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support everyone gives me. It keeps a show going. It

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and I'm not going to stop. I'm just going to accelerate.

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I think sometimes you see that I'm putting out two

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do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone

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back to the Pekegana Show. Paul Fahrenheit is back and

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we will continue with the Spain series kind of Hey, don't, Paul.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing very well, mister Pete. Thank you for having

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me back on. I'm very grateful that you have once

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again given me the chance to talk about Spain and

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all this. It's been a little while since we did

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an episode of this, but it's been a very busy

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election season.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's trying to keep up with everything that's happening

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is kind of hard. But yeah, you said that we're

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going to talk about one of my favorite subjects today,

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but not the brighter, not the better side of it

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for some part. So go right ahead, tell everybody what

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we're doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So if the listeners will remember the table of

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contents episode that we did previously, what we discussed for

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this episode, which is episode four, episode five, count counting

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the disputation, it's episode five. But what we're going to

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be discussing today, right is actually not Spain because in

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order to understand the position that Spain and the Spanish

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Empire and the HAPs Empire, this is where the empire

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part of the Spanish Empire comes from, and much the

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same way that the empire part of the British Empire

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comes from. Being Emperor of India, and you cannot a

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you know, understand the British Empire without understanding the British raj.

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You cannot understand the Spanish Empire without understanding the Holy

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Roman Empire. And you can't understand the Holy Roman Empire

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without understanding its history, particularly in relation with its you know,

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creator and patron sometimes in the papacy. And so when

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we were talking about, you know, the analysis we are

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going on with this series is world systems theory, specifically

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from the Christendom world system as the world system immediately

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preceding the sort of United Nations world system that we

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live under. And the comparison is an apt one because

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the papacy actually played a very ended up playing a

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very similar role as to what the United Nations does today.

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And this is actually part of the part of what

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we're going to be talking about today. So we're going

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to be talking about we're going to unfortunately be doing

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something that I said we wouldn't do in this series,

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which is we're going to have to in order to

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really even begin talking about what led to this issue,

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because you can't talk about the final centuries of the

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Christendom world system and the contemporaneous rise of the Spanish

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Empire without understanding the various cracks and the foundation that

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led Europe to this point that resulted not only in

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the Protestant Reformation, but in the circumstances which brought about

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the Protestant Reformation, and as well as I guess you

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could say, in fighting within the Catholic world. Even those

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countries that did not become Protestant, there was various competing

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interests within the Catholic world, most notably between the Kingdom

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of France and the Holy Roman Empire. This goes back aways,

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This very much goes back aways. So in order to

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properly understand this, we need to go I don't want

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to say go back to the beginning. We don't need

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to go go super super far back, but we need

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we do need to go back about i'd say five

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hundred years or so. So the relationship between the emperor

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and the Pope served a very interesting role within the

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Christendom world system. Right, so, mister Pete, if I could

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make a comparison that might infuriate some people within the

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UN world system, the globalist world system we currently live in.

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The United Nations is the in theory highest arm of sovereignty.

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It is above all nations. It is the set of

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international laws, which you know, which is higher than every

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other nation on earth. But NATO is the military arm

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that backs it up. Everyone knows that NATO and the

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United Nations work hand in hand. They are one and

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the same. They are inseparable right. NATO, of course is

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backed by the United States, which is the first of

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the various legal entities that make up this world system,

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and it is the stick that keeps everyone else in

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NATO in line, and NATO is the stick which in

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turn keeps the rest of the world in line for

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the UN Are you following me so far?

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Speaker 1: I'm following, okay.

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Speaker 2: So within the Christendom world system, the pope and the

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papacy as the head of the church with apostolic authority

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in an extremely Christian paradigm, was the highest spiritual authority

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and in many ways the legal authority all law found

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it sort of at least all moral law. Its origin

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within the within the faith of Jesus Christ, which the

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Catholic Church was the earthly representative of right. This was

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the This was the paradigm. Within the christen the world system,

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the Holy Roman Empire, which was a collection of various

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you know, semi autonomous states underneath a single underneath a

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single sort of revolving emperorship, and there was different ways

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of selection. At first, it was at first it was

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a dynastic thing. You know, one family would become emperor,

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and then they would pass it and then another family.

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If that that one family died out, it would pass

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to another family through and and this of course resulted

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in chaos that was not resolved until the Golden Bowl

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of Charles the Fourth, if I remember correctly, which basically

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created the sort of euro universalis for the Europa universalas

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for electorate system of how Roman Empire was selected Holy

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Roman Emperor that was the Holy Roman Emperor was you know,

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that's kind of like the Byzantine Empire. It's kind of

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an after the fact sort of, you know, read back

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on to the history that occurred. Much like the Byzantine

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Empire called themselves the Basilian Romana or the Roman Empire,

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the Western emperors Charlemagne Auto the Great were considered the

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exact same thing as that. They were considered as though,

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you know, they were like Charlemagne was considered as though

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a new caesar had been crowned in the West for

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the first time in a long time, you know, despite

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the fact that Justinian had attempted to reconquer the western

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part of the Mediterranean.

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Speaker 3: But.

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Speaker 2: It you know, everyone also kind of understood that it

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wasn't really the Roman Empire the way it used to be,

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but it kind of fulfilled the same role because this.

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Speaker 4: This this sort of the this tie between the Christian

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faith and this idea of a Roman Empire begins with Constantine,

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begins with Constantine, and the conversion of the Roman Empire

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and the Christianization of the Roman Empire as time went on,

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because the early Church, at least in the West, now the.

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Speaker 2: Church went to various other places, not just into the

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Roman Empire, but the early Church in the West started

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shaping itself, you know, utilizing We talk a lot about

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parallelism a lot. The early Church was a really good

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example of this. The early Church started shaping itself in

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parallel to the political entity which it found itself within,

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which was the Roman Empire. Rome had a provincial system

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of governing, It had a whole similar provincial system with

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its priests, with its governors, et cetera. And so the

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early Christian Church mirrored this. It established similar it established

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its own districts in the same places. You know, Bishops

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were usually in the same cities that provincial governors were,

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and this was a very effective system, especially as the

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government hemorrhaged. The Roman government hemorrhaged authority, and Roman citizens

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would more and more and more just start going to

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the Christian bishop or a priest because they had a

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sense of legitimacy or at least a sense of impartiality

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and justice, and decisions would be made that were far

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more satisfying than the joke that was the Roman legal

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system at the time, which is very similar to the

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joke that is our legal system at the time. But

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fast forward this a little bit, right, Auto the Great

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re establishes the Holy Roman Empire, because Charlemagne was only

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only declared emperor, but after he died it kind of

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goes away. But Auto the Great re establishes firmly the

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institution that becomes the Holy Roman Empire, which the pope confirms.

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All right, now, what in order to understand the relationship

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of the papacy to what would then be called the Empire,

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you need to compare it to, frankly, the power that

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was right next door that also called itself the Roman Empire,

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which was Byzantium. Byzantium also had a church structure within

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its you know, legal polity. However, that church structure was

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very firmly as it you know, as it kind of

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became when Constantine converted the empire. It was very firmly

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under the emperor and what would later become Orthodox Christianity.

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Although this is prior to the schism, but not very

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far prior to the schism, the church in the Byzantine

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Empire was very much subordinate to the will of the empire. Now,

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this resulted in far less conflicts between civil and religious authorities.

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On the other hand, it also resulted in far less

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evangelization because what started happening was is the emperor of

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the Byzantine Empire only really use the evangelization of the

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Christian faith as a means of state craft, right, you

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know the Slavs were converted, Yes, but that's because the

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Slavs were the primary neighbors of the Byzantine Empire and

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were various military threats and also had access to various

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commodities which the Byzantine economy ran off. Of The Byzantines

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weren't exactly hostolitizing the near East. They weren't trying to

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take the I mean, you know, they were requesting help

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against Islam, but they weren't. They weren't like exporting missionaries

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by the hundreds, by the thousands, the way that the

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Western European powers would eventually end up doing. That's not

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what they were doing. So if you compare this to

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the papacy and the Holy Roman Empire, the papacy is

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a separate institution from the emperor from the empire. Now,

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the papacy theoretically decides who is crowned emperor, but for

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the most part it kind of became a rubber stamp

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because prior to the first thing we're really going to

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talk about, prior to the Gregorian Reforms, which occur from

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about ten fifty to ten to eighty, which is done

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by Gregory the seventh, Pope Gregory the seventh, if I

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remember correctly, prior to this m HM, there was you know,

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the the word Catholic meant the same thing that it

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does in the Nicene Creed, which meant just there's one

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Church of Jesus Christ. But there was very very very

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little centralized exercised authority by the Bishop of Rome and

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the papacy because of the the as you know, as

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Western Rome fell and these Germanic tribes came in, and

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you had all of the shifting in land and in

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you know, kingdoms in what was once the Western Roman Empire.

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You had this flurry of Christian missionaries going out into Frankia,

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going out into Britannia and Hispania, going into like you

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know what's now Germany, and they were just converting. It

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was much it was very much the same thing as

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what occurred within the New World. It was there was

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no real you know, rhyme or reason to it, no

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real organization to it. Beyond in the New World, there

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were monastic orders, but within that those monastic orders weren't

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very tightly controlled, which is why the Jesuits were able

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to spread so far and so fast. So yeah, and

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in the early in this period about the fall of

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the Roman Empire, the establishment of Western Europe, there wasn't

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really any central hierarchy. There were bishops, yes, and there

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was a church council, and there was a series of

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church councils, and certain bishops had much more authority than

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other bishops in certain areas, and there were Apostolic seas

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and there were you know, there was a kind of

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a vague hierarchy, but there wasn't a lot of command

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and control. And really it wasn't super effective for there

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to be command and control because the empire was collapsed.

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All infrastructure was more or less shot. You know, the

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best people making decisions on the ground were people who

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are on the ground making decisions. And you could also

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argue that this is, this is why Christianity spread so

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quickly throughout Western Europe was simply because it was almost

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this emergent phenomenon that it had very little direction at all.

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And you know, so anyway, I'm kind of been I've

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kind of been going for a little while on that.

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But in about ten to fifty, right in about ten

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to fifty, the Gregorian reforms start to get implemented. Now, yes,

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it starts with Pope Gregory the second, all right, and

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this is because right this, this has a reason. There's

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a reason that Pope Gregory kind of calls a people

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sort of you know, calls together all his advisors within

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the papacy, right because there were some significant issues with

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clergy and clerics throughout pretty much the entirety of Europe.

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Speaker 3: Right there, there were This was like there were issues

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of issues of what was called simony, which were priests

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charging money to do certain tasks to do like to

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perform marriages or to you know, this is very very

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much like illegal today, I believe within the Catholic Church,

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but you can't this was rampant at the time.

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Speaker 2: There was all sorts of sexual licentiousness going on with

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many priests. There was. Basically this was enough of a

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problem that Pope Gregory the seventh decided that something needed

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to be done about it. And so what he does

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what he does in an attempt. And also additionally, various

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priests are kind of utilizing their authority as as justification,

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as ammunition, as assistants for various civil authorities around where

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they are. And this is because the papacy actually in

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many places in Western Europe prior to the Gregorian reforms

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did not have any control over who, you know, in

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some cases over priests being appointed, especially not bishops. In Germany,

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for example the Holy Rown Empire, bishops were appointed by

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the civil rulers in whichever area that they were in.

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I think something similar was happening in France and even

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in Ireland, you know which wasn't even like which was

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half civilized. It was like almost a semi tribal place.

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Bishops were appointed by clan authorities. So this was and

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there was no you, and in some places the papacy

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did control whether bishops were appointed, but it was a

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very uneven system and and it was very difficult for

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the papacy to retain any sort of continuity of authority,

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any sort of you know, centrality of moral instruction, of

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biblical instruction, et cetera. So Pope Gregory decides to start

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implementing these reforms. And one of those things, one of

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those things that they claimed that is kind of kicks

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off this this whole episode, is that the pope and

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the papal ce in Rome had the authority through apostolic succession,

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to regulate the selection of all clergy within the entirety

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of Christendom. All right now, today that seems like, oh, yeah,

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well within the Catholic Church. Yeah, the the church controls

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every every priest that is that is in the church.

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Because you know that it's a hierarchy. It's it's it's

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church hierarchy. It's ecclesiastical, it's it's it's separate from the

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civil authority, right, we you know, unless we live in

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a theocracy, right, And and that wasn't as much of a

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thing in the eleventh century, and it was not a

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piece of political power that the various civil authorities, but

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especially the Holy Roman Empire. Now there was a battle

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about this in England as well, but that's kind of

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less important. But within the Holy Roman Empire, this wasn't

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outrage the civil authorities and the emperor had decided, had

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declared who the priests were going to be, who the

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bishops were going to be, who was going to fulfill

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every single you know, what we today consider a church office.

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That was that was a very significant piece of power

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within the Christendom paradigm because within the sort of mental

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geography of your average individual, you know, every regime, right

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has its sort of myth of legitimacy. Is that what

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it's called from elite theory, myth of legitimacy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if that's the exact the exact phrasing,

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but it could definitely get I guess the idea out there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's yeah, whatever the exact phrase is, I'm

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sure someone's gonna say it in the comments. But but

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But basically what I'm saying is that every regime has

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a claim that it is the legitimate regime. And this

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claim is usually a moral one, or an ideological one,

305
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or a religious one, right, And the most the most

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powerful regimes and the longest lasting ones have religious claims,

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as we have found out. And you could even you

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can honestly even argue that there's no such thing as

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a non religious claim to legitimacy. You know, because because

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because our current, our current wold paradigmister Pete, right, they've

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got their own state religion with you know, tranees and

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and and and you know, other groups of people and

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black women as the as the as the source of

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moral authority.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting I was talking with someone today and we

316
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were talking about how you get demonized for being a

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great man, like, you know, no one can. I'm not

318
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,440
calling Trump a great man, but he's definitely somebody who

319
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,279
talks like, you know, like he's trying to build a legacy,

320
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like he's trying to do something great for people and

321
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everything like that, and how that's verboten nowadays, and but

322
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it's it's not verboten if you're doing it for like

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00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:53,400
marginalized groups like trans people or gay people, or some

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kind of black trends, you know, pediatrist or something like that.

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We discussed that today. It's really odd how we've reached

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that point, and that's a derail ust and everything. It

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just that reminded of it is how you're not allowed

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to be forevery you're not allowed to appeal to the masses,

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You're not allowed to be a populist, but you can

330
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be You're not allowed to be a hero, but you

331
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can definitely be a hero for this, you know, for

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the the pets of the regime kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Well, and that's the what is it like, that's their

334
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their their founding. I don't want to say they're founding myth,

335
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but yeah, they're founding myth. They're founding myth.

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Speaker 1: Is the Civil Rights Act in nineteen sixty five.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty work completing

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the work that was begun in you know, nineteen thirty

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nine with going to Europe to save Europe from you know,

340
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the evil Meani past. And obviously, like like all religious stories, right,

341
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it gets read back into the entirety of history, you know, obviously,

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00:24:04,839 --> 00:24:10,759
like I'm not obviously it's a false religion. We're all

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seeing it's it's it's a false creed. It's not true,

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but it doesn't it doesn't have to be true to

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be a religion, right. A religion is just something that's

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done repetitively in a reverent way. The Christian religion is

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a religion, but it is not the only one, regardless.

348
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I don't want to go too far down that one,

349
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but but yeah, it's it's it's pretty much the same thing, right.

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And a regime lives and dies off of its ability

351
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to maintain legitimacy. And you know, there's there's I'm not

352
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going to go into that, but suffice it to say,

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within the Europe of the eleventh century, the legitimacy of

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all civil authorities was based upon their adherence to the

355
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religion of Jesus Christ and to their you know, to

356
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a lesser or greater extent, their good graces to the

357
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,880
Church of Jesus Christ. Now, the Church of Jesus Christ

358
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was not as of yet synonymous with the papacy as

359
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an institution. However, it was trending that way, right And

360
00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:25,680
and you know, because you know, with the conquest of

361
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the seas of Alexandria, and Antioch by which were the

362
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two because the I think Rome was one of three

363
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initially that were the three highest one it was Rome,

364
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Alexandria and Antioch, those were the three highest. But when

365
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Antioch and Alexandria were conquered by the Muslims and subjugated,

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that left only Rome. Now, later on the Byzantines would

367
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,000
claim Contentinople was just as high, but you know that's

368
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a later innovation, and a lot of people in the

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West didn't really care to live under what the Greeks

370
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had to say about it. But by the papacy claiming

371
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,960
that it had the right to select the priests throughout

372
00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:17,480
the priests, the bishop's, heads of monasteries, anything, this created

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a significant political tension with the Holy Roman Empire, and

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this caused something that would then later be called the

375
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investiture controversy. All right, So the Gregorian reforms done with

376
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,279
good intentions, done initially to and there was another reason

377
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:43,200
behind the Gregorian reforms. The papacy. You know, from the

378
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,880
initial foundation, you know, it wasn't always what it sees

379
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,079
itself as now. But the papacy had started becoming a

380
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,200
sort of autonomous thing with a little bit of temporal

381
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,839
authority within the center of Italy, but it also had

382
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:04,519
this open door to this sovereignty, this this ultimate sovereignty

383
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,079
overall nations. Being the head of the Church, right, you know,

384
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,920
the Vicar of Christ, the arbiter of you know, the

385
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,480
meant meant to the you know, in a good read,

386
00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:19,440
to keep the peace amongst Christian nations and to resolve

387
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:24,480
disputes between them. But that wasn't as affirmed of a

388
00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:28,519
legal concept yet. The pope did not want to be

389
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,119
subordinate to the emperor the same way that the patriarch

390
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,079
of Constantinople was subordinate to the Byzantine Emperor, because there

391
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,559
was this different like like, this different ideal of the

392
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,759
legal authority in that the papacy could be the final authority,

393
00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:48,359
the sovereign above sovereigns, the way Jesus Christ is the

394
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,799
king of kings. The papacy can be the sovereignty above sovereignties.

395
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,160
And the Gregorian reforms is what really starts formalizing this

396
00:27:57,599 --> 00:28:01,599
legal conception of what role the papacy can play within

397
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:08,319
the geopolitics of Christian nations within the West. It was

398
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:15,400
not something that the emperor was too happy about. For

399
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,000
a variety of reasons. But first and foremost, because this

400
00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:23,920
created this question of sovereignty. Right, the pope and the

401
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,000
emperor were the two pillars that held up the Christian

402
00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:31,640
world system. The pope was the spiritual authority, the religious authority,

403
00:28:31,759 --> 00:28:37,279
the moral authority, and the legal authority because law, all law,

404
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:44,400
comes from what that society sees as God, right, which

405
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,160
I guess, unfortunately means that law in the United States

406
00:28:48,359 --> 00:28:51,759
sees we the people as God because that is where

407
00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:57,680
it derives its authority. Although some may argue the so

408
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,279
help us God is where they derive their authority. So

409
00:29:00,599 --> 00:29:02,359
you know, maybe there's more than one way to read it,

410
00:29:05,799 --> 00:29:08,640
and maybe that can be decided by a future American

411
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:15,119
sovereign later on, hopefully for the better. But the empire

412
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:21,160
was the political authority, the military authority, the you know,

413
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,680
the civil authority, right like the implementation you know, the

414
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,079
way that NATO is the stick that keeps people in line,

415
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:35,480
is the alliance that you know protects the protects the consensus,

416
00:29:35,559 --> 00:29:38,720
the legal order is the same way the emperor protects

417
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:45,759
the pope in theory. But when the pope in the

418
00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:50,200
papacy decided to start, you know, exercising more influence over

419
00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:57,079
how the church functioned outside of Italy. The Emperor did

420
00:29:57,079 --> 00:29:58,960
not like that at all. So this caused you know,

421
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:02,599
the invested your contra, which was as you know, if

422
00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:04,200
you if you look it up, it was a it

423
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,599
was a conflict between the Empire and the Pope over

424
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,240
who could appoint bishops. Very specifically, there was more than

425
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,400
one investiture controversy. There was you know, one in England,

426
00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:22,880
but you know, in essence it it there was there

427
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,000
was like was like like the the Emperor would march

428
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,680
armies into Italy to intimidate the Pope, and the and

429
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:36,839
the Pope would release condemnations of the Emperor. And you know,

430
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,000
Henry the fourth had his very you know famous crawling

431
00:30:40,039 --> 00:30:43,359
through the snow on his knees for seven days to

432
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:49,079
get forgiveness after the Pope excommunicated him. And there was

433
00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:52,680
some more that there's some more, but that it ends

434
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,599
in eleven twenty two with what's called the Concordat of Verms, right.

435
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,160
The Concordat of Verms was a sort of agreement right

436
00:31:02,359 --> 00:31:09,240
that basically stated that while every bishop appointed must swear

437
00:31:09,359 --> 00:31:12,519
an oath of loyalty to the civil authority in the

438
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,799
area where that bishop was appointed. The Church has complete

439
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,400
authority over who gets appointed as bishop, right, So bishops, yeah,

440
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:22,920
if you get appointed, you have to swear an oath

441
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:27,960
of loyalty. But the Church gets to decide. The Church

442
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:37,799
gets to decide who is appointed. And you know, this

443
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,319
was a net gain in authority for the papacy and

444
00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:43,960
a net loss and authority of the Holy Roman Empire,

445
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:50,519
and it would only continue as time went on. Now,

446
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,400
prior to this, the emperor was doing things like like

447
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,000
Henry the third was doing things like marching into Rome

448
00:31:59,079 --> 00:32:02,319
finding three post hopes after Now that was admittedly that

449
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,720
was because of Benedict the Ninths. You know, if you

450
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,240
look up Benedict the ninth you'll you'll see what I'm

451
00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:14,400
talking about. He was kind of a reprehensible person, but

452
00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:16,960
he sold the pay PC various times. There were three points,

453
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,759
and so Henry the second marched in put an end

454
00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:24,839
to that. But he installed a papal candidate that he wanted.

455
00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:28,279
And so obviously there was some reason for the papacy

456
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,960
to fear what the Holy Roman Empire was going to do,

457
00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:35,200
what the emperors were going to do in relation to

458
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,359
the papacy, in relation to you know, politics, interfering with

459
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,920
what you know, the papacy beliefs should be a separate

460
00:32:43,079 --> 00:32:47,039
moral arm from civil affairs, as opposed to what happens

461
00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:53,119
in the Byzantine Empire. But the concord out of Verms

462
00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:56,920
decided enough of a piece for this controversy to be

463
00:32:57,039 --> 00:33:00,079
resolved for a time. It would flare up later on,

464
00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:05,880
and but you know, the empire didn't really regain ground.

465
00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:11,000
But there was this this really bad habit as I

466
00:33:11,079 --> 00:33:15,200
mentioned previously, of you know, Emperor Henry the third marches

467
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:21,240
into Rome and basically kicks out three three people all

468
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,039
claiming their pope and just installs his own candidate, you know,

469
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,640
with with totally political authority. Right, this sets a very

470
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,400
dangerous precedent because this was this was this was something

471
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,400
that any emperor you know, was like like the the

472
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,559
idea of anti pope's right, you know, of of you know,

473
00:33:41,039 --> 00:33:43,960
claiming the illegitimacy of a papal election and having a

474
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,680
whole bunch of like plucked cardinals that magically appear somewhere

475
00:33:48,839 --> 00:33:51,000
declare that you are in fact the real pope and

476
00:33:51,039 --> 00:33:54,480
then going to an emperor who has a vested interests

477
00:33:54,519 --> 00:33:56,920
or or another civil authority who has a vested interest

478
00:33:57,039 --> 00:33:59,599
in installing you as pope and saying that the current

479
00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:03,640
pope is legitimate, and it really it leaves hanging open

480
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,960
the center of all of this. The center of all

481
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:12,719
of this is to understand that this crisis, this conflict

482
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:18,559
between the pope and the emperor, was who is the sovereign?

483
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:24,039
Who is the sovereign? Who is the Emperor the highest

484
00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:27,000
sovereign because he's the highest civil authority and is like

485
00:34:27,039 --> 00:34:30,000
the businessing empire where the Pope is under him, like

486
00:34:30,039 --> 00:34:33,360
the patriarch is under the you know, under the businesting emperor,

487
00:34:34,079 --> 00:34:37,400
or is the papacy with this legal theory that they

488
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,960
have claiming just as Christ is above all of the

489
00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:46,440
nations of Europe, is the papacy this sovereignty of sovereignties?

490
00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:49,719
Is it this international authority? And if it is this

491
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:55,039
international authority, must it preserve a sense of not only independence,

492
00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,400
but in some cases supremacy in even possibly a political circacumstance,

493
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:05,159
or at least independence in a political circumstance over the

494
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,280
various kings and sovereigns and civil principalities of Europe, including

495
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:14,079
the Holy Roman Empire and so the popes. The popes

496
00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:16,159
did believe that they possessed this power. They had what

497
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,440
was called what was it papal depict It was like

498
00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:24,480
papal depositionary power, like the pope reserved the right, you know,

499
00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:31,360
to to declare any ruler of Europe unfit for ruling

500
00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:34,679
due to their lack of adherence with the Christian faith,

501
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,599
with the faith of Christ. This was done, you know,

502
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,760
very famously to Henry the fourth, I mentioned by by

503
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,960
Gregory the seventh. Gregory the seventh, you know, demonstrated it,

504
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:50,239
and Henry the fourth you know, believed it like you know,

505
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:56,639
they because almost like medieval society was based on bonds

506
00:35:56,639 --> 00:36:01,119
of loyalty, and that's how government was conducted, of oaths,

507
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:07,719
things like that, contracts, and so if a higher authority,

508
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,119
which every ruler knew that he was loyal to first,

509
00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:13,320
which was the Church and the faith of Christ through it,

510
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,760
if the Church declared that, or the head of the

511
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,320
Church on behalf of the Church declared that a man

512
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,639
who's above you but below the Church is unfit, well

513
00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:29,079
then you have every justifiable legal right to not pay

514
00:36:29,159 --> 00:36:33,480
him taxes or not give him levies or everything like that.

515
00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:36,639
So this was a real thing within the paradigm. You know,

516
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,400
there was some belief within you know, some were a

517
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,320
lot of belief within the Christendom world system that the

518
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,840
Pope did in fact have this authority that you know

519
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,000
a lot of Now the Holy Roman Empire, of course,

520
00:36:50,519 --> 00:36:54,360
disputed this authority to a certain extent. But Henry the

521
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:59,000
Fourth supplicated himself. And I think Henry the fourth was

522
00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:02,719
from the von Veld dynasty. I'm gonna fact check check

523
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:11,159
myself real quick, just to just to make sure, no problem, Yeah,

524
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:12,440
because I want to I want to make sure I

525
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,119
get this right. Or was he a Salien? I think

526
00:37:15,159 --> 00:37:17,679
he was. I think he was of the Saliens, But

527
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,559
that that'll be important later. The reason I'm checking out

528
00:37:20,639 --> 00:37:23,400
is is it'll it'll be important a little bit after that.

529
00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:28,239
But you know, it was it. But then when when

530
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:33,400
when Frederick Barbarossa, Frederick Barbarossa more brazenly opposed the authority

531
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,920
of the pope, and that's why he was declared he

532
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,400
was He was excommunicated by Pope Alexander the Third, and

533
00:37:39,559 --> 00:37:43,760
his I think was his successor, Frederick the Second, who

534
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,159
was even more just blatantly anti Pope papal authority. A

535
00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:49,800
matter of fact, a lot of people, you know, accused

536
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,119
Frederick the second of being secretly Muslim because his whole

537
00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:58,239
bodyguard was made of Muslims from Sicily. Two different popes,

538
00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:03,000
you know, declared him unfit to rule, Gregory the ninth

539
00:38:03,039 --> 00:38:07,760
and Innocent the fourth, and you know, of course that

540
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,800
didn't that didn't really do much immediately. But like, and

541
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,480
you can see the thing, right, like the first time

542
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,639
it's declared by Gregory the second, the seventh, Henry the

543
00:38:17,679 --> 00:38:21,079
fourth crawls on his hands and knees with sackcloth and

544
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:23,800
ashes through the snow and Tuscany for the pope to

545
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,519
forgive him, right, this sort of humiliation that he goes

546
00:38:26,559 --> 00:38:29,679
through himself. But the next couple of times, it's kind

547
00:38:29,679 --> 00:38:35,679
of it loses its moral power because you know, the emperor,

548
00:38:36,079 --> 00:38:38,920
for whatever reason, starts asking the question, all right, well,

549
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,800
you know, it's like it's like stalin the pope, how

550
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,599
many divisions does he have? You know? And this is

551
00:38:44,639 --> 00:38:48,679
a this is a significant reality because the Holy Roman Empire,

552
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,039
especially if it's an empire an emperor like Frederick the second,

553
00:38:52,559 --> 00:38:56,920
you know, who doesn't much care for spiritual matters. You

554
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,519
could just, you know, you could just go in and

555
00:38:58,599 --> 00:39:04,679
just you know, fabricate some opponent, some counter claimant, and

556
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,039
marches armies into Rome and depose the pope and put

557
00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:17,559
a new pope you know, which actually was it was.

558
00:39:17,679 --> 00:39:20,159
It brings me to it. It brings me to an interesting

559
00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:27,480
transition because this was exactly done, but not by the emperor.

560
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,159
All right. Someone got this idea in their head that

561
00:39:32,199 --> 00:39:34,840
they could just at some point just seize the pope

562
00:39:35,559 --> 00:39:41,519
and just declare a new papacy. And someone absolutely did,

563
00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:48,159
except it wasn't the Emperor. So I haven't talked a

564
00:39:48,159 --> 00:39:49,719
lot about the king I don't think I've mentioned the

565
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:56,679
Kingdom of France at all since this started. But the

566
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:02,199
Kingdom of France was a competing power within Europe to

567
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,000
the Holy Roon Empire. It was theoretically under the eldest

568
00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:06,599
daughter of the Church. It was under the authority of

569
00:40:06,639 --> 00:40:10,360
the papacy, but it was a separate geopolitical power, with

570
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,639
separate interests, with separate you know, claims to Charlemagne and

571
00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:23,199
and things like that. So what happened was right, uh,

572
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:28,840
Suffice it to say, a pope was locked up and

573
00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:32,159
all of a sudden, all of these, you know, it

574
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,519
is all these, all these cardinals appear that claimed that

575
00:40:35,559 --> 00:40:38,280
this that the that the I think it was. It

576
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,440
was Urban the seventh, That's what it was. Urban the

577
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,840
seventh was locked up, claimed illegitimate, and I think they

578
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,599
kept him locked up till he uh he died. And

579
00:40:48,639 --> 00:40:51,719
then all of the sudden that the papacy now exists

580
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,679
in Avignon, which is in France, and these French cardinals

581
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,400
keep getting selected to be pope. Who are you know,

582
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,960
in alliance with French interests. Now, of course there's still

583
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,039
a papacy in Rome because they didn't get rid of

584
00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:08,079
the cardinals that were in Rome. And so this creates

585
00:41:08,119 --> 00:41:10,199
what was called the Western Schism, which lasted from about

586
00:41:10,199 --> 00:41:18,320
thirteen seventy eight through fourteen seventeen, which you know, confused

587
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,320
the heck out of everyone because now all this was

588
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:26,639
a significant crisis because now temporal powers were meddling in

589
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,639
the papacy to such nicknaw, the papacy did have this authority,

590
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:34,400
and by this growing papal authority, outside powers were more

591
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:39,760
tempted to start meddling with its functions. But it wasn't

592
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:41,840
The Holy run Empire ended up doing it. It was the

593
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:47,000
Kingdom of France. And so you know, when you have

594
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,920
one civil authority claiming that the papacy, you know, having

595
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,199
the papacy moved to within the borders of that territory,

596
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,480
having all of these you know, French cardinals elected pope,

597
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,239
and basically having the papacy exist as as much the

598
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,320
same way that the Patriarch of Constantinople does, this whole

599
00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:13,280
world system goes into into a crisis of legitimacy, because

600
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,000
the question is it's like, okay, well, if the pope

601
00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:19,400
is not sovereign of sovereigns to the point where a

602
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,840
civil authority can just kind of come in and claim

603
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,800
that the pope is theirs. Now with some level of

604
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,760
legal legitimacy, what's to stop every Western European country from

605
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,079
declaring their own pope, from having their own head of

606
00:42:35,119 --> 00:42:38,639
the church, from having their own you know, and then

607
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,239
seeking to conquer the other ones because you know, they

608
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,880
of course have the righteous apostolic successor to the faith,

609
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,360
and for there to be a Western empire much the

610
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,079
same way. Now, Buzanteum was kind of in kind of

611
00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:58,599
in decline at this point. So and this this did

612
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:04,880
cause a lot of you know matter, a lot of

613
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,880
you know, what we're called heretics, but a lot of

614
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,719
the there was a lot of discontentment in the in

615
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,000
the spiritual realm with the state of how the Catholic

616
00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:17,679
Church was was operating at this time because of you know,

617
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,400
now right righteously, you know, at least from their perspective,

618
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,119
the papacy was attempting to secure itself outside of the

619
00:43:26,159 --> 00:43:32,920
authority of these civil powers. But by trying to maintain

620
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:38,199
their independence and by trying to to continue to be

621
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,119
this sort of arbiter, this mediator, this authority over authorities,

622
00:43:42,119 --> 00:43:49,280
this sovereign over sovereigns, the Church became very politicized, and

623
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,079
a lot of the more was a lot of them,

624
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,360
I'm speaking very generally here, but broadly speaking, a lot

625
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,920
of now outside of outside of you know, the Gregorian

626
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:03,480
Reformation and the and the you know, and the Benedictine

627
00:44:03,519 --> 00:44:06,519
Reformation and the Franciscan Reformation and the Dominican Reformation, with

628
00:44:06,599 --> 00:44:08,880
all these you know, where these monastic orders were kind

629
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,599
of established to pursue these things that sort of existed

630
00:44:12,639 --> 00:44:16,320
as like a parallel hierarchy to the actual church hierarchy.

631
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:25,840
Besides that, much of the same moral issues. By the way,

632
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,079
I forgot to mention that the Gregorian Reforms is also

633
00:44:28,159 --> 00:44:32,440
what established a clerical celibacy as a doctrine. Prior to that,

634
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,119
it wasn't really a thing, and it was actually very

635
00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:37,920
controversial when it was first passed, but it won out.

636
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,119
But you know, precisely because that was a doctrine, it

637
00:44:44,159 --> 00:44:49,360
was even the more glaringly obvious when various priests in

638
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,159
Italy and elsewhere were keeping you know, you know, had

639
00:44:53,199 --> 00:44:56,920
had women that were very clearly you know, their mistresses,

640
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,480
their relations. Right now. Of course this wasn't all popes,

641
00:44:59,519 --> 00:45:02,119
but you know, whenever you dip your toes too much

642
00:45:02,159 --> 00:45:05,119
within the political side. Not to say engaging in politics

643
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,599
is bad, but when you start pursuing politics more and

644
00:45:07,639 --> 00:45:11,599
more and more, especially if you're a religious institution, you

645
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:17,280
start neglecting your you know, you start neglecting some other things.

646
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,639
Right now, there was legitimate issue with this within the

647
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,679
within the Catholic Church, which is you know where the

648
00:45:27,199 --> 00:45:30,199
Concilier movement comes in, right this is this is the

649
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:34,320
Conciliar movement. It kind of began around the thirteen hundreds,

650
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,239
goes into the fifteen hundreds, but it's sort of in

651
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,079
reaction with the Western schism, in which you have one

652
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:41,400
pope and Avignon, you have one pope in Roman, and

653
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,480
then later on you have a pope in like Pisa

654
00:45:44,119 --> 00:45:46,119
or something like that. You know, there's like another pope

655
00:45:46,159 --> 00:45:49,199
in Italy. Right, so there's there first there was two.

656
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,239
There's one pope and there's two popes, and there's three popes, right,

657
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,159
and everyone's confused, and one pope's excommunicating the other and

658
00:45:56,199 --> 00:45:59,480
the other one's excommunicating the other one. And like peasants

659
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,599
throughout your people throughout Europe, nobles throughout Europe are like

660
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,880
the moral order is in chaos. It's like, well, wait

661
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,280
a minute, which pope is the real pope? Which one

662
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,159
is the and and they were these were real questions.

663
00:46:11,159 --> 00:46:15,880
These were serious questions because you know, if if one

664
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,239
pope excommunicated this ruler of this realm because whatever reason,

665
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,320
but the other pope didn't. Well, if if the ruler

666
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:32,760
was excommunicated, every subject underneath them was excommunicated. And so

667
00:46:33,079 --> 00:46:35,800
this is you can see this sort of and this

668
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,360
it's this terrified people because you know then as now,

669
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,880
no one wants to go to hell, No one wants

670
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:48,000
to no one wants to burn eternally, right, and if

671
00:46:48,039 --> 00:46:50,199
it's something your ruler did, you don't want to pay

672
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,039
for that consequence. And that's why it was such a

673
00:46:53,039 --> 00:46:58,920
powerful thing within that paradigm. So regardless, regardless, like, there

674
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,880
were significant efforts within the Catholic Church to reform this,

675
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,960
specifically with the Conciliar movement from about the thirteen hundreds

676
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,800
to the fifteen hundred, there was this alternative legal theory

677
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:15,159
that was put in contrast to the popes, floated by

678
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,719
by I think it was it William of Auckham was

679
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,480
one of the people who came up with something like it.

680
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,079
But a lot of these monastic, these more monastic Catholics

681
00:47:24,079 --> 00:47:28,280
floated this idea, right was they wanted to go back

682
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,599
to the early church, right, the early Church? How the

683
00:47:32,639 --> 00:47:35,039
early church function? How did the early church function? Well,

684
00:47:35,079 --> 00:47:39,880
the early Church function primarily through church councils, through meetings

685
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,079
of bishops. This you know, the Council of Nicea, the

686
00:47:42,119 --> 00:47:47,400
Council of Chalcedon, the Council of of you know, Constantinople,

687
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,039
the Council there's very all of these councils, right, all

688
00:47:51,639 --> 00:47:56,320
of these church councils that you know, decided things that

689
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,239
were as significant as the Nicene Creed, which is the

690
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,440
summary of the christ in faith, the composition of the Bible,

691
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,199
which was all the various books that are included. You know.

692
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,079
For the Protestants it's like I think sixty six, for

693
00:48:09,119 --> 00:48:14,079
the Catholics it's I think seventy two something like that,

694
00:48:14,119 --> 00:48:15,960
you know. But like all of that was decided at

695
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:26,280
a church council, you know. And so seeing the some

696
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,760
of the downsides of this legal theory that had been

697
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,719
put forth that the pope can be the sovereign over sovereigns,

698
00:48:32,039 --> 00:48:35,639
many within the Catholic Church wanted to create either in

699
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,159
much the same way that the papacy created these various

700
00:48:39,199 --> 00:48:44,840
parallel monastic hierarchies. They wanted to create a parallel church

701
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,079
council of some way that's either completely outside the pope

702
00:48:48,119 --> 00:48:54,000
or in some radicals even put it forth as as

703
00:48:54,360 --> 00:49:03,920
against the pope. And I mean this, this, this, this,

704
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,239
this went far enough too, I think it was. It

705
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,960
was the Council of Basil was the high point of

706
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:14,760
this where they were significantly considering something like this. But

707
00:49:15,119 --> 00:49:20,800
it it fell apart, and you know, in the in

708
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,440
the after court, it kind of bringing, and this kind

709
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,800
of brings us very nicely comfortably up to the to

710
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:31,519
the quote unquote present within our little series. But in

711
00:49:31,599 --> 00:49:36,360
about fifteen seventeen, at the fifth Latteran Council, papal supremacy

712
00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:42,679
was firmly and completely legally entrenched and held as a

713
00:49:42,679 --> 00:49:49,440
dogma of the Catholic Church. So that kind of brings

714
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,000
me to the end of what I had to talk about.

715
00:49:52,039 --> 00:49:54,079
I mean, it's a it's it's brief. I could have

716
00:49:54,119 --> 00:49:59,519
spent whole episodes on any single one of those, and

717
00:49:59,559 --> 00:50:01,679
I didn't get to talk about the Gelves and the

718
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,800
I'll throw the Gelves and the Giblings in real quick,

719
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:05,280
I mean the Galps and the Giblings, which some of

720
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,840
you all may be familiar, was mostly limited to the

721
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,760
Italian peninsula, and it had more to do with the

722
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,159
authority of the Emperor versus the Pope. Although the Galps

723
00:50:14,199 --> 00:50:16,280
and the Ghiblings is the most famous example of it,

724
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,440
there were two. There was one during the first Investiture controversy,

725
00:50:20,519 --> 00:50:24,639
which ended as as soon as Henry the Fourth or

726
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:26,480
as soon as the conquered out of Verms was signed,

727
00:50:26,519 --> 00:50:29,199
but the second phase, which lasted from twelve sixteen to

728
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:35,719
thirteen ninety two was much much longer, and it had

729
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,000
a lot more to do with this idea of Italian autonomy,

730
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,159
because even within Italy, a lot of the Italian states

731
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,960
didn't like the path the Papacy was taking, most notably Venice.

732
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,599
Venice very much disliked this legal this legal doctrine that

733
00:50:52,639 --> 00:50:56,320
the papacy was attempting to attempting to implement the papacy

734
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,840
as sovereign of sovereigns because you know, in Italy, all

735
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,719
of these you know, the Italians, their city states, they've

736
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,199
always been very autonomous. They don't like it when outsiders

737
00:51:07,199 --> 00:51:11,599
of any kind kind of interfere with the formation, with

738
00:51:11,679 --> 00:51:15,840
the functioning of their own city. But it also kind

739
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,960
of became a microcosm of these, you know, specifically with

740
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,599
the supporters of two dynasties, the von velf dynasty, which

741
00:51:24,639 --> 00:51:29,320
were you know, a holy Roman imperial family which based

742
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,719
its legitimacy off of complete and total submission to the Pope,

743
00:51:35,119 --> 00:51:38,440
and the affirmation of this legal of this legal theory

744
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,719
that the pap that the Papacy was putting forward of

745
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:45,280
papal supremacy versus the von Honstaufens, which was Frederick the

746
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,679
first Frederick the second, which was more of the Byzantine

747
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:55,119
style imperial superiority over the papacy. And you know that,

748
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,159
you know, various Italian families and city states kind of

749
00:51:58,199 --> 00:52:02,320
cast their you know, Dante talks about it. It they

750
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,840
cast their side on one or the other. But you know,

751
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:13,079
the conflict ends when the Hoenschaufins die off completely. And yeah,

752
00:52:13,119 --> 00:52:16,159
I mean it's it's it's it's just it's the most

753
00:52:17,039 --> 00:52:18,800
and and and really with the with the death of

754
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,239
the hoen Chaufen dynasty, the Holy Roman Empire's grip not

755
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,039
only on you know, the like the story of this

756
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,599
is the Empire kind of bleeding authority, hemorrhaging authority to

757
00:52:31,679 --> 00:52:36,199
the pope in Italy. When when the hollen Schaufen dynasty died,

758
00:52:36,599 --> 00:52:41,360
the Holy Roman Empire their grip on Italy weakened permanently.

759
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,760
Italy was now under the Empire pretty much in Enamel.

760
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,440
And you know, this sets the stage for the for

761
00:52:51,519 --> 00:52:55,320
the Renaissance and the Condottieri and and the topic for

762
00:52:55,519 --> 00:52:57,239
the next episode we'll be talking about, which is the

763
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:04,039
Italian Wars, because France conquers Naples around this time, or

764
00:53:04,079 --> 00:53:05,840
at least a French noble. I think it was Charles

765
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:12,760
of Anjou conquers Naples and which establishes this Angevin claim

766
00:53:13,639 --> 00:53:16,519
on or and I don't think I'm using that correctly.

767
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:22,039
This this French claim, this, this, this, this Capecian claim,

768
00:53:22,039 --> 00:53:25,159
that's much better. This Capecian claim on Naples, and through

769
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,840
Naples the rest of Italy, which will actually, you know,

770
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,960
be conflicted by the Holy Reman Empire, which Spain will

771
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,840
later get involved in as it comes into its own.

772
00:53:38,159 --> 00:53:41,119
But yeah, I believe that's the I believe that's everything. Yeah,

773
00:53:41,159 --> 00:53:43,639
so this is you know, a lot. I know we're

774
00:53:43,679 --> 00:53:46,960
not talking about we weren't talking about Spain. But it's

775
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:52,079
important to kind of understand all of this because this

776
00:53:52,199 --> 00:53:57,119
crisis that occurred within the sixteenth and seventeenth century. You

777
00:53:57,159 --> 00:54:02,960
don't have a crisis like this without centuries of disputes

778
00:54:03,039 --> 00:54:07,679
of differing sort of legal theories, of differing ideas as

779
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:11,280
to how nations and world systems should be set up.

780
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,199
And so I think it's very important that the listeners

781
00:54:15,199 --> 00:54:20,840
at least have an idea as to what was because

782
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,679
with the Italian Wars episode, I'm gonna need to find

783
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:24,960
a way to explain why Charles the Fifth sax Rome

784
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:30,599
in fifteen twenty seven, you know, so, and this doesn't

785
00:54:30,639 --> 00:54:33,440
go away, you know, even though, you know, as time

786
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,320
goes on, especially as the Protestant Reformation occurs, and the

787
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,639
papacy and the Empire are kind of pushed into the

788
00:54:39,639 --> 00:54:44,559
same camp for the final for the remaining century or

789
00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:48,280
so of the Christendom world system and it's terminal crisis point.

790
00:54:49,519 --> 00:54:52,440
Excuse me, it's important, I think for the listeners to

791
00:54:52,559 --> 00:54:55,519
understand what led to this in the first place.

792
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that was a good overview and really

793
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:10,800
goes to show how how much people were eager to

794
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:15,480
centralize power into themselves, especially when it came to the

795
00:55:15,599 --> 00:55:18,679
authority of the church. Yes, which is why, which is

796
00:55:18,679 --> 00:55:22,519
why it ended up having to centralize itself in one

797
00:55:22,559 --> 00:55:24,440
location exactly.

798
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,159
Speaker 2: And I mean, and the thing with it is too, right,

799
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,440
is it wasn't It wasn't done. This is this thing

800
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,000
that needs to be understood, right, you know, the centralization

801
00:55:34,119 --> 00:55:41,119
of power is never done entirely through if the majority,

802
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:45,480
through dark ambition, right, It's done as in a lot

803
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,239
of instances, it's done as a reaction. It's done as

804
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:55,199
an attempt to shore up you know protection. You know,

805
00:55:55,320 --> 00:56:00,440
the papacy was very right to fear that they might

806
00:56:00,599 --> 00:56:03,960
become little more than a lap dog of the empire.

807
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,079
They created much that I keep I keep making the comparison,

808
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,079
but much the same way that the Orthodox Church in

809
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:16,840
Constantinople was, you know, and there were you know there

810
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:25,559
it's it's it really is, you know, centralizing authority. You know, yes,

811
00:56:25,679 --> 00:56:30,360
you can. There's always a little bit of dark ambition there, always,

812
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:36,360
but it's never entirely, if in very rarely, the majority

813
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,039
the reason why something like that happens, you know, And

814
00:56:39,199 --> 00:56:42,599
that's something I want people to keep conscious of. It's

815
00:56:42,679 --> 00:56:46,239
just it's kind of like before you even realize that

816
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,519
the machine has gotten away from you, and the worst

817
00:56:49,639 --> 00:56:52,960
kinds of people from the outside have recognized what it is,

818
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,679
or who were hiding behind you in the inside the

819
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:58,679
whole time, have recognized what it is and what it

820
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,880
can do for them, and because they thrive in those

821
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,679
types of environments, they've they've out maneuvered you. And now

822
00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:08,119
this thing that you love, that you were trying to protect,

823
00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:11,760
has become something you don't even recognize. And that was

824
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:16,000
the feeling that many, many, many within within and outside

825
00:57:16,079 --> 00:57:19,079
the Catholic Church had about it, you know, and many

826
00:57:19,119 --> 00:57:21,920
of them stayed within it to try to reform it

827
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,440
and try to you know, as the Protestant Reformation happened,

828
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,840
many many dissidents, you know, Erasmus is a great example,

829
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,519
stayed within the church because they wanted to reform it.

830
00:57:31,599 --> 00:57:34,360
And of course many made the schism, made the break

831
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,280
and went outside of it to try to reform it

832
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,800
from the outsider, the foundation of a new church. And

833
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,800
you know, it's it's it's you know, I don't know,

834
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,800
it's it's the only thing that can be said about

835
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:46,880
it is it's a tragedy because a great many people

836
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:51,159
died because of because of dark ambition and you know,

837
00:57:51,519 --> 00:57:56,360
political hunger, hunger for too much power, in all of these.

838
00:57:56,199 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: Other things, many such cases, many such case. All right, well,

839
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:05,880
we got to break because we got to go to

840
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,599
do we got a meeting to get ready to do.

841
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:09,559
Speaker 2: We do it more.

842
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 1: Why don't you do that plug and we'll get out

843
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:13,079
of here.

844
00:58:13,159 --> 00:58:19,199
Speaker 2: Of course, of course, yes. If if there's some conceivable

845
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:22,960
world where you've been listening to the Pete Kenyone show

846
00:58:23,039 --> 00:58:26,559
for this long and you have not attempted to get

847
00:58:26,599 --> 00:58:29,159
involved with the Old Glory Club. I don't know what

848
00:58:29,239 --> 00:58:32,800
to say to you at this point, Like, I mean,

849
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,039
maybe you've got to burn your hand on the stove

850
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,760
twenty six times before you figure it out, all right,

851
00:58:39,039 --> 00:58:41,639
I guess so, But please get involved with the Old

852
00:58:41,639 --> 00:58:47,679
Glory Club. It's very much a project that Pete and

853
00:58:47,679 --> 00:58:49,599
I really do. I don't want to speak on your behalf,

854
00:58:49,639 --> 00:58:51,880
but you know we do really believe in and think

855
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,039
it can do great work for our guys. Ever since

856
00:58:55,039 --> 00:58:58,159
this Hurricane Helene relief, we've had people from all across

857
00:58:58,199 --> 00:59:03,079
the country getting involved, going into the zone, getting involved

858
00:59:03,079 --> 00:59:06,480
with chapters, sending money, donating all of these other things,

859
00:59:06,519 --> 00:59:10,760
and it's just it's amazing to see and we want

860
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,440
all of you to be a part of it, because,

861
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,400
as I've said before, the window is closing for the

862
00:59:16,519 --> 00:59:21,599
rider dies for the first founders, because you know, once

863
00:59:21,599 --> 00:59:25,159
we have some things going on behind the scenes get

864
00:59:25,159 --> 00:59:28,119
figured out, right, there's going to be a firm break

865
00:59:28,199 --> 00:59:30,480
between the people who were here on the ground floor

866
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,320
and the people who were the ones who came after

867
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:36,519
we had already built it, right, So you don't want

868
00:59:36,559 --> 00:59:39,079
to be an Ellis islander or a fringing' You know,

869
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,000
you want to be an old stock American. You want

870
00:59:42,039 --> 00:59:45,159
to be someone who shows up to the frontier to

871
00:59:45,199 --> 00:59:47,159
help do some work. And hey, shoot, it's better to

872
00:59:47,199 --> 00:59:50,719
show up in eighteen twenty than in eighteen eighty, you

873
00:59:50,719 --> 00:59:54,719
know what I'm saying. Right, So, if you if you've

874
00:59:54,719 --> 00:59:57,079
been on the fence and you hear this, now this

875
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:02,159
is your this is your call involved, you know, because

876
01:00:02,199 --> 01:00:04,639
pretty soon it will be much harder for you to

877
01:00:04,679 --> 01:00:07,280
get involved than it is now. That's all I gotta say.

878
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:08,599
Speaker 3: Yep.

879
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: And as as we're saying this, I just got a

880
01:00:12,039 --> 01:00:16,239
notification from the group that Melon who's on the ground

881
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:20,440
is looking for help, especially people who are handy with

882
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,800
the chainsaw. So just to let you know, we got

883
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,599
people on the ground there and they're gonna be We're

884
01:00:26,599 --> 01:00:28,519
gonna have people on the ground there until this gets

885
01:00:28,639 --> 01:00:33,119
until this gets settled, then that could be a while.

886
01:00:33,199 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 2: It's gonna be so, but we have contacts on the ground.

887
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:38,039
If you want to go up there, get in touch

888
01:00:38,079 --> 01:00:40,039
with us, we'll make sure you get set up. Otherwise,

889
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:44,599
get involved, support us and all that. And listen to

890
01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:47,079
mister Peach Show. Listen all of those other episodes. He

891
01:00:47,119 --> 01:00:47,840
does great work.

892
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:50,639
Speaker 1: Thanks Paul, take care.

893
01:00:51,199 --> 01:00:51,559
Speaker 2: Likewise,