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True Murder with your host, 57 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:51.520 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening. 58 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:55.680 This episode of True Murder is brought to you by 59 00:02:56.039 --> 00:03:01.639 nature Box. Nature Box ship's tasty and guilt free snacks 60 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:05.960 right to your door with over one hundred flavors to 61 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:11.639 choose from, like asiago and cheddar cheese crisps, pistachio, power 62 00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:16.199 clusters and Big Island Pineapple. You'll never get bored of 63 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:21.520 snacking again. Try nature Box for free by going to 64 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:28.000 naturebox dot com slash true Murder. That's naturebox dot com 65 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:37.039 slash true Murder for a free trial Today. Misfit Jeremiah 66 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:42.319 Rodgers twenty one and Racist Devil worshiper Jonathan Lawrence twenty three, 67 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:45.840 we're serving time for petty crimes. When they met in 68 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:50.759 the Florida Penal System mental hospital, a friendship grew from 69 00:03:50.840 --> 00:03:54.879 their shared lust for sadistic brutality, and once released, they 70 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:59.879 teamed up to hunt human prey. In March nineteen ninety eight, 71 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:06.199 in Pensacola, Florida, while quietly watching TV, Leyton Smitherman was 72 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:10.639 shot in the back by assailants hiding outside his home. Amazingly, 73 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:14.360 he survived, not knowing that he had been chosen at 74 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:19.199 random by would be thrill killers. Their next target wasn't 75 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:24.040 so lucky. Justin Livingston twenty died from multiple stab wounds, 76 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.879 some more than six inches deep. The horror peaked on 77 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:31.920 May seventh, nineteen ninety nine, when Rogers went out on 78 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:37.600 a date with pretty Jennifer Robinson eighteen, with Lawrence tagging along. 79 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:41.399 The young woman was drugged and assaulted first by Rogers 80 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:47.160 then Lawrence, before Rogers shot her execution style. But the 81 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:51.120 worst was yet to come, an unspeakable act of mutilation 82 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:53.920 that followed in the bloody footsteps of one of the 83 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.079 most infamous serial killers of our time. The book that 84 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:03.160 we were profiling this evening is Flesh Collectors, Cannibalism and 85 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:07.759 Further Depravity on the Redneck Riviera with my special guest, 86 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:11.480 journalist and author and show favorite Fred Rosen. Welcome back 87 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:14.480 to the program. Thank you for agreeing to this interview. 88 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:15.240 Fred Rosen. 89 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:19.720 Well, Dan, it's always a pleasure to be with you. 90 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:20.800 How are you tonight. 91 00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:24.879 It's always a pleasure to speak with you again, Fred, 92 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:28.720 And I'm doing great. This is a wild, wild story 93 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:32.879 that come to expect it from you, but this is 94 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.639 one wild story. I've got to warn people right off 95 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:41.319 the hop without giving anything away. I always say this, 96 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:43.519 but we really don't want to give too much away 97 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:46.279 because there's a lot to give away here. Tell us 98 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:50.120 how you came to be in a position to write 99 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:52.759 this book, Flesh Collectors. 100 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:57.160 Well, what happened was I had already written a couple 101 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:01.759 of books about crime and Florida and I I've always 102 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:05.759 been attracted to the state, and I eventually discovered that 103 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:09.839 Florida has some rather interesting crimes, to put it mildly, 104 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:12.800 and I was looking for an idea. It was just 105 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:14.439 like one of those things, you know, where you're just 106 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:16.839 sitting there and you're saying, Okay, what's my next project 107 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:21.879 going to be, and I wound up going to I 108 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:24.480 want to say. I want to say I went online, 109 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:27.120 but this is like, you know, fifteen years ago, so 110 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:29.639 that would play me way ahead of the curve. But 111 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:33.160 whatever it was, whether it was online or I did 112 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:36.600 some you know, regular old fashioned research, you know, through 113 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:41.360 paper copies. I was looking for people on Florida's death 114 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:43.920 row and I was interested in what the stories might be, 115 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:47.399 and that's when I ran into Rogers and Lawrence. And 116 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:52.199 when I read it, I went, oh boy, and I 117 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:57.439 pitched it to my editor. And it's funny, I'm sitting 118 00:06:57.480 --> 00:06:59.759 here talking to you about it, and I can I 119 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:03.040 can see myself pitching to her. It was at the 120 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:07.560 Big Book Expo show that they have every year. It 121 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:10.519 floats around that year. It was in New York, and 122 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:14.519 I just talked to the editor there and she said, oh, yeah, 123 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.720 I really like that boom. Next thing, you know, I'm 124 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:20.879 working on the story. And then I you know, I 125 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:21.839 started getting into it. 126 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:26.839 Now. I really love the way you layled this. And 127 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:30.720 of course, of like so many of these incredible crimes 128 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.000 are in really unsuspecting or at least you would least 129 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:36.600 suspect kind of places. So tell us a little bit 130 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:40.240 about Milton, Florida, just to demonstrate when we talk about 131 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:42.920 Saul talk about Milton, Florida. 132 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:48.959 Milton, Florida is a small town in Florida Panhandle, which 133 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:53.079 is the northernmost part of the state. It's the part 134 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:57.360 of Florida that sort of juts out and it's known, 135 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:03.319 I discovered as the Redneck Riviera because right above Milton, 136 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:08.160 Florida and that section of the state is Alabama, and 137 00:08:08.439 --> 00:08:10.639 of course Alabama is next you know, it's next to 138 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:14.720 you know, Mississippi and so forth, and so people from 139 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:19.439 that area would go down to the Milton area, which 140 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:22.639 is right across the bay from Pensacola, and they call 141 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:25.439 that the Redneck Riviera because it's a heck of a 142 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.360 lot cheaper to go there than it is the Riviera 143 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:31.680 of in France. So it is it certainly gets a 144 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:36.960 certain amount of tourism from those states. And so that 145 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:42.000 was a very interesting bedan, you know, milieu, and it 146 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:47.440 was very different from the western part of the state 147 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:49.720 and the Tampa area that I was more familiar with. 148 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:58.000 This is very rural, very small, very very self contained. 149 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:03.720 Everybody knew everybody. There's the kind of place where well, 150 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.720 if somebody was a bad guy or somebody belonged to 151 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:12.360 a family that had problems, everybody knew about it and 152 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:15.559 talked about it. And that's what I discovered as I 153 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:18.399 got into it. And the Lawrence family was one of 154 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.679 those families. And so it's a very small, small place, 155 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:29.240 and it just was a very interesting place to go 156 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:33.600 down and do the interviews and so forth and discover 157 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:34.679 what really happened. 158 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:39.399 Yeah, you mentioned the Lawrence name, and you said that 159 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:42.639 in that area they would say there was a bad line. 160 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:45.320 You know, that would be the Lawrence name. So we'll 161 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.320 talk about the bad line a little bit later when 162 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:51.240 we have Todd hand discover a little bit about the 163 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:55.679 bad line. But let's talk about just the first meeting 164 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:59.320 you have is very very interesting. You have Jonathan Lawrence 165 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:05.320 and Jeremiah Rogers Lawrences, and so they meet around a 166 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:08.320 little party, I guess a little bonfire party. 167 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:13.039 And uh so, no, they tell us Lawrence Lawrence. May 168 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:17.759 I interrupted, said, Lawrence and Rodgers meet. They meet initially 169 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:23.440 in a place in Florida called the Bedbug Factory. Boy, Dan, 170 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:26.720 you can't make this stuff up. And the reason they 171 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.200 called the bedbug Factory is the Florida Hospital for the 172 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:35.279 criminally Insane. So we got too bad guys Chatoocie, right, 173 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.200 they got two bad guys who are in jail for 174 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:43.240 various essentially petty crime, but they got a screw loose 175 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:46.919 and they just hit it off, hit it off in 176 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:51.840 this in this, in this mental hospital for the criminally insane, 177 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:57.960 and eventually they are released. And h Lawrence is from 178 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:00.759 as as we said, he's from Milton in Florida. So 179 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:03.960 he goes home and his buddy Jeremiah comes with him, 180 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:07.159 and uh, you know, and they're sort of they sort 181 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:09.440 of link up, and they're they're looking, you know, they're 182 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.799 cruising for bruising. Basically, they're they're looking to make some 183 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:18.919 sort of a score. What's so frightening to me is 184 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:23.720 just the you know, the the that chance meeting of 185 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:28.200 these two Adharan personalities and what it's going to lead to. 186 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:30.279 That was what got. 187 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:37.200 Now, unlike the way you lay out the book, Let's 188 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:42.039 talk about Jonathan Lawrence first and tell us a little 189 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:46.120 bit about his upbringing so we can introduce these two 190 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:48.000 main characters here. 191 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:53.679 Well, mister Lawrence came from a family where there are 192 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:56.879 a number of people involved a number of people in 193 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:04.480 the family that were of a criminal najor and he 194 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:08.679 he was the He was brought up without the kind 195 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:13.720 of boundaries one would hope to have, and he got 196 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:16.919 into a lot of problems, you know, early in his 197 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:22.840 in his life as a teenager, and that's what eventually 198 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:26.879 will leave him to uh go to prison and eventually 199 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:31.279 get over to the hospital for the criminally insane. The 200 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:36.960 problem is to Rogers, not that mister Rogers volks, but 201 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:42.480 this mister Rogers is they're both psychopaths. So you've got 202 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:46.600 two psychopaths that see something in each other, and it's 203 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:49.559 it's another one of those situations where you have two killers. 204 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:54.559 And I think to myself about about the Perry Smith 205 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.840 and Dick Hickock, the killers of of in Cold Blood, 206 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:03.320 who when they link up, and it's essentially it's almost 207 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:08.240 like they make one criminal personality, and that leads to 208 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:11.639 the murders in Cold Blood and the same thing with 209 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:19.200 Chris here So and mister Rogers, Jeremiah Rodgers, he had 210 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:23.320 gone to UH prison. He put some oh it was 211 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:28.039 I believe it was racist graffiti, some anti anti Semitic graffiti, 212 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.559 that sort of thing. He put that on buildings and 213 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:38.000 so forth, and other petty crimes. And he also didn't 214 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.279 come from the kind of background where he was given 215 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:45.080 any sort of boundaries by his parents. And you know, 216 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:47.519 I probably sound like some sort of fundamental with but 217 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:50.120 it's true, you know. I mean, if you've got to 218 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.279 have those boundaries, you've got to be taught right from wrong. 219 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:58.600 And quite frankly, Dan, I believe that you also have 220 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.879 to have heroes in your life and people that you 221 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:05.159 can look up to, that you can admire and that 222 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:09.399 you can emulate, and whose values you will emulate. And unfortunately, 223 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:14.919 both of these individuals were not around people who were 224 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:21.120 of that nature who could give them proper values and 225 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:25.120 Bbrow models for them. And of course we again we 226 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:30.480 see this continually with criminal personalities. As you know, it's 227 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:33.639 a commonality I would certainly say with this kind of 228 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.840 you know, with violent crime, and the only way to 229 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:42.879 mediate it is to recognize it as it was when 230 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.480 they were in prison. But what do you do when 231 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:50.799 someone has a certain sentence and that they you know, 232 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:54.039 however many years it might be, and then they get 233 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:57.480 to the limit of it and they seem to be okay, 234 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.559 if you're the therapist, what do you do. You can't 235 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.559 just keep somebody. You know, we we we live, we 236 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.440 all live in a democracy. You have to have a 237 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:10.000 reason to keep someone behind bars. So even though you 238 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:14.960 think something can happen, this isn't the you know, that's 239 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:17.600 that that TV show person of Interest, you know, where 240 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:20.240 you can stop a crime in advance. You know, those 241 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:25.759 things don't happen. So uh So, as a result of 242 00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:28.879 their lack of I would certainly say of the lack 243 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.679 of proper role models were growing up, they wind up 244 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:38.200 going the wrong way. But again, up until the time 245 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:41.799 they get out of the bed buck factory, they haven't. 246 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:48.320 They haven't you know, hurt anybody physically. Yet that's all 247 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.120 yet to come. It builds, and it builds. 248 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:58.279 One interesting thing that I just wanted to point out, 249 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.399 though it's revealed later in the book, though, that John 250 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:05.240 was witnessed to one of his other brothers just fooling 251 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:08.200 around with a gun and blew his other brother's head off. 252 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:15.360 Yes, yes, that John was a witness the one brother. 253 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:17.840 He had a couple of other brothers, the two other 254 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.080 brothers brother and he sold one of them falling around 255 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:22.679 with a gun, and it goes up by accident and 256 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.360 kills the other brother. Now that's got to be an incredibly, 257 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:32.960 incredibly traumatic event. But there's one thing that I keep 258 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:35.639 thinking about then, and you know, please weigh in on 259 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:40.240 this too, which is as I go through these the 260 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:44.960 personalities of the criminals that I've written about and certainly 261 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:48.360 others have and that we read about it all the time, 262 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:52.399 the one thing I always think about is this, no 263 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:57.639 matter what hand, bad hand, your dealt in life, you 264 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:02.639 get a choice at some point, always a choice between 265 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:06.359 down the road of criminality and especially going down the 266 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:10.519 road of murder and not. And so for every individual 267 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:17.640 who's who's seen a brother or another relative accidentally killed 268 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.720 by a firearm, for example, well you can have ten 269 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:23.960 people like that and maybe one turns out bad. You 270 00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:27.759 see what I'm saying. People make a decision about what 271 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:31.680 they're going to do at some point, somebody, if you've 272 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:34.400 got that gun in your hand, you make a decision. 273 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:37.839 Unless it's a self defense situation, and what we're talking about, 274 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:39.720 you make a decision whether you're gonna pull that trigger. 275 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:44.279 And certainly that's that's that's what happens here. These are 276 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:47.200 very very very conscious decisions. 277 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:53.920 Now you talk about these conscious decisions. And again this 278 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:57.720 is it's revealed later by Todd Hand, the detective that 279 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:02.079 does this investigation. But for our audience to learn the 280 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.839 characters of these two killers, what is some of the 281 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:10.519 things that are influencing these young impressionable minds. Not to 282 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:14.240 give them them any excuse whatsoever, but what are the 283 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:17.119 kinds of things that these guys are doing. This is 284 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:20.839 not I mean, young people could do video games and 285 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:22.240 you could have a lot of things. But tell us 286 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:24.599 about some of the literature and some of the evidence 287 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:26.720 that there was a little bit We're a lot more 288 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:32.759 going on psychologically and otherwise in terms of murderous thoughts 289 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:36.680 with these guys. Literature and choice of things to view 290 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:38.079 and consume. 291 00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:45.400 Well, again, it's indicative of the personalities involved. There was 292 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:50.480 a certain amount of Oh boy, there was a certain 293 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:55.200 amount of certainly Satanism, you know, devil worshiping, that sort 294 00:18:55.240 --> 00:19:02.119 of thing. Mister Lawrence have a thing for collecting books 295 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:11.480 about anatomy, curiously, and that was very very curious. You 296 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.160 know what, this guy didn't seem to want to be 297 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:18.839 a doctor, so why is he collecting books about anatomy? 298 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:23.079 And he would you know, he'd go through the books, 299 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:25.640 and he would sort of check off things that he 300 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:30.519 was interested in. And I recall that one of the 301 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:39.000 books he was looking in particular at a diagram of 302 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:43.759 the muscles of the leg and I don't know, maybe 303 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:46.519 the guy, you know, if you look at it from 304 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.160 a distance, you could say, well, gee, maybe he's thinking 305 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.960 of being a north orthopedist or something like that. But 306 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:58.119 that was not where it was leading. I mean, it 307 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:04.160 was really not leading in direction. And so these guys 308 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:13.839 were very they were very much into stuff that most 309 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:18.200 normal people wouldn't be into in terms of the literature 310 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.119 that they would read. And again, you know, I would 311 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:26.720 emphasize that the whole the whole situation with worshiping Satan 312 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:28.960 and you know, and that sort of thing. And of 313 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:32.559 course I'm not giving away where the Anami books were about, 314 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:37.480 but perhaps that the listeners can deduce where we're going 315 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:37.799 with this. 316 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:42.519 Well, the other thing was too part of the literature 317 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.240 was that these guys were serious enough to have incredibly 318 00:20:46.279 --> 00:20:49.960 I've never seen this before, but memberships pending in the 319 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:55.440 KKK and you know, the United Satan International or something 320 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:59.240 like some official devil worship group. The guy hadn't filled 321 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:03.480 it out, but these and some interesting movies again, you know, 322 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:05.880 I mean horror movies. A lot of people like horror movies. 323 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:07.839 But we'll talk about that a little bit later because 324 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.559 there are a couple of movies that are again I 325 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:14.440 don't know if it's irony or just just incredible part 326 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.359 of the story that some of the movie choices that 327 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:21.880 they do during this incredible story. So let's we basically 328 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:25.119 know that these guys after. You know, what's interesting too 329 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:28.079 is the length of time they got for their petty crimes. 330 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:30.440 Four years and four and a half years. I was 331 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:35.079 pretty surprised. But anyway, they meet in this hospital, they 332 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:39.079 have this in common, they join up, and then in 333 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:42.960 your book we have them as I mentioned, at this party, 334 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:46.160 and I guess it's it's time for these guys to 335 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:50.880 put some of their fantasies into play. So we learn about, yeah, 336 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:55.680 Jonathan Jonathan's cousin which is named Justin, and tell us 337 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.000 a little bit about Justin and his and his disability 338 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:04.319 and his relationship with Jonathan, Lawrence Sure and is Rogers Fellow. 339 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:09.680 Well, they're cousins. Justin as a younger cousin. Justin has 340 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:14.119 some learning disabilities, but he is a high school graduate. 341 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:17.599 He's about I believe he's nineteen at the time, and 342 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.559 he was a very nice guy walking around the neighborhood 343 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:23.759 and open. He talked to everybody. Everybody liked them. He 344 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:29.039 would go over to his cousin to hang out. He'd 345 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:33.160 go over to to Lawrence's and hang out and he 346 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:36.119 would watch TV, whatever it might be. They'd have a beer, 347 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:42.079 they smoke joint, whatever it might be. And Rogers began 348 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:51.160 to look at him in a very as a lower 349 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:55.880 order of life. He looked at him as somebody who 350 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:02.799 was expendable, and he didn't like him very much. And 351 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:07.720 it would be certainly, it certainly would would be accurate 352 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:13.519 to say that Lawrence was not the greatest cousin in 353 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.079 the world. But you know, they they had whatever their 354 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:21.400 relationship was, and so he would go over and he'd 355 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:23.799 hang out with them and everything would be cool. At 356 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:27.200 least he thought everything would be cool, and so they had, 357 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:29.079 you know, it was it was a pretty good relationship. 358 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:34.359 But the thing is in that area, kids hang out 359 00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:39.079 in the back country and what they do is they'll 360 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:42.079 go into the into the back country and they'll have 361 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.680 a bonfire and they'll sit around and they'll talk and 362 00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:50.720 whatever else they might want to do. But the difference 363 00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:54.559 is that Lodges and Lines are talking about doing things 364 00:23:54.640 --> 00:24:00.799 other than going to school, dating girls, going to the movies, 365 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.640 listening to music, whatever it might be. They're talking about 366 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:09.440 other things that there's something inside them that seek that's 367 00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:15.039 pushing them to commit a crime, to commit a murder, 368 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:18.240 to see what it's like. In fact, in some ways, 369 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:20.200 and I mentioned this in the book, they reminded me 370 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:25.000 of Leopold and Low, the famous Chicago thrill killers they 371 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:27.160 would get. They felt that they were going to get 372 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:31.519 a big thrill out of it. I can't I can't 373 00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:34.319 relate to it, obviously, and I'm sure most people can't. 374 00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:37.599 But we're dealing with a barren, psychopathic personality. So they 375 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:39.599 think that it's going to be a really cool thing 376 00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:39.920 to do. 377 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:47.759 Now, the plan is is that they want to deal 378 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:51.359 with again. You say, Rogers is thinking this guy's a mooch. 379 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:55.200 He's coming over bumbing cigarettes and he's just a bum 380 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:59.400 me anyway. But obviously and his cousin are in on 381 00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:02.599 this plan. And and so the plan is that Jonathan 382 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:08.160 has an upcoming birthday, so they call Jonathan, calls his 383 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:11.319 cousin Justin and tells him about the birthday party. So 384 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.279 take it from there. What what does does he tell 385 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:19.200 us about this birthday party and the plan, Well. 386 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:25.880 The plan the player, well the birthday, the birthday party 387 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:31.359 is the idea is to is to lure him over 388 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:36.200 for a birthday party. Right, and then they have. 389 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:45.440 Okay, round two, name something that's not boring laundry, computer solitaire. 390 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:53.079 Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for Chumbu Casino. That's right, 391 00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:56.200 chumbacasino dot com as over one hundred casino style games 392 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.200 joined today and the plan for free for your chance 393 00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:03.200 to redeem some serious prizes. Casino dot com. 394 00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:11.240 Have something in mind, and what they have in mind 395 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:18.480 is murder, and they planted out so that they lure 396 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:24.519 him in this particular section of Milton, Florida. Again, it's 397 00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:30.079 across the abandoned Air force Field, and so they wind 398 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:34.640 up going over there. And the thing I emphasize right 399 00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:38.400 now is that the Air Force because it's it's still 400 00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:42.599 with the property of the United States government, it's federal land. 401 00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:47.079