 04:35:43.799 the Ordeal of Civility hypothesis right there, that trying to 4206 04:35:44.360 --> 04:35:48.720 become stepping out of the schedtle, stepping out of their 4207 04:35:48.799 --> 04:35:54.520 sort of tight knit, borderline, incestuous little world, and suddenly 4208 04:35:54.959 --> 04:35:59.959 they're confronted with, you know, the technological modernity of European societ. 4209 04:36:02.520 --> 04:36:04.439 I don't know if this is kind of his argument, 4210 04:36:04.479 --> 04:36:06.799 because I've actually never read The Ordeal of Civility, But 4211 04:36:06.919 --> 04:36:09.639 that could if we wanted to take a more cynical 4212 04:36:09.680 --> 04:36:15.119 approach to to explaining why he has gone through these 4213 04:36:15.200 --> 04:36:19.279 changes in his psychological theory. I mean, it could be 4214 04:36:19.439 --> 04:36:22.400 that he wanted to in the same way he wanted 4215 04:36:22.400 --> 04:36:24.880 to absolve his father. He also wanted to absolve his 4216 04:36:25.040 --> 04:36:30.000 people of their own dysfunction, their ugliness, the violence that 4217 04:36:30.119 --> 04:36:38.279 their community sort of harbors. That in bringing bringing Jewish 4218 04:36:38.599 --> 04:36:46.000 society to gentile society, he wanted to sort of make 4219 04:36:46.080 --> 04:36:50.159 their dysfunction like not a particular dysfunction. I mean, I 4220 04:36:50.200 --> 04:36:53.840 don't know if is he would we say that his theorizing, 4221 04:36:54.119 --> 04:36:56.919 the universalizing of his theory is a way to whitewash, 4222 04:36:57.439 --> 04:37:01.479 particularly particularly Jewish dysfunction. Is it a way to help 4223 04:37:01.680 --> 04:37:06.000 integrate Jews into gentile society by saying, well, all this 4224 04:37:06.959 --> 04:37:13.880 expressly Jewish dysfunction is actually sort of a universal human tendency. 4225 04:37:14.759 --> 04:37:17.319 I don't know, but that sentence, so I became one 4226 04:37:17.400 --> 04:37:20.360 of you is very telling to me. 4227 04:37:23.439 --> 04:37:25.479 Well, what I think is interesting here is that he 4228 04:37:25.599 --> 04:37:28.599 says that he joined the Bena Brith in eighteen ninety seven, 4229 04:37:28.720 --> 04:37:31.799 which is I believe they says the year his father died. 4230 04:37:34.080 --> 04:37:38.000 I believe it says that earlier in the article. So 4231 04:37:38.400 --> 04:37:41.880 he's it seems like if he's joining the Bene Breath 4232 04:37:41.919 --> 04:37:44.880 at that point, he's embracing his Judaism as his father 4233 04:37:45.119 --> 04:37:49.680 is passing, and I don't know what his dad dies 4234 04:37:49.759 --> 04:37:56.159 on November two, eighteen ninety six or ten days before that, 4235 04:37:56.680 --> 04:37:59.000 and then the next year he joins the ben a breath, 4236 04:37:59.080 --> 04:38:04.599 which is I assume to be around, be around other Jews, 4237 04:38:04.919 --> 04:38:09.799 or even to find a replace his father in some 4238 04:38:09.959 --> 04:38:13.520 way by finding somebody who you know, in a leadership 4239 04:38:13.599 --> 04:38:16.919 role in Judaism. I don't know, just there as yeah. 4240 04:38:19.759 --> 04:38:22.240 The statement is an excellent illustration of what cut he 4241 04:38:22.400 --> 04:38:25.479 calls the ordeal of civility, The struggle of every Jew 4242 04:38:25.520 --> 04:38:28.400 who wishes to assimilate yet feels unable to overcome the 4243 04:38:28.520 --> 04:38:32.639 dark emotional powers of his ancestral Jewishness, with its implicit 4244 04:38:32.720 --> 04:38:36.520 imperative not to assimilate. Jewishness has much to do with 4245 04:38:36.680 --> 04:38:43.080 what Ivan Menagi calls those invisible loyalties. They combined a 4246 04:38:43.159 --> 04:38:47.479 person to his ancestors by an irresistible system of values, obligations, 4247 04:38:47.599 --> 04:38:51.720 and debts. The question is to what extent freud psychoanalytical 4248 04:38:51.880 --> 04:38:55.000 theory is the result of Freud's surrender to those dark 4249 04:38:55.119 --> 04:39:00.479 emotional to those dark emotional powers. We must fikee Freud 4250 04:39:00.560 --> 04:39:03.799 seriously when he tells us in the Interpretation of Dreams 4251 04:39:03.880 --> 04:39:06.959 that his own Jewishness took the form of an identification 4252 04:39:07.119 --> 04:39:11.119 with Hannibal and the fantasy of taking vengeance on the Romans. 4253 04:39:11.799 --> 04:39:15.319 He went on to say, quoting I myself had walked 4254 04:39:15.360 --> 04:39:18.560 in Hannibal's footsteps. Hannibal, with whom I had achieved this 4255 04:39:18.720 --> 04:39:21.720 point of similarity, had been my favorite hero during my 4256 04:39:21.840 --> 04:39:25.240 years at the Gymnasium. Moreover, when I finally came to 4257 04:39:25.360 --> 04:39:28.639 realize the consequences of belonging to an alien race and 4258 04:39:28.840 --> 04:39:32.080 was forced by the anti Semitic feeling among my classmates 4259 04:39:32.119 --> 04:39:34.759 to take a definite stand, the figure of the Semitic 4260 04:39:35.000 --> 04:39:39.880 commander assumed still greater proportions in my imagination. Hannibal and 4261 04:39:40.000 --> 04:39:42.720 Rome symbolized in my youthful eyes to struggle between the 4262 04:39:42.799 --> 04:39:45.759 tenacity of the Jews and the organization of the Catholic Church. 4263 04:39:46.479 --> 04:39:50.159 The significance for our emotional life which the Antisemitic movement 4264 04:39:50.240 --> 04:39:53.080 has since assumed, helped to fix the thoughts and impressions 4265 04:39:53.119 --> 04:39:55.919 of those early days. Thus, the desire to go to 4266 04:39:56.119 --> 04:39:59.759 Rome has in my dream life become the mask and 4267 04:40:00.000 --> 04:40:03.360 bimble for a number of warmly cherished wishes, for whose 4268 04:40:03.439 --> 04:40:06.560 realization one had to work with the tenacity and single 4269 04:40:06.639 --> 04:40:10.840 mindedness of the Punic general. Though their fulfillment at times 4270 04:40:10.919 --> 04:40:14.400 seemed as remote as Hannibal's lifelong wish to enter Rome. 4271 04:40:16.319 --> 04:40:19.200 The significance of this public confession, printed in eighteen ninety 4272 04:40:19.240 --> 04:40:21.400 nine for all the world to read, cannot be overstated. 4273 04:40:22.000 --> 04:40:24.520 Here Freud names as a driving force for his life 4274 04:40:24.599 --> 04:40:27.840 the fantasy of entering Rome, the Christian world and destroying 4275 04:40:27.880 --> 04:40:32.680 it to avenge the Phoenicians the Jews. If Freud was 4276 04:40:32.720 --> 04:40:35.799 deeply influenced by his Jewish background, so were the other 4277 04:40:36.080 --> 04:40:40.000 founding members of the Psychoanalytical movement. Dennis Klein writes in 4278 04:40:40.159 --> 04:40:44.560 Jewish Origins of the Psychoanalytical Movement, quoting from its beginning 4279 04:40:44.599 --> 04:40:46.919 in nineteen oh two to nineteen oh six, all seventeen 4280 04:40:46.959 --> 04:40:50.040 members were Jewish. The full significance of this number lies 4281 04:40:50.119 --> 04:40:53.759 again in the way they viewed themselves. For the analysts 4282 04:40:53.799 --> 04:40:57.119 were aware of their Jewishness and frequently maintained the sense 4283 04:40:57.159 --> 04:41:01.000 of Jewish purpose and solidarity. This feeling of positive Jewish 4284 04:41:01.119 --> 04:41:04.319 pride formed the matrix of the movement in the psychoanalytical 4285 04:41:04.479 --> 04:41:07.959 circle as a spirits are renewed independence. It tightened the 4286 04:41:08.000 --> 04:41:10.959 bond among the members and powered their self image of 4287 04:41:11.040 --> 04:41:17.240 a redemptive elite The exception is Carl Jung, whom Freud 4288 04:41:17.400 --> 04:41:21.560 named president of the International psycho Analytical Association in nineteen ten, 4289 04:41:22.000 --> 04:41:25.240 precisely is to deflect the reproach that psychoanalysis was a 4290 04:41:25.279 --> 04:41:29.319 Jewish science. Interestingly, Jung is the only member who never 4291 04:41:29.400 --> 04:41:34.319 subscribed to Freud's theory of infantile sexuality. In response to 4292 04:41:34.360 --> 04:41:37.159 a letter by Karl Abraham, who complained that Jung seems 4293 04:41:37.200 --> 04:41:41.720 to be reverting to his former spiritualistic inclinations, Freud explained, 4294 04:41:41.840 --> 04:41:44.840 it is really easier for you than it is for 4295 04:41:45.000 --> 04:41:48.720 Jung to follow my ideas, for you stand nearer to 4296 04:41:48.840 --> 04:41:54.040 my intellectual constitution because of racial kinship. Freud asked Abraham 4297 04:41:54.159 --> 04:41:57.240 not to antagonize Jung because it was only by his 4298 04:41:57.360 --> 04:42:00.319 appearance on the scene a psychoanalysis escaped the danger of 4299 04:42:00.400 --> 04:42:06.919 becoming a Jewish national affair. In contrast to Young, Abraham 4300 04:42:07.279 --> 04:42:09.799 was the most zealous supporter of Freud's theory of infantile 4301 04:42:09.919 --> 04:42:13.439 sexuality in the history of the socho analytical movement. In 4302 04:42:13.479 --> 04:42:15.959 nineteen nineteen, Freud wrote that the last word in the 4303 04:42:16.040 --> 04:42:20.720 question of traumatic etiology was later on said by Abraham 4304 04:42:21.159 --> 04:42:24.400 when he drew attention to the fact that just the 4305 04:42:24.479 --> 04:42:28.040 peculiar nature of a child's sexual constitution enables it to 4306 04:42:28.119 --> 04:42:31.759 provoke sexual experiences of a peculiar kind, that is to say, 4307 04:42:32.040 --> 04:42:37.200 traumas self inflicted traumas, so to speak. Freud was referring 4308 04:42:37.240 --> 04:42:40.319 to a nineteen oh seventeen paper by Abraham, the experiencing 4309 04:42:40.360 --> 04:42:43.840 of sexual trauma as a form of sexual activity. It 4310 04:42:43.919 --> 04:42:46.799 is perhaps significant that Abraham, son of an Orthodox rabbi, 4311 04:42:47.000 --> 04:42:50.919 was also the most ethnocentric of Freud's disciples. He wrote 4312 04:42:50.959 --> 04:42:57.520 in nineteen thirteen an essay on neurotic exogamy, diagnosing Jewish 4313 04:42:57.599 --> 04:43:00.200 men who say they could never marry a Jewish us 4314 04:43:00.279 --> 04:43:04.400 with a neurosis resulting from disappointed incestuous love. 4315 04:43:07.759 --> 04:43:13.639 I wondered, Yeah, not not to interrupt too much, I 4316 04:43:13.680 --> 04:43:16.520 always wondered why. I mean, because that that basically Jung's 4317 04:43:16.560 --> 04:43:22.119 rejection of the seduction theory, really his rejection of Freud's 4318 04:43:22.360 --> 04:43:25.279 sort of like, if you want to say, fixation on 4319 04:43:26.400 --> 04:43:30.840 child's childhood sexuality, was the wedge that drove them apart. 4320 04:43:31.479 --> 04:43:35.880 And the further that uh as that as that that 4321 04:43:36.040 --> 04:43:41.040 sort of disagreement became more pronounced than Freud started to 4322 04:43:42.400 --> 04:43:46.599 more aggressively attack Carl Jung privately and publicly, even taking 4323 04:43:46.639 --> 04:43:49.479 out full page of newspaper ads saying that he was 4324 04:43:52.200 --> 04:43:56.599 basically undermining him in his career. I've always wondered why 4325 04:43:57.400 --> 04:44:03.400 Jung didn't take up that that explanation of Freud's and 4326 04:44:03.759 --> 04:44:06.680 I just wonder if that speaks to like a fundamentally 4327 04:44:06.919 --> 04:44:11.360 different sort of I don't know, if you want to 4328 04:44:11.439 --> 04:44:15.319 say just cultural hygiene between gentiles and Jews, that it's 4329 04:44:15.560 --> 04:44:21.680 like less credulous to like a gentile of well upbringing 4330 04:44:22.000 --> 04:44:26.840 to believe that there's rampant sexual violence going on. 4331 04:44:27.040 --> 04:44:27.680 I don't know. 4332 04:44:28.159 --> 04:44:33.240 Jung was famously sort of sort of had his own 4333 04:44:33.479 --> 04:44:38.360 sexual hang ups, or maybe not hang ups per se, 4334 04:44:38.520 --> 04:44:46.880 but we'll put it this way. He brought pleasure into 4335 04:44:47.000 --> 04:44:50.720 his private practice quite a bit. In fact, Freud chastised 4336 04:44:50.759 --> 04:44:56.400 him for romancing his his patience, and Carl Jung would even, 4337 04:44:56.599 --> 04:45:01.319 like when he was giving speaking engagements, he would travel 4338 04:45:01.400 --> 04:45:04.159 with his wife and his family and his mistress, so 4339 04:45:04.279 --> 04:45:07.880 like he had his own sort of sexual I guess 4340 04:45:07.919 --> 04:45:10.840 if you want to say sexual identity related issues. But 4341 04:45:10.880 --> 04:45:15.400 it was never clear to me why why he took 4342 04:45:15.520 --> 04:45:19.400 such a conflict with Freud on that point. I mean, 4343 04:45:21.439 --> 04:45:25.680 I don't know, just wondering out that. Well, here's a 4344 04:45:25.759 --> 04:45:27.279 question for you, and I don't know if you know 4345 04:45:27.479 --> 04:45:30.520 this or not. You know, basically the beginning of this 4346 04:45:30.720 --> 04:45:34.240 and through the beginning, it seems to imply that there 4347 04:45:34.400 --> 04:45:39.840 may have been a problem with parents, fathers molesting their 4348 04:45:40.479 --> 04:45:44.040 children in the Jewish community, and that it still happens 4349 04:45:44.319 --> 04:45:45.240 through today. 4350 04:45:46.880 --> 04:45:52.439 Back then. Do you know how do you know how 4351 04:45:53.840 --> 04:45:56.959 was that just common? Was that just something that was 4352 04:45:57.919 --> 04:46:02.000 you know, was done by more than just Jews. There 4353 04:46:02.040 --> 04:46:03.799 were a lot there were a lot of cultures that 4354 04:46:03.959 --> 04:46:04.520 engaged in that. 4355 04:46:06.880 --> 04:46:10.759 I certainly couldn't point to like empirical proof of that. 4356 04:46:11.080 --> 04:46:17.959 I mean, I think it's probably not just a problem 4357 04:46:18.119 --> 04:46:21.599 in like the Jewish community, but I mean the type 4358 04:46:21.599 --> 04:46:24.119 of dysfunction that Carl Jung, I mean, there was not 4359 04:46:24.279 --> 04:46:28.159 a lack of sort of friction between him and his father, 4360 04:46:28.759 --> 04:46:33.720 but it was of an entirely different nature. Jung's father, 4361 04:46:34.040 --> 04:46:37.560 I think was I don't remember. I don't think he 4362 04:46:37.680 --> 04:46:39.479 killed himself, but he was sort of like a faith 4363 04:46:39.560 --> 04:46:42.680 he was a pastor, but he also had his own 4364 04:46:45.360 --> 04:46:53.439 sort of personality conflicts. Yeah, I don't think I have 4365 04:46:53.479 --> 04:46:55.840 an answer to that. Question. I don't think it's a 4366 04:46:56.439 --> 04:46:59.200 strictly Jewish phenomenon. I think what is unique to the 4367 04:46:59.279 --> 04:47:02.880 Jewish community, and it clearly has been for a long time, 4368 04:47:03.159 --> 04:47:08.279 is like circumcision is effectively part of their tradition and 4369 04:47:08.400 --> 04:47:10.240 has been for a very long time. And do we 4370 04:47:10.319 --> 04:47:13.560 have to get specific into a kind of, you know, 4371 04:47:16.040 --> 04:47:19.880 all overly narrow idea that that sexual violence. I mean 4372 04:47:19.919 --> 04:47:23.000 that to me, circumcision is a kind of sexual violence. 4373 04:47:24.040 --> 04:47:29.759 The rabbi cleaning the aftermath of that with his mouth. 4374 04:47:29.840 --> 04:47:32.799 This is basically a violation, whether we want to talk 4375 04:47:32.919 --> 04:47:35.360 in more overt terms or in a sort of to 4376 04:47:35.479 --> 04:47:41.479 borrow Freudian word, a sort of sublimated religious excuse for 4377 04:47:41.680 --> 04:47:46.919 engaging in the same kind of territorial behavior. It's no 4378 04:47:47.000 --> 04:47:49.360 matter what way you want to look at it, there's 4379 04:47:49.400 --> 04:47:54.439 something intrinsic to their community that produces that sort of dysfunction. 4380 04:47:55.159 --> 04:47:58.240 But I mean, I don't think it's if we just 4381 04:47:58.360 --> 04:48:03.279 wanted to talk about the problem of incest more generally, 4382 04:48:03.520 --> 04:48:10.240 or like familial sexual violence more generally. I think is 4383 04:48:10.279 --> 04:48:14.439 out there, what's it? What's kind of I did my 4384 04:48:14.599 --> 04:48:18.799 own show on my substack ebl on the work of 4385 04:48:18.880 --> 04:48:22.360 George Patai recently, and one of the questions that we 4386 04:48:22.479 --> 04:48:25.919 had sort of raised. George Pattai was a French well, 4387 04:48:25.959 --> 04:48:29.520 he was a seminary student, and then he became sort 4388 04:48:29.560 --> 04:48:34.360 of a sort of your stereotypical kind of French pervert philosopher, 4389 04:48:35.240 --> 04:48:37.959 and he carried on this tradition that you see a 4390 04:48:38.000 --> 04:48:43.880 lot during Freud's time and after, where there's this extreme 4391 04:48:45.159 --> 04:48:52.759 preoccupation with incest as a sort of foundational anthropological, psychological 4392 04:48:52.880 --> 04:48:56.560 question to be answered about human nature. And some of 4393 04:48:56.599 --> 04:49:00.279 the most obvious examples of intellectuals who approached that question 4394 04:49:00.439 --> 04:49:05.119 were Freud, but also Levi Strauss, who was also Jewish, 4395 04:49:05.439 --> 04:49:07.560 and there were a number of Jewish intellectuals at that 4396 04:49:07.680 --> 04:49:12.720 time who in their social theorizing were wondering about the 4397 04:49:12.880 --> 04:49:16.720 foundational rule incest place what it tells us about human nature. 4398 04:49:17.159 --> 04:49:19.799 And they weren't all Jews. He did that. George Batie 4399 04:49:20.000 --> 04:49:22.840 was not Jewish, but he was also very heavily influenced 4400 04:49:22.840 --> 04:49:27.119 by Levi Strauss. And you know, that to me is 4401 04:49:27.200 --> 04:49:31.520 like sort of an indication that there's an overrepresentation of 4402 04:49:31.680 --> 04:49:34.680 this problem in that community. But I don't think by 4403 04:49:34.720 --> 04:49:38.759 any stretch of the imagination they were the only ones. 4404 04:49:38.639 --> 04:49:44.720 To uniquely deal with that. Okay, a new section denial 4405 04:49:44.880 --> 04:49:50.439 projection inversion. I suggest that Freud's abandon of the seduction 4406 04:49:50.599 --> 04:49:53.200 theory and it's cover up by the Oedips complex were 4407 04:49:53.240 --> 04:49:57.319 motivated half unconsciously, at least by Freud's loyalty not only 4408 04:49:57.400 --> 04:50:00.639 to his father but to his Jewish community. In the 4409 04:50:00.720 --> 04:50:04.520 eighteen nineties, Freud's clientele was drawn exclusively from the Jewish 4410 04:50:04.560 --> 04:50:07.959 middle class. Imagine if Freud's seduction theory had earned him 4411 04:50:08.000 --> 04:50:11.959 the recognition he craved for. Although he disguised the identity 4412 04:50:12.000 --> 04:50:14.439 of his patients and his case studies, it would not 4413 04:50:14.560 --> 04:50:17.479 have been long before his work was attacked not just 4414 04:50:17.599 --> 04:50:20.840 as Jewish science, but as evidence of the depravity of 4415 04:50:20.919 --> 04:50:28.279 Jewish mores. However, I don't think Freud's consciousness. I don't 4416 04:50:28.279 --> 04:50:32.000 think Freud reasoned consciously in this manner. As he was 4417 04:50:32.040 --> 04:50:35.119 turning a blind eye in the incestuous sexuality of his 4418 04:50:35.279 --> 04:50:39.639 patient's family, his blindness was not fake, but psychologically constrained. 4419 04:50:39.759 --> 04:50:43.560 It is the blindness that characterizes Jewishness. At the core, 4420 04:50:43.680 --> 04:50:47.799 Jewishness is the conviction deeply internalized from the earliest age 4421 04:50:47.919 --> 04:50:53.520 of the superiority of Jews over non Jews chosenness. Anything 4422 04:50:53.599 --> 04:50:57.639 contradicting this superiority creates a cognitive dissonance which is overcome 4423 04:50:57.759 --> 04:51:04.959 by denial. Denial means projection. To protect the dirty secret 4424 04:51:05.040 --> 04:51:08.319 of child abuse and Jewish families, including his own, Freud 4425 04:51:08.360 --> 04:51:13.959 projected an imaginary, repressed, infantile perversion on all mankind. Projection, 4426 04:51:14.119 --> 04:51:18.919 in turn, means inversion. Freud's close disciple Otto Rank claimed 4427 04:51:18.919 --> 04:51:21.919 the Jews had a more primitive and therefore more healthy 4428 04:51:22.000 --> 04:51:28.159 sexuality than Gentiles. Freudians and Freudo Marxists have systematically denounced 4429 04:51:28.240 --> 04:51:33.520 Christian civilization as suffering from sexual repression. According to Wilhelm Reich, 4430 04:51:33.680 --> 04:51:37.959 anti Semitism is itself a symptom of sexual frustration and 4431 04:51:38.080 --> 04:51:41.200 could be cured by sexual liberation. The Mass Psychology of 4432 04:51:41.279 --> 04:51:45.400 Fascism nineteen thirty four, an improvement from Leo Pinsker's theory 4433 04:51:45.479 --> 04:51:49.240 that judaeophobia was a hereditary and incurable disease transmitted for 4434 04:51:49.360 --> 04:51:54.040 two thousand years. In order to understand the psychological background 4435 04:51:54.159 --> 04:51:58.040 of the Reichean Messianic mission to cure the Christian West, 4436 04:51:58.080 --> 04:52:00.799 and in order to see more clearly the projective nature 4437 04:52:01.119 --> 04:52:04.240 of the psychoanalytical theory of repression. It is helpful to 4438 04:52:04.360 --> 04:52:07.200 know that the personal story of Wilhelm Reich, which reads 4439 04:52:07.240 --> 04:52:10.319 as a caricature of Freud's. At ten years old, when 4440 04:52:10.360 --> 04:52:12.360 he realized that his mother was having an affair with 4441 04:52:12.520 --> 04:52:15.599 his tutor, the young Wilhelm thought of blackmailing his mother 4442 04:52:15.720 --> 04:52:19.560 into having sex with him. Eventually, he confided in his father, 4443 04:52:19.720 --> 04:52:23.439 that is, about his mother's adultery. In nineteen ten, after 4444 04:52:23.520 --> 04:52:26.799 a period of beatings from his father, his mother committed suicide, 4445 04:52:27.159 --> 04:52:32.439 in which Reich blamed himself. One of the most puzzling 4446 04:52:33.040 --> 04:52:35.880 aspects of Jewish relationship with their host nations is its 4447 04:52:35.919 --> 04:52:40.520 ambivalence pattern on Biblical history. Within Jewish thinking, saving the 4448 04:52:40.680 --> 04:52:42.959 nations and destroying them are not two sides of the 4449 04:52:43.000 --> 04:52:46.000 same coin, but one and the same, because what nations 4450 04:52:46.000 --> 04:52:49.000 are supposed to be cured of is their very identity, 4451 04:52:49.439 --> 04:52:53.959 their gods in biblical terms. According to Andrew Hines, author 4452 04:52:54.040 --> 04:52:57.159 of Jews in the American Soul, Jews have shaped American 4453 04:52:57.200 --> 04:53:00.119 ideas about the mind and soul with the preoccupation to 4454 04:53:00.279 --> 04:53:04.720 purge the evils they associated with Christian civilization. It really 4455 04:53:04.759 --> 04:53:07.919 started with Freud and September nineteen oh nine, invited to 4456 04:53:07.959 --> 04:53:11.080 give a series of lectures in New England, Freud jokingly 4457 04:53:11.200 --> 04:53:15.319 asked his companion Sandor Ferenci and Carl Jung, don't they 4458 04:53:15.479 --> 04:53:19.840 know we're bringing them the plague? An extraordinary statement for 4459 04:53:19.919 --> 04:53:22.840 a medical doctor pretending to have found a cure for 4460 04:53:22.959 --> 04:53:27.599 neurosis and a prophetic one. Freudianism became a justification for 4461 04:53:27.680 --> 04:53:30.639 a sexual liberation that can be seen in retrospect as 4462 04:53:30.720 --> 04:53:32.959 a massive sexual abuse of the youth. 4463 04:53:34.439 --> 04:53:40.680 So I don't want to rebut this too strongly. It's 4464 04:53:40.799 --> 04:53:44.479 just worth pointing out that Reich was a critic of Freud, 4465 04:53:45.840 --> 04:53:51.040 and that Reike they met in nineteen nineteen. Reich did 4466 04:53:51.200 --> 04:53:54.520 try to get to some degree into Freud's inner circle, 4467 04:53:54.919 --> 04:53:58.119 have access to his clientele, and he took up some 4468 04:53:58.279 --> 04:54:03.240 of Freud's theory rising but certainly by the end of 4469 04:54:03.279 --> 04:54:06.680 his career he was sort of an antagonist to Freud. 4470 04:54:06.840 --> 04:54:13.720 And there's some I think there's I don't want to 4471 04:54:13.759 --> 04:54:17.200 sound like I'm trying to do apologetics here because I'm 4472 04:54:17.240 --> 04:54:20.319 not really a Freudian. I think he's an interesting person 4473 04:54:20.400 --> 04:54:24.119 in in you know, intellectual history, but there's there's a 4474 04:54:24.200 --> 04:54:27.799 sort of a difference between Freud and then Freudianism that 4475 04:54:27.959 --> 04:54:30.279 followed after him. And there's a lot of people who 4476 04:54:31.000 --> 04:54:35.799 took up Freud as a kind of revolutionary figure. It 4477 04:54:35.880 --> 04:54:41.080 took his ideas as a as a vehicle for like 4478 04:54:41.200 --> 04:54:45.319 anti Christian, anti gentile, anti you know, Western polemics. I mean, 4479 04:54:45.799 --> 04:54:51.479 as Lourene Greynatt mentions earlier in the passage that you read. 4480 04:54:51.680 --> 04:54:56.439 You know, a lot of the post Marxist tradition was 4481 04:54:56.560 --> 04:54:59.520 a blend of Freud and Marx UH, and it was 4482 04:55:00.080 --> 04:55:06.200 taking up some of those ideas that really were compatible, 4483 04:55:09.639 --> 04:55:15.240 compatible as a sort of like radical communist polemic against uh, 4484 04:55:15.880 --> 04:55:22.080 you know, the the inherited tradition of Western society. But 4485 04:55:22.279 --> 04:55:28.439 Reich in particular used this sort of free wheeling sexuality 4486 04:55:28.799 --> 04:55:33.040 as as a as a foundation of his theorizing. It 4487 04:55:33.159 --> 04:55:35.520 was a it was a foundation of his polemic against 4488 04:55:36.840 --> 04:55:41.599 Christian sexual morality. I don't know that I read into 4489 04:55:41.720 --> 04:55:45.080 Freud that as much, although some of those quotes I 4490 04:55:45.159 --> 04:55:47.200 had not heard that about the plague before. So that's 4491 04:55:47.240 --> 04:55:49.520 the first time I'm hearing that, you tell me for 4492 04:55:49.560 --> 04:55:53.799 the first time. It's that is telling. And I think 4493 04:55:53.959 --> 04:55:59.400 it's undeniable that he had a conscious self concept as 4494 04:55:59.439 --> 04:56:05.119 a Jewish and interfacing with gentile society. But sometimes I 4495 04:56:05.279 --> 04:56:08.360 feel that he gets tarred a little bit too much. 4496 04:56:09.159 --> 04:56:09.799 Just a thought. 4497 04:56:14.840 --> 04:56:18.119 Just for those who are watching. There's a picture here 4498 04:56:18.720 --> 04:56:23.680 of Sigmund's grandson, Sir Clement Freud claiming is a British 4499 04:56:23.799 --> 04:56:26.720 MP pedophile, rapist, suspected murder of three year old girl 4500 04:56:26.840 --> 04:56:29.959 if you go to Wikipedia. All of these allegations were 4501 04:56:30.040 --> 04:56:33.680 made after his death, and I don't think anything could 4502 04:56:33.799 --> 04:56:40.680 be proven, but two or three women gave very similar accounts. 4503 04:56:40.759 --> 04:56:44.959 So just I know people who are watching this are 4504 04:56:45.040 --> 04:56:47.200 going to be like, Hey, what's that? What's that? So 4505 04:56:47.840 --> 04:56:50.639 all I can say is Clement Freud has a Wikipedia page, 4506 04:56:50.720 --> 04:56:52.599 and I'm sure if you want to go go down 4507 04:56:52.599 --> 04:56:56.880 a rabbit hole, all right? Part six. But a Brith 4508 04:56:57.040 --> 04:57:00.119 and the Roads of Fame by a Stuning CoInc and 4509 04:57:00.240 --> 04:57:03.000 Freud was initiated into the recently founded Bene Brith in 4510 04:57:03.080 --> 04:57:06.240 September eighteen ninety seven, precisely the time of his conversion 4511 04:57:06.319 --> 04:57:10.520 to the dogma of infantile sexuality. Dennis Klein writes in 4512 04:57:10.639 --> 04:57:13.720 chapter three of his book the Book The Prefiguring of 4513 04:57:13.720 --> 04:57:16.919 the Psychoanalytical movement Freud in the bene Breth that after 4514 04:57:17.000 --> 04:57:20.880 the bitter disappointment of being denied professorship, Freud filled through 4515 04:57:20.919 --> 04:57:24.040 the bena Breth the professional as well as the social vacuum. 4516 04:57:24.080 --> 04:57:26.639 In his life. He was a very active member, attending 4517 04:57:26.680 --> 04:57:29.880 almost every meeting. During the first decade his most productive years. 4518 04:57:30.560 --> 04:57:33.479 He recruited at least three members, and in nineteen oh 4519 04:57:33.560 --> 04:57:36.159 one was a founding father of a second lodge in Vienna, 4520 04:57:36.279 --> 04:57:39.000 the Harmony Lodge. The same year he gave a talk 4521 04:57:39.119 --> 04:57:43.720 on goals and purposes of the bene Breath Society. Freud 4522 04:57:43.799 --> 04:57:46.880 often presented his work to the benea Breath before publishing it. 4523 04:57:47.360 --> 04:57:50.400 In this respect, writes Klient, the Viennase bene Brith Lodge 4524 04:57:50.520 --> 04:57:54.119 was a precursor of the movement of psychoanalysis. After his 4525 04:57:54.240 --> 04:57:56.599 death in nineteen thirty nine, the bene Breth of Vienna 4526 04:57:56.720 --> 04:58:01.599 continued relentlessly the support granted during his lifetime to the 4527 04:58:01.680 --> 04:58:06.639 famous brother. To what extent where the bene Breath Masonic 4528 04:58:06.720 --> 04:58:10.319 meetings influential in Freud swing from the seduction theory to 4529 04:58:10.400 --> 04:58:13.520 the Oedipus theory. No one can say. However, we can 4530 04:58:13.599 --> 04:58:16.919 hold as fairly certain that Freud's membership in Nay Birth 4531 04:58:17.040 --> 04:58:20.319 was influential as becoming one of the major intellectual stars 4532 04:58:20.360 --> 04:58:26.599 and gurus of modernity. As a scientist, Freud was a failure, 4533 04:58:27.040 --> 04:58:30.720 duped by his own unconscious and unrealistic confidence that he 4534 04:58:30.799 --> 04:58:34.080 could solve the human enigma by self analysis alone. He 4535 04:58:34.240 --> 04:58:37.040 was also an impostor who, in his published case studies, 4536 04:58:37.119 --> 04:58:41.520 invented cures when there was none as investigations, as the 4537 04:58:41.599 --> 04:58:44.919 real biographies of his patients have shown true, he was 4538 04:58:45.000 --> 04:58:48.799 sometimes insightful, but the hagiographic image of Freud as a 4539 04:58:48.880 --> 04:58:53.439 discoverer of the unconscious is totally unwarranted, as Henri Ellenberger 4540 04:58:53.720 --> 04:58:57.159 has shown in his classic study The Discovery of the Unconscious, 4541 04:58:57.959 --> 04:59:01.240 quoting throughout the nineteenth century, there existed a well rounded 4542 04:59:01.319 --> 04:59:04.840 system of dynamic psychiatry. The basic features of the first 4543 04:59:04.919 --> 04:59:07.919 dynamic psychiatry were the use of hypnosis as an approach 4544 04:59:07.959 --> 04:59:12.040 to the unconscious mind, the interest in certain specific conditions 4545 04:59:12.119 --> 04:59:15.360 called magnetic diseases, the concept of a dual model of 4546 04:59:15.400 --> 04:59:18.200 the mind with a conscience with a conscious and an 4547 04:59:18.319 --> 04:59:22.599 unconscious ego, the belief in the psychogenesis of many emotional 4548 04:59:22.680 --> 04:59:26.599 and physical conditions, and the use of specific psychotherapeutic procedures. 4549 04:59:27.040 --> 04:59:30.479 The therapeutic channel was seen as being the rapport between 4550 04:59:30.560 --> 04:59:34.599 hypnotists and patient. The cultural impact of the first dynamic 4551 04:59:34.680 --> 04:59:40.479 psychiatry was far greater than is generally believed. It could 4552 04:59:40.479 --> 04:59:43.479 easily be argued that in matters of psychology, every sensible 4553 04:59:43.560 --> 04:59:46.040 thing that Freud said had been said before him, and 4554 04:59:46.119 --> 04:59:49.720 that almost everything he said hadn't been said before has 4555 04:59:49.840 --> 04:59:54.799 been proven wrong. So why did Freud become famous? The 4556 04:59:54.880 --> 04:59:57.000 long answer is that Freud benefited from the same kind 4557 04:59:57.040 --> 05:00:01.080 of communication networking that produced many other Jewish intellectual quote 4558 05:00:01.119 --> 05:00:06.040 unquote geniuses and made French novelists. Andre Guide comment in 4559 05:00:06.159 --> 05:00:09.959 nineteen fourteen in his diary about this tendency to constantly 4560 05:00:10.080 --> 05:00:14.360 emphasize the jew This predisposition to recognizing in him talent, 4561 05:00:14.560 --> 05:00:18.159 even genius. The shorter answers to the question above is 4562 05:00:18.439 --> 05:00:21.560 bene Breth. I will not suggest that the bene brit 4563 05:00:21.599 --> 05:00:24.759 supported Freud's Oedipus theory because they saw its potential for 4564 05:00:24.840 --> 05:00:27.159 the moral corruption of the West. Nor do I suggest 4565 05:00:27.200 --> 05:00:29.880 that the bena Breth and Freud conspired to ruin Western 4566 05:00:29.919 --> 05:00:40.040 civilization with at pest elential idea of infantile sexuality. But 4567 05:00:40.159 --> 05:00:43.479 I do suggest that had Freud maintained his earlier conviction 4568 05:00:43.599 --> 05:00:46.040 in the reality of the abuses suffered by the Jewish parents, 4569 05:00:46.520 --> 05:00:52.799 he would not received as much support, probably none. To 4570 05:00:52.919 --> 05:00:55.520 clarify this point, is it appropriate to recall a memorable 4571 05:00:55.560 --> 05:00:58.400 demonstration of power by the Bene Breth, which has an 4572 05:00:58.400 --> 05:01:02.360 obvious relevance to Freud's intelectual biography. In nineteen thirteen, the 4573 05:01:02.400 --> 05:01:05.599 Bene Birth created the antidefamation lead to save the life 4574 05:01:05.639 --> 05:01:08.720 and reputation of Leo Frank, the wealthy young president of 4575 05:01:08.759 --> 05:01:11.240 the Atlanta chapter of the Bena Brith, who was convicted 4576 05:01:11.279 --> 05:01:13.680 of the rape and murder of Mary Fagan, a thirteen 4577 05:01:13.759 --> 05:01:16.720 year old girl work in his pencil factory. The evidence 4578 05:01:16.759 --> 05:01:20.200 for Frank's guilt was overwhelming, but tremendous financial resources were 4579 05:01:20.240 --> 05:01:24.360 deployed for his legal defense, including false testimonies. An intense 4580 05:01:24.439 --> 05:01:28.720 publicity was orchestrated in the news media, with the New 4581 05:01:28.840 --> 05:01:32.680 York Times devoting enormous coverage to this case. I quote 4582 05:01:32.720 --> 05:01:37.599 from ron Uns's article, quoting for almost two years to 4583 05:01:37.680 --> 05:01:41.040 nearly limitless, funds deployed by Frank's supporters covered the cost 4584 05:01:41.119 --> 05:01:44.080 of thirteen separate appeals on the state and federal levels, 4585 05:01:44.439 --> 05:01:46.880 including to the US Supreme Court, while the national media 4586 05:01:47.000 --> 05:01:49.959 was used to endlessly vilify Georgia's system of justice in 4587 05:01:50.000 --> 05:01:54.240 the harsher's possible terms. Naturally, this soon generated a local reaction, 4588 05:01:54.400 --> 05:01:57.759 and during this period, outraged Georgians began denouncing the wealthy 4589 05:01:57.880 --> 05:02:00.520 Jews who were spending such enormous sums today subvert the 4590 05:02:00.599 --> 05:02:04.799 local criminal justice system. All appeals were ultimately rejected, and 4591 05:02:04.840 --> 05:02:07.599 Frank's execution date for the rape and murder of the 4592 05:02:07.680 --> 05:02:10.720 young girl finally drew near, But just days before he 4593 05:02:10.880 --> 05:02:15.520 was scheduled to leave office, Georgia's outgoing governor commuted Frank's sentence, 4594 05:02:15.759 --> 05:02:19.200 provoking an enormous storm of popular protests, especially since he 4595 05:02:19.319 --> 05:02:22.520 was legal partner of Frank's chief defense lawyer and obvious 4596 05:02:22.639 --> 05:02:25.520 conflict of interest. A few weeks later, a group of 4597 05:02:25.599 --> 05:02:30.520 Georgia citizens stormed Frank's prison farm, abducting and hanging him, 4598 05:02:30.840 --> 05:02:33.680 with Frank becoming the first and only Jew lynched in 4599 05:02:33.799 --> 05:02:39.759 American history. Thanks to the mobilization of the Jewish power elite, 4600 05:02:40.159 --> 05:02:43.240 as one man, Leo Frank had been turned from a 4601 05:02:43.279 --> 05:02:46.639 convicted pedophile and child murder into a martyr of antisemitism. 4602 05:02:47.200 --> 05:02:49.040 We don't know what Freud thought of this case, but 4603 05:02:49.159 --> 05:02:51.880 there is an obvious residence between his assaults on truth 4604 05:02:51.959 --> 05:02:55.240 and the Benet Brits. If young Mary Fagan had visited 4605 05:02:55.240 --> 05:02:58.400 a Freudian psychoanalyst before her atrocious death and complained of 4606 05:02:58.479 --> 05:03:01.400 her boss's sexual overtures, she probably would have been told 4607 05:03:01.439 --> 05:03:04.919 about her own penis envy. Had she protested, she would 4608 05:03:04.919 --> 05:03:07.680 have been told that her protest proved her sexual repression. 4609 05:03:08.279 --> 05:03:13.560 Exactly has happened to Freud's patience. Dora at a bower 4610 05:03:13.639 --> 05:03:16.200 by her real name, an eighteen year old girls suffering 4611 05:03:16.240 --> 05:03:25.319 from hysterical symptoms. I will say this, the KKK up 4612 05:03:25.439 --> 05:03:33.560 until this point really had no the Jewish question wasn't 4613 05:03:33.599 --> 05:03:38.880 really on their radar. This basically was a turn in 4614 05:03:38.959 --> 05:03:42.599 their organization. And actually at that point their organization had 4615 05:03:42.680 --> 05:03:49.000 weakened and this kind of woke them up. So yeah, 4616 05:03:49.799 --> 05:03:54.119 we see the Uh what happens when when Jewish power 4617 05:03:54.159 --> 05:03:59.319 and money goes to protect their own people doing who've 4618 05:03:59.360 --> 05:04:02.919 done something wrong or being accused of doing something wrong? 4619 05:04:03.439 --> 05:04:07.639 How other people just go wait a minute, let's start 4620 05:04:07.639 --> 05:04:13.799 asking some questions about this. So all right, part seven 4621 05:04:13.880 --> 05:04:17.599 the Isaac complex. The son's repressed wish to murder his 4622 05:04:17.680 --> 05:04:20.959 father is perhaps Freud's most fertile intuition. The problem is 4623 05:04:21.040 --> 05:04:24.319 with Freud's abuse of generalization. Only the neurotic son of 4624 05:04:24.360 --> 05:04:26.919 a destructive and manipulative father has a repressed wish to 4625 05:04:27.000 --> 05:04:30.639 kill the father. Freud discovered this impulse in himself and 4626 05:04:30.720 --> 05:04:33.520 confounding his own self analysis for a scientific quest of 4627 05:04:33.639 --> 05:04:37.119 universal laws, he projected it on all mankind. But the 4628 05:04:37.159 --> 05:04:40.319 fact that Freud's Jewish disciples all discovered the same impulse, 4629 05:04:40.400 --> 05:04:43.159 and that Freudian has and became so widely accepted by Jews, 4630 05:04:43.560 --> 05:04:48.000 suggest that Freud's generalization was not without merit. It only 4631 05:04:48.040 --> 05:04:51.040 suffered from the tendency of Jewish intellectuals to protect to 4632 05:04:51.159 --> 05:04:56.919 preject Jewish issues on all mankind. The child's repress wish 4633 05:04:57.000 --> 05:04:59.439 to kill his father is not universally human, but maybe 4634 05:04:59.560 --> 05:05:03.159 character Jewish. For the Jewish father is the guardian of 4635 05:05:03.240 --> 05:05:06.439 Jewishness and the representative of the Jewish God, and every 4636 05:05:06.520 --> 05:05:08.759 Jewish buyer is in the depth of his soul to 4637 05:05:08.799 --> 05:05:12.759 free himself from Yahweh, the archetypal abuse of incastrating father. 4638 05:05:13.560 --> 05:05:17.840 As Philip Brought's character Smilesberger says, in Operation Shylock to 4639 05:05:18.000 --> 05:05:21.439 appeal to a crazy, violent father, and for three thousand years, 4640 05:05:21.560 --> 05:05:24.639 that is what is to be a crazy Jew. And 4641 05:05:24.759 --> 05:05:27.080 so the secret wish to murder the Jewish Father is 4642 05:05:27.080 --> 05:05:29.360 also a secret wish for the death of the Jewish God. 4643 05:05:29.880 --> 05:05:32.360 It is therefore identical with the so called Jewish self 4644 05:05:32.400 --> 05:05:36.959 hatred that Theodore Lessing saw as affecting every Jew without exception. 4645 05:05:37.639 --> 05:05:39.400 There is not a single man of Jewish blood in 4646 05:05:39.439 --> 05:05:43.159 whom cannot be detected at least the beginning of Jewish 4647 05:05:43.240 --> 05:05:44.000 self hatred. 4648 05:05:45.560 --> 05:05:49.119 This also begs the makes me wonder again, like thinking 4649 05:05:49.319 --> 05:05:54.680 of his book From Moses to Monotheism, if we're taking 4650 05:05:54.880 --> 05:05:59.119 this point of view that Lorent is putting forth year, 4651 05:06:00.159 --> 05:06:05.520 maybe there's a vested interest in Freud wanting to complicate 4652 05:06:06.240 --> 05:06:12.840 or problematize the Jewish view of themselves as being the 4653 05:06:13.000 --> 05:06:17.759 first and only authentic monotheistic people. I mean, I do 4654 05:06:17.959 --> 05:06:20.520 think in that book he talked about Yahwehs being a 4655 05:06:20.599 --> 05:06:23.720 volcanic god. I mean, these are sort of things that 4656 05:06:24.080 --> 05:06:31.080 like contemporary comparative religious scholars sort of look at. Certainly 4657 05:06:31.080 --> 05:06:34.479 it's something anti Semites look at and say, hmm, this 4658 05:06:34.680 --> 05:06:39.360 is a particularistic god with the specific origin that reflects 4659 05:06:39.439 --> 05:06:42.319 an aspect of the Jewish psyche. And maybe it's not, 4660 05:06:42.599 --> 05:06:45.880 you know, the one true loving God of the Bible. 4661 05:06:46.000 --> 05:06:51.279 Blah blah blah. I mean, it's certainly interesting to turn 4662 05:06:51.439 --> 05:06:55.279 the psychoanalysis back on the psychoanalyst. That's always a fun 4663 05:06:55.319 --> 05:06:55.799 game to play. 4664 05:06:58.759 --> 05:07:01.360 We're almost done here, I guess we're going to finish 4665 05:07:01.400 --> 05:07:06.319 this up alrighty. By choosing a Greek myth as a 4666 05:07:06.400 --> 05:07:09.479 metaphor for his theory, Freud was projecting on Gentiles a 4667 05:07:09.560 --> 05:07:13.240 Jewish problem. Had he recognized the Jewish overtone of the complex, 4668 05:07:13.560 --> 05:07:16.439 he might have called it the Isaac complex, since Isaac 4669 05:07:16.560 --> 05:07:19.799 is the son that Abraham was willing to slaughter. The 4670 05:07:19.880 --> 05:07:24.080 expression The expression Isaac complex has actually been used by 4671 05:07:24.119 --> 05:07:28.639 French heterodox psychoanalyst Jean Pierre Fresco, who defines it as 4672 05:07:28.759 --> 05:07:31.639 the overall consequences of the son's psyche of a father 4673 05:07:31.840 --> 05:07:38.520 perceived as as psychologically menacing, destroying, or murderous. Fresco calls 4674 05:07:38.560 --> 05:07:42.319 such a father a Brahmic. He draws his insight from 4675 05:07:42.360 --> 05:07:46.159 a reading of Frantz Kofka's autobiographical and posthumously published Letter 4676 05:07:46.319 --> 05:07:49.919 to the Father, in which Kafka describes the devastating effect 4677 05:07:50.040 --> 05:07:53.759 on his personality of a father whose means of education 4678 05:07:54.000 --> 05:07:58.520 were abuse, threats, irony, spiteful laughter, and oddly enough, self pity. 4679 05:07:59.159 --> 05:08:02.479 Kafka also wrote to his father, my writing was all 4680 05:08:02.560 --> 05:08:06.279 about you. All I did there after all was to 4681 05:08:06.400 --> 05:08:08.919 be moan what I could not be moaned upon your breast. 4682 05:08:11.040 --> 05:08:14.639 Kafka's major novels refer autobiographically to his relationship with his 4683 05:08:14.759 --> 05:08:19.240 father and its deletarious psychic consequences. The Metamorphosis tells of 4684 05:08:19.279 --> 05:08:23.240 Gregor Sams's transformation into a repulsive insect, chased and killed 4685 05:08:23.279 --> 05:08:26.360 by his father, whose incestuous violence is suggested in the 4686 05:08:26.400 --> 05:08:28.680 scene where the father attacks his son from behind with 4687 05:08:28.759 --> 05:08:32.439 a cane, tapping his feet and pushing out sibilants like 4688 05:08:32.520 --> 05:08:35.880 a wild man. After the death of Gregor appears his 4689 05:08:36.000 --> 05:08:41.000 sister Greta, his double in the other sex, the homosexualized 4690 05:08:41.080 --> 05:08:46.240 son in the Verdict, George, anagram of Gregor, has just 4691 05:08:46.360 --> 05:08:50.720 become engaged with Frieda Brandenfeld same initials as Felice Bauer, 4692 05:08:50.799 --> 05:08:53.720 the woman who Kafka had just started dating, and announces 4693 05:08:53.759 --> 05:08:56.680 it to his father. The father opposes a terrible prohibition 4694 05:08:56.840 --> 05:09:00.360 to this project of marriage, accompanied by extreme narcissistic biolence. 4695 05:09:00.840 --> 05:09:04.400 The paternal prohibition of emancipation through marriage is linked to 4696 05:09:04.400 --> 05:09:10.200 an incestuous domination that becomes clear when George submissively proposes 4697 05:09:10.240 --> 05:09:13.639 to the father to exchange beds. Fresco also finds a 4698 05:09:14.200 --> 05:09:17.279 psychic trace of the father in Kofgo's novel The Trial, 4699 05:09:17.599 --> 05:09:21.520 whose narrator Joseph Kay was arrested without knowing who slandered 4700 05:09:21.599 --> 05:09:25.680 him nor who will judge him. According to Fresco, this 4701 05:09:25.840 --> 05:09:31.639 incomprehensible and omnipotent slanderer accuser judge is the palympicist, the 4702 05:09:31.799 --> 05:09:38.840 polympicist of an archaic Abrahamic father, unconsciously introjected as an 4703 05:09:39.000 --> 05:09:44.279 archaic and sadistic super ego and turned into an inner prosecutor. 4704 05:09:47.040 --> 05:09:49.599 I find it significant that Kafka, by his own omission, 4705 05:09:49.680 --> 05:09:51.840 drew his inspiration from his experience as the son of 4706 05:09:51.880 --> 05:09:55.240 a psychopathic father, while whose Jewish literary critics consider him 4707 05:09:55.319 --> 05:10:00.919 quintessentially Jewish, by common consents that Harold Kafka is not 4708 05:10:01.040 --> 05:10:04.119 only the strongest modern Jewish writer, but the Jewish writer. 4709 05:10:05.639 --> 05:10:09.840 Hence Israel's long decade long legal battle to secure his 4710 05:10:09.959 --> 05:10:13.599 autograph manuscripts as national treasure. Who is right of Kafka 4711 05:10:13.720 --> 05:10:16.759 and his critics? Does his genius come from being Jewish 4712 05:10:17.159 --> 05:10:20.360 or from having a psychopathic father? Obviously it is impossible 4713 05:10:20.400 --> 05:10:24.119 to distinguish the two factors. Because the psychopathic father happens 4714 05:10:24.159 --> 05:10:27.599 to be Jewish, he is, in Fresco's terms, the typical 4715 05:10:27.680 --> 05:10:30.639 a Brahmic father. But are not all Jewish fathers of 4716 05:10:30.720 --> 05:10:34.000 Brahmik in the measures of their jewishness? Is not the 4717 05:10:34.080 --> 05:10:37.360 Jewish God a psychopathic father, and the psychopathic father of 4718 05:10:37.400 --> 05:10:42.959 a Jewish god. Kafka perceived his sadistic father as a 4719 05:10:43.000 --> 05:10:46.959 cruel divinity whose laws were totally arbitrary and yet unquestionable, 4720 05:10:47.520 --> 05:10:50.000 just like the Jewish God. For me, as a child, 4721 05:10:50.119 --> 05:10:53.680 everything you called out to me was positively a heavenly commandment, 4722 05:10:53.759 --> 05:10:57.479 he wrote in his Letters to the Father. From your armchair, 4723 05:10:57.560 --> 05:11:00.200 you ruled the world. Your opinion was correct. Every other 4724 05:11:00.360 --> 05:11:04.439 was mad, wild with sugar, not normal. Your self confidence, 4725 05:11:04.520 --> 05:11:06.799 indeed was so great that you had no need to 4726 05:11:07.759 --> 05:11:10.279 be consistent at all, and yet never ceased to be right, 4727 05:11:11.200 --> 05:11:14.919 quoting Hence the world was for me divided into three parts. 4728 05:11:15.040 --> 05:11:17.919 One in which I, the slave, lived under laws that 4729 05:11:18.040 --> 05:11:20.400 had been invented only for me, and which I could 4730 05:11:20.680 --> 05:11:23.919 I did not know why never completely comply with. Then 4731 05:11:23.959 --> 05:11:26.599 a second world which was infinitely remote from mine, in 4732 05:11:26.639 --> 05:11:29.439 which you lived, concerned with government, with the issuing of 4733 05:11:29.639 --> 05:11:33.360 orders and the annoyance about their not being obeyed. And finally, 4734 05:11:33.400 --> 05:11:36.400 a third world, which everybody else lived happily and free 4735 05:11:36.479 --> 05:11:39.639 from orders and from having to obey. I was continually 4736 05:11:39.680 --> 05:11:42.240 in disgrace. Either I obeyed your orders, and that was 4737 05:11:42.279 --> 05:11:44.919 a disgrace, for they applied, after all, only to me. 4738 05:11:45.639 --> 05:11:47.919 Or I was defiant, and this was a disgrace too, 4739 05:11:48.119 --> 05:11:51.319 for how could I presume to defy you? And I 4740 05:11:51.360 --> 05:11:53.799 could not obey because I did not, for instance, have 4741 05:11:53.919 --> 05:11:57.479 your strength, your appetite, your skill, although you expected it 4742 05:11:57.680 --> 05:12:00.200 of me as a matter of course. This was the 4743 05:12:00.240 --> 05:12:10.159 greatest disgrace of all. I mean, this is I was, 4744 05:12:10.279 --> 05:12:12.680 as I was reading this section right here, the quoted section, 4745 05:12:13.159 --> 05:12:14.159 I was just thinking of. 4746 05:12:16.040 --> 05:12:16.080 E. 4747 05:12:16.159 --> 05:12:20.319 Michael Jones, a Jewish revolutionary spirit, where I mean, he's 4748 05:12:20.400 --> 05:12:25.639 just basically he's revolting against everything around him, and all 4749 05:12:25.720 --> 05:12:28.799 he wants to do is just be it seems like 4750 05:12:29.040 --> 05:12:33.599 just be a solo man where the only the only 4751 05:12:33.680 --> 05:12:35.360 person he has to answer to is himself. 4752 05:12:36.720 --> 05:12:41.319 I don't know, Yeah, that that that sort of radical 4753 05:12:41.400 --> 05:12:45.520 individualistic streak does seem to be kind of characteristically Jewish. 4754 05:12:48.240 --> 05:12:52.159 Yeah, And it's a it's been pushed upon us, upon 4755 05:12:52.279 --> 05:12:55.880 this culture, upon America and you know what used to 4756 05:12:55.959 --> 05:13:01.080 be the West for one hundred years now it's a 4757 05:13:02.639 --> 05:13:05.520 you know, it's seen as a virtue. And if you 4758 05:13:07.279 --> 05:13:11.720 go against that individualism, you're a communist, which is ironic 4759 05:13:11.840 --> 05:13:18.880 considering where both of those ideas came from. Right, yeah, right. 4760 05:13:19.040 --> 05:13:21.959 Part eight, and this is the last part, the trauma 4761 05:13:22.080 --> 05:13:26.799 of eight days circumcision. After all, the Abrahamic father is 4762 05:13:26.840 --> 05:13:30.759 the executioner of the commandment given to Abraham. As soon 4763 05:13:30.799 --> 05:13:32.720 as he is eight days old, every one of your 4764 05:13:32.759 --> 05:13:37.119 male's generation after generation must be circumcised. Had Freud preserved 4765 05:13:37.159 --> 05:13:41.119 his original insight into the psychological damage of sexual abuse 4766 05:13:41.200 --> 05:13:45.319 on children, he might have eventually reflected on the impact 4767 05:13:45.360 --> 05:13:49.279 of neonatal circumcision, but he has been rather discrete on 4768 05:13:49.360 --> 05:13:52.400 the subject. Though he didn't have his own sons circumcised, 4769 05:13:53.040 --> 05:13:56.119 he broaches in his later books, but only in the 4770 05:13:56.200 --> 05:14:01.799 context of anthropological speculations. In New Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis, 4771 05:14:01.840 --> 05:14:06.799 he speculated that during the human family's primeval period, castration 4772 05:14:07.080 --> 05:14:09.159 used to be carried out by a jealous and cruel 4773 05:14:09.200 --> 05:14:12.880 father upon growing boys, and that circumcision, which so frequently 4774 05:14:12.919 --> 05:14:15.799 plays a part in puberty rights among primitive people, is 4775 05:14:15.880 --> 05:14:19.599 a clearly recognizable relic of it. Freud went further in 4776 05:14:20.400 --> 05:14:25.919 Moses and Monotheism, circumcision is the symbolic substitute of castration, 4777 05:14:26.159 --> 05:14:29.639 a punishment which the primeval father dealt his sons long 4778 05:14:29.720 --> 05:14:33.000 ago out of an awfulness of his power. And whosoever 4779 05:14:33.159 --> 05:14:36.200 accepted this symbol showed by so doing that he was 4780 05:14:36.279 --> 05:14:39.200 ready to submit to his father's will, although it was 4781 05:14:39.240 --> 05:14:46.200 at the cost of a painful sacrifice. Interestingly, Freud originally 4782 05:14:46.240 --> 05:14:49.119 got that idea from Sandor Ferenci, who had written an 4783 05:14:49.279 --> 05:14:52.560 article that greatly impressed Freud, that circumcision as a means 4784 05:14:52.560 --> 05:14:56.159 of inspiring terror a symbol of castration by the father. 4785 05:15:00.119 --> 05:15:02.639 We note that in the above quotations, Freud isn't referring 4786 05:15:02.680 --> 05:15:06.000 to Jewish circ circumcision of eight day children, only to 4787 05:15:06.119 --> 05:15:10.000 circumcision of adolescent boys. Given the Jewish undercurrent of Freud's 4788 05:15:10.000 --> 05:15:13.040 intellectual biography. It is reasonable to assume that his inability 4789 05:15:13.080 --> 05:15:17.119 to deal with the issue of Jewish neonatal circumcision is 4790 05:15:17.200 --> 05:15:20.040 connected to his refusal to face the devastating reality of 4791 05:15:20.159 --> 05:15:23.720 child abuse. Isn't the first abuse suffered by every Jewish 4792 05:15:23.759 --> 05:15:26.479 male that part of his parents and kin's circumcision on 4793 05:15:26.599 --> 05:15:30.279 the eighth day, It physically impresses on every Jew and 4794 05:15:30.400 --> 05:15:34.479 on all Jews collectively, the traumatic domination of Yahweh and 4795 05:15:34.560 --> 05:15:42.400 his covenants. The psychological impact of neonatal circumcision performed without 4796 05:15:42.400 --> 05:15:45.720 anesthesia and causing unbearable pain has been studied by Professor 4797 05:15:45.799 --> 05:15:49.560 Ronald Goldman, author of Circumcision The Hidden Trauma. His research 4798 05:15:49.639 --> 05:15:52.639 shows a disturbance in the mother child bonding process after 4799 05:15:52.720 --> 05:15:56.799 the ritual. Testimonies from mothers who observe circumcisions show that 4800 05:15:56.880 --> 05:15:59.680 the mother's guilt is also part of the equation. Here 4801 05:15:59.799 --> 05:16:03.439 is from Elizabeth Pickard Ginsburg. I don't feel I can 4802 05:16:03.520 --> 05:16:05.799 recover from it. We had this beautiful baby boy in 4803 05:16:05.919 --> 05:16:09.479 seven beautiful days, and this beautiful rhythm starting, and it 4804 05:16:09.599 --> 05:16:12.840 was like something had been shattered. When he was first born. 4805 05:16:12.919 --> 05:16:15.080 There was a tie with my young one, my newborn, 4806 05:16:15.200 --> 05:16:17.720 and when the circumcision happened, in order to allow it, 4807 05:16:18.119 --> 05:16:20.959 I had to cut off the bond. I had to 4808 05:16:21.040 --> 05:16:23.200 cut off my natural instincts, and in doing so, I 4809 05:16:23.279 --> 05:16:26.000 cut off a lot of feelings towards Jesse. I cut 4810 05:16:26.040 --> 05:16:27.840 it off to repress the pain and to repress the 4811 05:16:27.959 --> 05:16:35.159 natural instinct to stop the circumcision. The unnatural, incestuous wish 4812 05:16:35.279 --> 05:16:37.919 that Freud and his Jewish male disciples discovered in their 4813 05:16:37.959 --> 05:16:42.240 repressed unconscious could perhaps be explained as a result of 4814 05:16:42.279 --> 05:16:46.400 the inhibition in mother child bonding caused by the trauma 4815 05:16:46.479 --> 05:16:49.880 of neonatal circumcision, a trauma cause at this age has 4816 05:16:49.959 --> 05:16:52.439 little chance to ever be brought back into consciousness and 4817 05:16:52.520 --> 05:16:55.319 be healed. More research is perhaps needed on the possible 4818 05:16:55.360 --> 05:16:59.639 link between Jewish circumcision and the fact that, according to 4819 05:16:59.840 --> 05:17:03.319 the nineteen oh six Uish Encyclopedia, that the Jews are 4820 05:17:03.360 --> 05:17:05.959 more subject to diseases of the nervous system than the 4821 05:17:06.080 --> 05:17:10.240 other races and peoples among which they dwell. Research done 4822 05:17:10.279 --> 05:17:13.720 by sociologists Leo Stroll in nineteen sixty two show that 4823 05:17:13.759 --> 05:17:17.040 the rate of neuroses and character disorders among Jews was 4824 05:17:17.040 --> 05:17:21.080 about three times higher three times as high among Catholics 4825 05:17:21.240 --> 05:17:26.919 and Protestants. In the Future of an Illusion, Sigmund Freud 4826 05:17:27.000 --> 05:17:32.959 describes religion, meaning essentially Christianity, as universal obsessional neurosis, which 4827 05:17:33.000 --> 05:17:36.000 has for believers the merit that their acceptance of the 4828 05:17:36.080 --> 05:17:41.119 universal neuroses spares them the task of constructing a personal one. 4829 05:17:41.759 --> 05:17:44.279 With a similar approach, Judaism can be described as a 4830 05:17:44.319 --> 05:17:49.840 collective sociopathy. That does not mean that the Jews are sociopaths, 4831 05:17:50.040 --> 05:17:52.599 but rather that, in proportion to the degree of their 4832 05:17:52.680 --> 05:17:56.319 identification as Jews, they are victims of a sociopathic mindset 4833 05:17:56.720 --> 05:18:00.520 patterned from the Tanak marked in their flesh, impressed traumatically 4834 05:18:00.919 --> 05:18:05.639 in their subconscious by circumcision, and fuel by their elites 4835 05:18:05.919 --> 05:18:10.080 with the paranoia of anti Semitism. The difference between collective 4836 05:18:10.119 --> 05:18:16.279 sociopathy and individual sociopathy is the same as between collective 4837 05:18:16.360 --> 05:18:20.520 neurosis and individual neurosis. According to Freud, participation in a 4838 05:18:20.560 --> 05:18:26.080 collective sociopathic mentality allows members of the community to channel 4839 05:18:26.200 --> 05:18:30.360 sociopathic tendencies towards the outside of the community and to 4840 05:18:30.479 --> 05:18:34.759 maintain inside a high degree of associability. 4841 05:18:36.400 --> 05:18:40.360 So I'm thinking, especially in the light of those last 4842 05:18:40.400 --> 05:18:44.680 two sections. If you look at a lot of if 4843 05:18:44.680 --> 05:18:48.040 you look at some of the other classic Freudian concepts, 4844 05:18:48.840 --> 05:18:54.279 some of his defense mechanisms, even his tripartite model of 4845 05:18:55.159 --> 05:19:02.080 human consciousness, to d the ego, the super egos. I mean, 4846 05:19:02.200 --> 05:19:05.000 this is one of the reasons, going through my education, 4847 05:19:05.200 --> 05:19:07.560 but also just reflecting on it throughout my life, I 4848 05:19:07.720 --> 05:19:11.159 never really considered myself a Freudian was because I never 4849 05:19:11.319 --> 05:19:17.560 felt in my own experience as a thinking person any 4850 05:19:17.680 --> 05:19:21.919 identification with or recognition of some of these things that 4851 05:19:22.040 --> 05:19:26.400 he treated as sort of paramount to the human experience. So, 4852 05:19:27.880 --> 05:19:30.119 you know, the idea of a super ego as this 4853 05:19:30.400 --> 05:19:37.400 sort of crushing mental tyrant, urging you into conformity. I mean, 4854 05:19:37.599 --> 05:19:41.000 that sounds a lot more like how Lourent Goynott talks 4855 05:19:41.040 --> 05:19:46.799 about the relationship that Jewish men, Jews in particular, feel 4856 05:19:47.560 --> 05:19:51.279 towards Yahweh and the desire to overthrow the Father, to 4857 05:19:52.959 --> 05:20:00.240 set themselves up as a sort of authoritarian guy of 4858 05:20:00.319 --> 05:20:02.919 one type or another. I mean, that is what the 4859 05:20:03.040 --> 05:20:05.520 super ego is and his conception, and that's sort of 4860 05:20:05.680 --> 05:20:10.080 what you know, a certain like anti Semitic reading of 4861 05:20:10.479 --> 05:20:14.159 the God of the Old Bible looks like and I 4862 05:20:14.240 --> 05:20:17.240 don't know too many gentiles my whole life who really 4863 05:20:18.040 --> 05:20:21.439 necessarily had a problem with like I mean, there's an 4864 05:20:21.520 --> 05:20:25.319 extent to which, you know, nobody likes to be told 4865 05:20:25.360 --> 05:20:27.840 what to do, and at some point in life we're 4866 05:20:27.840 --> 05:20:30.159 all like shaking our fist against the man or whatever. 4867 05:20:30.560 --> 05:20:34.919 But this sort of like deep seated, for lack of 4868 05:20:35.000 --> 05:20:43.639 a better word, pathological relationship with authority or conformity. I mean, 4869 05:20:44.000 --> 05:20:46.520 most of the guy I mean, I grew up middle 4870 05:20:46.560 --> 05:20:48.360 class for the most part, so most of the people 4871 05:20:48.439 --> 05:20:51.200 I knew like never had a problem with conformity so 4872 05:20:51.360 --> 05:20:57.680 long as the nature of the authority was acceptable or justifiable. 4873 05:20:58.200 --> 05:21:02.200 And you see a certain and streak in like these 4874 05:21:02.279 --> 05:21:05.840 more radical Jewish intellectuals, where there there literally is no 4875 05:21:06.119 --> 05:21:10.759 standard that they will subject themselves to and and many 4876 05:21:11.000 --> 05:21:16.560 Jewish philosophies are entirely based on this idea that I 4877 05:21:16.720 --> 05:21:20.319 am my own measure and how dare you? This is 4878 05:21:20.360 --> 05:21:24.680 almost like like is his name, Dave Portnoy from Barstool Sports. 4879 05:21:25.119 --> 05:21:28.759 It's like he's like almost a good representation of this, 4880 05:21:29.080 --> 05:21:32.840 Like fuck you, there is literally no standard I will 4881 05:21:32.919 --> 05:21:36.400 accept because that standard is external to myself and that 4882 05:21:36.520 --> 05:21:42.000 is so dysfunctional. Uh and and Lorenz says at the end, sociopathic. 4883 05:21:42.400 --> 05:21:46.319 I mean you literally can't build a society. You can't 4884 05:21:46.400 --> 05:21:50.680 build a community around a type of masculine psychology that 4885 05:21:50.840 --> 05:21:59.720 simply categorically rejects any other and any other responsibility to 4886 05:22:00.520 --> 05:22:03.639 beyond itself. I have some other thoughts. I don't know 4887 05:22:03.639 --> 05:22:07.799 if you want to respond to that. No, keep going, 4888 05:22:08.919 --> 05:22:11.599 So I mean the other thing that so, the other 4889 05:22:11.680 --> 05:22:15.000 thing that Freud is well known for putting forth are 4890 05:22:15.400 --> 05:22:24.040 this sort of comprehensive list of defense mechanisms, some of which, 4891 05:22:24.439 --> 05:22:27.840 like frankly like never made sense to me. Part of 4892 05:22:27.880 --> 05:22:31.000 the reason why I struggled to really embrace my career 4893 05:22:31.000 --> 05:22:34.000 as a psychologists because it was like, some of these 4894 05:22:34.279 --> 05:22:36.720 these are supposed to be foundational ideas, and it's like 4895 05:22:36.840 --> 05:22:40.159 I don't really see them reflected in other people. I 4896 05:22:40.200 --> 05:22:42.799 don't really see them in myself. So, like, for example, 4897 05:22:44.840 --> 05:22:53.759 reaction formation and sublimation. These are psychological defense mechanisms that 4898 05:22:53.919 --> 05:22:58.520 actually make a lot more sense if you're assuming that 4899 05:22:58.639 --> 05:23:04.840 it's a sort of group outsider group strategy in a 4900 05:23:05.520 --> 05:23:11.080 hostile society. So the idea of reaction formation is that 4901 05:23:11.240 --> 05:23:14.200 you behave in a way that is the opposite of 4902 05:23:14.439 --> 05:23:18.119 how you feel, or is the opposite of your natural inclination. 4903 05:23:18.759 --> 05:23:23.919 And maybe if you are sort of like maybe like 4904 05:23:24.000 --> 05:23:30.680 Freud potentially was, where you just simply bristol at the 4905 05:23:30.919 --> 05:23:35.360 norms and the expectations that the society around you expects 4906 05:23:35.360 --> 05:23:38.560 you to conform to, that you have to go through 4907 05:23:38.639 --> 05:23:43.200 this sort of tortured psychological transformation where you're taking your 4908 05:23:43.319 --> 05:23:46.360 native sort of again, if we want to invoke e. 4909 05:23:46.479 --> 05:23:49.439 Michael Jones, if you have a sort of like radical 4910 05:23:49.560 --> 05:23:55.200 transgressive impulse, but you necessarily have to function in a 4911 05:23:55.279 --> 05:23:59.360 society that will not tolerate that. And I don't know 4912 05:23:59.400 --> 05:24:02.680 about you. I didn't go around as a kid like 4913 05:24:02.840 --> 05:24:05.599 necessarily feeling like I had to flip everyone the bird 4914 05:24:06.119 --> 05:24:10.279 and flip over every table and piss in everyone's cheerios. 4915 05:24:10.560 --> 05:24:13.279 I mean I had youthful vigor. I think every young 4916 05:24:13.360 --> 05:24:16.520 man growing up has like a certain like desire to 4917 05:24:17.159 --> 05:24:20.840 impress themselves upon the environment around them. But to the 4918 05:24:20.959 --> 05:24:24.520 degree where you like are constantly like foaming at the 4919 05:24:24.639 --> 05:24:27.479 mouth with like I can't be the way they want 4920 05:24:27.520 --> 05:24:30.119 me to be. I refuse to do anything they want 4921 05:24:30.159 --> 05:24:32.599 me to do. I hate them, and yet I've got 4922 05:24:32.639 --> 05:24:36.799 to I've got to abide by them anyway, like reaction formation, 4923 05:24:36.919 --> 05:24:42.759 where you've got a there's a fundamental dissonance between your 4924 05:24:42.840 --> 05:24:48.759 behaviors and your actual internal experience. That doesn't I feel 4925 05:24:48.759 --> 05:24:51.360 like you don't really see that. Some of the places 4926 05:24:51.439 --> 05:24:55.799 you do see that are frankly like pathological work environments, 4927 05:24:56.159 --> 05:25:00.319 you know, the like you see them really you kind 4928 05:25:00.319 --> 05:25:04.479 of only see them in this sort of post Jewish 4929 05:25:05.159 --> 05:25:10.200 privileged world where everything is sort of remade and reformed 4930 05:25:10.680 --> 05:25:16.119 to conform to a sort of Jewish morality. That I mean, yeah, 4931 05:25:16.200 --> 05:25:18.319 when I go to my if I have my office 4932 05:25:18.400 --> 05:25:21.880 job and I hate my deiboss, and I have to 4933 05:25:22.000 --> 05:25:24.560 smile at him even though I'm cursing under my breath, 4934 05:25:24.680 --> 05:25:28.080 like you don't. I mean, that's that makes sense. But 4935 05:25:28.599 --> 05:25:31.560 then again, it's like the same framework, like you are 4936 05:25:31.680 --> 05:25:35.880 an outsider. You are sort of a marginalized person in 4937 05:25:36.000 --> 05:25:39.240 this existing ecosystem, and you've got to find a way 4938 05:25:39.279 --> 05:25:46.880 to navigate it. Sublimation is another one, channeling unacceptable impulses 4939 05:25:46.919 --> 05:25:52.439 into socially acceptable activities. I mean, doesn't that describe tikon Oleum. 4940 05:25:53.040 --> 05:25:56.119 It's like it's like I got into this argument with 4941 05:25:57.439 --> 05:26:00.639 this Jewish woman on Twitter the other day. She's like 4942 05:26:00.720 --> 05:26:04.400 one of these not to get all inside baseball Twitter 4943 05:26:04.520 --> 05:26:07.639 micro communities on you and your audience. But she was 4944 05:26:08.119 --> 05:26:11.560 part of this like Hegelian egirl thing that was like 4945 05:26:11.680 --> 05:26:16.080 a very minor social media thing a year ago. And 4946 05:26:16.200 --> 05:26:21.279 she's an ethnically Jewish woman but a devout Christian. And 4947 05:26:21.439 --> 05:26:25.159 over the course of this conversation, she's basically you know, 4948 05:26:26.520 --> 05:26:31.000 she's being provoked because she's she's she put up this 4949 05:26:31.119 --> 05:26:35.080 post where she said how much she hates German people 4950 05:26:35.279 --> 05:26:39.919 and that she confused considers them a inferior people, and 4951 05:26:40.040 --> 05:26:42.159 she prays to God for forgiveness and she prais it 4952 05:26:42.279 --> 05:26:46.919 the Germans prayer to God for forgiveness too. It's like, Okay, 4953 05:26:48.000 --> 05:26:54.439 if you have these sort of tortured reactions to the 4954 05:26:54.560 --> 05:27:02.119 world around you that you are trying to make acceptable 4955 05:27:02.159 --> 05:27:04.959 to those around you, like, isn't that like isn't that 4956 05:27:05.159 --> 05:27:07.720 what Tikon Olham was? Because she's basically saying, like, I'm 4957 05:27:07.720 --> 05:27:09.720 a really good Christian because I want to bring about 4958 05:27:09.799 --> 05:27:13.319 this Christian eschatology, And isn't that really the same thing 4959 05:27:13.360 --> 05:27:17.599 as Tikon Olham Isn't there no difference between Christ coming 4960 05:27:17.720 --> 05:27:20.720 back to Earth and also I'm going to destroy all 4961 05:27:20.759 --> 05:27:24.479 your icons and overturn all of your world orders. It's like, actually, 4962 05:27:24.520 --> 05:27:27.360 I think there is a fundamental difference between what the 4963 05:27:27.439 --> 05:27:31.360 return of Christ means versus I'm literally going to destroy 4964 05:27:31.599 --> 05:27:38.599 every representation of gentile society that exists around you. When 4965 05:27:38.639 --> 05:27:41.520 you look at these, you know, the history of Jewish 4966 05:27:41.560 --> 05:27:47.599 intellectuals driving civil rights legislation or DEI or woke or whatever. 4967 05:27:48.279 --> 05:27:52.680 What are they doing if not masking their sort of 4968 05:27:53.119 --> 05:28:01.159 radical transgressive spirit via a asking it with this sort 4969 05:28:01.159 --> 05:28:09.159 of like liberal Christian morality or this liberal Enlightenment value systems. 4970 05:28:09.360 --> 05:28:12.360 It's actually difficult to look at some of these Freudian 4971 05:28:12.439 --> 05:28:18.599 ideas and not see them as dressed up vehicles for 4972 05:28:19.319 --> 05:28:20.720 basically Jewish impulses. 4973 05:28:24.400 --> 05:28:32.400 Well, it's if you believe in the authoritarian personality. The 4974 05:28:32.439 --> 05:28:36.360 book from nineteen forty nine nineteen fifty commissioned by the 4975 05:28:36.439 --> 05:28:40.520 jew American Jewish Committee, put out by Adorno and the 4976 05:28:40.599 --> 05:28:46.119 Frankfurt School, which basically lays out how to destroy Anglo 4977 05:28:46.279 --> 05:28:51.840 society so that they'll never be fascism again. All of 4978 05:28:51.919 --> 05:28:56.000 this makes sense because if Jews are going to be 4979 05:28:56.240 --> 05:28:59.880 safe and no longer persecuted. You're either going to have 4980 05:29:00.159 --> 05:29:05.040 to turn the population into Jews, like instill Jewish values, 4981 05:29:05.200 --> 05:29:12.599 those Jewish values, you know of basically chaos of rebellion 4982 05:29:12.680 --> 05:29:22.040 against everything that historically Anglo Europeans held deer. You're either 4983 05:29:22.080 --> 05:29:24.479 going to have to do that or you're going to 4984 05:29:24.560 --> 05:29:27.360 have to figure out a way to sedate them, you know, 4985 05:29:27.439 --> 05:29:32.919 with pornography and and basically attack everything. And then you know, 4986 05:29:33.080 --> 05:29:35.840 in the end, if they start fighting back, then you 4987 05:29:36.040 --> 05:29:40.919 make it. You make antisemitism illegal, You start you know, 4988 05:29:41.319 --> 05:29:45.000 persecuting people who are you know, starting to ask the 4989 05:29:45.119 --> 05:29:48.240 Jewish question. And I mean, I think that's like the 4990 05:29:48.520 --> 05:29:52.040 last hundred years is pretty much a picture of that 4991 05:29:52.759 --> 05:29:59.560 of tkamol On basically destroying seeking to destroy Western culture 4992 05:30:00.240 --> 05:30:02.520 so that Jews can fit in, so that they can 4993 05:30:02.599 --> 05:30:06.319 blend in. So basically now everybody is, everybody has is 4994 05:30:06.439 --> 05:30:13.119 carrying their ideals. But also you know, they don't seem 4995 05:30:13.959 --> 05:30:17.279 as the outsider anymore, because that's been the problem. You know, 4996 05:30:17.319 --> 05:30:19.759 that was the problem in Russia. The problem in Russia 4997 05:30:19.959 --> 05:30:25.200 was it was like you had gigantic diaspora German you know, 4998 05:30:25.599 --> 05:30:28.720 in the in the seventeen eighteen hundreds, you had German 4999 05:30:29.479 --> 05:30:34.880 populations in Ukraine and they were thriving and they you know, 5000 05:30:35.000 --> 05:30:38.680 the Czar's leadership loved them. But then you had this 5001 05:30:38.880 --> 05:30:42.119 other group that just stuck out like a sore thumb 5002 05:30:42.240 --> 05:30:46.439 because they were so different than everyone else, and whenever 5003 05:30:46.520 --> 05:30:48.360 you tried to deal with them, it was like, no, 5004 05:30:48.599 --> 05:30:52.360 we have to remain different. And then when laws were 5005 05:30:52.479 --> 05:30:55.400 changed and the stettle was broken, the schettle system was 5006 05:30:55.439 --> 05:31:00.000 broken up, it was just this reaction of trying to 5007 05:31:00.240 --> 05:31:04.360 push back against that, trying to trying to keep your traditions, 5008 05:31:04.840 --> 05:31:07.799 but also this group of people who are escaping from 5009 05:31:08.240 --> 05:31:11.319 their traditions and they're like, Okay, now I can do 5010 05:31:11.520 --> 05:31:14.560 anything I want. And in order for me to be 5011 05:31:14.599 --> 05:31:16.680 able to do anything I want, I have to basically 5012 05:31:16.840 --> 05:31:20.080 create a world where people can do anything they want. 5013 05:31:21.560 --> 05:31:23.799 I mean, that's that's what it seems like to me. 5014 05:31:23.959 --> 05:31:27.279 That's of all the reading I've done, you know, two 5015 05:31:27.360 --> 05:31:33.479 hundred years together, Jews in the Economic Life by Sombart Shahaks, 5016 05:31:33.599 --> 05:31:38.279 Jewish History, Jewish Religion, You Gentiles, Maurice Samuels, it just 5017 05:31:38.400 --> 05:31:42.319 basically seems like the it's like we were this people 5018 05:31:42.680 --> 05:31:46.000 were these people who've always been on the outside. We 5019 05:31:46.319 --> 05:31:49.119 are always going to be on the outside. So we 5020 05:31:49.240 --> 05:31:52.799 have to create a society that looks like us, so 5021 05:31:52.919 --> 05:31:57.159 that we're no longer you know, we're no longer persecuted, 5022 05:31:57.639 --> 05:32:01.159 we're no longer seen as the outsider. And then you 5023 05:32:01.279 --> 05:32:03.360 throw into the fact that they get their own country 5024 05:32:03.400 --> 05:32:05.599 and they have nuclear weapons, and then that's a whole 5025 05:32:05.639 --> 05:32:07.040 different discussion. 5026 05:32:09.080 --> 05:32:17.159 It's sort of like an impossible mission to set out upon, because, 5027 05:32:17.200 --> 05:32:21.319 as Laurent mentions towards the end of this essay, the 5028 05:32:22.319 --> 05:32:28.479 sort of self persecuting tendency within Jewish society. I mean, 5029 05:32:28.720 --> 05:32:34.680 we're living now in the most judaized version of the 5030 05:32:34.799 --> 05:32:38.680 United States that has ever existed, and the sense of 5031 05:32:38.840 --> 05:32:44.799 these people as being persecuted seems like it's more pronounced. 5032 05:32:45.319 --> 05:32:48.000 It's certainly more pronounced than in my forty years on 5033 05:32:48.080 --> 05:32:51.279 this planet or my twenty five years odd as a 5034 05:32:51.400 --> 05:32:57.880 thinking adult aware of global dynamics. I mean, they didn't 5035 05:32:57.919 --> 05:33:01.040 have this same oh my god, we're on the precipice 5036 05:33:01.080 --> 05:33:04.720 of Hitler two attitude in the nineteen nineties. They didn't 5037 05:33:04.759 --> 05:33:08.560 have it in the two thousands. It only started to 5038 05:33:08.639 --> 05:33:11.639 creep up in the twenty tens, now that we're halfway 5039 05:33:11.720 --> 05:33:13.000 through this decade. 5040 05:33:15.720 --> 05:33:18.119 Because we have the we have the Internet, and we 5041 05:33:18.240 --> 05:33:22.759 have cameras on our phones, and information can be sent, 5042 05:33:23.319 --> 05:33:27.880 you know, can be sent instantaneously, and their people are 5043 05:33:28.000 --> 05:33:33.599 watching them basically incinerate populations. Yeah, it's I mean, how 5044 05:33:33.799 --> 05:33:36.240 is that not going? And then, you know, and that 5045 05:33:36.319 --> 05:33:39.599 would be bad enough if it was just this country 5046 05:33:40.240 --> 05:33:43.880 six thousand miles away, but then you have people who 5047 05:33:43.959 --> 05:33:47.439 are claiming this to be the same as those people 5048 05:33:47.520 --> 05:33:50.479 over there that are doing it in your own country, 5049 05:33:50.919 --> 05:33:54.479 who are defending it and calling you evil and calling 5050 05:33:54.520 --> 05:33:58.080 you an anti Semite and basically saying that you you've 5051 05:33:58.200 --> 05:34:03.080 given up your right to exist anymore if you criticize this, 5052 05:34:03.240 --> 05:34:05.880 if you say that it's evil, if you say that, 5053 05:34:06.080 --> 05:34:08.680 how can you do this? What is it inside of 5054 05:34:08.759 --> 05:34:14.880 you that allows you to do this? And it's just information. 5055 05:34:15.439 --> 05:34:18.240 That's the thing that changed in the nineteen nineties. You know, 5056 05:34:18.400 --> 05:34:21.520 they could they could go into Gaza or the West 5057 05:34:21.560 --> 05:34:24.279 Bank and they could do what they did, and the 5058 05:34:25.040 --> 05:34:27.080 world only knew what The New York Times and what 5059 05:34:27.240 --> 05:34:31.080 you know, a couple a couple cable news outlets and 5060 05:34:31.520 --> 05:34:35.560 the local news told them. But now that everybody can 5061 05:34:35.680 --> 05:34:38.880 see it and it's exposed, you know, and it's basically 5062 05:34:38.959 --> 05:34:42.119 it's like they're back in Russia. They're back in Russia 5063 05:34:42.159 --> 05:34:44.520 where they're amongst people who you know, it's like my 5064 05:34:45.240 --> 05:34:48.520 you know, my mother's family came from is from Galicia. 5065 05:34:48.639 --> 05:34:54.520 They're you know, Hungarian Hungarians and pollocks who were around 5066 05:34:54.599 --> 05:34:57.560 them in Galicia, and like they came here in like 5067 05:34:57.680 --> 05:35:01.000 nineteen ten and nineteen eleven, and and you know, I'm 5068 05:35:01.279 --> 05:35:04.200 growing up and I'm like, why is my grandmother, well 5069 05:35:04.479 --> 05:35:07.159 that's what I'm talking about, my great grandparents, And I'm thinking, 5070 05:35:07.200 --> 05:35:11.919 why is my grandmother hate Jewish people so much? And 5071 05:35:12.000 --> 05:35:15.639 it's like, oh yeah, because they because they lived in 5072 05:35:16.000 --> 05:35:18.560 they lived in basically what was Pale Settlement at the time, 5073 05:35:19.279 --> 05:35:21.439 and they got to see the way that they acted, 5074 05:35:21.880 --> 05:35:24.959 and they got to see how revolutionary they were, and 5075 05:35:25.000 --> 05:35:29.000 they got to see them assassinate like public officials and 5076 05:35:29.080 --> 05:35:33.759 everyone knew who was doing it. And that's what's happening now. 5077 05:35:33.880 --> 05:35:36.360 It was like back then they couldn't hide it because 5078 05:35:36.479 --> 05:35:39.000 you know, they were in one section and they stood 5079 05:35:39.040 --> 05:35:41.919 out like a sore thumb. And now everyone can see 5080 05:35:41.959 --> 05:35:44.159 what they're doing because we have the Internet and it's 5081 05:35:44.200 --> 05:35:48.919 blasted everywhere, and they start their own telegram channels and 5082 05:35:49.119 --> 05:35:54.599 post videos of them doing it, like the seventy two 5083 05:35:54.680 --> 05:35:57.759 Virgins channel that was run by IDF by Unit eighty 5084 05:35:57.799 --> 05:36:00.880 two hundred, and they were advertised what they were doing, 5085 05:36:02.000 --> 05:36:05.360 so let the world know. And it's like, okay, yeah, 5086 05:36:05.959 --> 05:36:08.599 well how do we how are we supposed to deal 5087 05:36:08.680 --> 05:36:12.799 with that? I mean, and if you ask questions, it's like, okay, 5088 05:36:12.880 --> 05:36:15.080 why are you doing this? Why you know, why are 5089 05:36:15.159 --> 05:36:17.959 you saying that? You know every time a baby dies 5090 05:36:18.080 --> 05:36:22.400 there was a terrorist hiding behind them. Yeah, It's like, 5091 05:36:22.479 --> 05:36:28.159 I mean, how do you You can't rational I can't rationalize. 5092 05:36:28.200 --> 05:36:32.000 You know, a terrorist in this country hiding under, you know, 5093 05:36:32.159 --> 05:36:36.000 a building in downtown New York and dropping a bomb 5094 05:36:36.080 --> 05:36:39.080 on that building to get to get one terrorist. I 5095 05:36:39.159 --> 05:36:41.720 don't see how that can. I don't see how you 5096 05:36:41.799 --> 05:36:45.560 can do that. But oh everybody in that building is evil? 5097 05:36:46.959 --> 05:36:52.400 What I mean you talk about? I mean, this goes 5098 05:36:52.479 --> 05:36:56.720 beyond gas lighting, This goes to Holy fuck. Do you 5099 05:36:56.840 --> 05:36:59.880 think do you think I'm I mean, how fucking low you? 5100 05:37:00.119 --> 05:37:00.159 What? 5101 05:37:00.240 --> 05:37:00.880 What do you think about? 5102 05:37:00.919 --> 05:37:01.680 IQ is? 5103 05:37:04.560 --> 05:37:06.279 I mean you think I'm i do think. 5104 05:37:07.520 --> 05:37:11.240 Yeah, I must not be as extremely online as I thought, 5105 05:37:11.279 --> 05:37:13.759 because I've never heard of this channel you mentioned, and 5106 05:37:13.840 --> 05:37:16.720 now I'm looking at a Jerusalem Post article about it, 5107 05:37:16.840 --> 05:37:23.159 and Holy Christ, that is that's yes, Uh, it's hard to. 5108 05:37:23.560 --> 05:37:26.520 Their own fucking atrocities. 5109 05:37:27.680 --> 05:37:33.279 Yeah, I can't imagine that that level of of of barbarism, 5110 05:37:33.599 --> 05:37:35.799 which is funny because we're told that they are the 5111 05:37:36.200 --> 05:37:39.639 outpost of Western democracy in the Middle East, and that's 5112 05:37:39.840 --> 05:37:43.680 that's barbarism. That makes you know, uh, what they did 5113 05:37:43.759 --> 05:37:47.840 take a daffy look like uh, you know, an elementary 5114 05:37:47.880 --> 05:37:50.279 school beat down, you know, like you're in the backyard, 5115 05:37:50.319 --> 05:37:53.840 you got roughed up behind the fucking slide or whatever. Like. 5116 05:37:54.040 --> 05:37:56.799 That's that's like child's play compared to the stuff that's 5117 05:37:56.840 --> 05:38:01.840 on there. Just to go back the section or the 5118 05:38:02.080 --> 05:38:08.000 excerpt you've read about the woman expressing guilt over circumcising 5119 05:38:08.080 --> 05:38:13.240 her son, I mean again, it's it's just the persecution 5120 05:38:13.479 --> 05:38:17.639 is coming from inside the house, is really I think 5121 05:38:17.720 --> 05:38:22.200 the punchline of this essay. Whatever we want to say 5122 05:38:22.200 --> 05:38:27.159 about Freud's genuine intentions or his genuine malice or not. 5123 05:38:27.479 --> 05:38:31.360 Maybe he was totally unconscious, Maybe there was no malice whatsoever. 5124 05:38:31.840 --> 05:38:34.680 Maybe he just was a wacky guy with a weird 5125 05:38:34.799 --> 05:38:37.279 sense of humor and which from time to time say 5126 05:38:37.479 --> 05:38:41.599 really condemned, you know, self condemning things to his peers 5127 05:38:41.880 --> 05:38:48.959 and whatever. Just the nature of that community. And they're, 5128 05:38:49.080 --> 05:38:52.599 like you said, their their need to separate themselves out 5129 05:38:52.759 --> 05:38:57.720 from every other population. Uh, they do that through barbarism, 5130 05:38:57.799 --> 05:39:01.959 they do that through terrorism. And you know, the sort 5131 05:39:02.000 --> 05:39:07.279 of tragedy say this trying to be you know, a 5132 05:39:07.319 --> 05:39:09.200 little bit careful with my language here. I mean, the 5133 05:39:09.319 --> 05:39:12.639 tragedy of it is that they are still human and 5134 05:39:13.200 --> 05:39:17.840 that they obviously are tortured by these things they do 5135 05:39:17.959 --> 05:39:21.599 to themselves that they like. On the one hand, they 5136 05:39:22.040 --> 05:39:25.360 want to do it, and they seem to consciously understand 5137 05:39:25.520 --> 05:39:31.240 the purpose of circumcising themselves, of doing the brits, of 5138 05:39:31.360 --> 05:39:34.680 doing all these things that they do, these ritualistic ways 5139 05:39:34.799 --> 05:39:38.880 of marking their identity and cohering their community, like they 5140 05:39:39.080 --> 05:39:41.880 understand the role that it functions, and they sort they 5141 05:39:41.919 --> 05:39:46.880 seem to understand the brutality of it, but they nonetheless 5142 05:39:48.360 --> 05:39:52.439 carry the toll of those consequences. And then they're out 5143 05:39:52.479 --> 05:39:56.040 in the world amongst us, you know, and and and 5144 05:39:56.159 --> 05:40:00.639 That's what makes sort of these Freudian defense mechanisms kind 5145 05:40:00.680 --> 05:40:05.159 of so significant, because if you, you know, imagine yourself 5146 05:40:05.319 --> 05:40:10.080 in the shoes of somebody who brutalized their infant son 5147 05:40:10.759 --> 05:40:14.000 because it was part of their their religion and part 5148 05:40:14.040 --> 05:40:16.279 of their identity to do that, and they had been 5149 05:40:16.360 --> 05:40:21.119 doing it for countless generations, and they know that it's brutalizing, 5150 05:40:21.639 --> 05:40:24.240 and the only way they can cope with it is 5151 05:40:24.360 --> 05:40:29.040 to sort of become like this cold, distant tyrant to 5152 05:40:29.159 --> 05:40:33.000 their own children. And then you're the child that grows 5153 05:40:33.080 --> 05:40:38.119 up like that. You grow up basically cattle prod you know, 5154 05:40:38.840 --> 05:40:44.200 within seven days of being born, and it's your parents 5155 05:40:44.880 --> 05:40:45.279 go ahead. 5156 05:40:45.720 --> 05:40:50.639 It's worse than that, Okay, So not only are you 5157 05:40:50.680 --> 05:40:54.200 brought up that way, you're also brought up being told 5158 05:40:54.439 --> 05:40:58.799 that everybody wants to kill you, that historically everybody has 5159 05:40:58.840 --> 05:41:03.279 wanted to kill you, and you're told that your God's 5160 05:41:03.360 --> 05:41:08.240 chosen mm hm, that we are this special people. Now, 5161 05:41:08.799 --> 05:41:13.200 I'm not going to pretend like I've read, you know, 5162 05:41:14.000 --> 05:41:18.639 papers and books on narcissism, but to me, all of 5163 05:41:18.720 --> 05:41:23.000 those things combined seem to create soup like the greatest 5164 05:41:23.159 --> 05:41:25.560 army of super narcissists that have ever walked the planet. 5165 05:41:28.240 --> 05:41:31.200 Complex narcissists too, because if you think about so just 5166 05:41:31.599 --> 05:41:33.919 I mean to put a little bit of technical technical 5167 05:41:34.000 --> 05:41:40.720 language on you, I mean, there are multiple kinds of narcissists, 5168 05:41:41.319 --> 05:41:48.520 and and and there's and it's interesting. I mean, on 5169 05:41:48.599 --> 05:41:52.520 the one hand, you have like the categorical personality disorder 5170 05:41:52.639 --> 05:41:58.360 of narcissism, but there's like grandiose narcissists, which is to say, 5171 05:41:58.479 --> 05:42:01.799 overt narcissists. That's like the kind of stereotype that we 5172 05:42:01.880 --> 05:42:04.040 all have in our mind of like the guy who 5173 05:42:04.119 --> 05:42:06.240 gets out in front of the crowd to be the 5174 05:42:06.319 --> 05:42:08.880 big man, you know, That's what we all tend to 5175 05:42:08.880 --> 05:42:14.799 think of as narcissists. But then there's communal narcissists. There's 5176 05:42:15.080 --> 05:42:23.759 antagonistic narcissists. There are malignant narcissists, covert narcissists, and it 5177 05:42:23.840 --> 05:42:30.080 seems like in any given moment, an afflicted Jewish person 5178 05:42:30.319 --> 05:42:34.040 can kind of like oscillate between all of them. They 5179 05:42:34.080 --> 05:42:38.720 are the grand standing moralizer or the grand standing like 5180 05:42:39.159 --> 05:42:42.279 I am a superhero. But then there's also like the 5181 05:42:42.560 --> 05:42:46.639 like Jonathan Green Black type of shrinking back, where anything 5182 05:42:46.759 --> 05:42:50.040 you do, anything you say is an attack on me 5183 05:42:50.520 --> 05:42:54.000 makes me feel small, makes me feel like you're being punitive. 5184 05:42:56.959 --> 05:43:00.599 The type of narcissists where you know, like the social 5185 05:43:00.680 --> 05:43:05.080 worker or the community organizer or the you know, social 5186 05:43:05.319 --> 05:43:09.599 justice activist, where they're masking their narcissism in this kind 5187 05:43:09.639 --> 05:43:16.080 of grand, almost christlike manner of being everything to everyone. 5188 05:43:16.319 --> 05:43:21.520 I mean, they they seem to like hit every flavor 5189 05:43:21.680 --> 05:43:28.200 of narcissism imaginable and that almost I mean, this is 5190 05:43:28.240 --> 05:43:29.479 one of the things where if you want to get 5191 05:43:29.599 --> 05:43:32.159 racist about your psychology, you have to take a step 5192 05:43:32.240 --> 05:43:36.479 back and say, like, Okay, is narcissist a racial type 5193 05:43:36.880 --> 05:43:40.759 before it's even a psychological type. And if it's a 5194 05:43:40.880 --> 05:43:45.840 racial type, then how do you even categorize narcissism as 5195 05:43:45.880 --> 05:43:53.319 a sort of general psychological tendency when it looks different 5196 05:43:53.400 --> 05:43:57.000 from one group to the next, and even within one group, 5197 05:43:57.720 --> 05:44:02.479 it looks different based on the context, Like when you 5198 05:44:03.119 --> 05:44:07.520 sort of generalize narcissism to to like the whole of 5199 05:44:07.560 --> 05:44:11.000 the human species, Like the most common ones are like 5200 05:44:11.200 --> 05:44:14.560 the timid you know, I'm I feel bad about myself 5201 05:44:14.639 --> 05:44:18.439 and my narcissism is a is a cope versus the 5202 05:44:18.520 --> 05:44:23.360 sort of like strong narcissistic type where it's patholo, it's 5203 05:44:23.400 --> 05:44:27.080 a it's a the word I'm looking for, sort of 5204 05:44:27.279 --> 05:44:31.759 intractable personality style that always shows up in every situation. 5205 05:44:31.479 --> 05:44:31.799 That they're in. 5206 05:44:32.279 --> 05:44:34.639 It's like, those are the most common types of narcissisms 5207 05:44:34.680 --> 05:44:37.439 of narcissism that you see in the world. And maybe 5208 05:44:37.520 --> 05:44:40.759 you could say that's a sort of general tendency speaking 5209 05:44:40.840 --> 05:44:44.000 to whether you know people either have inflated sense of 5210 05:44:44.080 --> 05:44:47.520 self worth deflated sense of self worth, but Jews have 5211 05:44:47.639 --> 05:44:54.360 this sort of like complex narcissism that is that again, 5212 05:44:54.439 --> 05:44:59.799 it defies generalizing to a to the level of a 5213 05:45:00.080 --> 05:45:01.119 universal human condition. 5214 05:45:05.439 --> 05:45:10.520 Let's leave it there. Please promote you have you have books, 5215 05:45:10.599 --> 05:45:12.400 you have yes, please promote. 5216 05:45:13.360 --> 05:45:15.080 Yeah. Well again, thanks for having me on. I love 5217 05:45:15.119 --> 05:45:16.639 talking to you. I wish I had more to offer 5218 05:45:16.759 --> 05:45:19.599 during the essay. I was just really wrapped up in 5219 05:45:20.040 --> 05:45:23.040 getting through that with you. Definitely thought provoking when we 5220 05:45:23.119 --> 05:45:25.439 got to the end of it. But check me out 5221 05:45:25.479 --> 05:45:28.159 on Antelope Hill Publishing dot com for my new book, 5222 05:45:28.479 --> 05:45:32.639 Intolerant Interpretations. Check out Imperium Press for my two previous books, 5223 05:45:33.439 --> 05:45:38.000 American Extremist and Understanding Conspiracy Theories. On Substack, I haven't 5224 05:45:38.000 --> 05:45:39.959 published anything in a while, and I might not for 5225 05:45:40.040 --> 05:45:42.159 a while because I'm busy doing a lot of shows 5226 05:45:42.279 --> 05:45:46.319 like with you Janeel dot substack dot com and on 5227 05:45:46.439 --> 05:45:49.520 Twitter or x. Still, Janeel, thank you so much. 5228 05:45:49.639 --> 05:45:49.880 Pete. 5229 05:45:49.880 --> 05:45:52.200 It's a pleasure. Hope your audience enjoys appreciate it. 5230 05:45:52.279 --> 05:45:53.720 Josh yeah Man, thank you.