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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingana Show.

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I'm here with j Neil Janiel right, Jay, Jay's okay,

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you can call me Josh, Josh, Josh Neil.

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Speaker 2: What's going on, Josh, Oh, it's going well, it's it's

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a great pleasure to be speaking to you. I have

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to say shout out to my friend Jefferson Lee. H

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he put me on to you because you have this

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great series with Thomas seven seven on like all these

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historical things, and it's just a it's a real it's

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a real public service you two guys do, so kudos

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to you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, and then tomorrow starts the balk the nineteen

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nineties Balkan Wars.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Well yeah, so, as I said before, I host or

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co host Jefferson Lee Show with my friend Jefferson Lee,

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who's also in this. I write. I have a substack

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Jneil dot substack. I've branded it as Psychopolitics and it's

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mostly essays on psychology and politics, and there's an accompanying

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YouTube channel. My first book with Imperium Press is called

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American Extremist. The Psychology of Political extremism, and I actually

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got a new one coming out with them in a

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few weeks called Understanding Conspiracy Theories. But yeah, for people

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who don't know me, I've been i would say, in

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the radical righte with my name and face out there

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since twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen. I made the switch. I think,

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like for a lot of people I know, we were

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hardcore Trumpists, like very libertarian, but like on that cusp

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of well what used to be called the liberty, like

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the libertarian to a right pipeline. And so I was

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one of those guys. And when when the Seria strikes happened,

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that's when I started to look away from Trump and

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start looking to other things. And then in twenty seventeen,

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obviously that was the ault right. So for people who

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don't know me, that's my background.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about American extremists.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so a little bit of a personal story. I

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was in twenty nineteen. I was involved with some people

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that your audience may be familiar with, people like Richard Spencer,

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so on and so forth, Augustas and Victis. At the time,

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he was running for office at presidential office and remember yeah, yeah,

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and it was wild, great guy, terrible what happened to him?

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He's out, obviously, and so he's back to streaming, you know,

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to your audience, showing your love and affection. He's a

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great guy. But I got docked as a result of

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getting involved with a lot of those people. And I

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had already I came into the alt right because I

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have a background in psychology, maybe you guessed from the

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title of the book, and I went you know, I

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didn't go to the doctoral direction because the kinds of

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questions I was interested in were more political and philosophical

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than like strictly speaking about mental health or whatever social

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science research I guess on today. So I was already

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working on some stuff observations I had over the years.

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But it was really like getting into the radical right

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was like having the veil pulled away from your eyes

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entirely so, and then getting docked as a result of

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that kind of made me have to confront some kind

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of realities. Like when I got into it, I was like, oh, well, Nazis,

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that's not a real thing. That's just like a libtard fantasy.

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And you know, by and large it's not you know,

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it's not like there's a well organized, politically active machine

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that has political, cultural material resources, things like that. Obviously

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that's not happening, but nonetheless there are people who espouse

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those views, and they range from totally harmless, tepid, you know,

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contributing members of society who just want the trains to

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run on time, and on the other end are actual degenerates.

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People you wouldn't want to associate yourself with. The reality.

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I think, as most people probably know, is that really

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is an extreme, heavily ostracized minority, not just by polite society,

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but even in these kinds of circles. You know, I

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do think we do a really good job of self policing,

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maybe to our detriment, because obviously the left doesn't do

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that at all. They just set their freaks loose. So

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when I came out of that, I felt like I

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had some unique things to say about what was wrong

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with American politics, left right and center, and so I

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kind of wrote the book imagining I'm holding someone's hand

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through a red pill process a very you know, not

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like cutesy memes and gifts like this is a little

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bit more. You're gonna have to take some breaks, You

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have to go back to the corner and have them

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you know, fucking whatever those things in boxing that they

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put when you get when you start developing the mouses,

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they put that huge fucking like think or compress on

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your head like this is a red pill like that,

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but you'll need the compress and everything. So it starts

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off talking about media control, myth the mythological narrativizing as

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the framework people should be thinking about rather than like

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ideology or so on and so forth. And so I

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carry people through this, you know, here's what's you know,

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here's what myth is. Here's like how this kind of

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psychological framework is influencing your decision making, so on and

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so forth. And I give actual lots of citations to that.

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And then obviously going of the media. You know, this

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is because the basic thesis of the book is it's

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not an original idea. I just really kind of beat

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the hell out of it over the course of the book.

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Is that the liberal establishment is genuinely where political violence

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originates from. Whether it's you know, forced integration by gun

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by military, whether it's Antifa in the streets, which is

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not so much a thing right now, whether it's journalists

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going after you wait, oh yes, right, just yeah, I

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don't want to speak too soon, knock on wood. So

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getting people to think, which is very easy if you're

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talking to conservatives, because they already hate the government, and

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they hated the government for like one hundred and fifty

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three hundred years. The Americans have just always hated the government,

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and so it's very easy to be like, well, here's

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here's this persecutory framework, but you have to adjust some

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of the variables because obviously Connink runs on his own

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persecutory framework and it's false, as we all know. So

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that's the basic thesis, and then I try to explain

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how that is, and in some cases it's talking about

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literally I was writing this during twenty twenty, so every

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week i'm like kind of pseudo like like almost like

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a historian of it, like an ancient Roman historian, like

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there were this many black people on the street this day,

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and they busted this many heads or whatever. So it's

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half like okay, philosophical analysis, but also half like detailing

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the actual political violence that was happening at that time.

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I actually think it made it even more impactful because

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it's like here's theoretical stuff, here's some nice sise sources

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and citations. And then also, here's the video of a

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black guy stomping on someone's head until they're bleeding all

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over the place. Obviously that's not what's in the book.

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And then taking these people, you know, well, here's what's

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wrong with the left wing in America, here's what's wrong

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with the centrism, liberalism it kind of informally, and then

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what's wrong with the right, And a lot of it

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relies very heavily on kind of classical psychoanalytic theories, but

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it's not all psychoanalysis, and as Mike likes to say,

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the book does take Freud back for the right. So

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I mean, if you have if you're allergic to or

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sensitive to Freud, and obviously I understand why people would be.

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It's very much like a different spin on kind of

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a familiar story.

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Speaker 1: One of these days, you've got to come back and

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do an episode just on narrative building, because I mean,

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that's where everything is. And anybody who doesn't realize that

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after the last four years is just not paying attention.

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They're in their ideological box and they're you know, playing

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playing with is them and their friends playing by themselves.

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You know, it's just you and stepped out to look

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around and see exactly what's happening out here. But one

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of the things that I really been looking at lately

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is individualism. And I think it's hard to miss that

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this was. Individualism was a big part of the founding

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of this country. You can see it in the founding documents.

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People will argue that, sure, you know there was individual

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people talked about individual rights, but there was collectives and everything.

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Well sure, okay, yeah, there were collectives and everything, but

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everything always moves left, it seems, so you you sort

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of knew that it wasn't going to last anyone who

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you could look at you you know things, things don't

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get better until they get really, really, really really bad.

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And so there's a section in the book where you

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talk about is after the narrative, part about the narrative,

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it where it's individualism, anarchism, and I think sociopathy. So

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can we get a little bit into you know, like

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what you see as when it comes to individualism, is

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that what you see is that is that what you

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see this society and this culture being all about.

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Speaker 2: Yes and no pros and cons on both sides of

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that equation. I mean, Kevin McDonald obviously famously has written

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about this. I think it's pretty uncontroversial to say that

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the Western tradition is the tradition of the individual. However,

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in the same way, to be a liberal in the

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eighteenth century meant something different than to be a liberal today.

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To be an individual in the eighteenth century meant something

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different than it does today.

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Speaker 1: I read a lot.

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Speaker 2: I've been reading a lot of San Francis and James

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Burnham lately, and you know, one of the things that

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San Francis emphasizes, Sorry, I just lost my train of

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thought is that.

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Speaker 1: So eighteenth century liberalism is different than liberalism today.

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Speaker 2: And then being an individual okay, thank you. So he

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talks about like, for instance, great safe, very good job.

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You know, he talks about okay, you know, there's these

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different types of liberals, and if you were a liberal

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in the eighteenth century, actually, you know, fundamentally, what's distinguishing

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it from today's liberal is all of these restraints and

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considerations and obligations and duties and belongingness and embeddedness. That

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is the background of all this cool, sexy enlightenment liberal

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stuff that we started doing over the last couple hundred years.

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There was a story in the news not too long ago,

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maybe a couple of years ago, someone was trying to

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get Immanuel count canceled because they found his like private

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correspondences where he just talks about racism and hating women

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and stuff like that. And it's like, none of these

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people it was just a foregone conclusion that that that

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whatever they theorized was occurring in a homogeneous European Christian context.

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So same thing with being an individual. You still had

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responsibilities and obligations and duties and and and other things.

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Your individualism was still curtailed by larger social forces, the church,

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the different political organizations, so and so forth at that time,

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and so you still had to fit in society. But

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today it's really the opposite. Society is now increasingly bending

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to accommodate the most extreme individual people who can collectivize

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and then create this political edifice that that makes the

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rest of us conform to them. Where I work, you know,

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I had to accommodate a gender, non whatever kind of person,

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and you know that's their individualism kind of like having

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this warping effect on the social fields around them. Like, well,

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suddenly the rest of us are caught in your madness,

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And that's just part of the equation you said before

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you kind of like hinted at the moldbug line about

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you know, Cthulhu always swimming left. I think that's obviously

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because technology has this corrosive effect on social norms and

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morera's the ultimate consequence or outcome of which is this

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kind of radical liberation from all this social embeddedness going on.

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So today, to be an individual is I mean, I'm

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not the first person to say this. Your audience hopefully

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very well understands this. To be an individual today is

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unlike any probably any kind of person that has ever

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existed in human history. To the point I remember I

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for a short spell, I was a teacher, the university teacher,

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and I remember telling my students like ten years ago,

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like because the hot question I would always get day one,

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like intro psychology classes, like okay, professor deets, what's up

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with all these trans folks?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And then like I'm trying to go through the like

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syllabus and they're like can you make sense of this?

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To me? Like all right, hold on, but like to

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go through that conversation with them and be like, well,

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guess that's not even weird, Like just wait seven years

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and you're going to have people like with prosthetics and

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you're gonna have to start calling them what they want

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or just the the the the the, if you want

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to say. The continuing like revolutionary spirit of this is

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just going to keep bringing new manifestations of this. So

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with regards to the title of that section, Individualism and Sociopathy,

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the argument I make said, effectively, to be like an entrepreneur,

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you know, the Fu Coodian self entrepreneur, to be this

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neoliberal person, to be an American you know extensive air quotes,

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is to be this radically self constructed person with like

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no predecessor, no context, no pretext. It's solipsism. I mean,

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it's every nasty word you've ever heard in a philosophy class,

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but ultimately it's pathological.

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Speaker 1: Do you see that as like, particularly a post World

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War two phenomenon where you really start seeing things this

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it all start breaking apart as far as a real

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change and what it means to be an individual.

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Speaker 2: Yes, although the seeds of that were very clearly starting

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to show in the fifty sixty years prior to that. So,

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you know, the progressive tradition in the United States at

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the turn of the twentieth century was a Nazi progressive vision.

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To put it indelicately, I mean everything that the Third

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Reich did, not everything, but the things that we mostly

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remember them for, the economic policies and the kind of

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extreme technocratic interest on social policies. That's those are Anglo inventions.

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That's Atlanticist philosophy. Turn of the twentieth century. American and

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Englishmen are looking out at the world and they're seeing

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what we've come to inherit and they're like, oh my god,

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what what the hell do we do about all this?

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And I think there was some kind of attempt to

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shepherd in a new vision of the individual that could,

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you know, protect the white race, to protect white people,

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to protect America, to protect England, the British Isles, to

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protect political sovereignty in European nations, so on, to protect

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the Constitution. I mean, these these things are all synonymous, really,

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It's not like they're separate things. If you want to

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protect the Constitution, if you want to say of America,

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if you want to do the North I almost had

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Norman Rockwell, if you to the George Lincoln Rockwell thing, Well,

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it's all the same thing. But uh yeah, So as

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far as that post war aspect of that, I look

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at the post war order, and this is an argument

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I'm making my upcoming book. There was a slur that

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was very common at that time used by effectively the

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radical right whenever they would talk about the liberal consensus,

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you know, they'd talk about, well, that's that's what they

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would call them. It was this consensus view, and it

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had a kind of derogatory uh kind of like proto libtard,

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like if you were the consensus, your your you were brainwashed,

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you were just spouting kind of like this new fangled

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liberal social ideology that had no popularity really or history

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prior to the Second World War. So this consensus was

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the meeting of you know, the dying Atlantis sist Empire

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and this surge of European migration into the West, of

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a very particular type of European from Russia, maybe the

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Pale somewhere over there, and they met in the middle.

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The West had to be saved. We you know, the

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whole European experiment, like twentieth century is like this great

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tragedy of us, just like figuring out new ways to

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just roast each other, and by the middle of the

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twentieth century, how many of us are left, not a

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lot of the good ones. So it's this waning Western

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empire that's bringing in a lot of this well as

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we know now ex Bolshevist you know, or descended from

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Bolshevist types who came in wanted to find a place

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in America, and they found flattering ways to reinforce the

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waning American liberal ideology in a way that made sense

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post you know, San Francis to speak, to invoke him

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one more time, post this managerial revolution, this mass managerial revolution.

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So you know, there's a lot of ideas and concepts

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that emerged at that time that are not necessarily related.

301
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Maybe if you tried to do a genealogy and try

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to connect these things, like Glenn Beck on Fox News

303
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with his whiteboard, maybe you couldn't do that. But nonetheless

304
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they're all talking about the same goal. I invoked Fuko

305
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,160
before the Entrepreneur of the Self, his idea of neoliberalism.

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This is the new American economic policy post World War Two,

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which the major emphasis of which was about this internal

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kind of psychic development that was supposed to be this

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you know, essential to unlocking this American economic engine to

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fulfilling you know, the old American idea, but in a

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new way, uh, in this new technocratic society. And so

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my inherited wisdom. You know, I'm a little bit younger

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than you. I'm still in my thirties. I had my

314
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birthday earlier this week. The things I was told growing up,

315
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that we're good pieces of advice, follow your dreams, do

316
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it makes you happy. This is like the head smashed in,

317
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you know, inherited version of of like the Fucodian ideas,

318
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like you can liberate yourself and you can be anything

319
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,440
that you want, and all of this is like a

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radical political act, but it's also American and bubblah. So

321
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I think it's specifically and obviously the purpose of this

322
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:35,759
consensus being, you know, how do we manage the existing

323
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populations while we get this new migratory program in place.

324
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So I feel like that individualism not to get like

325
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,279
crazy tinfoil hat is not like an intentional thing that

326
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was done, like we're going to ameliorate or we're gonna

327
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anesthetize people while we start moving infinity Africans around. I

328
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think it was kind of a natural development, but the

329
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consequences obviously for us have been terrible.

330
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Speaker 1: It's sort of like we've become we're like these radical

331
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surfs or these radical annuities, walking annuities. Basically, what they

332
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wanted was a transactional society, and it basically turned us

333
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into transactional beings. And yeah, nasally, that's part of the

334
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:29,640
individuality of it is what what are you contributing to commerce?

335
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It's what the military is now. I mean, if you

336
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go to the Navy's website, it will say that they

337
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,839
are there to protect the the you know, the sea

338
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lanes for commerce in the world, you know, so that

339
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it can move. And yeah, so I was thinking you

340
00:21:48,759 --> 00:21:51,240
were One of the things that you had mentioned was

341
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how even with the individualism of the old, of the

342
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previous to what we're dealing with now, when you had church,

343
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when you had family structure, when you had a lot

344
00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:08,759
of things to keep you grounded, to keep you as

345
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,119
part of a tight knit I think our our reno

346
00:22:14,279 --> 00:22:17,119
return to the strong gods something like that. Yeah, and

347
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,440
that's that's what That's what I was thinking the whole time,

348
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was the goal of crushing you know, like the Italian

349
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American society and mutual aid societies, churches, and the family

350
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is to turn everybody into this radical kind of monetary instrument.

351
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Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, I well, some things to keep in mind

352
00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:52,960
as you're talking. I've always got the eternal like devil

353
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,880
angel on one side or the other. I'm a terrible contrarian.

354
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So as you're talking, I was starting to do a

355
00:22:58,279 --> 00:23:00,279
bit a bit of a like a hey man, that's

356
00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:02,599
not really fair, right, because I was starting to think, well,

357
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transaction has always been part of society. You know, the

358
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internal critic who's like watching us and thinking they're full

359
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,680
of shit. I'm trying to answer them as I'm listening

360
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,480
to you, like, there's always been an economic component of society.

361
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So fundamentally, how is this different, right, Because that's probably

362
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what someone who's listening to you and disagrees with you

363
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,039
and me might say, And it's the fundamentally, it's a

364
00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:29,720
qualitative difference more than anything else. One of the things

365
00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:31,720
I was thinking of that I think is a really

366
00:23:31,759 --> 00:23:33,839
good example of what you're talking about, a contempt a

367
00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:38,160
modern phenomenon is exactly how the red pill manisphere or

368
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:43,160
community has ended up like this year, where if you

369
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,799
listen to or read people in these communities talk about specifically,

370
00:23:47,799 --> 00:23:50,359
men talk about, you know, why they fail with women,

371
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or why feminism sucks, or why the world has given

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00:23:53,519 --> 00:23:56,240
them a raw deal, so on and so forth. Is

373
00:23:56,279 --> 00:23:59,599
they start talking about, like they roll out their laundry

374
00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:02,559
list of things that they expect the woman to bring,

375
00:24:02,839 --> 00:24:05,759
because it's a it's a tit for tat, you know,

376
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,880
I want to solve the free loader problem. You know,

377
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,480
all of these things where well she doesn't you know,

378
00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:13,799
if she doesn't cook and do this and that and

379
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,440
have one hundred and seventy thousand dollars or four or

380
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,960
one k and blah blah blah blah. It's like, for

381
00:24:19,039 --> 00:24:21,599
one thing, it's very feminine because like the whole transactional

382
00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:25,640
thing was like trying to solve the native sexual inequalities

383
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,799
between men and women and trying to solve like all

384
00:24:29,839 --> 00:24:37,400
of these complex social problems fertility, pair bonding, alleviating tribal conflicts,

385
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,519
ameliorating tribal conflicts, so on and so forth.

386
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: And so on.

387
00:24:43,599 --> 00:24:46,599
Speaker 2: The one hand, you know, qualitatively has it different is

388
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,759
part of this inversion the wrong people or have become

389
00:24:50,759 --> 00:24:53,200
the being counters. Being counting is kind of a womanly thing,

390
00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:55,119
and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, like

391
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,359
you know they mind the domestic life. You know, they're

392
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,720
very fastidious details in that manner. They make up eighty

393
00:25:02,759 --> 00:25:08,599
percent of automestic spending, like that's their domain. That's a

394
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,240
qualitative difference. But now that it's also I was going

395
00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:16,519
to say this before, it's also much more egotistical, and

396
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,079
we might as well say egotistical pejoratively egotism. I mean

397
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,039
we might as well say when I really, when I

398
00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:25,200
talk about individualism in the book, it's probably better to

399
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:33,720
say egotism and extreme radical egotism, which is all about, well,

400
00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:37,000
ultimately like you're not really interfacing with direct reality because

401
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,559
you're interfacing first with this buffer of your own self

402
00:25:41,599 --> 00:25:46,640
aggrandizing bullshit, which the contemporary version of individualism is just

403
00:25:46,799 --> 00:25:50,119
like constantly throwing It's like a guy just always throwing

404
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,559
gasoline on the fire so you can come up with

405
00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:56,200
ever more insane cope, like this guy Will Stancil on Twitter.

406
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,160
I don't know if you've been watching him. It's like

407
00:25:58,559 --> 00:26:00,920
it's like we're going on a full business week of

408
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,640
this and all you're watching is just egotism.

409
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:11,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's remarkable. Well, let's let's talk about this.

410
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,640
Because we can talk about individualism, we can talk about anarchism,

411
00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:20,240
but what it crosses over and in your personal life,

412
00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:25,240
I mean, that can cause enough problems, especially relationship wise

413
00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:29,880
with your family. But let's cross over into the political. Now,

414
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,240
when that crosses over into the political, where do we

415
00:26:34,319 --> 00:26:37,279
end up? What's the path down that road?

416
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, anarchism is one, you know, expressly political manifestation.

417
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,759
I have a very small I would say, like maybe

418
00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:52,960
sub ten percent sympathy for anarchism, but it's not morally

419
00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:55,680
related to what you typically see from anarchists. I mean,

420
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,400
most people I think have a It's why we like vigilantes,

421
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,759
the punisher, the batman, because innately, we all, especially as conservatives,

422
00:27:03,799 --> 00:27:08,079
I think, have a distrust of society. We have a

423
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,599
distrust of large groups. We have distrust of things that

424
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,720
we can't see, smell, taste, touch, hold a cant accountable,

425
00:27:13,799 --> 00:27:17,000
so on and so forth, for better or for worse,

426
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,400
and gosh, I don't know where my brain is today.

427
00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:24,440
But anyway, So the point about anarchism, right, so it's

428
00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:26,359
it's a little tougher for conservatives, or maybe it's a

429
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,400
little easier for conservatives. That's what I was getting at.

430
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,240
But nonetheless, like political anarchism, it's it's distinct from individualism,

431
00:27:34,319 --> 00:27:37,559
and that I think it is more specifically about kind

432
00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:43,720
of you know, the Ed Dutton mutational loads, spiteful, mutant, sexual,

433
00:27:43,759 --> 00:27:47,680
deviant situation. Like at bottom, it seems to me that

434
00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:54,319
anarchism politically is just about protection of I don't know

435
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,079
what words I can use on your show. I don't

436
00:27:57,079 --> 00:28:00,400
care the common pizza types. Right, So it's like it's

437
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,000
effectively like a political organization for pedophiles. I don't think

438
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,920
there's anything more meaningful to anarchism about that. But then

439
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,039
again again it's like, well, how do you even have

440
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,799
like a political block of pedophiles be party participating in

441
00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:15,640
your democratic society. Well, I think that you have this

442
00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:24,079
continual radical liberation. I don't know if individualism is related

443
00:28:24,079 --> 00:28:28,359
to this, but certainly the criminal as being elevated, you know,

444
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,000
into a higher moral position than you know, people who

445
00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:34,519
enforced the law or people who simply follow the law

446
00:28:34,839 --> 00:28:37,359
might not be related to individualism per se, but it's

447
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,400
you know, this cascading decay of American society.

448
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: Well, it's a it's a tool I mean, if we're

449
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,319
going to talk about Sam Francis, we can talk about

450
00:28:44,359 --> 00:28:47,839
a narco tyranny. And I know a lot of I

451
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,400
know a lot of anarchists, especially a narco capitalists, who

452
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,079
absolutely hate that term because you know, it seeks to

453
00:28:54,319 --> 00:28:59,119
you know, it makes anarchy look bad. And historically it's

454
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,039
let's talk about the Spanish Civil War. I could do

455
00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:04,920
that for ten to twelve hours. Okay. When I think

456
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,960
of anarchism, I think of the Spanish Civil War, digging it,

457
00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:12,960
disint turning nuns and priests. But when you look at

458
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:19,960
a society where basically the people in charge are off

459
00:29:20,039 --> 00:29:23,319
doing whatever they're doing, like you were just mentioning, but

460
00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:27,480
they're allowing they can only get away with that, doing

461
00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:32,079
what they're doing by unleashing the worst dregs of society

462
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,640
upon the good people and telling the good people they

463
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,880
can't protect themselves from the dregs of society. And then

464
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,920
if the drugs of society do something really horrible, they

465
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,240
don't even just like this cop that just these cops

466
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,319
that got jumped in New York a couple of days ago,

467
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,920
and they were the people who did it. Migrants illegals

468
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,079
were released on wind, noobail. It's all a tool, and

469
00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:02,400
it's anarchy for some and not for others, and definitely

470
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,400
not the kind of anarchy that anarcho capital, a narcho

471
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:06,839
capitalist one, at least most of them.

472
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a certain like just base conformism that we

473
00:30:13,079 --> 00:30:17,119
all have as like human people with souls that these

474
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,680
people don't like. I mean that kind of Look. I

475
00:30:20,759 --> 00:30:23,359
went through an edged lord atheist phase, you know. I

476
00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:26,000
mean I never spit on priests or did anything really terrible,

477
00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:29,480
but you know, I probably said some untoward things towards

478
00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:33,119
our Lord. But like that degree, like we're going to

479
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:38,039
dig up nuns, We're going to you know, desecrate graves,

480
00:30:38,079 --> 00:30:44,319
We're gonna just try to innovate new ways to spit

481
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:48,759
on the normal social institutions around us. That's really what

482
00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:52,880
anarchism tends to be a lot of times. It's it's

483
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,480
that like lack of conformism, like that thoughtless conformism. I

484
00:30:56,519 --> 00:30:58,680
just go to church because it's because it's there, and

485
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,079
I just love Jesus because that's what I do. Right

486
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,759
like this, you're not even contemplating on it. But as

487
00:31:05,799 --> 00:31:08,440
far as like individualism and like what are the political

488
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:14,119
consequences of that, well, I think by and large, I

489
00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:19,559
think the two biggest outcomes are depoliticization, right, because what

490
00:31:19,559 --> 00:31:24,880
if you're an egotist. The kind of persuasive filter that

491
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,759
ultimately matters is like, oh, does this titillate me, does

492
00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:29,799
this interest me? Does this speak to me? Does this

493
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,599
have an immediate application to my my life world as

494
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:38,440
I perceive it? Whereas like, really political action is like extroverted.

495
00:31:38,519 --> 00:31:42,240
It's about looking at other people, looking at the problems

496
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,519
of other people in society. It's fundamentally, I mean, real

497
00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:48,880
politics is extraversion. I don't want I don't want to

498
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,240
use psychiatric language and abuse it that way. You know

499
00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:54,960
what I mean, You're not in an agreement. So on

500
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,039
one hand it's it's depoliticization, and then obviously on the

501
00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:04,480
other hand it's like it's extreme, well not just identity

502
00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:07,480
politics you could say would be part of it, maybe counterintuitively,

503
00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:11,240
but also like single issue voting, like all this wacky

504
00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:16,039
stuff like I only care about voting laws or whatever.

505
00:32:16,119 --> 00:32:20,599
I mean, as opposed to like nationalist folkish politics, where

506
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,640
it's like, well, everything is a political question, everything has

507
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,680
to be addressed politically, and we're going to have a

508
00:32:25,759 --> 00:32:28,799
vehicle to put people in those places to do that, right,

509
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,960
like the individuals who are part of the collective and

510
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,640
see them as selves as such and then can function

511
00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:39,119
as individuals in service of the collective. You know, that's

512
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,640
like again part of maybe that's why it's better to

513
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,640
say egotism, because ultimately being an individual is a good thing.

514
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,799
It's who we are, it's our tradition. We couldn't really

515
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,519
abandon it if we tried, and so fundamentally, what's different

516
00:32:55,599 --> 00:33:03,319
is this profoundly psychological dimension to modern life. You have

517
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:10,240
to have justifications for everything. You know, everything's personalized. You're

518
00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:12,960
encouraged to make everything your self, and that for a

519
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,279
lot of people that means they're politics too, which is

520
00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:16,119
not always a good thing.

521
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: I still engage with libertarians online. I know, I'm a masochist,

522
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,559
and you know, one the other day was like, oh,

523
00:33:26,599 --> 00:33:29,160
so you know, what's a bigger what's a bigger issue

524
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,839
than economics? And you know, one of my friends posted up,

525
00:33:33,559 --> 00:33:36,759
you know, drag queens from Weimar and drag queens now

526
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:40,279
and he's like, oh, oh, I'm scared of the Oh

527
00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:42,200
I'm supposed to be scared of the men dressing up

528
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,039
like women. And that's just that's exactly what it is.

529
00:33:46,079 --> 00:33:48,720
It's the meme of Rome falling, and you know the

530
00:33:48,759 --> 00:33:50,960
guy saying, oh, how does this affect me personally?

531
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,599
Speaker 2: But it does. It perfects you profoundly personally. I have

532
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,799
a working theory. It's not I'm not totally Maybe I

533
00:34:00,799 --> 00:34:02,400
shouldn't bring it to you, but I'll do it anyway.

534
00:34:03,279 --> 00:34:06,640
It has a lot to do with the explicitly property

535
00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:13,440
focused tradition in I think the Western economic auvoir. If

536
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,199
you want to say this is you know, people like

537
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,719
me who came up six seven years ago when like

538
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,960
the nas bole thing was popular. And the reason why

539
00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:27,599
like people like Keith Woods and whoever are constantly fighting

540
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:33,239
these accusations of communism is because I think the the

541
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:38,079
aspect of Western political society, which is kind of kind

542
00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:43,280
of like libertarians, but not not strictly limited to them.

543
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,440
The kinds that think of well, they think of America.

544
00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:50,559
What makes America great is its economy. So ultimately there's

545
00:34:50,599 --> 00:34:56,960
this extreme economic preference or privilege over privileging. But they

546
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,199
look at like Adam Smith, and they look at how

547
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,639
we solved the issues of property in the Western canon

548
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,320
as being like definitive to who we are. And you know,

549
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,320
I have a different temperament I actually, I mean outside

550
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,599
of like toothbrushes and things like that, I kind of

551
00:35:11,639 --> 00:35:14,880
don't care so much about property. You kind of figured

552
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,519
those things out, like I don't know, maybe because I

553
00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:18,760
in another life I was a musician.

554
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,639
Speaker 1: Well you know, you know what an anarcho capitalist is

555
00:35:20,679 --> 00:35:22,159
going to say, Oh, so you don't mind if I

556
00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:23,199
move into your apartment?

557
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,199
Speaker 2: Right, well, and are narco capitalists don't mind if they

558
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,519
move migrants into my apartment? So like fundamentally, you.

559
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, really they were so many of them really

560
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,880
need to go fuck themselves. I mean, I mean, I

561
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,360
saw I was going back and forth with a guy

562
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,119
today who was like, like, debate me on Israel. Debate

563
00:35:42,159 --> 00:35:45,199
me on Israel, Debate me on Israel, because I'm like, oh,

564
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,960
I mean, I know the history of Israel and I

565
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,920
know how it was founded and out of the opinion

566
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,800
if you found something on terrorism, you're always going to

567
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,880
have terrorism there. So anyway, but then what did I

568
00:35:56,079 --> 00:35:58,119
what do you find when you go into his tweets

569
00:35:58,639 --> 00:36:02,920
open borders, free trade, and then you know, well, do

570
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,760
you feel the same way about Israel. I mean, so

571
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,639
it's like these libertarian types, they're just oh, well, yeah,

572
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,320
if I say we shouldn't have open borders, that means

573
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,840
that I worship the border patrol, and that means that

574
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:21,199
I'm a boot liquor whatever did I.

575
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, there's They're anachronistic. It's one of the like

576
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:32,159
most BTFO political ideologies post twenty fifteen, with communism as

577
00:36:32,199 --> 00:36:37,360
a very close second. But ultimately these are materialists, which

578
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,639
I think is related to egotism, which is related to

579
00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:44,599
this obsession with private property mine, you know, delineation of

580
00:36:44,639 --> 00:36:51,400
what is mine, this this over elaborated legal artifice to

581
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,119
define what is mine. I mean, ultimately, in a folkish setting,

582
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,960
these questions answered themselves right, Like my if I leave

583
00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:04,079
my shirt at my brother's place, like there's not going

584
00:37:04,119 --> 00:37:07,239
to be World War three because my property, he's holding

585
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,519
my property. It's like it's whatever, I'll see him next week.

586
00:37:10,639 --> 00:37:13,920
It's not the end of the world. Because I think

587
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:22,239
also there's a certain assumption in a folkish, nationalistic America

588
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,960
first society of like, hey man, I love you, you know,

589
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,760
like we're related to each other, we come from the

590
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,760
same place, probably even literally, but metaphorically, you know, in

591
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,320
terms of the grand myth man myths that animate our lives,

592
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:43,199
like we're the same and these types of nerdish economic

593
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,960
questions which do need to be solved and at complex societies,

594
00:37:47,039 --> 00:37:49,119
obviously you need to think about those kinds of things.

595
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,320
But it's a fixation. It has a lot to do

596
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,679
with paranoia, I think all of Once we start highlighting

597
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,159
these psychological factors, the types of people become very clear

598
00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:02,159
who they are.

599
00:38:03,679 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: Well, you use the term sociopathy and the header there

600
00:38:08,519 --> 00:38:13,559
under individualism, anarchism, and sociopathy. So when you use sociopathy,

601
00:38:13,559 --> 00:38:14,400
how are you using it?

602
00:38:15,199 --> 00:38:18,079
Speaker 2: Uh? Yeah, that's so. It's one of these funny psychology

603
00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:22,360
words that has a million definitions. I gave my own

604
00:38:23,639 --> 00:38:26,559
loose ish definition in the book. I actually don't have

605
00:38:26,599 --> 00:38:27,719
it in front of me, so I don't remember what

606
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,199
I said. Do you have it?

607
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm looking for it right now. I can't find it,

608
00:38:32,679 --> 00:38:34,760
But go on, I'll I'll see if I can. I

609
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:35,400
can spot it.

610
00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:38,639
Speaker 2: The main thrust, because it's one of those things that

611
00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:43,079
like people confuse with psychopathy, right, and you know there's

612
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,280
there These are very poorly defined concepts, yet there they

613
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,559
do stand for something, and it means something when you

614
00:38:50,639 --> 00:38:54,880
use them. Psychopathy effectively, we're talking about, you know, in

615
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,639
loose colloquial terms, we're talking about the most dangerous, violent, abrasive,

616
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,519
non conforming members of society.

617
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have here, Okay, So it says sociopathy as

618
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,480
a concept is poorly defined within the disciplines of psychiatry

619
00:39:08,519 --> 00:39:12,360
and psychology, and, owing to its operational weakness, is greatly

620
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,199
abused by the late public and sadly professionals especially often

621
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,559
complated with other somewhat nebulously defined terms such as anti

622
00:39:20,599 --> 00:39:24,679
social and psychopath. Here, sociopath should be understood as an

623
00:39:24,679 --> 00:39:28,880
individual with an impoverished social feeling, often exhibited by the

624
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:37,360
following characteristics impulsivity, weak ego defenses, narcissism, irresponsibility, callousness, and

625
00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:39,559
attachment related anxiety.

626
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that covers it, because, if you want

627
00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:50,320
to think in a congenital sense, sociopathy very small representation

628
00:39:50,599 --> 00:39:54,840
in the overall population, not a lot of natural sociopaths,

629
00:39:56,039 --> 00:40:01,360
But we're mass producing people due to this intention to

630
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,079
destroy the family, destroy the community, destroy the nation, religion, borders,

631
00:40:05,119 --> 00:40:07,199
so on and so forth. I mean, if you encourage

632
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,280
people to get divorced. If you encourage people to be

633
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:14,639
sexually liberated, then that naturally has the consequence of weakening

634
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,480
the social unit we call the family. Children grow up

635
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,719
with fewer resources. Also think of like the crazy psychiatry

636
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,239
fads and child rearing fads over the last hundred years.

637
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,400
Each one's kind of like perverse and dysfunctional in his

638
00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:32,880
own unique way from the one that came before it.

639
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,280
So like, for example, like kids don't sleep with their parents.

640
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:41,320
You know, you don't nurse the children, you don't you

641
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,679
intentionally ignore the children. And some of these have caveats

642
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,320
like it's appropriate at certain times, under certain conditions for

643
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,280
certain people, et cetera, et cetera. But that's not how

644
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,639
America works, that's not how marketing works. And an idea

645
00:40:54,039 --> 00:40:57,320
is brought to people and we try to do this

646
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,159
one size fits all thing, which is not good. You

647
00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:04,199
get people with these attachment related disorders. Fundamentally, what that

648
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:09,440
means is while they didn't spend a lot of physical

649
00:41:10,119 --> 00:41:15,480
time with mom and dad, they are on a hormonal,

650
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:24,920
neurological probably other levels, malnourished, underdeveloped, and there's a very

651
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:29,679
limited window that infants and small children have to get

652
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:35,119
these resources, especially when it comes to social development. It's

653
00:41:35,159 --> 00:41:40,199
really like age five, age six, and the trend over

654
00:41:40,199 --> 00:41:44,159
the last fifteen years is to shove as many screens

655
00:41:44,159 --> 00:41:48,360
and images and highly stimulating things at ever younger children,

656
00:41:48,559 --> 00:41:51,639
so they're not socializing with people anyway. Then they go

657
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,000
through a crazy education system that's racially diverse, and blah

658
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,079
blah blah blah blah. What do you have. You have

659
00:41:57,119 --> 00:41:59,440
people who don't know how to develop relationships, who don't

660
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,480
actually on the structural level of their brain. They can't

661
00:42:03,559 --> 00:42:06,280
look at you and see you as a person with

662
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,199
a soul like that. They need to respect the dignity

663
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,320
of like all of these things that are kind of

664
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,159
I think second nature to people who maybe are older,

665
00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:17,840
grew up with a different way of life, had more

666
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:25,280
like put in more rounds interacting with people. So you

667
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,239
have this mass like phenomenon of kind of like an

668
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,679
artificial sociopathy. People are constantly to invoke the transactional thing

669
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,360
from earlier. They're constantly looking at other people as means

670
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,920
to some other end. They are in a fundamentally exploitative

671
00:42:42,559 --> 00:42:48,320
mode of social interaction, and they are themselves very distressed

672
00:42:48,679 --> 00:42:52,599
and suffering. Often to the point of some kind of

673
00:42:52,639 --> 00:43:01,159
addiction or otherwise impairment, fixation, fetish, what have you? Sex, politics, food, tattoos,

674
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:06,360
all of the above the thing. And I'll close it

675
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:11,159
off on this. I've got gab fever all night. I apologize, Like,

676
00:43:11,159 --> 00:43:13,679
like I said, I'm a younger guy. I turned thirty eight.

677
00:43:14,199 --> 00:43:17,039
It was very common still is, but when I was younger,

678
00:43:17,599 --> 00:43:22,920
like normal millennial discourse is is this kind of neurotic

679
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,880
of like am I normal? Can you? Can you affirm

680
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,760
that I'm normal? Are you secretly a sociopath? This paranoia

681
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,800
of like what laundry list of mental disorders do you have?

682
00:43:32,599 --> 00:43:34,199
How quickly can I find it out? And then what

683
00:43:34,199 --> 00:43:35,880
are we going to do about it? You know? For

684
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:37,480
some people will be like, let me find out so

685
00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:39,639
I can avoid you, and for other people it's like,

686
00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:43,199
let me find out so that I can never get

687
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:49,519
away from you, right Like anyway, point being the sociopathy

688
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,400
like is just the norm almost.

689
00:43:55,159 --> 00:43:58,159
Speaker 1: It also seems a lot of people point out that

690
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,719
so many people these days there when they refer to truth,

691
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,679
it's always something subjective, and it seems like if you're

692
00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:12,840
this radical individual, you know, this neoliberal kind of individual,

693
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,559
your morality is going to be based around how anything

694
00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:21,119
affects you. You can't have a universal morality if everyone's

695
00:44:21,159 --> 00:44:21,880
an individual.

696
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,079
Speaker 2: You also can't have political organization if everyone's an individual.

697
00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:30,199
So this is even more meaningfully the ultimate political outcome

698
00:44:30,199 --> 00:44:37,679
of individualism. If all justifications, all explanations, any any rationalization

699
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,400
you can offer has to come specifically from you, your

700
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,039
specific circumstance of life, from the exact moment you were

701
00:44:45,039 --> 00:44:47,719
born until exactly this moment. You can't have reference to

702
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,400
anything else. Like you are atomized. You're one node, but

703
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,760
all of the circuitry around you has been like smashed

704
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,599
with ambers, so you can't plug into the larger network.

705
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,760
And that's very pernicious. I mean, ultimately, with that like

706
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:05,400
type of lot, the question like how does this affect

707
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,679
you personally? Like that is a persecutor's logic. That is,

708
00:45:08,679 --> 00:45:12,480
someone who that's friend enemy stuff like I don't talk

709
00:45:12,519 --> 00:45:14,599
to you or my brother or my friend or my

710
00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:18,159
neighbor like that. I get involved because I realized that

711
00:45:18,199 --> 00:45:20,960
we're part of the same thing, and there's not really

712
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,880
a conflict or a contradiction between him as an individual

713
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:29,360
and the social ecology that he's plugged into like this

714
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,199
is a big problem with libertarians too, collectivism. Collectivism is

715
00:45:33,199 --> 00:45:37,119
like one of these still remaining boogie words in politics,

716
00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:40,840
and they only really see it with libertarians. But it's

717
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,280
like it's again, it's it has to do with egotism, right,

718
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,599
because there are always collectives. The type of social activity

719
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:53,440
is ultimately a collectivist activity. So I mean all this

720
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,519
spoils down to that. Jefferson Lee would say, as nationalists,

721
00:45:58,519 --> 00:46:02,480
the economic or the the the unit of society is

722
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,920
actually the nation itself, the people, right. But in neoliberal society,

723
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,880
it's just you, not even your kids, not even your

724
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,280
grandparents unless they want to blame you for things, shame

725
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:11,880
you for things.

726
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: But it seems that there is a group, and I

727
00:46:18,679 --> 00:46:22,639
think we know that pretty much down the middle when

728
00:46:22,639 --> 00:46:26,360
it comes to the most important things. You know, Republicans

729
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,360
and Democrats are going to get together. I mean, if

730
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,320
you're if you're having a vote on whether you know

731
00:46:31,639 --> 00:46:37,159
anti semitism is irrational and repugnant, everyone is going to

732
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,079
vote for that. If it's a vote for war, everyone

733
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,599
is going to you know, there's going to be very

734
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:45,880
few people who are going to to abstain or even

735
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,360
say no. It's always issues that where it's like, oh,

736
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:55,400
well it's like to like to financial systems or the

737
00:46:55,119 --> 00:46:57,880
two competing financial systems. Well, no, we're not going to

738
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,800
cut taxes now. Yes, we're going to cut taxes now.

739
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,320
It always seems to be like the things that do

740
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,000
cause the most control or cause the most damage to

741
00:47:10,119 --> 00:47:15,400
the system and the people financially and bodily, war sending

742
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:21,920
kids off to war for nothing. Those are right down

743
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,559
the middle. Okay, everything's good, we've given you the you're

744
00:47:26,559 --> 00:47:30,719
allowed to fight about this here. But it's the whole

745
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,960
elite theory thing too. You do have some people who

746
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,559
get together, five hundred and thirty five of them, and

747
00:47:36,599 --> 00:47:39,719
then you know, stretch it out a little bit from there,

748
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,840
who agree on things. But when everyone is a radical individual,

749
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:52,000
when everybody's a neoliberal individual, getting groups to get together

750
00:47:52,199 --> 00:47:59,679
to possibly push back or to even supplant what's existing

751
00:48:00,559 --> 00:48:03,480
makes it impossible. It's like they it's like they designed

752
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,119
the perfect system. If it was a hydrae, you wouldn't

753
00:48:06,119 --> 00:48:10,079
even know where to start cutting off heads because yeah, yeah, yeah,

754
00:48:10,119 --> 00:48:16,840
so yeah. The individualism thing also is a great tool

755
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,280
for them because there hundred and fifty million people can't

756
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,239
organize against what is essentially probably what two thousand.

757
00:48:26,199 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, there's there's a lot of aspects to what

758
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:28,440
you just said.

759
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: What was the devil? What was the angel devil saying

760
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:38,800
that I did I say something that you that made you? No?

761
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,039
Speaker 2: I just well, just I always think because as the

762
00:48:42,039 --> 00:48:45,320
older I get, the less psychologically inclined I become, or

763
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:46,639
in fact, I mean we should say, the more I

764
00:48:46,639 --> 00:48:51,639
think about these types of issues, the less psychology uh

765
00:48:52,159 --> 00:48:56,679
factors into my ultimate kind of analytical process. Not to

766
00:48:56,679 --> 00:49:01,480
say it's unimportant, because it's you know it, it's explicitly

767
00:49:01,559 --> 00:49:05,320
on a psychological battlefield that what you just said is

768
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,880
being waged, right, is by putting you into just your

769
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,239
body and blocking off all of the literally social resources

770
00:49:13,639 --> 00:49:15,960
that make us who we are, Like just on the

771
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:21,639
small level, or been like with the group friends and

772
00:49:21,679 --> 00:49:26,079
then the chat ended or the friend group fell apart,

773
00:49:26,199 --> 00:49:28,719
or maybe you just like checked out for a little

774
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,719
while and you felt like dumber or like less sharp

775
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:37,800
or less on your less like you normally are, because

776
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,559
actually you're like plugged, You're like plugged into the Avengers.

777
00:49:40,599 --> 00:49:44,199
Like Okay, now I have plus fifteen IQ points because

778
00:49:44,199 --> 00:49:45,840
the guy next to me is a super genius and

779
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,599
I've absorbed all of his knowledge, right, So, like, so

780
00:49:48,679 --> 00:49:52,760
much of what makes us great, even as individuals, are

781
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:58,119
the relations that we have. And to impose this program

782
00:49:58,159 --> 00:50:01,920
of individualism is to impose this program of ultimately kind

783
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,599
of psychologism, which makes us all prisoners of our own

784
00:50:06,559 --> 00:50:09,400
fears and anxieties, except for those of you know, people

785
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,960
in the audience who are extroverts and not neurotic. You know,

786
00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:15,280
I hate you. I hope you have a great life,

787
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,639
but I hate you the rest of us. You know,

788
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,559
it's it's this I'm imagining, like the guy on the

789
00:50:22,599 --> 00:50:25,880
train throwing the coal into the into the oven or whatever.

790
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,400
Like you've just got it. It's just endless coal. You

791
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,920
can just kind of keep like psychologically, you just have

792
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:36,440
continual resources to harm yourself because life is difficult. Being

793
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,559
in the body is weird. Nobody gets it right, But

794
00:50:38,639 --> 00:50:42,440
we all come from crazy circumstances. And there's a criminal,

795
00:50:42,519 --> 00:50:45,360
exploitative class at the top of everything. So it's not

796
00:50:45,559 --> 00:50:52,280
exactly you know, rosy pictures, rainbows things like that. However,

797
00:50:52,599 --> 00:50:55,639
there's no devil an angel. I just do like to

798
00:50:55,679 --> 00:50:59,320
emphasize that, you know, this is a program of containment.

799
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:03,039
These are the parameters through which that gets achieved. And

800
00:51:03,119 --> 00:51:05,920
so yeah, like if you can't get a couple of

801
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:11,199
people together to flyer or rally or protest or pass

802
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,000
around some kind of petition, I mean those first barriers,

803
00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:17,400
and they're the most important bearers. A lot of the

804
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:22,000
times are fundamentally psychological, Like seeing myself as a unit

805
00:51:22,119 --> 00:51:26,440
with Peter r. Kenonia's right, Like that's a psychological hurdle

806
00:51:26,639 --> 00:51:31,760
that you have to clear, not expecting. There's the joke

807
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:36,840
about like you know the guy who like meets hangs

808
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,000
out with his cousin from like Norway or Denmark and

809
00:51:39,039 --> 00:51:41,320
then gets a venmo for like seventy eight cents because

810
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,039
of half of the coffee you drink on the way

811
00:51:43,079 --> 00:51:45,840
to work together. Like that kind of like tit for

812
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:47,800
tat am I going to get everything out of Peter

813
00:51:48,079 --> 00:51:50,480
that Peter is getting out of me. Like that's not

814
00:51:51,519 --> 00:51:56,840
a normal response. If we're a family of folk, we think, okay,

815
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,639
we're gonna work all this out together. So yeah, I

816
00:51:59,639 --> 00:52:01,599
feel like I'm repeating myself a little bit, but I'll

817
00:52:01,679 --> 00:52:02,480
leave it a bet.

818
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,039
Speaker 1: People need to hear that. Let's finish on this what's chophobia.

819
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 2: It's the hatred of the familiar, or fear of the familiar,

820
00:52:12,199 --> 00:52:18,440
maybe even disgust of the familiar. It's what every Midwesterner,

821
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,199
every Midwestern eighteen year old, you know, just at a

822
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,119
fresh out of college who moves to New York that

823
00:52:24,199 --> 00:52:27,159
I've ever met, That's what they're all like, Oh my god,

824
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,880
Wyoming is so terrible. It's like, fuck you, I'll go

825
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:37,400
there for in a second. Let's stright place. It's well,

826
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,960
I say, this is someone who suffers it. Right, Like,

827
00:52:40,079 --> 00:52:43,079
if you want to again, on psychological terms, what is acophobia,

828
00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:48,000
it's high trade openness. Right, you are a novelty oriented person.

829
00:52:48,079 --> 00:52:54,360
You buy your temperament, experience lower levels of disgust at

830
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:59,480
unfamiliar or things that would typically that trigger discust. Right,

831
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:03,840
feel less discussed, You're more inclined to experiment, try new things.

832
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,960
You're more novelty seeking. You're probably less neurotic neurotic, meaning

833
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,679
the intensity of negative emotions that you experienced. Like sometimes

834
00:53:11,679 --> 00:53:14,079
we think of neuroticism as just like self attacking, but

835
00:53:14,199 --> 00:53:17,760
it's more like how hot does the engine get when

836
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,400
you're stressed? And if you're very neurotic, well, it gets

837
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,960
very hot, very quickly, and it takes you a very

838
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,920
long time or maybe never to totally decompress, not literally never.

839
00:53:27,199 --> 00:53:29,960
That would be like a very extreme case. Comorbidity is

840
00:53:30,039 --> 00:53:33,280
up to you, huh, but a certain type. But it's

841
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,440
also of the condition that we've inherited. Especially I want

842
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:41,760
to emphasize this, it's technologically facilitated. It is absolutely like

843
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,039
you would not see the kind of Jesus Christ get

844
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:49,360
me if there was not an ease of the ability

845
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,079
to get the fuck out of town. So, you know,

846
00:53:52,599 --> 00:53:57,000
travel being the way that it is, these things encourage

847
00:53:57,199 --> 00:54:02,480
psychological tendencies that have pros and con You know, I

848
00:54:02,519 --> 00:54:07,000
love Peter Gabriel's album that's also his like I'm a

849
00:54:07,039 --> 00:54:11,360
third worldist, you know, screw Whitey album. But it's great

850
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,119
and he's has a great ensemble of musicians and he's

851
00:54:14,119 --> 00:54:18,360
playing this kind of world style and it's interesting and

852
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:26,079
it's cool, but you can't live there and uh yeah,

853
00:54:26,119 --> 00:54:28,719
I mean the flip side, I guess is auchophelia. And

854
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,039
this might be like the conservative disease of too much

855
00:54:32,199 --> 00:54:37,239
veneration of tradition and too much kind of well to

856
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,719
be crass boot licking, right, like the extreme like a

857
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,400
peliac is effectively the boot licker, and the extreme likegophobic,

858
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:46,920
is going to be the you know, the race trader

859
00:54:47,039 --> 00:54:48,039
or just just the trader.

860
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,800
Speaker 1: It's funny that that came up because I was saying

861
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,079
on Twitter the other day that like the town I

862
00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:58,199
live in there, I have friends who their families have

863
00:54:58,199 --> 00:55:01,480
been here for two hundred years and they they own

864
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,000
their own land here, they owned businesses here, and even

865
00:55:05,039 --> 00:55:07,559
though you know, they went an hour and twenty minutes

866
00:55:07,559 --> 00:55:09,880
away to go to college, they came back and they

867
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,519
knew they were going to come back because they were

868
00:55:12,559 --> 00:55:16,800
continuing a tradition and continuing continue well a legacy. And

869
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:18,920
I think it's really interesting to find out that when

870
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,119
you start talking about that to people and you're like,

871
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,199
you know, it's not too late to start do that. Now,

872
00:55:25,559 --> 00:55:28,880
find a plot of land, find something, start building, you know,

873
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,599
start living, you know, as Thomas seven seven seven says,

874
00:55:31,599 --> 00:55:36,639
start living historically and teaching, you know, teaching your progeny

875
00:55:36,679 --> 00:55:39,920
how to do that. And the amount of pushback that

876
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,920
you can get from get from talking like that is

877
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,079
just you know, what if I want my kid, what

878
00:55:45,159 --> 00:55:47,480
if my kid meets somebody you know from another state,

879
00:55:47,519 --> 00:55:49,079
you know, and they want to get married with someone

880
00:55:49,159 --> 00:55:53,159
from another state, Well, he or she can move there,

881
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,679
you know, could move there if you have ten if

882
00:55:56,679 --> 00:55:58,800
you have ten acres, if you have twenty acres, Why

883
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,400
would you want him to go buy a house. Just

884
00:56:02,039 --> 00:56:04,320
build a house on the property and you know, stay

885
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,800
there and you know, build something and build a legacy

886
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,760
of some sort when you when you look at Monticello

887
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:13,159
and Mount Vernon in places like that, I mean, those

888
00:56:13,199 --> 00:56:17,719
were supposed to be legacies, and now they're museums. And

889
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,880
I think Monticello is now the museums awoke of some sort.

890
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:26,719
And I don't think that's aichophelia. I think that's just

891
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,440
the way people have lived and kept order within society

892
00:56:31,599 --> 00:56:37,719
for hundreds and hundreds of years until until we this

893
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,079
technological revolution, but also this individual revolution.

894
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 2: The And they would certainly like to pain When I

895
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,840
say they, I mean people who are opponents of our

896
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,840
worldview would certainly try to paint that as I mean,

897
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,440
they would take it a step further. Iphelic might be

898
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:57,199
kind of a sort of polite way, still derogatory ultimately

899
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,239
in this context, but they're going to take that to

900
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,400
the next step. I mean, they're just going to accuse

901
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,440
you of being like an in breeder, and then it

902
00:57:04,639 --> 00:57:13,360
immediately becomes some kind of dysgenic, disgusting thing, which ironically

903
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:17,559
or humorously enough, is like the opposite. You know, the

904
00:57:17,599 --> 00:57:20,960
thing that they're instituting is very much what they're accusing

905
00:57:21,039 --> 00:57:24,639
us of trying to promote. I would just say one thing.

906
00:57:24,679 --> 00:57:26,719
I mean again, it's also part of the political program.

907
00:57:26,719 --> 00:57:29,920
If you de industrialize major parts of the country, it

908
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,280
becomes a less attractive place to live. And what happens

909
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,320
to the people there. They get fat, they become addicts,

910
00:57:36,519 --> 00:57:38,360
they die early, They beat the shit out of their

911
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,559
kids and their wives, They fucking kill people. They turned

912
00:57:42,599 --> 00:57:45,599
the local law enforcement into just bullshit, They turned the

913
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:49,519
court system into everything decays, and young people grew up,

914
00:57:49,519 --> 00:57:52,880
and that young people who naturally have an inclination to

915
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:58,559
explore and persevere and test boundaries and are very much

916
00:57:58,599 --> 00:58:01,119
bored with the familiar. Actually, in the climate that we're in,

917
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,840
what else are they supposed to feel when they look

918
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,239
at the town they grew up in and know people

919
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:11,760
either leave or they die. That's you know, that's that's

920
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:16,119
a political program. And that's also something I think people

921
00:58:16,159 --> 00:58:17,280
don't understand all that. Well.

922
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,159
Speaker 1: I talked to friends and I'm like, you know, family,

923
00:58:21,199 --> 00:58:22,679
I wish I would have grown up in a family

924
00:58:22,679 --> 00:58:25,199
that would have put such a great importance on family

925
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,480
and the family, the family, land and everything. My my grandmother,

926
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,719
my grandparents had land in Puerto Rico that could have

927
00:58:32,719 --> 00:58:35,519
been handed down, but of course it got sold off

928
00:58:35,559 --> 00:58:38,679
like all boomers do and everything like that. I didn't

929
00:58:38,679 --> 00:58:42,079
want the money. I wanted, you know, I wanted the legacy.

930
00:58:43,039 --> 00:58:46,800
But the I'm talking to a friend of mine and

931
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,360
saying how important family is, like, well, my parents were

932
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,639
shiit my you know, my mother, my mother was a

933
00:58:51,639 --> 00:58:55,000
piece of shit. And it's like, well, why why do

934
00:58:55,079 --> 00:58:57,639
you think there was some kind of external circumstance. Do

935
00:58:57,679 --> 00:59:01,639
you think they grew up in a in a society

936
00:59:01,719 --> 00:59:06,480
that gave them this mentality that just poison their food,

937
00:59:06,559 --> 00:59:09,159
did all this stuff to them that made them become

938
00:59:10,039 --> 00:59:12,840
become like that? You know, it can all start with you,

939
00:59:13,199 --> 00:59:15,159
And I mean that's yeah.

940
00:59:15,239 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's trauma induced I hate to

941
00:59:17,519 --> 00:59:22,800
use that word, but or if it's more akin to

942
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:28,119
this individualism and egotism we're talking about. But you know, like,

943
00:59:28,239 --> 00:59:31,400
I not to get too personal. I mean, I love

944
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,840
my family. I'm glad I had the family that I had.

945
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:35,239
I'm glad I grew up where I grew up.

946
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 1: I like my.

947
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: Life, but it wasn't the greatest situation. But I always

948
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:40,760
felt and this is something I saw reflected in the

949
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:42,800
people who grew up around me, was that at a

950
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:46,199
certain age, you look at the people around you as

951
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:52,119
people who have had to answer the same challenges of

952
00:59:52,199 --> 00:59:55,039
life that you have to answer, and then you come

953
00:59:55,079 --> 00:59:59,079
to understand them in a more human way. I look

954
00:59:59,159 --> 01:00:01,559
back on my parent parents, and of all the things

955
01:00:01,639 --> 01:00:05,599
I'm dissatisfied with now as an adult, I think back, well,

956
01:00:05,599 --> 01:00:10,320
when they were my age, well, they probably thought the

957
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:14,719
whole world was like constantly on the precipice of nuclear abomination,

958
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,119
you know, like they row They really thought that right

959
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:21,079
for decades, they really thought that it was a real thing.

960
01:00:21,719 --> 01:00:25,039
And before that everyone they knew had fucking pieces of

961
01:00:25,079 --> 01:00:30,199
them blown off in Vietnam or Korea or w W two. Uh.

962
01:00:30,239 --> 01:00:34,559
And before that, maybe they grew up poor, and maybe

963
01:00:34,639 --> 01:00:38,000
their parents lived through the there lived through the Great Depression.

964
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,719
Maybe they were immigrants and they came here and they

965
01:00:40,719 --> 01:00:44,880
had all kinds of like generally speaking, you know, like

966
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:48,480
when when lefties talked about how awful and brutish and

967
01:00:48,599 --> 01:00:53,159
violent and terrible history has been, they're right, it's it's

968
01:00:53,199 --> 01:00:54,320
a it's a rough go.

969
01:00:54,679 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 1: You know.

970
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 2: The twentieth century was literally us just like, how do

971
01:00:58,039 --> 01:01:00,920
we fucking kill more? How do we kill more European people?

972
01:01:01,199 --> 01:01:08,519
Industrial baby, let's do it. Your parents inherited hellscape, grandparents

973
01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:12,079
inherited hellescape, your great grandparents. We've actually, maybe for only

974
01:01:12,119 --> 01:01:15,559
a couple of generations, have kind of had it pretty

975
01:01:15,559 --> 01:01:17,199
good where you know, you didn't have to go through

976
01:01:17,239 --> 01:01:19,639
child labor, you didn't have to like all the things

977
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:23,079
you could. You had an adolescence. That was the thing.

978
01:01:23,119 --> 01:01:25,519
One hundred years ago, there was no there was no

979
01:01:25,559 --> 01:01:28,280
idea of let kids be kids. Oh don't you know,

980
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:30,559
don't give little timmy too much homework. There was that

981
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,960
idea did not exist. Turn of the century. Twentieth century

982
01:01:34,039 --> 01:01:38,039
British psychiatry was telling parents just short of beat your kids,

983
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:39,719
it's good for them.

984
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 1: Right.

985
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 2: So this is all a very different thing, and maybe

986
01:01:44,559 --> 01:01:46,679
I'm willing to bet it has more to do with

987
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:50,880
the psychological dimensions of suffering and trauma that people don't

988
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,639
look at these prior generations, see that humanity and want

989
01:01:54,679 --> 01:01:57,880
to be the torch bear for that tradition. That's where

990
01:01:57,880 --> 01:01:59,840
I ended up, That's where most of the people I

991
01:01:59,920 --> 01:02:03,440
know ended up. And if you want to end up

992
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,639
there too, I think logical questions cool.

993
01:02:06,679 --> 01:02:09,239
Speaker 1: All right, remind everybody where they can find your stuff again,

994
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:10,320
and I'll end the end.

995
01:02:10,199 --> 01:02:14,719
Speaker 2: This Jneil dot substack dot com. That's for the Substack

996
01:02:15,119 --> 01:02:21,079
on YouTube, Psychopolitics on X, Psychopolitics with the K, and

997
01:02:21,119 --> 01:02:24,239
then check out Imperium Press for American extremists, and then

998
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,880
probably in like three weeks understanding conspiracy theories. And thank

999
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,159
you again so much, Peter for your patience and your

1000
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:30,880
your invitation.

1001
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 1: No problem, and come back real soon and we'll talk

1002
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:39,360
about narratives or something like that. Absolutely, thank you. Josh.

1003
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,280
I want to welcome everyone back to the Peakingana Show.

1004
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:49,400
Josh Neil is back after after a long hiatus. What's happening, Josh.

1005
01:02:48,039 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good to be back. I appreciate the invitation.

1006
01:02:52,079 --> 01:02:54,119
As I was saying to you before we went live,

1007
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:55,760
this is live, I think.

1008
01:02:56,239 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, now we're we're recording, we're just hanging out

1009
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,360
you Nick, As.

1010
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,079
Speaker 2: I was saying before I had to what's the saying,

1011
01:03:03,079 --> 01:03:05,559
I had to get my ducks in a row, and

1012
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,559
I did and it was good because it helped me

1013
01:03:09,599 --> 01:03:12,360
put a lot of things into focus. And I feel like.

1014
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:14,239
Speaker 1: A lot of my.

1015
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 2: Energy in this space, this community has gotten like laser focused,

1016
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,559
much narrower, much more refined. Like I'm so much happier

1017
01:03:22,559 --> 01:03:25,639
with my writing. And that's obviously what we're here to

1018
01:03:25,639 --> 01:03:27,599
talk about. So, yeah, thanks for asking me on.

1019
01:03:28,199 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so. I've done as much as I can

1020
01:03:34,519 --> 01:03:41,239
to stay away from this topic in my in my episodes,

1021
01:03:41,559 --> 01:03:44,559
in my sub stack, I bring it up here and there.

1022
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:48,800
But the thing I liked about and we're talking about

1023
01:03:49,199 --> 01:03:52,400
the woke, right, something that it looks like James Lindsay

1024
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,639
might have came up with, and you know, and then

1025
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:57,599
a bunch of other midwits are running with like Constantine

1026
01:03:57,639 --> 01:04:01,920
kissing and people like that. And the reason I decided

1027
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:04,199
I wanted to talk about it is because after I

1028
01:04:04,239 --> 01:04:09,519
read your substacle about it that UNS picked up. I was,

1029
01:04:10,199 --> 01:04:12,199
you come at it from a completely different angle than

1030
01:04:12,199 --> 01:04:14,760
most people. Most people are like here, You're coming at

1031
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,599
it from actually a historical angle and comparing it to

1032
01:04:17,639 --> 01:04:21,599
something that's happened in the past. So what was what

1033
01:04:21,719 --> 01:04:23,880
was your reaction the first time you heard the term

1034
01:04:24,119 --> 01:04:24,679
woke right?

1035
01:04:27,079 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 2: Well, it made me think of and I wrote this

1036
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:31,920
in the essay, but it made me think of when

1037
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:36,639
people started using SJW against Trump people back in the day.

1038
01:04:37,599 --> 01:04:40,840
I mean I was, I'm you know, we're both not

1039
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:44,760
spring chickens per se. We were both like fully formed

1040
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,519
adults ten years ago. So we have a really good

1041
01:04:47,559 --> 01:04:51,519
memory of like who the players were, what ideas were happening,

1042
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,920
where the culture was moving. And you know, I wasn't

1043
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:59,239
alt right or a nationalist or anything until after basically

1044
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,039
Election Day twenty sixteen, but I was online and I

1045
01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:04,199
followed all the memes. I followed all the stuff that

1046
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:08,840
kind of trickled upwards to YouTube and like Stefan Molyneux

1047
01:05:09,159 --> 01:05:12,679
and people like that and or Scott Adams, and so

1048
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:18,280
I remember the anti SJW moment. I guess some people

1049
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:20,119
who were plugged into gamer gate would say, you know,

1050
01:05:20,159 --> 01:05:22,559
it had something to do with that too, And so

1051
01:05:22,599 --> 01:05:24,960
I remember, like for a couple of years, like twenty

1052
01:05:25,039 --> 01:05:29,039
ten to twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, like social justice, social

1053
01:05:29,159 --> 01:05:32,239
justice sat, social justice Warrior. And then the moment that

1054
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,519
there was the Trump right came in and was starting

1055
01:05:35,519 --> 01:05:38,119
to really be effective pushing back against all of the

1056
01:05:39,079 --> 01:05:43,920
crazy late Obama era politics. Suddenly that got turned around

1057
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,400
on people like me who were just like, you know,

1058
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:49,840
I thought I was just being like a rational, normal person,

1059
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,119
like enormy with like my head on a swivel. But

1060
01:05:53,159 --> 01:05:55,159
now suddenly it's like, oh, now we're going to turn

1061
01:05:55,239 --> 01:05:59,039
this this rhetoric back around on you, because now we've

1062
01:05:59,079 --> 01:06:02,920
got to control you, like like we've scapegoaded all these

1063
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:05,639
people who are not out and now you're the problem,

1064
01:06:05,719 --> 01:06:07,079
and so we're gonna throw it at you. So it

1065
01:06:07,119 --> 01:06:12,079
made me think of when SJW was was turned on

1066
01:06:12,159 --> 01:06:15,599
the right wing. And so my first thought after that,

1067
01:06:15,719 --> 01:06:17,760
or my second thought, I guess, was just like, Okay,

1068
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,480
this is just a slur, Like this is very obviously

1069
01:06:20,519 --> 01:06:24,679
a smear to again kind of go after the harder

1070
01:06:24,719 --> 01:06:27,679
wing of the Trump right, but also to go after

1071
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:34,079
like real nationalists, real identitarians, or real conservatives, real Christians,

1072
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:38,320
basically people with a spine and the backbone who are

1073
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,199
willing to call a spade a spade and I'm not

1074
01:06:40,239 --> 01:06:44,480
going to play euphemistic word games and step around the

1075
01:06:44,519 --> 01:06:48,559
thorny issues. So those were my first thoughts, and then

1076
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,840
I also kind of thought it wouldn't stick. But he

1077
01:06:52,039 --> 01:06:54,800
but James Lindsay has like really like a dog with

1078
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,679
a bone, he just keeps He's kept putting it back

1079
01:06:57,719 --> 01:07:00,719
out there to the point where he starts building like

1080
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:04,519
a coalition with that the triggeronometry people. And then when

1081
01:07:04,519 --> 01:07:06,760
that I guess this would have been a week ago,

1082
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:09,719
maybe a week in a day, when that clip went

1083
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:12,920
on Twitter, like there's a light bulb moment, I was like, Oh,

1084
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,719
this is because he actually explained what he meant by

1085
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:20,239
woke right. He gave this whole sort of counter narrative

1086
01:07:21,079 --> 01:07:24,679
against our worldview. And I was like, oh, I know

1087
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:28,000
what you're doing now, Like you're actually trying to put

1088
01:07:28,119 --> 01:07:32,760
forth this other worldview and this this is familiar. I've

1089
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:33,880
seen this movie before.

1090
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:38,639
Speaker 1: What I thought is most interesting about it was it

1091
01:07:38,719 --> 01:07:43,119
was coming from somebody and then adopted by other people

1092
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:47,559
who were I didn't leave the left. The left left

1093
01:07:47,639 --> 01:07:54,239
meet people and you Normally when something like this happens,

1094
01:07:54,559 --> 01:07:58,519
it's usually the quote unquote right wing that's doing it.

1095
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,280
You know, Joanah Goldberg out liberal fascism or something like that.

1096
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:06,239
So he can accuse anybody who's you know, to the

1097
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:13,039
right of eleanor Roosevelt of being a fascist. And yeah,

1098
01:08:13,039 --> 01:08:15,000
that's what I saw. It's like, okay, so this is

1099
01:08:15,079 --> 01:08:24,439
like IDW adjacent you know, intellectual dork web people adjacent

1100
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:29,279
who And the first thing I thought was Lindsey, he's

1101
01:08:29,319 --> 01:08:34,079
just grasping because he's kind of irrelevant. He's blown his

1102
01:08:34,199 --> 01:08:37,680
load on what he does. Okay, you explain to a

1103
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:42,319
bunch of people who are too you know, are too

1104
01:08:42,319 --> 01:08:45,079
offended by Paul Gottfried to go read what he wrote

1105
01:08:45,119 --> 01:08:47,399
twenty five years ago where he could tell you exactly

1106
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:50,079
what this whole woke stuff is. And he was a

1107
01:08:50,119 --> 01:08:54,800
prophet back then, and he's writing two right wingers. But

1108
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:58,560
you know, right wingers always want the approval of the left.

1109
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:00,960
They don't want the approval of anybody to their right,

1110
01:09:01,239 --> 01:09:04,840
because you know that those are just Nazis. But yeah,

1111
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:09,079
that was the thing that it was. These the those left,

1112
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:15,279
the left left me people. You cannot entertain them, you

1113
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:19,760
cannot give them the time of day, you cannot platform them.

1114
01:09:20,159 --> 01:09:22,439
They will always stab you in the back I don't

1115
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:25,239
how the fuck people don't know this. I did that

1116
01:09:25,279 --> 01:09:28,720
with somebody with like one specific person in the past,

1117
01:09:29,199 --> 01:09:32,520
one specific person I did that with in my libertarian days,

1118
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:37,479
and I learned deleted all those episodes, repented, and it's like,

1119
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,399
it's not going to happen if I have a leftist on,

1120
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:41,920
It's going to be a leftist who's not here to

1121
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:45,119
talk about leftism or rightism. They're an expert on like

1122
01:09:45,279 --> 01:09:49,439
Ukraine or something like that. You know, So, isn't it weird?

1123
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:51,960
Isn't it weird that it's the left left? The left

1124
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:52,800
left us? Guys?

1125
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking about that last night, and it

1126
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:02,720
the thing that I guess there's two things that makes

1127
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:08,760
that suspect. One, these are not people with agency, so

1128
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:11,479
it's not like they that's it's it's in the phrase

1129
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:14,520
the left. I didn't leave the left. The left left me.

1130
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:16,920
In other words, you were totally fine with the way

1131
01:10:17,039 --> 01:10:20,479
everything was happening, the direction the country was going, in

1132
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:24,720
the way your own party operated, but actually your party

1133
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,399
wasn't happy with it. Your party was like, we don't

1134
01:10:27,399 --> 01:10:30,079
need you anymore. So these are not agency. These are

1135
01:10:30,119 --> 01:10:32,119
not people with agency, Like they didn't come to this

1136
01:10:32,199 --> 01:10:35,720
Eureka moment where they suddenly realized that that they were,

1137
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:37,960
you know, on the wrong side of history or whatever.

1138
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:42,840
So and they also like don't have any self reflective

1139
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:45,960
ability either. They just they think that they were always

1140
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:49,279
in the right and you know, they were always morally correct,

1141
01:10:49,359 --> 01:10:54,680
not politically right, and that the left just got too wacky.

1142
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:58,880
But really what happened was the left, you know left

1143
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:02,520
progressive liberal is and had somewhere else who wanted to go,

1144
01:11:04,319 --> 01:11:06,119
had scheduled to keep up with We got to get

1145
01:11:06,119 --> 01:11:08,960
to the next stop. We have to wage the next

1146
01:11:09,079 --> 01:11:12,479
battle in the culture war. And and now you know,

1147
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:16,159
the left left me. Those people are now just they're

1148
01:11:16,199 --> 01:11:19,199
the latest scapegoats. And that's kind of what like the

1149
01:11:19,239 --> 01:11:23,279
same thing with the SJW thing. It's like, Okay, clearly

1150
01:11:23,319 --> 01:11:27,640
Trump comes in, the political culture is different. We need

1151
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:30,800
somebody to hold the bag for us, and we'll dump

1152
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:34,600
it on BuzzFeed, We'll dump it on Vox, will dump

1153
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:39,199
it on blue haired crazies, We'll dump it on people

1154
01:11:39,239 --> 01:11:41,720
that are not useful to us anymore. And that's the

1155
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:45,279
same thing with woke. It's like, okays, as people are

1156
01:11:45,279 --> 01:11:47,680
saying on Twitter, you know, woke was defeated at the

1157
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:53,560
ballot box. I don't asterisk asterisk, I don't totally condone

1158
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,039
that statement, but just for the sake of conversation, you know,

1159
01:11:56,119 --> 01:12:00,960
things are different and some people have to go. The

1160
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:03,279
regime has to kind of cut some dead weight in

1161
01:12:03,399 --> 01:12:07,039
order to pivot whatever is going to happen over the

1162
01:12:07,079 --> 01:12:09,319
next four years. It has to do something different, and

1163
01:12:09,399 --> 01:12:12,119
that means getting rid of things that don't work anymore.

1164
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:16,600
And so this woke left thing is just it's now

1165
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:20,680
a scapegoat that lots of people in the establishment are,

1166
01:12:21,159 --> 01:12:25,479
whether cynically or honestly or whatever, are willing to dispose

1167
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:27,720
of and maybe even look at a little bit critically,

1168
01:12:28,159 --> 01:12:30,479
so they can sacrifice that. Now you can call the

1169
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:34,000
new enemies, which is people like us, people who put

1170
01:12:34,039 --> 01:12:38,199
Trump in office, people who liked Project twenty twenty five,

1171
01:12:39,279 --> 01:12:42,199
so on and so forth, people who are supporting Daniel Penny.

1172
01:12:42,239 --> 01:12:45,920
By the way, he just beat another count today. So

1173
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:50,119
we need to be dealt with, and they've got this

1174
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:53,800
convenient tool. Just as a final thought, is I kind

1175
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:58,239
of admire the way that the system really can repurpose

1176
01:12:59,039 --> 01:13:02,399
everything that happens, Like they can turn a bad thing

1177
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:05,199
into a good thing. So like Woke was this horse

1178
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:08,079
that they rode into or wrote in, you know, rode

1179
01:13:08,119 --> 01:13:11,119
into power on and then it became something that was

1180
01:13:11,159 --> 01:13:15,319
not feasible for them anymore or problematic, but it still

1181
01:13:15,319 --> 01:13:17,319
has a use for them. It's still so it's still

1182
01:13:17,319 --> 01:13:20,000
a cudgel they can beat us with. So I just

1183
01:13:20,079 --> 01:13:22,760
I think there's something kind of darkly funny about that.

1184
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:26,119
But yeah, those are my thoughts.

1185
01:13:26,119 --> 01:13:30,800
Speaker 1: Something you said there about how there was a it

1186
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:34,399
was a train there. You know, Leftism is this train

1187
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:38,000
and it's moving and it took a direction. It went

1188
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:40,800
in a direction that they they didn't want to follow,

1189
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:44,159
where they had to get off. Yeah. I've been reading

1190
01:13:44,199 --> 01:13:47,880
this book The Demon and Democracy by Raizard Lagutko, and

1191
01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:50,479
he talks about this. He's he basically says, if you

1192
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:55,119
have a political ideology that is a path that it's

1193
01:13:55,319 --> 01:13:58,079
you're going somewhere with it. If it's not like you're

1194
01:13:59,319 --> 01:14:02,920
seizing power and saying stop, this is who we are.

1195
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:10,439
We're we're tradcath we're you know, right, we're right wingers,

1196
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:14,199
where national socialists, whatever the fuck it is. If you're

1197
01:14:14,199 --> 01:14:17,119
not if you're not taking power to say this is

1198
01:14:17,159 --> 01:14:21,239
where if you're looking at a path going forward, you're

1199
01:14:21,239 --> 01:14:25,399
a liberal. You're trying, you're trying to move in a

1200
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:28,479
direction to make things better and better and better. No,

1201
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:31,880
there's already some that's not the goal of politics. That

1202
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:34,720
should be like your personal life. That should be your

1203
01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:39,000
church life. Maybe your church wants to has goals, but

1204
01:14:39,039 --> 01:14:42,199
your politics can't have goals. Your politics have to be

1205
01:14:42,239 --> 01:14:46,399
something that stays in one place and protects you so

1206
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:49,960
that you and it's not trying to move you anywhere.

1207
01:14:50,119 --> 01:14:52,680
Because if it's trying to move you somewhere, you have

1208
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:54,359
to go with it. If you don't go with it,

1209
01:14:54,399 --> 01:14:56,319
if you decide to go with it, now you're on

1210
01:14:56,359 --> 01:15:00,600
the path of it going left or right or everywhere,

1211
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:02,359
and you're basically screwed.

1212
01:15:05,399 --> 01:15:06,560
Speaker 2: Yeah I agree.

1213
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:11,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, So all right in the article, and here's the

1214
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:17,319
thing that I think you brought up that really no

1215
01:15:17,359 --> 01:15:20,760
one else has brought up. You had a heading called

1216
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:25,920
the New Paranoid Style, and you bring up Richard Hofstetter.

1217
01:15:26,159 --> 01:15:29,600
Why don't you get into exactly why you bring up

1218
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:33,399
Hostetter and how you relate it to this wook right thing.

1219
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:38,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I this is a kind of a convenient

1220
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:42,199
thing for me because I've been reading up on the

1221
01:15:42,199 --> 01:15:44,920
post war consensus the last couple of years for a

1222
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:47,800
lot of my writing, and it started with Carl Popper.

1223
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:50,960
Last time we spoke, I think, which was back in February,

1224
01:15:51,399 --> 01:15:53,880
was just before my new book, my most recent book

1225
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:57,760
came out called Understanding Conspiracy Theories, and it was very

1226
01:15:57,840 --> 01:16:01,119
much based on the idea that a big part of

1227
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:05,880
contemporary conspiratorial culture has to do with the development of

1228
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:09,720
the post war consensus. And James Lindsay on his recent

1229
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:14,479
Trigonometry appearance, and this I considered to be a major

1230
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:21,000
own goal, like a crazy faux pas. He went ahead

1231
01:16:21,039 --> 01:16:23,880
and he basically spilled the beans on our worldview, and

1232
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:26,079
he said it in half the time it takes us

1233
01:16:26,079 --> 01:16:29,479
to say it. He said it maybe more articulately than

1234
01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:32,079
a lot of us can say it. He named a

1235
01:16:32,079 --> 01:16:34,760
lot of the players involved. I mean, he showed all

1236
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:36,800
of the receipts. It was really kind of impressive. It's

1237
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:40,239
like if you wanted the elevator pitch for the radical

1238
01:16:40,319 --> 01:16:43,000
right or the nationalist right, like you could clip out

1239
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,680
that section. And he talks about how well the woke

1240
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:49,319
right believes in this thing called the post the kooky

1241
01:16:49,399 --> 01:16:53,279
post war consensus, this crazy idea of a post war consensus.

1242
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:56,720
And I had been reading about Richard Hofstadter, who was

1243
01:16:56,760 --> 01:17:00,359
a celebrated historian throughout the forties and fifties. He's a

1244
01:17:00,359 --> 01:17:06,600
New Yorker like me. He's from Buffalo, ethnically Jewish, but American,

1245
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:10,359
and he was an avowed American liberal. In his youth.

1246
01:17:10,399 --> 01:17:13,479
He was a Marxist. Like a lot of people at

1247
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:16,199
that time, he was a Marxist. I believe he may

1248
01:17:16,199 --> 01:17:20,720
have even been affiliated with the American Communist Party. And

1249
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:23,359
like a lot of people of his ilk at that time,

1250
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:29,479
when communism in Russia changed moved in a more Stalinist direction,

1251
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:33,960
people like hof Staddard said, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, this

1252
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:36,720
is the left leaving me kind of thing, like whoa

1253
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:38,560
pumped the brakes, dude, we don't want to do this.

1254
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:42,399
And you know, my suspicion, which I think is born

1255
01:17:42,399 --> 01:17:45,000
out historically, has a lot to do with the fact

1256
01:17:45,039 --> 01:17:49,279
that Stalin moved Russia into a more kind of ethnic,

1257
01:17:50,279 --> 01:17:55,680
sort of nationalistic, sort of traditional culture due to moving

1258
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:58,520
into a wartime footing, due to all kinds of things

1259
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:02,119
that were happening. So it wasn't Bolshevism anymore. It wasn't

1260
01:18:02,199 --> 01:18:05,119
Leninism anymore. It wasn't what the kinds of things that

1261
01:18:05,359 --> 01:18:08,239
people like cough stat Are saw in it. It wasn't

1262
01:18:08,239 --> 01:18:14,239
that intensely liberalizing political force that it was early on,

1263
01:18:14,279 --> 01:18:16,159
because when Lenin came in, and I'm not a historian,

1264
01:18:17,199 --> 01:18:19,439
I don't really have the greatest understanding of Soviet Russia,

1265
01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:21,760
but you know, some of the things that Lenin and

1266
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:24,840
the Bolsheviks did when they first came in was liberalize

1267
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:29,960
a lot of things abortion, marriage laws, you know, sexuality,

1268
01:18:30,039 --> 01:18:33,920
sexual sexual ethics, things that look a lot like what

1269
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,199
liberalism has done here and around the world is what

1270
01:18:37,279 --> 01:18:39,920
happened there. And so obviously people like cof Status saw

1271
01:18:40,039 --> 01:18:43,680
that and they said, hey, that's great. Stalin comes in,

1272
01:18:44,159 --> 01:18:48,279
changes the direction of things more religious, more ethnic, more chauvinistic,

1273
01:18:48,399 --> 01:18:52,199
more chest thumping. You know, he's a Georgian bank robber.

1274
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:56,319
Stalin so's he's a strong man. And that didn't appeal

1275
01:18:56,319 --> 01:18:59,720
to people like cough Statter, so opstat are pivots, dis

1276
01:19:00,279 --> 01:19:06,600
his communists passed, and disavows his history, his historic material

1277
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:10,600
history history. I forget what the phrase is. The Marxist

1278
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:13,359
kind of genealogical method, historical materialism.

1279
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:16,880
Speaker 1: He disavows dialectical materialism.

1280
01:19:17,039 --> 01:19:20,560
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, and he starts moving in this

1281
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:25,199
direction of what's called consensus history now at the time

1282
01:19:25,399 --> 01:19:28,760
in the United States, consensus history. Again, this has been

1283
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:33,560
thirties forties roundabout. There was how a lot of historians

1284
01:19:34,239 --> 01:19:37,000
viewed history. That's how they did a lot of their

1285
01:19:37,159 --> 01:19:40,039
history writing. Charles A. Beard being a good example of this.

1286
01:19:41,079 --> 01:19:45,079
Charles A. Beard basically kind of put forth his own,

1287
01:19:46,279 --> 01:19:48,720
if you want to say, like I say this, very

1288
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:52,680
very loosely, sort of his own American spin on what

1289
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:57,159
people might think of as a kind of Marxist historiography.

1290
01:19:57,159 --> 01:20:04,640
Because he emphasized economic class a conflict, not using Marxist language,

1291
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:08,920
not on Marxist terms, not without other Marxist baggage, he's

1292
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:13,560
often been confused or interpreted as a Marxist historian. As

1293
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:16,359
far as I can tell, that's not the case. But anyway,

1294
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:23,920
Hofstadter comes in and he makes some alterations, adjustments to

1295
01:20:24,119 --> 01:20:28,760
this Beardy and hypothesis, and as a result, he's kind

1296
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:32,560
of given he's branded as the new face of consensus history,

1297
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:39,239
and he's looking at things like educational reform over the

1298
01:20:39,279 --> 01:20:42,000
course of American history. He's looking at things like the

1299
01:20:42,039 --> 01:20:46,399
emergence of populist parties over the course of American history.

1300
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:50,039
He's looking at things like gun rights, the gun culture

1301
01:20:50,079 --> 01:20:53,039
in the United States, and as is relevant to this

1302
01:20:53,159 --> 01:20:56,800
essay in the nineteen sixties, he's looking at what he

1303
01:20:56,880 --> 01:21:00,439
called pseudo conservatism, which would have been at that time,

1304
01:21:01,039 --> 01:21:06,760
the Barry Goldwater presidential candidacy, the John Birch Society, it

1305
01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:10,600
would have been McCarthy and the Red Scares. And he's

1306
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:15,159
calling this pseudo conservatism. It's his way of sort of

1307
01:21:16,399 --> 01:21:21,960
smearing the most populist wing of the American right at

1308
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:24,760
his time, in the same way that James Lindsay is

1309
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:28,199
doing today with this idea of the woke right. And

1310
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:32,399
he's basically saying that, well, you have this group of

1311
01:21:32,399 --> 01:21:38,399
people who are engaging in a sort of analysis of

1312
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:44,000
power relations, but they're doing it because they're parochial, backwoods

1313
01:21:44,159 --> 01:21:47,880
yokels who are paranoid and mentally ill. And that was

1314
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:50,680
the essay Paranoid style and American politics, talking about the

1315
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:54,880
John Birch Society, talking about Barry Goldwater, talking about all

1316
01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:58,279
of this kind of aggressive conservative energy that was developing

1317
01:21:58,319 --> 01:22:01,560
at that time. Of course, they needed to do something

1318
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:04,680
with They didn't want that to become hegemonic in the

1319
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:08,000
United States. When I say they, I mean the progressive Liberals,

1320
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:11,840
other factions in the United States at that time. So

1321
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:16,359
that eventually got published a year later in a collection

1322
01:22:16,399 --> 01:22:21,039
of essays, and I just it just looks that there's

1323
01:22:21,039 --> 01:22:26,079
a couple of things in the way that Hofstadter presented

1324
01:22:26,079 --> 01:22:31,159
his case that was just very similar to me as

1325
01:22:31,199 --> 01:22:34,079
to how James Lindsay presented his picture of the woke right.

1326
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:41,199
In both cases, they're they're they're presenting the narrative from

1327
01:22:41,239 --> 01:22:45,439
the point of view of their opposition. In the case

1328
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:48,039
of James Lindsay, he's walking us through the development of

1329
01:22:48,079 --> 01:22:52,159
the post war consensus. He's walking us through Bill Buckley

1330
01:22:52,159 --> 01:22:55,680
in the National Review, kicking out the real conservatives. He's

1331
01:22:55,760 --> 01:22:59,720
he's he's name dropping all of these intellectuals who are

1332
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:03,600
black listed from kind of academia and the popular culture,

1333
01:23:04,079 --> 01:23:07,000
like Karl Schmidt. But then at the very end of it,

1334
01:23:07,279 --> 01:23:10,399
after basically laying out all the facts and laying out

1335
01:23:10,399 --> 01:23:14,840
all the receipts, he just says, but it's woke. But

1336
01:23:15,439 --> 01:23:18,920
all of this truth okay, okay, okay, okay, but it's woke.

1337
01:23:19,119 --> 01:23:22,279
Now forget about it, which is basically what Hofstadter did.

1338
01:23:22,520 --> 01:23:28,279
He's talking about the ethnic replacement of German Irish Catholics

1339
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:34,680
and Anglo Saxon Protestants. He's talking about well, he's talking

1340
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:38,039
about the John Birch Society and the resistance against communists.

1341
01:23:38,039 --> 01:23:40,800
He's talking about Robert Welch in the Birch Society, he's

1342
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:43,840
talking about McCarthy, and he's laying out these facts and

1343
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:46,680
an at the very end of it, we have at

1344
01:23:46,680 --> 01:23:48,600
the pivotal moment where you have to either say, like,

1345
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:51,239
they're right, we should do X as a result of this,

1346
01:23:51,319 --> 01:23:55,239
he says, but they're paranoid, and so we can swipe

1347
01:23:55,239 --> 01:23:59,239
it under the rug and it's illegitimate and it doesn't matter.

1348
01:23:59,319 --> 01:24:02,880
And they're all creat kooks and they're all parochial. They've

1349
01:24:02,920 --> 01:24:06,319
got their their pitchforks and their torches and they don't

1350
01:24:06,319 --> 01:24:09,159
really know anything. And there's some really really remarkable things

1351
01:24:09,159 --> 01:24:11,920
he says in the book, Like he uses the example,

1352
01:24:12,199 --> 01:24:15,000
I don't know if you're one of these people that

1353
01:24:15,039 --> 01:24:17,319
gets into this kind of stuff. But he brings up

1354
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:19,159
floride in the water supply.

1355
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:23,920
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I'm just familiar with it.

1356
01:24:24,199 --> 01:24:28,079
Speaker 2: So he says, there's one passage where he says, uh,

1357
01:24:28,159 --> 01:24:30,920
and this is very Lakanian. Lacan Is a French was

1358
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:37,720
a French psychoanalyst. There's a famous quote attributed to him. Uh,

1359
01:24:37,800 --> 01:24:39,920
if your wife is cheating on you, if you if

1360
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:42,159
you fear that, even if you let me walk it back,

1361
01:24:42,560 --> 01:24:44,560
if you fear that your wife is cheating on you

1362
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:48,680
and she is, you're still paranoid for worrying about it.

1363
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:50,800
Like so to chew on that for a second, Like

1364
01:24:50,840 --> 01:24:54,600
that's a crazy kind of statement to make. Hofstetter does

1365
01:24:54,680 --> 01:24:59,399
the same thing. He's like, even if the government put

1366
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:03,000
fluoride in the water supply as a form of social control,

1367
01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:08,199
political control, and they were doing it to buttress a

1368
01:25:08,319 --> 01:25:12,279
larger socialist agenda, you would be crazy for thinking of that.

1369
01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:14,159
And now you read that in twenty twenty four, and

1370
01:25:14,199 --> 01:25:16,800
it's like we've for like twenty years or more, we're

1371
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:19,720
reading all of these reports about, well, that's what happened,

1372
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:23,079
and that's why it happened. It's like, not only did

1373
01:25:23,119 --> 01:25:25,479
they put fluoride in the water supply, but they did

1374
01:25:25,479 --> 01:25:30,000
it for this kind of biopolitical demographic control along the

1375
01:25:30,039 --> 01:25:35,079
way towards rolling out this comprehensive socialist agenda. It's just

1376
01:25:35,159 --> 01:25:38,279
like that's really really crazy to read after the fact.

1377
01:25:38,319 --> 01:25:40,159
Speaker 1: But yeah, so.

1378
01:25:41,960 --> 01:25:46,439
Speaker 2: In addition to this kind of comprehensive narrative and the

1379
01:25:47,079 --> 01:25:50,399
use of a pejorative, I just think that there's a

1380
01:25:50,520 --> 01:25:52,159
I lay out some other arguments in the essay two.

1381
01:25:52,159 --> 01:25:53,159
I don't know if you want to get to them,

1382
01:25:53,199 --> 01:25:56,920
but those are just the most remarkable things that allowed

1383
01:25:56,920 --> 01:25:58,079
me to draw that comparison.

1384
01:25:58,479 --> 01:26:00,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we can get to the other I

1385
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:05,840
just wanted to say. It's what's funny is as Lindsay

1386
01:26:06,039 --> 01:26:09,319
is listing all of these things, which are historical facts,

1387
01:26:10,479 --> 01:26:29,279
painting that them as conspiracy theory, these things for a second, Yeah,

1388
01:26:29,279 --> 01:26:32,840
you wrote it that out pretty badly, Okay, so let

1389
01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:36,479
me let me start that again. So one of the

1390
01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:41,880
things Lindsay did that just was he's listing all these things.

1391
01:26:41,880 --> 01:26:43,680
So he's listing all these people and he's trying to

1392
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:46,840
present it as a conspiracy theory. Yet like all the

1393
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:50,399
people he's mentioning are writing that they're doing these things,

1394
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:53,720
are writing these that these things have happened, are saying

1395
01:26:53,760 --> 01:26:57,920
there is a postwar consensus, are bragging about the fact

1396
01:26:57,920 --> 01:27:03,119
that they've changed the the social and political habits of

1397
01:27:03,279 --> 01:27:08,239
the American public, and that I think the thing with

1398
01:27:08,359 --> 01:27:13,239
Lindsay is is that he realizes he's losing and that

1399
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:17,039
and that his classical liberalism. I remember he had this

1400
01:27:17,159 --> 01:27:20,159
tweet and I think it's the tweet that got me

1401
01:27:20,199 --> 01:27:25,600
blocked because he said, the only thing that can defeat

1402
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:29,159
the left, the woke on the left is classical liberalism.

1403
01:27:29,359 --> 01:27:32,880
And classical liberalism hasn't even gotten started yet. And my

1404
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:36,000
comment was, so what you're saying is real classical liberalism

1405
01:27:36,039 --> 01:27:43,359
has ever been tried, and you know, and this was

1406
01:27:43,399 --> 01:27:46,199
at a time when he was attacking Paul Gottfried as woke,

1407
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:53,399
and Paul Gottfried said on my show and like, people

1408
01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:56,720
didn't hear it. People said, no, Paul said this. I'm like,

1409
01:27:56,840 --> 01:27:59,520
go back and listen to what he said. Paul Godfrey said,

1410
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:02,800
the only thing that is going to defeat this left

1411
01:28:02,840 --> 01:28:09,439
authoritarianism is right wing authoritarianism. And I agree with him

1412
01:28:09,840 --> 01:28:12,720
that that is the only thing that reverses the post

1413
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:17,319
war consensus is to the one thing that actually that

1414
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:20,359
they were actually fighting against. That the whole war had

1415
01:28:20,399 --> 01:28:22,680
the whole world had to go war against you know,

1416
01:28:23,199 --> 01:28:26,439
back back in time when the post war consensus was

1417
01:28:27,039 --> 01:28:31,000
in the in the in the in the the mid

1418
01:28:31,039 --> 01:28:34,840
war years between the wars, when it was starting to

1419
01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:37,600
formulate and people were literally fighting back. I mean, you

1420
01:28:37,640 --> 01:28:41,319
had new political movements rising to fight against it. And

1421
01:28:41,359 --> 01:28:43,800
I think Lindsey just realizes it. I think he's in

1422
01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:47,920
a panic. I think he's in a complete panic that

1423
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:51,439
he knows that people are just falling away that Like

1424
01:28:52,159 --> 01:28:55,159
you say what you want about mega people, I think

1425
01:28:55,239 --> 01:28:58,760
mega people right now at this point want change and

1426
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:01,800
they don't care how it get it. They don't care

1427
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:05,399
if you know Trump has to become an article to president.

1428
01:29:06,399 --> 01:29:09,399
They just want change. And I think that's what scares

1429
01:29:09,479 --> 01:29:11,960
the crap out of these people is they know that

1430
01:29:12,119 --> 01:29:15,079
eventually this is coming for them.

1431
01:29:15,359 --> 01:29:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, the if you were a libertarian in the previous life.

1432
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:22,720
I was a libertarian in a previous life. I remember

1433
01:29:22,760 --> 01:29:27,600
reading Thomas D. Lorenzo like Abraham Lincoln is the American dictator.

1434
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:31,399
It's like, these were the kinds of concerns people had seven, ten,

1435
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:34,399
twelve years ago. And if you talk to your average conservative,

1436
01:29:35,039 --> 01:29:39,880
they don't care at all, especially post COVID once things,

1437
01:29:40,399 --> 01:29:43,840
you know, stopped heating up in the COVID era and

1438
01:29:43,880 --> 01:29:46,199
you're able to go out and do things again. I

1439
01:29:46,239 --> 01:29:47,840
did a lot of going out, I think probably like

1440
01:29:47,880 --> 01:29:49,960
a lot of people did, like let me get some air,

1441
01:29:50,319 --> 01:29:53,199
and just talking to people, business owners, whether it's like

1442
01:29:53,279 --> 01:29:57,039
local bars, restaurants, whatever, people who had to close businesses,

1443
01:29:57,119 --> 01:30:01,239
people who kept their businesses open stream cost to them

1444
01:30:01,279 --> 01:30:04,800
and their families and their financial security and things like that.

1445
01:30:04,840 --> 01:30:09,239
And to a person, everyone is saying things like, well,

1446
01:30:09,279 --> 01:30:11,399
I won't repeat what they said on air, but they

1447
01:30:11,399 --> 01:30:14,439
were saying things like I don't care what has to happen.

1448
01:30:15,199 --> 01:30:17,640
I do not care what has to happen, but it

1449
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:20,319
has to happen. These are the kinds of things that

1450
01:30:20,359 --> 01:30:23,520
they were saying. And just to your point, like we've

1451
01:30:25,119 --> 01:30:26,920
almost I say this again with a little bit of

1452
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:29,680
an asterisk, we've almost been able to have kind of

1453
01:30:29,760 --> 01:30:35,560
any other political option presented to us, but something like

1454
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:41,560
a strong conservative executive. We've had all these flavors of

1455
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:50,640
right liberalism, libertarianism, paleo libertarianism, conservatism, paleo military or minoritarianism, whatever,

1456
01:30:50,920 --> 01:30:54,319
all these flavors on the left of different brands of

1457
01:30:54,359 --> 01:31:02,560
socialist communist, light communists, you know, diet communism, communism, thunder whatever,

1458
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:07,680
like mango communism, like boiler plate neoliberalism. We have had

1459
01:31:07,720 --> 01:31:11,800
every kind of personality, every flavor, every color, but the

1460
01:31:11,840 --> 01:31:13,600
one thing we haven't been able to have, and it's

1461
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:15,760
also the one thing that we had to fight a

1462
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:19,560
ten year culture war, almost ten decade long culture war

1463
01:31:20,039 --> 01:31:23,159
just to be able to get is something like right

1464
01:31:23,159 --> 01:31:27,359
wing authoritarianism. So yeah, the thing like getting on Paul

1465
01:31:27,399 --> 01:31:31,960
Gottfried's case and calling him woke, it's like he's probably

1466
01:31:32,239 --> 01:31:36,479
like one of the best bridges from like the genesis

1467
01:31:36,479 --> 01:31:39,840
of woke to us that exists. Like he studied under

1468
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:43,800
Herbert Marcuse, you know, he was thrown out by these

1469
01:31:44,640 --> 01:31:50,319
old school communist left wing anti anti family types, anti

1470
01:31:50,399 --> 01:31:55,439
capitalist types, anti you know, anti everything good effectively, and

1471
01:31:55,520 --> 01:31:59,039
he's documenting it for decades and decades he's documenting it.

1472
01:31:59,079 --> 01:32:02,119
So just yeah, James Lendsy is definitely shitting his pants.

1473
01:32:03,239 --> 01:32:07,760
The thing that I the thing I've also kind of

1474
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:12,239
come to realize about his whole position is this, and

1475
01:32:12,279 --> 01:32:14,319
it makes me think he's I guess there's two you

1476
01:32:14,359 --> 01:32:16,640
can always play this game of does he know what

1477
01:32:16,680 --> 01:32:18,520
he's doing or does he not know what he's doing?

1478
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:19,800
I'm you know, I'm not going to put on my

1479
01:32:19,840 --> 01:32:23,119
mind reader hat, but just taking what he says at

1480
01:32:23,159 --> 01:32:28,840
face value, his worldview only makes sense if you don't

1481
01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:32,359
interrogate it, if you don't think about it, if you

1482
01:32:32,439 --> 01:32:36,079
don't really ask any questions, then it sort of works.

1483
01:32:36,439 --> 01:32:40,079
But the moment you start picking pulling at threads, it

1484
01:32:40,119 --> 01:32:42,520
really doesn't make any sense at all. So there's the

1485
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:47,119
definition that James Lendsay gives for woke. I'm actually, uh,

1486
01:32:47,239 --> 01:32:51,359
I'm going to read it from my essay. What does

1487
01:32:51,399 --> 01:32:57,359
woke mean? Woke up to a structural politics that marginalizes

1488
01:32:57,399 --> 01:33:00,000
people like me and we need to band together inside

1489
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:02,520
colidarity in order to be able to create a powerful

1490
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:05,760
enough oppressed coalition to flip over the power structure by

1491
01:33:05,800 --> 01:33:09,319
putting ourselves at the center and claiming power for ourselves.

1492
01:33:09,359 --> 01:33:11,520
So he's saying, is that what it means? Actually, there

1493
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:16,479
was there was an even better quote, actually to awaken

1494
01:33:16,680 --> 01:33:20,560
a critical consciousness of the power structure. So that's that's

1495
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:23,439
actually I tweeted that at him and then he blocked me.

1496
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:27,359
So woke is to come to a critical consciousness of

1497
01:33:27,399 --> 01:33:32,720
the power structure you that is such a thin or

1498
01:33:32,920 --> 01:33:36,479
or or kind of like widely applicable definition as to

1499
01:33:37,159 --> 01:33:39,680
fundamentally not have any real meaning. And it's why he's

1500
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:43,880
waging this like weeks long jihad with people, Like what

1501
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:46,479
are you even talking about? How can you call these

1502
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:53,520
people woke? Because if you think about something, you're being

1503
01:33:53,520 --> 01:33:57,399
critical and everything has the structure, so you're becoming aware

1504
01:33:57,439 --> 01:33:59,800
of the structure. So one, like he's he's basically saying,

1505
01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:02,319
you have to be unconscious. You have to not think

1506
01:34:02,359 --> 01:34:07,399
about things. We want this like illiterate unconscious liberalism where

1507
01:34:07,439 --> 01:34:09,960
we just float around in the world and we don't

1508
01:34:09,960 --> 01:34:13,399
really pay attention to what's going on nineties liberalism. Basically,

1509
01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:15,039
he wants to go back to a time where things

1510
01:34:15,039 --> 01:34:17,720
are kind of like you're like embryotic, like you're in

1511
01:34:17,800 --> 01:34:21,199
your mom's belly and things are warm and gushy and

1512
01:34:21,239 --> 01:34:23,439
you feel good and you don't have to worry about anything.

1513
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:26,279
One that's not the world we live in anymore. Two

1514
01:34:27,039 --> 01:34:29,680
that's not a good world to live in at all.

1515
01:34:30,199 --> 01:34:34,920
Like imagine being this like brilliant academic mathematician. You've got

1516
01:34:34,920 --> 01:34:38,000
all these prizes and awards, and you're telling people that

1517
01:34:38,079 --> 01:34:41,119
you want them to not be critical thinkers. Like that's

1518
01:34:41,159 --> 01:34:43,800
not even that doesn't even follow from the kind of

1519
01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:47,199
nineties liberalism that we lived through that I grew up in,

1520
01:34:47,239 --> 01:34:50,119
where it's like be a critical thinker, like you know,

1521
01:34:50,279 --> 01:34:53,119
baby Josh in elementary school, like grow up to be

1522
01:34:53,159 --> 01:34:55,960
a critical thinker, like everyone saying critical thinking is good,

1523
01:34:56,079 --> 01:34:59,600
build your critical thinking skills. And now here here's James lindsay,

1524
01:34:59,680 --> 01:35:03,119
like critical thinking is bad, don't do it. It's like,

1525
01:35:03,159 --> 01:35:07,800
that's kind of ridiculous. But also like by that own definition,

1526
01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:12,039
coming to a critical consciousness of power structures, like he

1527
01:35:12,279 --> 01:35:15,479
is woke by his own definition. How can you reverse

1528
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:21,760
engineer this Marxist revolution without coming to a critical consciousness

1529
01:35:22,119 --> 01:35:26,359
of the power structures that produced woke Marxism? Right, he

1530
01:35:26,399 --> 01:35:29,000
wants to talk about Franz Finon and all of these

1531
01:35:29,039 --> 01:35:32,960
other people, Like you have to think and deliberate and

1532
01:35:33,039 --> 01:35:36,199
research and work and and be critically. You have to

1533
01:35:36,239 --> 01:35:38,479
critique the power structure. You have to come to an

1534
01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:42,960
awareness of the institutions and networks that created this. So

1535
01:35:43,760 --> 01:35:48,039
this is one of the reasons why I say that

1536
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:52,079
is that it's predominantly a smear. It's it's what I

1537
01:35:52,119 --> 01:35:56,439
called regime polemics, because he's basically working for the system

1538
01:35:57,039 --> 01:36:01,319
to come up with a larger bad to to beat

1539
01:36:01,399 --> 01:36:01,680
us with.

1540
01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:05,319
Speaker 1: Well, you know, and one of the other things that

1541
01:36:05,359 --> 01:36:08,439
he ascribes to woke is he's like, oh, they're studying

1542
01:36:08,520 --> 01:36:13,359
Carl Schmidt. The friend and enemy distinction when you call

1543
01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:17,680
someone woke, right, what are you doing? Are you not

1544
01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:23,920
practicing friend? Enemy? And it's the this just goes to

1545
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:26,840
show how retarded classical liberals are. And I'm not talking

1546
01:36:26,880 --> 01:36:32,000
about like historically classical liberals. If it's twenty twenty four

1547
01:36:32,720 --> 01:36:36,640
and you're still a classical liberal and you're not just

1548
01:36:38,159 --> 01:36:41,560
I don't know, you don't really have anything. You can't

1549
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:45,279
join the discussion. You're not in the discussion anymore. Classical

1550
01:36:45,359 --> 01:36:51,560
liberalism has been so i mean just marginalized, and it's

1551
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:54,840
just so dead in the water that the people who

1552
01:36:54,920 --> 01:36:59,840
are arguing for it, they justin arguing for it, they

1553
01:37:00,079 --> 01:37:05,640
contradict their own their own assertions about other groups. And

1554
01:37:05,760 --> 01:37:12,840
it's you're he's some great intellectual because he wrote a

1555
01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:16,880
bunch of fake papers and got them. I mean, come on,

1556
01:37:18,199 --> 01:37:22,439
come on, and then you then you completely rewrote the

1557
01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:25,800
Communist Manifesto. The only thing you left in there that

1558
01:37:26,239 --> 01:37:29,920
would jump out at anybody was something about a specter,

1559
01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:35,319
and I can that's the way I write, where I'll

1560
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:41,399
I'll borrow a really famous kind of line from somewhere

1561
01:37:41,479 --> 01:37:44,159
and rearrange it to make it and and if I'm

1562
01:37:44,159 --> 01:37:46,199
reading that, I'm just like, oh, okay, So because I

1563
01:37:46,279 --> 01:37:48,039
read that thing, and I'm like, if I didn't know

1564
01:37:48,079 --> 01:37:50,560
this was supposed to be the Communist Manifesto, I wouldn't

1565
01:37:50,560 --> 01:37:53,560
have known it. Because I've read the Communist Manifesto many times.

1566
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:56,079
I didn't see it in that. All I saw was

1567
01:37:56,159 --> 01:37:59,079
him using some kind of device where he's picking the

1568
01:37:59,119 --> 01:38:02,279
most famous line out of it and then using it,

1569
01:38:02,319 --> 01:38:04,840
which is a device I use, but I don't use

1570
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:06,960
it to fool people. I use it because it's like,

1571
01:38:07,000 --> 01:38:08,039
oh look how smart I am.

1572
01:38:08,319 --> 01:38:12,800
Speaker 2: Basically, how many times have you seen somebody say once

1573
01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:17,159
as tragedy, again as farce, Like I've written that phrase

1574
01:38:17,199 --> 01:38:21,520
everybody uses. It's like just part of it's part of

1575
01:38:21,520 --> 01:38:25,920
a vocabulary, right, but it's it's it. It does remind

1576
01:38:25,920 --> 01:38:31,479
me of Frankly, I was gonna say ten years ago,

1577
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:33,319
but really at any point in the last ten years.

1578
01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:38,319
It sounds like a blue haired commie who says you

1579
01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:42,000
uttered the magic words. It's just like Hitler that therefore

1580
01:38:42,039 --> 01:38:45,399
your bad, right, Like it's it's the same type of psychology,

1581
01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:48,359
it's the same type of like way logical, you know,

1582
01:38:48,439 --> 01:38:53,199
way of analyzing this that whole episode. By the way,

1583
01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:55,119
I'm glad you brought it up, because I'd kind of

1584
01:38:55,119 --> 01:38:58,880
forgotten about it. Tell me if you had this feeling.

1585
01:39:00,199 --> 01:39:02,079
There were two real problems I had with that. It

1586
01:39:02,159 --> 01:39:03,920
was the Christian Reformer, who's that the name of the

1587
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:04,479
website that.

1588
01:39:06,079 --> 01:39:10,159
Speaker 1: Oh god, I can't remember. The Amermericanformer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1589
01:39:10,239 --> 01:39:12,399
Speaker 2: So there's two things about that that stuck out to

1590
01:39:12,439 --> 01:39:17,079
me right away. One the American he was. He kept

1591
01:39:17,079 --> 01:39:21,119
calling it the leading woke Christian national It's like they

1592
01:39:21,119 --> 01:39:23,800
have less than twenty thousands subscribers on Twitter.

1593
01:39:24,119 --> 01:39:25,680
Speaker 1: I didn't even know that. I don't even know who

1594
01:39:25,680 --> 01:39:29,239
they are. Never heard of that, right, you know. And

1595
01:39:29,239 --> 01:39:30,800
I'm a Christian. I have no idea who they are.

1596
01:39:31,319 --> 01:39:34,840
And I'm someone who reads Interview Christian Nationalists, and I

1597
01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:40,880
had no clue who they are because it's like, yeah, yeah,

1598
01:39:40,960 --> 01:39:41,960
it's very arbitrary.

1599
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:43,760
Speaker 2: Again, this is a kind of thing that's common in

1600
01:39:44,119 --> 01:39:47,960
regime polemics. Is because you're working on behalf of the establishment.

1601
01:39:48,199 --> 01:39:53,399
When you select something, it becomes significant, right, Like it

1602
01:39:54,119 --> 01:39:58,439
has the importance and the meaning that you imbue it with.

1603
01:39:58,520 --> 01:39:58,680
Speaker 1: Right.

1604
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:01,560
Speaker 2: So if James lindsay, as a representative of you know,

1605
01:40:02,399 --> 01:40:05,640
big gay you know, big gay liberalism, and he says, well,

1606
01:40:05,640 --> 01:40:09,079
this is the institution, this is the Christian nationalist woke

1607
01:40:09,359 --> 01:40:13,159
paper of record, Well, him with his half a million

1608
01:40:13,159 --> 01:40:17,239
Twitter subscribers and his network of academics and his sec

1609
01:40:17,279 --> 01:40:19,319
of fans are now that's it. It's that's that that

1610
01:40:19,399 --> 01:40:22,680
perception has been created, that becomes part of the discourse.

1611
01:40:23,119 --> 01:40:25,560
You now are kind of pushing up against this brick

1612
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:27,159
wall even trying to refute that.

1613
01:40:27,399 --> 01:40:27,560
Speaker 1: Right.

1614
01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:30,800
Speaker 2: So that's like this sort of polemical power he has

1615
01:40:31,399 --> 01:40:33,880
as as a member, and he complains, by the way,

1616
01:40:33,920 --> 01:40:36,399
as a brief aside, he complains all the time like

1617
01:40:36,479 --> 01:40:38,880
he doesn't get the star appointments and he's kind of

1618
01:40:38,960 --> 01:40:42,880
left out of all the cool hip soares so like

1619
01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:46,560
obviously he's not the same thing as like Ibram x

1620
01:40:46,640 --> 01:40:48,000
Kendy was, you.

1621
01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:53,720
Speaker 1: Know, and even though and even though he is he's

1622
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:56,720
bankrolled by somebody I'm not going to name because this

1623
01:40:56,800 --> 01:41:01,800
person is very litigious. But he's bankrolled by a ev

1624
01:41:02,560 --> 01:41:06,760
by a big time evangelical who has ties to big

1625
01:41:06,880 --> 01:41:09,600
J money.

1626
01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:14,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not surprised to hear that. So there's this

1627
01:41:15,039 --> 01:41:19,439
arbitrariness to selecting the American Reformer as the woke right

1628
01:41:19,560 --> 01:41:24,199
paper of record. But also, I mean again, you and

1629
01:41:24,279 --> 01:41:28,000
I we've written things, We've published things, We've tried to

1630
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:31,079
get things published at places for you know, whether it

1631
01:41:31,159 --> 01:41:36,199
was libertarian paper or a conservative or whatever, or even

1632
01:41:36,239 --> 01:41:39,479
like maybe your town, your local newspaper in your hometown.

1633
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:44,479
Like I kind of know, like I have some idea

1634
01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:47,560
of how things get published and like what that review

1635
01:41:47,640 --> 01:41:52,680
process is like and how extensive it is, Like does

1636
01:41:52,680 --> 01:41:58,279
it really prove that that they like that by publishing

1637
01:41:58,319 --> 01:42:03,319
this kind of mishmashed paper, that it actually reflects like

1638
01:42:03,359 --> 01:42:06,159
they actually are co signed, Like the act of publishing

1639
01:42:06,199 --> 01:42:09,880
obviously is a sort of endorsement. But knowing that, like

1640
01:42:09,880 --> 01:42:12,720
it's the Internet, things move fast and quick. It's a

1641
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:15,720
shoe string operation. They don't have all this, they don't

1642
01:42:15,760 --> 01:42:17,720
have a whole team of editors, they don't have people

1643
01:42:18,119 --> 01:42:21,039
who it is their job to just do that forty

1644
01:42:21,039 --> 01:42:23,720
to fifty hours a week. They see something, it comes

1645
01:42:23,760 --> 01:42:25,960
through in their email, they probably look at it real

1646
01:42:26,039 --> 01:42:28,720
quick and they say, okay, we'll publish it on Wednesday

1647
01:42:28,720 --> 01:42:31,479
at three pm, thanks for your submission. Like does that

1648
01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:36,439
prove that they are secret Marxists or does it prove

1649
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:40,319
that in a fast moving technological economy where you are

1650
01:42:40,359 --> 01:42:44,159
part of the alternative media and there's maybe I don't

1651
01:42:44,159 --> 01:42:46,119
want to say anything bad about the American Reformer, I

1652
01:42:46,119 --> 01:42:48,600
don't know them, but just as an example, like maybe

1653
01:42:48,640 --> 01:42:54,560
you don't have the most strenuous submission review process. Maybe

1654
01:42:54,560 --> 01:42:56,520
there's a couple of things you look for and then

1655
01:42:56,560 --> 01:42:58,920
you just publish it. It's like, actually, all you've really

1656
01:42:58,960 --> 01:43:03,399
done is demonstrate that the economy around publishing is probably

1657
01:43:03,479 --> 01:43:06,960
not as rigorous as it ought to be, right, Like

1658
01:43:07,000 --> 01:43:09,920
this is not an actually ideological point that you're making.

1659
01:43:10,159 --> 01:43:14,640
This is like sort of like a banal business failure

1660
01:43:14,720 --> 01:43:18,760
of the business world in the Internet age. Like there's

1661
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:21,560
so many things that were goofy about it, and like

1662
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:24,079
it's just funny to me, Like every time he's tried

1663
01:43:24,119 --> 01:43:29,119
to slam the you know, big comical acme hammer down

1664
01:43:29,199 --> 01:43:32,319
on us. It's like it bounces back and hits him

1665
01:43:32,359 --> 01:43:34,640
in the face, like you know, it's like wildly Coyote

1666
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:37,239
and the road Runner. It's like he he runs into

1667
01:43:37,359 --> 01:43:42,399
the tunnel painted onto the brit wall and bounces off

1668
01:43:42,439 --> 01:43:47,039
of it. He's just it's it's just to your point,

1669
01:43:47,119 --> 01:43:49,760
and I'll leaven hear what I'm done. It does really

1670
01:43:49,800 --> 01:43:52,479
reek of a guy who's desperate and like kind of

1671
01:43:52,479 --> 01:43:55,000
shitting his pants and in a full blown panic.

1672
01:43:55,800 --> 01:44:00,920
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he's worried. He's he's seeing his meal ticket disappear.

1673
01:44:01,399 --> 01:44:06,239
That's what it is. And he knows that his meal

1674
01:44:06,279 --> 01:44:12,600
ticket right now is going into Milk Toasts event events

1675
01:44:12,600 --> 01:44:19,119
with milk toast evangelicals who love Israel and who hate

1676
01:44:19,199 --> 01:44:21,760
the woke. And he goes in there and tells them

1677
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:25,159
some stories about how all of this came from Karl

1678
01:44:25,239 --> 01:44:28,359
Marx and it's all Marxism, so you better be scared

1679
01:44:28,960 --> 01:44:32,119
and because you know that's really dangerous stuff and everything,

1680
01:44:32,159 --> 01:44:35,119
even though it's you know, it's like it I mean,

1681
01:44:35,359 --> 01:44:38,039
it is in practice and it is in thought, but

1682
01:44:38,079 --> 01:44:40,880
it's like, I mean, he's never going to talk about

1683
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:45,239
the fact that liberalism has no gatekeeping mechanisms that allows

1684
01:44:45,359 --> 01:44:47,840
anything to come you know, Oh, well, you're just going

1685
01:44:47,880 --> 01:44:49,640
to have the marketplace of ideas and you're going to

1686
01:44:49,680 --> 01:44:51,279
come in there. And if you have the marketplace of

1687
01:44:51,319 --> 01:44:54,439
ideas and you're a classical liberal, well, classical liberals are

1688
01:44:54,560 --> 01:45:00,199
not about Schmidtian you know, Schmidtian exceptions and Schmidtian friend enemy.

1689
01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:04,119
So I don't care if a communist gets a job

1690
01:45:04,159 --> 01:45:07,600
at the local university and then another one, and then

1691
01:45:07,640 --> 01:45:11,039
another one and then another one. I mean, he knows

1692
01:45:11,079 --> 01:45:14,640
that this is that liberalism has as much to do

1693
01:45:15,279 --> 01:45:19,319
with the takeover, with this postliberal you know, this post

1694
01:45:19,319 --> 01:45:20,920
war con says, I mean the post wark and sens

1695
01:45:20,960 --> 01:45:25,640
this is liberal. It is liberalism in its final form.

1696
01:45:27,079 --> 01:45:28,920
And well, I mean maybe not its final form. I

1697
01:45:28,920 --> 01:45:30,640
mean it could get worse. So he gets a left

1698
01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:35,479
pure left wing authoritarianism. But what we're seeing now is

1699
01:45:35,479 --> 01:45:40,840
is liberalism. It is we're going down this path and

1700
01:45:41,039 --> 01:45:46,359
we're there's an endpoint. There's an endpoint, but we just

1701
01:45:46,399 --> 01:45:49,199
can't get there. We can't. We just took we took

1702
01:45:49,199 --> 01:45:50,640
a rite. We got to get back on the path.

1703
01:45:50,680 --> 01:45:52,800
What do we gotta do to get pack? And then

1704
01:45:53,039 --> 01:45:57,479
all these other things just sneak in. He just he knows,

1705
01:45:58,119 --> 01:46:02,159
he knows. I'm convinced. He just knows that this classical

1706
01:46:02,199 --> 01:46:05,880
liberalism that he totes because he can't call it what

1707
01:46:05,960 --> 01:46:08,920
he really wants to is which he's a leftist. He

1708
01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:12,920
has said that he would rather the woke left wind

1709
01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:16,800
than than like the West become TRADCAF. Again he's actually

1710
01:46:18,039 --> 01:46:19,840
oh yeah, oh yeah, he said that. Yeah, I can,

1711
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:22,720
I can pull up the screenshots of it. Yeah. Yeah,

1712
01:46:22,760 --> 01:46:26,000
he would rather the woke left wind. Like someone said, well,

1713
01:46:26,039 --> 01:46:28,279
you know what if it has become TRADCAF. He goes that,

1714
01:46:28,359 --> 01:46:30,399
we're not. I don't want that. I would rather the

1715
01:46:30,520 --> 01:46:34,520
left one. Yeah, he's he's not a friend to right wingers,

1716
01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:38,239
but right wingers are such fucking pussies that they like,

1717
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:43,840
they have no problem. They're reaching left, well, reaching left

1718
01:46:43,960 --> 01:46:46,920
and punching right. And that's what they've been trained to

1719
01:46:46,960 --> 01:46:51,159
do by the post war consensus. And that's exactly what

1720
01:46:51,239 --> 01:46:53,760
he that's what he's he does, and he's taught a

1721
01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:56,880
bunch of people to do. And unfortunately a lot of

1722
01:46:56,880 --> 01:47:00,960
Evangelical Christianity has just rische. Even a lot of Evangelical

1723
01:47:01,079 --> 01:47:06,800
Christianity is quote quote we lose down here quote, which

1724
01:47:06,840 --> 01:47:12,000
means we can't do anything love our enemies. Never says

1725
01:47:12,039 --> 01:47:16,279
anywhere to love God's enemies. And these are the kind

1726
01:47:16,279 --> 01:47:20,119
of people who in nineteen thirty six in Spain, while

1727
01:47:21,039 --> 01:47:23,159
while priests and nuns are being executed in the streets,

1728
01:47:23,199 --> 01:47:25,039
people would say, no, that's the way it's supposed to be,

1729
01:47:25,039 --> 01:47:27,600
because you know, I mean, we can't fight back. We

1730
01:47:27,640 --> 01:47:28,600
have to love our enemies.

1731
01:47:30,920 --> 01:47:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's funny. Again, just one final comment

1732
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:39,000
on the whole American reformer situation. All kinds of people

1733
01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:44,239
that I didn't really think would line up alongside. It's

1734
01:47:44,239 --> 01:47:46,880
literally like the stone toss meme of like you know,

1735
01:47:46,920 --> 01:47:48,800
the two play the tug over war and then you

1736
01:47:48,800 --> 01:47:51,680
look to your left, who's behind me? It's like suddenly, actually,

1737
01:47:51,720 --> 01:47:53,760
Saint Clair and Mike Cernovich, you're behind you, Like what

1738
01:47:53,800 --> 01:47:58,199
the hell's going on? Like always, people who either are

1739
01:47:58,239 --> 01:48:02,199
really not part of that conversation or their message is

1740
01:48:02,239 --> 01:48:06,800
not really a hyper illiterate message, like in the case

1741
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:09,680
of Ashley Saint Clair are like, but like, don't you

1742
01:48:09,760 --> 01:48:12,439
think like some of this is like worth considering? Like

1743
01:48:12,479 --> 01:48:15,800
the most milk toast, tepid thing like I think Mike

1744
01:48:16,680 --> 01:48:19,640
either Sargon or Mike Cernovich were both like, yes, but

1745
01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:23,439
his criticisms of capitalism were accurate, Okay, which is one

1746
01:48:23,520 --> 01:48:26,520
line of rebuttal that you could take. And I think

1747
01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:28,840
Ashley Saint Clair was like, yeah, but don't you think

1748
01:48:29,039 --> 01:48:33,039
there's any room at all to criticize the system that

1749
01:48:33,039 --> 01:48:35,800
we're in. It's like, you won't even allow for the

1750
01:48:35,840 --> 01:48:39,439
possibility of self reflection. That's how you know you're the

1751
01:48:39,439 --> 01:48:43,039
bad guy. Dude, Like you won't look like dack cool,

1752
01:48:43,119 --> 01:48:45,479
you won't look into the mirror. That's how we know

1753
01:48:45,680 --> 01:48:48,800
you're the bad guy. You have no reflection. We know

1754
01:48:48,920 --> 01:48:52,880
you're the bad guy. I'm inclined to think and this

1755
01:48:52,960 --> 01:48:58,520
is maybe armchair psychoanalyzing, and just because of these are

1756
01:48:58,520 --> 01:49:01,319
things I've seen pop up on Twitter in the last

1757
01:49:01,319 --> 01:49:07,600
few days, I'm inclined to think that he gets you know, nobody,

1758
01:49:07,640 --> 01:49:10,359
nobody blow up my DMS or send me an affidavit

1759
01:49:10,439 --> 01:49:12,560
or anything. I'm inclined to think he gets up to

1760
01:49:12,640 --> 01:49:16,720
some weird purp stuff. You know, somebody posted a picture

1761
01:49:16,760 --> 01:49:20,239
of him taking a selfie, like in the nude, with

1762
01:49:20,479 --> 01:49:25,119
like a potted plant precariously positioned where his genitals are.

1763
01:49:25,199 --> 01:49:27,520
It's like, so you put that on the internet, man,

1764
01:49:28,199 --> 01:49:32,199
like there is something wrong with you. And the thing

1765
01:49:32,239 --> 01:49:37,159
about like even his social media personality, it says something

1766
01:49:37,199 --> 01:49:39,479
to me like this is kind of a dysfunctional person

1767
01:49:39,680 --> 01:49:43,239
because he's on triggernometry and he starts off, you know,

1768
01:49:43,399 --> 01:49:46,840
Constantine kiss and asks him what is the woke right

1769
01:49:47,760 --> 01:49:51,880
and James Lindsay starts kind of apologetically like, gee, you know,

1770
01:49:53,079 --> 01:49:56,239
maybe I've used woke to liberally. It might not be

1771
01:49:56,359 --> 01:49:58,760
the best word. So he's like a kind of human

1772
01:49:58,800 --> 01:50:01,399
being a little bit the start of that interview, and

1773
01:50:01,439 --> 01:50:04,119
then you watch him on Twitter and he posts like

1774
01:50:04,159 --> 01:50:06,199
he's a fourteen year old.

1775
01:50:06,800 --> 01:50:08,520
Speaker 1: And everything is really just edge alarding.

1776
01:50:09,239 --> 01:50:13,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like this is not an actually mature adult man,

1777
01:50:14,560 --> 01:50:20,279
and that's the type of person that the establishment has left.

1778
01:50:20,720 --> 01:50:24,680
Like these like they're reserve troops. This is like calling in,

1779
01:50:24,840 --> 01:50:27,239
I don't know, the National Guard. And it's like the

1780
01:50:27,720 --> 01:50:31,560
fat guy from the bar with like terrible diabetes and

1781
01:50:31,600 --> 01:50:34,880
his legs are all swollen up. It's like they they're

1782
01:50:34,880 --> 01:50:38,039
not sending their best. Okay, they're not sending their best.

1783
01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:41,079
Speaker 1: Well, you know, what's what else is interesting about the

1784
01:50:41,079 --> 01:50:45,000
post war consensus is that it's while they are sneaking

1785
01:50:45,039 --> 01:50:49,960
in a lot of like social Marxism. If you if

1786
01:50:49,960 --> 01:50:52,520
you use any kind of critique or if you agree

1787
01:50:52,560 --> 01:50:56,640
at all with Marx or Lenin or anybody of that ilk,

1788
01:50:57,359 --> 01:50:59,279
if you say, oh, well, you know, they made a

1789
01:50:59,319 --> 01:51:03,279
really good point hear about industrial society and capitalism. I

1790
01:51:03,279 --> 01:51:09,640
saw this today. They were talking about this kid, an

1791
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:12,840
Italian anarchist who's assassinating people in the streets. Again, what

1792
01:51:13,159 --> 01:51:19,800
year is this. The they were saying, Oh, well, he's

1793
01:51:19,920 --> 01:51:23,800
like really into like Ted Kazinski and everything like that.

1794
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:26,760
I'm like, and they're like, oh, that means he's a leftist.

1795
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:31,800
That's what the Jews from Libs of TikTok said, So,

1796
01:51:31,840 --> 01:51:33,920
oh that means he's a leftist. I'm like, have you

1797
01:51:33,960 --> 01:51:37,600
read Ted Kazinski. The whole first thirty seven parts of

1798
01:51:37,600 --> 01:51:40,960
that is him completely shitting on the left. And then

1799
01:51:41,000 --> 01:51:46,399
he explains why technological society, why what it's done to

1800
01:51:46,520 --> 01:51:48,359
our psyche and what has done to us and what

1801
01:51:48,399 --> 01:51:51,880
has done to our nature, And to argue against that,

1802
01:51:52,239 --> 01:51:58,880
you're retarded. So it's like, you can what the post

1803
01:51:58,880 --> 01:52:01,039
war consensus says is, oh, we're gonna sneak all this

1804
01:52:01,159 --> 01:52:04,079
Marxism in here, in this socialism here, and basically you know,

1805
01:52:04,279 --> 01:52:06,600
and Marxism in a way, we're going to strip away family.

1806
01:52:06,680 --> 01:52:09,600
We're gonna we want you to become the liberal, the

1807
01:52:10,239 --> 01:52:14,279
post war consensus man and woman and everything. But if

1808
01:52:14,279 --> 01:52:16,840
you agree at all where you say, well, I think

1809
01:52:16,920 --> 01:52:19,640
marx and the German ideology made some really good points

1810
01:52:19,640 --> 01:52:23,479
about what's happening to society, Well then you're a Marxist.

1811
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:27,640
It's like, wait a minute, but you're promoting you're promoting

1812
01:52:27,720 --> 01:52:31,479
shit that's almost almost literally Marxist, and we have it

1813
01:52:31,520 --> 01:52:34,920
in our society and we've pointed it out. And what now.

1814
01:52:37,239 --> 01:52:39,520
So you can't even win with these people because it's

1815
01:52:39,520 --> 01:52:41,920
like you can't. You they can have it one way,

1816
01:52:41,920 --> 01:52:43,760
but they can have it both ways. You can't.

1817
01:52:45,439 --> 01:52:47,720
Speaker 2: That's the power of that again, it's the power of

1818
01:52:47,760 --> 01:52:51,000
being a regime polemicist. You said, the rules, you establish

1819
01:52:51,119 --> 01:52:55,039
the frame, You determine what pieces are in play, what

1820
01:52:55,079 --> 01:53:00,399
pieces aren't in play, what's hypocritical, what isn't. Just kind

1821
01:53:00,399 --> 01:53:04,800
of go back to the parallel between Hofstadder and James Lindsay,

1822
01:53:04,840 --> 01:53:07,399
between woke right and the paranoid style, you know, one

1823
01:53:07,439 --> 01:53:10,039
of these other things, and I think it's exemple it

1824
01:53:10,479 --> 01:53:15,399
demonstrates what you're just talking about, is the way things

1825
01:53:15,439 --> 01:53:22,079
that there's kind of self evidently farcical or hypocritical are

1826
01:53:22,279 --> 01:53:27,039
used in this polemical, pejorative way. So one of the

1827
01:53:27,079 --> 01:53:30,039
key arguments that Lindsay puts forward is that the woke

1828
01:53:30,159 --> 01:53:33,239
right behaves just like the woke left. Like this is

1829
01:53:33,319 --> 01:53:35,800
kind of like this is one half of his entire argument.

1830
01:53:36,199 --> 01:53:39,960
He says there's an ideological component. He says that there's

1831
01:53:40,000 --> 01:53:43,880
a practical component, and the practical component is how we

1832
01:53:43,960 --> 01:53:49,479
behave we behave the same as the woke left. We

1833
01:53:49,680 --> 01:53:53,439
use social media the same way we believe in an

1834
01:53:53,439 --> 01:53:56,439
oppressed oppress or dialectic the same way. I'm gonna actually

1835
01:53:56,439 --> 01:54:00,000
try to pull up some of the examples he use,

1836
01:54:00,199 --> 01:54:03,520
is here, sure? So yeah, He says that they create

1837
01:54:03,880 --> 01:54:07,279
an illusion that there's support for one thing and distaste

1838
01:54:07,279 --> 01:54:10,079
for another. He says that you know, both are highly

1839
01:54:10,119 --> 01:54:15,119
invested in identity politics, and he says that ultimately, what

1840
01:54:15,119 --> 01:54:18,000
what what else can you call this but woke? And

1841
01:54:18,039 --> 01:54:22,199
so therefore there's this complete you know what he's what

1842
01:54:22,279 --> 01:54:26,960
he thinks he's done, is eliminated any difference between Pete

1843
01:54:27,000 --> 01:54:35,079
Canonas and Josh Neil Versus. I look Slava, Bernie Sanders,

1844
01:54:35,840 --> 01:54:42,319
Alexandria Ocasio Cortes, uh Man Jail, whether he's our anarchist

1845
01:54:42,399 --> 01:54:45,560
or not or whatever, like, actually there's still are There

1846
01:54:45,640 --> 01:54:48,640
still are fundamental differences, even if you can point to

1847
01:54:48,960 --> 01:54:52,720
superficial similarities. So this is another thing that there's a

1848
01:54:52,800 --> 01:54:57,159
there's a very telling passage in the paranoid style of

1849
01:54:57,159 --> 01:55:03,760
of in American politics where to dispel the to kind

1850
01:55:03,760 --> 01:55:07,199
of like defang this what he calls pseudo conservatism. He

1851
01:55:07,319 --> 01:55:11,840
points to the rivalries of right wing conspiratorial groups and

1852
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:15,920
shows how that they are identical to their opposition. So

1853
01:55:15,960 --> 01:55:19,840
he talks about the KKK, and he says, well, you know,

1854
01:55:21,039 --> 01:55:25,359
they wore priestly uniforms, just like the Catholics, and they

1855
01:55:25,479 --> 01:55:30,600
had this strict hierarchical structure, just like the Catholics. So

1856
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:33,680
actually their rivalry is kind of like this petty envy

1857
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:37,079
and it's totally illegitimate and they're just paranoid. Never mind

1858
01:55:37,119 --> 01:55:39,680
the fact that the KKK were made up of a

1859
01:55:39,720 --> 01:55:44,039
specific group of people from a specific place, operating under

1860
01:55:44,039 --> 01:55:47,359
a specific political pretext with a very particular set of

1861
01:55:47,359 --> 01:55:50,239
goals for themselves. And you know, the Catholic Church is

1862
01:55:51,399 --> 01:55:55,640
the Catholic Church like not the same thing, right or that.

1863
01:55:56,039 --> 01:56:00,000
He uses the example of the John Birch Society versus

1864
01:56:00,079 --> 01:56:02,880
is you know, this communist spook, and he says, isn't

1865
01:56:02,880 --> 01:56:06,399
it really remarkable that they both fight a zero sum

1866
01:56:06,479 --> 01:56:11,920
ideological war. It's like, okay, so they're both really committed

1867
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:15,359
to the ideas that they have. Therefore, there's no difference

1868
01:56:15,560 --> 01:56:18,640
at all between you know, mom and pop from down

1869
01:56:18,720 --> 01:56:20,880
the street who give their one hundred dollars every month

1870
01:56:21,239 --> 01:56:25,319
to the John Birch Society and communist organizers who are

1871
01:56:25,359 --> 01:56:30,119
like burning down houses and whatever. He also gives the

1872
01:56:30,159 --> 01:56:35,760
example of Christians Christian anti communists versus communists, and the

1873
01:56:35,800 --> 01:56:38,720
exact phrase here, just let me pull it up. It's

1874
01:56:38,760 --> 01:56:45,920
so goofy one second, okay, So he says, you know,

1875
01:56:46,039 --> 01:56:51,800
Christian anti communists were intellectually and spiritually vigorous like their

1876
01:56:51,880 --> 01:56:58,159
Communist foes. They admired the vigor of their Communist opponents

1877
01:56:58,520 --> 01:57:01,039
and they tried to emulate it. And that's how we

1878
01:57:01,119 --> 01:57:04,279
know that there's no actual rivalry here. That the right

1879
01:57:04,319 --> 01:57:07,600
wingers are just parented by the way, there's never any

1880
01:57:07,680 --> 01:57:11,920
actual kind of antagonization or examination of the left wing

1881
01:57:11,960 --> 01:57:14,399
people on that side of the Communists are just like

1882
01:57:14,840 --> 01:57:17,720
kind of unimpeachable to Richard hobs.

1883
01:57:19,319 --> 01:57:21,600
Speaker 1: Goughlin and Justice Stalin same person.

1884
01:57:22,479 --> 01:57:26,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's commons. You would even think that a guy

1885
01:57:26,159 --> 01:57:30,640
who had formally disavowed his Communism and like shredded up

1886
01:57:30,680 --> 01:57:34,760
his Communist party, you know, uh credit card or whatever,

1887
01:57:35,199 --> 01:57:42,039
might have like an interest in publishing even just to

1888
01:57:42,039 --> 01:57:47,359
say face publishing like even tepidly communist critiques, just to

1889
01:57:47,520 --> 01:57:50,960
distance himself and the public perception he's created. But no,

1890
01:57:51,000 --> 01:57:53,000
he doesn't. He's the same thing with Carl Popper, not

1891
01:57:53,079 --> 01:57:56,199
to get off on a tangent, although I guess with

1892
01:57:56,239 --> 01:57:59,199
Carl Popper later on in his career he did become

1893
01:57:59,319 --> 01:58:03,560
more critical of communism. But Carl Popper's another again architect

1894
01:58:03,600 --> 01:58:06,680
of the post war consensus. Literally the Open Society Foundation

1895
01:58:07,319 --> 01:58:09,279
is based on the title of his book, and he

1896
01:58:09,319 --> 01:58:10,920
was a mentor of George Soros.

1897
01:58:11,399 --> 01:58:13,920
Speaker 1: Was not even didn't he come up with the term

1898
01:58:14,159 --> 01:58:15,079
conspiracy theorist.

1899
01:58:17,319 --> 01:58:21,119
Speaker 2: He wrote an essay called the Conspiracy Theory of Society, Right,

1900
01:58:21,119 --> 01:58:24,920
I don't know if he coined these, but that's a

1901
01:58:24,960 --> 01:58:27,199
great essay, by the way, very very ridiculous stuff that

1902
01:58:27,199 --> 01:58:31,720
he puts in it. But another guy who, like in

1903
01:58:31,760 --> 01:58:34,720
a previous life was a communist, And when he does

1904
01:58:34,760 --> 01:58:40,640
his big brained intellectual defense of liberalism, really only has

1905
01:58:40,680 --> 01:58:43,399
time to talk about how bad fascists are, how bad

1906
01:58:43,520 --> 01:58:47,199
nativists are, how bad Nazis are, how bad populists are,

1907
01:58:47,520 --> 01:58:51,720
how bad nationalists are. It's like, guy, you were with

1908
01:58:51,760 --> 01:58:54,600
the communists and you almost got killed by them, and

1909
01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:57,520
you can't even give me a sentence about how bad

1910
01:58:57,760 --> 01:59:01,079
that is. And again I'm being a little bit hyperbolic

1911
01:59:01,199 --> 01:59:04,159
because he does talk about marks in the open society

1912
01:59:04,199 --> 01:59:07,079
and his enemies, but most of that book is spent

1913
01:59:07,359 --> 01:59:12,000
slagging nativism. It's spent slagging the closed society, which would be,

1914
01:59:12,079 --> 01:59:14,680
you know, a nation that protects his borders and has

1915
01:59:14,760 --> 01:59:18,079
law and order and has a you know, vaguely authoritarian,

1916
01:59:18,600 --> 01:59:23,279
hierarchical political structure. So I mean, these guys just telling themselves,

1917
01:59:23,279 --> 01:59:24,000
it's remarkable.

1918
01:59:24,520 --> 01:59:31,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there's really I think at this point to

1919
01:59:31,399 --> 01:59:36,479
argue with him, is you're giving them legitimacy, because I

1920
01:59:36,640 --> 01:59:41,760
don't know that. Yeah, if you look at how many

1921
01:59:42,159 --> 01:59:45,760
followers he has on Twitter, and people say, oh, Twitter

1922
01:59:45,800 --> 01:59:48,399
isn't real life. People said that like eight nine years ago,

1923
01:59:48,800 --> 01:59:50,920
Oh Twitter has become real life because it really is

1924
01:59:50,920 --> 01:59:54,039
the public square. So yeah, you look at how many

1925
01:59:54,079 --> 01:59:56,600
followers he has. You look at if he posts something.

1926
01:59:57,039 --> 02:00:00,720
If he posts something about classical liberalism, he's lucky to

1927
02:00:00,760 --> 02:00:04,399
get like the amount of likes. He's lucky to get

1928
02:00:04,439 --> 02:00:06,800
ten percent of the likes of like a meme account

1929
02:00:07,039 --> 02:00:10,000
just posting a meme. But when he posts about stuff

1930
02:00:10,000 --> 02:00:13,119
like this, he may get like double that. And all

1931
02:00:13,159 --> 02:00:18,199
that tells you is that no one's buying this. The

1932
02:00:18,560 --> 02:00:21,600
only people who are really going along with it are

1933
02:00:21,640 --> 02:00:27,479
people who are so bought into his worldview. And let's

1934
02:00:27,520 --> 02:00:30,520
face it, yeah, I was talking about this with a

1935
02:00:30,520 --> 02:00:33,680
friend of mine on his show this afternoon. Is that

1936
02:00:35,199 --> 02:00:38,239
a lot of people who get into a quote unquote movement,

1937
02:00:39,640 --> 02:00:43,680
they're just looking for God. They're looking for their God.

1938
02:00:44,319 --> 02:00:50,000
And if somebody is like really into oh, classical liberalism

1939
02:00:50,119 --> 02:00:53,960
and anti woke, James Lindsay can become their God really quick.

1940
02:00:54,000 --> 02:00:58,439
If you're really into like free market economics, Ludwig von

1941
02:00:58,520 --> 02:01:03,239
Mises can become your or got really quickly, and that's

1942
02:01:03,279 --> 02:01:05,840
just basically what we're seeing. I mean, I don't know

1943
02:01:07,119 --> 02:01:12,199
really if you had to guess, do you think James

1944
02:01:12,239 --> 02:01:17,359
Lindsay has any kind of influence on the incoming Trump regime?

1945
02:01:19,159 --> 02:01:21,279
Speaker 2: None at all, I would assume. Then he complain that

1946
02:01:21,319 --> 02:01:23,720
like they literally didn't even ask me, Like I think

1947
02:01:23,760 --> 02:01:26,039
he said something to that effect on Twitter, like no

1948
02:01:26,079 --> 02:01:27,159
one's calling.

1949
02:01:26,840 --> 02:01:32,000
Speaker 1: Me, why would why what are you going to tell them?

1950
02:01:32,079 --> 02:01:35,000
What are you going to advise them on? What I mean,

1951
02:01:35,039 --> 02:01:41,520
if you're if your goal? Trump has said, Look, I

1952
02:01:41,560 --> 02:01:43,359
think most people are at the point where it's like,

1953
02:01:43,720 --> 02:01:46,520
just get rid of all the get rid of all

1954
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:50,800
the the illegal immigrants. If he got rid of you know,

1955
02:01:51,239 --> 02:01:53,720
half of the illegal immigrants in the in this country

1956
02:01:53,760 --> 02:01:57,319
at this point, that would just be a win. Because

1957
02:01:57,439 --> 02:02:02,640
I mean, no one's expecting and no one really expecting success.

1958
02:02:03,079 --> 02:02:05,479
No one who's realistic, no one who understands how the

1959
02:02:05,479 --> 02:02:08,760
administrative state works, how the post war consensus works, is

1960
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:15,199
really expecting an insane amount of success. But I mean,

1961
02:02:17,520 --> 02:02:19,239
is he going to be for that? How does he

1962
02:02:19,239 --> 02:02:23,000
help that? How does he help like say Doze say

1963
02:02:23,000 --> 02:02:28,560
this Doge outfit does start dismantling the managerial estate, managerial state.

1964
02:02:29,279 --> 02:02:32,960
That's what he's fighting for. So why is he complaining

1965
02:02:32,960 --> 02:02:35,760
about what? Is he expecting them to invite them in

1966
02:02:35,800 --> 02:02:38,800
there so he can tell them everything that they're doing wrong,

1967
02:02:39,039 --> 02:02:41,239
because we have to keep doing We just have to

1968
02:02:41,239 --> 02:02:46,760
go back to the nineties. Bro I heard was so Amari?

1969
02:02:47,880 --> 02:02:52,239
And which one is so Habo Mari? He's the one?

1970
02:02:52,840 --> 02:02:53,479
Is he Claremont?

1971
02:02:54,840 --> 02:02:57,720
Speaker 2: What I think he's Is he an editor for Compact?

1972
02:02:59,279 --> 02:03:05,560
Speaker 1: Yeah? Who's like? Is he associated with Claremont? I can't remember,

1973
02:03:06,039 --> 02:03:09,359
but I think yeah. So. And he was talking to

1974
02:03:09,439 --> 02:03:13,319
Dave Rubin and this was three or four years ago,

1975
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:16,199
and when I was just listening to everything and now

1976
02:03:16,199 --> 02:03:18,600
I just can't listen to everything. And they were talking

1977
02:03:18,600 --> 02:03:20,720
about how they we need to go back ten years.

1978
02:03:21,880 --> 02:03:25,199
This all started falling apart ten years ago. And I'm like,

1979
02:03:26,720 --> 02:03:32,239
who's asking Who listens to that and takes that seriously?

1980
02:03:33,359 --> 02:03:36,720
Who says, in like in twenty twenty one that we

1981
02:03:36,760 --> 02:03:39,079
just need to go back to twenty eleven? What we

1982
02:03:39,119 --> 02:03:40,840
need to go back to ab the ending of Barack

1983
02:03:40,840 --> 02:03:45,800
Obama's first term. But these people are retarded, and I'm

1984
02:03:45,960 --> 02:03:49,159
fully convinced. I become convinced of this more than I

1985
02:03:50,119 --> 02:03:53,920
the longer I do this. These people are just trying

1986
02:03:53,920 --> 02:03:57,800
to keep a job. There's just they're just saying the

1987
02:03:57,800 --> 02:04:01,920
things that they need to stay in their job. If

1988
02:04:01,920 --> 02:04:04,600
they were to deviate one bit, they'd get fired. They'd

1989
02:04:04,640 --> 02:04:07,720
have to go somewhere else, they'd have to Why would

1990
02:04:07,720 --> 02:04:10,399
you change your opinions on Why would you all of

1991
02:04:10,439 --> 02:04:13,520
a sudden become a Karl Schmidt fan? You know when

1992
02:04:13,560 --> 02:04:17,439
you've been when you've been a John Locke, when you've

1993
02:04:17,439 --> 02:04:22,560
been promoting lockey in philosophy your whole life, especially if

1994
02:04:22,560 --> 02:04:26,319
you're making your living off of it, you're cutting your

1995
02:04:26,319 --> 02:04:30,640
income off. That's why Lindsay. That's why Lindsay's acting the

1996
02:04:30,640 --> 02:04:35,560
way he is is because he's his income. He's seeing

1997
02:04:36,039 --> 02:04:40,439
his potential downfall and more than that, not being invited

1998
02:04:40,479 --> 02:04:44,359
to be on the stage anymore. And he's one of

1999
02:04:44,359 --> 02:04:45,600
those people who can't take that.

2000
02:04:47,880 --> 02:04:51,880
Speaker 2: I know all this. I was thinking the exact words

2001
02:04:52,119 --> 02:04:55,439
you were saying as you were saying them, Which is

2002
02:04:55,479 --> 02:04:58,359
that a big part of getting involved with this in

2003
02:04:58,359 --> 02:05:01,119
this scene for me has been realizing some of us

2004
02:05:01,199 --> 02:05:05,279
are fighting for ideals and outcomes, and some of us

2005
02:05:05,319 --> 02:05:09,319
are fighting for paychecks. So that's very astute, totally co

2006
02:05:09,479 --> 02:05:13,600
signed that. As far as Sorabamari is concerned, I do

2007
02:05:13,680 --> 02:05:17,479
believe he's connected with Claremont. He was the editor of

2008
02:05:17,520 --> 02:05:21,199
Compact and Commentary. He is the editor of Compact now.

2009
02:05:21,640 --> 02:05:25,359
He was previously the editor of Commentary, and I do

2010
02:05:25,399 --> 02:05:28,680
think he was like a Claremont fellow or something. But yeah,

2011
02:05:28,720 --> 02:05:31,279
I mean, yeah, it's not surprising that these people would

2012
02:05:31,319 --> 02:05:35,560
want to go back to the period when their sinecure

2013
02:05:35,680 --> 02:05:37,640
first opened up. Like, yeah, I want to go back

2014
02:05:37,680 --> 02:05:40,000
to ten years ago when you open the floodgates and

2015
02:05:40,039 --> 02:05:44,920
gave me, you know, a lifetime job at gay Boy Inc.

2016
02:05:45,399 --> 02:05:49,640
Or whatever, you know, like publishing bullshit dot com. Like yes, please,

2017
02:05:49,680 --> 02:05:51,600
I want to go back to that time so that

2018
02:05:51,640 --> 02:05:55,159
I can have that job. I don't know that I

2019
02:05:55,199 --> 02:05:57,439
have anything else to say on that point other than

2020
02:05:59,359 --> 02:06:04,479
when you asked, like, what influence would James Lindsay have

2021
02:06:04,640 --> 02:06:07,520
on the incoming Trump administration? I immediately thought of that

2022
02:06:07,680 --> 02:06:12,000
really weird anti Saint Michael bit He was on like,

2023
02:06:12,199 --> 02:06:14,399
so imagine you're Donald Trump, Like you can't even get

2024
02:06:14,439 --> 02:06:17,479
a tweet out the front door with that James lindsay, like,

2025
02:06:18,720 --> 02:06:22,000
excuse me, this is really a big problem and you

2026
02:06:22,079 --> 02:06:24,279
need to stop doing it. It's like, Okay, this guy

2027
02:06:24,359 --> 02:06:27,279
is trying to like kick forty million people out the

2028
02:06:27,279 --> 02:06:32,119
front door, and you're raising a stink over at Tweet like, yeah,

2029
02:06:32,399 --> 02:06:35,600
you don't actually have a place here, and uh and

2030
02:06:35,640 --> 02:06:37,560
don't let the door hit you on the way out.

2031
02:06:37,920 --> 02:06:41,239
Speaker 1: He was wrong about Arn McIntyre being the guy behind that.

2032
02:06:41,960 --> 02:06:43,760
I'm the one with the saint. I'm the one with

2033
02:06:43,840 --> 02:06:47,000
the saint. Michael coyn right next to me when I uh,

2034
02:06:48,199 --> 02:06:49,479
when I podcast.

2035
02:06:49,000 --> 02:06:51,439
Speaker 2: It was you, it was you all along a ha ha.

2036
02:06:52,720 --> 02:06:56,840
Speaker 1: Tell everybody about your book on conspiracy theories necessarily conspiracy theories.

2037
02:06:57,920 --> 02:07:00,000
Speaker 2: Yes, so yeah, last time we were on we talked

2038
02:07:00,039 --> 02:07:04,199
about American extremist imperium Press, the chapter on individualism and

2039
02:07:04,239 --> 02:07:08,880
socialism or sociopathy rather. Yeah, my book came out in

2040
02:07:08,880 --> 02:07:11,479
February of this year. It's actually part one of two,

2041
02:07:12,079 --> 02:07:14,479
and the new book is coming out early next year.

2042
02:07:14,520 --> 02:07:19,560
But understanding conspiracy Theories, I had worked on it for

2043
02:07:19,600 --> 02:07:24,560
like five years. It's half of everything I have to

2044
02:07:24,560 --> 02:07:27,560
say about the subject matter. But yeah, I came into

2045
02:07:27,640 --> 02:07:33,199
nationalism through the conspiracy content if you want to stay online.

2046
02:07:33,640 --> 02:07:37,960
You know, I read all the Jim Mars books I read.

2047
02:07:38,079 --> 02:07:40,239
You know, I listened to Alex Jones. I watched his

2048
02:07:40,359 --> 02:07:43,159
documentaries on the police State. I listened to Coast to

2049
02:07:43,279 --> 02:07:47,239
Coast I watched I was a young person, a very

2050
02:07:47,239 --> 02:07:51,439
young person, when loose change and Zeitgeist were like the

2051
02:07:51,560 --> 02:07:57,359
thing on the internets, and it was really harrowing, honestly

2052
02:07:57,800 --> 02:08:00,399
to like develop a content like to be I'm a

2053
02:08:00,520 --> 02:08:05,079
man hormonally and like mentally, at the same time you're

2054
02:08:05,119 --> 02:08:09,760
being hit with this incredible technology called the Internet and

2055
02:08:10,000 --> 02:08:13,520
all of the information we have available to the human species.

2056
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:15,880
So you know, I'm and of course I grew up

2057
02:08:15,880 --> 02:08:18,199
with nine to eleven. Like I remember the day the

2058
02:08:18,279 --> 02:08:21,600
towers hit. I was sitting in my sophomore biology class

2059
02:08:22,039 --> 02:08:24,840
with the cute redhead teacher at my Catholic high school

2060
02:08:25,560 --> 02:08:29,600
and being pulled out of the classroom thinking that my

2061
02:08:29,640 --> 02:08:31,560
father was dead. You know. So like these are all

2062
02:08:31,600 --> 02:08:35,279
deeply like and there's hundreds of thousands of people, millions

2063
02:08:35,319 --> 02:08:37,520
of people with the story just like that. So it's

2064
02:08:37,520 --> 02:08:40,079
not my pity story that I'm saying to your audience.

2065
02:08:41,600 --> 02:08:44,079
Lots of people have stories like that. I Yeah, I

2066
02:08:44,079 --> 02:08:47,079
grew up in New York City. That was the formation

2067
02:08:47,159 --> 02:08:50,600
of my consciousness. I remember when you could go on

2068
02:08:50,640 --> 02:08:54,319
an airplane and it was nice, And I remember a

2069
02:08:54,319 --> 02:08:56,960
couple of years later when you went on an airplane

2070
02:08:56,960 --> 02:09:01,159
and a morbidly obese Haitian person grabbed yours Like I

2071
02:09:01,319 --> 02:09:09,720
lived through that. Okay, So the Patriot Act and everything

2072
02:09:09,760 --> 02:09:14,760
that followed from that. So the idea of of and

2073
02:09:14,800 --> 02:09:17,800
now we're living in this moment where conspiracy theories are

2074
02:09:18,239 --> 02:09:19,960
kind of like a thing you can cash in on.

2075
02:09:20,359 --> 02:09:23,239
It's like a career. You can be an all media

2076
02:09:23,359 --> 02:09:26,680
guy with a TikTok account doing the whole you know,

2077
02:09:26,760 --> 02:09:30,359
your your blurry face in front of like a text

2078
02:09:30,399 --> 02:09:33,399
scroll going isn't this look at this and this kind

2079
02:09:33,399 --> 02:09:35,000
ofct and here and here. It's like you can do

2080
02:09:35,039 --> 02:09:37,840
that as a career. And fifteen years ago, twenty years ago,

2081
02:09:38,199 --> 02:09:41,119
if you did that, you were a pariah, you were medicated,

2082
02:09:41,600 --> 02:09:44,399
you were kicked out of polite society. So it took

2083
02:09:44,520 --> 02:09:49,359
me coming into this nationalist community learning a few new

2084
02:09:49,399 --> 02:09:54,520
things that mainstream conspiracy culture from ten years ago didn't

2085
02:09:54,560 --> 02:09:58,560
let you in on. People like Michael Collins Piper, like

2086
02:09:58,640 --> 02:10:01,359
if I had known about Michael as Piper fifteen years ago,

2087
02:10:01,439 --> 02:10:03,399
it would have saved me a lot of trouble. I

2088
02:10:03,479 --> 02:10:05,600
didn't learn about him until like two and a half

2089
02:10:05,680 --> 02:10:09,920
years ago, and it's like, oh, well, this guy. It's

2090
02:10:09,960 --> 02:10:13,199
not like the skeleton key that literally unlocks everything, but

2091
02:10:13,399 --> 02:10:16,960
it clears up a lot of stuff. So I think

2092
02:10:17,000 --> 02:10:21,239
the thing that's really that at my selling point for

2093
02:10:21,279 --> 02:10:25,680
the book is the the there's a neutral way to

2094
02:10:25,720 --> 02:10:29,920
think about conspiracy theories because we're now in this point

2095
02:10:29,960 --> 02:10:33,479
where people of a certain age like that is who

2096
02:10:33,520 --> 02:10:37,479
their identity is. It's like I just am a conspiracy theorist, right,

2097
02:10:38,039 --> 02:10:41,960
And there's it's very difficult to think clearly because there's

2098
02:10:42,039 --> 02:10:45,399
sort there's sort of this heuristic in the conspiracy theory

2099
02:10:45,399 --> 02:10:51,520
community where because you had this skepticism about things that

2100
02:10:51,600 --> 02:10:54,479
happened in the past, you have this sort of like

2101
02:10:54,560 --> 02:10:58,880
gnostic pure knowledge of everything that's happening now and conspiracy

2102
02:10:58,880 --> 02:11:01,640
Oh it's this is a false flag, just like what

2103
02:11:01,680 --> 02:11:05,479
I saw ten years ago. There are heuristics that work,

2104
02:11:05,600 --> 02:11:07,920
and then they are heuristics that don't work. And so

2105
02:11:08,199 --> 02:11:09,880
like what I was trying to do with this book

2106
02:11:10,000 --> 02:11:13,920
was try to establish Okay, really, what is a conspiracy theory?

2107
02:11:15,960 --> 02:11:20,399
How does it work? Why is everyone today in this

2108
02:11:21,439 --> 02:11:27,800
hyper vigilant, paranoid, neurotic mindset where there is a conspiracy

2109
02:11:27,880 --> 02:11:32,720
lurking or i should say, an illegitimate conspiracy lurking behind

2110
02:11:32,760 --> 02:11:37,960
every door. Ten years ago, if you were a liberal Democrat,

2111
02:11:38,359 --> 02:11:40,520
the big bad and it actually has been the same

2112
02:11:40,560 --> 02:11:43,680
conspiracy theory for the last ten years. The big conspiracy

2113
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:50,279
was Russia, Russian bots, Russian hacking coutin Donald Trump got

2114
02:11:50,399 --> 02:11:53,840
urinated on by a prostitute in a Russian hotel, and

2115
02:11:53,880 --> 02:11:56,079
that's the blackmail they've got. Sorry to be lewde with

2116
02:11:56,119 --> 02:11:58,680
you and your audience, but you know, maybe if you've

2117
02:11:58,720 --> 02:12:00,720
got young people in your audience, they didn't know that

2118
02:12:00,720 --> 02:12:04,159
that happened. If you were going through the first Trump campaign,

2119
02:12:04,359 --> 02:12:07,039
like that was the October surprise and we're all just

2120
02:12:07,079 --> 02:12:11,279
sitting here like are you kidding me? So the basic

2121
02:12:11,319 --> 02:12:16,600
punchline here is a conspiracy theory effectively is a folk

2122
02:12:16,680 --> 02:12:19,800
account of history. It's you and me trying to figure

2123
02:12:19,840 --> 02:12:23,319
out what's actually happening, without the benefit of a PhD,

2124
02:12:23,880 --> 02:12:27,800
without the benefit of a Walter Cronkite, without the benefit

2125
02:12:27,880 --> 02:12:32,840
of some expert or authority, a regime a James Lindsay,

2126
02:12:33,119 --> 02:12:38,119
a regime approved personality who can disseminate a coherent narrative

2127
02:12:38,239 --> 02:12:40,359
to us so that we can go back to sleep

2128
02:12:40,680 --> 02:12:42,880
and then go to work and then pet you know,

2129
02:12:42,920 --> 02:12:44,960
a little Pete junior on the head and send them

2130
02:12:44,960 --> 02:12:47,359
off to soccer practice, you know, the things that make

2131
02:12:47,760 --> 02:12:50,840
our day to day life livable. So what you really

2132
02:12:50,880 --> 02:12:55,399
have is that this folk history and then regime history,

2133
02:12:56,119 --> 02:12:59,000
and there's this tension between the two. So I talk

2134
02:12:59,039 --> 02:13:01,079
a lot about that. I bring in a lot of

2135
02:13:01,119 --> 02:13:04,640
Marshall mccluan to talk about how the Internet has created

2136
02:13:04,720 --> 02:13:10,359
this unique paranoid culture. That gentleman he was on Joe Rogan.

2137
02:13:10,439 --> 02:13:15,840
He popularized the phrase mass formation psychosis. You know, that's

2138
02:13:15,920 --> 02:13:18,640
been one of these phrases to explain kind of why

2139
02:13:18,680 --> 02:13:24,039
everyone is so crazy and why everyone is so distrusting

2140
02:13:24,319 --> 02:13:26,800
of the things that they see and the people that

2141
02:13:26,840 --> 02:13:30,439
they live around. I don't think we actually need novel language.

2142
02:13:30,479 --> 02:13:33,600
I don't think we need, if anything, this book does

2143
02:13:33,960 --> 02:13:36,520
very similarly what my first book did, which was like

2144
02:13:36,840 --> 02:13:39,880
take the psychology out of it, take the psychiatry out

2145
02:13:39,880 --> 02:13:41,680
of it. Because as I make the point with the

2146
02:13:41,760 --> 02:13:47,439
you know, Jim, Lindsay and Hofstad are the psychology that's

2147
02:13:47,479 --> 02:13:50,039
been used to make sense of our political life has

2148
02:13:50,159 --> 02:13:55,640
made it worse because it isn't a psychological problem. Intrinsically,

2149
02:13:56,159 --> 02:14:02,000
it's a political problem. It's a social, cultural, civilizational, historical problem.

2150
02:14:02,399 --> 02:14:05,640
We're dealing with real things, not just artifacts of the mind,

2151
02:14:06,199 --> 02:14:07,920
and we need to be able to treat it that way.

2152
02:14:08,000 --> 02:14:11,800
So that was probably a little incoherent. But it's a

2153
02:14:11,800 --> 02:14:13,800
great book, and I hope your audience loves it.

2154
02:14:14,600 --> 02:14:18,760
Speaker 1: No anything I promote anything from Imperium Press. I send

2155
02:14:18,800 --> 02:14:21,439
people there all the time and they just get lost

2156
02:14:21,479 --> 02:14:24,760
in it. Thank you for mentioning Coast to Coast, though

2157
02:14:24,800 --> 02:14:28,640
it reminds me I haven't listened. To keep it on

2158
02:14:28,680 --> 02:14:30,479
my phone to listen to every once in a while.

2159
02:14:30,600 --> 02:14:36,159
His nineteen ninety six interview with William Luther Pierce about that. Yeah,

2160
02:14:36,199 --> 02:14:39,720
and it was one of the only episodes that you'll

2161
02:14:39,760 --> 02:14:44,520
ever hear art Bell like going at the guests, like

2162
02:14:44,640 --> 02:14:48,199
attacking the guests. It's wild. But the thing I love

2163
02:14:48,199 --> 02:14:52,720
about it is Pierce is just so even I'm here

2164
02:14:52,760 --> 02:14:55,159
to tell here to tell my story, I'm here to

2165
02:14:56,359 --> 02:14:59,520
answer all these ridiculous claims that have been made and everything.

2166
02:14:59,560 --> 02:15:02,199
But yeah, there's some there's some good stuff out there,

2167
02:15:02,199 --> 02:15:06,079
and yeah, Turner Diaries and Hunter, those are good books

2168
02:15:06,079 --> 02:15:11,399
to check out, you know, and there some compelling writing.

2169
02:15:11,560 --> 02:15:12,399
To say the least.

2170
02:15:12,600 --> 02:15:16,600
Speaker 2: There Not to slam Alex Jones because he's sort of

2171
02:15:16,640 --> 02:15:18,960
a folk hero for a lot of people, even to me,

2172
02:15:19,840 --> 02:15:23,720
but it's like, yeah, Coast coasted that in the nineties,

2173
02:15:23,960 --> 02:15:27,399
and it took Alex Jones until like twenty seventeen to

2174
02:15:27,479 --> 02:15:30,720
have David Duke on and he came at David Duke

2175
02:15:30,760 --> 02:15:34,199
the same way that William Luther PIERCEC. Gott treated So

2176
02:15:34,800 --> 02:15:39,520
it's the same kind of tension in the right wing.

2177
02:15:40,239 --> 02:15:42,079
And this is one of the hypotheses of my book

2178
02:15:42,119 --> 02:15:43,880
and my new book. It goes back to the John

2179
02:15:43,920 --> 02:15:48,039
Birch society in effect, where you have or between Buckley

2180
02:15:48,239 --> 02:15:51,479
and the National Review and the Real Rights, or between

2181
02:15:51,560 --> 02:15:56,159
Buchanan and the Conservative inc. There's this tension between the

2182
02:15:56,720 --> 02:16:01,439
mainstream post war consensus right and then the more principled

2183
02:16:01,479 --> 02:16:05,760
hardline nationalists, and that has always existed. This is why

2184
02:16:05,800 --> 02:16:09,960
there wasn't alt right. This is why James Lindsay complains

2185
02:16:10,039 --> 02:16:13,319
in that interview with Constantine kissing. Well, they don't even

2186
02:16:13,439 --> 02:16:16,800
actually attack the left, who supposed their real enemy. All

2187
02:16:16,840 --> 02:16:19,960
they ever do is attack the conservatives because conservative inc.

2188
02:16:20,520 --> 02:16:24,119
Is a proximately our biggest threat, because our message. We

2189
02:16:24,199 --> 02:16:28,319
have to squeeze our message through this very narrow funnel

2190
02:16:28,399 --> 02:16:31,600
to get half or a quarter or a third of

2191
02:16:31,720 --> 02:16:37,840
our ideas out in this very domesticated way, because conservative inc.

2192
02:16:37,920 --> 02:16:41,159
Is the problem. What did Nixon say, right a thousand times?

2193
02:16:41,200 --> 02:16:44,319
The media is the enemy. Conservative inc. Is the enemy.

2194
02:16:44,360 --> 02:16:46,440
So that's you know, that says it all right there.

2195
02:16:47,079 --> 02:16:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't the Clintons that got got Sam Francis

2196
02:16:51,079 --> 02:16:56,360
canceled and fired from his job. Yeah, it was the

2197
02:16:56,760 --> 02:17:01,520
un right wingers. Yeah, all right, Josh, I appreciate it,

2198
02:17:01,520 --> 02:17:05,440
thank you, and let's do it again. STIM appreciate it absolutely.

2199
02:17:07,239 --> 02:17:10,440
I want to welcome everyone back to the Pegana Show. Josh,

2200
02:17:10,479 --> 02:17:13,680
Neil's back. What's happening, Josh, It's going well.

2201
02:17:13,719 --> 02:17:16,200
Speaker 2: Pete love talking to you. Thanks for the invite as well.

2202
02:17:16,520 --> 02:17:20,760
You're a very gracious host and we always have good conversations.

2203
02:17:20,799 --> 02:17:21,879
I'm looking forward to it today.

2204
02:17:22,520 --> 02:17:25,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate that a lot. Thank

2205
02:17:25,719 --> 02:17:28,040
you for doing the Old Glory Club live stream last week.

2206
02:17:29,120 --> 02:17:33,799
Gave us some context into the JFK mess and and

2207
02:17:33,959 --> 02:17:38,479
other things. But last time you were, we were Last

2208
02:17:38,479 --> 02:17:41,079
time you were on, we talked about the term woke right,

2209
02:17:41,159 --> 02:17:43,719
and we talked a little bit about your second book,

2210
02:17:44,559 --> 02:17:50,159
Understanding Conspiracy Theories. But the new book, Intolerant and Intolerant

2211
02:17:50,200 --> 02:17:56,719
Interpretations is starts to go even beyond that and really

2212
02:17:56,760 --> 02:18:00,840
starts to get into start tearing apart. It seems like

2213
02:18:01,280 --> 02:18:04,719
you're trying to tear apart like the basis behind these

2214
02:18:04,760 --> 02:18:10,600
conspiracy theories, where they came from, and basically how they

2215
02:18:10,719 --> 02:18:15,159
grew and specifically you know, it's really easy to say, oh,

2216
02:18:15,200 --> 02:18:19,000
the president's head exploded, and you know it looks like

2217
02:18:19,079 --> 02:18:21,719
it came from the front, but you know they're saying

2218
02:18:21,719 --> 02:18:24,239
it came from the back. But no, it goes much

2219
02:18:24,319 --> 02:18:27,120
deeper than that. When when when you start getting into

2220
02:18:27,680 --> 02:18:31,239
conspiracy theories. So you know the first part of your

2221
02:18:31,280 --> 02:18:35,559
new book you specifically talk about Richard Hofstetter and Carl Popper,

2222
02:18:36,239 --> 02:18:39,440
So jump in there and start talking to you know,

2223
02:18:39,520 --> 02:18:43,639
if you can start to start there and take us

2224
02:18:43,680 --> 02:18:47,879
down the road of where we're at where where we

2225
02:18:48,040 --> 02:18:49,959
came from to get to where we are now.

2226
02:18:50,600 --> 02:18:53,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, so again thanks for having me on to talk

2227
02:18:53,079 --> 02:18:57,239
about the book available with their Antelope Hill Publishing. It's

2228
02:18:57,280 --> 02:18:59,079
called Intolerant Interpretations.

2229
02:18:59,639 --> 02:19:02,840
Speaker 1: And and if you if you use code, guess code

2230
02:19:02,879 --> 02:19:07,319
pete q off. So yeah, I've been an olybel things

2231
02:19:07,360 --> 02:19:08,000
so cool.

2232
02:19:07,959 --> 02:19:11,360
Speaker 2: Awesome, awesome. I view it as a sequel to understanding

2233
02:19:11,360 --> 02:19:15,000
conspiracy theories. Uh, it's written that way. And yeah, as

2234
02:19:15,040 --> 02:19:21,760
you pointed out, the book starts with sort of a

2235
02:19:21,879 --> 02:19:28,760
genealogy of this like anti conspiracy polemic. It's called actually

2236
02:19:28,760 --> 02:19:31,719
the first chapter it's called and abbreviated genealogy because honestly,

2237
02:19:31,719 --> 02:19:34,559
if we really put our thinking hats on it, probably,

2238
02:19:35,000 --> 02:19:38,760
you know, we could look much further into the past, uh,

2239
02:19:38,879 --> 02:19:40,879
to to figure out how we got to where we

2240
02:19:40,879 --> 02:19:44,319
are today. But the very recent history, very recent past,

2241
02:19:44,399 --> 02:19:49,319
is certainly enough history to kind of understand the climate

2242
02:19:49,360 --> 02:19:51,280
that we're in now. And so yeah, I did single

2243
02:19:51,280 --> 02:19:54,360
out Carl Popper and I singled out Richard Hofstadter for

2244
02:19:54,399 --> 02:19:58,239
two I think very important reasons. I was kind of

2245
02:19:58,239 --> 02:20:02,280
imagine myself having to do a robot when I talk

2246
02:20:02,360 --> 02:20:05,319
about my books or offer some of my arguments, and

2247
02:20:05,319 --> 02:20:10,079
one of those, like my imaginary interlocutor is, you know, well,

2248
02:20:10,079 --> 02:20:12,799
why pick on Carl Popper, why pick on Richard Hofstadter?

2249
02:20:12,879 --> 02:20:16,760
What makes them so important? And there's really two reasons,

2250
02:20:16,840 --> 02:20:24,639
one for each. The first reason being that Carl Popper

2251
02:20:24,959 --> 02:20:30,040
is basically the philosopher of the open society. He's the

2252
02:20:30,040 --> 02:20:35,639
philosopher of the great replacement. And he's also because of

2253
02:20:35,680 --> 02:20:41,879
his a lot of his intellectual work dealt with epistemology

2254
02:20:42,040 --> 02:20:45,159
and things like that, he's also kind of like the

2255
02:20:45,159 --> 02:20:50,840
philosopher for the anti conspiracy theory point of view. And

2256
02:20:50,879 --> 02:20:53,159
there's two really important works that he wrote that I

2257
02:20:53,239 --> 02:20:56,520
critique in the book. Obviously. The first is The Open

2258
02:20:56,600 --> 02:20:58,719
Society and Its Enemies, and it's like a seven or

2259
02:20:58,760 --> 02:21:04,040
eight hundred book. Basically, it's like the be all and

2260
02:21:04,200 --> 02:21:09,319
end all of liberal democracy apology, right, that's kind of

2261
02:21:09,319 --> 02:21:13,399
what it's a seven hundred, eight hundred page book justifying

2262
02:21:13,879 --> 02:21:18,399
why open societies, which is to say, liberal democracies are

2263
02:21:18,799 --> 02:21:25,399
superior and preferable to closed societies. And he gives several

2264
02:21:25,440 --> 02:21:34,639
examples of what constitutes a closed society NSDAP Germany, Soviet Russia,

2265
02:21:35,959 --> 02:21:39,239
Fascist Europe, whether we're looking at Spain or Italy or

2266
02:21:39,399 --> 02:21:42,200
Romania or really any of the countries where there was

2267
02:21:42,239 --> 02:21:46,600
a fascist movement. But he even goes way back into

2268
02:21:46,959 --> 02:21:53,239
human history. The original closed society was Plato. Plato's republic

2269
02:21:53,399 --> 02:21:58,399
is basically the if the open society and its enemies

2270
02:21:58,959 --> 02:22:04,520
is the apotheosis of liberal democracy, then Plato's republic is

2271
02:22:04,559 --> 02:22:11,959
really the apotheosis, the intellectual apotheosis of you know, nativist, authoritarian,

2272
02:22:14,200 --> 02:22:21,760
ethnically and culturally heterogeneous states. That's what Popper. And again

2273
02:22:21,799 --> 02:22:25,360
maybe some context on Popper. He was from Central Europe.

2274
02:22:25,399 --> 02:22:31,280
He was from a well educated, high cultured bourgeois I

2275
02:22:31,319 --> 02:22:35,040
want to say, Lutheran family. I think Richard Hofstadder came

2276
02:22:35,040 --> 02:22:37,840
from a Lutheran family, so maybe Popper wasn't. But anyway,

2277
02:22:37,879 --> 02:22:43,280
they were upper class Jewish, ethnically Jewish living in Europe,

2278
02:22:43,719 --> 02:22:50,479
and Popper in particular saw both sides of that authoritarian coin.

2279
02:22:51,200 --> 02:22:54,959
He was a Communist in his youth, he almost died

2280
02:22:55,159 --> 02:22:58,360
at a Communist rally, and then he was some time

2281
02:22:58,479 --> 02:23:03,520
later obviously persecuted or felt the heat of the German

2282
02:23:03,600 --> 02:23:07,239
Reich on his heels, and he fled Europe and he

2283
02:23:07,360 --> 02:23:11,159
sought sanctuary basically in what we tend to think of

2284
02:23:11,200 --> 02:23:16,159
as the Atlanticist states, England, the United States, I think

2285
02:23:16,159 --> 02:23:22,760
even New Zealand. And so that experience informed his philosophy

2286
02:23:23,079 --> 02:23:27,120
about the superiority of liberal democracies, and as a kind

2287
02:23:27,120 --> 02:23:32,360
of second hand to that work, in the mid fifties,

2288
02:23:32,399 --> 02:23:36,120
he published a very very short essay like three pages

2289
02:23:36,680 --> 02:23:42,239
called The Conspiracy Theory of Society, and basically this was

2290
02:23:42,280 --> 02:23:48,600
his anti conspiracy polemic. He compares in that short essay,

2291
02:23:48,600 --> 02:23:55,479
he basically compares conspiracy theory epistemology to something like homer

2292
02:23:55,799 --> 02:24:01,159
or Homeric thinking, where that you've got this olympus of

2293
02:24:01,280 --> 02:24:07,559
deities that are really pulling all the strings, and more

2294
02:24:07,600 --> 02:24:10,840
than just pulling all the strings, they're specifically moving people

2295
02:24:10,879 --> 02:24:15,000
into place and positioning them to take important roles. So

2296
02:24:15,040 --> 02:24:17,200
he basically says, you know, when you abandon, when you

2297
02:24:17,239 --> 02:24:23,239
abandon God, you elevate man into this theistic state, and

2298
02:24:23,319 --> 02:24:29,639
so men become these supreme agents, capable of all kinds

2299
02:24:29,680 --> 02:24:34,079
of unexpected, unanticipated, shadowy conduct.

2300
02:24:34,239 --> 02:24:39,000
Speaker 1: And what's interesting there is that is immediately, you know,

2301
02:24:39,079 --> 02:24:42,719
I think of Riizard Leguco his book The Demon and Democracy,

2302
02:24:43,200 --> 02:24:47,399
where he compares democracy and communism and just shows how

2303
02:24:48,200 --> 02:24:53,280
parallel they are in having to sell themselves. And all

2304
02:24:53,319 --> 02:24:58,600
that does is it sounds like he's selling. He's doing

2305
02:24:58,639 --> 02:25:02,040
his best to sell liberal democrac or sy while either

2306
02:25:02,200 --> 02:25:06,719
hiding or not understanding that in order for liberal democracy

2307
02:25:06,799 --> 02:25:12,280
to continue, a conspiracy does have to happen. But it's

2308
02:25:12,399 --> 02:25:16,200
not one continuous conspiracy. It's one conspiracy takes over and

2309
02:25:16,200 --> 02:25:19,159
that gets supplanted by another conspiracy and another, and it's

2310
02:25:19,239 --> 02:25:22,200
just not on down the line and you have you

2311
02:25:22,239 --> 02:25:24,159
just have competing conspiracies the all time.

2312
02:25:25,520 --> 02:25:29,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's a chain of conspiracy? Like a never ending

2313
02:25:29,600 --> 02:25:33,719
chain of conspiracies? Well, what Popper says is different. He

2314
02:25:33,760 --> 02:25:38,639
actually says that things that we don't like Basically, he argues,

2315
02:25:38,680 --> 02:25:43,360
we attribute outcomes that we don't like to conspiratorial origins.

2316
02:25:43,920 --> 02:25:47,120
But what he claims is really happening is that there

2317
02:25:47,159 --> 02:25:51,239
are simply unexpected consequences, sort of like that old line

2318
02:25:51,440 --> 02:25:53,840
the road to hell is paved with good intentions, like

2319
02:25:53,920 --> 02:26:00,280
the road to conspiratorial thinking is paved with unintended consequences. So,

2320
02:26:00,360 --> 02:26:05,600
and he says things like you know, economic depressions, military conflicts,

2321
02:26:06,200 --> 02:26:10,680
societal collapse, the whole list are. These are all things

2322
02:26:10,719 --> 02:26:15,239
that come about as a consequence of other political actions

2323
02:26:15,600 --> 02:26:21,239
that are being undertaken, and that a social theorist's responsibility

2324
02:26:21,440 --> 02:26:25,200
is to trace those lines and figure out the causality. Right,

2325
02:26:25,280 --> 02:26:31,200
But ultimately it's never a conspiracy. Man does not replace God.

2326
02:26:31,879 --> 02:26:37,319
Everything can be understood empirically through proper social theory, social

2327
02:26:37,360 --> 02:26:41,399
proper social theorizing. And so that's why I chose Carl Popper,

2328
02:26:41,719 --> 02:26:45,760
because he has such a monumental legacy, and the more

2329
02:26:45,799 --> 02:26:49,639
you dig into it, actually the kind of creepier it gets.

2330
02:26:49,959 --> 02:26:52,159
A lot of the I will say a lot, but

2331
02:26:52,319 --> 02:26:58,440
some of the most well known names in the contemporary society,

2332
02:26:59,319 --> 02:27:05,879
people who are strong advocates of not only liberal democracy,

2333
02:27:06,000 --> 02:27:11,280
but also like the censorship regime and using state power

2334
02:27:11,360 --> 02:27:15,760
to prosecute political minorities, which is something that Carl Popper

2335
02:27:15,760 --> 02:27:19,120
advocated for. You find that a lot of the really

2336
02:27:19,159 --> 02:27:23,200
relevant people today were also connected to Carl Popper. Cass

2337
02:27:23,280 --> 02:27:27,920
Sunstein was a student of Carl Popper. George Soros was

2338
02:27:27,959 --> 02:27:31,360
a student of Karl Popper. I think Richard Hofstadter may

2339
02:27:31,399 --> 02:27:34,239
also have been at one point affiliated with him, So

2340
02:27:34,319 --> 02:27:39,920
he beyond his own works, Carl Popper was a mentor to,

2341
02:27:40,399 --> 02:27:46,360
or had close relationships with basically anyone who's ever had

2342
02:27:46,399 --> 02:27:50,000
a bugaboo about nativism, so he was a really obvious

2343
02:27:50,040 --> 02:27:55,079
example to pick. Richard Hofstadter, on the other hand, I think,

2344
02:27:55,520 --> 02:27:58,040
if I had to guess, it's kind of a name

2345
02:27:58,120 --> 02:28:04,520
that not many people think anymore. He died somewhat early on,

2346
02:28:05,120 --> 02:28:07,840
but he had a very successful career as an academic

2347
02:28:07,959 --> 02:28:13,360
historian and public intellectual in the mid twentieth century. Many

2348
02:28:13,399 --> 02:28:15,840
of his several of his books won Politic Serprizes, so

2349
02:28:15,879 --> 02:28:18,799
he was really really creme de la creme. The Age

2350
02:28:18,799 --> 02:28:22,799
of Reform was a Politz Serprise winning book. I believe

2351
02:28:22,840 --> 02:28:25,920
that The Paranoid Style and American Politics was another Politz

2352
02:28:25,920 --> 02:28:33,000
Surprise winning essay, and in both of those works, Carl Popper,

2353
02:28:33,000 --> 02:28:38,920
excuse me. Richard Hofstadter basically takes aim at populists, rural

2354
02:28:39,040 --> 02:28:44,440
types middle you know, flyover Middle America with San Francis

2355
02:28:44,479 --> 02:28:49,280
would describe as Middle American radicals, the kinds of people

2356
02:28:49,360 --> 02:28:53,159
who probably donated to the John Birch Society, the kinds

2357
02:28:53,200 --> 02:28:56,440
of people who probably supported the Tea Party, the kinds

2358
02:28:56,440 --> 02:29:01,760
of people who became maga. Basically, in those two works,

2359
02:29:02,200 --> 02:29:05,319
he's going after populism and in particular he's going after

2360
02:29:05,360 --> 02:29:09,040
what he calls the paranoid style in American politics. And

2361
02:29:09,280 --> 02:29:15,120
Richard Hofstadter also has his own legacy of influencing academics

2362
02:29:15,120 --> 02:29:21,319
to write anti conspiracy polemics, and his most famous essay

2363
02:29:21,600 --> 02:29:26,120
was the Paranoid Style and American Politics. Basically he uses

2364
02:29:26,159 --> 02:29:31,120
Freudian psychoanalysis as a in an artful way. That's his

2365
02:29:31,200 --> 02:29:33,920
own word. By the way, I'll give you this the

2366
02:29:33,959 --> 02:29:37,120
second sort of two a to why I chose these guys.

2367
02:29:37,520 --> 02:29:41,239
But it's because of they tell them themselves basically in

2368
02:29:41,319 --> 02:29:44,079
their works they tell him themselves repeatedly, so it makes

2369
02:29:44,079 --> 02:29:45,159
for a good learning.

2370
02:29:45,559 --> 02:29:51,559
Speaker 1: This is a this is a running theme with a

2371
02:29:51,559 --> 02:29:55,360
certain group of people. They can't help themselves.

2372
02:29:55,799 --> 02:29:59,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in particular, Paper and hopstadd are like at

2373
02:29:59,120 --> 02:30:02,360
the top of the mountain of just letting you know

2374
02:30:02,399 --> 02:30:05,440
exactly what's on their mind. That's how you can, at

2375
02:30:05,520 --> 02:30:07,479
least for me. It's like, if you want to present

2376
02:30:07,520 --> 02:30:12,040
an argument and you want to present people as spearheads

2377
02:30:12,120 --> 02:30:16,760
or figureheads of a certain movement or whatever I mean,

2378
02:30:16,879 --> 02:30:19,319
you don't want to leave the audience feeling like you

2379
02:30:19,440 --> 02:30:22,239
arbitrary really picked these people or whatever. So I mean,

2380
02:30:22,479 --> 02:30:24,920
it was really great that in both cases they just

2381
02:30:26,680 --> 02:30:29,200
they just telling themselves. So in the essay of Paranoid

2382
02:30:29,239 --> 02:30:33,959
Style in American Politics, he's talking about Barry Goldwater. He

2383
02:30:34,079 --> 02:30:39,200
coins this term pseudo conservatism, and he talks about the

2384
02:30:39,239 --> 02:30:43,280
paranoid style. So he says he uses paranoid in an

2385
02:30:43,360 --> 02:30:50,440
artful way, appropriating it from psychoanalysis and psychology. I think

2386
02:30:50,479 --> 02:30:53,479
he says something like in the way that a historian

2387
02:30:53,559 --> 02:30:59,200
of art would describe a certain period as barok or whatever,

2388
02:30:59,440 --> 02:31:02,799
he wanted to use paranoid style in that same way. So,

2389
02:31:02,840 --> 02:31:04,879
which is like a way of saying, you're not doing

2390
02:31:04,959 --> 02:31:07,760
it academically, you're not doing it empirically, you're kind of

2391
02:31:08,200 --> 02:31:12,399
literally bastardizing language to serve a partisan end. Like if

2392
02:31:12,399 --> 02:31:15,680
you read between the lines, he's basically saying, I'm taking

2393
02:31:15,719 --> 02:31:18,319
this term that has a very specific meaning and application,

2394
02:31:18,639 --> 02:31:21,920
I'm taking it outside of his discipline, and I'm plopping

2395
02:31:21,920 --> 02:31:25,719
it in a completely different discipline in an informal way,

2396
02:31:26,600 --> 02:31:29,360
just because you know, and there's.

2397
02:31:29,159 --> 02:31:33,760
Speaker 1: Like so much of that today, so much of that today.

2398
02:31:33,799 --> 02:31:36,000
I don't know if you saw and I hate to

2399
02:31:36,239 --> 02:31:38,840
even talk about this person because it just gives him attention.

2400
02:31:39,360 --> 02:31:42,559
But Joel Berry from the Babylon b he said, there

2401
02:31:42,639 --> 02:31:46,719
is going he said, very soon, progressives are going to

2402
02:31:47,520 --> 02:31:55,879
start embracing white identity. Square peg round hole man, what

2403
02:31:55,920 --> 02:31:56,879
the hell are you doing?

2404
02:31:58,120 --> 02:31:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah?

2405
02:31:59,239 --> 02:32:03,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems you know, and then obviously the

2406
02:32:04,200 --> 02:32:09,120
most obvious one is the main wook right guy. What

2407
02:32:09,159 --> 02:32:12,200
the hell is the same James Lindsay. I mean, he's

2408
02:32:12,639 --> 02:32:17,559
you forget, he has nothing is he's incoherent. At this point,

2409
02:32:17,600 --> 02:32:21,719
it's gotten to the point where they they can't make

2410
02:32:22,360 --> 02:32:26,879
They know that they've lost, They know that neoliberalism is dying,

2411
02:32:27,040 --> 02:32:30,680
they know that the open society is falling apart what

2412
02:32:30,760 --> 02:32:35,000
they love the most, and they're doing every and it's

2413
02:32:35,879 --> 02:32:39,239
this isn't right after World War Two when you have

2414
02:32:39,280 --> 02:32:44,120
a couple of Jews who are basically advocating the open

2415
02:32:44,159 --> 02:32:46,680
society because they don't want to go back to what

2416
02:32:46,760 --> 02:32:50,079
it was just you know, ten years ago, and you know,

2417
02:32:50,120 --> 02:32:52,639
they need a society that they can blend in in.

2418
02:32:53,479 --> 02:32:56,920
And yeah, I mean we're past that at this point,

2419
02:32:57,079 --> 02:33:00,559
and especially especially since October twenty twenty three, which I

2420
02:33:00,600 --> 02:33:04,520
think is like literally a changing of the age like that,

2421
02:33:04,760 --> 02:33:05,879
like we're in a new age now.

2422
02:33:06,520 --> 02:33:15,040
Speaker 2: I totally agree, so Hofstadter basically, And there's a couple

2423
02:33:15,000 --> 02:33:17,319
of I don't want to spoil all of the really

2424
02:33:17,319 --> 02:33:19,840
really juicy bits of it, but there's so many like

2425
02:33:19,959 --> 02:33:23,000
telling on yourself moments, some of them like they weren't

2426
02:33:23,079 --> 02:33:25,959
obvious at the time. But there's one passage where he

2427
02:33:26,000 --> 02:33:32,639
talks about, Uh, there's a famous French psychoanalyst, Jacques lacan Uh.

2428
02:33:33,280 --> 02:33:36,719
He's sort of like a he's a structuralist, he's a feminist. Basically,

2429
02:33:36,760 --> 02:33:40,959
he's like your average like shit lib French intellectual had

2430
02:33:41,000 --> 02:33:45,680
all of the bad uh you know positions, political positions.

2431
02:33:44,920 --> 02:33:47,719
Speaker 1: Like a precursor to post like a precur precursor to

2432
02:33:47,760 --> 02:33:49,319
the French postmodernist or something like that.

2433
02:33:49,399 --> 02:33:53,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically one generation earlier than that, sort of overlapping

2434
02:33:53,440 --> 02:33:57,280
into the that movement getting its legs off the ground.

2435
02:33:58,120 --> 02:34:01,879
But there's a famous Lakhanian law that I think most people,

2436
02:34:04,280 --> 02:34:06,879
most readers in this sphere have kind of come across

2437
02:34:06,879 --> 02:34:09,000
one way or another. Gets quoted a lot. He says,

2438
02:34:09,040 --> 02:34:15,239
you know, if you're paranoid, if you fear that your

2439
02:34:15,239 --> 02:34:20,520
wife is cheating on you. Even if she is, you're

2440
02:34:20,559 --> 02:34:24,200
still paranoid and it's illegitimate to have that fear. So

2441
02:34:25,079 --> 02:34:27,799
so your wife is cheating on you, you're suspicious that

2442
02:34:27,879 --> 02:34:33,719
she's cheating on you. You're pathological. So look like Hofstadter takes

2443
02:34:33,719 --> 02:34:37,959
that and he uses it in the context of floridization

2444
02:34:38,239 --> 02:34:43,719
in the water supply. He says, you know, if even

2445
02:34:43,840 --> 02:34:46,440
if it came out to be true at some point

2446
02:34:46,440 --> 02:34:51,559
in the future that the government was putting contaminating the

2447
02:34:51,600 --> 02:34:58,000
water supply for expressly political, even socialist reasons, you would

2448
02:34:58,040 --> 02:35:01,000
that's still exemplary of the p aid style. And then

2449
02:35:01,319 --> 02:35:04,879
lo and behold, decades later, that's basically exactly what happened.

2450
02:35:06,079 --> 02:35:08,840
And that's like only the tip of the iceberg basically

2451
02:35:08,840 --> 02:35:13,280
in terms of contaminating the food supply, the water supply,

2452
02:35:13,520 --> 02:35:17,200
the soil, the air, everything that we kind of consume

2453
02:35:17,479 --> 02:35:24,200
and are just moving through even passively. Like we all know,

2454
02:35:24,280 --> 02:35:26,520
we all have the receipts on that. It's not a mystery.

2455
02:35:26,559 --> 02:35:29,319
There's it's basically pretty much an open and shutcase. It

2456
02:35:29,399 --> 02:35:33,120
did happen, It happened for expressly political reasons. Still people

2457
02:35:33,120 --> 02:35:36,000
still want it to happen. RFK junior, as he was

2458
02:35:36,040 --> 02:35:40,280
being sworn in as head of HHS, basically said we're

2459
02:35:40,319 --> 02:35:42,680
going to take the floride out of the water. So

2460
02:35:42,719 --> 02:35:45,719
it's like, oh, but you're still a crank if you

2461
02:35:45,799 --> 02:35:48,680
think that, You're still a crazy person if any of

2462
02:35:48,719 --> 02:35:53,000
that troubles you in any way. So to my imaginary

2463
02:35:53,000 --> 02:35:57,600
interlocutor who doesn't see any reason to specifically target these

2464
02:35:57,600 --> 02:36:01,520
two people as being progenitors of this way of thinking,

2465
02:36:02,920 --> 02:36:06,559
that's why that's kind of my rebuttal I was gonna

2466
02:36:06,559 --> 02:36:09,760
say before, there's like a two A aspect to that,

2467
02:36:09,920 --> 02:36:12,000
or like you know, like a tertiary aspect to that,

2468
02:36:12,479 --> 02:36:16,639
and it's it's entirely the way in which these these

2469
02:36:16,719 --> 02:36:21,559
academics basically told you what the final outcome of their

2470
02:36:21,719 --> 02:36:25,200
preferred political program would be. Towards the end of the

2471
02:36:25,200 --> 02:36:28,799
Open Society and its enemies, Popper basically says, you know,

2472
02:36:29,040 --> 02:36:34,639
if we followed this open society policy to its final conclusion,

2473
02:36:35,520 --> 02:36:39,280
then it's not only conceivable, I'm paraphrasing, by the way,

2474
02:36:39,319 --> 02:36:41,799
just for the audience at home, it's not only conceivable

2475
02:36:41,879 --> 02:36:45,799
but highly likely that you would have mass scale a

2476
02:36:45,799 --> 02:36:50,879
demographic replacement. You know that it would so rupture the

2477
02:36:51,600 --> 02:36:56,440
health and stability and coherency of an area, but the

2478
02:36:56,520 --> 02:36:59,680
open society is still better, so we have to do it.

2479
02:36:59,799 --> 02:37:05,159
So these are two guys who basically laid out a

2480
02:37:05,280 --> 02:37:11,120
sort of series of justifications for liberal democracy. They also

2481
02:37:11,600 --> 02:37:15,840
issued a series of polemics against people who are skeptical

2482
02:37:15,840 --> 02:37:20,040
of liberal democracy, and they also kind of spilled the

2483
02:37:20,079 --> 02:37:25,600
beans on what's wrong with their preferred political program. So

2484
02:37:25,799 --> 02:37:29,280
it's very difficult for me to find a better example

2485
02:37:29,840 --> 02:37:32,440
of the kind of thing I'm trying to communicate to

2486
02:37:32,479 --> 02:37:41,079
the audience, which is all of these kinds of things racialism, conspiracism,

2487
02:37:41,680 --> 02:37:48,479
anti liberalism are inexorably tied to one another. And it's

2488
02:37:48,479 --> 02:37:54,920
not for arbitrary reasons. It's for like first principles political theory.

2489
02:37:55,000 --> 02:37:58,639
And also just like I was gonna say, urban planning,

2490
02:37:58,639 --> 02:38:02,559
not urban planning, but like like basically like state craft and.

2491
02:38:02,639 --> 02:38:05,319
Speaker 1: And and social engineer, social engineer.

2492
02:38:05,120 --> 02:38:08,520
Speaker 2: Social engineering, right, yeah, yeah, like your demographic construction things

2493
02:38:08,559 --> 02:38:14,520
like that. Social engineering is more succinct. So I started

2494
02:38:14,559 --> 02:38:18,079
with them, and the more I read them and the

2495
02:38:18,120 --> 02:38:20,280
more I do this kind of writing, I just feel

2496
02:38:21,959 --> 02:38:25,319
like vindicated in that decision because they just keep proving

2497
02:38:25,360 --> 02:38:26,959
to be relevant over and over again.

2498
02:38:28,799 --> 02:38:33,920
Speaker 1: Before we move on to the next next one, the

2499
02:38:35,520 --> 02:38:42,440
term conspiracy. Theorist Carl Popper wrote, use that term, and

2500
02:38:42,479 --> 02:38:46,239
I believe it was nineteen fifty seven. And then there's

2501
02:38:46,559 --> 02:38:51,680
this it's been revealed that the CIA was using that,

2502
02:38:52,200 --> 02:38:54,600
like had said, Oh, that's the term we need to

2503
02:38:54,760 --> 02:38:58,719
use against against people who are talking about the JFK.

2504
02:38:59,040 --> 02:39:02,000
Is that is that right? Or is it uh? Or

2505
02:39:02,040 --> 02:39:03,479
should we be looking at Popper for that?

2506
02:39:04,719 --> 02:39:08,319
Speaker 2: I you know, I've heard that. I've heard that basically

2507
02:39:08,399 --> 02:39:12,120
all of my life. I've never independently researched that. I've

2508
02:39:12,159 --> 02:39:15,079
kind of taken it at face value because I've heard

2509
02:39:15,200 --> 02:39:19,760
other and I've seen other, you know, well regarded researchers

2510
02:39:20,239 --> 02:39:27,520
make that claim. Before I would say, I would say

2511
02:39:27,559 --> 02:39:31,079
this that there there's more than one road to critiquing

2512
02:39:31,799 --> 02:39:35,799
liberal democracy. And I do think it comes down to

2513
02:39:36,760 --> 02:39:41,200
sort of your specialization. I think people who are more

2514
02:39:41,200 --> 02:39:45,680
into who are more like wonks and more into political

2515
02:39:45,680 --> 02:39:51,799
culture and more into the nitty gritty of institutions and

2516
02:39:51,799 --> 02:39:57,280
and and the ways they sort of like octopus tentacles

2517
02:39:57,319 --> 02:40:00,239
get involved. Have there have their their tentacles in every

2518
02:40:00,239 --> 02:40:05,520
other pot because obviously the CIA has a long, a

2519
02:40:05,559 --> 02:40:09,159
long history of social engineering. I'm actually just now reading

2520
02:40:09,159 --> 02:40:12,399
this great book Who Paid the Piper, which is basically

2521
02:40:12,399 --> 02:40:15,559
it's by H. Francis Stoner Saunders, and is talking about

2522
02:40:15,559 --> 02:40:18,799
the CIA during the Cold War and they're anti Communist

2523
02:40:18,840 --> 02:40:21,959
initiatives and how people like James Burnham were, you know,

2524
02:40:22,520 --> 02:40:26,399
in effect, you know, whether explicitly or implicitly, doing Cold

2525
02:40:26,440 --> 02:40:32,360
War culture war stuff on behalf of America against the Communists.

2526
02:40:33,079 --> 02:40:36,959
Speaker 1: I've kind of always known that it was kind of

2527
02:40:36,959 --> 02:40:39,120
obvious if you work at if you were working at

2528
02:40:39,120 --> 02:40:42,200
a National Review when he worked there, you were you

2529
02:40:42,200 --> 02:40:44,040
were tied to the CIA in some way.

2530
02:40:44,559 --> 02:40:47,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, so well, naively, I actually didn't know that. I

2531
02:40:47,959 --> 02:40:50,079
was very late to the James Burnham train. Everyone was

2532
02:40:50,079 --> 02:40:52,479
reading him during COVID and earlier, and I picked him

2533
02:40:52,520 --> 02:40:54,360
up like two years ago, and my head was, my

2534
02:40:54,479 --> 02:40:56,239
hat was blown off my head. I was like, wow,

2535
02:40:56,280 --> 02:40:58,079
this is great. And then and then like a week

2536
02:40:58,159 --> 02:40:59,959
later someone was like, yeah, but Burnham was the spoon

2537
02:41:00,079 --> 02:41:02,600
Come like wait, what so yeah.

2538
02:41:02,440 --> 02:41:05,120
Speaker 1: But that doesn't But but the thing the thing about

2539
02:41:05,159 --> 02:41:08,559
it is that doesn't bother me because you know, when

2540
02:41:08,559 --> 02:41:10,280
I think about the first two books that he wrote.

2541
02:41:10,280 --> 02:41:14,079
When he wrote The Managerial Revolution, he wrote Machiavellians, I

2542
02:41:14,879 --> 02:41:16,879
can't be one in two percent. Sure he was spooked

2543
02:41:16,920 --> 02:41:20,799
up at that point. He was, you know, possibly, but

2544
02:41:21,879 --> 02:41:24,520
still it doesn't mean that he was writing those books

2545
02:41:24,600 --> 02:41:32,760
for any other any other intention then, because he that's

2546
02:41:32,799 --> 02:41:34,360
that's the book he wanted to write at the time.

2547
02:41:34,920 --> 02:41:39,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, in particular, The Managerial Revolution seems like a relatively

2548
02:41:39,760 --> 02:41:45,000
non ideological kind of academic work. But anyway, I think

2549
02:41:45,040 --> 02:41:48,079
there's probably multiple roads you can take. And for people

2550
02:41:48,079 --> 02:41:50,200
who are you know, as they say on the internet,

2551
02:41:50,280 --> 02:41:55,600
like theory cells, who are into the philosophical tradition, I

2552
02:41:55,840 --> 02:41:59,079
don't think, you know, focusing on Carl Popper versus focusing

2553
02:41:59,159 --> 02:42:03,159
on the CIA, that there's any obstacle or that there's

2554
02:42:03,200 --> 02:42:06,319
any hurdles, or that they're not congruent with one another.

2555
02:42:07,120 --> 02:42:08,920
This just happens to be the road that I took,

2556
02:42:10,200 --> 02:42:12,760
and so I think there's legitimacy to both. I mean,

2557
02:42:12,799 --> 02:42:24,760
obviously the CIA is involved in political assassinations regime change coups,

2558
02:42:25,360 --> 02:42:30,000
so we're if anything, I think what is worth extracting

2559
02:42:30,000 --> 02:42:33,639
out of this is sort of the if you want

2560
02:42:33,639 --> 02:42:43,120
to say, multidisciplinary or multi factorial, multi personnel engine behind

2561
02:42:43,319 --> 02:42:47,200
liberal democracy. That you can come at it from the

2562
02:42:47,239 --> 02:42:49,319
popular culture space, you can come at it from the

2563
02:42:49,319 --> 02:42:52,000
academic space, you can come at it from the intelligence

2564
02:42:52,239 --> 02:42:55,319
services space, and basically it all leads you to the

2565
02:42:55,360 --> 02:43:01,760
same thing that you've got political conflict, right, valry, subterfuge,

2566
02:43:02,079 --> 02:43:04,680
All the kinds of things that people like Carl Popper

2567
02:43:04,719 --> 02:43:07,760
told you don't actually have them and are not really

2568
02:43:07,799 --> 02:43:14,719
relevant in understanding political anything related to politics.

2569
02:43:16,040 --> 02:43:19,680
Speaker 1: Let's jump forward to Jonathan Heyde. You talk about his

2570
02:43:19,719 --> 02:43:22,680
book The Righteous Mind. That's one of those Height is

2571
02:43:22,719 --> 02:43:25,000
one of those people that really gets pushed by a

2572
02:43:25,040 --> 02:43:28,479
lot of the people who call themselves classical liberals, the

2573
02:43:28,479 --> 02:43:30,959
people who want to return to the nineties, the golden

2574
02:43:31,000 --> 02:43:34,120
age of the nineties. But you know, one of the

2575
02:43:34,120 --> 02:43:40,280
things that you point out is that they're his ideas

2576
02:43:41,879 --> 02:43:49,799
about psychological about how he misrepresents political differences between people

2577
02:43:49,879 --> 02:43:53,360
who have I think the terminology you use was broader

2578
02:43:53,440 --> 02:43:57,760
moral palette or what he used is broader moral palette

2579
02:43:57,760 --> 02:44:03,200
and liberals six and tuitions versus versus liberals have three.

2580
02:44:04,120 --> 02:44:06,600
So can you talk a little bit about how Height

2581
02:44:06,760 --> 02:44:12,719
continues this how he explains how this continues and moves

2582
02:44:12,760 --> 02:44:15,959
forward from you know, from World War Two and the

2583
02:44:15,959 --> 02:44:17,200
post war consensus.

2584
02:44:17,719 --> 02:44:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think a friend of yours, astral Flight,

2585
02:44:21,799 --> 02:44:25,239
made this really great observation to me. I didn't even

2586
02:44:25,280 --> 02:44:28,719
realize it that Jonathan Height was kind of like like

2587
02:44:28,760 --> 02:44:32,760
the Jordan Peterson. Before there was a Jordan Peterson. Five

2588
02:44:32,879 --> 02:44:36,600
or six years before Jordan Peterson got into political commentary

2589
02:44:36,639 --> 02:44:39,760
and political culture, you had Jonathan Hight as this sort

2590
02:44:39,799 --> 02:44:44,120
of centrist. And I say none of this with invective

2591
02:44:44,280 --> 02:44:46,879
or hatred. I actually think pretty of all of the

2592
02:44:46,879 --> 02:44:50,719
people who've done the I d W centrist, we just

2593
02:44:50,760 --> 02:44:52,920
need to get along thing. I really do look at

2594
02:44:53,000 --> 02:44:56,600
Jonathan Height as being like the most honest and really

2595
02:44:56,600 --> 02:44:59,600
the most competent person to try that out. But I

2596
02:44:59,600 --> 02:45:02,000
would just say, like, it's really remarkable if you want

2597
02:45:02,040 --> 02:45:05,159
to compare the public intellectuals of say today or the

2598
02:45:05,200 --> 02:45:11,040
last ten years compared to twenty thirty, forty, fifty, sixty

2599
02:45:11,120 --> 02:45:15,879
years ago, it's really startling. The issue I had with

2600
02:45:15,959 --> 02:45:19,719
Jonathan Hite was that his and this is really the

2601
02:45:19,719 --> 02:45:22,920
same issue with Jordan Peterson, even though it doesn't seem

2602
02:45:22,959 --> 02:45:28,399
that way with Peterson is they're actually very narrow minded.

2603
02:45:31,239 --> 02:45:35,959
I hesitate to say uneducated, but they are ignorant really

2604
02:45:36,120 --> 02:45:40,520
of other disciplines beyond their own. Jordan Peterson, if you

2605
02:45:40,520 --> 02:45:42,600
want to know about psychology, probably is one of the

2606
02:45:42,600 --> 02:45:45,799
best living educators of psychology. But when and this has

2607
02:45:45,840 --> 02:45:50,799
always been a parent when it comes to philosophy, history,

2608
02:45:51,079 --> 02:45:58,440
political theory, he's basically indistinguishable from like your grandpa sitting

2609
02:45:58,520 --> 02:46:01,440
at the actually your grandpa at the Thanksgiving dinner probably

2610
02:46:01,440 --> 02:46:04,479
knows more than Jordan Peerson. But same thing with Jonathan Hyde.

2611
02:46:04,639 --> 02:46:09,600
Very good, very astute as a sociologist, as a anthropologically

2612
02:46:09,639 --> 02:46:13,239
minded person, obviously as a PhD of social psychology, But

2613
02:46:13,360 --> 02:46:17,840
the big glaring hole in his theory of the moral

2614
02:46:17,840 --> 02:46:23,879
foundations as applied to the political binary is actually politically ignorant.

2615
02:46:24,120 --> 02:46:28,799
So the John so the Heights moral foundations theory says

2616
02:46:29,159 --> 02:46:42,319
that there are six elementary moral foundations or intuitions care, fairness, liberty, sanctity, authority,

2617
02:46:44,559 --> 02:46:46,760
there's a sixth one that I'm actually blanking on at

2618
02:46:46,760 --> 02:46:53,000
the moment. And his research demonstrated that conservatives were more

2619
02:46:53,040 --> 02:46:57,639
in touch with all six than liberals were. And he

2620
02:46:58,200 --> 02:47:02,680
gives the example of the John Kerry campaign back in

2621
02:47:02,680 --> 02:47:05,840
two thousand and four and the rhetoric that was on

2622
02:47:05,959 --> 02:47:10,399
the campaign trail, and he basically said that Democrats were

2623
02:47:10,639 --> 02:47:20,879
unable to access rhetoric that touched on moral intuitions like authority, sanctity, purity,

2624
02:47:21,040 --> 02:47:23,319
purity would have been the sixth one, right, that these

2625
02:47:23,360 --> 02:47:29,280
are kind of like classically conservative moral intuitions. They have

2626
02:47:29,360 --> 02:47:32,440
to do with They're they're inexorably bound up with like

2627
02:47:33,000 --> 02:47:37,959
the church and religion. They're inexorably bound up with the military,

2628
02:47:38,840 --> 02:47:43,000
hierarchy and the state. They are inexorably bilt bound up

2629
02:47:43,040 --> 02:47:47,559
with the family and a paternal sort of view of

2630
02:47:47,600 --> 02:47:50,600
the world. And so Height says, well, this is really

2631
02:47:50,639 --> 02:47:54,399
a big problem. Democrats are losing these elections, they're losing

2632
02:47:54,479 --> 02:47:57,920
the culture war, They're not really able to communicate to

2633
02:47:58,639 --> 02:48:03,360
all Americans. So he embarked on this research project to

2634
02:48:03,479 --> 02:48:08,280
develop a way to help liberals expand their moral palate.

2635
02:48:08,440 --> 02:48:12,360
There's a couple of problems with that. First, and what

2636
02:48:12,399 --> 02:48:15,159
I think the biggest problem is is that his research

2637
02:48:15,239 --> 02:48:20,879
actually demonstrates that liberals can access other moral intuitions. It's

2638
02:48:20,959 --> 02:48:25,040
just that when they apply those moral intuitions, they're applied differently.

2639
02:48:25,319 --> 02:48:36,040
When a conservative Bible thumping rust belter practices sanctity, they're

2640
02:48:36,040 --> 02:48:39,200
thinking about Christ, they're thinking about God, they're thinking about

2641
02:48:39,239 --> 02:48:42,479
the Church. They're thinking about the Beatitudes, the Ten Commandments,

2642
02:48:42,840 --> 02:48:49,120
they're pastor. But this is according to Height. When secular

2643
02:48:49,239 --> 02:48:55,079
humanist types think in terms of sanctity, well, they think

2644
02:48:55,079 --> 02:48:58,799
about the environment, They think about pollution and climate change,

2645
02:48:58,840 --> 02:49:04,760
they think about sort of these very novel, untraditional, outside

2646
02:49:04,799 --> 02:49:07,559
of the box ways of applying these basic moral intuitions.

2647
02:49:09,239 --> 02:49:11,559
You know, what was the old liberal maxim, you know,

2648
02:49:12,479 --> 02:49:16,559
think globally, act locally. That kind of describes the problems

2649
02:49:16,559 --> 02:49:19,360
are the way liberals think is in this fundamentally non

2650
02:49:19,440 --> 02:49:25,280
parochial way. So that tells us one that liberals don't

2651
02:49:25,360 --> 02:49:29,920
have a problem accessing these moral intuitions, it's just they

2652
02:49:29,959 --> 02:49:33,280
apply them differently. So to me, the first problem that

2653
02:49:33,319 --> 02:49:36,799
arises out of that is it tells us something about

2654
02:49:37,440 --> 02:49:41,159
the populations themselves and the kinds of social worlds that

2655
02:49:41,159 --> 02:49:45,399
they occupy. I extrapolate from that that we really have

2656
02:49:45,760 --> 02:49:51,559
two completely different populations living side by side as though

2657
02:49:51,920 --> 02:49:55,040
they were actually one people. You know, when we are

2658
02:49:55,319 --> 02:49:58,200
we here in the whatever you want to say, the

2659
02:49:58,280 --> 02:50:02,040
Trump right, the online right, student right, radical right right, whatever,

2660
02:50:02,079 --> 02:50:03,879
I mean, A lot of us, if not most of us,

2661
02:50:03,920 --> 02:50:09,840
are here because we have certain foundational concerns about our kin,

2662
02:50:10,000 --> 02:50:14,760
about the folk, about the race, about homogeneity and a

2663
02:50:14,799 --> 02:50:20,719
coherent national identity. This sort of issue in Heights. Theorizing

2664
02:50:20,920 --> 02:50:24,280
betrays the fact that we don't have a coherent national identity,

2665
02:50:24,680 --> 02:50:27,760
and that homogeneity is not just an issue in terms

2666
02:50:27,760 --> 02:50:34,159
of racial characteristics or religious affiliation, but actually there are

2667
02:50:34,319 --> 02:50:38,000
other ways in which people are or aren't alike, and

2668
02:50:38,040 --> 02:50:40,920
that's meaningful in terms of how you organize your polity.

2669
02:50:41,120 --> 02:50:45,079
So basically the punchline of that essay is there's two

2670
02:50:45,719 --> 02:50:49,079
different political economies. This goes back to James Burnham. There

2671
02:50:49,079 --> 02:50:55,000
are two different political economies operating in this country, and

2672
02:50:55,040 --> 02:50:59,120
while they're not necessarily opposed to one another, they are

2673
02:50:59,159 --> 02:51:05,760
in conflict. You have the classical liberal political economy bourgeois

2674
02:51:05,959 --> 02:51:12,040
entrepreneurial capitalism, which, even though that was critical in displacing

2675
02:51:13,120 --> 02:51:17,360
the old aristocratic order and the monarchy and things we

2676
02:51:17,399 --> 02:51:21,479
think of as even more based and conservative and hierarchical

2677
02:51:21,520 --> 02:51:24,239
and all these kinds of things, but relative to like

2678
02:51:24,360 --> 02:51:27,920
modernity where we are now. You know, that's pretty, it's pretty.

2679
02:51:29,399 --> 02:51:33,159
They were still deeply devout religious people. They were still

2680
02:51:33,159 --> 02:51:39,840
deeply patriarchal. These were not people who who comparable today anyway,

2681
02:51:40,079 --> 02:51:42,760
who thought like we will literally burn through all of

2682
02:51:42,760 --> 02:51:45,479
our social capital if it will earn more money or

2683
02:51:45,520 --> 02:51:51,159
help us achieve some kind of kakamamie political agenda. You

2684
02:51:51,239 --> 02:51:55,120
had this bourgeois entrepreneurial liberalism, and then what comes after that,

2685
02:51:55,239 --> 02:52:00,680
as James Burnham said, is managerialism. Managerialism, the tech technocracy,

2686
02:52:00,920 --> 02:52:06,799
the cult of expertise, credentialism, socialism, you know, the welfare state,

2687
02:52:07,520 --> 02:52:12,479
all of these things which are built on bourgeois entrepreneurialism

2688
02:52:12,840 --> 02:52:18,280
but also in a way sort of parasitize bourgeois capitalism.

2689
02:52:18,479 --> 02:52:20,200
That's kind of like one of the stories of the

2690
02:52:20,239 --> 02:52:24,639
recent Trump victory with Vance as his VP, is like

2691
02:52:24,959 --> 02:52:28,479
we're trying to put the managerial revolution back in the

2692
02:52:28,520 --> 02:52:32,479
box a little bit here. Burnham says that, you know,

2693
02:52:32,559 --> 02:52:38,000
managerialism emerged because actually San Francis says this, expanding on

2694
02:52:38,520 --> 02:52:43,559
James Burnham, that nation states were growing so rapidly both

2695
02:52:43,639 --> 02:52:47,680
demographically in terms of like their geographical territories, and so

2696
02:52:47,719 --> 02:52:50,319
you had this dual problem of mass and scale. They're

2697
02:52:50,319 --> 02:52:53,440
getting larger, they're also getting more complicated. So if you're

2698
02:52:53,600 --> 02:52:55,479
a you know, if you're like an early twentieth century

2699
02:52:55,559 --> 02:52:59,399
robber baron, a capitalist, well you while it might have

2700
02:52:59,440 --> 02:53:03,000
been possible for you in eighteen fifty or nineteen hundred

2701
02:53:03,079 --> 02:53:08,000
or even nineteen fifty to literally micromanage everything and understand

2702
02:53:08,719 --> 02:53:11,280
A good example of this is maybe Walt Disney trying

2703
02:53:11,319 --> 02:53:16,000
to put together Snow White. He was intimately involved in

2704
02:53:16,200 --> 02:53:19,879
every aspect of that production down to the finest detail.

2705
02:53:20,840 --> 02:53:22,760
And then if you look at what Disney's doing today,

2706
02:53:22,959 --> 02:53:26,639
like the people who bankroll it have no control what's happening,

2707
02:53:27,200 --> 02:53:30,159
no idea, what's even happening in terms of casting and

2708
02:53:30,239 --> 02:53:35,479
like CGI and whatever. So things were getting so large

2709
02:53:35,719 --> 02:53:39,680
and kind of complicated that you had a new class

2710
02:53:39,719 --> 02:53:43,680
of people emerge, and these were the managers, technically minded,

2711
02:53:43,920 --> 02:53:48,639
technically skilled people usually with a college education, usually living

2712
02:53:48,680 --> 02:53:53,440
in an urban or suburban setting, who are not capitalists

2713
02:53:53,479 --> 02:53:57,319
in the sense that they have large reserves of money

2714
02:53:57,319 --> 02:54:01,159
that they can allocate and spend and whatever captains of industry,

2715
02:54:02,040 --> 02:54:07,399
but they have very narrowly defined highly skilled roles that

2716
02:54:07,479 --> 02:54:09,920
put them. I think the quote from San Francis is

2717
02:54:10,479 --> 02:54:14,559
they literally put their hands on the levers of of

2718
02:54:14,600 --> 02:54:17,440
these industries. So as San Francis said, you know, the

2719
02:54:17,600 --> 02:54:22,000
change in the kind of people who became in charge

2720
02:54:22,040 --> 02:54:25,280
of things also became rather, he says, the change in

2721
02:54:25,319 --> 02:54:28,200
the class of people also became a change in the

2722
02:54:28,319 --> 02:54:31,799
kind of people. So we went from capitalists to managers.

2723
02:54:32,120 --> 02:54:35,959
But also we're dealing with a different demographic of people.

2724
02:54:36,840 --> 02:54:39,799
You know, a lot of you know, Ellis Islanders, you know,

2725
02:54:40,000 --> 02:54:43,719
are getting into these positions, a lot of newer immigrant

2726
02:54:43,760 --> 02:54:48,040
Americans are getting into these positions. To your audience, I'm

2727
02:54:48,040 --> 02:54:50,520
bringing this to a conclusion here. If it seems like

2728
02:54:50,520 --> 02:54:53,760
a crazy digression, we could say, in a sort of

2729
02:54:53,840 --> 02:55:02,600
loose way that the liberal democratic, you know, liberal progressive liberals, democrats, socialists,

2730
02:55:02,600 --> 02:55:06,879
these kinds of people, you know, in terms of heights,

2731
02:55:06,920 --> 02:55:12,399
moral foundation, the threes versus the sixes, these are people

2732
02:55:12,520 --> 02:55:16,440
who basically live in a completely different economy than the

2733
02:55:16,479 --> 02:55:20,120
conservative person. The conservative person even today still lives in

2734
02:55:20,159 --> 02:55:24,760
a farm, works on a farm, or runs their own business,

2735
02:55:24,879 --> 02:55:27,959
or comes from a family that does that. You know,

2736
02:55:28,000 --> 02:55:30,079
they tend you know statistically, we know this. You know,

2737
02:55:30,120 --> 02:55:32,760
they tend not to go to college, they tend not

2738
02:55:32,879 --> 02:55:35,719
to complete their degrees, they tend not to read as much.

2739
02:55:36,280 --> 02:55:41,719
The divide what Jonathan Hite treats as psychological differences between

2740
02:55:41,920 --> 02:55:46,200
liberals and conservatives really is a demographic difference. It's an

2741
02:55:46,239 --> 02:55:51,360
economical difference. So it's not that liberals are out of

2742
02:55:51,479 --> 02:55:56,719
touch with the authority moral intuition or the sanctity moral intuition.

2743
02:55:57,399 --> 02:56:02,239
It's that they are basically into a completely different style

2744
02:56:02,280 --> 02:56:05,799
of life, and so they apply these moral intuitions to

2745
02:56:05,920 --> 02:56:09,239
the world in wildly different ways. They even apply the

2746
02:56:09,360 --> 02:56:14,799
same moral intuitions differently. Jonathan Hype points out that for conservatives,

2747
02:56:15,000 --> 02:56:19,280
fairness has more to do with like proportionality, for example,

2748
02:56:19,680 --> 02:56:23,600
compared to liberals, where it's about like distributing to everyone.

2749
02:56:24,040 --> 02:56:26,840
Now everyone gets a piece of the pie. But conservatives say,

2750
02:56:26,840 --> 02:56:29,159
well that doesn't sound fair, Like why does the guy

2751
02:56:29,159 --> 02:56:31,680
who does nothing have as much, say as I do?

2752
02:56:31,920 --> 02:56:35,559
Hence the proportionality right, Okay, well there's an opportunity. This

2753
02:56:35,600 --> 02:56:37,959
goes into like one of the old debates like equity

2754
02:56:38,040 --> 02:56:40,559
versus equality? Are we trying to give everyone an opportunity?

2755
02:56:40,760 --> 02:56:43,079
Or are we trying to give everyone an outcome? Like

2756
02:56:43,120 --> 02:56:47,879
these are mentality differences that arise out of different economic

2757
02:56:48,879 --> 02:56:52,799
social organizations. So I know, I just throw a whole

2758
02:56:52,840 --> 02:56:54,360
bunch atch you. Maybe I'll take a pause there and

2759
02:56:54,440 --> 02:56:55,639
let you pick apart from that.

2760
02:56:57,719 --> 02:57:00,680
Speaker 1: Uh No, I mean I think that that it's uh,

2761
02:57:01,479 --> 02:57:04,399
it's something that's been covered on this on the show

2762
02:57:04,520 --> 02:57:10,639
endlessly managerialism versus a role by experts or you know,

2763
02:57:10,760 --> 02:57:15,200
role by asarc So, uh, the next thing I wanted

2764
02:57:15,200 --> 02:57:19,680
to move on to was just touch on this, you know,

2765
02:57:19,799 --> 02:57:22,280
as quick as quick as we can, because I really

2766
02:57:22,319 --> 02:57:25,079
want to talk about a Louis a little bit and

2767
02:57:25,159 --> 02:57:31,200
get into a liule and condoment the the idea that

2768
02:57:31,840 --> 02:57:36,280
unconscious group dynamics and not individual brainwashing drive shifts and

2769
02:57:36,440 --> 02:57:42,680
culture and how the American myth of individualism, you know,

2770
02:57:42,799 --> 02:57:46,360
as a noble as a noble lie, obscures how social

2771
02:57:46,399 --> 02:57:49,440
forces shape behavior. Talk a little bit about that.

2772
02:57:50,000 --> 02:57:56,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I came. I came into contact with the

2773
02:57:56,600 --> 02:58:00,280
work of a German, very well celebrated germansy colug Just

2774
02:58:00,319 --> 02:58:02,920
his name is Gerd. I'm probably butchering it. He has

2775
02:58:02,959 --> 02:58:05,159
a name like straight out of German folklore, and he

2776
02:58:05,239 --> 02:58:08,920
looks like like, you know, like the most German Man

2777
02:58:08,959 --> 02:58:12,399
on earth, a gird gigorinzer or gigerenz or. I have

2778
02:58:12,440 --> 02:58:13,440
no idea how you would say it.

2779
02:58:13,840 --> 02:58:17,120
Speaker 1: Oh, I have no clue. I look, no no idea.

2780
02:58:18,159 --> 02:58:23,520
Speaker 2: He's a psychologist and well a little bit of context.

2781
02:58:23,680 --> 02:58:25,799
One thing that's really interesting to me about the last

2782
02:58:25,840 --> 02:58:30,479
twenty years of psychology publishing, popular publishing, academic publishing is

2783
02:58:30,520 --> 02:58:33,319
that since the turn of the century there has been

2784
02:58:33,360 --> 02:58:42,319
an extreme focus on irrationality, on what's sometimes called choice architecture,

2785
02:58:42,680 --> 02:58:48,719
a decision making basically cognition, but in terms of our

2786
02:58:48,840 --> 02:58:54,399
capacity to choose. What are the actual cognitive mechanisms that

2787
02:58:54,479 --> 02:58:57,159
are responsible for a decision making process, When do they

2788
02:58:57,159 --> 02:58:59,799
go right, when do they go wrong? What are their limitations?

2789
02:59:00,399 --> 02:59:03,680
This stretches all the way back to the really the

2790
02:59:03,760 --> 02:59:06,680
early twentieth century. I want to say, Herbert Spencer. Maybe

2791
02:59:07,559 --> 02:59:09,879
I could be mixing up some of my names, but

2792
02:59:10,360 --> 02:59:13,000
in the early to midish nineteen sixties you had what

2793
02:59:13,120 --> 02:59:17,959
was called the probabilistic revolution in the social sciences. What

2794
02:59:18,079 --> 02:59:23,920
basically refers to statisticians gained a lot of influence in

2795
02:59:24,280 --> 02:59:29,559
academic psychological research. And so there became this quantitive intent,

2796
02:59:29,840 --> 02:59:35,959
heavy focus on quantitative sort of mathematical reasoning to understand

2797
02:59:36,000 --> 02:59:40,120
and explain social behavior. And one of the people that

2798
02:59:40,200 --> 02:59:43,920
was at the start of that was Daniel Koneman. Now

2799
02:59:44,000 --> 02:59:46,159
let's just table that now, just to give some context

2800
02:59:46,159 --> 02:59:49,319
for the audience. So Gert Gigorenzer is working sort of

2801
02:59:49,360 --> 02:59:52,520
in this milieu, but he's coming at it from a

2802
02:59:52,520 --> 02:59:56,360
different point of view. One of the actually he's kind

2803
02:59:56,399 --> 03:00:00,520
of like hearkening back to the very earliest the theorists

2804
03:00:00,719 --> 03:00:07,840
theoreticians in this statistical revolution. He's basically saying that there's

2805
03:00:09,079 --> 03:00:12,719
and this this is contrasting to the Daniel Connomans of

2806
03:00:12,719 --> 03:00:16,559
the world, basically saying that there's a type of logic

2807
03:00:16,840 --> 03:00:21,200
that humans engage in that you could say is intrinsic

2808
03:00:21,280 --> 03:00:26,440
to our decision making process. It's not arbitrary, it's actually evolutionary.

2809
03:00:28,000 --> 03:00:33,280
And it's not only evolutionary, it's environmentally bound. Right, So

2810
03:00:33,319 --> 03:00:37,239
in other words, thinking of human cognition, we need to

2811
03:00:37,239 --> 03:00:40,360
think of it as something that developed within a context.

2812
03:00:41,440 --> 03:00:43,559
We need to think of it as something that developed

2813
03:00:44,239 --> 03:00:52,440
according to certain evolutionary pressures and limitations selection pressures, for example.

2814
03:00:53,360 --> 03:00:56,479
So he and again, I won't spill all the beans.

2815
03:00:56,559 --> 03:00:58,399
I'll leave some for your you know, your audience, if

2816
03:00:58,440 --> 03:01:00,120
they want to read it. I hope you do. Get

2817
03:01:00,159 --> 03:01:03,920
up an Anaal up Hill Publishing. He basically says that

2818
03:01:07,280 --> 03:01:11,040
there are three rules of human social organization, more or less,

2819
03:01:12,280 --> 03:01:17,040
and and there's actually no getting around them. There's no

2820
03:01:17,200 --> 03:01:20,680
you can't break them, you can't refine them. They are

2821
03:01:21,079 --> 03:01:27,120
fine tuned over countless generations of evolution. So when I

2822
03:01:27,159 --> 03:01:31,799
read that, my first thought was, and you know, it's

2823
03:01:31,879 --> 03:01:34,879
getting involved in all this radical politics stuff. I'm kind

2824
03:01:34,920 --> 03:01:37,840
of a neophyte still. I've only since like twenty fourteen,

2825
03:01:37,920 --> 03:01:41,200
twenty fifteen really been thinking this way. And one of

2826
03:01:41,239 --> 03:01:43,239
the like the kind one of the thoughts that are

2827
03:01:43,559 --> 03:01:46,479
or just like repeating questions I've always had, is actually

2828
03:01:46,479 --> 03:01:48,920
the subtitle of the essay that you referenced, you know,

2829
03:01:49,000 --> 03:01:51,920
how did things get this bad? You know, we're always

2830
03:01:52,000 --> 03:01:54,879
constantly asking ourselves, like why are people like this? How

2831
03:01:54,879 --> 03:01:57,120
do things get this way? Would you know or we

2832
03:01:57,159 --> 03:02:00,360
play the historical revision game? You know, would think be

2833
03:02:00,399 --> 03:02:03,600
different if you know Group X won this war as

2834
03:02:03,600 --> 03:02:06,200
opposed to group why, or you know, if this president

2835
03:02:06,239 --> 03:02:09,319
won this election or this, and we're we're always asking

2836
03:02:09,319 --> 03:02:11,799
ourselves like, why are people like this? How did things

2837
03:02:11,840 --> 03:02:13,920
get this way? The point of my essay is to

2838
03:02:13,959 --> 03:02:19,840
say that there's a profoundly evolutionary reason for people to

2839
03:02:20,000 --> 03:02:27,879
become conformist, because conformism is effectively an evolutionary mechanism, or

2840
03:02:27,920 --> 03:02:29,959
at least for us, it's this sort of thing we've

2841
03:02:29,959 --> 03:02:39,000
accumulated that helps us to deal with ambiguity, uncertainty, catastrophe, risk, danger.

2842
03:02:39,639 --> 03:02:42,879
You can't know everything, it's impossible to know everything, it's

2843
03:02:42,920 --> 03:02:46,559
impossible to account for everything. And really all we can

2844
03:02:46,639 --> 03:02:49,799
do is just, you know, look to the person to

2845
03:02:49,879 --> 03:02:52,479
our left and right and do what they're doing. And

2846
03:02:52,840 --> 03:02:55,719
this is like deeply encoded into us. And so it's

2847
03:02:55,799 --> 03:02:59,200
very common for people to think like, well, it's it's

2848
03:02:59,239 --> 03:03:02,600
what the universe did. It was brainwashing through media, it

2849
03:03:02,680 --> 03:03:06,639
was brainwashing through Hollywood, it was brainwashing through the universities

2850
03:03:06,680 --> 03:03:09,280
and the academics. And I'm not saying that that's wrong.

2851
03:03:09,399 --> 03:03:11,600
I'm not saying that that didn't play a role. What

2852
03:03:11,639 --> 03:03:15,120
I'm saying is that before you ever read fucuou in

2853
03:03:15,239 --> 03:03:18,559
freshman year of college, before you ever turned on the

2854
03:03:18,639 --> 03:03:23,319
TV and saw some subliminal, licentious thing getting beamed into

2855
03:03:23,319 --> 03:03:28,280
your brain. You were conforming to the social dynamics in

2856
03:03:28,319 --> 03:03:32,479
your home, at the park, in the classroom, at the

2857
03:03:32,559 --> 03:03:36,520
lunch table. And these are the things we need to

2858
03:03:36,520 --> 03:03:40,319
think about in terms of why and how people adopt

2859
03:03:40,559 --> 03:03:44,200
certain political beliefs. And the real point of that I

2860
03:03:44,239 --> 03:03:50,879
was trying to drive home in that essay. Maybe I'm

2861
03:03:50,959 --> 03:03:52,799
kind of a bleeding heart here. You tell me if

2862
03:03:52,840 --> 03:03:56,239
you agree or disagree. The point I was trying to

2863
03:03:56,319 --> 03:03:58,920
drive home is that we want to have actually empathy

2864
03:03:59,559 --> 03:04:02,440
because like a libtard moment, we want to actually have

2865
03:04:02,479 --> 03:04:06,120
a sort of like patience and compassion for people, because

2866
03:04:06,120 --> 03:04:09,239
it's very common for us who are sort of like

2867
03:04:09,319 --> 03:04:12,520
initiated and know a little bit about this, to get

2868
03:04:12,559 --> 03:04:16,760
angry and bitter and like man, like you should know better,

2869
03:04:16,920 --> 03:04:20,040
or you got duped, or you were brainwashed by the

2870
03:04:20,440 --> 03:04:24,079
by the race communists or the woke mind virus. Actually,

2871
03:04:24,120 --> 03:04:28,120
most people have no idea consciously in an intellectual way

2872
03:04:28,319 --> 03:04:32,719
about what's happening around them. They're just simply imitating what

2873
03:04:32,799 --> 03:04:37,000
the people around them are doing. They are simply using

2874
03:04:37,040 --> 03:04:40,079
the same solutions that have worked for the people around

2875
03:04:40,079 --> 03:04:44,360
them in a sort of unthinking, unconscious way, because it's

2876
03:04:44,399 --> 03:04:50,120
actually too mentally taxing, cognitively demanding, and socially punishing, ostracizing

2877
03:04:50,639 --> 03:04:53,319
to get into the weeds on every one of these

2878
03:04:53,319 --> 03:04:57,280
individual issues, whether we're talking about LGBT or we're thinking

2879
03:04:57,319 --> 03:05:02,799
about tariffs or the immigration policy or whatever. Most people

2880
03:05:03,479 --> 03:05:07,559
don't think there is no actual rational, cognitive, sort of

2881
03:05:07,600 --> 03:05:12,520
deliberative process going on. It's just simply people going along

2882
03:05:12,600 --> 03:05:15,520
and getting along. And when I read his book in

2883
03:05:15,559 --> 03:05:17,680
the Wild, actually I bought a bunch of his books

2884
03:05:17,719 --> 03:05:19,959
and read a bunch of his papers around that time

2885
03:05:20,079 --> 03:05:22,600
when I was writing this, it gave me a profound

2886
03:05:23,399 --> 03:05:26,680
Actually it felt like I was being like liberated, liberated

2887
03:05:26,719 --> 03:05:30,200
by like this sort of anger at other people, like

2888
03:05:30,559 --> 03:05:33,879
why aren't you taking up this challenge like I'm taking

2889
03:05:33,959 --> 03:05:38,120
it up. Why aren't you trying to decode all of

2890
03:05:37,559 --> 03:05:42,000
the bullshit? And why aren't you willing to ostracize yourself

2891
03:05:42,040 --> 03:05:43,879
from your friends and your family in the name of

2892
03:05:43,920 --> 03:05:47,280
the truth. Because that's not actually what the kinds of

2893
03:05:47,360 --> 03:05:51,440
foundational social dynamics we've evolved to function with. That's not

2894
03:05:51,520 --> 03:05:53,719
how they operate. Which isn't to say that they're like

2895
03:05:53,799 --> 03:05:56,920
deviant or pathological. It just means that you know, people

2896
03:05:56,920 --> 03:05:59,479
like you and me are like a different breed of

2897
03:05:59,520 --> 03:06:03,399
person basically. And if we're getting in front of an audience,

2898
03:06:04,440 --> 03:06:06,520
whether it's you and your podcast or me and my

2899
03:06:06,600 --> 03:06:09,719
blog or whatever, or somebody at like a rally or

2900
03:06:09,719 --> 03:06:12,760
a pub, you actually have to have like some heart

2901
03:06:12,959 --> 03:06:15,120
for the people in front of you, the people who

2902
03:06:15,159 --> 03:06:18,360
are gathered around you, because they don't actually know better.

2903
03:06:18,600 --> 03:06:20,680
And most of the time people treat that as a

2904
03:06:20,760 --> 03:06:23,879
sort of insult or a smear, or they say in

2905
03:06:23,920 --> 03:06:27,280
a pejorative and condescending way in the same way that

2906
03:06:27,440 --> 03:06:29,479
I don't know any better when it comes to physics

2907
03:06:29,719 --> 03:06:34,159
or mechanical engineering. Doesn't make me like a loser or

2908
03:06:34,200 --> 03:06:37,120
a conservative or a dueb or whatever. It just means

2909
03:06:37,639 --> 03:06:41,360
I don't have that specialization. I would need to rely

2910
03:06:41,600 --> 03:06:44,920
on a well meaning expert. I think, to the point

2911
03:06:44,920 --> 03:06:48,559
of that essay, people believe and act the way they

2912
03:06:48,600 --> 03:06:54,120
do far less for deliberative, conscious reasons than they do

2913
03:06:54,520 --> 03:07:01,559
for invisible social dynamics that mind and tether people together.

2914
03:07:01,680 --> 03:07:05,360
That was another really long winded answer, So I apologize.

2915
03:07:06,000 --> 03:07:08,639
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a pedant but I think

2916
03:07:08,719 --> 03:07:12,959
when using the term empathy, we have to be able

2917
03:07:13,040 --> 03:07:18,840
to separate what's known as effective empathy and cognitive empathy.

2918
03:07:20,399 --> 03:07:24,479
Cognitive empathy is the ability to see another person's perspective.

2919
03:07:25,760 --> 03:07:28,840
Effective empathy is the more dangerous one, and I think

2920
03:07:28,879 --> 03:07:33,680
it's what's taken over a large amount of the left

2921
03:07:33,959 --> 03:07:39,680
and progressivism, which is being able to understand one's another

2922
03:07:39,760 --> 03:07:45,760
person's emotions, but also sharing them with them, trying to

2923
03:07:45,799 --> 03:07:49,280
share their experience. I don't have any interest in that.

2924
03:07:50,600 --> 03:07:57,079
Understanding is a much different thing than actually seeking to

2925
03:07:58,520 --> 03:08:03,079
seeking to put myself and to try to feel exactly

2926
03:08:03,120 --> 03:08:07,120
what they're feeling. I think that leads that leads us

2927
03:08:07,159 --> 03:08:16,520
down the path of the where you that what's become

2928
03:08:16,559 --> 03:08:20,120
the meme of how you know, most people who would

2929
03:08:20,120 --> 03:08:23,479
be right wing care about the people most around them,

2930
03:08:23,600 --> 03:08:27,319
and then out here it's the people, yeah, the heat map,

2931
03:08:27,799 --> 03:08:31,440
and I think the we have to be careful of that.

2932
03:08:32,479 --> 03:08:37,920
Understanding where people are coming from is one thing real

2933
03:08:38,520 --> 03:08:43,120
that that section of empathy which has become the most popular,

2934
03:08:43,559 --> 03:08:46,639
where you're trying where they want you to share and

2935
03:08:46,719 --> 03:08:49,360
feel what other people are feeling. I have no interest

2936
03:08:49,399 --> 03:08:50,719
in that. I have enough I have enough of my

2937
03:08:50,760 --> 03:08:51,440
own problems.

2938
03:08:51,920 --> 03:08:55,959
Speaker 2: Yeah. I give three examples in that essay, and they

2939
03:08:56,000 --> 03:08:59,000
all are examples of cognitive empathy. So I'm glad you

2940
03:08:59,000 --> 03:09:01,799
made that distinction. I mean affective empathy. That's the sort

2941
03:09:01,840 --> 03:09:06,600
of Again, I don't say this in a really negative way,

2942
03:09:06,639 --> 03:09:09,360
but it's kind of how we've ended up in this squishy,

2943
03:09:10,639 --> 03:09:15,200
womanly school marm kind of mentality where it's like, well,

2944
03:09:15,200 --> 03:09:17,639
how do you feel if that happened to you, Well,

2945
03:09:17,680 --> 03:09:21,520
I would feel bad, So then don't judge them so harshly.

2946
03:09:21,559 --> 03:09:25,159
It's like, that's not constructive. But one of the examples

2947
03:09:25,159 --> 03:09:33,239
I give, if I can remember, one of Gigrinser's one

2948
03:09:33,239 --> 03:09:36,959
of his three rules is basically the default rule that

2949
03:09:37,040 --> 03:09:42,159
if there's no other solution, then you do what everyone

2950
03:09:42,159 --> 03:09:47,559
else has done previously. And I give the example of somebody,

2951
03:09:47,920 --> 03:09:52,440
a young man who enlists in the US military in

2952
03:09:52,479 --> 03:09:55,120
two thousand and two or two thousand and three, and

2953
03:09:55,159 --> 03:09:58,280
they did that for rule one, do what other people

2954
03:09:58,280 --> 03:10:00,520
around you do. And so if you're a young man

2955
03:10:00,559 --> 03:10:02,520
and you're watching TV and all of the men in

2956
03:10:02,559 --> 03:10:06,000
your family are like, this is fucking a travesty. We

2957
03:10:06,040 --> 03:10:07,920
need to go to war, we need to defend America.

2958
03:10:07,959 --> 03:10:10,040
You think, yes, it's a travesty. I need to go

2959
03:10:10,079 --> 03:10:13,319
to war. I need to defend America. Maybe maybe ten

2960
03:10:13,360 --> 03:10:15,920
other guys from your high school classroom did that, and

2961
03:10:15,920 --> 03:10:19,360
you're like, I'm gonna do that. And then you go

2962
03:10:19,639 --> 03:10:22,600
and it's awful and you come back and you're a

2963
03:10:22,639 --> 03:10:27,360
fucking mess and you look around at your other peers,

2964
03:10:28,680 --> 03:10:32,520
other guys who you enlisted with, and they're developing drug

2965
03:10:32,559 --> 03:10:34,719
problems or they kill themselves, and what do you do?

2966
03:10:35,559 --> 03:10:40,520
You develop a drug problem and you kill yourself, and

2967
03:10:41,120 --> 03:10:42,920
like that's the default. This is like a very sort

2968
03:10:42,920 --> 03:10:46,239
of like bleak way of applying it, but it gave

2969
03:10:46,360 --> 03:10:49,879
me a greater understanding. It's like, how does that happen?

2970
03:10:50,200 --> 03:10:52,799
Does it happen because we didn't give them enough education?

2971
03:10:53,319 --> 03:10:57,000
Did it happen because they didn't have enough socialization time?

2972
03:10:57,120 --> 03:11:00,040
Did it happen because like all of these were not

2973
03:11:00,120 --> 03:11:04,239
trying to understand the real problem types of explanations. It's like, no,

2974
03:11:04,360 --> 03:11:07,239
he did it for like the three basic rules of

2975
03:11:07,280 --> 03:11:11,000
social organization. You do what everyone else does. If there's

2976
03:11:11,040 --> 03:11:14,000
no other solution, you do the solution that everyone else

2977
03:11:14,319 --> 03:11:17,479
has been using. And if you're a young guy who

2978
03:11:17,600 --> 03:11:20,959
enlisted in the military. Well, you see a lot of

2979
03:11:21,319 --> 03:11:25,000
your peers falling apart completely and maybe killing themselves. Or

2980
03:11:25,959 --> 03:11:31,799
another example I use is like a freshman aged college girl.

2981
03:11:32,280 --> 03:11:35,040
You know, how do they all fall into or how

2982
03:11:35,079 --> 03:11:39,239
does so many of them fall into this like destructive, licentious,

2983
03:11:39,399 --> 03:11:44,760
borderline pornographic sexual behavior because they looked around what the

2984
03:11:44,760 --> 03:11:48,319
people around them were doing, and they defaulted back to

2985
03:11:48,479 --> 03:11:51,520
the same type of social behavior that most of the

2986
03:11:51,520 --> 03:11:54,159
people around them were engaging it. And I think if

2987
03:11:54,200 --> 03:11:58,159
you can understand the degree to which just about everybody

2988
03:11:58,200 --> 03:12:02,040
you know is engage aged in some kind of like mimesis,

2989
03:12:02,719 --> 03:12:07,639
then it really does de emphasize the extent to which

2990
03:12:07,680 --> 03:12:15,600
you think of them as a competent, individually, rationally minded person. Now,

2991
03:12:15,600 --> 03:12:19,840
they may also be those things, but we are most

2992
03:12:19,879 --> 03:12:22,639
of the time we are that in a very limited capacity.

2993
03:12:23,600 --> 03:12:27,719
You go to the hospital, your physician is giving you

2994
03:12:27,760 --> 03:12:30,440
all these scans and using all of this large, you know,

2995
03:12:32,680 --> 03:12:36,959
fifty thousand dollars words, and they're flexing their upper learning

2996
03:12:37,000 --> 03:12:39,280
degrees at you, and you're like, Wow, this guy's really smart.

2997
03:12:40,360 --> 03:12:42,600
And then they turn around and then they watch Bill

2998
03:12:42,639 --> 03:12:48,000
Maher and what then they vote for Kamala Harris or whatever.

2999
03:12:48,000 --> 03:12:50,520
You're like, Wait, I thought you were like a thinking person.

3000
03:12:51,040 --> 03:12:58,479
You realize actually this that type of demanding, deliberative cognitive function.

3001
03:12:59,319 --> 03:13:00,959
You know, if there was a big pie chart, how

3002
03:13:01,040 --> 03:13:03,719
much of your life you're you know, you're actually engaged

3003
03:13:03,719 --> 03:13:05,680
in that. It's a tiny sliver of the pie. Most

3004
03:13:05,719 --> 03:13:07,920
of the rest of it is. I mean, why did

3005
03:13:07,959 --> 03:13:10,000
that guy end up in medical school in the first place.

3006
03:13:10,280 --> 03:13:12,120
Because he looked to his left and his right and

3007
03:13:12,159 --> 03:13:15,399
that's what the people around him were doing. Or because

3008
03:13:15,399 --> 03:13:18,239
someone from on high their their father, their mother, their

3009
03:13:18,239 --> 03:13:20,559
grandfather said you're going to do this, and so they

3010
03:13:20,559 --> 03:13:28,120
did it. It wasn't a deliberative, individualistic process of rational choice.

3011
03:13:28,200 --> 03:13:35,360
It was unconscious, evolutionarily informed social process. So all that

3012
03:13:35,440 --> 03:13:38,399
to say, I agree with you. We have to be

3013
03:13:38,440 --> 03:13:42,079
careful about the E word, and my essay does skew

3014
03:13:42,280 --> 03:13:45,280
on the cognitive empathy and not the affective empathy. So

3015
03:13:45,280 --> 03:13:46,440
I appreciate you bringing that up.

3016
03:13:47,719 --> 03:13:50,799
Speaker 1: No problem. Let's move on to Connoman because you've already

3017
03:13:51,000 --> 03:13:56,200
mentioned him. Daniel Conneman. He basically portrays human cognition as

3018
03:13:56,239 --> 03:14:01,680
inherently flawed. How does that? How does that bolster a

3019
03:14:01,719 --> 03:14:06,239
move towards technocracy and yeah, I mean you mentioned a

3020
03:14:06,319 --> 03:14:09,559
little too, so I mean whichever direction you want to

3021
03:14:09,559 --> 03:14:09,879
take that.

3022
03:14:10,639 --> 03:14:14,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cooman, I remember when I remember both when the

3023
03:14:14,840 --> 03:14:17,600
Jonathan Hype book and then Daniel Connoman book came out.

3024
03:14:18,280 --> 03:14:20,159
They came out within a few years of each other,

3025
03:14:20,639 --> 03:14:23,760
and they were some of the biggest I mean, the

3026
03:14:23,840 --> 03:14:26,399
podcast circuit of ten to fifteen years ago was like

3027
03:14:26,440 --> 03:14:33,200
those two guys, like every talk show, every podcast. And

3028
03:14:33,239 --> 03:14:38,079
it's actually really really difficult to overstate how influential Daniel

3029
03:14:38,120 --> 03:14:44,520
Khnoman has been on social science research but also the

3030
03:14:44,559 --> 03:14:51,040
general intellectual culture. So Daniel Conoman's Israeli psychologist who was

3031
03:14:51,120 --> 03:14:53,360
in the idea. If he died, like last year, I

3032
03:14:53,399 --> 03:14:59,280
think killed himself, it's probably interesting. It's probably not totally

3033
03:14:59,319 --> 03:15:05,959
meaningless to out that he signed himself up for like

3034
03:15:06,000 --> 03:15:09,040
one of these you know, end of life self terminating things.

3035
03:15:09,879 --> 03:15:11,319
I don't know exactly. I don't know if you went

3036
03:15:11,360 --> 03:15:15,840
to Denmark or wherever in those countries they have. So

3037
03:15:16,879 --> 03:15:20,239
his partner, Amos Tversky. I'm probably butchering these names because

3038
03:15:20,239 --> 03:15:24,319
I'm not Israeli. They had been research partners since the

3039
03:15:24,319 --> 03:15:27,719
fifties of the sixties they were part of. They actually

3040
03:15:27,760 --> 03:15:32,079
originated what's called the Heuristics and Biases research program. So

3041
03:15:32,159 --> 03:15:34,399
to your listening audience, you know, if you ever took

3042
03:15:34,399 --> 03:15:38,079
a psych instruction to psychology class at any point when

3043
03:15:38,120 --> 03:15:41,280
you were in college, there was probably a section on

3044
03:15:41,399 --> 03:15:44,760
cognitive psychology, and a lot of it probably had to

3045
03:15:44,799 --> 03:15:49,239
do with this idea of heuristics and biases. And basically

3046
03:15:49,280 --> 03:15:53,399
the Heuristics and Biases program says that human and this

3047
03:15:54,559 --> 03:15:57,959
ger Gigorinzer accepts this, by the way, he just sort

3048
03:15:58,000 --> 03:16:02,440
of takes a different conclusion from the same general idea.

3049
03:16:02,920 --> 03:16:09,120
Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky, Uh, we're basically perpetuating this

3050
03:16:09,280 --> 03:16:13,200
line of research. They were both you know, mathematically minded,

3051
03:16:13,559 --> 03:16:18,399
statistical thinkers, so they both perpetuated through their research and

3052
03:16:18,440 --> 03:16:23,239
their public advocacy, their intellectual work, the idea that human

3053
03:16:23,280 --> 03:16:29,559
cognition is sort of a it's based on it like

3054
03:16:29,600 --> 03:16:33,280
maybe a handful of mechanisms or principles, if you want

3055
03:16:33,319 --> 03:16:40,520
to say, and we don't necessarily have an immediate ability

3056
03:16:41,120 --> 03:16:47,079
to activate those mechanisms or principles. They kind of seem

3057
03:16:47,159 --> 03:16:49,879
to have a life of their own. Uh, and they

3058
03:16:49,920 --> 03:16:54,360
work in the background, and somehow magically we draw inferences

3059
03:16:54,399 --> 03:16:58,959
and conclusions and and and and answers to things. You know,

3060
03:16:59,120 --> 03:17:01,120
Like when I as a kid growing up, my dad

3061
03:17:01,159 --> 03:17:04,120
would always say to me, you know, like, you know,

3062
03:17:04,120 --> 03:17:05,959
if you've ever got a problem you don't know the

3063
03:17:06,000 --> 03:17:08,399
answer to, you know, stop thinking about it for a while,

3064
03:17:08,440 --> 03:17:11,399
and a couple of hours later, you know, poof, it'll

3065
03:17:11,440 --> 03:17:13,799
hit you. And I was like, well, that's kind of crazy,

3066
03:17:13,959 --> 03:17:16,079
and that would happen. Maybe you go to sleep and

3067
03:17:16,120 --> 03:17:18,120
the answer comes to you in a dream, or you're

3068
03:17:18,120 --> 03:17:20,319
trying to remember the name of some actor and it

3069
03:17:20,399 --> 03:17:23,399
hits you a week later. It's like, what happened in

3070
03:17:23,399 --> 03:17:26,799
my brain that I went from really forcedly trying to

3071
03:17:26,799 --> 03:17:30,319
think about this to not and then suddenly the answer comes. Well,

3072
03:17:30,360 --> 03:17:35,200
this is the basic idea of deliberative executive cognition. There

3073
03:17:35,239 --> 03:17:40,079
are a handful of mechanisms and principles that operate somewhere

3074
03:17:40,280 --> 03:17:44,280
kind of nebulously in the mind or within human consciousness

3075
03:17:44,760 --> 03:17:51,040
that help us to think and make choices and make calculations.

3076
03:17:51,440 --> 03:17:55,520
There's a sort of a rudimentary brain calculator in there

3077
03:17:55,600 --> 03:17:59,159
that is running all these these programs and calculations, and

3078
03:17:59,200 --> 03:18:02,239
we don't really get to ever put our hands directly

3079
03:18:02,280 --> 03:18:05,879
on it. But that's how the brain works now, Caiman,

3080
03:18:06,000 --> 03:18:08,520
and I'm basically, by the way, for your audience's benefit,

3081
03:18:08,799 --> 03:18:12,399
I'm giving like a very stripped away version of that story.

3082
03:18:13,319 --> 03:18:15,159
But the important thing to take away from it is

3083
03:18:15,159 --> 03:18:21,120
that Caniman and Versky basically argued that this is an

3084
03:18:21,239 --> 03:18:30,159
inexorably flawed evolutionary process that leads us to basically make

3085
03:18:30,559 --> 03:18:34,479
a lot of errors, that human cognition is barely better

3086
03:18:34,479 --> 03:18:39,079
than a coin flip, and so their academic work was

3087
03:18:39,120 --> 03:18:44,559
about helping experts become better decision makers by providing them

3088
03:18:44,600 --> 03:18:50,639
with all of this statistically informed psychological research, which, by

3089
03:18:50,680 --> 03:18:53,719
the way, is also what Gigorenzer did. But the difference

3090
03:18:53,760 --> 03:18:58,959
between Caniman and Tversky versus gigaenzers Gigorenzer's idea was that

3091
03:19:00,360 --> 03:19:04,120
these heuristics and he didn't use the word biases, he

3092
03:19:04,280 --> 03:19:09,399
just talked about them in terms of heuristics, are like

3093
03:19:09,479 --> 03:19:11,879
it doesn't get better than that. Like, if you're telling

3094
03:19:11,920 --> 03:19:16,639
me that evolution over millennia formed our brain to work

3095
03:19:16,680 --> 03:19:18,559
in this way, then it probably did it really well

3096
03:19:18,639 --> 03:19:21,399
because just about everything else about us works really really well,

3097
03:19:22,479 --> 03:19:25,520
but you have to understand the context that the mind

3098
03:19:25,719 --> 03:19:29,200
is developing it. You have to understand the context the

3099
03:19:29,440 --> 03:19:32,840
kinds of choices we have been forced to make throughout

3100
03:19:32,920 --> 03:19:36,440
human history to understand how the brain arrives at those conclusions.

3101
03:19:36,479 --> 03:19:39,440
And obviously we're living in this sort of like fairy

3102
03:19:39,440 --> 03:19:48,120
tale Disneyland world that's completely removed from like primary evolutionary

3103
03:19:48,200 --> 03:19:53,399
selection pressures, and can you know, Gigorenzer's argument is, basically,

3104
03:19:54,000 --> 03:19:59,920
we've got this finely tuned cognitive organ that now has

3105
03:20:00,200 --> 03:20:07,680
to deal with a wildly unpredictable, unstable, information rich environment,

3106
03:20:08,239 --> 03:20:12,559
which is a you know, historically a unique circumstance that

3107
03:20:12,639 --> 03:20:15,680
we've really never there's a very little precedent for it

3108
03:20:15,799 --> 03:20:18,440
in the past. And so when humans make mistakes, it's

3109
03:20:18,479 --> 03:20:23,399
because we are We have evolved in these niches, these

3110
03:20:23,440 --> 03:20:29,120
tightly bound ecological niches, to produce certain types of solutions

3111
03:20:29,360 --> 03:20:33,200
and to think about information in a particular way. We

3112
03:20:33,239 --> 03:20:34,879
don't live in that world if you want to think,

3113
03:20:34,920 --> 03:20:36,239
if you want to zoom out and say, you know,

3114
03:20:36,440 --> 03:20:39,799
the world of scarcity versus the world of abundance. Right

3115
03:20:39,879 --> 03:20:42,639
in the world of scarcity, there's limited resources there's also

3116
03:20:42,719 --> 03:20:46,200
limited information, there's limited choices to me. But in a

3117
03:20:46,239 --> 03:20:48,879
world of abundance, such as as the one that we

3118
03:20:48,959 --> 03:20:51,200
live in, to the extent that you could say it's

3119
03:20:51,200 --> 03:20:55,200
a world of abundance, well, you see things like, well,

3120
03:20:55,200 --> 03:20:57,440
there's a great study that got published some years ago.

3121
03:20:59,520 --> 03:21:04,479
I'll ask you, actually, there's a magical number after which,

3122
03:21:05,200 --> 03:21:08,159
once presented with this number a number of options, humans

3123
03:21:08,200 --> 03:21:12,319
actually are not able to make a meaningful choice. Do

3124
03:21:12,360 --> 03:21:13,280
you know what that number is?

3125
03:21:14,799 --> 03:21:15,680
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't.

3126
03:21:16,159 --> 03:21:18,920
Speaker 2: I think it's about a dozen, okay, between six and

3127
03:21:18,959 --> 03:21:20,559
twelve six.

3128
03:21:20,719 --> 03:21:21,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

3129
03:21:22,079 --> 03:21:27,159
Speaker 2: So, like you go trying to buy a car, you

3130
03:21:27,239 --> 03:21:31,200
see like three dozen cars on the lot. It's like, well, meaningfully,

3131
03:21:31,920 --> 03:21:34,479
how do I know which is the right car for me?

3132
03:21:34,719 --> 03:21:37,159
Or you go shopping for clothing like me, and you

3133
03:21:37,200 --> 03:21:40,120
go down the mail the aisle and you see like

3134
03:21:40,719 --> 03:21:44,159
thirty gazillion racks of genes and you're like, I just

3135
03:21:44,159 --> 03:21:45,799
need a fucking pair of pants. Man, Like, I don't

3136
03:21:45,840 --> 03:21:48,559
even know what I'm looking at. You know, this abundant,

3137
03:21:48,600 --> 03:21:54,920
information rich environment is not something we're really evolutionarily adapted to.

3138
03:21:55,799 --> 03:21:59,239
For gigaenz are, that's not a fundamental problem with human

3139
03:21:59,360 --> 03:22:03,520
cognition for Kaniman it is and so Canaman. The thing

3140
03:22:03,520 --> 03:22:07,760
that's even more interesting about Caneman about not just his

3141
03:22:08,239 --> 03:22:12,280
academic research program, but also his affiliations. If you read

3142
03:22:12,280 --> 03:22:14,280
his book Thinking Fast and Slow, which you won a

3143
03:22:14,280 --> 03:22:18,159
Nobel Prize for Nobel Prize and Behavioral Economy, he's talking

3144
03:22:18,159 --> 03:22:22,639
about his good friend cast SUNS team. My gread friend

3145
03:22:22,680 --> 03:22:25,120
cast SUNS team whose judgment I trust so well. Who

3146
03:22:25,159 --> 03:22:26,040
at the same time that.

3147
03:22:26,920 --> 03:22:30,479
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean Condoman like was literally born in

3148
03:22:30,600 --> 03:22:35,360
mandatory Palestine in like the thirties. Yes, it went to Paris.

3149
03:22:35,440 --> 03:22:39,760
His parents escaped Paris because you know, the evil Nazis

3150
03:22:39,799 --> 03:22:43,520
came to power, they moved back to Palestine, like right

3151
03:22:43,559 --> 03:22:49,920
before before it became Israel. I mean this is you

3152
03:22:49,959 --> 03:22:53,680
want to talk about having your child, like having your life,

3153
03:22:53,920 --> 03:22:57,319
your life's attitude set up for you right from the start.

3154
03:22:58,360 --> 03:23:04,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very charm life. So you know, there's

3155
03:23:04,879 --> 03:23:06,639
so much to say about kind of and it's actually

3156
03:23:06,639 --> 03:23:08,360
the one essay I'm the most proud of because it

3157
03:23:08,399 --> 03:23:10,120
really gets to a lot of things that have bothered

3158
03:23:10,159 --> 03:23:12,040
me over the course of my life. I'll just say this,

3159
03:23:13,000 --> 03:23:16,200
you know, all throughout Countiman's kind of portraying himself as

3160
03:23:16,280 --> 03:23:20,159
on the side of like Joshmo, you know, here's all

3161
03:23:20,200 --> 03:23:22,680
this research showing that you're kind of a dummy, but

3162
03:23:22,719 --> 03:23:25,120
don't worry. You know, you're my dummy, and I'm going

3163
03:23:25,200 --> 03:23:27,440
to make sure nothing Dad happens to you. So he

3164
03:23:27,479 --> 03:23:31,120
has this sort of libertarian ethic about him where he

3165
03:23:31,120 --> 03:23:34,879
talks about the need for sort of paternalism because people

3166
03:23:34,959 --> 03:23:37,520
are so dumb and can't think straight and can't make

3167
03:23:37,559 --> 03:23:40,799
decisions for themselves. That means that they are at they

3168
03:23:40,799 --> 03:23:45,520
are easy prey for other people who would want, you know, demagogues,

3169
03:23:45,520 --> 03:23:48,639
people who'd want to manipulate them, what have you. And

3170
03:23:48,719 --> 03:23:51,280
he treats he views his research as basically a way

3171
03:23:51,319 --> 03:23:55,120
to help Joshmo navigate this world of complexity that he's

3172
03:23:55,159 --> 03:23:59,200
just too much of a dumb gentile group to navigate

3173
03:23:59,239 --> 03:24:02,239
on his own. And he keeps talking about it's just

3174
03:24:02,280 --> 03:24:04,000
really funny the way he keeps talking about people like

3175
03:24:04,440 --> 03:24:08,280
Cass Sunstein. You know, my good friend Cass Sunstein with

3176
03:24:08,319 --> 03:24:11,200
his tremendous work. Meanwhile, at the same time Canman's writing

3177
03:24:11,239 --> 03:24:14,200
that book, Cass Sunstein is writing his a series of

3178
03:24:14,200 --> 03:24:18,920
white papers with people like Adrian Vermule on conspiracy theories,

3179
03:24:19,040 --> 03:24:24,280
on cognitive infiltration, on like the og misinformation, like his

3180
03:24:24,360 --> 03:24:28,600
whole idea of cognitive infiltration, Cass Sunstein. That is was literally,

3181
03:24:28,719 --> 03:24:31,879
we're going to go into spaces where people are generating

3182
03:24:32,000 --> 03:24:35,920
novel explanations for political and social crises, and we're going

3183
03:24:36,000 --> 03:24:40,520
to fuck it up by deliberately throwing in pants on

3184
03:24:40,840 --> 03:24:46,760
on you know, ahead retarded counter conspiracy theories. So it's

3185
03:24:46,799 --> 03:24:49,239
a really really dangerous situation. I'll put it. I'll put

3186
03:24:49,239 --> 03:24:51,000
a bone it real quick, just like you.

3187
03:24:51,040 --> 03:24:56,760
Speaker 1: Just describe right wing Twitter or what I mean.

3188
03:24:57,799 --> 03:25:00,760
Speaker 2: That was one of his big bugaboos was the Internet.

3189
03:25:00,760 --> 03:25:03,920
It's basically, you know, his essay on conspiracy theories was

3190
03:25:04,000 --> 03:25:08,719
directly about nine to eleven and the Israel conspiracies. We're

3191
03:25:08,760 --> 03:25:11,200
in this unit two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine,

3192
03:25:11,760 --> 03:25:15,040
so not like at the birth of the Internet or

3193
03:25:15,079 --> 03:25:19,040
even the birth of like, you know, AOL, within ten

3194
03:25:19,120 --> 03:25:22,239
years of it, and he's basically saying, it's a really

3195
03:25:22,239 --> 03:25:25,040
big problem that all of he doesn't say this, but

3196
03:25:25,239 --> 03:25:28,760
I'm editorializing a little bit. Cass Snstein is basically saying

3197
03:25:28,799 --> 03:25:32,079
to people, it's a problem that these dumb, gentile rubs

3198
03:25:32,479 --> 03:25:35,600
are looking at Israel the wrong way, and we need

3199
03:25:35,639 --> 03:25:39,159
to figure out a solution to discourage them from doing that.

3200
03:25:39,200 --> 03:25:41,520
And if we can't discourage them, we have to make

3201
03:25:41,559 --> 03:25:48,879
the information economy so contaminated and unreliable that no social

3202
03:25:48,879 --> 03:25:52,760
transformation can come as a result of that. And so

3203
03:25:52,799 --> 03:25:55,639
that's the reason I wrote about Knoman is because the

3204
03:25:56,159 --> 03:26:01,600
basic conclusion of his research is that humans need a

3205
03:26:01,680 --> 03:26:06,559
class of credentialed technological experts to do the thinking for them.

3206
03:26:07,399 --> 03:26:13,959
And you mentioned elul Eluill, famous French sociologist, probably published

3207
03:26:13,959 --> 03:26:15,360
like one hundred books. He might be one of the

3208
03:26:15,840 --> 03:26:18,000
one of the most prolific writers of all time. He's

3209
03:26:18,040 --> 03:26:21,840
a Christian, he was an anarchist, and he was French.

3210
03:26:22,680 --> 03:26:27,840
That was the worst part about him. He basically argued

3211
03:26:28,239 --> 03:26:31,600
all the way back in the nineteen sixties that there's

3212
03:26:31,639 --> 03:26:38,000
this encroaching metaphysical problem in human society is called technique.

3213
03:26:39,799 --> 03:26:42,600
This is very actually very complicated his definition of technique.

3214
03:26:42,639 --> 03:26:45,200
So I won't really get into it here on the

3215
03:26:45,200 --> 03:26:48,280
show with you. I give a lot of time in

3216
03:26:48,319 --> 03:26:50,680
the essay explaining it in a lot of different perspectives.

3217
03:26:50,719 --> 03:26:53,440
So it's definitely comprehensive in the book, but basically he

3218
03:26:53,479 --> 03:26:57,319
says that, you know, technique is this, to put it

3219
03:26:57,399 --> 03:27:05,479
very simply, is this sort of efficiency mechanism that throughout

3220
03:27:05,559 --> 03:27:10,159
different periods of human history was subordinated to some other

3221
03:27:10,760 --> 03:27:13,719
aspect of human social life. He says, you know, in

3222
03:27:13,879 --> 03:27:16,159
the Roman in the Greek and Roman times or the

3223
03:27:16,239 --> 03:27:22,680
Roman times, that technique was subordinated to state craft, and

3224
03:27:22,719 --> 03:27:28,239
that in the Medieval times that technique was subordinated to

3225
03:27:28,280 --> 03:27:31,079
the aims of the Church and sort of theological thinking.

3226
03:27:31,600 --> 03:27:34,559
That you know, what technique looked like in the Mid

3227
03:27:34,600 --> 03:27:41,479
Ages was you know, theologians debating sort of the minutia

3228
03:27:41,799 --> 03:27:46,879
of like Christian metaphysics. You know, how many angels can

3229
03:27:47,000 --> 03:27:50,440
dance on the head of a pin, that kind of thing.

3230
03:27:50,959 --> 03:27:54,399
But at some point in the last couple of hundred years,

3231
03:27:55,280 --> 03:28:02,479
technique has become unmoored from other social forces or other

3232
03:28:02,520 --> 03:28:06,799
social domains of human life. Technique is no longer just

3233
03:28:06,879 --> 03:28:09,399
something you do to build a better bridge, or to

3234
03:28:09,440 --> 03:28:14,040
build a better government, or to build a better cathedral,

3235
03:28:14,280 --> 03:28:16,799
or to build a better love for God. It's actually

3236
03:28:17,159 --> 03:28:23,000
its own good, its own end. That sort of like

3237
03:28:23,120 --> 03:28:27,200
colonizing every other social space, and if you look at

3238
03:28:27,239 --> 03:28:30,559
the world around you, it seems like every endeavor that

3239
03:28:30,639 --> 03:28:37,959
people are engaged in is kind of subordinated to this

3240
03:28:38,079 --> 03:28:45,200
idea of more efficiency, more productivity, more conformity. If people

3241
03:28:45,239 --> 03:28:48,479
complain about the algorithm online, it's kind of a way

3242
03:28:48,520 --> 03:28:51,040
of talking about the problem of technique. People want to

3243
03:28:51,079 --> 03:28:55,159
talk about the rapaciousness of capital, and even ilul gives

3244
03:28:55,360 --> 03:28:58,360
there's a whole section in the technological society where it

3245
03:28:58,399 --> 03:29:02,719
basically says like even in the early generations of sort

3246
03:29:02,760 --> 03:29:09,120
of like Thebarian, you know, wasp capitalism, that it was

3247
03:29:09,159 --> 03:29:13,520
still pretty much kind of confined to economic logic and

3248
03:29:13,920 --> 03:29:17,600
economic concerns, and at some point after that it became

3249
03:29:17,639 --> 03:29:23,000
its own thing. Daniel Kahneman, the people involved in this

3250
03:29:23,079 --> 03:29:29,440
heuristics and research program, contemporary technocrats are really people who

3251
03:29:29,760 --> 03:29:35,719
have become like the physical embodiment of this principle of technique,

3252
03:29:35,920 --> 03:29:40,639
where you know, we don't even care about a nation

3253
03:29:40,760 --> 03:29:44,639
state or a community. All of these things are inefficient,

3254
03:29:45,280 --> 03:29:53,399
you know, they they don't they don't grow or progress

3255
03:29:53,479 --> 03:29:55,600
on their own. There's something that Jacque Olleuwell says that

3256
03:29:55,680 --> 03:29:58,079
I consider to be a really profound thing. He says

3257
03:29:58,120 --> 03:30:04,239
people who are kind of hypnotized by the magic of technique.

3258
03:30:06,399 --> 03:30:13,440
If you talk to them and express trepidation, trepidation about

3259
03:30:14,000 --> 03:30:17,680
like the direction of technological progress, they will treat you

3260
03:30:17,959 --> 03:30:21,479
as an enemy of mankind. Like what you're not. You

3261
03:30:21,520 --> 03:30:24,280
don't want to go to Mars. You don't want to

3262
03:30:24,319 --> 03:30:29,079
replace your eyeballs with glass computers. You don't want to

3263
03:30:29,120 --> 03:30:31,959
be able to erase down syndrome from the from the

3264
03:30:32,040 --> 03:30:36,799
from the human uh, you know, DNA, like whatever thing

3265
03:30:36,879 --> 03:30:39,639
we can achieve through technological progress. If you are an

3266
03:30:39,719 --> 03:30:44,319
advocate of that, then your enemy are the Ludites and

3267
03:30:44,680 --> 03:30:47,440
you know, like the spiritually Amish people who have some

3268
03:30:47,600 --> 03:30:52,319
skepticism at the idea that we can just keep innovating

3269
03:30:52,440 --> 03:30:58,479
and progressing and making everything more technical. Just as an

3270
03:30:58,520 --> 03:31:01,159
idea or as in a example for your audience, Like

3271
03:31:02,319 --> 03:31:05,520
I love heavy metal, but I really don't like a

3272
03:31:05,520 --> 03:31:07,600
lot of heavy metal from the last twenty years, and

3273
03:31:07,639 --> 03:31:10,399
it's really taken me my whole life to figure out why.

3274
03:31:11,040 --> 03:31:16,040
If you compare Black Sabbath and Tony Iomi to I

3275
03:31:16,040 --> 03:31:19,079
don't know, the one of the guitar players from Lamb

3276
03:31:19,159 --> 03:31:24,079
of God or Trivium or some death metal band, like literally,

3277
03:31:24,159 --> 03:31:29,040
Tony Iomi grew up in like bombed out Birmingham, like

3278
03:31:29,319 --> 03:31:33,840
around the factories, and the sound of heavy metal was

3279
03:31:34,200 --> 03:31:39,559
the sound of industrial, technological society. But Tony Iomi never

3280
03:31:39,799 --> 03:31:44,319
like he still used that sound to write melodies and

3281
03:31:44,879 --> 03:31:47,920
things that sort of resonate with the human spirit and

3282
03:31:47,959 --> 03:31:50,840
our ears and are pleasing to hear. But you listen

3283
03:31:50,879 --> 03:31:54,479
to a band like My Sugar. I recently started listening

3284
03:31:54,479 --> 03:31:57,079
to My Sugar. That song bleed. The first time I

3285
03:31:57,079 --> 03:31:58,639
heard it, I was like, Wow, that sounds like an

3286
03:31:58,680 --> 03:32:02,600
airplane engine. That's such a crazy sound to make on guitar.

3287
03:32:02,799 --> 03:32:06,239
So I bought the whole album, and every single song

3288
03:32:06,440 --> 03:32:09,559
is like we're literally going to recreate the sound you know,

3289
03:32:09,760 --> 03:32:12,360
what the inside of your washing machine sounds like. And

3290
03:32:12,399 --> 03:32:16,639
it's like guitar and guitar music was, whereas in the

3291
03:32:16,680 --> 03:32:19,840
era of Black Sabbath, it's like we're sort of imitating

3292
03:32:21,120 --> 03:32:24,840
industrial society to produce music. It's like and now today

3293
03:32:24,879 --> 03:32:30,799
it's like we're sort of using music to recreate technological society.

3294
03:32:30,959 --> 03:32:34,719
It's less pleasing to listen to, it's more technically demanding.

3295
03:32:35,479 --> 03:32:38,360
The guys, you know, James Headfield has a much more

3296
03:32:38,760 --> 03:32:44,159
aggressive rhythmhand than Tony Iomi has had. But I mean,

3297
03:32:44,280 --> 03:32:47,280
is every Metallica riff as great as every Black Sabbath riff?

3298
03:32:47,319 --> 03:32:50,079
And then you know, twenty thirty years later, is who's

3299
03:32:50,120 --> 03:32:53,079
ever headlining oz Fest? Now? Are they really better than

3300
03:32:53,120 --> 03:32:57,600
Pantera was in nineteen ninety four? They may be better performers,

3301
03:32:58,120 --> 03:33:01,440
the music may be more on the hunting edge, let's say,

3302
03:33:01,600 --> 03:33:06,559
of a particular genre. But it's also like nobody buys

3303
03:33:06,559 --> 03:33:09,760
those records anymore. Nobody goes to those concerts. If you

3304
03:33:09,760 --> 03:33:11,239
want to see a Lamb of God, you've got to

3305
03:33:11,280 --> 03:33:13,799
see them like on a big festival tour with the

3306
03:33:13,799 --> 03:33:16,559
same seven or eight other bands that nobody will pay

3307
03:33:16,879 --> 03:33:19,879
to see on their own ticket. Anyway, the point I'm

3308
03:33:19,879 --> 03:33:25,399
making is that technique sucks and it ruins good things.

3309
03:33:27,120 --> 03:33:32,799
Speaker 1: Let's uh okay, So you have an addendum that I

3310
03:33:32,799 --> 03:33:34,760
I don't even want to touch it. I want people

3311
03:33:34,799 --> 03:33:37,120
to read that on their own because you know that's

3312
03:33:37,159 --> 03:33:40,200
where you know, if we start talking about that here,

3313
03:33:40,319 --> 03:33:48,879
we're going to be We'll start getting into maybe yeah,

3314
03:33:48,920 --> 03:33:53,840
having ton couch some language, especially talking about certain groups

3315
03:33:53,840 --> 03:33:57,200
and things like that. Let's finish up talking about this.

3316
03:33:57,440 --> 03:34:00,600
Let's talk about let me ask this question, if babies

3317
03:34:00,600 --> 03:34:04,239
are boring racist, what's that means? We're just racist? Right?

3318
03:34:04,559 --> 03:34:06,159
Let me talk about Paul Bloom.

3319
03:34:06,559 --> 03:34:12,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, let me tell you a short story. Back

3320
03:34:12,760 --> 03:34:18,120
when I was a university lecturer. Obviously I'm from New York.

3321
03:34:18,319 --> 03:34:21,879
I taught in New York very racially, you know, multiculturally

3322
03:34:21,959 --> 03:34:24,920
diverse in every sense of the word. So whether it

3323
03:34:25,079 --> 03:34:30,680
was Midtown Manhattan or South Brooklyn or the Bronx or

3324
03:34:32,280 --> 03:34:37,479
Nasau or Queens whatever, I had to teach the same material.

3325
03:34:38,399 --> 03:34:41,920
And one of the chapters was on human development, from

3326
03:34:41,959 --> 03:34:45,639
you know, infancy to Cradle of the Grave human psychology.

3327
03:34:46,680 --> 03:34:50,760
And at the time I was teaching, or around the

3328
03:34:50,760 --> 03:34:53,680
time I had finished graduate school, Paul Bloom had published

3329
03:34:53,680 --> 03:34:59,079
a series of studies that were, oh there were sixty

3330
03:34:59,120 --> 03:35:02,280
minutes segments on it. He got he wrote, you know,

3331
03:35:02,319 --> 03:35:06,479
New York Times bestselling books about it. Basically, he developed

3332
03:35:07,680 --> 03:35:12,280
a very unique set of research methodologies by which he

3333
03:35:12,360 --> 03:35:17,799
claimed you could get infants under twelve months old to

3334
03:35:17,879 --> 03:35:25,920
demonstrate complex social cognitive behavior, things that, according to the

3335
03:35:25,959 --> 03:35:30,840
psychological dogma of previous generations, really didn't show up until

3336
03:35:31,200 --> 03:35:36,840
like four five six seven years old. According to Paul Bloom,

3337
03:35:36,879 --> 03:35:41,760
it was present in babies as young as three months old. Basically,

3338
03:35:41,760 --> 03:35:46,520
what he would do is a kind of rudimentary friend

3339
03:35:46,760 --> 03:35:52,639
enemy distinction test, so they were so infants would and

3340
03:35:52,639 --> 03:35:54,959
there are multiple iterations of this. I won't get into

3341
03:35:55,000 --> 03:35:57,879
all the minutia of it, but one such example was

3342
03:35:59,200 --> 03:36:02,600
infants would base the watch sort of a play of

3343
03:36:02,639 --> 03:36:06,440
two dolls interacting with one another, or three dolls interacting

3344
03:36:06,479 --> 03:36:10,200
with one another, where you know, the two dolls are

3345
03:36:10,399 --> 03:36:13,680
maybe in conflict over something, and then a third doll

3346
03:36:13,799 --> 03:36:17,920
comes over and helps one. Maybe in a different iteration,

3347
03:36:18,239 --> 03:36:21,559
a third doll comes over and hurts another one. Basically,

3348
03:36:21,639 --> 03:36:27,600
the infants were They're measuring the responses of these infants

3349
03:36:27,639 --> 03:36:33,159
to either aggressive or cooperative social behavior between complete strangers.

3350
03:36:34,680 --> 03:36:37,799
So you know, generally, the outcome of the study was

3351
03:36:37,840 --> 03:36:41,639
that babies tend to like the helpers more than they

3352
03:36:42,120 --> 03:36:48,000
like the kind of anti social obstructive ones. They like

3353
03:36:48,200 --> 03:36:51,719
neutral people more than they liked hurtful people. They like

3354
03:36:52,239 --> 03:36:57,079
helpful people more than they like neutral people. And so

3355
03:36:57,120 --> 03:37:01,079
I would show the sixty minutes clip to students, and

3356
03:37:01,159 --> 03:37:04,280
invariably Paul Bloom would would try to scale up the

3357
03:37:04,319 --> 03:37:08,680
findings of this research. Okay, So Tier one is infants

3358
03:37:08,719 --> 03:37:12,879
have a preference for pro social behavior over anti social behavior. Okay,

3359
03:37:12,959 --> 03:37:15,719
So in Paul Bloom's world, that means there's a sort

3360
03:37:15,760 --> 03:37:20,760
of rudimentary faculty there pretty much from birth, where infants

3361
03:37:20,799 --> 03:37:24,719
can make a friend enemy distinction, And with each subsequent

3362
03:37:26,280 --> 03:37:32,000
iteration of this experiment, they would fold in other social conflicts,

3363
03:37:32,959 --> 03:37:36,680
including racism. And again, around the same time, there was

3364
03:37:36,719 --> 03:37:39,079
a whole bunch of studies based on what are called

3365
03:37:39,159 --> 03:37:43,760
looking time research. Methodology is basically, how long does an

3366
03:37:43,760 --> 03:37:50,319
infant stare at something, and how in particular do they

3367
03:37:50,680 --> 03:37:53,680
maintain their gaze or do they look away and get

3368
03:37:53,719 --> 03:37:56,639
bored and seek other kinds of stimulation. So at the

3369
03:37:56,639 --> 03:37:58,760
same time Paul Bloom is doing this research, there's other

3370
03:37:58,840 --> 03:38:03,120
research showing that, well, infants have a sort of racial preference.

3371
03:38:03,159 --> 03:38:05,040
You know, white babies are going to look at a

3372
03:38:05,079 --> 03:38:09,120
white face longer and more intently than they'll look at

3373
03:38:09,159 --> 03:38:12,479
a black face or a yellow face, or a red

3374
03:38:12,520 --> 03:38:14,760
face or a brown face, and so on and so forth.

3375
03:38:15,879 --> 03:38:21,719
And basically Paul blooms making this argument that we are

3376
03:38:22,040 --> 03:38:25,680
much more cognitively complex at an earlier stage and human

3377
03:38:25,799 --> 03:38:28,680
human development. That would be part one. That part two,

3378
03:38:28,799 --> 03:38:32,719
we have an innate preference for pro social or what's

3379
03:38:32,760 --> 03:38:37,520
sometimes called you social behavior. And three that part of

3380
03:38:37,600 --> 03:38:45,760
that preference is kinship preference. We have a bias towards

3381
03:38:45,920 --> 03:38:49,479
people that look like us, so on and so forth.

3382
03:38:50,440 --> 03:38:52,600
And I would show this, to go back to the

3383
03:38:52,760 --> 03:38:55,280
story time. I would show this to my students. The

3384
03:38:55,280 --> 03:38:57,719
students would be you know, as young as fresh out

3385
03:38:57,760 --> 03:39:00,639
of high school, as old as as like in their

3386
03:39:00,680 --> 03:39:03,360
fifties and sixties, trying to get another degree because the

3387
03:39:03,399 --> 03:39:09,159
economy was totally shit ten fifteen years ago, so you know, black, white, Arab, Jewish, Christian, whatever,

3388
03:39:09,319 --> 03:39:13,440
And routinely the two things I always observed, doesn't matter

3389
03:39:13,479 --> 03:39:17,079
where I taught it doesn't matter who I taught it to. One,

3390
03:39:17,120 --> 03:39:20,760
they were amazed at the idea that we have that

3391
03:39:20,840 --> 03:39:29,680
sort of cognitive sophistication that early on, so amazement. But

3392
03:39:29,799 --> 03:39:34,040
there was also a sort of horror at the idea

3393
03:39:34,719 --> 03:39:40,399
of implicating infants in the sort of nasty prejudices and

3394
03:39:41,120 --> 03:39:45,520
social evils that adults get messed up in. You know,

3395
03:39:45,520 --> 03:39:48,040
my class would be like, Okay, sure, maybe I'm racist,

3396
03:39:48,159 --> 03:39:51,799
but not like twenty four week old Timmy, he can't

3397
03:39:51,799 --> 03:39:54,479
be racist. That's you know, that's wrong. And so my

3398
03:39:54,559 --> 03:39:58,360
students had this sort of innate sense that you shouldn't

3399
03:39:58,399 --> 03:40:02,520
talk about infants that way, that you shouldn't responsibilize infants

3400
03:40:02,520 --> 03:40:04,680
that way, and that kind of sat with me for

3401
03:40:04,719 --> 03:40:07,360
a long time. And the point of the essay that

3402
03:40:07,399 --> 03:40:13,280
I basically make is there's a really really heavy presumption

3403
03:40:13,559 --> 03:40:17,879
that Paul Bloom is making that, whether it's wrong or correct,

3404
03:40:18,239 --> 03:40:22,159
the whole theory, his whole model kind of falls apart.

3405
03:40:22,520 --> 03:40:26,040
And the basic presumption he makes is that kinship is

3406
03:40:26,120 --> 03:40:31,479
a moral phenomenon as opposed to any other kind of

3407
03:40:31,879 --> 03:40:35,520
cognitive phenomenon. In other words, is it necessarily is there

3408
03:40:35,600 --> 03:40:40,280
a moral dimension to kinship preference. I think that's an

3409
03:40:40,280 --> 03:40:44,239
open question. I think it's a presumption that you're making

3410
03:40:44,799 --> 03:40:49,000
that the behavior or the type of categorization that the

3411
03:40:49,079 --> 03:40:54,120
infant is doing is necessarily moral as opposed to social,

3412
03:40:54,559 --> 03:41:00,639
as opposed to some other facet of social sorting would

3413
03:41:00,680 --> 03:41:03,479
be the technical phrase, some other type of cognitive sort

3414
03:41:03,520 --> 03:41:08,440
of Really, the only way you can, seemingly, the only

3415
03:41:08,479 --> 03:41:14,520
way you can define those behaviors as moral is if

3416
03:41:14,559 --> 03:41:18,040
you have a problem with those kinds of behaviors if

3417
03:41:18,079 --> 03:41:23,399
you see an issue with an individual identifying with someone

3418
03:41:23,440 --> 03:41:27,399
that they're genetically related to as opposed and showing preference

3419
03:41:27,799 --> 03:41:31,280
for someone that they are genetically related to over somebody else.

3420
03:41:31,520 --> 03:41:33,520
And there's a there's an excerpt in that essay from

3421
03:41:33,520 --> 03:41:37,200
a New York Times piece that that Paul Bloom wrote

3422
03:41:37,239 --> 03:41:40,760
that again, like the way we started our conversation basically

3423
03:41:40,799 --> 03:41:45,239
gives away the whole game. He says, oh, jeez, I

3424
03:41:45,239 --> 03:41:49,520
can probably pull it's probably worth pulling up the exact quote.

3425
03:41:50,079 --> 03:41:52,319
If you'll just bear with me for like half a second.

3426
03:41:53,040 --> 03:41:59,600
Speaker 1: Sure, here we go.

3427
03:42:03,520 --> 03:42:11,680
Speaker 2: All right, I'm not going to waste your time. Basically,

3428
03:42:11,719 --> 03:42:16,479
he says, there are there are key differences in the

3429
03:42:16,520 --> 03:42:21,399
ways that infants develop morally, and the problem is not

3430
03:42:21,520 --> 03:42:25,840
that they have those tendencies, is that they differ from

3431
03:42:25,959 --> 03:42:29,680
how we would like them to be. So basically he's saying,

3432
03:42:29,719 --> 03:42:33,319
we need to social engineer kinship preference out of infants,

3433
03:42:33,520 --> 03:42:36,360
and if we can demonstrate that they show kinship preference

3434
03:42:36,399 --> 03:42:39,440
as early as two three months, then that's really as

3435
03:42:39,479 --> 03:42:42,920
early as the social engineering program ought to start. And

3436
03:42:42,959 --> 03:42:45,559
that was what my students were intrinsically picking up on

3437
03:42:45,680 --> 03:42:49,319
in the classroom. They were recognizing that if you are

3438
03:42:49,360 --> 03:42:55,959
treating this novel cognitive psychology experiment as a pretext for

3439
03:42:56,120 --> 03:43:01,319
a sort of rigorous disciplinary educational program. Almost none of

3440
03:43:01,319 --> 03:43:04,159
them ever said that, but the horror that they all

3441
03:43:04,239 --> 03:43:10,040
saw in treating an infant like like something you can

3442
03:43:10,159 --> 03:43:13,000
mold was written all over their face. And that's really

3443
03:43:13,040 --> 03:43:15,639
the big issue with Paul Blum's body of work, And

3444
03:43:15,680 --> 03:43:19,319
that's what I'm focusing on in that essay is that, Look,

3445
03:43:21,280 --> 03:43:24,719
it's an open question whether or not there's a utility

3446
03:43:24,799 --> 03:43:30,840
and a benefit to studying moral and social development and infants.

3447
03:43:31,879 --> 03:43:34,680
But if you're doing that with the express intention of

3448
03:43:34,719 --> 03:43:42,440
trying to effectively derail cognitive development infant cognitive development, then

3449
03:43:42,479 --> 03:43:47,000
there's really there's neither a moral nor even a scientific

3450
03:43:47,440 --> 03:43:52,639
justification for doing so. I chose Paul Bloom's essay because

3451
03:43:52,639 --> 03:43:54,959
it's actually or his book, because it's actually one of

3452
03:43:54,959 --> 03:43:56,719
the worst books I've ever read in my entire life.

3453
03:43:57,200 --> 03:44:02,520
From an academic, you know, ivy league educated researcher. There's

3454
03:44:02,520 --> 03:44:07,559
no citations, which, by the way, like that doesn't bust

3455
03:44:07,600 --> 03:44:10,040
my balls that there's no citations in it. But if

3456
03:44:10,040 --> 03:44:13,440
you're like an Ivy League person, you're a department chair

3457
03:44:13,440 --> 03:44:16,040
of universities, you're on sick like that's what you're supposed

3458
03:44:16,079 --> 03:44:19,399
to do. Like that's this just like the bare minimum,

3459
03:44:19,959 --> 03:44:23,440
and it's just non sequitor after non sequader after nonsequitur

3460
03:44:24,440 --> 03:44:26,760
and and it's it's it's almost again not to get

3461
03:44:26,799 --> 03:44:29,440
too naughty and anti semitic here, but like you're reading

3462
03:44:29,479 --> 03:44:32,760
that book of his is like getting into the mind

3463
03:44:32,840 --> 03:44:37,479
of a Jewish propagandist because he's just telling you he's

3464
03:44:37,559 --> 03:44:40,360
he's demonstrating to you why his own logic doesn't really

3465
03:44:40,399 --> 03:44:44,479
make sense. You're getting to see the weaknesses in their worldview.

3466
03:44:45,600 --> 03:44:48,799
And there's a few other things he cites in there

3467
03:44:48,840 --> 03:44:53,440
in terms of like anti racist race science that I

3468
03:44:53,440 --> 03:44:56,959
think probably your audience would really enjoy it. So that's yeah,

3469
03:44:57,120 --> 03:44:58,520
that's what's up with Paul Blue.

3470
03:45:00,200 --> 03:45:02,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just it goes back to that. I mean,

3471
03:45:03,399 --> 03:45:05,600
at this point it's been attributed to so many people

3472
03:45:05,639 --> 03:45:09,680
as apocryphal that give me a child before they're two

3473
03:45:09,879 --> 03:45:12,799
three years old, and I'll I'll own their mind for

3474
03:45:12,840 --> 03:45:14,799
the rest of their lives. I'll mold their mind for

3475
03:45:14,840 --> 03:45:17,239
the rest of their lives. Yeah, I mean, that's that's

3476
03:45:17,280 --> 03:45:19,959
all I hear. And you know, and also what I

3477
03:45:20,040 --> 03:45:23,959
hear is I don't want this kid to grow up

3478
03:45:24,000 --> 03:45:27,319
to be baby Hitler, so we need to we need

3479
03:45:27,360 --> 03:45:29,799
to make sure of that. So please let me have

3480
03:45:29,920 --> 03:45:33,559
access to that mind so that it'll never think to

3481
03:45:34,399 --> 03:45:35,680
turn its gaze upon me.

3482
03:45:37,239 --> 03:45:43,360
Speaker 2: There's in that book. I like it, really, I was thunderstruck.

3483
03:45:44,680 --> 03:45:49,440
They're peppered all throughout the book. His book is called

3484
03:45:49,879 --> 03:45:53,239
Just Babies Origins of Good and Evil, you know, a

3485
03:45:53,239 --> 03:45:55,719
little bit of a punny title, like they're just babies,

3486
03:45:55,719 --> 03:45:57,840
but also just in the sense of like justice and

3487
03:45:57,879 --> 03:46:03,079
all that kind of thing. Peppered all throughout the book

3488
03:46:03,520 --> 03:46:11,600
are mentions of basically like collective violence against other groups,

3489
03:46:12,079 --> 03:46:15,799
and like in the first two or three pages he

3490
03:46:15,920 --> 03:46:20,559
mentions the show and all with only there's one exception.

3491
03:46:20,639 --> 03:46:23,200
All throughout the book, all of his examples of like

3492
03:46:23,440 --> 03:46:29,159
evil racism, evil group conflict. It's always anti Jewish pogrim

3493
03:46:29,200 --> 03:46:31,479
stuff throughout the book, and like you just can't help

3494
03:46:31,520 --> 03:46:34,319
but read it and think, like there's an agenda here.

3495
03:46:34,360 --> 03:46:38,520
This actually isn't science, this isn't social theorizing. This is

3496
03:46:38,760 --> 03:46:42,200
just as I said in our last conversation, like this

3497
03:46:42,319 --> 03:46:45,840
is just like a racial polemic, like you are wearing

3498
03:46:46,079 --> 03:46:49,680
the And this is a concept I introduce in that essay.

3499
03:46:49,760 --> 03:46:51,719
It's not my own concept, but I've kind of put

3500
03:46:51,760 --> 03:46:55,360
my own flavor on it. Back in the sixties, you know,

3501
03:46:55,479 --> 03:46:58,440
there used to be this talk of ethnoscience as a

3502
03:46:58,440 --> 03:47:04,639
way to talk about like, you know, uh, some African

3503
03:47:04,799 --> 03:47:09,159
guy in the bushes, you know, doing like witchcraft, voodoo

3504
03:47:09,200 --> 03:47:11,680
and and and basically there was there was an attempt

3505
03:47:11,719 --> 03:47:16,239
to try to make you know, non industrial societies and

3506
03:47:16,280 --> 03:47:23,719
their rudimentary like knowledge power, make it on an equal

3507
03:47:23,760 --> 03:47:27,799
footing to you know, Western civilization. But I twist that

3508
03:47:27,920 --> 03:47:31,000
a little bit, and I say, Okay, let's accept the

3509
03:47:31,040 --> 03:47:34,799
premise that different groups practice the scientific method differently. That's

3510
03:47:34,840 --> 03:47:40,040
basically what this concept of ethnoscience is trying to say. Well,

3511
03:47:40,040 --> 03:47:43,959
when when people like Paul Bloom tried to do the

3512
03:47:44,000 --> 03:47:50,280
scientific method, it's actually not about like objectivity, empiricism, uh,

3513
03:47:50,840 --> 03:47:56,879
science knowledge, It's it's racial self defense. And that's particularly

3514
03:47:56,959 --> 03:48:02,360
egregious when you are making in defense the object of

3515
03:48:02,399 --> 03:48:03,840
your racial self defense.

3516
03:48:06,000 --> 03:48:08,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think if people pick up the pick

3517
03:48:08,479 --> 03:48:12,680
up the book and read the read the addendum, they'll

3518
03:48:12,719 --> 03:48:15,879
get that. They'll I think you wrap that up where

3519
03:48:16,159 --> 03:48:19,479
basically a lot of the writers that you're you know,

3520
03:48:19,520 --> 03:48:22,520
most of the writers that you're covering, that's what they're doing.

3521
03:48:22,959 --> 03:48:26,920
It's basically all of their work is in defense of

3522
03:48:27,040 --> 03:48:29,120
their own self interest.

3523
03:48:31,079 --> 03:48:32,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is why I think is an important book.

3524
03:48:32,920 --> 03:48:35,600
I'm certainly not the first person to bark up this tree,

3525
03:48:35,959 --> 03:48:38,360
but I do think I did it pretty comprehensively, and

3526
03:48:38,399 --> 03:48:42,120
I tried to go after as many like central figures

3527
03:48:42,159 --> 03:48:44,559
as possible. Are there other people of the you know,

3528
03:48:44,600 --> 03:48:48,360
besides Daniel Konnoman who are worth interrogating. Yes, And I

3529
03:48:48,399 --> 03:48:51,719
hope that somebody reads this and thinks, well, I'll plug

3530
03:48:51,760 --> 03:48:55,559
that hole. I mean, this book is like very much

3531
03:48:55,639 --> 03:48:59,760
in the vein of like a Kevin McDonald type of writing. Right. So,

3532
03:48:59,840 --> 03:49:04,559
you know, I don't think I'm necessarily trailblazing, but I

3533
03:49:04,600 --> 03:49:08,959
do think, you know, with regard to Daniel Kahneman and

3534
03:49:09,079 --> 03:49:12,360
Jonathan Hyde, you know, these are two people who I think,

3535
03:49:13,399 --> 03:49:17,079
because of their recency, there's such a lack of skepticism

3536
03:49:17,559 --> 03:49:20,879
towards their work. It's easy to look you know, fifty years,

3537
03:49:20,879 --> 03:49:22,760
one hundred years in the past and say, oh, well,

3538
03:49:22,799 --> 03:49:26,360
Carl Popper kind of or Theodore Herzel or whoever kind

3539
03:49:26,360 --> 03:49:28,520
of like, you know, their shit's all fucked up part

3540
03:49:28,520 --> 03:49:31,520
of my language, Like it's obvious, but you're you know,

3541
03:49:31,799 --> 03:49:34,600
when it's in our lifetime and you're growing up and

3542
03:49:35,200 --> 03:49:38,079
maturing whatever, and you're seeing this work. You know, for

3543
03:49:38,120 --> 03:49:40,680
a whole bunch of reasons, people don't put their their

3544
03:49:40,719 --> 03:49:47,680
scrutinizing lenses on. And even in the right Jonathan Jonathan

3545
03:49:47,719 --> 03:49:54,280
Height's work is cited pretty much uncritically, and to me,

3546
03:49:54,559 --> 03:49:58,159
like his ideas have always been on their face wrong.

3547
03:50:00,120 --> 03:50:04,719
Same thing with Daniel Connoman, like the idea that evolution

3548
03:50:05,000 --> 03:50:08,360
over whatever thousands of years, millions of years, tens of

3549
03:50:08,360 --> 03:50:12,159
millions of years would create something like us that is

3550
03:50:12,200 --> 03:50:14,079
like a fifty to fifty coin flip in terms of

3551
03:50:14,280 --> 03:50:17,239
the shit going on between our ears, as it has

3552
03:50:17,280 --> 03:50:22,719
any positive utility, Like that's so obviously wrong. And the

3553
03:50:22,799 --> 03:50:29,799
thing that's so like to me kind of characteristic of

3554
03:50:29,840 --> 03:50:33,799
someone like a Daniel Connoman is that they develop all

3555
03:50:33,879 --> 03:50:40,120
this language, and they develop all these concepts that you

3556
03:50:40,280 --> 03:50:43,920
can't like test or apply in the real world or

3557
03:50:43,959 --> 03:50:52,120
that don't actually reduce confusion, but they actually create more confusion.

3558
03:50:52,319 --> 03:50:54,159
So like there's like one of the big concepts of

3559
03:50:54,239 --> 03:50:57,520
Daniel Connoman, and this is a tangent I apologize this.

3560
03:50:57,680 --> 03:51:00,840
He talks about the human consciousness basically being broken up

3561
03:51:00,920 --> 03:51:05,200
into two systems, system one and symptom system two. Hence

3562
03:51:05,200 --> 03:51:08,639
the title of his book thinking Fast and Slow. One

3563
03:51:08,719 --> 03:51:12,719
is faster, one is slower. One's more prejudicial, one is

3564
03:51:13,479 --> 03:51:18,159
more conservative and reserved. One is more rational, one is

3565
03:51:18,159 --> 03:51:22,559
more irrational. And then if you ask yourself, well, where

3566
03:51:22,680 --> 03:51:25,719
is System one in the brain or in the body,

3567
03:51:25,840 --> 03:51:29,559
or you can't point to it. It's not an actual

3568
03:51:29,719 --> 03:51:35,760
thing that corresponds to like a material or social reality chemisphere.

3569
03:51:35,959 --> 03:51:39,719
Speaker 1: Is that one hemisphere versus another or something.

3570
03:51:38,079 --> 03:51:41,079
Speaker 2: That right right? Even with Freud, and there's lots of

3571
03:51:41,120 --> 03:51:44,319
bad things you can say about Freud, but his tripartite

3572
03:51:44,319 --> 03:51:47,879
model of the mind more or less kind of corresponds

3573
03:51:47,920 --> 03:51:51,920
to the major areas of the brain prefrontal cortex, mid brain,

3574
03:51:52,000 --> 03:51:57,799
hind brain. There's a sort of analogical thing happening there.

3575
03:51:58,879 --> 03:52:01,280
But with kind of me, it's like I'm just making

3576
03:52:01,319 --> 03:52:05,520
it's it's literally word craft, it's just word wizardry. And

3577
03:52:05,520 --> 03:52:07,360
and then you know, the title of the book, Intolerant

3578
03:52:07,440 --> 03:52:12,959
Interpretations is a very specifically intended title, like you need

3579
03:52:13,000 --> 03:52:16,680
to hear those kinds of things and immediately disregard them.

3580
03:52:17,319 --> 03:52:20,840
Like part of the problem that a lot of us have,

3581
03:52:21,600 --> 03:52:25,879
for one reason or another is we're just uncritically accepting

3582
03:52:25,920 --> 03:52:29,920
what's happening. And you can actually be like a like

3583
03:52:29,959 --> 03:52:33,440
a jerk, like a disagreeable jerk from the outset and

3584
03:52:33,520 --> 03:52:37,479
be right about like the whole affair. And that's that's

3585
03:52:37,479 --> 03:52:39,479
what I'm That's what I'm encouraging people to do. I'm

3586
03:52:39,559 --> 03:52:43,799
encouraging people to be a disagreeable jerk to basically fight,

3587
03:52:44,280 --> 03:52:47,520
like like just don't accept the premise and and that

3588
03:52:47,520 --> 03:52:51,799
that that pertains to like our political activism, Like I

3589
03:52:51,840 --> 03:52:56,239
don't need to entertain the prospect that the United States

3590
03:52:56,239 --> 03:53:00,639
of America is a you know, giant job fair for

3591
03:53:00,719 --> 03:53:02,680
the whole rest of the world. I don't have to

3592
03:53:02,760 --> 03:53:07,079
accept the premise that our ancestors were bad people and

3593
03:53:07,200 --> 03:53:09,399
we need to be punished for it. I don't need

3594
03:53:09,440 --> 03:53:15,399
to accept that we should encourage people to forego family

3595
03:53:15,479 --> 03:53:21,399
formation so because reasons, because reasons that like on their

3596
03:53:21,399 --> 03:53:23,479
face don't even stand up to scrutiny anymore.

3597
03:53:25,440 --> 03:53:28,399
Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that was mentioned is

3598
03:53:28,559 --> 03:53:33,000
just the myth of the individual you know, coming from

3599
03:53:33,040 --> 03:53:38,360
a libertarian background, the first thing somebody does when they

3600
03:53:38,399 --> 03:53:46,239
become a libertarian, which is the most individualistic ideology out

3601
03:53:46,319 --> 03:53:51,120
there political quote unquote political ideology out there, is they're like, oh, wow,

3602
03:53:51,239 --> 03:53:54,879
I'm an individual I need to find other people who

3603
03:53:54,920 --> 03:53:58,639
consider themselves to be individuals. There's a fucking political party

3604
03:53:58,680 --> 03:54:03,399
in this country of radical individuals. I mean, if that

3605
03:54:03,440 --> 03:54:08,639
doesn't tell you that that individuality and radical individualism is

3606
03:54:08,760 --> 03:54:12,120
just a myth that as soon as somebody finds, oh

3607
03:54:12,239 --> 03:54:15,479
I'm embracing this, but oh I want to hang out

3608
03:54:15,520 --> 03:54:19,879
with other people who who are radical individuals too. It's

3609
03:54:19,920 --> 03:54:22,879
like that doesn't make any sense. What are you talking about?

3610
03:54:23,200 --> 03:54:26,440
You know, and you know, people should you know, once

3611
03:54:26,479 --> 03:54:28,680
you start going down the rabbit hole of you know,

3612
03:54:30,120 --> 03:54:34,760
who preached libertarianism and where that came from, and you know,

3613
03:54:34,959 --> 03:54:38,840
maybe look at some of the names. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

3614
03:54:38,920 --> 03:54:42,399
may start seeing some similarities there too to what we're

3615
03:54:42,440 --> 03:54:43,959
talking about.

3616
03:54:44,559 --> 03:54:48,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is again it's a fine line that we

3617
03:54:48,159 --> 03:54:51,760
have to walk because I correct me if I'm wrong.

3618
03:54:51,799 --> 03:54:56,639
I don't think you would flat out reject anything associated

3619
03:54:56,639 --> 03:55:00,440
with individuality, like we are our own people. I mean,

3620
03:55:01,239 --> 03:55:01,559
this is.

3621
03:55:01,479 --> 03:55:07,159
Speaker 1: Why individual we're individuals within a group mmma, which is why.

3622
03:55:07,000 --> 03:55:09,799
Speaker 2: I emphasize people like Gerd gigorinz Or in my book

3623
03:55:09,840 --> 03:55:12,399
as sort of an antidote to that. Yes, you are you,

3624
03:55:13,120 --> 03:55:17,440
Peter R. Cononas, and there is no other Peter R. Cononash,

3625
03:55:17,479 --> 03:55:22,120
and you are in critical ways very different from everyone

3626
03:55:22,159 --> 03:55:26,559
around you. But at the end of the day, we're

3627
03:55:26,600 --> 03:55:30,680
a collective. We're a sort of hive organism. We exist

3628
03:55:30,680 --> 03:55:34,159
in physical spaces in proximity to other people that we

3629
03:55:34,319 --> 03:55:38,719
all depend on, even in ways that we can't possibly fathom.

3630
03:55:38,719 --> 03:55:40,639
So that's those those are kind of the major take

3631
03:55:40,680 --> 03:55:41,840
homes of my book.

3632
03:55:42,639 --> 03:55:46,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, And remind everybody again where they can

3633
03:55:46,399 --> 03:55:46,799
find the.

3634
03:55:46,719 --> 03:55:52,000
Speaker 2: Book Antelope Hill Publishing dot com. It's also on Amazon.

3635
03:55:53,280 --> 03:55:56,040
If you like the way this stuff sounds, you can

3636
03:55:56,079 --> 03:55:59,239
pick up my old books and Imperium Press. And I

3637
03:55:59,319 --> 03:56:03,440
maintain a blot janeel dot substack dot com where I

3638
03:56:03,559 --> 03:56:06,879
basically continue the same type of writing. So Pete, I

3639
03:56:06,920 --> 03:56:09,879
really appreciate it your total gentleman, and to your audience

3640
03:56:10,200 --> 03:56:10,959
by my book.

3641
03:56:11,799 --> 03:56:14,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a reminder, you have five percent off of

3642
03:56:15,719 --> 03:56:17,760
if you go buy his books at Antelope Hill and

3643
03:56:17,840 --> 03:56:20,399
any other of the great books at Antelope Hill if

3644
03:56:20,440 --> 03:56:23,680
you use code PEQ all one word at checkout. I

3645
03:56:23,760 --> 03:56:28,040
cover shipping most of the time. So yeah, I've My

3646
03:56:29,239 --> 03:56:31,360
library is on the other side of the room, and

3647
03:56:32,239 --> 03:56:34,639
if I were to start pulling out the amount of

3648
03:56:34,680 --> 03:56:38,520
books from Antelope Hill, it'd be quite the pile. So

3649
03:56:39,040 --> 03:56:41,760
head on over there. Thank you, Josh, really appreciate it.

3650
03:56:42,799 --> 03:56:45,280
I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekinana Show.

3651
03:56:45,600 --> 03:56:47,719
Josh Neil is back. Josh, how you doing.

3652
03:56:49,239 --> 03:56:54,559
Speaker 2: I am nasally congested, and that makes me very much

3653
03:56:54,680 --> 03:57:00,000
like the the gentleman we're about to talk about today,

3654
03:56:59,479 --> 03:57:02,239
So I'm feeling sympatico with the subject matter.

3655
03:57:04,000 --> 03:57:06,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're going to talk about Freud here. We're

3656
03:57:06,120 --> 03:57:08,520
going to talk specifically, we're going to read an article

3657
03:57:08,559 --> 03:57:12,840
that Lorraine Gignol wrote back in twenty nineteen and included

3658
03:57:12,879 --> 03:57:17,399
in one of his books. So, if we're talking about Freud,

3659
03:57:18,760 --> 03:57:24,520
is there anything that gives you like, have you ever

3660
03:57:24,600 --> 03:57:28,159
been what's your credibility to be able to talk about Freud?

3661
03:57:30,280 --> 03:57:34,280
Speaker 2: Well, the graduate school I went to was a heavily

3662
03:57:34,360 --> 03:57:39,000
psychodynamic psychoanalytic program. Most of the people, most of the

3663
03:57:39,399 --> 03:57:46,000
faculty in the psychology the grad program had had that background,

3664
03:57:46,079 --> 03:57:48,879
and so that was most of I mean, most of

3665
03:57:48,920 --> 03:57:54,239
the classes I took to were from a Freudian perspective.

3666
03:57:54,520 --> 03:58:01,479
I'm not a Freudian myself, and most of my career,

3667
03:58:01,639 --> 03:58:04,760
if you want to call it that, what I took

3668
03:58:04,799 --> 03:58:10,600
from Freud was sort of like a a contrarian point

3669
03:58:10,639 --> 03:58:14,559
of view, which is to say, there's a there's a

3670
03:58:14,559 --> 03:58:17,319
couple of like to the extent that people know about Freud,

3671
03:58:17,360 --> 03:58:19,280
they tend to land on a couple on one of

3672
03:58:19,319 --> 03:58:25,120
a few perspectives. One conventional perspective is that, well, he

3673
03:58:25,239 --> 03:58:27,799
wasn't doing real science, so all of it is junk

3674
03:58:29,479 --> 03:58:32,639
if you're in this milieu. One perspective as well, he

3675
03:58:32,879 --> 03:58:39,319
was Jewish, so it's all junk. Or if you're like

3676
03:58:39,360 --> 03:58:43,879
sort of like a like a left winger, then he's

3677
03:58:43,920 --> 03:58:48,120
sort of unimpeachable in a lot of ways. I fall

3678
03:58:48,239 --> 03:58:50,360
somewhere in the middle. I think his work is very

3679
03:58:50,399 --> 03:58:54,959
instructive as an insight into the Jewish not just the

3680
03:58:55,040 --> 03:58:59,360
Jewish mind, but like Jewish communal living, because as we're

3681
03:58:59,360 --> 03:59:02,639
going to see with this essay, most of his work.

3682
03:59:02,879 --> 03:59:08,399
You could say his work is heavily autobiographical. The concept

3683
03:59:08,479 --> 03:59:13,959
he develops are a direct result of his own experience,

3684
03:59:14,760 --> 03:59:19,719
and he prefigured, he prefigured like the sort of modern

3685
03:59:19,760 --> 03:59:24,120
preoccupation with with like trauma, which is unfortunate because I

3686
03:59:24,159 --> 03:59:28,920
think it was it was, it's an it's now like

3687
03:59:28,959 --> 03:59:34,520
sort of a trite observation to make that a large

3688
03:59:34,520 --> 03:59:38,639
amount of psychological dysfunction, even social dysfunction, is due to

3689
03:59:38,799 --> 03:59:44,239
disruption of of the home, the domestic circumstance early in

3690
03:59:44,280 --> 03:59:47,840
a child's life. Whether we're talking about like homosexuality or

3691
03:59:47,879 --> 03:59:53,000
you know, aberrant sexualities in general, they're just statistically, they're

3692
03:59:53,040 --> 03:59:57,120
they're the result of dysfunction in the home life early

3693
03:59:57,159 --> 04:00:00,799
on in the kid's life. I also think he's interesting

3694
04:00:00,920 --> 04:00:03,639
just for his like sort of anthropological work, which also

3695
04:00:04,280 --> 04:00:07,520
kind of you have to take him into view what

3696
04:00:07,520 --> 04:00:10,959
what Lourentz argues in this book to kind of understand

3697
04:00:11,000 --> 04:00:16,680
his anthropological work. His his whole idea of like the

3698
04:00:16,680 --> 04:00:20,479
the son's ganging up to kill the father, takes a

3699
04:00:20,520 --> 04:00:25,520
different tone when you consider his own personal autobiography and

3700
04:00:25,520 --> 04:00:29,920
and and what his work was about but also like

3701
04:00:29,959 --> 04:00:32,959
some of his anthropological work, like his book From Moses

3702
04:00:32,959 --> 04:00:36,639
to Monotheism. You know, he's treated as a subversive, especially

3703
04:00:36,799 --> 04:00:42,239
people who get into stuff his his relatives were up to,

3704
04:00:42,280 --> 04:00:46,639
like Edward Burnet's and they there's maybe you could say

3705
04:00:46,680 --> 04:00:50,600
he was an equal opportunity subversive because he undermined the

3706
04:00:50,680 --> 04:00:55,879
Jewish claim to being the first monotheistic people. So I

3707
04:00:55,879 --> 04:01:00,719
think he was an interesting He had an introst in career.

3708
04:01:01,639 --> 04:01:05,799
But what's more interesting is the stuff beneath the surface,

3709
04:01:05,799 --> 04:01:09,520
which we're obviously going to get into today.

3710
04:01:09,600 --> 04:01:11,959
Speaker 1: All right, So I'm going to start reading stop Me

3711
04:01:12,000 --> 04:01:18,079
at any time. Don't just stop me. Don't be you know,

3712
04:01:18,120 --> 04:01:20,760
don't hesitate to stop me. It's not I'm not going

3713
04:01:20,799 --> 04:01:25,360
to be insulted or anything like that. And yeah, so

3714
04:01:25,520 --> 04:01:28,959
this is the title of it. The chapter in the

3715
04:01:29,000 --> 04:01:31,600
book that this is included in is different, but the

3716
04:01:31,639 --> 04:01:33,399
title when he wrote it and it was put on

3717
04:01:33,520 --> 04:01:36,879
uns review was Freud's Sexual Abuse in Bena Breath. So

3718
04:01:37,319 --> 04:01:41,239
I'll start reading stop Me whenever. In the last few years,

3719
04:01:41,280 --> 04:01:45,399
there I've been lots of news reports, documentary films, and

3720
04:01:45,639 --> 04:01:49,239
articles about sexual abuse of children in Orthodox Jewish communities

3721
04:01:49,879 --> 04:01:53,319
in March twenty seventeen, for instance, Haretz reported that the

3722
04:01:53,360 --> 04:01:56,639
Israeli police arrested twenty two ultra Orthodox Jews for sex

3723
04:01:56,719 --> 04:01:59,920
crimes against miners and women, and in July twenty nineteen,

3724
04:02:00,120 --> 04:02:03,399
Times of Israel reported that the Deputy Health Minister Jakov

3725
04:02:03,520 --> 04:02:08,319
Litzmann was alleged to have improperly intervened to aid at

3726
04:02:08,399 --> 04:02:13,600
least ten sex offenders from Israel's ultra Orthodox community. In

3727
04:02:13,639 --> 04:02:17,639
twenty fifteen, Jewish attorney Michael Lescher wrote Sex Abuse Shanda

3728
04:02:17,719 --> 04:02:23,959
and Concealment in Orthodox Jewish Communities to document, quoting the

3729
04:02:24,000 --> 04:02:26,879
dismal history of how far too many of those cases

3730
04:02:26,920 --> 04:02:29,959
have been assiduously concealed, both from the public and from

3731
04:02:29,959 --> 04:02:33,760
the police. How influential rabbis and community leaders have sided

3732
04:02:33,760 --> 04:02:36,959
with the alleged abusers against their victims. How victims and

3733
04:02:37,000 --> 04:02:41,079
witnesses of sexual abuse have been pressured even threatened, not

3734
04:02:41,239 --> 04:02:44,479
to turn to secular law enforcement for help. How autonomous

3735
04:02:44,559 --> 04:02:48,120
Jewish patrols, displacing the role of official police in some

3736
04:02:48,280 --> 04:02:52,479
large and heavily religious Jewish neighborhoods, have played an inglorious

3737
04:02:52,520 --> 04:02:55,319
part in the history of cover ups. How some Jewish

3738
04:02:55,319 --> 04:02:59,079
communities have even succeeded in manipulating law enforcement officials to

3739
04:02:59,159 --> 04:03:04,799
protect suspects did abusers. This reminds me of the story

3740
04:03:04,799 --> 04:03:07,719
of how Freud, having stumbled upon the widespread reality of

3741
04:03:07,840 --> 04:03:12,000
child abuse among his mostly Jewish clientsele, covered it up

3742
04:03:12,000 --> 04:03:14,920
with the theory that all little girls desire their father's

3743
04:03:15,000 --> 04:03:18,639
penises and all little boys dream of screwing their mothers,

3744
04:03:19,239 --> 04:03:22,200
and named his theory after a gentile myth.

3745
04:03:24,639 --> 04:03:33,639
Speaker 2: Well just to well, just just the bit about how

3746
04:03:34,040 --> 04:03:39,760
the Jewish community will aggressively not even self police, but

3747
04:03:39,760 --> 04:03:46,680
but more of like do run interference between themselves and

3748
04:03:46,719 --> 04:03:49,479
the larger community. There was an there was an article

3749
04:03:49,760 --> 04:03:53,040
like ten years ago in the New York Times that

3750
04:03:53,200 --> 04:03:59,159
was talking about the tendency for the rabbinical Orthodox Jews

3751
04:04:00,079 --> 04:04:05,559
to ostracize members of their community if they brought stories

3752
04:04:05,600 --> 04:04:10,200
of sexual abuse to the broader, gentile public. So I

3753
04:04:10,239 --> 04:04:14,159
wish I could pull that up. I just there's I

3754
04:04:14,159 --> 04:04:17,000
don't know, I'm not finding it now, but yeah, it's

3755
04:04:17,040 --> 04:04:23,840
just it's remarkable. I hesitate to say exactly that that

3756
04:04:24,239 --> 04:04:29,079
sexual abuse or sexual violence is like sort of intrinsic

3757
04:04:29,159 --> 04:04:34,479
to the Jewish social milieu, but it's hard to argue otherwise.

3758
04:04:36,680 --> 04:04:42,159
Speaker 1: All right. Two Freud's assault on truth the story has

3759
04:04:42,200 --> 04:04:45,840
been told by Jeffrey Massan, and the Assault on Truth

3760
04:04:46,360 --> 04:04:50,360
Freud's suppression of the seduction theory. In eighteen ninety five

3761
04:04:50,360 --> 04:04:53,319
and eighteen ninety six, Freud, listening to his neurotic and

3762
04:04:53,360 --> 04:04:57,040
hysterical patients, became convinced that most of them had suffered

3763
04:04:57,079 --> 04:05:01,639
from traumatic sexual abuse in their childhood. The traumatic origin

3764
04:05:01,680 --> 04:05:05,680
of hysteria and overused diagnosis in these days had already

3765
04:05:05,680 --> 04:05:10,760
been discussed by neurologists, including Jean Martin Charcaut, whose conferences

3766
04:05:10,799 --> 04:05:15,040
Freud had attended in Paris, and Hermann Oppenheim, who published

3767
04:05:15,040 --> 04:05:18,159
in Berlin in eighteen eighty nine a treatise on traumatic

3768
04:05:18,239 --> 04:05:25,559
neurosis Neuroses, Yet psychological traumas of sexual nature were rarely

3769
04:05:25,600 --> 04:05:29,799
discussed openly. On the other hand, there were medical publications

3770
04:05:29,840 --> 04:05:33,120
known to Freud documenting the frequency of violence on children,

3771
04:05:33,159 --> 04:05:37,120
including sexual assaults, but they focused on the physical consequences.

3772
04:05:38,879 --> 04:05:41,799
In April eighteen ninety six, confident to have made a

3773
04:05:41,840 --> 04:05:45,319
major breakthrough in psychiatry, Freud presented his findings to the

3774
04:05:45,360 --> 04:05:49,879
Society for Psychiatry and Neurology in Vienna, his first major

3775
04:05:49,920 --> 04:05:54,760
public address to his peers. His lecture met with total silence.

3776
04:05:55,319 --> 04:05:59,799
According to Masan, Freud was urged never to publish it

3777
04:06:00,200 --> 04:06:05,799
lest his reputation be damaged beyond repair. He found himself isolated,

3778
04:06:05,799 --> 04:06:12,319
but nevertheless published his paper The Ideology of Hysteria. Are

3779
04:06:12,399 --> 04:06:15,440
you familiar with that term?

3780
04:06:16,200 --> 04:06:20,200
Speaker 2: Actually, I'm not. I think it's just an orthodo orthodox

3781
04:06:22,280 --> 04:06:26,680
pronunciation of ideology, just to say the origin of hysteria.

3782
04:06:29,760 --> 04:06:32,879
Speaker 1: Freud's conclusions are drawn from eighteen case studies, six men

3783
04:06:32,920 --> 04:06:35,399
and twelve women, all of which he claims bear his

3784
04:06:35,559 --> 04:06:40,559
general thesis. This is quoting. I therefore put forward the

3785
04:06:40,559 --> 04:06:42,920
thesis that at the bottom of every case of hysteria

3786
04:06:42,959 --> 04:06:46,760
there are one or more occurrences of premature sexual experience,

3787
04:06:47,319 --> 04:06:50,239
occurrences which belong to the earliest years of childhood, but

3788
04:06:50,280 --> 04:06:53,520
which can be reproduced through the work of psychoanalysis in

3789
04:06:53,559 --> 04:06:56,440
spite of the intervening decades. I believe that this is

3790
04:06:56,479 --> 04:07:04,239
an important finding. The discovery of a caputnilli kaputneli in neuropathology.

3791
04:07:04,760 --> 04:07:08,479
Sexual experiences in childhood consisting in stimulation of the genitals,

3792
04:07:08,559 --> 04:07:12,319
coitus like acts and so on, must therefore be recognized

3793
04:07:12,360 --> 04:07:14,959
in the last analysis as being the traumas which lead

3794
04:07:15,000 --> 04:07:18,200
to a hysterical reaction to events at puberty and to

3795
04:07:18,239 --> 04:07:22,120
the development of hysterical symptoms. Yeah.

3796
04:07:22,239 --> 04:07:26,959
Speaker 2: Just that's the UK spelling of ideology, and that phrase

3797
04:07:27,000 --> 04:07:32,520
couput neeli is also just saying the origin of neuropathology, okay.

3798
04:07:33,799 --> 04:07:36,959
Speaker 1: Freud suggests that this conclusion applies not only to hysteria

3799
04:07:37,000 --> 04:07:40,760
but to most neuroses. Among other remarks, he suggests that

3800
04:07:40,879 --> 04:07:45,000
children who aggress sexually other children do so as a

3801
04:07:45,040 --> 04:07:49,440
result of having been sexually abused themselves. Quote. Children cannot

3802
04:07:49,440 --> 04:07:52,600
find their way to acts of sexual aggression unless they

3803
04:07:52,600 --> 04:07:58,799
have been seduced previously. However, one year after this article,

3804
04:07:59,000 --> 04:08:01,440
Freud decided that he had made a mistake in believing

3805
04:08:01,479 --> 04:08:06,399
his patients. He determined that what he was taken at,

3806
04:08:06,600 --> 04:08:09,639
what he had taken as repressed memories of sexual abuse,

3807
04:08:10,239 --> 04:08:14,239
were in fact fantasies. For the rest of his life

3808
04:08:14,280 --> 04:08:16,799
he would keep telling how he overcame his era and

3809
04:08:16,879 --> 04:08:20,479
discovered that these fantasies were intended to cover up the

3810
04:08:20,520 --> 04:08:24,200
auto erotic activity of the first years of childhood, to

3811
04:08:24,319 --> 04:08:27,360
embellish it and raise it to a higher plane. And

3812
04:08:27,440 --> 04:08:30,159
now from behind the fantasies, the whole range of a

3813
04:08:30,280 --> 04:08:33,719
child's sexual light came to light. The This is from

3814
04:08:33,760 --> 04:08:36,399
the history of the psychoanalytic movement in nineteen nineteen.

3815
04:08:37,319 --> 04:08:39,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just to clarify, I mean, there's a lot

3816
04:08:39,680 --> 04:08:45,760
of sort of unorthodox language and spelling of common terms

3817
04:08:45,879 --> 04:08:49,840
in the English language, like fantasy with a pH is

3818
04:08:49,879 --> 04:08:54,600
not meant to be synonymous with fantasy with an F.

3819
04:08:54,600 --> 04:08:59,559
Fantasy with the pH is And this was something that

3820
04:09:00,079 --> 04:09:04,520
other psychoanalysts picked up later, like Melani Kleine. But it's

3821
04:09:04,600 --> 04:09:13,079
basically a sort of mental representation of the the wishes

3822
04:09:13,120 --> 04:09:16,879
and desires of the individual. So it's it's not quite

3823
04:09:20,840 --> 04:09:23,000
it's not a fantasy with an F. It's a fantasy

3824
04:09:23,000 --> 04:09:26,319
with a pH. It's it's connected to sort of unconscious

3825
04:09:26,319 --> 04:09:30,079
mental processes in the way that they they generate this,

3826
04:09:31,920 --> 04:09:36,120
they generate wish fulfillments. That's tied to Freud's idea of

3827
04:09:36,120 --> 04:09:40,920
the wish fulfillment but also frustrated wishes. So that's just

3828
04:09:41,079 --> 04:09:43,559
generally what the pH is supposed to denote.

3829
04:09:45,319 --> 04:09:48,719
Speaker 1: From the standpoint of Freud's earlier theory, which he euphemistically

3830
04:09:48,760 --> 04:09:52,719
called the seduction theory, his new theory of spontaneous infantile

3831
04:09:52,799 --> 04:09:56,360
sexual fantasies can be seen as a projection. Not unlike

3832
04:09:56,440 --> 04:10:01,000
sex offenders tendency to blame their victims, theations themselves are

3833
04:10:01,040 --> 04:10:05,040
now accused of both sexual passion and murderous fantasies towards

3834
04:10:05,079 --> 04:10:11,479
their parents. By repressing these self generated impulses, says Freudian orthodoxy,

3835
04:10:11,760 --> 04:10:15,079
they have created their own neuroses, which may, in hysterics,

3836
04:10:15,360 --> 04:10:21,479
take the form of false memories of abuse. Thirty five

3837
04:10:21,559 --> 04:10:25,239
years later, Freud's most gifted disciple, once president of the

3838
04:10:25,280 --> 04:10:29,719
International Psychoanalytic Association, stumbled on the same realization that Freud

3839
04:10:29,719 --> 04:10:35,680
had shared in the Ideology of Hysteria. Sandor Freji wrote

3840
04:10:35,680 --> 04:10:38,040
in his diary in July nineteen thirty two that the

3841
04:10:38,079 --> 04:10:41,399
Oedipus complex could well be the result of real acts

3842
04:10:41,440 --> 04:10:45,360
on the part of adults, namely violent passions directed toward

3843
04:10:45,440 --> 04:10:49,319
the children, who then develop a fixation not from desire,

3844
04:10:49,440 --> 04:10:53,920
as Freud maintained, but from fear my mother and father

3845
04:10:54,000 --> 04:10:57,280
will kill me if I don't love them and identify

3846
04:10:57,319 --> 04:11:03,399
with their wishes. Becoming his apprehension of Freud's reaction, Florenci

3847
04:11:04,000 --> 04:11:08,239
dared present his conclusions before the twelfth International Psychoanalytic Conference

3848
04:11:08,239 --> 04:11:12,239
of Congress in electrotitled Confusion of Tongues between the Adults

3849
04:11:12,239 --> 04:11:15,920
and the Children. His paper contains a number of important

3850
04:11:15,959 --> 04:11:19,760
ideas confirmed by later research, such as the victim's psychological

3851
04:11:19,879 --> 04:11:25,319
identification with the aggressor or introjection. The aggressor disappears as

3852
04:11:25,360 --> 04:11:30,879
external reality and becomes intrapsychic instead of extra psychic, so

3853
04:11:30,959 --> 04:11:34,079
that even the guilt feelings of the aggressor are introjected.

3854
04:11:34,760 --> 04:11:40,319
Farensi hypothesized that helplessness caused the victim to empathize with

3855
04:11:40,360 --> 04:11:44,120
the aggressor, a process today known as Stockholm syndrome.

3856
04:11:45,440 --> 04:11:48,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's what interjection basically refers to. It's

3857
04:11:48,799 --> 04:11:55,319
the internalizing, making a mental model of some authority, the

3858
04:11:55,440 --> 04:12:01,280
internalizing of the characteristics or habits or mentalities of some authority. Figure.

3859
04:12:02,959 --> 04:12:07,680
Now that takes a very different context, you know, the

3860
04:12:07,680 --> 04:12:13,079
difference between like internalizing a teacher or a school master,

3861
04:12:13,360 --> 04:12:16,040
or a parent or an older sibling, as opposed to

3862
04:12:16,799 --> 04:12:23,159
internalizing the attitudes and dispositions of an abusive of an abuser.

3863
04:12:24,360 --> 04:12:26,920
I mean that also there's a lot of Freudian concepts,

3864
04:12:27,040 --> 04:12:29,639
not to like get way ahead of where we're at already.

3865
04:12:29,840 --> 04:12:33,319
But there's a lot of Freudian concepts that take on

3866
04:12:33,360 --> 04:12:38,079
a different character if you view them as being sort

3867
04:12:38,120 --> 04:12:45,120
of compensatory responses to extreme trauma, extreme sexual violence, Like

3868
04:12:45,239 --> 04:12:50,959
repetition compulsion is another example. Repetition compulsion, in like the

3869
04:12:51,159 --> 04:12:56,680
orthodox Freudian worldview, is the tendency of an individual to

3870
04:12:56,760 --> 04:13:03,040
repeat some action, usually aunctional action, until they gain mastery

3871
04:13:03,079 --> 04:13:07,600
over it and then can integrate that aspect of themselves

3872
04:13:07,840 --> 04:13:13,120
into the larger psychological world. But when you think about

3873
04:13:13,559 --> 04:13:19,079
the habit or the tendency of like sex abuse victims

3874
04:13:19,159 --> 04:13:26,399
to engage in repetitive sexual dysfunction, to like volunteer themselves

3875
04:13:26,399 --> 04:13:32,600
into pornography or prostitution, or go from one one disastrous

3876
04:13:33,600 --> 04:13:39,360
sexually violent situation to another disastrous sexually violent situation. It

3877
04:13:40,920 --> 04:13:45,040
they never get to a point of mastery, and it's

3878
04:13:45,040 --> 04:13:49,920
sort of like dispels the whole idea of the of

3879
04:13:49,959 --> 04:13:54,040
the like the claim, the cleaned up interpretation of what

3880
04:13:54,079 --> 04:13:57,600
that is supposed to express. It makes more sense in

3881
04:13:57,639 --> 04:14:00,360
the context of as we're going to see a little

3882
04:14:00,360 --> 04:14:05,399
bit later on, that individual has a split internally and

3883
04:14:05,440 --> 04:14:09,680
they don't have the only frame of reference they have

3884
04:14:09,879 --> 04:14:17,239
is this violent, chaotic, traumatic aggressor personality.

3885
04:14:17,760 --> 04:14:22,239
Speaker 1: Extreme adversity, especially fear of death, may also trigger a

3886
04:14:22,280 --> 04:14:26,719
premature development, for which Farenci uses the metaphor of a

3887
04:14:26,760 --> 04:14:30,280
fruit that ripens or becomes sweet prematurely when injured by

3888
04:14:30,319 --> 04:14:33,000
the beak of a bird, or of the premature ripening

3889
04:14:33,000 --> 04:14:35,719
of a wormy fruit. Shock can cause a part of

3890
04:14:35,760 --> 04:14:39,479
the person to mature suddenly, not only emotionally, but intellectually

3891
04:14:39,520 --> 04:14:44,280
as well. Such traumatic maturation happens at the expense of

3892
04:14:44,879 --> 04:14:49,799
psychological integration, and Ferensi brings in the notion of a

3893
04:14:49,799 --> 04:14:53,360
personality split quote there can be no shock, no fright

3894
04:14:53,479 --> 04:14:57,360
without traces of a personality split. In his personal diary,

3895
04:14:57,440 --> 04:15:00,440
reflecting on a patient who cannot remember having been raped

3896
04:15:00,680 --> 04:15:04,280
but dreams of it ceaselessly French, he writes, I know

3897
04:15:04,399 --> 04:15:08,200
from other analyzes that a part of our being can die,

3898
04:15:08,360 --> 04:15:11,000
and while the remaining part of our self may survive

3899
04:15:11,079 --> 04:15:14,799
the trauma, it awakens with a gap in its memory. Actually,

3900
04:15:14,840 --> 04:15:17,319
it is a gap in the personality because not only

3901
04:15:17,399 --> 04:15:19,799
as the memory of the struggle to the death effaced,

3902
04:15:20,120 --> 04:15:26,200
but all other associations associatively linked memories disappear, perhaps forever.

3903
04:15:28,879 --> 04:15:31,559
The observation is consistent with the findings of French medical

3904
04:15:31,600 --> 04:15:35,840
doctor and psychologist Pierre Janet, whose work has long been

3905
04:15:35,879 --> 04:15:39,760
overshadowed by Freudian psychology but has generated increased interest. In

3906
04:15:39,920 --> 04:15:45,360
the nineteen eighties, Janet theorized the first model of disassociative

3907
04:15:45,399 --> 04:15:49,920
identity disorders, now included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual

3908
04:15:49,959 --> 04:15:57,879
of Mental Disorders. In Les Nevrosis, Janet wrote, justice, synthesis,

3909
04:15:57,879 --> 04:16:02,360
and association are the great characterists of all normal psychological operations,

3910
04:16:02,520 --> 04:16:05,920
so disassociation is the essential characteristic of all diseases of

3911
04:16:05,920 --> 04:16:10,239
the mind. Disassociation accounts for the evolution of traumatic memories

3912
04:16:10,239 --> 04:16:15,719
composed of psychological, sensory, effective, and cognitive experiences, which Shanez

3913
04:16:15,840 --> 04:16:22,120
calls ide fise. These fragmented aspects of the experience do

3914
04:16:22,239 --> 04:16:25,000
not allow a real memory to integrate the biography of

3915
04:16:25,040 --> 04:16:28,680
the subject, and instead develop into separate psychic entities which

3916
04:16:28,719 --> 04:16:33,479
nevertheless interfere with the main personality. In the most severe cases,

3917
04:16:33,520 --> 04:16:40,840
it can develop into schizophrenia or multiple personalities. Parensi's lecture

3918
04:16:40,959 --> 04:16:43,760
Confusion of Tongues met with the same disapproval from members

3919
04:16:43,799 --> 04:16:49,079
of the Psychoanalytic Association of Freud's ideology of hysteria had

3920
04:16:49,120 --> 04:16:53,360
met with the Viennese psychiatrists. Farensi was ostracized by Freud

3921
04:16:53,360 --> 04:16:56,159
and his secretarian disciples, and his paper was never translated

3922
04:16:56,200 --> 04:17:01,159
into English for the International Journal of Psychoanalysis, as was customary.

3923
04:17:01,559 --> 04:17:08,319
He died a few years later a broken man. Section three,

3924
04:17:08,479 --> 04:17:12,680
The Hidden Fault of the Father. This story raises two questions. First,

3925
04:17:12,920 --> 04:17:15,120
what is it that made Freud change his mind in

3926
04:17:15,120 --> 04:17:17,920
the first place and made him shun ferencies work thirty

3927
04:17:18,000 --> 04:17:21,479
years later? Secondly, and more importantly, why was Freud's theory

3928
04:17:21,559 --> 04:17:25,559
so successful despite being long proven scientifically flawed and its

3929
04:17:25,639 --> 04:17:30,840
therapeutic value baseless. On the first question, Massan shares his

3930
04:17:30,920 --> 04:17:33,639
conviction that what Freud had uncovered in eighteen ninety six

3931
04:17:33,719 --> 04:17:36,920
that in many instances children are the victims of sexual

3932
04:17:37,399 --> 04:17:41,680
violence and abuse within their families, becomes such a liability

3933
04:17:41,680 --> 04:17:44,399
that he literally had to banish it from his consciousness.

3934
04:17:45,159 --> 04:17:48,040
This theory has been challenged, and Massan has been criticized

3935
04:17:48,040 --> 04:17:52,319
for exaggerating the negative reactions to Freud's seduction theory. All

3936
04:17:52,360 --> 04:17:54,559
that can be said with confidence is that his paper

3937
04:17:54,639 --> 04:17:57,600
didn't bring him the instant fame he expected.

3938
04:18:00,120 --> 04:18:02,600
Speaker 2: That's actually that's the first time I actually ever heard that.

3939
04:18:04,280 --> 04:18:07,200
I thought the only story I'd ever heard was that

3940
04:18:07,239 --> 04:18:10,840
he had presented this idea of sexual violence as the

3941
04:18:10,959 --> 04:18:16,600
precursor of psychological dysfunction, and that he was basically threatened

3942
04:18:16,639 --> 04:18:22,120
with losing his career for proposing something that was so

3943
04:18:23,440 --> 04:18:28,879
shocking to the senses of bourgeois European society. I guess

3944
04:18:28,920 --> 04:18:31,360
I would have to see, you know, I tried to

3945
04:18:31,399 --> 04:18:33,280
click that link there. I think that's a dead link.

3946
04:18:33,879 --> 04:18:36,280
So I don't know if you can actually find the

3947
04:18:36,319 --> 04:18:41,000
source that he's claiming, but it would be interesting to

3948
04:18:41,879 --> 04:18:48,840
find other accounts. Certainly, if he self censored out of

3949
04:18:48,879 --> 04:18:56,520
a sort of inability to leap frog his career, that

3950
04:18:56,559 --> 04:19:01,479
would be a lot more damning than simply he thought

3951
04:19:01,479 --> 04:19:03,399
that he was going to be shut out of the

3952
04:19:03,479 --> 04:19:08,040
discipline and out of you know, the academic system for

3953
04:19:08,159 --> 04:19:14,040
proposing something that was so like barbaric and shocking. That again,

3954
04:19:14,079 --> 04:19:16,719
that would also put a very different spin on because

3955
04:19:16,760 --> 04:19:19,959
Freud also the thing that's like you would not really

3956
04:19:20,040 --> 04:19:24,680
get this from just reading the Freudian ouvoir, so to speak.

3957
04:19:26,159 --> 04:19:32,600
He was intensely self conscious about his work. He was

3958
04:19:32,680 --> 04:19:38,559
intensely self conscious about the sort of the psychoanalysis as

3959
04:19:38,760 --> 04:19:44,959
a sort of universal system of interpretation, Like that was

3960
04:19:45,000 --> 04:19:48,879
one of his grand or ambitions. Was not just that

3961
04:19:48,920 --> 04:19:52,959
it would be a therapeutic intervention or you know, his

3962
04:19:53,040 --> 04:19:57,680
ambition wasn't just that he was advancing a science of

3963
04:19:58,040 --> 04:20:03,360
the human nervous system. He later again I invoked, like

3964
04:20:03,399 --> 04:20:06,879
from from Moses to Monotheism, he invoked his own system

3965
04:20:06,920 --> 04:20:09,360
as a as a as a as a medium for

3966
04:20:09,760 --> 04:20:15,559
literary criticism, for historical analysis, for sociology. So he thought

3967
04:20:15,719 --> 04:20:18,719
it was a way, a revolutionary way to look at everything,

3968
04:20:18,799 --> 04:20:22,000
not just the human psyche and not just medicine. So

3969
04:20:22,559 --> 04:20:24,840
on the one hand, he does have this reputation is

3970
04:20:24,920 --> 04:20:31,079
like an intentionally self conscious, sort of career minded person.

3971
04:20:31,479 --> 04:20:37,760
Even his even his relationship with Carl Jung, it was

3972
04:20:37,879 --> 04:20:42,440
to an extent a sort of opportunistic way to present

3973
04:20:43,040 --> 04:20:47,239
his ideas to gentile society by having them come through

3974
04:20:47,440 --> 04:20:52,159
the mouth of a gentile speaker. So I guess maybe

3975
04:20:52,159 --> 04:20:56,120
it's not a stretch to to argue that that he

3976
04:20:56,280 --> 04:20:59,600
self censored out of a frustration with the lack of

3977
04:21:00,079 --> 04:21:06,000
positive reception, but the common explanation going all the way

3978
04:21:06,000 --> 04:21:08,799
back to Stefan Malianews. Stefan Maliannu did a video about this,

3979
04:21:08,920 --> 04:21:12,520
like ten or fifteen years ago, that the reason he

3980
04:21:12,680 --> 04:21:17,000
pivoted from the seduction theory to this sort of if

3981
04:21:17,040 --> 04:21:21,040
you want to say, victim blaming account of mental illness,

3982
04:21:21,520 --> 04:21:25,520
was basically because he had been threatened by his peers

3983
04:21:26,120 --> 04:21:28,719
in the in the discipline. So I guess that's up

3984
04:21:28,760 --> 04:21:29,159
for debate.

3985
04:21:32,879 --> 04:21:36,079
Speaker 1: Masson takes other factors into account. He believes that Freud

3986
04:21:36,200 --> 04:21:40,879
was influenced by the wacky or what the hell is

3987
04:21:40,959 --> 04:21:49,079
that word Oderheinau knowologist William Fliss, unhappy inventor of the

3988
04:21:49,200 --> 04:21:53,559
nasal reflex neuroses, with whom Freud had developed a very

3989
04:21:53,639 --> 04:21:57,840
peculiar emotional bond. Incidentally, Fleiss's son would later write on

3990
04:21:58,079 --> 04:22:01,319
sexual abuse and hint of his own abuse by his father.

3991
04:22:02,239 --> 04:22:06,000
Massan is the editor of the unextrogated version of Freud's

3992
04:22:06,079 --> 04:22:10,040
letters to Flie. Freud destroyed Fleiss's letters, but failed to

3993
04:22:10,120 --> 04:22:13,520
have his own letters destroyed, which provide unique information on

3994
04:22:13,559 --> 04:22:18,040
the way Freud elaborated his theories. Yet, at the end

3995
04:22:18,079 --> 04:22:20,920
of the fascinating investigation, Massan and miss that the full

3996
04:22:21,040 --> 04:22:26,719
explanation for Freud's sudden conversion eludes him. Additional insight has

3997
04:22:26,719 --> 04:22:30,959
been supplied by two books published almost simultaneously nineteen seventy nine,

3998
04:22:31,399 --> 04:22:34,280
one in French and one in German, both translated in

3999
04:22:34,399 --> 04:22:38,959
English in nineteen eighty two, Marie Balmari Freud and the

4000
04:22:39,079 --> 04:22:42,159
Hidden Faults of the Father and Marianne Krohll Freud and

4001
04:22:42,319 --> 04:22:46,920
his father both draw extensively from Freud's letters to Fleiss,

4002
04:22:47,360 --> 04:22:50,680
which document how Freud was led to his theoretical about

4003
04:22:50,760 --> 04:22:55,520
face by his introspective self analysis. Balmari and Krohl point

4004
04:22:55,559 --> 04:22:58,520
out that Freud undertook this self analysis just after the

4005
04:22:58,600 --> 04:23:02,280
death of his father, Jacob. On November second, eighteen ninety six,

4006
04:23:02,360 --> 04:23:05,079
ten days after his father's death, Freud writes a flice

4007
04:23:05,479 --> 04:23:07,959
about a dream he had the night before his funeral,

4008
04:23:08,040 --> 04:23:10,879
in which appeared a sign saying you are requested to

4009
04:23:10,959 --> 04:23:14,079
close the eyes, which he interpreted as referring to one's

4010
04:23:14,159 --> 04:23:17,719
duty to the dead. Yet, on February eleventh, eighteen ninety six,

4011
04:23:17,799 --> 04:23:21,479
after mentioning that forced oral sex on children can result

4012
04:23:21,639 --> 04:23:25,840
in neurotic symptoms, he adds, ultimately my own father was

4013
04:23:25,920 --> 04:23:28,520
one of those perverts, and is responsible for the hystery

4014
04:23:28,600 --> 04:23:33,200
of my brother, all of whose symptoms are identifications, and

4015
04:23:33,319 --> 04:23:38,479
those of several younger sisters. The frequency of this circumstance

4016
04:23:38,559 --> 04:23:42,079
often makes me wonder. The following summer, he went through

4017
04:23:42,079 --> 04:23:44,920
a depressive episode and wrote on July seventh, I still

4018
04:23:45,000 --> 04:23:48,040
do not know what has been happening to me. Something

4019
04:23:48,079 --> 04:23:50,639
from the deepest depths of my own neurosis set itself

4020
04:23:50,719 --> 04:23:54,600
against any advance in the understanding of the neuroses, and

4021
04:23:54,760 --> 04:23:58,680
you have somehow been involved in it. Soon after September

4022
04:23:58,719 --> 04:24:01,239
twenty first, he announced to his friend, I want to

4023
04:24:01,319 --> 04:24:03,479
confide in you immediately the great secret that has been

4024
04:24:03,520 --> 04:24:06,040
slowly dawning on me in the last few months. I

4025
04:24:06,200 --> 04:24:10,159
no longer believe in my neurotica his seduction theory. He

4026
04:24:10,280 --> 04:24:13,159
gave his one explanation, the surprise that in all cases,

4027
04:24:13,239 --> 04:24:15,920
the father, not excluding my own, had to be accused

4028
04:24:15,959 --> 04:24:19,000
of being perverse. In the next letter, October third, he

4029
04:24:19,040 --> 04:24:22,639
wrote confidently that in the case of his own neuroses,

4030
04:24:22,719 --> 04:24:26,760
the old man plays no active part. Finally, October fifteenth,

4031
04:24:26,840 --> 04:24:30,799
he referred to the Oedipus story, quoting a single idea

4032
04:24:30,799 --> 04:24:33,239
of general value dawned on me. I have found in

4033
04:24:33,319 --> 04:24:36,520
my own case too, the phenomenon of being in love

4034
04:24:36,600 --> 04:24:39,200
with my mother and jealous of my father, and I

4035
04:24:39,360 --> 04:24:46,239
now consider it a universal event in early childhood. Balmari

4036
04:24:46,360 --> 04:24:50,479
and Krall independently build a strong case that Freud backed

4037
04:24:50,520 --> 04:24:53,040
off from a theory which tarnished the ideal image of

4038
04:24:53,120 --> 04:24:56,479
the father he was grieving. After his father's death, Freud

4039
04:24:56,520 --> 04:24:59,200
felt constrained by a mandate that he was unable to resist,

4040
04:24:59,280 --> 04:25:02,079
and hence dutiful son that he was took the guilt

4041
04:25:02,159 --> 04:25:05,639
upon his own shoulders. With help of his Oedipus theory,

4042
04:25:06,760 --> 04:25:11,559
Balmari and Krall bring in the equation a recent biographical

4043
04:25:11,639 --> 04:25:15,760
discovery of Jacob Freud's less than perfect behavior, the forgotten

4044
04:25:15,799 --> 04:25:20,360
second wife named Rebecca, who mysteriously disappears, possibly by suicide,

4045
04:25:20,639 --> 04:25:23,040
at the time of Jacob's marriage with his third wife,

4046
04:25:23,120 --> 04:25:27,280
the beautiful Amelia Nathanson, his half his age and already

4047
04:25:27,360 --> 04:25:30,239
pregnant of Sigmund. Of fact, Jacob tried to conceal by

4048
04:25:30,280 --> 04:25:34,360
falsifying Sigmund's state of birth. In light of post Freudian

4049
04:25:34,479 --> 04:25:39,520
developments in transgenerational depth psychology, it is possible that Freud

4050
04:25:39,600 --> 04:25:42,200
had from early age an intuitive sense of a hidden

4051
04:25:42,239 --> 04:25:45,159
fault to the father linked to his own identity, which

4052
04:25:45,799 --> 04:25:48,639
may have combined with memories of his father's sexual abuse

4053
04:25:48,719 --> 04:25:52,280
on himself and his brothers and sisters. During his self

4054
04:25:52,319 --> 04:25:54,479
analysis at the age of forty, the whole thing came

4055
04:25:54,559 --> 04:25:57,280
knocking at the door of his consciousness, but he finally

4056
04:25:57,319 --> 04:25:59,959
surrenders to the self conscious imperative to close the eye

4057
04:26:00,559 --> 04:26:02,959
to cover up the menacing truth of his father's faults.

4058
04:26:03,559 --> 04:26:08,000
Freud invents of the Oedipus complex, changing children charging children

4059
04:26:08,079 --> 04:26:17,639
themselves as polymorphous perversion, while Mary points out that in

4060
04:26:17,799 --> 04:26:20,680
his personal identification with his hero Oedipus, who solved the

4061
04:26:20,760 --> 04:26:24,600
riddle of the Sphinx, Freud truncated the myth. According to

4062
04:26:24,760 --> 04:26:30,440
Greek tragedians, Oedipus's father, Lais, was cursed by the gods

4063
04:26:30,479 --> 04:26:34,319
for seducing a young teenage boy and leading to his suicide. Then,

4064
04:26:34,440 --> 04:26:37,239
frightened by the oracle's prophecy that he would be killed

4065
04:26:37,280 --> 04:26:40,680
by his own son if he conceived one, conceived one,

4066
04:26:41,159 --> 04:26:44,719
Lais had his newborn son abandoned in the forest ankles

4067
04:26:44,799 --> 04:26:47,840
pierced by the middle by the middle with iron spikes,

4068
04:26:48,319 --> 04:26:53,399
Euripides the Phoenician maidens. Thus, in the complete myth Oedipus,

4069
04:26:54,040 --> 04:26:56,920
Oedipus's predestination to kill his father and marry his mother

4070
04:26:57,040 --> 04:26:59,479
is not determined by his own impulses, but by the

4071
04:26:59,520 --> 04:27:03,239
faults of his own father. For Balmari, Freud's ignorance of

4072
04:27:03,319 --> 04:27:05,600
this part of the myth reveals and symbolizes his own

4073
04:27:05,680 --> 04:27:08,840
blind spot, his failure to discover the secret guilts of

4074
04:27:08,920 --> 04:27:11,799
the father, both of his own father and by consequence,

4075
04:27:11,840 --> 04:27:23,440
the fathers of his neurotic and hysterical patience. Got anything there, No, no, no,

4076
04:27:23,559 --> 04:27:26,639
I'm just following them. Let's keep going, All right, here

4077
04:27:26,719 --> 04:27:32,000
we go, Part four, The dark emotional powers of Jewishness.

4078
04:27:33,440 --> 04:27:37,920
Neither Massan nor BALMII deal with the Jewish aspect of

4079
04:27:37,959 --> 04:27:41,799
this issue. Marion Kroll hints that the father's mandates to

4080
04:27:41,840 --> 04:27:44,680
close the eyes was a question of filial piety, on

4081
04:27:44,799 --> 04:27:48,760
which ultimately the entire Jewish tradition is based, but although

4082
04:27:48,840 --> 04:27:52,879
Jewish herself, she does not insist on that aspect. For

4083
04:27:52,920 --> 04:27:56,440
an interesting reflection on the Jewish hidden background of the

4084
04:27:56,479 --> 04:27:59,479
Oedipus complex, we can turn to the very stimulating Book

4085
04:28:00,120 --> 04:28:03,920
of John Murray Cutahee The Ordeal of Civility. The author

4086
04:28:03,959 --> 04:28:07,840
points out that Freud had been fascinated by Sophocles Sophocles's

4087
04:28:07,920 --> 04:28:11,159
play Oedipus Rex from his adolescence. When he saw it

4088
04:28:11,280 --> 04:28:13,879
played in eighteen eighty five, it made again a deep

4089
04:28:13,920 --> 04:28:17,000
and mysterious impression on him. Twelve years later he wrote

4090
04:28:17,000 --> 04:28:20,200
to Flices that he found, with his new theory of

4091
04:28:20,360 --> 04:28:24,799
universal repressed wishes of incest and parricide, the explanation for

4092
04:28:25,079 --> 04:28:28,799
the gripping power of Oedipus Rex. In other words, comments Cuta,

4093
04:28:28,840 --> 04:28:32,360
he Freud proposes a theory to explain the play's power

4094
04:28:32,479 --> 04:28:35,760
over him and to make intelligible why he should identify

4095
04:28:35,840 --> 04:28:39,360
so deeply with its hero Oedipus. It is in the

4096
04:28:39,440 --> 04:28:41,479
course of that effort that the core of the theory

4097
04:28:41,559 --> 04:28:47,559
of psychoanalysis is born. But then cute, he suggests that,

4098
04:28:50,280 --> 04:28:52,680
but then cute. He suggests that Freud failed to see

4099
04:28:52,719 --> 04:28:56,120
the real origin of his fascination with Oedipus Rex. What

4100
04:28:56,239 --> 04:28:58,559
had resonated deeply in him from the time he first

4101
04:28:58,600 --> 04:29:00,959
read Oedipus Rex was not so much the general plot

4102
04:29:01,000 --> 04:29:03,200
of the play, the hero killing his father and marrying

4103
04:29:03,239 --> 04:29:06,360
his mother as the circumstances in which Oedipus killed his father.

4104
04:29:06,639 --> 04:29:09,879
Coming down a narrow road, Oedipus was rudely ordered to

4105
04:29:10,000 --> 04:29:12,559
step aside by the herald of the king, then was

4106
04:29:12,600 --> 04:29:15,719
struck on the head by the king himself. Enraged, Oedipus

4107
04:29:15,799 --> 04:29:17,879
slew the king, his herald and the rest of his

4108
04:29:18,159 --> 04:29:22,319
retinue except one. This story, not acted but narrated in

4109
04:29:22,399 --> 04:29:25,440
the play, bears an uncanny resemblance with another story that

4110
04:29:25,520 --> 04:29:28,399
had made a lasting impression on Freud a few years earlier.

4111
04:29:29,120 --> 04:29:33,319
As he explained in the Interpretation of Dreams, this is

4112
04:29:33,399 --> 04:29:35,719
the story of a father. This is a story that

4113
04:29:35,840 --> 04:29:39,159
his father, a stead old Jew from Morovia, where Sigmund

4114
04:29:39,239 --> 04:29:44,479
was born. Moravia, where Sigmund was born, had told him

4115
04:29:44,760 --> 04:29:48,639
when he was ten or twelve years old, quoting to

4116
04:29:48,760 --> 04:29:50,920
show how much better things were now than they had

4117
04:29:50,959 --> 04:29:53,639
been in his days. When I was a young man,

4118
04:29:53,879 --> 04:29:56,239
he said, I went for a walk one Saturday in

4119
04:29:56,319 --> 04:29:58,760
the streets to your birthplace. I was well dressed and

4120
04:29:58,879 --> 04:30:01,120
had a new kap on my head. A Christian came

4121
04:30:01,200 --> 04:30:03,040
up to me and with a single blow, knocked off

4122
04:30:03,120 --> 04:30:05,360
my cap into the mud and shouted, jew, get off

4123
04:30:05,399 --> 04:30:08,879
the pavement. And what did you do? I asked, I

4124
04:30:08,959 --> 04:30:11,120
went into the roadway and picked up my cap. Was

4125
04:30:11,159 --> 04:30:15,200
his quiet reply that struck me as unheeric conduct than

4126
04:30:15,239 --> 04:30:17,319
the part of the big strong man who was holding

4127
04:30:17,360 --> 04:30:20,840
a little boy by the hand. I contrasted this situation

4128
04:30:21,040 --> 04:30:24,559
with another which befitted my feelings better, the scene in

4129
04:30:24,600 --> 04:30:29,600
which Hannibal's father, hamilkar Barka made his boy swear before

4130
04:30:29,680 --> 04:30:33,040
the household altered to take vengeance on the Romans. Ever

4131
04:30:33,159 --> 04:30:36,200
since that time, Hannibal has had a place in my fantasies.

4132
04:30:38,719 --> 04:30:42,719
Freud cut he argues, had experienced shame, had experienced shame

4133
04:30:42,760 --> 04:30:44,840
of his father, and to be ashamed of a father

4134
04:30:45,120 --> 04:30:49,879
is a kind of moral parricide. Quoting Freud, presumably experienced

4135
04:30:49,920 --> 04:30:52,159
not only this rage and shame, but guilt about the

4136
04:30:52,239 --> 04:30:56,399
rage and shame. He quickly censored these unacceptable feelings. Unacceptable

4137
04:30:56,479 --> 04:31:00,479
to a dutiful son, ostensibly proud of his father, he

4138
04:31:00,639 --> 04:31:04,559
repressed them. Years later, he encounters Sophocle's tragedy and it

4139
04:31:04,680 --> 04:31:11,120
lays a spell on him. Still later, after his father's death,

4140
04:31:11,120 --> 04:31:14,280
he rationalized the spell with a universal theory that discharged

4141
04:31:14,360 --> 04:31:17,840
him from further inquiry into his own family story. But

4142
04:31:18,520 --> 04:31:22,639
the idea fix which that Oedipus was to become for

4143
04:31:22,879 --> 04:31:26,399
Freud cut he maintains, hinges on a small detail, small

4144
04:31:26,440 --> 04:31:29,159
but structurally indispensable of the action of the story that

4145
04:31:29,319 --> 04:31:32,479
Freud never mentions in all the countless times he retells

4146
04:31:32,559 --> 04:31:35,920
the legend a social insult, a discourtesy on the road

4147
04:31:36,000 --> 04:31:39,600
stemming from someone in a position of social superiority, King

4148
04:31:39,719 --> 04:31:43,600
Laius to the unknown wayfarer Oedipus, just as a Christian

4149
04:31:43,680 --> 04:31:47,399
in Freiburg who forced Jacob Freud into the gutter. According

4150
04:31:47,399 --> 04:31:50,959
to kutahe the supposedly universal Oedipus complex that Freud thought

4151
04:31:51,000 --> 04:31:55,319
he discovered was in reality the veil of characteristically was

4152
04:31:55,399 --> 04:31:59,840
the veil of a characteristically Jewish complex of his time.

4153
04:32:02,920 --> 04:32:10,520
Speaker 2: Again over, yeah, I was just gonna say, because in

4154
04:32:10,639 --> 04:32:14,760
his book Totem and Taboo, Freud is basically trying to

4155
04:32:15,280 --> 04:32:21,120
again create like an originary scene for how societies sort

4156
04:32:21,120 --> 04:32:27,399
of organize themselves. And the basic idea is this idea,

4157
04:32:27,520 --> 04:32:31,559
the myth of the primal Horde, which, to put it really,

4158
04:32:31,639 --> 04:32:38,000
really simplistically is describes this symbolic murder of the father

4159
04:32:38,399 --> 04:32:44,399
by the sons, And I'm just I've never looked at

4160
04:32:45,280 --> 04:32:47,520
the because it's been like many, many, many years since

4161
04:32:47,559 --> 04:32:50,280
I read some of these books, certainly before I ever

4162
04:32:50,440 --> 04:32:54,520
took on like this kind of framework to think about them.

4163
04:32:55,520 --> 04:32:58,280
I'm sitting here just wondering now with the implications of

4164
04:32:59,280 --> 04:33:05,680
his anti pological explanation would be, you know, in the

4165
04:33:05,799 --> 04:33:11,000
context of this Jewish persecution, the weakness of his own father,

4166
04:33:13,520 --> 04:33:17,159
the way his own parental sort of by the way

4167
04:33:17,200 --> 04:33:20,159
that id fix means fetish, so the way his own

4168
04:33:20,240 --> 04:33:26,400
sort of fetishized parental relations are informing his his hys theorizing.

4169
04:33:26,720 --> 04:33:28,639
I'm gonna mallel that one a little bit more, but yeah,

4170
04:33:28,680 --> 04:33:28,880
you can.

4171
04:33:29,000 --> 04:33:34,439
Speaker 1: You can continue, even if we judge that I already

4172
04:33:34,439 --> 04:33:36,880
read that one, or did I.

4173
04:33:39,119 --> 04:33:39,759
Speaker 2: I don't think he did.

4174
04:33:39,919 --> 04:33:44,599
Speaker 1: Okay, even if we I'm sorry, you know, that's yeah,

4175
04:33:44,639 --> 04:33:48,159
Even if we judge, yeah, even if we judge that

4176
04:33:48,479 --> 04:33:51,799
that thesis overstrained, it is questionable how the fantasies with

4177
04:33:51,959 --> 04:33:55,240
pH of avenging and killing the father could merge. We

4178
04:33:55,319 --> 04:33:57,400
can appreciate how kind of he draws attention to the

4179
04:33:57,439 --> 04:34:00,319
fact that Freud's father, the father whom he felt held

4180
04:34:00,360 --> 04:34:04,520
to exculpate, but toward whom he nevertheless experienced a murder.

4181
04:34:04,639 --> 04:34:08,560
Wish was a Jewish father recently immigrated from Yiddish Land

4182
04:34:08,880 --> 04:34:14,799
into the heart of European civilization. Freud's disciple and first biographer,

4183
04:34:14,919 --> 04:34:17,959
Ernest Jones remarks that Freud felt himself to be Jewish

4184
04:34:18,040 --> 04:34:20,240
to the core, and evidently it met a great deal

4185
04:34:20,360 --> 04:34:25,000
to him. Books dealing specifically with Freud's Jewishness, such as

4186
04:34:26,000 --> 04:34:30,200
Moishe gracer Dual Allegiance Freud as a Modern Jew Sunny

4187
04:34:30,200 --> 04:34:32,959
Press nineteen ninety four, can rely on several statements made

4188
04:34:32,959 --> 04:34:37,159
by Freud himself, either in private correspondence or in Jewish environment.

4189
04:34:37,959 --> 04:34:41,200
In the preface for the Hebrew translation of Totem and Taboo,

4190
04:34:41,279 --> 04:34:45,520
for example, asking himself rhetorically, what is Jewish in his work?

4191
04:34:45,639 --> 04:34:49,240
Freud answered, A very great deal and probably its very essence.

4192
04:34:49,759 --> 04:34:52,720
In a speech prepared for delivery at the Benet Breath

4193
04:34:52,799 --> 04:34:55,479
Lodge in Vienna in nineteen twenty six, Freud explained his

4194
04:34:55,599 --> 04:34:59,080
motivation for joining thirty years earlier in eighteen ninety seven.

4195
04:35:01,159 --> 04:35:05,119
Whenever I have experienced feelings of national exultation, I've tried

4196
04:35:05,159 --> 04:35:07,959
to suppress them as disastrous and unfair, frightened by the

4197
04:35:08,040 --> 04:35:11,200
warning example of those nations among which we Jews live,

4198
04:35:12,000 --> 04:35:15,479
but there remained enough to make the attraction of Judaism

4199
04:35:15,560 --> 04:35:19,119
and the Jews irresistible. Many dark emotional powers all the

4200
04:35:19,200 --> 04:35:22,599
stronger the less they could be expressed in words, as

4201
04:35:22,639 --> 04:35:25,919
well as the clear consciousness of an inner identity, the

4202
04:35:25,959 --> 04:35:30,200
familiarity of the same psychological structure. So I became one

4203
04:35:30,240 --> 04:35:35,000
of you. The statement is actually excellent.

4204
04:35:36,520 --> 04:35:38,040
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say that sounds very much like

4205
04:35:38,119 --> 04:35:43,799
the Ordeal of Civility hypothesis right there, that trying to

4206
04:35:44,360 --> 04:35:48,720
become stepping out of the schedtle, stepping out of their

4207
04:35:48,799 --> 04:35:54,520
sort of tight knit, borderline, incestuous little world, and suddenly

4208
04:35:54,959 --> 04:35:59,959
they're confronted with, you know, the technological modernity of European societ.

4209
04:36:02,520 --> 04:36:04,439
I don't know if this is kind of his argument,

4210
04:36:04,479 --> 04:36:06,799
because I've actually never read The Ordeal of Civility, But

4211
04:36:06,919 --> 04:36:09,639
that could if we wanted to take a more cynical

4212
04:36:09,680 --> 04:36:15,119
approach to to explaining why he has gone through these

4213
04:36:15,200 --> 04:36:19,279
changes in his psychological theory. I mean, it could be

4214
04:36:19,439 --> 04:36:22,400
that he wanted to in the same way he wanted

4215
04:36:22,400 --> 04:36:24,880
to absolve his father. He also wanted to absolve his

4216
04:36:25,040 --> 04:36:30,000
people of their own dysfunction, their ugliness, the violence that

4217
04:36:30,119 --> 04:36:38,279
their community sort of harbors. That in bringing bringing Jewish

4218
04:36:38,599 --> 04:36:46,000
society to gentile society, he wanted to sort of make

4219
04:36:46,080 --> 04:36:50,159
their dysfunction like not a particular dysfunction. I mean, I

4220
04:36:50,200 --> 04:36:53,840
don't know if is he would we say that his theorizing,

4221
04:36:54,119 --> 04:36:56,919
the universalizing of his theory is a way to whitewash,

4222
04:36:57,439 --> 04:37:01,479
particularly particularly Jewish dysfunction. Is it a way to help

4223
04:37:01,680 --> 04:37:06,000
integrate Jews into gentile society by saying, well, all this

4224
04:37:06,959 --> 04:37:13,880
expressly Jewish dysfunction is actually sort of a universal human tendency.

4225
04:37:14,759 --> 04:37:17,319
I don't know, but that sentence, so I became one

4226
04:37:17,400 --> 04:37:20,360
of you is very telling to me.

4227
04:37:23,439 --> 04:37:25,479
Speaker 1: Well, what I think is interesting here is that he

4228
04:37:25,599 --> 04:37:28,599
says that he joined the Bena Brith in eighteen ninety seven,

4229
04:37:28,720 --> 04:37:31,799
which is I believe they says the year his father died.

4230
04:37:34,080 --> 04:37:38,000
I believe it says that earlier in the article. So

4231
04:37:38,400 --> 04:37:41,880
he's it seems like if he's joining the Bene Breath

4232
04:37:41,919 --> 04:37:44,880
at that point, he's embracing his Judaism as his father

4233
04:37:45,119 --> 04:37:49,680
is passing, and I don't know what his dad dies

4234
04:37:49,759 --> 04:37:56,159
on November two, eighteen ninety six or ten days before that,

4235
04:37:56,680 --> 04:37:59,000
and then the next year he joins the ben a breath,

4236
04:37:59,080 --> 04:38:04,599
which is I assume to be around, be around other Jews,

4237
04:38:04,919 --> 04:38:09,799
or even to find a replace his father in some

4238
04:38:09,959 --> 04:38:13,520
way by finding somebody who you know, in a leadership

4239
04:38:13,599 --> 04:38:16,919
role in Judaism. I don't know, just there as yeah.

4240
04:38:19,759 --> 04:38:22,240
The statement is an excellent illustration of what cut he

4241
04:38:22,400 --> 04:38:25,479
calls the ordeal of civility, The struggle of every Jew

4242
04:38:25,520 --> 04:38:28,400
who wishes to assimilate yet feels unable to overcome the

4243
04:38:28,520 --> 04:38:32,639
dark emotional powers of his ancestral Jewishness, with its implicit

4244
04:38:32,720 --> 04:38:36,520
imperative not to assimilate. Jewishness has much to do with

4245
04:38:36,680 --> 04:38:43,080
what Ivan Menagi calls those invisible loyalties. They combined a

4246
04:38:43,159 --> 04:38:47,479
person to his ancestors by an irresistible system of values, obligations,

4247
04:38:47,599 --> 04:38:51,720
and debts. The question is to what extent freud psychoanalytical

4248
04:38:51,880 --> 04:38:55,000
theory is the result of Freud's surrender to those dark

4249
04:38:55,119 --> 04:39:00,479
emotional to those dark emotional powers. We must fikee Freud

4250
04:39:00,560 --> 04:39:03,799
seriously when he tells us in the Interpretation of Dreams

4251
04:39:03,880 --> 04:39:06,959
that his own Jewishness took the form of an identification

4252
04:39:07,119 --> 04:39:11,119
with Hannibal and the fantasy of taking vengeance on the Romans.

4253
04:39:11,799 --> 04:39:15,319
He went on to say, quoting I myself had walked

4254
04:39:15,360 --> 04:39:18,560
in Hannibal's footsteps. Hannibal, with whom I had achieved this

4255
04:39:18,720 --> 04:39:21,720
point of similarity, had been my favorite hero during my

4256
04:39:21,840 --> 04:39:25,240
years at the Gymnasium. Moreover, when I finally came to

4257
04:39:25,360 --> 04:39:28,639
realize the consequences of belonging to an alien race and

4258
04:39:28,840 --> 04:39:32,080
was forced by the anti Semitic feeling among my classmates

4259
04:39:32,119 --> 04:39:34,759
to take a definite stand, the figure of the Semitic

4260
04:39:35,000 --> 04:39:39,880
commander assumed still greater proportions in my imagination. Hannibal and

4261
04:39:40,000 --> 04:39:42,720
Rome symbolized in my youthful eyes to struggle between the

4262
04:39:42,799 --> 04:39:45,759
tenacity of the Jews and the organization of the Catholic Church.

4263
04:39:46,479 --> 04:39:50,159
The significance for our emotional life which the Antisemitic movement

4264
04:39:50,240 --> 04:39:53,080
has since assumed, helped to fix the thoughts and impressions

4265
04:39:53,119 --> 04:39:55,919
of those early days. Thus, the desire to go to

4266
04:39:56,119 --> 04:39:59,759
Rome has in my dream life become the mask and

4267
04:40:00,000 --> 04:40:03,360
bimble for a number of warmly cherished wishes, for whose

4268
04:40:03,439 --> 04:40:06,560
realization one had to work with the tenacity and single

4269
04:40:06,639 --> 04:40:10,840
mindedness of the Punic general. Though their fulfillment at times

4270
04:40:10,919 --> 04:40:14,400
seemed as remote as Hannibal's lifelong wish to enter Rome.

4271
04:40:16,319 --> 04:40:19,200
The significance of this public confession, printed in eighteen ninety

4272
04:40:19,240 --> 04:40:21,400
nine for all the world to read, cannot be overstated.

4273
04:40:22,000 --> 04:40:24,520
Here Freud names as a driving force for his life

4274
04:40:24,599 --> 04:40:27,840
the fantasy of entering Rome, the Christian world and destroying

4275
04:40:27,880 --> 04:40:32,680
it to avenge the Phoenicians the Jews. If Freud was

4276
04:40:32,720 --> 04:40:35,799
deeply influenced by his Jewish background, so were the other

4277
04:40:36,080 --> 04:40:40,000
founding members of the Psychoanalytical movement. Dennis Klein writes in

4278
04:40:40,159 --> 04:40:44,560
Jewish Origins of the Psychoanalytical Movement, quoting from its beginning

4279
04:40:44,599 --> 04:40:46,919
in nineteen oh two to nineteen oh six, all seventeen

4280
04:40:46,959 --> 04:40:50,040
members were Jewish. The full significance of this number lies

4281
04:40:50,119 --> 04:40:53,759
again in the way they viewed themselves. For the analysts

4282
04:40:53,799 --> 04:40:57,119
were aware of their Jewishness and frequently maintained the sense

4283
04:40:57,159 --> 04:41:01,000
of Jewish purpose and solidarity. This feeling of positive Jewish

4284
04:41:01,119 --> 04:41:04,319
pride formed the matrix of the movement in the psychoanalytical

4285
04:41:04,479 --> 04:41:07,959
circle as a spirits are renewed independence. It tightened the

4286
04:41:08,000 --> 04:41:10,959
bond among the members and powered their self image of

4287
04:41:11,040 --> 04:41:17,240
a redemptive elite The exception is Carl Jung, whom Freud

4288
04:41:17,400 --> 04:41:21,560
named president of the International psycho Analytical Association in nineteen ten,

4289
04:41:22,000 --> 04:41:25,240
precisely is to deflect the reproach that psychoanalysis was a

4290
04:41:25,279 --> 04:41:29,319
Jewish science. Interestingly, Jung is the only member who never

4291
04:41:29,400 --> 04:41:34,319
subscribed to Freud's theory of infantile sexuality. In response to

4292
04:41:34,360 --> 04:41:37,159
a letter by Karl Abraham, who complained that Jung seems

4293
04:41:37,200 --> 04:41:41,720
to be reverting to his former spiritualistic inclinations, Freud explained,

4294
04:41:41,840 --> 04:41:44,840
it is really easier for you than it is for

4295
04:41:45,000 --> 04:41:48,720
Jung to follow my ideas, for you stand nearer to

4296
04:41:48,840 --> 04:41:54,040
my intellectual constitution because of racial kinship. Freud asked Abraham

4297
04:41:54,159 --> 04:41:57,240
not to antagonize Jung because it was only by his

4298
04:41:57,360 --> 04:42:00,319
appearance on the scene a psychoanalysis escaped the danger of

4299
04:42:00,400 --> 04:42:06,919
becoming a Jewish national affair. In contrast to Young, Abraham

4300
04:42:07,279 --> 04:42:09,799
was the most zealous supporter of Freud's theory of infantile

4301
04:42:09,919 --> 04:42:13,439
sexuality in the history of the socho analytical movement. In

4302
04:42:13,479 --> 04:42:15,959
nineteen nineteen, Freud wrote that the last word in the

4303
04:42:16,040 --> 04:42:20,720
question of traumatic etiology was later on said by Abraham

4304
04:42:21,159 --> 04:42:24,400
when he drew attention to the fact that just the

4305
04:42:24,479 --> 04:42:28,040
peculiar nature of a child's sexual constitution enables it to

4306
04:42:28,119 --> 04:42:31,759
provoke sexual experiences of a peculiar kind, that is to say,

4307
04:42:32,040 --> 04:42:37,200
traumas self inflicted traumas, so to speak. Freud was referring

4308
04:42:37,240 --> 04:42:40,319
to a nineteen oh seventeen paper by Abraham, the experiencing

4309
04:42:40,360 --> 04:42:43,840
of sexual trauma as a form of sexual activity. It

4310
04:42:43,919 --> 04:42:46,799
is perhaps significant that Abraham, son of an Orthodox rabbi,

4311
04:42:47,000 --> 04:42:50,919
was also the most ethnocentric of Freud's disciples. He wrote

4312
04:42:50,959 --> 04:42:57,520
in nineteen thirteen an essay on neurotic exogamy, diagnosing Jewish

4313
04:42:57,599 --> 04:43:00,200
men who say they could never marry a Jewish us

4314
04:43:00,279 --> 04:43:04,400
with a neurosis resulting from disappointed incestuous love.

4315
04:43:07,759 --> 04:43:13,639
Speaker 2: I wondered, Yeah, not not to interrupt too much, I

4316
04:43:13,680 --> 04:43:16,520
always wondered why. I mean, because that that basically Jung's

4317
04:43:16,560 --> 04:43:22,119
rejection of the seduction theory, really his rejection of Freud's

4318
04:43:22,360 --> 04:43:25,279
sort of like, if you want to say, fixation on

4319
04:43:26,400 --> 04:43:30,840
child's childhood sexuality, was the wedge that drove them apart.

4320
04:43:31,479 --> 04:43:35,880
And the further that uh as that as that that

4321
04:43:36,040 --> 04:43:41,040
sort of disagreement became more pronounced than Freud started to

4322
04:43:42,400 --> 04:43:46,599
more aggressively attack Carl Jung privately and publicly, even taking

4323
04:43:46,639 --> 04:43:49,479
out full page of newspaper ads saying that he was

4324
04:43:52,200 --> 04:43:56,599
basically undermining him in his career. I've always wondered why

4325
04:43:57,400 --> 04:44:03,400
Jung didn't take up that that explanation of Freud's and

4326
04:44:03,759 --> 04:44:06,680
I just wonder if that speaks to like a fundamentally

4327
04:44:06,919 --> 04:44:11,360
different sort of I don't know, if you want to

4328
04:44:11,439 --> 04:44:15,319
say just cultural hygiene between gentiles and Jews, that it's

4329
04:44:15,560 --> 04:44:21,680
like less credulous to like a gentile of well upbringing

4330
04:44:22,000 --> 04:44:26,840
to believe that there's rampant sexual violence going on.

4331
04:44:27,040 --> 04:44:27,680
Speaker 1: I don't know.

4332
04:44:28,159 --> 04:44:33,240
Speaker 2: Jung was famously sort of sort of had his own

4333
04:44:33,479 --> 04:44:38,360
sexual hang ups, or maybe not hang ups per se,

4334
04:44:38,520 --> 04:44:46,880
but we'll put it this way. He brought pleasure into

4335
04:44:47,000 --> 04:44:50,720
his private practice quite a bit. In fact, Freud chastised

4336
04:44:50,759 --> 04:44:56,400
him for romancing his his patience, and Carl Jung would even,

4337
04:44:56,599 --> 04:45:01,319
like when he was giving speaking engagements, he would travel

4338
04:45:01,400 --> 04:45:04,159
with his wife and his family and his mistress, so

4339
04:45:04,279 --> 04:45:07,880
like he had his own sort of sexual I guess

4340
04:45:07,919 --> 04:45:10,840
if you want to say sexual identity related issues. But

4341
04:45:10,880 --> 04:45:15,400
it was never clear to me why why he took

4342
04:45:15,520 --> 04:45:19,400
such a conflict with Freud on that point. I mean,

4343
04:45:21,439 --> 04:45:25,680
I don't know, just wondering out that. Well, here's a

4344
04:45:25,759 --> 04:45:27,279
question for you, and I don't know if you know

4345
04:45:27,479 --> 04:45:30,520
this or not. You know, basically the beginning of this

4346
04:45:30,720 --> 04:45:34,240
and through the beginning, it seems to imply that there

4347
04:45:34,400 --> 04:45:39,840
may have been a problem with parents, fathers molesting their

4348
04:45:40,479 --> 04:45:44,040
children in the Jewish community, and that it still happens

4349
04:45:44,319 --> 04:45:45,240
through today.

4350
04:45:46,880 --> 04:45:52,439
Speaker 1: Back then. Do you know how do you know how

4351
04:45:53,840 --> 04:45:56,959
was that just common? Was that just something that was

4352
04:45:57,919 --> 04:46:02,000
you know, was done by more than just Jews. There

4353
04:46:02,040 --> 04:46:03,799
were a lot there were a lot of cultures that

4354
04:46:03,959 --> 04:46:04,520
engaged in that.

4355
04:46:06,880 --> 04:46:10,759
Speaker 2: I certainly couldn't point to like empirical proof of that.

4356
04:46:11,080 --> 04:46:17,959
I mean, I think it's probably not just a problem

4357
04:46:18,119 --> 04:46:21,599
in like the Jewish community, but I mean the type

4358
04:46:21,599 --> 04:46:24,119
of dysfunction that Carl Jung, I mean, there was not

4359
04:46:24,279 --> 04:46:28,159
a lack of sort of friction between him and his father,

4360
04:46:28,759 --> 04:46:33,720
but it was of an entirely different nature. Jung's father,

4361
04:46:34,040 --> 04:46:37,560
I think was I don't remember. I don't think he

4362
04:46:37,680 --> 04:46:39,479
killed himself, but he was sort of like a faith

4363
04:46:39,560 --> 04:46:42,680
he was a pastor, but he also had his own

4364
04:46:45,360 --> 04:46:53,439
sort of personality conflicts. Yeah, I don't think I have

4365
04:46:53,479 --> 04:46:55,840
an answer to that. Question. I don't think it's a

4366
04:46:56,439 --> 04:46:59,200
strictly Jewish phenomenon. I think what is unique to the

4367
04:46:59,279 --> 04:47:02,880
Jewish community, and it clearly has been for a long time,

4368
04:47:03,159 --> 04:47:08,279
is like circumcision is effectively part of their tradition and

4369
04:47:08,400 --> 04:47:10,240
has been for a very long time. And do we

4370
04:47:10,319 --> 04:47:13,560
have to get specific into a kind of, you know,

4371
04:47:16,040 --> 04:47:19,880
all overly narrow idea that that sexual violence. I mean

4372
04:47:19,919 --> 04:47:23,000
that to me, circumcision is a kind of sexual violence.

4373
04:47:24,040 --> 04:47:29,759
The rabbi cleaning the aftermath of that with his mouth.

4374
04:47:29,840 --> 04:47:32,799
This is basically a violation, whether we want to talk

4375
04:47:32,919 --> 04:47:35,360
in more overt terms or in a sort of to

4376
04:47:35,479 --> 04:47:41,479
borrow Freudian word, a sort of sublimated religious excuse for

4377
04:47:41,680 --> 04:47:46,919
engaging in the same kind of territorial behavior. It's no

4378
04:47:47,000 --> 04:47:49,360
matter what way you want to look at it, there's

4379
04:47:49,400 --> 04:47:54,439
something intrinsic to their community that produces that sort of dysfunction.

4380
04:47:55,159 --> 04:47:58,240
But I mean, I don't think it's if we just

4381
04:47:58,360 --> 04:48:03,279
wanted to talk about the problem of incest more generally,

4382
04:48:03,520 --> 04:48:10,240
or like familial sexual violence more generally. I think is

4383
04:48:10,279 --> 04:48:14,439
out there, what's it? What's kind of I did my

4384
04:48:14,599 --> 04:48:18,799
own show on my substack ebl on the work of

4385
04:48:18,880 --> 04:48:22,360
George Patai recently, and one of the questions that we

4386
04:48:22,479 --> 04:48:25,919
had sort of raised. George Pattai was a French well,

4387
04:48:25,959 --> 04:48:29,520
he was a seminary student, and then he became sort

4388
04:48:29,560 --> 04:48:34,360
of a sort of your stereotypical kind of French pervert philosopher,

4389
04:48:35,240 --> 04:48:37,959
and he carried on this tradition that you see a

4390
04:48:38,000 --> 04:48:43,880
lot during Freud's time and after, where there's this extreme

4391
04:48:45,159 --> 04:48:52,759
preoccupation with incest as a sort of foundational anthropological, psychological

4392
04:48:52,880 --> 04:48:56,560
question to be answered about human nature. And some of

4393
04:48:56,599 --> 04:49:00,279
the most obvious examples of intellectuals who approached that question

4394
04:49:00,439 --> 04:49:05,119
were Freud, but also Levi Strauss, who was also Jewish,

4395
04:49:05,439 --> 04:49:07,560
and there were a number of Jewish intellectuals at that

4396
04:49:07,680 --> 04:49:12,720
time who in their social theorizing were wondering about the

4397
04:49:12,880 --> 04:49:16,720
foundational rule incest place what it tells us about human nature.

4398
04:49:17,159 --> 04:49:19,799
And they weren't all Jews. He did that. George Batie

4399
04:49:20,000 --> 04:49:22,840
was not Jewish, but he was also very heavily influenced

4400
04:49:22,840 --> 04:49:27,119
by Levi Strauss. And you know, that to me is

4401
04:49:27,200 --> 04:49:31,520
like sort of an indication that there's an overrepresentation of

4402
04:49:31,680 --> 04:49:34,680
this problem in that community. But I don't think by

4403
04:49:34,720 --> 04:49:38,759
any stretch of the imagination they were the only ones.

4404
04:49:38,639 --> 04:49:44,720
Speaker 1: To uniquely deal with that. Okay, a new section denial

4405
04:49:44,880 --> 04:49:50,439
projection inversion. I suggest that Freud's abandon of the seduction

4406
04:49:50,599 --> 04:49:53,200
theory and it's cover up by the Oedips complex were

4407
04:49:53,240 --> 04:49:57,319
motivated half unconsciously, at least by Freud's loyalty not only

4408
04:49:57,400 --> 04:50:00,639
to his father but to his Jewish community. In the

4409
04:50:00,720 --> 04:50:04,520
eighteen nineties, Freud's clientele was drawn exclusively from the Jewish

4410
04:50:04,560 --> 04:50:07,959
middle class. Imagine if Freud's seduction theory had earned him

4411
04:50:08,000 --> 04:50:11,959
the recognition he craved for. Although he disguised the identity

4412
04:50:12,000 --> 04:50:14,439
of his patients and his case studies, it would not

4413
04:50:14,560 --> 04:50:17,479
have been long before his work was attacked not just

4414
04:50:17,599 --> 04:50:20,840
as Jewish science, but as evidence of the depravity of

4415
04:50:20,919 --> 04:50:28,279
Jewish mores. However, I don't think Freud's consciousness. I don't

4416
04:50:28,279 --> 04:50:32,000
think Freud reasoned consciously in this manner. As he was

4417
04:50:32,040 --> 04:50:35,119
turning a blind eye in the incestuous sexuality of his

4418
04:50:35,279 --> 04:50:39,639
patient's family, his blindness was not fake, but psychologically constrained.

4419
04:50:39,759 --> 04:50:43,560
It is the blindness that characterizes Jewishness. At the core,

4420
04:50:43,680 --> 04:50:47,799
Jewishness is the conviction deeply internalized from the earliest age

4421
04:50:47,919 --> 04:50:53,520
of the superiority of Jews over non Jews chosenness. Anything

4422
04:50:53,599 --> 04:50:57,639
contradicting this superiority creates a cognitive dissonance which is overcome

4423
04:50:57,759 --> 04:51:04,959
by denial. Denial means projection. To protect the dirty secret

4424
04:51:05,040 --> 04:51:08,319
of child abuse and Jewish families, including his own, Freud

4425
04:51:08,360 --> 04:51:13,959
projected an imaginary, repressed, infantile perversion on all mankind. Projection,

4426
04:51:14,119 --> 04:51:18,919
in turn, means inversion. Freud's close disciple Otto Rank claimed

4427
04:51:18,919 --> 04:51:21,919
the Jews had a more primitive and therefore more healthy

4428
04:51:22,000 --> 04:51:28,159
sexuality than Gentiles. Freudians and Freudo Marxists have systematically denounced

4429
04:51:28,240 --> 04:51:33,520
Christian civilization as suffering from sexual repression. According to Wilhelm Reich,

4430
04:51:33,680 --> 04:51:37,959
anti Semitism is itself a symptom of sexual frustration and

4431
04:51:38,080 --> 04:51:41,200
could be cured by sexual liberation. The Mass Psychology of

4432
04:51:41,279 --> 04:51:45,400
Fascism nineteen thirty four, an improvement from Leo Pinsker's theory

4433
04:51:45,479 --> 04:51:49,240
that judaeophobia was a hereditary and incurable disease transmitted for

4434
04:51:49,360 --> 04:51:54,040
two thousand years. In order to understand the psychological background

4435
04:51:54,159 --> 04:51:58,040
of the Reichean Messianic mission to cure the Christian West,

4436
04:51:58,080 --> 04:52:00,799
and in order to see more clearly the projective nature

4437
04:52:01,119 --> 04:52:04,240
of the psychoanalytical theory of repression. It is helpful to

4438
04:52:04,360 --> 04:52:07,200
know that the personal story of Wilhelm Reich, which reads

4439
04:52:07,240 --> 04:52:10,319
as a caricature of Freud's. At ten years old, when

4440
04:52:10,360 --> 04:52:12,360
he realized that his mother was having an affair with

4441
04:52:12,520 --> 04:52:15,599
his tutor, the young Wilhelm thought of blackmailing his mother

4442
04:52:15,720 --> 04:52:19,560
into having sex with him. Eventually, he confided in his father,

4443
04:52:19,720 --> 04:52:23,439
that is, about his mother's adultery. In nineteen ten, after

4444
04:52:23,520 --> 04:52:26,799
a period of beatings from his father, his mother committed suicide,

4445
04:52:27,159 --> 04:52:32,439
in which Reich blamed himself. One of the most puzzling

4446
04:52:33,040 --> 04:52:35,880
aspects of Jewish relationship with their host nations is its

4447
04:52:35,919 --> 04:52:40,520
ambivalence pattern on Biblical history. Within Jewish thinking, saving the

4448
04:52:40,680 --> 04:52:42,959
nations and destroying them are not two sides of the

4449
04:52:43,000 --> 04:52:46,000
same coin, but one and the same, because what nations

4450
04:52:46,000 --> 04:52:49,000
are supposed to be cured of is their very identity,

4451
04:52:49,439 --> 04:52:53,959
their gods in biblical terms. According to Andrew Hines, author

4452
04:52:54,040 --> 04:52:57,159
of Jews in the American Soul, Jews have shaped American

4453
04:52:57,200 --> 04:53:00,119
ideas about the mind and soul with the preoccupation to

4454
04:53:00,279 --> 04:53:04,720
purge the evils they associated with Christian civilization. It really

4455
04:53:04,759 --> 04:53:07,919
started with Freud and September nineteen oh nine, invited to

4456
04:53:07,959 --> 04:53:11,080
give a series of lectures in New England, Freud jokingly

4457
04:53:11,200 --> 04:53:15,319
asked his companion Sandor Ferenci and Carl Jung, don't they

4458
04:53:15,479 --> 04:53:19,840
know we're bringing them the plague? An extraordinary statement for

4459
04:53:19,919 --> 04:53:22,840
a medical doctor pretending to have found a cure for

4460
04:53:22,959 --> 04:53:27,599
neurosis and a prophetic one. Freudianism became a justification for

4461
04:53:27,680 --> 04:53:30,639
a sexual liberation that can be seen in retrospect as

4462
04:53:30,720 --> 04:53:32,959
a massive sexual abuse of the youth.

4463
04:53:34,439 --> 04:53:40,680
Speaker 2: So I don't want to rebut this too strongly. It's

4464
04:53:40,799 --> 04:53:44,479
just worth pointing out that Reich was a critic of Freud,

4465
04:53:45,840 --> 04:53:51,040
and that Reike they met in nineteen nineteen. Reich did

4466
04:53:51,200 --> 04:53:54,520
try to get to some degree into Freud's inner circle,

4467
04:53:54,919 --> 04:53:58,119
have access to his clientele, and he took up some

4468
04:53:58,279 --> 04:54:03,240
of Freud's theory rising but certainly by the end of

4469
04:54:03,279 --> 04:54:06,680
his career he was sort of an antagonist to Freud.

4470
04:54:06,840 --> 04:54:13,720
And there's some I think there's I don't want to

4471
04:54:13,759 --> 04:54:17,200
sound like I'm trying to do apologetics here because I'm

4472
04:54:17,240 --> 04:54:20,319
not really a Freudian. I think he's an interesting person

4473
04:54:20,400 --> 04:54:24,119
in in you know, intellectual history, but there's there's a

4474
04:54:24,200 --> 04:54:27,799
sort of a difference between Freud and then Freudianism that

4475
04:54:27,959 --> 04:54:30,279
followed after him. And there's a lot of people who

4476
04:54:31,000 --> 04:54:35,799
took up Freud as a kind of revolutionary figure. It

4477
04:54:35,880 --> 04:54:41,080
took his ideas as a as a vehicle for like

4478
04:54:41,200 --> 04:54:45,319
anti Christian, anti gentile, anti you know, Western polemics. I mean,

4479
04:54:45,799 --> 04:54:51,479
as Lourene Greynatt mentions earlier in the passage that you read.

4480
04:54:51,680 --> 04:54:56,439
You know, a lot of the post Marxist tradition was

4481
04:54:56,560 --> 04:54:59,520
a blend of Freud and Marx UH, and it was

4482
04:55:00,080 --> 04:55:06,200
taking up some of those ideas that really were compatible,

4483
04:55:09,639 --> 04:55:15,240
compatible as a sort of like radical communist polemic against uh,

4484
04:55:15,880 --> 04:55:22,080
you know, the the inherited tradition of Western society. But

4485
04:55:22,279 --> 04:55:28,439
Reich in particular used this sort of free wheeling sexuality

4486
04:55:28,799 --> 04:55:33,040
as as a as a foundation of his theorizing. It

4487
04:55:33,159 --> 04:55:35,520
was a it was a foundation of his polemic against

4488
04:55:36,840 --> 04:55:41,599
Christian sexual morality. I don't know that I read into

4489
04:55:41,720 --> 04:55:45,080
Freud that as much, although some of those quotes I

4490
04:55:45,159 --> 04:55:47,200
had not heard that about the plague before. So that's

4491
04:55:47,240 --> 04:55:49,520
the first time I'm hearing that, you tell me for

4492
04:55:49,560 --> 04:55:53,799
the first time. It's that is telling. And I think

4493
04:55:53,959 --> 04:55:59,400
it's undeniable that he had a conscious self concept as

4494
04:55:59,439 --> 04:56:05,119
a Jewish and interfacing with gentile society. But sometimes I

4495
04:56:05,279 --> 04:56:08,360
feel that he gets tarred a little bit too much.

4496
04:56:09,159 --> 04:56:09,799
Just a thought.

4497
04:56:14,840 --> 04:56:18,119
Speaker 1: Just for those who are watching. There's a picture here

4498
04:56:18,720 --> 04:56:23,680
of Sigmund's grandson, Sir Clement Freud claiming is a British

4499
04:56:23,799 --> 04:56:26,720
MP pedophile, rapist, suspected murder of three year old girl

4500
04:56:26,840 --> 04:56:29,959
if you go to Wikipedia. All of these allegations were

4501
04:56:30,040 --> 04:56:33,680
made after his death, and I don't think anything could

4502
04:56:33,799 --> 04:56:40,680
be proven, but two or three women gave very similar accounts.

4503
04:56:40,759 --> 04:56:44,959
So just I know people who are watching this are

4504
04:56:45,040 --> 04:56:47,200
going to be like, Hey, what's that? What's that? So

4505
04:56:47,840 --> 04:56:50,639
all I can say is Clement Freud has a Wikipedia page,

4506
04:56:50,720 --> 04:56:52,599
and I'm sure if you want to go go down

4507
04:56:52,599 --> 04:56:56,880
a rabbit hole, all right? Part six. But a Brith

4508
04:56:57,040 --> 04:57:00,119
and the Roads of Fame by a Stuning CoInc and

4509
04:57:00,240 --> 04:57:03,000
Freud was initiated into the recently founded Bene Brith in

4510
04:57:03,080 --> 04:57:06,240
September eighteen ninety seven, precisely the time of his conversion

4511
04:57:06,319 --> 04:57:10,520
to the dogma of infantile sexuality. Dennis Klein writes in

4512
04:57:10,639 --> 04:57:13,720
chapter three of his book the Book The Prefiguring of

4513
04:57:13,720 --> 04:57:16,919
the Psychoanalytical movement Freud in the bene Breth that after

4514
04:57:17,000 --> 04:57:20,880
the bitter disappointment of being denied professorship, Freud filled through

4515
04:57:20,919 --> 04:57:24,040
the bena Breth the professional as well as the social vacuum.

4516
04:57:24,080 --> 04:57:26,639
In his life. He was a very active member, attending

4517
04:57:26,680 --> 04:57:29,880
almost every meeting. During the first decade his most productive years.

4518
04:57:30,560 --> 04:57:33,479
He recruited at least three members, and in nineteen oh

4519
04:57:33,560 --> 04:57:36,159
one was a founding father of a second lodge in Vienna,

4520
04:57:36,279 --> 04:57:39,000
the Harmony Lodge. The same year he gave a talk

4521
04:57:39,119 --> 04:57:43,720
on goals and purposes of the bene Breath Society. Freud

4522
04:57:43,799 --> 04:57:46,880
often presented his work to the benea Breath before publishing it.

4523
04:57:47,360 --> 04:57:50,400
In this respect, writes Klient, the Viennase bene Brith Lodge

4524
04:57:50,520 --> 04:57:54,119
was a precursor of the movement of psychoanalysis. After his

4525
04:57:54,240 --> 04:57:56,599
death in nineteen thirty nine, the bene Breth of Vienna

4526
04:57:56,720 --> 04:58:01,599
continued relentlessly the support granted during his lifetime to the

4527
04:58:01,680 --> 04:58:06,639
famous brother. To what extent where the bene Breath Masonic

4528
04:58:06,720 --> 04:58:10,319
meetings influential in Freud swing from the seduction theory to

4529
04:58:10,400 --> 04:58:13,520
the Oedipus theory. No one can say. However, we can

4530
04:58:13,599 --> 04:58:16,919
hold as fairly certain that Freud's membership in Nay Birth

4531
04:58:17,040 --> 04:58:20,319
was influential as becoming one of the major intellectual stars

4532
04:58:20,360 --> 04:58:26,599
and gurus of modernity. As a scientist, Freud was a failure,

4533
04:58:27,040 --> 04:58:30,720
duped by his own unconscious and unrealistic confidence that he

4534
04:58:30,799 --> 04:58:34,080
could solve the human enigma by self analysis alone. He

4535
04:58:34,240 --> 04:58:37,040
was also an impostor who, in his published case studies,

4536
04:58:37,119 --> 04:58:41,520
invented cures when there was none as investigations, as the

4537
04:58:41,599 --> 04:58:44,919
real biographies of his patients have shown true, he was

4538
04:58:45,000 --> 04:58:48,799
sometimes insightful, but the hagiographic image of Freud as a

4539
04:58:48,880 --> 04:58:53,439
discoverer of the unconscious is totally unwarranted, as Henri Ellenberger

4540
04:58:53,720 --> 04:58:57,159
has shown in his classic study The Discovery of the Unconscious,

4541
04:58:57,959 --> 04:59:01,240
quoting throughout the nineteenth century, there existed a well rounded

4542
04:59:01,319 --> 04:59:04,840
system of dynamic psychiatry. The basic features of the first

4543
04:59:04,919 --> 04:59:07,919
dynamic psychiatry were the use of hypnosis as an approach

4544
04:59:07,959 --> 04:59:12,040
to the unconscious mind, the interest in certain specific conditions

4545
04:59:12,119 --> 04:59:15,360
called magnetic diseases, the concept of a dual model of

4546
04:59:15,400 --> 04:59:18,200
the mind with a conscience with a conscious and an

4547
04:59:18,319 --> 04:59:22,599
unconscious ego, the belief in the psychogenesis of many emotional

4548
04:59:22,680 --> 04:59:26,599
and physical conditions, and the use of specific psychotherapeutic procedures.

4549
04:59:27,040 --> 04:59:30,479
The therapeutic channel was seen as being the rapport between

4550
04:59:30,560 --> 04:59:34,599
hypnotists and patient. The cultural impact of the first dynamic

4551
04:59:34,680 --> 04:59:40,479
psychiatry was far greater than is generally believed. It could

4552
04:59:40,479 --> 04:59:43,479
easily be argued that in matters of psychology, every sensible

4553
04:59:43,560 --> 04:59:46,040
thing that Freud said had been said before him, and

4554
04:59:46,119 --> 04:59:49,720
that almost everything he said hadn't been said before has

4555
04:59:49,840 --> 04:59:54,799
been proven wrong. So why did Freud become famous? The

4556
04:59:54,880 --> 04:59:57,000
long answer is that Freud benefited from the same kind

4557
04:59:57,040 --> 05:00:01,080
of communication networking that produced many other Jewish intellectual quote

4558
05:00:01,119 --> 05:00:06,040
unquote geniuses and made French novelists. Andre Guide comment in

4559
05:00:06,159 --> 05:00:09,959
nineteen fourteen in his diary about this tendency to constantly

4560
05:00:10,080 --> 05:00:14,360
emphasize the jew This predisposition to recognizing in him talent,

4561
05:00:14,560 --> 05:00:18,159
even genius. The shorter answers to the question above is

4562
05:00:18,439 --> 05:00:21,560
bene Breth. I will not suggest that the bene brit

4563
05:00:21,599 --> 05:00:24,759
supported Freud's Oedipus theory because they saw its potential for

4564
05:00:24,840 --> 05:00:27,159
the moral corruption of the West. Nor do I suggest

4565
05:00:27,200 --> 05:00:29,880
that the bena Breth and Freud conspired to ruin Western

4566
05:00:29,919 --> 05:00:40,040
civilization with at pest elential idea of infantile sexuality. But

4567
05:00:40,159 --> 05:00:43,479
I do suggest that had Freud maintained his earlier conviction

4568
05:00:43,599 --> 05:00:46,040
in the reality of the abuses suffered by the Jewish parents,

4569
05:00:46,520 --> 05:00:52,799
he would not received as much support, probably none. To

4570
05:00:52,919 --> 05:00:55,520
clarify this point, is it appropriate to recall a memorable

4571
05:00:55,560 --> 05:00:58,400
demonstration of power by the Bene Breth, which has an

4572
05:00:58,400 --> 05:01:02,360
obvious relevance to Freud's intelectual biography. In nineteen thirteen, the

4573
05:01:02,400 --> 05:01:05,599
Bene Birth created the antidefamation lead to save the life

4574
05:01:05,639 --> 05:01:08,720
and reputation of Leo Frank, the wealthy young president of

4575
05:01:08,759 --> 05:01:11,240
the Atlanta chapter of the Bena Brith, who was convicted

4576
05:01:11,279 --> 05:01:13,680
of the rape and murder of Mary Fagan, a thirteen

4577
05:01:13,759 --> 05:01:16,720
year old girl work in his pencil factory. The evidence

4578
05:01:16,759 --> 05:01:20,200
for Frank's guilt was overwhelming, but tremendous financial resources were

4579
05:01:20,240 --> 05:01:24,360
deployed for his legal defense, including false testimonies. An intense

4580
05:01:24,439 --> 05:01:28,720
publicity was orchestrated in the news media, with the New

4581
05:01:28,840 --> 05:01:32,680
York Times devoting enormous coverage to this case. I quote

4582
05:01:32,720 --> 05:01:37,599
from ron Uns's article, quoting for almost two years to

4583
05:01:37,680 --> 05:01:41,040
nearly limitless, funds deployed by Frank's supporters covered the cost

4584
05:01:41,119 --> 05:01:44,080
of thirteen separate appeals on the state and federal levels,

4585
05:01:44,439 --> 05:01:46,880
including to the US Supreme Court, while the national media

4586
05:01:47,000 --> 05:01:49,959
was used to endlessly vilify Georgia's system of justice in

4587
05:01:50,000 --> 05:01:54,240
the harsher's possible terms. Naturally, this soon generated a local reaction,

4588
05:01:54,400 --> 05:01:57,759
and during this period, outraged Georgians began denouncing the wealthy

4589
05:01:57,880 --> 05:02:00,520
Jews who were spending such enormous sums today subvert the

4590
05:02:00,599 --> 05:02:04,799
local criminal justice system. All appeals were ultimately rejected, and

4591
05:02:04,840 --> 05:02:07,599
Frank's execution date for the rape and murder of the

4592
05:02:07,680 --> 05:02:10,720
young girl finally drew near, But just days before he

4593
05:02:10,880 --> 05:02:15,520
was scheduled to leave office, Georgia's outgoing governor commuted Frank's sentence,

4594
05:02:15,759 --> 05:02:19,200
provoking an enormous storm of popular protests, especially since he

4595
05:02:19,319 --> 05:02:22,520
was legal partner of Frank's chief defense lawyer and obvious

4596
05:02:22,639 --> 05:02:25,520
conflict of interest. A few weeks later, a group of

4597
05:02:25,599 --> 05:02:30,520
Georgia citizens stormed Frank's prison farm, abducting and hanging him,

4598
05:02:30,840 --> 05:02:33,680
with Frank becoming the first and only Jew lynched in

4599
05:02:33,799 --> 05:02:39,759
American history. Thanks to the mobilization of the Jewish power elite,

4600
05:02:40,159 --> 05:02:43,240
as one man, Leo Frank had been turned from a

4601
05:02:43,279 --> 05:02:46,639
convicted pedophile and child murder into a martyr of antisemitism.

4602
05:02:47,200 --> 05:02:49,040
We don't know what Freud thought of this case, but

4603
05:02:49,159 --> 05:02:51,880
there is an obvious residence between his assaults on truth

4604
05:02:51,959 --> 05:02:55,240
and the Benet Brits. If young Mary Fagan had visited

4605
05:02:55,240 --> 05:02:58,400
a Freudian psychoanalyst before her atrocious death and complained of

4606
05:02:58,479 --> 05:03:01,400
her boss's sexual overtures, she probably would have been told

4607
05:03:01,439 --> 05:03:04,919
about her own penis envy. Had she protested, she would

4608
05:03:04,919 --> 05:03:07,680
have been told that her protest proved her sexual repression.

4609
05:03:08,279 --> 05:03:13,560
Exactly has happened to Freud's patience. Dora at a bower

4610
05:03:13,639 --> 05:03:16,200
by her real name, an eighteen year old girls suffering

4611
05:03:16,240 --> 05:03:25,319
from hysterical symptoms. I will say this, the KKK up

4612
05:03:25,439 --> 05:03:33,560
until this point really had no the Jewish question wasn't

4613
05:03:33,599 --> 05:03:38,880
really on their radar. This basically was a turn in

4614
05:03:38,959 --> 05:03:42,599
their organization. And actually at that point their organization had

4615
05:03:42,680 --> 05:03:49,000
weakened and this kind of woke them up. So yeah,

4616
05:03:49,799 --> 05:03:54,119
we see the Uh what happens when when Jewish power

4617
05:03:54,159 --> 05:03:59,319
and money goes to protect their own people doing who've

4618
05:03:59,360 --> 05:04:02,919
done something wrong or being accused of doing something wrong?

4619
05:04:03,439 --> 05:04:07,639
How other people just go wait a minute, let's start

4620
05:04:07,639 --> 05:04:13,799
asking some questions about this. So all right, part seven

4621
05:04:13,880 --> 05:04:17,599
the Isaac complex. The son's repressed wish to murder his

4622
05:04:17,680 --> 05:04:20,959
father is perhaps Freud's most fertile intuition. The problem is

4623
05:04:21,040 --> 05:04:24,319
with Freud's abuse of generalization. Only the neurotic son of

4624
05:04:24,360 --> 05:04:26,919
a destructive and manipulative father has a repressed wish to

4625
05:04:27,000 --> 05:04:30,639
kill the father. Freud discovered this impulse in himself and

4626
05:04:30,720 --> 05:04:33,520
confounding his own self analysis for a scientific quest of

4627
05:04:33,639 --> 05:04:37,119
universal laws, he projected it on all mankind. But the

4628
05:04:37,159 --> 05:04:40,319
fact that Freud's Jewish disciples all discovered the same impulse,

4629
05:04:40,400 --> 05:04:43,159
and that Freudian has and became so widely accepted by Jews,

4630
05:04:43,560 --> 05:04:48,000
suggest that Freud's generalization was not without merit. It only

4631
05:04:48,040 --> 05:04:51,040
suffered from the tendency of Jewish intellectuals to protect to

4632
05:04:51,159 --> 05:04:56,919
preject Jewish issues on all mankind. The child's repress wish

4633
05:04:57,000 --> 05:04:59,439
to kill his father is not universally human, but maybe

4634
05:04:59,560 --> 05:05:03,159
character Jewish. For the Jewish father is the guardian of

4635
05:05:03,240 --> 05:05:06,439
Jewishness and the representative of the Jewish God, and every

4636
05:05:06,520 --> 05:05:08,759
Jewish buyer is in the depth of his soul to

4637
05:05:08,799 --> 05:05:12,759
free himself from Yahweh, the archetypal abuse of incastrating father.

4638
05:05:13,560 --> 05:05:17,840
As Philip Brought's character Smilesberger says, in Operation Shylock to

4639
05:05:18,000 --> 05:05:21,439
appeal to a crazy, violent father, and for three thousand years,

4640
05:05:21,560 --> 05:05:24,639
that is what is to be a crazy Jew. And

4641
05:05:24,759 --> 05:05:27,080
so the secret wish to murder the Jewish Father is

4642
05:05:27,080 --> 05:05:29,360
also a secret wish for the death of the Jewish God.

4643
05:05:29,880 --> 05:05:32,360
It is therefore identical with the so called Jewish self

4644
05:05:32,400 --> 05:05:36,959
hatred that Theodore Lessing saw as affecting every Jew without exception.

4645
05:05:37,639 --> 05:05:39,400
There is not a single man of Jewish blood in

4646
05:05:39,439 --> 05:05:43,159
whom cannot be detected at least the beginning of Jewish

4647
05:05:43,240 --> 05:05:44,000
self hatred.

4648
05:05:45,560 --> 05:05:49,119
Speaker 2: This also begs the makes me wonder again, like thinking

4649
05:05:49,319 --> 05:05:54,680
of his book From Moses to Monotheism, if we're taking

4650
05:05:54,880 --> 05:05:59,119
this point of view that Lorent is putting forth year,

4651
05:06:00,159 --> 05:06:05,520
maybe there's a vested interest in Freud wanting to complicate

4652
05:06:06,240 --> 05:06:12,840
or problematize the Jewish view of themselves as being the

4653
05:06:13,000 --> 05:06:17,759
first and only authentic monotheistic people. I mean, I do

4654
05:06:17,959 --> 05:06:20,520
think in that book he talked about Yahwehs being a

4655
05:06:20,599 --> 05:06:23,720
volcanic god. I mean, these are sort of things that

4656
05:06:24,080 --> 05:06:31,080
like contemporary comparative religious scholars sort of look at. Certainly

4657
05:06:31,080 --> 05:06:34,479
it's something anti Semites look at and say, hmm, this

4658
05:06:34,680 --> 05:06:39,360
is a particularistic god with the specific origin that reflects

4659
05:06:39,439 --> 05:06:42,319
an aspect of the Jewish psyche. And maybe it's not,

4660
05:06:42,599 --> 05:06:45,880
you know, the one true loving God of the Bible.

4661
05:06:46,000 --> 05:06:51,279
Blah blah blah. I mean, it's certainly interesting to turn

4662
05:06:51,439 --> 05:06:55,279
the psychoanalysis back on the psychoanalyst. That's always a fun

4663
05:06:55,319 --> 05:06:55,799
game to play.

4664
05:06:58,759 --> 05:07:01,360
Speaker 1: We're almost done here, I guess we're going to finish

4665
05:07:01,400 --> 05:07:06,319
this up alrighty. By choosing a Greek myth as a

4666
05:07:06,400 --> 05:07:09,479
metaphor for his theory, Freud was projecting on Gentiles a

4667
05:07:09,560 --> 05:07:13,240
Jewish problem. Had he recognized the Jewish overtone of the complex,

4668
05:07:13,560 --> 05:07:16,439
he might have called it the Isaac complex, since Isaac

4669
05:07:16,560 --> 05:07:19,799
is the son that Abraham was willing to slaughter. The

4670
05:07:19,880 --> 05:07:24,080
expression The expression Isaac complex has actually been used by

4671
05:07:24,119 --> 05:07:28,639
French heterodox psychoanalyst Jean Pierre Fresco, who defines it as

4672
05:07:28,759 --> 05:07:31,639
the overall consequences of the son's psyche of a father

4673
05:07:31,840 --> 05:07:38,520
perceived as as psychologically menacing, destroying, or murderous. Fresco calls

4674
05:07:38,560 --> 05:07:42,319
such a father a Brahmic. He draws his insight from

4675
05:07:42,360 --> 05:07:46,159
a reading of Frantz Kofka's autobiographical and posthumously published Letter

4676
05:07:46,319 --> 05:07:49,919
to the Father, in which Kafka describes the devastating effect

4677
05:07:50,040 --> 05:07:53,759
on his personality of a father whose means of education

4678
05:07:54,000 --> 05:07:58,520
were abuse, threats, irony, spiteful laughter, and oddly enough, self pity.

4679
05:07:59,159 --> 05:08:02,479
Kafka also wrote to his father, my writing was all

4680
05:08:02,560 --> 05:08:06,279
about you. All I did there after all was to

4681
05:08:06,400 --> 05:08:08,919
be moan what I could not be moaned upon your breast.

4682
05:08:11,040 --> 05:08:14,639
Kafka's major novels refer autobiographically to his relationship with his

4683
05:08:14,759 --> 05:08:19,240
father and its deletarious psychic consequences. The Metamorphosis tells of

4684
05:08:19,279 --> 05:08:23,240
Gregor Sams's transformation into a repulsive insect, chased and killed

4685
05:08:23,279 --> 05:08:26,360
by his father, whose incestuous violence is suggested in the

4686
05:08:26,400 --> 05:08:28,680
scene where the father attacks his son from behind with

4687
05:08:28,759 --> 05:08:32,439
a cane, tapping his feet and pushing out sibilants like

4688
05:08:32,520 --> 05:08:35,880
a wild man. After the death of Gregor appears his

4689
05:08:36,000 --> 05:08:41,000
sister Greta, his double in the other sex, the homosexualized

4690
05:08:41,080 --> 05:08:46,240
son in the Verdict, George, anagram of Gregor, has just

4691
05:08:46,360 --> 05:08:50,720
become engaged with Frieda Brandenfeld same initials as Felice Bauer,

4692
05:08:50,799 --> 05:08:53,720
the woman who Kafka had just started dating, and announces

4693
05:08:53,759 --> 05:08:56,680
it to his father. The father opposes a terrible prohibition

4694
05:08:56,840 --> 05:09:00,360
to this project of marriage, accompanied by extreme narcissistic biolence.

4695
05:09:00,840 --> 05:09:04,400
The paternal prohibition of emancipation through marriage is linked to

4696
05:09:04,400 --> 05:09:10,200
an incestuous domination that becomes clear when George submissively proposes

4697
05:09:10,240 --> 05:09:13,639
to the father to exchange beds. Fresco also finds a

4698
05:09:14,200 --> 05:09:17,279
psychic trace of the father in Kofgo's novel The Trial,

4699
05:09:17,599 --> 05:09:21,520
whose narrator Joseph Kay was arrested without knowing who slandered

4700
05:09:21,599 --> 05:09:25,680
him nor who will judge him. According to Fresco, this

4701
05:09:25,840 --> 05:09:31,639
incomprehensible and omnipotent slanderer accuser judge is the palympicist, the

4702
05:09:31,799 --> 05:09:38,840
polympicist of an archaic Abrahamic father, unconsciously introjected as an

4703
05:09:39,000 --> 05:09:44,279
archaic and sadistic super ego and turned into an inner prosecutor.

4704
05:09:47,040 --> 05:09:49,599
I find it significant that Kafka, by his own omission,

4705
05:09:49,680 --> 05:09:51,840
drew his inspiration from his experience as the son of

4706
05:09:51,880 --> 05:09:55,240
a psychopathic father, while whose Jewish literary critics consider him

4707
05:09:55,319 --> 05:10:00,919
quintessentially Jewish, by common consents that Harold Kafka is not

4708
05:10:01,040 --> 05:10:04,119
only the strongest modern Jewish writer, but the Jewish writer.

4709
05:10:05,639 --> 05:10:09,840
Hence Israel's long decade long legal battle to secure his

4710
05:10:09,959 --> 05:10:13,599
autograph manuscripts as national treasure. Who is right of Kafka

4711
05:10:13,720 --> 05:10:16,759
and his critics? Does his genius come from being Jewish

4712
05:10:17,159 --> 05:10:20,360
or from having a psychopathic father? Obviously it is impossible

4713
05:10:20,400 --> 05:10:24,119
to distinguish the two factors. Because the psychopathic father happens

4714
05:10:24,159 --> 05:10:27,599
to be Jewish, he is, in Fresco's terms, the typical

4715
05:10:27,680 --> 05:10:30,639
a Brahmic father. But are not all Jewish fathers of

4716
05:10:30,720 --> 05:10:34,000
Brahmik in the measures of their jewishness? Is not the

4717
05:10:34,080 --> 05:10:37,360
Jewish God a psychopathic father, and the psychopathic father of

4718
05:10:37,400 --> 05:10:42,959
a Jewish god. Kafka perceived his sadistic father as a

4719
05:10:43,000 --> 05:10:46,959
cruel divinity whose laws were totally arbitrary and yet unquestionable,

4720
05:10:47,520 --> 05:10:50,000
just like the Jewish God. For me, as a child,

4721
05:10:50,119 --> 05:10:53,680
everything you called out to me was positively a heavenly commandment,

4722
05:10:53,759 --> 05:10:57,479
he wrote in his Letters to the Father. From your armchair,

4723
05:10:57,560 --> 05:11:00,200
you ruled the world. Your opinion was correct. Every other

4724
05:11:00,360 --> 05:11:04,439
was mad, wild with sugar, not normal. Your self confidence,

4725
05:11:04,520 --> 05:11:06,799
indeed was so great that you had no need to

4726
05:11:07,759 --> 05:11:10,279
be consistent at all, and yet never ceased to be right,

4727
05:11:11,200 --> 05:11:14,919
quoting Hence the world was for me divided into three parts.

4728
05:11:15,040 --> 05:11:17,919
One in which I, the slave, lived under laws that

4729
05:11:18,040 --> 05:11:20,400
had been invented only for me, and which I could

4730
05:11:20,680 --> 05:11:23,919
I did not know why never completely comply with. Then

4731
05:11:23,959 --> 05:11:26,599
a second world which was infinitely remote from mine, in

4732
05:11:26,639 --> 05:11:29,439
which you lived, concerned with government, with the issuing of

4733
05:11:29,639 --> 05:11:33,360
orders and the annoyance about their not being obeyed. And finally,

4734
05:11:33,400 --> 05:11:36,400
a third world, which everybody else lived happily and free

4735
05:11:36,479 --> 05:11:39,639
from orders and from having to obey. I was continually

4736
05:11:39,680 --> 05:11:42,240
in disgrace. Either I obeyed your orders, and that was

4737
05:11:42,279 --> 05:11:44,919
a disgrace, for they applied, after all, only to me.

4738
05:11:45,639 --> 05:11:47,919
Or I was defiant, and this was a disgrace too,

4739
05:11:48,119 --> 05:11:51,319
for how could I presume to defy you? And I

4740
05:11:51,360 --> 05:11:53,799
could not obey because I did not, for instance, have

4741
05:11:53,919 --> 05:11:57,479
your strength, your appetite, your skill, although you expected it

4742
05:11:57,680 --> 05:12:00,200
of me as a matter of course. This was the

4743
05:12:00,240 --> 05:12:10,159
greatest disgrace of all. I mean, this is I was,

4744
05:12:10,279 --> 05:12:12,680
as I was reading this section right here, the quoted section,

4745
05:12:13,159 --> 05:12:14,159
I was just thinking of.

4746
05:12:16,040 --> 05:12:16,080
Speaker 2: E.

4747
05:12:16,159 --> 05:12:20,319
Speaker 1: Michael Jones, a Jewish revolutionary spirit, where I mean, he's

4748
05:12:20,400 --> 05:12:25,639
just basically he's revolting against everything around him, and all

4749
05:12:25,720 --> 05:12:28,799
he wants to do is just be it seems like

4750
05:12:29,040 --> 05:12:33,599
just be a solo man where the only the only

4751
05:12:33,680 --> 05:12:35,360
person he has to answer to is himself.

4752
05:12:36,720 --> 05:12:41,319
Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, that that that sort of radical

4753
05:12:41,400 --> 05:12:45,520
individualistic streak does seem to be kind of characteristically Jewish.

4754
05:12:48,240 --> 05:12:52,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's a it's been pushed upon us, upon

4755
05:12:52,279 --> 05:12:55,880
this culture, upon America and you know what used to

4756
05:12:55,959 --> 05:13:01,080
be the West for one hundred years now it's a

4757
05:13:02,639 --> 05:13:05,520
you know, it's seen as a virtue. And if you

4758
05:13:07,279 --> 05:13:11,720
go against that individualism, you're a communist, which is ironic

4759
05:13:11,840 --> 05:13:18,880
considering where both of those ideas came from. Right, yeah, right.

4760
05:13:19,040 --> 05:13:21,959
Part eight, and this is the last part, the trauma

4761
05:13:22,080 --> 05:13:26,799
of eight days circumcision. After all, the Abrahamic father is

4762
05:13:26,840 --> 05:13:30,759
the executioner of the commandment given to Abraham. As soon

4763
05:13:30,799 --> 05:13:32,720
as he is eight days old, every one of your

4764
05:13:32,759 --> 05:13:37,119
male's generation after generation must be circumcised. Had Freud preserved

4765
05:13:37,159 --> 05:13:41,119
his original insight into the psychological damage of sexual abuse

4766
05:13:41,200 --> 05:13:45,319
on children, he might have eventually reflected on the impact

4767
05:13:45,360 --> 05:13:49,279
of neonatal circumcision, but he has been rather discrete on

4768
05:13:49,360 --> 05:13:52,400
the subject. Though he didn't have his own sons circumcised,

4769
05:13:53,040 --> 05:13:56,119
he broaches in his later books, but only in the

4770
05:13:56,200 --> 05:14:01,799
context of anthropological speculations. In New Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis,

4771
05:14:01,840 --> 05:14:06,799
he speculated that during the human family's primeval period, castration

4772
05:14:07,080 --> 05:14:09,159
used to be carried out by a jealous and cruel

4773
05:14:09,200 --> 05:14:12,880
father upon growing boys, and that circumcision, which so frequently

4774
05:14:12,919 --> 05:14:15,799
plays a part in puberty rights among primitive people, is

4775
05:14:15,880 --> 05:14:19,599
a clearly recognizable relic of it. Freud went further in

4776
05:14:20,400 --> 05:14:25,919
Moses and Monotheism, circumcision is the symbolic substitute of castration,

4777
05:14:26,159 --> 05:14:29,639
a punishment which the primeval father dealt his sons long

4778
05:14:29,720 --> 05:14:33,000
ago out of an awfulness of his power. And whosoever

4779
05:14:33,159 --> 05:14:36,200
accepted this symbol showed by so doing that he was

4780
05:14:36,279 --> 05:14:39,200
ready to submit to his father's will, although it was

4781
05:14:39,240 --> 05:14:46,200
at the cost of a painful sacrifice. Interestingly, Freud originally

4782
05:14:46,240 --> 05:14:49,119
got that idea from Sandor Ferenci, who had written an

4783
05:14:49,279 --> 05:14:52,560
article that greatly impressed Freud, that circumcision as a means

4784
05:14:52,560 --> 05:14:56,159
of inspiring terror a symbol of castration by the father.

4785
05:15:00,119 --> 05:15:02,639
We note that in the above quotations, Freud isn't referring

4786
05:15:02,680 --> 05:15:06,000
to Jewish circ circumcision of eight day children, only to

4787
05:15:06,119 --> 05:15:10,000
circumcision of adolescent boys. Given the Jewish undercurrent of Freud's

4788
05:15:10,000 --> 05:15:13,040
intellectual biography. It is reasonable to assume that his inability

4789
05:15:13,080 --> 05:15:17,119
to deal with the issue of Jewish neonatal circumcision is

4790
05:15:17,200 --> 05:15:20,040
connected to his refusal to face the devastating reality of

4791
05:15:20,159 --> 05:15:23,720
child abuse. Isn't the first abuse suffered by every Jewish

4792
05:15:23,759 --> 05:15:26,479
male that part of his parents and kin's circumcision on

4793
05:15:26,599 --> 05:15:30,279
the eighth day, It physically impresses on every Jew and

4794
05:15:30,400 --> 05:15:34,479
on all Jews collectively, the traumatic domination of Yahweh and

4795
05:15:34,560 --> 05:15:42,400
his covenants. The psychological impact of neonatal circumcision performed without

4796
05:15:42,400 --> 05:15:45,720
anesthesia and causing unbearable pain has been studied by Professor

4797
05:15:45,799 --> 05:15:49,560
Ronald Goldman, author of Circumcision The Hidden Trauma. His research

4798
05:15:49,639 --> 05:15:52,639
shows a disturbance in the mother child bonding process after

4799
05:15:52,720 --> 05:15:56,799
the ritual. Testimonies from mothers who observe circumcisions show that

4800
05:15:56,880 --> 05:15:59,680
the mother's guilt is also part of the equation. Here

4801
05:15:59,799 --> 05:16:03,439
is from Elizabeth Pickard Ginsburg. I don't feel I can

4802
05:16:03,520 --> 05:16:05,799
recover from it. We had this beautiful baby boy in

4803
05:16:05,919 --> 05:16:09,479
seven beautiful days, and this beautiful rhythm starting, and it

4804
05:16:09,599 --> 05:16:12,840
was like something had been shattered. When he was first born.

4805
05:16:12,919 --> 05:16:15,080
There was a tie with my young one, my newborn,

4806
05:16:15,200 --> 05:16:17,720
and when the circumcision happened, in order to allow it,

4807
05:16:18,119 --> 05:16:20,959
I had to cut off the bond. I had to

4808
05:16:21,040 --> 05:16:23,200
cut off my natural instincts, and in doing so, I

4809
05:16:23,279 --> 05:16:26,000
cut off a lot of feelings towards Jesse. I cut

4810
05:16:26,040 --> 05:16:27,840
it off to repress the pain and to repress the

4811
05:16:27,959 --> 05:16:35,159
natural instinct to stop the circumcision. The unnatural, incestuous wish

4812
05:16:35,279 --> 05:16:37,919
that Freud and his Jewish male disciples discovered in their

4813
05:16:37,959 --> 05:16:42,240
repressed unconscious could perhaps be explained as a result of

4814
05:16:42,279 --> 05:16:46,400
the inhibition in mother child bonding caused by the trauma

4815
05:16:46,479 --> 05:16:49,880
of neonatal circumcision, a trauma cause at this age has

4816
05:16:49,959 --> 05:16:52,439
little chance to ever be brought back into consciousness and

4817
05:16:52,520 --> 05:16:55,319
be healed. More research is perhaps needed on the possible

4818
05:16:55,360 --> 05:16:59,639
link between Jewish circumcision and the fact that, according to

4819
05:16:59,840 --> 05:17:03,319
the nineteen oh six Uish Encyclopedia, that the Jews are

4820
05:17:03,360 --> 05:17:05,959
more subject to diseases of the nervous system than the

4821
05:17:06,080 --> 05:17:10,240
other races and peoples among which they dwell. Research done

4822
05:17:10,279 --> 05:17:13,720
by sociologists Leo Stroll in nineteen sixty two show that

4823
05:17:13,759 --> 05:17:17,040
the rate of neuroses and character disorders among Jews was

4824
05:17:17,040 --> 05:17:21,080
about three times higher three times as high among Catholics

4825
05:17:21,240 --> 05:17:26,919
and Protestants. In the Future of an Illusion, Sigmund Freud

4826
05:17:27,000 --> 05:17:32,959
describes religion, meaning essentially Christianity, as universal obsessional neurosis, which

4827
05:17:33,000 --> 05:17:36,000
has for believers the merit that their acceptance of the

4828
05:17:36,080 --> 05:17:41,119
universal neuroses spares them the task of constructing a personal one.

4829
05:17:41,759 --> 05:17:44,279
With a similar approach, Judaism can be described as a

4830
05:17:44,319 --> 05:17:49,840
collective sociopathy. That does not mean that the Jews are sociopaths,

4831
05:17:50,040 --> 05:17:52,599
but rather that, in proportion to the degree of their

4832
05:17:52,680 --> 05:17:56,319
identification as Jews, they are victims of a sociopathic mindset

4833
05:17:56,720 --> 05:18:00,520
patterned from the Tanak marked in their flesh, impressed traumatically

4834
05:18:00,919 --> 05:18:05,639
in their subconscious by circumcision, and fuel by their elites

4835
05:18:05,919 --> 05:18:10,080
with the paranoia of anti Semitism. The difference between collective

4836
05:18:10,119 --> 05:18:16,279
sociopathy and individual sociopathy is the same as between collective

4837
05:18:16,360 --> 05:18:20,520
neurosis and individual neurosis. According to Freud, participation in a

4838
05:18:20,560 --> 05:18:26,080
collective sociopathic mentality allows members of the community to channel

4839
05:18:26,200 --> 05:18:30,360
sociopathic tendencies towards the outside of the community and to

4840
05:18:30,479 --> 05:18:34,759
maintain inside a high degree of associability.

4841
05:18:36,400 --> 05:18:40,360
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking, especially in the light of those last

4842
05:18:40,400 --> 05:18:44,680
two sections. If you look at a lot of if

4843
05:18:44,680 --> 05:18:48,040
you look at some of the other classic Freudian concepts,

4844
05:18:48,840 --> 05:18:54,279
some of his defense mechanisms, even his tripartite model of

4845
05:18:55,159 --> 05:19:02,080
human consciousness, to d the ego, the super egos. I mean,

4846
05:19:02,200 --> 05:19:05,000
this is one of the reasons, going through my education,

4847
05:19:05,200 --> 05:19:07,560
but also just reflecting on it throughout my life, I

4848
05:19:07,720 --> 05:19:11,159
never really considered myself a Freudian was because I never

4849
05:19:11,319 --> 05:19:17,560
felt in my own experience as a thinking person any

4850
05:19:17,680 --> 05:19:21,919
identification with or recognition of some of these things that

4851
05:19:22,040 --> 05:19:26,400
he treated as sort of paramount to the human experience. So,

4852
05:19:27,880 --> 05:19:30,119
you know, the idea of a super ego as this

4853
05:19:30,400 --> 05:19:37,400
sort of crushing mental tyrant, urging you into conformity. I mean,

4854
05:19:37,599 --> 05:19:41,000
that sounds a lot more like how Lourent Goynott talks

4855
05:19:41,040 --> 05:19:46,799
about the relationship that Jewish men, Jews in particular, feel

4856
05:19:47,560 --> 05:19:51,279
towards Yahweh and the desire to overthrow the Father, to

4857
05:19:52,959 --> 05:20:00,240
set themselves up as a sort of authoritarian guy of

4858
05:20:00,319 --> 05:20:02,919
one type or another. I mean, that is what the

4859
05:20:03,040 --> 05:20:05,520
super ego is and his conception, and that's sort of

4860
05:20:05,680 --> 05:20:10,080
what you know, a certain like anti Semitic reading of

4861
05:20:10,479 --> 05:20:14,159
the God of the Old Bible looks like and I

4862
05:20:14,240 --> 05:20:17,240
don't know too many gentiles my whole life who really

4863
05:20:18,040 --> 05:20:21,439
necessarily had a problem with like I mean, there's an

4864
05:20:21,520 --> 05:20:25,319
extent to which, you know, nobody likes to be told

4865
05:20:25,360 --> 05:20:27,840
what to do, and at some point in life we're

4866
05:20:27,840 --> 05:20:30,159
all like shaking our fist against the man or whatever.

4867
05:20:30,560 --> 05:20:34,919
But this sort of like deep seated, for lack of

4868
05:20:35,000 --> 05:20:43,639
a better word, pathological relationship with authority or conformity. I mean,

4869
05:20:44,000 --> 05:20:46,520
most of the guy I mean, I grew up middle

4870
05:20:46,560 --> 05:20:48,360
class for the most part, so most of the people

4871
05:20:48,439 --> 05:20:51,200
I knew like never had a problem with conformity so

4872
05:20:51,360 --> 05:20:57,680
long as the nature of the authority was acceptable or justifiable.

4873
05:20:58,200 --> 05:21:02,200
And you see a certain and streak in like these

4874
05:21:02,279 --> 05:21:05,840
more radical Jewish intellectuals, where there there literally is no

4875
05:21:06,119 --> 05:21:10,759
standard that they will subject themselves to and and many

4876
05:21:11,000 --> 05:21:16,560
Jewish philosophies are entirely based on this idea that I

4877
05:21:16,720 --> 05:21:20,319
am my own measure and how dare you? This is

4878
05:21:20,360 --> 05:21:24,680
almost like like is his name, Dave Portnoy from Barstool Sports.

4879
05:21:25,119 --> 05:21:28,759
It's like he's like almost a good representation of this,

4880
05:21:29,080 --> 05:21:32,840
Like fuck you, there is literally no standard I will

4881
05:21:32,919 --> 05:21:36,400
accept because that standard is external to myself and that

4882
05:21:36,520 --> 05:21:42,000
is so dysfunctional. Uh and and Lorenz says at the end, sociopathic.

4883
05:21:42,400 --> 05:21:46,319
I mean you literally can't build a society. You can't

4884
05:21:46,400 --> 05:21:50,680
build a community around a type of masculine psychology that

4885
05:21:50,840 --> 05:21:59,720
simply categorically rejects any other and any other responsibility to

4886
05:22:00,520 --> 05:22:03,639
beyond itself. I have some other thoughts. I don't know

4887
05:22:03,639 --> 05:22:07,799
if you want to respond to that. No, keep going,

4888
05:22:08,919 --> 05:22:11,599
So I mean the other thing that so, the other

4889
05:22:11,680 --> 05:22:15,000
thing that Freud is well known for putting forth are

4890
05:22:15,400 --> 05:22:24,040
this sort of comprehensive list of defense mechanisms, some of which,

4891
05:22:24,439 --> 05:22:27,840
like frankly like never made sense to me. Part of

4892
05:22:27,880 --> 05:22:31,000
the reason why I struggled to really embrace my career

4893
05:22:31,000 --> 05:22:34,000
as a psychologists because it was like, some of these

4894
05:22:34,279 --> 05:22:36,720
these are supposed to be foundational ideas, and it's like

4895
05:22:36,840 --> 05:22:40,159
I don't really see them reflected in other people. I

4896
05:22:40,200 --> 05:22:42,799
don't really see them in myself. So, like, for example,

4897
05:22:44,840 --> 05:22:53,759
reaction formation and sublimation. These are psychological defense mechanisms that

4898
05:22:53,919 --> 05:22:58,520
actually make a lot more sense if you're assuming that

4899
05:22:58,639 --> 05:23:04,840
it's a sort of group outsider group strategy in a

4900
05:23:05,520 --> 05:23:11,080
hostile society. So the idea of reaction formation is that

4901
05:23:11,240 --> 05:23:14,200
you behave in a way that is the opposite of

4902
05:23:14,439 --> 05:23:18,119
how you feel, or is the opposite of your natural inclination.

4903
05:23:18,759 --> 05:23:23,919
And maybe if you are sort of like maybe like

4904
05:23:24,000 --> 05:23:30,680
Freud potentially was, where you just simply bristol at the

4905
05:23:30,919 --> 05:23:35,360
norms and the expectations that the society around you expects

4906
05:23:35,360 --> 05:23:38,560
you to conform to, that you have to go through

4907
05:23:38,639 --> 05:23:43,200
this sort of tortured psychological transformation where you're taking your

4908
05:23:43,319 --> 05:23:46,360
native sort of again, if we want to invoke e.

4909
05:23:46,479 --> 05:23:49,439
Michael Jones, if you have a sort of like radical

4910
05:23:49,560 --> 05:23:55,200
transgressive impulse, but you necessarily have to function in a

4911
05:23:55,279 --> 05:23:59,360
society that will not tolerate that. And I don't know

4912
05:23:59,400 --> 05:24:02,680
about you. I didn't go around as a kid like

4913
05:24:02,840 --> 05:24:05,599
necessarily feeling like I had to flip everyone the bird

4914
05:24:06,119 --> 05:24:10,279
and flip over every table and piss in everyone's cheerios.

4915
05:24:10,560 --> 05:24:13,279
I mean I had youthful vigor. I think every young

4916
05:24:13,360 --> 05:24:16,520
man growing up has like a certain like desire to

4917
05:24:17,159 --> 05:24:20,840
impress themselves upon the environment around them. But to the

4918
05:24:20,959 --> 05:24:24,520
degree where you like are constantly like foaming at the

4919
05:24:24,639 --> 05:24:27,479
mouth with like I can't be the way they want

4920
05:24:27,520 --> 05:24:30,119
me to be. I refuse to do anything they want

4921
05:24:30,159 --> 05:24:32,599
me to do. I hate them, and yet I've got

4922
05:24:32,639 --> 05:24:36,799
to I've got to abide by them anyway, like reaction formation,

4923
05:24:36,919 --> 05:24:42,759
where you've got a there's a fundamental dissonance between your

4924
05:24:42,840 --> 05:24:48,759
behaviors and your actual internal experience. That doesn't I feel

4925
05:24:48,759 --> 05:24:51,360
like you don't really see that. Some of the places

4926
05:24:51,439 --> 05:24:55,799
you do see that are frankly like pathological work environments,

4927
05:24:56,159 --> 05:25:00,319
you know, the like you see them really you kind

4928
05:25:00,319 --> 05:25:04,479
of only see them in this sort of post Jewish

4929
05:25:05,159 --> 05:25:10,200
privileged world where everything is sort of remade and reformed

4930
05:25:10,680 --> 05:25:16,119
to conform to a sort of Jewish morality. That I mean, yeah,

4931
05:25:16,200 --> 05:25:18,319
when I go to my if I have my office

4932
05:25:18,400 --> 05:25:21,880
job and I hate my deiboss, and I have to

4933
05:25:22,000 --> 05:25:24,560
smile at him even though I'm cursing under my breath,

4934
05:25:24,680 --> 05:25:28,080
like you don't. I mean, that's that makes sense. But

4935
05:25:28,599 --> 05:25:31,560
then again, it's like the same framework, like you are

4936
05:25:31,680 --> 05:25:35,880
an outsider. You are sort of a marginalized person in

4937
05:25:36,000 --> 05:25:39,240
this existing ecosystem, and you've got to find a way

4938
05:25:39,279 --> 05:25:46,880
to navigate it. Sublimation is another one, channeling unacceptable impulses

4939
05:25:46,919 --> 05:25:52,439
into socially acceptable activities. I mean, doesn't that describe tikon Oleum.

4940
05:25:53,040 --> 05:25:56,119
It's like it's like I got into this argument with

4941
05:25:57,439 --> 05:26:00,639
this Jewish woman on Twitter the other day. She's like

4942
05:26:00,720 --> 05:26:04,400
one of these not to get all inside baseball Twitter

4943
05:26:04,520 --> 05:26:07,639
micro communities on you and your audience. But she was

4944
05:26:08,119 --> 05:26:11,560
part of this like Hegelian egirl thing that was like

4945
05:26:11,680 --> 05:26:16,080
a very minor social media thing a year ago. And

4946
05:26:16,200 --> 05:26:21,279
she's an ethnically Jewish woman but a devout Christian. And

4947
05:26:21,439 --> 05:26:25,159
over the course of this conversation, she's basically you know,

4948
05:26:26,520 --> 05:26:31,000
she's being provoked because she's she's she put up this

4949
05:26:31,119 --> 05:26:35,080
post where she said how much she hates German people

4950
05:26:35,279 --> 05:26:39,919
and that she confused considers them a inferior people, and

4951
05:26:40,040 --> 05:26:42,159
she prays to God for forgiveness and she prais it

4952
05:26:42,279 --> 05:26:46,919
the Germans prayer to God for forgiveness too. It's like, Okay,

4953
05:26:48,000 --> 05:26:54,439
if you have these sort of tortured reactions to the

4954
05:26:54,560 --> 05:27:02,119
world around you that you are trying to make acceptable

4955
05:27:02,159 --> 05:27:04,959
to those around you, like, isn't that like isn't that

4956
05:27:05,159 --> 05:27:07,720
what Tikon Olham was? Because she's basically saying, like, I'm

4957
05:27:07,720 --> 05:27:09,720
a really good Christian because I want to bring about

4958
05:27:09,799 --> 05:27:13,319
this Christian eschatology, And isn't that really the same thing

4959
05:27:13,360 --> 05:27:17,599
as Tikon Olham Isn't there no difference between Christ coming

4960
05:27:17,720 --> 05:27:20,720
back to Earth and also I'm going to destroy all

4961
05:27:20,759 --> 05:27:24,479
your icons and overturn all of your world orders. It's like, actually,

4962
05:27:24,520 --> 05:27:27,360
I think there is a fundamental difference between what the

4963
05:27:27,439 --> 05:27:31,360
return of Christ means versus I'm literally going to destroy

4964
05:27:31,599 --> 05:27:38,599
every representation of gentile society that exists around you. When

4965
05:27:38,639 --> 05:27:41,520
you look at these, you know, the history of Jewish

4966
05:27:41,560 --> 05:27:47,599
intellectuals driving civil rights legislation or DEI or woke or whatever.

4967
05:27:48,279 --> 05:27:52,680
What are they doing if not masking their sort of

4968
05:27:53,119 --> 05:28:01,159
radical transgressive spirit via a asking it with this sort

4969
05:28:01,159 --> 05:28:09,159
of like liberal Christian morality or this liberal Enlightenment value systems.

4970
05:28:09,360 --> 05:28:12,360
It's actually difficult to look at some of these Freudian

4971
05:28:12,439 --> 05:28:18,599
ideas and not see them as dressed up vehicles for

4972
05:28:19,319 --> 05:28:20,720
basically Jewish impulses.

4973
05:28:24,400 --> 05:28:32,400
Speaker 1: Well, it's if you believe in the authoritarian personality. The

4974
05:28:32,439 --> 05:28:36,360
book from nineteen forty nine nineteen fifty commissioned by the

4975
05:28:36,439 --> 05:28:40,520
jew American Jewish Committee, put out by Adorno and the

4976
05:28:40,599 --> 05:28:46,119
Frankfurt School, which basically lays out how to destroy Anglo

4977
05:28:46,279 --> 05:28:51,840
society so that they'll never be fascism again. All of

4978
05:28:51,919 --> 05:28:56,000
this makes sense because if Jews are going to be

4979
05:28:56,240 --> 05:28:59,880
safe and no longer persecuted. You're either going to have

4980
05:29:00,159 --> 05:29:05,040
to turn the population into Jews, like instill Jewish values,

4981
05:29:05,200 --> 05:29:12,599
those Jewish values, you know of basically chaos of rebellion

4982
05:29:12,680 --> 05:29:22,040
against everything that historically Anglo Europeans held deer. You're either

4983
05:29:22,080 --> 05:29:24,479
going to have to do that or you're going to

4984
05:29:24,560 --> 05:29:27,360
have to figure out a way to sedate them, you know,

4985
05:29:27,439 --> 05:29:32,919
with pornography and and basically attack everything. And then you know,

4986
05:29:33,080 --> 05:29:35,840
in the end, if they start fighting back, then you

4987
05:29:36,040 --> 05:29:40,919
make it. You make antisemitism illegal, You start you know,

4988
05:29:41,319 --> 05:29:45,000
persecuting people who are you know, starting to ask the

4989
05:29:45,119 --> 05:29:48,240
Jewish question. And I mean, I think that's like the

4990
05:29:48,520 --> 05:29:52,040
last hundred years is pretty much a picture of that

4991
05:29:52,759 --> 05:29:59,560
of tkamol On basically destroying seeking to destroy Western culture

4992
05:30:00,240 --> 05:30:02,520
so that Jews can fit in, so that they can

4993
05:30:02,599 --> 05:30:06,319
blend in. So basically now everybody is, everybody has is

4994
05:30:06,439 --> 05:30:13,119
carrying their ideals. But also you know, they don't seem

4995
05:30:13,959 --> 05:30:17,279
as the outsider anymore, because that's been the problem. You know,

4996
05:30:17,319 --> 05:30:19,759
that was the problem in Russia. The problem in Russia

4997
05:30:19,959 --> 05:30:25,200
was it was like you had gigantic diaspora German you know,

4998
05:30:25,599 --> 05:30:28,720
in the in the seventeen eighteen hundreds, you had German

4999
05:30:29,479 --> 05:30:34,880
populations in Ukraine and they were thriving and they you know,

5000
05:30:35,000 --> 05:30:38,680
the Czar's leadership loved them. But then you had this

5001
05:30:38,880 --> 05:30:42,119
other group that just stuck out like a sore thumb

5002
05:30:42,240 --> 05:30:46,439
because they were so different than everyone else, and whenever

5003
05:30:46,520 --> 05:30:48,360
you tried to deal with them, it was like, no,

5004
05:30:48,599 --> 05:30:52,360
we have to remain different. And then when laws were

5005
05:30:52,479 --> 05:30:55,400
changed and the stettle was broken, the schettle system was

5006
05:30:55,439 --> 05:31:00,000
broken up, it was just this reaction of trying to

5007
05:31:00,240 --> 05:31:04,360
push back against that, trying to trying to keep your traditions,

5008
05:31:04,840 --> 05:31:07,799
but also this group of people who are escaping from

5009
05:31:08,240 --> 05:31:11,319
their traditions and they're like, Okay, now I can do

5010
05:31:11,520 --> 05:31:14,560
anything I want. And in order for me to be

5011
05:31:14,599 --> 05:31:16,680
able to do anything I want, I have to basically

5012
05:31:16,840 --> 05:31:20,080
create a world where people can do anything they want.

5013
05:31:21,560 --> 05:31:23,799
I mean, that's that's what it seems like to me.

5014
05:31:23,959 --> 05:31:27,279
That's of all the reading I've done, you know, two

5015
05:31:27,360 --> 05:31:33,479
hundred years together, Jews in the Economic Life by Sombart Shahaks,

5016
05:31:33,599 --> 05:31:38,279
Jewish History, Jewish Religion, You Gentiles, Maurice Samuels, it just

5017
05:31:38,400 --> 05:31:42,319
basically seems like the it's like we were this people

5018
05:31:42,680 --> 05:31:46,000
were these people who've always been on the outside. We

5019
05:31:46,319 --> 05:31:49,119
are always going to be on the outside. So we

5020
05:31:49,240 --> 05:31:52,799
have to create a society that looks like us, so

5021
05:31:52,919 --> 05:31:57,159
that we're no longer you know, we're no longer persecuted,

5022
05:31:57,639 --> 05:32:01,159
we're no longer seen as the outsider. And then you

5023
05:32:01,279 --> 05:32:03,360
throw into the fact that they get their own country

5024
05:32:03,400 --> 05:32:05,599
and they have nuclear weapons, and then that's a whole

5025
05:32:05,639 --> 05:32:07,040
different discussion.

5026
05:32:09,080 --> 05:32:17,159
Speaker 2: It's sort of like an impossible mission to set out upon, because,

5027
05:32:17,200 --> 05:32:21,319
as Laurent mentions towards the end of this essay, the

5028
05:32:22,319 --> 05:32:28,479
sort of self persecuting tendency within Jewish society. I mean,

5029
05:32:28,720 --> 05:32:34,680
we're living now in the most judaized version of the

5030
05:32:34,799 --> 05:32:38,680
United States that has ever existed, and the sense of

5031
05:32:38,840 --> 05:32:44,799
these people as being persecuted seems like it's more pronounced.

5032
05:32:45,319 --> 05:32:48,000
It's certainly more pronounced than in my forty years on

5033
05:32:48,080 --> 05:32:51,279
this planet or my twenty five years odd as a

5034
05:32:51,400 --> 05:32:57,880
thinking adult aware of global dynamics. I mean, they didn't

5035
05:32:57,919 --> 05:33:01,040
have this same oh my god, we're on the precipice

5036
05:33:01,080 --> 05:33:04,720
of Hitler two attitude in the nineteen nineties. They didn't

5037
05:33:04,759 --> 05:33:08,560
have it in the two thousands. It only started to

5038
05:33:08,639 --> 05:33:11,639
creep up in the twenty tens, now that we're halfway

5039
05:33:11,720 --> 05:33:13,000
through this decade.

5040
05:33:15,720 --> 05:33:18,119
Speaker 1: Because we have the we have the Internet, and we

5041
05:33:18,240 --> 05:33:22,759
have cameras on our phones, and information can be sent,

5042
05:33:23,319 --> 05:33:27,880
you know, can be sent instantaneously, and their people are

5043
05:33:28,000 --> 05:33:33,599
watching them basically incinerate populations. Yeah, it's I mean, how

5044
05:33:33,799 --> 05:33:36,240
is that not going? And then, you know, and that

5045
05:33:36,319 --> 05:33:39,599
would be bad enough if it was just this country

5046
05:33:40,240 --> 05:33:43,880
six thousand miles away, but then you have people who

5047
05:33:43,959 --> 05:33:47,439
are claiming this to be the same as those people

5048
05:33:47,520 --> 05:33:50,479
over there that are doing it in your own country,

5049
05:33:50,919 --> 05:33:54,479
who are defending it and calling you evil and calling

5050
05:33:54,520 --> 05:33:58,080
you an anti Semite and basically saying that you you've

5051
05:33:58,200 --> 05:34:03,080
given up your right to exist anymore if you criticize this,

5052
05:34:03,240 --> 05:34:05,880
if you say that it's evil, if you say that,

5053
05:34:06,080 --> 05:34:08,680
how can you do this? What is it inside of

5054
05:34:08,759 --> 05:34:14,880
you that allows you to do this? And it's just information.

5055
05:34:15,439 --> 05:34:18,240
That's the thing that changed in the nineteen nineties. You know,

5056
05:34:18,400 --> 05:34:21,520
they could they could go into Gaza or the West

5057
05:34:21,560 --> 05:34:24,279
Bank and they could do what they did, and the

5058
05:34:25,040 --> 05:34:27,080
world only knew what The New York Times and what

5059
05:34:27,240 --> 05:34:31,080
you know, a couple a couple cable news outlets and

5060
05:34:31,520 --> 05:34:35,560
the local news told them. But now that everybody can

5061
05:34:35,680 --> 05:34:38,880
see it and it's exposed, you know, and it's basically

5062
05:34:38,959 --> 05:34:42,119
it's like they're back in Russia. They're back in Russia

5063
05:34:42,159 --> 05:34:44,520
where they're amongst people who you know, it's like my

5064
05:34:45,240 --> 05:34:48,520
you know, my mother's family came from is from Galicia.

5065
05:34:48,639 --> 05:34:54,520
They're you know, Hungarian Hungarians and pollocks who were around

5066
05:34:54,599 --> 05:34:57,560
them in Galicia, and like they came here in like

5067
05:34:57,680 --> 05:35:01,000
nineteen ten and nineteen eleven, and and you know, I'm

5068
05:35:01,279 --> 05:35:04,200
growing up and I'm like, why is my grandmother, well

5069
05:35:04,479 --> 05:35:07,159
that's what I'm talking about, my great grandparents, And I'm thinking,

5070
05:35:07,200 --> 05:35:11,919
why is my grandmother hate Jewish people so much? And

5071
05:35:12,000 --> 05:35:15,639
it's like, oh yeah, because they because they lived in

5072
05:35:16,000 --> 05:35:18,560
they lived in basically what was Pale Settlement at the time,

5073
05:35:19,279 --> 05:35:21,439
and they got to see the way that they acted,

5074
05:35:21,880 --> 05:35:24,959
and they got to see how revolutionary they were, and

5075
05:35:25,000 --> 05:35:29,000
they got to see them assassinate like public officials and

5076
05:35:29,080 --> 05:35:33,759
everyone knew who was doing it. And that's what's happening now.

5077
05:35:33,880 --> 05:35:36,360
It was like back then they couldn't hide it because

5078
05:35:36,479 --> 05:35:39,000
you know, they were in one section and they stood

5079
05:35:39,040 --> 05:35:41,919
out like a sore thumb. And now everyone can see

5080
05:35:41,959 --> 05:35:44,159
what they're doing because we have the Internet and it's

5081
05:35:44,200 --> 05:35:48,919
blasted everywhere, and they start their own telegram channels and

5082
05:35:49,119 --> 05:35:54,599
post videos of them doing it, like the seventy two

5083
05:35:54,680 --> 05:35:57,759
Virgins channel that was run by IDF by Unit eighty

5084
05:35:57,799 --> 05:36:00,880
two hundred, and they were advertised what they were doing,

5085
05:36:02,000 --> 05:36:05,360
so let the world know. And it's like, okay, yeah,

5086
05:36:05,959 --> 05:36:08,599
well how do we how are we supposed to deal

5087
05:36:08,680 --> 05:36:12,799
with that? I mean, and if you ask questions, it's like, okay,

5088
05:36:12,880 --> 05:36:15,080
why are you doing this? Why you know, why are

5089
05:36:15,159 --> 05:36:17,959
you saying that? You know every time a baby dies

5090
05:36:18,080 --> 05:36:22,400
there was a terrorist hiding behind them. Yeah, It's like,

5091
05:36:22,479 --> 05:36:28,159
I mean, how do you You can't rational I can't rationalize.

5092
05:36:28,200 --> 05:36:32,000
You know, a terrorist in this country hiding under, you know,

5093
05:36:32,159 --> 05:36:36,000
a building in downtown New York and dropping a bomb

5094
05:36:36,080 --> 05:36:39,080
on that building to get to get one terrorist. I

5095
05:36:39,159 --> 05:36:41,720
don't see how that can. I don't see how you

5096
05:36:41,799 --> 05:36:45,560
can do that. But oh everybody in that building is evil?

5097
05:36:46,959 --> 05:36:52,400
What I mean you talk about? I mean, this goes

5098
05:36:52,479 --> 05:36:56,720
beyond gas lighting, This goes to Holy fuck. Do you

5099
05:36:56,840 --> 05:36:59,880
think do you think I'm I mean, how fucking low you?

5100
05:37:00,119 --> 05:37:00,159
Speaker 2: What?

5101
05:37:00,240 --> 05:37:00,880
Speaker 1: What do you think about?

5102
05:37:00,919 --> 05:37:01,680
Speaker 2: IQ is?

5103
05:37:04,560 --> 05:37:06,279
Speaker 1: I mean you think I'm i do think.

5104
05:37:07,520 --> 05:37:11,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I must not be as extremely online as I thought,

5105
05:37:11,279 --> 05:37:13,759
because I've never heard of this channel you mentioned, and

5106
05:37:13,840 --> 05:37:16,720
now I'm looking at a Jerusalem Post article about it,

5107
05:37:16,840 --> 05:37:23,159
and Holy Christ, that is that's yes, Uh, it's hard to.

5108
05:37:23,560 --> 05:37:26,520
Speaker 1: Their own fucking atrocities.

5109
05:37:27,680 --> 05:37:33,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine that that level of of of barbarism,

5110
05:37:33,599 --> 05:37:35,799
which is funny because we're told that they are the

5111
05:37:36,200 --> 05:37:39,639
outpost of Western democracy in the Middle East, and that's

5112
05:37:39,840 --> 05:37:43,680
that's barbarism. That makes you know, uh, what they did

5113
05:37:43,759 --> 05:37:47,840
take a daffy look like uh, you know, an elementary

5114
05:37:47,880 --> 05:37:50,279
school beat down, you know, like you're in the backyard,

5115
05:37:50,319 --> 05:37:53,840
you got roughed up behind the fucking slide or whatever. Like.

5116
05:37:54,040 --> 05:37:56,799
That's that's like child's play compared to the stuff that's

5117
05:37:56,840 --> 05:38:01,840
on there. Just to go back the section or the

5118
05:38:02,080 --> 05:38:08,000
excerpt you've read about the woman expressing guilt over circumcising

5119
05:38:08,080 --> 05:38:13,240
her son, I mean again, it's it's just the persecution

5120
05:38:13,479 --> 05:38:17,639
is coming from inside the house, is really I think

5121
05:38:17,720 --> 05:38:22,200
the punchline of this essay. Whatever we want to say

5122
05:38:22,200 --> 05:38:27,159
about Freud's genuine intentions or his genuine malice or not.

5123
05:38:27,479 --> 05:38:31,360
Maybe he was totally unconscious, Maybe there was no malice whatsoever.

5124
05:38:31,840 --> 05:38:34,680
Maybe he just was a wacky guy with a weird

5125
05:38:34,799 --> 05:38:37,279
sense of humor and which from time to time say

5126
05:38:37,479 --> 05:38:41,599
really condemned, you know, self condemning things to his peers

5127
05:38:41,880 --> 05:38:48,959
and whatever. Just the nature of that community. And they're,

5128
05:38:49,080 --> 05:38:52,599
like you said, their their need to separate themselves out

5129
05:38:52,759 --> 05:38:57,720
from every other population. Uh, they do that through barbarism,

5130
05:38:57,799 --> 05:39:01,959
they do that through terrorism. And you know, the sort

5131
05:39:02,000 --> 05:39:07,279
of tragedy say this trying to be you know, a

5132
05:39:07,319 --> 05:39:09,200
little bit careful with my language here. I mean, the

5133
05:39:09,319 --> 05:39:12,639
tragedy of it is that they are still human and

5134
05:39:13,200 --> 05:39:17,840
that they obviously are tortured by these things they do

5135
05:39:17,959 --> 05:39:21,599
to themselves that they like. On the one hand, they

5136
05:39:22,040 --> 05:39:25,360
want to do it, and they seem to consciously understand

5137
05:39:25,520 --> 05:39:31,240
the purpose of circumcising themselves, of doing the brits, of

5138
05:39:31,360 --> 05:39:34,680
doing all these things that they do, these ritualistic ways

5139
05:39:34,799 --> 05:39:38,880
of marking their identity and cohering their community, like they

5140
05:39:39,080 --> 05:39:41,880
understand the role that it functions, and they sort they

5141
05:39:41,919 --> 05:39:46,880
seem to understand the brutality of it, but they nonetheless

5142
05:39:48,360 --> 05:39:52,439
carry the toll of those consequences. And then they're out

5143
05:39:52,479 --> 05:39:56,040
in the world amongst us, you know, and and and

5144
05:39:56,159 --> 05:40:00,639
That's what makes sort of these Freudian defense mechanisms kind

5145
05:40:00,680 --> 05:40:05,159
of so significant, because if you, you know, imagine yourself

5146
05:40:05,319 --> 05:40:10,080
in the shoes of somebody who brutalized their infant son

5147
05:40:10,759 --> 05:40:14,000
because it was part of their their religion and part

5148
05:40:14,040 --> 05:40:16,279
of their identity to do that, and they had been

5149
05:40:16,360 --> 05:40:21,119
doing it for countless generations, and they know that it's brutalizing,

5150
05:40:21,639 --> 05:40:24,240
and the only way they can cope with it is

5151
05:40:24,360 --> 05:40:29,040
to sort of become like this cold, distant tyrant to

5152
05:40:29,159 --> 05:40:33,000
their own children. And then you're the child that grows

5153
05:40:33,080 --> 05:40:38,119
up like that. You grow up basically cattle prod you know,

5154
05:40:38,840 --> 05:40:44,200
within seven days of being born, and it's your parents

5155
05:40:44,880 --> 05:40:45,279
go ahead.

5156
05:40:45,720 --> 05:40:50,639
Speaker 1: It's worse than that, Okay, So not only are you

5157
05:40:50,680 --> 05:40:54,200
brought up that way, you're also brought up being told

5158
05:40:54,439 --> 05:40:58,799
that everybody wants to kill you, that historically everybody has

5159
05:40:58,840 --> 05:41:03,279
wanted to kill you, and you're told that your God's

5160
05:41:03,360 --> 05:41:08,240
chosen mm hm, that we are this special people. Now,

5161
05:41:08,799 --> 05:41:13,200
I'm not going to pretend like I've read, you know,

5162
05:41:14,000 --> 05:41:18,639
papers and books on narcissism, but to me, all of

5163
05:41:18,720 --> 05:41:23,000
those things combined seem to create soup like the greatest

5164
05:41:23,159 --> 05:41:25,560
army of super narcissists that have ever walked the planet.

5165
05:41:28,240 --> 05:41:31,200
Speaker 2: Complex narcissists too, because if you think about so just

5166
05:41:31,599 --> 05:41:33,919
I mean to put a little bit of technical technical

5167
05:41:34,000 --> 05:41:40,720
language on you, I mean, there are multiple kinds of narcissists,

5168
05:41:41,319 --> 05:41:48,520
and and and there's and it's interesting. I mean, on

5169
05:41:48,599 --> 05:41:52,520
the one hand, you have like the categorical personality disorder

5170
05:41:52,639 --> 05:41:58,360
of narcissism, but there's like grandiose narcissists, which is to say,

5171
05:41:58,479 --> 05:42:01,799
overt narcissists. That's like the kind of stereotype that we

5172
05:42:01,880 --> 05:42:04,040
all have in our mind of like the guy who

5173
05:42:04,119 --> 05:42:06,240
gets out in front of the crowd to be the

5174
05:42:06,319 --> 05:42:08,880
big man, you know, That's what we all tend to

5175
05:42:08,880 --> 05:42:14,799
think of as narcissists. But then there's communal narcissists. There's

5176
05:42:15,080 --> 05:42:23,759
antagonistic narcissists. There are malignant narcissists, covert narcissists, and it

5177
05:42:23,840 --> 05:42:30,080
seems like in any given moment, an afflicted Jewish person

5178
05:42:30,319 --> 05:42:34,040
can kind of like oscillate between all of them. They

5179
05:42:34,080 --> 05:42:38,720
are the grand standing moralizer or the grand standing like

5180
05:42:39,159 --> 05:42:42,279
I am a superhero. But then there's also like the

5181
05:42:42,560 --> 05:42:46,639
like Jonathan Green Black type of shrinking back, where anything

5182
05:42:46,759 --> 05:42:50,040
you do, anything you say is an attack on me

5183
05:42:50,520 --> 05:42:54,000
makes me feel small, makes me feel like you're being punitive.

5184
05:42:56,959 --> 05:43:00,599
The type of narcissists where you know, like the social

5185
05:43:00,680 --> 05:43:05,080
worker or the community organizer or the you know, social

5186
05:43:05,319 --> 05:43:09,599
justice activist, where they're masking their narcissism in this kind

5187
05:43:09,639 --> 05:43:16,080
of grand, almost christlike manner of being everything to everyone.

5188
05:43:16,319 --> 05:43:21,520
I mean, they they seem to like hit every flavor

5189
05:43:21,680 --> 05:43:28,200
of narcissism imaginable and that almost I mean, this is

5190
05:43:28,240 --> 05:43:29,479
one of the things where if you want to get

5191
05:43:29,599 --> 05:43:32,159
racist about your psychology, you have to take a step

5192
05:43:32,240 --> 05:43:36,479
back and say, like, Okay, is narcissist a racial type

5193
05:43:36,880 --> 05:43:40,759
before it's even a psychological type. And if it's a

5194
05:43:40,880 --> 05:43:45,840
racial type, then how do you even categorize narcissism as

5195
05:43:45,880 --> 05:43:53,319
a sort of general psychological tendency when it looks different

5196
05:43:53,400 --> 05:43:57,000
from one group to the next, and even within one group,

5197
05:43:57,720 --> 05:44:02,479
it looks different based on the context, Like when you

5198
05:44:03,119 --> 05:44:07,520
sort of generalize narcissism to to like the whole of

5199
05:44:07,560 --> 05:44:11,000
the human species, Like the most common ones are like

5200
05:44:11,200 --> 05:44:14,560
the timid you know, I'm I feel bad about myself

5201
05:44:14,639 --> 05:44:18,439
and my narcissism is a is a cope versus the

5202
05:44:18,520 --> 05:44:23,360
sort of like strong narcissistic type where it's patholo, it's

5203
05:44:23,400 --> 05:44:27,080
a it's a the word I'm looking for, sort of

5204
05:44:27,279 --> 05:44:31,759
intractable personality style that always shows up in every situation.

5205
05:44:31,479 --> 05:44:31,799
Speaker 1: That they're in.

5206
05:44:32,279 --> 05:44:34,639
Speaker 2: It's like, those are the most common types of narcissisms

5207
05:44:34,680 --> 05:44:37,439
of narcissism that you see in the world. And maybe

5208
05:44:37,520 --> 05:44:40,759
you could say that's a sort of general tendency speaking

5209
05:44:40,840 --> 05:44:44,000
to whether you know people either have inflated sense of

5210
05:44:44,080 --> 05:44:47,520
self worth deflated sense of self worth, but Jews have

5211
05:44:47,639 --> 05:44:54,360
this sort of like complex narcissism that is that again,

5212
05:44:54,439 --> 05:44:59,799
it defies generalizing to a to the level of a

5213
05:45:00,080 --> 05:45:01,119
universal human condition.

5214
05:45:05,439 --> 05:45:10,520
Speaker 1: Let's leave it there. Please promote you have you have books,

5215
05:45:10,599 --> 05:45:12,400
you have yes, please promote.

5216
05:45:13,360 --> 05:45:15,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well again, thanks for having me on. I love

5217
05:45:15,119 --> 05:45:16,639
talking to you. I wish I had more to offer

5218
05:45:16,759 --> 05:45:19,599
during the essay. I was just really wrapped up in

5219
05:45:20,040 --> 05:45:23,040
getting through that with you. Definitely thought provoking when we

5220
05:45:23,119 --> 05:45:25,439
got to the end of it. But check me out

5221
05:45:25,479 --> 05:45:28,159
on Antelope Hill Publishing dot com for my new book,

5222
05:45:28,479 --> 05:45:32,639
Intolerant Interpretations. Check out Imperium Press for my two previous books,

5223
05:45:33,439 --> 05:45:38,000
American Extremist and Understanding Conspiracy Theories. On Substack, I haven't

5224
05:45:38,000 --> 05:45:39,959
published anything in a while, and I might not for

5225
05:45:40,040 --> 05:45:42,159
a while because I'm busy doing a lot of shows

5226
05:45:42,279 --> 05:45:46,319
like with you Janeel dot substack dot com and on

5227
05:45:46,439 --> 05:45:49,520
Twitter or x. Still, Janeel, thank you so much.

5228
05:45:49,639 --> 05:45:49,880
Speaker 1: Pete.

5229
05:45:49,880 --> 05:45:52,200
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure. Hope your audience enjoys appreciate it.

5230
05:45:52,279 --> 05:45:53,720
Speaker 1: Josh yeah Man, thank you.