WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:03.759 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show. 2 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:08.119 Hey, Dan Thomas, doing well man, Thanks for thanks for 3 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:08.640 hosting me. 4 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:13.519 As always, of course I'm going to start something new here, 5 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:17.359 don't really uh know, have an idea of how many 6 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.640 episodes you have in mind for this, But this is 7 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:24.920 a pretty big topic and a requested topic. So Operation Gladio. 8 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:29.600 Yeah, let's I suggested we play it by ear figuratively 9 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:32.560 and literally and see how long it takes us to 10 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:37.960 cover the material and not just what we consider and 11 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:41.119 you know, a more than an adequate capacity, but that the 12 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:44.679 subs like I want to hear about Ladio is one 13 00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:49.159 of these misunderstood things. You know, there's a great deal 14 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:54.679 of brutality of a of a particular sort. I mean 15 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:57.759 the Cold War. The Cold War was neither was a 16 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:01.039 condition of neither war nor peace. So even behind the 17 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:06.760 verbial lines of peace and divided Europe, you know, there 18 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:13.000 was a certain callousness that that that bled into contemplation 19 00:01:13.159 --> 00:01:18.439 of what was not just necessary but also reasonable. You know, 20 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:29.200 the moral metric shifted, okay, I mean obviously in in 21 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:33.400 Southeast Asia, what was very ine, late bare was that 22 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:37.959 you know, Okay, the face of modern warfare very much 23 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:47.280 reduces attrition to a to to you know, to a 24 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:52.719 subjective goal. You know, that must be coded in the 25 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:59.319 most contact terms possible and studied as to you know, 26 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:06.480 the impactfulness on victory odds. You know that quite literally 27 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:12.000 the manufacturer of human corpses facilitates or does not facilitate. 28 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:18.039 But again too, you know, there were like peace didn't 29 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:23.080 really reign anywhere in the Cold War that it was 30 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:28.879 a contested battle space, and obviously Europe proper, you know, 31 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:37.000 the the inner German border west, you know, thank god 32 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:39.719 that didn't become an active battle space. But as I'm 33 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:44.919 always citing, like William Odum, anyone who served, anyone who's 34 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:52.479 deployed there, you know, on either side, would relay that 35 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:54.879 like these were not peace conditioned. That felt like being 36 00:02:54.879 --> 00:02:58.240 at war. You know, it was not remotely like any 37 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:04.520 other you know, peace time posting. And people look at 38 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:10.000 something like Operation Gladi. Oh, they it's a gross affront, 39 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:15.080 I guess, you know, not just to their not not 40 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:18.919 just their they're they're kind of like moral conceptual horizon 41 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:23.639 just in absolute terms, but the idea that this kind 42 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:25.400 of thing could be carried out in their conditions of 43 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:28.919 peace is just like a bondable, too abominable to them. 44 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:38.599 And interestingly it's lumped in with the Phoenix program, which 45 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:41.919 obviously did what what ovidly was like, and you know, 46 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:49.280 a mac V SAG operation, and mac V SAG was 47 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:54.080 was very adjacent CIA in those days. It was a 48 00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:59.120 mac V SAG and US civilian intelligence operation, you know, 49 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:04.759 like the constant to to you know, direct action targeting 50 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:10.400 of discreet personages who construted the analf infrastructure. You know, 51 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:15.319 because you're fighting a non state actor, obviously the human 52 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.040 beings are the infrastructure of your ops. Okay, but you know, 53 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:27.439 people discussed it during obviously the the Gates Committee hearings, 54 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:30.800 the kind of guilded CIA, and people talk about it 55 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:36.480 today like, oh, this is what horrible overreach. It's it's 56 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:40.279 unbelievable America and Americans could do something like this, which 57 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:43.639 is really kind of preposterous, man, because that by definition, 58 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:48.920 you know, not just an asymmetrical war, but an ideological 59 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.920 war in a Cold War battlespace, you know, whereby on 60 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.360 top of everything else, you know, there's this kind of 61 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:06.199 profound difference between combatants, you know, culturally, racially, you know, 62 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:09.920 every other way Okay, I mean actually come as no 63 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:13.360 surprise anybody, and I don't want to go too far 64 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:18.160 a field, but yes, there were instances of corruption within 65 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:23.959 the Phoenix program. You know, some some army, the Army 66 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:26.519 of the Republic of Vietnam, like an intelligence officer like 67 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:28.879 got mad at some guy like carrying out with his wife, 68 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:30.399 and this guy ended up on the list and ended 69 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:35.879 up getting whacked. And that's horrible and it's indefensible. But 70 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:41.800 in absolute terms, you know, presuming a basic integrity of 71 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:46.240 the officers and NCOs involved, and I believe it was 72 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:50.000 exclusively officers and n CEOs, and particularly in those days 73 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:56.800 of special forces, that was a pretty rigidly maintained schema, 74 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:03.399 you know, had it been where it was, it was 75 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:07.879 implemented as intended. Not only was it highly effective in 76 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:13.120 my opinion, but it was far far, far more justifiable 77 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:17.839 and moral terms. You know. Then then deploying arc light raids, 78 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:20.000 you know that drop five and a pound bombs on 79 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.639 you know, on women, kids and old people in the 80 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:30.600 middle of a race, Patty. But you know, so when 81 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:37.680 people talk about Gladil as if they're discussing, you know, 82 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:41.800 something like a real life horror film you should look 83 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:44.399 at it in those terms that as aforementioned, you know, 84 00:06:44.519 --> 00:06:47.240 and or you consider in the same vein as people 85 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:50.240 do who suggested like the Pinochet regime, like the distilled 86 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.720 essence of evil. It's become this kind of bogey man, 87 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:58.160 this conceptual bogey man. For whatever reason. I speculate there's 88 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:03.360 some seminal text, whether by Howard Zander Chomsky and I 89 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:06.920 really Chomsky's done some worthwhile things, but I think even 90 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:10.360 his most ardent defenders, at least you know, who are 91 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:14.120 tuned into your content, would agree with me that, you know, 92 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:24.319 his uh, his objectivity was compromised by these deeply i'd argue, 93 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:30.920 almost theologically felt conceptual biases. But there's number there's a 94 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.920 number of things going on with thedio. Okay. First of all, 95 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:37.800 the Cold War was a totally abnormal conflict. You know, 96 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:41.879 I'm always making the point again and again. One of 97 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:46.240 the reasons it's completely foolhardy, you know, whether it's Lindsey 98 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.040 Graham or whether it's you know, the kind of pitiable uh, 99 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:53.680 you know, seing to be former President Biden talking about 100 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:56.920 like you know, Putin not not not Russia, Putin, like 101 00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:00.360 he's not gonna stop in Ukraine, He's gonna Poland like this, 102 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:05.279 but like like this this idea that states, you know, 103 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:07.959 like mad men just kind of somehow, by accident of 104 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:14.000 faith or by guile and ruthlessness, you capture apparatus of 105 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:18.120 space and proceed like capture land like somehow like the 106 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:21.600 more like, if you collect enough fertile women and sore 107 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:24.160 like can grow like sortum or something like, you win, 108 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:26.920 like I even know what their notion is. But even 109 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:34.159 that was obsolescence really even by the Second World War, 110 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:38.879 save for the fact of the need of for Germany 111 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:42.840 or Japan or one of the disadvantage kind of bat 112 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:44.919 and when I say disadvantage I mean vis a vis 113 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:50.000 their power potential too, you know, become a superpower. You know, yes, 114 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:57.159 growth from and and is the is the basis of 115 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:02.559 political and military challenges which become synonymous and and discreete 116 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:06.039 and and totally unusual ways and such conditions. But also 117 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:09.360 like like Laban drom even if you to wholy reject outright, 118 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.600 you know, the kind of national socialist view of of 119 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.039 of blutes and ross and everything else. I mean that 120 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:25.679 that's there were that was that the twentieth century was uh, 121 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:30.279 you know. Essentially it was it was the grand clash 122 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:34.960 of uh, it was the grand class of civilizations to 123 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:43.080 determine like what globalism would be. Okay, So once the 124 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:48.240 Cold War said it in earnest, you know, your your ops, 125 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:51.639 you were fighting your ops because they'd become the standard 126 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:57.960 bearers of of of of an idea. And America was 127 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:01.519 always kind of returning the serve to the con immunists 128 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:07.960 because that both that that conceptual environment as well as 129 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:14.159 you know, what military imperatives were prioritized within that paradigm. 130 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:17.879 You know that it was it was, it was, it was. 131 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:24.000 It was the Warsaw Pact, and they're adjacent elements, you know, 132 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:31.840 who are the ones pursuing a revolutionary imperative? So, I mean, uh, 133 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:34.159 that was the problem, and that was one of that. 134 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:37.960 That was one of George Kennan's points, you know in uh, 135 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:42.039 in the Long Memo or whatever. You It's it's not that, 136 00:10:42.159 --> 00:10:44.399 you know, we we've got to challenge the Soviet Union 137 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:48.519 and Warsaw Pact for every ancient ground. It's that we've 138 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:50.240 got to put ourselves in a position and we're not 139 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:59.840 simply reacting and returning to serve. You know, Now, how 140 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:05.600 do you do that if again, you're you're ops are 141 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:11.480 the standard bearers of an idea, you know, and really 142 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:17.919 your victory metric to accomplish global domination, destroy all competing ideologies, 143 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:26.120 you know, assimilate people into this world society essentially, you know, 144 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:35.039 that was envisioned by the Nuremberg you know ideology. But 145 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.840 you know, obviously the Soviet Union was the concord of 146 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:42.559 the United States and the Soviet Union. They'd totally falling apart. 147 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:47.120 So any future victory scenario would entail the United States 148 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.879 basically inheriting the mantle of what was envisioned, you know, 149 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:57.559 by the Nuremberg ideological program. But the way that you know, 150 00:11:57.600 --> 00:11:59.799 the way that you win that is by eradicating the 151 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:05.320 me idea and in underconniction of the act of war 152 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:10.879 that consues the eradication of humans who are the standard 153 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:18.360 bearers of you know, the enemy idea, such that you know, 154 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:24.200 along the variety of criteria or perhaps even just one 155 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:31.559 singular distinctively resilient criteria, that they can't be re educated 156 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:36.159 or somehow like assimilated into a new paradigm. Okay, obviously 157 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:42.600 this has implications for you know, the the absolute enmity 158 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:49.159 between the the Reich and and European Jewry, such that 159 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:54.960 European jury who was a self conscious, self identified political actor. 160 00:12:57.240 --> 00:12:59.639 But I that's a bit outside the scope of we're 161 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:05.000 talking about. But there's complications that were emergent here that 162 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:11.879 must be considered within those realities are just explicated, Okay, 163 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:18.279 and this is very important now interestingly, and perhaps this 164 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:25.080 won't surprise anybody, you know, really the pioneers of political warfare, 165 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:32.120 as you know, from the side of you know, the 166 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:37.120 colonialist power or kind of perspective of you know, the 167 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:43.519 more powerful combatant or if you will, you know, the 168 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:50.080 party combatant who like America, who is you know, perpetually 169 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:55.200 returning to serve when op for decided to act. You know, 170 00:13:55.679 --> 00:14:00.039 the United Kingdom really kind of perfected what became a 171 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:08.600 symmetrical warfare doctrine and political warfare doctrine. Okay, we're talking 172 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:12.240 about Operation Banner and how Frank Kitson, you know, in 173 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:15.200 Northern Ireland, especially owing to our viewing of resurrection Man 174 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:23.000 Frank Kitsen, one of his I mean, basically the key 175 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:29.159 takeaway from his kind of operational theory, if it can 176 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:32.039 be distilled down to one kind of core principle on 177 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:36.200 how to wage war against an insurgency is you've got 178 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:38.399 to create a counter gang. But you've got to do 179 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:42.200 this in some way. It's basically organic, Okay. You know, 180 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:43.919 you've got to work with what the Germans called the 181 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:47.279 mentioned material that's on the ground. You've got to sort 182 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:52.799 of mold them. And they're political and military and sceptual 183 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:58.720 horizon around what's instinctively already present, you know, and you've 184 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:02.399 got to sort of transform the energies into something that's 185 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:08.679 you know, deadly er, more efficient, more military with the 186 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:14.879 capital m you know, and more workable in integrated command capacity. 187 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:20.000 You know, then would just kind of be there, you know, 188 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:28.879 like autocatonically or whatever. And of course Kits and uh, 189 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:33.200 you know, despite the fact that he was only the 190 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:36.639 commander on the ground in an operation Banner and Northern 191 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:42.879 Ireland for about two or three years, that conflict model 192 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:47.159 endured the duration of hostilities. And I've made the point 193 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:55.480 again and again that you know, when when the provisional 194 00:15:55.559 --> 00:16:02.559 IRA and adjacent Republican groupings and others, what insists that 195 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:08.200 there was for formal collusion underway between the British security 196 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:13.399 element and loyalists. That was true. Okay, Now that doesn't 197 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:17.600 mean that, you know, Frank Kitson got together and hired 198 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:19.960 some mercenary types and said, okay, you're now the Ulster 199 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.320 Volunteer Force, you know, or you're now ready and commando. 200 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.679 It was nothing like that. Like what they did was 201 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:29.440 they looked at what they looked at what was already 202 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:34.399 developing on the ground. You know, in uh, you know, 203 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:39.440 the the sectarian war in the street where like literal 204 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:44.879 battle lions are being established between you know, sectarian living 205 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.799 between living spaces based on sectarian criteria, and you had 206 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:55.600 these militious just spontaneously forming, you know. So they began approaching, 207 00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:02.000 you know, guys like Gusty Spence, you know, who was 208 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:07.839 indispensable and the the the recreation of the Ulster Volunteer 209 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:11.440 Force in nineteen sixty six. Spence a certain combat in 210 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:15.799 Greece with the British Army. Okay, the UVF was always 211 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:19.480 kind of the share punk of loyalism, you know. The 212 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:23.119 UDA was this kind of like mass vigilante movement which 213 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:27.240 wasn't out in Hill ninety two, but UFF which was 214 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:32.440 technically like the their their direct action wing that was 215 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:37.640 very very very much cultivated by British intelligence and military elements. Okay, 216 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:44.079 and by by nineteen ninety three, loyalists were out killing 217 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:48.279 the IRA, you know, Suddenly, like it just became very 218 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:53.920 very good at targeting people who were either you know, 219 00:17:55.160 --> 00:18:02.400 ir provisional IRA members or you know, shin Fein representatives 220 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.559 or social democrats they wanted dead for whatever reason. Like 221 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:09.319 suddenly loyals became very very good at what they did. Okay, 222 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:11.759 I mean no means like saying like what they did 223 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:14.920 was good. But when the bound of rationality, you know, 224 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:20.079 and that Kitten's own point was look, you know, and 225 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:22.480 he was comparing in punitive terms with the British do 226 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:24.599 things the Americans and the Germans. He's like, you know, 227 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:27.759 you don't, you don't bring just more and more firepower 228 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:33.599 to bear, you know, against uh, against an insurgency. You know, 229 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:36.920 you're you're gonna kill a whole lot of people. You're 230 00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:40.920 gonna you know, many of whom are you know, women, kids, 231 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:45.680 old people and just you know, other people who are 232 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.319 you know, clearly noncombatants. And you're probably gonna you're probably 233 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:55.799 gonna create more insurgents than you annihilate. But also there's 234 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:58.920 got to be a kind of like menuet like ridiculously 235 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:04.440 that sounds between forces under arms, you know, for them 236 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:08.519 to for one hostile contact is made for them to 237 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:14.480 remain engaged and actually you know, push for victory, you know, 238 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:19.160 by by by you know, by the way you're killing 239 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:23.640 the enemy. You know, if you if you seek your 240 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.480 counter gang loose on like this gang of like Mau 241 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:30.240 Mau rebels, if you lose like the u v F 242 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:35.440 on the p I R A, when they make a contact, 243 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:38.119 they're gonna fight it out and slaughter each other in 244 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:43.319 a way that wouldn't happen if you know you, you 245 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:45.920 know you you you roll, you roll through cedar tanks 246 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.559 into the streets. When the IRA doesn't anything you don't like, 247 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:52.599 you know, they'll disappear literally into the ether. And then 248 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:55.440 the like lab of Satchel charge into like the turret hatch, 249 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:57.640 you know, like when your when one of your people, 250 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:02.480 like pops us head out for smoke. You know. And 251 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:07.319 there's something that's kind of understated, needing to mirror what 252 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:12.759 op for is in order to annihilate him in kind 253 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:21.240 of like the post conventional Westphalian landscape. Now, what was 254 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:24.119 gladiol and how does that had to do with like 255 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:33.039 anything else was talking about. Well, around nineteen fifty two 256 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.880 America in the UK, this is when they became really 257 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:41.519 truly kind of like fully indexed in military terms, not 258 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:45.200 not not just at the operational and kind of command 259 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:48.480 to control level and drilling with one another, you know, 260 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:53.079 like in the inner German border, you know, be at 261 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:56.519 the North German North German Plains, it was primarily the 262 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:00.319 British that Benelux State's responsibility and like the fold the 263 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:04.799 gap which is primarily American armored cavalies area of operation. 264 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:09.519 But they like like a conceptual indexing, like took a 265 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:11.359 route and I believe a lot of this ode to 266 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:16.759 the fact that by by January fifty two, obviously both 267 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:20.640 you know, American forces as well as you know, the 268 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:23.759 British Army had been engaged, you know, in a very 269 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:29.599 brutal conflict in Korea. Okay, their learning curve was expanding 270 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.960 in all kinds of ways relating to the study of war. Okay, 271 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:41.240 they developed this need within the minds of you know, 272 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:44.720 military analyst types on the civilian side and kind of 273 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:47.519 like think tank whiz kids or were ubiquitous in the 274 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:52.480 Cold War as we've talked about, but also you know 275 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:58.839 military officers, uh, you know, from from from company level upward, 276 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:02.799 you know, like we need, we need to develop some 277 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:09.759 kind of tactical strategic imperatives, you know, relating asymmetrical warfare 278 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:13.839 that allows you know, the the realization of you know, 279 00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:16.960 kind of the like the full spectrum of our of 280 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:23.759 our killing power, but again without without allowing politics to 281 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:28.519 creep into decision making, you know, in a in a 282 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.920 way that you know, it's kind of proven fatal in 283 00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:36.920 some key instances visa vis the managerial state, you know, 284 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:39.240 the like the experience of the Gall in Algeria, like 285 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:41.279 first and foremost, I mean I think the Gall was 286 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:43.440 not I don't think highly of them, but just in 287 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:48.319 purely objective terms, I mean, that's one example. But so 288 00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:54.960 in nineteen fifty two, and especially when you have the 289 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:59.920 experience of fighting the People's Liberation Army at China, you know, 290 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:03.839 and this this this kind of like endless ability of 291 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:10.480 them to absorb casualties, you know, and utilize combined arms 292 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.039 with Soviet help, and there was a lot of Soviet 293 00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:18.359 pilots flying sorties over Korea and kind of horrifyingly, a 294 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:21.680 number of American POWs ended up in the Soviet Union 295 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:26.880 and never returned. But because it may, you know, it 296 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:35.400 became clear that when war comes, and uh mind you 297 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:41.640 this was you know, uh, this was long before strategic 298 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:47.400 parody existed between the United States and Warsaw Packed, but 299 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:50.799 I mean it was also before the it's it was 300 00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:54.720 also like manned manned bombers were you know, the the 301 00:23:54.880 --> 00:24:02.039 zenith of of kind of strategic nuclear platforms. But the 302 00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:07.640 understanding was in basically every scenario game that you know, 303 00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:12.720 the Warsaw Packs is gonna overrun Europe. They're gonna smash that. 304 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:20.319 The National Volks Army, which emerged later, but in nineteen 305 00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:26.079 fifty two, a combination of Volks two Lights I were 306 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:30.319 the East German Army in all but name and group 307 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:34.160 of Soviet forces in Germany were as possible for the 308 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.920 operational sector I'm about to describe. After fifty six it 309 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:42.519 became the National Vokes Armies domain. They were gonna smash 310 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:49.519 through the inner German border, you know, which at times 311 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:52.440 at the time the Berlin Wall wasn't there. After the 312 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:56.000 Berlin Wall was created, Interestingly, there were these like weak 313 00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:59.880 points where like chargers could like blow holes you know, 314 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:02.960 so that the National volks Army can storm through with armor, 315 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:06.240 but because it may the understanding that was when war 316 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:13.599 came the National Volks Army They're gonna storm West Berlin. Well, 317 00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:24.799 you know, the warsaw packed overshoots Berlin assaults across the 318 00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:30.880 North German plane smashers to the Foldy Gap, almost certainly 319 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.839 utilizing chemical weapons and possibly taking the nuclear weapons if necessary, 320 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:43.599 and NATO at best get hold out for seventy two hours, 321 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:51.079 you know, until until the Soviet army reaches the Rhine. 322 00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:55.799 And then even if NATO is the capacity to reconstitute, 323 00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:59.160 it's not gonna have the forces and being in order 324 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.480 to prevent you know, a further Soviet push, you know, 325 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:07.799 thin Atlantic Ocean. Okay, so you're looking at a situation 326 00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:14.920 where okay, you know, and in these days, mind you, 327 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:20.640 the the catal is changed. For why this uh was 328 00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:26.400 considered in terms almost exclusively of conventional war fighting, save 329 00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:29.359 again for you know, the tactical deployment of chemical and 330 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:35.480 nuclear weapons and the real this this isn't this endured 331 00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:38.079 thirty years later, but for very different reason. Then we'll 332 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:43.680 get into that. But the fact isn't it basically it's 333 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:49.880 a basically conventional fight NAT, it was gonna be overrun 334 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:59.640 by the massive superiority of forces in being by warsaw PCTs. Okay, 335 00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:09.559 The only hope really of liberating the continents in these 336 00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:17.680 cases would be some sort of infrastructure, infrastructure in situ 337 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:23.559 that could be activated, you know, in order to generate 338 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:28.880 UH an insurgency, like a pre existing insurgency basically, and 339 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:31.599 this had never really been attempted before, unless you count 340 00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:33.759 the Viet Cong, but it's kind of a different thing. 341 00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:42.640 But you know, the understanding was that UH men were 342 00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:48.160 selected who are designated, you know, to be stay behind 343 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:57.440 elements all the way up to I believe battalion level. Arms, 344 00:27:57.440 --> 00:28:05.200 cachetes were hidden, escape were prepared. Politically, loyal civilians were 345 00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:13.000 recruited when TURN developed their own like social infrastructure around 346 00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:17.359 what was to become the core mission, an event of 347 00:28:17.559 --> 00:28:26.119 UH Soviet conquest. Plant the true truly clans, truly clandestine 348 00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:31.279 cells were established who made contact with one another, but 349 00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:36.519 didn't even make contact with each other's respective handlers, you know, 350 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:41.079 or with the above board but still highly secret GLADIO 351 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:51.079 designated elements and UH. This was largely devised by the 352 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:55.720 United Kings what was which during World War Two, what 353 00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:00.440 came to be called the United Kingdoms Special Operations Executive 354 00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:09.400 Okay Gladiol was largely created with the experience and development 355 00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:13.759 of former SEO officers. I had the pleasure a man 356 00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:16.559 who was a dear friend of my family and who 357 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:20.920 was actually one of them. That of going to the 358 00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:24.559 old university is because he taught there. His name was 359 00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:31.359 Uh Samuel Sarcesian. As he might have gleaned, he was Armenian. 360 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:38.839 His parents are Armenian immigrants. He was in the Special Forces. 361 00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:44.920 He was in a heavy action in Korea in the infantry, 362 00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:50.039 and he was one of the first true green Berets, 363 00:29:50.200 --> 00:29:52.279 you know, to pass the Q course and get the 364 00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:56.000 Green Berets. And why they recruit him, it wasn't just 365 00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.039 because he was an excellent comments soldiers. Because he was Armenian, 366 00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.160 you know, he could stay behind and blend in, you know, 367 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:11.799 And the earliest like special forces became something somewhat different 368 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:15.160 or it included that mission as well as like many 369 00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:22.359 other adjacent UH ones as time went on. But Uh, 370 00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:26.319 that really is the birth of special Forces. It's very 371 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:34.599 much a Cold War creature, you know. I'm not saying 372 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.160 that's bad or something. I actually think, I actually are 373 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:39.319 any Special Forces is in a lot better shape these 374 00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:42.599 days than I think so kind. It's got a lot 375 00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:44.079 of problems, but I don't want I don't want to 376 00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:49.720 upset the that our friends who are military guys, and 377 00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:52.880 they I mean, like are literal friends of hours. Like 378 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.599 I'm not talking like Randos and I. I they don't 379 00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.519 mean they know I hold them in tremendous respect. But 380 00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:08.559 its point being, uh, you know it, Uh, this was 381 00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:15.400 very much you know, it's taking very seriously. And not 382 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.119 only was like for example, like my my, my mentor 383 00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:23.200 and family friend, the Sarkesian, like not only was he 384 00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:28.200 a you know, Armenian immigrant stock, but uh the dialectical 385 00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:35.440 inflection he could affect that properly to fit in with locals. 386 00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:42.359 You know, this was very very sophisticated on operational terms, 387 00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:51.279 especially for the time. Now something interesting happened. It's always 388 00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:58.039 developed and the center of gladio because of the gladio 389 00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:05.920 was Italy. Okay, now now why Italy? You know Italy? 390 00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:12.000 Uh I maintained that, uh, the real it is the 391 00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:16.440 Marshall Plan. It wasn't it wasn't just uh it was. 392 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:19.079 It wasn't what Stalin said and just you know, kind 393 00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:23.279 of bind the Buddhist Republic to American debt or whatever like. Yeah, 394 00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:25.359 I mean that was like an added benefit. But I 395 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:27.480 mean the Buddhist Republic was done. I mean they were 396 00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:30.440 they were being more in the plan out of existence. 397 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:36.680 Like Italy on the other hand, just geostrategically as well 398 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:41.799 as in sheer economic terms for you know, a European 399 00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:45.960 zone of of commerce and industry. You know, they were 400 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:51.680 incredibly important. Okay, Italy had to be brought in the NATO. 401 00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:56.599 Italy also had to be repaired from the devastation it 402 00:32:56.680 --> 00:33:03.759 had suffered, you know, and throughout the fifties and sixties. 403 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.240 You know, it'll ended up becoming i think for a time, 404 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:10.960 you know, like the fifth largest economy in the world, 405 00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:17.440 you know it only also it never underwent a denacification 406 00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:22.640 process it Uh, there was still a very active communist 407 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:26.920 party there, you know that that didn't just participate and 408 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:33.200 challenge for seats, but they insulated themselves into coalition and 409 00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:39.440 governments regularly, you know. And on the other side you 410 00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:47.720 had openly fascist and national socialist parties that uh were 411 00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:51.240 rapidly they weren't just rabidly anti communists, they were rapidly 412 00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:54.480 anti Soviet. They still viewed the Soviet Union like as 413 00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:59.480 their ops. Okay, and I maintain, you know, the big 414 00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:02.279 you don't know. I mean, you're you're a learned guy, 415 00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:06.079 but some of this stuff is trivia. You know. YACKI 416 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:09.599 had a huge falling out with Moseley, and Moseley refused 417 00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:18.159 the publish imperium through the Union movement the brand because 418 00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:20.840 Mosley wasn't an arch cold warrior, you know, like one 419 00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:24.239 hundred and ten percent, And a lot of people are like, well, 420 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:26.840 he was trying to find his way back to respectability 421 00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:30.840 in British political life. I don't think that's the case. 422 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:31.960 I think he really believed that. 423 00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:37.039 Okay, Well, anybody who knows, anybody who knows what Mosley 424 00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:39.679 went through in the next you know, fifteen to twenty years, 425 00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:43.159 knows that he he was he knew he wasn't getting 426 00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:47.199 back into oh yeah, the main stream of politics. 427 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:49.320 Yeah, I mean, that's ridiculous what he was saying. I 428 00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:51.599 think he's gonna be a prime minister or something. I mean, 429 00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.880 like all the fair people thinking what it's uh. 430 00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:57.280 Yeah, there's video on YouTube of him in like nineteen 431 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.960 sixty two going into some British town to and their 432 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.599 people chasing him, trying to beat him. 433 00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:07.519 Yeah, it's a preposterous claim. And like who's he trying 434 00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:10.800 to impress? And it's like Mosley even in the even 435 00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:14.119 in the inter Warriors, like, uh, I mean, Mosley did 436 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:16.960 his own thing, and he was uh, he indexed very 437 00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:20.400 much with Hitler. But at the point he disagreed with 438 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:22.480 Hitler on and he was like open about it, I 439 00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:25.280 mean like and he yeah, he one of the reasons 440 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:27.159 is he's a hero of mine. He was very like 441 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:33.400 free thinking man. But so Italy being this back to 442 00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:39.519 where we were, Italy being Italy being ground Zery Gladio. Again, 443 00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.159 it wasn't just because the political the internal political situation, 444 00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:45.599 you know, the need to bring Italy back into the 445 00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:49.400 fold of Europe under his perannumber. You know what was 446 00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:52.920 then the European coal and Steel community, and you know, 447 00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:56.159 and the and to bringing up the snuff as as 448 00:35:56.199 --> 00:35:58.880 a real uh as a real you know, like regional 449 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:02.679 power into itself. But also you hadn't, Gladio, was you 450 00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:06.679 had You had a whole lot of very fit, very 451 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:12.800 committed fascist men of military age who had experience you 452 00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:15.800 know what I mean, these this is not that kind 453 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.079 of duty that just regular guys are gonna sign on for, 454 00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:23.760 you know, even if they're basically patriotic anti communists like 455 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:28.039 you need uh, like you need basically like like fascist 456 00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:33.239 jihadi for something like this. Okay, you know, and it's 457 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:35.559 also too you know, how do you how do you 458 00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:40.800 recruit men for for these roles? Do you? You don't just 459 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:42.440 like put an ad out, you know and like the 460 00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:46.800 them equivalent of you know, Craigslist or something, you know, 461 00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:48.920 like as it was in two thousand and six. You 462 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:53.239 don't uh, you know, you don't just uh, you know, 463 00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:55.159 you know, at the evening news, you know, just say like, 464 00:36:55.400 --> 00:36:57.800 you know, we're building a state behind fascist army. You know, 465 00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:59.679 would you look to be part of it? You know? 466 00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:05.159 They they had like you know, NATO uh intelligence as 467 00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:08.039 well as uh, you know, like the NATO's kind of 468 00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:14.559 commanding control element, which would have been at that point 469 00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:19.199 the supreme alleyed command in Europe. They had to basically 470 00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:22.639 which is why I brought up, you know, kissing this 471 00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:25.920 point on counter yangs. They basically had the index with 472 00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:31.679 you know, the fascist resistance that still existed there, and 473 00:37:31.719 --> 00:37:37.920 these national socialist guys who never changed their stripes and 474 00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:40.800 who were very very active. You know, you basically had 475 00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:44.800 index with them when some kind of trust sell them 476 00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:51.800 on the merits of the mission and you know, convinced 477 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:55.719 them to essentially start start training for this you know 478 00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:59.760 what was then a very like real contingency and we're 479 00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:04.480 gonna these people into cells you know, like a self 480 00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:08.159 stroke that's actually workable, that allows them, you know, to 481 00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:13.719 become habituated to their the command structure of uh of whatever. 482 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:17.920 I don't know the force levels would have been exactly, 483 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.760 but you know, whatever arm element they were part of. 484 00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.559 But also it got them habituated to drilling with one 485 00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:26.920 of you with another and all the all the kind 486 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:32.599 of psychosocial imperatives that one needs to cultivate if you're 487 00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:36.079 gonna send you know, what is called the military sociology, 488 00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:42.440 a primary group of men, you know, into action. But uh, 489 00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:46.800 a lot of this, you know a lot of people 490 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.320 didn't know about any of this. I mean people like 491 00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:52.719 my dad did, but like, uh, that to my dad, 492 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:54.599 so secret squirrel. But he was in a position to 493 00:38:54.639 --> 00:38:57.960 know about certain things that other people didn't. But the 494 00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:05.639 general public it really didn't know about the scope, breath 495 00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:09.440 and Purpose and Gladio until about October nineteen ninety, Okay, 496 00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:12.920 and that was very interesting because basically, like right about 497 00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:15.880 a year after the Energement border collapsed, a lot of 498 00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:21.880 these uh, a lot of these, a lot of these 499 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:24.320 kinds of like deep dark secrets of the Cold War 500 00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:27.320 wanally that way, we're just kind of like things that 501 00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:31.840 had been very eyes only like suddenly came to light. 502 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:33.639 I think the I think it's still the people who 503 00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:36.519 are in control of a lot of this data. They 504 00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:40.320 knew that this was very very rapidly you know, gonna 505 00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.320 be kind of censored and take out, taking out of circulation, 506 00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:46.000 which is exactly what happened, say this sense of like 507 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:50.679 it's now or never now. So in October nineteen ninety, 508 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.320 I'm gonna butcher this name and I'm so sorry, but 509 00:39:56.519 --> 00:40:08.000 uh Julie Androtti he issued for this series of revelations 510 00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:12.960 relating to the internal situation like of the Western Bloc, 511 00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:15.719 like pretty much from you know, the emergence in NATO 512 00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:21.119 and especially kind of it's the starting point was you know, 513 00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:25.519 mid Korean War, like when Gladio first became kind of 514 00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:30.000 you know became more than just sort of a you know, 515 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:34.400 like an abstract uh you know model banded about it 516 00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:44.679 among like war college types. Giulio Androtti, I think it 517 00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:48.360 was something of like an Italian and in hour man, 518 00:40:48.920 --> 00:40:54.360 but not quite I think it was. I think he 519 00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:56.639 was far more of a compelling person is I don't 520 00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:59.280 mean that negatively, but he My point is that he 521 00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:03.760 wasn't even considering the Italian situation he was in. He 522 00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:09.079 was unusual for a post post war European executive in 523 00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:12.840 DROUGHTI he was the forty first Prime Minister of Italy. 524 00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:24.039 He served in seven governments seventy two, seventy three, seventy six, 525 00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:29.639 seventy nine, nineteen eighty nine to ninety two. He was 526 00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:34.119 really and he was the leader of the primary organizer 527 00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:38.039 of the Christian Democrats from the earliest days. And here's 528 00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:41.920 the thing. People don't understand the Christian Democrats in Europe. 529 00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:45.719 They're not just like the Republicans of the Tories. They 530 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:52.599 were basically the Vatican Party in Italy to a lesser 531 00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:57.639 degree in Germany like after World War Two. Okay, they 532 00:41:57.639 --> 00:42:02.599 were genuinely conservative, were socially right wing. They had a 533 00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:06.880 very strong IDENTI vacation with the Catholic Church, and Catholic 534 00:42:08.199 --> 00:42:11.440 what alistair magendire, I guess we call virtue I Thics, 535 00:42:11.480 --> 00:42:13.880 although I'm sure they had I'm not Catholic and I'm 536 00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:16.480 no read Italian. I'm sure they had different sources to 537 00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:21.519 draw upon. But my point being the Christian Democrats, they 538 00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:28.880 they uh there there their heritage probably had more to 539 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:35.199 do uh with you know, the kind of political culture 540 00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:38.239 one had in Austria and the Inner War years than 541 00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:43.119 it did, you know, with with somebody like uh like 542 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:49.239 you know, like uh like like like Adaer Okay, for example. 543 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:55.199 Much as like I said, there there was some basic 544 00:42:55.280 --> 00:43:03.159 similarities and and Geordie had an inner thing uh perspective, 545 00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:09.519 and he he's viewed these days as probably the most 546 00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:15.519 powerful and prominent like political like executive political figure of 547 00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:19.639 uh of the Italian First Republic, you know, since you know, 548 00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:26.679 since nineteen forty five basically Okay, And I'm going so 549 00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:31.639 deep into his biography because it's essential understanding gladio okay, 550 00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:35.280 and you'll see why or like what I mean in 551 00:43:35.320 --> 00:43:41.679 a minute. He begins a protege of a man named 552 00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:50.920 Elsid de Geest Sperri, the Sperry became a member of 553 00:43:50.960 --> 00:44:01.239 the Parliament of a Trentino, which was a UH part 554 00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:06.239 of the Austrian reichstad It was one of these uh 555 00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:10.960 it was one of these Italian territories that was semi 556 00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:16.159 autonomous but was under the sovereignty of the Habsburg Empire. Okay, 557 00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:24.639 because Sperry began began the First World War is partitically neutral. 558 00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:33.400 He sympathized very very strongly with Pope Benedict and said basically, 559 00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:35.559 like you know, if you're if you're a good Catholic 560 00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:38.199 and you know, like a good Italian, you know you're 561 00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:44.000 you're gonna buy you know, Pope Benedicts, Uh, ultimately what 562 00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:48.920 were ultimately unsuccessful, you know, like but very well intentioned 563 00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:53.920 of Resince here everts towards peace. Carl the First of 564 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:59.679 Austria was another figure very much kind of like Index 565 00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:07.159 with this respective who uh whom you know who uh 566 00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:14.280 Ugus Berry saw, you know, I die with but Gaspari 567 00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:20.920 as time went on, became somewhat radicalized. Okay. In nineteen 568 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:23.880 nineteen he was one of the founders but became the 569 00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:31.800 Italian People's Party along with Luigi Sturzo. He served as 570 00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:35.719 a deputy in the Italian Parliament for a few years 571 00:45:35.719 --> 00:45:39.480 from twenty one to twenty four, which is obviously you know, 572 00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:48.079 the fascist ascendancy was nineteen twenty two. He was enthusiastic 573 00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:55.280 about support of his party, the PPI and UH the 574 00:45:55.400 --> 00:46:00.320 first UH government around their first kabinet Mussolini, because the 575 00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:04.440 way he viewed it, it was that you know, this is this, 576 00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:06.760 this is what we need to standing is of Bolshevism, 577 00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:09.519 because Bolshevism is going to destroy the Catholic Church and 578 00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:11.360 they're already you know, just like they're doing to the 579 00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:15.719 Orthodox Church. And he wasn't wrong, you know, and Mussolini's 580 00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:20.159 Moslene's relations to Catholicism was complicated. It was kind of 581 00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:24.559 like Charleston Moross okay, And it's hard for like, first 582 00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:26.719 of all, I don't believe Mosleini was an atheist, even 583 00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:29.920 though he wasn't you know, God fearing in the sense 584 00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:32.679 we're talking about. But it's when a si rumors put 585 00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:37.360 themselves and you know, kind of a twenty twentieth century 586 00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:42.840 modernist perspective, especially when shaped by the Great War, and 587 00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:48.800 you know, the kind of certainly humanizing paradigms like they're 588 00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:50.960 in all level of which seemed to mirror each other, 589 00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:57.000 and some sort of like grand constellation tailored the rob 590 00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:00.199 man of his ability to live othe his historical he 591 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:04.280 had as a discreet personality. It's not as like Marxist 592 00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:09.719 Pavelin or something. It's you know, they're very very much 593 00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:12.400 the core of the European right, like the true right, 594 00:47:12.519 --> 00:47:25.840 like thought in these terms. Yeah yeah, but uh as 595 00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:35.159 uh as Mussolin's grip kind of became absolute and unlike Hitler, 596 00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:45.679 who you know was a huge or a tremendous aspect 597 00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:50.639 of his ascendency oud uh you know, the strategics of 598 00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:56.320 of plebisites. You know, Mussolini was much more. There's not 599 00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:01.440 only called a personality on Mussolini in there. There definitely 600 00:48:01.480 --> 00:48:08.360 wasn't you know, uh, from the from from the center 601 00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:12.960 right to the to the truly fascist. You know, I 602 00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:16.920 mostly he had had a very strong mandate for a 603 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:26.320 twentieth century executive, but uh, he was prone to almost 604 00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:33.559 like quasi Leninists, you know, sort of utterances that then 605 00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:40.519 that henceforward just became the law. You know. He mostly 606 00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:53.920 mostly fundamentally, uh fundamentally altered the structural balance of power 607 00:48:54.039 --> 00:49:04.599 between the executive and and in the parliam and and 608 00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:09.079 and in the electoral system itself as well as the 609 00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:14.000 parliament was largely becoming someone gilded anyway by the Serrebral Law, 610 00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:19.440 which basically guaranteed like the National Fascist Party, you know, 611 00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:25.559 like a certain signage of cabinet seats, okay, so essentially 612 00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:33.639 became a one party state without you know, something like 613 00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:37.400 the Enabling Act to finesse it. And for the record too, 614 00:49:37.639 --> 00:49:41.239 and this is a subject for a different series or episode, 615 00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:48.960 but you know, Hitler didn't. Hitler didn't take the oath 616 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:54.519 of office as counselor, you know, and then or even 617 00:49:54.599 --> 00:49:56.840 later after you after the Enabling Act, you know, when 618 00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:01.360 he became a consulor and and fear of the German Reich, 619 00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:06.320 he didn't. He didn't something declare that like you know now, 620 00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:09.159 like you know, organized state are all you know, or 621 00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:16.000 all apparatus of the party, you know, and the internal 622 00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:22.920 police apparatus was very directly co opted by National Socialists 623 00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:26.159 and became an organ of the party, which is interesting 624 00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:30.599 of itself, but other than that, that's one of the 625 00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:32.840 reasons there was this kind of agonistic pluralism in the 626 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:37.559 Third Reich, where in some ways people didn't couldn't quite 627 00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:40.719 grasp like where you know, sort of like the state 628 00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:44.800 bureaucracy stops and the party bureaucracy began. Or you had 629 00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:50.400 you had organic government that literally had like an identical mandate, 630 00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:53.280 you know, but one was you know, like a branch 631 00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:55.599 of the s D which was accountal of the s S. 632 00:50:56.079 --> 00:51:01.239 Like another was you know, like a an internal security 633 00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:05.480 department that was you know, tied to the AD there, 634 00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:08.000 you know, which had absolutely no leg accountability to the 635 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:20.639 same chain of command. But the uh, what ultimately happened was, uh, 636 00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:25.280 these kinds of these kinds of like reform is by 637 00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:35.000 the by bully pulpit flexing like figuratively and literally. This 638 00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:39.199 led to this led a great deal of turmoil in 639 00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:43.559 the early years of the the National Fascist Party. And 640 00:51:43.639 --> 00:51:48.159 it's a single party rule, there's a great deal of 641 00:51:48.280 --> 00:51:55.239 violence against other parties would refuse to accept, uh you know, 642 00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:58.920 the serbral law and just kind of refuse will accept, 643 00:51:59.079 --> 00:52:03.960 you know, it'll dose a sort of self appointed mandate. 644 00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:14.079 This caused the PPI to this the fracture. Digas Ferry 645 00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:21.239 became uh he remained on as a secretary of a 646 00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:30.360 of the Anti Fascist faction that remained until November twenty 647 00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:36.400 November No. Twenty until until November nineteen twenty six. You know, 648 00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:39.079 in a true climate of kind of over violence and 649 00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:44.480 intimidation became the norm. You know, the the PPI was 650 00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:50.920 was just formly dissolved. You know. Gasperi himself was arrested 651 00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:57.920 in March of twenty seven. He did four years in prison. 652 00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:01.599 The Vatican negotiated a real lease, you know, which again 653 00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:09.360 as the indexing and the relationship between the Vatican and 654 00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:16.760 the Christian Democrats and their precursors, that's really important, you know, 655 00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:20.159 to understanding the politics the inner warriors nearly Cold War. 656 00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:30.920 But you know, he was, uh, he was after his 657 00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:36.679 release in nineteen twenty eight, he was basically unpersoned, you know. Yeah, 658 00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:40.679 he had deficuely finding employment. He was in serious financial difficulties. 659 00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:47.559 His uh, some of his church contacts, you know securit 660 00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:52.679 yim a job as a cataloger in the Vatican Library, 661 00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:55.239 which probably saved his life, and that's where he spent 662 00:53:55.280 --> 00:54:00.760 the next that in the next fourteen years until until 663 00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:05.719 the collapse of the of the Kingdom of Italy I mean, 664 00:54:05.920 --> 00:54:07.840 the Rum state in forty three, I mean the rum 665 00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:15.840 state of the Cellar Republic endured. But you know it's uh, 666 00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:22.119 the big contribution of Gaspari one of the major international 667 00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:27.920 one of the major international newspapers, which in those days 668 00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:33.559 a political newspaper, a new political newspaper having international circulation 669 00:54:33.719 --> 00:54:38.599 was a big deal. He wrote a column where this 670 00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:41.639 was in Ninete, this was in nineteen thirty four, I mean, 671 00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:46.039 when he had absolutely no love for the National Fascist Party, 672 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:52.360 but uh he uh he celebrated the defeat of the 673 00:54:52.760 --> 00:55:01.440 Social Democrats and uh in Austria we claim were you know, 674 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:08.039 on a on a mention of de christianizing Austria, and uh, 675 00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:12.320 you know that they were cobD allies of the Bolsheviks. 676 00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:15.360 And he see declared to knowing certain terms that the 677 00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:19.599 German Church that we you know in Italy we should 678 00:55:19.639 --> 00:55:23.199 follow example of the of the German Catholic Church, you know, 679 00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:26.239 and we should prefer knowing certain terms you know, national 680 00:55:26.280 --> 00:55:30.840 Socialism to Bolshevism, like Bolshevism is our is the mortal 681 00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:34.400 enemy of Christ and of the Catholic Church. So this 682 00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:37.719 is uh, you know, these these these alliances are more 683 00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:48.960 complicated than people will. You know. It's during uh, during 684 00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:54.159 World War two. This is one of the spirit has 685 00:55:54.199 --> 00:56:02.559 formally established the Christian Democrats. I think it was clear 686 00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:05.840 to me he saw the writing on the wall that 687 00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:09.039 you know, the Acts were going to lose the war. 688 00:56:11.360 --> 00:56:19.440 He published, uh, and deliberately limited circulation to uh what 689 00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:22.360 appears to be you know, like a handful of cadres 690 00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:27.599 that we trusted. The samounted to a program for the 691 00:56:27.639 --> 00:56:34.519 new Christian Democrat Party, and uh it was titled quite literally, 692 00:56:34.760 --> 00:56:44.079 you know, Ideas for Reconstruction. Okay, Gasperry. From that point on, 693 00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:46.639 you know, he was like the under He was the 694 00:56:46.719 --> 00:56:50.920 undisputed kind of han show. Not just the Christian Democrats, 695 00:56:50.920 --> 00:56:56.920 which were a new sort of constellation of of of 696 00:56:57.039 --> 00:57:03.039 political values contained in one you know, pretty pretty autocratic 697 00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:09.320 and well managed party, but they ended up dominating Parliament 698 00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:12.880 for decades, you know, and they were basically right wing. 699 00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:16.000 I mean I don't mean that in twenty first century terms. 700 00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:19.239 I mean they were very much like a nationalist Catholic 701 00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:24.360 you know, very you know, very pro very very patriotic, 702 00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:28.960 you know, like racialism didn't feature into their equation to 703 00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:32.280 the same degree that it did and does some continent 704 00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:36.559 all tendencies. But this was a genuine like right wing tenancy, okay, 705 00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:45.800 And when Southern Italy was conquered by the Allies, this 706 00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:50.280 ferry became basically like the main representatives of the Christian 707 00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:55.280 Democrats and what became known as the National Liberation Community, 708 00:57:56.119 --> 00:58:01.199 the National Liberation Committee, like dissident elements that you know, 709 00:58:01.280 --> 00:58:05.880 we're we're all kind of jockeying from you know, patronage 710 00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:10.119 by the Allies and you know who would give them 711 00:58:10.159 --> 00:58:16.079 the mandate and uh, you know, the security elements in 712 00:58:16.199 --> 00:58:21.519 order to in order to do insinuate themselves as you know, 713 00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:26.280 the prominent pre eminent like cadre or party like ruling 714 00:58:26.400 --> 00:58:36.760 the country. It's uh, this very first uh became a 715 00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:44.320 minister without portfolio and a government led by Ivan Benom. 716 00:58:48.599 --> 00:58:56.039 Later in Farizio Perry's cabinet, he became the Minister of 717 00:58:56.119 --> 00:59:00.320 Foreign Affairs. And that's kind of when that's got all 718 00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:06.079 these ideas he's been cultivating, like got wide sort of circulation, 719 00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:09.119 you know, And in my opinion, he was always a 720 00:59:09.159 --> 00:59:12.519 more kind of thoughtful individual than add and hour I 721 00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:15.039 think of adding now it's kind of like a great 722 00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:21.000 perbial horse trader and like literally like an incredibly like 723 00:59:21.159 --> 00:59:25.400 skilled politician, but I there was there was no real 724 00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:29.280 vision there like good or bad. I mean there's I 725 00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:31.920 Han Drudell had something to say about adding how but 726 00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:33.599 I'm not I'm not going to repeat it less like 727 00:59:33.719 --> 00:59:43.440 YouTube virus or something. But to be fair, I compared 728 00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:48.079 to some possibilities I had now looks pretty good and gaspary. Uh, 729 00:59:48.519 --> 00:59:50.880 I think it was positively hero. I'm considering a lot 730 00:59:50.920 --> 00:59:56.679 of a lot of you know, the challenges he was 731 00:59:56.719 --> 01:00:01.360 facing quite literally not just a you know, his his 732 01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:09.599 soul and sanity, but his life and whim. Finally, uh, Gaspari. 733 01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:12.360 From forty five to fifty three, he was prime He 734 01:00:12.440 --> 01:00:18.159 was prime minister of a successive Christian Democrat like governments. Now, 735 01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:20.920 if you know what about Italian politics, that's that's like 736 01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:25.159 absurd longevity. Okay, that's like that's that that's basically a 737 01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:27.960 British prime minister like ruling for like you know, like 738 01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:31.920 eighteen years. Okay, Like I don't think if I'm not 739 01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:33.800 making front of the Italians. This is like a fact. 740 01:00:33.880 --> 01:00:39.480 But uh this uh you know this, it was declared 741 01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:46.960 a republic. You know immediately they signed uh a peace treaty. 742 01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:49.960 Uh like a from a Peatriot with the Alan forty seven. 743 01:00:50.519 --> 01:00:53.039 They they were they were one of the original Natal 744 01:00:53.079 --> 01:00:59.760 members in forty nine, you know. And again uh Gasparri 745 01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:03.719 and uh the Christian Democrat delegation, they actively courted the 746 01:01:03.800 --> 01:01:07.159 United States, you know. And again I don't I don't 747 01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:10.679 buy into the mythology of like, oh, the Marshall Plan 748 01:01:10.840 --> 01:01:13.599 just like created magic money and like made made Europe 749 01:01:13.639 --> 01:01:17.039 like rich. Again. Uh, that's that's complete nonsense. But there 750 01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:21.320 were infrastructural needs and there was a need for capital 751 01:01:21.559 --> 01:01:24.880 and key sectors in order for Europe to be able 752 01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:29.599 to like like realize its great power potential. And the 753 01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:37.559 Marshall Plan when it's uh, when it when it's capital 754 01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:43.920 inflows were truly targeted in a way that indexed with 755 01:01:44.239 --> 01:01:52.559 necessary developmental schemes. It was highly effective. And he uh 756 01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:57.639 he lobbied very very hard for U for participation in 757 01:01:57.639 --> 01:02:01.440 the Marshall Plan. The like the Marshall Plan, I gets 758 01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:07.039 it really did. In the case of Italy, I I 759 01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:09.239 don't think the term you know, like economic miracle, like 760 01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:13.800 the Spanish miracle or itself pretty miracle, you know, because 761 01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:18.880 it's it's just another everything kind of like conscious or 762 01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:22.360 not to like make economics. It's a good secure thing. 763 01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:25.119 But to act like it's literally some kind of magic 764 01:02:25.159 --> 01:02:28.480 and it it doesn't owe to you know, the human 765 01:02:28.519 --> 01:02:34.400 ability to you know, to truly like build equity, you know, 766 01:02:34.599 --> 01:02:40.960 from from the raw stuff of the capital again quite 767 01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:46.679 literally and you know, the uh, the Marshall plane itself 768 01:02:46.719 --> 01:02:50.239 did not revide Europe. But at the same time, again 769 01:02:52.199 --> 01:02:59.840 the European colon steel community was essential. And you know, 770 01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:06.280 gesperit's like like like pushing to make this, you know, 771 01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:14.639 a policy priority and you know, making it an unconditional imperative, 772 01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:28.199 you know, for for his government was essential when uh, 773 01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:33.440 when he did take uh when when he did it 774 01:03:33.679 --> 01:03:39.000 become prime MINSI that first time, succeeding Ferruccio Pary. He 775 01:03:39.079 --> 01:03:43.079 inherited a coalition that included both Italian Communist Party and 776 01:03:43.519 --> 01:03:51.719 Italian Socialist Party delegates, along with along with other like 777 01:03:51.840 --> 01:03:56.519 smaller parties that were nominally independent or you know, had names, 778 01:03:56.519 --> 01:03:59.400 you know, like the you know, like a Liberal Republican 779 01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:02.320 Party or the Action Party, but you know, some of 780 01:04:02.360 --> 01:04:06.119 which had very much you know, we're communists at Jason 781 01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:17.159 if not, you know, no proxies too. To Gatsbury's credit, 782 01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:31.320 his Deputy Prime Minister Palmiro Togliotti did cooperate in gas 783 01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:35.440 Spurry's attempts to soften the terms of impending l I 784 01:04:35.559 --> 01:04:41.960 PCE treaty with Italy. You know, again, you know, seeing 785 01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:45.320 very much what was being done to Germany, and this 786 01:04:45.519 --> 01:04:53.360 was this, This is you know, him lobbing so heavily 787 01:04:53.400 --> 01:05:00.440 and so very publicly for relief through and cop operation. 788 01:05:01.199 --> 01:05:04.599 They're in the European recovery program, you know, which was 789 01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:10.400 the tangling of the Marshall Plan. You know this this, 790 01:05:10.400 --> 01:05:19.719 this was opposed most siparously by the communists, but gas 791 01:05:19.719 --> 01:05:24.920 Sperry did manage to hold this you know, initial prime 792 01:05:24.920 --> 01:05:32.079 ministership together despite all odds, especially when you consider you know, 793 01:05:32.199 --> 01:05:35.599 the the fact that he was dealing with the cabinet 794 01:05:35.639 --> 01:05:39.400 has very much stopped. But that was very much stocked 795 01:05:39.639 --> 01:05:49.599 by os the Uh. It was under Gasperry's watch that 796 01:05:49.679 --> 01:05:54.880 Italy would you know, the one thing significant referendum on 797 01:05:54.960 --> 01:06:01.719 his watch pose the question of whether Italy was to 798 01:06:01.840 --> 01:06:07.599 remain a monarchy here become a republic, you know, and 799 01:06:07.639 --> 01:06:13.480 again that I believe very much was uh was uh 800 01:06:13.639 --> 01:06:16.599 the spirits like Machiavellian streak. You know, like I said, 801 01:06:16.719 --> 01:06:24.440 like he like Franco's redeem post World of the Spury 802 01:06:24.480 --> 01:06:29.480 obviously was a far more amorable figure. One of the 803 01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:34.199 ways that uh, they were able to you know, kind 804 01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:40.000 of bring the Vatican into the fold and not just 805 01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:47.320 uh administrative capacities and in terms of uh insinuating a 806 01:06:47.400 --> 01:06:50.840 kind of moral legitimacy, which you know carried a lot 807 01:06:50.840 --> 01:06:57.880 of cachet still in those days, but also uh it's 808 01:06:58.159 --> 01:07:03.159 allowed it allowed for a certain freedom of movement in 809 01:07:03.679 --> 01:07:08.480 global politique vis a vis what you know, other countries 810 01:07:08.480 --> 01:07:12.000 would respond to that they wouldn't have, you know, if 811 01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:15.880 Italy was merely, you know, a a client regime in 812 01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:20.440 the United States with all the trappings they're in, including 813 01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:25.480 you know, the stripping away of the Roman Church from 814 01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:32.239 you know, not just uh authority in government and administration, 815 01:07:32.440 --> 01:07:41.639 but also in national life. It's uh. He was chief 816 01:07:41.679 --> 01:07:44.199 of the Italian delegation at the World War two peace 817 01:07:44.280 --> 01:07:55.280 conference in Paris. Uh. You know, he remained harshly critical 818 01:07:55.320 --> 01:08:04.039 of the sanctions that remained on in poets on Italy, 819 01:08:05.599 --> 01:08:09.960 owing to various intrigues and some of which were just 820 01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:15.159 kind of born of vengeance driven sensibilities, especially considering that 821 01:08:15.280 --> 01:08:18.479 you know, Italian leadership was not going to be placed 822 01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:21.279 on trial or you know, or certect these kinds of 823 01:08:22.760 --> 01:08:29.119 show trial homicides under auspices of you know, justice. But 824 01:08:32.359 --> 01:08:36.840 he did gain very strong concessions from the allies that 825 01:08:37.079 --> 01:08:48.039 guaranteed Italian sovereignty, particularly as regarded the bulk and some 826 01:08:48.079 --> 01:08:53.319 of the eastern border territory was lost Yugoslavia, but the 827 01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:57.199 free territory of Trice was divided between the two two stays. 828 01:08:57.199 --> 01:09:02.760 And obviously you know, NATO meaning at that point just America, 829 01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:08.920 like you know, signed on as the guardan tour of 830 01:09:08.920 --> 01:09:15.600 of these uh borders. Now back to Androtti again, this 831 01:09:15.720 --> 01:09:20.000 is important to understand. I'm not boring with it, but 832 01:09:21.600 --> 01:09:26.039 let's figure out the hell I am you have my 833 01:09:26.159 --> 01:09:40.079 senior moments. Back to Androtti, Androti had achieved cabinet rank 834 01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:49.840 at a very young age, and by the time, by 835 01:09:49.960 --> 01:09:54.000 by the end of his tenure, he'd he'd occupied virtual 836 01:09:54.039 --> 01:10:02.600 every major office of the post war Italian state, and 837 01:10:02.720 --> 01:10:05.880 he again was seen as quite literally like the unofficial 838 01:10:05.920 --> 01:10:11.319 liaison with the Vatican, you know, and foreign policy terms 839 01:10:12.239 --> 01:10:16.079 and DROUGHTI you know very much the protos vego Sperry. 840 01:10:17.079 --> 01:10:21.319 You know, he guided the European unions like Italy within 841 01:10:21.439 --> 01:10:25.319 kind of the what the ecing and the EU, and 842 01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:32.960 Roti guided Italy's integration into it, and fascinating leads to 843 01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:35.920 me if you know what my kind of research interests 844 01:10:35.960 --> 01:10:40.520 are and if you kind of understand the nuances of 845 01:10:40.560 --> 01:10:46.039 what Gladio was to the men who staffed it, which 846 01:10:46.119 --> 01:10:49.039 was something very different than the men who conceived of 847 01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:54.920 it and wanted to utilize it for strategic purposes, you 848 01:10:54.960 --> 01:11:02.680 know that were fairly transparent and already pursued uh close 849 01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:09.800 relations with the Arab world, you know, and he uh 850 01:11:10.079 --> 01:11:13.439 he had a strong, strong following not just in Italy 851 01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:18.399 but uh especially through Catholic Europe, but also like you know, 852 01:11:18.439 --> 01:11:23.199 throughout the futality, throughout the totality of what was becoming, 853 01:11:23.319 --> 01:11:32.960 uh you know, the Burgening ec EU. He substantially mediated corruption. 854 01:11:35.720 --> 01:11:39.560 He'd ow's seen the transformation of the country from you know, 855 01:11:39.600 --> 01:11:43.560 a basically rural country into literally the world's fifth largest economy. 856 01:11:44.039 --> 01:11:47.960 That's totally insane. That's only comparable, I think to like 857 01:11:48.079 --> 01:11:52.000 South Korea went from having an economic profile comparable at 858 01:11:52.359 --> 01:11:56.159 Burkina Fosso to like being like the number nine Ruld economy. 859 01:11:56.439 --> 01:12:00.439 Like granted there was like massive subsidies and infrastructural aid. 860 01:12:00.800 --> 01:12:03.560 You know, that was kind of like the reward for 861 01:12:03.880 --> 01:12:08.840 you know, contributing some very much and not not just 862 01:12:08.920 --> 01:12:13.840 in not not just in in in treasure, but in blood, 863 01:12:14.600 --> 01:12:18.960 you know, to the Vietnam War. But it's truly remarkable 864 01:12:22.880 --> 01:12:26.640 to consider, especially when it's something that just seems like 865 01:12:26.640 --> 01:12:33.079 impossible an AGV man, you know, like undercurrent historical conditions. 866 01:12:33.119 --> 01:12:43.640 But the uh his uh, he was a huge uh. 867 01:12:44.199 --> 01:12:48.800 Andrati's ops claimed that he was a neoliberal. That's kind 868 01:12:48.800 --> 01:12:52.880 of like the catch that's kind of like the favored 869 01:12:53.039 --> 01:12:58.119 uh sort of slander, you know, of of of the 870 01:12:58.199 --> 01:13:02.399 of these kinds of posts war European politicians, you know, 871 01:13:02.479 --> 01:13:07.800 who rejected kind of like the Keynesian model, and you know, 872 01:13:07.840 --> 01:13:13.640 began to realize that this overregulation and state planning was 873 01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:16.560 was quite literally crushing what remained in national industry. But 874 01:13:16.640 --> 01:13:21.560 it also it was you know, it was it was 875 01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:24.479 actually like you know, enslaving Europe to the dollar like 876 01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:30.279 even more than a you know, even even even more 877 01:13:30.319 --> 01:13:32.279 than today. I mean by by like a wide mile, 878 01:13:32.319 --> 01:13:37.359 it's not even close. But I he was only a 879 01:13:37.399 --> 01:13:41.239 supply sider. But he you know, like I said, I think, uh, 880 01:13:42.359 --> 01:13:47.319 I you know, I don't know seriously, especially people who 881 01:13:47.520 --> 01:13:50.520 articully learned it in economics, you know when they bandied this, 882 01:13:50.760 --> 01:13:53.039 uh like, oh he was he was a neoliberal and 883 01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:54.800 like God's in the right. Do that too, that that 884 01:13:54.920 --> 01:13:57.159 means that you have no like credibility or something as 885 01:13:57.159 --> 01:14:01.439 a right winger. It's like, I don't, I you know, 886 01:14:01.560 --> 01:14:04.720 the the political was the economic and I mean that 887 01:14:04.840 --> 01:14:07.079 that's that's a liberal con seed man. That's not the 888 01:14:07.079 --> 01:14:12.479 way you think of things anyway. But uh, you know 889 01:14:12.560 --> 01:14:16.359 Androtti again is also his His two other kind of 890 01:14:16.520 --> 01:14:21.680 big commitments were you know, staunchly supporting an the next 891 01:14:21.720 --> 01:14:27.560 thing with the Vatican, and you know, a strong hostility 892 01:14:27.640 --> 01:14:34.079 towards the Italian Commedist Italian Communist Party and the Soviet Union. 893 01:14:35.359 --> 01:14:47.159 Now remember how we're talking about the English, the British, rather, 894 01:14:47.319 --> 01:14:52.680 there's plenty of Scots and uh and the Alsterman among 895 01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:58.640 the ryans of those Biostards. And how they really were 896 01:14:58.680 --> 01:15:09.079 the pioneers of asymmetrical warfare well around uh, around the 897 01:15:09.159 --> 01:15:18.880 nineteen seventies, very late seventies. Look here, general Sir John Hackett, 898 01:15:19.159 --> 01:15:22.319 he was former commander in chief of the British Army 899 01:15:22.359 --> 01:15:27.840 on the Rhine, which was again they they were the 900 01:15:27.880 --> 01:15:34.000 primary UH British Army element and the inner German border. Okay. 901 01:15:35.119 --> 01:15:40.720 They were kind of the equivalent of ah of of 902 01:15:40.880 --> 01:15:48.960 of twelve twelve Black Horse, the folding Gap. Okay. He 903 01:15:49.319 --> 01:15:53.640 he confirmed over a series of interviews and like talks 904 01:15:54.239 --> 01:15:56.960 you know, at various you know, war college side venues. 905 01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:01.439 This was November sixteenth, nineteen nineties. So again you're right 906 01:16:01.479 --> 01:16:07.319 on the heels of these earlier disclosures about Gladio Well 907 01:16:12.560 --> 01:16:20.000 Hacket hack I said, have known certain terms that a contingent, 908 01:16:20.239 --> 01:16:25.920 a contingity, a contingency plant plan involving quote stay behind 909 01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:30.399 and resistance in depth was drawn up after ninety forty 910 01:16:30.399 --> 01:16:39.920 five and was absolutely essential. Okay. A proto j of 911 01:16:40.000 --> 01:16:50.680 his anthony for R. Hockley, a former commander in chief 912 01:16:50.720 --> 01:16:56.640 of NATO's UH forces in Northern Europe, which would have 913 01:16:56.680 --> 01:17:03.800 been area of operation would have been UH UH Norway, Denmark, 914 01:17:04.800 --> 01:17:12.800 the UH, the North, the Scandinavian, the North Sea. He 915 01:17:13.079 --> 01:17:21.039 uh reiterated to The Guardian magazine that yes, what General 916 01:17:21.159 --> 01:17:27.119 Hackett that suggested it was was absolutely true. Now, the 917 01:17:27.199 --> 01:17:32.720 British were big on public diplomacy in a way America wasn't, 918 01:17:33.520 --> 01:17:36.880 you know, I think a couple of years back, it's 919 01:17:36.920 --> 01:17:40.279 before there was as many options available on Twitter to 920 01:17:41.239 --> 01:17:45.520 you know, do spaces and things. And I don't believe 921 01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:49.199 I've ever done on pot about it, but I've posted 922 01:17:49.239 --> 01:17:58.800 many images of the Soviet Military Power magazine that you 923 01:17:58.840 --> 01:18:03.079 could purchase in any post office and it was released 924 01:18:04.199 --> 01:18:10.880 every year from I believe eighty one until nineteen ninety. 925 01:18:12.600 --> 01:18:15.960 It was put out by the Defense Intelligence Agency. It 926 01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:19.000 was full of this incredible artwork because obviously a lot 927 01:18:19.000 --> 01:18:24.079 of these weapons platforms, NATO didn't have actual photographs of them, 928 01:18:24.399 --> 01:18:30.840 but you know, they knew they existed. But this was 929 01:18:30.920 --> 01:18:34.479 obviously an effort at you know, true public diplomacy, like 930 01:18:34.720 --> 01:18:41.920 educates the public on a question of policy significance or 931 01:18:43.279 --> 01:18:48.039 political goings on. You know that you know, they wouldn't 932 01:18:48.199 --> 01:18:53.399 they wouldn't ordinarily be availed to, you know, a body 933 01:18:53.439 --> 01:18:57.960 of work that could sort of explain such college matters 934 01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:01.479 and in concise terms, and that seems completely quaints like 935 01:19:01.520 --> 01:19:05.880 in the Internet era. But Britain was always big on this. 936 01:19:06.520 --> 01:19:12.560 America was less big on this, you know. But in 937 01:19:12.640 --> 01:19:18.479 the Cold War there were a few kind of very 938 01:19:18.520 --> 01:19:22.479 striking examples, and Soviet military power was one of them. Well, 939 01:19:22.560 --> 01:19:27.439 what the British did was and my dad had these 940 01:19:27.479 --> 01:19:29.880 books on his bookshelf as when I was a little kid, 941 01:19:29.920 --> 01:19:39.439 and they only blew my fucking mind. But Sir General, 942 01:19:39.479 --> 01:19:43.439 Sir John Hackett, he wrote a book in nineteen seventy 943 01:19:43.479 --> 01:19:52.279 eight and it was marketed as a novel in America. 944 01:19:52.479 --> 01:19:55.239 I don't believe it was marketed as such in the UK. 945 01:19:55.399 --> 01:19:57.359 And in the UK it had a different epilogue, and 946 01:19:57.399 --> 01:20:01.199 we'll get into that in a minute, but it was 947 01:20:01.279 --> 01:20:06.680 called the Third World War August nineteen eighty five. It 948 01:20:06.760 --> 01:20:11.319 was a fictionalized account that reads kind of like threads 949 01:20:11.359 --> 01:20:15.239 and a threads. You know, it was a movie, but uh, 950 01:20:16.119 --> 01:20:21.319 you know the it doesn't have a traditional like fiction 951 01:20:21.479 --> 01:20:24.960 narrative structure. You know, like it'll jump to some you know, 952 01:20:25.079 --> 01:20:31.760 like warsaw packed like early warning posts you know in 953 01:20:31.800 --> 01:20:34.840 East Germany, you know, and they'll like jump to you know, 954 01:20:34.960 --> 01:20:38.920 some Soviet missile base in Kazakhstan, and they'll like jump 955 01:20:38.960 --> 01:20:43.840 to like you know, the President's like situation room. But uh, 956 01:20:44.079 --> 01:20:48.840 what it basically is is it's it describes a scenario, okay, 957 01:20:51.479 --> 01:20:58.359 that being that in August nineteen eighty five, Sovie mean 958 01:20:58.399 --> 01:21:05.960 Warsaw packed the Salt Western the Uh. There's a follow 959 01:21:06.079 --> 01:21:09.840 up in nineteen eighty two called The Third World War 960 01:21:09.960 --> 01:21:16.600 The Untold Story, which elaborated on the original with some 961 01:21:16.680 --> 01:21:20.399 details of this counter faction universe, but also again like 962 01:21:20.520 --> 01:21:23.720 it it it added a kind of what I think 963 01:21:23.720 --> 01:21:28.239 it was an alibi for Western for American audiences. It's fascinating, 964 01:21:29.520 --> 01:21:37.760 but for context. Some of them hack it believed in 965 01:21:39.760 --> 01:21:43.840 you know, this was the final really critical phase of 966 01:21:43.840 --> 01:21:46.399 the Cold War. You know, like seventy eight, seventy nine, 967 01:21:46.479 --> 01:21:52.279 like eighty five were able Archer era. You know, it 968 01:21:52.399 --> 01:21:57.840 was a four armed conclusion to a lot of these uh, 969 01:21:57.880 --> 01:22:00.800 a lot of these general law officers that there was 970 01:22:01.039 --> 01:22:06.640 going to be a war in Europe, Okay, and uh, 971 01:22:07.680 --> 01:22:11.239 basically their job was not just to protect you know, 972 01:22:12.279 --> 01:22:14.960 the people in the United Kingdom or the people the 973 01:22:15.000 --> 01:22:18.119 United States, you know, the people of Italy, you know, 974 01:22:18.439 --> 01:22:24.119 depending on the executive we're talking about, it's the folks 975 01:22:24.119 --> 01:22:28.000 of their abilities and also to you know, to do 976 01:22:28.039 --> 01:22:32.000 everything they can to fight and win in nuclear war 977 01:22:34.680 --> 01:22:38.560 for our Hockeley, who was heck gets some protege I 978 01:22:38.560 --> 01:22:44.880 mentioned a minute ago. During this time he started advocating 979 01:22:44.920 --> 01:22:50.720 strongly for the creation of a new Home Guard and 980 01:22:50.800 --> 01:22:56.479 anticipation of a potential Soviet assault. You know, the the 981 01:22:56.800 --> 01:22:58.960 Home Guard of World War two was like lampoon and 982 01:22:59.000 --> 01:23:01.079 stuff like Dad's are you know, have you've ever seen that? 983 01:23:02.279 --> 01:23:09.760 But for Hogween Haggar were serious about having able bodied 984 01:23:09.800 --> 01:23:14.560 young men, you know, like basically, uh take on the 985 01:23:14.680 --> 01:23:19.800 role of uh of a gladiol element an event, uh 986 01:23:20.079 --> 01:23:26.920 of warsaw Pact, assault of the island. Okay, So in 987 01:23:26.960 --> 01:23:29.880 the books or in the book, uh, we'll start with 988 01:23:33.880 --> 01:23:35.720 kind of I think is the primary source, which is 989 01:23:35.760 --> 01:23:50.319 the first addition, and uh the Third World War untold 990 01:23:50.439 --> 01:24:01.239 story they describe uh, basically the political situation as it 991 01:24:01.359 --> 01:24:07.119 stood then in terms of you know, alliances, allegiances, then 992 01:24:07.279 --> 01:24:12.960 active battle spaces. There was some speculation about space based 993 01:24:13.000 --> 01:24:16.680 weapons platforms, but otherwise it was all based on like 994 01:24:16.800 --> 01:24:20.439 forces and being you know, at then extent force levels 995 01:24:20.439 --> 01:24:24.920 and weapons systems that actually existed and could expect it 996 01:24:24.960 --> 01:24:29.560 to be performed, could expected to perform an action as 997 01:24:29.600 --> 01:24:34.199 described in the narrative. But uh, the novel starts then 998 01:24:34.720 --> 01:24:42.920 for presidential election, Walter Mondale, who's the Democratic nominee, loses 999 01:24:43.000 --> 01:24:48.399 the former Governor Thompson of South Carolina, who's obviously supposed 1000 01:24:48.399 --> 01:24:55.319 to be Ronald Reagan. Okay, most of what's going on, 1001 01:24:56.479 --> 01:24:59.920 as you know, in the world situation, as it's person 1002 01:25:00.520 --> 01:25:05.800 and witnessed by like Reagan and his cabinet, is detailed 1003 01:25:05.840 --> 01:25:11.119 by you know, President Thompson's advisors, you know, who are 1004 01:25:11.159 --> 01:25:16.039 briefing him on the international situation, like from the time 1005 01:25:16.039 --> 01:25:20.319 he takes office, you know, until and then beyond the 1006 01:25:20.319 --> 01:25:24.279 outside of hostilities, you know. So at the outset of 1007 01:25:24.279 --> 01:25:33.920 the book, Uh, Asia's uh becoming a real powerhouse. They've increasingly, 1008 01:25:36.840 --> 01:25:42.800 with the accepts in North Korea and Vietnam, liberalize their 1009 01:25:42.800 --> 01:25:50.960 economies and the sort of you know, ease back from 1010 01:25:51.039 --> 01:25:57.039 any kind of political interdependence with the Soviet Union. From 1011 01:25:57.039 --> 01:26:04.000 a strategic and military perspective, China has a has like 1012 01:26:04.039 --> 01:26:07.359 a Dang type figure at the helm. It was like 1013 01:26:07.479 --> 01:26:10.520 not like a reformer kind of in like the Western 1014 01:26:10.600 --> 01:26:14.960 you know, like fox democracy sense, but he's basically become 1015 01:26:15.000 --> 01:26:21.279 a hostile to communism and all but name he's trying 1016 01:26:21.319 --> 01:26:25.399 to flip UH North Korea and Vietnam against the Russia, 1017 01:26:25.479 --> 01:26:29.119 but basically buying them off, you know, and pursue UH 1018 01:26:30.239 --> 01:26:33.720 a kind of gradual you know, encircle them into the 1019 01:26:33.760 --> 01:26:41.960 Soviet Far East, the India, which is UH, the Soviet 1020 01:26:42.039 --> 01:26:46.279 Union's like only real like strong ally in the region. 1021 01:26:47.159 --> 01:26:54.399 You know, it continues to deteriorate. They're the exception to 1022 01:26:54.479 --> 01:27:04.520 like Asia's prosperous condition. It's literally the tior rating. The 1023 01:27:04.560 --> 01:27:13.359 Arab Cold War is intensifying as UH as a a 1024 01:27:13.439 --> 01:27:18.720 nacerost Uh government in Egypt that's basically you know, like 1025 01:27:18.800 --> 01:27:26.279 a left wing nationalist like some of communists adjacent dictatorship 1026 01:27:26.840 --> 01:27:35.720 is creating towards war with Saudi Arabia. South Africa has 1027 01:27:35.720 --> 01:27:40.359 become a federation, like a racially divided federation, but under 1028 01:27:40.359 --> 01:27:45.279 a Bantu bantustan system, which is basically stable but lives 1029 01:27:45.319 --> 01:27:50.319 under concerns threat by Nigeria, which is now like fully 1030 01:27:50.359 --> 01:27:54.279 committed to the South African border war. As are like 1031 01:27:54.399 --> 01:28:04.119 actual Soviet troops Ethiopia as UH all apart including Eritrea, 1032 01:28:06.800 --> 01:28:11.399 the Soviets try to show up the situation and install 1033 01:28:11.479 --> 01:28:18.119 their own proxy government but this fails, and then the 1034 01:28:18.239 --> 01:28:21.399 book shows like a world map, like what the implications 1035 01:28:21.399 --> 01:28:23.880 of all these things are like a hypothetical like you 1036 01:28:23.920 --> 01:28:28.520 know Reagan like a situation room, like on every front, 1037 01:28:28.600 --> 01:28:32.119 like the Soviets are are are losing the Cold War, 1038 01:28:33.079 --> 01:28:40.720 you know, it's uh. Meanwhile, the Pollet Burrow, which presumably 1039 01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:47.600 the trifecta of because this public is rated in seventy 1040 01:28:47.640 --> 01:28:52.199 eight the trifecta and drop off Vermiko and Ustenov is 1041 01:28:52.239 --> 01:28:55.359 kind of like the real trum Rather, they're like they're 1042 01:28:55.359 --> 01:28:58.119 the real executive of the USSR, you know, with the 1043 01:28:58.279 --> 01:29:01.520 with the increasingly kind of disabled, the version of the 1044 01:29:01.560 --> 01:29:08.800 figurehead and drop of or his like counterpart in the story, 1045 01:29:09.600 --> 01:29:13.600 he basically drops the same speech that he did in 1046 01:29:13.680 --> 01:29:17.800 eighty or eighty one where he talked about how, you know, 1047 01:29:17.840 --> 01:29:21.760 the Soviet Union was like could not compete, you know, 1048 01:29:21.880 --> 01:29:25.680 like in the information revolution, and you know, they the 1049 01:29:25.680 --> 01:29:29.760 amount of computing powder computing power in the country was pathetic, 1050 01:29:30.119 --> 01:29:32.159 you know, compared to any developed state. And if this 1051 01:29:33.640 --> 01:29:37.439 wasn't altered within a decade and remedied, like the Soyds 1052 01:29:37.439 --> 01:29:40.920 would lose the Cold War. Basically, an identical speech is 1053 01:29:40.960 --> 01:29:43.520 given by you know, the stand in for a drop 1054 01:29:43.560 --> 01:29:46.119 off or you know again the trump we just mentioned. 1055 01:29:49.319 --> 01:29:56.359 You know, the poet bro accepts these conclusions proffered by 1056 01:29:56.399 --> 01:30:01.880 this uh composite executive character or character character is kind 1057 01:30:01.880 --> 01:30:07.199 of consensus that you know, the total state nation of 1058 01:30:07.239 --> 01:30:11.279 the economy means that the Soviet armed forces will not 1059 01:30:11.399 --> 01:30:14.960 be able to retain technological parody for the with the 1060 01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:20.800 West for beyond a decade, and that the that the 1061 01:30:20.840 --> 01:30:24.359 only way like the Soviet Union can bring the Cold 1062 01:30:24.399 --> 01:30:31.239 War to a victorious conclusion is uh to assault Western Europe, 1063 01:30:31.960 --> 01:30:38.520 annihilate NATO, you know, kind of forever, banish American forces 1064 01:30:38.520 --> 01:30:41.399 from the continent, you know, and then you know, the 1065 01:30:41.520 --> 01:30:47.119 super peace from a position of uh a strength and 1066 01:30:47.279 --> 01:30:54.520 uh if not benevolence. The poet through understands that those 1067 01:30:54.640 --> 01:31:00.279 resistance from NATO is guaranteed that before you state it's 1068 01:31:00.279 --> 01:31:09.199 amount of counteroffensive, the threat of the threat, especially of 1069 01:31:10.079 --> 01:31:14.079 tactical nuclear weapons and the use of chemical weapons, and 1070 01:31:14.119 --> 01:31:16.840 the potential in the case of the former of horizontaliscalation 1071 01:31:19.479 --> 01:31:23.920 will not some NATO states out of the war further 1072 01:31:24.520 --> 01:31:29.640 compromising you know, their ability to reconstitute amidst you know, 1073 01:31:29.680 --> 01:31:36.159 the massive kind of gap and numerical forces and being so, 1074 01:31:39.880 --> 01:31:44.119 the Soviet Diplomatic Corps also believes that they can cause 1075 01:31:44.119 --> 01:31:49.800 a schism in the Western Defense Court on by convincing 1076 01:31:49.880 --> 01:31:52.159 France the sty out of the conflict. Who you know, 1077 01:31:52.159 --> 01:31:54.800 France is not a NATO member. They remain adjacent, but 1078 01:31:55.359 --> 01:31:58.079 during this period of relations between NATO and France were 1079 01:31:58.079 --> 01:32:03.560 particularly frosty. The poet broad decides that there's three options 1080 01:32:03.560 --> 01:32:08.159 before them, very in a wills with a large a 1081 01:32:08.560 --> 01:32:16.640 massive preemptive nuclear strike against Europe alongside UH special as 1082 01:32:16.960 --> 01:32:22.600 paratrooper elements deployed in areas not under direct nuclear assault, 1083 01:32:22.920 --> 01:32:27.279 followed by a seven day land invasion to the Linz 1084 01:32:27.399 --> 01:32:33.199 frand for wins Frankfurt Dunkirk line. So another event is 1085 01:32:33.239 --> 01:32:38.079 so bad in any event, assault the proverbial center with 1086 01:32:38.199 --> 01:32:44.319 nuclear weapons like without regard for you know, counter value 1087 01:32:44.319 --> 01:32:51.000 attriction like assault the periphery with special operations elements, and 1088 01:32:51.039 --> 01:32:58.760 then smashed through UH. Then now it radiated you know, 1089 01:32:59.159 --> 01:33:03.000 former main line of resistance, you know, with warsaw packed armor, 1090 01:33:04.119 --> 01:33:08.479 you know. And then upon reaching UH again the lens 1091 01:33:08.560 --> 01:33:14.560 Frankfurt Dunkirk lying basically within you know, a stone's throw 1092 01:33:14.640 --> 01:33:19.960 of of the ocean, you know, to demand a demand 1093 01:33:20.039 --> 01:33:30.119 Natal come to peace terms. Variant B is identically above, 1094 01:33:30.319 --> 01:33:35.800 but with full deployment of chemical weapons and high explosive 1095 01:33:35.920 --> 01:33:40.840 conventional ordinance, but a complete ban on the use of 1096 01:33:41.800 --> 01:33:51.399 nuclear weapons. Variant C would be a conventional invasion with 1097 01:33:51.560 --> 01:34:02.079 tactical nuclear strikes being employed. If if, if, if NATO 1098 01:34:02.199 --> 01:34:11.119 is able to hold before warsaw path reaches the Rhine 1099 01:34:11.560 --> 01:34:18.800 within seven days, the PO ultimately decides on Invariant C 1100 01:34:20.119 --> 01:34:26.479 to avoid horizontal escalation. And you know, the development of 1101 01:34:26.760 --> 01:34:31.319 what almost certainly would you know, snowball into a general 1102 01:34:31.439 --> 01:34:37.840 nuclear war, especially based upon the platforms then deployed and 1103 01:34:40.319 --> 01:34:47.039 the particularly kind of dangerous coupling of their their sensitivity 1104 01:34:47.079 --> 01:34:52.079 to the sensory data, but their lack of ability to 1105 01:34:52.199 --> 01:35:00.760 gauge you know, the the the true strength of forces 1106 01:35:00.800 --> 01:35:08.159 from where the you know, the enemy device detected is 1107 01:35:08.399 --> 01:35:21.159 ben emergents. You know. But uh what uh like short 1108 01:35:21.159 --> 01:35:28.840 story long, What basically carries the day for NATO is 1109 01:35:28.840 --> 01:35:32.199 like these stay behind like Gladio units and like the 1110 01:35:32.279 --> 01:35:39.680 US Marine Corps. They they were able to flip Yugoslavia 1111 01:35:40.359 --> 01:35:43.439 out of a position of neutrality into like actual hostility 1112 01:35:44.560 --> 01:35:48.640 against the Soviet Union, with the exception of like some 1113 01:35:48.880 --> 01:35:56.399 aspects of you know, uh of ethnics serves, like serving 1114 01:35:56.439 --> 01:35:59.960 in the security apparatus, you know, both police and military. 1115 01:36:01.479 --> 01:36:07.079 But you know, the uh, the Soviet Union stalls basically 1116 01:36:08.359 --> 01:36:14.079 because uh when warsaw packed uh they hit West German 1117 01:36:14.199 --> 01:36:21.279 forces at Kreenfield, attempts to chase them out of the Netherlands, 1118 01:36:22.239 --> 01:36:29.039 and compounding you know, the the setback of the the 1119 01:36:29.119 --> 01:36:33.159 high attrition they took. You know these uh, these these 1120 01:36:33.800 --> 01:36:37.079 these Dutch militias, you know like raise up and and 1121 01:36:37.199 --> 01:36:42.159 just uh and just smash. You know. Essentially these these 1122 01:36:42.159 --> 01:36:45.880 already weakened uh, the Soviet columns, you know they are 1123 01:36:47.039 --> 01:36:51.279 they're they're essentially you know, becoming kind of like dead 1124 01:36:51.439 --> 01:36:56.680 uh where they sit, going to their uh lack of 1125 01:36:56.760 --> 01:37:03.760 access to fuel. But you know, it's obvious that this 1126 01:37:03.880 --> 01:37:09.800 book was published, uh to present a scenario to the 1127 01:37:09.800 --> 01:37:12.640 British people. I mean, it's like it's like a it's 1128 01:37:12.640 --> 01:37:16.880 a policy, Uh, it's it's a war plan. It's it's 1129 01:37:16.920 --> 01:37:21.319 a work plan slash war gaming manual, coupled with uh, 1130 01:37:22.520 --> 01:37:27.520 you know, an argument in favor of you know, this 1131 01:37:27.720 --> 01:37:31.840 tactical doctorate is how Britain can best protect itself an 1132 01:37:31.840 --> 01:37:35.840 event of World War three and over this taste where 1133 01:37:35.840 --> 01:37:39.319 people might find the kind of place in such things. 1134 01:37:39.319 --> 01:37:47.840 It's essential and people need to be behind these aforementioned elements, 1135 01:37:48.319 --> 01:37:53.079 you know, for them to be effective. You know, not 1136 01:37:53.159 --> 01:37:59.279 just in you know, material and logistical terms, but in 1137 01:37:59.359 --> 01:38:05.199 terms they're rational, morale and everything else. Now it's got 1138 01:38:05.359 --> 01:38:14.199 very interesting when you know the the early four structure 1139 01:38:14.199 --> 01:38:19.039 of Gladio elements like turns out to be like like 1140 01:38:19.159 --> 01:38:24.359 out and out you know, fascists, you know, especially in Italy, 1141 01:38:25.159 --> 01:38:32.199 and there's a parallel here. I think it was Roberto 1142 01:38:32.720 --> 01:38:43.439 Fiori who was uh. I think it's the Italian the 1143 01:38:44.039 --> 01:38:49.159 Italian Liberation movement to the Italian national movements. You know, 1144 01:38:49.199 --> 01:38:53.279 the the legacy of the National Fascist Party they had 1145 01:38:53.359 --> 01:38:56.520 us gives them development in the ranks, not unlike that 1146 01:38:56.640 --> 01:39:00.439 of the national fronts, you know, into the into the 1147 01:39:00.520 --> 01:39:03.479 into the into the political, into the political soldier wing 1148 01:39:03.520 --> 01:39:06.920 and like the Flag group, which I find totally fascinating, 1149 01:39:07.800 --> 01:39:12.239 and it bears directly on what we're going through today 1150 01:39:12.399 --> 01:39:19.399 within our own within our own resistance culture. And we'll 1151 01:39:19.399 --> 01:39:23.039 get into that next episode. I'm sorry if that went 1152 01:39:23.760 --> 01:39:27.399 too long, but I'm like really tired. Otherwise I keep 1153 01:39:27.439 --> 01:39:32.920 on going. But I hope that's an acceptable stopping point. 1154 01:39:33.560 --> 01:39:35.119 There's like a lot more to take in, and this 1155 01:39:35.199 --> 01:39:37.039 is kind of a logical stopping point. You'll see what 1156 01:39:37.119 --> 01:39:39.119 I mean. We'll get in the next episode. If that's cool. 1157 01:39:39.560 --> 01:39:43.319 Yep, that works. Two plugs real quick from on line. 1158 01:39:44.840 --> 01:39:48.720 Yeah, man, you'll find me on Twitter at Capital r 1159 01:39:48.720 --> 01:39:54.039 e a l underscore number seven him as seven seven seven. 1160 01:39:55.039 --> 01:39:58.520 You'll find me on substick real Thomas seven seven seven 1161 01:39:58.560 --> 01:40:01.960 at subset dot com. I got a pot on there, 1162 01:40:01.960 --> 01:40:04.560 I got long from on there, I got a Mersh line. 1163 01:40:04.560 --> 01:40:08.840 Now it should be so kind, like we drop the 1164 01:40:09.119 --> 01:40:14.600 Mersh address and on the description section, you know, buy 1165 01:40:14.640 --> 01:40:17.920 like really dope shirts and flags and stuff like that 1166 01:40:18.560 --> 01:40:23.640 that I think are really cool. My uh the artist 1167 01:40:23.720 --> 01:40:27.079 who who mocked him up, Hair Kreeg. He's he's He's 1168 01:40:27.079 --> 01:40:32.239 fucking incredible, Just an incredible dude and a fine artist. 1169 01:40:32.520 --> 01:40:35.800 I'm working on this documentary of our and Taylor. I'm 1170 01:40:35.840 --> 01:40:39.199 going to the DNC convention in a few weeks. And again, 1171 01:40:39.239 --> 01:40:41.439 I am sorry to everybody I had to miss Nashville 1172 01:40:42.479 --> 01:40:45.000 this weekend, but I got to see my strength. Man. 1173 01:40:45.039 --> 01:40:47.640 I'm sorry to sound like some like banged up freaking 1174 01:40:48.000 --> 01:40:52.640 old lady or something, but as far as my plugs 1175 01:40:52.640 --> 01:40:56.039 like seeking you so fine man in my Instagram, you know, 1176 01:40:56.079 --> 01:40:59.640 I'm all over the place. I'm trying to bear down now. 1177 01:41:00.000 --> 01:41:09.199 And you know this uh, this documentary kind of video 1178 01:41:09.199 --> 01:41:12.520 content type stuff which I which which I think is 1179 01:41:13.039 --> 01:41:15.720 not that I don't know, some pretentious. I think there's 1180 01:41:15.720 --> 01:41:18.840 a profundity to it, man, but also it's this is 1181 01:41:18.920 --> 01:41:22.520 important history that's going to be lost then. But that 1182 01:41:22.760 --> 01:41:25.399 and my manuscript is kind of like my my big 1183 01:41:25.439 --> 01:41:30.199 focus right now. But I'm always available to do pods 1184 01:41:30.239 --> 01:41:34.079 man like uh never ever hesitate to ask me. Yeah, 1185 01:41:34.119 --> 01:41:38.840 let's let's reconvene and and do part two of Lady, 1186 01:41:38.920 --> 01:41:41.359 and we should watch we should watch another movie too, man, 1187 01:41:41.439 --> 01:41:43.279 so we can. 1188 01:41:44.720 --> 01:41:48.000 Oh yeah, we're gonna do that. Well we uh while 1189 01:41:48.000 --> 01:41:49.840 we sign off, I'm gonna recommend a movie. 1190 01:41:50.880 --> 01:41:54.039 Yeah man. Yeah, well thanks, yep, take care. 1191 01:41:56.319 --> 01:42:00.760 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecingano Show. Thomas, 1192 01:42:00.840 --> 01:42:01.359 how are you doing? 1193 01:42:02.000 --> 01:42:03.279 And well thanks for hosting me. 1194 01:42:04.199 --> 01:42:06.840 Yeah, yeah, let's get uh, let's get part two of 1195 01:42:06.920 --> 01:42:09.399 Operation Gladio going. It's been a little while, you know, 1196 01:42:09.600 --> 01:42:12.159 I've been busy and decided to take a break for 1197 01:42:12.239 --> 01:42:16.239 one episode and uh talk about current events. But yeah, 1198 01:42:16.399 --> 01:42:18.079 I'm eager for this. Let's do it. 1199 01:42:19.039 --> 01:42:23.439 I think I left off talking about public diplomacy and 1200 01:42:23.520 --> 01:42:29.479 talking uh the civili about Sir John Hackett and his 1201 01:42:29.800 --> 01:42:34.119 uh you know, in his his conflict model, his predicted 1202 01:42:34.199 --> 01:42:39.520 conflict model. Those then later made available and marketed as 1203 01:42:39.760 --> 01:42:44.359 you know, in book form, you know, as a bit 1204 01:42:44.359 --> 01:42:50.640 of strategic forecasting, you know, like like fiction. And I 1205 01:42:50.680 --> 01:42:54.720 think I was discussing that to emphasize did agree to 1206 01:42:54.760 --> 01:43:03.399 which you know, convention know four structure planning returned in 1207 01:43:03.520 --> 01:43:09.319 earnest you know, not just in policy corridors, but it 1208 01:43:09.319 --> 01:43:11.640 was it was very much at the forefront of in 1209 01:43:11.680 --> 01:43:13.840 the minds of public intellectuals, you know, people at Thomas 1210 01:43:13.880 --> 01:43:19.359 shilling people you know, like like Hackett himself, you know, 1211 01:43:19.399 --> 01:43:27.039 the emergency deeper parodies and you know countermeasures uh against 1212 01:43:27.479 --> 01:43:32.279 both you know, long range nuclear weapons platforms as well 1213 01:43:32.279 --> 01:43:38.520 as theater based weapons systems, you know, led people to 1214 01:43:38.600 --> 01:43:46.239 realize that that conventional forces had had acquired a new relevancy, 1215 01:43:47.000 --> 01:43:52.399 and obviously there's a political aspect of that very much 1216 01:43:52.439 --> 01:43:57.680 related to, you know, how to manage a potential occupation 1217 01:43:57.800 --> 01:44:03.039 by Soviet forces. And that's really what that that's really 1218 01:44:03.039 --> 01:44:08.520 what gave sort of momentum to GLADIOH from something that 1219 01:44:08.600 --> 01:44:11.600 was just sort of bandied about in in think tanks 1220 01:44:11.600 --> 01:44:17.399 and and various defense ministries and in the constellation of 1221 01:44:17.560 --> 01:44:21.479 states that made up NATO, and you know, it became 1222 01:44:21.520 --> 01:44:28.680 a real essential aspect of of war planning for the 1223 01:44:28.680 --> 01:44:36.079 Western Alliance and uh, I think particularly the experience of 1224 01:44:36.199 --> 01:44:39.840 Vietnam as well as some of these experiences in in 1225 01:44:40.000 --> 01:44:43.920 Latin America and Africa. You know, you don't you don't 1226 01:44:43.920 --> 01:44:47.840 want to wait until the onset of hostilities to develop 1227 01:44:47.920 --> 01:44:51.720 what Frank Kittson called, you know, your your counterinserviancy element. 1228 01:44:51.960 --> 01:44:53.960 You know, you want that to be part of your 1229 01:44:55.560 --> 01:45:02.600 force structure and being okay, and also especially in Italy, 1230 01:45:02.800 --> 01:45:08.079 but in other states too. You know, there was a 1231 01:45:08.159 --> 01:45:16.439 radical right wing that were it not assimilated in some 1232 01:45:16.479 --> 01:45:22.920 sort of formal capacity into the into the into the 1233 01:45:22.960 --> 01:45:28.920 formal political and military structure like the former kind of 1234 01:45:29.119 --> 01:45:37.079 the formal sort of you know, conflict readiness paradigm. You know, 1235 01:45:37.119 --> 01:45:39.439 these these these people could have caused a whole lot 1236 01:45:39.439 --> 01:45:43.039 of problems, you know, I mean, they did cause problems. 1237 01:45:43.079 --> 01:45:47.159 I'm talking within the bound of rationality of old world logic. 1238 01:45:47.279 --> 01:45:50.680 I'm not rendering an absolute judgment on these people's values 1239 01:45:50.720 --> 01:45:57.119 and what they considered to be acceptable, owing to you know, 1240 01:45:57.199 --> 01:46:01.840 what was in their perception an ongoing emergency. But it 1241 01:46:01.840 --> 01:46:06.479 was an odd sort of conspiracy of historical variables, particularly 1242 01:46:06.520 --> 01:46:09.560 in the final phase of the Cold War, that you know, 1243 01:46:09.640 --> 01:46:12.800 kind of like led to this being. Is something that 1244 01:46:13.399 --> 01:46:16.760 was developed in earnest and then taken seriously by people 1245 01:46:16.840 --> 01:46:24.319 like a different a different paradigm with with less binary 1246 01:46:25.359 --> 01:46:28.800 possible outcomes and event of hostilities. It's not something that 1247 01:46:28.880 --> 01:46:33.000 really would have it sounds that really would have acquired 1248 01:46:34.039 --> 01:46:40.840 legs metaphorically speaking, you know. And and like we talked 1249 01:46:40.880 --> 01:46:44.600 about command and control, really what under like the revolution 1250 01:46:44.720 --> 01:46:47.760 and military affairs, which was a real thing. It wasn't 1251 01:46:47.880 --> 01:46:53.399 just a propaganda work to intimidate Warsaw Pact. It wasn't 1252 01:46:53.439 --> 01:46:56.520 just something that wore college types or constantly looking for 1253 01:46:56.600 --> 01:47:01.640 ways to kind of tweak not just force structure, but doctrine, 1254 01:47:02.039 --> 01:47:09.239 like kind of P NUMBERC doctrine it. It had a 1255 01:47:09.359 --> 01:47:17.239 real core of realism to it, you know, the kind 1256 01:47:17.239 --> 01:47:20.840 of the computing revolution and the emergence a true high 1257 01:47:20.880 --> 01:47:24.600 tech you know, at the very close of the nineteen seventies, 1258 01:47:24.640 --> 01:47:27.239 and they're like the very very early nineteen eighties, like 1259 01:47:27.279 --> 01:47:31.960 this changed everything. Okay, and America and NATO, they never 1260 01:47:32.079 --> 01:47:39.359 had the same kind of rigid commitment, arguably inflexible commitment 1261 01:47:39.520 --> 01:47:45.000 that the Warsaw Pact had, you know, to treating things, 1262 01:47:45.239 --> 01:47:49.600 to treating battle doctrine almost like regulation and not deviating 1263 01:47:49.680 --> 01:47:54.119 from that. You know, they didn't do that, but they 1264 01:47:54.159 --> 01:48:00.520 were similarly interested in eliminating uncertainties from the bad space 1265 01:48:00.560 --> 01:48:06.279 in terms of operational outcomes, okay, and command to control, 1266 01:48:07.199 --> 01:48:13.640 which also spills over into in devetails with situational awareness, 1267 01:48:14.039 --> 01:48:17.640 you know, up to the minute, if not the moment. 1268 01:48:18.520 --> 01:48:22.039 You know, this was a real thing. And one of 1269 01:48:22.039 --> 01:48:26.079 the things that it takes on an outside significance when 1270 01:48:26.079 --> 01:48:29.560 you're trying to control the battle space and a future 1271 01:48:29.600 --> 01:48:36.279 conflict in that capacity is there's there's outliers that are 1272 01:48:37.239 --> 01:48:41.640 unconventional in nature, Okay, both in absolute terms as well 1273 01:48:41.680 --> 01:48:46.359 as in according to the rationale of military science. Okay, 1274 01:48:47.000 --> 01:48:51.960 So you couldn't really leave these elements that were already 1275 01:48:52.000 --> 01:48:56.199 existing and kind of coalescing, you know, in Italy and 1276 01:48:56.239 --> 01:49:00.680 in the Bentalic States, to a less a degree, in 1277 01:49:00.720 --> 01:49:04.279 the Buddhist Republic, Like, you couldn't just leave these kind 1278 01:49:04.279 --> 01:49:13.920 of resurgent through or vestigial fascists and national socialist cadres. 1279 01:49:13.960 --> 01:49:15.920 You couldn't just kind of like leave them alone and 1280 01:49:16.720 --> 01:49:20.640 hope they behave themselves. You know. But then suddenly, you know, 1281 01:49:21.800 --> 01:49:26.399 when war arrives, you know, you have a problem with 1282 01:49:26.479 --> 01:49:29.680 these people. And then like while you're while you're fighting 1283 01:49:29.720 --> 01:49:37.399 the Soviet Union and warsaw packed, you know, the outcome 1284 01:49:37.399 --> 01:49:39.560 of which probably would have been decided within like seventy 1285 01:49:39.560 --> 01:49:42.399 two to one hundred hours in the initial phase. I mean, 1286 01:49:43.199 --> 01:49:45.399 you know, it just was it was a recipe for 1287 01:49:45.479 --> 01:49:48.760 disaster to say like, oh well, we're just we're just 1288 01:49:48.760 --> 01:49:52.600 going to like address this contingency when it emerges. You know, 1289 01:49:52.680 --> 01:49:57.560 that's not realistic. So that was that's something to keep 1290 01:49:57.560 --> 01:49:59.720 in mind, you know, kind of like a very different 1291 01:50:00.279 --> 01:50:05.199 initiative in terms of it's underlying reasoning, in terms of 1292 01:50:06.199 --> 01:50:09.520 you know, its application of force, and in terms of 1293 01:50:09.560 --> 01:50:12.600 its purpose, Like the Phoenix Program, I raised because people 1294 01:50:12.600 --> 01:50:16.239 act like the Phoenix programs like this sinister thing. You know, 1295 01:50:17.880 --> 01:50:21.560 there was nothing nice about it. It definitely blurred the 1296 01:50:21.560 --> 01:50:27.079 line between you know, civilian in combatant, and it pretty 1297 01:50:27.159 --> 01:50:30.600 much flew in the face of what was at least 1298 01:50:30.600 --> 01:50:34.159 formal precedent as regards the laws and customs of war 1299 01:50:35.079 --> 01:50:38.000 and what is legitimate what and who is legitimate target 1300 01:50:38.159 --> 01:50:43.920 and who is not. But there's an organic quality to 1301 01:50:46.159 --> 01:50:51.359 two doctrines that develop incident too and then anticipation of 1302 01:50:51.479 --> 01:50:57.000 armed hostilities. Okay, so they're really there wasn't some like 1303 01:50:57.199 --> 01:51:02.600 sinister thing about surrounding Edo. It wasn't some shadow government 1304 01:51:02.640 --> 01:51:05.640 waiting in the wings, because oh then NATO was actually 1305 01:51:05.800 --> 01:51:09.920 you know, occulted fascist and it's it wasn't that, you know, 1306 01:51:10.560 --> 01:51:15.279 these guys were you know, secretly indexed with the government 1307 01:51:15.319 --> 01:51:17.520 and they were just like mask reading as extremists to 1308 01:51:17.600 --> 01:51:21.640 kind of try and get an understanding of of of 1309 01:51:21.680 --> 01:51:24.760 how exactly how many people in the population at large 1310 01:51:25.119 --> 01:51:28.039 was sympathetic to these ideas and then in turn could 1311 01:51:28.039 --> 01:51:29.960 be mobilized. It was nothing like that, Okay. It was 1312 01:51:30.039 --> 01:51:35.399 very organic. Okay, whether people agree with it on ethical 1313 01:51:35.479 --> 01:51:43.279 or doctrinal terms, or not, that was essential and one 1314 01:51:43.319 --> 01:51:46.119 of the reasons one of the ways NATO survived, especially 1315 01:51:46.199 --> 01:51:49.840 after France about out, despite continuing to participate in a 1316 01:51:49.840 --> 01:51:53.239 lot of a lot of command post exercise for NATO. 1317 01:51:53.880 --> 01:51:59.760 You know, it was the nuclear question changed things, obviously, 1318 01:52:00.119 --> 01:52:00.640 but it was. 1319 01:52:00.600 --> 01:52:05.760 One of the the main thing that that changed was 1320 01:52:05.800 --> 01:52:08.880 that NATO kind of developed into and one of the 1321 01:52:08.920 --> 01:52:11.840 reasons it's obsolete today among the many, but NATO kind 1322 01:52:11.840 --> 01:52:15.399 of developed into by about nineteen eighty, like late. 1323 01:52:16.920 --> 01:52:20.560 Very late seventies, early eighties, it kind of morphed into 1324 01:52:20.640 --> 01:52:29.399 this sort of forum to integrate and optimize assets of 1325 01:52:29.439 --> 01:52:35.079 the several member states and in so doing also kind 1326 01:52:35.119 --> 01:52:39.640 of marshaling, mobilizing and optimizing assets that were just like 1327 01:52:39.680 --> 01:52:44.680 intrinsic to the battlespace, like literally natural features of Europe, 1328 01:52:47.159 --> 01:52:50.479 you know, within the territories that constant of the alliance, 1329 01:52:50.520 --> 01:52:54.960 as well as within spaces that were undoubtedly going to 1330 01:52:55.000 --> 01:53:02.159 be you know, the setting for future engagements nature. You know, 1331 01:53:02.399 --> 01:53:07.640 so everything from you know, setting up logistical infrastructure to 1332 01:53:07.680 --> 01:53:11.640 facilitate rapid reinforcement, you know, in terms of uh, you know, 1333 01:53:11.680 --> 01:53:18.960 homogenizing the gauge of of railroad tracking to you know, 1334 01:53:19.079 --> 01:53:26.479 making sure that the properly uh paved roads were uh 1335 01:53:27.000 --> 01:53:32.880 you know, abutted the essential uh like the essential choke 1336 01:53:32.960 --> 01:53:36.039 points as it were, where you know, NATO is likely 1337 01:53:36.079 --> 01:53:40.279 to be able to hold op for you know, for 1338 01:53:40.359 --> 01:53:44.840 at least you know, forty eight hours or so, you 1339 01:53:44.880 --> 01:53:48.119 know it. It's what an aspect of this too is 1340 01:53:48.119 --> 01:53:52.279 a utilizing the terrain a lot of a lot of 1341 01:53:52.319 --> 01:53:58.119 theater based nuclear weapons we're actually based on on farmland, 1342 01:53:58.720 --> 01:54:02.439 you know, and and getting getting these farmers to agree 1343 01:54:02.439 --> 01:54:05.560 to that, like it took some out and out bribery 1344 01:54:05.640 --> 01:54:09.039 as well as you know, very kind of aggressive political 1345 01:54:09.039 --> 01:54:13.680 finesse and I'm sure in some cases threats. But you know, 1346 01:54:13.720 --> 01:54:23.840 the human aspect of ecologies, discrete ecologies within defined territorial spaces, 1347 01:54:24.359 --> 01:54:27.159 I mean that they're not only an important answer to 1348 01:54:27.239 --> 01:54:31.079 that think may be the most important aspect. Okay, So 1349 01:54:32.800 --> 01:54:42.119 people likely to become partisans in event of warsaw Pack conquest, 1350 01:54:42.279 --> 01:54:46.039 you know, these were people who already existed, you know, 1351 01:54:46.199 --> 01:54:49.520 and kind of drilling them into a viable you know, 1352 01:54:49.680 --> 01:55:01.039 stay behind military force or paramilitary force built around you know, 1353 01:55:01.079 --> 01:55:06.039 what kind of a kind of counterinsurgent cadre structure that 1354 01:55:05.880 --> 01:55:10.439 that only tracked with like the overall disposition of what 1355 01:55:10.560 --> 01:55:19.079 constanted preperedness and what constituted adequate force structures you know, 1356 01:55:19.199 --> 01:55:23.800 to survive, if not actually defeat were saw packed in 1357 01:55:24.000 --> 01:55:30.399 uh in general uh war conventional or otherwise. You know. 1358 01:55:30.800 --> 01:55:37.439 So these uh, these guys in the Italian social movement, 1359 01:55:38.920 --> 01:55:41.640 you know, these these these these national socialist guys who 1360 01:55:44.079 --> 01:55:48.039 you know already had kind of a self structure their own, 1361 01:55:49.760 --> 01:55:55.840 you know, these these uh, these guys who were affiliated 1362 01:55:55.880 --> 01:56:00.000 with the non traditional conservative elements, but like we're very 1363 01:56:00.159 --> 01:56:06.199 much you know, engaged in the Cold War. Like these 1364 01:56:06.239 --> 01:56:09.880 people had to be brought into the fold in some way, 1365 01:56:09.880 --> 01:56:17.680 shape or form, Okay, And this had precedents, I mean 1366 01:56:17.720 --> 01:56:20.399 even in Europe, you know obviously like both the exists 1367 01:56:20.399 --> 01:56:23.119 and the Allies. You know, you're talking about OSS or 1368 01:56:23.199 --> 01:56:28.760 the the od there the Ladder, which had all kinds 1369 01:56:28.760 --> 01:56:35.880 of problems and was shot through with with with some outtraders. 1370 01:56:35.880 --> 01:56:41.079 But there's also some you know, there's there were some 1371 01:56:41.159 --> 01:56:45.960 aspects of it, particularly I don't know how intelligence agencies 1372 01:56:46.039 --> 01:56:49.000 like break down what would be the equivalent of an 1373 01:56:49.079 --> 01:56:51.720 order of battle, but there were there were there were 1374 01:56:51.760 --> 01:56:55.399 company level elements, if that's the proper way to conceptualize it, 1375 01:56:56.520 --> 01:57:00.279 who had no truck with Canarists, had no only idea 1376 01:57:00.359 --> 01:57:04.439 he was even you know, conspiring against the fear and 1377 01:57:04.479 --> 01:57:08.039 the party, you know, who were very much engaged in 1378 01:57:09.000 --> 01:57:13.680 doing things like you know, identifying chet Nicks that you know, 1379 01:57:13.920 --> 01:57:16.199 we're we're not just fighting the Partisans, but you know, 1380 01:57:16.239 --> 01:57:19.359 we're also fighting other factions at chet Nicks and basically 1381 01:57:19.439 --> 01:57:25.119 found themselves you know, adjacent to uh, the access powers 1382 01:57:25.119 --> 01:57:27.680 and theater and what they want to accomplish, you know. 1383 01:57:27.720 --> 01:57:32.199 And and these guys are brought in the fold okay, 1384 01:57:32.840 --> 01:57:37.640 America obviously OSS and and British secret intelligence. They're constantly 1385 01:57:37.640 --> 01:57:42.439 trying to they're constantly trying to identify, you know, French 1386 01:57:42.520 --> 01:57:45.560 resistance types who they could insist, you know, we're not 1387 01:57:45.640 --> 01:57:48.239 actually communists. And they were failing at that in terms 1388 01:57:48.239 --> 01:57:51.159 of ideological bonafides. But that's not the reason why like 1389 01:57:51.199 --> 01:57:53.600 the Gaul becomes such an important front man to them. 1390 01:57:53.640 --> 01:57:56.319 It's not that these it's not these like partisans stay 1391 01:57:56.359 --> 01:57:58.960 behind elements in France, like just like a level of 1392 01:57:59.039 --> 01:58:02.600 trills to golf so much. It's that, uh, you know, 1393 01:58:02.640 --> 01:58:06.920 in the Anglophone world especially, he could be held out 1394 01:58:06.960 --> 01:58:10.880 as kind of a catalyzing figure that the people would accept, 1395 01:58:10.920 --> 01:58:13.960 you know, and when the when the reality of uh, 1396 01:58:15.079 --> 01:58:17.960 when the reality of of of the elements that you know, 1397 01:58:18.000 --> 01:58:22.640 supposedly he inspired and upon his you know stage return 1398 01:58:22.720 --> 01:58:24.880 to France to be the commander of it. I mean 1399 01:58:25.159 --> 01:58:27.680 often these people had like no trouble them whatsoever. But 1400 01:58:29.560 --> 01:58:33.680 you know, it's the it's the appearance, uh that matters, 1401 01:58:33.720 --> 01:58:38.079 and the ability to you know, finesses that people will 1402 01:58:38.119 --> 01:58:47.399 basically accept it. You know. The U in nineteen forty seven, 1403 01:58:48.920 --> 01:58:51.279 that's kind of the critical year in my opinion, and 1404 01:58:51.359 --> 01:58:55.800 in terms of like the first real kind of the 1405 01:58:55.800 --> 01:59:02.319 first real kind of like integrated NATO war planning what 1406 01:59:02.439 --> 01:59:09.720 became NATO, This this kind of like integrated operational structure 1407 01:59:10.439 --> 01:59:15.800 sort of like emerged, you know. It was nineteen forty 1408 01:59:15.840 --> 01:59:22.760 seven in France, the United Kingdom, the Benelux states. They 1409 01:59:25.000 --> 01:59:31.119 they had commissioned well came to me known as the 1410 01:59:31.199 --> 01:59:36.159 quote Western Union Clandestine Committee, which technically was just kind 1411 01:59:36.159 --> 01:59:39.760 of like this academic forum of like military officers and 1412 01:59:40.239 --> 01:59:46.359 conflict specialists in military science types. But it was its 1413 01:59:46.399 --> 01:59:50.520 work was informing policy in a direct way. It was 1414 01:59:50.520 --> 01:59:58.479 like a direct pipeline to the several defense departments of 1415 01:59:58.479 --> 02:00:02.399 of post war Europe. And one of the first things 1416 02:00:02.439 --> 02:00:07.399 they did was create at least on at least formally, 1417 02:00:08.600 --> 02:00:13.760 was create a joint policy and stay behind elements, you know. 1418 02:00:16.119 --> 02:00:21.800 And this was what was presented by the Europeans in 1419 02:00:22.399 --> 02:00:24.800 ninety fifty one, after you know, NATO had formally come 1420 02:00:24.840 --> 02:00:30.000 to existence, that this whole, this format, this Clandestine Committee, 1421 02:00:30.800 --> 02:00:34.479 it was basically formally assimilated into in the NATO or 1422 02:00:34.520 --> 02:00:40.439 on ninety fifty one, fifty two, okay, and that's when 1423 02:00:40.640 --> 02:00:46.000 Supreme Allied Commander Europe, you know, in other words, you know, 1424 02:00:46.039 --> 02:00:55.520 the Americans, they they established they were own kind of 1425 02:00:55.520 --> 02:01:00.479 assimile of it, which was also like you know, had 1426 02:01:00.560 --> 02:01:11.960 jurisdiction over earlier incarnations such as the Western Union Klindestine Committee. 1427 02:01:13.359 --> 02:01:20.800 They UH she Supreme Allied Command Commander Europe UH branded 1428 02:01:20.800 --> 02:01:26.600 this UH committee the quote Clandestine Planning Committee, and it 1429 02:01:26.680 --> 02:01:30.640 was housed at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers in Europe. I mean, 1430 02:01:30.640 --> 02:01:33.319 this was taken very seriously, you know, and of course 1431 02:01:33.359 --> 02:01:37.039 America at that time was was engaged in Korea in 1432 02:01:37.079 --> 02:01:41.399 a very a very brutal war, you know, and not 1433 02:01:41.399 --> 02:01:45.279 not just was not was America engaged against you know, 1434 02:01:45.319 --> 02:01:47.399 the North Korean Army, but you know they were engaged 1435 02:01:47.399 --> 02:01:50.760 against the Chinese people of Origion Army. Okay, this was 1436 02:01:51.520 --> 02:02:00.520 very critical time. The peacetime role obviously of uh the 1437 02:02:00.560 --> 02:02:07.560 Glendeston Planning Committee, you know what a basically to coordinate 1438 02:02:08.079 --> 02:02:12.760 the different military and paramilitary plans and kind of conceptual 1439 02:02:12.840 --> 02:02:17.359 paradigms in the several states and adjacent partners states like 1440 02:02:17.399 --> 02:02:20.760 you know, Switchland to Austria and then later France in 1441 02:02:20.840 --> 02:02:24.279 order to both like avoid you know, like duplicate committees. 1442 02:02:25.840 --> 02:02:31.279 You know that, especially in military capacities at the command level, 1443 02:02:31.319 --> 02:02:33.840 at the general command level, you can't have like, as 1444 02:02:33.840 --> 02:02:35.800 it said, too many cooks in the kitchen without every 1445 02:02:35.920 --> 02:02:44.600 real problems. Okay, So Supreme l i'd command. They were 1446 02:02:44.680 --> 02:02:47.399 sending a message like, look, you know that that's not 1447 02:02:47.560 --> 02:02:49.840 happening what we just described. You're not You're not all 1448 02:02:49.840 --> 02:02:53.359 going to develop your own policy on houses coordinated. There's 1449 02:02:53.359 --> 02:02:56.279 gonna be one policy. It's it's going to be an 1450 02:02:56.319 --> 02:02:59.720 integrated command and control structure, and it's going to be 1451 02:02:59.720 --> 02:03:07.960 treated basically like any other like any other NATO Branch 1452 02:03:08.720 --> 02:03:17.840 Combat Element. Okay, there is two groups formed within uh 1453 02:03:18.439 --> 02:03:24.479 this uh, this clandestine Planning Committee, one of which was 1454 02:03:24.640 --> 02:03:33.760 uh pretty much exclusively focused on on communications, you know, 1455 02:03:33.840 --> 02:03:42.760 and and homogenizing language fluency and familiarity with you know, 1456 02:03:43.159 --> 02:03:51.000 essentially uh, the platforms, the weapons platforms, the command and 1457 02:03:51.039 --> 02:03:58.239 control technologies, everything else you know that was agreed upon 1458 02:03:58.279 --> 02:04:00.479 to be utilized. One of the we this is a 1459 02:04:00.479 --> 02:04:09.119 warsaw pact was that you know, German uh like not 1460 02:04:09.239 --> 02:04:13.800 spell folks. Army officers probably above the equivalent of captain, 1461 02:04:14.279 --> 02:04:16.920 like most of them had at least some fluency in Russian. 1462 02:04:17.319 --> 02:04:20.840 Like most Russians did not speak speak German. You know, 1463 02:04:20.920 --> 02:04:23.880 most of the Germans did not speak Polish. You know. 1464 02:04:23.960 --> 02:04:29.359 The uh you had the the Baltic people, a lot 1465 02:04:29.359 --> 02:04:33.479 of them spoke like neither Russian nor German. You know. 1466 02:04:33.720 --> 02:04:39.199 So there was this this uh led to kind of 1467 02:04:39.199 --> 02:04:43.039 like a house divided, I mean commanding control level that's fataled. 1468 02:04:44.199 --> 02:04:47.560 So NATO, you know, they they integrated their rank structure, 1469 02:04:48.119 --> 02:04:51.800 you know, these like formal equivalents of uh like like 1470 02:04:51.840 --> 02:04:55.399 what like uh, well like an E three is six 1471 02:04:55.439 --> 02:05:02.840 and everything. Okay, they uh it was you know they 1472 02:05:03.039 --> 02:05:07.079 it was decided you know, like in what command, I 1473 02:05:07.079 --> 02:05:09.840 mean different commands, like different languages would be favored like 1474 02:05:09.880 --> 02:05:15.439 within that command based on you know, the the the 1475 02:05:15.199 --> 02:05:20.880 the ethnic constitution of primary elements in theater. But uh, 1476 02:05:21.600 --> 02:05:26.720 basically like fluency, basic fluency and like German or English 1477 02:05:26.880 --> 02:05:34.720 like was was essential. You know, they're uh, there was 1478 02:05:34.760 --> 02:05:38.439 an integration of uh, like the main battle tanks used 1479 02:05:39.079 --> 02:05:45.199 you know, like uh back then, Uh, it was less complicated. 1480 02:05:45.640 --> 02:05:49.159 It was far more brutal and perilous to like be 1481 02:05:49.239 --> 02:05:53.039 part of a tank crew, but it was comparatively like 1482 02:05:53.079 --> 02:05:56.079 little tech compared to like we'd used to. But you know, 1483 02:05:56.159 --> 02:05:58.760 like they you know, like American tank crew has become 1484 02:05:58.800 --> 02:06:01.680 familiar with you know, like we like British tanks and 1485 02:06:01.760 --> 02:06:04.880 vice versa, and like both would you know, become familiar 1486 02:06:04.960 --> 02:06:09.880 with you know, like German panthers that were in heaviest 1487 02:06:09.880 --> 02:06:15.319 deployment and things like that. You know, So similarly, you know, 1488 02:06:18.800 --> 02:06:22.119 the way this the dis vision towards stay behind elements 1489 02:06:22.159 --> 02:06:29.520 and partisans was was homogenized, you know, and and brought 1490 02:06:29.560 --> 02:06:37.000 into this homogenization process of of command and control. And 1491 02:06:37.000 --> 02:06:42.560 in addition to that working group that you know focused 1492 02:06:42.600 --> 02:06:50.199 on communication and networks and everything else. There's another working 1493 02:06:50.239 --> 02:06:53.359 group you know, or committee if you will, called the 1494 02:06:53.399 --> 02:06:58.319 Special Projects Branch, and that basically you would it would 1495 02:06:58.399 --> 02:07:02.520 work a different scenarios, okay, I know it. Try and determine, okay, 1496 02:07:02.560 --> 02:07:05.199 like what what what? What are the capabilities of these 1497 02:07:05.239 --> 02:07:07.640 stay of these stay behind units, Like what can they 1498 02:07:07.680 --> 02:07:13.760 actually do? You know? What's their mission orientation? And concrete terms, 1499 02:07:14.239 --> 02:07:16.520 you know, like what what are they? What are they? 1500 02:07:16.520 --> 02:07:18.279 What are they trying to strike at? You know, like 1501 02:07:18.319 --> 02:07:21.439 are they trying to are they trying to index with 1502 02:07:21.640 --> 02:07:26.279 civilian elements that can either be cajoled into cooperating with 1503 02:07:26.359 --> 02:07:29.319 them or who are naturally disposed to be friendly to 1504 02:07:29.319 --> 02:07:31.760 them anyway? You know? Basically, are they like a European 1505 02:07:31.880 --> 02:07:35.399 Viet cong except on the right? Are they? Are they 1506 02:07:35.439 --> 02:07:39.119 basically like a reserve element so that when you know, 1507 02:07:39.199 --> 02:07:42.720 mass casualties occur, like these guys can basic rush to 1508 02:07:42.760 --> 02:07:48.319 the front and and and and fill the roles of regulars, 1509 02:07:48.720 --> 02:07:54.600 like are they is their function basically like partisan attacks 1510 02:07:54.600 --> 02:07:59.760 and terrorism, you know, against the East German and Soviet 1511 02:07:59.840 --> 02:08:08.560 and check who occupiers or whatever, and so the Special 1512 02:08:08.600 --> 02:08:20.800 Projects Branch, you know, like clarified this stuff. Okay, Eventually 1513 02:08:20.840 --> 02:08:27.000 this became integrated in UH in nineteen fifty seven, and 1514 02:08:27.039 --> 02:08:30.479 I I think that's really when UH, that's really when 1515 02:08:30.520 --> 02:08:32.760 like NATO came into its own and that's when still 1516 02:08:32.800 --> 02:08:38.359 people were banning about, especially people who did not want, 1517 02:08:39.399 --> 02:08:43.359 especially people who favored like a demilitarization in Germany, you know, 1518 02:08:43.479 --> 02:08:46.439 like the United States and warsaw packs basically out of Europe. 1519 02:08:47.079 --> 02:08:49.439 And their notion was, well, we can create our own 1520 02:08:49.479 --> 02:08:53.479 collective security arrangement with with with without European defense community, 1521 02:08:54.600 --> 02:08:57.800 you know, consisting like the Benelux states, you know, like Germany, 1522 02:08:58.000 --> 02:09:04.000 ideally France, you know, Italy and the UK. And the 1523 02:09:04.079 --> 02:09:08.319 idea was that it would be a totally integrated structure 1524 02:09:08.520 --> 02:09:11.239 and it wouldn't represent like anyone nation. Like one of 1525 02:09:11.279 --> 02:09:14.199 the reasons why I like the BUNDESLH like their uniform 1526 02:09:14.239 --> 02:09:16.520 seems so like dull and there's not even anything like 1527 02:09:16.520 --> 02:09:21.680 about them, that's like, other than the fact that cuff 1528 02:09:21.800 --> 02:09:25.399 titles are still in use, you can't really tell that 1529 02:09:25.760 --> 02:09:29.680 they're like a German army. But the whole the uniforms 1530 02:09:29.680 --> 02:09:35.239 they adopted ultimately was in this era like fifty seven 1531 02:09:36.000 --> 02:09:39.880 and that was like deliberate because the idea was like, Okay, 1532 02:09:39.880 --> 02:09:42.520 this is like the Army of Europe, but we've also 1533 02:09:42.560 --> 02:09:44.239 got to like make it clear that there's not any 1534 02:09:44.319 --> 02:09:48.279 quot unquote like chauvinistic tendencies like avafan SS you know, 1535 02:09:48.359 --> 02:09:52.119 but where you know, where we're kind of just like 1536 02:09:52.119 --> 02:09:59.960 this like European Defense Force and in a in parliament 1537 02:10:00.199 --> 02:10:08.119 committees across the proposed member states. The conceptionally like it 1538 02:10:08.159 --> 02:10:12.600 gained some some ground, but you know it it proved 1539 02:10:12.600 --> 02:10:19.279 basically unworkable, particularly after you know, the things things changed 1540 02:10:19.319 --> 02:10:23.560 in Berlin and it was clear that you know, really 1541 02:10:23.600 --> 02:10:27.439 after Korea in my opinion, and some other things, but 1542 02:10:27.560 --> 02:10:30.319 it became clear that like the Soviets were not they 1543 02:10:31.279 --> 02:10:36.560 and they had no more good faith credibility and as 1544 02:10:36.560 --> 02:10:39.600 of the Soviets Sovits, we're never gonna leave Germany, okay, 1545 02:10:39.640 --> 02:10:44.520 and Berlin particularly it wasn't just like the coveted sort 1546 02:10:44.560 --> 02:10:49.079 of prize on the on the war map, but it 1547 02:10:49.119 --> 02:10:52.479 was it was a thorn in the side of warsaw Pack, 1548 02:10:52.640 --> 02:10:54.560 just like Cuba was a huge thorn in the side 1549 02:10:54.600 --> 02:11:01.119 of you know, the United States. But it that by 1550 02:11:01.239 --> 02:11:04.000 you know, by like nineteen sixty sixty one. I know, 1551 02:11:04.159 --> 02:11:09.439 nobody was talking about a European Defense Committee anymore. But 1552 02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:17.079 one of the things that one of the things that 1553 02:11:17.159 --> 02:11:24.039 came out of kind of this experimental like military culture 1554 02:11:24.039 --> 02:11:32.359 on the continent was the establishment of a combined the 1555 02:11:32.439 --> 02:11:37.920 Six Powers Lions Committee is the United States, United Kingdom, France, 1556 02:11:38.720 --> 02:11:42.479 Benelux countries, you know, all of whom again had been 1557 02:11:42.520 --> 02:11:51.399 involved in developing developing a war plan in doctrinal paradigm 1558 02:11:51.399 --> 02:11:58.880 for the stay behind organizations. But you know when when 1559 02:11:58.880 --> 02:12:06.119 this when the Six Powers Committee like formally convened, which 1560 02:12:06.159 --> 02:12:09.720 became the quote Allied Clandestine Committee, and its final iteration 1561 02:12:09.800 --> 02:12:13.760 of nineteen seventy six was the quote Allied Coordination Committee. 1562 02:12:15.319 --> 02:12:18.600 It literally its functions like the way people described it, 1563 02:12:19.760 --> 02:12:24.680 you know, I'm talking about you know, top NATO brass 1564 02:12:25.640 --> 02:12:29.920 as well as you know, civilian elements, you know, like 1565 02:12:29.960 --> 02:12:32.319 in the in the Bundust Republic government who were like 1566 02:12:32.439 --> 02:12:44.279 indexed with the NATO structure. They uh, they uh, they 1567 02:12:44.359 --> 02:12:48.359 refer to it as specifically, you know, the technical committee 1568 02:12:48.359 --> 02:12:54.680 to bring stay by the organizations together and clearly defined 1569 02:12:55.239 --> 02:13:01.119 like their mission, mandate, force structure and all of that. Okay, 1570 02:13:05.720 --> 02:13:10.640 what was the authority of a supreme all command in Europe, 1571 02:13:11.159 --> 02:13:16.359 and it was basically godlike within its dominion. You know, 1572 02:13:18.920 --> 02:13:21.520 That's one of the things. I mean when you signed 1573 02:13:21.520 --> 02:13:25.920 on for NATO, you signed on to go all in 1574 02:13:27.640 --> 02:13:30.399 when war arrived, were saw packed. I mean you also 1575 02:13:30.680 --> 02:13:38.720 agreed not just tacitly, but in a very what what 1576 02:13:38.720 --> 02:13:45.720 what what would become a very active, actively engaged capacity 1577 02:13:46.439 --> 02:13:49.479 of you know, not just allowing like theater based nuclear 1578 02:13:49.520 --> 02:13:53.359 weapons to be based on your territory, but like essentially 1579 02:13:53.560 --> 02:13:59.279 UH allowing UH America to have you know, control over 1580 02:13:59.279 --> 02:14:01.000 these munitions, you know, I mean it was just like 1581 02:14:01.039 --> 02:14:03.199 one example, I mean at the point somebody the other 1582 02:14:03.319 --> 02:14:11.479 day like when the when when these intermediate range platforms 1583 02:14:11.640 --> 02:14:15.560 plitsic mental platforms arrived in Europe and went platforms like 1584 02:14:15.560 --> 02:14:19.479 the person too, which people find odd these days, but 1585 02:14:19.680 --> 02:14:22.600 was you know the army had was it was an 1586 02:14:22.680 --> 02:14:29.000 army weapons platform like at the folded Gap, it was 1587 02:14:29.039 --> 02:14:36.760 a loof off flowed that retained control over the launch mechanism. 1588 02:14:37.560 --> 02:14:41.000 It was the Americans who retained physical custody of the warheads. 1589 02:14:41.800 --> 02:14:44.880 And you know, if an order came down, you know, 1590 02:14:44.920 --> 02:14:48.439 those wards actually married to their launch vehicles. But I mean, 1591 02:14:48.479 --> 02:14:51.399 obviously it was it was America who had the final 1592 02:14:51.479 --> 02:15:02.920 say on these things, you know, but it uh the 1593 02:15:03.079 --> 02:15:06.319 UH and this is pretty openly talked about, at least 1594 02:15:06.319 --> 02:15:13.920 within within within NATO command corridors. I mean, some of 1595 02:15:13.960 --> 02:15:18.600 the languages was deliberately ambiguous. But it's not. It wasn't 1596 02:15:18.600 --> 02:15:21.520 this like eyes only thing where people would claim like 1597 02:15:21.560 --> 02:15:26.079 it didn't exist, you know, which is kind of interesting. 1598 02:15:26.640 --> 02:15:30.359 And that's why, like when what it came to be 1599 02:15:30.439 --> 02:15:33.279 colloquially and kind of flippantly known as you know, like 1600 02:15:33.319 --> 02:15:36.439 the Years of Lead and Italy jumped off. That's one 1601 02:15:36.479 --> 02:15:40.439 of the reasons why a lot of the media establishment, 1602 02:15:42.000 --> 02:15:50.199 you know, found uh allied command structures to basically be culpable. 1603 02:15:50.800 --> 02:15:52.640 I mean, if you there's a whole other issue, we'd 1604 02:15:52.640 --> 02:15:54.760 probably to get in that another episode, like what were 1605 02:15:54.760 --> 02:15:58.039 the Years of Lead? Like were these were these were 1606 02:15:58.039 --> 02:16:01.920 these self described like fascist? 1607 02:16:02.840 --> 02:16:05.079 I mean they were they were allied with the Red 1608 02:16:05.199 --> 02:16:07.560 Army Froction, the Red Army Froction, and so. 1609 02:16:08.439 --> 02:16:11.520 Yeah, some of them were definitely, Yeah, some of them 1610 02:16:11.640 --> 02:16:13.760 it's not clear who they were. And some of them 1611 02:16:13.800 --> 02:16:17.960 the guys they arrested, it doesn't really track. It was 1612 02:16:18.000 --> 02:16:20.520 like who they could blame these things on, you know, 1613 02:16:20.600 --> 02:16:24.079 but assuming as you know, but the some of the 1614 02:16:24.119 --> 02:16:27.279 subs probably don't like. The claim was that you know, 1615 02:16:27.359 --> 02:16:31.960 this this quote unquote like neo fascist terrorism, which killed 1616 02:16:31.960 --> 02:16:36.200 a lot of people. The claim was that, well, these 1617 02:16:36.200 --> 02:16:43.200 are the stay behind organizations, you know, NATO and these 1618 02:16:43.239 --> 02:16:48.079 you know, right wing governments. They're directing these attacks to 1619 02:16:48.239 --> 02:16:54.239 happen so as to procure you know, like a permanent 1620 02:16:54.239 --> 02:16:58.559 emergency mandate, you know, to basically like militarize the country 1621 02:16:58.600 --> 02:17:06.479 in perpetuity. I mean that's not impossible, but I mean 1622 02:17:08.719 --> 02:17:14.000 the late seventies, early eighties, when you had the Soviet 1623 02:17:14.120 --> 02:17:18.879 Union from a few hundred kilometers away, you know, like 1624 02:17:20.479 --> 02:17:32.399 pointing pointing these like massive i RBMs at Western Europe, 1625 02:17:33.239 --> 02:17:39.040 you know, that had multiple warheads that you know, when 1626 02:17:39.040 --> 02:17:43.079 they hit their target would just like devastate the entire country. 1627 02:17:43.639 --> 02:17:46.840 In the case of like these smaller states, I mean, 1628 02:17:46.840 --> 02:17:48.319 like it's not if you want people to if you 1629 02:17:48.319 --> 02:17:51.000 want to create some sort of like balance of terror 1630 02:17:53.159 --> 02:17:58.319 at in you know, at scale such that you know 1631 02:17:58.360 --> 02:18:02.760 it provides like a catalyst for martial law, I mean, 1632 02:18:02.840 --> 02:18:06.440 you can you don't need to kill eighty people in 1633 02:18:06.479 --> 02:18:10.360 a train station bombing in nineteen eighty. You can say that, like, well, 1634 02:18:10.680 --> 02:18:14.200 the Soviets have targeted us for annihilation and obviously based 1635 02:18:14.239 --> 02:18:19.959 on the deployment pattern, like they now believe that, uh, 1636 02:18:20.639 --> 02:18:24.239 that nuclear that first use of nuclear weapons is perfectly 1637 02:18:24.280 --> 02:18:28.719 acceptable as a means of accomplishing their goals by by 1638 02:18:28.959 --> 02:18:32.840 megacittle force of arms. I mean you ok, there you go. 1639 02:18:33.319 --> 02:18:35.159 You know, like the Soviets gonna kill us all if 1640 02:18:35.159 --> 02:18:39.680 we don't build countermeasures and and and mass arrest people 1641 02:18:39.719 --> 02:18:43.920 who are are not willing to support, you know, the 1642 02:18:43.959 --> 02:18:47.559 war effort when it comes, Like, there's ways, there's ways 1643 02:18:47.600 --> 02:18:50.000 you can do it in epoch or could have done it, 1644 02:18:51.000 --> 02:18:53.200 Like you don't need to like pull off a spectacular 1645 02:18:54.719 --> 02:18:58.079 you know, a series of bombings or shootings and like 1646 02:18:58.200 --> 02:19:00.399 kill a few hundred year own countrymen. Like that's not 1647 02:19:01.799 --> 02:19:04.520 and again it's not impossible, but it just kind of 1648 02:19:04.559 --> 02:19:11.159 defies credibility to me in the absence some more concrete evidence. 1649 02:19:17.479 --> 02:19:25.280 And again this was this was discussed very openly. It 1650 02:19:25.319 --> 02:19:31.000 like US Army at the US Army War College. This 1651 02:19:31.159 --> 02:19:34.719 was circulated later. I mean, it's still in the Cold War. 1652 02:19:35.479 --> 02:19:42.200 I don't know when it first emerged, but there was 1653 02:19:42.280 --> 02:19:47.559 a there was a document like a study put out 1654 02:19:47.600 --> 02:19:58.520 by Supreme Ali Command Europe that from the Supreme Headquarters 1655 02:19:58.520 --> 02:20:03.000 of the Light Powers in Europe. It was titled Supreme 1656 02:20:04.440 --> 02:20:09.479 Headquarters Powers in Europe Problems Outstanding with the quote standing Group. 1657 02:20:11.360 --> 02:20:17.799 There's a subheading number four titled quote special Plans and 1658 02:20:17.920 --> 02:20:27.399 quite literally it it it was Taylor to address, uh, like, 1659 02:20:27.440 --> 02:20:31.159 the DeLine the literal delineation of responsibilities of the quote 1660 02:20:31.159 --> 02:20:38.200 clandestine services. And it went on to say, you know, 1661 02:20:38.360 --> 02:20:44.120 quote the delineation of responsibilities that's a premium and commanded 1662 02:20:44.200 --> 02:20:51.159 Europe on clandestine matters, including quote pertinent definitions and organizations 1663 02:20:51.520 --> 02:20:56.680 and principles for unorthodox warfare planning. You know. So this 1664 02:20:56.920 --> 02:21:00.040 was really at the forefront. And again I don't I 1665 02:21:00.520 --> 02:21:04.680 don't want to go too far afield because this is 1666 02:21:04.680 --> 02:21:07.680 already a dense topic. But you've got to understand the 1667 02:21:07.799 --> 02:21:13.440 overall as the Soviets approach to nuclear parody and arguably 1668 02:21:14.920 --> 02:21:22.159 you know, shot past NATO and specifically United States in 1669 02:21:22.280 --> 02:21:30.360 terms of its strategic nuclear capability. Yeah, like America developing 1670 02:21:32.159 --> 02:21:37.639 countermeasures that you know, characterized by deep parrot what's called 1671 02:21:37.680 --> 02:21:44.559 deep parodies. You know, arguably that kind of neutralized Soviet 1672 02:21:44.559 --> 02:21:49.120 advantages owing to smarter and higher tech. But like, regardless 1673 02:21:49.120 --> 02:21:50.920 of the nuclear weapons are off the table or not, 1674 02:21:51.840 --> 02:21:55.879 even if horizontal escalation was like an inevitability, even you 1675 02:21:55.879 --> 02:21:59.879 could prove that World War three was going to start 1676 02:22:00.719 --> 02:22:08.280 with a conventional like combined arms fight across a massive front, 1677 02:22:08.559 --> 02:22:15.879 and casualties were gonna be utterly horrifying. One of the reasons, uh, 1678 02:22:15.959 --> 02:22:19.879 the tankers on the North German plane, which was mostly 1679 02:22:19.920 --> 02:22:24.879 a British Army area of operation conto the Folded Gap, 1680 02:22:25.360 --> 02:22:29.319 you know, which was patrolled by eleventh Army Calory. You know, 1681 02:22:29.399 --> 02:22:33.760 black Horse is like the lead element. These guys are 1682 02:22:33.799 --> 02:22:36.600 totally knowing certain terms, you know they I mean, they 1683 02:22:36.600 --> 02:22:39.799 were issued in phetamines on the regular. You know you're 1684 02:22:39.799 --> 02:22:41.879 gonna you're gonna have Our job is to hold for 1685 02:22:41.920 --> 02:22:45.719 seventy two hours and you're not gonna survive this. But 1686 02:22:45.879 --> 02:22:52.319 we will hold for seventy two hours without sleep, you know, 1687 02:22:52.600 --> 02:22:57.239 and kill as many, kill as many of Ivan's tanks 1688 02:22:57.319 --> 02:23:01.200 as we can before we get over run. And we 1689 02:23:01.239 --> 02:23:07.559 will get overrun, you know. And the thought was it 1690 02:23:07.639 --> 02:23:09.799 wasn't the thought it was I think it was pretty 1691 02:23:09.840 --> 02:23:15.200 well grounded and based on the inputs that were utilized, 1692 02:23:16.319 --> 02:23:22.920 which for the time was was correct. Within six to 1693 02:23:23.040 --> 02:23:29.440 seven days Warsaw pack that had reached the Rhine, and 1694 02:23:30.520 --> 02:23:35.520 around ninety two ninety three when the old Soviet archives 1695 02:23:35.520 --> 02:23:39.680 that brief period they were basically open, you know, to 1696 02:23:39.799 --> 02:23:45.920 Western historians, including mister Irving, it was pretty clear that 1697 02:23:45.959 --> 02:23:49.520 the Soviets planned once they reached the Rhine to stop, 1698 02:23:50.840 --> 02:23:56.639 to reconstitute, regroup and refit, and then presumably like demand 1699 02:23:56.840 --> 02:24:00.319 like issue surrender terms to the Allies and then you know, 1700 02:24:00.360 --> 02:24:07.040 like demand demand the Allies demure and accept the you know, 1701 02:24:07.120 --> 02:24:11.000 the Soviet dominance of Europe. So it was even like 1702 02:24:11.000 --> 02:24:14.239 a best case scenario. You're you know, you're you're looking 1703 02:24:14.280 --> 02:24:21.600 at being overrun, okay, and the only way to combat 1704 02:24:21.680 --> 02:24:25.239 that you can't you can't you can't combat that from 1705 02:24:25.280 --> 02:24:28.280 the air, okay. You know, the only way to combat 1706 02:24:28.319 --> 02:24:39.600 that is literally on the ground, you know, in a 1707 02:24:39.639 --> 02:24:45.399 way that uh essentially makes the again kind of like 1708 02:24:45.440 --> 02:24:55.239 the social, political and military and paramilitary like ecology essentially 1709 02:24:55.280 --> 02:24:59.319 too hostile and too dangerous and too unstable like for 1710 02:24:59.360 --> 02:25:03.719 the occupied to manage. Okay. And again I mean, for 1711 02:25:03.920 --> 02:25:05.920 this might seem obvious to some people, but it seems 1712 02:25:05.959 --> 02:25:09.159 obvious for the reasons I'm talking about, because that that 1713 02:25:09.239 --> 02:25:20.520 became this essential, this essential aspect of of war doctrine, 1714 02:25:21.840 --> 02:25:30.680 you know, says Clindestine, uh, the Ali Clandestine Coordinating Committee. 1715 02:25:31.399 --> 02:25:35.319 It created what was also known as the several quote 1716 02:25:35.360 --> 02:25:41.120 Allied clindistant Coordinating Groups. And these guys would they the 1717 02:25:41.159 --> 02:25:50.879 liaise on the personnel front with the NATO command elements 1718 02:25:51.399 --> 02:25:54.799 down to like at least battalion level and probably comedy level. 1719 02:25:58.520 --> 02:26:06.040 These uh, the these these coordinating groups were almost exclusively 1720 02:26:06.040 --> 02:26:14.840 staffed by uh, you know, men from from Supreme headquarters, 1721 02:26:15.559 --> 02:26:26.319 you know, Allied UH forces in Europe. The uh, the 1722 02:26:26.399 --> 02:26:29.440 idea was, uh, you know again to create a kind 1723 02:26:29.440 --> 02:26:33.719 of how much an aity of of thought and orientation, 1724 02:26:34.639 --> 02:26:40.000 you know, towards the formal mission statement. Well, uh, at 1725 02:26:40.000 --> 02:26:46.399 the same time kind of tailoring these efforts to address 1726 02:26:46.520 --> 02:26:50.399 and kind of satisfy the local conditions in each of 1727 02:26:50.440 --> 02:26:57.399 these countries, which varied quite a lot, you know, culturally, linguistically, 1728 02:26:58.079 --> 02:27:04.000 you know, the terrain was different, like the way people viewed, uh, 1729 02:27:04.639 --> 02:27:07.760 the way people viewed like the Easterns and the Russians differed. 1730 02:27:08.879 --> 02:27:13.479 You know, it was there's there's political, there was anthropological, 1731 02:27:13.559 --> 02:27:22.879 there was you know, sociological aspects. How these decisions were running. Now, 1732 02:27:26.840 --> 02:27:31.719 an event of World War three, Supreme Allied Commanded Europe 1733 02:27:32.000 --> 02:27:37.159 absolutely intended and was meant to and was structured to 1734 02:27:38.520 --> 02:27:43.000 exercise operational control well for pretty much every aspect of 1735 02:27:43.040 --> 02:27:45.760 the member state. For then the reason without like micromanaging 1736 02:27:45.920 --> 02:27:49.280 or trying to make micromanage you know, like unit or 1737 02:27:49.360 --> 02:27:56.760 into tactics because of self defeating. But so in terms 1738 02:27:56.799 --> 02:28:04.319 of like overall, in terms of like overall strategic orientation, 1739 02:28:04.879 --> 02:28:11.719 there wasn't in forest homogeneity, but to coordinate activities such 1740 02:28:11.799 --> 02:28:16.319 that we're talking about across like all different commands. An 1741 02:28:16.360 --> 02:28:19.280 event of wartime, you know, particularly where you're raising the 1742 02:28:19.360 --> 02:28:22.479 clock because you basically have you know, seventy two hours 1743 02:28:22.520 --> 02:28:26.120 to hold the Soviet Union at Bay on the mainline, 1744 02:28:26.159 --> 02:28:30.559 resistance at Fold in the North Rim and plane. You're 1745 02:28:30.600 --> 02:28:33.239 not gonna be able to just like splendidly like and 1746 02:28:33.600 --> 02:28:41.719 incorporate this structure into in a pre existing community areas. 1747 02:28:42.079 --> 02:28:45.079 I mean, you're gonna have to abide for those differences 1748 02:28:45.120 --> 02:28:49.680 and for those discrete you know kind of sensitivities to 1749 02:28:51.000 --> 02:28:56.159 various things that might seem totally innocuous or ridiculous or whatever. 1750 02:28:56.760 --> 02:28:59.399 You know. So I'm not suggesting this with some like 1751 02:28:59.440 --> 02:29:03.159 well machine, but it was basically I mean that that's 1752 02:29:03.239 --> 02:29:08.799 kind of the best you can do if this is uh, 1753 02:29:09.159 --> 02:29:11.559 if this is the mission orientation, you know, like the 1754 02:29:11.959 --> 02:29:14.239 you get the world as the world is not, you know, 1755 02:29:14.319 --> 02:29:19.520 like the not not not a tlleric utopia or everybody 1756 02:29:19.639 --> 02:29:22.959 is everybody privileges reason over a passion and man is 1757 02:29:23.000 --> 02:29:25.639 basically melible. And I mean that's that's not the way 1758 02:29:25.680 --> 02:29:35.760 things are, you know, I believe. And this takes us 1759 02:29:35.760 --> 02:29:45.559 back some years to it was after you know, the 1760 02:29:45.600 --> 02:29:50.799 Supreme Allied command elements, We're already devising ideas on how 1761 02:29:50.799 --> 02:29:53.760 to incorporate stay behinds into the order of battle and 1762 02:29:53.799 --> 02:29:57.600 the war playing structure. I mean that like again, that 1763 02:29:57.600 --> 02:30:03.280 that that kind of research began in ernest around nineteen 1764 02:30:03.280 --> 02:30:08.639 fifty seven as NATO kind of evolved, and again like 1765 02:30:08.760 --> 02:30:13.079 as as nuclear forces came off the table, as you know, 1766 02:30:13.159 --> 02:30:20.360 both the primary deterrented and the primary kind of assault 1767 02:30:21.520 --> 02:30:31.639 platform you know again, conventional forces and political uh warfare 1768 02:30:31.760 --> 02:30:36.760 took on an outside significance, and in nineteen seventy two, 1769 02:30:38.920 --> 02:30:49.479 a man named Vincenzovi and Seguerra. He's the man who 1770 02:30:50.239 --> 02:30:56.120 was blamed and continues to be for the Patiano massacre 1771 02:30:59.440 --> 02:31:04.600 on May thirty first, ninety seventy two. Patiano is a 1772 02:31:04.639 --> 02:31:13.520 suburb of Cigarato in Italy. Apparently some anonymous call came in, 1773 02:31:13.879 --> 02:31:18.719 you know, this is like provisional Ira style to the 1774 02:31:18.760 --> 02:31:28.639 local police, the Cadabagnetti, I think they're called, telling them 1775 02:31:28.680 --> 02:31:36.159 to check this car, this abandoned car. The car itself 1776 02:31:36.200 --> 02:31:38.799 turned out to be an explosive, like like the whole 1777 02:31:38.840 --> 02:31:40.920 thing was like wired with like I think plass speak. 1778 02:31:42.639 --> 02:31:46.360 So when these coppers investigated it, you know when they 1779 02:31:46.559 --> 02:31:52.040 like Jimmy didor open like like it exploded and and 1780 02:31:52.040 --> 02:31:57.600 and you know killed the I think it killed three 1781 02:31:57.600 --> 02:31:59.399 of the cop three of the five cops, and like 1782 02:31:59.440 --> 02:32:07.799 the others were aimed. But you know, it begs uh. 1783 02:32:08.239 --> 02:32:14.600 There was more severe attacks subsequent, some of which were 1784 02:32:14.719 --> 02:32:17.920 bona fide man's casualty events. But it does beg the 1785 02:32:18.000 --> 02:32:23.639 question like why, And it's not just uh, people like 1786 02:32:23.680 --> 02:32:28.600 Howard's in and with crank ideas you see, like fashion's 1787 02:32:28.639 --> 02:32:33.840 under their bed it's reasonably serious historians who claim that 1788 02:32:33.959 --> 02:32:36.399 like see like this is this is the fruits of 1789 02:32:36.440 --> 02:32:39.000 Operation Ladio, and it's like okay, but like why what 1790 02:32:39.120 --> 02:32:42.239 was the motive of these guys doing this? You know, 1791 02:32:42.440 --> 02:32:44.959 I mean, I like I said, like their claim is that, 1792 02:32:45.440 --> 02:32:47.559 oh well, it was just part of a tension strategy. 1793 02:32:47.600 --> 02:32:52.079 But it's like, but again, like you you don't need 1794 02:32:52.120 --> 02:32:58.360 that when warsaw packed as as twenty three thousand nuclear 1795 02:32:58.399 --> 02:33:02.799 weapons and thousands of them are pointed it at Europe 1796 02:33:02.799 --> 02:33:08.120 at decapitation range. You know, it's kind of the same 1797 02:33:08.120 --> 02:33:11.360 reason in my mind, Like you don't need to like 1798 02:33:11.719 --> 02:33:14.719 blow up the World Trade Center and pretend al Kaeda 1799 02:33:14.799 --> 02:33:18.040 did it to like pass the Patriot Act. You know, 1800 02:33:18.200 --> 02:33:25.000 that's not that's not things worked, you know. I mean 1801 02:33:25.000 --> 02:33:27.239 it's like look at the COVID nonsense that the government 1802 02:33:27.319 --> 02:33:30.239 like murder ten million people to pretend COVID with like 1803 02:33:30.239 --> 02:33:35.959 this deadly virus. Like no, I mean, like it's it's uh, 1804 02:33:36.440 --> 02:33:42.120 that's not really a propaganda works, and people generally go 1805 02:33:42.239 --> 02:33:44.639 along with it, you know, like at the face value. 1806 02:33:44.840 --> 02:33:47.000 You know, and again, especially during the Cold War, there 1807 02:33:47.040 --> 02:33:51.319 was peculiar exigencies due to the history of students of 1808 02:33:51.719 --> 02:33:55.360 history will know, like Juliusavola when he was arrested and 1809 02:33:55.440 --> 02:34:01.120 indicted and he was acquitted. It was events so these 1810 02:34:01.319 --> 02:34:05.399 uh years of light attacks, and the claim was that 1811 02:34:06.319 --> 02:34:09.840 Evla was some kind of like guru figure took this 1812 02:34:10.040 --> 02:34:14.920 cult of like young fascist partisans and so in some 1813 02:34:15.079 --> 02:34:19.639 like in chot way, like he was conspiring to kill 1814 02:34:19.719 --> 02:34:23.079 people with these like terrorists, which made no sense whatsoever 1815 02:34:23.200 --> 02:34:31.159 and basically got lapped out of court. But the perpetrators 1816 02:34:31.200 --> 02:34:40.719 of the Patiano massacre was alleged to be Vincenzo Vinceeguera, 1817 02:34:42.040 --> 02:34:51.920 a guy named Carlo Sicatuni, a guy named Ivano Boccaccino. 1818 02:34:54.360 --> 02:34:59.479 All these guys were members of the New Order was 1819 02:34:59.600 --> 02:35:05.479 Chloe called the New Order. The full name of it 1820 02:35:05.520 --> 02:35:10.319 was the New Order Scholarship Center, okay, which was basically 1821 02:35:12.479 --> 02:35:16.079 it was. It was basically like uh, that kind of 1822 02:35:18.879 --> 02:35:22.520 kind of like neo fascist cell, like intellectual type guys 1823 02:35:22.920 --> 02:35:25.639 who were also in into like paramilitary stuff and things. 1824 02:35:27.040 --> 02:35:30.479 They were big on like Julius Evlon stuff. You know. 1825 02:35:32.840 --> 02:35:35.479 But like I said, it doesn't really like it doesn't 1826 02:35:35.479 --> 02:35:44.680 really track, you know. Bocaccino was in fact he he 1827 02:35:44.680 --> 02:35:46.879 he himself was involved in some of these events, and 1828 02:35:46.959 --> 02:35:52.639 he later was killed like in in murky circumstances during 1829 02:35:52.680 --> 02:35:56.479 like a similar event. You know, some people claim that like, 1830 02:35:56.559 --> 02:35:58.840 well he was like a cop or like some intelligence 1831 02:35:58.879 --> 02:36:01.360 ass that that is possible, or maybe he was just 1832 02:36:01.399 --> 02:36:12.559 like a nut. Okay, Vinciguerta and Cicutini, they were both 1833 02:36:13.159 --> 02:36:21.079 sentenced to life in prison for years. Uh. Cicutini, Uh, 1834 02:36:21.719 --> 02:36:24.520 he fled to Spain, like when the indictment came down 1835 02:36:24.840 --> 02:36:27.319 with the informational complaint. I don't know if in Europe, 1836 02:36:27.360 --> 02:36:31.680 like they actually indict people, they afford people to process, 1837 02:36:31.760 --> 02:36:35.360 at least in a loose sense, like but they I 1838 02:36:35.639 --> 02:36:41.760 think their protocol is different. But he uh, he was 1839 02:36:41.799 --> 02:36:46.200 finally pinched in like you know, nineteen ninety eight, and 1840 02:36:46.239 --> 02:36:49.239 then uh about a decade later, like when his health 1841 02:36:49.319 --> 02:36:51.680 was failing, like they just they just like coult him 1842 02:36:51.719 --> 02:36:55.319 lose it for compassionate release. And it's like, really, man, 1843 02:36:55.399 --> 02:36:58.840 like you, this guy's just like demented terrorists, acording to 1844 02:36:58.840 --> 02:37:02.079 you when you're like cutting them loose for ill health. 1845 02:37:02.159 --> 02:37:06.479 I mean, like the whole the whole thing was strange. 1846 02:37:06.559 --> 02:37:09.040 What's significant too, is that like the New Order and 1847 02:37:09.120 --> 02:37:13.479 this whole, uh, this whole kind of like New Order 1848 02:37:13.639 --> 02:37:17.559 like like think tank or like intellectual kind of cadre, 1849 02:37:17.680 --> 02:37:22.760 do anything about it. Like that. These guys were they 1850 02:37:22.799 --> 02:37:25.680 were born out of the the Italian Social Movement, which 1851 02:37:25.760 --> 02:37:27.639 wasn't me. It was it was an openly like neo 1852 02:37:27.680 --> 02:37:30.760 fascist party, but it was a mainstream party, you know, 1853 02:37:31.000 --> 02:37:35.760 uh like Mussolini's granddaughter, you know, like she was, uh 1854 02:37:36.600 --> 02:37:39.159 she was like a public face of it, you know, 1855 02:37:40.719 --> 02:37:45.399 and in their traditional strongholds like Pepe, people people like 1856 02:37:45.520 --> 02:37:49.239 openly like celebrated and rep and repped that. You know, 1857 02:37:51.120 --> 02:37:55.920 like that, the New Order was something of a schismatic 1858 02:37:56.079 --> 02:38:06.760 breakoff from that from the Italian Social movement. Like I said, 1859 02:38:06.799 --> 02:38:08.600 what I like in it too, what I like in 1860 02:38:08.639 --> 02:38:11.319 it too. It's an imperfect example, but you know, like 1861 02:38:11.360 --> 02:38:15.239 that like the National Front schism that uh led like 1862 02:38:15.280 --> 02:38:18.600 you know, the Flag Group, which was you know the 1863 02:38:18.799 --> 02:38:22.239 uh different traditional kind of John Tyndall National Front, And 1864 02:38:22.239 --> 02:38:24.559 there's nothing wrong with that. I think National Front actually 1865 02:38:26.000 --> 02:38:33.760 did some really great things, especially for especially for uh, 1866 02:38:34.239 --> 02:38:37.719 you know, the downwardly mobile kind of like white working 1867 02:38:37.760 --> 02:38:42.879 class whose communities really were devastated by you know, the 1868 02:38:43.000 --> 02:38:51.360 UK is sort of Swiss dal Merstic globalism. But you 1869 02:38:51.399 --> 02:38:56.920 know the uh, and like I said, the Italian social 1870 02:38:56.959 --> 02:39:00.000 movement itself is every evil and like sense of build 1871 02:39:02.600 --> 02:39:04.639 the new order was very much more on like a 1872 02:39:04.719 --> 02:39:10.680 national socialist tip if that uh, I don't know if 1873 02:39:10.680 --> 02:39:12.719 that makes any different seqal or not. But again, like 1874 02:39:12.760 --> 02:39:21.760 I don't, this whole narrative doesn't really add up. But 1875 02:39:22.959 --> 02:39:27.799 you know the uh, it's also too like I don't, 1876 02:39:28.719 --> 02:39:30.879 I mean happened the regene is basically speaking out of 1877 02:39:30.920 --> 02:39:32.920 like both sides of its mouth. It's like, okay, like 1878 02:39:33.879 --> 02:39:37.719 these state behind organizations, I'm not going as far as 1879 02:39:37.719 --> 02:39:40.120 to say that like well, you know, like NATO created them, 1880 02:39:40.200 --> 02:39:43.000 Like you can't. You can't just like create al Qaeda 1881 02:39:43.120 --> 02:39:45.239 or whatever like idiots like Michael Morrissey. You can just 1882 02:39:45.280 --> 02:39:51.120 like create some radical like neo fascist cadre as a 1883 02:39:51.120 --> 02:39:54.280 state on one element. Like it's how life works, you know. 1884 02:39:54.680 --> 02:39:58.840 The these tendencies developed very organically, They solidify in a 1885 02:39:58.959 --> 02:40:03.159 harden and become in some people's cases like extreme owing 1886 02:40:03.200 --> 02:40:06.680 to like you know, personal influences in their orbit who 1887 02:40:09.760 --> 02:40:12.879 kind of feed on these people's like youth of energy 1888 02:40:13.600 --> 02:40:18.120 that tends to outshine their their capacity for self reflection. 1889 02:40:20.000 --> 02:40:24.000 But it's uh, you know. But at the same time, 1890 02:40:26.600 --> 02:40:29.520 at the same time, the fact that these guys were 1891 02:40:31.159 --> 02:40:35.040 for decades by the time this stuff was happening, they 1892 02:40:35.040 --> 02:40:38.159 were not just fully assimilated into kind of like the 1893 02:40:38.280 --> 02:40:42.719 NATO command and control structure, but they were considered to 1894 02:40:42.719 --> 02:40:45.360 be like an essential part of it. So it's like, 1895 02:40:45.719 --> 02:40:48.280 but now you can't control your people anymore, and they're 1896 02:40:48.319 --> 02:40:51.680 like blowing up cops. They're like, you know, they're they're 1897 02:40:51.719 --> 02:40:54.840 opening fire, they're ripping through fill auto like it at 1898 02:40:54.959 --> 02:40:58.000 train stations and killing old ladies and everybody else who 1899 02:40:58.000 --> 02:41:02.319 happens to be down range their fire like that. That 1900 02:41:02.399 --> 02:41:09.319 doesn't really make sense, man, Okay, you know, it just doesn't. 1901 02:41:09.520 --> 02:41:14.559 And not everything is uh not not not everything's a 1902 02:41:14.600 --> 02:41:20.399 science experiment, and you know, not everything's uh not not 1903 02:41:20.440 --> 02:41:23.760 everything lends itself the cutable inputs where you can you know, 1904 02:41:23.959 --> 02:41:28.399 derive like a concrete answer on the human condition and 1905 02:41:29.280 --> 02:41:34.959 you know, war and peace and stuff like that. I uh, 1906 02:41:36.360 --> 02:41:40.319 some I think that that's there's a lot of uh, 1907 02:41:41.040 --> 02:41:42.719 even to this day, there's like a lot of smoke 1908 02:41:42.799 --> 02:41:45.719 around these things, like for really for no reason, you 1909 02:41:45.760 --> 02:41:47.000 know what I mean. Like the men who were really 1910 02:41:47.040 --> 02:41:50.840 instrumental in these activities are long dead. You know. It's 1911 02:41:50.840 --> 02:41:53.600 like like you could say, well, this might like embarrass 1912 02:41:53.639 --> 02:41:55.479 the government. It's like, okay, if peop want to take 1913 02:41:55.479 --> 02:41:58.239 the people want to take government seriously anymore. Even if 1914 02:41:58.239 --> 02:42:02.799 they did, it's like okay, I mean there is there's uh, 1915 02:42:04.040 --> 02:42:06.319 there's a laundry list of like AAST nine A grievances 1916 02:42:06.360 --> 02:42:09.120 like people hang on you know, like the government. You know, 1917 02:42:09.159 --> 02:42:11.920 it's like, what's what's one more? You know, I don't 1918 02:42:12.440 --> 02:42:15.520 I don't really understand the discussion. I mean I understand it intellectually. 1919 02:42:15.479 --> 02:42:18.360 You know. What I mean is I continue to kind 1920 02:42:18.360 --> 02:42:26.040 of stupefy me that people don't see uh like see 1921 02:42:26.040 --> 02:42:32.879 through how like fucking uh transparent? The this is Oh wow, 1922 02:42:32.879 --> 02:42:35.840 we've been going for out an hour, haven't we. Yeah, 1923 02:42:35.959 --> 02:42:37.879 let's get into the years of LED next MANX. If 1924 02:42:37.879 --> 02:42:39.719 I if I start that now, we're gonna be here 1925 02:42:39.719 --> 02:42:40.360 like another hour. 1926 02:42:41.399 --> 02:42:42.280 Yeah, no problem. 1927 02:42:43.360 --> 02:42:44.879 I don't want to fuck with the program. 1928 02:42:45.280 --> 02:42:47.440 Sounds good to me. 1929 02:42:47.760 --> 02:42:49.959 Someone I want to crash thom because I got frankly, 1930 02:42:50.000 --> 02:42:51.200 I got a big day tomorrow. 1931 02:42:52.120 --> 02:42:55.280 Oh yeah you do, but uh do plugs real. 1932 02:42:55.239 --> 02:42:58.559 Quick yes, sir, you can always find them. You can 1933 02:42:58.559 --> 02:43:01.879 always find me on my web site. It's Thomas seven 1934 02:43:01.959 --> 02:43:06.319 seven seven dot com number seven h M A S 1935 02:43:06.319 --> 02:43:11.040 seven seven seven dot com. I'm on Twitter. I got 1936 02:43:11.040 --> 02:43:14.879 a pretty active I got a pretty active timeline. It's 1937 02:43:15.120 --> 02:43:20.040 real capital R E A L Underscore number seven h 1938 02:43:20.159 --> 02:43:26.639 M A S seven seven seven. I'm on t ram. 1939 02:43:26.879 --> 02:43:31.159 I'm on Instagram. I uh my substack is the best 1940 02:43:31.159 --> 02:43:33.559 place hitting me up. I got I got a lot 1941 02:43:33.559 --> 02:43:36.280 of video. This My podcast is a lot of just 1942 02:43:36.360 --> 02:43:38.520 kind of like random audio and me talking to people. 1943 02:43:38.520 --> 02:43:41.520 We got a very active chat that's been hopping a 1944 02:43:41.559 --> 02:43:46.399 lot lately. That's real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack 1945 02:43:46.479 --> 02:43:49.440 dot com. If EP could include like some of my 1946 02:43:50.360 --> 02:43:53.639 plugs in the video description, that would that would be great. Man. 1947 02:43:53.920 --> 02:43:55.799 You'd have my gratitude of course. Yeah. 1948 02:43:55.920 --> 02:44:00.600 I have your and I have your the uh the 1949 02:44:00.600 --> 02:44:02.719 the new merch you have and everything included there. 1950 02:44:03.079 --> 02:44:05.680 No, that's awesome. Yeah, thanks so much. Yeah, I am 1951 02:44:05.760 --> 02:44:09.760 very blessed that our our buddy Harrik Kreeg. I have 1952 02:44:09.840 --> 02:44:11.520 no idea how to mock that stuff up, man, and 1953 02:44:11.559 --> 02:44:13.000 he's got real ability, you know. 1954 02:44:14.200 --> 02:44:17.239 I'm very It looks good it looks really good. 1955 02:44:17.719 --> 02:44:22.879 Yeah, look really good. Looks yeah yeah, no, it's people 1956 02:44:22.959 --> 02:44:24.959 really like it, and it makes me happy, man, that 1957 02:44:25.159 --> 02:44:27.280 we can deliver stuff that people like you can actually 1958 02:44:27.280 --> 02:44:28.879 want to like wear on their body, you know. 1959 02:44:30.719 --> 02:44:33.920 And you actually got retweeted by Candae Owens yesterday. 1960 02:44:34.200 --> 02:44:36.040 Yeah, I know. That's why it's been like a deluge 1961 02:44:36.120 --> 02:44:42.559 of It's weird, man, It's I it's weird being like 1962 02:44:42.760 --> 02:44:46.040 Internet famous in some small way. Like I mean, okay, 1963 02:44:46.079 --> 02:44:48.200 I'm fine with it. I don't know, think about Cannas Owens. 1964 02:44:48.239 --> 02:44:50.479 I don't really mess with their content or anything whatever. 1965 02:44:50.520 --> 02:44:53.840 I mean, she wants to retweet me, that's fine, but 1966 02:44:54.120 --> 02:44:55.520 uh yeah, it's kind of nutty. 1967 02:44:56.399 --> 02:44:58.120 All right, Thomas, thank you very much. 1968 02:44:58.479 --> 02:44:59.239 Yeah, thank you, Bud. 1969 02:45:02.360 --> 02:45:05.159 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekaniana Show. 1970 02:45:05.680 --> 02:45:09.200 Thomas is back, and I think this is the I'm 1971 02:45:09.239 --> 02:45:12.840 going to conclude Gladio today, right, it's long time coming. 1972 02:45:13.520 --> 02:45:14.040 You're muted. 1973 02:45:14.319 --> 02:45:17.840 Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just call up my outline he 1974 02:45:17.879 --> 02:45:23.479 real quick, No problem, Yeah no, I think, oh yeah, 1975 02:45:23.520 --> 02:45:27.319 here we go. I already got it up. Yeah. Like 1976 02:45:27.399 --> 02:45:33.239 I said, man, just to advise the viewers and subs, 1977 02:45:33.280 --> 02:45:36.360 like I don't. I don't feel great, so like forgive 1978 02:45:36.360 --> 02:45:38.559 me if I repeat myself or like lose my place. 1979 02:45:38.600 --> 02:45:44.280 But I think we're I think we're good. So I 1980 02:45:44.280 --> 02:45:45.840 think I want to get into today, and like I 1981 02:45:45.879 --> 02:45:53.959 will as we get into the topic. Gladio created an 1982 02:45:54.000 --> 02:45:57.600 interesting ideological culture that is relevant to like what we 1983 02:45:57.719 --> 02:46:01.120 do today. It's not it's not just a strange footnote 1984 02:46:01.159 --> 02:46:04.440 of history. It's not just something that gives rise to 1985 02:46:04.760 --> 02:46:08.680 conspiratorial narratives. It's not just you know, this kind of 1986 02:46:08.760 --> 02:46:15.280 artifact of Cold War grand strategy and military planning and 1987 02:46:15.280 --> 02:46:19.000 and you know, related specifically to the nuances of political 1988 02:46:19.040 --> 02:46:23.319 warfare and and all of that. You know, And like 1989 02:46:23.360 --> 02:46:24.920 I said, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, 1990 02:46:25.000 --> 02:46:29.120 but you know, ground zero for gladi was really Italy, okay, 1991 02:46:29.120 --> 02:46:34.159 and Italy. Italy absolutely lost the war, like like all 1992 02:46:34.159 --> 02:46:37.120 of Europe. Did you know the Vatican was hit incredibly hard, 1993 02:46:37.440 --> 02:46:40.639 like figuratively and literally, you know, like Vatican two was 1994 02:46:40.719 --> 02:46:49.879 basically like like the the the Catholic leadership hierarchy reuh 1995 02:46:50.120 --> 02:46:53.360 reinventing itself to to be agreeable to you know, to 1996 02:46:53.440 --> 02:46:55.879 American hegemy and like and like that. In the Nurmer 1997 02:46:55.959 --> 02:47:01.399 World War, okay, and the rest of Italy. Italy was 1998 02:47:01.399 --> 02:47:03.319 was a key. I mean, Italy was like the fifth 1999 02:47:03.399 --> 02:47:08.680 largest economy I think into the seventies on this planet. 2000 02:47:09.440 --> 02:47:14.479 And Italy, Italy and the Benelux countries they were they 2001 02:47:14.520 --> 02:47:17.600 were they were like NATO's literal flanks, okay. I mean 2002 02:47:17.639 --> 02:47:22.399 obviously like the the Bunis Republic, the Bunia you know, 2003 02:47:22.479 --> 02:47:25.639 the US Army, you know, espeifically, the armored KAEV and 2004 02:47:25.680 --> 02:47:31.760 field artillery, the British Army on the North German plane. 2005 02:47:32.319 --> 02:47:36.360 They they were they were the fare punk of like 2006 02:47:36.399 --> 02:47:39.879 the mainline of resistance in near German border. But the 2007 02:47:39.959 --> 02:47:43.280 Italian Army you know, in the south and the Benelux 2008 02:47:43.760 --> 02:47:47.959 uh military elements on then in the north they were 2009 02:47:48.079 --> 02:47:51.000 just as essential. So there was this weird situation with 2010 02:47:51.120 --> 02:47:55.200 the Italy because it wasn't occupied like the Bundus Republic was. 2011 02:47:55.440 --> 02:47:59.000 It was part of NATO. But there was also this 2012 02:47:59.120 --> 02:48:01.799 like overtly fan that's just culture that was still active there, 2013 02:48:02.360 --> 02:48:05.479 like they were sending people to parliament, you know, they 2014 02:48:06.079 --> 02:48:07.840 and it just kind of had to be tolerated because 2015 02:48:07.879 --> 02:48:09.799 it's like what are you gonna do? It's like they 2016 02:48:09.879 --> 02:48:11.799 had they had a pro they had a Cold War 2017 02:48:11.879 --> 02:48:15.680 your government that they had like a permanent incumbency, you know, 2018 02:48:15.760 --> 02:48:19.200 they were they they hated the Communists. They were like 2019 02:48:19.200 --> 02:48:21.319 one hundred and ten percent fying the Cold War. It 2020 02:48:21.399 --> 02:48:22.799 was kind of like something that it was kind of 2021 02:48:22.799 --> 02:48:26.959 something like Washington had to tolerate. So but of course 2022 02:48:27.000 --> 02:48:29.000 they decided to kind of like try and purpose that 2023 02:48:29.159 --> 02:48:31.639 towards Cold War ends on the political side, not just 2024 02:48:31.680 --> 02:48:34.760 the military side. And that was like the core of Gladio. 2025 02:48:35.479 --> 02:48:39.479 You know, there's there's obviously Gladio elements in in the 2026 02:48:39.479 --> 02:48:43.399 Benelux countries, like in France as well, even though France 2027 02:48:43.520 --> 02:48:46.559 wasn't you know, part of the formal NATO structure, there 2028 02:48:46.639 --> 02:48:50.719 was a there were there were Gladio elements of a 2029 02:48:50.879 --> 02:48:55.399 sort like in in the Buddhist Republic. Oh that was 2030 02:48:55.399 --> 02:48:57.479 like a tricky thing, you know, and it was it 2031 02:48:57.520 --> 02:49:00.760 was weirdly handled. But Italy, like the of these guys 2032 02:49:00.879 --> 02:49:04.000 was Italy. You know. Also you know, like the Italians, 2033 02:49:05.399 --> 02:49:09.399 the Italian Seven, they contribute like an outsized in an 2034 02:49:09.399 --> 02:49:14.719 outsized way to European cultural things. And like we've talked about, 2035 02:49:14.879 --> 02:49:18.559 you know, like I mean going back to the to 2036 02:49:18.639 --> 02:49:21.520 the inner warriors, you know, like Mussolanie's March on Rome. 2037 02:49:22.040 --> 02:49:26.319 That was a huge development, you know. Uh, it was 2038 02:49:26.319 --> 02:49:31.159 this right wing revolutionary tendency that was basically like returning 2039 02:49:31.159 --> 02:49:33.920 the serve like out of the bullster of revolution. And 2040 02:49:34.040 --> 02:49:37.840 weird when you seem to Americans like art and like 2041 02:49:38.159 --> 02:49:43.159 artistic endeavors and and aesthetical things that has this that 2042 02:49:43.200 --> 02:49:47.040 has like an outsized cachet in Europe like to this day, 2043 02:49:47.479 --> 02:49:49.639 Like you wouldn't think of America of some painter or 2044 02:49:49.639 --> 02:49:52.959 even like a novelist or a filmmaker, like you wouldn't 2045 02:49:53.000 --> 02:49:56.040 think of You wouldn't think of him like putting something 2046 02:49:56.040 --> 02:50:00.479 in the stream of cultural commerce and it like a 2047 02:50:00.520 --> 02:50:03.799 movement developing around it or coming to like symbolize some 2048 02:50:03.879 --> 02:50:06.440 kind of movement. But in Italy that's very much the case. 2049 02:50:06.559 --> 02:50:09.360 It wasn't it is, you know, and the Cold War 2050 02:50:09.520 --> 02:50:12.760 was no exception. So you had these guys in Italy 2051 02:50:13.920 --> 02:50:16.920 running around who constant kind of like the core of 2052 02:50:16.959 --> 02:50:19.840 Gladio and like some of them are very compromised. They 2053 02:50:19.840 --> 02:50:23.360 were basically like NATO agents and that's like just what 2054 02:50:23.360 --> 02:50:25.680 they were, and they didn't really give a fuck, like 2055 02:50:25.760 --> 02:50:28.639 about what your knowing ideology was beyond you know, cold 2056 02:50:28.639 --> 02:50:32.120 war imperatives. But you also had these guys who were 2057 02:50:33.079 --> 02:50:36.079 you know, who were basically like act like said Julius 2058 02:50:36.079 --> 02:50:39.399 eve Lah or whore in the early days, had you know, 2059 02:50:39.520 --> 02:50:44.280 fought in the Italian army like with the Axis, or 2060 02:50:44.520 --> 02:50:48.120 you know, they were guys who came to Gladio because 2061 02:50:48.120 --> 02:50:51.719 they were agitating against communists, you know, or they were 2062 02:50:52.000 --> 02:50:55.600 or immigrants or you know, whatever their kind of core 2063 02:50:55.799 --> 02:50:59.000 issues were, and they got swept up, you know by 2064 02:50:59.079 --> 02:51:05.159 like Italian carbonaria or or political police. And I'm like, okay, 2065 02:51:05.159 --> 02:51:06.920 look like why why do you make it so useful? 2066 02:51:06.959 --> 02:51:09.079 Like this is what you're wanting to do? You know? 2067 02:51:11.399 --> 02:51:14.680 So that that's that's kind of like the that that 2068 02:51:14.680 --> 02:51:16.520 that's kind of that was kind of like the situation 2069 02:51:16.680 --> 02:51:19.440 on the Italian street, you know, particularly in Rome, but 2070 02:51:19.520 --> 02:51:24.920 kind of like all over the country. And I can't 2071 02:51:24.920 --> 02:51:27.520 remember I got into this or not. I refreshed my recollection, 2072 02:51:27.719 --> 02:51:31.719 but I if I'm repeating myself, call me on it. 2073 02:51:31.760 --> 02:51:36.239 But what kind of brought gladi out of people's awareness? 2074 02:51:36.760 --> 02:51:40.200 I'm talking in terms of like the general public was, 2075 02:51:40.360 --> 02:51:43.920 uh was the Patiano massacre? I can't remember we got 2076 02:51:43.920 --> 02:51:47.600 into this last time or not, but basically on May thirty, 2077 02:51:47.639 --> 02:51:52.319 first seventy two, there was was characterized as a neo 2078 02:51:52.479 --> 02:52:00.360 fascist terror attack. There's an anonymous call, uh play to this 2079 02:52:00.719 --> 02:52:07.280 carbonary barracks in a suburb of uh the Sigadado, and 2080 02:52:07.360 --> 02:52:12.079 the caller said, you know, hey, check this car, Check 2081 02:52:12.120 --> 02:52:14.719 this abandoned car. You know it's it's an I ED. 2082 02:52:15.879 --> 02:52:19.360 And when they did, and it like it exploded, as 2083 02:52:19.399 --> 02:52:23.319 like they were trying to investigate it, and it killed 2084 02:52:23.319 --> 02:52:29.840 these three cops. The perpetrators are the guys who got 2085 02:52:29.840 --> 02:52:32.840 brought up, who got stuck with the charges on grounds 2086 02:52:32.840 --> 02:52:36.840 of it. They were, uh, this guy named Vincenzo and Seguera, 2087 02:52:37.520 --> 02:52:44.520 Carlo Sicatini, and this guy Ivano Bucket Chino and all 2088 02:52:44.559 --> 02:52:49.079 these guys remembers of this of this group called New Order, 2089 02:52:50.680 --> 02:52:53.360 the the the official name is the New Order of 2090 02:52:53.399 --> 02:52:57.280 Scholarship Center. It was basically like a think tank and 2091 02:52:58.479 --> 02:53:01.360 it wasn't a political party. It was kind of like Ellen. 2092 02:53:01.399 --> 02:53:05.680 The ben La was like uh Greece g R E 2093 02:53:05.799 --> 02:53:11.239 c E or Grace, you know it was. It basically 2094 02:53:11.239 --> 02:53:12.600 was what it appeared to be. It was like a 2095 02:53:12.639 --> 02:53:18.680 Research Group, you know, and when when you know what, 2096 02:53:18.840 --> 02:53:20.840 where they who was funding them and where they were 2097 02:53:20.840 --> 02:53:23.920 getting money from wasn't exactly clear, but there was a 2098 02:53:23.920 --> 02:53:26.120 lot of that. There's a lot of there's a lot 2099 02:53:26.120 --> 02:53:29.239 of like money going into it. And the Italian Social Movement, 2100 02:53:30.959 --> 02:53:35.399 which was a mainstream political party despite they can they 2101 02:53:35.440 --> 02:53:40.600 considered and consider themselves to uh to be the direct 2102 02:53:40.680 --> 02:53:44.479 descendance of the the National Fascist Party and they kind 2103 02:53:44.479 --> 02:53:48.079 of are like, it's not cap but the New Order 2104 02:53:48.159 --> 02:53:50.760 Scholarship Center they came about based on like a schiz 2105 02:53:50.840 --> 02:53:56.959 on in the Italian Social Movement, which is interesting, like 2106 02:53:57.079 --> 02:54:00.000 as as the Italian Social Movement kind of approached mainstream 2107 02:54:00.079 --> 02:54:03.040 respectability and like the Eisenhower era, which happened to like 2108 02:54:03.040 --> 02:54:05.440 a lot of like right wing parties in Europe and 2109 02:54:05.559 --> 02:54:07.120 during that era too, I mean that was one like 2110 02:54:07.120 --> 02:54:10.399 Francis Yacki was like writing speeches for Joseph McCarthy, Like 2111 02:54:10.520 --> 02:54:14.120 very unusual stuff was going on due to you know 2112 02:54:14.159 --> 02:54:16.760 what amounts so like an enduring emergency. You know, this 2113 02:54:16.879 --> 02:54:19.879 is the era like the Berlin crises and things. You know, 2114 02:54:19.879 --> 02:54:22.120 people are convinced that coldor is gonna be him hot 2115 02:54:22.360 --> 02:54:25.559 become hot This was also in a bunch of guys 2116 02:54:25.600 --> 02:54:28.399 with real trigger time, you know, like basically the entire 2117 02:54:28.479 --> 02:54:31.600 first SS, like leap stand Art, they were rotting in 2118 02:54:31.639 --> 02:54:35.840 prison sept Dietrich had a life sentence, Yak and Piper 2119 02:54:35.920 --> 02:54:38.559 at the death kind of lead. A bunch of these 2120 02:54:38.600 --> 02:54:41.840 guys got released during this era, like not because NATO 2121 02:54:41.920 --> 02:54:45.719 wanted to be nice and not not because Washington decided 2122 02:54:45.760 --> 02:54:49.280 they wanted to roll back the present they've established at Nurnberg. 2123 02:54:49.360 --> 02:54:52.000 But they're like, you know, we're we're we're almost certainly 2124 02:54:52.000 --> 02:54:54.680 going to fight World War three imminently, and we need 2125 02:54:55.559 --> 02:54:57.360 we you know, we need officers and n c os 2126 02:54:57.360 --> 02:54:59.120 that we actually fought the Ivans and we can't be 2127 02:54:59.159 --> 02:55:01.319 going around to arresting people for being right wing and 2128 02:55:01.360 --> 02:55:07.360 that's not gonna work. So kind of the mainstream of 2129 02:55:07.360 --> 02:55:12.520 the Italian social movement are Turo Michellini, who was like 2130 02:55:12.520 --> 02:55:16.600 their Hancho, Like he was basically a moderate for the time. 2131 02:55:16.680 --> 02:55:20.200 He was like a right wing moderate. He uh, he 2132 02:55:20.280 --> 02:55:23.959 wanted to click up with the Christian Democrats, with the monarchists, 2133 02:55:24.200 --> 02:55:26.319 you know, basically he wanted to join kind of like 2134 02:55:26.360 --> 02:55:32.479 the mainstream coalition of like center right parties, and these 2135 02:55:32.520 --> 02:55:37.719 guys uh, like Buggaccino and like Vinci Gatta and like Sicutini, 2136 02:55:38.559 --> 02:55:41.760 they were like, uh, like that's not happening, like they're forebears. 2137 02:55:41.799 --> 02:55:43.440 I don't think they were involved at that time, but 2138 02:55:44.319 --> 02:55:47.639 you know, these there was these schismatic guys you know 2139 02:55:47.719 --> 02:55:52.239 who were who were uh, who are very much like 2140 02:55:52.280 --> 02:55:55.719 Evold and Ancolytes, and they're like that's bullshit, like you're 2141 02:55:55.719 --> 02:55:58.440 not You're not gonna turn us into some like some 2142 02:55:58.600 --> 02:56:02.600 like regime approved like like part of the parliamentary apparatus. 2143 02:56:03.280 --> 02:56:06.440 You know. So these guys found a new order, okay, 2144 02:56:08.879 --> 02:56:12.920 and there was a uh and this guy this is 2145 02:56:13.000 --> 02:56:14.959 kind of formalize the nineteen fifty six there was this 2146 02:56:15.000 --> 02:56:17.680 big meeting in Milan that was the Italian social mooge 2147 02:56:17.719 --> 02:56:21.639 in Congress and this guy Pino Rowdy, who was the 2148 02:56:21.959 --> 02:56:24.079 he was he was like kind of the representative what 2149 02:56:24.159 --> 02:56:27.920 became like new order. He basically stood up and said, 2150 02:56:27.959 --> 02:56:30.760 like you know that you're you're disgracing the honor like 2151 02:56:30.799 --> 02:56:33.600 the man who died like fighting the Americans and the communists. 2152 02:56:33.760 --> 02:56:35.719 You know, how dare you? You know you're trying to 2153 02:56:35.799 --> 02:56:38.840 hijack us? You know this this is this is Jewish, 2154 02:56:39.079 --> 02:56:42.840 you know, fuck you basically, So like that was that 2155 02:56:43.680 --> 02:56:45.360 So these New Order guys were kind of like and 2156 02:56:45.360 --> 02:56:48.000 everybody shit list anyway, Like I'm not saying they didn't 2157 02:56:48.000 --> 02:56:50.600 plant as Bob. Maybe they did or maybe they didn't, 2158 02:56:52.360 --> 02:56:55.399 but it served multiple purposes to claim these guys did it, 2159 02:56:55.440 --> 02:56:59.319 even if they did not. And I love Italians and Italy. 2160 02:56:59.520 --> 02:57:01.399 I'm not saying bad things about them as a people, 2161 02:57:01.520 --> 02:57:05.719 but Italian justice is not exactly rigorous or going to 2162 02:57:05.760 --> 02:57:08.600 do process, you know, especially during that era. 2163 02:57:09.040 --> 02:57:11.159 If you don't like the Italian government, wait five years, 2164 02:57:11.200 --> 02:57:12.639 we'll get a new one. 2165 02:57:13.360 --> 02:57:17.479 Yeah that too, But that's that's kind of the context 2166 02:57:17.760 --> 02:57:22.120 and other other right wing movements in Europe, and this 2167 02:57:22.319 --> 02:57:26.799 is a very different circumstance. It wasn't like now there, 2168 02:57:27.479 --> 02:57:30.239 you know, like I'm always talking about these these literally 2169 02:57:30.280 --> 02:57:33.680 mentally retarded people who like show for Zelensky and stuff 2170 02:57:33.680 --> 02:57:35.760 because they're like too stupid to be alive. But some 2171 02:57:35.840 --> 02:57:38.639 of the are they're like they're like brain eating amba 2172 02:57:38.799 --> 02:57:45.600 or something. But but in those you know like that nowadays, 2173 02:57:45.639 --> 02:57:48.959 there there's there's literally like the regime, there's globalism, and 2174 02:57:49.000 --> 02:57:52.120 then there's people resisting it, you know, whether there's Salathis 2175 02:57:52.120 --> 02:57:55.319 who are not good guys, or our friends, whether they're in Iran, 2176 02:57:55.360 --> 02:57:58.920 whether they're in Russia who are our friends, whether they're 2177 02:57:58.959 --> 02:58:02.280 you know. But I mean in the Cold War there 2178 02:58:02.319 --> 02:58:06.399 was all these bizarre intrigues and everything was characterized by 2179 02:58:06.479 --> 02:58:12.239 Cold War dynamics and phenomenon. So like even if you 2180 02:58:12.280 --> 02:58:15.280 didn't want to take a side, you had to insinuate 2181 02:58:15.719 --> 02:58:20.360 sinsinuate yourself somehow into that paradigm, like otherwise you were 2182 02:58:20.399 --> 02:58:23.559 just pissing into the wind, you know. So and plus two, 2183 02:58:23.600 --> 02:58:26.239 you could play people off against each other, you know, 2184 02:58:26.360 --> 02:58:31.319 like if you know in the fifties and sixties and 2185 02:58:31.319 --> 02:58:33.719 then post it tot you know, in the nineteen eighties. 2186 02:58:34.479 --> 02:58:36.959 I mean basically, if you were approached, if you were 2187 02:58:37.000 --> 02:58:39.479 if you were a partisan, whether you're in Italy or 2188 02:58:39.520 --> 02:58:43.719 the or the Benelux countries or the UK, and you've 2189 02:58:43.719 --> 02:58:46.879 got actual bodies on in the street, you could approach 2190 02:58:46.959 --> 02:58:49.840 by some intelligence guy or some NATO type. Yeah, I 2191 02:58:49.879 --> 02:58:51.920 mean you can basically take turns to him. You know, 2192 02:58:52.000 --> 02:58:54.440 you want to start behaving myself, You want me to 2193 02:58:54.440 --> 02:58:57.239 commit to doing something when you need to fight the communists, 2194 02:58:57.399 --> 02:58:59.239 you would have given me a lot of money or 2195 02:58:59.280 --> 02:59:01.399 a lot of small and ammo or like a lot 2196 02:59:01.440 --> 02:59:04.479 of drugs I can sell or something, you know. And 2197 02:59:04.520 --> 02:59:07.799 there was like limits to this obviously, but you know, 2198 02:59:07.840 --> 02:59:13.559 it was a rarefied circumstance, you know, a new order. Also, 2199 02:59:14.360 --> 02:59:17.280 there's stuff was disseminated throughout Europe and in those good days, 2200 02:59:17.920 --> 02:59:22.000 you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, you know, print media 2201 02:59:22.120 --> 02:59:24.000 was the only thing, was the only game in town, 2202 02:59:24.079 --> 02:59:27.280 you know, so and what you could find, especially especially 2203 02:59:27.360 --> 02:59:31.479 based on the censorship censorship regime, not just in the 2204 02:59:31.479 --> 02:59:34.920 Buddhist Republic, but in the UK and other places, you know, 2205 02:59:34.959 --> 02:59:36.719 you had to take like you had to get what 2206 02:59:36.760 --> 02:59:39.479 could be smuggled in, you know, and sometimes it be 2207 02:59:39.479 --> 02:59:41.719 in English, sometimes it wouldn't. Sometimes it'd be like an 2208 02:59:41.799 --> 02:59:46.799 English translation that was imprecise. But a whole lot of 2209 02:59:46.799 --> 02:59:51.879 this material relevant to the right, relative to the old 2210 02:59:52.159 --> 02:59:57.120 resistance in Europe. What's coming out of Italy and you 2211 02:59:57.120 --> 03:00:00.440 know now orders publications they very much valorize the Third 2212 03:00:00.520 --> 03:00:05.840 Right and the Kingdom of Italy. And there were dead, 2213 03:00:06.200 --> 03:00:08.079 you know, in the independent State of Croatia, and like 2214 03:00:09.319 --> 03:00:13.639 all the excess powers they also they had links with 2215 03:00:13.760 --> 03:00:17.040 the Boor of Republican Rhodesia also, like they had strong 2216 03:00:17.120 --> 03:00:21.959 support there. You know. It was very anti modernist. It 2217 03:00:22.040 --> 03:00:24.520 was very Strasser, right, you know, and despite what people 2218 03:00:24.760 --> 03:00:27.440 think Strasser had, uh, he had he had a he 2219 03:00:27.479 --> 03:00:29.799 had a very nuanced view of things. I don't agree 2220 03:00:29.840 --> 03:00:32.799 with this perspective. But it wasn't just oh he was 2221 03:00:32.879 --> 03:00:36.120 a socialist, but he also didn't like Zionism. It's there 2222 03:00:36.200 --> 03:00:38.719 was nothing like that. And he was not pro Soviet. 2223 03:00:39.760 --> 03:00:41.799 He said that, you know, Europe has to fight some 2224 03:00:41.920 --> 03:00:44.319 kind of concord with Moscow no matter what the government 2225 03:00:44.440 --> 03:00:47.760 is there, and that's the way forward. But he basically 2226 03:00:48.799 --> 03:00:52.239 the reason why the standard of the Black Front it 2227 03:00:52.360 --> 03:00:54.200 was the hammer and sword. It wasn't just because it 2228 03:00:54.239 --> 03:00:58.319 looks cool. You know, he's the Strassers, the Strasser. His 2229 03:00:58.399 --> 03:01:01.959 whole point was we've got to return to like medieval origins. 2230 03:01:02.079 --> 03:01:04.719 That's you know, not not in some ridiculous way or 2231 03:01:05.360 --> 03:01:08.120 or not in some luodite way. But he's like, you know, this, 2232 03:01:08.280 --> 03:01:13.840 this devolved, localized governmental structure is what's natural to Europe. 2233 03:01:14.200 --> 03:01:16.440 You know, yes, we need a national government, but it's 2234 03:01:16.479 --> 03:01:19.079 got to be totally federated and not just the name only, 2235 03:01:19.719 --> 03:01:22.559 you know, like they like down to down like the 2236 03:01:22.639 --> 03:01:27.399 township level, like they basically wanted like local sovereignty and 2237 03:01:28.200 --> 03:01:31.760 for matters that you know impact you know, like the 2238 03:01:31.959 --> 03:01:35.120 folk community or like war in peace question the base 2239 03:01:35.200 --> 03:01:39.520 of security, like that's that's what the national community ossifies 2240 03:01:39.799 --> 03:01:43.639 as one. But otherwise, you know, it's it exists in 2241 03:01:43.680 --> 03:01:46.479 this totally like organic kind of like spontaneous and the 2242 03:01:46.639 --> 03:01:50.399 wealth capacity. And that's basically what the third position was 2243 03:01:50.520 --> 03:01:53.760 up on during the entire Cold War. And the third 2244 03:01:53.840 --> 03:01:56.399 position as we think of it, it does not exist anymore. 2245 03:01:57.399 --> 03:02:01.639 You know. John Bowden made that point. So if you're like, oh, 2246 03:02:01.680 --> 03:02:04.040 I'm a third positionist, well that doesn't make any sense 2247 03:02:04.079 --> 03:02:08.280 in America anyway, because there is no American third position. Okay, 2248 03:02:08.920 --> 03:02:11.239 there was like a there there was there was a 2249 03:02:12.319 --> 03:02:14.239 there was a taffy and right wing position that was 2250 03:02:14.280 --> 03:02:17.319 America first, we shouldn't be fighting the Cold War. But 2251 03:02:17.399 --> 03:02:20.680 that's something totally different. And in the twenty oars centi's 2252 03:02:20.719 --> 03:02:23.680 just not a third a third position anywhere, because there's 2253 03:02:23.760 --> 03:02:28.920 not there's not the binary paradigm. There's globalism and everybody 2254 03:02:28.959 --> 03:02:33.120 opposing it. That's it. And those people opposing it. They 2255 03:02:33.159 --> 03:02:36.399 have different motives for opposing it, some of which are 2256 03:02:38.479 --> 03:02:42.399 some of which you know, are like rhyme with one another, 2257 03:02:42.760 --> 03:02:45.639 some which don't at all. But there's but but there's 2258 03:02:45.680 --> 03:02:48.799 not two positions. There's one position and there's the resistance. 2259 03:02:49.600 --> 03:02:53.840 This is actually important. It's not just something that academic 2260 03:02:53.959 --> 03:02:57.799 types and people like me are into or relate to, 2261 03:02:58.959 --> 03:03:00.879 you know, contemplate, pontificate that. 2262 03:03:03.360 --> 03:03:09.159 Well people, but people may. I think sometimes people think 2263 03:03:09.200 --> 03:03:11.559 that you say stuff like that just to just to 2264 03:03:11.680 --> 03:03:15.600 upset them. Because it upsets them. They you know, they 2265 03:03:15.680 --> 03:03:20.639 think they're a third positionist and they underah in what way. 2266 03:03:20.760 --> 03:03:23.200 You know, It's like it's like talking about being right 2267 03:03:23.280 --> 03:03:25.360 wing or left wing and you're talking about the early 2268 03:03:26.000 --> 03:03:27.040 you know, twentieth century. 2269 03:03:27.159 --> 03:03:27.680 In Europe. 2270 03:03:27.760 --> 03:03:29.680 It's not the same thing as in Europe as it 2271 03:03:29.760 --> 03:03:32.399 is in the United States. There's a lot more nuance there. 2272 03:03:33.639 --> 03:03:38.479 Well, there's also the same guys who think that they 2273 03:03:38.879 --> 03:03:41.879 like they think that they think that they're right wing 2274 03:03:42.719 --> 03:03:47.120 if they agree on foreign policy with Chuck Schumer, Ben Nettinya, 2275 03:03:47.239 --> 03:03:51.319 who Joe Biden in Nancy Pelosi. It's like, I don't 2276 03:03:51.360 --> 03:03:54.520 care if you don't like the Russians. If you're ethnically 2277 03:03:54.600 --> 03:03:57.879 cleansing Slavic people on orders of a zion Is for 2278 03:03:57.959 --> 03:04:03.280 the purpose of dismantling Ukraine and Russia as discreete ethnocultural entities, 2279 03:04:03.559 --> 03:04:06.159 you're not right wing. You're some kind of fuck head 2280 03:04:06.159 --> 03:04:09.399 who's killing people for the globalist regime. Like the fact 2281 03:04:09.440 --> 03:04:11.879 you wear like a little swastigardless of a black metal 2282 03:04:12.479 --> 03:04:15.159 or because you're like some like Brony Satanists, doesn't make 2283 03:04:15.200 --> 03:04:17.120 you right wing. It just makes you a fucking idiot. 2284 03:04:17.840 --> 03:04:19.760 You know. Like if I if I like rob a 2285 03:04:19.840 --> 03:04:23.360 liquor store when I'm high on crack and say, you know, 2286 03:04:23.719 --> 03:04:26.440 God saves the King, that doesn't make me a monarchist. 2287 03:04:26.479 --> 03:04:28.600 It makes me a crackhead who robs liquor stores and 2288 03:04:28.719 --> 03:04:31.719 says weird things. You know. It's kind of the same thing. Man, 2289 03:04:32.200 --> 03:04:36.280 Like if Nambla started like wearing swasiguds nimblesics to fucking basted, 2290 03:04:36.280 --> 03:04:38.440 I'm gonna go like fucking kid because it's like beast 2291 03:04:38.920 --> 03:04:41.079 like they literally would be like that, you know. Like, 2292 03:04:41.680 --> 03:04:44.200 but that's a different I don't want to ran about 2293 03:04:44.200 --> 03:04:48.479 that and get my blood pressure up. But the uh, 2294 03:04:51.280 --> 03:04:54.479 but you know, yeah, I did. I mean, but that 2295 03:04:54.639 --> 03:04:57.079 that was basically like the situation in Italy and again 2296 03:04:57.280 --> 03:05:02.719 like uh the damastic car, these these Carbonariti like that 2297 03:05:02.879 --> 03:05:05.280 that these guys probably I don't think they wanted to 2298 03:05:05.360 --> 03:05:11.719 kill the police, but I think they definitely were like 2299 03:05:11.760 --> 03:05:16.239 guilty of the crying charge despite whatever propaganda might have 2300 03:05:16.280 --> 03:05:20.040 been milked out of it by by the Italian government. 2301 03:05:20.600 --> 03:05:23.079 Because these guys are these guys are serious, like the 2302 03:05:23.159 --> 03:05:26.200 New Order guys, they jumped the gun a little bit. 2303 03:05:26.559 --> 03:05:30.559 A lot of them didn't have practical experience as partisans 2304 03:05:30.920 --> 03:05:34.040 like the like the Growth Army fraction did you know, 2305 03:05:34.079 --> 03:05:37.559 they weren't properly trained in that stuff. But you know 2306 03:05:37.639 --> 03:05:40.360 they were serious. They were like willing to engage in 2307 03:05:40.399 --> 03:05:45.879 direct the action. But as time went on, they kind 2308 03:05:45.920 --> 03:05:52.840 of they became something of an elite uh organization. You know, 2309 03:05:52.879 --> 03:05:55.879 they very they gave, they gate kept very hard. They 2310 03:05:56.000 --> 03:06:00.760 always helped themselves out as a vanguard as tendency. You know, 2311 03:06:01.120 --> 03:06:04.879 as time went on there there kind of causeic paramilitary 2312 03:06:04.920 --> 03:06:10.200 aspect became more uh like a high speed and and incredible. 2313 03:06:11.760 --> 03:06:14.200 You know, at peak they had about ten thousand numbers 2314 03:06:14.239 --> 03:06:18.120 and these guys, Uh, this is only campaign for nuclear 2315 03:06:18.200 --> 03:06:20.840 disarmament was a big thing in Europe, which it selves 2316 03:06:20.920 --> 03:06:24.840 like a cover not just for like you know, uh 2317 03:06:25.239 --> 03:06:27.440 like like Soviet and wasn't like money was coming into 2318 03:06:27.479 --> 03:06:29.760 fund this stuff, but it's also a cover for like 2319 03:06:29.799 --> 03:06:33.799 real radicals, you know, and and and communists and anarchists 2320 03:06:33.840 --> 03:06:36.639 of varied stripes like now order they they go out 2321 03:06:36.680 --> 03:06:39.000 and like kick the shit out of these guys when 2322 03:06:39.000 --> 03:06:42.639 they'd have like protests and these like mass demonstrations, you know. 2323 03:06:42.799 --> 03:06:45.680 So that that caused the Garment in Rome to kind 2324 03:06:45.719 --> 03:06:47.360 of like raise a cyber and be like, okay, like 2325 03:06:48.319 --> 03:06:52.000 let's not just like smash these guys. And then I 2326 03:06:52.040 --> 03:06:54.719 think that had a lot to do with them kind 2327 03:06:54.719 --> 03:06:58.399 of being the Cora Gladio beyond like what I already suggested, 2328 03:06:58.639 --> 03:07:01.479 what I was just going to peculiar conditions of Italy 2329 03:07:01.600 --> 03:07:05.079 and and and nuances they're in. But it's like, Okay, 2330 03:07:05.120 --> 03:07:08.079 these guys, these guys will get dirty, Okay, you know 2331 03:07:08.200 --> 03:07:10.879 that they're not afraid to do that. And they they 2332 03:07:10.920 --> 03:07:13.719 seem to be thirsty for action, you know, so they're 2333 03:07:13.760 --> 03:07:17.799 not we we can be advised, especially if we if 2334 03:07:17.840 --> 03:07:20.200 we sent some special operations for US types to kind 2335 03:07:20.200 --> 03:07:23.120 of bring up the speed. These guys will probably be 2336 03:07:23.639 --> 03:07:26.200 like looking forward to some kind of Soviet assault where 2337 03:07:26.200 --> 03:07:29.159 they can go out and and and play cowboys and Indians. 2338 03:07:29.680 --> 03:07:34.639 It's kind of like a perfect stormist stuff. But uh, 2339 03:07:36.760 --> 03:07:43.239 later on a substantial uh the stancial percentage of these 2340 03:07:43.280 --> 03:07:51.319 guys like rejoined uh the Italian social movement, but that 2341 03:07:51.760 --> 03:07:54.000 they remained kind of like I think some of that too. 2342 03:07:54.079 --> 03:07:57.520 It was them like hemorrhaging off people who like weren't 2343 03:07:58.399 --> 03:08:02.079 really up to the task of doing extra legal stuff. 2344 03:08:02.120 --> 03:08:06.280 It's complicated, but there's a lot of historians, and not 2345 03:08:06.479 --> 03:08:11.600 just mainstream historians, but like you know, uh, like vanguardist 2346 03:08:11.639 --> 03:08:13.680 types like us, we like read this as like, oh, 2347 03:08:13.719 --> 03:08:15.799 there was a second schism. I don't think that's true. 2348 03:08:16.239 --> 03:08:19.360 But that's kind of complicated. I in the time we 2349 03:08:19.399 --> 03:08:21.760 got left, I don't want to I don't want to 2350 03:08:21.760 --> 03:08:29.559 go on that tangent deeply. But the uh and not coincidentally, 2351 03:08:29.680 --> 03:08:32.559 the New Order's motto was our honor is called loyalty. 2352 03:08:32.760 --> 03:08:38.399 I'm not gonna try and pronounce the Italian variant of that, 2353 03:08:38.680 --> 03:08:44.639 but obviously that's you know, my yeah, has Troy, my 2354 03:08:44.799 --> 03:08:47.760 loyalty is my honor which is the en SS model. 2355 03:08:49.079 --> 03:08:51.559 The symi of the organization was a double headed axe, 2356 03:08:52.079 --> 03:08:54.280 you know, like meaning like we look both right and left, 2357 03:08:54.399 --> 03:08:57.360 but you know, the ross, the folk community is the center, 2358 03:08:57.479 --> 03:09:00.680 and like we represent that as a vanguard, you know, 2359 03:09:00.760 --> 03:09:05.280 and we fight both elements from within when they threaten us, 2360 03:09:05.719 --> 03:09:08.600 but we will act as like the shpare punkd of 2361 03:09:08.760 --> 03:09:12.079 either if it advances, you know, the interests of the 2362 03:09:12.559 --> 03:09:20.840 folk community. An important side note to this is what 2363 03:09:21.040 --> 03:09:26.479 became of the British National Front, which today and I 2364 03:09:26.879 --> 03:09:29.239 can't say for sure what the state of the London 2365 03:09:29.360 --> 03:09:32.280 Street is or anything. I read the Nation and so 2366 03:09:32.440 --> 03:09:37.319 if our English and Ulster friends and Scottish friends, if 2367 03:09:37.360 --> 03:09:40.639 I'm wrong about this, please weigh in and don't be offended. 2368 03:09:40.719 --> 03:09:43.000 But I don't think I'm wrong. I think the National 2369 03:09:43.120 --> 03:09:45.399 Front the British National Fraud, not to be confused with 2370 03:09:45.479 --> 03:09:50.959 the French organization, which is a lot more mainstream and 2371 03:09:51.120 --> 03:09:56.479 regime approved. The I think the National Front these days 2372 03:09:56.559 --> 03:10:00.159 is basically a website, okay, or like a social media Uh, 2373 03:10:00.760 --> 03:10:03.159 it's got some social media presence, but like even they're 2374 03:10:03.239 --> 03:10:05.600 like nobody, not even just fold, like a couple hundred 2375 03:10:05.600 --> 03:10:07.319 people who fuck with it and don't care about it. 2376 03:10:07.840 --> 03:10:11.360 But it was a big deal in the seventies and eighties. 2377 03:10:11.760 --> 03:10:15.040 They're the fourth largest party. They're they were the largest 2378 03:10:15.040 --> 03:10:17.680 party after the lib Dems in the UK for a minute. Okay. 2379 03:10:19.079 --> 03:10:22.000 They were founded by A. K. Chesterton who had been 2380 03:10:23.319 --> 03:10:29.760 who'd been affiliated with Mosley. He came from UH. He 2381 03:10:29.840 --> 03:10:32.680 came from the League of Empire Loyalists and the first 2382 03:10:32.879 --> 03:10:40.040 British National Party and he was related to UH. He 2383 03:10:40.159 --> 03:10:42.959 was related to G. K. Schesterton. He'd been born in 2384 03:10:43.040 --> 03:10:46.399 South Africa. During the Second Bold War, his family fled 2385 03:10:46.760 --> 03:10:54.799 back to the UK. But it uh, this was uh. 2386 03:10:55.639 --> 03:10:57.959 This was during the time when Enna Powell was really 2387 03:10:58.040 --> 03:11:00.280 kind of carving out like a dissident tendance in the 2388 03:11:00.399 --> 03:11:08.239 UK too. But the National Front it really got cloud 2389 03:11:08.319 --> 03:11:11.040 when John Tindall kind of came to the helm And 2390 03:11:11.120 --> 03:11:15.959 Tindall was an interesting guy. I highly recommend his autobiography. 2391 03:11:16.000 --> 03:11:20.719 It's really it's good stuff. But you know Tindall, Uh. 2392 03:11:21.360 --> 03:11:24.360 Kindall's big thing was, you know, stop non white immigration, 2393 03:11:25.440 --> 03:11:29.040 and he campaigned on a plat from a repatriot these 2394 03:11:29.079 --> 03:11:32.079 people now, which absolutely would have been possible at that time. 2395 03:11:32.200 --> 03:11:34.680 That wasn't He wasn't just like talking shit like we're 2396 03:11:34.719 --> 03:11:36.600 gonna build a wool and it's gonna stop all these 2397 03:11:36.639 --> 03:11:38.920 Mexicans because it's a wol. It was like nothing like that. 2398 03:11:39.120 --> 03:11:41.360 It was like you could do this because the politable 2399 03:11:41.399 --> 03:11:44.000 will was there, you know, and uh, this is when 2400 03:11:44.000 --> 03:11:46.079 things are totally going to hell in Northern Ireland, and 2401 03:11:46.159 --> 03:11:48.680 Northern Ireland is relevant to this Gladio a third position 2402 03:11:48.799 --> 03:11:51.520 thing two. I'm not just on a crazy tangent, but 2403 03:11:53.680 --> 03:11:56.239 Tindall was basically like a main He was a pretty mainstream, 2404 03:11:56.319 --> 03:12:00.200 like white nationalist, empire loyalist type guy. He's like, why 2405 03:12:00.239 --> 03:12:02.680 we post the footing with the IRA, Fuck these people 2406 03:12:02.799 --> 03:12:05.239 smash them? Why are we getting flooded with these Third 2407 03:12:05.280 --> 03:12:09.719 world immigrants? Like why, you know, why? How come? You 2408 03:12:09.760 --> 03:12:11.840 know why? Why why are the Tories like talking a 2409 03:12:11.920 --> 03:12:14.959 lot of shit. But we're basically getting state socialism then, 2410 03:12:16.479 --> 03:12:18.799 and and we're not you know, we're we're not even 2411 03:12:18.799 --> 03:12:24.600 a competitive economy anymore. But something started happening within the 2412 03:12:24.680 --> 03:12:27.920 National Front and the NF two. They'd have these mass 2413 03:12:28.040 --> 03:12:34.000 rallies in London and you know, in uh, in Liverpool 2414 03:12:35.079 --> 03:12:38.559 and in Belfast, although it hit Belfast a little bit later, 2415 03:12:39.959 --> 03:12:44.239 and I'm getting ahead of myself. But the guys who 2416 03:12:44.399 --> 03:12:48.399 came to constitute the West Belfast Brigade, like C Company 2417 03:12:48.440 --> 03:12:51.559 of the West Belfast Brigade of the UDA, Johnny Adare, 2418 03:12:52.719 --> 03:12:55.319 who was who was an infamous guy and not an 2419 03:12:55.399 --> 03:12:59.399 admirable guy, very much a gangster. He was a National 2420 03:12:59.520 --> 03:13:01.520 Front still head and he was in the Rock against 2421 03:13:01.559 --> 03:13:04.280 Communism scene, and so were all his friends. And these 2422 03:13:04.319 --> 03:13:08.639 guys became C Company, okay, and like they were all 2423 03:13:08.680 --> 03:13:13.200 about the National Front. So on the one hand, like 2424 03:13:13.360 --> 03:13:19.440 Comedy eighteen and these guys other than other than the 2425 03:13:19.559 --> 03:13:25.559 mid Ulster UV which became the LVF under Billy Rice Rain. 2426 03:13:27.280 --> 03:13:29.079 You know, people say like, well it was an outlie 2427 03:13:29.200 --> 03:13:31.799 or like the far right and loyalists don't have the 2428 03:13:31.879 --> 03:13:36.040 common ground. That's not really true, okay, Like, but we'll 2429 03:13:36.040 --> 03:13:38.399 get into that in a minute. And this totally relates 2430 03:13:38.520 --> 03:13:43.079 to the third position of schismatic schismatics in Italy, which 2431 03:13:43.120 --> 03:13:46.440 in turn impacted the National Front, which in turn found 2432 03:13:46.920 --> 03:13:52.520 an audience in Ulster, specifically belf Pass. But what happened 2433 03:13:52.760 --> 03:13:58.559 in the National Front was the schism happened between what 2434 03:13:58.760 --> 03:14:02.239 was called the political soul faction and what was the 2435 03:14:02.440 --> 03:14:06.399 Flag group because the National Front zine or newsletter was 2436 03:14:06.520 --> 03:14:12.799 the Flag. Okay, But essentially Tindall leaves a National Front 2437 03:14:12.879 --> 03:14:15.520 and identity too and he forms the British National Party, 2438 03:14:15.879 --> 03:14:18.520 which in turn became the b n P of the nineties, 2439 03:14:18.879 --> 03:14:20.959 where Nick Griffin was at the helm, which is understanding 2440 03:14:20.959 --> 03:14:23.399 because Griffin was part of the political soldier faction. But 2441 03:14:27.120 --> 03:14:33.520 the uh, the National Front split during the during this 2442 03:14:33.680 --> 03:14:40.399 time appropising when Tindall left, okay, and the Official National Front, 2443 03:14:40.440 --> 03:14:44.239 which was the political soldier faction, they started they started 2444 03:14:44.280 --> 03:14:48.000 associating with this guy, Roberto Fiori. But I believe Griffin 2445 03:14:48.079 --> 03:14:51.440 actually lived with for a time, not in some weird way, 2446 03:14:51.719 --> 03:14:53.799 but like they lived into like the same rooming house 2447 03:14:53.840 --> 03:14:56.399 or a bunch of like right wing guys. It was 2448 03:14:56.440 --> 03:15:02.600 more like their h hughes basically. But the Official National 2449 03:15:02.760 --> 03:15:07.719 Front or the Political Soldier faction, they basically are like, 2450 03:15:07.840 --> 03:15:10.399 why why are we worried about preserving the monarchy? Like 2451 03:15:10.479 --> 03:15:12.639 why are we worried about trying to bring the UK 2452 03:15:13.040 --> 03:15:18.559 back to you know, as it existed between you know, 2453 03:15:18.719 --> 03:15:21.760 like the reign of you know, the minute of the 2454 03:15:21.760 --> 03:15:25.000 Prime misership A Disraeli and you know through like Getwardian 2455 03:15:25.280 --> 03:15:30.360 days to you know, basically probably like when Ramsey McDonald 2456 03:15:30.719 --> 03:15:33.159 the game PM, It's like, why is that like our model? 2457 03:15:33.920 --> 03:15:35.399 You know, He's like, we got to start looking at 2458 03:15:35.440 --> 03:15:41.879 ourselves as as uh as political soldiers. You know, Uh, 2459 03:15:42.479 --> 03:15:46.479 we got to start viewing uh, you know, America and 2460 03:15:46.639 --> 03:15:50.319 its client regime in London as our enemy just as 2461 03:15:50.360 --> 03:15:55.280 much as the communists are. They started uh making overtures 2462 03:15:55.319 --> 03:16:00.600 to cut offy because cut off he would would, uh, 2463 03:16:00.799 --> 03:16:04.680 he'd support elements that he thought would advance the goals 2464 03:16:04.760 --> 03:16:09.319 that you know. Kadafi was very much Warsaw packed adjacent, 2465 03:16:09.399 --> 03:16:13.000 like ten percent, but he was an unusual guy and 2466 03:16:13.239 --> 03:16:15.600 like my friend Big D like in you know, the 2467 03:16:15.680 --> 03:16:17.520 first time I cut con it what I mean, it 2468 03:16:17.639 --> 03:16:19.639 was no Rouken and he was talking. You know, he 2469 03:16:19.879 --> 03:16:23.200 got swept up in the indictments when when Jeff Fort 2470 03:16:23.520 --> 03:16:25.920 you know, was and the Rukens were taking money from 2471 03:16:25.959 --> 03:16:28.639 Kadafi was fourth then talk and spent on dope to 2472 03:16:28.719 --> 03:16:31.079 put on the street. And Kadafi he's like, fuck, this 2473 03:16:31.200 --> 03:16:34.399 guy put a hit on them. But you're, like Big 2474 03:16:34.479 --> 03:16:36.719 D said, He's like the a lot of the Rooken 2475 03:16:36.799 --> 03:16:39.520 leadership was all about that. But so we're like these 2476 03:16:39.559 --> 03:16:43.680 third positions guys in Europe, okay. And and of course 2477 03:16:43.799 --> 03:16:48.680 the uh like the Flag Group, you know, they they 2478 03:16:48.719 --> 03:16:51.440 were like, this is bullshit. You know, you don't you don't, 2479 03:16:52.000 --> 03:16:54.559 you don't associate with non whites. We're not radicals, you know, 2480 03:16:54.719 --> 03:17:00.360 a all of that. Okay. But as the National Front 2481 03:17:00.479 --> 03:17:07.479 was doing that, the uh you know, and and this 2482 03:17:07.600 --> 03:17:11.319 kind of stress right stuff was was being like widely 2483 03:17:11.360 --> 03:17:16.079 disseminated at least within like right wing circles, you know. 2484 03:17:16.239 --> 03:17:19.239 At this time, like in nineteen eighty six, when the 2485 03:17:19.280 --> 03:17:25.440 two wings that party formally split, it was probably about 2486 03:17:25.680 --> 03:17:29.200 they probably about like five thousand like like hardcore members 2487 03:17:29.319 --> 03:17:31.639 like paid dues and they're like like on record and 2488 03:17:31.680 --> 03:17:40.239 all of that stuff, and about uh probably about three 2489 03:17:40.319 --> 03:17:43.479 thousand of them like mhm, like stay with like the 2490 03:17:43.559 --> 03:17:47.040 mainstream National Front, but two thousand like clicked up with 2491 03:17:47.200 --> 03:17:50.559 you know, like the political soldier like official National Front 2492 03:17:54.159 --> 03:17:58.239 political Soldier wing. But they had you know in the 2493 03:17:58.399 --> 03:18:00.760 UK only here like if you got a form of play, 2494 03:18:00.760 --> 03:18:03.520 if Yourenacord is a political party, like you pay dues, 2495 03:18:03.879 --> 03:18:06.840 you know, it's like a membership organization and you've got 2496 03:18:06.920 --> 03:18:10.559 supporters who aren't at all involved in like the membership 2497 03:18:10.639 --> 03:18:14.200 side of things. So despite like what seems like paltry 2498 03:18:14.280 --> 03:18:19.520 numbers for like a protest party, that's actually pretty good 2499 03:18:19.600 --> 03:18:22.079 for the time. And like I said, these guys could, 2500 03:18:22.639 --> 03:18:24.959 these guys could get a crowd in the streets in London, 2501 03:18:25.040 --> 03:18:28.079 particularly if they were you know, if they were if 2502 03:18:28.079 --> 03:18:31.319 they were clashing you know with the campaign for nolear 2503 03:18:31.360 --> 03:18:36.879 disarment types or or or like radical left types, because 2504 03:18:36.920 --> 03:18:39.760 like people didn't like those types, you know, they just didn't, 2505 03:18:39.959 --> 03:18:42.200 you know, I mean, at end of this day, I 2506 03:18:42.239 --> 03:18:43.959 think if the man in this I realized London has 2507 03:18:44.079 --> 03:18:47.760 changed dramatically since then and since I was there in 2508 03:18:47.799 --> 03:18:52.159 the late nineties. But I I'm sure it's kind of 2509 03:18:52.200 --> 03:18:56.120 like Shytown. There's there is kind of like but the 2510 03:18:56.200 --> 03:18:59.040 silent majority type element that gets mad when they see 2511 03:18:59.079 --> 03:19:01.920 that stuff. And a lot of these non white people, 2512 03:19:02.159 --> 03:19:04.040 whether they should be there or not a different question, 2513 03:19:04.200 --> 03:19:05.799 but a lot of them don't like that shit either. 2514 03:19:07.040 --> 03:19:11.120 But you know, so plus do like the National Front, 2515 03:19:11.200 --> 03:19:17.639 even it's early iteration. You know, under Tyndall, it did stand, 2516 03:19:17.840 --> 03:19:20.799 it did contest, it did contest elections, but it viewed 2517 03:19:20.799 --> 03:19:30.200 itself as a vanguardist tendency when it did, uh that 2518 03:19:30.440 --> 03:19:35.159 change really after Tyndall left, they decided they wanted to 2519 03:19:35.239 --> 03:19:40.239 become almost like a mainstream party in some ways, you know, 2520 03:19:40.319 --> 03:19:42.719 and like a mass membership organization. This is one of 2521 03:19:42.760 --> 03:19:44.600 the reasons for the skins of my belief because for 2522 03:19:44.719 --> 03:19:47.399 something like for an organization like that, like that's fatal 2523 03:19:47.479 --> 03:19:50.280 to it. You know, it's not. It's not just that 2524 03:19:50.360 --> 03:19:54.680 you've got to adopt a vanguardist posture if you're in 2525 03:19:54.680 --> 03:19:57.719 the United States or the UK or or the EU 2526 03:19:58.719 --> 03:20:01.840 these days, like an those days, even when there's kind 2527 03:20:01.840 --> 03:20:09.120 of more room to participate in formal processes, you you 2528 03:20:09.239 --> 03:20:12.319 couldn't you couldn't just try and like reinvent yourself as 2529 03:20:12.399 --> 03:20:14.639 kind of like the dissident Tories or something like or it. 2530 03:20:15.520 --> 03:20:18.319 It wouldn't like just just by like sheer value and 2531 03:20:18.399 --> 03:20:21.879 you would be diluted and the into becoming an effectual 2532 03:20:22.000 --> 03:20:25.040 like regardless of the fact that you know, there's not 2533 03:20:25.239 --> 03:20:28.159 there's not real social capital between an organization putting people 2534 03:20:28.159 --> 03:20:30.440 in an organization like a million members or something. But 2535 03:20:31.959 --> 03:20:34.600 any event, and now that was the big thing the 2536 03:20:34.639 --> 03:20:38.799 political Soldier faction. They refuse to stay in for protect 2537 03:20:38.879 --> 03:20:48.399 contest elections, but bringing it to bringing it to bring 2538 03:20:48.479 --> 03:20:50.959 it to the to the Northern Ireland situation and kind 2539 03:20:51.000 --> 03:20:54.440 of how Gladiol which in turn kind of gave rise 2540 03:20:54.520 --> 03:20:56.760 the third position, which in turn impact like an active 2541 03:20:56.840 --> 03:21:00.760 conflict on the ground and weighs unforeseen. This guy named 2542 03:21:00.760 --> 03:21:06.200 Andy Tierry, he was born in Belfast. You know, it's 2543 03:21:06.239 --> 03:21:08.520 a poor family. He sounded like an x x ex 2544 03:21:08.600 --> 03:21:14.360 British Army soldier. He grew up in the loyalist heartland 2545 03:21:14.440 --> 03:21:21.200 on Shango Road, and his family and many others he 2546 03:21:21.239 --> 03:21:26.959 had like uh moved to bally Murphy and then New Barnsley, 2547 03:21:27.440 --> 03:21:29.559 like when his dad needed work, like you know, cause 2548 03:21:29.559 --> 03:21:31.799 among other things. In the late sixties it was like 2549 03:21:31.840 --> 03:21:35.120 a huge recession you know across the UK, but I 2550 03:21:35.159 --> 03:21:39.520 mean Belfast was especially hit hard. And when the troubles 2551 03:21:39.559 --> 03:21:43.079 kept off in sixty nine, the family, uh, they got 2552 03:21:43.159 --> 03:21:46.600 ethnically cleansed, like they're they got attacked. So they go 2553 03:21:46.760 --> 03:21:50.040 back to the shay I go Try is an ancient 2554 03:21:50.159 --> 03:21:53.799 Scottish name, So I'm sure like the Tierries are on 2555 03:21:53.879 --> 03:21:57.319 the shit list of the of the provos, anybody else, 2556 03:21:57.440 --> 03:22:02.639 Like when it first jumped off yet is his roots 2557 03:22:02.680 --> 03:22:05.239 could be traced to the early days of the ulcer plantations. 2558 03:22:05.280 --> 03:22:08.200 I mean this, this guy had like loyalism in his DNA. Okay, 2559 03:22:10.079 --> 03:22:11.920 I'm not saying that's good or bad. That's a fact. 2560 03:22:12.319 --> 03:22:17.159 It's just a fact. But so Tierry clicks up with 2561 03:22:17.319 --> 03:22:21.360 the He first clicks up with the UVF. They liked 2562 03:22:21.440 --> 03:22:24.280 him because he was serious and tough, and he was 2563 03:22:24.360 --> 03:22:26.879 literally from the Shanghio Road and his family had been 2564 03:22:27.040 --> 03:22:32.000 attacked by out of the provos or adjacent vigilantes. But 2565 03:22:32.159 --> 03:22:34.200 Tierry looks at the UVF and he's like, you know, 2566 03:22:34.280 --> 03:22:37.520 these guys are like the UVF soul notion first of all, 2567 03:22:37.680 --> 03:22:41.319 I mean it, you know, it was this the second 2568 03:22:41.399 --> 03:22:44.559 iteration which came about in sixty five and in which 2569 03:22:44.639 --> 03:22:49.159 Tierry joined. They were very, very selective. They looked at themselves, 2570 03:22:49.239 --> 03:22:52.040 this direct action element, who's job it was to kill 2571 03:22:52.159 --> 03:22:54.760 the IRA. Like, yes, they dropped a lot of civilian 2572 03:22:54.840 --> 03:22:58.399 bodies too, just to terrorize people. But their idea was 2573 03:22:58.479 --> 03:23:00.959 were not a mass members sportman is, We're not a 2574 03:23:01.079 --> 03:23:06.040 vigilante grouping. You know, we're an elite element. We're a 2575 03:23:06.159 --> 03:23:10.360 counter terrorist element. You know, we we attack the provos 2576 03:23:10.399 --> 03:23:12.760 and we killed them. You know. Tiri's old thing is like, 2577 03:23:12.840 --> 03:23:16.000 look like my family, but my family got murked and 2578 03:23:16.399 --> 03:23:18.959 and like kicked out of our home. You know, we 2579 03:23:19.239 --> 03:23:22.120 we need somebody to protect Protestant areas from this kind 2580 03:23:22.200 --> 03:23:25.319 of thing. Yes, you say, you know what, that's not 2581 03:23:25.479 --> 03:23:29.079 we do. So Tiri joins the UDA. Well, first he 2582 03:23:29.200 --> 03:23:35.120 joined the shankillt Defense Association, And there was a bunch 2583 03:23:35.159 --> 03:23:39.600 of quote defense associations that got set up in Protestant hoods, 2584 03:23:40.200 --> 03:23:46.000 especially in interface areas, and basically they'd organize on like 2585 03:23:46.120 --> 03:23:50.600 quasi military lines, you know, and like vigilantism, whether it's 2586 03:23:50.719 --> 03:23:53.440 here in the American South and whether it's an Ulster, 2587 03:23:54.120 --> 03:23:56.319 that's just like what we do. You know, that's just 2588 03:23:56.440 --> 03:24:02.479 what that's what Ulster Scott do. Okay. As the as 2589 03:24:02.559 --> 03:24:07.000 these defense organizations like started street fighting with their Catholic 2590 03:24:07.399 --> 03:24:12.920 neighbors and and with the provos and and with other elements, 2591 03:24:15.079 --> 03:24:20.159 they start getting coalesced into a single element which became 2592 03:24:20.239 --> 03:24:24.159 the Ulster Defense Association, which at peak I think had 2593 03:24:24.200 --> 03:24:29.280 about fifty thousand members. And UDA's notion they weren't outlawed 2594 03:24:29.360 --> 03:24:33.920 until nineteen ninety two because they incorporated above Board, and 2595 03:24:33.959 --> 03:24:37.000 they said we're a defense organization and like an event 2596 03:24:38.680 --> 03:24:41.840 Dublin intervenes, we're gonna go to the rifle and we're 2597 03:24:41.879 --> 03:24:44.479 going to attack, or an event you know, we get 2598 03:24:44.600 --> 03:24:49.319 sold out by London, we're gonna fight. You know. That 2599 03:24:49.479 --> 03:24:53.680 was their whole deal. And UFF was the current name 2600 03:24:53.760 --> 03:24:57.760 for the direct action element, which was Ulster Freedom Fighters. Okay, 2601 03:24:57.879 --> 03:25:00.319 those are their shooters, that's what they called themselves. And 2602 03:25:00.399 --> 03:25:03.520 they claimed that they weren't the same organization. And a 2603 03:25:03.559 --> 03:25:06.760 lot of people on the provo side as well as 2604 03:25:06.840 --> 03:25:08.879 just kind of observers are critical of how this whole 2605 03:25:08.920 --> 03:25:12.440 thing was handled by the Crown. They say like, well, 2606 03:25:13.000 --> 03:25:15.600 you know, UFF was very much like in part of 2607 03:25:15.719 --> 03:25:18.639 Crown proxy and that's why they just let it do 2608 03:25:18.760 --> 03:25:23.079 each thing. That's not the old It's it's more murky 2609 03:25:23.159 --> 03:25:31.719 than that, okay. Butterierry, he he developed a reputation for 2610 03:25:31.879 --> 03:25:35.879 two things. He was a guy who kind of raised 2611 03:25:35.920 --> 03:25:40.799 hell within the organization for like strongly heterodox ideas, and 2612 03:25:40.959 --> 03:25:43.239 he was he was very very tough, so like the 2613 03:25:43.319 --> 03:25:46.120 men respected him, even though he thought that he was 2614 03:25:47.559 --> 03:25:51.239 kind of spinning off into crazy territory. I said with 2615 03:25:51.280 --> 03:26:02.319 all respect, that's just a fact. He Heerry's kind of 2616 03:26:02.399 --> 03:26:06.280 the zenith of this tendency. In May nine seventy four 2617 03:26:06.399 --> 03:26:14.440 there was the Ulster Workers Council strike and Tierry knew 2618 03:26:14.479 --> 03:26:17.600 a bunch of these guys and like the in the 2619 03:26:17.680 --> 03:26:21.799 Belfast and Ulster wide labor movement because he'd been like 2620 03:26:21.840 --> 03:26:25.040 a shop steward like back in his like days as 2621 03:26:25.079 --> 03:26:29.399 like a factory laborer, you know, So he was he 2622 03:26:29.600 --> 03:26:33.239 was somewhat close to this guy Glenn Barr, who was 2623 03:26:34.000 --> 03:26:38.280 the strike leaders like the UDA. In those days they 2624 03:26:38.360 --> 03:26:41.079 had like a very socialist event you know, and like 2625 03:26:41.200 --> 03:26:45.120 the and like the the worst council strike like basically 2626 03:26:45.280 --> 03:26:48.399 like shut down Belfast. This was still when you know, 2627 03:26:48.520 --> 03:26:52.559 like the UK was an economy relying on national industry. 2628 03:26:52.600 --> 03:26:57.280 There's like really really food barred things. So Tierry got 2629 03:26:57.360 --> 03:26:59.879 this reputation is like this kind of like labor leader 2630 03:27:00.120 --> 03:27:02.360 and like hero the working man like which he was. 2631 03:27:02.479 --> 03:27:06.600 I wasn't cap he was those things, but he also 2632 03:27:06.799 --> 03:27:09.799 was like this like rabid loyalist. So that like raised 2633 03:27:09.840 --> 03:27:13.280 the UDA's profile because like people theretofore have been like 2634 03:27:13.760 --> 03:27:15.719 these guys are just like a munch of like yahou 2635 03:27:16.120 --> 03:27:20.200 vigilantes and killers and like sectarian wacos. They're like, oh, 2636 03:27:20.280 --> 03:27:22.680 maybe these guys are like actually like serious people or 2637 03:27:23.239 --> 03:27:25.879 and whether we like them or not, they're gonna have 2638 03:27:26.040 --> 03:27:29.239 like a serious impact on how the crisis resolves in 2639 03:27:29.319 --> 03:27:33.399 Northern Ireland. But Terry, he was a big strass arrist. 2640 03:27:34.000 --> 03:27:37.680 He was like reading the kind of content that like 2641 03:27:37.760 --> 03:27:40.559 the New Order was putting out. He was like reading 2642 03:27:40.680 --> 03:27:43.600 like potical soldier stuff that the National Front was putting out. 2643 03:27:44.719 --> 03:27:48.760 He took out. He started putting out essays and like 2644 03:27:48.840 --> 03:27:52.639 the UDA magazine. But we got a push for an 2645 03:27:52.639 --> 03:27:57.120 independent ulster like Ian Paisley's a bastard, Like fuck these 2646 03:27:57.159 --> 03:27:59.799 politicians who are trying to like piggyback on the fact 2647 03:27:59.799 --> 03:28:03.680 were fighting the war. You know. Tierry famously banned like 2648 03:28:03.719 --> 03:28:06.399 Ian Paisley from like this one UDA meeting, Like he 2649 03:28:06.479 --> 03:28:08.360 physically is like you like pushed them bags, like get 2650 03:28:08.399 --> 03:28:10.040 the fuck out of here. That made a bunch of 2651 03:28:10.079 --> 03:28:12.559 people really upset. They're like, you can't do that. He's 2652 03:28:12.559 --> 03:28:15.399 not gonna do what the fucking want. You know, what 2653 03:28:15.479 --> 03:28:19.680 are you gonna do about it? You know? So maybe 2654 03:28:19.680 --> 03:28:21.719 he had more balls and good sense in some ways, 2655 03:28:23.319 --> 03:28:26.959 but point being This is like when the third position 2656 03:28:27.239 --> 03:28:30.760 like came to Ulster, which at that point was like 2657 03:28:30.879 --> 03:28:36.879 a peaked conflict cycle. Okay, so that's kind of when 2658 03:28:37.159 --> 03:28:39.559 and people started like connecting the dots. I don't like 2659 03:28:39.719 --> 03:28:41.799 mean like you know, like the man in the street. 2660 03:28:42.520 --> 03:28:45.440 I mean it's like academic types and these military sociologists 2661 03:28:46.520 --> 03:28:48.479 and these guys were very much kind of on the 2662 03:28:49.360 --> 03:28:53.840 public affairs and psychological warfare side of special operations. They're like, 2663 03:28:53.920 --> 03:28:57.280 what's happening here, Like maybe this isn't like a great 2664 03:28:57.399 --> 03:29:01.200 thing that this third position off is like spinning off 2665 03:29:01.280 --> 03:29:05.399 from what was a very manageable and constructive, you know, 2666 03:29:06.879 --> 03:29:10.479 missing profile and Gladio and I believe that was the 2667 03:29:11.200 --> 03:29:14.799 earliest stuff that's super critical of Gladio. It kind of 2668 03:29:14.840 --> 03:29:20.600 got it kind of went into circulation again during during 2669 03:29:20.719 --> 03:29:28.120 uh the uh the premiership of of h who's the 2670 03:29:28.200 --> 03:29:31.959 Italian guy who who likes the ladies and dyed his 2671 03:29:32.079 --> 03:29:36.680 hair and like Sconi, Yeah, yeah, he bro Leasconi was 2672 03:29:36.719 --> 03:29:40.440 part of this weird like quasi Mason Lodge that people 2673 03:29:40.959 --> 03:29:42.600 added like a bunch of these guys and like they're 2674 03:29:42.639 --> 03:29:44.879 like two thousand, like oh, that's that's part of Gladio. 2675 03:29:45.479 --> 03:29:47.719 So these kind of info wars type guys and like 2676 03:29:47.840 --> 03:29:52.920 other kind of people like that, they started circling all 2677 03:29:52.920 --> 03:29:55.000 this stuff like Gladio like it's just like this big 2678 03:29:55.120 --> 03:29:58.319 conspiracy like not, and like a lot of the content 2679 03:29:58.399 --> 03:30:03.719 they were dropping about in like the later seventies, as 2680 03:30:03.840 --> 03:30:07.239 people were kind of like saying, like Gladio is a 2681 03:30:08.239 --> 03:30:10.680 is a terrorist tendency and here's why what was happening 2682 03:30:10.760 --> 03:30:13.639 in Belfast. You know, look at these cops got blown 2683 03:30:13.719 --> 03:30:16.360 up in Italy, Like look at all these bad guys. 2684 03:30:16.440 --> 03:30:19.639 Who are you know, they're fascists. They they they got 2685 03:30:19.719 --> 03:30:25.520 crazy ideas. They're sitting around reading reading Stressorus propaganda. That's 2686 03:30:25.600 --> 03:30:28.719 kind of like what brought it into and kind of 2687 03:30:28.799 --> 03:30:32.600 into the into the conscious mind of some of these people. 2688 03:30:33.680 --> 03:30:37.040 And this is this is actually important. You know, It's 2689 03:30:37.079 --> 03:30:39.920 not I realized I got like a strong research interest 2690 03:30:40.079 --> 03:30:47.399 and things and like not in Ireland. But that that that, uh, 2691 03:30:47.879 --> 03:30:51.840 that they that it's significant what we're talking about. And 2692 03:30:53.319 --> 03:30:57.360 you know, like I said too like as it later on, Yeah, 2693 03:30:57.440 --> 03:31:02.920 after Thierry was killed, Uh, you know this kind of 2694 03:31:03.040 --> 03:31:08.040 third force in the loyalist paramilitarism or third way rather 2695 03:31:10.479 --> 03:31:15.200 third position in paramilitarism that kind of endured man. And 2696 03:31:15.360 --> 03:31:17.239 like I said, like I put Billy Wright in the 2697 03:31:18.000 --> 03:31:22.079 camp even though conditions were different. By the time he 2698 03:31:22.239 --> 03:31:29.399 became powerful on the on the street. And uh, but 2699 03:31:29.559 --> 03:31:35.000 this guy, uh Tierri's buddy was this guy named Sammy Duddy. 2700 03:31:36.239 --> 03:31:40.799 And uh one of the there's a there's an there's 2701 03:31:40.799 --> 03:31:44.040 a there's a conflict resolution outreach center in Belfast named 2702 03:31:44.040 --> 03:31:46.600 from Duddy, which is interesting. But he was a guy. 2703 03:31:46.760 --> 03:31:48.719 He's a guy with a reputation, is like a thinker 2704 03:31:49.239 --> 03:31:51.879 in the U d A. And a lot of these 2705 03:31:51.959 --> 03:31:54.520 UDA guys are very committed to their politics. But a 2706 03:31:54.600 --> 03:31:56.280 lot of them are kind of like brawlers and like 2707 03:31:56.399 --> 03:32:00.200 roughnecks and and and like action oriented guys. The other 2708 03:32:00.239 --> 03:32:04.000 kinds of guys were prone to by like discussing political 2709 03:32:04.079 --> 03:32:10.600 theory with you, you know. But you know, uh Tiri 2710 03:32:10.799 --> 03:32:13.319 and uh Duddy absolutely worth those kinds of guys as 2711 03:32:13.360 --> 03:32:17.399 well as being you know, very very very hard dudes. 2712 03:32:19.200 --> 03:32:24.360 But that the uh tiriy Uh he was one of 2713 03:32:24.360 --> 03:32:26.600 the guys who found the quote the new Ulster of 2714 03:32:26.639 --> 03:32:35.440 political research group. They they they became famous or within 2715 03:32:36.319 --> 03:32:42.319 conflict study circles because uh, they published this paper called 2716 03:32:42.479 --> 03:32:48.200 UH Beyond the Beyond the Religious Divide, and it reiterated 2717 03:32:48.239 --> 03:32:50.520 the call for an independent Ulster or at least like 2718 03:32:50.559 --> 03:32:54.200 it devolved a truly devolved UH political structure to be 2719 03:32:54.280 --> 03:32:59.239 implemented and finding some way to make peace with the 2720 03:32:59.360 --> 03:33:05.399 provos and some sort of like organic capacity which was 2721 03:33:05.479 --> 03:33:10.479 really which was really which was really interesting, I think, 2722 03:33:12.440 --> 03:33:20.319 but that uh, you know, he this is this this 2723 03:33:20.520 --> 03:33:23.600 really if you look at people want to know about 2724 03:33:23.639 --> 03:33:26.280 like what the real world impact was of of Gladio 2725 03:33:26.719 --> 03:33:30.280 and whatnot. Like that's I mean, beyond the fact there's 2726 03:33:30.319 --> 03:33:34.280 a series of insane murders in Belgium that people think 2727 03:33:34.479 --> 03:33:37.799 was Gladio adjacent. I don't think that's the case. We 2728 03:33:37.920 --> 03:33:41.600 can talk about that in another I've i think playing 2729 03:33:41.600 --> 03:33:43.760 with the idea of doing some content unlike the big 2730 03:33:43.920 --> 03:33:47.399 like conspiracy theories, like the things that ways, the ones 2731 03:33:47.440 --> 03:33:49.959 that always think are worth addressing, you know, and I 2732 03:33:50.040 --> 03:33:53.040 know it's just like stupid, but that would be the 2733 03:33:53.079 --> 03:33:56.600 time to take up something like that. But that's that's 2734 03:33:56.680 --> 03:33:59.000 basically what I have on Gladio, man. And then like 2735 03:34:00.079 --> 03:34:04.520 it's just like as an addendum or an epilogue, you know, 2736 03:34:04.680 --> 03:34:09.920 this people gotta understand too, you know, the original mandate 2737 03:34:10.000 --> 03:34:14.559 of Special Operations Forces it wasn't to train Navy seals 2738 03:34:14.639 --> 03:34:18.159 to be like direct the action super commandos you know 2739 03:34:18.280 --> 03:34:24.079 who who deployed the landlocked countries and get on target 2740 03:34:24.239 --> 03:34:27.799 of individual guys who are thought to be you know, 2741 03:34:28.440 --> 03:34:31.840 teleban operatives and like penetrate our targets and then kill them. 2742 03:34:32.079 --> 03:34:36.040 That's like not what they were for, Like Special Operations Forces, 2743 03:34:36.200 --> 03:34:41.520 as Kennedy envisioned it as a William Odom who was 2744 03:34:41.600 --> 03:34:43.520 very much big army, but as he you know, he 2745 03:34:43.600 --> 03:34:47.040 had he was he was instrumental in native war planning. 2746 03:34:47.200 --> 03:34:49.760 The way he envisioned in their role in the force structure, 2747 03:34:50.479 --> 03:34:56.319 it was when Warsaw Pact overruns us, we're gonna we're 2748 03:34:56.360 --> 03:35:00.399 gonna parachute or glide in. You guys who like the 2749 03:35:00.520 --> 03:35:03.959 people in theater and talk their language are going to 2750 03:35:04.040 --> 03:35:08.399 click up with these gladiol guys on the ground and 2751 03:35:08.479 --> 03:35:11.239 you're gonna train them on how to do things operationally, 2752 03:35:11.600 --> 03:35:13.920 and you're gonna lead them and you're basically gonna play 2753 03:35:14.000 --> 03:35:18.040 Red Dawn in occupied West Germany or in Italy. Like 2754 03:35:18.200 --> 03:35:22.079 that was the idea. You know, it took time for 2755 03:35:22.159 --> 03:35:25.159 this is gonna develop into a mainstream idea, and like 2756 03:35:25.239 --> 03:35:28.280 by the late eighties, like yeah, that everybody took that 2757 03:35:28.440 --> 03:35:31.680 for granted. But this was viewed as weird and crazy 2758 03:35:32.000 --> 03:35:37.159 and dangerous and shady pretty much by everybody. And that's 2759 03:35:37.200 --> 03:35:39.840 one of the reason it's green Berets like nowadays, like 2760 03:35:40.879 --> 03:35:44.680 the spare punked up of the Army of Special Operations Forces. 2761 03:35:46.120 --> 03:35:49.840 Until the nineties, people like at green Berets as you're 2762 03:35:49.840 --> 03:35:53.399 a weirdo, you like killing people, you're probably a fascist, 2763 03:35:53.520 --> 03:35:56.280 and you're creepy, and you will never get promoted above 2764 03:35:56.479 --> 03:36:00.399 like colonel probably that's not just like something in Rambo movies. 2765 03:36:00.479 --> 03:36:05.399 That was like the way it was okay, and it 2766 03:36:05.520 --> 03:36:09.120 wasn't clear like how in a general war this would 2767 03:36:09.159 --> 03:36:12.559 actually develop because it never you never know when you 2768 03:36:12.680 --> 03:36:15.799 have a novel concept, don't get me wrong, Like this, 2769 03:36:16.000 --> 03:36:19.600 this idea of repecial forces was absolutely correct. That was 2770 03:36:19.639 --> 03:36:23.079 a very forward looking idea and it was a very 2771 03:36:23.159 --> 03:36:29.959 ballsy idea, and it was absolutely the way uh, you know, 2772 03:36:30.120 --> 03:36:34.719 Army Command Europe should have been looking at things. But uh, 2773 03:36:35.559 --> 03:36:41.360 it was not something that people felt comfortable with. And 2774 03:36:41.440 --> 03:36:43.360 of course there was a concern too, like what if 2775 03:36:43.399 --> 03:36:48.840 these guys like go native, which was entirely possible, Okay, 2776 03:36:49.479 --> 03:36:53.000 but that's that's where a lot of this kind of 2777 03:36:53.079 --> 03:36:57.319 strange uh stuff came from. In terms of cap about 2778 03:36:58.360 --> 03:37:00.600 Gladio of being this conspiracy the part it was a 2779 03:37:00.680 --> 03:37:06.639 typical typical lefty stuff about oh, the government is actually 2780 03:37:06.760 --> 03:37:09.319 fascist and doing all these bad things, like the government 2781 03:37:09.399 --> 03:37:11.760 is terrible things. But it's not because they're like secret 2782 03:37:12.000 --> 03:37:15.959 fascists or something, obviously, but the a lot of the 2783 03:37:16.079 --> 03:37:18.840 concern about this kind of stuff, that's where it came from. 2784 03:37:19.520 --> 03:37:24.760 But it did despite the fact that you know, World 2785 03:37:24.760 --> 03:37:30.520 War three never came, there was a direct impact on 2786 03:37:31.920 --> 03:37:37.319 the politics of Europe and even in conflict zones like 2787 03:37:37.399 --> 03:37:43.959 Northern Ireland. And those guys who constituted that the core 2788 03:37:44.079 --> 03:37:49.040 of these tendencies that came up with Gladiol, we they 2789 03:37:49.159 --> 03:37:51.520 are part of what we are. I mean, if if 2790 03:37:51.559 --> 03:37:55.879 you're somebody who you know is finds common cause with me, 2791 03:37:56.319 --> 03:37:58.280 I mean I'm not I'm not speaking for anybody else, 2792 03:37:58.639 --> 03:38:02.000 you know when I say we, you know, so that's 2793 03:38:02.639 --> 03:38:04.840 you've got to know. You've got to know your own heritage, 2794 03:38:05.639 --> 03:38:10.079 not just you know. Uh. In terms of ethnos and 2795 03:38:10.280 --> 03:38:14.079 and and your familiar lore and your your your race 2796 03:38:14.159 --> 03:38:16.040 and your nationality, like you've got to know, like where 2797 03:38:16.040 --> 03:38:20.040 are these ideas that you commit to or come from? 2798 03:38:20.559 --> 03:38:22.520 And that's part of it. I hope that wasn't a 2799 03:38:22.600 --> 03:38:24.680 scattershot like I said, I don't know. I think we 2800 03:38:24.760 --> 03:38:26.600 can wrap up now because I don't frankly have much 2801 03:38:26.680 --> 03:38:29.360 else and I'm not feeling good, so forgive me. 2802 03:38:30.360 --> 03:38:33.760 Yeah, yeah, not a problem. I have two questions. Yeah, One, 2803 03:38:34.159 --> 03:38:37.040 were you thinking of Mark du trou when you talked 2804 03:38:37.040 --> 03:38:38.159 about the serial killer. 2805 03:38:38.280 --> 03:38:41.959 Or he's he's another one who's also affiliated with that? No, 2806 03:38:42.200 --> 03:38:45.719 these guys in Belgium, they pulled these high incident robberies 2807 03:38:46.239 --> 03:38:48.840 where they'd storm like a grocery store or something like 2808 03:38:48.959 --> 03:38:50.600 not even like a turn of the made set. They'd say, 2809 03:38:51.000 --> 03:38:54.360 this is a robbery. Empty your pockets. Then they take 2810 03:38:54.440 --> 03:38:57.920 like the manager and they them open the safe and 2811 03:38:58.000 --> 03:39:00.840 they take like like like if quoting like three hundred 2812 03:39:00.879 --> 03:39:06.200 dollars or something. Then they'd kill everybody and witnesses and 2813 03:39:06.319 --> 03:39:09.040 see them like loading into this van. And it was 2814 03:39:09.159 --> 03:39:14.760 guys with like glocks and h and k's and stare 2815 03:39:15.440 --> 03:39:20.159 like like military weapons, like wearing gloves who were like 2816 03:39:20.280 --> 03:39:24.319 in shape, and it's like these guys are killing like five, 2817 03:39:25.479 --> 03:39:28.840 they're catching murder liability for five bodies to steal like 2818 03:39:28.920 --> 03:39:31.680 a few hundred dollars. And they did this like six 2819 03:39:31.799 --> 03:39:35.479 or seven times, like they were never identified. But guys 2820 03:39:35.600 --> 03:39:38.719 doing that kind of stuff like got like like three 2821 03:39:38.799 --> 03:39:41.879 to six guys would show up in like military gear 2822 03:39:42.239 --> 03:39:45.159 with like balaklavas or ski masks. This is a robbery. 2823 03:39:45.239 --> 03:39:48.600 No one's gonna get hurt. But then they kill everybody 2824 03:39:49.799 --> 03:39:53.479 and a lot of people like these guys were gladiooperatives, 2825 03:39:53.559 --> 03:39:55.639 you know, trying to scare people. But it's like why 2826 03:39:55.639 --> 03:39:57.760 would they be doing that. It's not like subsequently the 2827 03:39:57.799 --> 03:40:01.040 government of Belgium's like this is martial law. It was 2828 03:40:01.079 --> 03:40:04.120 just like they were doing this and nobody knew why 2829 03:40:04.399 --> 03:40:07.639 the government was being weird about it. Definitely said people 2830 03:40:07.639 --> 03:40:09.959 are like, oh no, they were just training for you know, 2831 03:40:10.120 --> 03:40:12.120 like on target direct the action mission. It's like, that's 2832 03:40:12.159 --> 03:40:14.440 not any train people. And if they're gonna do that, 2833 03:40:14.559 --> 03:40:16.559 you know what you do or what you would do. 2834 03:40:17.159 --> 03:40:19.360 You'd say, this is a tramp house. See if you 2835 03:40:19.399 --> 03:40:22.079 guys can get in there kill everybody and not die, 2836 03:40:22.799 --> 03:40:25.719 Like that's how you do it, you would say there's 2837 03:40:25.719 --> 03:40:29.079 some pensioners and like women and kids shopping for groceries 2838 03:40:29.360 --> 03:40:32.959 like shoot them. Oh, and nobody has any weapons like 2839 03:40:33.040 --> 03:40:36.159 that's not that doesn't make any sense. But I'm not 2840 03:40:36.239 --> 03:40:38.200 feeling well, so I'm having some brain flog. But I'll 2841 03:40:38.879 --> 03:40:41.600 I'll do chows another one though, and that case also 2842 03:40:41.719 --> 03:40:42.559 makes like no sense. 2843 03:40:43.559 --> 03:40:46.159 But all right, well then I'll let you. I'll let 2844 03:40:46.239 --> 03:40:49.600 you get going here. Yeah, just do quick plugs. 2845 03:40:50.040 --> 03:40:54.040 Yeah, yeah, man, thank you, Pete. I've got a lot 2846 03:40:54.079 --> 03:40:57.159 of content in the can from my pod and people 2847 03:40:57.280 --> 03:41:00.000 like my homie Jefferson Lee and like my friend Danna 2848 03:41:00.079 --> 03:41:04.840 they Ramondo. They've been like helping me with all this stuff, 2849 03:41:04.879 --> 03:41:07.559 which is awesome. So there's a lot of fresh stuff 2850 03:41:07.559 --> 03:41:11.079 on my substack where the that's where the podcast is 2851 03:41:11.120 --> 03:41:14.159 and other good stuff. It's real Thomas seven seven seven 2852 03:41:14.200 --> 03:41:19.920 dot substack dot com. I'm on social media at real 2853 03:41:20.319 --> 03:41:27.479 capital r E A L underscore number seven lowercase h 2854 03:41:27.680 --> 03:41:33.200 O M A S seven seven seven. I'm on t 2855 03:41:33.360 --> 03:41:34.280 gram and Instagram. 2856 03:41:35.200 --> 03:41:35.319 Uh. 2857 03:41:35.440 --> 03:41:38.440 My dear friend HERR Kreig, he puts out like branded 2858 03:41:38.520 --> 03:41:41.399 merse that we make because just like stuff that I 2859 03:41:41.479 --> 03:41:42.959 think it's cool because I'm kind of like a T 2860 03:41:43.120 --> 03:41:47.159 shirt guy and like a closed guy. If you'd include that, 2861 03:41:47.440 --> 03:41:50.120 like in the descriptions. I can never remember like what 2862 03:41:50.319 --> 03:41:55.120 the what the website is, but yeah, that's so where 2863 03:41:55.120 --> 03:41:58.360 I'm at. Then I promise im I'll be better in 2864 03:41:58.399 --> 03:42:01.000 a few days and and forgive me if this wasn't 2865 03:42:01.079 --> 03:42:01.680 up to snuff. 2866 03:42:01.760 --> 03:42:05.079 Man, No, this is all good. This was uh, this 2867 03:42:05.239 --> 03:42:09.120 was good. There was a lot there. Yeah, I'll include 2868 03:42:09.200 --> 03:42:10.719 everything that you you asked. 2869 03:42:10.879 --> 03:42:12.559 All right, that's a great, thank you. 2870 03:42:12.639 --> 03:42:14.200 Hete all right talks. So thanks