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<v Speaker 1>Andrew Williams, thank you for joining me on commitment.

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<v Speaker 2>To reality, pleasure to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, just to start, I'd like you to tell us

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit about who you are? Who is Andrew Williams.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a great question. Where does one start with it

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<v Speaker 2>like that? Well, I suppose I would say that my

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<v Speaker 2>faith is a very central part that divides who I am.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's a really great question because I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>something I struggled with all my life. Right, who am I?

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<v Speaker 2>And what does it mean to be me? And or

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<v Speaker 2>what does it mean, you know, to be a person?

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<v Speaker 2>How does one define one's self? And I think I

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<v Speaker 2>came to the conclusion over time, for a long time

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<v Speaker 2>that it's not possible to define an individual apart from

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<v Speaker 2>the world in which the person lives. So we're all

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<v Speaker 2>a product of our environment, of our relationships. And obviously

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<v Speaker 2>the sort of relationship is that of being made in

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<v Speaker 2>the image of God and being invited into closer communion

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<v Speaker 2>with Him. So I think, you know, that is that's

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<v Speaker 2>why I start there, I guess, and I think a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of a lot of who I am? You know,

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<v Speaker 2>in the world, what are my interests? The people associate

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<v Speaker 2>with the things that I do arise very much from

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<v Speaker 2>that combination of my own a sort of personal early experience,

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<v Speaker 2>and how that led me to faith, and how that

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<v Speaker 2>led me to the interest in mental health and the

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<v Speaker 2>roles that I've done. So I've worked in charity work

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<v Speaker 2>principally in Russia for quite a long time, and I've

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<v Speaker 2>been teacher, and I've been a psychotherapist, and I'm finally

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<v Speaker 2>a chaplain in a mental health context. So I think

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<v Speaker 2>all of those things really tied together around that experience

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<v Speaker 2>of relationship and particularly of faith.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah a question, Yes, quite, Hey, it's an open question.

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<v Speaker 1>I really the reason I ask it that way is

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<v Speaker 1>I hate going through bio roles because you're so much

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<v Speaker 1>more than just the things that you've done. Absolutely, and

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<v Speaker 1>so I feel like it's slightly reductive. People could fight

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<v Speaker 1>me on that, but to just list this is where

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<v Speaker 1>you went to school, this is you know. But the

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<v Speaker 1>main reason that I became aware of you and aware

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<v Speaker 1>of your work is your book From Object to Icon. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>I gave it a different subtitle for years. I kept

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<v Speaker 1>saying that it was from Object to Icon, Living iconographically

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<v Speaker 1>in a pornographic world, And then when I looked at

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<v Speaker 1>the book. The other day, I said, that's not it

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<v Speaker 1>at all. It's the struggle for spiritual vision in a

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<v Speaker 1>pornographic world, which is so much better because your book

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<v Speaker 1>is really well, it deals with pornography. It's not so

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<v Speaker 1>much about the problem of sex or sexuality, but a

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<v Speaker 1>problem of vision of right orientation in the world. So

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<v Speaker 1>your subtitle is a lot better than mine.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, thanks to the people of the Ancient

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<v Speaker 2>Faith for the subtitle. I didn't.

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<v Speaker 1>How did you get into this subject? And writing a

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<v Speaker 1>book is not easy? What motivated you to write a

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<v Speaker 1>book on pornography?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, to be honest, was at it was external pressure.

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<v Speaker 2>It was because I had done some of the study

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<v Speaker 2>and I'd talked about it, and then I got a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people basically saying, can we hear more about this?

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<v Speaker 2>Can you do more? Can you write a book? First

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<v Speaker 2>of all the podcasts I did a series of podcasts

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<v Speaker 2>on Ancient Faith, and then following that, can you write

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<v Speaker 2>a book? So it was really you know, I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>I definitely set out to write a book on this topic.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, I struggled quite a lot with the idea

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<v Speaker 2>of writing a book on this topic. I mean, it

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<v Speaker 2>all stemmed from actually a class when I was at

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<v Speaker 2>Holy Cross and I read I was reading Father John

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<v Speaker 2>Brett's book on I can't think what it's called now,

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<v Speaker 2>was bioethics, basically Christian etha, and he just used this

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<v Speaker 2>sort of he had a very brief paragraph on pornography,

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<v Speaker 2>but he just used this phrase demonic iconography and it

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<v Speaker 2>really stuck in my mind. And so when I had

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<v Speaker 2>the opportunity, I decided I would look at the topic

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<v Speaker 2>and I did. I remember interviewing three people, two priests

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<v Speaker 2>and an iconographer about what that, you know, how they

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<v Speaker 2>would see that this connection between the modern world's imagery

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<v Speaker 2>and how we're encouraged to look upon the world and

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<v Speaker 2>an iconography and that was so that was where it

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<v Speaker 2>all sort of started. And then I and then I

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<v Speaker 2>did a series of podcasts for Ancient Faith, and then

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<v Speaker 2>that led that lead to the book. And you'll see,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you if people who've listened to the

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<v Speaker 2>podcast will recognize some of the material in the book,

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<v Speaker 2>but the book sort of builds on that announces that's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>Well. I think the right place to start is with definition,

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<v Speaker 1>defining your terms, although I think it's going to be

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<v Speaker 1>quite difficult. How what is pornography? Because I know that

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<v Speaker 1>famous Supreme Court justice you know, said, uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I know it when I see it. Yeah, but I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's a strict legal definition, and you you talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the pornification of the world that we live in,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I think that pornography is a lot more

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<v Speaker 1>than we immediately begin to think about.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely, Well, I came to the conclusion in the

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<v Speaker 2>end that that that pornography, I mean that it legal

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<v Speaker 2>definitions aside, because I don't think a legal definition is

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<v Speaker 2>going to be good enough. So what I've got is

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<v Speaker 2>maybe less It makes it less easy to say this is,

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<v Speaker 2>this isn't. But what I would say is that looking

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<v Speaker 2>at the I thought etymology is the way. So looking

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<v Speaker 2>at the Greek roots, you know, pornia is principally things

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<v Speaker 2>to do with prostitution, But I mean, basically it's about

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<v Speaker 2>sexual unfaithfulness, and I think it's that unfaithfulness in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of relationship and union. And then obviously is to write

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<v Speaker 2>or draw or make an image. So so what we're

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<v Speaker 2>saying is that if it's an image that relates to unfaithfulness,

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<v Speaker 2>then that's pornography in that sense. And I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>actually quite good. The literal, absolutely, literal definition is quite

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<v Speaker 2>a good definition. And so you know, obviously, image is

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<v Speaker 2>a broad term and it can mean things you see,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in real life with your eyes. It can

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<v Speaker 2>mean images on paper or on digital devices. It can

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<v Speaker 2>mean video, it can mean a lot of things. And

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it can mean even writing, because you can

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<v Speaker 2>have bornographic literature, for example. So so it's anything that's

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<v Speaker 2>created that that either intentionally or unintentionally has the has

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<v Speaker 2>the effect of making us unfaithful to God, it ultimately,

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<v Speaker 2>but to but in them, you know, also to human relationships.

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<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm. And you say that we all, whether we

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<v Speaker 1>struggle with pornography explicitly or not, that we all have

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<v Speaker 1>a pornography problem. What do you mean by that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, well, I think I mean obviously I've only lived

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<v Speaker 2>in this time, in this culture, but so it's maybe

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<v Speaker 2>it's all of human history. I don't know, but certainly

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's something particularly at this time, where we're

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<v Speaker 2>encouraged to objectify and to separate the personal reality from

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<v Speaker 2>the image or how we see someone. How we think

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<v Speaker 2>of someone doesn't necessarily relate to who they really are,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's associated with the whole set of other things,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think that's all the same part of the

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<v Speaker 2>same issue basically. So so in that sense, you could

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<v Speaker 2>say a broader definition of pornography is that looking at

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<v Speaker 2>someone and not seeing them they really are, but for

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<v Speaker 2>something else. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's that objectification versus veneration, which we'll get into later.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, as I was thinking about this, I

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<v Speaker 1>started thinking about another parallel vice, which is that of gambling,

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<v Speaker 1>which has really exploded. I'm not sure about where you live,

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<v Speaker 1>but in America, gambling was legalized in many states, and

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<v Speaker 1>you've seen it pop up all over that. And I

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<v Speaker 1>had been to Vegas a couple decades ago when I

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<v Speaker 1>was younger, and it really felt different. And I went

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<v Speaker 1>to Vegas a couple of years ago. My wife had

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<v Speaker 1>a work retreat there and so I met her at

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<v Speaker 1>the end and we stayed for a couple of days.

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<v Speaker 1>Thought why not? And what struck me was how I

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<v Speaker 1>want to be careful when I say this, so, but

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<v Speaker 1>how ordinary it felt. It didn't feel like this special place.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you can find, you know, darkness wherever you look.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that what has happened is like the

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<v Speaker 1>proverbial lobster in a pot. America has become a lot

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<v Speaker 1>more like Vegas everywhere else. So when you go to

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<v Speaker 1>Vegas it almost felt more family friendly. It's like, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>gambling has left the station. That's no longer our only

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<v Speaker 1>show in town. We have to find other ways to

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<v Speaker 1>attract people.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that the new vice there is gluttony. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>some of the best food I've had in a long time,

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<v Speaker 1>So they're really really high on the culinary scale together

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<v Speaker 1>well in quality. It's that thing where it just becomes slowly.

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<v Speaker 1>The reason I talk about the lobster, the pods. It's slow,

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<v Speaker 1>and you make little concessions here, you make little concessions there.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that the same thing has happened with

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<v Speaker 1>the pornography that we all I know that there's a

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<v Speaker 1>more philosophical definition of it that we've kind of gotten into,

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<v Speaker 1>but just blatant pornography as we all understand it to be,

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<v Speaker 1>it has become much more common place to the to

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<v Speaker 1>the degree to which I think that I watch pornography

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<v Speaker 1>much more often than I even believe just watching television.

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<v Speaker 2>No, absolutely, I mean I don't. I gave up watching

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<v Speaker 2>telligence more or less. I mean, there were very few things.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll watch quiz Strais occasionally with my children, But yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I think you're right. I think it's really really pervasive

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<v Speaker 2>throughout the culture. And you can see sort of certainly

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<v Speaker 2>from the nineteen fifties onwards, are just looking at all

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<v Speaker 2>of this basic media outlets. There's a very clear path

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<v Speaker 2>that you're describing, this sort of broadening on what's considered permissible,

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<v Speaker 2>and it just keeps on expanding and expanding and expanding gently. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and so the sort of as you see it in

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<v Speaker 2>the more explicit and extreme stuff as well, so they

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<v Speaker 2>know the internet is is this really writ large so

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<v Speaker 2>that the beginnings of the Internet, there were studies done

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<v Speaker 2>about pornography and the impact of pornography, and they talked about,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, hardcore pornography and extreme but what they were

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<v Speaker 2>calling hardcore and extreme pornography is now absolutely run at

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<v Speaker 2>the mill and there are far more extreme and hardcore

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<v Speaker 2>things out there. So it's the same on every level.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this has been working. It's really it's really

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<v Speaker 2>fascinating to look at some of those early studies and

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<v Speaker 2>see what they were absolutely shocked by finding, which you

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<v Speaker 2>know now is considered relatively mild.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it's pernicious. I mean, I remember I grew

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<v Speaker 1>up in the well My first exposure of the Internet

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<v Speaker 1>growing up was late nineties really, and I remember in

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<v Speaker 1>counting pornography and it was often through pop ups where

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<v Speaker 1>it would just pop up and you oh, and as

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<v Speaker 1>a child, do you think, Oh, and then you start

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<v Speaker 1>paying attention to it. Oh, that's that it's caught my interest.

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<v Speaker 1>What is that like? Especially as a young teenager. Now

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<v Speaker 1>it is so much more baked in, whether it's through algorithms,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, I have a little hack that I

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<v Speaker 1>try my best to stay off social media, but when

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<v Speaker 1>I'm on it, I kind of have some degree of

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<v Speaker 1>awareness of how algorithms work. So when I see something

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<v Speaker 1>that I consider to be holy or like a quote

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<v Speaker 1>from a saint or from the Bible, I tap it.

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<v Speaker 1>I spend a little bit of extra time so that

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<v Speaker 1>I train the algorithm this is what I want to see,

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<v Speaker 1>and it does work, and it turns a nasty habit,

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<v Speaker 1>if you will. In terms of just I think that

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<v Speaker 1>social media can be a waste of time, but it

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<v Speaker 1>edifies it in some way.

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<v Speaker 2>It really goes back to what I was saying earlier

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<v Speaker 2>about becoming the people formed by the people we spend

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<v Speaker 2>our time with in the place where we are. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, that's so that algorithm is a

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<v Speaker 2>sort of an artificial reflection of real life too, in

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<v Speaker 2>that we do form ourselves and I think neurologically as well,

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<v Speaker 2>we form our brains, you know, form around what we practice.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think that's you know, that's important not only

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<v Speaker 2>on social media in fact, but in every day as well.

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<v Speaker 2>How do we look at people, what do we how

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<v Speaker 2>do we think about people and ourselves and our relationships,

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<v Speaker 2>and how do we operate in the world. Yeah, all

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<v Speaker 2>of that trains us constantly into a certain direction. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a C. S. Lewis said in one place, I

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<v Speaker 2>can't remember where, but he said that every encounter you

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<v Speaker 2>have with a human person, you're either contributing to them

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<v Speaker 2>becoming something so incredibly beautiful that if you saw it

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<v Speaker 2>now you'd be tempted to own worship, but or something

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<v Speaker 2>that's so awful that it's worse than the stuff of

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<v Speaker 2>your worst nightmares. That's an incredible responsibility. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>this is exactly the kind of thing that is that

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<v Speaker 2>that we are in fact doing to each other. All

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<v Speaker 2>the time. And that's why that's that's so important what

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<v Speaker 2>you're saying that training yourself to look upon the beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>Some Paul says it as well, doesn't he. Yeah, pay

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<v Speaker 2>your full focus, your attention on what's good and beautiful,

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<v Speaker 2>not ugly. In there.

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<v Speaker 1>There's one hundred dollars word for it, nepsis, just watchfulness.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that it's a I think asceticism in

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<v Speaker 1>general is a lost art. How do you draw the

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<v Speaker 1>line between anxiety and watchfulness? You know, anxious paranoia about

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<v Speaker 1>am I doing the right thing? Am I? Am I

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<v Speaker 1>treating Andrew with the proper respect right now? And and

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<v Speaker 1>just what is a sober guarding of the soul?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? Well, I think I mean sober implies the opposite

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<v Speaker 2>of anxiety in a way, and I think I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's that's where the prayerful aspect comes in. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's the operating in peace, you know, rather than anxiety.

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<v Speaker 2>So we know we're going to fail, We're going to

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<v Speaker 2>do what we can do, and we're still going to

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<v Speaker 2>fail because as fallen human beings, we will fail. But

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<v Speaker 2>we can get up and we can keep trying. And

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<v Speaker 2>so if we operate in prayer and put the attentiveness

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<v Speaker 2>through prayer as well. You know, the Jesus prayer, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>is something it works really well as a hospital chaplain.

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<v Speaker 2>I understand this. You see somebody, you move to somebody else,

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<v Speaker 2>but you have a bit of time in between. You

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<v Speaker 2>can do Jesus prayer while you're walking in the corridor

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever, and sometimes even while you're with someone. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's staying in the prayer will bring peace

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<v Speaker 2>and that is the opposite of anxiety. So yeah, it

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<v Speaker 2>is possible to get too tangled up in this sort

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<v Speaker 2>of in the cognitive way and thinking about I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's sort of overthinking. You know, am I doing the

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<v Speaker 2>right thing? How do I know it's the right thing?

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<v Speaker 2>How do I know exactly what impact what I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to say is going to have on this person? And

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<v Speaker 2>the answer is what I can't know for sure. I

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<v Speaker 2>can just pray, release it to the Lord and do

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<v Speaker 2>my best of it in the moment.

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<v Speaker 1>M We talked about the legal definition of pornography earlier,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think legalism rules the day in much of

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<v Speaker 1>our modern world, or we get even within Christianity where

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<v Speaker 1>you get caught up in the act of sin as

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<v Speaker 1>though was that a sin? Was it? Well, well, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>not quite. It's on the borderline, I'm okay. And when

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<v Speaker 1>you view sin in that way as a kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a breaking of the rules of breaking of the law

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<v Speaker 1>versus a deforming of the person, then even the gray

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<v Speaker 1>area you can view differently in terms of is this

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<v Speaker 1>building me up or breaking me down? Kind of in

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<v Speaker 1>the same way that you were talking about Lewis towards

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<v Speaker 1>somebody else.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean absolutely, absolutely no, I think that's right, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think sin is you know, it's if we think again,

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<v Speaker 2>if we go back to the edge of thinking about

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<v Speaker 2>the good rather than the bad and keeping our eyes

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<v Speaker 2>on what's beautiful, then if we think about repentance, we

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<v Speaker 2>know repentance is not just you know, a correction to

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<v Speaker 2>a particular thing in a particular way. It's a whole,

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<v Speaker 2>lifelong process. And so I think focusing on that rather

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<v Speaker 2>than on the sin is actually quite quite helpful because

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<v Speaker 2>it's then much more of a disposition of the person

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<v Speaker 2>rather than a specific act. And we can talk about

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<v Speaker 2>specific acts all the time. And you know, certainly we

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<v Speaker 2>always have mixed motives. I mean I always have mixed motives. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I can do something that from the outside might look

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<v Speaker 2>completely beautiful and good, but I know that there's probably

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<v Speaker 2>something else in there as well. You know, I also

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<v Speaker 2>want the person to respond to me positively. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>there are all kinds of motives in that, and if

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<v Speaker 2>I start getting tangled up in that, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>get nowhere at all. So I sort of put that

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<v Speaker 2>aside and say, is what I'm doing, you know, broadly

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<v Speaker 2>in line with the life of repentance, with moving towards

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<v Speaker 2>being Christ Like? Is it something I'm doing in union

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<v Speaker 2>with Christ? Or am I doing it off my own

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<v Speaker 2>bat for my own edification or my own glorification? I

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<v Speaker 2>think again, going back to doing things in prayer, putting

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<v Speaker 2>the self aside and moving forward in love for you know, God,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, but which I think is the same

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<v Speaker 2>thing in action in practice.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I kept thinking, and I'm pretty sure it's in

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<v Speaker 1>your book. But it's something that I think about all

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<v Speaker 1>the time. The paraphrase Saint Porphyrios when he talks about

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<v Speaker 1>let evil be turned towards Christ. I mean we can

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<v Speaker 1>lament the darkness, and it is something that we should lament.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, evil is not something that we just brush aside.

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<v Speaker 1>But the way that we conquer it is by poking

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<v Speaker 1>that pinhole and letting the light flood in. Yeah, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's a conscious act. I mean it becomes difficult because

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<v Speaker 1>you have to talk about the darkness. You have to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about evil in order to rightly orient yourself towards goodness.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, evil does not exist in isolation. It's always

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<v Speaker 1>the opposite of something good, right, I mean, how is

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<v Speaker 1>that true?

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<v Speaker 2>And the twisting of the twisting of something Yes, because

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<v Speaker 2>evil can't have its own its own existence because God

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<v Speaker 2>only creates good. So evil is always something essentially good

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<v Speaker 2>that's been twisted or broken in some way to make

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<v Speaker 2>it evil. I think it comes to my mind. It

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<v Speaker 2>comes to the question that I've often been asked as

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<v Speaker 2>a chaplain, whether it be in in a cute hospital

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<v Speaker 2>or in the mental health wards, which is you know

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<v Speaker 2>the old how how can there be a God if

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<v Speaker 2>all these horrible things happen? Why does God let you

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<v Speaker 2>know my baby die or me have cancer, or me

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<v Speaker 2>suffer these psychotic episodes? Or you know how how is

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<v Speaker 2>how can there be a good God if this sort

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<v Speaker 2>of thing happens? And you know, there areus lots of

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<v Speaker 2>theological answers to this, but I don't find them very

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<v Speaker 2>practical or useful in that sort of context, because I

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<v Speaker 2>think people are asking not not for theological answer, but

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<v Speaker 2>for an existential one. Really, it's you know, and and yes,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a horrible thing, and and it's unfair because

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<v Speaker 2>people suffer sometimes no apparently good reason, and sometimes suffer massively,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, disaster upon disaster upon one awful thing on

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<v Speaker 2>top of another. But what I always and they say,

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<v Speaker 2>how can you believe in God? And so what I

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<v Speaker 2>always say is well, to me, it makes sense that

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<v Speaker 2>if the world is without God, then obviously all this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff makes sense, you know, the disasters and the pain

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<v Speaker 2>and the suffering and the evils and the tortures and

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<v Speaker 2>everything else. But what you can't explain then is why

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<v Speaker 2>is it that even in these darkest places and these

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<v Speaker 2>most awful times, there are still these little glimmers of light?

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<v Speaker 2>Where did they come from? Why is it that you

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<v Speaker 2>can be in this place with people who've sometimes you know,

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<v Speaker 2>committed terrible crimes and suffered horrible things, and yet they

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<v Speaker 2>can still do altruistic acts just out of love for

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<v Speaker 2>each other. How is that possible? Where does that come from,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I think that again, it's it's looking looking

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<v Speaker 2>for the good and the beautiful, because it's everywhere. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I've been in some pretty horrible places, and I've always

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<v Speaker 2>found that there is good there. There's always there's always light.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like you know, the pasca, when the light appears

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<v Speaker 2>in the darkness.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the pins Well, that's it's it's it's a very

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<v Speaker 1>appropriate analogy because for those who aren't aware, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>pretend to believe that everybody who watches or listens to

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<v Speaker 1>this has ever been to a pasca service. But it's

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<v Speaker 1>very beautiful. I mean, right at midnight, one single candle

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<v Speaker 1>comes out and then within several minutes the entire church

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<v Speaker 1>is lit up. I mean it's in total darkness, and

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<v Speaker 1>from one candle everything is illuminated. And that's really I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's illustrative of a lot of different things, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>that pinhole. It starts with one small ray of light,

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<v Speaker 1>and then it's our personal responsibility to be the light

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<v Speaker 1>of the world. I mean, that's that's why it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>so critical for Christians to not compartmentalize. And I was

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<v Speaker 1>talking to somebody about this the other day we live

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<v Speaker 1>in a secular world, which has caused many Christians to

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<v Speaker 1>live almost schizophrenic lives where I'm a Christian here at

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<v Speaker 1>home in church, but then when I go to the workplace,

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<v Speaker 1>I kind of have to put on a different hat.

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<v Speaker 1>And you really can't do that. I mean, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't mean that you are, you know, Bible bashing

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<v Speaker 1>people all the time, but it's it's the way that

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<v Speaker 1>you live your life that that really becomes that that

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<v Speaker 1>light of the world, that that transforms the world. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't I don't know if that helps somebody who's well.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that really unfairly. The concept of the masks

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<v Speaker 2>that I use in the book, it's this idea of

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<v Speaker 2>having different hats and different roles I think is part

401
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<v Speaker 2>of is part of masks and I and you know,

402
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<v Speaker 2>obviously we have well we you know, we might have

403
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<v Speaker 2>a profession. We're called upon to be professional in our role,

404
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<v Speaker 2>which means behaving in a certain way, but it does

405
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<v Speaker 2>mean being a different person or a different kind of person.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're in a if you're in a job that

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<v Speaker 2>forces you to behave in a non Christian way, then

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<v Speaker 2>I suggests you get out of it because it's not

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<v Speaker 2>any good for anybody. So I think I think the

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<v Speaker 2>key is learning how to be the person we are

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<v Speaker 2>in the situation we're in, and that means not wearing

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<v Speaker 2>a mask, because we can't know each other or be

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<v Speaker 2>known if we if we wear a mask. I remember

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<v Speaker 2>I sort of I ham at this very hard, and

415
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<v Speaker 2>the children were very small, this point about telling lies,

416
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<v Speaker 2>because wearing a mask is basically telling lies. Rights about

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<v Speaker 2>telling lies about who we are for the benefit of

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<v Speaker 2>ourselves or the world or the relationship or whatever it is.

419
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.279
<v Speaker 2>And I always said said this to the children when

420
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:45.759
<v Speaker 2>they were very small, that if you tell them lie,

421
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.880
<v Speaker 2>then you the person you're really hurting is yourself because

422
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:55.119
<v Speaker 2>because I love you, but you won't know that if

423
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:58.319
<v Speaker 2>you've told me lies, you'll think I'm loving the lies

424
00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:02.400
<v Speaker 2>that you've told rather than the real you that's behind them.

425
00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:04.440
<v Speaker 2>If you tell me the truth, if you tell me

426
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:06.599
<v Speaker 2>the truth always, I will still always love you, and

427
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:10.319
<v Speaker 2>you'll know it's actually you and not the stories, because

428
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:14.160
<v Speaker 2>the stories won't be necessarily lovable, you know, in themselves,

429
00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:16.640
<v Speaker 2>but you will be as a person. And I think

430
00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:19.680
<v Speaker 2>that's that's the key with masks to me. Yeah, that's

431
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:22.519
<v Speaker 2>actually in order to in order to have that relationship

432
00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:25.160
<v Speaker 2>be real. That's the only way you can know that

433
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:26.960
<v Speaker 2>you're actually loved or.

434
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:30.319
<v Speaker 1>Loving by others or yourself.

435
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:31.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

436
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:34.039
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we don't just wear masks to fool others.

437
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:37.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, absolutely. Yeah.

438
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.400
<v Speaker 1>And you talked about in the context of confession in

439
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:44.440
<v Speaker 1>the book, I mean, what is the importance Once again,

440
00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:49.680
<v Speaker 1>I can't pretend that everybody practices not everybody's Orthodox or Catholic,

441
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:53.480
<v Speaker 1>or you know, not everybody practices confession. Why is it

442
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:56.759
<v Speaker 1>so important? Why is the act of confession and being

443
00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:59.480
<v Speaker 1>truly honest with yourself and others so important? I mean,

444
00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:01.680
<v Speaker 1>it sounds self evident when I say it out loud,

445
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:06.279
<v Speaker 1>but it's not because I've even gone into confession and

446
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:09.400
<v Speaker 1>withheld and felt like I'm not ready to say that

447
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:11.720
<v Speaker 1>in front of somebody else. Yeah.

448
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, yeah. And that's the thing. I think. It's because

449
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:20.240
<v Speaker 2>because delusion comes so easily to us, and so you know,

450
00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:23.119
<v Speaker 2>we would like to think it's just as good to

451
00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.480
<v Speaker 2>make my confession privately in front of Christ, you know,

452
00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:29.079
<v Speaker 2>at home, as it is to go and actually say

453
00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:33.319
<v Speaker 2>to the priest. But it isn't because actually I'm holding back.

454
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:35.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that I'm holding back. I may say words,

455
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:42.119
<v Speaker 2>but when you're faced with an actual physical presence right

456
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:46.920
<v Speaker 2>there that you can see and sense, it's different. It

457
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:51.720
<v Speaker 2>really is different. And and if you can then take

458
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:55.279
<v Speaker 2>that back, you know. And this is why another reason

459
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:58.279
<v Speaker 2>why I think icons are really helpful in prayer, because

460
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:00.960
<v Speaker 2>you can you can look, you know, Christ in the face,

461
00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:03.400
<v Speaker 2>which is one of the miracles, isn't it about the incarnation?

462
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Compared to the Old Testament, when you can't see the

463
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:08.920
<v Speaker 2>face of God and live, you can look Christ in

464
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.160
<v Speaker 2>the face, and that's very difficult. And if you've really

465
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:15.519
<v Speaker 2>got that sense of you know, if I've got the

466
00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:18.119
<v Speaker 2>sense of my own sin, then that's hard to do

467
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:23.319
<v Speaker 2>because I feel ashamed automatically and I want to look down.

468
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:25.839
<v Speaker 2>But I can raise my eyes and look up and

469
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.640
<v Speaker 2>know that I'm actually loved irrespective of the stuff that

470
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:32.680
<v Speaker 2>I've done, which is, you know, it's not very good.

471
00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:37.440
<v Speaker 2>So you can bring that back into your own prayer

472
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:39.960
<v Speaker 2>life as well. But I think there's something about having

473
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.480
<v Speaker 2>to actually be there next to a physical person present

474
00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:49.720
<v Speaker 2>and with sound and touch and smell and vision and

475
00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:52.359
<v Speaker 2>all of the senses and actually let this stuff out

476
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:56.599
<v Speaker 2>is hard, and that's that's why it's good, because it's

477
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.000
<v Speaker 2>so easy. You know. I want to think that I'm

478
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.559
<v Speaker 2>a nice person and a good and I help people

479
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:05.440
<v Speaker 2>and unfriendly and I do good stuff. But actually that's

480
00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:07.359
<v Speaker 2>only a bit of the story. I mean, I think

481
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:09.000
<v Speaker 2>I do all of those things some of the time,

482
00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:12.759
<v Speaker 2>but there's a lot more to it, and it's important

483
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:14.559
<v Speaker 2>to be aware of that reality. And that's the problem

484
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:19.000
<v Speaker 2>with the mask is that it's fake. And I don't

485
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:20.480
<v Speaker 2>want to be fake. I want to be real. And

486
00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:23.000
<v Speaker 2>the only way you know, I can ever I come

487
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:24.880
<v Speaker 2>into union with Christ is by being real.

488
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:29.200
<v Speaker 1>Amen. I mean, the name of this podcast is commitment

489
00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:32.400
<v Speaker 1>to reality. For just that reason, I was looking around

490
00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:35.119
<v Speaker 1>the world and I felt like we are living illusions

491
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.240
<v Speaker 1>left and right. I mean, and we're rubber stamping illusions

492
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:43.960
<v Speaker 1>left and right, and in order to kind of it's

493
00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:46.839
<v Speaker 1>almost like a gravitational pool that we need to enact

494
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:49.880
<v Speaker 1>on ourselves to stay grounded. I mean, I just I

495
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:52.920
<v Speaker 1>always imagine grabbing hold of something, because if you don't,

496
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:55.880
<v Speaker 1>you're going to float off into the ether if you

497
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:02.880
<v Speaker 1>don't make a conscious commitment to what is real reality. Uh. Now,

498
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:08.160
<v Speaker 1>icons are once again Uh, you know, I'm always very

499
00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:14.759
<v Speaker 1>careful to try and frame things from a place where

500
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:19.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, I don't want to just say icons are important.

501
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:22.920
<v Speaker 1>And if you don't think so, you're an idiot, Like

502
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:26.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, hey, get with the program. There's something wrong

503
00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:28.880
<v Speaker 1>with you if you don't see this, or because I

504
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.720
<v Speaker 1>think that they can be easy to do, why are

505
00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:35.319
<v Speaker 1>icons important? And really, if you could explain it to

506
00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:38.519
<v Speaker 1>somebody who struggles with it, because I know people personally

507
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:42.519
<v Speaker 1>who will not step foot in my church because of

508
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:47.279
<v Speaker 1>the icons. Yes, and they are they are practicing, earnest

509
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:51.640
<v Speaker 1>Christians who just grew up with a tradition. I'll use

510
00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:57.759
<v Speaker 1>that word that that either doesn't believe in icons or

511
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:01.880
<v Speaker 1>even more so, I mean you said poornography is demonic iconography.

512
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:05.279
<v Speaker 1>I don't think the distinction is wrong.

513
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:08.720
<v Speaker 2>No, absolutely, yeah. And it's this fear of it's a

514
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:12.880
<v Speaker 2>fear of idolatry, right, this is in essence and and

515
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:18.880
<v Speaker 2>idolatry is a thing well worth fearing. And I think

516
00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:21.480
<v Speaker 2>idolatry comes into a lot of what we've been talking

517
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:26.079
<v Speaker 2>about in terms of the sin, and it's that desire

518
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:32.279
<v Speaker 2>to to put our hope in humanity rather than in God.

519
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:35.559
<v Speaker 2>Or in something something physical, something that we can touch,

520
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:39.039
<v Speaker 2>and that is a temptation, and it is a real temptation.

521
00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:40.640
<v Speaker 2>And it's not something that you know, belongs in the

522
00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Old Testament times. That's still a real temptation and a

523
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:45.119
<v Speaker 2>real problem. So I think, I don't you know, I

524
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:47.880
<v Speaker 2>think it's understandable why people have this. I think the

525
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:53.640
<v Speaker 2>key is to understand the nature of iconography, and that,

526
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:56.200
<v Speaker 2>as Synton Damascus says, you know, we do not worship

527
00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:59.799
<v Speaker 2>the wood and the paint. If the image on the

528
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:02.440
<v Speaker 2>eye is so defaced that we can't see the saint,

529
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:04.319
<v Speaker 2>then we throw it away or we burn it in

530
00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:08.079
<v Speaker 2>the fire. It's not it's not worth anything. So I

531
00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:09.960
<v Speaker 2>think this is this is the key. The key point

532
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:12.880
<v Speaker 2>is that we're not we're not worshiping the icon. We're

533
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:16.039
<v Speaker 2>not using the icon for our own purposes. Is actually

534
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:20.079
<v Speaker 2>quite the other way around, you know. There's there's that

535
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:25.200
<v Speaker 2>concept of the of the reverse perspective of the icon.

536
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:28.880
<v Speaker 2>So the idea is that we're not looking at the

537
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:32.000
<v Speaker 2>icon and using the icon. Actually what we're doing is

538
00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:36.119
<v Speaker 2>being looked upon when we look into an icon. So

539
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:39.160
<v Speaker 2>it's about this connection with the spiritual world, with the

540
00:30:39.799 --> 00:30:44.160
<v Speaker 2>reality of the spiritual world, and the fact that it's

541
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:46.880
<v Speaker 2>a glorious thing that in the Church we don't just

542
00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:50.240
<v Speaker 2>have the physically alive people on earth now are standing

543
00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:53.440
<v Speaker 2>with us, but we also have all of these others

544
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:56.480
<v Speaker 2>who are still alive and still with us, and we

545
00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:57.279
<v Speaker 2>can see them.

546
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.839
<v Speaker 1>Witnesses when we are surrounded by such a great cloud

547
00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:03.000
<v Speaker 1>of witnesses.

548
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, and they're all there and we can see them,

549
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:08.079
<v Speaker 2>and that's really important, and that's part of the incarnation,

550
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:11.680
<v Speaker 2>the gift of the incarnation that we know that and

551
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:14.839
<v Speaker 2>we can see Christ's face because it's real, you know,

552
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.839
<v Speaker 2>Christ's face human. Christ's human face is real, So it

553
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:21.599
<v Speaker 2>is not it is not a blasphemy to paint it

554
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:24.240
<v Speaker 2>or look upon it, because it is real. It's not

555
00:31:24.279 --> 00:31:27.759
<v Speaker 2>an imaginary face. It's a real face. And that's I

556
00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:30.839
<v Speaker 2>think the essential difference and the fact and the fact

557
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:33.759
<v Speaker 2>is that we are connecting therefore with with Heaven. We're

558
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:36.599
<v Speaker 2>connected with Heaven in that way, and and that's why

559
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:38.960
<v Speaker 2>in the in the dimnetity, we can lay aside our

560
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:43.119
<v Speaker 2>earthly cares and we can just for a moment experience that,

561
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:48.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, being surrounded by the saints who've been perfected

562
00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:53.319
<v Speaker 2>in this life. And that's a wonderful, a wonderful witness.

563
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:56.039
<v Speaker 2>But it's more than a witness, it's a it's an actual,

564
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, fore taste of heaven.

565
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:02.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they knew, not whether they were on heaven or

566
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:06.519
<v Speaker 1>on earth. You know, when when we first joined the

567
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:09.519
<v Speaker 1>church my family, my sister said to the priest, well,

568
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:12.000
<v Speaker 1>what do you tell people when they say that you

569
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:16.119
<v Speaker 1>you pray to dead people or iconography? And he just saw,

570
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:23.960
<v Speaker 1>point blank, there are no dead Christians. That's right, go

571
00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:24.799
<v Speaker 1>back to your Bible.

572
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:28.720
<v Speaker 2>No. I had, so my my family, a lot of

573
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:33.119
<v Speaker 2>my family Salvation Army. So it's very sort of ultra Protestant.

574
00:32:33.799 --> 00:32:37.240
<v Speaker 2>And I remember when I was a teenager. I remember

575
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:40.920
<v Speaker 2>so my my my granddad used to visit so his

576
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:44.880
<v Speaker 2>his wife died. He lived, you know, another thirty years

577
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:47.079
<v Speaker 2>or so after she died, and he used to visit

578
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:51.599
<v Speaker 2>her grave quite often, but particularly on her birthday and

579
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:55.640
<v Speaker 2>on Christmas Eve. And and when I was old enough

580
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:58.119
<v Speaker 2>to drive, I drove him. I start, because he didn't.

581
00:32:58.119 --> 00:32:59.960
<v Speaker 2>He stopped driving when he was older, and I started

582
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:04.119
<v Speaker 2>driving him to the cemetery to go to his wife's grave,

583
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:09.680
<v Speaker 2>and he talked to her and I thought, well, that's

584
00:33:09.680 --> 00:33:16.240
<v Speaker 2>not very that's not very in accordance with theology. What

585
00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:19.880
<v Speaker 2>about the great gap that's between the dead and the lyric?

586
00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:23.119
<v Speaker 2>But if he talked to her because he loved her,

587
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:29.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, the bond of love is the key and

588
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:31.279
<v Speaker 2>and it will it will not be broken by death.

589
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:36.079
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm, well, you know it's it's sometimes the most

590
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:41.440
<v Speaker 1>common example is common because it's obvious. I mean, whenever

591
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:45.200
<v Speaker 1>somebody tries to make a passion defense of iconography, it's

592
00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:48.319
<v Speaker 1>is there anybody that you love? I mean, do you

593
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:50.759
<v Speaker 1>have a picture of your They don't even need to

594
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:52.759
<v Speaker 1>be dead. Do you have a picture of your wife

595
00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:56.359
<v Speaker 1>and children? I mean. The only thing that has changed

596
00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:01.559
<v Speaker 1>for me when it comes to a being oriented towards

597
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:05.640
<v Speaker 1>iconography now is that I'm much more likely to kiss

598
00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:09.599
<v Speaker 1>a picture of my children than I would have been before,

599
00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:12.760
<v Speaker 1>which I think is probably a change for the better.

600
00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:14.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's a beautiful thing to see it and

601
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:19.719
<v Speaker 1>to feel it, and God forbid, if anything were to

602
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:23.079
<v Speaker 1>ever happen to them, it would only heighten the importance

603
00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:27.039
<v Speaker 1>of that image because that they were real to me.

604
00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:30.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, they are real, and that becomes even more

605
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:35.119
<v Speaker 1>precious and as I've been Orthodox for a number of

606
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:38.199
<v Speaker 1>years now, but as somebody was visiting our church the

607
00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:40.079
<v Speaker 1>other day and they said that they're studying hard, and

608
00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:42.960
<v Speaker 1>I said, don't study too hard. You've got a lifetime.

609
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:46.360
<v Speaker 1>And that's still not enough, and that there's a constant

610
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:52.239
<v Speaker 1>reorientation that's taking place, and that continues to exist for

611
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:56.599
<v Speaker 1>me with iconography. I would say, intellectually I get it,

612
00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:00.800
<v Speaker 1>but practically speaking, I'm still trying to re orient. I mean,

613
00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:05.599
<v Speaker 1>you talk about the importance of vision. I'm trying to

614
00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:08.599
<v Speaker 1>reorient my vision so that I actually see what I'm

615
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:12.480
<v Speaker 1>supposed to see and in your words, so that I

616
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:16.280
<v Speaker 1>can be seen that that that you know.

617
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:17.159
<v Speaker 2>I was.

618
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:23.599
<v Speaker 1>On Mount Athos over the summer, and I was in

619
00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:28.840
<v Speaker 1>a kind of a cafeteria surrounded by all of these

620
00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:33.880
<v Speaker 1>icons of different saints, and and I don't know all

621
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:36.000
<v Speaker 1>of them. And I started to think about it, and

622
00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:40.559
<v Speaker 1>I think it's it's appropriate start walking around and then

623
00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:42.679
<v Speaker 1>I see what I know. And it reminds me of

624
00:35:42.679 --> 00:35:45.159
<v Speaker 1>being at a party. When you're at a party and

625
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:47.679
<v Speaker 1>you don't know anybody, and then all of a sudden,

626
00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:51.400
<v Speaker 1>you see that person that you know. I know that

627
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.159
<v Speaker 1>saint and I go over to it and I start

628
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:56.199
<v Speaker 1>looking at it and I feel this connection to it.

629
00:35:56.760 --> 00:35:59.679
<v Speaker 1>And I took that as well. That doesn't mean that

630
00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:02.000
<v Speaker 1>I only when you go to a party. Sometimes the

631
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:05.199
<v Speaker 1>best part is meeting somebody knew or learning something about

632
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:07.559
<v Speaker 1>somebody that you didn't know where you you might have

633
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:09.480
<v Speaker 1>thought you knew them, and then you get to know

634
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:11.519
<v Speaker 1>that and then you love them even more and they

635
00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:15.440
<v Speaker 1>become part of your family. Before we started, I said, Andrew,

636
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:18.440
<v Speaker 1>I think we have some friends in common. And I said, well,

637
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:20.599
<v Speaker 1>no matter what, we have friends in common because we're

638
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.280
<v Speaker 1>both Christians, and these Christians love each other before before

639
00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:28.480
<v Speaker 1>they meet. You know, it's just that opportunity to, you know,

640
00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:31.960
<v Speaker 1>get to know each other. And I think that what

641
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:37.719
<v Speaker 1>a what a blessing that iconography exists, because it's there

642
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:39.639
<v Speaker 1>is something different. And so I'll ask you. I mean,

643
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:41.840
<v Speaker 1>there was a lot of prelude to a question why

644
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:44.760
<v Speaker 1>can't Why isn't just thinking and praying to God enough?

645
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:46.719
<v Speaker 1>Why do you need iconography for that?

646
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Because we're physical beings as well as cognitive. Thinking is

647
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:58.480
<v Speaker 2>a suitable for cognitive, but when we're a physical being,

648
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:04.440
<v Speaker 2>we need physical as well. And I think you know,

649
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:08.119
<v Speaker 2>it's a very gnostic concept that the spiritual is more real.

650
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:11.360
<v Speaker 2>Actually the physical is real too, and we're a combination

651
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:13.280
<v Speaker 2>of the two. We're a blend. We're not you know,

652
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:18.840
<v Speaker 2>we're not a spirit trapped in a physical body. That's

653
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:22.199
<v Speaker 2>that's definitely not a consume way of thinking. So our

654
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:25.599
<v Speaker 2>physical bodies are part of who we are and they

655
00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:29.519
<v Speaker 2>need to be taken seriously. And so that aspect of

656
00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:32.920
<v Speaker 2>being able to see and to hear, and to smell

657
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:36.559
<v Speaker 2>and to touch and to taste are all part of

658
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:41.039
<v Speaker 2>worship because that's who we are and that's really essential.

659
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:45.519
<v Speaker 2>I think. So yes, they're thinking, yes there's praying, and

660
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:47.519
<v Speaker 2>yes there's all these other things as well.

661
00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:51.119
<v Speaker 1>And then and then that's where the really important and

662
00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:55.000
<v Speaker 1>necessary distinction comes in because I let this think, you know,

663
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:58.880
<v Speaker 1>why do we need any kind of of Christ to pray? Well,

664
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:03.000
<v Speaker 1>why do we need an icon of anybody else? Because

665
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:07.079
<v Speaker 1>you could say, okay, well, I'd still that's a tough

666
00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:09.719
<v Speaker 1>pill for me to swallow, but I'll accept your icon

667
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:11.719
<v Speaker 1>of Christ. But why everybody else?

668
00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:14.440
<v Speaker 2>Reason that you can't be a Christian on your own,

669
00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:16.519
<v Speaker 2>You need to go to church and you need to

670
00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:19.719
<v Speaker 2>associate with other Christians, and why would you not, Why

671
00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:23.000
<v Speaker 2>would you deliberately cut yourself off from those who are

672
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:27.039
<v Speaker 2>strongest and most mature in the faith. Mm hmm that

673
00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:29.000
<v Speaker 2>would be insane, right.

674
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:33.199
<v Speaker 1>And you use stronger language in the book. You said

675
00:38:33.239 --> 00:38:36.840
<v Speaker 1>it's it's like cutting yourself off from the vine, which

676
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:38.639
<v Speaker 1>is a terrifying image.

677
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yes.

678
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:47.159
<v Speaker 1>So for you know, yeah, I'm constantly trying to build

679
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:49.840
<v Speaker 1>the bridge because otherwise it's just an echo chamber. You

680
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:52.079
<v Speaker 1>like icons. I like icons. Let's talk about how much

681
00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:56.719
<v Speaker 1>we like chicons. But you know, more than anything I've

682
00:38:56.800 --> 00:39:01.480
<v Speaker 1>began in my later years. You know, I grew up evangelical,

683
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:04.440
<v Speaker 1>took a long walk in the wilderness, and now I'm

684
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:07.880
<v Speaker 1>a firmly devoted Orthodox Christian. I mean, it's it's all

685
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:10.280
<v Speaker 1>I care about. It's all I want. You know, I

686
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.119
<v Speaker 1>didn't really understand evangelism growing up. Now it's like I

687
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:15.840
<v Speaker 1>get it. I want to grab Andrew come to church

688
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:18.800
<v Speaker 1>with me because I believe in the reorientation that takes

689
00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:23.079
<v Speaker 1>place there. I've seen it in my own life and

690
00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:26.840
<v Speaker 1>in like manner, all right, I believe in iconography. I

691
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:30.239
<v Speaker 1>want other people to see what I see or what

692
00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:34.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm learning to see because you know, I forgive the

693
00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:36.920
<v Speaker 1>tired cliche. And if anybody's listened to this, they've heard

694
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:38.719
<v Speaker 1>it or listened to this podcast more than once. They've

695
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:41.159
<v Speaker 1>heard it already. I always think about it the bunny

696
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:45.639
<v Speaker 1>ears on the old TVs where you know, I'm trying

697
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:48.920
<v Speaker 1>to get the right picture, or you know, right before

698
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:51.199
<v Speaker 1>we hopped on, I got something in my eye and

699
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:53.519
<v Speaker 1>I just kept blinking, and I was like, maybe this

700
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:57.119
<v Speaker 1>is God saying, really focus on vision and the importance

701
00:39:57.159 --> 00:40:00.320
<v Speaker 1>of seeing rightly because I can't see right now, and

702
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:03.159
<v Speaker 1>you know, going to the eye doctor and having them

703
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:06.239
<v Speaker 1>flip the things, and then all of a sudden, you go, oh, whoa.

704
00:40:06.679 --> 00:40:10.159
<v Speaker 1>I thought I could see, but now I can see

705
00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:13.199
<v Speaker 1>what was I missing before? And so it's that inclusion,

706
00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:16.079
<v Speaker 1>that reorientation, that like, hey, I want to invite you

707
00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:19.400
<v Speaker 1>into this world where you can see even deeper and

708
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:25.239
<v Speaker 1>what's what okay? So once again I went different. I understand, Uh,

709
00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:29.679
<v Speaker 1>an icon of Christ? Why do the other ones matter? Well,

710
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:31.960
<v Speaker 1>the reason I made the distinction is you said, that's

711
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:37.480
<v Speaker 1>how we worship. And it's a necessary distinction because someone

712
00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:41.320
<v Speaker 1>will say, well, you're worshiping that icon and we use

713
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:45.800
<v Speaker 1>the V word, the veneration. What is veneration and why

714
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:51.480
<v Speaker 1>is veneration important and not just of icons? Well, okay,

715
00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:54.920
<v Speaker 1>that's the problem absolutely. I think you'll go there, so

716
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:55.320
<v Speaker 1>we'll see.

717
00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:58.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean, veneration is respect and blood, I think combined.

718
00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:06.760
<v Speaker 2>So you know, the appropriate it's just about being being appropriate.

719
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:11.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, if I see someone and when I see

720
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:14.559
<v Speaker 2>one of these great saints, I see somebody who I

721
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:20.079
<v Speaker 2>love and I admire and I massively respect, and so

722
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:23.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's a It's a culturally foreign thing, isn't it,

723
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:26.280
<v Speaker 2>Because you know, there are there are many cultures throughout

724
00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:31.400
<v Speaker 2>history where you would simply automatically approach the person, you know,

725
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:34.679
<v Speaker 2>bow or neil or kiss the hand or whatever it is.

726
00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:37.239
<v Speaker 2>And those are the kinds of things we've inherited as

727
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:41.360
<v Speaker 2>Orthodox Christians, which are quite foreign to modern Western culture.

728
00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:45.079
<v Speaker 2>I think. But I don't think that's a good thing.

729
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:50.519
<v Speaker 2>I think that I think those gestures of respect and

730
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:57.320
<v Speaker 2>love are actually really important to human beings because actually,

731
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:02.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm not as good as anyone else. I

732
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:05.559
<v Speaker 2>know lots of people who are better than me, and

733
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.039
<v Speaker 2>and so yes, as a legal fiction, it's really important

734
00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:10.440
<v Speaker 2>that we assume a level playing field and give everybody

735
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:14.800
<v Speaker 2>the same rights and responsibilities. That's really important for organizing

736
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:19.039
<v Speaker 2>a practically society. But it's not true, is it. We

737
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:22.159
<v Speaker 2>all know that's not true. We all know that some

738
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:26.239
<v Speaker 2>people are better than this. We can't pretend that's not

739
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:29.679
<v Speaker 2>the case. We can't we equally. We can't make lists

740
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:31.559
<v Speaker 2>and rankings and you know, sort of sort out where

741
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:34.800
<v Speaker 2>exactly everybody is because we don't have perfect knowledge. But

742
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:36.360
<v Speaker 2>I know that there are people who are better than me,

743
00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:38.199
<v Speaker 2>and I think it's appropriate to give them a respect.

744
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:43.079
<v Speaker 2>Mm hm. So I think I think this is a

745
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:45.559
<v Speaker 2>big part of veneration. But I think more than more

746
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:49.360
<v Speaker 2>than anything, it's the love, you know, because and it's

747
00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:52.880
<v Speaker 2>because it's a two way process. I think even that,

748
00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:55.880
<v Speaker 2>even the veneration, I think of that marvelous scene in

749
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:59.360
<v Speaker 2>the Life of Saint Mary of Egypt when she encounters

750
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:02.280
<v Speaker 2>fathers us Us and he wants to prostrate to her,

751
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:04.960
<v Speaker 2>and she wants to prostrate to him, and uh and

752
00:43:05.239 --> 00:43:07.960
<v Speaker 2>this sort of back and forth because he perceives her

753
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:12.079
<v Speaker 2>whole great holiness and she sees his his and that

754
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:14.159
<v Speaker 2>I just think that's absolutely beautiful. I love that part,

755
00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:19.679
<v Speaker 2>and I think that's that's the thing. It's just the

756
00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:22.679
<v Speaker 2>quality of the relationship, the depth of love and respect,

757
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:25.079
<v Speaker 2>and that's I think that's what veneration is.

758
00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:31.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so veneration. I think the opposite would be objectification.

759
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:34.559
<v Speaker 1>And that's kind of what you're getting at with the

760
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:39.039
<v Speaker 1>whole issue of pornography, and that it's a symptom of

761
00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:42.280
<v Speaker 1>a deeper disease, which is narcissism, which.

762
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, the problem is that you know, you can't object objective.

763
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:54.079
<v Speaker 2>Objectification and love are incompatible, totally incompatible, because love requires

764
00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:57.199
<v Speaker 2>you to learn to know the person, which is not

765
00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:01.199
<v Speaker 2>knowing about the person, and it's certainly imagining. You know,

766
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:05.599
<v Speaker 2>your desired reality of the person is actually knowing the

767
00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:08.159
<v Speaker 2>real person. And the only way you can love a

768
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:13.960
<v Speaker 2>person is to encounter them in their reality. And so

769
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:17.199
<v Speaker 2>it's it's a it's it's an attack on a person

770
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:22.559
<v Speaker 2>to objectify because you're denying them their true reality and

771
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:24.679
<v Speaker 2>that and that you know that happens on lots of

772
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:28.960
<v Speaker 2>levels and in lots of ways, but I think you know,

773
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:32.639
<v Speaker 2>pornography is the sort of exemplar of how awful that

774
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:36.239
<v Speaker 2>is when somebody looks on another human being and instead

775
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:38.760
<v Speaker 2>of seeing them in reality as the image of God,

776
00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:41.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, an iton of Christ. They see them as

777
00:44:41.519 --> 00:44:44.679
<v Speaker 2>a thing they can desire and use for their own gratification.

778
00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:48.599
<v Speaker 2>And it's hard to imagine anything, I think worse very

779
00:44:48.679 --> 00:44:49.480
<v Speaker 2>human being than that.

780
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:56.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, how is the desire to embrace an icon and

781
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:01.119
<v Speaker 1>pornography really based half of the same desire?

782
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Uh huh? Because so all desire I think I came

783
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:09.480
<v Speaker 2>to the conclusion when I thought about the question of

784
00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:12.960
<v Speaker 2>desire that actually all desire in the end is desire

785
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.159
<v Speaker 2>for union with God, because that's what desire is made for,

786
00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:21.199
<v Speaker 2>right and the and the ultimate, you know, the eschatological

787
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:23.519
<v Speaker 2>end for the human being is to be in perfect

788
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:26.559
<v Speaker 2>union with each other and with Christ, because that's all

789
00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:30.760
<v Speaker 2>the same, all one. So all of our desire for

790
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:34.320
<v Speaker 2>other humans is part of our desire for this greater union,

791
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:37.920
<v Speaker 2>and it's it's a desire to come out of ourselves

792
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:45.280
<v Speaker 2>and encounter a real other. And so even the most

793
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:48.360
<v Speaker 2>sort of debased and broken and twisted forms of desire

794
00:45:48.519 --> 00:45:51.599
<v Speaker 2>still you can see a little bit of this in them.

795
00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:54.199
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's what happens with the pornography. It's

796
00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:58.840
<v Speaker 2>it's a fearful and broken desire when we know we

797
00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:02.800
<v Speaker 2>still want the other person in some way, but we're

798
00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:06.159
<v Speaker 2>fearful of showing ourselves. We're fearful of learning about them.

799
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:09.880
<v Speaker 2>In our reality, we want the easy way out, we

800
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:15.079
<v Speaker 2>want the quick gratification, and it just stops, it stops

801
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:18.239
<v Speaker 2>anything deeper from being possible. And that's that's you know,

802
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:22.000
<v Speaker 2>that's the evil in it, isn't it. But it's also

803
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:25.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, if Christ said any anyone, any

804
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:29.199
<v Speaker 2>man who looks on a woman was lust, it's the

805
00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:30.920
<v Speaker 2>same as committing adultery.

806
00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:34.280
<v Speaker 1>Mm hm with his heart right, think about that. A

807
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:41.559
<v Speaker 1>lot years ago, I was working in the Dominican and yeah,

808
00:46:41.599 --> 00:46:45.599
<v Speaker 1>there was I was working with a family and you know,

809
00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:48.360
<v Speaker 1>we were at the beach and the husband we were

810
00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:49.639
<v Speaker 1>on the beach and he did kind of one of

811
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:53.920
<v Speaker 1>those elbows and like and I was like, hey, you're

812
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:57.639
<v Speaker 1>you're a happily married man. And he said, you can

813
00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:01.239
<v Speaker 1>look at the menu. I just can't order. And that

814
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:04.000
<v Speaker 1>gets back to the legality of it all. Like it's

815
00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:09.400
<v Speaker 1>funny and it's clever and and yeah, but yeah, it's like,

816
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:12.840
<v Speaker 1>well I didn't do anything, yeah, yeah, but.

817
00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:15.360
<v Speaker 2>And that's the whole thing we were saying about sin

818
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:19.000
<v Speaker 2>being a disposition of the person more than a specific act.

819
00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:22.119
<v Speaker 2>The act is just the outcome of the disposition. So

820
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:24.840
<v Speaker 2>you can't make that. It's a very fake distinction again

821
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:30.480
<v Speaker 2>to make. Yeah, so there's and and it's and it's

822
00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:32.559
<v Speaker 2>and I see why people get confused about it, because

823
00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:35.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, temptation itself isn't sin. Okay, they say, so

824
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:40.280
<v Speaker 2>that you know, having the temptation, but that's already one

825
00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:44.719
<v Speaker 2>step way beyond, one step beyond the temptation. You're definitely

826
00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:47.400
<v Speaker 2>actively doing something when you when you make the look

827
00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:50.239
<v Speaker 2>and you make the gesture and you make the comment. Right,

828
00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:53.199
<v Speaker 2>So it's a definitely step further. So, And I think

829
00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:56.400
<v Speaker 2>the contrast between that response and the response that I

830
00:47:56.440 --> 00:47:59.119
<v Speaker 2>took about with syt Nonys in the example with synonyms

831
00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:03.000
<v Speaker 2>in the book where he's a bishop in a synod

832
00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:07.199
<v Speaker 2>of bishops meeting outside when this beautiful woman goes by.

833
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:10.599
<v Speaker 2>I can't remember a horse or in a strong carriage

834
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:15.800
<v Speaker 2>or something, and she's a sort of she's quite scantily dressed,

835
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:19.280
<v Speaker 2>but you know, in a very beautiful, beaut beautified up way,

836
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:22.679
<v Speaker 2>and all of the bishops avoid their eyes apart from

837
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:25.559
<v Speaker 2>synon Us, who watches her go by and into the distance.

838
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:28.599
<v Speaker 2>And then when one of them says, why, you know,

839
00:48:28.639 --> 00:48:30.840
<v Speaker 2>why are you doing this? She says, how could I

840
00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:33.119
<v Speaker 2>avert my eyes when such a glory of God's creation

841
00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:36.400
<v Speaker 2>goes by? And so I think, you know, this is

842
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:40.199
<v Speaker 2>the difference. So it's not, it's not. The problem is

843
00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:43.239
<v Speaker 2>in us and the way we look. Actually, and so

844
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:46.800
<v Speaker 2>if we can actually genuinely look upon any other person

845
00:48:47.320 --> 00:48:50.400
<v Speaker 2>as a glory of God's creation and a beautiful image

846
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:53.519
<v Speaker 2>of God, then that's good. That's fine, We can do that,

847
00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:57.159
<v Speaker 2>But it's it's when the temptation is not to do that,

848
00:48:57.159 --> 00:48:59.559
<v Speaker 2>that's when we have to avert our eyes. And I

849
00:48:59.559 --> 00:49:03.400
<v Speaker 2>think that's a really important distinction to make. It's not

850
00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:07.480
<v Speaker 2>about how the person is portraying themselves so much. I mean,

851
00:49:07.480 --> 00:49:09.519
<v Speaker 2>obviously that is an issue, but it's much more the

852
00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:12.119
<v Speaker 2>issue that it's about us and how we're looking and

853
00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:15.599
<v Speaker 2>what we're doing with that in our minds and our hearts.

854
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:18.960
<v Speaker 2>And if we can achieve the level of purity where

855
00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:22.119
<v Speaker 2>we can look upon any other human person as the

856
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:25.239
<v Speaker 2>glory of God, then we might be ready to start

857
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:27.039
<v Speaker 2>doing something good in the world.

858
00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:32.400
<v Speaker 1>Well, there's something quite scandalous in your book and I

859
00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:35.719
<v Speaker 1>remember reading it and doing a double take and thinking,

860
00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:38.480
<v Speaker 1>all right, I'm going to read that again. And I

861
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:41.119
<v Speaker 1>remember communicating it to people because I read this in

862
00:49:41.159 --> 00:49:44.159
<v Speaker 1>that book, and they go, you might want to go

863
00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:46.400
<v Speaker 1>back and read that again, and maybe you will tell

864
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:50.039
<v Speaker 1>me that's not what I meant, but I'm pretty sure

865
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:54.039
<v Speaker 1>that I've read it carefully. You say that you can

866
00:49:54.199 --> 00:50:01.440
<v Speaker 1>even venerate pornography. Yeah, I'll find that because that's scandalous.

867
00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:04.719
<v Speaker 1>But rightly I mean, I'm not talking about the improper

868
00:50:04.800 --> 00:50:09.159
<v Speaker 1>veneration or the execrification, but rightly venerate pornography. Explain that

869
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:10.719
<v Speaker 1>because that is scandalous.

870
00:50:11.079 --> 00:50:15.280
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, because there's a human person there. So if

871
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:19.239
<v Speaker 2>we look upon that human person with purity of heart

872
00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:22.119
<v Speaker 2>and see the image of God, of course we can,

873
00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:24.679
<v Speaker 2>because every human person is the image of God and

874
00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:28.440
<v Speaker 2>therefore deserves veneration. And it doesn't matter, you know, if

875
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:31.840
<v Speaker 2>we have the eyes to see, we can always venerate.

876
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:33.920
<v Speaker 2>And I think that, you know, as a chaplain, I

877
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:36.239
<v Speaker 2>think that's that's my job actually, is to go around

878
00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:41.480
<v Speaker 2>venerating people whatever situation they find themselves in, and however

879
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:44.280
<v Speaker 2>farther far they are from where they would like to be,

880
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:47.199
<v Speaker 2>or where anybody else would like them to be. Actually,

881
00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:49.119
<v Speaker 2>every one of us is a human person, and every

882
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:51.559
<v Speaker 2>one of us can therefore be venerated because we do

883
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:55.159
<v Speaker 2>always to some degree show forth the glory of God

884
00:50:56.360 --> 00:50:59.079
<v Speaker 2>being otherwise we wouldn't be here, we couldn't live.

885
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:04.760
<v Speaker 1>It's that whole thing where you know, Okay, if you have,

886
00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:09.239
<v Speaker 1>if you have a hard time with the paint and

887
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:16.480
<v Speaker 1>the wood perspective on iconography, okay, yeah, you can't win

888
00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:18.559
<v Speaker 1>every battle, I think it would be good for you.

889
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:21.199
<v Speaker 1>But at the end of the day, and you mentioned

890
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:24.480
<v Speaker 1>this several times, and I think it's worth drilling into

891
00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:30.599
<v Speaker 1>what does the incarnation have to do with iconography? And furthermore,

892
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:34.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we are all icons what what is what

893
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:37.679
<v Speaker 1>is the incarnation? What does the incarnation change there?

894
00:51:39.119 --> 00:51:41.360
<v Speaker 2>Because well, as I said earlier, you know, in the

895
00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:43.559
<v Speaker 2>Old Testament you cannot look upon the face of God

896
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:47.079
<v Speaker 2>and live. But actually Christ Christ bore the face of

897
00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:51.440
<v Speaker 2>God in a human face, and so we can in

898
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:56.880
<v Speaker 2>that sense now. And and because that is a physical

899
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:01.000
<v Speaker 2>human face, it can be portrayed in an image without

900
00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:05.519
<v Speaker 2>any issue. And because of that we can use our vision,

901
00:52:05.639 --> 00:52:09.480
<v Speaker 2>our physical vision to become spiritual vision and that's what

902
00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:12.039
<v Speaker 2>this that's what this takes. So you know, our physical

903
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:16.920
<v Speaker 2>vision alone we can't venerate. But our physical vision joined

904
00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:19.639
<v Speaker 2>to our spiritual version vision is exactly what we do

905
00:52:19.639 --> 00:52:23.320
<v Speaker 2>to venerate. And we can venerate every other human person

906
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:27.199
<v Speaker 2>because every other human person is also an image of

907
00:52:27.239 --> 00:52:30.159
<v Speaker 2>God in that sense. In fact, even broader than that,

908
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:33.519
<v Speaker 2>all of creation, all of creation reflects God's glory and

909
00:52:33.559 --> 00:52:38.480
<v Speaker 2>God's presence, So we can venerate everything in creation. It

910
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:41.719
<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean we're worshiping it as God. It means we're

911
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:44.719
<v Speaker 2>seeing God through it, because God's presence is in it,

912
00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:48.199
<v Speaker 2>in his creation. Every part of God's creation bears his mark.

913
00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:50.760
<v Speaker 2>We cannot look at it if we have true vision,

914
00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:54.840
<v Speaker 2>we cannot look at it and not see God's And

915
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:57.440
<v Speaker 2>that's again we'll only mean by surrounding ourselves with the beauty,

916
00:52:58.000 --> 00:52:59.800
<v Speaker 2>because we learn to see the beauty.

917
00:53:01.880 --> 00:53:04.079
<v Speaker 1>And you talked about spiritual vision. I mean, that's another

918
00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:06.599
<v Speaker 1>one hundred dollars word that maybe shouldn't be help. We're

919
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:09.639
<v Speaker 1>just not as well acquainted with it, especially in our

920
00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:12.679
<v Speaker 1>modern world. But what what is noose I mean? And

921
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:15.320
<v Speaker 1>why is that really that the hinge of your entire

922
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:21.039
<v Speaker 1>thesis in the book, I mean is developing the news.

923
00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:24.679
<v Speaker 2>Right, because so it's it's it's a marvelous thing. This

924
00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:32.679
<v Speaker 2>translation is a really dodgy activity. But and it's not

925
00:53:32.719 --> 00:53:34.519
<v Speaker 2>to say even that it's just you know, it's not

926
00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:36.960
<v Speaker 2>even if we stick to Greek, it won't work because

927
00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:39.960
<v Speaker 2>of course, the difference between the culture means that what

928
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:43.400
<v Speaker 2>was understood but in ancient Greek isn't understood necessarily in

929
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:46.079
<v Speaker 2>modern Greek. And I'm telling this discussion just the other

930
00:53:46.199 --> 00:53:50.159
<v Speaker 2>day actually about about these some of these concepts, because

931
00:53:50.199 --> 00:53:52.400
<v Speaker 2>the you know, modern modern Greece is part of the

932
00:53:52.440 --> 00:53:55.519
<v Speaker 2>modern world and has modern concepts, and so the same

933
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:58.599
<v Speaker 2>words can be used in a different way. But I

934
00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:01.320
<v Speaker 2>think the concepts are really important. And I think the

935
00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:03.760
<v Speaker 2>key thing with the news is that it's it's about

936
00:54:03.800 --> 00:54:07.719
<v Speaker 2>it's the point at which we connect with God. So

937
00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:11.719
<v Speaker 2>it's our it's the source of our spiritual vision. And

938
00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:15.360
<v Speaker 2>you could say in that sense because obviously on our own,

939
00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:19.239
<v Speaker 2>if they're I mean, on our own is an imaginary thing, right,

940
00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:22.280
<v Speaker 2>We don't exist without God. God is there, whether we

941
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.559
<v Speaker 2>like to think so or not, and that and if

942
00:54:25.639 --> 00:54:27.519
<v Speaker 2>if there was, if God wasn't there, we wouldn't be

943
00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:31.559
<v Speaker 2>so that's you know, it's it's entirely we're entirely dependent.

944
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:35.599
<v Speaker 2>And so the noose really is how we connect bring

945
00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:39.360
<v Speaker 2>some of that into our awareness. We can connect and

946
00:54:39.400 --> 00:54:43.440
<v Speaker 2>we can receive, we can receive that presence of God

947
00:54:43.480 --> 00:54:45.800
<v Speaker 2>in a in a in a more aware way, if

948
00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:48.920
<v Speaker 2>you like, in our spiritual and then we can convert

949
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:52.480
<v Speaker 2>our physical vision and our physical desires into spiritual vision

950
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:56.280
<v Speaker 2>and spiritual desire. And I think I think it's again

951
00:54:56.320 --> 00:54:59.079
<v Speaker 2>going back to this union of of of of of

952
00:54:59.159 --> 00:55:03.159
<v Speaker 2>the spirit and the and the body in humanity, which

953
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:05.280
<v Speaker 2>is an unusual and unique thing.

954
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:08.119
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmmm. Well, and two things came to mind when

955
00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:09.960
<v Speaker 1>you were talking. I mean there are two eye words.

956
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:14.840
<v Speaker 1>One that the origin of the word idiot, which I

957
00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:17.599
<v Speaker 1>thought was beautiful.

958
00:55:18.320 --> 00:55:22.320
<v Speaker 2>Can you yes, Well, I mean idiotis is the individual.

959
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:25.480
<v Speaker 2>So an idiot is one who's cut off, completely cut off,

960
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:28.480
<v Speaker 2>and the the opposite of that is being connected and

961
00:55:28.519 --> 00:55:30.039
<v Speaker 2>in relationship.

962
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:34.880
<v Speaker 1>And an individual I mean individualism rules the day. So

963
00:55:35.239 --> 00:55:37.519
<v Speaker 1>when I read that, I thought, wow, I mean we

964
00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:44.320
<v Speaker 1>idolize individuality, we idolize idiocy in a sense, here's just going.

965
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. And of course actually we're

966
00:55:49.400 --> 00:55:54.360
<v Speaker 2>not individuals. We're persons primarily. I mean, we can be individuals,

967
00:55:54.440 --> 00:55:57.920
<v Speaker 2>but it's not a desirable state because the person is

968
00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:00.719
<v Speaker 2>the one who can see face to face. Individual is

969
00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:03.159
<v Speaker 2>just a thing, you know, on the board that can

970
00:56:03.159 --> 00:56:05.639
<v Speaker 2>be moved around, or a piece that can be assembled

971
00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:09.679
<v Speaker 2>together with other pieces. But actually we're much more than that.

972
00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:13.159
<v Speaker 2>We're persons, and that face element of the person, the

973
00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:15.559
<v Speaker 2>persona or the pros upon in Greek is that is

974
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:20.159
<v Speaker 2>the key that we can encounter face to face. And

975
00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:22.199
<v Speaker 2>that is why the masks are such a problem, because

976
00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:24.760
<v Speaker 2>they get in the way. They prevent us from seeing

977
00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:25.960
<v Speaker 2>each other's true faces.

978
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:28.480
<v Speaker 1>The mass whose elaborate on that way, I mean the

979
00:56:28.519 --> 00:56:31.599
<v Speaker 1>difference between individual and person, because I think a lot

980
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:33.480
<v Speaker 1>of people would see that as synonymous.

981
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:36.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean the difference is simply that the

982
00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:39.440
<v Speaker 2>individual focuses on the difference and the person focuses on

983
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:42.880
<v Speaker 2>the connection. So what is our primary thing? Is our

984
00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:45.840
<v Speaker 2>primary thing to cut ourselves off from all of humanity

985
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:50.079
<v Speaker 2>and God and make somehow our own state a world

986
00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:52.480
<v Speaker 2>of its own? Or is our primary purpose to bring

987
00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:56.719
<v Speaker 2>ourselves into union with all of humanity and Christ in

988
00:56:56.760 --> 00:56:59.119
<v Speaker 2>a union of perfect love? I mean that's what we're told.

989
00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:01.000
<v Speaker 2>It's the end of our lives.

990
00:57:02.199 --> 00:57:05.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like, like you said earlier, I mean, no one

991
00:57:05.079 --> 00:57:07.719
<v Speaker 1>has saved in isolation. We are saved in union and

992
00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:09.880
<v Speaker 1>communion with each other and with God.

993
00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:12.320
<v Speaker 2>And that is, in fact, our our ultimate destiny is

994
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.920
<v Speaker 2>to be an ever more perfect union. So why would

995
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:19.679
<v Speaker 2>we want to focus on cutting ourselves off and bringing

996
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:22.559
<v Speaker 2>something of our own when actually everything we have is

997
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:24.920
<v Speaker 2>already shared, and everything we have is already a gift

998
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:25.920
<v Speaker 2>from outside.

999
00:57:26.039 --> 00:57:29.880
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's probably why we find ourselves in such

1000
00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:33.400
<v Speaker 1>a disordered state, I mean, in our modern world. So

1001
00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:36.760
<v Speaker 1>that was one I word, the individual slash idiot. The

1002
00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:38.159
<v Speaker 1>other one that I kept thinking of when you were

1003
00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:41.840
<v Speaker 1>talking about is imagination. And we think I would never

1004
00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:44.159
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you just think of the Willy Walker song.

1005
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:47.719
<v Speaker 1>Pure imagination. It's a good thing, right, And you said

1006
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:50.599
<v Speaker 1>that more often than not, if not always, The Church

1007
00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:54.000
<v Speaker 1>fathers speak of imagination as a negative thing, whereas in

1008
00:57:54.039 --> 00:57:57.960
<v Speaker 1>our modern world we think of imagination as a positive thing. Yeah,

1009
00:57:58.000 --> 00:57:58.559
<v Speaker 1>who's right.

1010
00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:05.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the thing is, it's partly because of the

1011
00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:07.760
<v Speaker 2>definition of the word, but I think because we all

1012
00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:10.119
<v Speaker 2>know that imagination has two aspects to it, right, you've got,

1013
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:12.599
<v Speaker 2>you've got the kind of imagination that takes you out

1014
00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:18.159
<v Speaker 2>of reality, and it can be really it leads. I mean,

1015
00:58:18.360 --> 00:58:21.400
<v Speaker 2>where's where's the distinction between imagination in that sense and delusion?

1016
00:58:21.719 --> 00:58:24.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, in the end, it's it's creating a sort

1017
00:58:24.840 --> 00:58:28.920
<v Speaker 2>of a parallel reality which is not God's reality but mine,

1018
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:31.920
<v Speaker 2>and that's a bad thing. But on the other hand,

1019
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:35.639
<v Speaker 2>creativity and being co creators with God, that's a positive.

1020
00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:38.559
<v Speaker 2>And we often use imagination to indicate something like that.

1021
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:41.440
<v Speaker 2>So I think that's the key is what are we

1022
00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:43.480
<v Speaker 2>doing and why are we doing it? And if it's

1023
00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:46.039
<v Speaker 2>because because we want to be individuals and therefore we

1024
00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:48.320
<v Speaker 2>want to be imaginative in a new way and create

1025
00:58:48.360 --> 00:58:51.639
<v Speaker 2>something ourselves out of ourselves, then that maybe not so great.

1026
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:54.480
<v Speaker 2>But if we're if we're imaginative in the sense that

1027
00:58:54.519 --> 00:58:57.800
<v Speaker 2>we're being very creative with with with what God has

1028
00:58:57.840 --> 00:59:01.440
<v Speaker 2>given us for the purpose any of these purposes we've

1029
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:03.599
<v Speaker 2>been talking about, then that, you know, that's that's a

1030
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:06.280
<v Speaker 2>good use of imagination. So I think I think it

1031
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:08.280
<v Speaker 2>really very much depends on the context and what we

1032
00:59:08.360 --> 00:59:10.360
<v Speaker 2>mean by it. But I think it's really important to

1033
00:59:10.360 --> 00:59:13.199
<v Speaker 2>be aware of that distinction. And not just assume that

1034
00:59:13.639 --> 00:59:16.320
<v Speaker 2>to be imaginative as a positive. It's interesting because I

1035
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:17.800
<v Speaker 2>think there's a there's a sort of a trend in

1036
00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:20.280
<v Speaker 2>healthcare as well, that people talk about spirituality as if

1037
00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:24.360
<v Speaker 2>it's always positive. Of course it's not always positive. They say,

1038
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:25.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, we want to get in touch with people,

1039
00:59:26.039 --> 00:59:28.239
<v Speaker 2>allow people to get in touch with their spiritual side

1040
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:31.000
<v Speaker 2>and develop their spirituality. So well, that would be that

1041
00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:33.960
<v Speaker 2>that you know, that's that's great, But not if it's

1042
00:59:34.119 --> 00:59:37.280
<v Speaker 2>about connect communicating with demons, then maybe it's not saying good.

1043
00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:39.239
<v Speaker 2>We don't want to talk about that in a positive way.

1044
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:42.079
<v Speaker 2>So I think there are lots of these things. I mean,

1045
00:59:42.119 --> 00:59:44.840
<v Speaker 2>pretty much everything in this world is split, isn't it.

1046
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:47.440
<v Speaker 2>So there's always a danger, and there's always a temptation.

1047
00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:50.159
<v Speaker 2>There's always a way of using something to separate yourself

1048
00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:53.760
<v Speaker 2>from God, and there's a way of using it to

1049
00:59:53.880 --> 00:59:55.199
<v Speaker 2>connect and join yourself.

1050
00:59:56.440 --> 01:00:00.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, it's it's it's the one hundred our words,

1051
01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:02.239
<v Speaker 1>the news and the neapsis. I mean, it's it's it's

1052
01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:04.719
<v Speaker 1>it's transforming or getting in touch with the vision of

1053
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:09.280
<v Speaker 1>your heart and and guarding it, I mean, being watchful

1054
01:00:09.320 --> 01:00:12.440
<v Speaker 1>being and like I said, not to the degree of paranoia,

1055
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:15.840
<v Speaker 1>but this constant I mean prayerfully considering everything that you're

1056
01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:19.880
<v Speaker 1>going through and your desires, because I mean you talk

1057
01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:25.199
<v Speaker 1>about desire and specifically in context of pornography, but it's

1058
01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:29.239
<v Speaker 1>not just enough to kill your desires, because that's a

1059
01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:30.280
<v Speaker 1>that's a road block.

1060
01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:33.199
<v Speaker 2>Not helpful, because it's that's basically you know, the the

1061
01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:37.559
<v Speaker 2>it's emptying, emptying the house of the demons, so that

1062
01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:40.119
<v Speaker 2>if you do that, then just more demons will move in, right,

1063
01:00:40.159 --> 01:00:45.079
<v Speaker 2>So that's yeah, that's the desire is desire is not

1064
01:00:45.119 --> 01:00:48.599
<v Speaker 2>about being cut off, is about being transformed into desires

1065
01:00:48.639 --> 01:00:52.639
<v Speaker 2>for the wholely for God, and it's for the good

1066
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:55.440
<v Speaker 2>of of you know, not only ourselves, but all the

1067
01:00:55.480 --> 01:00:56.719
<v Speaker 2>people we come into contact with.

1068
01:00:57.880 --> 01:01:01.559
<v Speaker 1>So it's ultimately all about transformation. I mean, it desire

1069
01:01:01.639 --> 01:01:03.599
<v Speaker 1>in and of itself, like like we've been talking about

1070
01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:05.920
<v Speaker 1>over and over. I mean, and I think it's it's

1071
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:10.280
<v Speaker 1>a positive thing that to reiterate because it's something that

1072
01:01:10.320 --> 01:01:12.719
<v Speaker 1>I only learned a number of years ago. I Mean,

1073
01:01:12.719 --> 01:01:15.880
<v Speaker 1>I'd never really thought about good and evil just being

1074
01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:19.599
<v Speaker 1>parallels of the same stick and that nothing that evil

1075
01:01:19.639 --> 01:01:22.800
<v Speaker 1>does not exist in isolation. That was news to me.

1076
01:01:23.239 --> 01:01:25.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean I had kind of just had never really

1077
01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:28.000
<v Speaker 1>drawn the distinction. And then when you really, I mean

1078
01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:31.199
<v Speaker 1>sometimes it takes a lot of work, but you can

1079
01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:35.400
<v Speaker 1>trace the line where you go, ah, that's how something

1080
01:01:35.480 --> 01:01:40.159
<v Speaker 1>good got perverted into X. And it's the same way.

1081
01:01:40.199 --> 01:01:42.000
<v Speaker 2>And I'm hopefully the hopeful side of this is that

1082
01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:45.159
<v Speaker 2>it means that in every evil in this life, there

1083
01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:50.840
<v Speaker 2>is always an element of good. Yes, you're never entirely separated,

1084
01:01:51.320 --> 01:01:55.880
<v Speaker 2>because you can't. You know, everything depends on God. So

1085
01:01:56.920 --> 01:01:59.679
<v Speaker 2>if you're still alive, there's still you know, where there's life.

1086
01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:02.039
<v Speaker 2>There's how they say, And I think that's really really

1087
01:02:02.039 --> 01:02:05.159
<v Speaker 2>true for this reason, because however perverse or evil, the

1088
01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:11.239
<v Speaker 2>situation is, there's still well, it still is has a reality.

1089
01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:14.039
<v Speaker 2>Then that means there's hope and there's there's good in

1090
01:02:14.079 --> 01:02:18.360
<v Speaker 2>there that can be grasped and built on developed and

1091
01:02:18.440 --> 01:02:19.599
<v Speaker 2>I think that's really important.

1092
01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:23.039
<v Speaker 1>So, you know, this is just this has just been

1093
01:02:23.039 --> 01:02:29.639
<v Speaker 1>a conversation about killing sacred cows. In our modern Western world.

1094
01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:33.320
<v Speaker 1>You talk about you know, one, you say we all

1095
01:02:33.360 --> 01:02:36.639
<v Speaker 1>have a pornography problem. Two you bring in the twelve

1096
01:02:36.719 --> 01:02:40.480
<v Speaker 1>step program and you basically say we're all powerless which

1097
01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:43.960
<v Speaker 1>is anathema in our modern world. Are are you kidding me?

1098
01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:47.960
<v Speaker 1>Maybe you are, Andrew, But I I I've life hacked

1099
01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:50.440
<v Speaker 1>myself to the degree to which I am in control.

1100
01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:52.960
<v Speaker 1>Why is that an illusion? I mean powerless? We are

1101
01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:57.920
<v Speaker 1>all powerless. And you know it's it's said we we

1102
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:04.119
<v Speaker 1>should not rely on ourselves. That that's that's completely contrary

1103
01:03:04.159 --> 01:03:06.480
<v Speaker 1>to everything that we're told in our modern society.

1104
01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:08.480
<v Speaker 2>I think it's pretty clear that none of us can

1105
01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:15.039
<v Speaker 2>create the world. I think I think we reached the

1106
01:03:15.079 --> 01:03:17.119
<v Speaker 2>realms of definite delusion if we're talking to somebody who

1107
01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:20.719
<v Speaker 2>thinks they can create the world. And so there's you know, yes,

1108
01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:23.039
<v Speaker 2>of course we can make a difference, and that's important,

1109
01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:26.239
<v Speaker 2>and that's important to affirm that. And you know, we

1110
01:03:26.280 --> 01:03:28.360
<v Speaker 2>do have the power to make things better or worse

1111
01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:32.280
<v Speaker 2>for ourselves and for other people. But we don't have

1112
01:03:32.320 --> 01:03:35.519
<v Speaker 2>the ultimate power. There's a very high degree of powerlessness.

1113
01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:38.079
<v Speaker 2>I can't control, you know, whether I'm going to get

1114
01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:42.320
<v Speaker 2>some terrible disease and die tomorrow. That's not within my power.

1115
01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:45.880
<v Speaker 2>It's just not. And so I can do things that

1116
01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:48.280
<v Speaker 2>make it more or less likely, of course, but I

1117
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:51.840
<v Speaker 2>can't ultimately control it. So in the sense, in that

1118
01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:54.440
<v Speaker 2>sense we're all we are all powerless, and and and

1119
01:03:54.519 --> 01:03:56.440
<v Speaker 2>the idea of you know, sort of self made man

1120
01:03:57.400 --> 01:04:01.000
<v Speaker 2>that it's impossible because there are so many things that

1121
01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:06.159
<v Speaker 2>the self made man is depending on his health, you know,

1122
01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:08.719
<v Speaker 2>living in a country where somebody doesn't just turn up

1123
01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:12.320
<v Speaker 2>and steal his house and his family and you know whatever.

1124
01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:14.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, there are so many things that he is

1125
01:04:14.360 --> 01:04:19.519
<v Speaker 2>not responsible for in his self health made life. Which

1126
01:04:19.559 --> 01:04:21.559
<v Speaker 2>is not to say that hard work is you know,

1127
01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:24.239
<v Speaker 2>is a waste of time and pointless at all. It's

1128
01:04:24.280 --> 01:04:26.519
<v Speaker 2>just to say that there are limits and to acknowledge

1129
01:04:26.519 --> 01:04:29.159
<v Speaker 2>those limits. I think there's there's so much black and

1130
01:04:29.159 --> 01:04:32.519
<v Speaker 2>white thinking. And that's that's the thing, because actually real

1131
01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:36.039
<v Speaker 2>life is full of degrees of things. You know, where

1132
01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:38.159
<v Speaker 2>is the where It's not that there are good people

1133
01:04:38.199 --> 01:04:41.000
<v Speaker 2>and bad people, and good is this thing over here,

1134
01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:44.159
<v Speaker 2>and evil is that thing over there. It's just never

1135
01:04:44.199 --> 01:04:46.559
<v Speaker 2>so simple. The evil always contains good, that good always

1136
01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:49.000
<v Speaker 2>contains evil, That good people do bad things, that bad

1137
01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:52.199
<v Speaker 2>people do good things. You know, it's all mixed. And

1138
01:04:52.559 --> 01:04:54.320
<v Speaker 2>that's why it's so difficult, because we'd like it to

1139
01:04:54.360 --> 01:04:55.519
<v Speaker 2>be really obvious and simple.

1140
01:04:58.400 --> 01:05:03.239
<v Speaker 1>Nuance is a lost art. I mean, so true freedom,

1141
01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:06.920
<v Speaker 1>what is it? Because I mean, if we're powerless, how

1142
01:05:06.960 --> 01:05:08.760
<v Speaker 1>can we experience true freedom?

1143
01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:12.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I mean again, it's one of those things, isn't it.

1144
01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:16.239
<v Speaker 2>Freedom is like everything else on the continuum, and when

1145
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:20.559
<v Speaker 2>we never entirely without it, but it's also never complete

1146
01:05:21.119 --> 01:05:24.400
<v Speaker 2>in this life, like everything in this life. So you know,

1147
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:27.039
<v Speaker 2>I think I sort of thought about this from reading

1148
01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:29.840
<v Speaker 2>the accounts of the people who had been in concentration

1149
01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:33.880
<v Speaker 2>camps and in the Soviet gulags. You know, their freedom

1150
01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:37.960
<v Speaker 2>was enormously limited, and yet they used it but a

1151
01:05:38.000 --> 01:05:41.400
<v Speaker 2>little tiny bit they had to enormous effect in some cases.

1152
01:05:41.760 --> 01:05:43.880
<v Speaker 2>And we've got saints, you know, who came out of

1153
01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:48.360
<v Speaker 2>these contexts because they used their human freedom in a

1154
01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:50.880
<v Speaker 2>case where pretty much everything that we would call freedom

1155
01:05:50.880 --> 01:05:55.000
<v Speaker 2>had been taken away to such effect that they became

1156
01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:57.360
<v Speaker 2>they were able to use it to become saints. And

1157
01:05:57.400 --> 01:06:00.320
<v Speaker 2>so I think, you know, freedom is a huge, huge,

1158
01:06:01.159 --> 01:06:03.280
<v Speaker 2>And the other thing, I guess, the other thing that's

1159
01:06:03.320 --> 01:06:06.039
<v Speaker 2>really important to me about that is that that love

1160
01:06:06.159 --> 01:06:11.039
<v Speaker 2>depends on freedom, because love cannot be forced and still

1161
01:06:11.079 --> 01:06:14.320
<v Speaker 2>be real, and so in that sense, I think freedom

1162
01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:17.760
<v Speaker 2>is really at the center we have to be we

1163
01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:21.599
<v Speaker 2>have to be able to give and receive love freely,

1164
01:06:22.960 --> 01:06:26.079
<v Speaker 2>and that that's what God gives us, that opportunity to

1165
01:06:26.159 --> 01:06:30.480
<v Speaker 2>do that. We're not forced ever into can't be forced

1166
01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:33.920
<v Speaker 2>into loving God, right or anyone else. So the freedom

1167
01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:36.840
<v Speaker 2>is really it is really important, and we all exercise

1168
01:06:36.920 --> 01:06:39.320
<v Speaker 2>it all the time, all the time. But sometimes I

1169
01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:43.239
<v Speaker 2>think we you know, maybe we use it. Obviously we

1170
01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:45.519
<v Speaker 2>use it in negative ways, but I think sometimes we

1171
01:06:45.639 --> 01:06:51.039
<v Speaker 2>underestimate actually how valuable it is. And perhaps that's perhaps

1172
01:06:51.079 --> 01:06:52.639
<v Speaker 2>that's why, you know, the people who had most of

1173
01:06:52.639 --> 01:06:55.920
<v Speaker 2>it taken away were able to value the part that remained.

1174
01:06:56.639 --> 01:06:58.840
<v Speaker 2>But yes, there's a sort of a I think it's

1175
01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:01.599
<v Speaker 2>also part of being a a physical and a spiritual

1176
01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:04.800
<v Speaker 2>being that enables us to maintain that inner freedom even

1177
01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:07.760
<v Speaker 2>when the outer freedom is mostly stripped away.

1178
01:07:09.440 --> 01:07:12.639
<v Speaker 1>And how is this important the context of pornography? I mean,

1179
01:07:13.159 --> 01:07:17.320
<v Speaker 1>you're kind of tagline. I guess if I would attribute

1180
01:07:17.360 --> 01:07:20.000
<v Speaker 1>it to is finding the freedom to live And this

1181
01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:22.840
<v Speaker 1>is all based in the context of free I guess

1182
01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:25.400
<v Speaker 1>to some degree freedom from pornography. But pornography is just

1183
01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:27.639
<v Speaker 1>the symptom of the greater disease, right.

1184
01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:32.360
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, Yeah, And there's so many things that limit our freedom,

1185
01:07:32.519 --> 01:07:35.559
<v Speaker 2>and so many of them are I mean, I'm not

1186
01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:37.760
<v Speaker 2>going to say self imposed, but so many of them,

1187
01:07:38.760 --> 01:07:41.400
<v Speaker 2>things that we feel limit our freedom are actually not.

1188
01:07:42.679 --> 01:07:46.039
<v Speaker 2>You know, they're internal as much as external that we

1189
01:07:46.119 --> 01:07:49.719
<v Speaker 2>say in some cases, So I think, I mean, I

1190
01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:53.280
<v Speaker 2>think my own case, I was always a very anxious person,

1191
01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:56.760
<v Speaker 2>and the anxiety massively limited my freedom. But it was

1192
01:07:57.599 --> 01:08:01.199
<v Speaker 2>and it existed because of a you know, external factors

1193
01:08:01.480 --> 01:08:04.440
<v Speaker 2>in my life growing up. But I also had some

1194
01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:07.199
<v Speaker 2>freedom in how I dealt with that and what I

1195
01:08:07.239 --> 01:08:12.519
<v Speaker 2>did with it. And so I think there are lots

1196
01:08:12.519 --> 01:08:16.039
<v Speaker 2>of things like that, I think, which are sort of spiritual,

1197
01:08:16.159 --> 01:08:18.680
<v Speaker 2>if we like to say, spiritual limitations on our freedom

1198
01:08:18.840 --> 01:08:23.760
<v Speaker 2>rather than physical ones. And so I think this living

1199
01:08:23.800 --> 01:08:27.840
<v Speaker 2>the life of repentance actually helps to break through some

1200
01:08:27.920 --> 01:08:30.920
<v Speaker 2>of those things and allow us to experience its freedom

1201
01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:34.880
<v Speaker 2>and to use it. And I do think, I mean,

1202
01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:38.039
<v Speaker 2>I know that I underestimated my own freedom, and I

1203
01:08:38.079 --> 01:08:41.640
<v Speaker 2>suspect that's not a unique case, and that there's actually

1204
01:08:41.760 --> 01:08:44.439
<v Speaker 2>so much we can do for good if we're willing

1205
01:08:44.479 --> 01:08:45.479
<v Speaker 2>to grasp it.

1206
01:08:48.720 --> 01:08:53.159
<v Speaker 1>Well, you talk about repentance, I mean, why what is

1207
01:08:53.239 --> 01:08:58.479
<v Speaker 1>true repentance? And just to really hammer home that the

1208
01:08:58.479 --> 01:09:01.119
<v Speaker 1>point that we've already discovered. But I think it's worth

1209
01:09:01.159 --> 01:09:07.560
<v Speaker 1>it because you know, think about this a lot. Andrew that,

1210
01:09:08.319 --> 01:09:10.800
<v Speaker 1>and and I did a podcast with a guy named

1211
01:09:10.880 --> 01:09:15.720
<v Speaker 1>Justin Marler, who I love deeply, and I got a

1212
01:09:15.760 --> 01:09:19.079
<v Speaker 1>lot of pushback on it. This guy doesn't take sin seriously.

1213
01:09:20.199 --> 01:09:23.760
<v Speaker 1>Did you listen to our conversation? Did you read his book?

1214
01:09:23.840 --> 01:09:24.079
<v Speaker 2>Really?

1215
01:09:24.159 --> 01:09:26.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean, he is not saying that sin is not

1216
01:09:27.159 --> 01:09:29.079
<v Speaker 1>a problem. It's just not the problem that you think

1217
01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:34.279
<v Speaker 1>it is. That your focus is so heavy on the

1218
01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:36.640
<v Speaker 1>infractional element, and I think it has a lot to

1219
01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:40.800
<v Speaker 1>do with the maybe the Western conception of sin and

1220
01:09:40.840 --> 01:09:45.039
<v Speaker 1>the Western conception of even being saved. And so I

1221
01:09:45.279 --> 01:09:47.359
<v Speaker 1>don't know if that's something that you think about a lot,

1222
01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:49.880
<v Speaker 1>or if you have anything to offer in this this realm,

1223
01:09:49.920 --> 01:09:52.720
<v Speaker 1>but it's something that I really, really, I don't think

1224
01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:54.600
<v Speaker 1>that we can talk about enough because I think that

1225
01:09:55.319 --> 01:09:59.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, you're you're in the the realm of therapy.

1226
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:03.800
<v Speaker 1>Think there's a lot of hurt people that are hurt

1227
01:10:03.800 --> 01:10:07.319
<v Speaker 1>by a misconception of sin and that carrying it through

1228
01:10:07.600 --> 01:10:12.399
<v Speaker 1>they're unable to truly face or to live a life

1229
01:10:12.439 --> 01:10:15.960
<v Speaker 1>of repentance because they can't handle the concept of sin

1230
01:10:16.119 --> 01:10:18.560
<v Speaker 1>as it's been presented to them. Does that make any sense?

1231
01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:21.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, it definitely does. No. I mean you said,

1232
01:10:21.880 --> 01:10:24.119
<v Speaker 2>you've said you know what is repentance? I was going

1233
01:10:24.159 --> 01:10:25.600
<v Speaker 2>to say, well, when you when you find out, you

1234
01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:29.079
<v Speaker 2>can tell tell me, because I think it's one of

1235
01:10:29.119 --> 01:10:31.560
<v Speaker 2>those things that to grasp in all its fullness is

1236
01:10:32.119 --> 01:10:35.760
<v Speaker 2>the work of more than a lifetime. But yes, I

1237
01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:38.119
<v Speaker 2>think you're You're right. I mean, what we know, what

1238
01:10:38.119 --> 01:10:40.880
<v Speaker 2>we know it isn't is this very limited conception of

1239
01:10:40.920 --> 01:10:42.880
<v Speaker 2>a sin being a bad thing that we've done, and

1240
01:10:42.920 --> 01:10:46.640
<v Speaker 2>the repentance being somehow overcoming that bad thing or turning

1241
01:10:46.640 --> 01:10:48.720
<v Speaker 2>away from that bad thing. And I think that's a

1242
01:10:48.800 --> 01:10:52.439
<v Speaker 2>very limited sort of concept of what it looks like

1243
01:10:54.239 --> 01:10:57.279
<v Speaker 2>and repentance. You know, there's so much in the Father's

1244
01:10:57.279 --> 01:11:00.439
<v Speaker 2>about this. The repentance is is a lifelong process, and

1245
01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:03.239
<v Speaker 2>for me that the best image of it is the

1246
01:11:03.279 --> 01:11:06.920
<v Speaker 2>story of the prodigal son. You know that his repentance

1247
01:11:07.079 --> 01:11:09.399
<v Speaker 2>was finding himself in there with the pigs and the

1248
01:11:09.479 --> 01:11:12.600
<v Speaker 2>husks and thinking, even the servants of my Father's have

1249
01:11:12.640 --> 01:11:15.119
<v Speaker 2>something more than this. And then he said, lor why

1250
01:11:15.239 --> 01:11:18.640
<v Speaker 2>not let's just go back. And it slept turning back

1251
01:11:18.760 --> 01:11:21.119
<v Speaker 2>and then throwing himself on the mercy of the Father

1252
01:11:21.279 --> 01:11:24.239
<v Speaker 2>and saying, you know, I did, I made a mess

1253
01:11:24.239 --> 01:11:27.000
<v Speaker 2>of it basically, and the Father says, you're my son.

1254
01:11:29.920 --> 01:11:32.319
<v Speaker 2>And so I think the repentance is just that in

1255
01:11:32.359 --> 01:11:34.439
<v Speaker 2>a way, it's it's being able to let go of

1256
01:11:34.479 --> 01:11:37.560
<v Speaker 2>all this stuff and go back and go back to

1257
01:11:37.600 --> 01:11:41.399
<v Speaker 2>the Father. And it's nothing to do with you know,

1258
01:11:41.960 --> 01:11:45.600
<v Speaker 2>doing stuff and overcoming issues issues, and all that is

1259
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:47.159
<v Speaker 2>is that, you know, it may happen, it may be

1260
01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:49.079
<v Speaker 2>part of the process, but it's it's not the way.

1261
01:11:49.159 --> 01:11:51.000
<v Speaker 2>It's not the way we move. The way we move

1262
01:11:51.119 --> 01:11:53.920
<v Speaker 2>is to turn back to the Father and say your

1263
01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:56.840
<v Speaker 2>your will is what we need, Your love is what

1264
01:11:56.880 --> 01:11:59.359
<v Speaker 2>we need, and we need to live in that and

1265
01:11:59.399 --> 01:12:01.920
<v Speaker 2>the rest will just follow from that. Hmm.

1266
01:12:02.720 --> 01:12:06.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, once again turned towards the light. Yeah. I'm going

1267
01:12:06.319 --> 01:12:08.000
<v Speaker 1>to ask a question that it probably should have led with,

1268
01:12:09.199 --> 01:12:11.239
<v Speaker 1>why does the church care so much about sex?

1269
01:12:12.920 --> 01:12:18.479
<v Speaker 2>Oh, here's that one, Because it's about life, right. I

1270
01:12:18.560 --> 01:12:20.920
<v Speaker 2>think the obsession with sex actually doesn't so much come

1271
01:12:20.920 --> 01:12:24.119
<v Speaker 2>from the churches, with people constantly asking the questions of

1272
01:12:24.239 --> 01:12:27.800
<v Speaker 2>the church. Because I don't know about you, but I

1273
01:12:27.840 --> 01:12:30.159
<v Speaker 2>don't actually hear very much when I go to church.

1274
01:12:30.159 --> 01:12:32.439
<v Speaker 2>I don't very hear very much in my sex, and

1275
01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:38.039
<v Speaker 2>it's almost never in the sermons. So I don't think

1276
01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:40.159
<v Speaker 2>it's you know, I don't think the obsession is quite

1277
01:12:40.199 --> 01:12:43.840
<v Speaker 2>the churches, but maybe societies. But the Church does care

1278
01:12:43.880 --> 01:12:46.680
<v Speaker 2>about sex very deeply because it's at the heart of

1279
01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:52.680
<v Speaker 2>who we are as people, and because marriage particularly is

1280
01:12:52.720 --> 01:12:58.119
<v Speaker 2>at the heart of the image of heaven. And I

1281
01:12:58.119 --> 01:12:59.960
<v Speaker 2>think it's because, as I was saying earlier, you know,

1282
01:13:00.159 --> 01:13:04.199
<v Speaker 2>our vision of heaven is this true union of all

1283
01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:08.039
<v Speaker 2>in all all in Christ. And marriage is given to

1284
01:13:08.119 --> 01:13:12.319
<v Speaker 2>us as the sort of first earthly taste of this union,

1285
01:13:13.800 --> 01:13:16.399
<v Speaker 2>which is then fulfilled, you know, in the wedding banquet

1286
01:13:16.399 --> 01:13:21.439
<v Speaker 2>of the Lord. And part of the concept of marriage

1287
01:13:21.800 --> 01:13:25.439
<v Speaker 2>is precisely this joining together of the male and female,

1288
01:13:26.159 --> 01:13:28.880
<v Speaker 2>which were set you know, as Maximus, that confessor says,

1289
01:13:28.880 --> 01:13:32.520
<v Speaker 2>set we're one of the separations of creation. And so

1290
01:13:32.560 --> 01:13:37.359
<v Speaker 2>it's it's coming back together in a union of perfect love,

1291
01:13:37.439 --> 01:13:42.359
<v Speaker 2>where we can appreciate the other and the difference and

1292
01:13:42.479 --> 01:13:45.720
<v Speaker 2>come together in union and be one and yet still

1293
01:13:45.760 --> 01:13:50.039
<v Speaker 2>be twos as God is, you know, one and three,

1294
01:13:50.159 --> 01:13:53.359
<v Speaker 2>and Christ is perfectly divine and perfectly human, and it's

1295
01:13:53.399 --> 01:13:56.800
<v Speaker 2>all of the joinings together in which all of this works,

1296
01:13:57.600 --> 01:14:00.760
<v Speaker 2>the joining together of the things that are different. And

1297
01:14:00.800 --> 01:14:03.039
<v Speaker 2>so I think that's that's why, because sex is about

1298
01:14:03.039 --> 01:14:06.199
<v Speaker 2>the joining together of the things that are different, and

1299
01:14:06.239 --> 01:14:09.880
<v Speaker 2>so it's absolutely at the heart of the message of

1300
01:14:09.880 --> 01:14:12.399
<v Speaker 2>the Gospel. It's possible. You can do this. You can

1301
01:14:12.479 --> 01:14:14.600
<v Speaker 2>join together what's different, and you can do it in

1302
01:14:14.600 --> 01:14:17.079
<v Speaker 2>perfect love, and it can grow in union, and it

1303
01:14:17.079 --> 01:14:18.560
<v Speaker 2>can grow in union for a eternity.

1304
01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:24.880
<v Speaker 1>M beautiful brother, thank you for that. Thank you. It

1305
01:14:25.000 --> 01:14:29.439
<v Speaker 1>was like, you know, it's just there's so many different

1306
01:14:29.439 --> 01:14:34.199
<v Speaker 1>ways that that question could be answered and in just

1307
01:14:34.319 --> 01:14:37.239
<v Speaker 1>like you do in your book, and just like we've

1308
01:14:37.279 --> 01:14:40.079
<v Speaker 1>been talking, is the right way to try and do this?

1309
01:14:40.720 --> 01:14:45.279
<v Speaker 1>Is sure you could have answered in a polemical fashion,

1310
01:14:46.199 --> 01:14:49.079
<v Speaker 1>but but you chose to focus on the good and

1311
01:14:49.119 --> 01:14:51.159
<v Speaker 1>what well, why do we talk about it? Because it's

1312
01:14:51.159 --> 01:14:55.079
<v Speaker 1>beautiful if we don't just talk about why the ways

1313
01:14:55.119 --> 01:14:57.680
<v Speaker 1>that you are are kind of screwing it up, the

1314
01:14:57.760 --> 01:15:00.399
<v Speaker 1>ways that you're perverting the good. Well, let me tell

1315
01:15:00.439 --> 01:15:03.199
<v Speaker 1>you how the vision of what's truly good and the

1316
01:15:03.239 --> 01:15:05.880
<v Speaker 1>way that we're truly meant to live and it's it's

1317
01:15:05.920 --> 01:15:09.000
<v Speaker 1>that that whole thing. Wow, when you paint that picture,

1318
01:15:09.159 --> 01:15:09.960
<v Speaker 1>I want to live in it.

1319
01:15:10.560 --> 01:15:11.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1320
01:15:11.199 --> 01:15:15.359
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, Yeah, it's a gift from God. I've got some

1321
01:15:15.439 --> 01:15:20.159
<v Speaker 1>big picture questions for you really relating to reality. Where

1322
01:15:20.159 --> 01:15:22.359
<v Speaker 1>are we most eager to ignore reality?

1323
01:15:25.399 --> 01:15:27.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't know. That's a that's an interesting one.

1324
01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:31.119
<v Speaker 2>Where are we most ego to ignore reality? Well, probably

1325
01:15:31.119 --> 01:15:37.760
<v Speaker 2>wherever it's the greatest challenge to our own autonomy. I think,

1326
01:15:39.359 --> 01:15:41.079
<v Speaker 2>I think. I mean, it's something I actually I thought

1327
01:15:41.119 --> 01:15:43.680
<v Speaker 2>earlier I should probably mention. Is the idea of escapism,

1328
01:15:43.840 --> 01:15:47.760
<v Speaker 2>right that the part of the pornography temptation is the

1329
01:15:47.880 --> 01:15:52.119
<v Speaker 2>escape from reality. In reality, I'm struggling to form a relationship.

1330
01:15:52.279 --> 01:15:54.399
<v Speaker 2>I'm not meeting the people that I feel like I

1331
01:15:54.399 --> 01:15:57.800
<v Speaker 2>can connect to. But in pornography, I can imagine. I

1332
01:15:57.840 --> 01:15:59.840
<v Speaker 2>can imagine this. Yeah, I can take this image of

1333
01:15:59.840 --> 01:16:02.239
<v Speaker 2>this person and make that person whoever I want them

1334
01:16:02.279 --> 01:16:05.319
<v Speaker 2>to be and have that relationship however I want it

1335
01:16:05.359 --> 01:16:08.640
<v Speaker 2>to be. And that's a huge temptation of a break

1336
01:16:08.680 --> 01:16:12.520
<v Speaker 2>from reality. And you can understand exactly why that temptation exists.

1337
01:16:12.720 --> 01:16:15.279
<v Speaker 2>It's very obvious and being lonely is a horrible thing,

1338
01:16:16.000 --> 01:16:18.560
<v Speaker 2>and we've all experienced it at some degree. We know

1339
01:16:18.640 --> 01:16:21.720
<v Speaker 2>we don't like it, and so we understand why there

1340
01:16:21.720 --> 01:16:27.920
<v Speaker 2>are temptations to escape from it in an apparently easy way. Yeah.

1341
01:16:27.960 --> 01:16:32.199
<v Speaker 2>So I think that's it's important to live in reality

1342
01:16:32.279 --> 01:16:34.199
<v Speaker 2>because that's the only way of connecting with God in

1343
01:16:34.239 --> 01:16:39.119
<v Speaker 2>the end, because God is ultimate reality, and because we

1344
01:16:39.159 --> 01:16:42.079
<v Speaker 2>can't connect with anybody or anything. I mean, we can

1345
01:16:42.119 --> 01:16:44.239
<v Speaker 2>connect ourselves with lots of unreal things, but they lead

1346
01:16:44.600 --> 01:16:48.199
<v Speaker 2>to more unreal things, and we don't want that. We

1347
01:16:48.279 --> 01:16:51.479
<v Speaker 2>actually want reality. We want to love really and be

1348
01:16:51.600 --> 01:16:54.279
<v Speaker 2>really loved and be part of a real union. We

1349
01:16:54.439 --> 01:16:56.520
<v Speaker 2>want to be able to create things that are real

1350
01:16:56.600 --> 01:17:00.920
<v Speaker 2>and important and lasting and good. And we only we

1351
01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:04.039
<v Speaker 2>only satisfy ourselves with the evil because we think we can't.

1352
01:17:04.840 --> 01:17:07.079
<v Speaker 1>We can't it mm hmm.

1353
01:17:08.600 --> 01:17:12.479
<v Speaker 2>And hard. It's hard work. It's sometimes very hard work,

1354
01:17:13.720 --> 01:17:14.159
<v Speaker 2>trust me.

1355
01:17:14.399 --> 01:17:17.319
<v Speaker 1>That's why each other well each other.

1356
01:17:17.359 --> 01:17:18.680
<v Speaker 2>And we have the Church, and we have the and

1357
01:17:18.720 --> 01:17:22.319
<v Speaker 2>we have the Saints, and we have Christ ultimately, and

1358
01:17:23.479 --> 01:17:25.680
<v Speaker 2>we have to keep returning to that. And it's hard

1359
01:17:25.720 --> 01:17:27.880
<v Speaker 2>sometimes to do that, and we want to escape, but

1360
01:17:27.960 --> 01:17:30.359
<v Speaker 2>it's hard, but we have to keep going back because

1361
01:17:30.359 --> 01:17:32.439
<v Speaker 2>it's the only path. It's the only path that makes sense,

1362
01:17:32.479 --> 01:17:34.319
<v Speaker 2>if the only path that needs anyway good in the end.

1363
01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:37.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, a friend that we have in common. The first

1364
01:17:37.560 --> 01:17:39.880
<v Speaker 1>person that had on this podcast was Frederica Matthews Green,

1365
01:17:40.479 --> 01:17:42.640
<v Speaker 1>and I asked her. I said, well, what went through

1366
01:17:42.640 --> 01:17:45.079
<v Speaker 1>your mind when you saw the name of this podcast?

1367
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:48.359
<v Speaker 1>Commitment to reality? She she got to give her answer,

1368
01:17:48.359 --> 01:17:50.439
<v Speaker 1>and I said, well, I think that the most important

1369
01:17:50.479 --> 01:17:55.880
<v Speaker 1>word is commitment. Yeah, but for me, because I mean, yes,

1370
01:17:55.920 --> 01:17:59.000
<v Speaker 1>reality exists whether you realize it, admit it or not.

1371
01:17:59.600 --> 01:18:03.039
<v Speaker 1>But it's making that commitment. And it's hard. I mean,

1372
01:18:03.079 --> 01:18:06.199
<v Speaker 1>we've talked about words in it's watchfulness, it's it's it's

1373
01:18:06.399 --> 01:18:11.960
<v Speaker 1>it's ascetical disciplines and practices. But hard things are almost

1374
01:18:12.000 --> 01:18:16.000
<v Speaker 1>always worth it, Like do the hard thing, like you know,

1375
01:18:17.039 --> 01:18:19.640
<v Speaker 1>going for a run. I don't always want to do it,

1376
01:18:20.239 --> 01:18:23.359
<v Speaker 1>but I can say with the high degree of certainty

1377
01:18:23.359 --> 01:18:26.000
<v Speaker 1>that I'm almost always happy that I did, unless I

1378
01:18:26.079 --> 01:18:27.399
<v Speaker 1>like pull the hamstring or something.

1379
01:18:27.399 --> 01:18:32.159
<v Speaker 2>My best example of that confession, I never really liked

1380
01:18:32.199 --> 01:18:34.279
<v Speaker 2>the idea of going, but I'm always really happy when

1381
01:18:34.279 --> 01:18:34.720
<v Speaker 2>they come out.

1382
01:18:35.960 --> 01:18:38.720
<v Speaker 1>It's a hard thing. No, you're right, I mean every

1383
01:18:38.720 --> 01:18:42.079
<v Speaker 1>time you're like, oh man, going in and you just

1384
01:18:42.279 --> 01:18:46.079
<v Speaker 1>there's and it's it's a really really good example. And

1385
01:18:46.119 --> 01:18:47.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm glad that you brought it up because there's a

1386
01:18:47.680 --> 01:18:51.159
<v Speaker 1>lot of people, especially well even Orthodox people might not

1387
01:18:51.479 --> 01:18:55.000
<v Speaker 1>like to do it. But it's that concept of being

1388
01:18:55.119 --> 01:18:57.720
<v Speaker 1>truly seen. And I say this to my kids just

1389
01:18:57.760 --> 01:18:59.359
<v Speaker 1>the same way that you brought it up with yours.

1390
01:18:59.800 --> 01:19:05.000
<v Speaker 1>I love you. Let me love you, not the mask,

1391
01:19:05.520 --> 01:19:10.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean. And and you go in fearing the bad priest,

1392
01:19:11.560 --> 01:19:14.520
<v Speaker 1>right or the judgmental priest, or the person who's gonna

1393
01:19:14.880 --> 01:19:19.119
<v Speaker 1>tell you how bad you are. And and my experience,

1394
01:19:19.239 --> 01:19:23.000
<v Speaker 1>I always walk away feeling loved and seen and and

1395
01:19:23.000 --> 01:19:26.119
<v Speaker 1>and you know it's it's before the face of Christ.

1396
01:19:26.560 --> 01:19:30.760
<v Speaker 1>And what can be more relieving, you know, is that

1397
01:19:31.720 --> 01:19:34.399
<v Speaker 1>you see me and you love me.

1398
01:19:34.680 --> 01:19:38.560
<v Speaker 2>Astonishing is you know, I did? I did. I somehow

1399
01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:41.680
<v Speaker 2>still to this day sometimes seem to imagine that I

1400
01:19:41.720 --> 01:19:43.520
<v Speaker 2>can hide things from from Christ.

1401
01:19:48.840 --> 01:19:54.319
<v Speaker 1>We're deluded, yeah, but in a world that feels increasingly unreal,

1402
01:19:54.800 --> 01:19:58.159
<v Speaker 1>you know. By One of the other motivations for this

1403
01:19:58.279 --> 01:20:02.880
<v Speaker 1>podcast is our world is changing rapidly, I mean, with

1404
01:20:03.319 --> 01:20:08.600
<v Speaker 1>the assent of Ai and just I mean, I use

1405
01:20:08.680 --> 01:20:11.399
<v Speaker 1>the term future shock all the time. I think it's

1406
01:20:11.399 --> 01:20:14.760
<v Speaker 1>so funny because, you know, I think it was Charlton

1407
01:20:14.800 --> 01:20:19.560
<v Speaker 1>Aston in promoting future shock. He was doing a documentary

1408
01:20:19.560 --> 01:20:21.600
<v Speaker 1>on it, I think, and he's in a library and

1409
01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:25.199
<v Speaker 1>he's like, look at all of this information. Man has

1410
01:20:25.319 --> 01:20:28.720
<v Speaker 1>never had access to information like this ever before. And

1411
01:20:28.760 --> 01:20:32.720
<v Speaker 1>we're experiencing a state of a future shock of paralysis.

1412
01:20:32.840 --> 01:20:37.039
<v Speaker 1>And I remember watching that on YouTube and thinking he

1413
01:20:37.119 --> 01:20:41.720
<v Speaker 1>had no idea. You thought that was future shock? Like this,

1414
01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:44.399
<v Speaker 1>we are in shock, and so you know, we live

1415
01:20:44.439 --> 01:20:48.800
<v Speaker 1>in this world. It's increasingly feels unreal. What do you,

1416
01:20:49.039 --> 01:20:51.199
<v Speaker 1>Andrew Williams feels most real?

1417
01:20:55.680 --> 01:20:58.359
<v Speaker 2>I think it's and I think this is why I

1418
01:20:58.399 --> 01:21:03.560
<v Speaker 2>really appreciate my job, because I go in and talk

1419
01:21:03.640 --> 01:21:11.960
<v Speaker 2>to people who have incredibly difficult lives, and it's an

1420
01:21:12.079 --> 01:21:15.319
<v Speaker 2>enormous blessing. It's an enormous blessing to be able to

1421
01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:20.239
<v Speaker 2>share the reality of the situation and to be open

1422
01:21:21.039 --> 01:21:25.159
<v Speaker 2>to to to being there, you know, and and and

1423
01:21:25.199 --> 01:21:28.560
<v Speaker 2>to understand why people want to avoid it or escape

1424
01:21:28.600 --> 01:21:32.960
<v Speaker 2>from it or reinterpret it, but to just be able

1425
01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:33.479
<v Speaker 2>to be there.

1426
01:21:34.319 --> 01:21:35.239
<v Speaker 1>Mm hm.

1427
01:21:35.239 --> 01:21:41.720
<v Speaker 2>So I think I really value the ability to have

1428
01:21:41.760 --> 01:21:48.399
<v Speaker 2>those really real relationships, even even when they're difficult or

1429
01:21:48.439 --> 01:21:55.760
<v Speaker 2>sad and heartbreaking sometimes but they're but that's they're real

1430
01:21:55.960 --> 01:22:00.720
<v Speaker 2>and and the people are real, and we're all in

1431
01:22:00.840 --> 01:22:08.039
<v Speaker 2>this weird journey of live together. And yeah, I think

1432
01:22:08.079 --> 01:22:10.199
<v Speaker 2>I sort of lost a bit of a taste for

1433
01:22:10.239 --> 01:22:18.520
<v Speaker 2>the for the fake, and so I really appreciate those

1434
01:22:18.640 --> 01:22:22.560
<v Speaker 2>those moments when people and you know, I've never met

1435
01:22:22.560 --> 01:22:25.960
<v Speaker 2>more honest people than people in mental health wors and

1436
01:22:25.960 --> 01:22:30.479
<v Speaker 2>and also people with such a genuine interest in the

1437
01:22:30.520 --> 01:22:34.520
<v Speaker 2>reality of the spiritual life and what it means, often

1438
01:22:34.560 --> 01:22:37.079
<v Speaker 2>masters of research and come up with some really quite

1439
01:22:37.199 --> 01:22:41.479
<v Speaker 2>inventive answers, some tellius, but I mean the conversations are

1440
01:22:41.479 --> 01:22:44.159
<v Speaker 2>always fascinating. What was that?

1441
01:22:44.199 --> 01:22:49.880
<v Speaker 1>There was a movie with Leonardo DiCaprio and I can't

1442
01:22:49.920 --> 01:22:53.039
<v Speaker 1>remember what it was, but there was a character and

1443
01:22:53.119 --> 01:22:57.680
<v Speaker 1>I think he won an Oscar for the for the performance.

1444
01:22:58.079 --> 01:23:01.560
<v Speaker 1>But he was crazy. He was the only one who

1445
01:23:01.720 --> 01:23:04.199
<v Speaker 1>saw things and said things as they truly were.

1446
01:23:04.279 --> 01:23:07.119
<v Speaker 2>They were uncomfortable told tradition of the you know, the

1447
01:23:07.159 --> 01:23:12.800
<v Speaker 2>holy fool, which I think is really important. And sometimes

1448
01:23:12.840 --> 01:23:16.399
<v Speaker 2>it is the person who will actually just say what

1449
01:23:16.520 --> 01:23:20.439
<v Speaker 2>they see and when the rest of us are sort

1450
01:23:20.439 --> 01:23:24.840
<v Speaker 2>of conforming to various societal requirements and not able to

1451
01:23:24.880 --> 01:23:25.159
<v Speaker 2>do that.

1452
01:23:26.279 --> 01:23:29.520
<v Speaker 1>Revolution Road I think was the movie. Uh yeah, And

1453
01:23:29.680 --> 01:23:32.319
<v Speaker 1>what you're talking about, what my mind just drifts there.

1454
01:23:32.600 --> 01:23:37.800
<v Speaker 1>You know, you're talking about suffering, and what feels real

1455
01:23:37.880 --> 01:23:40.840
<v Speaker 1>is is being in the presence of suffering with another

1456
01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:43.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, not exclusively, but that's that's where my mind

1457
01:23:43.880 --> 01:23:46.279
<v Speaker 1>goes when you're when you're talking about it. Yeah, and

1458
01:23:46.319 --> 01:23:50.920
<v Speaker 1>the aforementioned justin Marler when I had him on the podcast,

1459
01:23:50.920 --> 01:23:53.840
<v Speaker 1>he said that a monk when he was in the monastery,

1460
01:23:53.920 --> 01:23:57.079
<v Speaker 1>he was a monk for a while, he said something

1461
01:23:57.079 --> 01:23:59.880
<v Speaker 1>that shattered his paradigm. And I said, I want to

1462
01:24:00.039 --> 01:24:01.960
<v Speaker 1>feel that, and I'm keeping it with me for the

1463
01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:05.800
<v Speaker 1>rest of my life. Said, we're taught in our modern

1464
01:24:05.800 --> 01:24:08.920
<v Speaker 1>world to avoid suffering. Suffering is evil, Suffering is bad.

1465
01:24:09.640 --> 01:24:12.319
<v Speaker 1>And the monk told him when you're suffering. Now once again,

1466
01:24:12.359 --> 01:24:15.680
<v Speaker 1>this isn't in a masochistic way where you seek out suffering, said,

1467
01:24:15.720 --> 01:24:22.880
<v Speaker 1>when you're suffering, God's visiting you. And I mean, maybe

1468
01:24:22.880 --> 01:24:24.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm reading too much into it, but when you say,

1469
01:24:24.640 --> 01:24:29.439
<v Speaker 1>I mean you if you're with people who are suffering,

1470
01:24:29.960 --> 01:24:32.479
<v Speaker 1>what feels most real to you, is the presence of God.

1471
01:24:33.760 --> 01:24:36.479
<v Speaker 2>Yes, No, I think that's right. I think that's absolutely right.

1472
01:24:36.560 --> 01:24:39.520
<v Speaker 2>But and I would also say that that in the

1473
01:24:39.520 --> 01:24:43.760
<v Speaker 2>midst of suffering there is also joy and that's also

1474
01:24:43.800 --> 01:24:48.640
<v Speaker 2>the presence of God. Not always obviously, that the joy

1475
01:24:48.680 --> 01:24:51.000
<v Speaker 2>isn't always there, but there are moments, there are moments

1476
01:24:51.000 --> 01:24:51.520
<v Speaker 2>of joy.

1477
01:24:52.199 --> 01:24:57.199
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm. How because I can hear somebody saying, not

1478
01:24:57.800 --> 01:25:00.159
<v Speaker 1>my suffering, I've never felt joy and suffering.

1479
01:25:00.760 --> 01:25:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, maybe, And I think maybe that's the individual thing

1480
01:25:03.720 --> 01:25:05.560
<v Speaker 2>as well, because I think it's when we when we

1481
01:25:05.720 --> 01:25:08.279
<v Speaker 2>when we when we join together there, when we sit

1482
01:25:08.359 --> 01:25:10.840
<v Speaker 2>in the place of suffering together, that we can find

1483
01:25:11.760 --> 01:25:14.359
<v Speaker 2>the moments of joy even lefter. You know, I've I've

1484
01:25:14.560 --> 01:25:18.479
<v Speaker 2>experienced times of lefter with people who are dying, with

1485
01:25:18.560 --> 01:25:21.520
<v Speaker 2>people who are in the bits of terrible suffering. And

1486
01:25:22.520 --> 01:25:28.840
<v Speaker 2>the humanity is humanity, and that that hope is always there,

1487
01:25:28.960 --> 01:25:32.199
<v Speaker 2>and there there are moments that come, sometimes quite surprisingly

1488
01:25:32.239 --> 01:25:37.760
<v Speaker 2>out of the blue, moments of joy and beauty.

1489
01:25:37.600 --> 01:25:44.079
<v Speaker 1>Particularly beautiful bright sadness. Yeah, absolutely, will you talk about hope?

1490
01:25:44.079 --> 01:25:46.560
<v Speaker 1>And I'd like to end that way, you know, for

1491
01:25:46.600 --> 01:25:48.720
<v Speaker 1>a podcast on pornography, I feel like we didn't talk

1492
01:25:48.720 --> 01:25:51.159
<v Speaker 1>about pornography a whole lot, which is kind of the point.

1493
01:25:51.359 --> 01:25:54.960
<v Speaker 1>That's it's kind of like that that that that I've

1494
01:25:55.000 --> 01:25:57.880
<v Speaker 1>read it before, where you know, a priest is told

1495
01:25:58.520 --> 01:26:01.239
<v Speaker 1>somebody confessing. You know, you think your sins are special,

1496
01:26:01.399 --> 01:26:05.079
<v Speaker 1>they're actually kind of boring. They're all the same. You know,

1497
01:26:05.159 --> 01:26:06.880
<v Speaker 1>it's beauty and that's unique.

1498
01:26:08.840 --> 01:26:12.079
<v Speaker 2>Look at the same slaves.

1499
01:26:12.840 --> 01:26:16.520
<v Speaker 1>But you know, hope, hope for anybody who you know,

1500
01:26:17.239 --> 01:26:19.279
<v Speaker 1>Glory to God, thank God. It's not something that I

1501
01:26:19.319 --> 01:26:23.600
<v Speaker 1>personally struggle with in the in the more acute version,

1502
01:26:23.720 --> 01:26:25.520
<v Speaker 1>not the because you did say that we all have

1503
01:26:25.560 --> 01:26:29.640
<v Speaker 1>a pornography problem. But for somebody who's really struggling with pornography,

1504
01:26:30.319 --> 01:26:34.399
<v Speaker 1>give them hope, give them a way out.

1505
01:26:35.039 --> 01:26:39.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's I mean, I think the way out in

1506
01:26:39.680 --> 01:26:43.520
<v Speaker 2>all of these things is always real relationship. You have

1507
01:26:43.600 --> 01:26:46.960
<v Speaker 2>to It's difficult because it requires being vulnerable, and being

1508
01:26:47.039 --> 01:26:50.319
<v Speaker 2>vulnerable is a risk. Okay, whenever we take that step

1509
01:26:50.359 --> 01:26:53.159
<v Speaker 2>to be vulnerable, we're taking a risk, and there are

1510
01:26:53.199 --> 01:26:55.079
<v Speaker 2>people we can't trust and there are people who will

1511
01:26:55.079 --> 01:26:58.239
<v Speaker 2>abuse that. So it's a difficult thing. But I do

1512
01:26:58.319 --> 01:27:02.319
<v Speaker 2>think that the answer to to the problem is if

1513
01:27:02.359 --> 01:27:04.039
<v Speaker 2>you have to find a place where you can make

1514
01:27:04.079 --> 01:27:06.720
<v Speaker 2>yourself vulnerable. You have to find a person that you

1515
01:27:06.720 --> 01:27:10.680
<v Speaker 2>can trust and make yourself vulnerable with. And when you start,

1516
01:27:10.760 --> 01:27:14.800
<v Speaker 2>once you start to make that real connection, you understand

1517
01:27:14.920 --> 01:27:18.960
<v Speaker 2>how much more that's worse than all of this fake stuff.

1518
01:27:20.680 --> 01:27:24.279
<v Speaker 2>And I don't think there's anybody who choose this, this

1519
01:27:24.560 --> 01:27:27.880
<v Speaker 2>imaginary reality for the real one once they've experienced the

1520
01:27:27.880 --> 01:27:30.279
<v Speaker 2>real one. But I just think there's so many people

1521
01:27:30.359 --> 01:27:33.399
<v Speaker 2>in this world that are lonely and that don't have

1522
01:27:33.640 --> 01:27:35.479
<v Speaker 2>a person that they feel they can turn to and

1523
01:27:35.560 --> 01:27:40.439
<v Speaker 2>actually willingly make themselves vulnerable. And so I think that's

1524
01:27:40.640 --> 01:27:42.319
<v Speaker 2>that's the key, that's the key.

1525
01:27:43.840 --> 01:27:48.279
<v Speaker 1>Vulnerability when properly harnessed, is a superpower, true vulnerability.

1526
01:27:48.399 --> 01:27:53.560
<v Speaker 2>Not yeah, absolutely, but it's always a risk. It's always

1527
01:27:53.600 --> 01:27:53.920
<v Speaker 2>a risk.

1528
01:27:55.680 --> 01:27:57.560
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if it's directly core a litive, but

1529
01:27:57.600 --> 01:28:00.520
<v Speaker 1>it's right below. And I think, hey, if there's an

1530
01:28:00.600 --> 01:28:03.000
<v Speaker 1>opportunity to bake this end to the end of the podcast,

1531
01:28:03.079 --> 01:28:05.800
<v Speaker 1>why not? Because I read it and I thought it's

1532
01:28:05.840 --> 01:28:09.680
<v Speaker 1>too good. Stand on the edge of the abyss and

1533
01:28:09.720 --> 01:28:12.800
<v Speaker 1>when you feel it's beyond your strength, break off and

1534
01:28:12.840 --> 01:28:13.760
<v Speaker 1>have a cup of tea.

1535
01:28:14.479 --> 01:28:17.119
<v Speaker 2>Do you know what I quoted that so often. Apparently

1536
01:28:17.319 --> 01:28:19.479
<v Speaker 2>in one of the hospital justs that I worked in

1537
01:28:19.760 --> 01:28:22.800
<v Speaker 2>that when I moved, when I left, as a as

1538
01:28:22.840 --> 01:28:25.239
<v Speaker 2>a parting gift, they gave me a mug with that

1539
01:28:25.359 --> 01:28:27.479
<v Speaker 2>quote on. So I have a mug and I drink

1540
01:28:27.520 --> 01:28:29.720
<v Speaker 2>coffee out of it every morning with that quote right

1541
01:28:29.800 --> 01:28:32.960
<v Speaker 2>on it. So I'll never never be able to escape it.

1542
01:28:33.039 --> 01:28:35.920
<v Speaker 2>Now I don't want to because I think that's an

1543
01:28:35.920 --> 01:28:37.920
<v Speaker 2>absolutely beautiful, beautiful quote.

1544
01:28:38.800 --> 01:28:41.600
<v Speaker 1>It will unpack it and then we'll leave. I mean,

1545
01:28:41.640 --> 01:28:43.199
<v Speaker 1>why do you love that quote so much? Because I

1546
01:28:43.239 --> 01:28:44.920
<v Speaker 1>saw it and I go, I don't know how to

1547
01:28:44.960 --> 01:28:46.880
<v Speaker 1>work that in. It feels like I might have to

1548
01:28:46.960 --> 01:28:49.399
<v Speaker 1>force it. But it's so beautiful because it's what we,

1549
01:28:49.520 --> 01:28:52.079
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we're called to do. It's the watchfulness, and

1550
01:28:52.159 --> 01:28:54.039
<v Speaker 1>it's it can feel so heavy.

1551
01:28:55.319 --> 01:28:57.159
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I think it's just that it's just that

1552
01:28:57.239 --> 01:29:00.359
<v Speaker 2>reality of it, isn't it that that? Yes? Okay, we

1553
01:29:00.359 --> 01:29:02.239
<v Speaker 2>we want to be heroes, we want to do grand deats,

1554
01:29:02.560 --> 01:29:04.880
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes we really struggle and we suffer and we

1555
01:29:04.960 --> 01:29:11.399
<v Speaker 2>have to contemplate, you know, this existential gap, what's missing.

1556
01:29:12.520 --> 01:29:15.279
<v Speaker 2>But but we have to also just be normal human

1557
01:29:15.319 --> 01:29:18.520
<v Speaker 2>beings and say, actually, you know, I can I can

1558
01:29:18.560 --> 01:29:21.239
<v Speaker 2>do this for so long, but I don't have all

1559
01:29:21.239 --> 01:29:25.000
<v Speaker 2>that strength I need. I need a cap of perhaps

1560
01:29:25.039 --> 01:29:27.600
<v Speaker 2>a couple of coffee if you.

1561
01:29:26.840 --> 01:29:30.720
<v Speaker 1>Context coffee, or you know, depending on the time of day,

1562
01:29:30.760 --> 01:29:36.159
<v Speaker 1>maybe a recent you go have a pint. But Andrew Williams,

1563
01:29:36.560 --> 01:29:39.319
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much. When I when I was conceiving

1564
01:29:39.800 --> 01:29:41.640
<v Speaker 1>of this podcast, you were one of the people that

1565
01:29:41.680 --> 01:29:45.000
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to talk to first and foremost because I

1566
01:29:45.079 --> 01:29:49.279
<v Speaker 1>just really really appreciated your book. And I think, like

1567
01:29:49.319 --> 01:29:49.880
<v Speaker 1>I said.

1568
01:29:50.720 --> 01:29:53.119
<v Speaker 2>I think because I wouldn't have done it without a

1569
01:29:53.119 --> 01:29:54.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of pressure.

1570
01:29:56.880 --> 01:29:59.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's just it's a it's a perfect example of

1571
01:29:59.159 --> 01:30:01.439
<v Speaker 1>how you take a a subject that can be so

1572
01:30:01.640 --> 01:30:06.520
<v Speaker 1>dark and the answer is light. Yeah. Yeah, So thank

1573
01:30:06.560 --> 01:30:08.600
<v Speaker 1>you so much for joining me on commitment to reality.

1574
01:30:08.600 --> 01:30:11.520
<v Speaker 1>I appreciate you, I love you, and I thank God

1575
01:30:11.560 --> 01:30:11.760
<v Speaker 1>for you.

1576
01:30:13.760 --> 01:30:15.359
<v Speaker 2>Twice. Thank you.