WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:02.439 So we mounted up, did a quick scan. We're like, 2 00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:04.080 all right, let's go. Came up with our soul plan 3 00:00:04.759 --> 00:00:07.360 and my support by fire position that was being provided 4 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:13.880 by the infantry. Never underestimate the enemy. They pumped two 5 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:16.640 mortar rounds onto that to knock them out as they 6 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:19.960 saw us driving in, so they had to displace and 7 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:22.320 now I had no support by fire. We had no 8 00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:25.600 air support. At the time. There was stumb pulling in 9 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:27.600 on the overhead. It was just like a confluence and stuff. 10 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:30.239 So now we drive down at this compound and as 11 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:32.479 soon as we get there, we are in the base. 12 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:36.079 Murk Murphy's loss. As if your attack is going well 13 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:39.960 through an ambush, Well, my attack went swimmingly because I 14 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:41.799 was at the base of a U shape ambush and 15 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:45.600 they were hammering us inside of one hundred yards. The 16 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:48.719 RPG round bounced off the hood of my truck. I 17 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:51.600 don't know what it just and it blew up behind us. 18 00:00:55.719 --> 00:01:00.399 My guys dismounted and started doing fire re maneuver bounds 19 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:03.399 to these guys in trench lines and they're throwing grenades 20 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:07.560 on the age. Oh my god. Well, I think it 21 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:09.719 scared the shit out of the enemy because they're like, 22 00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:11.040 these guys are crazy. Yeah. 23 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:23.000 Yeah, Hey guys, it's your pal Jack. 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That's 47 00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:45.719 ten percent off and a free Stopbox Pro when you 48 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:50.680 use the Code House at STOPBOXUSA dot com. Discover a 49 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:54.560 better way to balance security and readiness with Stopbox. 50 00:02:56.400 --> 00:03:08.080 Special Operations. Cobert Spi and The Team House with your hostess, 51 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:11.800 Jack Murphy and David Park. 52 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:19.400 Hey everyone, this is episode three hundred and forty two 53 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:21.120 of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with our 54 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:24.759 guest in studio today, Ivan Ingram. I'ven't had a career 55 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:27.960 in the Marine Corps, served in recon Force recon MARSK 56 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:30.319 and then some Jaysock assignments. 57 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:32.919 There's a lot to talk about here. 58 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:37.000 You're also an author, written a series of books, The Patrol, 59 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:40.520 Dream Job. What are some of the others, twenty two 60 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:43.479 and Athena. Okay, those are the ones that are out now. 61 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:44.879 He has more in the works. 62 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:48.719 Evan, thanks for joining us, coming in studio today, pleasure. 63 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:52.879 So you know the question I ask everyone about their 64 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:54.560 origin story, If you can tell us a little bit 65 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:56.759 about you know, how you grew up and how that 66 00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:58.120 took you towards the Marine. 67 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:04.599 Corps kind of by accident. I'm from Maryland. My father 68 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.960 was a colonel in the Army as an army psychologist, 69 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:13.599 and he wrote a book called The Boys in the Barracks, 70 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:19.199 which is a study of the Army's morale and a 71 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:22.199 lot of the leadership issues that the organists that the 72 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:28.399 Army is an organization, encountered after Vietnam. And while while 73 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:31.480 what he found was a bit frustrating for the Army 74 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:35.480 to read writ large because of the racism, drug problems, 75 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:41.199 lots of insubordination, many issues that were plaguing you know, 76 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:44.360 a unit or a force that had come out of 77 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:49.279 protracted combat and just was really bad morale. He and 78 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:53.800 his research team looked at Special Forces units, Army green 79 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:58.079 berets to kind of understand why they didn't face the 80 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:00.319 same issues. They might have had them same, you know, 81 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.680 in some areas, but not nearly across the force the 82 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:05.399 way that the Army did. And so they were looking 83 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:11.639 at ways to harness that which functioning units with good 84 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:15.000 morale and good leadership were working so that they could 85 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:18.439 actually try and export that to the larger United States Army. So, 86 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:20.839 as I was growing up, that was the world in 87 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:22.759 which I was living, and I got to meet a 88 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:24.920 lot of Special Forces veterans because of the people he 89 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:27.000 was interviewing or people who were helping with some of 90 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:29.399 the projects he was working with or working on, and 91 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:32.800 the people he was working with. And then on the 92 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:37.720 other side of that, my mother was a professor of 93 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:43.040 English expository writer expository writing teacher at Howard University. So 94 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:46.319 I grew up in a house We're writing. That was 95 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:49.600 something that both of my parents did, and I kind 96 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:51.639 of eschewed the military lifestyle, even though I was very 97 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:54.160 into military history and I loved going to museums and 98 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:57.079 things like that. I grew up in Europe for a time. 99 00:05:57.240 --> 00:05:59.040 I got to travel all around and go to different 100 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:01.279 battlefields and young kid, that was just a great way 101 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:04.920 to grow up. So then when I went to college, 102 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:07.720 I played lacrosse in college, and when I was getting 103 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:11.639 out or finished that and decided, Okay, I'm gonna go 104 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:13.839 into the civilian workforce, I just kind of had this 105 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:19.199 nagging desire to serve or do something more adventurous, and 106 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:21.639 so I really wanted to be a law enforce, major 107 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:24.439 federal law enforcement agent. So I looked at the marshals, 108 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:29.040 I looked at diplomatic security. FBI can proudly say I 109 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:32.240 was turned down by all of them, and I kind 110 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.639 of I asked, like, why, what's going on? What do 111 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:37.800 I need? And they just say, this is the nineteen nineties. 112 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:42.399 You need experience and you need a little more seasoning. 113 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:46.600 So their recommendation, some of the law enforcement agents I 114 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:51.079 was talking to, just joined the military and get some experience, 115 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:54.399 get your resume built, and then reapply. You're young enough 116 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:57.600 that you can do that. So I did join the 117 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.279 Marine Corps. And what year is this. I was in 118 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:03.600 nineteen ninety seven, and my father being an army officer, 119 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:05.439 after I signed the paperwork, I don't know if you 120 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:08.199 think I thought I was gonna do it, because I 121 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:13.680 came to his house in December of ninety seven and 122 00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:15.879 my father was recovered alcoholic. He hadn't had a drink 123 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:17.720 of whiskey in years. As a bourbon guys, I could 124 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:20.319 drink a Bourbon tonight, so that's that's only fitting. And 125 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:22.800 he had this bottle of jim Beam that he that 126 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:25.399 he kept with the cork still in it from his 127 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:27.480 last drink, and he kept that on his desk for 128 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.920 like just a reminder like, I don't do this. And 129 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:31.839 so I showed up to his house and I said, Dad, 130 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:33.560 you know I did it. I joined the Marine Corps. 131 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:35.560 He had this passion look on us. So he's like, 132 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:38.199 oh my gosh, like you really okay again, you said 133 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:40.279 you're gonna do it, you did it. I guess this 134 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:42.319 calls for a drink, and I said, Dad, you don't, 135 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:44.120 you know, don't drink. He goes, it's not for me. 136 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.800 So I probably had a drink from the last sip 137 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:52.360 of the bottle that he had, and I guess he 138 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:56.560 passed on that legacy. But he wasn't lying when he 139 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.000 said that, so passed on the torch he did. I mean, 140 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:01.360 he's like, you're gonna, you're gonna this, and so, yeah, 141 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:04.160 I had I was lucky to have him as a 142 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:10.399 as a resource for learning about leadership, about officership, about followership, 143 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:12.759 about just the dynamics of what it is to be 144 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:15.480 inside of a military organization. Of course, they have to 145 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:16.199 do it yourself. 146 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:19.240 And I'm a military psychologist at that well, that had 147 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:24.160 its own, like its own own challenges, but of course, yeah, 148 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:26.519 I mean I was at that point. 149 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:28.240 I was just as the Marine Corps said, you know, 150 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:30.160 he's working together with Gung Ho. I was, I was. 151 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:31.839 I was into it. I wanted to be part of this. 152 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:33.720 I thought, this is going to be great. I'll do 153 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:36.440 my four years and uh, inside that four years, I'm 154 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:37.600 going to try and do as much as I can 155 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:39.200 in then or five years. And then So you came 156 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:41.840 in as an officer I did. I went to OCSH. 157 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:45.960 I was. I was probably recruiters like absolute dream because 158 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.159 I didn't ask a whole lot of questions and I 159 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:50.000 was just like, all right, when when do I get 160 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.600 set up? And they, oh, well, we don't get guns 161 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:56.120 too too quick, just hang on, just hang on, buddy. 162 00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:59.000 Am I going to jump school soon? Or like an 163 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:02.200 easy guy? So a lot of things I had to 164 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:04.320 learn about the process, but ultimately I was, I was 165 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:06.519 you know, motivated. Motivation will get you through a lot, 166 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:08.960 as we know. So I hope that at least gives 167 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:10.879 you know, the beginning of the context we can expand 168 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:11.360 on that everything. 169 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:13.279 Yeah. Yeah, so you come in as an officer, go 170 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:18.000 to o CS. I. I mean what I don't In 171 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:19.519 the Army they call it a branch. I don't know 172 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:21.480 if they call it the same thing in the Marine Corps. 173 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.000 What did you kind of branch into what was your 174 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:24.679 basic course? 175 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:31.279 So marine marine officers will generally be sourced from either 176 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:36.279 r OTC slash what's called me SEP Marine Enlisted Commissioning Program, 177 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:38.519 so that sort of people can come up through Frank 178 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:42.080 Gold that kind of thing exactly. But again that's tied 179 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.840 to some sort of established ROTZI naval Rozzi program, you know, 180 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:49.279 with the university or o c S. And then of 181 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:52.440 course the Naval Academy is its own, its own provider 182 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:58.759 and everyone once you're commissioned, regardless of your source. So 183 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.879 I just did OCS ten straight weeks over the winter 184 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:03.879 with some very caring staff. I mean they were they 185 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:06.279 were wonderful, They were very attentive, made sure that I 186 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:09.519 understood how to be a marine right right off the bat. 187 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.080 You never forget your drill instructors. And if anyone says 188 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:15.519 they were a marine and can't name their drill instructors 189 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:17.440 right away, no matter how long ago it was, they weren't, 190 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.720 they didn't do it. So Gunnytown staff Start and Carpenter 191 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.080 and Sergeant Torres wherever you are, left an impression on 192 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:28.480 your young mind. Yeah, I would say we're probably the 193 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:30.360 three of the most interesting men I've ever met in 194 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:34.600 my life. So, but yeah, so you go through OCS 195 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:35.919 and then after that you go what's called to the 196 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:38.559 basic School, which in the army equivalent would be kind 197 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:44.080 of like Bullock, but you're not you're not getting actual 198 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:47.159 branch training. So in my case, everyone goes to the 199 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:50.600 basics school for six months, whether you're an aviator or you're. 200 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:52.559 Sort of teaching you like Marine Corps mission planning and 201 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:54.240 that kind of thing, just the basics of being in 202 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:56.960 a rifle squad and carrying a machine gun and got you. 203 00:10:57.039 --> 00:11:00.000 It's it's not it's not easy training. I mean, you're 204 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:02.279 you're doing all kinds of life fire arranges and they 205 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:04.000 just teach you, they say every marine or riflemen, but 206 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:06.399 they want every officer to be able to lead troops. 207 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:08.600 And you may never touch this again. You could go 208 00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:11.840 to supply or you know, controller or what have you 209 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:14.679 and not putting down anybody's mos. But so when you 210 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:19.240 talk about your the military occupational specialty is what you 211 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:25.200 get assigned. And when I joined I sat and took 212 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:31.440 the naval aviator test and the results were such that 213 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:34.960 they said I could fill one up with gas. But 214 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:39.399 I wasn't going to fly one, so I had to 215 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:41.519 do something else. And they were like, well, there's a 216 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:43.559 lot of loud, hot jobs in the Marine Corps ivan 217 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:46.559 and maybe you'd be an infantryman because you're big and 218 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:48.240 you can carry a lot of shit, so maybe that's 219 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:49.360 for you. And I was like, oh, yes, I was 220 00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:51.279 good carry guns and like went run through the trees. 221 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:53.759 And then when I was there, I met guys who 222 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:56.240 had been in the me set program, who had been 223 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:58.440 in Force Reecun and they started telling me, like, I 224 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:00.639 really didn't know that much about that side of it, 225 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:02.039 and they started telling me about Force week On and 226 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:04.200 their time in it, and all of a sudden, I 227 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:06.679 was like, that's where I want to go. And you 228 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.320 had to be an infantry officer at the time, or 229 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:12.639 a ground intelligence officer, scott sniper, poteam commander to really 230 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:19.279 be considered for those jobs, and that rubbed off on 231 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:23.000 you fast. Oh yeah. And these guys were also they 232 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:25.519 were fit that they carried themselves a little bit differently. 233 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.080 They like, there's a lot of bullshit in the military, 234 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:30.799 and they just seemed to be able to transcend it, 235 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:32.840 Like it just seemed like they had it a better. 236 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:34.559 You know, one of my very good friends that I 237 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.080 served with him he just retired, was just a little 238 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:38.720 behind me. Of course, he made it a colonel. I 239 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:41.919 didn't quite catch him, but he you know, he was 240 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:43.480 the first guy that I really met who had done that, 241 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:46.440 and I was I thought, okay, like, this is this 242 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:47.919 is a culture, this is what kind of a thing 243 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:49.559 I'd like to be a part of. And I really 244 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:51.159 didn't know that much about it. But you first had 245 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:52.559 to get to the fleet, and you first had to 246 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.639 be an infantry officer. So after I finished the basic school, 247 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:57.600 I then went to ten weeks of Infantry Officer course, 248 00:12:57.639 --> 00:13:00.600 which I haven't been to rangers, but it is very 249 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:02.759 much like ranger school and that you're just doing lots 250 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:06.840 of mission dynamic planning and it's all officer based. You're 251 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:08.960 leading your peers and learning how to do it. The 252 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:14.080 Infantry Officer course, it produces a very good light infantry leader. 253 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.080 Now it's even I think even better because they do 254 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:19.840 a lot more call for fire. They talk about combined 255 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:22.679 arms and ways that were evolved as a result of 256 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.080 the GWATT and just the experiences they had. So it's 257 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.039 as far as the Marine Corps writ large hat in 258 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:32.799 combat in both Afghanistan and Iraq, so they've improved that incrementally. 259 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:36.440 But back then it was very still, very tough, very 260 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:37.279 dynamic training. 261 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:41.519 And back in these days in the nineteen nineties, the 262 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:44.120 Marine Corps wasn't a part of Special Operations Command and 263 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:46.639 they didn't have a presence there. And I mean, I'm 264 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:48.600 going to like trigger some people when I say this, 265 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:52.000 but like Force Recon and Recon really kind of was 266 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:54.600 like the Special Ops of the Marine Corps, even if 267 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:58.720 it wasn't technically on paper. And those guys were I mean, 268 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:02.200 I think they were on par with Seals, Rangers, green Berets. 269 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:04.840 I mean, they were highly trained, motivated dudes. 270 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:10.559 I agree. I mean the pipeline. Once I I went 271 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:15.399 to I was assigned the first Marine Division, first Marine Regiment, 272 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:22.320 first Battalion, fourth Marines in Camp Pendlen, California. By far, 273 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:25.279 one of the best assignments I've had, even still of 274 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:26.759 all the pictures and stuff I have on the wall 275 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:29.519 my the one of my my first inverts of Patoon 276 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:34.279 just it. I had a great time across my career 277 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:37.879 and I got to be part of some really strependous units. 278 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:39.759 But like you never forget your first and these guys. 279 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:42.279 Take us, take us into that your your first p 280 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:43.799 L assignment with the infantry. 281 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:49.360 Yeah, I was really well, you know, my first day 282 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:54.720 I showed up. We didn't have even the fire watch metal. 283 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:57.279 We didn't even have the eggs and I mean the 284 00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:59.799 ketchup and mustard metal back then, because there was no war, 285 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:02.039 there was no service. So I literally the only thing 286 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:06.000 I had going into going for me on my uniform 287 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:07.440 was the fact that was a double expert. I could 288 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:09.159 had the expert rifle and expert pistol. And there's the 289 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:12.519 only two badges hanging on my my my service aufhas 290 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:15.639 and that's what you checked into the regiment in And 291 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.799 I went down to one four and as I was 292 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:21.720 coming in, a staff sergeant was coming out and he's liked, whoa, 293 00:15:21.799 --> 00:15:24.240 so where are you going? I said, oh, I'm going 294 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:25.639 in to check in. He goes, now like that you're not. 295 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:28.200 He reached up and he fixed my tie, which I 296 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.120 guess had come, you know, a skew while I was 297 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:33.679 sitting in the car, So that already I've got it. 298 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:37.120 Steffencio's you know, helping me out. And this really green lieutenant. 299 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:39.919 So I walk up the stairs and I go to 300 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:41.879 see the executive officer and he's the major and he's 301 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:43.879 his grim face like angry dude. He's sitting there liking 302 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:47.159 like this. I don't know whether it knock on the 303 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:49.399 hatch or whatever. So he looks up and he goes, 304 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:51.279 who are you? I said, my name's a Tenor Ingram, 305 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:53.559 and he goes, I get in here, and he reaches 306 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:55.320 out like this with his hand. So I walk over 307 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:56.519 to say. He said, goes, I do't want to shake 308 00:15:56.519 --> 00:15:58.639 your fucking hand. Give me your o QR. It was 309 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:03.159 off for qualification right the jack. And I'm like, oh, yes, sir, 310 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.720 I guess this is how you know welcome. So I 311 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:08.039 haven't even been in this building for ten minutes. I 312 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:11.279 already had that fixed and now he's given me the business. 313 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:13.519 He goes, you haven't done shit. You don't no shit. 314 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.320 You're going to Charlie Company. Get downstairs, and that was it. 315 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:20.840 So I was like, where's Gunny Highway? Like this this 316 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:23.080 is nuts? Since I walked back downstairs and as I'm 317 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.000 coming down the passageway that's what we called you guys 318 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.279 call it a hallway, coming down the passageway, I see 319 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:29.919 the Charlie Company offices and out comes my first platoon 320 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:34.039 Sergeant Pat Reddick, and he's like, we heard you were coming. 321 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.960 Thank god you're here. And I said, why, this is great, 322 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:39.120 what a welcome man. I've had a rough rough morning already. 323 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:41.279 He goes, well, we got five marines right now who 324 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.440 are under investigation for a congruine and here's their defense packages. 325 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:45.519 And by the way, we got to go see the 326 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.759 Battian commander tomorrow afternoon. So I was taking care of it. 327 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.559 But now that you're here, you've got it. So that 328 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:54.480 was my first day in the infantry. I had five 329 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:56.919 you know, guys under charges and one dude who requested 330 00:16:56.960 --> 00:16:59.320 court martial. And I was I was standing for the 331 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:00.720 hazing l that a whole went to thing going on, 332 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.640 and I was like, wait a minute, the basicsool. They 333 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:05.960 didn't talk about any of the stuff, like we were 334 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:08.400 talking about two up and one back, infantry attacks and 335 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:10.400 all this other stuff. I was like in a helo company, 336 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:12.599 cocktor company. So I was like, we're gonna go faster oping, 337 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:14.680 We're gonna do all this up. Sure. Platoon had like 338 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:17.519 some Jack Nicholson, you can't handle the truth. Yeah kind 339 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:19.519 of like that. Yeah. Yeah, they just got back from 340 00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:23.519 deployment and got a new new shipment of boots from 341 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.359 from uh MC frams Sy School of Infantry and the 342 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:29.200 Yellow The old guys decided they want to tell the 343 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:31.240 young guys what's up, and so then there was a problem. 344 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:33.599 So that's how I was introduced to the Fleet Marine 345 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:37.039 Force and uh, from that point forward, I was like, okay, 346 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:40.200 the I'm in a different world. So had your court 347 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.960 martials get uh the one guy, Oh, let'saly not yours, 348 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.839 because I wasn't court martial that was there to observe. 349 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:49.480 The one guy beat it, uh and actually hitded up 350 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.000 going to First Force recon Company. Now that I think 351 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:54.920 about it, the other guys all requested, you know, they 352 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.319 they took their n JP and UH and moved on. Yeah, 353 00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:59.240 we went, we went through it, and I still talk 354 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:02.039 to my battalion can entered this day. John Holden was 355 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:05.799 his name. In fact, he had a great command climate 356 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:07.680 and it was it was a great unit to be 357 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:09.400 a part of. I kind of regret that that he 358 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.279 didn't get to take that unit to war because see, 359 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:13.759 just a bad timing of of of of everything. 360 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:14.880 Uh. 361 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:17.640 But he was a dynamic leader. He really cared for 362 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:21.640 his people, and he was a good good mentor. And 363 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:23.720 uh and he told me years later, he was like, 364 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:25.519 that was a tough way to come into the sure, 365 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.240 you know, to join h to join us. 366 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:29.400 And so otherwise, I mean, how did like, from a 367 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:32.079 leadership perspective, how did you push your platoon past that? 368 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.400 I mean, you walked in big bag of shit. You 369 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:38.720 get handed, Well, you have to. 370 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:43.880 I've always said this regardless of unit, because believe me, 371 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.279 I got in us, Like you want this guy he's 372 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:47.160 a ship back or hey, you know, this guy's got problems. 373 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:49.119 And I try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt. 374 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:53.920 And by nature I am kind of a judgmental person. 375 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.599 I am a judgmental person for someone right now is 376 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:01.759 like kind of like I can be. And so I 377 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:05.599 was like, everybody gets a clean, clean slate, And whatever 378 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.200 adjudication happened, it was not mine decided, and it didn't 379 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:10.480 happen while I was here, even though I inherited it. So, yes, 380 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:14.039 you're responsible. But on the other side, now we can grow, 381 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:17.359 We're gonna have to. And some of these guys again 382 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:19.720 actually found that they were pretty creative and some of 383 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:23.519 these guys. You know, My father, being a psychologist at 384 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:24.799 one time, asked him like, hey, Dad, you know, how 385 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:26.720 do I get to know my guys? Like what should 386 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:29.519 I find a way to get some sort of personality 387 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:30.880 tests for them? And he's like, well, you don't how 388 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:32.759 to review any of that shit anyway, Like this is 389 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.319 all clinical. He's like, just get a keg up here 390 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:36.759 and lock the door. About two hours later, you're gona 391 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:39.920 figure out who everybody is. And he was right. So 392 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:41.240 I went in and I was like, all right, because 393 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:43.039 I had a bunch of I had hoodlums, I had 394 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:45.319 gang bangers. I had guys who were on work release 395 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:47.880 who are a tough group of guys. They're from all 396 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:52.440 over the country. And I was like, all right, I'm 397 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.000 not gonna turn anybody in, but you know who knows 398 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:56.119 how to boost a car? And these guys are all 399 00:19:56.119 --> 00:19:58.920 looking at her like I said, come on, who knows 400 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:00.680 how to you know who knows how wire stuff? Who 401 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:02.680 knows how to drive drive stuff? And starts these hands 402 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:04.880 going up. It's like the reason I'm asking is because 403 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:06.240 if we go to a really shitty place, I needed 404 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.079 people who can get things, and they're like, oh wow, 405 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:11.920 he's a bank robber. This is gonna be great, like 406 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.799 I've you know, But I mean that was the mindset 407 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:15.960 you had to have because you didn't know where you're 408 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.599 going to serve or anything, and you had to figure 409 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:24.039 out ways to capitalize upon strengths and also build a 410 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:24.720 little bit of trust. 411 00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:26.519 And it was the nineteen nineties in Marine Corps. You 412 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:28.519 guys weren't getting funding, you weren't getting new. 413 00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:30.279 Kit, and a lot of people we weren't getting a 414 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:32.240 lot of action either. We had like three guys in 415 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:34.319 the entire battalion had a Combat Action Room, which is 416 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.079 the cib S Combat Action Magic equivalent, like the old 417 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.400 sergeant majors and stuff. Well, the regimental sergeant major had 418 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.759 been in Vietnam. He's one of the last serving Vietnam 419 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:45.680 veterans at that point in time. But we're talking like 420 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:49.000 guys from Bosnia, gotcha, Our company gunny had been in Somali. 421 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:51.599 Our company commander actually had been in Somali in the 422 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.039 later or the early stages of it before you know, 423 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:57.480 the Marine Corps was there before kind of black Hawk 424 00:20:57.559 --> 00:20:59.880 down took over. So the initial push these so these 425 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.519 there are people who had some experience, but you did 426 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:06.480 not have this this large population, this baseline of people 427 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:09.440 that you could rely upon, in fact, combat veterans, you know, 428 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:11.440 seeing what my platoon was doing with hazeing would just 429 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.960 think that was a joke at this point. So you're right, 430 00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:14.880 there was nothing else to do. 431 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:17.519 And so I want to take a minute today to 432 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:20.400 tell you guys about the Perfect Gene. I've been wearing 433 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:23.000 them for a few weeks now and really enjoy them, 434 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:24.759 and I just want to share it with our audience. 435 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.759 You know, sometimes jeans have this problem where you know, 436 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:31.599 you guys all have seen these skinny jeans that they 437 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:33.920 like crush your balls and you know it's just not 438 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:36.599 comfortable to wear or the other way around. Jeans are 439 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.599 like too baggy. You know, you have this sort of 440 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:42.640 like diaper in your ass area looks like. So there 441 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.480 are these problems that you know, different fits of different 442 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:48.960 types of genses have and the Perfect Gene strives to 443 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:55.160 fix that, both the fit but also the mobility, the maneuverability. 444 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:57.880 It has a stretchy fabric, like they say it's like 445 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:02.000 yoga ready, but you know I would say it's athletics ready, 446 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.400 you know, moving furniture, doing things around the house. You're 447 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:09.440 not going to have that like super tight, like constricted 448 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:11.160 fit that you feel like you're not. 449 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:12.319 Gonna be able to move around in. 450 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:16.119 And there are over four hundred thousand people out there 451 00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:18.759 wearing these jeens at this point, so not all of 452 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.400 them can be wrong. I hope you guys will go 453 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:24.480 and check them out. So a few scenarios where you 454 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:27.200 can wear these genes and where they really come together, 455 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.640 everything from you know, doing yard work or doing things 456 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:34.160 around your house, if you have to move furniture around 457 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:37.240 or you have to do handy work. They're perfectly comfortable, 458 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:40.680 but you can wear them, you know, getting your man 459 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.839 spread on on the subway if that's your thing. So 460 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:47.440 the Perfect Gene is great for all kinds of different environments, 461 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:49.799 whether it's doing handy work around the house or on 462 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:52.759 the job or athletics. And we really hope you guys 463 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:55.200 will go and check them out. For a limited time, 464 00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:58.480 our listeners get fifteen percent off their first order plus 465 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:02.920 free shipping at the Perfect Dot NYC. Or google the 466 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:05.799 Perfect Gene and use the code house fifteen for fifteen 467 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:09.200 percent off. That's fifteen percent off for new customers at 468 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:14.759 the Perfect Gene dot NYC with promo code House fifteen. 469 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:17.920 After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them, 470 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.440 Please support our show and tell them we sent you 471 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:25.240 so fuck your kakis and get the perfect gene. Did 472 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:28.559 you guys get you know, not combat deployment probably at 473 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:30.720 that point, but did you guys get deployed? They like 474 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:32.079 to go out with the fleet and all that. 475 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:34.119 Yeah, we did. We were assigned to what's called a 476 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:38.480 Marine Expeditionary Unit, which is about a regiment slash brigade 477 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:41.880 sized organization. I say brigade because it's it's slightly bigger 478 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.359 than a regiment. It's fully supporting a board amphibious shipping 479 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.720 with I mean at the time, it deployed with tanks, 480 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:50.680 it has its own air support, it has its own artillery. 481 00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:53.519 It's an organic fighting organization. And so when a MEW 482 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.720 and I was on fifteenth W, you know, you could 483 00:23:56.720 --> 00:23:58.480 go ashore and do all kinds of stuff, anything from 484 00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:01.799 humanitarian ops to full scale combat, and it's all launched 485 00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:05.319 from shipping. So it was on the fifteenth MW we did. 486 00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:08.119 It was called a westpac Western Pacific, and back then 487 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:11.920 it was like there were liberty crewises. Honestly, we were 488 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:16.119 pulling into these great ports in Australia. Australia. Yes, we 489 00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:18.880 went to Hong Kong, we went to Singapore. We did 490 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:21.119 do some time during part of operations Southern Watch as 491 00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:23.720 far as just border security in Kuwait, but you're not 492 00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:29.200 doing active combat ops. I did combat operations in East 493 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:33.480 Timore that we were not. Yeah, that had just started 494 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:35.720 to simmer down. But we went to board or went 495 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:42.400 ashore there helping to establish really get the country back 496 00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:44.559 on its feet because it had been in a huge 497 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:45.720 civil war at that point. 498 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:47.519 I mean, I know the Ausis were all over that, 499 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:50.039 but I have to admit I'm pretty naive about the 500 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:51.920 United States military being over there. 501 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:53.680 Well, by the time we got there, the Aussies had 502 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:56.519 really already the team more and Tigers as they called them. 503 00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:58.599 They'd gone up on the border. And in fact I 504 00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:01.799 met Dave Coling years later that's where he had been 505 00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:03.799 his he had got his combat time. I always sadaficle 506 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:06.519 cul and stole my combat because he got there first 507 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:14.000 as a NAUSI. But it was still an active combat 508 00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:15.799 zone and we were flying missions in there. But we're 509 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.160 doing a lot of humanitarian aid trying to get infrastructure 510 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:21.160 back up and running case in point for the infantry. 511 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:24.039 They come to me and they say, hey, Ivan, there's 512 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:27.119 this road that hasn't been cleared to this village in 513 00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:29.559 this one part part of the highlands in East Timoor, 514 00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:31.559 and we need your guys to go in there and 515 00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:36.000 pull security until we can get heavy equipment mechanics in 516 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:40.519 there to fix the bulldozer and like, so you go 517 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:42.319 in there and do that, And I was like, well, 518 00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:43.839 why would I do that. I got squad leaders. So 519 00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:45.480 I grabbed a squad leader in the staff's are and 520 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:46.599 I say, hey, man, you're going to go in there. 521 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:46.759 Now. 522 00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:49.759 This this through shock waves through the mew. They were like, 523 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:51.599 oh my god, he's I was not leading these guys 524 00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:54.920 on the ground Like what I got. This is what 525 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:56.680 we're supposed to do, Like this is how this You 526 00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:58.759 have to delegate, but this is what it's meant to do. 527 00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.559 It's not that it's beneath me or I'm above it. 528 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:05.119 It's that I have very quality staff in cdios and 529 00:26:05.160 --> 00:26:07.599 the right people. So remember what I asked about, you know, 530 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:14.079 guys learn how to bullshit. We task organized the squad 531 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:18.440 to go in there for very specific purposes. Rapport all 532 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:22.079 this stuff, and they fly in and originally they were 533 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:24.680 gonna come have a H fifty three to giant helicopter 534 00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:27.519 come and like pick this bulldozer up that had stopped 535 00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:30.240 in clearing this road and then move it to a 536 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.839 spot that they equipment mechanics could could work on it 537 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.119 because it was in this really kind of precipitous area. 538 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:40.119 I meanwhile, the Marines were going to hold security so 539 00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:41.799 that these guys didn't get messed with. But if by 540 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.400 perhaps if these the tamories, you know, tigers came back, 541 00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:47.880 which they probably weren't going to do because the Ausies 542 00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:51.400 were all up in the highlands taking care of them anyway. 543 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:53.079 And so my guys go in in like day one. 544 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:55.440 They're just tinkering with the bulldozer and they get it 545 00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:56.799 fired up and then they just clear the road all 546 00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.559 the way up. Like the missions done, you can come 547 00:26:58.599 --> 00:27:01.359 get us. And when we showed up, so I flew 548 00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:03.559 in to watch this, and as we show up, they're 549 00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:05.279 playing soccer with the kids, and like, I'm like, this 550 00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:07.720 is exactly the building rapport. We got the mission done 551 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:09.920 at all? Yeah, it's all it's like, so you just 552 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:11.759 let the Marines be creative and they'll figure it out 553 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:14.680 and the huge lessons learn huge leadership lesson learning there 554 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:20.480 those Rabbronis knew how to bulldozer. Yeah, Twente was a 555 00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:23.359 gang banger for San Antonio. And he used to carry 556 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:25.680 this picture in his pocket of him in a hairnet 557 00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:27.799 and like he was like literally out of central casting 558 00:27:27.880 --> 00:27:30.559 with uh his flannel shirt and a shotgun under his arm. 559 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.359 I'm like now, and you know now he's a marine sergeant, 560 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:39.079 squad leader of the ionsight, So yeah, I mean, you 561 00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:42.839 don't forget guys like that. Yeah, well, and so we did. 562 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:44.759 So we did do that. We did that. Deployment was 563 00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:46.359 six months and then we came back after. 564 00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:48.559 And they say being an officer as your job to 565 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:52.160 identify the talent in your platoon and figure out how 566 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:52.799 to use them. 567 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:55.920 Right and and have have faith. And that's I think 568 00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.799 that's a critical part we'll probably get into a little later. 569 00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:04.400 It's just kind of it's not so much risk aversion, 570 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:08.160 because you know, commanders will risk you to do whatever 571 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:11.559 they need to do, but it's about confidence and whether 572 00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:15.039 they you'll get it done. And it's in many ways, 573 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:18.200 as we get deeper into the discussion, it's about branding. 574 00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:24.799 So what comes after fleet? What's the next step for you? 575 00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:27.160 You have Ricon already rattling around in the back of 576 00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:27.920 your mind somewhere. 577 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:31.920 And my battalion Commander John Holden had been a recon guy, 578 00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.960 and in fact, he had been the Marine Detachment oh 579 00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:38.640 SE at Fort Benning. So any recon person who came 580 00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:43.279 through there, who went to jump school, we didn't have 581 00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:47.759 a lot of exchange with Army USUFIC, the Army SF Command, 582 00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:50.680 but with Big Army i e. The Rangers and the 583 00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:53.880 Ranger School. He would just basically help the Marines get 584 00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:57.240 to there and through there, so he ranger qualified. He'd 585 00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:02.440 been in recon. And I took the recon selection test 586 00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:04.000 before I went on deployment. 587 00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:07.680 Okay, so I could come back like tests you mean, 588 00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:10.359 like a written exam or it was a physical oh okay, 589 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:12.279 physical test and like an actual selection yeah. 590 00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:14.799 And my actual selection got yeah and a board interview 591 00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:18.240 and they were like, yeah, okay, you can come on, 592 00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:20.160 but you could get through your deployment. And then when 593 00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:22.759 I was on deployment, Holden came to meeting just say, hey, 594 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.599 we're doing the slate for officers and stuff, and you 595 00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:27.039 still want to go to recon, right, that's what you 596 00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:29.000 want to do. I said, yeah, it goes okay. And 597 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:31.960 so when I got home, I had orders to first 598 00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:36.599 recon and so yeah, I kind of leaned into setting 599 00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:40.359 myself up I wanted at the time, I was like, 600 00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.400 I want, I'd rather be in First Force because First 601 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:44.960 Force had the direct action mission I had deployed on 602 00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:49.000 our me. You was the mew that that forced recon. 603 00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:52.720 Pultoon unfortunately had that tragic action on the uss P 604 00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:55.160 coost or the forty seven that you may have seen 605 00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:57.279 this this footage years ago of a forty six going 606 00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:00.359 over on it's back and seven seven marines uh and 607 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:03.400 sailors were killed on that. So that that was a 608 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:07.000 very tragic situation, particularly you know, small unit like force 609 00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:09.160 recon that that hits really hard. They had to reconstitute 610 00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:11.480 that unit, rebuild it. I learned a lot watching that 611 00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:15.039 happen as well. Uh. Bob Coates was the was the 612 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:19.599 leader years ago Debt CEO who one Debt one CEO. 613 00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:22.000 John Daily good friend of mine work with and you've 614 00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:25.279 interviewed him. And then Eric Kapatulik was the was the 615 00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:27.000 platoon commander and that was sort of the larger than 616 00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:34.519 life guy. So you know in that in that world 617 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:38.759 on the mew, that's who I was gravitating towards. But 618 00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:41.519 Forced at the time only had five plultuons and they 619 00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:43.960 didn't have any room. So I went to recon because 620 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:47.119 I just wanted to get behind the water, get in 621 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.319 there any way you can. So it wasn't like an 622 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:52.400 also ran. I just it was a different mission, different unit. 623 00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:55.680 When I got home, I had orders and recon. 624 00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:58.319 As I've people have described it to me, Recon is 625 00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:01.039 the green side. They do the sol like long range 626 00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:04.440 for connaissance patrols and the Force and Force recon of 627 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:06.640 course is the DA mission that you alluded to, right. 628 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:12.559 That's probably the biggest differentiator. Yeah. Force also was able 629 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:16.839 to lean further into deep penetration reconnaissance stuff, so they 630 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.559 did a lot more of military freefall. There were guys 631 00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:21.599 who had been to free fall school and we were 632 00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:24.279 all airborne qualified or for the most part, you know, 633 00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:28.920 the three twenty one, the badged. You're going to see 634 00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.440 a trend here that I'm always correlate to stuff. So 635 00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:38.119 but back to to recon. The training pipeline is largely 636 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:43.200 the largely the same as you go to different places 637 00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:49.680 or different schools and different different things throughout the pipeline, 638 00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:52.039 but it all starts at the base of Reconnaissance Course, 639 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:55.559 which is ten weeks long. That is your your your 640 00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:59.119 entry level school officers and enlisted to go there together. 641 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:02.680 It's not like airborne school. You're just an alpha, an 642 00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:06.319 echo or just a number, but you serving a team. 643 00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:08.359 As a team, you carry a radio. As an officer, 644 00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:11.039 you're not you don't have separate training that kind of thing. 645 00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:17.759 So you go to BRC. After that you become You 646 00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:20.240 then go into a schools pipeline which is a jump 647 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.359 dive seer branger if you can get it. But it's 648 00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:27.240 about two years if you put it all together. But 649 00:32:27.319 --> 00:32:28.839 if you match up all that training and there will 650 00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:30.640 be seals will just roll their eyes at this. If 651 00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:32.440 you went through the entire pipeline, you've gotten all the 652 00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:34.480 same training that the seals get in BUDS And that's 653 00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:37.000 BUDDS is much more efficient because it's just pushing everything 654 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.279 except the underwater demolition side. Right. Yeah, you don't touch 655 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:42.200 demo till later. And that's what I mean is that 656 00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:44.599 BUDDS is very comprehensive in the way that they do. 657 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:47.880 The training SQT is also very comprehensive. And that's the 658 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:50.039 problem in the recom pipeline, at least at the time 659 00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:51.839 when I was in there, is that you kind of 660 00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:54.480 did this incrementally, like hopefully you could have everything lined 661 00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:56.279 up and you go, you would pass it all. But 662 00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:59.279 if there was a deployment, right if you were going 663 00:32:59.319 --> 00:33:04.160 to go, if something happened, you know, anything, anything could 664 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:08.440 throw you off. So I leave one four, I check 665 00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:11.839 into first Recon again. In my office. Now I have 666 00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:14.480 a couple more, a little more ribbons just from deployment. 667 00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:16.359 They call it the meuse stack. 668 00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:18.680 It's just you know, you got out there and I 669 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:19.200 was on a boat. 670 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.440 Yeah, I was on a boat. Armed Forces. We got 671 00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:23.680 their armed Forces expeditionary metal because we went to a 672 00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.880 combat zone. We were not you know, you know, so 673 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:27.519 I got at that point I could join the Veterans 674 00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:29.839 of Foreign Wars, but I was you know, we're not 675 00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:32.519 combat marines. And so then you go into check in 676 00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:36.599 a ricon and it's like, oh shit, like memorabilia on 677 00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:38.960 the wall, like it's very tight. And you know, again 678 00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.599 what they called you if you were before you went there, 679 00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:43.240 they called you a roper because you would wear this 680 00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:51.240 static cremantle rope that you would could use for repelling 681 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:53.920 but turning, you know, and that that was you wore. 682 00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:56.279 You wore that over your shoulder, sort of this mark 683 00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:57.279 of shame that you were. 684 00:33:57.160 --> 00:33:59.960 Not that like thick nylon green rope or black. 685 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:04.440 Yeah, they didn't quibble. But I wasn't there long enough 686 00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:06.279 to become a roper because I got there just after 687 00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:09.800 my deployment and I walked in and Mike Politic, who 688 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:12.760 is the they called him Iron Mike Politic because the 689 00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:16.079 fittest could be served the Royal Marines Exchange. He was 690 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:19.000 just just a badass. And he too, is sitting over 691 00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:21.360 the desk like this, and I'm like, here we fucking 692 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:27.000 go again, knocking the hats. Who are you? Mike was 693 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:29.280 not nearly as gruff as as as my EXO at 694 00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:32.599 you know, in and one for and who are you 695 00:34:33.320 --> 00:34:35.920 was so attending and reporting his order. Oh yeah yeah, 696 00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:40.320 ingram Um, after this, you're gonna go oversee the XO. 697 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:43.760 But right now we've got you slated for about a 698 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:47.840 year's worth of schools. And in the event that you 699 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:49.639 should not pass, you don't have to be honor man. 700 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:52.079 But if you shouldn't pass or you quit your advert, 701 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:54.159 fitness support will be waiting for you and I'll and 702 00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:55.880 then you'll be in the parking lot. Is there anything 703 00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:58.920 about what I've just told you don't understand? Like Crystal 704 00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:03.400 clear sor he goes go to the XO. So go 705 00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:07.760 to the XO checking with him. It's your BRC class 706 00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:11.000 starts in like nine days. You can go down and join, 707 00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:13.320 you know some of the swim stuff, but I hope 708 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:15.559 you're ready. And I was like, Basic Reconnaissance Courses is 709 00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:18.039 gonna be whatever. I'm fine. I just came off a boat. 710 00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:22.679 I'm lifting all day in shape. I was quickly disavowed 711 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:27.239 of that day one of the the entry test, which 712 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:30.360 was just brutal. And then from that point forward you 713 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:32.639 have just ten weeks of just thrashing and hazing in 714 00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:37.519 it's five phases. You've got land navigation, You've got patrolling, 715 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:40.840 you have get the zodiacs and the zodiacs, you're carrying 716 00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:43.360 stuff on your head all running the oak course and 717 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:45.639 it's run out of coront Auto and yeah, you're you're 718 00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:47.960 training like literally side by side with with BUD students, 719 00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:49.800 just port and starboards. The stuff you're doing. You're doing 720 00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:52.880 surf checks, fins, all kinds of stuff, and you know, 721 00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:56.199 so you've got a communications package. You have to learn 722 00:35:56.199 --> 00:35:58.440 how to work all the radios and you know, then 723 00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:00.519 after that you do full mission pro files and it's 724 00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:03.880 all green side patrolling and sketching and taking pictures and reporting, 725 00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:06.000 and then you have to move to extract LZ's And 726 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:07.199 they were like, literally, if you don't make it to 727 00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:08.800 extract by the time you're supposed to, you're going to 728 00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:11.639 walk home. And they're not lying like the fact that 729 00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:15.559 the instructors almost took like this sick, you know, pleasure 730 00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:17.280 if somebody jacked it up, like well, but I guess 731 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:19.119 we're walking all night, and they would and we would. 732 00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:21.800 And did the Marine Corps run their own dive school 733 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:24.519 or did you go down to Key West for they 734 00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:27.199 do run their own dive school, Marine Combat and Divers 735 00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:28.639 run out of Panama City, Florida. 736 00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:30.199 That must have been a lot of fun. I went 737 00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:33.880 there after BRC. That was the next That was my 738 00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:36.960 second stop, and I was in phenomenal condition by all 739 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:39.199 the time I got done with BRC. And then I 740 00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.360 went through a scout swimmer course and then I went 741 00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:45.199 to tor Or to MCD and that was another like 742 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:47.239 I feel like I got hazed, like for the entire 743 00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:50.519 first part any time I got to airborne school was 744 00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:53.800 a break two and a half minutes of fun crammed 745 00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:57.000 into three weeks. So dive school is that all on 746 00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:00.679 the rebreathers. You start off in scuba, okay phase of scuba. 747 00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:04.519 It's a lot like Safuo And I actually later uh 748 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:11.800 went to Safuo to participate in diver qualification and dive 749 00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:14.840 supervisor course with them, which is a lot more gentlemanly 750 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.159 than you know, being a student. So I've been to 751 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:20.920 Key West as well and Flaming Key there. But yeah, 752 00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:24.239 dive school is your first phase is scuba and then 753 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:27.559 after that you go into under just a rebreather and 754 00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:29.440 there's a lot of a lot of night navigation, a 755 00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:30.840 lot of underwater navigation. 756 00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.519 And so they like to describe for folks out there 757 00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:36.239 who maybe aren't familiar, I mean, the the concept here 758 00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:40.239 as you guys being marine recoll marine recon, You're going 759 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:43.199 to go and be the scouts for the main marine element. 760 00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:44.920 You're gonna swim up to the shore and do the 761 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:47.360 hydrographical surveys and all that other kind of stuff. 762 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:50.719 Yep, you could do that by surface if you if 763 00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:52.719 you wanted to, you know, as one of the options 764 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:56.159 could be to do it subsurface clandestine. Certainly rebreather allows 765 00:37:56.199 --> 00:37:59.559 you to do that. Honestly, the Seals have a pretty 766 00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:01.920 good with with their stvs and a lot of the 767 00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:04.760 profiles that they do. They're they're very capable. They can 768 00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:07.039 do harbor recons and things in ways that the Marine 769 00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:09.400 Corps can't. But you can't be good everywhere, and the 770 00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:15.280 Marine Corps was very good in applying the recon forces 771 00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:18.440 against or the recon units against their forces and force mission. 772 00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:23.360 And so a good example would be if you're doing 773 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:25.960 an assault and it was going to be an amphibious assault, 774 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:28.840 but you still needed to have depth force. Recon could 775 00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:33.480 jump in well behind and establish observation posts, maybe even 776 00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:37.079 me calling in artillery or naval naval gunfire or air 777 00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:42.880 on an approaching force, while at the simultaneous to them 778 00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:48.440 being inserted, you'd have amphibious amphibious reconnaissance going in and 779 00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:51.679 setting up clearing. The not so much clearing it makes 780 00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:54.400 it sound like you're using engineers or something like that, 781 00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:56.239 but just doing the surveys and making sure that you 782 00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:59.800 know you can actually land and establish a bridgehead. But 783 00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:01.840 you know, that's a that's a very complex mission. It's 784 00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:04.119 a war type mission, and we did we didn't do that, 785 00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:07.000 and certainly as we moved into the later you know, 786 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:08.360 the early part of the g WATT and then as 787 00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:12.119 it progressed, I think we lost a lot of that 788 00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:17.239 reconnaissance cape of patrol. Yeah, that patrolling is, in my opinion, 789 00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:19.000 is one of the baselines that you know, if your 790 00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:20.840 unit can patrol well, then you can you can do 791 00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:22.960 any because of the principle applied. 792 00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:26.599 So when you're in your recompleatoon, this is now we're 793 00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:27.880 like late nineteen nineties. 794 00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:30.559 I'm guessing I got there in August at two thousand, 795 00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:33.280 okay two thousand and I went through the training and 796 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:37.440 we did a deployment. That's why I love my politic 797 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:41.440 because like, we're going to do it Beatian deployment to Hawaii, 798 00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:48.360 because you can learn and get more out of training 799 00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:51.199 and good conditions than you will in bad because we 800 00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:52.800 expect you to be able to do it in bad conditions, 801 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:54.599 which is a complete difference from when I was training 802 00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:56.679 with the British Sayes who were like, no, the weather 803 00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:58.360 needs worse. Can we get it worse than this? Like that, 804 00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:01.000 now we'll go do it be us the same way. Oh, 805 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:03.039 it's not snowing in the North Sea, Well let's just 806 00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:04.559 wait for it to get really shitty and then we 807 00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:07.440 can get out there. I'm like, why do you guys 808 00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:09.199 do this to yourself? It's like, because when else, like 809 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:10.679 this is when it's going to happen. Guy, And they 810 00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:14.039 were right, they were like, yeah, you know. I talked 811 00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:17.760 to a Falkland Islands veteran in parachute regimen who had 812 00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:21.320 been in the Sas and he said that his is 813 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.159 fighting in the Falklands. While it was really as a 814 00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:26.360 light infantry wars were really really challenging. He's like, we 815 00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:28.679 trained so hard that when we got there it was 816 00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:30.000 just sort of like, all right, well we're just used 817 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:31.760 to this and there's something to be said for hard training. 818 00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:35.039 And so I say, I'm talking about two sides of 819 00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:36.880 my mouth. Because we went to Ali. We had a 820 00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:39.400 great time, but at the same time, it was a 821 00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:42.360 focus on developing individual skills right right. It was really 822 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:44.679 more like, hey, let's be good divers now, and then 823 00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:46.239 if you're good divers here we can take you into 824 00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:47.880 the shitty weather instead of let's just throw you into 825 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:49.880 really bad conditions and then see what happens, because there 826 00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:53.119 are units who overstep that before and people get hurt. Sure, 827 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:55.880 so he had he had a good idea for incremental training. 828 00:40:56.119 --> 00:40:58.679 And that's so that's March of two thousand and one, 829 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:01.840 and nine to eleven is not even looming, Like we 830 00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:09.000 don't even know what's coming. And my platoon was wasn't 831 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:11.559 even earmark yet to like be on another MEW. So 832 00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:13.360 I probably wasn't going to be able to take my 833 00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:17.000 platoon out on a deployment had nine to eleven not occurred. 834 00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:21.840 I was gonna just kind of do my time at 835 00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:24.559 my fleet time. And at that point in time, I 836 00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:27.639 was just like, well, I'm gonna start looking revisit the marshals, 837 00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:29.159 I'm gonna go back to the fl This is my 838 00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:30.960 this has been my plan. This is what I'm gonna do. 839 00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:34.519 And so where were you and the guys at when 840 00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:35.960 nine to eleven happened. 841 00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:45.719 I had come up with this. I'd come up with 842 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:50.480 this plan to take my platoon to Switzerland to participate 843 00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:56.559 in Swiss Raid Commando, which is the Special Operations competition 844 00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:01.960 around Burn, Switzerland, and like I said, there's nothing going on. 845 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.000 So we were like, we we're gonna jump into Lake Burn 846 00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:09.920 water jump into Lake Burn, and then we're gonna do this. 847 00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:13.519 We're gonna you know, we got invitations, we had country clearances, 848 00:42:13.559 --> 00:42:15.679 I had transportation that put together. 849 00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:17.639 And it is kind of rare for the Swiss to 850 00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:20.639 do that kind of cross training because of neutrality, you know, 851 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:22.480 it does it is a sensitive issue. 852 00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:26.159 Well, other Marines had done it, and so we were like, well, 853 00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:28.119 I was like, well, when's the last time we sent 854 00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:29.920 a team there, Like, oh, it's been a few years. Like, well, 855 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.599 let's do it. I mean got so I went. I 856 00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:34.639 went briefed the guy named James Conway, who was the 857 00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:41.119 first Marine Division commander later became the commandant, and I said, hey, 858 00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:42.679 so this is what I'm gonna do, and he said, right, okay, 859 00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:45.920 you're approved. I hope you represent and have a great time. 860 00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:51.360 That was September the ninth, So we're like literally lining 861 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:55.280 up and getting everything going. And then uh my wife 862 00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:59.320 woke me up and said you need to come you 863 00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:04.840 come see this, and uh get a little motional because 864 00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:06.400 I I went. I went to World Trade Center today 865 00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:09.639 to visit, to visit a friend or to see a 866 00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:14.440 friend of mine. Put my my my mother in law's 867 00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:21.199 cousin was killed. Oh I'm not sorry. Well and there 868 00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:23.079 are family members who are working there who got out, 869 00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:26.159 so we you know, John Crow, his name is there. 870 00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:27.639 So I went and went and saw his name and went, 871 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:31.480 you know, just it was a huge you know I 872 00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:35.840 did people forget how absolutely terrifying and confusing that time. Yes, 873 00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:37.960 and it's not just a big hole in the ground 874 00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:39.639 right when you go there, it's not. I mean World 875 00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:41.760 one World Trade Center still looks amazing as you as 876 00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:45.880 you walk by it. But the cost today today going 877 00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:49.000 down there was like visiting a battlefield. I mean, it 878 00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:53.280 really is hollow ground, right, And so I I come 879 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:55.480 in and I'm watching this everything like we all did, 880 00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:57.480 unfold on TV. And at that point in time, I 881 00:43:57.480 --> 00:43:58.880 was like, yeah, well, just we're not going to Switzerland, 882 00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:01.599 like nobody knew what was going to happen. But then 883 00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:03.239 the phones were ringing, like hey, you need to come in. 884 00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:06.559 We're we're in def kond. We're drawing what we're drawing weapons. 885 00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:09.920 We don't know what, you know it was, it was 886 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:11.800 it was a hairy time, it's. 887 00:44:11.719 --> 00:44:13.559 You know, I yeah, I hate to sound like an 888 00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:16.039 old man or something like that, but you're absolutely right 889 00:44:16.119 --> 00:44:20.119 that people young people today they don't understand what that was. 890 00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:20.280 Like. 891 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:22.239 I was a senior in high school when it happened, 892 00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.400 and I mean people were fucking afraid. 893 00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:30.159 There was like a palpable fear in the air. And 894 00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:39.039 this is the this is the thing is that everyone 895 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.440 looked to our nation's leadership and said, what are we 896 00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:48.639 gonna do into our military? And that's who the next 897 00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:54.519 look was like. And and you know, Iraq wasn't actually 898 00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:56.519 on the docket at that point in time. It was 899 00:44:56.519 --> 00:45:00.400 all Afghanistan. We had MEWS, they were out and and 900 00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:03.199 the next thing we know, one of our recomplatoons is 901 00:45:03.239 --> 00:45:06.719 on the ground in Afghanistan. There's raids happening, like there's 902 00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:08.599 all kinds of shit, and everybody's like, it is on, 903 00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:11.119 it is on. Yeah. My buddy Nate Fick, who wrote 904 00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:13.119 One Bull a little way, I've known him, you know, twenty 905 00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.639 so odd years. He was over there as an infantry 906 00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:17.920 guy and just the stuff that he was involved in, 907 00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:22.880 just as an infantry platoon commander, you know, as these 908 00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:25.000 guys start remember, but I said, we didn't have any combat, 909 00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:28.079 he said in his book, and we made combat. We 910 00:45:28.119 --> 00:45:30.199 became combat vets overnight, and all of a sudden we 911 00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:32.760 had a lot of combat vets and they just kept 912 00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:35.280 growing from there. But yeah, sitting back in the States, 913 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:36.800 we didn't know what was gonna happen, et cetera. 914 00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:41.039 So and I mean speaking to the fear that you're 915 00:45:41.079 --> 00:45:44.360 like your unit's strong weapons and they're probably putting demo 916 00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:47.679 together and everything. Like the units did that, as I understand, 917 00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:49.679 a lot of it was on their own volition. Yes, 918 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:52.400 they didn't get ordered. They were like just preparing, like 919 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:53.800 they knew something was gonna come. 920 00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:56.199 The intel shop all of a sudden had a lot 921 00:45:56.199 --> 00:46:02.320 of work and we're like, you know, having zipper and 922 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:08.519 like you know, as you know high side stuff. There 923 00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:09.960 weren't a lot of act not like it is now 924 00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:11.800 where you would get screened and you did just sort 925 00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:15.440 of the way you work, never mind top secret. So 926 00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.679 it was sort of like, hey, you guys need to 927 00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:20.119 get to work and start mining things. You need to 928 00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:21.960 make what networks do We had, like we didn't have 929 00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:24.800 the relationships that we have now between agencies, particularly at 930 00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:27.559 the national level. All this stuff was was brand new. 931 00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:30.360 We literally were just grabbing maps of Afghanistan and putting 932 00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:31.519 them up on the wall and me like, okay, but 933 00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:33.880 we got a little tax in them. You had the 934 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:36.880 bear went over the mountain, you know, Dave Grawl is 935 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:39.320 his name. We had a few guys come in and 936 00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:43.280 give PMS on their time, having you know, worked in 937 00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.159 Afghanistan in the eighties. It was the only end. It 938 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:50.280 was the only information we had, and so we just 939 00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:51.960 didn't know. And so then from there we just went 940 00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:53.719 into this crazy training cycle. We were out in the 941 00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:57.639 desert and honing our skills with thehtory of the patrolling 942 00:46:57.639 --> 00:46:59.360 foot patrolling, how do you get teams in and out, 943 00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:02.800 you know, immediate actions drills. The training then became very 944 00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:05.719 very real. We're no longer doing this, you're vacation. You're 945 00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:08.599 getting ready for a real real world issue. Absolutely. Yeah. 946 00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:12.559 And so I was there for all of two thousand 947 00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:14.000 and one. As we went in two thousand and two, 948 00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:18.199 I was looking to try and stay and they don't 949 00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:19.840 have what's called stop loss, which would keep you in 950 00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:24.199 your unit, and I missed the push to Iraqa's I 951 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:27.559 got orders to go to the in Fabius reconnaissance school 952 00:47:27.559 --> 00:47:29.599 to become the EXO, which I did want to stay 953 00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:31.840 in Recon. I did want to be a part of it. 954 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:34.360 It beat going on recruiting or something like that. But 955 00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:38.159 I was really frustrated, so I missed the Generation Killed deployment. 956 00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:40.000 I've known many of the guys who were in Generation Killed. 957 00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:43.239 Rudi Reez dat Fake was a platoon commander, the guy 958 00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:46.079 they called the iceman, all the Bride Colvert, all these 959 00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:49.639 guys were people I knew. And you know, I remember 960 00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:51.440 the Patun commander coming in and took over my platoon. 961 00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:52.000 I just like. 962 00:47:53.719 --> 00:47:55.599 I told you, it was late Jack, late to a lot. 963 00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:59.639 So they went and they deployed. And I remember we 964 00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:04.760 were training in Key West in March of three and uh, 965 00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:06.800 we're out for a couple of beers and all of 966 00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:08.800 a sudden, CNN fleshed on and we're in the invasion 967 00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:09.719 and all of us we're like, can we have like 968 00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:11.920 twenty beers please, because like, yeah, yeah, we're a bunch 969 00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:12.760 of Recon guys and we're not. 970 00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:17.800 Even if you sleepot at night, you know just how 971 00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:20.519 disruptive it can be. Whether you're having trouble falling asleep, 972 00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:22.119 you're waking up sweating in the middle of the night, 973 00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:25.599 or all the above. That's where Ghostbed can help. As 974 00:48:25.599 --> 00:48:28.360 the makers the coolest beds in the world. 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So thanks to ghost bed and check them out. 1000 00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:46.960 So, yeah, you it's three and you haven't gotten to 1001 00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:48.360 Afghanistan or racket yet. 1002 00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:50.400 I didn't do anything yet. Nope, Man, it would be 1003 00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:54.480 it would be a while. Yeah, that's amazingly because I 1004 00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:57.679 was at ARS, which is the west the East coast 1005 00:49:57.760 --> 00:49:59.639 version of VRC on the West coast. Now they can 1006 00:49:59.639 --> 00:50:02.079 sol it ad it all out in the West Coast 1007 00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:04.960 at sl Y, which is better. I mean, they've got 1008 00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:08.079 better access, better through through put. You did two schools 1009 00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:10.639 at the time, was meant to feed like small requirements 1010 00:50:11.559 --> 00:50:14.320 on each coast. But did you have a fear like that, 1011 00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:15.920 like a real fear that you were going to miss 1012 00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:19.239 the war? Of course? Yeah, I mean I now was 1013 00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:21.960 no longer looking to become a federal law enforcement officer, 1014 00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:24.320 like I'm going to stay in. Yeah, this is this 1015 00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:25.880 is an opportunity you want, you want to be able 1016 00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:29.039 to make some ass. But I was in this training 1017 00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:32.639 command and we're training guys, and you know, the irony 1018 00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:35.639 is that we've got a cadre of dudes who have 1019 00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:38.400 operational experience and maybe one or two had done some 1020 00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:44.719 combat Sierra Leone or Bosnia doing like Neo's Neo type stuff, 1021 00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:47.840 protective stuff. The guys in Bosnia did some actual reconnaissance 1022 00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:51.920 missions and and you know had it was real world 1023 00:50:52.239 --> 00:50:54.400 kind of hairiness that they were doing. Not talking direct action, 1024 00:50:54.480 --> 00:51:00.119 but they were involved in some things. And uh, I 1025 00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:02.239 I had. I had taken over from from a guy 1026 00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:08.719 named Doug Zambec. Yes, yes, so he's his own he's 1027 00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:11.440 his own legend. We can talk about that. He was 1028 00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:13.320 a very good friend of mine, was a very good 1029 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:16.840 friend of mine. So I'd taken over from him, and 1030 00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:19.360 he was like, hey, man, you're entrusted with training these marines. 1031 00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:21.039 I know that because because he was going to go 1032 00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:25.639 to he'd got orders to what's called the now the 1033 00:51:25.639 --> 00:51:28.639 Expedition of Warfare School at the time Amphibius Warfare School, 1034 00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:31.000 which is a captain's level career course for the Marine 1035 00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:32.119 Corps and then from there he was going to take 1036 00:51:32.119 --> 00:51:33.639 an infantry company. He was like, look, I know that 1037 00:51:33.679 --> 00:51:36.159 this is frustrating for you, but you're in charge of 1038 00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:38.559 something very important and you need to do that job 1039 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:41.039 the best that you can, which is a huge leadership. 1040 00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:44.480 And he was right. But we're cadre of guys who 1041 00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:47.599 don't have a lot of experience. And then we start 1042 00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:50.320 getting dudes who were in infantry in nazarea. We get 1043 00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:54.480 guys who are part of like really legitimate ground combat 1044 00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:57.840 operations in both Afghanistan and irakas in richment, and now 1045 00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:01.119 they're coming in and we're teaching them how it's gonna be. Yeah, 1046 00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:03.199 that doesn't go over. Yeah, we have a lot of credibility. 1047 00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:05.639 So eventually we started getting some cadre that actually did 1048 00:52:05.639 --> 00:52:08.960 have combat experience. A couple of guys, you've been shot, like, 1049 00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:11.000 so they started I started lending it. 1050 00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:13.480 The entire military kind of had that problem around that 1051 00:52:13.519 --> 00:52:16.719 time frame, like three oh four, you know, ranger school, 1052 00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:20.119 whatever it was that you had instructors who nothing wrong 1053 00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:23.119 or against them at all, but they're suddenly having like 1054 00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:26.840 range of battalion privates with like three combat deployments showing. 1055 00:52:26.679 --> 00:52:31.400 Up at their school when I I went to I 1056 00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:34.519 went to Airborne School in December of two thousand and two, 1057 00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:38.719 and there were ranger privates walking around with mustards. Yes, 1058 00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:42.639 because they jumped into Rhino yep with with with Kagea 1059 00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:44.920 and so you know, I haven't even got a jump 1060 00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:47.079 yet and these guys are you know, get out of 1061 00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:47.599 the way. 1062 00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:50.960 I knew a couple of guys that had two mustard stains. Yeah, yeah, 1063 00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:52.360 from Iraq and Afghanistan. 1064 00:52:52.440 --> 00:52:55.199 It's wild. Well, I remember asking when it was Back 1065 00:52:55.239 --> 00:52:56.639 when I was joining the military. I went to maps 1066 00:52:56.679 --> 00:52:59.239 and they put you through the you know, the screening, 1067 00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:00.920 and one of the medicals mean, there was an Army 1068 00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:03.320 medic and he he had he had jumped in Panama 1069 00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:06.840 Ranger to combat Ranger scroll and then he had a 1070 00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:10.199 you know, muster stained on his and I just handedly asked, 1071 00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:12.199 how many jumps do you have? And he goes one 1072 00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:20.800 that matters fair. Oh yeah. So you know that just 1073 00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:23.119 being in that environment because you're in this tough guy club, 1074 00:53:23.119 --> 00:53:25.000 but you you're not really a tough guy, and you're 1075 00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:28.159 you're you you want that and it was it was 1076 00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:31.320 a little bit of a self consciousness, a little bit 1077 00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:33.960 of stuma, and so yeah, I did that from three 1078 00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:40.000 to five, and then I very much wanted to I 1079 00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:42.960 wanted to lead recon marines. I could have gone and 1080 00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:44.880 become a company commander, because that's what I was an 1081 00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:48.280 infantry officer. Doug was doing that and very successful with that. 1082 00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:50.880 Uh they don't call him a lion of Falsiah for 1083 00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:56.079 no reason. And uh, I said, you know what, I'm 1084 00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:59.239 going to ask to go to Second Force and become 1085 00:53:59.239 --> 00:54:02.360 a platun commander there and and. 1086 00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:05.519 So that that would be your third platoon at that point. Right, 1087 00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:07.159 is that normal or abnormal? 1088 00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:09.480 No, that would be very abnormal. In fact, taking a 1089 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:15.119 platoon as a captain was to career suicide. And my 1090 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:18.039 my monitor, to my my detailer even told me I 1091 00:54:18.039 --> 00:54:20.280 had to sign a He said, I'll cut your orders 1092 00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:22.199 there if that's you want to go. I got plenty 1093 00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:24.440 of people that need company command time. So if that's 1094 00:54:24.440 --> 00:54:25.840 what you want to do, and they've got a job 1095 00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:27.880 for you. I drove down there and interviewed with the 1096 00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:29.679 commander and got a stamp, and then I came back 1097 00:54:29.719 --> 00:54:32.039 that day. I was like, right, so you got to 1098 00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:33.679 make your own luck, right, you got to chase it down. 1099 00:54:33.719 --> 00:54:37.000 But if they didn't give it to me, I don't 1100 00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:38.559 know what, Like, that's the direction I want to go, 1101 00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:40.199 that's what you want to do. Yeah yeah, but that 1102 00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:43.159 is that them allowing me to do that, And that 1103 00:54:43.159 --> 00:54:45.000 decision is what set the rest of my career because 1104 00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:46.840 I was told, like your careers over well, they didn't 1105 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:49.480 know what things were going to look like. So you 1106 00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:53.280 go to force as a captain, take a platoon. Now, 1107 00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:55.679 I've trained guys at airs who've now been to combat 1108 00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:58.519 and come back and now they're like, oh, great, asshole, 1109 00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:00.000 you know, welcome. 1110 00:55:00.280 --> 00:55:03.800 Now we're into like five six all right, So what's 1111 00:55:03.800 --> 00:55:04.920 it like landing at force? 1112 00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:07.599 It is like the best way I could equate it 1113 00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:09.639 is if you saw a band of brothers. It would 1114 00:55:09.679 --> 00:55:11.239 be like checking into the one hundred and first after 1115 00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:15.360 they got back from Normandy Salty deal. Oh my god, 1116 00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:21.639 platoon sergeant, everybody, I couldn't well, I had. You know, 1117 00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:22.920 you still have to be a leader, you still have 1118 00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:25.159 to be there, but you yeah, you get this. It's 1119 00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:26.639 not even a chip on your shoulder. You just have 1120 00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:28.519 to try and figure out how to navigate, and you 1121 00:55:28.599 --> 00:55:31.239 have to earn the respect. You have to earn and 1122 00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:33.079 so go on all the way back to my first 1123 00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:34.760 infantry unit. I kind of was like, well, I'm gonna 1124 00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:36.880 start just like that. They all get a fair shake. 1125 00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:38.639 Hopefully they'll give me one two. I already had a 1126 00:55:38.679 --> 00:55:41.960 reputation within the recon community for good or for ill, 1127 00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:47.159 and so I had to kind of almost I had 1128 00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:50.119 to humble myself. My friend, my friend Roger Sparks, who 1129 00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:53.239 does some really good veterans work. He's out of Alaska. 1130 00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:54.920 He was a recon guy and then went to pj's 1131 00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:58.039 and a Silver Star recipient, a really really great guy. Uh. 1132 00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:02.079 When I was the first recon, he's one of my 1133 00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:05.360 team leaders, and he's like there's a time in everyone's 1134 00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:09.199 career where you come legit where everybody's just like okay, 1135 00:56:09.199 --> 00:56:14.719 you've you've got what it takes, and uh, never forget that, 1136 00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:16.639 Like when you get to these units, you've got to 1137 00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:18.639 figure out how did how did you go about that? 1138 00:56:18.760 --> 00:56:20.840 How did you build rapport with these guys and kind 1139 00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:24.000 of like get that nod or handshake that like yeah, okay, 1140 00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:25.320 this sky will work well. 1141 00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:27.639 I had a lot of talented n CEOs. Obviously, their 1142 00:56:27.639 --> 00:56:32.960 combat their combat experience was quite significant by that point, 1143 00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:35.880 because they've done Afghanistan, some of them been Afghanistan and Iraq, 1144 00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:40.519 and they were seasoned, and so I just said, all right. 1145 00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:44.360 I sat down with the petting commander and or as 1146 00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:46.920 as their platon commander, and I said, all right, how 1147 00:56:46.920 --> 00:56:49.320 are we going to make this unit work? I'm here 1148 00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:52.519 to lead it. I mean, you saw at their guidance, yeah, 1149 00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:53.639 and I don't. But I don't have to take my 1150 00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:57.400 shoes off and say I'm in charge, just like people 1151 00:56:57.400 --> 00:57:00.039 already know that. But that's not what I'm here to do. 1152 00:57:00.199 --> 00:57:01.760 And then I also went to other platoon commanders who 1153 00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:03.880 had been involved in that for a while and said, hey, man, 1154 00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:07.280 I'm having this is a challenge. I'm having. This is hard. 1155 00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:10.400 What do I What do I do? You know? These people? 1156 00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:14.199 What do I say? And it's not so much looking 1157 00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:19.840 for validation and you're not looking for and would tell 1158 00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:21.039 you what to do. It's just sort of like, hey, 1159 00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:23.800 give me some GID And that's a hard thing to 1160 00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:28.519 grab hold of. And it's hard to, like I said, 1161 00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:30.519 to humble yourself. It's hard to kind of say, okay, 1162 00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:31.719 this is what I don't know. And there was a 1163 00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:32.800 lot of stuff I didn't know, and there was a 1164 00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:34.039 lot of stuff that I could offer, and I said, 1165 00:57:34.039 --> 00:57:36.440 all right, we'll go to figure out that blend. And 1166 00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:38.559 so when I took them out on a patrolling exercise, 1167 00:57:38.599 --> 00:57:40.519 they were like, what is he doing? But I did 1168 00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:42.280 it for very specific reason to watch and see how 1169 00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:43.920 these guys work and what do they do, and how 1170 00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:47.079 do they move at night and what do they And 1171 00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:49.360 then we got the kegaber and figured out the personality. 1172 00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:53.119 My dad's legacy was right on what's going on? But no, 1173 00:57:53.239 --> 00:57:53.840 that's interesting. 1174 00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:55.679 I mean, you took them out on a training exercise, 1175 00:57:55.719 --> 00:57:58.079 and it really is for you to observe them and 1176 00:57:58.079 --> 00:57:59.960 to see how they operate so that you can kind 1177 00:57:59.960 --> 00:58:01.440 of them mold yourself. 1178 00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:05.320 Around them, knowing they were also watching me. Yeah, so 1179 00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:10.639 you can't be first in everything you get me. You 1180 00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:15.119 wish you could, You wish you were great across all areas, and. 1181 00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:19.199 You know, but these guys are hard chargers. Yeah yeah, 1182 00:58:19.239 --> 00:58:22.119 and you can't. You can't fool the audience. You can't 1183 00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:22.840 feel the audience. 1184 00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:24.559 Like you got to give him credit right in the 1185 00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:28.679 book and the movie or whatever, and so yeah, and 1186 00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:30.559 then after a while we got to know each other 1187 00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:33.559 and we were getting ready actually to deploy to Iraq 1188 00:58:33.880 --> 00:58:35.599 as part of them, you, because that's what it was 1189 00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:38.079 at the time. And then Donald Rumsfeld came down and said, 1190 00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:42.679 we're standing at Marsak and Brincorps figured it out and 1191 00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:44.039 I was in the right place at the right time 1192 00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:45.440 to be a plane co owner of Marsac when. 1193 00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:49.320 They wow tell us about how that came about. Because 1194 00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:52.159 one of the funnest stories about this that I heard 1195 00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:54.360 we had an enlisted guy and I'm sorry, I can't 1196 00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:57.079 remember his name, He's an enlisted Marine, and he said 1197 00:58:57.079 --> 00:58:59.920 that they came he was in ricon or Force, came 1198 00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:03.800 back from a training exercise and like the supply guy 1199 00:59:03.880 --> 00:59:06.639 or something, met them in the parking lot and was like, yeah, 1200 00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:10.159 you guys aren't reconn anymore. You're something called uh mansock 1201 00:59:10.519 --> 00:59:14.960 I think it is, does Pete Perry? And everyone was 1202 00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:15.760 just like what. 1203 00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:17.480 I So like, I said, I was supposed to go 1204 00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:19.400 on this MEW in October, and I had already gone 1205 00:59:19.400 --> 00:59:21.119 to meet with the new commander, and I'd also met 1206 00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:24.039 with the with the Infantry Battalion commander. Even though we 1207 00:59:24.039 --> 00:59:25.239 were forced, we knew that we were going to do 1208 00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:29.920 a lot of reconnaissance linked up with second recon which 1209 00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:32.639 is another you know, you have the same second force 1210 00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:34.880 just like first force, and then you had recombatalions. So 1211 00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:36.480 we were trying to come up with, like how do 1212 00:59:36.519 --> 00:59:38.960 we consolidate all the reconnaissance forces, which they've now they've 1213 00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:40.800 now done as part of the Marine Corps. 1214 00:59:41.239 --> 00:59:44.719 Okay, so it's like under a Marine Corps Special warfare kind. 1215 00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:49.639 Of yeah, and we can go into the back and 1216 00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:51.519 forth of who got this banded win and then who 1217 00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:54.239 got reactive. It is, you know, the Marine Corps, the 1218 00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:56.480 relearning organization. We know, we we learn, and then we 1219 00:59:56.599 --> 00:59:57.960 learn a lot more and then we you know, no 1220 00:59:57.960 --> 00:59:59.800 one ever accused us over two hundred fifty years. It's 1221 00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:03.119 two hundred fifty year anniversary, unimpeded by progress. No one 1222 01:00:03.119 --> 01:00:05.239 ever accused us of being particularly bright, but we dan 1223 01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:10.000 we're hard, right, Like, So I was actually up in 1224 01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:16.039 Quantico at the UH Breacher's course. I got a I 1225 01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:18.440 got a slot as an officer, a very rare one 1226 01:00:18.599 --> 01:00:21.079 UH to go to the dynamic entry you know, explosive 1227 01:00:21.079 --> 01:00:24.760 breaching course. So I am a preacher or was. Now 1228 01:00:24.800 --> 01:00:26.719 their preachers are going to suck this guy, like, but 1229 01:00:26.760 --> 01:00:28.840 it's true. I was up there at the course and 1230 01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:30.719 I got a call and they were like, hey man, 1231 01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:33.760 you're not going to be on the mew. We don't 1232 01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:35.960 know what's going to happen, but we Marsocks just stood 1233 01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:41.559 up and we're all now in marsok. And so when 1234 01:00:41.599 --> 01:00:45.960 you get back, just stand by. So we didn't know 1235 01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:47.519 what it was going to look like. We know that 1236 01:00:47.559 --> 01:00:49.920 we were now falling under SOCOM. But they brought in 1237 01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:55.239 auditors to our arms rooms, our supply and to your 1238 01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:56.559 point of like, we didn't have any gear, We didn't 1239 01:00:56.519 --> 01:00:57.679 have anything that this is where we're working on a 1240 01:00:57.719 --> 01:01:01.639 shoe stream budget. SOCOM came in and looked at our 1241 01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:03.119 weapons and looked at all of our stuff, and we're like, 1242 01:01:03.159 --> 01:01:06.000 how have you guys been doing this? You're so poor. 1243 01:01:06.079 --> 01:01:08.639 You actually don't know how poor you are, like, and. 1244 01:01:08.559 --> 01:01:11.760 They were concerned about like interoperability and things like that. 1245 01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:14.639 Commonality of gear, Like we didn't have PVS fifteen's, you know, 1246 01:01:14.679 --> 01:01:16.599 the two barrels. We were still running around with a 1247 01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:18.440 single Some guys had them as they were starting to 1248 01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:20.280 come in. But I'm not saying we were using the 1249 01:01:20.280 --> 01:01:22.599 car fifteen's, but you know, we basically am four is 1250 01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:25.840 that kind of thing. And it was just like, okay, 1251 01:01:26.079 --> 01:01:29.159 here's some money, like go get you go buy yourself 1252 01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:33.360 some news like Walmart or yeah, going to five eleven 1253 01:01:33.400 --> 01:01:35.719 and hook yourself up like whatever you want. Your prime 1254 01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:37.960 precision was brand new, like get yourself one hundred pairs 1255 01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:40.960 of Cavis for all your guys, like what and if 1256 01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:42.880 you need more, come see us, Like it's no problem, 1257 01:01:42.920 --> 01:01:44.559 Like we got this crazy g WoT money. And they 1258 01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:47.000 were like all right, So we start getting more gear, 1259 01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:49.519 we start getting better equipment, we start, you know, really 1260 01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:51.719 you know, getting ourselves outfitted. And that's what we were 1261 01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:54.079 able to do in those interim years. But when we 1262 01:01:54.079 --> 01:01:57.519 weren't deploying was build our forces up. And the best 1263 01:01:57.519 --> 01:01:59.559 part about that was the force recompleton that I had 1264 01:01:59.719 --> 01:02:02.239 in here and now was part of We were together 1265 01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:04.199 now for another two years after that, so we had 1266 01:02:04.760 --> 01:02:07.519 incredible unit cohesion, a lot of time together, a lot 1267 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:14.760 of time together. My jump masters like they they knew 1268 01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:16.920 exactly who was who. You know, we all knew what 1269 01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:18.800 skills we had, we had, we had levels of training 1270 01:02:18.800 --> 01:02:20.840 that we'd been to that that hadn't been done because 1271 01:02:20.920 --> 01:02:23.199 we had this opportunity and That's kind of how I 1272 01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:24.119 looked at it. I was like, well, we don't know 1273 01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:25.719 what's going to happen, we can be ready, so let's 1274 01:02:25.760 --> 01:02:28.079 just we're gonna train, and we're gonna train really hard. 1275 01:02:28.480 --> 01:02:30.960 So yeah, talk to us through that a little bit. 1276 01:02:31.000 --> 01:02:33.039 You know, after you guys went down and bought all 1277 01:02:33.079 --> 01:02:36.800 of your oak lea's and beltrow and everything that you needed. 1278 01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:38.199 Oh, to be fair, a lot of guys were already 1279 01:02:38.239 --> 01:02:41.159 leaning into that. They already cleaned out the places in 1280 01:02:41.239 --> 01:02:42.800 town and that was legal. Now it was legal. 1281 01:02:43.639 --> 01:02:46.519 How did you begin, like standing up? I assume you 1282 01:02:46.559 --> 01:02:48.760 know you mentioned auditors and so forth. There must have 1283 01:02:48.760 --> 01:02:50.880 been people coming down and you had like some benchmarks 1284 01:02:50.920 --> 01:02:53.719 you had to meet to be quote unquote qualifying soft. 1285 01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:56.039 Yeah, that all came out of so common. In fact, 1286 01:02:56.079 --> 01:02:58.760 the Army did a lot of evaluation on us, particularly 1287 01:02:59.119 --> 01:03:02.079 we were direct action focused at that point in time. Particularly, 1288 01:03:02.159 --> 01:03:03.960 so there were people from SIFT, there were people from 1289 01:03:04.199 --> 01:03:08.199 from CAG and they were they were curious like what 1290 01:03:08.199 --> 01:03:09.920 do these how do these guys train? What do they do? 1291 01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:13.119 We invested in marksmanship training on a on a huge level. 1292 01:03:13.119 --> 01:03:17.480 We invested in uh our tactics. We revitalized how we 1293 01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:21.760 did stuff because Delta had found that five guys attacking 1294 01:03:21.800 --> 01:03:24.639 the people that the paper people army was not really 1295 01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:27.000 effective and dudes were getting shot and it was so 1296 01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:30.920 we we had to relearn a bunch of things. Aggression 1297 01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:32.760 helps in those fights, but you also have to be 1298 01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:35.599 a thinker, and like the British, you know, the British say, 1299 01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:38.199 you know, you take your time, but hurry, you know, 1300 01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:40.599 be careful, but get it done. Be deliberate. Yeah, and 1301 01:03:40.679 --> 01:03:43.360 you know, if you're in, you're in. But like, just 1302 01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:47.519 so we had to change things immensely in the way 1303 01:03:47.559 --> 01:03:49.480 that we trained and the way that we approached stuff. 1304 01:03:49.480 --> 01:03:51.360 And and uh, that was a lot of learning as well. 1305 01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:57.039 I mean, you guys had come back from Iraq with 1306 01:03:57.559 --> 01:04:00.320 hum v's that they had gotten the CBS to old 1307 01:04:00.719 --> 01:04:02.719 armor plate on, and they're like, yeah, there's got to 1308 01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:05.000 be a better way to fight than this. And so 1309 01:04:05.920 --> 01:04:08.760 they designed the gm V, the ground Mobility vehicle that 1310 01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:12.199 we all started. You know, they went to letter Kenny 1311 01:04:12.239 --> 01:04:13.920 Arsenal and said, Okay, we want to design a vehicle 1312 01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:16.039 that works. So from the ground up it was Taylor 1313 01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:20.559 built for soft use. That's why they had the software GMV, 1314 01:04:21.159 --> 01:04:22.199 the turret and all this thing. 1315 01:04:22.559 --> 01:04:26.639 So we have to not preface this but at least 1316 01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:30.000 explain to the viewers to kind of like dovetail this. 1317 01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:33.280 We had Fred Galvin on the show a few years back. 1318 01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:35.719 We have his book right, A Few Bad Men. Rather, 1319 01:04:38.199 --> 01:04:40.360 you know, you guys can ken and should go back 1320 01:04:40.360 --> 01:04:43.440 and watch his interview and you can that first MARSK 1321 01:04:43.519 --> 01:04:46.159 deployment sounded pretty hillacious for those guys and what they 1322 01:04:46.159 --> 01:04:49.719 went through. And to be fair, I was not there, right, Yes, 1323 01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:52.800 That's what I'm leading up to here, is that generation kill. 1324 01:04:52.840 --> 01:04:55.199 I was not there, so they makes for good TV 1325 01:04:55.280 --> 01:04:57.119 in some ways. But I can just say who I know? 1326 01:04:57.159 --> 01:05:00.639 And you were the follow on after foxtrot take us 1327 01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:01.159 through that event? 1328 01:05:01.199 --> 01:05:04.880 Yep, uh so I was. I was the direct Action 1329 01:05:04.920 --> 01:05:09.280 platoon commander. We were paired up with a an infantry 1330 01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:11.880 platoon they call a trailer platoon, which is really not 1331 01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:13.760 a good name. They were. They were they were meant 1332 01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:16.880 to be an augmented security force for US doing a 1333 01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:19.519 direct action mission. So if we were isolating an objective 1334 01:05:19.519 --> 01:05:23.800 and we the assault platoon we're attacking, we're going into 1335 01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:28.239 the assault. The infantry would be an external security they'd 1336 01:05:28.239 --> 01:05:31.000 also come in with heavier weapons, uh, machine guns, that 1337 01:05:31.039 --> 01:05:33.039 kind of thing, and be able to lay down some 1338 01:05:33.320 --> 01:05:36.079 exterior higher firepower. And they were also able. It also 1339 01:05:36.119 --> 01:05:38.679 allowed us to put every assaulter on the objective and 1340 01:05:38.719 --> 01:05:40.639 not have to have a driver like they could take 1341 01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:42.320 care of all that for us. But so another thing 1342 01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:44.440 we invested in with driver training. We went to BSR, 1343 01:05:44.519 --> 01:05:47.199 we did day and night, we did off road, you know, 1344 01:05:47.320 --> 01:05:50.039 old mobility. Yeah, it's a lot of fun to drive 1345 01:05:50.079 --> 01:05:53.199 an old police Caprice Classic, you know, with a big 1346 01:05:53.239 --> 01:05:56.800 block V eight four or five at one hundred miles 1347 01:05:56.800 --> 01:05:58.840 an hour on night vision, goggles down a racetrack Crown 1348 01:05:58.920 --> 01:06:02.760 vic Oh my god, yeah, and just just roll it 1349 01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:06.199 like you got the cop suspense and you it was. 1350 01:06:06.239 --> 01:06:09.880 It was great. So so we invested in that kind 1351 01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:14.280 of stuff because we one of the biggest casualty producers 1352 01:06:14.320 --> 01:06:16.239 was vehicle rollovers and accidents. So they're like, well, then 1353 01:06:16.239 --> 01:06:17.840 shouldn't we learn how to drive? And you got to 1354 01:06:17.920 --> 01:06:19.480 drive in your body armor and your gear, and you 1355 01:06:19.519 --> 01:06:21.440 got to be able to feel the pedals in your boots. 1356 01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:24.079 And so we tried to make his training as realistic 1357 01:06:24.079 --> 01:06:27.920 as possible. And then so the Marsoc Company at that 1358 01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:31.360 time was one hundred and twenty people in that had enablers, communicators, 1359 01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:35.119 it had our company commander was a major, like Fred 1360 01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:36.840 was the company commander for Fox Company. I was in 1361 01:06:36.840 --> 01:06:39.760 Golf Company at that point. And then we were to 1362 01:06:39.760 --> 01:06:43.239 succeed Fred and his guys, and then they got into 1363 01:06:43.639 --> 01:06:46.920 they got into the encounter, the ambush that they were 1364 01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:49.239 involved in, and you can beat about that. You can 1365 01:06:49.280 --> 01:06:53.119 go see different things, and that was a really difficult 1366 01:06:53.119 --> 01:06:59.599 time because people are quick to judge. The facts weren't there. 1367 01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:02.880 I told Fred at the time, I mean we were 1368 01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:04.840 hearing about it. I think I was in the Special 1369 01:07:04.880 --> 01:07:08.800 Forces qualification course and I was hearing weird stories at 1370 01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:11.320 Fort Bragg about this stuff that, as I now know, 1371 01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:14.400 are highly exaggerated. And you know that's not how it 1372 01:07:14.440 --> 01:07:14.880 went down. 1373 01:07:15.679 --> 01:07:18.880 Everybody heard that, yeah, and it and it sat a 1374 01:07:18.920 --> 01:07:23.880 shockwave across I mean, the Rine Corps has never liked 1375 01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:26.719 Marsac and at that point in time. 1376 01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:29.360 It was like a same really, see, this is what 1377 01:07:29.599 --> 01:07:32.000 I told yourself, this is what you get, which is 1378 01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:32.960 totally unfair. 1379 01:07:32.639 --> 01:07:36.159 Because he had man if I had a good freaking group. 1380 01:07:36.880 --> 01:07:39.880 He had a a team of dudes in that unit 1381 01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:41.320 and its direct action. 1382 01:07:41.400 --> 01:07:43.280 Ye it sounds like they have been It took a 1383 01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:45.599 hell of a long time, but they have been vindicated. 1384 01:07:45.199 --> 01:07:51.400 Been adjudicated, yeas, and and and but but but they inger, yes, 1385 01:07:51.519 --> 01:07:54.199 we have some scars. It does. And and it also 1386 01:07:54.239 --> 01:07:56.920 went through so calm the same way because it was like, 1387 01:07:57.840 --> 01:08:01.199 what's going on here? And so there was even more 1388 01:08:01.239 --> 01:08:03.840 scrutiny on us as we were ramping up, you talking 1389 01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:08.079 about certification, where they're like, well, let's take a look 1390 01:08:08.119 --> 01:08:10.360 at like we really need to look at these guys carefully, 1391 01:08:11.039 --> 01:08:13.679 and we're just like, wait a second, you know what 1392 01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:16.239 I do. We're training as hard as anybody else. We've 1393 01:08:16.239 --> 01:08:19.239 already demonstrated week, we demonstrated our capabilities to do we 1394 01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:24.600 need to do. And so coming in after them, you 1395 01:08:24.880 --> 01:08:27.359 know that that was the environment and we just had 1396 01:08:27.359 --> 01:08:28.199 to kind of figure it out. 1397 01:08:28.199 --> 01:08:31.439 Another leadership challenge for you. Have we seen a trend here? Yes, 1398 01:08:33.000 --> 01:08:36.079 we're only in two thousand and seven right now, Well, 1399 01:08:36.079 --> 01:08:38.880 how did you overcome this particular leadership challenge that, like 1400 01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:42.319 MARSK is under the microscope and in the eyes of 1401 01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:44.840 many military leaders like you guys suck. 1402 01:08:45.159 --> 01:08:48.600 You know, it's not fair, but there's a perception out 1403 01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:51.079 there needed to be the best people we could be. 1404 01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:55.800 And I said, we know who we are, we know 1405 01:08:55.840 --> 01:08:59.640 what we can do, and it's up to us. Now, 1406 01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:02.039 this doesn't mean they're a defect, but we don't have 1407 01:09:02.079 --> 01:09:06.119 a lot of room for mistakes. In fact, we don't 1408 01:09:06.399 --> 01:09:09.760 because we're playing with house money now, so we we 1409 01:09:09.760 --> 01:09:17.239 we cannot have a bad bet. And unfortunately some people 1410 01:09:17.279 --> 01:09:23.560 took that to mean really holding back and Fred Fred 1411 01:09:23.560 --> 01:09:25.560 did tell me, He's like, you're going to enter a 1412 01:09:25.600 --> 01:09:29.760 world where people approach things from the point of view 1413 01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:31.239 of like I don't have to do anything right, so 1414 01:09:31.319 --> 01:09:33.920 long as I don't do anything wrong, and they'll wait, 1415 01:09:33.960 --> 01:09:36.720 they'll wait out stuff like that, right, And so that's 1416 01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:40.319 a little metaphor for the entire war. Fred was right. 1417 01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:43.880 I'm not given. I'll give him. Fred and I get along. 1418 01:09:43.920 --> 01:09:46.119 We always have. I haven't talked to him in a while. 1419 01:09:46.199 --> 01:09:51.560 So Fred, if you're watching, men love everybody. But he 1420 01:09:51.199 --> 01:09:55.800 he he really he had to. He he had to 1421 01:09:55.840 --> 01:09:58.640 fight his own fight for his unit's good name, for 1422 01:09:58.640 --> 01:10:02.840 his men's good name, and he didn't give up, like 1423 01:10:02.920 --> 01:10:05.680 he had his people's back. And I think that's what 1424 01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:09.159 my own guys wanted to know as well, like, hey, 1425 01:10:09.239 --> 01:10:12.840 if this goes down, this is if Ivan Gonda support 1426 01:10:12.880 --> 01:10:17.199 your boys, stick with you. And but the answer was yes, 1427 01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:20.680 but again you have to figure you had to figure 1428 01:10:20.720 --> 01:10:24.600 this thing out. And so you're you know, we deployed 1429 01:10:26.199 --> 01:10:29.199 Afghanistan and summer of two thousand and seven, and we 1430 01:10:29.199 --> 01:10:32.720 were there until the early early part of two thousand 1431 01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:36.600 and eight, and we saw a protracted amount of combat, 1432 01:10:37.079 --> 01:10:39.800 hell of a lot of When I was in for Geoficer, 1433 01:10:39.840 --> 01:10:45.239 of course, great a guy named black Jack Matthews, lieutenant colonel, 1434 01:10:45.920 --> 01:10:49.600 the battalion commander and way in nineteen sixty eight, and 1435 01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:52.560 he had given his marines the order to fix bannets 1436 01:10:53.119 --> 01:10:56.720 fuck fuck is right. And what he said about that 1437 01:10:57.079 --> 01:10:59.760 is that it was the most difficult order that he'd 1438 01:10:59.760 --> 01:11:01.920 given anyone because he knew someone on the other end 1439 01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:06.880 of that rifle was gonna die. And so while I 1440 01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:09.520 never I of course never gave the order for expandits, 1441 01:11:09.560 --> 01:11:12.359 I know people who have done it in combat. Really well, yeah, 1442 01:11:12.359 --> 01:11:14.199 infantry unit, there's infantry guys whos need to way more 1443 01:11:14.239 --> 01:11:16.920 combat than we have. I mean, seriously, let's call it 1444 01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:20.159 with it. And and so but I thought to myself, 1445 01:11:20.680 --> 01:11:22.239 and they talked about the combat that he was in 1446 01:11:22.239 --> 01:11:25.239 and it's you know, just day overnight type of leadership 1447 01:11:25.239 --> 01:11:26.560 and things that he had to be involved in. I 1448 01:11:26.600 --> 01:11:28.079 was like, I'm never going to see something like that. 1449 01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:33.720 I'll never say never, because man, oh man, I couldn't 1450 01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:36.479 get deployed to Iraq. I couldn't get you know. 1451 01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:38.479 I kept going to these Yeah, you fought for this 1452 01:11:39.079 --> 01:11:39.880 everything I could. 1453 01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:41.760 And now I was finally able to go to the 1454 01:11:41.760 --> 01:11:44.079 game and I got all caught up. 1455 01:11:45.640 --> 01:11:47.920 What area were you guys deployed to? We were in 1456 01:11:47.960 --> 01:11:51.479 the home so at that time was really dangerous. I 1457 01:11:51.520 --> 01:11:53.600 mean not that in place was great, but that was 1458 01:11:53.920 --> 01:11:56.399 ship This timeframe is like during the surge too, isn't it. 1459 01:11:56.560 --> 01:11:58.439 No, it's just prior to that, just prior so we 1460 01:11:58.439 --> 01:12:00.239 were kind of the only Marine Union in this area, 1461 01:12:00.319 --> 01:12:02.520 kind of alone and unafraid, and then we were lashed 1462 01:12:02.600 --> 01:12:04.640 up with we were working with Special Forces units. So 1463 01:12:04.680 --> 01:12:10.319 I've I have earned my Special Forces combat patch, which 1464 01:12:10.479 --> 01:12:12.760 which is pretty cool. I actually take a lot of 1465 01:12:12.760 --> 01:12:15.560 pride in that because I work with some phenomenal guys 1466 01:12:15.560 --> 01:12:18.000 and to be you know, be fair, we were new 1467 01:12:18.039 --> 01:12:20.680 to the environment there are guys who had been in Afghanistan, 1468 01:12:20.800 --> 01:12:23.920 but earlier there were guys who'd been in Iraq. But 1469 01:12:24.039 --> 01:12:26.640 this was not Iraq. It was different. You had to 1470 01:12:26.720 --> 01:12:30.279 learn relearn things, and the enemy gets a huge vote. 1471 01:12:30.319 --> 01:12:32.439 And we were working with SF guys who'd been there 1472 01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:35.199 a while, and we're like, hey, we're going to show 1473 01:12:35.199 --> 01:12:37.399 you some stuff, like different ways of packing your gear, 1474 01:12:37.439 --> 01:12:41.560 different ways of patrolling, you know, or navigating and avoiding 1475 01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:43.960 IDs and all this other stuff, and then they you know, 1476 01:12:46.319 --> 01:12:52.279 we probably no, we definitely avoided more casualties than we took, 1477 01:12:52.319 --> 01:12:55.479 even though we did take casualties because of their tutelage. 1478 01:12:55.600 --> 01:12:56.880 And I would I would give them. But on the 1479 01:12:56.920 --> 01:12:59.319 other side, it felt like we were being watched, like hey, 1480 01:12:59.359 --> 01:13:01.840 you know big brother. Yeah, well, hey, you know, nobody 1481 01:13:01.880 --> 01:13:04.720 really trust these Mars Socks guys too much, so let's 1482 01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:07.000 just put some messf guys with them, because you know 1483 01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:10.239 they're so trustworthy. Yeah. I was gonna say, like, well, 1484 01:13:10.279 --> 01:13:11.920 it depends on how you look at it, right, Yeah, 1485 01:13:12.199 --> 01:13:14.840 And so we just came to find like after a while, 1486 01:13:14.840 --> 01:13:16.600 I was like, hey, you guys are like us, Well, yeah, 1487 01:13:16.640 --> 01:13:18.239 I mean we're trying to tell you that, like we're 1488 01:13:18.399 --> 01:13:21.239 you know, we get it, you know, but but people 1489 01:13:21.279 --> 01:13:23.119 did ask were like, what's your training course? Like did 1490 01:13:23.159 --> 01:13:24.560 you get a bereat do you get in We didn't 1491 01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:26.239 even have our badge in the marto. We weren't you 1492 01:13:26.279 --> 01:13:28.760 weren't raiders yet, nopeah, And we were all forced recomp 1493 01:13:28.760 --> 01:13:30.000 But I'll tell you what, like, as soon as you 1494 01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:31.680 told me were former forced dudes, you said you got 1495 01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:33.840 this credibility. Yeah, like okay, talking about it, like okay, 1496 01:13:33.840 --> 01:13:35.720 these guys are yeah, yeah, right. 1497 01:13:37.199 --> 01:13:39.560 Any missions that like stand out in your mind, I 1498 01:13:39.600 --> 01:13:42.039 mean maybe like the first time you were in combat 1499 01:13:42.399 --> 01:13:45.720 or any that particularly you know, stand out for you. 1500 01:13:46.119 --> 01:13:49.039 So we were we were tasked, like we said, we 1501 01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:50.840 were direct action unit, but we did a lot of 1502 01:13:51.039 --> 01:13:55.319 infantry esque fighting. Infantry fighting, but we're small. One hundred 1503 01:13:55.319 --> 01:13:56.800 and twenty guys is still not a lot of dudes, 1504 01:13:56.880 --> 01:13:59.319 especially out in that bad guy country. And we often 1505 01:13:59.319 --> 01:14:02.920 did a lot up patrols by platoons, So you've only 1506 01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:05.159 got five six vehicles that you're out there by yourself, 1507 01:14:05.840 --> 01:14:10.239 whether it's reconnaissance or you're actually doing active combat ops 1508 01:14:10.279 --> 01:14:12.800 where you're searching for the enemy, or even a raid, 1509 01:14:12.840 --> 01:14:14.000 which we did do a few of. 1510 01:14:16.159 --> 01:14:16.239 You. 1511 01:14:19.079 --> 01:14:23.079 We did a clearing operation and it makes it sound 1512 01:14:23.119 --> 01:14:25.560 like it's an old Vietnam search and destroy, but that's 1513 01:14:25.560 --> 01:14:26.319 not what it was. 1514 01:14:26.359 --> 01:14:28.159 We're just kind of moving up this valley to kind 1515 01:14:28.159 --> 01:14:29.720 of movement to contact. 1516 01:14:29.359 --> 01:14:31.960 Movement to contact. We're really trying to figure out the 1517 01:14:32.039 --> 01:14:37.159 enemy because the big the big push was going to 1518 01:14:37.239 --> 01:14:39.840 be on a town, a city called Musa Kali, which 1519 01:14:39.880 --> 01:14:41.520 is further to the north, and we were down south 1520 01:14:41.520 --> 01:14:43.439 of the Kajaki so none of the six to ten 1521 01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:45.640 route hadn't been made yet, any of that stuff, you know, 1522 01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:48.920 those those things, those improvement projects hadn't been completed, and 1523 01:14:48.960 --> 01:14:51.000 they're like, what's the enemy like up in this valley? 1524 01:14:51.000 --> 01:14:53.720 We got to go figure it out. So they sent 1525 01:14:53.840 --> 01:14:57.479 us into this valley that you know, in the Helman 1526 01:14:57.600 --> 01:15:00.800 River to go and do that. And at first it 1527 01:15:00.880 --> 01:15:03.039 was presence patrols. You know, you're going to meet meet 1528 01:15:03.039 --> 01:15:05.600 with people, meet with villagers and things like that, and 1529 01:15:05.640 --> 01:15:08.760 then it just started getting incrementally more hairy the further 1530 01:15:08.840 --> 01:15:12.119 north we went, and so we did a clearing operation. 1531 01:15:12.199 --> 01:15:16.279 As a company. We're in three different sections and mine 1532 01:15:16.800 --> 01:15:20.479 was actually I was actually in reserve, so it was 1533 01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:23.760 not so much wear security. But you know, we had 1534 01:15:23.760 --> 01:15:26.600 to like move in a bubble, you know, cigar like 1535 01:15:27.520 --> 01:15:31.279 cigar shape patrolling formation just with vehicles basically, so you 1536 01:15:31.359 --> 01:15:33.239 got your flank security. And we were in the back 1537 01:15:33.359 --> 01:15:36.479 and we got into a pretty good contact over on 1538 01:15:36.520 --> 01:15:41.000 our left flank. One of my vehicles was hit. Luke 1539 01:15:41.039 --> 01:15:45.600 Mylan was killed. He was a Special Forces medic h 1540 01:15:45.920 --> 01:15:48.760 they called Sarks a Special Amphibious Reconnaissance Corman, which is 1541 01:15:48.800 --> 01:15:56.640 a Navy eighteen delta Special Forces metic. He was. Luke 1542 01:15:56.760 --> 01:15:59.399 was a great guy. I still speak with his family. 1543 01:16:00.640 --> 01:16:03.279 He factors very heavily into my novel which will be 1544 01:16:03.319 --> 01:16:11.319 coming out this year. He held the Army the Use 1545 01:16:11.319 --> 01:16:14.880 of Soak Special Forces Medic of the Year Award and 1546 01:16:15.000 --> 01:16:19.479 the Marsak Operator of the Year Award simultaneously. Okay, so he 1547 01:16:19.520 --> 01:16:22.439 was an absolute warfighter. And when he was killed, we 1548 01:16:22.479 --> 01:16:25.039 were like, oh my god, like this is this is 1549 01:16:25.079 --> 01:16:27.000 our one of the best guys. Yeah, this was like 1550 01:16:27.039 --> 01:16:30.800 holy shit like it was and five other guys were wounded, 1551 01:16:30.920 --> 01:16:33.960 and it was really that was just a huge eye opener. 1552 01:16:34.000 --> 01:16:35.920 And I think that day was when I really learned 1553 01:16:35.960 --> 01:16:41.000 how to lead, because you had to somehow deal with 1554 01:16:41.039 --> 01:16:44.239 the flood of emotions, and your marines are all busted up, 1555 01:16:44.239 --> 01:16:46.119 and then you've got guys who want revenge and you've 1556 01:16:46.119 --> 01:16:51.159 got dudes being evacuated, and it was just terrible. So 1557 01:16:51.239 --> 01:16:54.840 the next day, as we're doing this, So at that time, 1558 01:16:54.880 --> 01:16:56.720 I had not fired my rifle in combat yet. I 1559 01:16:56.880 --> 01:16:58.720 you know, I'd heard this whole thing on the radio. 1560 01:16:58.760 --> 01:17:03.880 I'd seen this entire thing unfold, but it was it 1561 01:17:03.920 --> 01:17:07.279 was distant. I was an observer, but I wasn't in it. 1562 01:17:07.680 --> 01:17:13.640 And I was like, I've now seen combat. I've been 1563 01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:17.239 in combat, but I don't feel like I've been tested. 1564 01:17:19.239 --> 01:17:23.199 And then later that evening the following day, my company 1565 01:17:23.199 --> 01:17:25.600 commander came to me and said, we need to establish 1566 01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:29.800 a foothold on this one part of this ridgeline. So 1567 01:17:29.880 --> 01:17:32.000 I want you to take your platoon down into this, 1568 01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:37.840 to this compound and take it over and fortify it, 1569 01:17:37.960 --> 01:17:40.039 and then the rest of us will swing up past you. 1570 01:17:41.039 --> 01:17:42.680 Because everyone else has been in a lot of contact, 1571 01:17:43.359 --> 01:17:47.520 and we were fresh, fresh, relatively fresh, because we'd do 1572 01:17:47.520 --> 01:17:51.439 it on the back, mounted up, did a quick scan. 1573 01:17:51.520 --> 01:17:52.920 We're like, all right, let's go. Came up with our 1574 01:17:52.920 --> 01:17:56.039 soul plan, and my support by fire position that was 1575 01:17:56.079 --> 01:18:02.720 being provided by the infantry. Never underestimate the enemy. They 1576 01:18:02.760 --> 01:18:05.359 pumped two mortar rounds onto that to knock them out 1577 01:18:05.600 --> 01:18:08.520 as they saw us driving in, so they had to displace. 1578 01:18:09.159 --> 01:18:11.399 And now I had no support by fire and we 1579 01:18:11.399 --> 01:18:13.800 had no air support. At the time. There was stumb 1580 01:18:14.479 --> 01:18:15.880 pulled in on the overhead. It was just like this 1581 01:18:16.000 --> 01:18:18.880 confluence of stuff. So now we drive down at this 1582 01:18:18.920 --> 01:18:21.119 compound and as soon as we get there, we are 1583 01:18:21.159 --> 01:18:24.960 in the base. Murphy's loss says, if your attack is 1584 01:18:25.000 --> 01:18:27.600 going well, you're in an ambush. Well, my attack went 1585 01:18:27.640 --> 01:18:30.279 swimmingly because I was at the base of a U 1586 01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:33.399 shape ambush and they were hammering us inside of one 1587 01:18:33.479 --> 01:18:37.880 hundred yards. RPG round bounced off the hood of my truck. 1588 01:18:37.960 --> 01:18:40.359 I don't know what it just and it blew up 1589 01:18:40.359 --> 01:18:48.840 behind us. My guys dismounted and started doing fire and 1590 01:18:48.920 --> 01:18:51.880 maneuver bounds through these guys and trench lines and they're 1591 01:18:51.920 --> 01:18:56.840 throwing grenades and oh my god. Well, I think it 1592 01:18:56.920 --> 01:18:59.000 scared the shit out of the enemy because they were like, 1593 01:18:59.039 --> 01:18:59.960 these guys are crazy. 1594 01:19:00.119 --> 01:19:03.880 Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's a reputation Marines had with 1595 01:19:03.880 --> 01:19:05.159 the japanesetern the war. 1596 01:19:05.279 --> 01:19:07.159 I mean, this is this is who you guys are. 1597 01:19:07.279 --> 01:19:11.760 So I realized after the RBG hit the hit the 1598 01:19:11.840 --> 01:19:14.000 hood and bounced off, I was like, okay, this is 1599 01:19:14.880 --> 01:19:16.279 I don't want to be in this vehicle. I at 1600 01:19:16.359 --> 01:19:18.319 least to get out of it. And I need to 1601 01:19:18.359 --> 01:19:21.800 control this fight because that's the officer's job, is command 1602 01:19:21.880 --> 01:19:26.079 and control. But we also teach the fighter leader concept. 1603 01:19:26.399 --> 01:19:31.039 And I get out of the vehicle and the bullets 1604 01:19:31.079 --> 01:19:33.560 are flying, and I start to run around the back 1605 01:19:33.560 --> 01:19:36.239 of My driver yells his name is Coyle. He goes, hey, sir, 1606 01:19:36.399 --> 01:19:40.199 can you shut the door? My dumbass. So I run 1607 01:19:40.239 --> 01:19:42.640 back and I shut the door so he has some protection, 1608 01:19:43.359 --> 01:19:46.399 and he's just sitting there my fifty caliber. My gunner 1609 01:19:46.439 --> 01:19:49.079 up top is Blastmary of the fifty caliber. I run 1610 01:19:49.119 --> 01:19:52.479 around the other side of the vehicle. I'm getting on 1611 01:19:52.520 --> 01:19:58.039 my radio and uh, I mean, it is just chaos 1612 01:19:58.399 --> 01:20:03.760 and calling in tack report and then I get the word, hey, 1613 01:20:04.239 --> 01:20:06.119 get out of there at this place, like there's no 1614 01:20:06.199 --> 01:20:10.279 point in trying to fight this out, So tell everybody, hey, 1615 01:20:10.319 --> 01:20:14.800 we're withdrawing. You'll get back to the vehicles. And again, 1616 01:20:14.840 --> 01:20:16.640 like I've seen these guys now running forward. I don't 1617 01:20:16.680 --> 01:20:18.600 know if anybody's down on these trench lines now, like 1618 01:20:18.640 --> 01:20:22.199 I've lost site. It's dusk, so you really can't see 1619 01:20:22.199 --> 01:20:24.720 what There's a lot of dust and firepower, firepower coming 1620 01:20:24.760 --> 01:20:29.479 in going out, and we are in a is just 1621 01:20:29.560 --> 01:20:35.159 a severe firefight. And I owe Eden Pearl Massar and 1622 01:20:35.239 --> 01:20:38.640 Eden Pearl, who's passed away unfortunately due to his wounds 1623 01:20:38.760 --> 01:20:43.880 from here's back. I owe him everything for teaching me 1624 01:20:43.960 --> 01:20:48.199 this technique. And he told me, if you run around 1625 01:20:48.239 --> 01:20:52.640 a piece of cover, you need to reclear that piece 1626 01:20:52.640 --> 01:20:54.760 of cover because you don't know what's now on the 1627 01:20:54.800 --> 01:21:01.520 other side of it. And I took up the stance 1628 01:21:01.640 --> 01:21:04.119 just like we were trained, and I leaned out around 1629 01:21:04.119 --> 01:21:06.680 the edge of that truck and there's a three dudes 1630 01:21:06.760 --> 01:21:09.680 running with a PK. Holy shit, and I zapped them 1631 01:21:09.680 --> 01:21:14.800 all and that was the first people I'd ever seen 1632 01:21:14.880 --> 01:21:19.840 in my sights or killed. And they all went right down. 1633 01:21:20.720 --> 01:21:25.880 And then I started running and Jack, I can I 1634 01:21:25.880 --> 01:21:29.520 can feel the bullets going by me. I can hear 1635 01:21:29.600 --> 01:21:33.399 him smacking the armor plate behind me. My interpreter is 1636 01:21:33.479 --> 01:21:35.520 laying on his back with his ak over the top 1637 01:21:35.520 --> 01:21:38.239 of the armor plate, just going like this. Just trying, 1638 01:21:38.319 --> 01:21:41.199 like like he's terrified and just trying to contribute. That's 1639 01:21:41.199 --> 01:21:43.279 the technique, it is. And I'm ducking underneath like he 1640 01:21:43.319 --> 01:21:45.119 has no idea that I'm there. So I'm like ducking underneath. 1641 01:21:45.159 --> 01:21:46.560 And I jumped back in with Coil and I said 1642 01:21:46.640 --> 01:21:51.600 we need to turn around. He goes Roger that sir, so, 1643 01:21:51.600 --> 01:21:54.359 so now we got to get everybody back in the 1644 01:21:54.399 --> 01:21:56.399 vehicles and we're trying to get accountability. I'm like, it's 1645 01:21:56.439 --> 01:21:58.079 just kiss and we're trying to turn these vehicles. 1646 01:21:58.680 --> 01:22:01.880 But the boys meanwhile secured like old school battle drills, 1647 01:22:01.920 --> 01:22:03.439 like lobbing frags into those trenches. 1648 01:22:03.439 --> 01:22:05.319 It is. They did it immediately, they did it. They 1649 01:22:05.720 --> 01:22:07.760 went into an attack like that and they basically did 1650 01:22:07.800 --> 01:22:11.600 an Australian people coming back. Fuck man, we're talking about 1651 01:22:11.640 --> 01:22:15.039 guys firing, you know, saws in their shoulder, ain'ting while 1652 01:22:15.079 --> 01:22:19.439 standing up, so they're just just laying it down. And 1653 01:22:19.760 --> 01:22:22.159 I just remember looking at other guy's named Rodriguez, called 1654 01:22:22.199 --> 01:22:28.239 him Big Rod, and he's just standing there just leaning 1655 01:22:28.239 --> 01:22:32.359 into his saw, just doing controlled eight to ten round burths, 1656 01:22:32.399 --> 01:22:36.000 doing God's work. I was like, awesome this, I mean, 1657 01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:38.159 I was just like mesmerized at that point in time. 1658 01:22:39.119 --> 01:22:41.960 So we started turning around and my my Jtach had 1659 01:22:42.000 --> 01:22:44.800 the wherewithal because he's smart to go out the other 1660 01:22:44.840 --> 01:22:46.680 side of the vehicle instead of running because you're like 1661 01:22:46.680 --> 01:22:48.159 told you remember, I couldn't fly a plane. This guy 1662 01:22:48.239 --> 01:22:51.720 was he could. He jumped into this low covered ditch 1663 01:22:51.760 --> 01:22:53.640 and was now like calling in air support and he's 1664 01:22:53.680 --> 01:22:55.119 got eight tens on the run. He's like, hey, we 1665 01:22:55.159 --> 01:22:56.680 got eight tens coming when you get out of here. 1666 01:22:57.720 --> 01:23:00.399 And he has the wherewithal to have a smoke grenade 1667 01:23:00.399 --> 01:23:01.880 with him, so he's just he's doing like everything he's 1668 01:23:01.880 --> 01:23:04.000 got all this time. He's laid out front of him. 1669 01:23:04.000 --> 01:23:06.159 He's like, oh yeah, Roger, we ground call sign just 1670 01:23:06.199 --> 01:23:09.439 a little combat. So you've got like road over here 1671 01:23:09.479 --> 01:23:13.279 shooting like like you know, he's just having a field day, 1672 01:23:13.319 --> 01:23:19.000 and you've got fruit bat just like he tends u 1673 01:23:19.039 --> 01:23:21.079 sounds good. How many bombs he got? Okay, we can 1674 01:23:21.119 --> 01:23:22.880 stock that up. And he's doing all the you know 1675 01:23:22.880 --> 01:23:25.960 stuff in his head. So we we get back in 1676 01:23:25.960 --> 01:23:28.399 and as we're getting we get everybody back in the vehicles, 1677 01:23:28.600 --> 01:23:30.720 we get everybody rogered up, and this seems like it 1678 01:23:30.760 --> 01:23:33.319 takes forever. But it's quick. And remember we did all 1679 01:23:33.319 --> 01:23:35.399 this driver training, we did all this stuff like stuck 1680 01:23:35.520 --> 01:23:37.279 vehicle training, and sure enough, as we're getting ready to 1681 01:23:37.279 --> 01:23:39.359 pull out, here this's oh my god, we're stuck. And 1682 01:23:39.399 --> 01:23:41.359 the way we had pulled in there was like this 1683 01:23:41.439 --> 01:23:43.680 drop off and one of those gmvs and they wait 1684 01:23:43.960 --> 01:23:47.520 like ten tons it has now dropped into the side 1685 01:23:47.520 --> 01:23:49.880 of this freaking thing and is hanging by a wheel. 1686 01:23:50.199 --> 01:23:52.439 So they've dropped the wheel into this thing, and I'm thinking, 1687 01:23:52.520 --> 01:23:54.720 this is it. We're dead. They're gonna hit like they've 1688 01:23:54.760 --> 01:23:57.800 got a stationary vehicle. They're gonna get those RPGs. Now 1689 01:23:57.800 --> 01:23:59.840 that we've shocked them, they're gonna recover from that shock, 1690 01:24:00.479 --> 01:24:02.479 and they're gonna they're gonna blow that vehicle up, and 1691 01:24:02.520 --> 01:24:05.319 we're gonna have a real problem. You know. It's not like, well, 1692 01:24:05.319 --> 01:24:07.000 maybe we should just fight our way into the compound 1693 01:24:07.000 --> 01:24:08.560 and you know, just leave the vehicles and just do 1694 01:24:08.600 --> 01:24:10.079 what we can. So I'm I'm trying to make all 1695 01:24:10.119 --> 01:24:11.680 these decisions that I hear this and I turned the coil, 1696 01:24:11.720 --> 01:24:14.960 so you gotta stop. He goes what like, we gotta 1697 01:24:14.960 --> 01:24:19.439 stuck vehicle, gotta stop, and he's just like, but we're driving, like, 1698 01:24:19.560 --> 01:24:21.119 we gotta get out of here, like I understand that. 1699 01:24:21.840 --> 01:24:23.880 So now we're having this philosophical discussion about why we 1700 01:24:23.920 --> 01:24:26.920 have to stop, and the hand of God, Jack or 1701 01:24:26.920 --> 01:24:29.000 something reaches down and pulls this vehicle off of this 1702 01:24:29.039 --> 01:24:31.199 freaking thing like that because people are jumping out with 1703 01:24:31.239 --> 01:24:33.600 toastraps trying like now they're under fire doing this kind 1704 01:24:33.640 --> 01:24:35.439 of stuff right like we I don't know how many 1705 01:24:36.399 --> 01:24:38.279 Vour awards came out of this one action alone because 1706 01:24:38.279 --> 01:24:40.319 of what people were doing. They had so they towed 1707 01:24:40.359 --> 01:24:42.520 them out of it. Well, they hadn't even gotten hooked 1708 01:24:42.560 --> 01:24:45.159 up yet, and somehow no ship they backed out of. 1709 01:24:45.359 --> 01:24:47.920 The driver figured out whether he put it in four 1710 01:24:47.920 --> 01:24:51.319 wheel drive and toggling what he could, but all of 1711 01:24:51.319 --> 01:24:53.279 a sudden, when he jumps out of this freaking thing, 1712 01:24:53.279 --> 01:24:55.079 they're like, we're free go going, So like we just 1713 01:24:55.119 --> 01:24:58.920 start barreling out of there, and then we got back 1714 01:24:58.960 --> 01:25:01.960 to the covered sealed. Then we all stopped and watched 1715 01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:03.520 the eight tents come in. Yeah, we watched the eight 1716 01:25:03.520 --> 01:25:07.319 ten's come in and they pulverized them, and then it 1717 01:25:07.439 --> 01:25:10.319 got dark and then you know, the combat just ends 1718 01:25:10.319 --> 01:25:12.279 after a while as you know, and then you just 1719 01:25:12.800 --> 01:25:17.000 it's just really quiet. And I wasn't. I was. I 1720 01:25:17.079 --> 01:25:18.840 was not a smoker, right, I love cigars, but I 1721 01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:20.720 was not a cigarette smoker. But a lot of my 1722 01:25:20.760 --> 01:25:22.560 guys were. And I was like, hey man, did anyone 1723 01:25:22.640 --> 01:25:25.239 have a cigarette? Like I really I need I need 1724 01:25:25.279 --> 01:25:28.600 this and the adrenaliness to like coursing through me. Eighte 1725 01:25:28.640 --> 01:25:30.560 eight tents come in and pulverize when we get now 1726 01:25:30.560 --> 01:25:33.119 an AC one thirty over the head just to consolidate 1727 01:25:33.159 --> 01:25:35.119 all of us, and they we run fire missions off 1728 01:25:35.159 --> 01:25:41.199 of that for a while and I'm sitting in the 1729 01:25:41.199 --> 01:25:43.520 covered and shield we had. We did a few more. 1730 01:25:43.680 --> 01:25:45.239 There was a few more combat actions after that as well, 1731 01:25:45.279 --> 01:25:46.920 because we we had we still had to fight. Are 1732 01:25:46.960 --> 01:25:49.479 we out of this little part of the valley. I 1733 01:25:49.479 --> 01:25:51.479 carried an M seventy nine while those old school breakway 1734 01:25:51.520 --> 01:25:53.319 the blooper yep. I carried one into my vehicle. I 1735 01:25:53.319 --> 01:25:56.399 grabbed a bandlier of seventy nine. I just started like 1736 01:25:56.520 --> 01:25:59.359 just lobbing them out to just put put rounds down 1737 01:25:59.439 --> 01:26:02.880 to get because people were coming back. So probably one 1738 01:26:02.920 --> 01:26:06.720 of the last marines of fire comeback. And uh and 1739 01:26:06.760 --> 01:26:10.560 as I as I as I got done. I I 1740 01:26:10.560 --> 01:26:14.479 had this cigarette, and Abdullah, my interpreter's listening to the 1741 01:26:14.640 --> 01:26:16.680 icon and hear all the chatter, and he said, Sir, sir, 1742 01:26:16.920 --> 01:26:19.159 it's very bad for them. We really, you know, we 1743 01:26:19.199 --> 01:26:20.880 really gave him a good going over. It's like, is 1744 01:26:20.880 --> 01:26:23.920 that right? He goes, he goes, yes, he uh. They 1745 01:26:23.960 --> 01:26:26.760 said you were worse than the Russians, and I said, 1746 01:26:26.760 --> 01:26:29.680 that's probably the best ye been paid in my life. 1747 01:26:30.279 --> 01:26:32.520 So then the adrenaline wears office. I'm smoking the cigarette 1748 01:26:32.520 --> 01:26:34.880 and I sit down against the humvee or the gmv's wheel. 1749 01:26:35.199 --> 01:26:37.680 I put the helmet down and I start falling asleep. 1750 01:26:37.720 --> 01:26:38.960 And I woke up and it had burned down to 1751 01:26:39.039 --> 01:26:40.880 my fingers, and like that's what I probably would have 1752 01:26:40.920 --> 01:26:42.680 slept there all night afterward. So I mean, you know, 1753 01:26:42.720 --> 01:26:44.880 if anybody's like, yeah, no, at that point, you're patting 1754 01:26:45.399 --> 01:26:51.640 chin strap, swinging, you know, I was exhaustible. Oh my gosh. 1755 01:26:51.720 --> 01:26:53.039 And then we got up and you know, and that 1756 01:26:53.039 --> 01:26:55.159 that mission continued for another couple of days before we 1757 01:26:55.199 --> 01:26:58.239 finally we can only go so far and we're just like, well, 1758 01:26:59.039 --> 01:27:02.039 this is the enemy from line basically, and so pushing 1759 01:27:02.119 --> 01:27:04.479 up into there, we still did more incursions to keep 1760 01:27:04.520 --> 01:27:07.399 them on their heels as the MUSICAA thing was eventually 1761 01:27:07.399 --> 01:27:10.119 going to unfold later that that that fall, later winter, 1762 01:27:10.800 --> 01:27:15.520 our early winter, and it did. We were part of 1763 01:27:15.520 --> 01:27:17.760 that on the outskirts, but the eighty second actually that 1764 01:27:17.960 --> 01:27:22.600 entire mission with with Afghan partners. So wow, I didn't 1765 01:27:22.600 --> 01:27:24.079 know I was going to go deep into a war story. 1766 01:27:24.119 --> 01:27:27.479 But yeah, that was I mean, that was notable. It 1767 01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:29.399 was well, yeah, it was. It was. It was memorable 1768 01:27:29.479 --> 01:27:30.960 just because you know, that was the first like real 1769 01:27:30.960 --> 01:27:33.079 action I've been in. And then after that, we we 1770 01:27:33.159 --> 01:27:36.319 just we got into more and different stuff, and there 1771 01:27:36.319 --> 01:27:38.199 were always named commanders that we were trying to go 1772 01:27:38.239 --> 01:27:43.560 after HVT types, and I did some analysis, went analysis 1773 01:27:43.560 --> 01:27:51.920 one time was one of the SF intelligence sergeants and uh, 1774 01:27:52.000 --> 01:27:54.439 if an American unit had taken it as many casualties 1775 01:27:54.520 --> 01:27:57.039 as we supposedly inflict on it on the talle Ban 1776 01:27:57.119 --> 01:27:59.640 and their leadership, like we would be combat ineffective for 1777 01:27:59.680 --> 01:28:01.560 all the shadow governors and all these other people. Yeah, 1778 01:28:01.680 --> 01:28:05.479 you know, we were after and killing, so I think 1779 01:28:05.479 --> 01:28:11.239 we underestimated just how resilient and their resolve, Like we 1780 01:28:11.880 --> 01:28:14.920 did have them on the ropes at one point as 1781 01:28:15.319 --> 01:28:17.600 you know, probably more like a nine to ten timeframe. 1782 01:28:17.600 --> 01:28:20.239 But at that point in time, they were absolutely for 1783 01:28:20.399 --> 01:28:24.920 roachis and beautible and we could but we kind of 1784 01:28:25.640 --> 01:28:28.880 Afghanistan was a distractor from Iraq and we were really 1785 01:28:28.920 --> 01:28:30.479 stretch pretty thin, and when we get too big into 1786 01:28:30.479 --> 01:28:33.680 the American political sphere at that point, but you know, 1787 01:28:35.399 --> 01:28:39.159 it was so yeah, that was two thousand and when 1788 01:28:39.159 --> 01:28:40.840 we finally finished came back in two thousand and eight. 1789 01:28:41.760 --> 01:28:44.520 How long were you guys over there? I got there 1790 01:28:44.560 --> 01:28:51.600 in August, so five months, okay, so relatively short, but 1791 01:28:51.680 --> 01:28:55.000 it probably felt like a hell of a long time. Yeah, yeah, 1792 01:28:55.039 --> 01:28:58.720 I aged we all did at that point in time. 1793 01:29:00.199 --> 01:29:02.359 So coming back from that deployment, I mean you kind 1794 01:29:02.359 --> 01:29:06.039 of got your wish in a sense, I mean everything 1795 01:29:06.119 --> 01:29:07.279 you were looking for. 1796 01:29:08.760 --> 01:29:11.479 And I never looked I never wanted it again, like 1797 01:29:11.560 --> 01:29:13.880 not like that you got it out of your system. Well, 1798 01:29:13.960 --> 01:29:16.239 I mean I think we all become sort of adrenaline 1799 01:29:16.319 --> 01:29:21.039 junkies in that, you know, you and and and Fick 1800 01:29:21.119 --> 01:29:24.760 talks about this in his book, where you're you become 1801 01:29:24.840 --> 01:29:28.800 kind of addicted to it, you want, you want to hit, 1802 01:29:28.960 --> 01:29:30.640 and then if you're going to be out deployed, then 1803 01:29:30.640 --> 01:29:32.239 you're like, well, I hope we get into action. I 1804 01:29:32.239 --> 01:29:34.159 want to do something. And then no matter how much 1805 01:29:34.159 --> 01:29:37.920 action you've had, you're then like, well that wasn't so bad. 1806 01:29:38.000 --> 01:29:39.840 Maybe we could do a little bit more. You know, 1807 01:29:40.600 --> 01:29:42.119 I've been in this big ambising. I want to I 1808 01:29:42.119 --> 01:29:43.560 want to seek you beefing. I want to push it 1809 01:29:43.600 --> 01:29:44.880 a little. I want to get in a room and 1810 01:29:44.880 --> 01:29:46.199 actually get in a gunfight with a guy. I know 1811 01:29:46.239 --> 01:29:49.279 you don't like, there's a there's a reason we change 1812 01:29:49.319 --> 01:29:51.840 our tactics on this, like it's you know, so you. 1813 01:29:51.840 --> 01:29:53.960 Become a little bit more cautious in that sense. I 1814 01:29:54.039 --> 01:29:55.479 kind of like, be careful what you wish for a 1815 01:29:55.560 --> 01:29:56.000 sort of thing. 1816 01:29:56.119 --> 01:30:06.199 I think more circumspect, definitely, more more uh or calculating 1817 01:30:06.319 --> 01:30:10.039 or at least at least evaluative what is really worth 1818 01:30:10.239 --> 01:30:11.079 way out? 1819 01:30:11.199 --> 01:30:13.239 You know, because you know, if I lose five guys 1820 01:30:13.279 --> 01:30:14.760 on this mission, is it worth it well? 1821 01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:16.600 And that that played in later in my career is 1822 01:30:16.600 --> 01:30:18.720 particularly when you're working at the national level where you 1823 01:30:19.239 --> 01:30:22.199 were being called to do a job. When the phone rings, 1824 01:30:22.239 --> 01:30:24.760 you know that the national command authority is out of 1825 01:30:24.760 --> 01:30:29.239 options and you're gonna go in there and you get 1826 01:30:29.279 --> 01:30:34.159 into a world of risk mitigation. You can never you're 1827 01:30:34.159 --> 01:30:36.079 trying to buy down as much you can eliminate it. 1828 01:30:36.119 --> 01:30:37.720 You're trying to buy it down as much as you can. 1829 01:30:38.680 --> 01:30:41.199 And then are those risks worth it? Are the conditions 1830 01:30:41.279 --> 01:30:45.159 right enough that we can go do this? And you 1831 01:30:45.199 --> 01:30:47.399 want all those decisions made before you get into the helicopter, 1832 01:30:47.520 --> 01:30:49.279 you go, do you open the ramp to jump someone 1833 01:30:49.319 --> 01:30:51.880 out there or whatever? That That is what it comes 1834 01:30:51.880 --> 01:30:56.119 down to, and I think that that's where people run 1835 01:30:56.159 --> 01:30:59.159 into problems, part because you know senior level leaders is 1836 01:30:59.159 --> 01:31:01.119 they may not have that kind of exposure. May I 1837 01:31:01.159 --> 01:31:02.600 have that kind of experience. And this is not to 1838 01:31:02.600 --> 01:31:04.079 say that the people who are leading or not where 1839 01:31:04.079 --> 01:31:06.079 they should be for the right reasons. It's just a 1840 01:31:06.119 --> 01:31:11.600 matter of I think we lose sight of that. And 1841 01:31:11.640 --> 01:31:16.960 whereas we had a big population of combat veterans that 1842 01:31:17.000 --> 01:31:20.159 has dwindled, particularly in the last five to eight years, 1843 01:31:21.239 --> 01:31:23.880 So we're going to go back into that peacetime footing 1844 01:31:24.079 --> 01:31:28.359 a little bit, though I hope the lessons are still maintained. 1845 01:31:30.319 --> 01:31:35.600 So coming back from that deployment two thousand and eight ish, 1846 01:31:36.039 --> 01:31:38.560 what did you say in Forta Rican Or I'm sorry 1847 01:31:38.600 --> 01:31:41.000 you were Marsac at this point, so how much longer 1848 01:31:41.039 --> 01:31:42.119 were you in marsk. 1849 01:31:41.840 --> 01:31:47.640 For After that, I then became an executive officer in 1850 01:31:47.680 --> 01:31:54.399 one of the Barsok battalions, and that battalion's mission was 1851 01:31:54.439 --> 01:31:58.760 primarily like Jay said, and FID in Africa and yeah, 1852 01:31:58.760 --> 01:32:01.520 so I got some exposure. You know, working are very different, 1853 01:32:02.359 --> 01:32:08.119 you know, problems than just a red combat and for 1854 01:32:08.159 --> 01:32:10.600 the people aren't familiar to Jason, your joint combined exercise 1855 01:32:10.640 --> 01:32:13.640 for training, it's you Ford deployed. You're going to countries, 1856 01:32:13.840 --> 01:32:15.359 you know, I think s f used to say you're 1857 01:32:15.359 --> 01:32:20.479 training tomorrow's adversary today. But we did that in the 1858 01:32:20.520 --> 01:32:23.600 Philippines and parts of the Pacific as well, So I 1859 01:32:23.600 --> 01:32:25.479 had it was responsible for a whole bunch of teams 1860 01:32:25.520 --> 01:32:27.399 and people deployed doing those types of missions. So it 1861 01:32:27.439 --> 01:32:29.920 was also some of them in the in the Central 1862 01:32:29.920 --> 01:32:33.439 Asian States. Cool, So I got a lot of exposure 1863 01:32:33.479 --> 01:32:34.479 with that, and then from there I went to the 1864 01:32:34.560 --> 01:32:37.439 Naval War College, I took a took a year sabbatical 1865 01:32:37.479 --> 01:32:39.640 and got my master's degree in Rhode Island, and then 1866 01:32:39.640 --> 01:32:42.000 I came back to Marsawk after that and took on 1867 01:32:42.880 --> 01:32:50.439 company command after a stint in regimental training and regimental 1868 01:32:50.439 --> 01:32:56.840 operations in twenty eleven, and I also did an augment 1869 01:32:56.880 --> 01:33:00.840 in between then with the National Mission Force for in 1870 01:33:00.960 --> 01:33:05.199 ten and eleven. So where as an operations officer for 1871 01:33:05.239 --> 01:33:06.880 a strikeboard too. 1872 01:33:08.000 --> 01:33:12.760 Before we move on too quickly, so working some of 1873 01:33:12.800 --> 01:33:15.720 these like FID missions in Africa. 1874 01:33:15.640 --> 01:33:17.079 Asia, Central Asia. 1875 01:33:18.039 --> 01:33:19.800 The last guest we had on the on the show, 1876 01:33:19.840 --> 01:33:23.479 Frank Sabchak, wrote this whole book, Training to Win, Training 1877 01:33:23.479 --> 01:33:28.880 for Victory, and he examined five different partnership relationships that 1878 01:33:28.920 --> 01:33:32.760 we have around the world El Salvador, Philippines, Columbia, Afghanistan, Iraq. 1879 01:33:32.920 --> 01:33:33.960 It's pretty diverse. 1880 01:33:34.159 --> 01:33:36.840 Yeah, and so anyway, I would just like to kind 1881 01:33:36.840 --> 01:33:39.159 of like probe your experience a little bit on that, 1882 01:33:39.279 --> 01:33:41.960 Like what was your takeaway from some of the partnership 1883 01:33:42.000 --> 01:33:43.720 relationships that Marsock. 1884 01:33:43.359 --> 01:33:46.119 Formed in those years. Well, there many of them are 1885 01:33:46.199 --> 01:33:49.960 enduring because now the Marsok battalions had regional focus. I mean, 1886 01:33:50.079 --> 01:33:53.840 we very much like Marstock training. I think I think 1887 01:33:53.920 --> 01:33:56.199 s F can kind of say the same thing. You know, 1888 01:33:56.199 --> 01:33:59.000 whereas it didn't have a formal selection course, they developed 1889 01:33:59.039 --> 01:34:00.920 that where there's you know, it used to be sort 1890 01:34:00.960 --> 01:34:06.239 of SF didn't have an MS. They developed that, so 1891 01:34:06.279 --> 01:34:09.720 you had, you know, longevity in your career path, languages, 1892 01:34:09.840 --> 01:34:12.319 all that stuff. So MARSAK has embraced all of that stuff. 1893 01:34:12.319 --> 01:34:17.640 And MARSAC had the valuable opportunity to be able to 1894 01:34:18.880 --> 01:34:21.600 take all these different things that worked in different special 1895 01:34:21.640 --> 01:34:26.479 operations and create one that could didn't have to learn 1896 01:34:26.560 --> 01:34:29.399 as quickly. And I don't mean that not learning. It 1897 01:34:29.800 --> 01:34:31.960 didn't have to develop those things because other units were 1898 01:34:31.960 --> 01:34:33.840 already and they could say, okay, well we're going to 1899 01:34:33.880 --> 01:34:35.520 adopt that. It just took a while to get it moving. 1900 01:34:37.119 --> 01:34:39.199 So there's long standing partnerships that have been out there, 1901 01:34:39.279 --> 01:34:41.319 and we've got there's teams that work all over the 1902 01:34:41.319 --> 01:34:42.880 place in Africa, they work all over the place, in 1903 01:34:42.960 --> 01:34:45.000 the Philippines, in Central Asian states. 1904 01:34:45.039 --> 01:34:47.600 Like I said, I ran into MARSK guys in the Philippines. 1905 01:34:47.880 --> 01:34:49.560 There are people who run in them all the time 1906 01:34:49.600 --> 01:34:52.359 and they're like, what are these guys doing here? So 1907 01:34:52.479 --> 01:34:57.359 I think when you look at the global War on 1908 01:34:57.439 --> 01:34:59.399 Terror at that point in time and how we were 1909 01:34:59.399 --> 01:35:02.560 trying to literally tamp everything down everywhere, and like I said, 1910 01:35:02.560 --> 01:35:03.960 we kind of lost sight of what we were doing 1911 01:35:04.000 --> 01:35:06.000 I think as a nation, when we kind of spread 1912 01:35:06.000 --> 01:35:08.119 ourselves all over the place, we're going to defeat this ideology. 1913 01:35:08.119 --> 01:35:11.600 And every ideology is bad. And so then you you 1914 01:35:12.000 --> 01:35:15.600 swiftly find that the things are important in Western Africa 1915 01:35:15.640 --> 01:35:17.720 are not the same. Like Africa is a content, not 1916 01:35:17.760 --> 01:35:20.199 a country. The priorities are a little different and each 1917 01:35:20.239 --> 01:35:24.600 place is different. So, you know, I think the French 1918 01:35:24.640 --> 01:35:26.119 get a short shrift, but they do a lot of 1919 01:35:26.119 --> 01:35:28.319 work in Western Africa, and they take a lot of casualties, 1920 01:35:28.520 --> 01:35:30.920 you know, or did for some of these really aggressive 1921 01:35:30.920 --> 01:35:33.680 mission profiles that they ran. And but you'd be surprised 1922 01:35:33.680 --> 01:35:36.399 that Bogarama is not the biggest problem that some of 1923 01:35:36.479 --> 01:35:40.039 these places are facing, even though it makes good headlines 1924 01:35:40.039 --> 01:35:42.079 for us. Right, I'm not saying we're being overly exploitive. 1925 01:35:42.119 --> 01:35:45.000 I'm just saying that are exploitative. But I'm saying that 1926 01:35:45.159 --> 01:35:49.359 they're also dealing with extreme poverty, corruption of running water. 1927 01:35:50.079 --> 01:35:55.000 I mean, our level of poor is very different than 1928 01:35:55.079 --> 01:35:56.920 the rest of the world. And at that point in time, 1929 01:35:56.920 --> 01:36:00.279 with us trying to remap the Middle East in you know, 1930 01:36:00.760 --> 01:36:05.680 a method that we found the most acceptable without necessarily 1931 01:36:05.680 --> 01:36:07.239 asking the people who lived there if that was the 1932 01:36:07.239 --> 01:36:11.640 way that they should go. I mean, we had to 1933 01:36:11.720 --> 01:36:13.199 keep a pulse on all of the things that were 1934 01:36:13.199 --> 01:36:15.720 going on around the world, and our special operations were 1935 01:36:15.720 --> 01:36:17.399 out there doing that. And then there was partnership, of 1936 01:36:17.399 --> 01:36:21.680 course with national level organizations, state department, agency, et cetera, 1937 01:36:22.119 --> 01:36:25.000 to see if all of that jobbed because you were 1938 01:36:25.000 --> 01:36:27.600 really leaning into trying to find out what that next 1939 01:36:27.600 --> 01:36:29.479 flashpoint might be or if it was going to be there. 1940 01:36:29.479 --> 01:36:34.239 That again, it's containment, it's not right elimination, right, and 1941 01:36:34.399 --> 01:36:39.640 so those MARSTOK teams were not necessarily involved in direct 1942 01:36:39.680 --> 01:36:42.640 mission assistance and planning with units that were going out 1943 01:36:42.680 --> 01:36:46.039 and doing them, or if they were, it was much 1944 01:36:46.039 --> 01:36:49.199 more stand officer, you know, will help you develop this plan. 1945 01:36:49.279 --> 01:36:53.840 But yes, and the Philippines is another good example on that. 1946 01:36:53.920 --> 01:36:58.840 Although one of my teams on their way to a 1947 01:36:58.840 --> 01:37:02.159 training range with the Philippine Marine Corps got into a 1948 01:37:02.199 --> 01:37:06.720 big freakin' action. So next thing I know, I'm getting 1949 01:37:07.439 --> 01:37:09.600 all kinds of simple reports of this firefight that they've 1950 01:37:09.600 --> 01:37:11.600 been in, and they're you know, they're being awarded the 1951 01:37:11.680 --> 01:37:18.159 Vietnamese or the Philippine Cross a Gallantry per man And 1952 01:37:18.159 --> 01:37:19.479 now I'm going to the Marine Corps saying, hey, these 1953 01:37:19.479 --> 01:37:21.720 guys made the combat action. We're not in combat in 1954 01:37:21.720 --> 01:37:28.279 the Philippines, like well they were yesterday. Yeah, yeah, I'm 1955 01:37:28.279 --> 01:37:30.760 not making this up like you know. So yeah, I 1956 01:37:30.800 --> 01:37:32.920 mean and their medics, you know, treating wounded and all 1957 01:37:33.000 --> 01:37:35.199 kinds of stuff, and so you never and and that 1958 01:37:35.359 --> 01:37:37.239 was one thing though, that that they had talked to 1959 01:37:37.239 --> 01:37:42.840 the their their Philippine counterparts. You know, you got to 1960 01:37:42.840 --> 01:37:45.159 treat these things as a mission, like the enemy is everywhere, 1961 01:37:45.159 --> 01:37:46.800 and you know, you never know. Now they're not going 1962 01:37:46.840 --> 01:37:52.640 into take out absifs, you know, planning a headquarters cell 1963 01:37:52.760 --> 01:37:54.680 that they were not involved in the hostage rescue that 1964 01:37:54.680 --> 01:37:56.680 that happened over there as well. But there's a lot 1965 01:37:56.680 --> 01:37:58.720 of special operations things that are happening around that to 1966 01:37:58.840 --> 01:38:01.520 enable those types of missions. So they were actively involved 1967 01:38:01.520 --> 01:38:03.600 in and so they you know that those units that 1968 01:38:03.640 --> 01:38:07.119 are on the ground are your best collectors, they're your 1969 01:38:07.119 --> 01:38:10.640 best pulse on on what's going on there. And I 1970 01:38:10.680 --> 01:38:14.920 think you know, one of the in a historical area 1971 01:38:14.960 --> 01:38:19.079 that we didn't learn from is that in Somalia in 1972 01:38:19.119 --> 01:38:22.319 the nineties there were special forces, American Special Forces units, 1973 01:38:22.560 --> 01:38:25.279 US Army Special Forces units in Somali already on the 1974 01:38:25.319 --> 01:38:27.800 ground who had a pretty good handle on a deed 1975 01:38:27.840 --> 01:38:30.399 in like what this dynamic was was really like in 1976 01:38:30.399 --> 01:38:32.880 that place. And then when you know the National Command 1977 01:38:32.920 --> 01:38:36.720 Authority and I know, I mean that like Washington got involved, 1978 01:38:36.720 --> 01:38:40.079 then they were like, uh, we got the answers like, 1979 01:38:40.119 --> 01:38:42.199 oh no, we're going to take care of seals. And 1980 01:38:42.239 --> 01:38:45.680 so then you get into a mission creep that this overextends. 1981 01:38:45.680 --> 01:38:48.319 And I'm not I'm not discounting anything that happened in 1982 01:38:48.319 --> 01:38:51.279 Blackout Down or the bravery that people involved. And you know, 1983 01:38:51.600 --> 01:38:53.000 there's a lot to be learned as a feet of 1984 01:38:53.079 --> 01:38:56.159 arms in the Battle of the Black Seat, for sure, 1985 01:38:58.520 --> 01:39:01.119 but that kind of thing just it just snowballs way 1986 01:39:01.119 --> 01:39:03.079 if you're ignoring the people on the ground, or at 1987 01:39:03.159 --> 01:39:05.239 least discounting, right, you know, and that mission, when that 1988 01:39:05.239 --> 01:39:08.039 mission focus changes, it's sort of a discounting. And I 1989 01:39:08.079 --> 01:39:09.520 really don't think you can. I think there's a there's 1990 01:39:09.600 --> 01:39:11.640 value in having just chase sets out there, even if 1991 01:39:11.640 --> 01:39:14.239 people see them as boring and kind of unimportant, because 1992 01:39:14.279 --> 01:39:16.840 training people to shoot, you know, do marksmanship, and do 1993 01:39:16.880 --> 01:39:19.520 basic medical trainings. Yeah we're talking about earlier. They're never 1994 01:39:19.560 --> 01:39:21.479 going to make a movie out of it, unless something 1995 01:39:21.479 --> 01:39:21.880 goes bad. 1996 01:39:22.039 --> 01:39:25.640 But sometimes those like the liaison relationships are where you're 1997 01:39:25.640 --> 01:39:28.439 going to have the biggest impact on the battle space 1998 01:39:28.560 --> 01:39:33.479 it is, and it also helps her your unit memory. 1999 01:39:34.119 --> 01:39:37.239 Like that's the problem with the new the Marine Corps 2000 01:39:37.359 --> 01:39:40.680 Marine Expeditionary Program is it rebuilds itself every thirty six 2001 01:39:40.680 --> 01:39:44.920 months or so for a six month deployment, and because 2002 01:39:44.960 --> 01:39:48.800 they're always reconstituting, that's that's what really makes particularly our 2003 01:39:48.840 --> 01:39:51.560 our national mission forces very effective, is that they are standing. 2004 01:39:51.600 --> 01:39:54.680 They have continuity of continuity, and they have a lot 2005 01:39:54.720 --> 01:39:57.520 of lessons learned that they pay attention to and then 2006 01:39:57.520 --> 01:39:59.319 when it's time to go into this next place or like, well, 2007 01:39:59.319 --> 01:40:01.880 who do we know, who's in our network? What is 2008 01:40:01.880 --> 01:40:05.760 our experience there? And mar Marzak has done a pretty 2009 01:40:05.760 --> 01:40:06.560 good job of that as well. 2010 01:40:06.640 --> 01:40:09.920 So after that, you go to grad school and you 2011 01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:11.600 come back to the Marine Corps with a bunch of 2012 01:40:11.600 --> 01:40:15.800 new vocabulary words to. 2013 01:40:14.520 --> 01:40:22.239 Annoy your enlisted guys with, and annoyed they work. I actually, 2014 01:40:22.520 --> 01:40:26.000 ironically we're talking about Fred Galvin. I took over Fox Company, okay, 2015 01:40:26.199 --> 01:40:30.199 and that was my company command. Like I said, I 2016 01:40:30.199 --> 01:40:35.640 did a tour with a strike force as an operations officer, 2017 01:40:35.680 --> 01:40:38.840 which actually really did help me, not only post graduate 2018 01:40:38.880 --> 01:40:40.359 school or work college. 2019 01:40:40.960 --> 01:40:43.479 That was before your company command, before my company command. Okay, yeah, 2020 01:40:43.479 --> 01:40:44.760 well let's get into that a little bit. 2021 01:40:45.079 --> 01:40:53.279 Uh Okay, I I had there were Marines working specific 2022 01:40:53.399 --> 01:40:57.800 unit and they said, hey, we need some assistance with. 2023 01:40:59.600 --> 01:41:02.720 One of our opos fell through and we need a guy. 2024 01:41:02.800 --> 01:41:04.520 And I know it's short notice, but is it possibly 2025 01:41:04.520 --> 01:41:07.640 you could come fill this? And so Mars socks out 2026 01:41:07.680 --> 01:41:11.800 as a great opportunity and commanders knew each other and 2027 01:41:11.960 --> 01:41:14.920 calls were made, and so I jumped on an airplane 2028 01:41:14.960 --> 01:41:18.359 and went over there. And that was in eastern Afghanistan, 2029 01:41:18.960 --> 01:41:20.680 which is another part that I hadn't really served, and 2030 01:41:20.720 --> 01:41:23.520 so I worked. I worked there for four months, pretty 2031 01:41:24.399 --> 01:41:29.800 high end, a high operational tempo environment. But I learned 2032 01:41:29.800 --> 01:41:32.199 a lot, not only through operational planning, but just watching 2033 01:41:32.199 --> 01:41:34.640 how these units prepared and did things, so that I 2034 01:41:34.680 --> 01:41:36.840 took all of that information and when I became a 2035 01:41:36.880 --> 01:41:39.920 company commander was like, I really have a fair thorough 2036 01:41:39.960 --> 01:41:42.680 understanding about it. How do you utilize ISR? How to 2037 01:41:43.439 --> 01:41:50.880 you know, augment and accelerate the intelligence process and apply 2038 01:41:51.000 --> 01:41:54.000 that in real time and make changes and explain why 2039 01:41:54.079 --> 01:41:57.119 those changes are necessary and develop a unit that sees 2040 01:41:57.159 --> 01:42:03.039 it that way. And so you should constantly be learning 2041 01:42:03.039 --> 01:42:09.520 and involving and turn and trying new things. But if 2042 01:42:09.560 --> 01:42:11.600 you don't have support, you're kind of hallucinating. So you 2043 01:42:11.640 --> 01:42:14.039 can't just like run forward. So what they do it 2044 01:42:14.239 --> 01:42:16.359 kind of right, it's a sale, it's a salesman, it's 2045 01:42:16.399 --> 01:42:16.960 a sales pitch. 2046 01:42:17.159 --> 01:42:19.520 So you mentioned that a little bit earlier about the 2047 01:42:19.560 --> 01:42:20.560 importance of branding. 2048 01:42:21.079 --> 01:42:27.119 Uh huh, and that's uh going back to that confidence thing. 2049 01:42:27.319 --> 01:42:28.880 If at face value, they can say, oh gosh, these 2050 01:42:28.880 --> 01:42:32.399 guys know what they're doing. We trust that they will 2051 01:42:32.439 --> 01:42:35.079 be able to to do the things they say they can. 2052 01:42:36.439 --> 01:42:40.520 And so once that trust is established, and that's that's 2053 01:42:40.560 --> 01:42:44.840 really what happens in the Jaystock world. It's taking a 2054 01:42:44.920 --> 01:42:45.560 face value. 2055 01:42:45.720 --> 01:42:47.840 And you notice that with the special missions units that 2056 01:42:47.880 --> 01:42:49.960 they're like, yeah, okay, these guys got it. 2057 01:42:50.279 --> 01:42:57.439 They don't have to, they really don't. On the other side, 2058 01:42:57.119 --> 01:43:00.560 they have to maintain that, right, there's very very little 2059 01:43:00.640 --> 01:43:04.720 room for for fallibility. 2060 01:43:04.960 --> 01:43:06.960 Yeah, you have an operation where a bunch of birds 2061 01:43:06.960 --> 01:43:09.279 get shot out of the sky and the changes things 2062 01:43:09.399 --> 01:43:09.760 it does. 2063 01:43:10.039 --> 01:43:13.600 I mean just having one go down, and I mean 2064 01:43:14.359 --> 01:43:18.199 those units have taken a lot of casualties. I wouldn't 2065 01:43:18.239 --> 01:43:21.520 I'm not going to say unnecessarily, but you know, they 2066 01:43:21.600 --> 01:43:23.279 lean into the mission and say this is what we're 2067 01:43:23.279 --> 01:43:26.239 gonna we're gonna do. The risks are assessed and they 2068 01:43:26.680 --> 01:43:28.239 once they say no, it's it's time. 2069 01:43:29.119 --> 01:43:30.720 So you were in like a planning cell at that 2070 01:43:30.760 --> 01:43:32.000 point mm hmm. 2071 01:43:32.880 --> 01:43:36.520 I was the I was the operations officer for for 2072 01:43:36.600 --> 01:43:39.239 that for that task force, for that organization, and so 2073 01:43:39.279 --> 01:43:44.760 I literally was looking across the table at the targeteers 2074 01:43:44.800 --> 01:43:52.920 and the drone operators and the air mission planners like 2075 01:43:54.000 --> 01:43:56.920 just shout out to the one sixtieth. I mean the 2076 01:43:56.920 --> 01:44:00.560 first time I work with them. We we we set 2077 01:44:00.640 --> 01:44:05.279 up this in training, but we're doing a direct action 2078 01:44:05.359 --> 01:44:09.600 rate on this on this combat village, and we set 2079 01:44:09.680 --> 01:44:11.920 up that we're going to land in this field and 2080 01:44:12.880 --> 01:44:17.000 you know, attack the building. And one officer looks at 2081 01:44:17.000 --> 01:44:18.520 it and goes, well, why do you want to land there? 2082 01:44:19.399 --> 01:44:21.920 That's like one hundred and fifty yards away from the 2083 01:44:22.079 --> 01:44:24.239 from the building. We're like, yeah, well, I mean you 2084 01:44:24.239 --> 01:44:25.520 got to be able to put the helicopter do in 2085 01:44:25.560 --> 01:44:30.119 he goes my rear roador arc is thirty meters. Okay, 2086 01:44:30.119 --> 01:44:31.479 I was over for twenty five. But if that's how 2087 01:44:31.479 --> 01:44:35.199 close you can get us, fine, that's how he landed. 2088 01:44:36.279 --> 01:44:37.840 The ramp went down. He's like, there's the and the 2089 01:44:37.840 --> 01:44:41.560 guy that the ramp gunner is like, that's the billet building. 2090 01:44:41.720 --> 01:44:44.640 There's the door. There it is, and we're just like, wow, 2091 01:44:45.520 --> 01:44:48.520 curb side service, you know. So, I mean it was 2092 01:44:48.560 --> 01:44:50.279 just a difference in training that we weren't even used 2093 01:44:50.279 --> 01:44:52.600 to right once. Once you have capabilities that you can 2094 01:44:52.640 --> 01:44:54.239 reach into and people that you can work with and 2095 01:44:54.239 --> 01:44:56.680 you trust on that level, then you can have a 2096 01:44:56.680 --> 01:44:58.920 discussion about who, you know, risk to air force, risk 2097 01:44:58.920 --> 01:45:02.359 to aircraft commission, what's worth it At that point in time, 2098 01:45:02.760 --> 01:45:04.359 you know, if you're going to do an offset, fine, 2099 01:45:04.359 --> 01:45:06.439 we'll do an offset. But now we're going to land 2100 01:45:06.479 --> 01:45:09.760 in such a way that it protects everything. It's audibly masked. 2101 01:45:09.920 --> 01:45:12.359 You know, hopefully we fly in bad weather because most 2102 01:45:12.359 --> 01:45:14.199 people aren't going to be outside. You know, you bind 2103 01:45:14.199 --> 01:45:15.880 out all this risk and still going to be able 2104 01:45:15.920 --> 01:45:17.239 to land us. 2105 01:45:17.880 --> 01:45:20.239 It's cool to hear you talk about this stuff at 2106 01:45:20.239 --> 01:45:23.079 the level you got to see the planning process because 2107 01:45:23.279 --> 01:45:26.479 there is a sense with a lot of people out there. 2108 01:45:26.880 --> 01:45:29.680 Sometimes even I had to say it with former operators 2109 01:45:29.720 --> 01:45:31.680 when you listen to them talk like, I don't think 2110 01:45:31.720 --> 01:45:34.640 they totally understand everything that goes in to putting one 2111 01:45:34.680 --> 01:45:39.119 of these missions together. And running to the door and 2112 01:45:39.159 --> 01:45:42.159 blowing it down and clearing some rooms is awesome, but 2113 01:45:42.560 --> 01:45:44.840 there's all of these other pieces that have to come together. 2114 01:45:44.920 --> 01:45:48.920 There is. And that's not to say that the operator 2115 01:45:49.119 --> 01:45:52.239 at the operator level, they're not taking the risks and 2116 01:45:52.359 --> 01:45:55.600 they really I've worked in very talented people and there 2117 01:45:55.600 --> 01:45:58.960 were stuff like creatively talented people, so they just they 2118 01:45:59.279 --> 01:46:00.960 talk about how they're going to do something and I'd 2119 01:46:01.000 --> 01:46:03.760 be like, oh, I'm writing that one down, Like damn, dude, 2120 01:46:03.760 --> 01:46:06.159 that's good, Like, you know, just things you hadn't really 2121 01:46:06.159 --> 01:46:08.000 thought about. And then you you get out there with 2122 01:46:08.039 --> 01:46:10.880 their true commanders and you start listening to how they 2123 01:46:11.199 --> 01:46:13.199 run stuff and how they do command and control and 2124 01:46:14.039 --> 01:46:18.399 actually manage their you know, the chaos. And I look 2125 01:46:18.439 --> 01:46:20.600 back on that one firefight and how much better would 2126 01:46:20.640 --> 01:46:22.880 I have been have had had an opportunity of that, Yeah, 2127 01:46:23.119 --> 01:46:25.239 to be able to handle the amount of stuff that 2128 01:46:25.239 --> 01:46:28.640 he has never mind the support network. So it incrementally 2129 01:46:28.680 --> 01:46:30.319 made me better as I started looking at it. But 2130 01:46:30.399 --> 01:46:32.159 you know, because we were going back to Afghanistan and 2131 01:46:32.239 --> 01:46:36.880 my company, I realized that I could only take but 2132 01:46:37.680 --> 01:46:39.720 so much back from them and say, Okay, here's how 2133 01:46:39.760 --> 01:46:41.600 I'd like to do things. Because you're not resourced the 2134 01:46:41.640 --> 01:46:43.039 same way, you're not equip the same way, you don't 2135 01:46:43.039 --> 01:46:45.640 have the same permissions, So you can't just say why 2136 01:46:45.720 --> 01:46:48.159 can't you be this? You just say this is who 2137 01:46:48.199 --> 01:46:50.640 we are, So we got to be and we're going 2138 01:46:50.680 --> 01:46:52.079 to work with in those parameters and we're also going 2139 01:46:52.119 --> 01:46:53.159 to push them as hard as we can. 2140 01:46:53.840 --> 01:46:55.560 What were some of those lessons that you were able 2141 01:46:55.600 --> 01:46:57.800 to apply back in Marsk as far as like how 2142 01:46:57.840 --> 01:47:00.920 you organize your special teams or I mean, how did 2143 01:47:00.920 --> 01:47:03.920 that kind of come together and coalesce for you guys. 2144 01:47:06.279 --> 01:47:07.800 Well, at that point in time, we were now running 2145 01:47:07.800 --> 01:47:10.600 into what it's called VSO, which is value stability operations. 2146 01:47:10.600 --> 01:47:13.159 So I was going to be the thing that I 2147 01:47:13.279 --> 01:47:16.560 learned on that strikeforce rotation is they had multiple units 2148 01:47:16.600 --> 01:47:19.079 out independently working and at that point in time, I 2149 01:47:19.119 --> 01:47:22.359 had not done that, Like I was not experienced with 2150 01:47:22.760 --> 01:47:29.039 that type of distributed operation operational area and distributed commanding control. 2151 01:47:29.640 --> 01:47:31.119 And it's two parts. You're in command, but you've got 2152 01:47:31.119 --> 01:47:33.039 to control all this stuff. But now you have to 2153 01:47:33.039 --> 01:47:36.199 have a tremendous amount of trust in your subordinates, not 2154 01:47:36.239 --> 01:47:38.479 just your officers, but especially your NCOs to get stuff 2155 01:47:38.479 --> 01:47:41.039 done because they're operating in other areas that you may 2156 01:47:41.039 --> 01:47:44.039 not see them for weeks, and they're entrusted with money, 2157 01:47:44.119 --> 01:47:47.960 and they're entrusted with weapons, and there may be sensitive 2158 01:47:47.960 --> 01:47:50.399 programs that they had to run that they're not looking 2159 01:47:50.399 --> 01:47:52.479 for your permission on because you've already said I trust you. 2160 01:47:53.479 --> 01:47:58.640 So I had to be very direct about what my 2161 01:47:58.680 --> 01:48:00.479 expectations were. I had to follow up on that, but 2162 01:48:00.520 --> 01:48:02.760 also had to give them room to work on it. 2163 01:48:02.800 --> 01:48:05.800 And so as we're getting into the VSO piece, I 2164 01:48:05.840 --> 01:48:07.880 looked at the way that these strike forces, you know, 2165 01:48:07.920 --> 01:48:11.439 were managed from a central point and what they were 2166 01:48:11.479 --> 01:48:16.399 allowed to do, and I mirrored that and said, as 2167 01:48:16.800 --> 01:48:19.920 these guys are trained based upon where their operational areas, 2168 01:48:19.960 --> 01:48:23.920 we need to help them to achieve the best you 2169 01:48:23.960 --> 01:48:24.800 know outcomes. 2170 01:48:25.359 --> 01:48:28.520 You speaking of the mobility stuff, if I recall, right, 2171 01:48:28.680 --> 01:48:30.279 wasn't this around the time that Mars socks. 2172 01:48:30.319 --> 01:48:34.279 Started using like dirt bikes, yep, started using dirt bikes. 2173 01:48:34.279 --> 01:48:37.279 We used well that was one thing. Well when I 2174 01:48:37.319 --> 01:48:41.840 was out the strike force, I mean they were loading 2175 01:48:41.960 --> 01:48:44.640 those side by side razors into the back of I've 2176 01:48:44.680 --> 01:48:46.800 never seen that done in the back of helicopters and 2177 01:48:46.880 --> 01:48:48.560 landing in the middle of nowhere, and then you know, 2178 01:48:48.760 --> 01:48:51.079 getting the job done. Motorbikes the same thing. It was 2179 01:48:51.079 --> 01:48:52.880 like riding dirt bikes at night on night vision. I 2180 01:48:52.920 --> 01:48:55.279 want to do that, like it sounds great. So we 2181 01:48:55.359 --> 01:48:58.479 invested a lot in you know, mobility training. We sent 2182 01:48:58.560 --> 01:49:01.319 guys to dirt bike courses, guys the mule packing courses 2183 01:49:01.319 --> 01:49:02.800 in case you were going to go into the mountains 2184 01:49:02.840 --> 01:49:04.560 with with animals. And but by the way, mules are 2185 01:49:04.560 --> 01:49:07.520 not as easy to work with as you think that 2186 01:49:07.600 --> 01:49:12.399 kind of stuff. And we we we we could be creative, 2187 01:49:12.399 --> 01:49:15.000 but we also you know, made it very mission focused. 2188 01:49:15.359 --> 01:49:17.560 It wasn't just adventure training for adventure training. But then 2189 01:49:17.600 --> 01:49:19.840 you kind of put the fast roping to the side 2190 01:49:19.880 --> 01:49:21.319 because you know you're not going to be doing that much. 2191 01:49:21.359 --> 01:49:23.039 But you do focus on your jump stuff because you 2192 01:49:23.079 --> 01:49:25.840 think you know there might be an application there. But 2193 01:49:25.920 --> 01:49:28.000 at the same time you really look at it all, right, 2194 01:49:30.039 --> 01:49:33.680 are we good? Can can these units fight and thrive 2195 01:49:33.720 --> 01:49:37.199 and sustain themselves? And can we sustain them? And you know, 2196 01:49:37.560 --> 01:49:39.079 because they're in VSO, they have to be able to 2197 01:49:39.079 --> 01:49:40.680 generate their own intelligence. So do they have the right 2198 01:49:40.720 --> 01:49:44.279 amount of intelligent access to intelligence to the stuff they're 2199 01:49:44.319 --> 01:49:46.279 reporting back? How are we packaging that? And you know, 2200 01:49:47.359 --> 01:49:49.800 my unit got really good because of the way we 2201 01:49:49.800 --> 01:49:52.239 were distributing, and I had Special Forces teams working with 2202 01:49:52.359 --> 01:49:56.279 us as well in all these VSO sites of developing 2203 01:49:56.279 --> 01:50:00.479 a really big battlefield picture of not only the Talib network, 2204 01:50:00.479 --> 01:50:02.399 but who the who the movers were. And from there 2205 01:50:02.399 --> 01:50:04.439 we would hand off the larger target packages to people 2206 01:50:04.439 --> 01:50:05.760 who could go and execute. And whether it was a 2207 01:50:05.800 --> 01:50:08.119 special Air Service or it was you know, our own people, 2208 01:50:08.279 --> 01:50:10.279 our own SMUs and people would show. People would look 2209 01:50:10.279 --> 01:50:14.079 at our intelligence packages and again, take it at face value. 2210 01:50:14.199 --> 01:50:17.119 This came from this group. It's not gold, like, we're 2211 01:50:17.159 --> 01:50:19.880 not just running in there. But it's pretty credible. Let's 2212 01:50:19.960 --> 01:50:21.640 let's follow up. And they would send a two man 2213 01:50:21.680 --> 01:50:23.840 team and they would come and talk or they would say, hey, 2214 01:50:23.880 --> 01:50:25.479 come up here and let's have a conversation. And so 2215 01:50:25.479 --> 01:50:27.800 they would put people on. You know, hey, you're gonna 2216 01:50:27.800 --> 01:50:28.920 go on this raid. We want to get this guy. 2217 01:50:28.960 --> 01:50:31.560 We're gonna come with you. Less risk to us. We 2218 01:50:31.560 --> 01:50:32.800 can still do a job we need to. We have 2219 01:50:32.800 --> 01:50:34.279 better permissions to roll a guy up and you don't 2220 01:50:34.319 --> 01:50:36.039 have to worry about the tension problem. Like, dude, this 2221 01:50:36.079 --> 01:50:40.039 is awesome. So what area were you doing vs? O 2222 01:50:40.159 --> 01:50:46.159 INN in the west Western Afghanistan, farashin dan Harat. We 2223 01:50:46.239 --> 01:50:48.439 had the whole the operating It was about the size 2224 01:50:48.439 --> 01:50:52.840 of West Virginia down into nim Rouse. So this is 2225 01:50:52.880 --> 01:50:55.520 kind of this arc around and then you've got of 2226 01:50:55.520 --> 01:50:59.399 course I ran as your main main intruder. 2227 01:50:59.760 --> 01:51:01.760 Was that That's something you guys had to account for 2228 01:51:01.880 --> 01:51:02.920 or run up against. 2229 01:51:03.119 --> 01:51:06.000 We did. I will say this, And all the time 2230 01:51:06.079 --> 01:51:08.439 that was over there, I never saw some Chechenian fighter. 2231 01:51:08.680 --> 01:51:12.159 We never got no IRGC. Yeah. The gold standar would 2232 01:51:12.199 --> 01:51:14.079 have been to roll up a Quids Force guy like yeah, no, 2233 01:51:14.199 --> 01:51:16.840 we never. I mean I'm sure they were there and collecting. 2234 01:51:16.880 --> 01:51:19.960 I mean, you know the phones that they have over 2235 01:51:20.000 --> 01:51:22.359 there are all Iranian made. You had to assume that 2236 01:51:22.359 --> 01:51:26.359 you were being collected upon. It wasn't like we you know, 2237 01:51:26.439 --> 01:51:32.680 but it was also where we're pretty overt. We're in 2238 01:51:32.720 --> 01:51:34.920 the open of you know, you're living in these villages. 2239 01:51:34.920 --> 01:51:37.800 You're now trying to you know, expand some of the 2240 01:51:37.840 --> 01:51:41.479 security into these areas, even if they didn't necessarily want it. 2241 01:51:43.159 --> 01:51:47.399 So I had to change the mindset of how we 2242 01:51:47.439 --> 01:51:51.199 approached the mission. We had to. We got Dave col 2243 01:51:51.239 --> 01:51:55.720 Collen to come in and give a three day very academic, 2244 01:51:55.800 --> 01:51:58.439 but also because he was he had been a war fighter, 2245 01:51:58.880 --> 01:52:00.560 you know, with with the Australian Army, and he had 2246 01:52:00.560 --> 01:52:02.800 a long he did the actually on Grilla if nobody 2247 01:52:02.800 --> 01:52:04.479 knows that that book, and so we had him come 2248 01:52:04.479 --> 01:52:06.119 in and talk about not only the book. I read 2249 01:52:06.119 --> 01:52:12.960 his book Bloodyear very smark I, and we're like, okay, well, 2250 01:52:12.960 --> 01:52:16.039 if we need to understand, let's get people who've done 2251 01:52:16.039 --> 01:52:18.920 this and can can actually put some stuff against the 2252 01:52:19.039 --> 01:52:23.319 counterinsurgency because that's what it was, and it's hard to grab, 2253 01:52:23.720 --> 01:52:26.640 you know, counter sertacy something that's baked into the Army 2254 01:52:26.680 --> 01:52:30.479 Special Forces playbook. Marsak has now got it. But at 2255 01:52:30.479 --> 01:52:33.920 that point in time, you coin another mistake that was made. 2256 01:52:33.960 --> 01:52:35.479 My opinion is that we tried to make all of 2257 01:52:35.479 --> 01:52:38.079 our armed forces have been able to do coin and say, well, 2258 01:52:38.079 --> 01:52:40.199 it's just dismission, it's just different, anyone can do it. 2259 01:52:40.159 --> 01:52:41.960 It's not true at all. We know that you need 2260 01:52:42.000 --> 01:52:45.199 specialists to do specialists work. You wouldn't have somebody, you know, 2261 01:52:46.000 --> 01:52:48.600 you two how to rebuild a turbo in your car. 2262 01:52:48.760 --> 01:52:51.199 You would go to a specialist, you know, to do that. 2263 01:52:51.680 --> 01:52:54.760 I hope anyway that that's how people would approach it. 2264 01:52:55.520 --> 01:52:57.960 But because of that and you need specialists, we found 2265 01:52:57.960 --> 01:52:59.800 that we had to become a specialist, and we had 2266 01:52:59.800 --> 01:53:02.680 to admit that we didn't know certain things and we 2267 01:53:02.760 --> 01:53:05.600 had to learn. And so I found that the most 2268 01:53:05.680 --> 01:53:09.560 the best people with the best expertises I could, particularly 2269 01:53:09.600 --> 01:53:16.840 when you're when you're talking about counters, curgaency, asymmetric threats, 2270 01:53:16.840 --> 01:53:18.800 which is something different, but you know when you're in 2271 01:53:18.840 --> 01:53:22.239 these environments where you've got this changing scale where you 2272 01:53:22.239 --> 01:53:24.800 could be in full combat at any minute, and it 2273 01:53:25.279 --> 01:53:28.279 did happen in some of these VSO sites. I also 2274 01:53:28.359 --> 01:53:30.359 use the VSO sites as jumping off points for action 2275 01:53:30.399 --> 01:53:33.119 if we do it, because I had now a Ford 2276 01:53:33.159 --> 01:53:35.239 deployed node that could that knew the area and could 2277 01:53:35.239 --> 01:53:37.640 do stuff. And when we talked to people that again, 2278 01:53:37.680 --> 01:53:40.000 like we're talking about rolling someone up. We're like, we've 2279 01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:41.840 already got as force years ready to go. You need 2280 01:53:41.840 --> 01:53:43.199 to send a few people down and we can make 2281 01:53:43.239 --> 01:53:45.079 it happen. So we got really good at having that 2282 01:53:45.159 --> 01:53:47.239 kind of relationship. And because of the relationships I had 2283 01:53:47.279 --> 01:53:50.119 on the strikeforce, these people were still working at Camp 2284 01:53:50.199 --> 01:53:52.199 Alpha and I could just call them and just say, hey, 2285 01:53:52.319 --> 01:53:54.560 we got something going well. Was that at all difficult 2286 01:53:54.560 --> 01:53:55.119 to manage? 2287 01:53:55.199 --> 01:53:57.960 Like sometimes where it's like hey, j sock, you don't 2288 01:53:58.000 --> 01:53:59.960 actually need to be here, like we can handle this. 2289 01:54:01.560 --> 01:54:03.520 You wish that you could invite people into your house. 2290 01:54:03.520 --> 01:54:05.840 Sometimes it doesn't. Those are more interested and like, hey, 2291 01:54:05.840 --> 01:54:07.239 maybe you guys could just take the night off. We 2292 01:54:07.319 --> 01:54:09.520 got this and so you kind of kind of cross 2293 01:54:09.520 --> 01:54:12.600 your arms and go. You get upset, but it it 2294 01:54:12.680 --> 01:54:16.399 generally was complimentary. I didn't have anybody just out of 2295 01:54:16.439 --> 01:54:18.359 the blue just fly into something. If they were gonna 2296 01:54:18.399 --> 01:54:22.119 do something, we're very circumspect about, you know. There was 2297 01:54:22.159 --> 01:54:24.039 there was a good liaison there. And then there will 2298 01:54:24.079 --> 01:54:25.720 also be like, hey, look, if something happens, we need 2299 01:54:25.800 --> 01:54:28.760 we're gonna need we might need help. So if you can, 2300 01:54:29.159 --> 01:54:30.680 if you can put some guys who are if you 2301 01:54:30.720 --> 01:54:32.600 guys can put some guys on standby, that would be 2302 01:54:32.680 --> 01:54:34.359 that would be great. What kind of what kind of 2303 01:54:34.399 --> 01:54:36.760 medical facilities do you have if we have to come here, 2304 01:54:37.479 --> 01:54:39.479 you know, oh, you have special Forces medics. Also, you've 2305 01:54:39.479 --> 01:54:41.720 got people, You've got a surgery you know, based upon 2306 01:54:41.760 --> 01:54:44.880 this army mash unit that's co located with you. Fantastic. 2307 01:54:45.319 --> 01:54:47.359 So those are the kinds of things. They don't know 2308 01:54:47.399 --> 01:54:49.479 everything and everybody that they need to kind of build 2309 01:54:49.479 --> 01:54:51.840 their own network as well as for our support capability. 2310 01:54:51.680 --> 01:54:54.439 And they're if you can do the job and you 2311 01:54:54.479 --> 01:54:56.960 offer something of value, they're gonna take take it. They're 2312 01:54:57.000 --> 01:55:01.680 not gonna just do it ourselves. They're better than that. Yeah, 2313 01:55:01.760 --> 01:55:08.840 team building. Yeah yeah. So I think that the the 2314 01:55:08.840 --> 01:55:13.600 strength of VSO was that we really were trying. The 2315 01:55:13.680 --> 01:55:17.880 difficulty was that we're trying to be good everywhere and 2316 01:55:17.920 --> 01:55:21.840 to we just were running out of kind of patients. 2317 01:55:22.399 --> 01:55:25.680 Even as it was heading into twenty eleven, twenty twelve, 2318 01:55:25.760 --> 01:55:29.800 even though Afghanistan lasted another almost ten years, we were 2319 01:55:29.840 --> 01:55:32.680 throwing things just like trying to make the stuff work, 2320 01:55:32.920 --> 01:55:42.399 and we all served, we all served to make the 2321 01:55:42.399 --> 01:55:46.640 best of that situation. But it was not the direct 2322 01:55:46.640 --> 01:55:48.319 action kind of combat that I had been involved in 2323 01:55:48.319 --> 01:55:51.399 five years earlier. So I think a lot of guys 2324 01:55:51.399 --> 01:55:54.279 were kind of disappointed that we weren't doing that as frequently, 2325 01:55:54.720 --> 01:55:56.199 even though we did get into some action out there. 2326 01:55:56.239 --> 01:55:58.880 For sure, what was sort of your takeaway from the 2327 01:55:58.960 --> 01:56:04.720 VSO experience, Because we've interviewed certainly SF guys, at least 2328 01:56:04.760 --> 01:56:08.920 one seal probably we have had some Marsac guys on, 2329 01:56:09.439 --> 01:56:12.800 but it sounds like or Scott Man we've had on the. 2330 01:56:13.159 --> 01:56:15.840 We've developed it, so yea, yeah, he's I mean, it 2331 01:56:15.920 --> 01:56:17.600 sounds like and he's a heck of a lot more 2332 01:56:17.840 --> 01:56:19.640 versed on this than me. Yeah. Yeah, And I'd love 2333 01:56:19.640 --> 01:56:20.640 to hear your take on it. 2334 01:56:20.680 --> 01:56:23.359 But I mean it sounds like just as we were 2335 01:56:23.439 --> 01:56:25.680 kind of like getting it up and running and starting 2336 01:56:25.680 --> 01:56:27.399 to pay dividends, that they shut it down. 2337 01:56:27.439 --> 01:56:29.439 Well that that's kind of what I was kind of 2338 01:56:29.439 --> 01:56:32.800 alluding to. But that's that's a great way to sum 2339 01:56:32.800 --> 01:56:36.199 it up. And so I kill Colin said, you know, 2340 01:56:36.359 --> 01:56:39.520 counterinsurgency and the warfare that you're you're involved in, Yes, 2341 01:56:39.560 --> 01:56:41.600 it is evolved. You don't want to create more insurgents, 2342 01:56:41.640 --> 01:56:45.960 you want to try and develop more friendly networks than 2343 01:56:46.159 --> 01:56:49.520 bad ones. But honestly, you still if you're not shooting 2344 01:56:49.520 --> 01:56:51.520 people in the face, you're doing it wrong. You're like, 2345 01:56:51.560 --> 01:56:53.399 you have to keep being aggressive. 2346 01:56:52.920 --> 01:56:54.920 And keep the pressure on the bad guys while you're 2347 01:56:54.920 --> 01:56:57.079 building up this sort of civilian infrastructure. 2348 01:56:57.199 --> 01:57:01.640 So in two thousand and nine and ten under Obama, 2349 01:57:01.960 --> 01:57:08.039 we had not only increased the drone warfare permissions, like 2350 01:57:08.079 --> 01:57:10.119 he really opened that up big time. He also opened 2351 01:57:10.159 --> 01:57:12.800 up special operations like being involved all over the place, 2352 01:57:12.800 --> 01:57:15.359 and we you know, I don't want to say it 2353 01:57:15.399 --> 01:57:16.760 was war on the cheap, but it was really like, 2354 01:57:16.920 --> 01:57:18.960 let's just get you know, we're just gonna let the 2355 01:57:19.199 --> 01:57:21.800 dogs loose and and try and put an end to 2356 01:57:21.920 --> 01:57:27.000 this thing. And unfortunately, national level pressure pulled us back. 2357 01:57:27.079 --> 01:57:29.479 Like we had the Taliban on the ropes and we 2358 01:57:29.479 --> 01:57:30.319 were pulling out. 2359 01:57:30.159 --> 01:57:31.920 Of or out of Iraq, And at that point in 2360 01:57:31.960 --> 01:57:34.039 like two ten eleven. 2361 01:57:34.079 --> 01:57:37.119 Yeah, nine, ten eleven, we really had the Taliban on 2362 01:57:37.159 --> 01:57:38.800 the ropes and they were ready to come to negotiating 2363 01:57:38.800 --> 01:57:40.439 table and we kind of get it let up and 2364 01:57:40.479 --> 01:57:42.119 then we just like, okay, let's do vso. And this 2365 01:57:42.239 --> 01:57:44.880 is not saying that that was a bad idea because 2366 01:57:44.920 --> 01:57:47.239 the US Marine Corps had done that very effectively in 2367 01:57:47.319 --> 01:57:50.159 Vietnam with the Hamlet program cap cap yeah, or a 2368 01:57:50.279 --> 01:57:54.720 CAP yeah, the Combined Action program, thank you, and you 2369 01:57:54.720 --> 01:57:56.199 know the Hamlet So you're going in the hamlets and 2370 01:57:56.239 --> 01:57:58.039 then it was very successful, you know, in his thing. 2371 01:57:58.079 --> 01:58:01.479 But this requires maintenance and it requires a long term investment. 2372 01:58:01.960 --> 01:58:07.479 And the population in America was war weary because of Iraq. 2373 01:58:09.359 --> 01:58:11.399 People were kind of well, still, what's going on in Afghanistan? 2374 01:58:11.520 --> 01:58:15.000 Are there? What are we doing? And so yeah, in 2375 01:58:15.079 --> 01:58:16.439 order for that to be effective, it was going to 2376 01:58:16.439 --> 01:58:17.680 take a lot of time, and it was going to 2377 01:58:17.760 --> 01:58:19.800 take you know, probably more investment. And we were just 2378 01:58:19.840 --> 01:58:23.279 sort of looking at like, okay, well when are the 2379 01:58:23.279 --> 01:58:24.960 Afghans going to get hold of this thing and do 2380 01:58:25.000 --> 01:58:26.680 it themselves? And the quite fact that they weren't going 2381 01:58:26.720 --> 01:58:27.159 to do it. 2382 01:58:27.199 --> 01:58:30.199 And I mean the reality is like a VSO project 2383 01:58:30.239 --> 01:58:33.560 that's like a decade long project. That's not that's not 2384 01:58:33.640 --> 01:58:35.199 an election cycle project. 2385 01:58:35.520 --> 01:58:39.359 And we because Americans want it quick, fasting, in a 2386 01:58:39.399 --> 01:58:46.760 hurry and cheap, they picked two, right, can't we just 2387 01:58:46.840 --> 01:58:48.680 use robots to do that? I love it, you know, 2388 01:58:48.800 --> 01:58:52.039 but it just well, I mean, it was very you 2389 01:58:52.079 --> 01:58:54.079 know with the drone program. Programming was sort of like, well, 2390 01:58:54.079 --> 01:58:55.800 we'll just do standoffs and we'll just shoot these guys. 2391 01:58:55.880 --> 01:59:01.079 Well that's that's not balanced with with on the ground 2392 01:59:01.159 --> 01:59:04.680 you know work. And the other problem or challenge in 2393 01:59:05.319 --> 01:59:08.279 VSO is that you're kind of, like the Jay said, 2394 01:59:08.319 --> 01:59:11.760 you're turning over your teams every six to eight months 2395 01:59:11.760 --> 01:59:13.479 and you're having to rebuild these rapports. And there were 2396 01:59:13.479 --> 01:59:15.399 guys who had gone back. You're like, hey, we're now 2397 01:59:15.439 --> 01:59:17.439 back in the Zuricho Valley, we're now back in Shindan. 2398 01:59:17.640 --> 01:59:21.000 But we haven't been here for eighteen months. Things have changed, 2399 01:59:21.000 --> 01:59:23.840 Things have changed, the way we are fighting this war 2400 01:59:23.880 --> 01:59:26.319 have changed. You know. I was on a SIF and 2401 01:59:26.359 --> 01:59:29.239 I was doing I was banging targets every night in Iraq. Well, dude, 2402 01:59:29.239 --> 01:59:33.399 we don't do that here now. Well, got a bad 2403 01:59:33.399 --> 01:59:35.840 guy outside your gate, probably go get him. Well let's 2404 01:59:36.039 --> 01:59:37.560 hang on. We don't want to be too violent. Well 2405 01:59:37.640 --> 01:59:39.039 that's that's what I mean is you got to be 2406 01:59:39.079 --> 01:59:40.880 able to, you know, have that throttle. And I tried 2407 01:59:41.239 --> 01:59:43.880 pretty hard to lean into being able to you know, 2408 01:59:43.920 --> 01:59:47.760 get into the the pacification while also yeah, you know, 2409 01:59:47.960 --> 01:59:48.560 building up the. 2410 01:59:48.600 --> 01:59:51.600 Report another leadership challenge and grabbing them by the collar like, oh, 2411 01:59:51.640 --> 01:59:52.319 hold on a second. 2412 01:59:52.359 --> 01:59:55.760 Well that's when they started saying like, we can't want 2413 01:59:55.760 --> 01:59:58.319 this more than the Afghans do. And I don't know 2414 01:59:58.319 --> 01:59:59.720 if I've got in Afghan it want to do more 2415 01:59:59.720 --> 02:00:04.640 than us? Yeah, you know what I mean? Fuck man? Yeah? 2416 02:00:05.039 --> 02:00:11.239 And and so you know, we we finished that deployment 2417 02:00:11.640 --> 02:00:16.479 UH in March of twenty twelve, nine months. Quite a 2418 02:00:16.560 --> 02:00:21.960 number of guys wounded, nobody killed, thank god. And I 2419 02:00:22.000 --> 02:00:29.520 came back from that and you know, you know, one 2420 02:00:29.560 --> 02:00:32.560 day you're in charge and you're leading, and you're you're 2421 02:00:32.600 --> 02:00:34.359 out there, and then next thing you know, you're sitting 2422 02:00:34.359 --> 02:00:38.239 in a parking a lot and palms wondering why the 2423 02:00:38.239 --> 02:00:41.800 band broke up. Lovely, I didn't even send the twenty 2424 02:00:41.880 --> 02:00:46.039 nine palms. I actually actually ended up going to UH 2425 02:00:46.199 --> 02:00:49.319 let's called Special Operations Training Group in Marine Corps Training, 2426 02:00:49.359 --> 02:00:53.000 which is training mews and UH. I spent a couple 2427 02:00:53.039 --> 02:00:57.560 of years doing training, mus take taking the stuff I'd 2428 02:00:57.600 --> 02:01:01.399 learned in marshaking and helping mws get better both of 2429 02:01:01.479 --> 02:01:03.479 their the way they train and they approach different things. 2430 02:01:03.479 --> 02:01:06.439 And then you know, I also was involved quite a 2431 02:01:06.439 --> 02:01:09.159 bit with with their called stability operations and also inter 2432 02:01:09.279 --> 02:01:12.520 agency operations because my time with with MARSKA had spent 2433 02:01:12.560 --> 02:01:17.159 plenty of time working with people from different NGOs, different 2434 02:01:17.239 --> 02:01:22.000 parts of the United States government, all the most of 2435 02:01:22.039 --> 02:01:24.520 the agencies within it, especially those who were you know, 2436 02:01:24.640 --> 02:01:28.560 in Afghanistan and those who were supporting those j sets, 2437 02:01:28.560 --> 02:01:33.079 because they're they're working all over the place working on 2438 02:01:33.079 --> 02:01:36.079 country clearances, trying to you know, if you do that 2439 02:01:36.119 --> 02:01:38.560 as a regular thing, you assume everyone knows how to 2440 02:01:38.600 --> 02:01:41.840 do that. And then when the larger Marine Corps like, hey, 2441 02:01:41.880 --> 02:01:43.159 we need to get some people in this place, they 2442 02:01:43.159 --> 02:01:45.119 don't even know where to start with doing a country 2443 02:01:45.279 --> 02:01:47.439 Who do we call? Who does the request? Do you 2444 02:01:47.439 --> 02:01:49.239 all even have passports? Oh, that's a good one, and 2445 02:01:49.279 --> 02:01:51.000 we should get those, Like you know, what else have 2446 02:01:51.039 --> 02:01:57.680 you got for us? Like kind of important, like maybe 2447 02:01:57.680 --> 02:01:59.079 would just pump the brakes for a minute on this 2448 02:01:59.159 --> 02:02:04.319 invasion thing you. 2449 02:02:03.359 --> 02:02:06.920 So, was that like a rewarding experience to kind of 2450 02:02:06.960 --> 02:02:09.760 take all these experiences you've had and now you're in 2451 02:02:09.800 --> 02:02:11.119 a training position and sort. 2452 02:02:11.000 --> 02:02:15.600 Of pass some of that along. Yeah. I actually that 2453 02:02:15.720 --> 02:02:17.960 was a part of my career. I really enjoyed. I like, 2454 02:02:18.600 --> 02:02:23.239 I like training, I like teaching or trying to impart. 2455 02:02:25.039 --> 02:02:27.840 And ultimately it's not just to help the unit get better, 2456 02:02:29.479 --> 02:02:31.920 especially if you're getting into tactics, and I'm not, I 2457 02:02:31.960 --> 02:02:34.880 was not. I did enjoy tactics. I did enjoy you know, 2458 02:02:34.920 --> 02:02:37.039 shooting and that kind of thing. I don't mind being 2459 02:02:37.039 --> 02:02:38.760 out of the range and helping people with bartmanship or 2460 02:02:38.760 --> 02:02:41.520 even talk about the ambushment Nette or some others that 2461 02:02:41.960 --> 02:02:45.520 the things I've been a part of to help them understand, 2462 02:02:45.560 --> 02:02:48.119 you know, combat decision making and leadership. But on the 2463 02:02:48.159 --> 02:02:52.920 other side, it's you know, there's there's a lot more 2464 02:02:52.960 --> 02:02:55.880 that you can you can bring and offer people, and 2465 02:02:55.960 --> 02:02:59.439 so I like, I really do like that. I think 2466 02:02:59.479 --> 02:03:04.720 it's a very it's a payoff. And that's not to 2467 02:03:04.760 --> 02:03:07.399 say like why just being on the podium and lecturing. 2468 02:03:07.600 --> 02:03:09.279 You know, you want to you want people to get 2469 02:03:09.319 --> 02:03:11.039 something out of it. But when you bring someone like 2470 02:03:12.680 --> 02:03:14.640 Andrea dou who is a professor at the Nable War 2471 02:03:14.680 --> 02:03:17.439 College who wrote Terrorists, Insurgents, and Militias, which is a 2472 02:03:17.439 --> 02:03:21.680 great academic study of you know, why people are kind 2473 02:03:21.680 --> 02:03:23.079 of the way they are. So before you ever go 2474 02:03:23.119 --> 02:03:25.039 into some of these situations. You kind of look at 2475 02:03:25.880 --> 02:03:28.960 Lashgarry Taiba and these terrorist organizations. Then you look at 2476 02:03:29.000 --> 02:03:31.800 people not necessarily terrorists, and we've we've we've brought, we've 2477 02:03:31.840 --> 02:03:35.640 broad brushed every organization that's bad out there as being terrorists. 2478 02:03:35.680 --> 02:03:40.560 And they in many ways they may have things that 2479 02:03:41.039 --> 02:03:43.800 are traits that kind of align to terrorism. But if 2480 02:03:43.840 --> 02:03:45.800 they're an insurgent or if they're just a militia and 2481 02:03:45.840 --> 02:03:48.199 a lawless land, they're just trying to get something dark. 2482 02:03:49.239 --> 02:03:52.159 Absolutely well. I mean, I may deals with the Taliban 2483 02:03:52.600 --> 02:03:55.119 UH or at least the guys I know who are 2484 02:03:55.119 --> 02:03:58.520 associated with the Taliban UH to stop iding roads so 2485 02:03:58.520 --> 02:04:00.960 we could get something done and they're only even was like, hey, 2486 02:04:01.199 --> 02:04:05.119 you just keep people out of our valley. That was it? Yeah? 2487 02:04:05.159 --> 02:04:09.920 Pretty much. I'm like, was that the problem? Because that's easy? Oh, 2488 02:04:09.960 --> 02:04:13.399 by the way, what do you grow over here? Stuff? 2489 02:04:15.479 --> 02:04:17.520 So who do you sell to? Oh, don't worry about it, 2490 02:04:17.520 --> 02:04:20.720 good guys, dude, you would like, but there's just someugh 2491 02:04:20.880 --> 02:04:23.199 question exactly right do you want to say ideas to 2492 02:04:23.199 --> 02:04:25.159 stop or not? Like, but we've lost you're losing the 2493 02:04:25.159 --> 02:04:27.039 plot here either, like where we're at. So I was 2494 02:04:27.079 --> 02:04:28.439 just like all right, Well, you know you're gonna make 2495 02:04:28.479 --> 02:04:30.560 a deal, and that's just it. And so you know, 2496 02:04:30.560 --> 02:04:33.199 if you're really if you're really looking at in a 2497 02:04:33.359 --> 02:04:38.199 in a straight moral ethical like I can't cross these 2498 02:04:38.239 --> 02:04:44.680 boundaries line you have to be able to you're not 2499 02:04:44.720 --> 02:04:47.600 subjugating your personal code. You're looking at it from the 2500 02:04:47.640 --> 02:04:50.000 perspective like pragmatic pursuit, exactly. 2501 02:04:49.640 --> 02:04:54.800 How do I get this done? And ultimately that's the result. 2502 02:04:55.159 --> 02:04:56.960 You weren't hashing out a piece steel. You were just 2503 02:04:57.000 --> 02:04:59.640 hashing out a little I just wanted piece here or 2504 02:04:59.680 --> 02:05:05.439 at least reduction. So, I mean, Afghanistan was fine when 2505 02:05:05.479 --> 02:05:08.680 I left. I don't know what happened somebody else, Well, no. 2506 02:05:08.680 --> 02:05:10.840 I mean and that does not to castigate anybody who's 2507 02:05:10.840 --> 02:05:13.439 served there or anything that you know has happened. It's 2508 02:05:13.479 --> 02:05:15.680 just because of the rotations that you would have. You 2509 02:05:15.720 --> 02:05:17.399 would just you know, come back and see another guy 2510 02:05:17.439 --> 02:05:19.199 and be like, hey, man, didn't I see you at 2511 02:05:19.199 --> 02:05:20.840 twenty ten? You're like what you been up to since then? 2512 02:05:21.039 --> 02:05:22.520 You know? Jay said, did this that and the other thing? 2513 02:05:22.560 --> 02:05:27.359 And you know we're back. Shouldn't we be done? Like 2514 02:05:27.399 --> 02:05:30.239 shouldn't this be shouldn't we have progressed, so we we 2515 02:05:32.359 --> 02:05:34.520 it's kind of like writing a book where you don't 2516 02:05:34.520 --> 02:05:37.520 have the end in mind. Well, I know you've heard 2517 02:05:37.560 --> 02:05:38.000 it before. 2518 02:05:38.119 --> 02:05:41.279 You know, people say, we weren't in Afghanistan for twenty years. 2519 02:05:41.319 --> 02:05:44.159 We were in Afghanistan for one year twenty times, right. 2520 02:05:44.119 --> 02:05:47.239 But not the same year twenty times. That was the 2521 02:05:47.239 --> 02:05:50.159 other problem is we were like, well and I have 2522 02:05:49.960 --> 02:05:51.720 my Iraq veterans used to say the same thing. Well, 2523 02:05:51.720 --> 02:05:53.520 we've been in combat. It's you know, it's no big deal. 2524 02:05:53.600 --> 02:05:58.239 Like at the sharp end of battle. It is the 2525 02:05:58.359 --> 02:06:01.760 r indeed correcthooting and shooting tactics. How you employed that, 2526 02:06:01.920 --> 02:06:06.600 you know how you fight is definitely you know something 2527 02:06:06.640 --> 02:06:08.720 you can you can overlay. I don't want to use 2528 02:06:08.760 --> 02:06:11.640 the word template. But then after that the environment. You 2529 02:06:11.640 --> 02:06:13.920 have to understand the invoperating environment you're in, in the 2530 02:06:13.960 --> 02:06:16.920 way that that your enemy fights and the way that 2531 02:06:17.119 --> 02:06:19.520 they approach things. And then people say, turn the map around. 2532 02:06:19.560 --> 02:06:21.560 It's not just terrain, its mindset, it's how they look 2533 02:06:21.600 --> 02:06:24.439 at stuff. And so in the VSO thing, we really 2534 02:06:24.479 --> 02:06:26.279 wanted to get a little more deeper into the know 2535 02:06:26.399 --> 02:06:29.600 the psychology and the psyche of what we're doing. Not 2536 02:06:29.640 --> 02:06:31.359 only are we having an effect at the VSO level, 2537 02:06:31.399 --> 02:06:33.560 but you know, who are we fighting against them? What 2538 02:06:33.640 --> 02:06:36.399 are they? What is important to them? And then you 2539 02:06:36.399 --> 02:06:43.960 know my opinion in Afghanistan, we probably should like let 2540 02:06:44.039 --> 02:06:47.600 them be a kingdom and have a king and fiefdoms 2541 02:06:47.640 --> 02:06:51.279 and just rule it medievally, because that's what they understood, 2542 02:06:51.279 --> 02:06:53.479 what they wanted. Well it's and we said, well, no, 2543 02:06:53.600 --> 02:06:56.720 you need Jeffersonian democracy. Yeah, you need a federal system 2544 02:06:56.800 --> 02:06:58.279 and credit all out. Well a lot of people got 2545 02:06:58.359 --> 02:06:59.640 rich off of that, and it wasn't the people, you 2546 02:06:59.640 --> 02:07:02.039 know what I mean, Like, yeah, I remember talking with 2547 02:07:02.079 --> 02:07:11.119 the provincial governor in Harat, very well educated guy, impeccable English, 2548 02:07:12.079 --> 02:07:13.920 and his bailout plan was go to Arkansas where hed 2549 02:07:13.920 --> 02:07:17.880 already bought a house. Like he wasn't gonna stick around. 2550 02:07:17.880 --> 02:07:19.239 And I mean he wanted to help his country, he 2551 02:07:19.279 --> 02:07:22.880 really did, but he already knew what the what was coming, 2552 02:07:22.920 --> 02:07:24.279 what was coming. And then you know, I was talking 2553 02:07:24.279 --> 02:07:26.960 to provincial governor in Shindan. He's like, you all are 2554 02:07:27.039 --> 02:07:28.680 lucky in America that you don't have people on two 2555 02:07:28.680 --> 02:07:30.760 sides of you, countries, two sides of you, i e. 2556 02:07:31.039 --> 02:07:33.319 The Pakistanis and the Iranians meddling in your affairs at 2557 02:07:33.359 --> 02:07:35.880 all time. Yeah, right, never mind the international interest in 2558 02:07:35.880 --> 02:07:40.600 our country, like like we got Russia and you u US, Yeah, 2559 02:07:40.760 --> 02:07:45.439 the Chinese, all these other you know we we're dealing 2560 02:07:45.439 --> 02:07:47.800 with a heck of a lot more on a geopolitical 2561 02:07:47.840 --> 02:07:50.800 scale than people are understanding. And for me, I was 2562 02:07:50.920 --> 02:07:56.159 there like okay, this is way more complex. Yeah, they're 2563 02:07:56.159 --> 02:07:58.399 in a dangerous part of the world and we were 2564 02:07:58.439 --> 02:07:59.880 living in it. Yeah. 2565 02:08:00.479 --> 02:08:03.720 So two years training the MEW and then what was 2566 02:08:03.760 --> 02:08:05.319 the next stop for you? 2567 02:08:05.479 --> 02:08:10.640 Back to Marsak uh where I went to the component 2568 02:08:10.720 --> 02:08:14.479 level as the current operations officer, so I was managing 2569 02:08:16.079 --> 02:08:19.560 with the ops team all of the Marsak operations follow 2570 02:08:20.199 --> 02:08:22.359 So I went from the you know, the regiment. I 2571 02:08:22.399 --> 02:08:25.359 went from battalion to a regiment and then up to that. 2572 02:08:25.760 --> 02:08:35.079 So I did that for uh about only about five months, 2573 02:08:35.079 --> 02:08:38.920 because then I got your mark to be what's called 2574 02:08:38.960 --> 02:08:44.840 a Special Operations Liaison Element Team Leader on the twenty 2575 02:08:44.840 --> 02:08:48.199 second U, which is a special operations cell that was 2576 02:08:48.239 --> 02:08:50.840 attached to the MEW to help them with. 2577 02:08:51.840 --> 02:08:56.880 SOFT like the Marsac integration, well more like MEW Big 2578 02:08:56.920 --> 02:08:59.800 Marine Corps integration with SOFT not just Marscoch. 2579 02:09:00.520 --> 02:09:03.399 You know, say National Mission Force needs to come in 2580 02:09:03.399 --> 02:09:05.680 and land on the aircraft. I would a the carrier. 2581 02:09:05.720 --> 02:09:09.720 I would go in and help manage, you know, the 2582 02:09:09.880 --> 02:09:12.399 L and O stuff between those two. Or if we're 2583 02:09:12.439 --> 02:09:14.119 going to go ashore somewhere and do some training and 2584 02:09:14.119 --> 02:09:15.960 there was a special operations unit there, I would get 2585 02:09:15.960 --> 02:09:18.720 the Marines and at the soft unit together and talk 2586 02:09:18.720 --> 02:09:21.760 about what that training could look like. In our case, 2587 02:09:21.760 --> 02:09:24.800 we got really lucky. I had a great uh new 2588 02:09:24.840 --> 02:09:30.079 commander named Todd Simmons, and he he really gave me 2589 02:09:30.079 --> 02:09:31.760 free reign. He made me member of his of his 2590 02:09:31.840 --> 02:09:34.920 of his staff, and I took him all around the 2591 02:09:34.960 --> 02:09:39.760 soft world, Tampa Bragg. We went overseas to sock your 2592 02:09:39.840 --> 02:09:47.800 sock af uh talked sock sense, got him tied in 2593 02:09:47.840 --> 02:09:51.520 with all of his six and above level people, said 2594 02:09:51.560 --> 02:09:54.960 he could have those direct conversations. And I made sure 2595 02:09:54.960 --> 02:09:57.079 that I shared every piece of information and intelligence that 2596 02:09:57.119 --> 02:09:59.039 I had with him, you know, on an equal standing. 2597 02:09:59.039 --> 02:10:01.800 And so he and I would fairly regular meetings. And 2598 02:10:02.760 --> 02:10:05.960 when we got deployed, we were given the mission to 2599 02:10:06.000 --> 02:10:11.600 support the Liberation of cert Libya, which is Operation Odyssey Lightning, 2600 02:10:11.640 --> 02:10:16.199 which which which I managed and ran with new for 2601 02:10:16.399 --> 02:10:17.199 four months. 2602 02:10:17.760 --> 02:10:21.000 So SIRT we didn't have a the embassy. Of course 2603 02:10:21.199 --> 02:10:23.479 in Tripoli. What were you guys evacuating out of. 2604 02:10:23.399 --> 02:10:27.800 Cert No, the ISIS had taken it over. Yeah, and 2605 02:10:28.000 --> 02:10:31.760 the g NA, the the the militia group that we 2606 02:10:31.760 --> 02:10:34.760 were backing in Tripoli as the officially recognized half tars 2607 02:10:34.840 --> 02:10:36.840 guys half Tars No no, half Tar was on the 2608 02:10:36.880 --> 02:10:41.520 other side of Benghazi. This was like half Tar. We 2609 02:10:41.560 --> 02:10:44.039 actually had to make it, pleaded him to like stay 2610 02:10:44.079 --> 02:10:46.800 out of the fight, even though he was he was 2611 02:10:46.840 --> 02:10:49.960 well ready to get into it. This was the the 2612 02:10:50.079 --> 02:10:53.800 other the recognized government, but they had a group of 2613 02:10:53.840 --> 02:10:56.319 militia guys that they wanted to get into cert and 2614 02:10:56.520 --> 02:11:00.319 take take it back from ISIS. But they needed new 2615 02:11:00.439 --> 02:11:04.039 air support and they needed a lot of different kinds 2616 02:11:04.039 --> 02:11:06.960 of support, and so I helped got the opportunity to 2617 02:11:07.000 --> 02:11:10.760 help manage an entire war plan by way of that. 2618 02:11:11.439 --> 02:11:13.159 So what was that? 2619 02:11:13.359 --> 02:11:16.479 Well, yeah, I mean because now you're, you know, creating 2620 02:11:16.520 --> 02:11:20.479 a warplan or air campaign to support a indigenous ground 2621 02:11:20.520 --> 02:11:23.279 force that you don't really have any control over. 2622 02:11:23.520 --> 02:11:27.159 And they are being managed by soft elements from different 2623 02:11:27.199 --> 02:11:31.840 countries and yeah, so I it was challenging. It's different, 2624 02:11:32.520 --> 02:11:35.119 very challenging, and you're dealing with malicious who do all 2625 02:11:35.199 --> 02:11:38.680 of their operational planning on Twitter. And so that's what 2626 02:11:38.880 --> 02:11:40.840 that's a technique. Hey man, want to get it? I'm 2627 02:11:40.880 --> 02:11:43.680 sure what time? Firefight hashtag? Let's go. You know, like, 2628 02:11:44.199 --> 02:11:47.079 holy I couldn't you couldn't make this stuff up, you know. 2629 02:11:48.439 --> 02:11:50.640 But it's not bullshit either, like they that kind of 2630 02:11:50.680 --> 02:11:51.600 stuff really happened. 2631 02:11:51.640 --> 02:11:53.960 No, really, it really didn't. And I will say that 2632 02:11:53.880 --> 02:11:57.720 the Libyans themselves were very aggressive. It took a while, 2633 02:11:58.079 --> 02:12:04.000 but they they fought. Isis like literally to the last 2634 02:12:04.000 --> 02:12:07.720 man and the new the new support to them is 2635 02:12:07.760 --> 02:12:08.920 what what made it happen? 2636 02:12:09.079 --> 02:12:12.000 Yeah, I mean Certa is a or is it like 2637 02:12:12.039 --> 02:12:15.359 a traditional hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism in Libya? 2638 02:12:15.600 --> 02:12:18.560 Yeah? And and and it's right up on the Med 2639 02:12:18.880 --> 02:12:21.479 in the Bay of Uh you know Bay of Bengazi. 2640 02:12:21.560 --> 02:12:24.199 There little area that marines have some experience at a 2641 02:12:24.199 --> 02:12:26.720 little bit short of Tripoli all that good stuff. You know. 2642 02:12:26.720 --> 02:12:28.640 I guess I it's going back to my roots. You know, 2643 02:12:29.119 --> 02:12:31.720 President O'Bannon probably running the first marine special operations by 2644 02:12:31.720 --> 02:12:34.239 crossing the desert to attack Libya with six six other 2645 02:12:34.319 --> 02:12:39.640 jar heads. So yeah, I mean it, you know, like 2646 02:12:39.800 --> 02:12:42.840 it just now you're working at the operational strategic level 2647 02:12:44.000 --> 02:12:49.079 and taking all the stuff that I'd done to that point, 2648 02:12:49.279 --> 02:12:52.399 not only working with MEWS and understanding of the inner agency, 2649 02:12:52.680 --> 02:12:58.800 and now I'm applying that, you know, with a conventional 2650 02:12:59.000 --> 02:13:03.239 marine force that actually had really creative people on it, 2651 02:13:03.279 --> 02:13:07.960 and Simmons was just like, go get it done. And 2652 02:13:09.439 --> 02:13:12.159 so the I mean, I. 2653 02:13:11.800 --> 02:13:15.640 Your impressions of the air campaign because I'd had I've 2654 02:13:15.680 --> 02:13:19.199 had people tell me there's some very interesting kind of 2655 02:13:19.239 --> 02:13:22.039 takeaways at least from the drone war if they were 2656 02:13:22.079 --> 02:13:27.479 to look at like Raka, Missule sert, Uh, they're all 2657 02:13:27.760 --> 02:13:30.199 a little bit different mh. 2658 02:13:32.119 --> 02:13:35.920 Kind of like they found in Bosnia. Air campaigns cannot 2659 02:13:35.960 --> 02:13:38.439 win award there on their own. Well, the Air Force 2660 02:13:38.439 --> 02:13:40.279 will absolutely tell you that I'm wrong on that, but 2661 02:13:40.359 --> 02:13:43.319 it's I mean, well that's why they exist. It's throp 2662 02:13:43.359 --> 02:13:50.800 bombs and help the US Army. They absolutely can turn 2663 02:13:50.840 --> 02:13:56.239 the tide. Absolutely augment augment. They will augment and if 2664 02:13:56.319 --> 02:14:03.960 if employed correctly, help the momentum and keep the tempo 2665 02:14:04.000 --> 02:14:06.239 going on a ground offensive. And that was the one 2666 02:14:06.239 --> 02:14:07.600 thing that the me you could do is the deck 2667 02:14:07.640 --> 02:14:12.199 cycle was just all day, every day, ten hours straight day, night, 2668 02:14:12.800 --> 02:14:16.640 fixed wing, rotary wing, you name it. And the only 2669 02:14:16.680 --> 02:14:19.239 thing we didn't put was boots on the ground. So 2670 02:14:20.279 --> 02:14:22.560 although God knows they were ready. 2671 02:14:22.600 --> 02:14:25.840 Out of Tunisia or Malta or where were they both, 2672 02:14:26.119 --> 02:14:27.479 we were based on a boat. 2673 02:14:27.520 --> 02:14:29.640 Oh no, shit, yeah, okay, we were on the USSAH. 2674 02:14:29.960 --> 02:14:32.479 We dropped more ordinance than has been dropped in like ages. 2675 02:14:33.840 --> 02:14:35.399 I got a picture somewhere of all the bombs that 2676 02:14:35.399 --> 02:14:38.279 are painted on the superstructure of the boat. We used 2677 02:14:38.359 --> 02:14:40.600 up everything in the magazine and then we had to 2678 02:14:40.640 --> 02:14:43.279 ask for more from Yucom and they were not prepared 2679 02:14:44.159 --> 02:14:45.600 for as much as they were like how many did 2680 02:14:45.640 --> 02:14:48.159 you drop? Like we don't even have that many. Like 2681 02:14:48.239 --> 02:14:50.520 we were just like, send what you got, fin kits whatever. 2682 02:14:50.880 --> 02:14:52.800 So then we were getting them from other theaters and 2683 02:14:52.840 --> 02:14:55.560 I was you know, we're talking to our soft network 2684 02:14:55.880 --> 02:14:58.119 to load stuff onto aircraft to fly at the different 2685 02:14:58.119 --> 02:14:59.760 places for us to send V twenty twos that then 2686 02:14:59.800 --> 02:15:02.760 fly onto them. Yeah, the different combatant commands. Yeah, so 2687 02:15:02.800 --> 02:15:05.840 we're moving, We're we're working across different combatant commands to 2688 02:15:06.000 --> 02:15:09.000 enable this this fight shit. And the other thing is, 2689 02:15:09.039 --> 02:15:11.800 you know it is precision bombing, but you know five 2690 02:15:11.880 --> 02:15:14.760 hundred bomb is not necessarily precise. So if you look 2691 02:15:14.800 --> 02:15:16.399 at the and you don't have your J tax on 2692 02:15:16.439 --> 02:15:20.359 the ground either, well there are J tax controlling from 2693 02:15:20.359 --> 02:15:24.880 other countries, from other countries, and so you'll find that 2694 02:15:24.920 --> 02:15:27.000 the British enthusiasm is a little bit different from ours. 2695 02:15:27.479 --> 02:15:31.359 They're actually pretty aggressive and you know they they they 2696 02:15:31.560 --> 02:15:33.319 they were just like, well, just bring what you got, 2697 02:15:33.319 --> 02:15:35.880 we'll figure it out, you know, and can you make 2698 02:15:35.880 --> 02:15:40.239 it it too? That sounds great like, but but bombing 2699 02:15:40.319 --> 02:15:42.960 is obviously destructive and people are like no ship watching 2700 02:15:43.000 --> 02:15:49.800 really but to your point of Raka of holms, of 2701 02:15:50.399 --> 02:15:53.560 parts of like a Fallujah, like you're clearing operation and 2702 02:15:53.560 --> 02:15:57.000 once you get done, like cert was leveled, like this 2703 02:15:57.119 --> 02:16:01.840 used to be the the gem, the med in where 2704 02:16:01.880 --> 02:16:06.760 people would go to vacation insert And I've been you know, 2705 02:16:06.800 --> 02:16:08.920 I've been boots on the ground in Libya and I've 2706 02:16:08.920 --> 02:16:10.319 looked out over this stuff. I'm like a man, these 2707 02:16:10.319 --> 02:16:11.680 people can get their shit together. They have a great 2708 02:16:11.680 --> 02:16:16.760 surf spot some days. Come on, guys, and so what 2709 02:16:16.840 --> 02:16:20.399 did you really gain by I mean, yes, we beat Isis, hooray, 2710 02:16:21.479 --> 02:16:25.520 but there's there's nothing left right, and there's a tremendous 2711 02:16:25.560 --> 02:16:28.119 amount of casualties. I mean, the Libyans took a lot 2712 02:16:28.159 --> 02:16:32.760 of casualties just because they were really untrainable. We're not 2713 02:16:32.799 --> 02:16:38.040 talking about professional soldiers. Yeah, yeah, so never confused enthusiasm 2714 02:16:38.120 --> 02:16:43.680 with capability, and they they got after it. But you know, 2715 02:16:43.680 --> 02:16:45.440 you want to talk about a CQB technique, they're using 2716 02:16:45.479 --> 02:16:48.920 freaking T sixty two tanks, main guns, just the clear buildings. Yeah, 2717 02:16:50.079 --> 02:16:54.040 it's a method. Not a lot of HR possibility with that, 2718 02:16:54.079 --> 02:16:56.680 but you know, but ultimately they you know, they're like, 2719 02:16:56.680 --> 02:17:01.799 we're getting this thing done. And so you you just 2720 02:17:02.680 --> 02:17:05.520 you look at what air support can can offer, and 2721 02:17:05.600 --> 02:17:09.600 you look at how it's employed, and then you again 2722 02:17:09.639 --> 02:17:13.000 you make those the risk calculations. And we knew exactly 2723 02:17:13.040 --> 02:17:14.600 we had the permissions to drop the bombs we were, 2724 02:17:14.639 --> 02:17:16.239 We knew what the what the pieces would be, and 2725 02:17:16.239 --> 02:17:20.159 it was just sort of like a collateral damage i e. 2726 02:17:20.360 --> 02:17:22.120 Civilians were making sure they're not there. That was that 2727 02:17:22.159 --> 02:17:23.680 was huge in the r O. We there was you know, 2728 02:17:23.760 --> 02:17:27.840 we had to ensure that we were able to employ 2729 02:17:27.920 --> 02:17:31.479 things the right way, But would you know I proportionality, portionality, 2730 02:17:31.799 --> 02:17:33.600 and I was a jay attack as well. You know 2731 02:17:33.680 --> 02:17:36.959 back I was trained at by the army. As a 2732 02:17:36.959 --> 02:17:40.200 matter of fact, it's so tack years ago, and I 2733 02:17:40.239 --> 02:17:45.600 have live controls in combat with with aircraft and just 2734 02:17:45.680 --> 02:17:47.799 the geometries and stuff that goes into calling them in 2735 02:17:47.879 --> 02:17:51.159 a bomb. You know, there's very tragic stories of people 2736 02:17:51.159 --> 02:17:54.559 who've had bombs dropped on ian. Don Parnell talks about that. 2737 02:17:54.639 --> 02:17:57.879 You know, that was you talk about things that you 2738 02:17:57.920 --> 02:18:00.680 know go through the command like, holy shit, this just happened, 2739 02:18:01.440 --> 02:18:04.920 and uh, you know, if it can happen, we got 2740 02:18:04.959 --> 02:18:12.319 to figure out ways to mitigate that. So the way 2741 02:18:12.360 --> 02:18:15.520 those things are employed and how you do it has 2742 02:18:15.559 --> 02:18:20.280 to be measured, It has to be well planned. And 2743 02:18:20.600 --> 02:18:23.799 like there's something called a type three engagement where literally 2744 02:18:23.840 --> 02:18:25.639 everything forward of a line is a free fire zone. 2745 02:18:25.799 --> 02:18:27.479 And we were able to do that in combat. But 2746 02:18:27.559 --> 02:18:28.719 you've got to have a hell of a lot of 2747 02:18:28.719 --> 02:18:32.440 trust in your people because now you're saying anything in 2748 02:18:32.479 --> 02:18:33.879 here is engageable and you can do it. And so 2749 02:18:33.879 --> 02:18:36.159 when when Cobra pilots hear that, they're like, oh my god, 2750 02:18:36.200 --> 02:18:39.399 this is great. This is why I joined the Marine Corps. 2751 02:18:39.799 --> 02:18:40.840 They're like, I wanted to fly. 2752 02:18:41.000 --> 02:18:43.120 Those are like words you don't tell a cobra a 2753 02:18:43.200 --> 02:18:46.680 pilot like now, but we did and they did, Like 2754 02:18:46.760 --> 02:18:49.079 anything in this box yep, anything in this building is 2755 02:18:49.680 --> 02:18:50.120 go ahead. 2756 02:18:50.239 --> 02:18:53.440 Yeah. Ford line of Troops is right here, and they're like, okay, 2757 02:18:53.600 --> 02:18:56.280 holy shit. So they're running toe toe and hell fire 2758 02:18:56.280 --> 02:18:58.559 missiles or not toes because there's wire guided it. But 2759 02:18:58.559 --> 02:19:00.559 they've got hell fire missiles off of off of the 2760 02:19:00.600 --> 02:19:02.879 pods and the machine yea, and they're just putting them 2761 02:19:02.879 --> 02:19:09.000 into windows. Holy shit that night being laized by somebody 2762 02:19:09.000 --> 02:19:12.600 else that you're not talking to. It's a brave New 2763 02:19:12.600 --> 02:19:16.520 world man. Yeah, it get gets sporty, right. 2764 02:19:16.559 --> 02:19:20.639 So yeah, farm liaisons, soft international relationships yep. 2765 02:19:20.760 --> 02:19:22.799 And you have to be able to maintain all of it. Yeah. 2766 02:19:22.840 --> 02:19:28.440 And if it goes bad, where's ivan? So I mean, yeah, 2767 02:19:28.559 --> 02:19:30.639 it's just very I want to leave a lot of 2768 02:19:30.680 --> 02:19:33.159 permissions and respond, but there's a lot of responsibility comes 2769 02:19:33.159 --> 02:19:36.319 with that. And but but it was all on Simmons, 2770 02:19:36.319 --> 02:19:40.319 like he owned the entire thing. Yeah, it's like get 2771 02:19:40.360 --> 02:19:41.479 it done yep. 2772 02:19:42.760 --> 02:19:45.959 And when did that job kind of end or wind 2773 02:19:46.000 --> 02:19:46.520 down for you? 2774 02:19:48.959 --> 02:19:51.120 All of twenty sixteen, and then I came back in 2775 02:19:51.120 --> 02:19:55.639 twenty seventeen, and then I was back at headquarters doing 2776 02:19:55.680 --> 02:19:58.280 my ops job for another part of that year, and 2777 02:19:58.319 --> 02:20:05.719 then I screamed to go to Jaseaber from seventeen. 2778 02:20:05.479 --> 02:20:08.719 Before we go there, because you were at sort of 2779 02:20:08.719 --> 02:20:12.440 this like high level component level at this point with 2780 02:20:12.479 --> 02:20:15.120 your eyes on a lot of things as a plank 2781 02:20:15.200 --> 02:20:19.079 owner of Marsak. You know, the regiment, the component like 2782 02:20:19.120 --> 02:20:21.040 that stuff didn't just come out of nowhere. You must 2783 02:20:21.040 --> 02:20:22.360 have seen all of it get built. 2784 02:20:22.680 --> 02:20:24.799 I did, but remember that I was kind of toggling 2785 02:20:24.840 --> 02:20:27.719 back and forth. So these things were happening concurrently right right. 2786 02:20:27.760 --> 02:20:29.440 There was a lot of stuff I wasn't I was 2787 02:20:29.479 --> 02:20:32.280 in the room for everything that no, no, I understand. 2788 02:20:32.440 --> 02:20:35.399 But I mean, my question really is like how did 2789 02:20:35.399 --> 02:20:38.959 Marsock evolve over the years, Like from where it began 2790 02:20:39.040 --> 02:20:41.440 to where you were at that point. What were like 2791 02:20:41.479 --> 02:20:44.559 the big changes and big evolutionary steps. You saw the 2792 02:20:44.680 --> 02:20:45.799 organization make. 2793 02:20:46.239 --> 02:20:49.840 Well, getting their own compound and building was huge, so 2794 02:20:50.000 --> 02:20:53.479 having a headquarters that was dedicated was you know, and 2795 02:20:54.280 --> 02:21:00.440 at the same time they were really developing the selection 2796 02:21:00.760 --> 02:21:05.399 and training process and the operator course what they call 2797 02:21:05.440 --> 02:21:09.760 it TC. So it was great at being a forced 2798 02:21:09.760 --> 02:21:11.600 guy and being able to come into Marstock right out 2799 02:21:11.600 --> 02:21:13.719 of the gate. But we didn't. We got grandfather did 2800 02:21:13.719 --> 02:21:17.159 and that's what they call it, right, And we all 2801 02:21:17.200 --> 02:21:20.959 actually asked like, hey, shouldn't we go to selection, like 2802 02:21:20.959 --> 02:21:22.760 like everybody in Delta goes to the selection. Like, we 2803 02:21:22.840 --> 02:21:24.319 were like, shouldn't we all do this? And they're like, 2804 02:21:24.360 --> 02:21:30.520 we get it, but you're proven as forced guys and 2805 02:21:30.799 --> 02:21:33.440 you're in. So we were like, but there's probably some 2806 02:21:33.520 --> 02:21:35.520 dudes that shouldn't be here. And I probably could say 2807 02:21:35.520 --> 02:21:39.040 that about myself, right, Like, you're just like that that 2808 02:21:39.079 --> 02:21:41.000 process needed to be developed, and they did a good 2809 02:21:41.040 --> 02:21:42.639 They've done a great job with that. And John Daily 2810 02:21:42.719 --> 02:21:45.879 is well with that quite quite significantly. You know, there's 2811 02:21:45.879 --> 02:21:48.559 a lot of people who do that, but he he 2812 02:21:48.639 --> 02:21:50.319 definitely got the chops, not only from his time in 2813 02:21:50.360 --> 02:21:53.559 the debt, but also you know in Marsock proper and 2814 02:21:53.680 --> 02:21:56.360 John Daily taught me how to do commanded. I think 2815 02:21:56.360 --> 02:21:58.120 he still works there. Actually he does, he does, and 2816 02:21:58.479 --> 02:21:59.959 that's one of the reasons it works is because he 2817 02:22:00.000 --> 02:22:04.079 he's a continuity. He's a long long standing member, right, 2818 02:22:04.719 --> 02:22:10.200 So they that was a big one. Becoming regionally focused 2819 02:22:10.280 --> 02:22:12.360 was a big one. So that you mean we weren't 2820 02:22:12.479 --> 02:22:16.120 just all all in on Afghanistan. I still think we 2821 02:22:16.120 --> 02:22:20.879 should have pursued our direct action side of stuff. I 2822 02:22:20.959 --> 02:22:24.440 believe that we should have made it made him Marck 2823 02:22:24.479 --> 02:22:29.520 got very involved in Somalia too, didn't that. Yeah, I 2824 02:22:31.239 --> 02:22:34.639 think we should have pushed a little harder to get 2825 02:22:34.680 --> 02:22:36.959 into Jaysock with a with an operational arm That may 2826 02:22:36.959 --> 02:22:39.760 be coming at some point, but it's been talked about 2827 02:22:39.799 --> 02:22:40.879 and shelved many times. 2828 02:22:41.159 --> 02:22:42.600 What do you think that would be? Would that be 2829 02:22:42.639 --> 02:22:45.079 like an HR capability or what do you say? 2830 02:22:45.120 --> 02:22:47.600 Well, you've already got to two two s m us 2831 02:22:47.600 --> 02:22:50.280 that that that that run that, and they would just 2832 02:22:50.280 --> 02:22:52.479 be more in the quiver. You know, it would be another, 2833 02:22:52.559 --> 02:22:55.840 I mean a third force you need. If you're going 2834 02:22:55.879 --> 02:22:57.920 to have rating forces, then you need to have flexibility 2835 02:22:57.920 --> 02:22:59.559 to be in different places at the same time. And 2836 02:22:59.639 --> 02:23:02.440 I mean not getting too deep into the TTPs, but 2837 02:23:04.120 --> 02:23:08.559 there's a lot of horsepower that goes into spinning up 2838 02:23:09.479 --> 02:23:13.200 that stuff, and it's taxing on the headquarters, it's taxing 2839 02:23:13.200 --> 02:23:14.559 on the unit that goes and does it. And then 2840 02:23:14.559 --> 02:23:17.239 you've got to have reserves to be able to you know, 2841 02:23:17.639 --> 02:23:23.239 continually maintain and so I mean we all came from 2842 02:23:23.239 --> 02:23:25.760 second force or Force recon. For the most part, we 2843 02:23:25.840 --> 02:23:27.920 were all direct action guys. That's what we were trained 2844 02:23:27.920 --> 02:23:29.159 to do. And then they were like, okay, we'll be 2845 02:23:29.159 --> 02:23:31.799 fit guys. And it's sort of like that's a hard pivot. 2846 02:23:32.879 --> 02:23:35.719 So Bartak got really good about doing that and diversifying 2847 02:23:35.799 --> 02:23:37.719 the training and diversifying the way they did that. They 2848 02:23:37.760 --> 02:23:40.360 got in They also developed a specific kind of eighteen 2849 02:23:40.399 --> 02:23:44.719 alpha officer team leader training program. I think they should 2850 02:23:44.719 --> 02:23:47.639 probably expand that a little bit more into the staffing 2851 02:23:47.799 --> 02:23:52.000 area because I think that's what makes like USUSAK Warcom 2852 02:23:52.000 --> 02:23:55.600 for that matter of Jaysock definitely is people as they 2853 02:23:56.319 --> 02:24:00.639 complete commands, then they go into staff's professional development exactly 2854 02:24:00.719 --> 02:24:03.000 and they can take kind of the thing that I 2855 02:24:03.040 --> 02:24:05.280 was doing ad Hawk as I went through my career. 2856 02:24:05.319 --> 02:24:08.360 They should be looking at building officers who were doing that. 2857 02:24:08.399 --> 02:24:10.239 And that's not to say they are earmarked people that 2858 02:24:10.239 --> 02:24:13.840 they're but we have yet to have in Marsak, even 2859 02:24:13.840 --> 02:24:17.040 though it's been around for twenty years, a homegrown guy 2860 02:24:17.040 --> 02:24:19.319 who went through selection and has now led the unit. 2861 02:24:19.360 --> 02:24:22.680 That's going to take a while, right right, So in 2862 02:24:23.200 --> 02:24:25.000 SF for the range of regement that would be unheard of. 2863 02:24:26.200 --> 02:24:29.799 Now yeah, yeah, you just wouldn't have someone commanding the 2864 02:24:29.840 --> 02:24:32.360 rage regiment. It was not starting as a arranger. Yeah, 2865 02:24:32.360 --> 02:24:37.840 there's no way that's that's the same way. So we've 2866 02:24:37.879 --> 02:24:41.239 got some growing still to do. But that diversification was big, 2867 02:24:42.520 --> 02:24:46.520 and then MARSAC has really leaned to equipment, It really 2868 02:24:46.639 --> 02:24:52.959 leaned into training is very adaptive. The training they have 2869 02:24:53.000 --> 02:24:55.639 a no kidding G seven which is exercise and plant 2870 02:24:55.719 --> 02:24:58.760 and exercise and training, not just selection and training over 2871 02:24:58.799 --> 02:25:01.000 here at the schoolhouse, but also so like no kidding, 2872 02:25:01.479 --> 02:25:04.479 how they train units to deploy and it's it is 2873 02:25:04.520 --> 02:25:08.239 iterative and it's also something they evaluate and make changes 2874 02:25:08.280 --> 02:25:10.760 too to make better. So they've done a really tremendous 2875 02:25:10.840 --> 02:25:13.680 job with that as well. And the intelligent section of 2876 02:25:13.920 --> 02:25:17.479 mars soaks is really quite good, and they've got special 2877 02:25:17.520 --> 02:25:23.120 activities and they've got all kinds of imagery specialists. I 2878 02:25:23.120 --> 02:25:25.760 would like to see that be less sort of hey 2879 02:25:25.760 --> 02:25:27.120 you surf here, now you go somewhere else. I'd like 2880 02:25:27.159 --> 02:25:29.360 them to keep them there. But the Marine Corps really 2881 02:25:29.959 --> 02:25:31.479 more like, no, you can do some time here. 2882 02:25:31.319 --> 02:25:33.079 In the world, like they should have their own Reki 2883 02:25:33.200 --> 02:25:37.520 or Afo element exactly standing and it just does its 2884 02:25:37.520 --> 02:25:40.159 own it does its own thing, and it's and it's 2885 02:25:40.239 --> 02:25:44.559 so there's but but Marsac has has has really developed 2886 02:25:44.719 --> 02:25:45.600 in that capacity. 2887 02:25:45.840 --> 02:25:48.120 And the other thing that got really good at was 2888 02:25:48.159 --> 02:25:52.799 they invested in psychology and having psychologists on hand for 2889 02:25:53.159 --> 02:25:56.239 people coming back from war and and you know, you 2890 02:25:56.319 --> 02:25:59.959 talked about it with with Nate from Valhalla. You know, 2891 02:26:00.120 --> 02:26:07.399 the stigma of mental the burdens that you carry around. 2892 02:26:07.399 --> 02:26:09.399 You know, we talked about it at dinner. There's only 2893 02:26:09.440 --> 02:26:10.920 so much stuff you could put in the rucksack till 2894 02:26:10.920 --> 02:26:13.319 you finally fall over. You can carry for a while. 2895 02:26:13.719 --> 02:26:16.840 I'm pretty tough, but after a while it's just gonna 2896 02:26:16.840 --> 02:26:19.479 get too much. And so they did a great, really 2897 02:26:19.479 --> 02:26:21.200 good job of having that as an available thing and 2898 02:26:22.000 --> 02:26:25.639 no stigma. You just wanted down and have a couch trip. Yeah, 2899 02:26:25.680 --> 02:26:26.920 it's that. You know. 2900 02:26:27.000 --> 02:26:29.879 The word that gets used all the time is like resiliency. 2901 02:26:30.760 --> 02:26:33.120 The thing is like these guys are resilient. They did 2902 02:26:33.159 --> 02:26:36.440 like twelve deployments, Like they're super resilient people, Like. 2903 02:26:37.959 --> 02:26:41.319 They need a different type of help. It's not just resiliency, right, 2904 02:26:42.639 --> 02:26:51.280 and they they the person carrying that to bring someone 2905 02:26:51.319 --> 02:26:54.200 home from a deployment and be like, Okay, we're sending 2906 02:26:54.239 --> 02:26:58.159 you to the schoolhouse for a break. Being a selection 2907 02:26:58.200 --> 02:27:01.440 and training is not a break, right. That's you're busy, 2908 02:27:01.639 --> 02:27:03.920 and so now you're not at home all the time 2909 02:27:03.959 --> 02:27:06.600 and you're doing you're running selection courses and you're an 2910 02:27:06.639 --> 02:27:09.200 operator training courses nine months long. I mean, you're you're 2911 02:27:09.520 --> 02:27:11.120 a lot of the CODs got to run that. 2912 02:27:11.159 --> 02:27:13.239 A lot of the SF guys will tell you that 2913 02:27:13.319 --> 02:27:16.239 they're away from their families more often when they're running 2914 02:27:16.239 --> 02:27:18.520 those selection and training courses than when they're on a 2915 02:27:18.559 --> 02:27:18.959 no DA. 2916 02:27:19.479 --> 02:27:21.399 That was how I that. That was how it was 2917 02:27:21.399 --> 02:27:23.959 for my family when I was at aaRSs, the is 2918 02:27:24.000 --> 02:27:26.760 AOI s we were, you know, we were I was 2919 02:27:26.799 --> 02:27:28.639 not in the fleet. Yeah, but you were busy. But 2920 02:27:28.719 --> 02:27:31.280 I was training for reconnaissance courses a year and they're 2921 02:27:31.319 --> 02:27:33.559 ten weeks long and in between. Now you've got to 2922 02:27:33.559 --> 02:27:36.520 plan everything for each course to make sure that you 2923 02:27:36.559 --> 02:27:38.280 got your air support and all your training areas and 2924 02:27:38.319 --> 02:27:41.200 AMMO and everything else. I mean, it's it was a 2925 02:27:41.200 --> 02:27:45.040 big lift working on Sundays and you're supposed to be 2926 02:27:45.280 --> 02:27:47.040 away from the fleet. You know, you're not right, You're 2927 02:27:47.040 --> 02:27:51.239 not operation. It's not a break. So so I hope 2928 02:27:51.239 --> 02:27:52.840 that helped answer that. But I mean, you know, I 2929 02:27:53.079 --> 02:27:57.360 think that the processes and you know, we maybe put 2930 02:27:57.360 --> 02:28:02.239 a little too much marine stuff into it, but it worked. Yeah. 2931 02:28:02.559 --> 02:28:06.959 So then tell us about this position that you screened for. 2932 02:28:07.239 --> 02:28:11.959 I was. I was the deputy director of Operations for 2933 02:28:12.079 --> 02:28:23.200 Naval Special Warfare Development Group, and they marsh Hawk, the 2934 02:28:23.200 --> 02:28:29.239 Marine Corps and Navy Special Warfare really large, wanting to 2935 02:28:29.280 --> 02:28:36.159 have more inter inter service cooperation, cooperation and work, and 2936 02:28:36.239 --> 02:28:42.840 so they're looking for an end free assistant OPSO to 2937 02:28:43.280 --> 02:28:47.360 work with the unit, and they wanted a Marine and 2938 02:28:47.360 --> 02:28:48.799 me and some guys went up there and screened and 2939 02:28:48.840 --> 02:28:53.600 they picked me. So I'm not sure. 2940 02:28:54.319 --> 02:28:57.280 That's pretty cool. Yeah, so pretty cool opportunity to have. 2941 02:28:58.200 --> 02:29:02.000 And I was there for almost five years. Wow, that's 2942 02:29:02.000 --> 02:29:03.479 a long run too, it is. 2943 02:29:03.520 --> 02:29:07.319 It was my last assignment in the Corps. Soon I 2944 02:29:07.319 --> 02:29:07.920 did not get. 2945 02:29:07.760 --> 02:29:11.600 The Talian command, so I pivoted as a lieutenant colonel too. 2946 02:29:13.079 --> 02:29:16.200 So at this point you're pretty like intimately involved in 2947 02:29:16.600 --> 02:29:20.360 mission planning for the national mission for US. 2948 02:29:21.719 --> 02:29:26.760 Yeah, and you're on standby and you're there for you know, 2949 02:29:28.280 --> 02:29:31.120 not just working there, but also doing other projects within 2950 02:29:31.319 --> 02:29:34.799 the you know, once you're behind the wire, you're you're 2951 02:29:34.879 --> 02:29:36.440 kind of free help. Also to Jay Socker, if they 2952 02:29:36.440 --> 02:29:38.040 need somebody, they can call you in and say, okay, 2953 02:29:38.079 --> 02:29:40.799 we need this mission and someone to come help without 2954 02:29:40.799 --> 02:29:43.200 with that, or need somebody to go to this country 2955 02:29:43.239 --> 02:29:47.319 and have a conversation, right right. So I had a 2956 02:29:47.319 --> 02:29:50.040 lot of flexibility too, and I worked. I worked. One 2957 02:29:50.040 --> 02:29:51.840 of my portfolios was working with a lot of foreign 2958 02:29:52.639 --> 02:29:59.799 soft equivalents British Canadians, French, Australians, so that that was 2959 02:29:59.799 --> 02:30:01.040 all interesting Germans. 2960 02:30:01.840 --> 02:30:05.879 Was that to coordinate like training or operational stuff both? 2961 02:30:06.079 --> 02:30:12.000 Yeah, yeah, depending on what we were doing, because some 2962 02:30:12.040 --> 02:30:17.000 of those countries have different permissions and different relationships with 2963 02:30:17.159 --> 02:30:19.719 countries that we might want to go work in, but 2964 02:30:19.760 --> 02:30:23.319 we don't necessarily possess the same you know exactly relationship. 2965 02:30:23.399 --> 02:30:27.280 Yeah, they have different access and sometimes radically different roes. 2966 02:30:28.280 --> 02:30:29.040 Impressively, So. 2967 02:30:31.000 --> 02:30:37.040 Yeah, yeah, I so from I mean, you were there 2968 02:30:37.079 --> 02:30:42.200 for quite a while, I guess first off, like any 2969 02:30:42.520 --> 02:30:47.079 anything that's like jumps out at you, any like memorable experiences. 2970 02:30:48.120 --> 02:30:51.280 Well, I mean the whole. I equate it to working 2971 02:30:51.319 --> 02:30:55.200 as an offensive coordinator for an NFL team, and so 2972 02:30:55.280 --> 02:31:01.239 you're always practicing, you're always doing stuff. I can't get 2973 02:31:01.239 --> 02:31:09.040 too deep into the actual details of operations for obvious reason. Sure, 2974 02:31:09.479 --> 02:31:13.120 never mind the people who are there, but I will 2975 02:31:13.120 --> 02:31:20.799 say the resourcing, the equipment, the access permissions second to none. 2976 02:31:21.520 --> 02:31:27.520 Their ability to to adapt and change not only their 2977 02:31:27.559 --> 02:31:31.079 tactics but the way they approach things is truly impressive, 2978 02:31:33.600 --> 02:31:39.440 just based upon who they are. I mean, Vice President 2979 02:31:39.440 --> 02:31:42.479 Pence came and visited, so we got to see him, 2980 02:31:42.639 --> 02:31:45.760 and there was always dvs and people that we were, 2981 02:31:45.840 --> 02:31:50.000 you know, doing they call him dogg and ponies, but capabilities, demonstrations, 2982 02:31:50.000 --> 02:31:51.559 things like that, so that, you know, that was kind 2983 02:31:51.559 --> 02:31:55.079 of interesting. Operationally, Yes, there were people deployed all over 2984 02:31:55.120 --> 02:31:59.760 the place. I mean, certainly the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Everyone 2985 02:31:59.879 --> 02:32:02.559 was integraly involved in that. By that time, I was 2986 02:32:02.600 --> 02:32:08.920 actually starting my my glide slope out of the out 2987 02:32:08.920 --> 02:32:11.040 of the Marine Corps. Although I was still still there, 2988 02:32:11.079 --> 02:32:14.959 it was still plugged in. But like Scott Man's book 2989 02:32:15.079 --> 02:32:17.479 Pineapple Express, like I was, I was involved in some 2990 02:32:17.639 --> 02:32:20.760 periphery as part of that as well as what I 2991 02:32:20.840 --> 02:32:22.879 was doing with you know, while I was still on 2992 02:32:22.920 --> 02:32:25.280 active duty, and so I had to straddle this line 2993 02:32:25.280 --> 02:32:27.239 of kind of you know, being able to see all 2994 02:32:27.280 --> 02:32:29.479 of that unfold, you know, in real time was not 2995 02:32:29.520 --> 02:32:32.719 only fascinating but also tragic. It's not like we could 2996 02:32:32.760 --> 02:32:34.319 see Ibby Gate was gonna happen, but you just you 2997 02:32:34.479 --> 02:32:37.000 just watching this chaos and just trying to We're all 2998 02:32:37.000 --> 02:32:39.040 sifting through tons of information trying to figure out like, 2999 02:32:39.040 --> 02:32:42.079 what's what this thing gonna look like and how it 3000 02:32:42.239 --> 02:32:44.879 just it took. It took everyone by surprise. I'm not 3001 02:32:44.920 --> 02:32:46.840 gonna lie. I mean, you should be no surprise that 3002 02:32:47.000 --> 02:32:49.479 kind of the Afghanistan was gonna fall the way that 3003 02:32:49.520 --> 02:32:52.639 they did. But the fact that we were just so 3004 02:32:52.799 --> 02:32:56.719 on our heels, particularly from Washington down that was that 3005 02:32:56.840 --> 02:33:00.040 was a difficult thing to work through. One of the 3006 02:33:00.159 --> 02:33:03.520 things that I was there under two presidential administrations, so 3007 02:33:03.680 --> 02:33:06.200 I got to got to work with very different sides 3008 02:33:06.239 --> 02:33:09.959 of the National Security Council as well. 3009 02:33:10.399 --> 02:33:12.280 One of the things that I heard, and I'd be 3010 02:33:12.319 --> 02:33:15.280 interested to hear your thoughts, was that you know, the 3011 02:33:15.399 --> 02:33:18.360 US military, including like the Jaysawk elements, at least for 3012 02:33:18.399 --> 02:33:21.680 a time weren't really allowed to go outside the wire 3013 02:33:21.719 --> 02:33:23.879 on these rescue missions, and it was really like the 3014 02:33:23.920 --> 02:33:26.280 Germans and the Brits and others that were able to. 3015 02:33:26.399 --> 02:33:28.159 Yeah, there was there was a little bit of hamstringing 3016 02:33:28.200 --> 02:33:29.639 get after. Yeah there was. There was a little bit 3017 02:33:29.639 --> 02:33:33.040 of hamstringing in that. I think everyone was frustrated with that. 3018 02:33:33.079 --> 02:33:36.200 It makes me very frustrated right now to hear that 3019 02:33:37.360 --> 02:33:39.760 Chris Donna, who was the last man out of Afghanistan, 3020 02:33:39.799 --> 02:33:45.280 he was, you know, storied career, that he would even 3021 02:33:45.280 --> 02:33:48.520 be smeared that somehow he didn't do enough or the 3022 02:33:48.600 --> 02:33:50.639 right thing. You think he went above and beyond. I 3023 02:33:50.639 --> 02:33:53.879 think every every experience I had with Christanna who working 3024 02:33:53.920 --> 02:33:57.120 with him, especially when he was the DSO or the 3025 02:33:57.200 --> 02:33:59.639 d O, the director of Special Operations in the Pentagon, 3026 02:33:59.719 --> 02:34:02.079 and the work that I did, you know, with some 3027 02:34:02.120 --> 02:34:04.600 of these missions that we had to run, and the 3028 02:34:04.920 --> 02:34:07.440 experiences I've had with him, you know, prior to that, 3029 02:34:07.559 --> 02:34:10.879 and watching what he was doing Underrundy. Absolutely, he's the 3030 02:34:10.920 --> 02:34:14.159 tea is the kind of leader. There's a reason they 3031 02:34:14.200 --> 02:34:16.360 gave me a second airport. Like people would jump out 3032 02:34:16.360 --> 02:34:17.719 of airplanes for Chris Donnie. 3033 02:34:18.319 --> 02:34:20.639 Yeah, I mean I think the military has to take 3034 02:34:20.639 --> 02:34:23.239 its lump sometimes, but in this case they really did 3035 02:34:23.239 --> 02:34:24.680 get handed like a big bag of shit. 3036 02:34:24.760 --> 02:34:27.120 Yeah, well it was more like it was a bag 3037 02:34:27.159 --> 02:34:29.159 of shit with the bottom being a callander. So it 3038 02:34:29.200 --> 02:34:30.760 was just like just everywhere. 3039 02:34:30.399 --> 02:34:32.360 And the State Department was in charge of the whole 3040 02:34:32.440 --> 02:34:35.639 damn thing, notionally if nothing else that had never gone well. 3041 02:34:35.760 --> 02:34:38.239 It never was a knee Radioshimoto said the same thing 3042 02:34:38.239 --> 02:34:41.920 when he's talking about Eagle Claw. Yeah, right, so it 3043 02:34:41.959 --> 02:34:43.719 has never gone well. And I went to the high 3044 02:34:43.840 --> 02:34:49.479 risk course at Foggy Bottom where the State Department sends 3045 02:34:49.520 --> 02:34:55.040 their diplomats in case they're going into really difficult spots, 3046 02:34:55.120 --> 02:34:57.959 and just their mindset is completely different. Are we not 3047 02:34:58.000 --> 02:34:59.959 having the State dinner tonight? No, a fucking bomb just 3048 02:35:00.040 --> 02:35:02.879 and off in the front yard. But I have so 3049 02:35:02.959 --> 02:35:07.520 much wine, Like different world. It just but the mindset 3050 02:35:07.559 --> 02:35:11.040 is completely different. And we we deliberately brought military people 3051 02:35:11.079 --> 02:35:12.799 into that course so that they could get a flavor 3052 02:35:12.840 --> 02:35:17.120 of like neo planning and Moli ship all that other stuff. Yeah, 3053 02:35:17.159 --> 02:35:18.840 And there was just moments like after, you know, at night, 3054 02:35:18.920 --> 02:35:20.200 I go out with the rest of the you know, 3055 02:35:20.280 --> 02:35:21.760 Jaysaw guys, and other dudes, and we said down and 3056 02:35:21.799 --> 02:35:25.840 we're like, what where are we? Like? Is this this 3057 02:35:25.920 --> 02:35:26.639 is how they do this? 3058 02:35:27.239 --> 02:35:30.920 Well, as we were saying earlier, the priorities are drastically different. 3059 02:35:31.319 --> 02:35:35.360 Yes, a fantastic book to read is The Ugly American. 3060 02:35:35.959 --> 02:35:39.360 And if you know that that's true. It's a fictional, 3061 02:35:39.559 --> 02:35:47.040 fictional account of basically the French and US relationship and 3062 02:35:47.079 --> 02:35:51.840 involvement in Vietnam in the fifties, and all the tenants 3063 02:35:51.840 --> 02:35:56.319 in there are absolutely true, just as the guy writes. 3064 02:35:56.479 --> 02:35:57.959 And I'll just leave it at that. But you just 3065 02:35:57.959 --> 02:35:59.799 read that and you're like, Okay, I want to understand 3066 02:35:59.840 --> 02:36:02.879 how we got here, Like what's this? Is it? And 3067 02:36:02.879 --> 02:36:04.399 it's and it's been in the mindset for I mean, 3068 02:36:04.399 --> 02:36:06.879 even their diplomatic security officers who I would go and 3069 02:36:06.879 --> 02:36:09.600 do work with and we would train with different, uh 3070 02:36:09.920 --> 02:36:11.639 different things in case we had they do an embassy 3071 02:36:11.680 --> 02:36:14.479 reinforcement not only has marines with the MEW, but also 3072 02:36:15.200 --> 02:36:18.399 bringing in small teams is just part of whatever whatever 3073 02:36:18.440 --> 02:36:21.959 the the mission happened to be. They'd be like, yeah, 3074 02:36:22.000 --> 02:36:23.719 well we kind of got to deal with uh, the 3075 02:36:23.719 --> 02:36:26.319 ambassador and we kind of got to you know, the stuff. 3076 02:36:26.360 --> 02:36:30.920 Those DSS guys deal with is off the wall sometimes. 3077 02:36:30.559 --> 02:36:34.479 And some of them have been in some incredibly dangerous 3078 02:36:34.520 --> 02:36:38.719 situations and performed wonderfully. Like I'm not discounting anybody. 3079 02:36:38.799 --> 02:36:41.760 They've like been in armed standoffs with the host nation 3080 02:36:42.000 --> 02:36:44.200 in some cases and that shit never makes for the. 3081 02:36:44.159 --> 02:36:46.319 News, of course. And they've been in gunfights. I mean, 3082 02:36:46.319 --> 02:36:48.639 they're the only law enforcement officer who has jurisdiction in 3083 02:36:48.680 --> 02:36:52.920 all over the world, not the embassy. Yeah, yeah, for sure. 3084 02:36:53.239 --> 02:36:56.079 And it's it's the stuff. I mean, I was looking 3085 02:36:56.120 --> 02:36:57.559 at DS's pretty heavy to get, you know. I was like, 3086 02:36:57.639 --> 02:36:58.760 it's like a pretty cool job. 3087 02:37:00.559 --> 02:37:03.760 They have like investigative authorities over the embassy and the 3088 02:37:03.799 --> 02:37:04.680 personnel there. 3089 02:37:04.959 --> 02:37:08.719 And do a lot of passport uh fraud controlled Yeah yeah, yeah, No, 3090 02:37:08.760 --> 02:37:11.000 that's a pretty diverse, pretty diverse portfolio. 3091 02:37:11.079 --> 02:37:13.399 Those guys get worked, though, they do. They get worked. 3092 02:37:13.399 --> 02:37:17.799 I you mentioned Pompeo. The DSS guys had to backfill 3093 02:37:17.879 --> 02:37:20.719 his whole security detail after he was the VP. 3094 02:37:21.280 --> 02:37:24.120 Or No, I'm not thinking I cannot Pence Pompeo. Yeah, 3095 02:37:24.200 --> 02:37:28.440 but but but I I can only imagine. I can 3096 02:37:28.479 --> 02:37:30.920 only imagine being on Hillary Clinton's detail. She's like, I'm 3097 02:37:30.920 --> 02:37:32.200 going to get out here to hear square and go 3098 02:37:32.200 --> 02:37:35.000 out for a walk. Yeah what no, ma'am, what did 3099 02:37:35.040 --> 02:37:37.760 you say? And you gotta let it happen. 3100 02:37:39.959 --> 02:37:42.479 But maybe she's just gonna get flowers on her sniper fire. 3101 02:37:42.639 --> 02:37:44.879 That might happen, you know, I know, Hey, come on, 3102 02:37:45.000 --> 02:37:45.319 we can. 3103 02:37:45.280 --> 02:37:51.520 Deep dive a little more burbon, we can, you know, yeah, 3104 02:37:51.559 --> 02:37:55.399 but so but I digress. Well, but you know the 3105 02:37:55.479 --> 02:37:57.479 other thing is that you're really tied into all these 3106 02:37:57.559 --> 02:38:00.479 these these high level decisions, and you're and you you 3107 02:38:00.559 --> 02:38:04.159 kind of do get to understand behind the scenes. And 3108 02:38:04.159 --> 02:38:07.920 and I did work with you know, Scott Miller pretty 3109 02:38:07.920 --> 02:38:12.719 pretty closely on on on a mission, and uh, you 3110 02:38:12.760 --> 02:38:14.920 get to meet these these people. They say, no, don't 3111 02:38:14.920 --> 02:38:16.520 meet your heroes, but I got to meet a lot 3112 02:38:16.559 --> 02:38:19.239 of my heroes and and and and got to to 3113 02:38:19.399 --> 02:38:22.719 go visit you know, the chowholl At Brag, which is 3114 02:38:22.719 --> 02:38:25.440 pretty good. And and you know, and and experience, get 3115 02:38:25.440 --> 02:38:27.600 that kind of experience and talk to people and and 3116 02:38:27.719 --> 02:38:30.319 you just you know, they put me through a completely 3117 02:38:30.360 --> 02:38:32.319 different jump course, which I had a fantastic time doing. 3118 02:38:32.360 --> 02:38:34.840 I mean, I I got out of the military with 3119 02:38:34.840 --> 02:38:36.319 with more jumps on I ever thought I would have. 3120 02:38:36.399 --> 02:38:37.959 I enjoyed that. I really had. Well, it was the 3121 02:38:38.000 --> 02:38:42.520 jump course. Uh well they have their own uh they 3122 02:38:42.520 --> 02:38:44.239 have a they have their own course, but that they 3123 02:38:44.520 --> 02:38:48.040 run outside of Yuma or or Coolie, Arizona. They have 3124 02:38:48.079 --> 02:38:53.360 their own course and made the Advanced Tactical Infiltration. That's 3125 02:38:53.399 --> 02:38:55.600 a tech and that's good. That's that is actually run 3126 02:38:55.639 --> 02:38:58.600 by the Army. That that is a part, that is 3127 02:38:58.639 --> 02:39:00.520 a part of the profile of training. But for me, 3128 02:39:00.520 --> 02:39:02.040 because as a support guy, they were like, hey, if 3129 02:39:02.040 --> 02:39:04.159 you're going to jump in with us, not that you're 3130 02:39:04.159 --> 02:39:05.840 going on the X, but if you're going to jump 3131 02:39:05.879 --> 02:39:07.200 in as part of a support you have to be 3132 02:39:07.200 --> 02:39:09.559 able to jump our gear. You have to jump out profile. 3133 02:39:09.600 --> 02:39:13.079 So they they basically sent me back to jump school 3134 02:39:13.079 --> 02:39:14.719 for a week. And I'm like, this is awesome, Like 3135 02:39:14.840 --> 02:39:18.440 you get to do you know, stuff like that. So 3136 02:39:18.559 --> 02:39:22.760 I I enjoyed just the tempo. I enjoyed the amount 3137 02:39:22.799 --> 02:39:24.239 of training I got to do and got, you know, 3138 02:39:24.319 --> 02:39:26.799 and I enjoyed the missions they thought I was exposed to. 3139 02:39:26.840 --> 02:39:28.440 I mean, I got to be I wanted to be 3140 02:39:28.440 --> 02:39:30.159 involved in hostage rescue and I got to do hostage 3141 02:39:30.200 --> 02:39:34.440 risky stuff and that that's something you don't get to get. 3142 02:39:34.360 --> 02:39:36.280 To see or do very are you allowed to talk 3143 02:39:36.319 --> 02:39:42.280 about that at all? Uh, you asked the question and 3144 02:39:42.280 --> 02:39:48.840 we'll see what was the mission that So there's there's 3145 02:39:48.920 --> 02:39:52.120 that's the pot. Yeah, Like we're not going to mention 3146 02:39:52.200 --> 02:39:53.520 I'm not going to mention a country. 3147 02:39:53.920 --> 02:39:55.040 I'm not going to mention a name. 3148 02:39:55.879 --> 02:39:59.079 But like overall mission profile, what what had to get 3149 02:39:59.079 --> 02:39:59.479 done here? 3150 02:40:01.360 --> 02:40:04.040 So going back to State Department getting country clearances for us. 3151 02:40:04.200 --> 02:40:06.680 So if you go into a country with military force 3152 02:40:06.719 --> 02:40:09.840 that has not been permitted permission, you're giving given permissions 3153 02:40:09.840 --> 02:40:13.319 called an invasion marine course. Really good at that kind 3154 02:40:13.319 --> 02:40:16.000 of shit. R me two for that matter. I mean 3155 02:40:16.000 --> 02:40:18.120 they got they got I racked twice, so why not 3156 02:40:19.360 --> 02:40:23.760 so or parts of Iraq? It came back to wait. 3157 02:40:23.920 --> 02:40:27.600 But so you got to coordinate with the State Department 3158 02:40:27.639 --> 02:40:29.760 to get a country clearance, to be able to instip 3159 02:40:29.840 --> 02:40:33.360 clearance to diplomatic clearance and permission to do what you 3160 02:40:33.399 --> 02:40:35.600 want to do inside of that country. It's not like hey, 3161 02:40:35.920 --> 02:40:37.879 we're showing up and can you give us some local talent, 3162 02:40:37.920 --> 02:40:39.360 where like everyone needs to be out of the way. 3163 02:40:39.479 --> 02:40:41.479 We need to do this thing. We need we need 3164 02:40:41.920 --> 02:40:45.000 certain amounts of support, but ultimately what we what we 3165 02:40:45.040 --> 02:40:52.239 require most is to not be impeded. So whether it's 3166 02:40:53.120 --> 02:40:56.799 helicopters or you're doing a jump profile, or you're you're 3167 02:40:56.840 --> 02:40:59.159 doing something that is going to give you the best 3168 02:40:59.280 --> 02:41:03.639 chance of success. Yes, it's not there's this Jason Bourne. 3169 02:41:03.639 --> 02:41:06.559 Shit doesn't well for some people that exist, but not 3170 02:41:06.559 --> 02:41:09.040 not at this level. Right, Like, it's it's very you know, 3171 02:41:10.799 --> 02:41:12.840 you're not telling you your entire operation plan, but you're 3172 02:41:12.840 --> 02:41:13.920 just saying, look, this is what we've got to do 3173 02:41:14.319 --> 02:41:17.040 the area. Yeah, and you you're the country is aware 3174 02:41:17.079 --> 02:41:18.360 of what you're going in there to do. So in 3175 02:41:18.440 --> 02:41:20.600 case of the hostage rescue, let's say you know the 3176 02:41:20.639 --> 02:41:22.639 person is being held in a specific area and you've 3177 02:41:22.639 --> 02:41:25.000 got the intelligence to go and get it, go and 3178 02:41:25.000 --> 02:41:27.319 get them. You have a very short window to do that, 3179 02:41:27.360 --> 02:41:28.959 and things have to happen very fast, and you have 3180 02:41:29.040 --> 02:41:32.000 to get those permissions and and so that you can 3181 02:41:32.079 --> 02:41:33.959 move because time is everything. 3182 02:41:34.840 --> 02:41:37.920 But sometimes you're moving so fast that all the pieces 3183 02:41:37.959 --> 02:41:39.520 aren't lining up here, or. 3184 02:41:39.520 --> 02:41:41.600 You get moving with what you have in line and 3185 02:41:41.639 --> 02:41:43.360 you you hope the rest of it will catch up. 3186 02:41:44.600 --> 02:41:56.120 And in our case, in one mission, the ramp was 3187 02:41:56.200 --> 02:42:01.639 open and they were ready to go the jumpers and 3188 02:42:01.719 --> 02:42:04.520 they had not gotten the permission by way of the 3189 02:42:04.520 --> 02:42:05.200 State Department. 3190 02:42:05.319 --> 02:42:07.639 So yeah, so like people listening when they say the 3191 02:42:07.719 --> 02:42:10.719 ramp is open, like these guys are like minutes, if 3192 02:42:10.719 --> 02:42:12.399 not second second jumping. 3193 02:42:12.360 --> 02:42:16.760 Dropped up full oxygen, rady to go. Yeah, one leaves, 3194 02:42:16.760 --> 02:42:19.760 everyone's leaving. There's no like, oh well wait, hold up, 3195 02:42:20.760 --> 02:42:25.639 so we didn't get ship and so they're literally like 3196 02:42:26.959 --> 02:42:30.360 green green light is on jump or go. It's just 3197 02:42:30.440 --> 02:42:33.520 we are weird, just waiting. Holy fuck. And so I'm 3198 02:42:33.559 --> 02:42:36.280 on the phone with a lot of different people and 3199 02:42:36.639 --> 02:42:41.639 as are other people. And it finally came from the 3200 02:42:41.680 --> 02:42:45.680 front office, I e. Uh, the White House. So were 3201 02:42:45.680 --> 02:42:48.760 they like running racetracks up there and they're holding pattern. 3202 02:42:50.239 --> 02:42:53.360 Holy shit. So yeah, tension's really high. Yeah, you know, 3203 02:42:53.639 --> 02:42:57.239 you've got you've got overwatch on the objective, you got 3204 02:42:57.319 --> 02:42:59.239 overwatch on the people because you got to track, you 3205 02:42:59.239 --> 02:43:02.399 got to track the jump. They're already over sovereign airspace 3206 02:43:02.440 --> 02:43:05.120 at this point in another country from which they've launched, 3207 02:43:06.520 --> 02:43:14.159 so now they're in the air. We're all waiting. Got 3208 02:43:14.159 --> 02:43:16.559 a bunch of stuff lined up. Never mind your QRF 3209 02:43:16.600 --> 02:43:18.399 and everybody else who are on standby and you're just 3210 02:43:18.440 --> 02:43:21.000 waiting for go. And then the White House finally gets involved, 3211 02:43:21.399 --> 02:43:23.840 and I mean the White House, and then it's all 3212 02:43:23.840 --> 02:43:28.120 of a sudden, like everything's set go. Did it take 3213 02:43:28.159 --> 02:43:31.040 the President picking up the phone? Yep, yeah, not to me, 3214 02:43:33.040 --> 02:43:35.600 but to the host yeh yeah. It literally was like, hey, 3215 02:43:35.600 --> 02:43:36.959 what are you doing on Saturday? Why don't you come 3216 02:43:37.040 --> 02:43:37.440 golf with me? 3217 02:43:37.479 --> 02:43:40.440 And we'll right, it's worth your while, Like yeah, exactly, 3218 02:43:40.639 --> 02:43:41.120 let's talk. 3219 02:43:41.239 --> 02:43:43.479 Yeah, but that's really what it came down to. And 3220 02:43:43.239 --> 02:43:47.239 then oh, this sky's clear and we you know, so 3221 02:43:49.680 --> 02:43:56.040 jumpers go, they're able to land offset and then they 3222 02:43:57.040 --> 02:44:02.200 patrolled and basically had a movement to contact and did 3223 02:44:02.200 --> 02:44:06.120 a hasty assault and rescued. They got it, and then 3224 02:44:06.159 --> 02:44:09.799 we've we've pre planned like contingencies for beta, ACT for 3225 02:44:10.000 --> 02:44:16.639 QRF and extract and nobody recognizes when shit goes right. Yeah, 3226 02:44:16.680 --> 02:44:17.319 and it went right. 3227 02:44:17.639 --> 02:44:21.280 I remember when this happened, again not mentioning any names, 3228 02:44:21.319 --> 02:44:24.840 but I remember when it happened. If it happened, it 3229 02:44:24.959 --> 02:44:28.040 was very Yeah, it was sort of like a blip 3230 02:44:28.079 --> 02:44:29.879 on the radar, right, it was just sort of like, yeah, 3231 02:44:29.920 --> 02:44:32.079 this thing happened, and it was acknowledged. 3232 02:44:31.559 --> 02:44:34.399 In some like wire you know, reports on like Associated 3233 02:44:34.399 --> 02:44:36.600 Press or whatever. It got on Fox News for a 3234 02:44:36.840 --> 02:44:39.399 for a throw the news for something like a like 3235 02:44:39.440 --> 02:44:42.000 you said, a blip, yeah, yeah, like oh that's interesting 3236 02:44:42.200 --> 02:44:43.760 because it went down, right, But what do you want 3237 02:44:43.799 --> 02:44:46.399 your market phone? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah, 3238 02:44:46.440 --> 02:44:47.280 I did, and. 3239 02:44:48.799 --> 02:44:50.959 They smoke checked a bunch of bad guys and got 3240 02:44:51.000 --> 02:44:52.520 the hostagetity. 3241 02:44:51.840 --> 02:44:53.680 And that was That was very That was probably one 3242 02:44:53.719 --> 02:44:55.200 of the most intense things I've been involved in, not 3243 02:44:55.200 --> 02:44:57.600 because I was on the ground with them, but because 3244 02:44:58.760 --> 02:45:00.639 I had been on another one. I had been in 3245 02:45:00.680 --> 02:45:03.799 another HR that did not go well and people were 3246 02:45:03.799 --> 02:45:08.440 wounded and we we eventually eventually these guys were recovered. 3247 02:45:08.440 --> 02:45:12.239 But at that point in time, it got you know, 3248 02:45:13.440 --> 02:45:17.680 you want to talk about if second guessing things that 3249 02:45:17.719 --> 02:45:21.159 happened on the ground and tactics, If you've done this, 3250 02:45:21.200 --> 02:45:24.639 why didn't they push harder? I mean, as Winston Churchill says, 3251 02:45:24.799 --> 02:45:27.200 you know it said after Gallipoli, I'm not comparing this 3252 02:45:27.239 --> 02:45:30.239 to Gallipoli because you know, now the terrible ifts will accumulate, right, yeah, 3253 02:45:30.479 --> 02:45:31.959 And so that's what it comes down to. You like, well, 3254 02:45:32.000 --> 02:45:34.040 how did this happen? And did he make the right 3255 02:45:34.079 --> 02:45:37.680 decision to pull back? And in some cases, yeah, I 3256 02:45:37.680 --> 02:45:39.479 think that it is. I think I know the one 3257 02:45:39.479 --> 02:45:42.360 you're talking about and so so so then you're like, 3258 02:45:43.000 --> 02:45:48.239 was it mission failure or did we succeed enough? And 3259 02:45:48.959 --> 02:45:51.440 if it ended eventually and it did with the guys 3260 02:45:51.520 --> 02:45:54.680 being recovered again through a different means, but we still 3261 02:45:54.799 --> 02:45:58.680 we never we never lost hope, right, that was going 3262 02:45:58.760 --> 02:46:07.280 to happen. You're like, well, well we get another swing 3263 02:46:07.319 --> 02:46:09.920 at this, right, or did we did we let this 3264 02:46:09.959 --> 02:46:13.719 guy down in their families because you're putting a lot 3265 02:46:13.760 --> 02:46:17.319 of effort against one to two people, but anybody's like, oh, 3266 02:46:17.360 --> 02:46:20.399 they don't have value American lives. Listen. When I was there, 3267 02:46:20.440 --> 02:46:21.879 there's a scene in that movie Proof of Life where 3268 02:46:21.879 --> 02:46:23.399 they've got all the names and everything all lined up 3269 02:46:23.399 --> 02:46:25.639 on the board of like who who's involved in KNR 3270 02:46:25.680 --> 02:46:27.440 and they're trying to figure out because this is a 3271 02:46:27.479 --> 02:46:30.159 private firm, you know, in the movie. It's obviously a movie, 3272 02:46:32.000 --> 02:46:35.920 but we actively tracked everybody who is you know, kidnapped 3273 02:46:36.000 --> 02:46:38.520 or or you know, sometimes it could be just a 3274 02:46:38.600 --> 02:46:41.239 KFR kidnapper ransom thing involved with an oil company, but 3275 02:46:41.319 --> 02:46:44.719 other times it could be a political thing. But we 3276 02:46:44.760 --> 02:46:48.360 track every They track everything if some if something happens 3277 02:46:48.360 --> 02:46:52.399 and someone goes missing, and we there's constant evaluation like, Okay, 3278 02:46:52.479 --> 02:46:54.440 do we have proof of life? Can we go get 3279 02:46:54.440 --> 02:46:56.959 this person? Can we you know, we'll go talk to 3280 02:46:57.000 --> 02:46:58.719 their families. The FBI will go and talk to them 3281 02:46:58.719 --> 02:47:01.559 as well. We're trying to understand everything we can, and 3282 02:47:01.639 --> 02:47:03.719 time is of the essence. It's all about time and 3283 02:47:03.760 --> 02:47:07.000 doing it quickly and doing it and also being careful. 3284 02:47:08.360 --> 02:47:10.959 It reminds me of We had a says guy that 3285 02:47:11.000 --> 02:47:13.959 we interviewed on here one time, and he pointed out 3286 02:47:14.120 --> 02:47:15.639 he was not a part of it, but he pointed 3287 02:47:15.639 --> 02:47:18.239 out this sort of like a lesson learned, an aar 3288 02:47:18.440 --> 02:47:19.280 kind of comment. 3289 02:47:20.040 --> 02:47:21.920 During the Gulf War, there's. 3290 02:47:21.760 --> 02:47:25.399 An SAS patrol that deployed. They were infilled into the 3291 02:47:25.440 --> 02:47:27.440 desert for reconnaissance mission. 3292 02:47:28.760 --> 02:47:31.479 Before that, before that, right before that, they got out there. 3293 02:47:31.319 --> 02:47:33.479 And it was just flat desert out in every direction 3294 02:47:33.760 --> 02:47:37.120 and the patrol leader was like, the train's totally different 3295 02:47:37.159 --> 02:47:39.959 than what we anticipated, not what we saw on the map. 3296 02:47:40.760 --> 02:47:43.840 It does not support the mission that we have planned. 3297 02:47:44.159 --> 02:47:46.280 And he aborted and had the birds come in and 3298 02:47:46.280 --> 02:47:50.000 take him out, and people there's tremendous pressure to do 3299 02:47:50.159 --> 02:47:53.559 operations early on the Gulf War, but that happens everywhere, 3300 02:47:53.600 --> 02:47:56.159 so you're right, yeah, and then the next patrol that 3301 02:47:56.200 --> 02:47:58.399 went in, you know, people were cursing this guy out. 3302 02:47:58.440 --> 02:48:01.040 The next patrol that went in was Provac zero. You know. 3303 02:48:01.840 --> 02:48:05.200 And I've spent a lot of time with the Special 3304 02:48:05.239 --> 02:48:06.639 Air Service that I have. I have friends who are 3305 02:48:06.639 --> 02:48:11.520 still on active duty there. I work with former members 3306 02:48:11.639 --> 02:48:14.360 who who were now out, but they were there at 3307 02:48:14.360 --> 02:48:18.799 that time. They knew those guys, and they're also very 3308 02:48:18.840 --> 02:48:20.760 good about the lessons learns that come after that. And 3309 02:48:20.879 --> 02:48:24.479 so yeah, there there will always be that second guessing. 3310 02:48:24.520 --> 02:48:25.920 And so, you know, did the commander and make the 3311 02:48:25.959 --> 02:48:29.159 right decision to abort the mission? Did should they have 3312 02:48:29.280 --> 02:48:31.520 continued pushing the fight to you know, get the hostage 3313 02:48:31.559 --> 02:48:35.479 who we later found was literally within like fifty yards 3314 02:48:35.639 --> 02:48:39.159 fifty meters of them if they if they pushed the fight. 3315 02:48:39.200 --> 02:48:40.920 But now you've got two guys down, one who is 3316 02:48:41.639 --> 02:48:46.840 literally shot perfectly like he was like the arranger in 3317 02:48:47.280 --> 02:48:51.840 Blackhawk down Jamie, you know, who ended up dying obviously, 3318 02:48:51.879 --> 02:48:55.079 But I'm sorry I can't remember if that's terrible ultimately, 3319 02:48:56.360 --> 02:48:59.120 you know, but what comes of that we get quick 3320 02:48:59.120 --> 02:49:02.159 clot we get ways that we can now do battlefield 3321 02:49:02.360 --> 02:49:06.440 to survive. Your battle field survivability goes up. So then 3322 02:49:06.479 --> 02:49:08.879 after that we start evaluating, Okay, well how did he 3323 02:49:09.000 --> 02:49:11.040 get hit? Well, the guy fired through the doorway and 3324 02:49:11.239 --> 02:49:12.639 he was getting ready to make entry. And this is 3325 02:49:12.680 --> 02:49:14.520 what happens when you're gonna do you know, this a 3326 02:49:14.680 --> 02:49:20.200 very dynamic and dangerous business. And when I so that 3327 02:49:20.200 --> 02:49:25.639 guy went to the hospital and he ended up making 3328 02:49:25.639 --> 02:49:29.239 a recovery, up full recovery, but he lived, he lived, 3329 02:49:29.520 --> 02:49:36.840 and he was we're talking about many bordering on years 3330 02:49:36.840 --> 02:49:37.479 of recovery. 3331 02:49:37.680 --> 02:49:40.239 Yeah, for people who are like listening to this, like 3332 02:49:40.239 --> 02:49:42.719 when you get shot in the pelvis, not that I 3333 02:49:42.760 --> 02:49:44.360 know what the hell I'm talking about, but there's a 3334 02:49:44.360 --> 02:49:47.159 bunch of obviously bones and arteries that run through that area, 3335 02:49:47.639 --> 02:49:50.639 so you get shot there like it's a that's a 3336 02:49:50.760 --> 02:49:53.319 very dangerous and quickly fatal loon. 3337 02:49:54.040 --> 02:49:56.959 So the medics did a fantastic So remember there's this 3338 02:49:57.079 --> 02:50:00.120 huge firefight going on, You're going in to rescue at 3339 02:50:00.600 --> 02:50:02.360 you've got a guy down on the doorway. So you've 3340 02:50:02.360 --> 02:50:05.399 got to pull him back. He's now a priority. The 3341 02:50:05.440 --> 02:50:07.840 mission has not ended, and you got to get him evacuated. 3342 02:50:07.879 --> 02:50:10.120 So now I'm juggling all this stuff back back on 3343 02:50:10.159 --> 02:50:12.200 the rear, like making all this happen. So I'm on 3344 02:50:12.200 --> 02:50:14.239 an airplane. I hadn't seen this guy in ages, and 3345 02:50:14.280 --> 02:50:16.200 I'm on an airplane and I see him come on 3346 02:50:16.319 --> 02:50:19.520 and he's walking on a cane, and I said, holy shit, dude, 3347 02:50:20.319 --> 02:50:23.479 how are you? How are things? He's oh man, hanging 3348 02:50:23.520 --> 02:50:28.120 in there. You know. I said, listen, I'm gonna buy 3349 02:50:28.120 --> 02:50:30.079 you a drink. I've owed you a drink. In fact, 3350 02:50:30.079 --> 02:50:38.200 I probably owe you a brewery, right, But I have 3351 02:50:38.280 --> 02:50:44.799 carried around a long time that you got shot. And 3352 02:50:44.840 --> 02:50:46.440 the reason why is I'm the guy that got the 3353 02:50:46.479 --> 02:50:50.079 mission approved to put you in there. And he goes, 3354 02:50:50.120 --> 02:50:52.559 I do it all over again. Yeah, of course, what 3355 02:50:52.559 --> 02:50:53.719 are you gonna do it? Right? So he's like, how 3356 02:50:53.719 --> 02:50:55.600 about fifty beers? Like, you know, you would have done 3357 02:50:55.639 --> 02:51:00.879 the same shit if without a doubt. And so the 3358 02:51:00.959 --> 02:51:03.520 junctaposition of those two missions is one is like really successful, 3359 02:51:03.520 --> 02:51:05.959 and we were like jumping up and down and really excited. 3360 02:51:06.000 --> 02:51:08.280 That's a really tough pill to swallow for the operators. 3361 02:51:08.559 --> 02:51:14.000 Oh yeah, well so you know, I they did come back, 3362 02:51:14.000 --> 02:51:15.600 and there was some dejection and there was a lot 3363 02:51:15.639 --> 02:51:18.760 of like the finger pointing is not the right word 3364 02:51:18.760 --> 02:51:20.440 because they don't do that. They're professionals and they don't 3365 02:51:20.479 --> 02:51:22.040 get into like, well he did this and he you 3366 02:51:22.079 --> 02:51:23.440 know nobody, but we didn't. 3367 02:51:23.479 --> 02:51:26.319 A bunch of like a type personalities. Mission failure does 3368 02:51:26.399 --> 02:51:28.520 not go over mop and. 3369 02:51:28.280 --> 02:51:30.079 But but it is part I hate to say that, 3370 02:51:30.079 --> 02:51:32.920 it is part of the risk assessment. Yeah, and it is, 3371 02:51:33.559 --> 02:51:36.639 you know, the evaluation of you're going to commit those 3372 02:51:36.639 --> 02:51:40.159 resources and you're going to risk life, limb, eyesight machine 3373 02:51:40.200 --> 02:51:41.600 and all these other things that are going to go 3374 02:51:41.639 --> 02:51:44.239 in there. We're making that decision before we ever say go, 3375 02:51:44.719 --> 02:51:46.920 and then when we go, we go, and you go 3376 02:51:47.000 --> 02:51:47.799 as hard as you can. 3377 02:51:49.440 --> 02:51:52.520 So I got to ask, how is that hostage ultimately 3378 02:51:52.559 --> 02:51:53.239 pulled out of there? 3379 02:51:53.719 --> 02:51:55.520 They negotiated it, gotcha. 3380 02:51:55.639 --> 02:52:01.479 Yeah, Yeah, they negotiated it adroitly. I'd say that was 3381 02:52:01.520 --> 02:52:05.520 actually and it was, and it was likely because of 3382 02:52:05.559 --> 02:52:07.520 the effort that was put against them. 3383 02:52:07.600 --> 02:52:08.879 Yeah, they were like, ship man, we don't want to 3384 02:52:08.879 --> 02:52:12.719 deal with this anymore. Yeah, they're not. You've you've you've, you've, 3385 02:52:12.760 --> 02:52:17.600 you've outlived your value. Well then they whacked they whacked 3386 02:52:17.639 --> 02:52:20.000 these guys on the freaking you know objective. But there 3387 02:52:20.000 --> 02:52:21.719 were just more dudes there and they were just like, okay, 3388 02:52:21.760 --> 02:52:27.040 we can't fighten this out. So you know, they made 3389 02:52:27.079 --> 02:52:29.479 the right decision. Yeah. And when that, when that was 3390 02:52:29.559 --> 02:52:31.319 unfolding in real time in front of you, is just like, 3391 02:52:33.600 --> 02:52:36.159 you know, you have to react and know when you 3392 02:52:36.280 --> 02:52:38.159 got to be calm, and you gotta even though you're 3393 02:52:38.200 --> 02:52:41.000 in the ops center and you have to maintain the 3394 02:52:41.040 --> 02:52:47.040 ability of managing chaos and still keeping everything in line, 3395 02:52:47.079 --> 02:52:50.000 you still have to continue and and so I think 3396 02:52:50.040 --> 02:52:52.000 that's that's one of the things that you know, they're 3397 02:52:52.079 --> 02:52:57.239 the flexibility that it is given there is tremendous. And 3398 02:52:57.280 --> 02:53:00.360 so yeah, I I was involved in three of them. 3399 02:53:00.399 --> 02:53:03.600 I did three uh causes rescues all of them, all 3400 02:53:03.600 --> 02:53:08.239 of them successful recoveries eventually. So yeah, I guess I 3401 02:53:08.239 --> 02:53:13.799 could say, you know, I'm pretty what was number three, separate, 3402 02:53:14.159 --> 02:53:20.280 separate guy in another place? Another place? Yeah, and how 3403 02:53:20.280 --> 02:53:24.239 did that one turn out? That one was actually less dynamic? 3404 02:53:24.840 --> 02:53:25.479 Uh? 3405 02:53:25.879 --> 02:53:29.719 He actually wouldn't he like walked in was like go 3406 02:53:29.799 --> 02:53:31.440 pick this guy out. Yeah, they're kind of like, hey, 3407 02:53:31.600 --> 02:53:33.239 you know, we we we found it. You still have 3408 02:53:33.280 --> 02:53:36.200 to you know, you put put the infrastructure together to 3409 02:53:36.200 --> 02:53:39.799 go make it happen. But that's actually, you know, while 3410 02:53:39.840 --> 02:53:41.760 I was exciting on one level as you're getting you know, 3411 02:53:42.120 --> 02:53:45.680 full Hollywood type shit, you know, for these other missions 3412 02:53:45.680 --> 02:53:48.520 and the dynamics of being in combat, how much easier 3413 02:53:48.600 --> 02:53:51.680 is it to just us like get them and and 3414 02:53:51.719 --> 02:53:57.000 that you know, the results still the same, you just 3415 02:53:57.079 --> 02:53:59.639 have What was really good about that one is, you know, 3416 02:54:00.120 --> 02:54:02.920 there was a leveraging of local infrastructure to really kind 3417 02:54:02.920 --> 02:54:06.479 of do that in a much more clandestine I would 3418 02:54:06.479 --> 02:54:09.479 call a cerebral way. And they'd been looking for that 3419 02:54:09.479 --> 02:54:13.360 guy for a really long time, or he'd he'd been 3420 02:54:13.520 --> 02:54:16.120 he'd been in captivity for a really long time. And 3421 02:54:16.120 --> 02:54:23.799 when they got him, I was like, I imagine, how 3422 02:54:23.840 --> 02:54:25.879 do you how do you integrate your family right? How 3423 02:54:25.920 --> 02:54:27.399 do you reintegrate with the world. You know, it's it's 3424 02:54:27.399 --> 02:54:31.200 a very difficult, you know, And I wasn't on the 3425 02:54:31.239 --> 02:54:33.159 receiving end of that, you know, I was never I 3426 02:54:33.200 --> 02:54:36.000 didn't do the post your recovery interviews. Our psychologist did 3427 02:54:36.000 --> 02:54:37.680 that in the USBI all kinds of people. 3428 02:54:37.760 --> 02:54:39.799 Yeah, there's a place down in Texas where they do that, 3429 02:54:39.840 --> 02:54:43.440 don't they They do them like hostage rein agree. 3430 02:54:43.360 --> 02:54:45.399 Well, they do it all. They do it all over 3431 02:54:45.440 --> 02:54:47.079 the place. But it starts as soon as they grab him. 3432 02:54:47.319 --> 02:54:49.120 As soon as they got him out, like you know, 3433 02:54:49.440 --> 02:54:51.840 they give him something to drink or whatever, and talking 3434 02:54:51.840 --> 02:54:57.000 to the cave bro. Well, I mean actually yeah, I 3435 02:54:57.040 --> 02:54:59.920 mean what in the case where they where they walked 3436 02:55:00.079 --> 02:55:03.239 in and and stitched up the bad guys in a 3437 02:55:03.280 --> 02:55:10.159 pretty pretty good fight. The lead guy dove on the 3438 02:55:10.239 --> 02:55:13.680 hostage because because I mean, there's a there's a crazy 3439 02:55:13.719 --> 02:55:19.200 ass firefighting all around him. And when all the gunfire stopped, 3440 02:55:19.719 --> 02:55:22.760 I was he apparently like it was like ear to 3441 02:55:22.840 --> 02:55:24.280 your mouth to ear with him. Was like, hey man, 3442 02:55:24.319 --> 02:55:27.680 we're Americans, you okay? And the guy was like, I 3443 02:55:27.719 --> 02:55:30.760 don't know, and he was like, could you get off me? 3444 02:55:30.879 --> 02:55:33.719 Because we're talking to dude about my size. He's wearing 3445 02:55:33.719 --> 02:55:36.840 a full full body armor and everything, and his adrenaliness 3446 02:55:36.879 --> 02:55:38.760 spike because he just jumped out of an airplane and 3447 02:55:38.879 --> 02:55:41.680 walked across the desert, you know, for for two hours. 3448 02:55:41.879 --> 02:55:43.159 I can't imagine the. 3449 02:55:43.079 --> 02:55:45.120 Fire for what that feels like, you know, like the 3450 02:55:45.440 --> 02:55:48.840 accounts of like the Kurt News rescue in Panama, where 3451 02:55:48.840 --> 02:55:51.239 like you're being held in a fucking jail cell in 3452 02:55:51.280 --> 02:55:53.639 a foreign country and all of a sudden, these commandos 3453 02:55:53.680 --> 02:55:56.280 show up and they're like, we're American soldiers. We're here 3454 02:55:56.280 --> 02:55:58.479 to bring you home. Absolutely like holy shit. 3455 02:55:58.680 --> 02:56:00.920 Well, I mean there's a marine for Consistance unit that 3456 02:56:01.040 --> 02:56:05.280 did did a uh uh I think it was an 3457 02:56:05.280 --> 02:56:12.799 oil tanker recapture and the crew had barricaded themselves down 3458 02:56:12.840 --> 02:56:18.760 inside of the ship's secondary steering, which is you know, 3459 02:56:19.959 --> 02:56:21.440 so if something happens in the. 3460 02:56:21.520 --> 02:56:23.680 What was this before the gew water after? This is 3461 02:56:23.719 --> 02:56:25.319 during the GWAT. This is only a few years ago. 3462 02:56:26.399 --> 02:56:29.120 Only we could look it up. I'm embarrassed that I 3463 02:56:29.120 --> 02:56:33.879 don't have the full details. But they the ship had 3464 02:56:33.879 --> 02:56:38.040 been had been hijacked. 3465 02:56:38.239 --> 02:56:45.399 The forced platoon assaulted the ship and then they they 3466 02:56:45.440 --> 02:56:48.280 cleared it and as they got down into the lower 3467 02:56:48.959 --> 02:56:53.319 lower part of the sorry to the aft steering, they 3468 02:56:53.360 --> 02:56:56.280 were banging on the door. They're like, hey, come out. 3469 02:56:56.479 --> 02:56:58.719 They're like we were not coming out, like you you 3470 02:56:58.879 --> 02:57:01.520 who are you? And the guy pulled his American flag 3471 02:57:01.559 --> 02:57:04.000 off of his gear and he slid it under the door, 3472 02:57:04.639 --> 02:57:06.280 oh ship, and the guy was like book and he 3473 02:57:06.319 --> 02:57:07.920 opened it up. He was like, thank god. Yes, you 3474 02:57:07.920 --> 02:57:12.879 know you don't think that has any currency. Yeah, that's 3475 02:57:12.920 --> 02:57:15.520 pretty impressive. That's awesome. 3476 02:57:17.360 --> 02:57:23.639 So uh, I mean, I I just realized I've been talking. 3477 02:57:23.399 --> 02:57:25.319 Your ear off for like three hours here. I've been 3478 02:57:25.319 --> 02:57:26.280 talking your off Like. 3479 02:57:26.479 --> 02:57:28.799 No, I mean, I love it though, and I'll keep 3480 02:57:28.799 --> 02:57:31.520 you going all that. No, I'm not going to I 3481 02:57:31.520 --> 02:57:33.360 got nothing else to do, Like this is great, so 3482 02:57:34.440 --> 02:57:37.399 you know, and so like you mentioned that you're sort 3483 02:57:37.399 --> 02:57:41.200 of like winding down in your Marine Corps career before 3484 02:57:41.239 --> 02:57:45.120 we move on, like big takeaways from this Jaysock experience 3485 02:57:45.200 --> 02:57:46.600 five years mission planning. 3486 02:57:47.280 --> 02:57:49.840 Uh, well, I think it was the culmination of my 3487 02:57:50.239 --> 02:57:52.159 obviously it's not just the culmination because it was my 3488 02:57:52.239 --> 02:57:53.600 last assignment, but you know. 3489 02:57:54.399 --> 02:57:57.200 You got to use all of your skills and experience 3490 02:57:57.360 --> 02:57:58.520 and put it all together. 3491 02:57:58.600 --> 02:58:00.479 Yeah. I think that's really what it comes to is 3492 02:58:00.520 --> 02:58:05.360 I I got the opportunity to put it all into practice. 3493 02:58:05.399 --> 02:58:08.920 It's almost like studying a martial art for a really 3494 02:58:08.920 --> 02:58:10.760 long time and then you're I'm not saying you went 3495 02:58:10.799 --> 02:58:12.239 out on the street to get in a fight, or whatever. 3496 02:58:12.239 --> 02:58:14.680 But somehow you just finally felt like you had pulled it, 3497 02:58:14.719 --> 02:58:17.879 like you had learned it, and you not, you couldn't 3498 02:58:17.959 --> 02:58:19.920 keep learning. And even the best martial arts will tell 3499 02:58:19.920 --> 02:58:21.559 you that you're always learning, and you should be, whether 3500 02:58:21.600 --> 02:58:23.600 you're writing or what have you. But for me, I 3501 02:58:23.600 --> 02:58:24.600 was like, you know, this is going to be the 3502 02:58:24.680 --> 02:58:31.840 end of my career probably, and just being able to 3503 02:58:31.879 --> 02:58:38.360 be able to being able to look at my career 3504 02:58:38.399 --> 02:58:41.360 to that point and say this is where I want 3505 02:58:41.399 --> 02:58:44.959 to go and having achieved that was was huge. 3506 02:58:45.079 --> 02:58:48.559 You went further than marines were a quote unquote supposed 3507 02:58:48.559 --> 02:58:48.760 to go. 3508 02:58:49.159 --> 02:58:52.479 Probably there are a lot of marines we are going 3509 02:58:52.520 --> 02:58:54.559 to see this and be like, yes, yes he did. 3510 02:58:55.799 --> 02:58:57.000 Whether what I. 3511 02:58:57.000 --> 02:58:59.520 Mean by that was that you guys were literally like 3512 02:58:59.719 --> 02:59:02.000 not allowed to be a part of the Special Operations 3513 02:59:02.000 --> 02:59:03.040 community for so long. 3514 02:59:03.079 --> 02:59:04.799 That's how it was when you first started. 3515 02:59:05.079 --> 02:59:07.719 And for you to stand up Mars socer be a 3516 02:59:07.719 --> 02:59:09.680 part of that and then go up and have this 3517 02:59:09.760 --> 02:59:12.600 Jastock position is like you went further than people would 3518 02:59:12.639 --> 02:59:14.760 have expected any marine to go. 3519 02:59:14.920 --> 02:59:16.959 It was it was not ever in the plan either. 3520 02:59:17.079 --> 02:59:19.840 Yeah what I mean yeah? Yeah, so yeah, I mean 3521 02:59:19.840 --> 02:59:23.799 it was, uh it was. It was tremendous, and people 3522 02:59:23.840 --> 02:59:25.760 ask like, hey, if I joined the Marine Corps that 3523 02:59:25.799 --> 02:59:27.319 you know, if you if you can map your career 3524 02:59:27.399 --> 02:59:29.319 like I did, I tell you right now, go ahead 3525 02:59:29.399 --> 02:59:31.920 do it. Yeah yeah, but there's no guarantees, right. 3526 02:59:31.799 --> 02:59:38.000 No, So before we move on, I guess, like, I'm 3527 02:59:38.200 --> 02:59:40.319 kind of curious about, like what it's like to sit 3528 02:59:40.319 --> 02:59:45.000 in those options watching the ISR feed the thermal coming in, 3529 02:59:45.040 --> 02:59:47.959 and you mentioned some like pretty tense moments. But then 3530 02:59:48.200 --> 02:59:50.399 like the other like imagery that comes into my mind 3531 02:59:50.479 --> 02:59:53.239 is from uh, what was it Patriot Games? Where the 3532 02:59:53.280 --> 02:59:55.719 guys sitting there watching us, sipping on a coffee like 3533 02:59:55.760 --> 02:59:56.559 that is a kill. 3534 02:59:57.040 --> 03:00:03.680 That is straight Hollywood ship. I'll tell you it. I mean, 3535 03:00:03.680 --> 03:00:06.520 you got to get sleep, especially if it starts to 3536 03:00:07.520 --> 03:00:09.840 become a little more protracted. When you deploy, you don't 3537 03:00:09.840 --> 03:00:11.239 know how long you're going to be gone for. Even 3538 03:00:11.239 --> 03:00:13.920 if you stand up in the op center, you I 3539 03:00:13.959 --> 03:00:17.120 would sleep in the office, sleep in the couch because 3540 03:00:17.120 --> 03:00:18.280 you never know. Somebody had to wake you up. You 3541 03:00:18.280 --> 03:00:20.559 didn't You couldn't drive, even though I lived close by, 3542 03:00:21.479 --> 03:00:23.680 you'd lose time driving. So you just sleep there and 3543 03:00:23.680 --> 03:00:29.079 people bring any food and you know, sometimes it'd be 3544 03:00:29.159 --> 03:00:34.200 quite boring, but then it would ramp up. And I 3545 03:00:34.239 --> 03:00:36.159 can tell you that, you know, when the tension is there, 3546 03:00:36.239 --> 03:00:39.159 everyone is really legitimately focused. And then when it's when 3547 03:00:39.200 --> 03:00:43.840 it's happening and you're watching the whole thing unfold. Aside 3548 03:00:43.879 --> 03:00:49.319 from just people having short conversations with that's all mission 3549 03:00:49.319 --> 03:00:52.760 oriented or picking up a phone, it is quiet. It 3550 03:00:52.840 --> 03:00:56.159 is very quiet, and everyone gets professional. It's really professional. 3551 03:00:58.280 --> 03:01:00.799 And I do remember like when when that guy got 3552 03:01:00.799 --> 03:01:07.959 rescued and they were like, hey, positive recovery nine tangles 3553 03:01:08.000 --> 03:01:13.159 down everything, you know, we're doing s s. We we 3554 03:01:13.159 --> 03:01:15.559 were like erupted in cheers like it was. 3555 03:01:16.399 --> 03:01:17.959 It was awesome because you guys have been a lot 3556 03:01:18.040 --> 03:01:19.600 on Pinzanninah. 3557 03:01:18.959 --> 03:01:20.360 Yeah for so long. Yeah No, that was like that 3558 03:01:20.440 --> 03:01:22.719 was like a three day like day on Stay On. 3559 03:01:23.120 --> 03:01:25.120 You know that I was getting a couple of hours 3560 03:01:25.159 --> 03:01:27.799 here and there where I could and uh, you know, 3561 03:01:27.799 --> 03:01:29.600 everybody wants to be that guy. I'm not going to 3562 03:01:29.639 --> 03:01:32.239 bed like I got it, like he just can't attention 3563 03:01:32.399 --> 03:01:34.680 is you have to figure out how to moderate it. Yeah, well, 3564 03:01:34.719 --> 03:01:36.399 I mean you did in combat too, right, I mean 3565 03:01:36.479 --> 03:01:42.319 you can't you can't go forever and then unless I 3566 03:01:42.399 --> 03:01:44.079 for all the stuff and things I was exposed to 3567 03:01:44.159 --> 03:01:46.879 and got to do. I was never in a Fallujah, 3568 03:01:47.360 --> 03:01:52.159 you know, I wasn't in a in a Marsha protracted 3569 03:01:53.200 --> 03:01:56.000 week two week campaigns where you're just living out of 3570 03:01:56.000 --> 03:02:00.000 your gear. You know. A lot of it was commuter warfare. 3571 03:02:00.120 --> 03:02:02.760 You're flying in, you're going out, you're having breakfast by, 3572 03:02:03.000 --> 03:02:05.280 you know, before the sun comes up. I mean yeah, 3573 03:02:05.440 --> 03:02:10.719 zero three hundred call. Yeah. I mean it's like, yeah, 3574 03:02:11.040 --> 03:02:13.399 I'm not gonna say it's easy, but it's different. You 3575 03:02:13.559 --> 03:02:16.639 you get you get used to a certain way of 3576 03:02:16.639 --> 03:02:22.200 of of of serving. And my hats off to the infantry. 3577 03:02:22.239 --> 03:02:24.280 My hat's off to those guys who who who have 3578 03:02:24.319 --> 03:02:25.520 gone and done that stuff. And like I said, I 3579 03:02:25.520 --> 03:02:27.479 had been my first interests between I would have loved 3580 03:02:27.520 --> 03:02:32.559 to have had that opportunity with them. So, I mean, yeah, 3581 03:02:32.559 --> 03:02:34.760 it was a heck of a the heck of a run. 3582 03:02:35.600 --> 03:02:38.879 Talk to us about retirement. In retirement, I am a writer. 3583 03:02:39.319 --> 03:02:41.319 I also do a little bit of consulting on the side. 3584 03:02:42.600 --> 03:02:46.520 I work with a company based out of Holland called 3585 03:02:46.559 --> 03:02:48.840 AFG Advanced Forces Group, which I do a lot of 3586 03:02:49.200 --> 03:02:52.559 advisement work with mostly retired guys. 3587 03:02:52.760 --> 03:02:52.879 Uh. 3588 03:02:53.000 --> 03:02:54.639 Some of them are SOAK guys, some of them are 3589 03:02:54.719 --> 03:02:59.319 Special Air Service, some of them are Dutch Special Forces 3590 03:02:59.680 --> 03:03:03.479 and train NATO SOFT. I call it board room mercenary. 3591 03:03:04.040 --> 03:03:06.520 You do a lot of stuff, especially with planning, working, 3592 03:03:08.319 --> 03:03:15.600 helping helping their planning process get better, and understanding special operations, 3593 03:03:15.920 --> 03:03:17.959 employment and things like that. And we also do stuff 3594 03:03:17.959 --> 03:03:20.239 with combat mindset and how you train your your teams 3595 03:03:20.680 --> 03:03:24.159 or trained people as a team in organizational development. So 3596 03:03:24.200 --> 03:03:26.520 I do that, and then I'm primarily a writer. I 3597 03:03:26.559 --> 03:03:29.840 do all kinds of different writing. I do expository stuff. 3598 03:03:29.879 --> 03:03:36.879 I do evaluate our commentary pieces. I have a substack, certainly. 3599 03:03:36.879 --> 03:03:39.440 I've got my four books which you can find on Amazon, 3600 03:03:39.479 --> 03:03:39.840 and you should. 3601 03:03:40.239 --> 03:03:43.440 We can go into those as well. What's the substack? 3602 03:03:43.479 --> 03:03:46.319 Where can people find that? That's Ivan f Ingram. 3603 03:03:46.319 --> 03:03:48.040 It looks like I N G R A H A 3604 03:03:48.200 --> 03:03:51.479 M dot substack dot com. What do you read about 3605 03:03:51.520 --> 03:03:54.879 on there? That is? Actually I actually look at it 3606 03:03:55.399 --> 03:04:01.600 writing as a craft. That's much like playing an instrument. 3607 03:04:01.639 --> 03:04:05.399 You have to practice. And my substack is honestly a 3608 03:04:05.440 --> 03:04:09.040 way to declutter my mind, whether it's current events or 3609 03:04:09.479 --> 03:04:13.159 reflection pieces or just something that's coming up in my brain. 3610 03:04:13.520 --> 03:04:15.879 It helps keep everything level so that I can actually 3611 03:04:15.879 --> 03:04:19.799 focus on my other writing. So it's it's a weekly 3612 03:04:20.040 --> 03:04:24.000 I do some stuff from my paid subscribers exclusively for them, 3613 03:04:24.319 --> 03:04:28.600 but it's a weekly delivery of just stuff I talk about. 3614 03:04:29.040 --> 03:04:31.600 So I've been doing it since January and I do 3615 03:04:31.680 --> 03:04:35.559 about two articles a week. Damn it just okay, yeah, well, 3616 03:04:36.479 --> 03:04:37.840 don't get lost up here. I mean, I got a 3617 03:04:37.840 --> 03:04:40.920 lot of stuff bouncing around. But I like it because 3618 03:04:40.920 --> 03:04:43.319 it helps me to honestly off gas and it also 3619 03:04:43.399 --> 03:04:50.760 helps me right self edit and develop the way that 3620 03:04:50.799 --> 03:04:55.920 I can deliver present the information, yeah, pros or what 3621 03:04:56.040 --> 03:04:58.959 have you. And so I dabble little poetry sometimes, or 3622 03:04:59.000 --> 03:05:01.559 I just some times I do some fiction stuff. It 3623 03:05:01.639 --> 03:05:03.719 just really depends on kind of what my mood is. 3624 03:05:03.719 --> 03:05:05.520 And this sometimes the stuff that pops up with current 3625 03:05:05.520 --> 03:05:06.920 events and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna comment on that, 3626 03:05:07.879 --> 03:05:11.760 and yeah, so's that's a really good thing. And then 3627 03:05:12.079 --> 03:05:15.639 I've been I've got four books that I've self published, 3628 03:05:15.680 --> 03:05:20.399 and I just signed with the Sega Group for my 3629 03:05:21.120 --> 03:05:24.159 feature length novel, which is called Troops in Contact, and 3630 03:05:24.200 --> 03:05:27.200 that will be out this year. Awesome just got the 3631 03:05:27.200 --> 03:05:28.680 copy edit back, which means I got a lot more 3632 03:05:28.760 --> 03:05:31.520 editing to do between you. But it's part of the problem. 3633 03:05:31.559 --> 03:05:35.639 So let's start off with these ones, The Patrol Athena 3634 03:05:36.280 --> 03:05:38.280 twenty two and Dream Job. 3635 03:05:38.680 --> 03:05:40.399 I mean, what were these books? 3636 03:05:40.639 --> 03:05:42.600 And these are all like kind of leading up to 3637 03:05:42.840 --> 03:05:44.040 the novel you've been working. 3638 03:05:44.520 --> 03:05:47.959 So I started writing while I was on deployment in 3639 03:05:48.040 --> 03:05:56.399 twenty sixteen as a way to just capture what I 3640 03:05:56.440 --> 03:05:58.760 had done, because I wanted my family to be able 3641 03:05:58.760 --> 03:06:01.879 to just have a record, like, you know, what, what 3642 03:06:02.000 --> 03:06:03.159 is what has he been doing? 3643 03:06:03.200 --> 03:06:07.040 Which I highly recommend guys do because I get like 3644 03:06:07.200 --> 03:06:10.040 Vietnam vet families of Vietnam veterans reach out to me 3645 03:06:10.079 --> 03:06:11.760 all the time like how can I find out what 3646 03:06:11.920 --> 03:06:12.559 my dad did? 3647 03:06:12.559 --> 03:06:19.639 And it's like, man went out, I'll hook you up. Yep. Yeah. 3648 03:06:19.639 --> 03:06:21.200 So I started that and I don't know if I 3649 03:06:21.200 --> 03:06:22.680 thought of it as a memoir or is just a 3650 03:06:22.719 --> 03:06:28.159 way of capturing things. And then I just started writing 3651 03:06:28.239 --> 03:06:30.040 and I kept writing, and I kept and I would 3652 03:06:30.280 --> 03:06:34.000 I would just fill in time as a way to 3653 03:06:34.040 --> 03:06:36.239 kill time on deployments. It was a way to, as 3654 03:06:36.280 --> 03:06:38.159 I talked about, to unpack a lot of stuff, and 3655 03:06:38.200 --> 03:06:41.200 then I just said, you know what, maybe I could 3656 03:06:41.200 --> 03:06:44.319 turn this into a book. And I thought about publishing 3657 03:06:44.319 --> 03:06:46.040 a memoir once I got out, which I guess a 3658 03:06:46.040 --> 03:06:48.280 lot of people do. And I talked to my friends 3659 03:06:48.559 --> 03:06:53.559 that any any of us at this point and present 3660 03:06:53.600 --> 03:06:57.680 company included I. But then I talked to my friend 3661 03:06:57.719 --> 03:07:00.680 Scott Husing, who has also helped me within aociation for 3662 03:07:02.000 --> 03:07:06.399 the novel, and he read part of the manuscript and said, 3663 03:07:07.079 --> 03:07:09.440 you know, if you approach this from the fiction side, 3664 03:07:09.479 --> 03:07:13.239 you might really be able to expand on this. And 3665 03:07:13.719 --> 03:07:17.120 he wrote Echo in Ramadi, which a very successful bestseller 3666 03:07:17.200 --> 03:07:20.239 book about his experience as an infantry company commander in Ramadi, 3667 03:07:20.280 --> 03:07:21.920 which is a good, great book if people. I haven't 3668 03:07:21.959 --> 03:07:25.479 read it, but he said, if you took this as 3669 03:07:25.639 --> 03:07:28.280 a and made it into a fictional story, you can 3670 03:07:28.280 --> 03:07:30.799 do a lot more with it as far as the characters. Whoops, 3671 03:07:31.879 --> 03:07:35.879 as far as characters. Luckily it's not lit. And also 3672 03:07:36.959 --> 03:07:39.079 I was very worried about authenticity and not being able 3673 03:07:39.120 --> 03:07:41.000 to capture the things that I knew was true to me. 3674 03:07:41.040 --> 03:07:42.319 And he's like, you can use all of that, you 3675 03:07:42.399 --> 03:07:44.120 just weave it into the story. And I hadn't ever 3676 03:07:44.159 --> 03:07:47.639 considered it. So I then started turning it into a 3677 03:07:47.680 --> 03:07:50.840 novel that was really jam packed with all kinds of stuff, 3678 03:07:50.879 --> 03:07:53.399 and he was like, okay, but this isn't this structure. 3679 03:07:53.399 --> 03:07:56.360 You need some structure to this. At that point, I 3680 03:07:56.680 --> 03:07:58.280 didn't even know about outlining. I didn't know anything of 3681 03:07:58.319 --> 03:08:00.639 that stuff. If there are two types of writers, I'm 3682 03:08:00.680 --> 03:08:02.680 a panther for sure, I'm like right by the seat 3683 03:08:02.680 --> 03:08:08.399 of my pants. And I I started trimming things away. 3684 03:08:08.399 --> 03:08:11.040 I don't throw anything out, I just put it somewhere else. 3685 03:08:11.559 --> 03:08:15.280 And so those books all became excerpts or things in 3686 03:08:15.319 --> 03:08:19.760 that the novel that didn't really fit okay. And then 3687 03:08:19.799 --> 03:08:22.360 I said, okay, well maybe I'll just start developing stories 3688 03:08:22.360 --> 03:08:25.479 off of that, because you need to develop as a storyteller. 3689 03:08:26.319 --> 03:08:29.959 And so each of those books, you know, the Patrol 3690 03:08:30.040 --> 03:08:31.200 was the first one I wrote, made a lot of 3691 03:08:31.239 --> 03:08:34.440 mistakes with it. They're probably still in there. But it's 3692 03:08:34.479 --> 03:08:38.200 about a patrol that I did in Afghanistan in twenty 3693 03:08:38.239 --> 03:08:41.559 twelve as part of one of the vsos. And it's 3694 03:08:41.600 --> 03:08:47.559 a pretty I think interesting account of leadership and kind 3695 03:08:47.559 --> 03:08:49.799 of things that you face, you know, in dynamic and 3696 03:08:49.959 --> 03:08:54.639 environments that change very quickly. Become very dynamic. What's the 3697 03:08:54.760 --> 03:08:56.399 kind of like main thrust of the novel. 3698 03:08:57.280 --> 03:08:59.959 Is it like an auto like fictionalized auto bi. 3699 03:09:00.559 --> 03:09:07.760 Or where are you going with it? Well, it is. 3700 03:09:09.479 --> 03:09:16.280 It's heavily influenced obviously by my career and my experiences, 3701 03:09:17.159 --> 03:09:18.840 but the tenor of the novel is not so much 3702 03:09:18.959 --> 03:09:24.120 a war book, although it obviously is military based. It 3703 03:09:24.200 --> 03:09:29.600 is is meant to be sort of a retrospective for 3704 03:09:29.680 --> 03:09:36.680 really reconciliation of a person's past. And the central character's 3705 03:09:36.719 --> 03:09:39.000 named Steve Keller. He also runs in each of my 3706 03:09:39.040 --> 03:09:46.440 books here, and he is haunted by the decisions he 3707 03:09:46.520 --> 03:09:50.600 made on the battlefield, and he is visited by the 3708 03:09:50.639 --> 03:09:53.559 ghost of his commanding officer who was killed in combat, 3709 03:09:54.399 --> 03:10:01.000 and through a discussion with that ghost, he goes into 3710 03:10:01.040 --> 03:10:03.760 his past to make sense of what he went through 3711 03:10:04.600 --> 03:10:09.520 and learn something on the other side. Yeah. So yeah, 3712 03:10:09.600 --> 03:10:12.360 it's meant to be a journey, not so much an odyssey, 3713 03:10:12.520 --> 03:10:15.559 but take the reader down into something and come back out. 3714 03:10:16.440 --> 03:10:21.680 And yeah it's I think it's pretty good. I'm looking 3715 03:10:21.680 --> 03:10:22.479 forward to reading it. 3716 03:10:23.719 --> 03:10:26.399 But I feel like I'd be remiss if I didn't ask, 3717 03:10:26.520 --> 03:10:29.159 And I mean, this is a part of all of. 3718 03:10:29.120 --> 03:10:31.120 These stories that. 3719 03:10:33.000 --> 03:10:35.840 You know, we don't like do entire interviews about this 3720 03:10:35.840 --> 03:10:39.440 particular subject, but it's like a part of everyone's individual journey, 3721 03:10:39.959 --> 03:10:43.040 like getting out of the military, dealing with the post 3722 03:10:43.079 --> 03:10:44.840 traumatic stress, Like what was sort. 3723 03:10:44.639 --> 03:10:47.159 Of like your personal journey like with that. Well, I 3724 03:10:47.159 --> 03:10:49.159 think a lot of that is captured in not only 3725 03:10:49.239 --> 03:10:51.840 the book twenty two, which refers to obviously the twenty 3726 03:10:51.879 --> 03:10:56.879 two veterans a day, perhaps more that take their lives statistically. 3727 03:10:57.879 --> 03:11:00.239 There are things in there that are definitely vignette from 3728 03:11:00.280 --> 03:11:04.479 my own past. But I interviewed five people who had 3729 03:11:04.840 --> 03:11:08.079 attempted or really seriously considered taking their own lives, and 3730 03:11:08.120 --> 03:11:10.280 I wrote it in hopes if someone would read it 3731 03:11:10.319 --> 03:11:13.600 and should be like, I don't need to do this. 3732 03:11:14.559 --> 03:11:19.600 So but that was one way of coping. The other one, 3733 03:11:19.760 --> 03:11:22.040 as I was transitioning, particularly as an officer, there was 3734 03:11:22.040 --> 03:11:27.680 a lot of pressure I felt to fit a certain role, like, hey, 3735 03:11:27.680 --> 03:11:29.399 you're getting out, you're an officer, this is the skills 3736 03:11:29.399 --> 03:11:30.840 you have. You can go work for this company and 3737 03:11:30.879 --> 03:11:33.440 you'll make all this money and you'll be working work. 3738 03:11:33.280 --> 03:11:36.879 For this defense contract or go get your MBA bank. 3739 03:11:36.559 --> 03:11:39.879 Whatever it happened, right, and I felt like, this is 3740 03:11:39.879 --> 03:11:42.639 not where I want to be, this isn't this doesn't 3741 03:11:42.639 --> 03:11:47.000 feel right to me, and we're retiring and being able 3742 03:11:47.040 --> 03:11:51.280 to get out the way that I did allows me 3743 03:11:51.360 --> 03:11:54.040 a great deal of flexibility. And I captured a lot 3744 03:11:54.040 --> 03:11:56.799 of my transition challenges in the book Dream Job, and 3745 03:11:56.799 --> 03:11:59.280 that is about a guy who's literally a job interview 3746 03:11:59.319 --> 03:12:00.639 and trying to figure out what he wants to do. 3747 03:12:01.520 --> 03:12:04.639 And it is very much based upon an interview that 3748 03:12:04.680 --> 03:12:06.120 I had when I was getting out, and that was 3749 03:12:06.159 --> 03:12:07.639 the one that sort of said, Okay, you know what 3750 03:12:07.680 --> 03:12:07.959 I don't. 3751 03:12:08.000 --> 03:12:10.200 I don't have to go and do this. I can 3752 03:12:10.360 --> 03:12:14.520 be something. So it kind of like taught you what 3753 03:12:14.559 --> 03:12:15.440 you didn't want to do. 3754 03:12:16.120 --> 03:12:18.159 Yeah, I got a lot of exploration on it. In fact, 3755 03:12:18.200 --> 03:12:20.079 when I my transition program was the Honor Foundation and 3756 03:12:20.120 --> 03:12:22.040 they're very very good. Oh yeah, they're awesome. I had 3757 03:12:22.040 --> 03:12:25.479 a great transition coach. But even he said, I don't 3758 03:12:25.479 --> 03:12:27.079 know what to do with you, because well he'd have 3759 03:12:27.079 --> 03:12:29.000 been a corporate guy. He'd been an army artillery officer 3760 03:12:29.040 --> 03:12:30.959 and he had a full career. And then he'd say, hey, 3761 03:12:30.959 --> 03:12:33.040 you know, you can work for Barclays Bank. You can 3762 03:12:33.079 --> 03:12:35.399 do all this great stuff. And we were working on 3763 03:12:35.440 --> 03:12:37.319 my resume and I was sending out the cover letters 3764 03:12:37.319 --> 03:12:38.799 and we're doing mock interviews and I was like, I 3765 03:12:38.879 --> 03:12:42.239 just don't this is not me. That's not where I 3766 03:12:42.319 --> 03:12:45.360 want to be. And he's like, well, what do you 3767 03:12:45.440 --> 03:12:46.799 really want to do. I was like, I really think 3768 03:12:46.840 --> 03:12:48.280 I want to be a writer. I want to be 3769 03:12:48.280 --> 03:12:50.239 a creative. And he was like, oh my god, and 3770 03:12:50.239 --> 03:12:52.840 he said he actually knew somebody, not a military person. 3771 03:12:52.840 --> 03:12:54.280 He's like, I actually have a writer friend and he'll 3772 03:12:54.280 --> 03:12:56.239 put you in touch with her. That's cool. So he 3773 03:12:56.280 --> 03:12:58.680 did the best that he could. And then from there 3774 03:12:58.680 --> 03:13:00.520 I started having more conversations. Then I got in with 3775 03:13:00.559 --> 03:13:02.399 writing groups and different people and I had you know, 3776 03:13:02.440 --> 03:13:05.200 stuff like that, and then I got into I started writing, 3777 03:13:06.440 --> 03:13:11.239 started writing screenplays and doing some consulting work for Hollywood stuff, 3778 03:13:11.239 --> 03:13:12.920 some of the military, some of it not. And I 3779 03:13:13.000 --> 03:13:14.799 just was like, this is great. This is exactly the 3780 03:13:14.840 --> 03:13:17.040 kind of stuff that I'd like to do. Yeah. 3781 03:13:17.079 --> 03:13:19.920 I mean, I like try to like impart that too 3782 03:13:20.000 --> 03:13:24.159 on when I meet especially like younger military veterans, they 3783 03:13:24.280 --> 03:13:27.399 often have that that same mentality or idea that like, 3784 03:13:27.840 --> 03:13:30.479 you know, they have to fit inside this box, whatever 3785 03:13:30.520 --> 03:13:34.239 it is, whatever people think you should be in. But 3786 03:13:34.920 --> 03:13:37.159 just because you were in your mind a big dumb 3787 03:13:37.239 --> 03:13:39.479 ranger doesn't mean you can't go to college and get. 3788 03:13:39.399 --> 03:13:41.239 A PhD if that's what you want to do. 3789 03:13:41.319 --> 03:13:44.719 Absolutely, And you know, I think we should really encourage 3790 03:13:44.799 --> 03:13:47.319 veterans to go out there and go as far as 3791 03:13:47.360 --> 03:13:48.120 they possibly can. 3792 03:13:48.200 --> 03:13:52.159 Well. I think there's a big disconnect with between society 3793 03:13:52.200 --> 03:13:55.000 and debts. I really do. And not just special ops guys, 3794 03:13:55.040 --> 03:13:58.559 because I mean, we're we're interesting, right, We're you know, 3795 03:13:58.879 --> 03:14:01.799 people love the books, it's true, But I talked about 3796 03:14:01.840 --> 03:14:05.479 the like Scott's book about Ramadi, I mean his experience. 3797 03:14:05.600 --> 03:14:07.120 When I was reading it, like I knew that he 3798 03:14:07.159 --> 03:14:09.120 had been there, but I was like, oh, yeah, I 3799 03:14:09.159 --> 03:14:10.840 haven't been involved in that kind of stuff. Like he 3800 03:14:11.159 --> 03:14:13.600 really had some some serious challenges. And he even talks 3801 03:14:13.600 --> 03:14:16.159 about his own PTS. I like to call it, you know, 3802 03:14:16.319 --> 03:14:20.479 post traumatic stress by disorder, because you don't have a disorder. 3803 03:14:21.319 --> 03:14:23.440 Something happened to you. It's a pretty normal thing and 3804 03:14:23.479 --> 03:14:25.360 you have to unpack this, and you know, and there's 3805 03:14:25.399 --> 03:14:27.879 a whole bunch, there's a whole a group of female 3806 03:14:27.920 --> 03:14:31.120 marines or veterans who have been overlooked in all of this. 3807 03:14:31.159 --> 03:14:32.239 And this is one of the why I wrote my 3808 03:14:32.239 --> 03:14:35.360 book Athena, which is you know, really focusing on a 3809 03:14:35.399 --> 03:14:39.319 group of CST Cultural Support Team women that worked with me. 3810 03:14:39.360 --> 03:14:42.120 And I didn't base it on them particularly, but I've 3811 03:14:42.120 --> 03:14:44.879 interviewed five women who were involved in FET teams and 3812 03:14:45.000 --> 03:14:46.840 had been you know, whether they were in special ops 3813 03:14:46.920 --> 03:14:49.639 or otherwise, and I tried to get a handle on 3814 03:14:49.760 --> 03:14:53.840 like what it was like for them to be you know, 3815 03:14:54.079 --> 03:14:55.239 I was like, you know, at least the least I 3816 03:14:55.280 --> 03:14:57.399 could do is try and come up with something, and 3817 03:14:57.639 --> 03:15:08.440 that is at least a recognition to sacrifice. And so 3818 03:15:10.159 --> 03:15:13.319 the VET population is I mean, I was growing up 3819 03:15:13.399 --> 03:15:15.799 Vietnam books were everywhere, and you always knew a Vietnam VET, 3820 03:15:15.840 --> 03:15:17.760 and they always talked about it in our capacity with 3821 03:15:17.879 --> 03:15:20.120 deal things like things ended in August twenty twenty one 3822 03:15:20.159 --> 03:15:23.079 in Afghanistan and it was just over. And when the 3823 03:15:23.120 --> 03:15:26.280 State Department is just like eh, and Joe Biden's like, 3824 03:15:26.319 --> 03:15:29.200 I reject the study of Abvigat and what happened there, 3825 03:15:29.639 --> 03:15:31.799 And then you've got Blincoln saying, what do I care 3826 03:15:31.840 --> 03:15:34.000 about a bunch of vets? Just some vets being pissed 3827 03:15:34.040 --> 03:15:37.440 off about the anniversary, Like what does that say to Like, 3828 03:15:37.600 --> 03:15:41.920 we carried this man, We carried this for twenty years 3829 03:15:42.680 --> 03:15:45.799 alone and we felt alone, and we felt alone in 3830 03:15:45.840 --> 03:15:48.680 our own world and we were like, remember nine to eleven, 3831 03:15:49.000 --> 03:15:50.319 what's gonna What are we gonna do? 3832 03:15:50.360 --> 03:15:52.000 The military is gonna take care of it. Now all 3833 03:15:52.040 --> 03:15:54.360 of those guys are really alone. I mean when they 3834 03:15:54.360 --> 03:15:56.959 were in theater, they fought together as a team, but 3835 03:15:57.040 --> 03:15:59.280 now they're out there by themselves, like really having to 3836 03:15:59.280 --> 03:16:02.000 think about this off and consider like, well, what does 3837 03:16:02.040 --> 03:16:02.399 it mean. 3838 03:16:03.159 --> 03:16:09.879 It's it's very it's it's difficult, and people have a 3839 03:16:09.920 --> 03:16:13.680 difficult time expressing that and they want you know, when 3840 03:16:13.680 --> 03:16:15.639 I was talking with guys at twenty two, I did 3841 03:16:15.639 --> 03:16:21.239 the interview with Chris Meyer on his Profiles and Havoc podcast, 3842 03:16:21.840 --> 03:16:23.440 and he's like why, He asked me, why why do 3843 03:16:23.479 --> 03:16:25.079 you think people are Why do they kill themselves? And 3844 03:16:25.120 --> 03:16:28.520 I think it's shame they're they're there. They they have 3845 03:16:28.600 --> 03:16:31.760 nothing to be ashamed of, but they feel so lost 3846 03:16:31.840 --> 03:16:35.520 and they feel so un acknowledged. 3847 03:16:36.159 --> 03:16:38.799 They feel like they've become invisible. It's not their shame 3848 03:16:38.879 --> 03:16:40.000 to carry, but they do. 3849 03:16:40.120 --> 03:16:42.559 Unfortunately, well, right, but but it becomes really hard for 3850 03:16:42.600 --> 03:16:44.399 someone to understand that. And when I was, you know, 3851 03:16:44.399 --> 03:16:47.040 in dream job, as part of that interview, you know, 3852 03:16:47.040 --> 03:16:48.719 the questions that people asked me, it was finally like 3853 03:16:50.159 --> 03:16:54.600 are you serious? And then I realized, like they have 3854 03:16:54.760 --> 03:17:00.959 absolutely no clue and I and so then they just said, well, okay, 3855 03:17:01.000 --> 03:17:03.360 it's up to me, or at least I'm going to 3856 03:17:03.440 --> 03:17:06.040 take this on and I'm going to try to bridge 3857 03:17:06.040 --> 03:17:07.760 this gap a little bit. And I don't I I 3858 03:17:09.000 --> 03:17:12.559 love I don't mind doing corporate I'm not I'm not 3859 03:17:13.639 --> 03:17:15.360 going to go work in corporate environment, but I don't 3860 03:17:15.399 --> 03:17:17.280 mind talking to corporations and people about how to be 3861 03:17:17.520 --> 03:17:19.680 better leaders and be better in touch, and how to 3862 03:17:19.680 --> 03:17:24.520 better understand and and and work with veterans. That's really important. 3863 03:17:25.680 --> 03:17:31.000 So and writing is a great is my vehicle, you know, 3864 03:17:31.040 --> 03:17:34.479 it's it's the thing that they like doing. Where can 3865 03:17:34.520 --> 03:17:37.639 people go to find the books Amazon dot com. You 3866 03:17:37.680 --> 03:17:39.879 can also go to my website, which is Ivan f 3867 03:17:40.000 --> 03:17:42.280 Ingram dot com. Not very original, but it's got all 3868 03:17:42.319 --> 03:17:43.639 my stuff there, all my contact information. 3869 03:17:44.079 --> 03:17:46.479 We'll have some links down the description for folks who 3870 03:17:46.479 --> 03:17:49.760 are listening to this podcast on YouTube or wherever they 3871 03:17:49.840 --> 03:17:50.879 listen to podcast. 3872 03:17:50.600 --> 03:17:53.440 They've made it this far. They no, it'll be down 3873 03:17:53.440 --> 03:17:54.120 there regardless. 3874 03:17:54.239 --> 03:17:58.559 Actually, anything else you want to tell folks about that 3875 03:17:58.600 --> 03:17:59.959 you're working on right now. 3876 03:18:00.440 --> 03:18:02.840 Well, I've got a I've got a companion screenplay of 3877 03:18:02.879 --> 03:18:06.440 Troops in Contact, which I've been negotiating in negotiations with 3878 03:18:06.920 --> 03:18:11.319 a couple of different entities to see about getting produced. 3879 03:18:12.239 --> 03:18:14.200 I don't have any any bites, but I would really 3880 03:18:14.239 --> 03:18:17.760 like to push that at some point. And then I've 3881 03:18:17.799 --> 03:18:20.840 been working on this rather interesting project for the last 3882 03:18:20.840 --> 03:18:24.799 couple of years called Torchlight, and it is about the 3883 03:18:24.879 --> 03:18:28.840 Japanese American experience in World War Two, and not just 3884 03:18:28.879 --> 03:18:31.239 to focus on the four to forty second and one 3885 03:18:31.280 --> 03:18:36.719 hundredth Infantry Regiment or four to forty second Infantry Regiment 3886 03:18:37.440 --> 03:18:41.799 Regimental Combat Team, but also the Japanese American experience of 3887 03:18:41.879 --> 03:18:46.600 incarceration as was laid out by our United States governments 3888 03:18:46.840 --> 03:18:50.520 as a war policy. And then it goes from there 3889 03:18:50.600 --> 03:18:54.520 into we're trying to plan it as an eight store 3890 03:18:54.639 --> 03:18:59.040 or eight episode arc that really examines not only things 3891 03:18:59.040 --> 03:19:02.239 that happened in World War Two, but post war as 3892 03:19:02.600 --> 03:19:05.799 they were. Eventually there was a lot of repatriations, and 3893 03:19:06.280 --> 03:19:08.360 you know, this is one of the most highly decorated 3894 03:19:08.399 --> 03:19:11.879 combat units ever. I think I've got eighteen Medals of Honor, 3895 03:19:13.120 --> 03:19:17.559 many of which were post war awarded, the last of 3896 03:19:17.600 --> 03:19:20.799 which the last of which were given by President Obama. 3897 03:19:20.840 --> 03:19:23.200 So we're talking about a huge legacy his story in 3898 03:19:23.239 --> 03:19:27.280 the United States that has been overlooked. There's a lot 3899 03:19:27.319 --> 03:19:30.719 of stuff in there that is germane to things that 3900 03:19:30.760 --> 03:19:33.159 are happening in this country, you know today, and it 3901 03:19:33.200 --> 03:19:35.639 seems like we should be better than that. But I've 3902 03:19:35.680 --> 03:19:37.639 been working on that for a while. Got a great 3903 03:19:37.680 --> 03:19:42.200 pitch deck. Just the pilot is really tight. It's awesome. Look, 3904 03:19:42.239 --> 03:19:46.159 we're looking for producers, directors, and you know actors. It's 3905 03:19:46.200 --> 03:19:49.000 a diverse cast, not just for Japanese Americans but also 3906 03:19:49.520 --> 03:19:52.520 you know actors in general. But we're really looking for 3907 03:19:52.520 --> 03:19:54.719 for for backing. We're looking for people to get involved 3908 03:19:54.719 --> 03:19:56.000 in it because it's a it's a heck of a 3909 03:19:56.040 --> 03:19:58.399 story and it's it's one of the it's one of 3910 03:19:58.479 --> 03:20:01.920 the things I'm I wouldn't keep writing on something that 3911 03:20:02.959 --> 03:20:05.600 I don't enjoy, and I want to see this thing 3912 03:20:05.959 --> 03:20:07.680 get made and want to see I'm working with a 3913 03:20:07.680 --> 03:20:09.760 great team of people with this thing, and it's just 3914 03:20:09.840 --> 03:20:12.840 really it's an important chapter. It's great and it needs 3915 03:20:12.680 --> 03:20:17.799 it just needs to be told. Really really happy on that. So, yeah, 3916 03:20:18.200 --> 03:20:21.600 I write a lot, and I try and keep keep everything. 3917 03:20:23.600 --> 03:20:25.719 I try and keep everything aligned. But every once in 3918 03:20:25.760 --> 03:20:27.159 a while, I'm like, you know, that'd be a neat project. 3919 03:20:27.200 --> 03:20:29.920 I think I wrote a thriller as well that I'm 3920 03:20:29.920 --> 03:20:31.559 in the process of trying to get cleaned up to 3921 03:20:31.879 --> 03:20:36.520 move for publishing as well. But that's that's another another thing. 3922 03:20:36.719 --> 03:20:40.000 Come to a thriller fest in June here in Manhattan 3923 03:20:40.120 --> 03:20:45.479 or not. We're in Brooklyn, but it's a Manhattan really Okay, uh, fantastic. Yeah, 3924 03:20:45.559 --> 03:20:48.520 I'm going to be there. Well, yeah, this would be great. 3925 03:20:49.600 --> 03:20:55.079 Yeah. So it's I would not I would not do 3926 03:20:55.159 --> 03:20:59.159 anything else. I really wouldn't. I mean, you know, the 3927 03:20:59.200 --> 03:21:01.280 hours long and at least the pay socks and so. 3928 03:21:02.600 --> 03:21:04.399 But I did that. You know, when people say you're 3929 03:21:04.440 --> 03:21:06.159 in the military, you can do this, You'll just get 3930 03:21:06.200 --> 03:21:07.280 paid more. I was like, you know what, I'll work 3931 03:21:07.280 --> 03:21:08.920 at for long hours for myself and have a lot 3932 03:21:08.959 --> 03:21:09.760 more fun. Dude. 3933 03:21:09.840 --> 03:21:15.520 I've worked in journalism, I've written novels, written articles, been 3934 03:21:16.040 --> 03:21:20.879 a podcaster, bro done all these different things. But yeah, 3935 03:21:20.959 --> 03:21:23.360 it doesn't pay worth a shit. But I would be 3936 03:21:23.399 --> 03:21:25.680 bored as fuck working in corporate America. 3937 03:21:25.840 --> 03:21:27.920 Like there's no way I could do that. I couldn't 3938 03:21:27.920 --> 03:21:29.399 do it either. And that was, like I said, they 3939 03:21:29.399 --> 03:21:31.399 were just like, well, this is an easy transition for 3940 03:21:31.479 --> 03:21:34.399 you because you'll you've already worked the long hours. We 3941 03:21:34.399 --> 03:21:37.280 should just get rewarded for it appropriately. And I know 3942 03:21:37.360 --> 03:21:39.120 guys who did that and they got out, they gained 3943 03:21:39.159 --> 03:21:41.280 fifty pounds, are losing their hair. Not that I'm a 3944 03:21:41.360 --> 03:21:43.000 spring chicken, but I mean just sitting there, you know, 3945 03:21:43.040 --> 03:21:47.239 trying to look at looking at what they do. It 3946 03:21:47.440 --> 03:21:52.079 just that isn't for me. Yeah, And I just I 3947 03:21:52.120 --> 03:21:55.840 love the flexibility. And I you know, I had to 3948 03:21:55.840 --> 03:21:59.280 ask my boss for a day off today and he 3949 03:21:59.600 --> 03:22:02.280 said to go ahead. I E me so I I 3950 03:22:02.319 --> 03:22:04.920 And that's that's great. That's great too. But the flexibility 3951 03:22:05.079 --> 03:22:09.079 is unmatched and it's it's really a wonderful, uh way 3952 03:22:09.120 --> 03:22:13.520 to spend retirement. And I've got I got a lot 3953 03:22:13.520 --> 03:22:15.239 of I'm having a lot of fun with it, a 3954 03:22:15.280 --> 03:22:15.799 lot of fun. 3955 03:22:16.600 --> 03:22:18.840 Anything else you want to tell folks about before we 3956 03:22:18.920 --> 03:22:21.520 get going? And do we have any questions stick oh 3957 03:22:21.559 --> 03:22:25.280 boyd question okay. 3958 03:22:24.959 --> 03:22:26.280 Uh from Corbyn. 3959 03:22:26.520 --> 03:22:29.399 How do you see the core retooling, uh, the soft 3960 03:22:29.440 --> 03:22:36.520 tool kit in the near future if they do it all. 3961 03:22:36.840 --> 03:22:39.239 I guess it really depends on what we mean by 3962 03:22:39.840 --> 03:22:46.360 soft toolkit, because if we're talking about equipment, the MARSOK 3963 03:22:46.440 --> 03:22:49.600 is pretty adaptive. They they're innovative and go out and 3964 03:22:49.600 --> 03:22:53.000 look for for stuff. I think probably though in a 3965 03:22:53.120 --> 03:22:57.399 larger scale. Uh. The one thing that MARSAC has or 3966 03:22:57.440 --> 03:22:59.639 the Marine Corps has done well that the other services 3967 03:22:59.680 --> 03:23:04.840 have not with their special operations is kept MARSAC close. 3968 03:23:05.280 --> 03:23:11.159 And there's disadvantages to that for sure, But I believe 3969 03:23:11.200 --> 03:23:15.120 that the Marine Corps has come around to the idea 3970 03:23:15.399 --> 03:23:21.440 that MARSAK is valuable and it's better to be interactive 3971 03:23:21.959 --> 03:23:24.840 and interoperable than it is to have these two separate 3972 03:23:24.840 --> 03:23:27.840 camps that don't really talk to each other, and that 3973 03:23:28.600 --> 03:23:31.000 is something that needs to happen. In fact, that weighs 3974 03:23:31.040 --> 03:23:35.120 down at the twenty six MEU and their command the 3975 03:23:35.120 --> 03:23:37.959 Command group last or two weeks ago talking to him 3976 03:23:38.000 --> 03:23:41.719 about this very thing, because the commander was actually the 3977 03:23:41.760 --> 03:23:45.360 operations officer on that obviously lightning mission back in twenty sixteen, 3978 03:23:45.399 --> 03:23:47.639 and now he's you know, he's running a mewe himself, 3979 03:23:48.079 --> 03:23:50.239 and he has already seen the value and he's like, Okay, 3980 03:23:50.239 --> 03:23:52.440 we need my people need to know this because they 3981 03:23:52.479 --> 03:23:54.959 didn't get the exposure in the ability to run a 3982 03:23:55.000 --> 03:23:58.159 mission like that. And he sees what's happening next. So 3983 03:23:58.840 --> 03:24:01.719 I think that's a big, a big way that the 3984 03:24:01.760 --> 03:24:07.000 Marine Corps and marsak can can can meet together and 3985 03:24:07.040 --> 03:24:09.159 that that doesn't always happened. But like you get into 3986 03:24:09.479 --> 03:24:11.719 the Army and USUS sockets its own entity and you 3987 03:24:11.719 --> 03:24:14.639 don't really see a lot of interoperability, and rangers just 3988 03:24:14.639 --> 03:24:17.399 wouldn't go out and work with another organization. I mean 3989 03:24:17.399 --> 03:24:20.000 they barely work outside of Jaysok period. I mean I 3990 03:24:20.040 --> 03:24:21.719 mean that's by design. I mean that's that's what he's 3991 03:24:21.760 --> 03:24:22.159 worth there for. 3992 03:24:22.440 --> 03:24:26.760 So cool, we got one more from Tomes Great stuff, Ivan. 3993 03:24:26.879 --> 03:24:29.239 What are some of the story some other stories you 3994 03:24:29.280 --> 03:24:32.239 want to get told about the Marines or the military 3995 03:24:32.239 --> 03:24:32.760 in general. 3996 03:24:34.559 --> 03:24:38.559 Wow, there's a lot of I mean, never run out 3997 03:24:38.559 --> 03:24:44.200 of material, right, I mean you as we've done the 3998 03:24:44.239 --> 03:24:49.399 research talking about tors Light, we first started out looking 3999 03:24:49.440 --> 03:24:51.879 at just the four forty second because that had been 4000 03:24:52.159 --> 03:24:53.959 seen before. You know, that had been seen before, and 4001 03:24:54.000 --> 03:25:00.159 it was in certain people's It was in there. It 4002 03:25:00.200 --> 03:25:03.479 was in there at least their wheelhouse as far as knowledge, 4003 03:25:03.799 --> 03:25:07.680 because people have heard about the Japanese American combat unit. 4004 03:25:07.719 --> 03:25:12.479 Daniel Annoy was a center to his metal money in 4005 03:25:12.520 --> 03:25:17.879 the popular culture. In the Karate Hid Mister Miyagi is 4006 03:25:19.079 --> 03:25:21.159 they make full reference to him being in the four 4007 03:25:21.200 --> 03:25:23.040 to forty second there's a scene where he's drunk, you know, 4008 03:25:23.079 --> 03:25:25.920 talking about his wife having passed away, and he's in 4009 03:25:25.959 --> 03:25:29.680 his uniform and you know, he's he's got all of 4010 03:25:29.680 --> 03:25:32.360 the letters laid out and his wife and he who 4011 03:25:33.040 --> 03:25:35.639 in the letter. They talk about him her dying in 4012 03:25:35.680 --> 03:25:38.840 the man's in our camp, and then he passes out 4013 03:25:38.840 --> 03:25:45.879 and that's when Daniel, you know, finds the Medal of 4014 03:25:45.920 --> 03:25:48.040 Honor and he's like, oh my gosh, I didn't really 4015 03:25:48.040 --> 03:25:49.920 know about this. And so what's powerful about that scene 4016 03:25:49.959 --> 03:25:54.360 is that nothing is really said. It's just like they've 4017 03:25:54.360 --> 03:25:58.840 discovered this hero, which is which is how it goes down, 4018 03:25:59.040 --> 03:26:01.799 all right. And so but as we were doing the research, 4019 03:26:03.040 --> 03:26:06.719 we found that there were Japanese Americans who had served 4020 03:26:06.840 --> 03:26:09.440 with Merrill's Marauders and there were guys in the oss, 4021 03:26:09.600 --> 03:26:12.959 and there were there were women who had roles, and 4022 03:26:13.000 --> 03:26:15.959 there was just so much more to the story. So 4023 03:26:16.159 --> 03:26:18.719 unpacking and uncovering that kind of stuff led, you know, 4024 03:26:18.719 --> 03:26:20.280 as we were writing it and have been coming up 4025 03:26:20.319 --> 03:26:22.799 with the arc. It's just been like, we got to 4026 03:26:22.840 --> 03:26:25.120 include this one and we got to add another episode 4027 03:26:25.120 --> 03:26:27.719 on that, because so when you know the larger picture 4028 03:26:27.760 --> 03:26:31.159 of the military stories, I mean you you could open 4029 03:26:31.200 --> 03:26:34.879 it up, you know, in any in any direction. It 4030 03:26:34.920 --> 03:26:37.440 blows my mind. A movie hasn't been made about Eagle Claw, 4031 03:26:37.559 --> 03:26:40.239 movie hasn't been made about Sante, Like those were both 4032 03:26:41.479 --> 03:26:42.520 gripping schools. 4033 03:26:42.680 --> 03:26:45.239 We still have not gotten like a mac Vie Saga move. 4034 03:26:45.719 --> 03:26:49.440 I mean there's a trepidation. I think to this day 4035 03:26:49.639 --> 03:26:52.760 just a Striker Meyer movie would be enough. Deck Meto's 4036 03:26:52.799 --> 03:26:55.440 biopic John John's awesome, you know what I mean, like 4037 03:26:55.479 --> 03:26:58.000 that just the kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, I. 4038 03:26:58.600 --> 03:27:02.600 Think there is a hesitation to this day about making 4039 03:27:02.920 --> 03:27:06.399 a Vietnam war film that isn't explicitly anti war. 4040 03:27:06.639 --> 03:27:07.600 Well, like we don't. 4041 03:27:07.399 --> 03:27:09.360 Really know how to process that well, And that's what 4042 03:27:09.360 --> 03:27:11.440 I think happens in You're I'm sorry, I cut you up. 4043 03:27:12.719 --> 03:27:15.239 I think that's what that is one of the challenges. 4044 03:27:15.280 --> 03:27:18.159 Like first, as we have found in the Red you know, 4045 03:27:18.479 --> 03:27:20.680 as we've been pitching this and talking to people, you 4046 03:27:20.680 --> 03:27:22.719 get people who are interested in the story, they like 4047 03:27:23.319 --> 03:27:25.879 the overall tone, They're like okay, and then they're like, 4048 03:27:26.000 --> 03:27:29.639 but historical stuff is hard to make and it becomes 4049 03:27:29.639 --> 03:27:32.200 a niche thing, and I'm just like, well, then stop 4050 03:27:32.200 --> 03:27:33.959 it from making Masters of the Air or Greyhound or 4051 03:27:34.000 --> 03:27:35.200 any of these other movies. 4052 03:27:35.520 --> 03:27:38.440 Not really, man, I mean, like World War two movies 4053 03:27:38.479 --> 03:27:40.200 have a pretty prominent place. 4054 03:27:39.920 --> 03:27:41.920 And you don't want to see a movie about eighteen 4055 03:27:41.959 --> 03:27:43.799 Medal of honor like Unit that had eighteen Medals of 4056 03:27:43.799 --> 03:27:47.879 Honor and liberated docou like this unit did all kinds 4057 03:27:47.920 --> 03:27:50.360 of crazy stuff and actually very short period of time. Yeah, 4058 03:27:50.559 --> 03:27:54.040 but I mean, you could do stuff on the Jedburgs. 4059 03:27:54.079 --> 03:27:58.760 You could do stuff on Peter Ortiz. The Marine's a marine, 4060 03:27:58.760 --> 03:28:00.799 you served, you too, Navy Crosses, he's sort of in 4061 03:28:01.360 --> 03:28:02.120 the oss. 4062 03:28:02.639 --> 03:28:05.879 It blows my mind that here we are in twenty 4063 03:28:06.040 --> 03:28:09.600 twenty five and there is still new information about World 4064 03:28:09.680 --> 03:28:12.799 War Two like coming to light like I never would 4065 03:28:12.799 --> 03:28:15.239 have thought I'd think, like the case is closed. We 4066 03:28:15.280 --> 03:28:19.760 had a guy Jassic here a few months back who 4067 03:28:19.879 --> 03:28:23.680 like found an oss memoir and like an archive somewhere 4068 03:28:23.760 --> 03:28:26.639 that had like never been published, like like all this 4069 03:28:26.840 --> 03:28:27.840 crazy stuff. 4070 03:28:28.399 --> 03:28:30.399 I think a lot of this stuff gets overshadowed though 4071 03:28:30.399 --> 03:28:33.360 by things like Lionis And I'm not cutting on you know, 4072 03:28:33.920 --> 03:28:37.719 the success of another writer, but there's sensationalism there that 4073 03:28:37.760 --> 03:28:40.600 people want to see. Yeah, and so you know, the 4074 03:28:40.680 --> 03:28:46.319 challenge we had, particularly with towards Light, is that the 4075 03:28:46.479 --> 03:28:49.040 history alone was interesting enough you don't need to hype 4076 03:28:49.040 --> 03:28:51.159 it up. Well, and then that's where people are like, well, 4077 03:28:51.319 --> 03:28:53.680 do we have a central antagonist here? We're like, well, 4078 03:28:53.719 --> 03:28:55.920 we actually know we yeah, we do do. It's the 4079 03:28:56.000 --> 03:28:59.879 US government, but but there's Nazi Germany, there's the job, 4080 03:29:00.040 --> 03:29:01.799 there's all kinds of stuff. And they would but what 4081 03:29:01.840 --> 03:29:04.040 they wanted was some of this Darth Vader character, like 4082 03:29:04.079 --> 03:29:07.040 something that you do you know, it's just is hanging 4083 03:29:07.639 --> 03:29:10.200 over them, and I'm like, that's not how this works. 4084 03:29:10.200 --> 03:29:11.639 And We're and and we want to be true to 4085 03:29:11.680 --> 03:29:14.440 the people and the families, I mean, because these you know, 4086 03:29:14.440 --> 03:29:16.920 we were basing this on really unreal people, Unlike we're 4087 03:29:16.920 --> 03:29:21.000 in the troops in contact. Yeah, parallels my book, but 4088 03:29:21.120 --> 03:29:25.120 I I was able to take full liberties in areas 4089 03:29:25.120 --> 03:29:27.319 with that, with with people who you know, in locations 4090 03:29:27.319 --> 03:29:28.959 that I don't have to make those real. 4091 03:29:29.120 --> 03:29:32.159 What did you think of Flags of Our Fathers and 4092 03:29:32.239 --> 03:29:33.319 Letters from You Regima? 4093 03:29:33.719 --> 03:29:38.600 I actually thought they were excellent, excellent films. Yeah, I 4094 03:29:38.600 --> 03:29:42.040 mean Letters from You Regima is a really really incredible, 4095 03:29:42.120 --> 03:29:46.120 incredible film. What I mean, You're gonna have very few, 4096 03:29:47.399 --> 03:29:52.040 uh directors who have the horsepower like Eastwood, I mean, 4097 03:29:52.360 --> 03:29:54.760 the balls well to do it, and some guys get 4098 03:29:54.799 --> 03:29:56.799 away with it and some guys don't. And so like 4099 03:29:56.879 --> 03:30:00.079 Kevin Coster tried with with Horizon because you know, he 4100 03:30:00.079 --> 03:30:01.440 he put his own money against it and he's got 4101 03:30:01.479 --> 03:30:05.840 a fantastic production company. But he was like, hey, I'm 4102 03:30:05.879 --> 03:30:07.200 going to do this because I want to do this 4103 03:30:07.239 --> 03:30:10.000 as a as a as a as a picture because 4104 03:30:10.000 --> 03:30:11.879 it's something it's interesting to me. As far as the West, 4105 03:30:11.920 --> 03:30:15.399 because he does like making Westerns, whereas Eastwood has got 4106 03:30:15.440 --> 03:30:17.040 such a diverse thing and just to be able to 4107 03:30:17.040 --> 03:30:18.079 be like, you know what, I'm going to take on 4108 03:30:18.159 --> 03:30:22.200 a Japanese perspective of World War Two in e Regima 4109 03:30:22.680 --> 03:30:25.360 when they're thinking when everyone thinks of regema, they're thinking 4110 03:30:26.120 --> 03:30:29.559 John Wayne or you know basilone in the Pacific, you know, 4111 03:30:30.399 --> 03:30:37.159 the series of the Pacific. So yeah, there's risk in everything, 4112 03:30:37.440 --> 03:30:38.920 and there's really there was risk in in our in 4113 03:30:38.959 --> 03:30:41.479 our military careers. There's risk in being a writer. And 4114 03:30:41.520 --> 03:30:45.319 someone told me once like, don't read the comments. Someone's like, 4115 03:30:45.680 --> 03:30:48.920 you know when you Rick Rubin is a very famous 4116 03:30:49.239 --> 03:30:52.520 uh producer. He produced Run DMC and the Avitt Brothers. 4117 03:30:52.600 --> 03:30:54.520 You want to talk about two different, you know, very 4118 03:30:54.559 --> 03:30:57.680 different musical you know, He's just like, I hear stuff 4119 03:30:57.680 --> 03:30:59.319 that I know is going to sell and I and 4120 03:30:59.319 --> 03:31:01.000 I want to help you developed that. But he takes 4121 03:31:01.040 --> 03:31:02.879 huge risk on that. And he wrote a great book 4122 03:31:04.959 --> 03:31:07.399 which just popped out of my mind. But you know, 4123 03:31:07.520 --> 03:31:12.840 he he's like, once you release the book, the record, 4124 03:31:13.040 --> 03:31:16.360 the movie, it's out. There is a piece of art 4125 03:31:16.360 --> 03:31:18.319 that you've created, and how people receive it is not 4126 03:31:18.479 --> 03:31:20.959 up to you, right, and you wish that they would 4127 03:31:20.959 --> 03:31:24.319 all love it. But there are dudes who passed on 4128 03:31:24.360 --> 03:31:26.760 the Beatles. There's dudes who passed on the Rolling Stones. 4129 03:31:27.040 --> 03:31:29.719 There are people who don't like you know, any number 4130 03:31:29.760 --> 03:31:33.479 of paintings. There's people wh don't like George a 'keeffe, 4131 03:31:33.520 --> 03:31:35.319 who doesn't like Georgia O'Keeffe. But there are people who 4132 03:31:35.280 --> 03:31:37.719 are just you know, they're not into that kind of thing. 4133 03:31:38.159 --> 03:31:41.799 I don't understand Salvador Dali. They don't like you know, Hemingway, 4134 03:31:42.719 --> 03:31:45.000 which I think is an antithetical statement, but I mean 4135 03:31:45.920 --> 03:31:52.040 those types of those types of risks need to be taken, 4136 03:31:52.120 --> 03:31:53.040 and those stories. 4137 03:31:52.760 --> 03:31:55.399 Need to be told, and stop focus grouping the shit 4138 03:31:55.440 --> 03:31:56.120 out of everything. 4139 03:31:56.239 --> 03:31:59.559 Take some risks. Well, it's what I told go back 4140 03:31:59.600 --> 03:32:03.680 to seconds. I pulled all the guys together one time, 4141 03:32:04.680 --> 03:32:10.680 one black platoon sargant and I said, guys, I recognize 4142 03:32:10.680 --> 03:32:13.040 that you've got a ton of experience and I'm here 4143 03:32:13.079 --> 03:32:17.600 to learn. I'm also here to lead, and I'm asking 4144 03:32:17.639 --> 03:32:22.360 you to take a chance, take a chance on me, 4145 03:32:23.440 --> 03:32:26.040 and if you do that, I'll make it worth your while. 4146 03:32:27.239 --> 03:32:29.600 So anybody who wants to take a chance on my projects, 4147 03:32:30.680 --> 03:32:35.680 and I hope they're out there, I'll absolutely make it 4148 03:32:35.719 --> 03:32:36.280 worth your while. 4149 03:32:36.879 --> 03:32:42.159 So yeah, anything else before we roll out? 4150 03:32:44.399 --> 03:32:46.040 What do they say at the end of the ar 4151 03:32:46.239 --> 03:32:52.159 covered Thank you everyone who joined us. We'll see you 4152 03:32:52.200 --> 03:32:52.959 guys next time. 4153 03:32:53.040 --> 03:32:55.120 Thank you Ivan for joining us in the studio or 4154 03:32:55.120 --> 03:32:57.959 real appreciate it. Please go check out his books on Amazon, 4155 03:32:58.079 --> 03:32:59.959 check out his substack. Like I said, we'll have some 4156 03:33:00.040 --> 03:33:04.319 links down the description for those there's been a fun episode. 4157 03:33:04.360 --> 03:33:07.399 It has been my absolute pleasures. Has been great. Thank 4158 03:33:07.440 --> 03:33:09.239 you so much. I hope we can do it again sometime. 4159 03:33:10.920 --> 03:33:13.440 Maybe soon. We'll see all of you guys again next time. 4160 03:33:14.639 --> 03:33:15.639 Hey guys, it's Jack. 4161 03:33:15.719 --> 03:33:17.079 I just want to talk to you for a moment 4162 03:33:17.120 --> 03:33:19.319 about how you can support the show. If you've been 4163 03:33:19.360 --> 03:33:21.799 watching it, enjoying it, but you'd like to get a 4164 03:33:21.840 --> 03:33:24.239 little bit more involved and help us continue to do this, 4165 03:33:24.760 --> 03:33:27.840 you can check out our Patreon. It is patreon dot 4166 03:33:27.879 --> 03:33:32.000 com slash the Teamhouse, and for five dollars a month, 4167 03:33:32.079 --> 03:33:34.680 you can get access to all of these episodes of 4168 03:33:34.719 --> 03:33:38.840 The Teamhouse ad free. The same goes with our affiliated 4169 03:33:38.879 --> 03:33:43.440 podcast eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons mcmulroy. That 4170 03:33:43.520 --> 03:33:46.360 one you will also get all of those episodes ad free. 4171 03:33:46.959 --> 03:33:50.159 And you support the channel and the show, and we 4172 03:33:50.239 --> 03:33:54.200 really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has 4173 03:33:54.239 --> 03:33:58.959 helped this company, this small business survive, especially during our 4174 03:33:59.000 --> 03:34:02.239 early years, and you are what continues to help this 4175 03:34:02.319 --> 03:34:06.360 thing going even as we navigate the turbulent world of 4176 03:34:06.440 --> 03:34:09.600 YouTube advertising, so we really appreciate all of you guys. 4177 03:34:10.479 --> 03:34:12.120 There's going to be a link down in the description 4178 03:34:12.239 --> 03:34:15.719 to that Patreon page, and there is also going to 4179 03:34:15.760 --> 03:34:18.559 be a link to our new merch shop, so if 4180 03:34:18.559 --> 03:34:20.959 you guys want to go and get some Teamhouse merchandise, 4181 03:34:21.000 --> 03:34:24.520 we got stickers and we also have patches, and I 4182 03:34:24.559 --> 03:34:27.520 should mention if you sign up for Patreon at ten 4183 03:34:27.559 --> 03:34:29.879 dollars a month, we will mail you this patch as well, 4184 03:34:31.319 --> 03:34:34.719 so we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale 4185 03:34:34.760 --> 03:34:38.360 on the merch shop, and additionally, they got t shirts 4186 03:34:38.440 --> 03:34:43.159 up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all 4187 03:34:43.159 --> 03:34:45.920 that good stuff, so please go and check them out 4188 03:34:45.959 --> 03:34:46.879 and support the show. 4189 03:34:47.440 --> 03:35:00.000 We really appreciate it, guys. Thank you.