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Terms and conditions apply. 25 00:00:59.600 --> 00:00:59.960 See what. 26 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:15.640 Lost You are now listening to true Murder, The most 27 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:19.079 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 28 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:25.359 have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. 29 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:30.040 Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 30 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:34.239 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 31 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:45.719 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 32 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:49.719 Good Evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 33 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:52.879 program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime 34 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:56.480 history and the authors that have written about them. Nancy 35 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:59.640 Cooper is missing. Her husband said she went for a 36 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:03.400 job and never came home. Hundreds search for the vivacious 37 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:06.319 mother of two young girls in the upscale North Carolina neighborhood. 38 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:09.879 Days later, Nancy's body is discovered face down in a 39 00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:12.840 ditch a few miles from her home. It appears he's 40 00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:16.639 been snatched off a jogging trail and strangled, Yet focus 41 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:20.400 immediately falls on Nancy's smart, athletic and handsome husband, Brad. 42 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:24.879 Because the couple had been embroiled in a violently contentious divorce, 43 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:31.000 Dad Cooper steadfastly maintained maintains his innocence. Nancy's loved one 44 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:33.639 knows of Brad's lies and his cheating. They know he 45 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:37.039 wielded an unhealthy control over his wife. They feared with 46 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:40.080 good reason, that the strong willed Nancy was ultimately no 47 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:43.479 match for her husband's dark side. As the story unfolds 48 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:47.360 in this peaceful suburb, secrets are revealed, families are torn apart, 49 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:50.560 and a trail of damning evidence paves the path to 50 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:54.360 final justice. The book that's featured this evening is Love Lies, 51 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:57.479 a true story of marriage and murder in the Suburbs, 52 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:01.719 with my special guest journalist, author Amandalam. Thank you for 53 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:04.280 agreeing to the program and welcome back to True Murder 54 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:05.080 amand Lamb. 55 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:07.560 Thanks, thank you, Dan, happy to be here. 56 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:12.439 Thank you. Now, tell us a little bit about where 57 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:16.639 exactly this crime occurred. I know that we're we're dealing 58 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.599 with North Carolina, We're dealing with Rally, North Carolina. But 59 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:23.879 this is Is this a suburb or tell us what Carrie, North. 60 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:28.039 Carry is really the closest suburb to Raleigh. It's a 61 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:32.439 middle upper class suburb, a bedroom community. People who were 62 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:34.879 familiar with this area maybe twenty years ago, would have 63 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:37.879 called it a crossroads. And now this crossroads has turned 64 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:40.560 into a town of you know, more than one hundred 65 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:43.879 and twenty thousand people, so it's really almost a small city, 66 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.000 but it's it's very suburb and it's a sprawling suburb 67 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:52.240 with you know, manatured lawns and walking paths, and you know, 68 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:55.240 you drive around and you see kids on their bikes 69 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:58.159 and people walking their dogs and jogging, and it's just 70 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:04.719 a very serene, quiet, nice community. Was a very very 71 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:06.879 low crime rate, so that was one of the reasons 72 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:11.120 this case really catched everybody's attentions immediately. 73 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:20.439 Okay, let's start with who Nancy Cooper was, her early life, 74 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:23.399 her parents, She grew up in Edmonton, I believe, or 75 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:24.319 at least that's. 76 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:24.560 What she did. 77 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:25.319 There is a Canadian. 78 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:30.079 Yes, she grew up in Edmonton, and she met her husband, 79 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:32.680 Brad in Canada. He's also a Canadian. He's from a 80 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:36.279 small town called Pittston hat And at the time both 81 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:38.920 of them were kind of starting out in their early 82 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:44.959 professional careers. If Brad was in information technology and Nancy 83 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:47.639 was also doing some work in that area, and they 84 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:51.199 were working at the same company. They met they started dating. Actually, 85 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:53.759 Nancy had tried to fix Bred up with one of 86 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:57.759 her friends and then decided that she liked him and 87 00:04:57.839 --> 00:04:59.600 that they were more suited for each other, and it 88 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:03.279 was a it's a fairly quick romance. I mean they met, 89 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:05.319 she had been in a long term relationship prior to 90 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:08.519 that with somebody else as well as he had. They 91 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:12.040 met and within a few months decided they were going 92 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.680 to get married. They were planning a wedding for some 93 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:17.959 time down the road, maybe a year down the road. 94 00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:21.199 And as it ended up, Brad got a job in 95 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:26.199 North Carolina with a very large technology company called Cisco Systems, 96 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.319 and so as a result, he was planning to move 97 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:34.240 to North Carolina, and so he and Nancy immediately sped 98 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:36.480 up their marriage plans and just had a very very 99 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:40.360 quick wedding really with just Nancy's family and close friends. 100 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:44.040 Parents did not even attend. They were living in another 101 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:48.120 area at the time. And then Brad moved to North 102 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:51.879 Carolina and Nancy followed very quickly after that. And when 103 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:54.319 they moved to North Carolina, they immediately moved to this 104 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:58.279 area in Carrie, which, as you know, suburbs are not 105 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:03.879 walking areas, not areas that are you know, adjacent to 106 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:07.160 public transportation or to shopping areas. I mean, you have 107 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:09.040 to have a car. So that was kind of One 108 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:11.399 of their first seeking points is that they didn't have 109 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:14.040 the finances for both of them to have a vehicle, 110 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:19.160 and so soon after they moved to North Carolina, they 111 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:22.040 started talking about having a family, and eventually they did 112 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:26.199 have two little girls. And for a long time, I 113 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:30.160 think most people who knew them would have said, you know, 114 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:33.319 they were living what most people thought was the American dream. 115 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:35.160 I mean, it's in a nice house. They lived in 116 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:38.240 a nice neighborhood. They had lots of friends, they had 117 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:42.160 two beautiful daughters. They were very both very athletic, both 118 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.800 into running. Brad Cooper did iron men, you know, triathlons, 119 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:51.319 and Nancy was training for a marathon. And so from 120 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:56.199 the outside they looked like they were doing well. But 121 00:06:57.079 --> 00:06:59.800 as we learned more about them and learned more about 122 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:02.240 their marriage, that clearly was not the case. 123 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:05.279 Now let's go back for our audience a little bit, 124 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:09.240 because you do obviously paint the you know, a character 125 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:13.240 portrait of these people. Tell us a little bit about 126 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.040 Brad Cooper. Tell us about his early life, if there 127 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:20.519 was any indication whatsoever except that he would be an 128 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:26.360 exceptionally gifted person, very intelligent guy, good looking guy, athletic guy, 129 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:29.639 seem to be quite charming. Tell us a little bit 130 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:33.360 about Brad Cooper in his early life and tell us 131 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:36.040 what his family life was really like and if there 132 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:39.480 was any indication of what did happen later. 133 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:44.079 What we know about Brad Cooper is very limited because 134 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.160 he and his family have been very private throughout this 135 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:50.560 whole ordeal, and so most of what we know comes 136 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:54.639 from a deposition that he set for in the custody 137 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:58.639 case that involved their children after the murder, and he 138 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:02.480 talked about, you know, growing up in this small town. 139 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:06.399 His father was worked at the university. He was a 140 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:11.120 very accomplished, very bright man and had pushed Brad to 141 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:14.600 achieve things in his life, and Brad had followed suit. 142 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:18.399 He had one brother, and it seems like from everything 143 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:21.639 he talked about that there wasn't a lot of communication 144 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:26.639 amongst his family members, that they were very quiet, very reserved, 145 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:31.759 and that carried into his adult life. From the understanding 146 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:34.480 that we have from the people that testify in the 147 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:39.080 case and also were involved in filing affidavits in the 148 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:43.240 custody case, and they basically just talked about this stark 149 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:47.600 contrast between Brad Cooper and Nancy Cooper, which was that 150 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:52.279 Brad was just a very quiet, very reserved person. Again, 151 00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:57.799 as you mentioned, clearly very intelligent and also quite talented athlete, 152 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:02.480 but a very reserved person, and Nancy was quite the opposite. 153 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.279 I think I've heard her referred to as body saucy. 154 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:10.879 She had a great kind of crazy sense of humor 155 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:13.720 that people enjoyed. She was the less of the party, 156 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:17.679 very outgoing, very very outgoing, lots of friends, was the 157 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:19.840 kind of person that every time she met somebody, they 158 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:26.120 became a new friend. And so Brad's personality seemed to 159 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:30.360 be the polar opposite and really a start contrast to Nancy's. 160 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:34.440 And you know that may have contributed clearly to some 161 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:38.440 of the problems in their marriage, but no indication of 162 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:41.799 any I mean, he had no past criminal record, no 163 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:47.840 history of violence. There were some allegations that he did 164 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.559 have some problems with depression and that he may have 165 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:55.879 been suicidal. He himself, in his definition said that was 166 00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:59.320 not the case, but those were some allegations from Nancy's 167 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:02.200 family during the city case that they felt that he 168 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:04.279 did have some issues with depression. 169 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:08.879 Now, before we get too far into this too, maybe 170 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:11.240 you can tell us a little bit about Nancy Cooper's life, 171 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:15.639 because you did have contact with the parents, Donna Rentz 172 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:18.320 and Gary rent And tell us a little bit about 173 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:21.039 her life, because I think it's important because we'll talk 174 00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:23.320 about the custody battle and then of course they're even 175 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:27.159 important in the trial itself. But tell us about Donna 176 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:30.840 Rentz and Gary Rentz and Nancy's life growing up in 177 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:33.039 Canada and Edmonton a fairly big city in. 178 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:36.639 Canada, right, Well, I had a lot more access to 179 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:39.919 Nancy's family, so I definitely have a lot more information 180 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:45.799 about the Rents is. But Nancy came from large by 181 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:50.399 today's standards, four children, a large, loving family, a family 182 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:54.039 that loved to be together, loved to do things together. 183 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:57.000 They traveled together, they played games together, they were all 184 00:10:57.159 --> 00:11:01.639 very involved in each other's lives. And the stories of 185 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:07.759 growing up were amazing because you really got a sense 186 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:11.120 of this close knit family that whenever somebody knew came 187 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:14.600 in a boyfriend, a girlfriend, of spouse, they were just 188 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:19.120 kind of welcomed into this family and found a place 189 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:22.440 there and really fell in love with this family. And 190 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:24.960 I think Brad Cooper fell in love with this family. 191 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:28.279 And I know that they had welcomed him with open arms, 192 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:30.759 even though he was very different from Nancy, because that's 193 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:35.279 just the kind of people they were. Nancy, Donna and 194 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.639 Gary Wruntz are very bright. They own their own business. 195 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:42.919 Gary has worked in the past. He did work in 196 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:47.200 child welfare in Canada, so he did have some backgrounds 197 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:49.600 and that helped him and when he got involved in 198 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:52.919 the custom case. But all of the children and their 199 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:58.399 children come home frequently and they all again vacation together 200 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:02.200 and spend time together, and that was There were just many, many, 201 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:06.559 many stories they shared with me, like that Nancy was 202 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:12.080 an identical twin her sister, Christa Lister is now raising 203 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:15.919 her children. And she had an older brother, Jeff, who 204 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.960 is a police officer, and she also had a younger sister, Jill, 205 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:25.639 And so as I got to know them, I realized 206 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:29.200 that they really were genuinely the kind of people that 207 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:33.879 were open minded and welcomes people into their home and 208 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:36.759 into their family. And again that's what they did with 209 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:44.039 bred Cooper. So losing Nancy was literally like losing as 210 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:46.320 Jess said, it was like there's a spoke missing in 211 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:48.840 our wheel. And I think for any parent that's ever 212 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:51.240 lost a child. It's really like losing your arm or 213 00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:53.840 losing your leg. It's something that you can't imagine living without, 214 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:58.759 and yet somehow you do. But just pretty amazing people 215 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:04.000 and very gracious and very reserved in that they did 216 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.879 not lash out in anger when they could have with many, 217 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:11.519 many television cameras in their face. They chose their words 218 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.159 very carefully, and they chose to concentrate on the positive, 219 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:18.799 which was all the support they received from the community 220 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:22.639 and also from the investigators involved in the case. 221 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:27.360 Okay, now let's get back to the marriage. And you 222 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:30.440 say that they had a sort of a quiet wedding 223 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:34.559 and his parents didn't show up. Found that family didn't 224 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.320 show up at the wedding for whatever reason. I found 225 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.759 that a little bit odd. But now, at what point 226 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:42.679 and how many years have they been married, because we're 227 00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:46.480 talking about two thousand and eight here, When do these 228 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:49.039 problems surface that they have in their marriage And what 229 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:53.120 exactly specifically are the kinds of issues that are presenting 230 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:58.919 themselves as problems in the marriage from what you've researched, Well. 231 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.919 My understanding is that early on in the marriage, the 232 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:06.840 transportation issue was really one of the first sticking points, 233 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.600 which was that they had moved to the suburban community 234 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:12.240 and Nancy had no transportation. She had no way to 235 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:16.200 go to the grocery store, to go shopping, to go 236 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:19.080 see a friend. She also had no visa, so she 237 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:22.120 couldn't work. So there was a kind of an immediate 238 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:25.679 sense of being trapped in a way because she was 239 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:28.759 a woman who had worked, had a college degree, she 240 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:31.879 had owned her own store at one time, she had 241 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:35.240 had professional job in Canada, and all of a sudden 242 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:38.639 she was living in the suburbs of Raleigh, North Carolina, 243 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:42.360 with no job and no transportation. So if you ask 244 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:45.840 family members, they will say that the cracks started to 245 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:49.080 show in the relationship very early in the marriage, and 246 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:52.759 to the point where Nancy had actually come home I 247 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:54.480 think it was in the first year of marriage if 248 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.440 I recall, and said, I don't want to do this anymore. 249 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:02.320 And the family had talked to her and convinced her 250 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:06.320 to basically give it another try, and Brad had in 251 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:10.039 fact come back to Canada and asked her to give 252 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:12.919 the marriage another try. He was working a lot, and 253 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.639 so again she was left at home alone with very 254 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:19.840 few friends. At that time, she really hadn't connected with 255 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:24.080 people and had no transportation. What I'm told by the 256 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:28.679 family is that things were rocky. And then as soon 257 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:33.200 as she had her first child, a daughter named Bella, 258 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.440 things really started to improve. Because Nancy had always wanted 259 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:39.279 to be a mother and that was really one of 260 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:42.559 her biggest goals in life and one of the really 261 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:46.639 the impetus for marrying Brad very quickly, because at the 262 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:49.519 time she had been involved in Canada was a man 263 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.360 prior to Brad who she was very much in love with, 264 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:55.080 but he was older and had older children and did 265 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.600 not apparently want to have more children. But she knew 266 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.440 Brad wanted to have a family again, there was this 267 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:04.840 desire to have a family. She had this daughter and 268 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:11.240 things started to improve. Then they had the second child, 269 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:16.080 and that's when things started to go downhill. And specifically, 270 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:21.960 Nancy started to hear stories about Brad being unfaithful to her, 271 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:24.960 and one of those stories was actually that it was 272 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:30.120 one of her very close friends, and she confronted the friend. Well, 273 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:31.600 the friend told her and then. 274 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.320 She wait, the lucky land slots. You can get lucky 275 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:36.840 just about anywhere, as is. 276 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:40.080 Your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the weather's five, 277 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:41.639 But we're just going to circle up here a while 278 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.799 and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. It's just 279 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:47.399 these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest you 280 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.440 sit back, keep your trade table up right, and start getting. 281 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:53.960 Lucky pay for free at lucky landslots dot com. Are 282 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:57.639 you feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by 283 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:01.919 Law eighteen plus terms and conditions apply new website for detail. 284 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:03.639 He called her the next day and said, I want 285 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:06.440 to be clear, did this happen? And the friend told 286 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.279 her that, in fact, did happen, and she confronted Brad, 287 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:11.839 and so that was kind of the beginning of the end. 288 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.359 But there were many other issues, I think, based on 289 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:20.160 a surrounding control. If you look back again, that early 290 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:24.079 transportation issue that continued in a different way, and that 291 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.000 she was only allowed to have a certain amount of 292 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.720 gas in her car and the gas would only take 293 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:32.359 her so far, and that Brad had cut her off 294 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:36.079 from finances. His reasoning, and this is what he said 295 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:39.839 in court documents, was that she was a spendthrift and 296 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:43.200 that they were having financial problems and that he had 297 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:46.160 to budget and so he basically took her off all 298 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.720 the bank accounts, all the credit cards. She had no 299 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:51.160 access to money at all other than what he gave her, 300 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:58.039 and so that limitation again, limiting your transportation, limiting your finances. 301 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.680 And then I think the next level was that he 302 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:05.480 started to According to her family and friends, they believe 303 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:09.599 that he was monitoring her communications with them, looking at 304 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:14.079 her email, also listening to a phone calls, possibly even 305 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:20.400 disconnecting phone calls. He was an expert in voiceover internet technology, 306 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.720 which is now much more common, but at that time, 307 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:26.279 a couple of years ago, it was still kind of 308 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:30.279 in its infancy in terms of being widely used, and 309 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:32.480 he knew a lot about phones. He knew a lot 310 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:36.400 about how computers and phones and how they worked. And 311 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.279 the belief was that he was monitoring her phone calls. 312 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:43.039 And then finally, I think the last straw in the 313 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:47.400 whole control issue was that they were beginning to talk 314 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:51.559 about divorce and custody issues and they were still living 315 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:53.559 in the home together because now there's them basically could 316 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:55.880 really afford to not do that at that time, and 317 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:57.839 they were trying to figure out what the next step was, 318 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:00.119 and Nancy really wanted to go back to Canada to 319 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:04.680 be with her family, and Nancy said told her friends, 320 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:08.079 and this was later confirmed that he had taken the 321 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.519 children's passports, so she was not able to leave the country. 322 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:17.000 And so again really a lot of small things started 323 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:20.039 out as small issues but turned into much bigger issues. 324 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:25.000 Yeah, certainly, the idea that he would take the passports. 325 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:29.079 I understand he's a paranoid person that thinks that maybe 326 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:31.759 his wife will take off there having arguments that she 327 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.480 doesn't want to stay, so he takes the passports and 328 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:38.519 he's doing all this monitoring. Seems to be at that 329 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:42.960 time a very paranoid person, maybe even rightfully so, because 330 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:46.480 she's telling him that she does not want this, doesn't 331 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:49.920 want this anymore. That doesn't mean it's justifiable, but it 332 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:52.319 sort of lends itself to his paranoia. 333 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.279 Absolutely. And there was also an issue of alimony. They 334 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:03.240 again were in the beginning stages of talking about a 335 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:08.640 separation agreement, and Nancy's lawyer had drafted a very early agreement, 336 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:12.640 which is usually something that you then negotiate back and 337 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:17.799 forth for a while, but he had gotten hold of that. Again, 338 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:20.640 the belief is that he got into her email and 339 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:25.160 the alimony payments were high, and the belief was that 340 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:28.839 he just didn't want to pay those alimony payments or 341 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:32.759 the child support, and clearly she didn't work, and that 342 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:35.559 was going to be part of the deal. If she 343 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:38.279 went wherever she went, whether she went to Canada or not, 344 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:39.960 that was going to be part of the issue. So 345 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.960 there was a lot of discussion during the trial and 346 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:49.079 also during the custody battle about Brad's concern for his 347 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:53.079 finances and how a divorce would ultimately have affected him financially. 348 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:58.240 Now, in terms of the two young girls, what was 349 00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:01.160 Brad like as a father and was it more so 350 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:05.640 just the in keeping with the characteristic of control that 351 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:07.920 he didn't want them to leave, or was he going 352 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:11.119 to be a devastated father who was a good father? 353 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:13.319 I mean, I know he was busy, so he wasn't 354 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:17.079 as attentive as he could be. But would you like 355 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:17.599 as a father? 356 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:21.039 I think that there was There was a lot of 357 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:26.039 controversy about that issue. I think that in many ways 358 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.079 he was like many fathers in America and that he 359 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.839 worked long hours and as a result, his wife was 360 00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:36.359 the primary caregiver for the children. That doesn't mean he 361 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:39.279 didn't love his children. It just means that he wasn't 362 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.279 present with them in the same way that she was, 363 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:45.319 and as a result, the children had a much stronger 364 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:47.359 bond with their mother than they did with their father. 365 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:51.000 I think that people that saw Brad with the children, 366 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:54.359 and for example, if they were at a party, Brad 367 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:57.240 was not somebody that liked to socialize with adults or 368 00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:00.119 make chit chat. That just wasn't his nature. And a 369 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.799 lot of times Nancy, being the social one, would be 370 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.519 talking to the adults and Brad would be watching the 371 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:09.319 children or playing with the children. And people did witness 372 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:12.400 him playing with the children at the pool and in 373 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.559 other settings. But there was also a lot of a 374 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:20.039 lot of anecdotal evidence that he was absent for a 375 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:25.839 lot of important things in their lives, be it doctor's appointments, 376 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:29.279 things that happened at the preschool, any kind of you know, 377 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:33.400 events where they were performing, that Nancy was the one 378 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:38.720 that was there. There. Definitely, there's no doubt I don't 379 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:40.920 think that he loved his children. But then there was 380 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:46.119 also a question about the custody, and at one point 381 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:50.400 Nancy told friends that he had said, well I'll take 382 00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:52.640 one child and you take the other, which I think 383 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.839 for any of us that are parents. We couldn't even imagine, 384 00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:58.440 how could that, how could you even have on that? 385 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:01.759 And then there were some other discussion where Nancy had 386 00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:04.240 told friends that he had said, I want to spend 387 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:06.400 time with the kids and then leave and don't ever 388 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.000 come back, and I don't want to see you or 389 00:23:08.039 --> 00:23:10.359 the kids ever again. And who knows if that was 390 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.480 said in anger or if that was something that he meant. 391 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:16.079 But at the end of the day, I think the 392 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:21.079 evidence simply was that he was an absent father, not 393 00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:23.559 necessarily that he was a bad father, but that he 394 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:27.319 just wasn't present with his children. And he did again, 395 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:29.799 other than working many, many long hours. I mean, I 396 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.279 think everybody agreed that he was a workaholic. I think 397 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:36.960 he was also very involved in these Ironman triathlons, which, 398 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.640 for anybody that knows about the training for those, I 399 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:42.759 mean that's one hundred mile bike ride, a full marathon, 400 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:45.279 a swim. I mean it takes a lot of time 401 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:47.880