WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:03.919 Oh hey, it's the dog toy under the couch that 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:07.360 you won't find for another four months. Ali Ward, and 3 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:09.880 it's evil. Let's talk about it with a professor in 4 00:00:09.919 --> 00:00:13.599 the Department of Religion at the University of Manitoba who 5 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:16.800 has written the book on it. It's titled Evil a 6 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:21.239 Critical Primer and teaches the course Evil in World Religions. 7 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:24.199 They have a Bachelor in Religious studies, a master's in 8 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:28.000 critical theory in religion and feminist ethics, and a PhD 9 00:00:28.199 --> 00:00:33.320 in critical theory, ethics, hermeneutics and psychoanalysis. And who will 10 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.520 deal with my questions such as what is evil? Who 11 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:38.880 is evil? What do we do about evil? Can we 12 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:40.679 scream over turkey at Grandma's house. 13 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:41.520 We're going to get. 14 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:43.399 Into it, but first, thank you so much to patrons 15 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:45.759 who support the show and have from the beginning, and 16 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:48.280 y'all leave your questions. You two can join for a 17 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.880 dollar a month at patreon dot com slash Ologies thanks 18 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:54.240 to everyone wearing ologies merch from ologiesmerch dot com. If 19 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:57.679 you have kids or sensitive ears, we also have versions 20 00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:00.880 of ologies that are a classroom and kids say g rated. 21 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:05.159 Those are in their own feed. They're called smologs. Smologies, 22 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:07.599 which is linked in the show notes. Thank you to 23 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:11.159 anyone who leaves reviews for this show, which helps so much, 24 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:12.840 and I read all of them and I prove it 25 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:15.120 with a recent one. This one is from Toma TiO 26 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:17.680 twenty two, who wrote that the show makes the interesting 27 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:22.640 extremely interesting and the uninteresting equally is interesting. And also, 28 00:01:22.879 --> 00:01:25.760 after listening to last week's cockroach episode, the show made 29 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:28.560 them eat bugles for the first time in over a decade. 30 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:32.640 They say no regrets. Tomatio twenty two. May the horn 31 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:35.439 be with you, it is also with me. Also, thank 32 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:37.760 you to sponsors of the show who make it possible 33 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:40.000 for us to donate to a cause that theologist choices 34 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:40.400 each week. 35 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:42.799 So you want to go up this road here and 36 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:44.519 gets it around a bit. Now you take a left 37 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:46.000 and then you go past the Murphy's house, you know, 38 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:48.040 to Murphy's. They're your lad, Sean. I thank you so 39 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:52.040 for in London now, Oh yeah. FBD doesn't stand for 40 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:57.920 frustratingly bad directions. FBD stands for support. We support van 41 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:00.760 drivers in Ireland with up to seventy five off new 42 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:03.599 van policies. FBD insurance support. 43 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:05.239 It's what we do. Can't miss it. 44 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:07.560 Once you pass there, a little terrier was tied to 45 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:10.120 chase yet and once he gives up, you should be there. 46 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:12.879 Seventy five percent off based on five years No claims. 47 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:16.039 Discount terms and conditions apply. Underwritten by FBD Insurance Plc. 48 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:19.319 FBD Insurance Group Limited, trading as FBD Insurance, is regulated 49 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:20.439 by the Central Bank of Ireland. 50 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:28.439 Does your supermarket have notions? Look for the signs cheesemongers, aristas, 51 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:35.080 pretend farmers' markets, forty three identical olive oils and the 52 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:39.960 word artismal written on every available surface. If in doubt, 53 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:43.599 get yourself to your nearest Aldi, where you'll get all 54 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:47.159 the quality with none of the madness at prices. You'll 55 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:51.960 love Aldi. It's not complicated, okay. 56 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:56.520 Critical ponoralogy, So ponurology comes from the Greek word for evil, 57 00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:59.319 and you will understand why the critical is in there 58 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:00.000 in a minute. 59 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:01.719 We fudged it a little bit. 60 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:04.680 But ever since I saw the word ponorrology on this 61 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:08.120 bigologies list as the study of evil, I have wanted 62 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:11.479 to explore the topic so much. So let's talk about 63 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:15.120 the origins of evil. Different cultural approaches to the notion. 64 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:18.120 Who uses the word evil to mean what if your 65 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:23.879 toddler is evil? Vampires, angry mobs, seeking, vigilante justice, news personalities, 66 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:27.240 saying unhinged things. When you are a subject and when 67 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:29.879 you are an object, why should you be nicer to. 68 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:33.120 Your coffee table? And if evil exists? And who says so? 69 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:37.639 With scholar, author, professor, gem of a person and we'll 70 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:41.439 just say critical ponorrologist, doctor Kenneth McKendrick. 71 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:03.360 My name is Kenneth McKendrick and my pronouns are he 72 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:04.319 him vebem. 73 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:05.319 Let me jump right in. 74 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:08.520 What's the difference between someone who studies evil and a ponorologist? 75 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:11.039 So this is embarrassing. I had to look the word 76 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:13.759 up because I didn't know what the word was. And 77 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:16.959 the definition that I found that you may have found 78 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:20.680 as well, was it's sort of a theological discussion about evil. 79 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:24.839 And a theology is basically a faith based position or 80 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:28.279 a belief based position. It tends to be monotheistic. It's 81 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:32.199 very often associated with Christianity, and that's. 82 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:32.519 Not what I do. 83 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:36.920 I'm interested in human beings and what I study is 84 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:40.639 people that talk about demons and who talk about gods 85 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:45.000 and goddesses and deities, but supernatural representation. So I'm super 86 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:47.439 interested in people that talk about comic books, and I'm 87 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:50.240 super interested in you know, games like dungeons and dragons, 88 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:53.240 and anytime you find like a supernatural representation like a 89 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.680 zombie or vampires or anything like that, I'm in right. 90 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:59.600 I find that fascinating because for me, the study of 91 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:04.279 religion about studying how something ordinary gets turned into the extraordinary. 92 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:08.439 And now you've been teaching courses in evil for almost 93 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:09.560 two decades, right. 94 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:11.759 Yeah, two thousand and two was the first time I 95 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.240 taught about the University of Manitoba. But I was teaching, 96 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:17.240 you know, at the University of Toronto in nineteen ninety 97 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:20.160 nine while I was still a graduate student. So I've 98 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:22.519 been thinking about the topic for quite a while. And 99 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:24.680 never gets old, never gets tired. I'm more of an 100 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:28.399 expert on I guess people talking about evil, well. 101 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:31.040 Okay, some semantics for you. So is it more of 102 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:33.759 a question of like, is evil really a thing? 103 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:36.240 Okay? So if you sort of look at a lot 104 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:37.800 of the literature and if you just type in evil 105 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:40.759 to a Google search or to a book search or 106 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:42.560 a public library search, would it be even better than that? 107 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:45.639 You'll find a whole bunch of books on evil. For 108 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:49.000 the most part, you'll find that these books read pretty 109 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:51.560 much the same. So you're going to have a chapter 110 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.639 on genocide, You're going to have a chapter maybe on torture. 111 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:57.439 You're going to have a section on natural evil, which 112 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:01.319 is like earthquakes and you know, environmental hazards. You're probably 113 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:04.759 going to have a chapter on ecoside and the destruction 114 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:07.759 of the environment. And then almost always you're going to 115 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.279 have a chapter on like Darth Vader and sort of 116 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.480 representations of evil and literature and in film, because that's 117 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:17.759 really fun and these are great, These books are inspiring 118 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:20.519 their importance because I draw attention to things like atrocity 119 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:24.720 and the dismantling of humanity and colonialism, misogyny, and racism, 120 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:28.079 and it's very useful, it's very interesting and very moving. 121 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:30.600 And I was like, there's something missing in all of this. 122 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:33.199 How did we get to evil? Like how did we 123 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.680 get to this idea of evil where we could actually 124 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:40.600 apprehend something as evil. I thought a lot about this, 125 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:43.360 and I was trying to figure out one. I think 126 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:45.759 if we all know what evil is, there's nothing really 127 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:48.079 else that we can learn about it right, because we 128 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:50.399 know everything there is to know, we just recognize it 129 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:53.360 when we see it. This was really really unsatisfying. And 130 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:56.639 so a colleague of mine, Darling Rishka, she in one 131 00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:58.720 of the classes she was teaching, she was a novel Dracula. 132 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:01.519 This is a fantastic novel by Bram Stoker. 133 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:04.720 Side notes, So for a past Spooktober episode, we have 134 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:08.279 a two parter on vampires with Professor Doctor Jeff Holden, 135 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:11.839 as well as a terrritology episode on monsters in pop 136 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:13.439 culture with Doctor W. 137 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:14.319 Scott Poole. 138 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:17.879 And we have a twenty twenty four episode on genocide 139 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:19.439 which may be of interest. 140 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:21.240 But one of the things that I found to be 141 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:24.519 most striking about the novel Dracula is that all of 142 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:29.160 these good characters come together and they have a job 143 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:32.000 to do, and they have this really weird experience with 144 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:34.879 Count Dracula. Then they decide they're going to kill this guy. 145 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:40.279 So he comes over to England and they just obliterate him. 146 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:44.240 They decide that he's an abomination, and they decide to 147 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:46.439 totally destroy him, and they even go out of their 148 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:49.000 way in order to hide what they're doing from the 149 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:51.639 police and from attorneys. And lawyers and stuff like this, 150 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:54.319 and other medical professionals, and so I thought, okay, I 151 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:56.720 love the novel. Right, And in the context of the novel, 152 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:59.399 Dracula is a demon. There's note about he is murdering people, 153 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:03.000 he's horrific. He is an abomination. But thinking about the 154 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.879 process of how they went from this is a human 155 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:08.279 being to this is an abomination that we are going 156 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:12.600 to eliminate from the world, I found curious. And so 157 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:15.480 that was sort of the question that I began this 158 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:18.800 sort of journey about thinking about evil is like and 159 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:20.439 even though it's a novel, it's like, how did these 160 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:23.160 folks get to the point where they realize that something 161 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:25.639 had to be obliterated? And they didn't bring him the court, right, 162 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.480 They didn't say we think that you've done some really 163 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:29.639 bad things, we're going to hold you accountable for your crimes. 164 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:32.840 They just you're a demon and you must be obliterated. 165 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:37.399 And unfortunately, when you look around the world, do you 166 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:38.440 see this happening? 167 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:38.679 Right? 168 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:42.240 You see people simply being obliterated. You see horrible things 169 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:44.559 happening to people all the time. You know, I'm not 170 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:46.799 a historian of genocide, and I'm not a historian of 171 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:51.200 stilism and colonialism. But I'm really interested in how we 172 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:53.799 get to the point where we're able to identify something 173 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:56.799 as evil. And that's what I find really scary about 174 00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:00.360 the topic of evil is that Dracula is horrible. And 175 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:03.200 I love that because it's a horror novel and he's 176 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:05.720 a horrible villain, then that's great. But the characters scare 177 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:10.320 me more because they just they've empowered themselves to have 178 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:14.519 no guilts, no shame, no doubt, no hesitation, and those 179 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:18.159 things are actually seen as weaknesses and data finds interesting, 180 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:20.399 compelling and certainly worth talking about. 181 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:25.600 Well, is vengeance considered evil? And where's the line between 182 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:26.840 vengeance and justice? 183 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:30.240 Well, that would require a scale right of what is 184 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:32.480 just and what is unjust? And so where do we 185 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:35.519 find the word justice? Where do we find the word criminal? Like, 186 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:37.759 where do those terms come from? And how do they 187 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:39.559 get used? How do they get used to vilify people? 188 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:42.200 Is this a corporate sham or is it something invented 189 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:45.279 by grandma or you know, is this deep seated kind 190 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:47.039 of thing that we have in our society and it's 191 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:48.480 been with us for a long time? And is that 192 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:50.519 a good thing? Is it a bad thing. So sort 193 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:52.960 of asking questions is one of the things I really 194 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:54.639 try to do. You know, again, I'm not after the 195 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:56.960 existential question of whether these things exist or not. I'm 196 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:59.039 interested in what people do with the word evil, and 197 00:09:59.399 --> 00:10:01.840 as a human being, just as a non you know, academic, 198 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:04.600 just in like on the street, in my everyday life. Yeah, sure, 199 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:06.279 I may use the word evil when I want to 200 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:08.919 control the situation, right, And if I call something evil, 201 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:11.440 that gives me a little bit of control over the situation. 202 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:14.799 And if people buy my conception of evil, that gives 203 00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:16.840 me a lot of power. Right. As an academic, I 204 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:19.240 have to stand back and say, like, so, doctor Ken, 205 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:21.360 how have you used the word evil? 206 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.080 So this brings up the big notion that evil is 207 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:26.679 kind of in the eye of the beholder, as is 208 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:30.440 justice and vengeance. So how is all this stuff defined 209 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:34.440 between individuals and then among cultures and even used by 210 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:38.720 leaders to polarize or vilify or categorize acts that actually 211 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:42.919 require concrete action. So does everyone use the word evil 212 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:44.600 about the same amount they don't. 213 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:46.600 I'm actually studying some of my colleagues who use the 214 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:48.519 word evil too. I turn them into my data. Whether 215 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:51.039 they like it, or not. I'm interested in the people 216 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:53.240 that use those terms and how they get used and 217 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:55.080 what they do with them and how effective they are. 218 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:57.879 Okay, be honest, how often do you use the word 219 00:10:57.960 --> 00:10:59.120 evil like casually? 220 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:03.279 That's embarrassing. I for sure use it. I mean I 221 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.200 teach it, and yeah, I use it, but I don't 222 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.679 think I use it really seriously. Like if you know, 223 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.000 I'm having a conversation at the dinner with the family 224 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:15.120 and we're talking about a political decision or transphobia or 225 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:17.480 something like this, and I try not to use the 226 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:20.240 term because it comes with so much baggage, it comes 227 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:23.440 with so much freight. To introduce it into conversation is 228 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:26.720 just it's not really helpful. It's easier to use less 229 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:28.799 loaded terms like religion. Is the same way. As soon 230 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:31.279 as you use the word religion, people make lots of 231 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:33.679 assumptions about what that word means and maybe who you 232 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:36.519 are or what that entails. That's again, it's a really 233 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:37.200 loaded term. 234 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.879 So in another Spooketopra episode about mummies mammiology with doctor 235 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:45.840 Karacooney and doctor Selima Ikram, we discuss religion versus ritual 236 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:48.840 and magic, and also we dive into that in our 237 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:51.840 Witchology episode with Pio Parma, who themselves is a practicing 238 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:55.440 which with roots in Eastern and Western cultures. So the 239 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:58.960 term evil and religion go hand in hand, but the 240 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:02.600 word evil has of course leaked into secular culture to 241 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:08.440 describe unspeakable cruelty without the religious context. So how does 242 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:10.840 Kenneth handle this at a dinner party? 243 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:13.360 Most hesitant? Some says what do you do? I can say, 244 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:15.919 I study religion, and then I say, but I study 245 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:17.399 the fun stuff, And they said, oh, yeah, what do 246 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.279 you do? And I study zombies, and I study superheroes, 247 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:23.480 and I study imaginary companions and things like dungeons and dragons. 248 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:25.519 And then they're like oh, because now they know that 249 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:27.600 they're not going to get a sermon, and they know that, like, oh, 250 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:30.480 this is someone that studies popular culture. They're probably harmless, 251 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:33.159 and you know, probably in the arts and stuff and 252 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:34.399 that kind of thing. 253 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:37.360 So you're not going to leave with a pamphlet, and 254 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:38.559 you might. 255 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:40.799 Leave with the book. You probably won't leave with a pamphlet, though. 256 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:44.519 Ken published a book in twenty twenty three titled Evil, 257 00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:48.240 a Critical Primer, which examines academically the way that the 258 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:51.279 word evil is very contextually bound, and it dives into 259 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:55.480 different cultural factors that seek to define it. I like 260 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:59.759 to envision Ken with a smart leather satchel, handing out 261 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:04.480 hardcover copies at his wife's work functions, or passing out 262 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.480 the volume to a table of friendly strangers at a 263 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:10.200 cousin's wedding. I would be thrilled to be on the 264 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:12.879 receiving end and ask him one million questions and leave 265 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:15.399 with a copy, which, to be honest, is what essentially 266 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:18.279 this episode is. Now, did you grow up in a 267 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:21.120 religious household or did you grow up a D and 268 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:22.720 D NERD or both? 269 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:24.879 Yeah, it's going to be both. I grew up in 270 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:27.360 an academic household. My dad was a professor at the 271 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:30.639 University of Windsor. He taught English. My mom eventually became 272 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:32.600 a special instructor in a department of religion at the 273 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:34.919 University of Windsor, and she taught verses on death and 274 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:37.320 women in religion. And I grew up playing D and D. 275 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:39.519 So the basement filled with horror novels. My room was 276 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:41.360 filled with fantasy novels, and I played D and D. 277 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:44.440 And when we went on vacation, we went to bookstores 278 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:47.919 and cemeteries, and then I fell in love in high school. 279 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:49.720 I've my partner and I've been together for a very 280 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:53.440 long time. And her family is Pentecostal, and so they're 281 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:56.679 charsmatic and speaking in tongues and all of that. And 282 00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.919 in a sense, you know, me studying religion and making 283 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:02.639 evil part of that. It was trying to make sense 284 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:04.679 of my world. It was trying to make sense of 285 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:07.639 my everyday reality. There was people that seemed to live 286 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:09.679 in very different worlds, and I had some experience of 287 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:11.600 that playing D and D. Right, you're in a normal 288 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:13.679 worlds and then you've got the game mechanics and you've 289 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:15.799 got this imaginer world that you enter into, and that 290 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:17.519 does an extension of that real world. 291 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:20.360 Ken's family was less religious than his wife's because, you know, 292 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:24.799 being Pentecostal and speaking in tongues, it's a real lifestyle commitment. 293 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:27.360 My dad was funny. He died a few years ago, 294 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:30.159 but he was funny because he was It seemed to 295 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.200 me that he was mainly at church because of choir 296 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:34.679 and of the tea and cookies. 297 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:36.679 What about fellowship? 298 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:38.879 You know, the family that I married into was a 299 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:41.279 very different where the Bible is the word of God 300 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:43.879 and it's true and it's literal. And for me again, 301 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.279 that's why it's not a question about what isn't isn't real, 302 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:48.399 it's how do people then behave what do they do 303 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:50.840 with that information? That was how I made sense of 304 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:54.240 these sort of worlds. I was encountering the pentecostal world 305 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.159 where demons are alive and inside of people, and then 306 00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:58.559 this D and D world, which I knew to be 307 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:01.679 completely imagined. You get the world of academia too, where 308 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:05.399 we're all scholars and doing scholarly things and scientists and 309 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:07.159 doing these sciency things. 310 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:09.840 Well do you get along with your in laws? What's 311 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:10.159 that like? 312 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:14.559 There's been difficult times, but yeah, it's great. Like I mean, 313 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:17.919 the thing is like, regardless of how you look at 314 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:21.879 the world, when you come to the kitchen table, there's food, right, 315 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:25.480 and there's stories, and there's people that are arguing and 316 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:29.799 talking and sharing and laughing. And so when you focus 317 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:33.039 on what's at hand, then a lot of these larger 318 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:36.840 worlds that we occupy very often, you know, they take 319 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:38.720 a chill pill, right, they just sort of calm down. 320 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.120 It doesn't have to be these big you know, we 321 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:42.960 believe that you're going to hell and stuff. It's not 322 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:47.000 relevant to spending an afternoon by the pool or sitting 323 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:48.240 in a canoe and going padling. 324 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.000 Okay, I get that. In the Genocideology episode, doctor Dirk 325 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:55.840 Moses said that taking the temperature down on these discussions 326 00:15:55.960 --> 00:16:00.720 is what moves things forward. But also say that you 327 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:06.799 have deep, fundamentally different views of what other people ought 328 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.600 to be doing with their bodies or lives, or how 329 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:11.759 people should be treating each other, or how they might 330 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.720 judge each other, especially if you know that it's simmering 331 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:20.080 right under the surface because it involves people's ideology and 332 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:22.440 their identities. And what if you are pissed when it 333 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:27.679 comes to like having a barbecue, how do you not 334 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:32.360 want to hold others accountable? Or how do you have 335 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:38.639 that conversation without it becoming so heated that it does 336 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:42.919 become accusatory or it does invoke, you know, notions of 337 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:45.159 evil on this side or that side. 338 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:46.919 How is that temperature taken down? 339 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:50.200 It feels like we have an obligation in situations of 340 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:54.360 like emotional proximity, where it's not just about strangers fighting 341 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:57.440 strangers with hackles up and fight or flight responses, but 342 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:02.960 you know how how are those situations are approached without 343 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:04.640 it being so personal? 344 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:07.039 Yeah, I mean in a certain sense. I as an academic, 345 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:08.920 I don't really have any advice. We often push others 346 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.640 away because we're fear of being rejected ourselves. Like it's 347 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:13.720 a book called Others in Mind by Phil Rosche. It's 348 00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:16.720 beautiful book. It's wonderful book, but it talks a lot 349 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:18.920 about that we push other people away when we're afraid 350 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:21.039 that they're going to push us away, so we do 351 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:24.279 it first. And that seems like this is what's happening 352 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:26.519 in you know, politics today, is that people are pushing 353 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.119 other people away because they're afraid of being rejected. Like 354 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.480 this matrix of purification is really based on I think 355 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:35.559 a lot of anxiety, a lot of fears, a lot 356 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.319 of fragility because you know, if you're really robust, you'd 357 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:39.720 sit down at the table with anybody and talk to 358 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:40.599 anybody about anything. 359 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:41.000 Mm hmm. 360 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:44.039 Theory is one way, practice goes another. But ultimately and 361 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:45.920 we have to sit around the table the result these things, 362 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:48.440 we're going to have to come to consensus. It's not 363 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.000 going to happen in an academic journal or like, it 364 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:51.799 doesn't matter how true. 365 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:54.319 The theory is is your partner still Pentecostal or just 366 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:54.799 raised in it? 367 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:55.960 Raised in it? 368 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:56.400 Yeah? 369 00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.519 Yeah, it was an interesting journey and moving out of that, 370 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.039 that's still part of who we are. Like who I 371 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:04.839 am in the classroom is different than who I am 372 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:06.400 on the podcast and who I am going to be 373 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.039 at the dinner table tonight. It's like we adopt different 374 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:11.839 personas and ways of being in the world based on 375 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:13.440 context and that kind of thing. 376 00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:16.920 So back to evil, who defines it and what it 377 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.680 means and where the notion of it came from? This 378 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:22.839 is so interesting historically and culturally. 379 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:25.799 My hunch is that we took this basic idea of 380 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:29.200 clean and dirty and we grafted evil sort of into 381 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.160 that concept and sort of blended them together in order 382 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.359 to be able to make the idea of evil thinkable. 383 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.960 And for me, that's really really fascinating is what are 384 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.359 the things that make evil thinkable? Like as a concept 385 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:44.160 when something is diabolical or atrocious or you know, demonic, 386 00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:46.240 what are all the things that went into you being 387 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.160 able to think that? And I think dirt is one 388 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.279 of them. There's a book by Mary Douglas called Purity 389 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:52.920 and Danger, and for me, it was a bit of 390 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.440 a revelation because she basically said, look, when you look 391 00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:57.839 out at the world, you classify everything that you see 392 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:00.519 at the borders of your system of classcation, at the 393 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:02.400 borders of your language, at the borders of the way 394 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:04.039 you look at the world, there's going to be sort 395 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.559 of blurry areas, and that blurry area that's dirt. And 396 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.240 so dirt appears whenever things aren't orderly, and so you 397 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:12.960 have I've got my water glass here, and I've got 398 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:14.480 the mic, and I've got my phone and a computer. 399 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.480 Everything is in its proper place, but there's a knowing 400 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.759 thing on my desk. The plant is actually leaking over 401 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:21.720