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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them, Geesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good evening. If you want a view into the world
Speaker 5: that lies behind the Ted Bundy murders. This last work
Speaker 5: in a series of six books on Bundy is definitely
Speaker 5: for you. For within these pages you'll read of the
Speaker 5: many questions still surrounding this fascinating an intricate case, as
Speaker 5: well as the answers that are only now being provided here.
Speaker 5: There's so much more to learn and new information is
Speaker 5: still surfacing about Bundy, his victims, and his potential victims.
Speaker 5: As such, there is new testimony, including from those who
Speaker 5: had a brush with the killer and others who played
Speaker 5: their own roles in this multi state case. In this book,
Speaker 5: Bundy Case detective Jerry Thompson of Salt Lake City, Utah
Speaker 5: and Don Patchen of Tallahassee, Florida talk about their personal
Speaker 5: experiences with Bundy. So does Ron Holmes, the Louisville criminologist
Speaker 5: who worked with the killer towards the end of his life.
Speaker 5: Also included are official reports that have rarely been viewed
Speaker 5: outside of the archives, along with the author's commentary to
Speaker 5: guide readers through them. And last, but not least, is
Speaker 5: Bundy's final confession to Utah detective Dennis Couch, just hours
Speaker 5: prior to Bundy's execution. In it, Bundy reveals startling facts
Speaker 5: and sparks addtional questions. I must read for those true
Speaker 5: crime readers fascinated by America's most enigmatic and infamous serial killer.
Speaker 5: The book that we're featuring this evening is the Enigma
Speaker 5: of Ted Bundy, The Questions and Controversies surrounding America's most
Speaker 5: infamous serial killer, with my special guest journalist and author,
Speaker 5: the world's resident expert on Ted Bundy, Kevin Sullivan. Thank
Speaker 5: you so much for this interview and welcome back to
Speaker 5: the program.
Speaker 6: Kevin Sullivan, Well, thanks Sam for having me back. I
Speaker 6: know we always have a great time when we talk
Speaker 6: about Ted Bundy, another killer, so I expect it to
Speaker 6: be an excellent show.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, it's always fascinating talking to you about Ted Bundy,
Speaker 5: and I am marvel as many people do. I imagine
Speaker 5: that there is never too much information about Ted Bundy.
Speaker 5: And you have provided once again some surprising and incredible
Speaker 5: new information. And it's like reading a brand new case.
Speaker 5: It's incredible. Tell us with this book as you write
Speaker 5: what you were tackling. You're tackling a number of questions, speculations,
Speaker 5: and controversies that have surrounded the Ted Bundy case for
Speaker 5: many years. What are you adding with this book? What
Speaker 5: specifically is in this For those Ted Bundy fanatics and
Speaker 5: for those that have read the previous six Ted Bundy
Speaker 5: books that you've written.
Speaker 6: Sure, well you know this sixth book, The Enigma of
Speaker 6: Ted Bundy, is a culmination of a series of six books,
Speaker 6: holding over fourteen hundred pages. And I really believe that
Speaker 6: that was going to be the last book that I
Speaker 6: would write. But keep getting new information coming to me
Speaker 6: all the time, and so I'm gathering even more information now.
Speaker 6: But the thing, and I figured, you know, and all
Speaker 6: the people that read my books agree with it, why
Speaker 6: should I receive the information and let it sit in
Speaker 6: my file drawers. So as as stuff comes to me,
Speaker 6: I'll be publishing things in the future. But this, this
Speaker 6: last book of the main six books, I wanted to
Speaker 6: do something a little different. I wanted to create a
Speaker 6: book that could tackle a lot of the questions and
Speaker 6: controversies about Bundy, cover the types of things that you
Speaker 6: can't cover when you're writing. For example, when I wrote
Speaker 6: my flagship book, The Biography of Ted Bundy, The Bundy Murders,
Speaker 6: a comprehensive history, and then the companion Biumes that I've
Speaker 6: had since then, you could do, you know a little
Speaker 6: bit in there. But I wanted a enigma to really
Speaker 6: just focus on some things that were that had not
Speaker 6: been covered before. And that's one of the reasons why
Speaker 6: I added the transcripts that I had originally UH done
Speaker 6: of the interviews of Don Paxson, Jerry Thompson and Ron
Speaker 6: Holmes back in two thousand and seven. In two thousand
Speaker 6: and eight, when I was doing research for my book
Speaker 6: The Bundy Murders. Now I had not listened to these
Speaker 6: tapes for a long time. It dated in many years,
Speaker 6: and of course The Bundy Murders, the first edition came
Speaker 6: out in two thousand and nine. It was re released
Speaker 6: as an updated expanded verse April twenty twenty but I
Speaker 6: had quoted from these men, not just from those tapes
Speaker 6: a little bit, but I've had so many conversations with them,
Speaker 6: off Dake, I've quoted from them in the book The
Speaker 6: Bundye Murders. But back and listen to these books, these
Speaker 6: these tapes, and I turned them into transcripts for the book,
Speaker 6: and it was almost like listening to them for the
Speaker 6: first time. And I thought, this is going to be
Speaker 6: really great for the reader to get down into print
Speaker 6: for Enigma, because, for example, Jerry Thompson passed away, uh
Speaker 6: about a year and a half ago, and and and
Speaker 6: and then my Holmes is gone as well. So I
Speaker 6: was wanting to do that. So I wanted to get
Speaker 6: a lot of things in there, look at look at
Speaker 6: Bundy from a number of angles, as well as we
Speaker 6: produced some of the case file material that that most
Speaker 6: people will never be able to read, and then had
Speaker 6: commentary along, you know with that. So I wanted to
Speaker 6: make Enigma rather unique. And as I went through the book,
Speaker 6: and as I finished the book, I think I was
Speaker 6: successful in doing so.
Speaker 5: Right, It's also fascinating you talked, you just talked about
Speaker 5: these files, but they're the supplementary reports. So we're actually
Speaker 5: reading some of the things that people could read, police
Speaker 5: officers could read if they had access at that time.
Speaker 5: And it's fascinating. You start with the an officer receives
Speaker 5: a call from Chief Anderson and a Mitchell, a mister
Speaker 5: Richard Man and called and said his daughter Margaret had
Speaker 5: some information about the Bundy case. Just to demonstrate this,
Speaker 5: this is the opening supplementary report. Tell us, tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about this supplementary report and what the
Speaker 5: DA his daughter Margaret was reporting about Bundy specifically.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, Margaret Maun lived at Plast sixty five, first
Speaker 6: ever in Salt Lake City, and she and she knew
Speaker 6: Kid well and she in I think I quote her
Speaker 6: a couple of times in the supplementary reports that I've
Speaker 6: added in different places. But but but Man, when she
Speaker 6: was interviewed by the all the detectives, she noted at
Speaker 6: the passenger seat on Bundy's Volkswagen would rock back and forth.
Speaker 6: And of course the reason for that, and the investigators
Speaker 6: knew this after they learned that Bundy was constantly taking
Speaker 6: that passenger seat out and putting it back in and
Speaker 6: doing so he he kind of tight fitting aspect of
Speaker 6: it was gone, and she said she used to have
Speaker 6: to hold on that that seat would rock back and forth.
Speaker 6: But Marburn knew him. She liked Bundy. Her father was
Speaker 6: on the as I recalled, the State Supreme Court of Utah,
Speaker 6: and after Bundy got in trouble, she had to he
Speaker 6: had to recuse himself because obviously he had met Bundy
Speaker 6: and had some dealings with him, and of course knew
Speaker 6: him through through his daughter. But if you read her testimony,
Speaker 6: it's just very interesting and what these people knew who
Speaker 6: knew Bundy either hunted him and had dealing with him,
Speaker 6: or you know, we're friends with him. It really is
Speaker 6: a window into, you know, Bundy's life and what came forth.
Speaker 6: And there's another thing that I was wanting to do
Speaker 6: in those supplementary reports when I wrote to Bundy Murders,
Speaker 6: I included just a portion of the cat and mouse
Speaker 6: thing that that Bundy had with the Seattle cops when
Speaker 6: he had gone home from Utah in December of my
Speaker 6: seventy five, having been released from from jail on bail,
Speaker 6: and they knew Bundy was coming and they tracked him
Speaker 6: and they surveiled him for a couple of months before
Speaker 6: he went back home. That went over so well. People
Speaker 6: loved that so much. From the Bundy Murders that I included,
Speaker 6: I didn't use them all. I included the rest of
Speaker 6: those in other Companion buyings. Well, when I was doing Enigma,
Speaker 6: I thought, I want to add the surveillance tapes of Utah,
Speaker 6: of the Utah cops, and so I've got those in
Speaker 6: there too. But you'll but you'll find in these supplementary reports.
Speaker 6: I'll tell you one thing really great about them. When
Speaker 6: I was writing The Bundy Murders and I was dealing with, uh,
Speaker 6: the official records. What you do when you're writing narrative
Speaker 6: non fiction, you're telling a story, you don't you don't
Speaker 6: replicate the reports. You write your story based on what's
Speaker 6: in the reports, and then you can add squibs here
Speaker 6: or there of the reports. That's just normal. But I
Speaker 6: remember when I was writing, you know, the Money Murders,
Speaker 6: I thought, this is it would be so great if
Speaker 6: people could see the full reports. And so, you know,
Speaker 6: you can't do that when you're writing something like biography,
Speaker 6: it's just got done.
Speaker 5: But in the.
Speaker 6: Companion volumes, you were able to bring some of that
Speaker 6: out with commentary, like for this for me, if to
Speaker 6: somebody else. I've read other supplementary reports and other people's
Speaker 6: books on about Bundy, but other things, and the people
Speaker 6: will the author will speak about something and say here's
Speaker 6: a report on that or whatever. So it's very very interesting. Thus,
Speaker 6: when you look back at this thing, what's an enigma
Speaker 6: about Margaret Man Her father's in a position in the
Speaker 6: court system they had to recuse himself later, and just
Speaker 6: what she says about dealing with Bundy. It just it's
Speaker 6: a great window into what happened during that time.
Speaker 5: You talk about a great window. You actually have the
Speaker 5: starting in September seventh, seventy five. You have it talks
Speaker 5: about the interview of Elizabeth Klopfer, and everybody knows who
Speaker 5: that is in terms of Ted Bundy and talks like
Speaker 5: she works at the University of Washington Medical Institute. Tell
Speaker 5: us this a little bit about what was very interesting
Speaker 5: when you did having written all these books and then
Speaker 5: you saw the actual supplementary reports. What was most interesting
Speaker 5: or fascinating or stood out for when you reviewed those
Speaker 5: actual supplemented reports, the police interaction and phone calls with Elizabeth.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, I included I think about the entire thing,
Speaker 6: and I've touched on that before. And I remember when
Speaker 6: when I was interviewing uh, Jerry Thompson. Uh. In fact,
Speaker 6: Jerry was just he was just really a great guy.
Speaker 6: He was always helpful. You know. I had two faiths
Speaker 6: to face interviews and interviews with him, which were quite
Speaker 6: substantial interviews both times, and yet we talked on the
Speaker 6: phone as other times we emailed each other. He always
Speaker 6: gave like, like I like to say, additional clarification when
Speaker 6: I stumbled on something and I needed to know more.
Speaker 6: And so many things came out with Jerry, you know
Speaker 6: about these various interviews you did with people, and as
Speaker 6: well as Liz, and you know, he said she was
Speaker 6: extremely nice and and none of the investment the gators
Speaker 6: were really upset with her that she kind of bounced
Speaker 6: back and forth with Bundy or hoping he's not him,
Speaker 6: and then believing that he probably is, thinking no, it
Speaker 6: couldn't be. So the detectives kind of understood what kind
Speaker 6: of quandary that she was in. But those interviews that
Speaker 6: they did with her were very eye opening as to
Speaker 6: the nature of Bundy. And if you look at what
Speaker 6: she had to say to these detectives and she would
Speaker 6: end up having great, great guilt for them because she
Speaker 6: was just she would be in these periods. She'd think
Speaker 6: she'd get back around Bundy, and well, he just can't
Speaker 6: be and then she'd have guilt for having talked to
Speaker 6: the cops. And I remember when she admitted the Bundy
Speaker 6: that she did I vote in the Bundy murders. That
Speaker 6: must have been like having a knife in the gut
Speaker 6: for him to hear that she actually talked with him.
Speaker 6: But but yeah, but she was honest, and but she was,
Speaker 6: you know, just she was very forthright with with them,
Speaker 6: Jerry and some other uh this deal and I of,
Speaker 6: you know, bountful. They flew up the theatre and met
Speaker 6: at the I believe the king County Ted passport Ted
Speaker 6: Task Force office where you know Kepple was. So they
Speaker 6: had this great interview and it wouldn't be the last time.
Speaker 6: And I remember in one of the interviews, I think
Speaker 6: the one that I happened in Enigma, she's got she's
Speaker 6: asking questions. She's not just answering questions, but she's asking questions.
Speaker 6: And you know, she heard about a rapist in the
Speaker 6: avenues and Bundy in the vernacular of the day, it's
Speaker 6: not how people. Thank God, it's d that people talk now.
Speaker 6: But then they tried to blame it on what he
Speaker 6: said was returned people that around the corner. Probably a
Speaker 6: good chance it was Blundy committing some of these rapes.
Speaker 6: It may not be, but it's real funny that he
Speaker 6: lived in the avenues and these things were going on,
Speaker 6: and so I guess there were occasions where Bundy would
Speaker 6: he has suspected anyway of raping some people, but maybe
Speaker 6: not murdering them when it was rape only. But most
Speaker 6: of his activity with women, as you will know, it
Speaker 6: had to do with murder, and because that's why he
Speaker 6: enjoyed so much. And of course from then it was
Speaker 6: it was the necrophilia. So the avenue's rapist insult Lake
Speaker 6: City might not be Blundy, but he was certainly suspected
Speaker 6: of it, and she talked about that. She was very
Speaker 6: concerned that he might be involved in it. So anyway,
Speaker 6: but they're very interesting interviews.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's interesting to you say what she was asking questions.
Speaker 5: She was asking if all the items were in a bag,
Speaker 5: because he has explained to her that he wore the
Speaker 5: ski mask to keep his ear he's warm while shoveling snow.
Speaker 5: But then she, I guess was suspicious of that, so
Speaker 5: she asked them about that. But they got a lot
Speaker 5: of information from her, didn't they about the fig about
Speaker 5: the mustache. That was established a lot of I mean,
Speaker 5: a lot of things were established from her. It was
Speaker 5: amazing really reading that.
Speaker 6: Oh. Absolutely. They showed her the picture of the murder
Speaker 6: kit that was the same one that was in my home.
Speaker 6: And she recognized the statuel, and she recognized the ski
Speaker 6: mask and a few of the other items. I don't
Speaker 6: think she had seen the ice pick or some other things.
Speaker 6: And Bundy did have an excuse. I remember Ross Davis
Speaker 6: had told investigators that one time when Bundy's car broke down,
Speaker 6: he did use the rope to pull Bundy's car that
Speaker 6: that Bundy had, and Bundy was trying to make excuses
Speaker 6: as to why he would have all this stuff. Of course,
Speaker 6: you take a look at what he had in this bag.
Speaker 6: I mean, it just this isn't for what he said
Speaker 6: it was, although he could use them for in some
Speaker 6: cases some some other things. But she said, some of
Speaker 6: the stuff I've seen, and then she named it and
Speaker 6: other stuff that I haven't seen. But he and She
Speaker 6: also mentioned in there that she had a type of
Speaker 6: what was a tire tool, a job over handle, you know,
Speaker 6: I know, yeah, you know what was that the one
Speaker 6: where she said Bundy wrapped it, wrapped it and he
Speaker 6: had wrapped it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but so
Speaker 6: so so anyway, and I remember Thompson said in the interview,
Speaker 6: he said, well, I'd like to see that before we
Speaker 6: go back, So I'm assuming that she showed it to him.
Speaker 6: But yeah, and so, you know, she she was very forthright,
Speaker 6: and uh, you know, Jerry said an interesting, interesting thing.
Speaker 6: He said, I can't tell you like some things that
Speaker 6: she wanted to know. He said, I want to back,
Speaker 6: and he said, not only can I not tell you,
Speaker 6: I can't even tell anybody like the in the department
Speaker 6: except for my partner. Just himming right, and his partner
Speaker 6: that was it because he didn't want the stuff information
Speaker 6: getting out, even to the other cops, because they may
Speaker 6: start talking about it then. So he said, Jerry was
Speaker 6: the kind of guy that he was no nonsense, and
Speaker 6: he could be funny and stuff like that, but he
Speaker 6: was no nonsense and he would shoot straight with you,
Speaker 6: and he wouldn't lie to you, and he was just
Speaker 6: gonna tell it like it is. And he didn't put
Speaker 6: up with bs from people, and he would call them
Speaker 6: out on it. So he was a really straight shooter.
Speaker 6: He had a really interesting way of speaking to if
Speaker 6: you could ever hear him on tape, we've got like
Speaker 6: a clipped way of speaking, but he was just he
Speaker 6: had like an interesting accent. But in any event, those
Speaker 6: were really, really, really great interviews. And of course you
Speaker 6: take that and he's like everything that we know and
Speaker 6: all these other reports, and throughout my six books you'll
Speaker 6: find a lot of the really what I call important
Speaker 6: supplementary reports and along with commentary, and it just gives
Speaker 6: people a window into saying, I know, I wrote in
Speaker 6: one of my books, I think it might have been
Speaker 6: I don't know if the TRAILFT had one of one
Speaker 6: of them, but I said, these reports that were put
Speaker 6: together by the detectives, the investigators, I mean, in the
Speaker 6: back of their head, they may have known that what
Speaker 6: years and years from now, somebody could see them, but
Speaker 6: they really weren't really thinking about that very much. Because
Speaker 6: in these reports they would occasionally insult certain people and
Speaker 6: they put it in print, which makes it really interesting
Speaker 6: for the researchers and the writers that come out later
Speaker 6: and put that stuff out. And I've got a couple
Speaker 6: places in several places in Enigma, but in one of
Speaker 6: the other books where it talks about and I mentioned
Speaker 6: it in the commentary how they came out. But if
Speaker 6: you look at and said these things, and they just
Speaker 6: it was like else humor, And I say, I make
Speaker 6: mention that this is no different than they would you know,
Speaker 6: comment to each other about and make jokes about. So
Speaker 6: they would have these things sometimes to the record. We
Speaker 6: think in terms of now being public, you know, you think,
Speaker 6: oh my gosh, that they wish they could go back
Speaker 6: and remove that. But but the record is extremely interesting,
Speaker 6: and that's why I try to put some of the
Speaker 6: record in my pod Companion Biomes, I should say, Fortuno Encyclopedia. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. It's also interesting how cooperative she really is at
Speaker 5: for the most part, very cooperative, especially when they're asking
Speaker 5: her things that they think is very relevant. But it
Speaker 5: would be so difficult for her to answer. And those
Speaker 5: are questions about his sex, their sex life, and and
Speaker 5: his voclivities per se.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, well she was very open about it, and
Speaker 6: you know, at one point she said I remember Thompson
Speaker 6: said to her, he said, you know, was Bundy the
Speaker 6: kind of person that could, you know, go one after
Speaker 6: the other over and over and over. And she said, well,
Speaker 6: you know when we first met, but you know, after
Speaker 6: we were together six years, after a while, he was
Speaker 6: just normal. And he said, okay, yeah, he said, I
Speaker 6: understand that. But yeah. The the investigators looked at Liz
Speaker 6: as someone who was trying to do the right thing
Speaker 6: and having difficulty. But the thing people need to understand
Speaker 6: about Liz is that when the rubber was meeting the road,
Speaker 6: she was still going to do what she thought was right.
Speaker 6: When she had the momentary doubts about Bundy, it wasn't
Speaker 6: volitionally she said, I'm going to be obstinate to the
Speaker 6: cops because I'm going to I'm going to defend Bundy.
Speaker 6: She wasn't one of the folks that were going to
Speaker 6: defend somebody that she thought was guilty. So even though
Speaker 6: she had struggles, you know, even though when she got
Speaker 6: around Bundy she could feel that pool to think, oh,
Speaker 6: I must be wrong about this. He couldn't be doing
Speaker 6: all these things. He's too loving, he's too nice. But
Speaker 6: I remember in one of the reports that I had
Speaker 6: in one of my books. The investigator said that Liz's
Speaker 6: back on bund besides, and she's not getting cooperative. But
Speaker 6: even they understood what was going on. They understood that
Speaker 6: she had come forward. She had told them a lot.
Speaker 6: She was vacillating, but not vacillating because she wanted to.
Speaker 6: She was vacillating between the possibilities of his guilt and
Speaker 6: the possibilities of his innocence. And if he was innocent,
Speaker 6: she's doing him a great injustice. And this is important too.
Speaker 6: She felt like if he was innocent, that some of
Speaker 6: the things that she was saying about Bundy, she could
Speaker 6: harm him in his future together with her of not
Speaker 6: just being able to be a lawyer, but but going
Speaker 6: into politics because she thought that he is innocent, and
Speaker 6: this turns out to be someone else. Look what I've
Speaker 6: done to his reputation. So she dealt with a lot,
Speaker 6: and a lot of people judge lives, and I think
Speaker 6: in ways that they shouldn't by being flippant about this.
Speaker 6: You know, she should have this automatically and never gone
Speaker 6: back on it. Just figured out it was them. And boy,
Speaker 6: it's always it's always easy to speak for somebody else's
Speaker 6: life and not your own. But when you're in the
Speaker 6: midst of something that's so emotional. And after all, she
Speaker 6: loved Bundy, and she thought Bundy loves her, and in
Speaker 6: a way there only a psychopath can I suppose he
Speaker 6: did that It was not the kind of love that
Speaker 6: normal people would well, but the bottom line is she
Speaker 6: had a rough time, and I think in the end
Speaker 6: investigators understood it.
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Speaker 5: Now, we talked about Elizabeth Clopper's cooperation with police. Let's
Speaker 5: talk about.
Speaker 6: Some of the.
Speaker 5: Issues that you deal with uniquely in this book. Specifically
Speaker 5: when you talk about Bundy and victims. Janus Ott adducted
Speaker 5: July fourteenth, nineteen seventy four, and there's an issue about
Speaker 5: the park and returning to convince Denise Nasalin to go
Speaker 5: with him as well. You discuss a couple of these
Speaker 5: issues in this book. Maybe you can expound upon that
Speaker 5: issue and tell us what you believe now and what
Speaker 5: you're trying to explain in this book regarding that issue.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think what you're referring to is his nighttime
Speaker 6: attacks daylight and then back in the night. Is that
Speaker 6: what you're referring to? Yes, okay, good. You know, having
Speaker 6: been immersed in this case for so many years now
Speaker 6: and having interview the kind of people I've interviewed, gone
Speaker 6: over the case files, just thousands of thousands of thousands
Speaker 6: of case files, and writing about this man in this case,
Speaker 6: you get to know it really well, and there's a
Speaker 6: lot of things that start to gel. There's been times
Speaker 6: in the past when I have made speculations about what
Speaker 6: may have happened, although we didn't know the answer any
Speaker 6: only later come to find out somebody would contact me,
Speaker 6: like Lorraine Fargo did Last Bird and to speak with
Speaker 6: Keaby books. She confirmed two of them, and so I
Speaker 6: never try to speculat in books except I want to
Speaker 6: do speculation in Enigma, and the type of speculation that's
Speaker 6: based on a lot, as far as I'm concerned, circumstantial evidence. Again,
Speaker 6: I did this before in a place in the Bundye
Speaker 6: Mersey and when I'm in Forego contacted me after the
Speaker 6: Bundye Mersey was published, and she said, well, you were
Speaker 6: right about both those things and here's why. So it
Speaker 6: was confirmed. Now when I was speaking at I been
Speaker 6: invited to speak at the at the Kinge University in
Speaker 6: Pittsburgh in September of twenty nineteen. What I do when
Speaker 6: I get information or I've come to a place where
Speaker 6: I've made a decision about something Bundy likely did, I
Speaker 6: won't announce that publicly. I'll wait for the book to
Speaker 6: come in print. However, I had deduced from my investigations
Speaker 6: of Bundy that it was clear that he started attacking
Speaker 6: woman at night, and then it comes to July fourteen,
Speaker 6: were going to it deeper. It was a bold daylight
Speaker 6: of abduction, and he went back into nighttime things. So
Speaker 6: when that Ducaine at the circ Killer conference, I spoke
Speaker 6: about this for the first time, I knew it was
Speaker 6: going to end up putting it in print. I didn't
Speaker 6: know when, didn't know how. And then later when Enigma
Speaker 6: came uh, I decided to do Enigma, it went in there.
Speaker 6: But basically it was this when when Bundy first started
Speaker 6: and Bundy never talked about this, and to my knowledge,
Speaker 6: the investigators never never proceed this angle at all, not
Speaker 6: anywhere in the record, not with anyone I've ever talked to. However,
Speaker 6: when Bundy first did you know, we know he did
Speaker 6: the the Karen Sparks thing where he got into her
Speaker 6: unlock the apartment in the middle of the night. He
Speaker 6: might call it three hours of the morning, the middle
Speaker 6: of the night. And then she didn't die. So his
Speaker 6: next victim, Laura Ann Healey, probably gather between two and
Speaker 6: four a m. That's roughly the time that he likely
Speaker 6: did this. Karen scavellm went to bed. I actually said
Speaker 6: she was escaped out one month thirty. He wasn't in
Speaker 6: the half at that time, but he came in a daughter. Now,
Speaker 6: all of these were nighttime abductions until that we know
Speaker 6: of the ones we know about only nighttime abductions. Now
Speaker 6: that that was his comfort zone, and I speak about
Speaker 6: this in the Bumbe murders. That was his comfort zone
Speaker 6: and that would take him a while before he would
Speaker 6: get the daylight attacks. And I didn't cover him in
Speaker 6: the Bundy murders. About what I'm really saying here. And
Speaker 6: he's first spotted that we know of on the campus
Speaker 6: of Central Washington State College in Ellensburg in the afternoon
Speaker 6: hunting that nobody really knows it in the afternoon, but
Speaker 6: doesn't obtain a victim. He did obtain his victim at
Speaker 6: around ten thirty on April seventeenth. It was there on
Speaker 6: a couple of days, and he got Susan Rancourt on
Speaker 6: April seventeen, nineteen seventy four. It was, of course, it
Speaker 6: was dark. It was around ten thirty PM. And I
Speaker 6: put in enigma the times of sundown and the times
Speaker 6: that he got his victims. Now, when we get to jail,
Speaker 6: this is how it basically maintained. He maintained this man
Speaker 6: time stuff for the most part of the ones. We
Speaker 6: know that come July fourteenth, nineteen seventy four, he did
Speaker 6: something he had never done, and that was he went
Speaker 6: to Lakesomry State Park, which is east of Seattle, and
Speaker 6: there were forty is a beautiful, beautiful day. And I
Speaker 6: went back in twenty fifteen, and I wanted to be
Speaker 6: there on July fourteenth, but I was up in org
Speaker 6: I was down in orb and doing some research and
Speaker 6: I didn't get back back to Washington State. We had
Speaker 6: come down to Washington State and I was at Lakes
Speaker 6: Amison on July fifteenth of twenty fifteen. But that day
Speaker 6: too was beautiful, but there was nobody there but just
Speaker 6: some people. But the day Buddy was. There was forty
Speaker 6: thousand people. There were even companies there having picnics, and
Speaker 6: there was one a police department was having a picnic.
Speaker 6: But he was able to in broad daylight abduct Janisot
Speaker 6: before noon. People saw him, saw at heard conversations, heard
Speaker 6: him say that his name was Ted, she was Janice,
Speaker 6: and he got her. Then he went came back later
Speaker 6: that afternoon after having Janisot likely tied to its tree
Speaker 6: or tied up and sexually assaulted, and then likely tied
Speaker 6: to a tree and gagged, and then he came back
Speaker 6: and got Denise Maslin around four point thirty. However, Bundy
Speaker 6: never talked about it, and the investigators apparently never asked
Speaker 6: him about it. To my knowledge, that he must have
Speaker 6: been bothered by all the attention that he brought on
Speaker 6: himself during those double daylight abductions. Frankly, between you and me,
Speaker 6: even though he wasn't satiated with Aunt, Bunny was so
Speaker 6: arrogant by this point of thinking he could get away
Speaker 6: with everything. And it was a much more bolder individual,
Speaker 6: a much bolder individual that I think he was really
Speaker 6: trying to make a statement that day. It was just
Speaker 6: like a boast, and so once he drew all this
Speaker 6: information to him, he wasn't happy about it, obviously.
Speaker 5: And he must have.
Speaker 6: We thought the entire thing because after Lake Samamis, he
Speaker 6: goes back into hunting at night, and this is July
Speaker 6: of nineteen seventy four. So he goes on in Utah
Speaker 6: that September and he's like a kidney candy store. He
Speaker 6: kills four women in a matter of weeks that we
Speaker 6: know of, probably some more, but it would be some more.
Speaker 6: That the bottom line is all at night, it's all
Speaker 6: after sundown. But by the time he gets over to
Speaker 6: I guess it's like April sixth, maybe unless I'm unless
Speaker 6: I'm screen at the date, but I think that Denise
Speaker 6: Ollarison was was April sixth at the check, but it
Speaker 6: was definitely spring. That was the first daylight abduction that
Speaker 6: we know of, and he felt confident to grab her
Speaker 6: in broad daylight, and it was really bold because anybody,
Speaker 6: if he's ever seen, if you could see where it
Speaker 6: was in Grand Junction, it was in a he could
Speaker 6: have easily been spotted in many directions, and he probably
Speaker 6: abducted her whacking her, uh, you know, pulling ahead of
Speaker 6: her far enough and she rolled out with her bike
Speaker 6: and she probably whacked her. He may have not had
Speaker 6: to whack her, maybe convinced her or something. But I
Speaker 6: have a feeling from where she was because she was
Speaker 6: going somewhere. I don't imagine he coaxed her going with him.
Speaker 6: It was probably just a very quick attack. Uh. And
Speaker 6: so that was the first time back, so you know
Speaker 6: he had he had retreated from this daylight thing because
Speaker 6: he'd brought so much ego and gone back into the
Speaker 6: nighttime attacks. I thought that was an interesting observation in
Speaker 6: one that is likely correct, And for me, it's not
Speaker 6: even likely. It's it's all the evidence is there.
Speaker 5: You deal with other things as well, with people's other
Speaker 5: people that have studied this, and their notions about again
Speaker 5: that he wasn't to take out the Kyomega, Florida murders,
Speaker 5: notwithstanding the idea that he was not a random killer
Speaker 5: at sometimes please explain this as you do in the book,
Speaker 5: this notion of random killing and that wasn't done by
Speaker 5: Bundy apparently.
Speaker 6: Well, here's what I have considered and what I've written
Speaker 6: about as far as opportunistic. First of all, Bundy was
Speaker 6: an exceedingly good planner of murder. We all know this.
Speaker 6: He was never better at it than he was in
Speaker 6: Washington State, because he not only was a good planner,
Speaker 6: but he had picked the body dumps from the song
Speaker 6: like that. He was still pretty really good too. In
Speaker 6: Utah he had scanned the areas, he didn't have body
Speaker 6: dumps per se. All his victims there were either discarded
Speaker 6: or buried, and I don't think he had an actual
Speaker 6: dumper he would return to so a bit different in Utah.
Speaker 6: And of course by the time he got to Florida,
Speaker 6: if you look at the Kyle megattacks, they don't even
Speaker 6: appear to be Bundy like, and he was. He had
Speaker 6: been so long since he had killed that it was
Speaker 6: more like like a ram page. It was all that
Speaker 6: pent up murderous energy. But then the leech killing his
Speaker 6: lastic on the little girl in Lake City, they could
Speaker 6: be more like Bunny. But even there he was on
Speaker 6: a downhill slide. But is that basically what what you
Speaker 6: were referring to or or did you have another angle
Speaker 6: that I'm just missing?
Speaker 5: Well, the idea that someone said that it wasn't random,
Speaker 5: but there was, as you mentioned that sometimes it was
Speaker 5: just a matter of he was very organized, but other
Speaker 5: times he was opportunistic and then the hatch to plan
Speaker 5: in a hurry.
Speaker 6: But you know the other idea, absolutely, you're what what
Speaker 6: also was.
Speaker 5: Just some of the other things that you deal with too,
Speaker 5: is that some people have said in the confession and
Speaker 5: I know this is jumping ahead a little bit, but
Speaker 5: and in his confessions he would not mention and would
Speaker 5: admit to certain women's names or girls' names. And you
Speaker 5: again discuss why that might be.
Speaker 6: Oh, oh, certainly, absolutely, Well here's the thing, all right,
Speaker 6: Let's take Bundy alluded to some things when he was
Speaker 6: working with Steve in the show and Hugh Aine's work,
Speaker 6: and well, of course they are the authors, are the
Speaker 6: only living witness. Let me turn their tapes in the book,
Speaker 6: the tapes upon they in the Conversations with a Killer
Speaker 6: and Michell did most of the interactions with him, while
Speaker 6: Hugh when I had went out west and just gathered
Speaker 6: all the information into the investigation, but you had dealings
Speaker 6: with him too. It it's really funny if you look
Speaker 6: in at the Conversations with a Killer, are you you
Speaker 6: know or you're reading it? Hugh ains where he insults Bundy.
Speaker 6: A couple of times, which was really funny. But the
Speaker 6: bottom line is he was seeking the third person. But
Speaker 6: when he got down to his end of life confessions,
Speaker 6: he said, I did this, I did that. However, there
Speaker 6: were still people that he wouldn't talk about, and it
Speaker 6: became clear to me over my years of research that
Speaker 6: by and large it's probably going to have to do
Speaker 6: with not college aged women that he won't talk about,
Speaker 6: but teenage girls or even preteen girls. In one of
Speaker 6: the in one of the tapes Bundy made where he
Speaker 6: was speaking in the third person about a serial killer,
Speaker 6: which he was really talking about himself, he had mentioned
Speaker 6: that this person may have killed that a as either
Speaker 6: said a half a dozen or a dozen really, you know,
Speaker 6: like young girls. And I know that. When he was
Speaker 6: talking with Bob Keppel at the end to cover the
Speaker 6: Washington State murders, Pepple asked him when this started, and
Speaker 6: he did admit that he killed a hitchhiker in Tomwater, Washington,
Speaker 6: which is south of Seattle, but I think about thirty minutes.
Speaker 6: It's south of Seattle, and he had picked her up
Speaker 6: in the murderer and he did not identify her. And
Speaker 6: it's interesting if you look at the conversions of Bundy. Again,
Speaker 6: just like you say, there were certain people he would
Speaker 6: talk about and name, and certain people he wouldn't. And
Speaker 6: the ones that he likely wouldn't are probably those are
Speaker 6: the preteens and teenagers or even preteens. I've got in
Speaker 6: that case Fyle, some people that disappeared in areas where
Speaker 6: Bundy was hunting. Bundy was hunting, and a lot of
Speaker 6: the m seems similar to Bundy. But like in one
Speaker 6: case of the ten year old girl, and they don't,
Speaker 6: they don't, you know, there's just no proving it. But
Speaker 6: but you know, but I interviewed a girl named Michelle
Speaker 6: Coleman Nelson. Nelson's her marry name. Her father was in
Speaker 6: big of h in Walkington State at various TV stations.
Speaker 6: He worked for the newspapers for a while. He just
Speaker 6: had a nice career out there in media. And Bundy
Speaker 6: tried to grab her on her way to school, going
Speaker 6: to her bus stop, and she was like, like, I
Speaker 6: think around twelve and she was just a young kid.
Speaker 6: You can see her picture and come to find out
Speaker 6: through another person that I know is doing Bundy research,
Speaker 6: Bundy tried to get another young girl in almost exactly
Speaker 6: the same area just a number of blocks away, who
Speaker 6: was also young. Now, these are the kind of abductions,
Speaker 6: had they been successful, he wouldn't talk about. So when
Speaker 6: Keppel's talking to him and he admits that he had
Speaker 6: one killing in Tumbwater from the hitch Tucker in seventy three,
Speaker 6: he then says, and there was a homicide in seventy two.
Speaker 6: And as soon as he said it, it was very
Speaker 6: matter of fact, and kepel knew he meant it, pressed
Speaker 6: him on it, but he took it back. He wouldn't
Speaker 6: talk about it. And I personally think, and this is
Speaker 6: something else based on we may never be able to
Speaker 6: prove it. I'm sure we won't, but based on what
Speaker 6: Dundee said, his record and what he would and wouldn't
Speaker 6: talk about except in the third person, it was likely
Speaker 6: a teenage girl or preteen. And if you look at
Speaker 6: the confessions for kepple Fund, he admitted to killing eleven
Speaker 6: in Washington, but he was only named eight and so
Speaker 6: there were three unknown. So why would he hold back
Speaker 6: on that. I think it's likely they were young girls
Speaker 6: and he did want to talk about that same thing.
Speaker 6: In Utah he admitted to Dennis Counts there were eight
Speaker 6: so he only touched on the names of five. So
Speaker 6: who are they? You got a case where he's trying
Speaker 6: to save his life, the murder of women that were
Speaker 6: in college, and he had no trouble talking about them.
Speaker 6: But yet these other people he wouldn't name. Why wouldn't
Speaker 6: he name those? Because he was fighting for his life
Speaker 6: the reason why. And I don't think Bob Kevil talked
Speaker 6: about this and other people. He was just too embarrassed
Speaker 6: to admit it. In other words, his first victim could
Speaker 6: have been Ann ry Burgh, but she was eight. I
Speaker 6: think it's likely that he did that, and I can't
Speaker 6: say everything that I know about it now because I
Speaker 6: got a friend who's doing some research on it. He's
Speaker 6: got some theories and I don't want to talk about it,
Speaker 6: but I think it's likely when he did that when
Speaker 6: we will probably never know for sure. But she was eight,
Speaker 6: So that was his first murder, I believe. But we
Speaker 6: do know that he did kill twelve year old Lynnette
Speaker 6: Culver p Patla, Idaho. He said that he thought she
Speaker 6: was a little bit older, like fourteenth, fifteen maybe, but
Speaker 6: even I mean still, that's not an adult woman. So
Speaker 6: we know that he did. But he had to talk
Speaker 6: about that one. And he also did not want to
Speaker 6: talk much about the Kim Leech murder, which we know
Speaker 6: his last victim of twelve. So the ones that I
Speaker 6: think he's not talking about probably of similar age, but
Speaker 6: likely younger, and those are the ones that he took
Speaker 6: to his great with him. And you could find reports,
Speaker 6: as I said, in my files, I've got reports of girls,
Speaker 6: young girls missing in surrounding states where Oney could have
Speaker 6: operated and likely operated, and you know, and so they're
Speaker 6: there and I see these, knowing what I know, and
Speaker 6: I go, hmm, that could very well be him. Will
Speaker 6: never be able to prove it. So, yeah, it's interesting
Speaker 6: to think of that. Yeah, I don't think it's going
Speaker 6: to be one of those things that we'll be able
Speaker 6: to confirm.
Speaker 5: It's fascinating. The detective Dennis Couch and the final confession,
Speaker 5: Bundy's final confession and things I think that people either
Speaker 5: forget or again it's not so focused on, is the
Speaker 5: holding of victims. And so Dennis Couch actually asked questions
Speaker 5: of Bundy about keeping people like Nancy Wilcox and Melissa Smith.
Speaker 5: So he talked about those and Deborah Kent, and so
Speaker 5: he wanted to know those particulars, and so in this
Speaker 5: book you have some of those particulars about holding some
Speaker 5: of these people like Melissa Smith. And also you talk
Speaker 5: about not only was the apartment and the idea that
Speaker 5: he had to take apartment, but that there was a
Speaker 5: seller that wasn't so well known. So could you tell
Speaker 5: us about that?
Speaker 6: Yeah? Sure, well, yeah, Mike Fisher is the investigator. When
Speaker 6: I was writing The Bunny Murs, I was doing research
Speaker 6: in two thousand and six to two thousand and eight,
Speaker 6: late two thousand and eight, and that's why I chased
Speaker 6: the book. But I really mind research into the Bundy
Speaker 6: Meurs started really in two thousand and five after my
Speaker 6: initial meeting with Jerry, But I had to read all
Speaker 6: the Bundy books and see what was there and all
Speaker 6: that stuff and doing some pullomary stuff. So it was
Speaker 6: like two and anteas. But but it was Mike the
Speaker 6: first told me that he suspected that Bundy had some
Speaker 6: people in this apartment, and he was thinking at the
Speaker 6: time like the twoity room. But I thought, well that's,
Speaker 6: you know, a little bit on the cramp side. I
Speaker 6: don't possible, and I didn't know about the seller, and
Speaker 6: I don't think Mike thought about the Seller reader. I'm
Speaker 6: not sure, but but if you read in the Confessions,
Speaker 6: when I say confessions, Bundy is theorizing about things. And
Speaker 6: when the show talks about carrying something people in and
Speaker 6: out of his apartment, Bundy goes into it and he said,
Speaker 6: you know, it's probably whoever would do something like that,
Speaker 6: carrying something in or out of their apartment or something.
Speaker 6: And then he was basically say, it's almost like crazy,
Speaker 6: but we're not dealing with somebody that was fully rational,
Speaker 6: because he said he just, you know, a course like
Speaker 6: that must think he can walk through walls. So Bundy
Speaker 6: addressed it. There now a lot of people, a lot
Speaker 6: of people have taken great pains to think that he
Speaker 6: didn't do that, and a lot of people just mock it.
Speaker 6: And it's true that there was a seller that after
Speaker 6: I wrote the Bundy bur sometimes sometimes after that, just
Speaker 6: literally a number of years ago, he was the apartment
Speaker 6: manager and he would show apartments. He would do cutting
Speaker 6: in the grass, and he had if you go in
Speaker 6: the back of the house and you're standing there and
Speaker 6: you look to the right, there's a there's a there
Speaker 6: are steps that are covered by a like a little
Speaker 6: lid and there's a lock on it, and you can
Speaker 6: unlock that and go down to the cellar area those
Speaker 6: don't He no doubt had some of his victims down there,
Speaker 6: and I think likely it was probably DeBie Kent and
Speaker 6: maybe Nancy Wilcox, because he had them only for a
Speaker 6: very very short period of time. But he did mean
Speaker 6: I took him up to my apartment. So did he
Speaker 6: take him all the way up to the apartment. Probably not.
Speaker 6: He probably had him there. And I know there's a
Speaker 6: fellow that lives a thou six Faustaveritors that I used
Speaker 6: to hear buddy down there all the time, So it's
Speaker 6: possible he could use the cellar only, but I don't
Speaker 6: think so. I think it's likely, and this would go
Speaker 6: exactly with bun these arrogance and with what he told
Speaker 6: the show. I was discussing this a couple of months
Speaker 6: ago with somebody who's also a researcher, and he thinks
Speaker 6: it was likely just a seller, and I said, but
Speaker 6: if you look at what he said in the show,
Speaker 6: it doesn't appear like it was just the seller at all,
Speaker 6: because I said, I've been there twice to this place,
Speaker 6: and you could pull up at night dark is very dark,
Speaker 6: open up your trunk, which is in the front of
Speaker 6: his car, open up that thing, and just get her
Speaker 6: in there within seconds. I said, if you look at
Speaker 6: what he told the show, it doesn't appear like he's
Speaker 6: talking about something so easy. He's talking about transferring in
Speaker 6: and out of apartments that I said to this person,
Speaker 6: think of the Healy And I wrote this in the book.
Speaker 6: I said, think of the Healy abduction in reverse, where
Speaker 6: he carried them van heely out into a university district,
Speaker 6: carried her out probably we took the blanket throwing over
Speaker 6: her could have been seen by anybody. Kids in the
Speaker 6: university of the districts are coming and going at all
Speaker 6: hours of the night, and it didn't bother bynd it.
Speaker 6: So I said, you know, I've been to this apartment.
Speaker 6: He could have parked on the side of the house, wait,
Speaker 6: make sure that the coast is clear, and go up
Speaker 6: the front steps and up to his room, and he
Speaker 6: would be able to get up there and under a minute,
Speaker 6: even with a body. And I said, if you look
Speaker 6: at what says with Michelle, that's the kind of risk
Speaker 6: that I think he's talking about. And that way because
Speaker 6: he had at least two of his victims for a
Speaker 6: number of days. That would be Melissa Smith and Laura
Speaker 6: and Amy. And I've seen the autopsy photos of Laura
Speaker 6: an Amy. She is Christine. There is no DeKay whatsoever.
Speaker 6: And she was found on Thanksgiving of nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 6: but she was abducted on It was late October thirty first,
Speaker 6: really into the morning November first, and so it wasn't
Speaker 6: freezing there, so her body wasn't frozen. You got some
Speaker 6: really cool nights there, but usually it doesn't go below freezing.
Speaker 6: So this body looked Christine. So where's he going to
Speaker 6: have that body in the cellar the whole time? I
Speaker 6: kind of doubt that he would have liked the comfort
Speaker 6: of his own room. And if you look at what
Speaker 6: he said in the show, it's real clearly talking about
Speaker 6: inside and outside of the apartment. So I told my friend,
Speaker 6: I said, it just for me, it just doesn't gel,
Speaker 6: It just doesn't jail that he would just take him
Speaker 6: down in that cellar, although he probably very much ad
Speaker 6: Smith and Wilcox there. And that's another thing. It's really
Speaker 6: interesting for some reason, and I don't know why Bundy
Speaker 6: did this, he told a totally different story about Wilcox
Speaker 6: to Michelle than he did well, I won't say totally,
Speaker 6: but pretty radically different as to the certain aspects of it.
Speaker 6: And in the Michew thing, he goes back and says
Speaker 6: that I didn't even know she was dead until I
Speaker 6: went back there and spell she was dead. Well, he
Speaker 6: then must have transported her to his home, but doesn't
Speaker 6: elaborate on it. But in the in the confessional couch,
Speaker 6: he admits he took her there, and he admits that
Speaker 6: he took Kent there, and he also admits took her there.
Speaker 6: She wasn't dead, but he killed her, uh obviously there
Speaker 6: and then and then took her remains the next day,
Speaker 6: so he no doubt did happen in the cellar. I
Speaker 6: remember I spoke to Jerry Thompson once about Bundy keeping
Speaker 6: victims there, and he never really thought that he did.
Speaker 6: But the evidence is there from his statements, not just
Speaker 6: to Michau, but you know, to what he said the
Speaker 6: couch at the end, so you know, you can there
Speaker 6: are somebody to say he absolutely did not take them
Speaker 6: up this. You can't say that the moment when you
Speaker 6: say that about somebody like Bundy is the moment you're
Speaker 6: going to get snuggered, because Bundy would do things just
Speaker 6: for the will of it. And he already told Michell
Speaker 6: this is a man that wasn't thinking clearly, it wasn't
Speaker 6: being rational and so anyway, so I think he had
Speaker 6: them in both locations.
Speaker 5: Yeah, let's use this an opportunity to stop for a
Speaker 5: second for these messages. So now we're talking about again
Speaker 5: the idea is that maybe some people don't really know
Speaker 5: the idea that he would keep his victims, he would
Speaker 5: deal with young girls and had an attraction to young girls.
Speaker 5: You also, let's get to what the interviews with Jerry
Speaker 5: Thompson and with Don patchin and with Holmes, Doctor Holmes,
Speaker 5: and so let's talk with Jerry Thompson again. You had
Speaker 5: a special relationship with him. He was instrumental in helping
Speaker 5: you and the information that you got from him was
Speaker 5: again crucial to the creation of the books that about
Speaker 5: Bundy that you have written so far. Let's talk about
Speaker 5: the interview with Jerry Thompson and what you have included
Speaker 5: in this Enigma of Ted Bundy.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was really happy to scrolling that interview excuse
Speaker 6: me into a transcript and bring it to the people
Speaker 6: for posterity. And I remember dealing with Jerry. I've had
Speaker 6: so many dealings with Jerry, so many conversations with him
Speaker 6: off tape, that it was fun finally transcribing what was
Speaker 6: on tape, because a lot of it I had forgotten.
Speaker 6: But Jerry was a very unique fella, as I said before,
Speaker 6: a straight shooter. And I just got it say again,
Speaker 6: all of these investigators that I dealt with were so
Speaker 6: extremely open with me and so extremely nice, and they
Speaker 6: never failed to answer any questions that I had. And
Speaker 6: if you look in the I thought it was really
Speaker 6: interesting if you if you if you look at the
Speaker 6: transcript of the Jerry Thompson tape, I thought it was
Speaker 6: really uh cool when when he talked about when he
Speaker 6: was warning the people and in in Colorado, he said,
Speaker 6: you're not watching him. He said, you know, you're letting
Speaker 6: him go down to the coke machine. And and and
Speaker 6: they would go, oh, Jerry, Dad's not going to do anything.
Speaker 6: We could make him a trustee and and and and
Speaker 6: I said the Bundy murders, I said, I mean, here
Speaker 6: you had a person that was on trial for murder,
Speaker 6: the murder of Karen Campbell and suspected of many murders
Speaker 6: in the Northwest, and ire acting like this guy is
Speaker 6: just he's like a choir boy. He's got oh, he's
Speaker 6: just dead. He just yeah, we can make it a trustee.
Speaker 6: Thompson said, you know, I don't normally carry my service revolve,
Speaker 6: but when I'm there, but he but he basically said,
Speaker 6: but I'm going to start because he's going to do something,
Speaker 6: and if I have to stop him, I'm going to
Speaker 6: That's basically what he said. And he talked about how
Speaker 6: he rubbed it in with him later about that. Look,
Speaker 6: you know, he said, I warned you. I warned you
Speaker 6: what he would do, and now you know this, and
Speaker 6: I remember, Thompson said during the interview he talked about
Speaker 6: later the families of some of the Flora victims contacted
Speaker 6: him and said, do you think we could sue because
Speaker 6: Colorado so failed and and keep it? And they did.
Speaker 6: They did a horrendous job of securing Bundy escape twice.
Speaker 6: Last time he went to Florida. He said, well, I'm
Speaker 6: not an attorney, so you're going to have to deal
Speaker 6: with the attorneys on that. But Jerry told me an
Speaker 6: interesting thing during the day, and he talked about how Bundy.
Speaker 6: He said, you know, Bundy used to call him all
Speaker 6: the time when he was on trial in Utah because
Speaker 6: he was like a co counsel. He was helping in
Speaker 6: his defense. So Thompson said, I talked to him and
Speaker 6: Thompson said, I always would ask him about Debbie Kent,
Speaker 6: and Bundy would end up saying, oh, I don't know
Speaker 6: anything about her, and he would say, oh, yes, you do,
Speaker 6: you know? And then I remember one time and in
Speaker 6: there in the transcript he said, you know, he would
Speaker 6: ask him this all the time. So they had a
Speaker 6: number of conversations that Bundy would call from the jail
Speaker 6: and he'd always bring up Thompson would always bring up
Speaker 6: Debbie can't. And I remember our quartered for the book
Speaker 6: that Bundy murders something that Thompson told me what Bundy
Speaker 6: said at one point that isn't on the transcript because
Speaker 6: we talked about his eyes, We talked about the actions
Speaker 6: of Bundy. We talked about a lot of things off tape,
Speaker 6: and I include the thing in the Bundy murs with
Speaker 6: Thompson said. One day when Bundy called me, Thompson said,
Speaker 6: he said, well, I want to ask you about Debbie,
Speaker 6: and Bunny started laughing. You could hear him laughing through
Speaker 6: the point he said, Oh, Debbie, you'll have to ask
Speaker 6: somebody else about that. You know, he was laughing. So
Speaker 6: this is something that Thompson always again the straight shooter
Speaker 6: that he was, and I think Bundy, I think there
Speaker 6: was a part of Bundy that might have respected that.
Speaker 6: But also Bundy felt such contempt for Thompson because Thompson
Speaker 6: was so instrumental and you know, you know, finding out
Speaker 6: who Bundy was and really bringing him the light in Utah.
Speaker 6: And you know, Bundy's to do the same thing with
Speaker 6: Mike Fisher. You know, he was you know, he respected Mike,
Speaker 6: but he hated the fact that that that he was
Speaker 6: tracking himsel And of course Mike was the first detective
Speaker 6: whoever get I wore a murder place against Bundy. And
Speaker 6: so but anyway, the the transcripts of of uh, of
Speaker 6: Jerry's conversations with me that that interview is very enlightening,
Speaker 6: and I knew people wouldn't you know, want to read it.
Speaker 6: So I'm glad I got that down in the Book
Speaker 6: of Posterity.
Speaker 5: Absolutely his uh you really capture his character in the
Speaker 5: exchange between Ted and Jerry Thompson. It's it's fascinating and
Speaker 5: it's an amazing part of this book. Let's get to
Speaker 5: Florida and Don Patchen is the lead detective in the
Speaker 5: Cayomega murders in Florida, and you met him through Jim Massey.
Speaker 5: And yeah, well Jim Massey, you say, was instrumental introducing
Speaker 5: you to some other important people connected to the case.
Speaker 5: And then you talk about Ron Holmes, the criminologist. So
Speaker 5: maybe we talk about Ron Holmes first and uh and
Speaker 5: his visit to with with Ted Bundy and uh, and
Speaker 5: also about this film interview that fell through. Maybe tell
Speaker 5: us as you write in the book about Ron Holmes,
Speaker 5: his book and that interview.
Speaker 6: It was really interesting. You know, you never know when
Speaker 6: you meet somebody what what the outcome will be. If
Speaker 6: I wouldn't have ever become friends with Jim Massey, I
Speaker 6: would have never written about Bunny. There would be no
Speaker 6: six books, So we wouldn't be talking today. We might
Speaker 6: have been talking at another time about another killer, but
Speaker 6: but we wouldn't have been talking about Ted Buddy. But
Speaker 6: Massey had been friends with with with with with Ron
Speaker 6: Holmes for a number of years and and it was
Speaker 6: through Massy that I met Jerry Thompson and got them
Speaker 6: to bring the murder kid in my home. And that's
Speaker 6: really what started rolling. So he Massey introduced me to
Speaker 6: Jerry Thompson and also introduced me to doctor Al Carlisle
Speaker 6: and uh got me in, talked to Al. Ali said yes,
Speaker 6: I'll speak with Kevin, and sort of that. Mascy also said,
Speaker 6: now I also know Mike Fisher and I know Don Passion.
Speaker 6: I don't have contact information for them anymore, but if
Speaker 6: you locate him, tell him you know me. And I
Speaker 6: did and so and it was also Rome Holmes was
Speaker 6: it was hard. It was very difficult. It's very difficult
Speaker 6: for people to get a appointment to interview homes or
Speaker 6: even speak for homes at the time. Uh. He very
Speaker 6: selected who he talks to. But Nancy and Holmes worked
Speaker 6: together and in fact it Ron Holmes books. You know.
Speaker 6: Ron Holmes was a really known, well known criminologist. He's
Speaker 6: gone now, but he had written books on serial murder
Speaker 6: that a guy named the Birder, and he had also
Speaker 6: written someone with his son, and he's got all these
Speaker 6: academic books, academic books, and he's he's he's well known. Well,
Speaker 6: he got to he got in touch with Bundy back
Speaker 6: in the mid nineteen eighties, and he sent Bundy his
Speaker 6: resume do let him know who he was, and Bundy
Speaker 6: liked Homes, and they got together and Homes went down
Speaker 6: there in the interviewed Bundy all day once from that
Speaker 6: morning in the prison to work for lunch, came back,
Speaker 6: interviewed him throughout the afternoon. And when I was interviewing
Speaker 6: Bob Kepple, Keevill said to me, because Kevile knows Homes,
Speaker 6: he goes bought Holmes was set to be Bundy's golden
Speaker 6: boy back in the mid nineteen eighties, that is, and
Speaker 6: they not had a falling out. Kemble believes that that
Speaker 6: it would be Homes that he would have done all
Speaker 6: his confessing to that they ended up having a falling out.
Speaker 6: There's a couple of theories about that. But what was
Speaker 6: so interesting is that I sat with Jim Massey one
Speaker 6: night long several years before before I was ever decided.
Speaker 6: I mean, I didn't even know I'm going to write
Speaker 6: anying about Bundy. We were having coffee at a restaurant
Speaker 6: one night and Jim Massey brought all these letters that
Speaker 6: Bundy had written Alms. When we're drinking coffee, I said
Speaker 6: that I read all of them. And that other researcher
Speaker 6: that I'm talking about that is currently doing some stuff,
Speaker 6: he's read all the letters from Homes to Bundy, but
Speaker 6: he's never read them ones from Bundy to Home, Notess,
Speaker 6: and I've read them all, I said. Unfortunately, I didn't
Speaker 6: copy those. I didn't make copies of those. I was
Speaker 6: going to do anything with them, and then Massy put
Speaker 6: them back in the storage in several years later, writing
Speaker 6: the Bundy Morse wh couldn't locate him. I still may
Speaker 6: be able to obtain those, even though Holmes is gone,
Speaker 6: and I think I'm going to try. But the bottom
Speaker 6: line is they were scheduled to go down when I
Speaker 6: should say this because they were doing all this. Jim
Speaker 6: Massey traveled to Utah twice and did a lot of
Speaker 6: research concerning the Utahl murders. He also became personal friends
Speaker 6: with the Kent family and with Jimmy and Jim Amy.
Speaker 6: It was really very close friendship between him and Jim Amy.
Speaker 6: And when he was with Jim Amy they were driving
Speaker 6: by where where Laura was found. Jim Amie just blurted out.
Speaker 6: He said, my baby was up there all by herself,
Speaker 6: and like I couldn't do anything to help her. And
Speaker 6: as I said in the book, Jim thinks that my
Speaker 6: friend Jim Nancy thinks that that Jimamie passed away long
Speaker 6: before he should have due to the stress of the
Speaker 6: of the murder of his daughter. But Holmes had had
Speaker 6: a falling out and the two stories on that. But
Speaker 6: what they were going to do. Buddy had been to
Speaker 6: Utah twice, met all these people, met Carlisle, and met Thompson,
Speaker 6: got a real friendship going with all these people back
Speaker 6: in the eighties, back in eat early to mid eighties. Actually,
Speaker 6: I think he might even started the research even before
Speaker 6: Holmes had. I think so, even before Holmes had gotten
Speaker 6: involved with Bundy. But the bottom line is he had
Speaker 6: done all this research, and Holmes always mentioned him in
Speaker 6: his books and said he just Jim contributed so much
Speaker 6: to the research that they had on Bundy's He told
Speaker 6: you murders. Anyway, they were supposed to go down, and
Speaker 6: they were getting all ready to go down, and they
Speaker 6: were going to do another interview of Bundy, and Nascy
Speaker 6: was going to go along and film the interview and
Speaker 6: then they had a falling out and and so that
Speaker 6: never took place. And I know Bundy, will I mean
Speaker 6: that Jim Masthey would have loved having done all this
Speaker 6: investigation into Bundy. They loved to have gone down there
Speaker 6: and chill m that and witnessed that. But but but
Speaker 6: but he never had a chance. And there's two stories
Speaker 6: on what happened there. Holmes told me, when I earth
Speaker 6: another thing, I call Holmes. Twice when I was researching
Speaker 6: the book. I can never get in to see him.
Speaker 6: So Massey said, let me call Ron and I'll get
Speaker 6: you in, and he did. And so Ron was at
Speaker 6: that time he was coroner in Louisville and the officer
Speaker 6: of the Coroner as well as he runs the Southern
Speaker 6: He was a part of the Southern Police Institute here
Speaker 6: in Louisville at the University of Louisville campus, and people
Speaker 6: came from all over to do training and stuff like that.
Speaker 6: For it was kind of like a hub for that.
Speaker 6: But and it's still there. But he would uh. So
Speaker 6: they were set to do all this, and but then
Speaker 6: this falling out occurred, and Holmes told me that the
Speaker 6: falling out had to do it, and This sounds just
Speaker 6: like Bundy had to do with. Bundy was wanting him
Speaker 6: to buy Carol his you know, his wife at that time,
Speaker 6: because he's already married her. Yeah, of course. He added
Speaker 6: that that was at the end of the Leech thing
Speaker 6: because she was going to go back to school. She's
Speaker 6: going to be in graduate school down there in Florida.
Speaker 6: And Holmes said, I'm not going to do that. He said,
Speaker 6: you know, if I'm going to buy anybody in a
Speaker 6: computer she I supposely back then he said, I mean,
Speaker 6: I would do that for one of my kids if
Speaker 6: he wasn't going to do that, And he said that
Speaker 6: was the reason now, and I think it might be
Speaker 6: a combination of both. Frankly, but Nancy told me that
Speaker 6: Holmes had also sent Bundy a magazine ar article he
Speaker 6: had published in like some some federal magazine and had
Speaker 6: talked about Bundy, and that Bundy got irritated about that.
Speaker 6: There was a really good, full length article with pictures
Speaker 6: published in the Little Curry Journal in a magazine section.
Speaker 6: I think back in nineteen eighty six, you know, probably
Speaker 6: maybe nineteen eighty eight. I'm not sure. I'll have to check.
Speaker 6: But but but the following out with that Bundy had
Speaker 6: already occurred and they quote from certain things, and I
Speaker 6: know Bundy was upset about a couple of things. I
Speaker 6: think Bundy wanted his way on stopping Homes, didn't necessarily
Speaker 6: see it that way. So whatever happened, there was this
Speaker 6: falling out and then that never occurred. Now it's true
Speaker 6: even though Keppel said that Homes would have been the
Speaker 6: one of these Donalds confessions too, it would have really
Speaker 6: been one of these deals where it was like Bill Hagman,
Speaker 6: because he was working with Bill Hagman. Bundy was at
Speaker 6: the end and you know, hag My I sat in
Speaker 6: on every confession, but Bundy had to make the confession
Speaker 6: to the States, to the detectives of the States were
Speaker 6: with this happened. But I do believe that Homes would
Speaker 6: have played an even more inspruential part in all of
Speaker 6: this towards the end. So but it's it's it's just
Speaker 6: very interesting. So I, you know, I had to thank
Speaker 6: Jim about getting in with Holmes, and then Holmes knew me,
Speaker 6: you know, we had had that that. It was so
Speaker 6: interesting too, because the phone rang twice while I was
Speaker 6: interviewing Holmes in his office, and the first time it
Speaker 6: was his wife. And each time a call came in,
Speaker 6: I would just flip the off button. I'm recording, I
Speaker 6: say this inn enigma. The second call came in, it
Speaker 6: was Stephen the Show, and I said, had I known
Speaker 6: that was my show? I took funny. I thought that
Speaker 6: was interesting that while I'm there interviewing Holmes about Bundy,
Speaker 6: there comes a call from the show. And so he said,
Speaker 6: I that is Stephen the Show on the phone, and
Speaker 6: I said, oh, okay, he said yeah, he said, we
Speaker 6: took falk occasionally. So anyway, it's just interesting and glad.
Speaker 6: You know. The neat thing about all this is recording
Speaker 6: people while they're alive. And now, you know who if
Speaker 6: we lost Holmes is gone, Lorraine Fargo is gone, Jerry
Speaker 6: Thompson's gone, now, Carlisle's you know. And I won't do
Speaker 6: that many years, you know, in the future, and the
Speaker 6: rest of these people will be gone. So it's recording
Speaker 6: things while there's time. And that's that is the main
Speaker 6: reason why if I wrote at Bunny Nurse, I spent
Speaker 6: years and didn't worry anything about Bundy except to comment
Speaker 6: on that thing or give talk, you know, talk to
Speaker 6: documentary documentarians or do podcasts like with You and all that.
Speaker 6: But I wasn't writing about Bundy. And I remember somebody
Speaker 6: came to me and said, this New York Time's best
Speaker 6: selling author is said, look, why don't we do a
Speaker 6: book together about Bundy having to do with some notice
Speaker 6: he may have couldn't just a really did want to
Speaker 6: do it, and I passed on. I mean, I knew
Speaker 6: we'd make some money, but I just want to do it.
Speaker 6: But then when some people started getting sick, really prominent
Speaker 6: people in the case and one person that passed away,
Speaker 6: I said, this is twenty fifteen. I said, you know,
Speaker 6: if I'm ever going to do a follow up book,
Speaker 6: I need to do it now before more people are gone.
Speaker 6: And that's why I worked at Trailer of ped Bundy,
Speaker 6: and just like the Bundy Marters, a lot of great
Speaker 6: new interviews from valid people that worked with Bundy, and
Speaker 6: of course it just I was so pleased that I
Speaker 6: decided to write that second book but ted Bundy. But
Speaker 6: the Bunny Letters cannot be better than that. I didn't
Speaker 6: write anything, and it's in twenty fifteen I went down
Speaker 6: that other one and the trailer ped Bundy Digging up
Speaker 6: the mPulse than that was publics and then of course
Speaker 6: that started more contacts with me from other people, and
Speaker 6: then it just kind of snowballs from there, and then
Speaker 6: the rest of the is what I call the sixth
Speaker 6: book series.
Speaker 5: It was interesting Ronald Holmes, the criminologist, he concluded, and
Speaker 5: it wasn't again it was hard to say, I would imagine,
Speaker 5: but he said that he identified a fractured identity syndrome
Speaker 5: and he related it to Yes, Anne Marie Burr with
Speaker 5: the content that Bundy killed at fourteen or fifteen years
Speaker 5: of age. Can you explain what he meant by this
Speaker 5: fractured identity syndrome and the event that may have caused that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, speaking with the murder of Anry murder, Bundy always
Speaker 6: denied it except when he talked to Holmes. It is
Speaker 6: absolutely clear he implicated himself in that murder, and you'll
Speaker 6: read that in the Bundy Murs and also some follow
Speaker 6: up books. He implicated himself in it, and Holmes was
Speaker 6: absolutely convinsed that he did it. But Holmes did talk
Speaker 6: about the fractured you know, personality aspect that he said.
Speaker 6: He wrote an article for like one of these federal
Speaker 6: magazines on it, and I think what he is doing.
Speaker 6: He was well aware of the work of herving The
Speaker 6: Mask of Sanity, which was originally published in nineteen I
Speaker 6: think forty one, and quickly at at some point he
Speaker 6: revised that book over the years, and I don't know
Speaker 6: how many revisions it took place, but I remember, like
Speaker 6: they said once that there was the revisions were so
Speaker 6: heavy and at some point it was almost like writing
Speaker 6: a new book. But even Cleckly interviewed Bundy at some
Speaker 6: point apparently, and so at least that's what I was
Speaker 6: told by some other people who should know. But the
Speaker 6: bottom line is this factored identity syndrome. When Holmes was
Speaker 6: talking to me about that, he said, you know there
Speaker 6: were there were people. If this is going to happen,
Speaker 6: it usually happens young in life. Could be uh fauma
Speaker 6: that caused it to happen, And he said, I always
Speaker 6: thought it was very interesting in Holmes said this, you know,
Speaker 6: anything he did kill the Holmes I mean, if he
Speaker 6: did kill Burr. Holmes said that, you know he was
Speaker 6: at fifteen.
Speaker 5: He was off.
Speaker 6: There was exactly fourteen, but he said, you know, at
Speaker 6: the age that most people are thinking about girls and stuff.
Speaker 6: Like that that here's this person with a stractured personality
Speaker 6: thinking about murder, and so it's like him Home said,
Speaker 6: I'm trying to figure out who I am, you know,
Speaker 6: and then this person is already knowing who he is
Speaker 6: in that bad sense, and he's committee murder. So, you know,
Speaker 6: Holmes saw Bundy almost like on another plane, as it were,
Speaker 6: another level that most people don't find themselves on, and
Speaker 6: that Bundy, for whatever reason, found himself on this other
Speaker 6: level that most people never go to at a very
Speaker 6: young age. And I remember he said, here he was
Speaker 6: at fifteen, he's he knew all about who he was
Speaker 6: and so and the traumatic aspects. I mean, Holmes knows
Speaker 6: that people can suffer trauma and not turn into something
Speaker 6: like that. But the circumstances must have been right. And
Speaker 6: this is a lot. I've said this at this symposium
Speaker 6: in front of other people that were there on the
Speaker 6: panel who are experts in this stuff and not just writers.
Speaker 6: But I said to the audience, I said, as much
Speaker 6: as we learn about chemical things that happened in the
Speaker 6: brain of these people and the differences, I said, not
Speaker 6: only do they not know for a certainty why these
Speaker 6: people are this way, I don't think they're ever going
Speaker 6: to know. At the same time, you can kind of
Speaker 6: figure out things about killers. And I know John Douglas
Speaker 6: has said one of the first things we did we
Speaker 6: were in the Behavioral Science unit, which is now just
Speaker 6: the Behavioral Analysis unit, but they said that they one
Speaker 6: big thing that they had was killers born or are
Speaker 6: they made? And I remember he said in the in
Speaker 6: the case of Kemper, you know Edmund Kemper, so in
Speaker 6: his case he believes he was more made than born
Speaker 6: that way. And then others are the proclivity to do
Speaker 6: things like this or to go that way may come
Speaker 6: into them at birth. But no matter what it is,
Speaker 6: there's a variety of reasons why people throughout this way,
Speaker 6: and I don't think they're ever going to get to
Speaker 6: the actual one reason. But the fractured identity syndrome is
Speaker 6: something that happens that again, but I callin it that
Speaker 6: he is more Quickley's language than the Bundy murders. I
Speaker 6: talk about this fractured personality and that's what Quickly talked about.
Speaker 6: They're fractured. You can't see it, you know. Bunny said
Speaker 6: something very interesting at one point. He said, when he
Speaker 6: was growing up he had these two friends. They were
Speaker 6: great friends of his, Terry Storlewick and and uh and
Speaker 6: one Dodge, and he and Dodge were born like twenty
Speaker 6: minutes apart, and they would joke about that. But they
Speaker 6: were all pretty all pretty of these kids. They did,
Speaker 6: they were all they were like inseparable. But Bunny would
Speaker 6: later say he didn't know how to be a like
Speaker 6: a friend of it never felt exactly right. In other words,
Speaker 6: you know, we've all had friends, and when we know
Speaker 6: we're like and we like them, it just naturally flows.
Speaker 6: There's not you know, we don't have to look at
Speaker 6: it and analyze it. It's just the way it is.
Speaker 6: And I'm sure with Terry Storwick and Warren Dodge, they
Speaker 6: were just all three friends and there wasn't you know,
Speaker 6: they weren't analyzing their friendship and just what it's what
Speaker 6: it was. Bundy, he had a hard time relating. Is
Speaker 6: all unspoken. He wouldn't tell this anybody, but he had
Speaker 6: a hard time relating as being a friend and doing
Speaker 6: it just it never felt right to him. And so
Speaker 6: I make the posit in the Bundy Murders that you know,
Speaker 6: like it's one thing to be like a mixed up, use,
Speaker 6: not understanding who you are, not feeling normal. You're gonna
Speaker 6: have all the sympathy in the world for people like that,
Speaker 6: and then it's another thing to go from that to
Speaker 6: becoming a predator of women and the destroyer of women.
Speaker 6: And but you know, it doesn't surprise me that there
Speaker 6: are occasions when people feel a certain way. I mean,
Speaker 6: there's a lot of people out there that grow up
Speaker 6: like this and don't understand some of the disconnects they have,
Speaker 6: But almost all of them will never go into murder.
Speaker 6: So even with something like that where they have a
Speaker 6: fractured personality, most people still do not do the acts
Speaker 6: that of Ted Bundy. But some do. And so there's
Speaker 6: other factors very well. So a mass fractured personality, I
Speaker 6: think his was the best thing we can say about it.
Speaker 6: We can see the results of it, we can partly
Speaker 6: understand it. That when it gets down to the nitty
Speaker 6: gritty of why somebody like Ted Bundy became Ted Bundy,
Speaker 6: I don't think I don't think they're going to figure
Speaker 6: that one out.
Speaker 5: No, No, let's talk about Don Patchin because it's very
Speaker 5: interesting he in the writing in the book, he talks
Speaker 5: about June or you interview him two thousand and eight,
Speaker 5: two thousand and eight partner. But he talks about first
Speaker 5: encountering Ted Bundy as this person named Kenneth Missner and
Speaker 5: he's twenty two stolen credit cards. So it's fascinating that
Speaker 5: he talks about his first encounter. Tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about what you write about Tom Patchan, what he
Speaker 5: has to say, what his encounters with Ted Bundy.
Speaker 6: Well, I listened to this. I had a friend say
Speaker 6: to me, he said, you know, I can, I can
Speaker 6: till I read your book. I thought Don Patrim was
Speaker 6: kind of like a rube with somebody, you know, he
Speaker 6: just didn't know his stuff. I said, Oh, oh, Patsy
Speaker 6: was a great investigator. He was really a sharp guy.
Speaker 6: He was a combat veteran. He did two tours in Vietnam,
Speaker 6: was wounded, came home and became a cop. Clear thinker,
Speaker 6: just really shocked at what he does. Well, you know
Speaker 6: when he got that call one night that there was
Speaker 6: a guy arrested, arrested in Pensacola who had identified himself
Speaker 6: as Kenneth Myerston, who was in Tallahassee, a pretty well
Speaker 6: tack star. And they had all these stolen credit cards
Speaker 6: on him and things like that. But this is who
Speaker 6: we identified himself. But well, he had to call Steve Bodiford.
Speaker 6: You know, John Patrick was the lead detective end up
Speaker 6: ended up being the lead detective in the Kyle Omega
Speaker 6: case for Tallahassee for the Tallahaffe Pde. And so he
Speaker 6: when this Myson fellow was captured in Pensacola with all
Speaker 6: these credit cards that were linking him to tallahafthe he
Speaker 6: called Steve Botiford, detective of the Leon County County Sheriff's Department,
Speaker 6: and they had to travel at Pensacola, and so, you know,
Speaker 6: they get there and this is who he says he is,
Speaker 6: and apparently that he and Miser somewhat resembled themselves. But
Speaker 6: they found out that the real miss that's not me.
Speaker 6: And so they find out while they're down there interviewing
Speaker 6: this guy that he's not Miser, and for a very
Speaker 6: brief time, you'll see in the reports he's identified as
Speaker 6: mister Doe. But there almost immediately goes to Bundy because
Speaker 6: Bundy had said to them, he had said, you know,
Speaker 6: if you let me make a couple of personal calls,
Speaker 6: I'll tell you who I am, and it's really got
Speaker 6: to he said, you know, I'll he said, this is
Speaker 6: going to make you famous, and Passion laughed. He said,
Speaker 6: oh yeah, well why is it going to make us famous?
Speaker 6: And anyway came out of course he's dead Bundy. Nobody
Speaker 6: they hear the Who's dead Bundy And then of course
Speaker 6: these calls start coming in from kepel Fisher people like that.
Speaker 6: And but Patsion was an astute, uh detective and what
Speaker 6: I loved about interviewing him. And by the way, he's
Speaker 6: still alive. He's had a tremendous amount of problems. I
Speaker 6: was supposed to go down and see him before COVID
Speaker 6: hit and so we had to cancel all that. And
Speaker 6: he's got operations he's going to go through. But he's actually,
Speaker 6: uh going to give me his entire case file, and well,
Speaker 6: he wants me to have it. He told me, he said,
Speaker 6: even if I'm not alive by the time you come
Speaker 6: down here, I've already instructed my wife and I want
Speaker 6: you to have it. And uh you just like for
Speaker 6: the rest of these guys, we developed a really good
Speaker 6: friendship and Pacings are really really really nice, nice seller.
Speaker 6: But as a detective. He was really shocked. So I'm
Speaker 6: going to go down the summers, spend a couple of
Speaker 6: days with him, and and uh pick the honor to
Speaker 6: pick up the case, spile and bringing home an additive
Speaker 6: a thousand of a thousand the pages already at and
Speaker 6: so but he's just a great guy, very analytical in
Speaker 6: this thinking. And uh, one thing he said about the
Speaker 6: credit cards, he said, it's unusual for someone to admit
Speaker 6: that they saw in these cards. And that is what
Speaker 6: this of these fellow did. That is what this mister
Speaker 6: Doe did. They first an he got out of Bundy,
Speaker 6: he said, Usually criminals will say, oh, no, that must
Speaker 6: have been in the car. Yes, I'm in the stolen car.
Speaker 6: I'd get it. But those were already here. But he said,
Speaker 6: Bundy had no trouble admitted that that was them. He
Speaker 6: stole the cards. He said, So see that take a
Speaker 6: tip off, because the main thing in Bundy's mind was
Speaker 6: not being connected to murder. The credit card deft alone
Speaker 6: that he was going to prison for many years. He
Speaker 6: would be convicted of that many years without question. So anyway,
Speaker 6: but Passion's a great guy. He's still around. I don't
Speaker 6: know how long he'll be around, but hopefully. I told
Speaker 6: Dodd said, don you keep defeating everything, and I like that,
Speaker 6: and he said, yeah, I got two cardiologists. I got this,
Speaker 6: I got that, I got the other. And last time
Speaker 6: when I supposed to them before, he had developed sepsis
Speaker 6: and he was in the hospital and just having trouble
Speaker 6: and they have an operation and they thought he wasn't
Speaker 6: gonna make it, and his wife said, was you just
Speaker 6: do everything you can possibly do and don't give up
Speaker 6: on him, And he made it again. So he's like
Speaker 6: the cat was not idolyzed. He's a cat with about
Speaker 6: twenty lives. But I like that, and anybody that would
Speaker 6: meat packs and they would like him immediately. He's really
Speaker 6: a great guy. All these detectives of this way, which
Speaker 6: is very very nice. People.
Speaker 5: You talked that Ted had told him that he it
Speaker 5: was like being a vampire in these about forty hours
Speaker 5: worth of interviews, didn't he Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean Bundy came off that way. He
Speaker 6: came off that way to Thompson too, and Thompson said
Speaker 6: the same thing. And in fact, when Bonniford and despite
Speaker 6: you know, the interviews of Bundy began at Pensacola, and
Speaker 6: the lead detective on the case in Pensacola was with
Speaker 6: Norman Chapman. But when Bundy was transferred to Tallahassee, Chapman
Speaker 6: was out of that porsman of the case and it
Speaker 6: was just Steve Bontiford, Dohn Patton and then whomever in
Speaker 6: Tallahassee was wanting to interview him. But it basically goes two.
Speaker 6: But that that. But but they had said that Bundy
Speaker 6: at one point told them told Bontiford and Patrick sm
Speaker 6: off the tape, stopped the tapes from mine. And he
Speaker 6: did as he was doing this, he he went in
Speaker 6: to the things that he likes to do, and and
Speaker 6: he said, sometimes I feel like a vampire. And you know,
Speaker 6: he said, you don't understand the significance of Officer Lee
Speaker 6: stopping me in Pensacola and arresting me, and what happened
Speaker 6: in Utah when I was arrested. But when you know more,
Speaker 6: you will. And I've seen the sheep where Patrick was scribbling.
Speaker 6: These also got a copy of it, and Bifer was
Speaker 6: doing the same thing. Yea, even though the tapes were
Speaker 6: all Bundy may not have realized it, but this stuff
Speaker 6: was submitted into evidence. And here's the thing about dealing
Speaker 6: with killers. There's a lot you're going there's a person
Speaker 6: out there who's a researcher, and this individual doesn't want
Speaker 6: to take anything, even from detectives that is on tape.
Speaker 6: And I said to this person once, say say you're
Speaker 6: going to do that. It's all that stuff because a
Speaker 6: lot of the things that they've said that these these
Speaker 6: men and women are not on tape. And in fact,
Speaker 6: if you've seen the movie mind Hunter where they're sitting
Speaker 6: down with their tape recording and taking notes, none of
Speaker 6: that happened that John Douglas said, we never used recorders.
Speaker 6: We took notes only because if we've used a recorder,
Speaker 6: they'd have backed off, they would have planned up. And
Speaker 6: so a lot of stuf has come out from what
Speaker 6: he protectives had gleaned from these killers that was never
Speaker 6: on tape. And you know, the course, when Pats and
Speaker 6: Volifort wanted to submit this into evident, they didn't say,
Speaker 6: well did you get that on tape. No, he told
Speaker 6: us this, He said, turn off the tapes. It was
Speaker 6: admitted into the record, and so you know it's very important.
Speaker 6: And so Bundy when he said Arnolf the tape, he
Speaker 6: probably thought, well, I'll just be able to tell some
Speaker 6: things about how I feel, what I deal with, and
Speaker 6: it's going to stay with us, okay. But it didn't,
Speaker 6: and it came out and I know one thing he
Speaker 6: said is another thing, and I brought this entire thing
Speaker 6: out and oh, I could be the Bundy secrets of
Speaker 6: Ted Bunny's murdiemeisters. I can't remember which I go the
Speaker 6: whole scenario. I think it's the Bundy secrets. But he
Speaker 6: said there was a he saw a woman one time
Speaker 6: that he said, I had to have them like all
Speaker 6: the bikers, and I had to have it or it's
Speaker 6: good to be long. And I can't remember, but he
Speaker 6: said I had to have it. It was like that said,
Speaker 6: I gotta do this, I gotta do this. And so
Speaker 6: he goes into these things to let them know exactly
Speaker 6: what he's dealing with. And Anson said at one point Bundy,
Speaker 6: and this is what what that psychiatrist haired about the defense.
Speaker 6: His name was Tonay. He said that Bundy hinders his
Speaker 6: own descent sometimes and will help the prosecution. It just
Speaker 6: it's a thing he kind of does. But he told
Speaker 6: when they were asking him about the Kyle magemurs, Bundy
Speaker 6: said to them, and he said, if you ask me
Speaker 6: flying out and I say no, but but he was.
Speaker 6: But he was saying things to them, let them know that, yes,
Speaker 6: there are things that are there, but he didn't want
Speaker 6: to have to come out and say it. But at
Speaker 6: one point he said, the evidence is there, look for it.
Speaker 6: How about that the evidence is there, look for it.
Speaker 6: And of course they did. And when Bundy, you know,
Speaker 6: when he was involved in the the Florida trial of
Speaker 6: Kyle Omega and doing depositions during the also the he
Speaker 6: didn't really it wasn't called council for the Leached trial.
Speaker 6: But he was basically let them do it. But he
Speaker 6: might have done some depositions or this where our bouts.
Speaker 6: They could have come out in the lake uh not
Speaker 6: Lake Sanich, I'm sorry, but than the ky Omega thing.
Speaker 6: But when when he was interviewing, I think it was
Speaker 6: patching and yeah, it was patching, and he said Pastion said, well,
Speaker 6: what you know, it can all be cleared up if
Speaker 6: you could just take us to the oh this is
Speaker 6: during question. He just take us to where the Leach
Speaker 6: girl is before they discover the body. He said, I
Speaker 6: can't do that because it's too horrible to look at,
Speaker 6: which is an admission that he did it. Otherwise, how
Speaker 6: would he know if you see what he was doing.
Speaker 6: So he was coming out and basically consensing without confessing,
Speaker 6: so inadvertently. You know that. I have to say that
Speaker 6: the defense would like to have tried the case with
Speaker 6: Bundy in Absensia gone somewhere, because Bundy was the main
Speaker 6: ingredient the torpedoing his own defense in Florida. Yeah, it's
Speaker 6: just really unbelievable. What if you look at what he did.
Speaker 6: Angelos as psychologist today touched upon this about how he's
Speaker 6: just as likely to him to his own defense and
Speaker 6: help the prosecution. You got to ask yourself, why why
Speaker 6: was he doing this? And yet he did it?
Speaker 5: Finally too for Let You Go, Don Patchen talked about
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy really liking the upcoming show as he called it,
Speaker 5: the Execution, and Don Patchen was there at the electrocution
Speaker 5: and he had a last visit with Bundy and he
Speaker 5: said how many did you really kill? And Ted Bundy?
Speaker 5: Bundy said three digits. Yeah, So there was always this
Speaker 5: contention of how many did he actually admit to killing?
Speaker 5: But Don Patchen was there to say how do you
Speaker 5: live with it?
Speaker 6: Yeah? And and and and yeah, because he can talk
Speaker 6: about how cold that was, I mean, how do you
Speaker 6: live with it? And Bundy rattled something off with you
Speaker 6: just you know London, whether or deal with it or
Speaker 6: something that he said. But you know Bundy, he would
Speaker 6: in the trial, he would do things, I mean, listen,
Speaker 6: in the in the trial he would get this is
Speaker 6: the last thing you should do with your offending your
Speaker 6: client and Bundy's gates your own life. You would not
Speaker 6: call on someone to then a detective and then have
Speaker 6: them describe the bloody scene within kuy Omega. That's the
Speaker 6: last thing it's going to come out anyway. But you
Speaker 6: don't ever want to bring that stuff out because it's
Speaker 6: going to paint a picture with the jury and they'll
Speaker 6: be more likely to convict you and even sentence you
Speaker 6: to death in the penalty phase because of all the
Speaker 6: horrors that they've had the witness Well, Bundy would call
Speaker 6: on people to describe this stuff. It's the last thing
Speaker 6: he should have done. It was an absolute gift to
Speaker 6: the prosecution and the investigators thought. The reason why Bundy
Speaker 6: did this is because he enjoyed hearing about it. Imagine that,
Speaker 6: and yet it was done at hurt. Yeah, yeah, well
Speaker 6: that's the whole thing.
Speaker 5: It seems insane that he would turn down this life
Speaker 5: in prison and risk the death penalty sentence. But also
Speaker 5: he loved representing himself. He loved that that arena, you know,
Speaker 5: for that was the want to be lawyer. The guy
Speaker 5: that could have been a lawyer wasn't a lawyer. That
Speaker 5: never completed being a lawyer.
Speaker 6: He was a lawyer, never completed, never completed. He thought
Speaker 6: he was really slick in that area, but yet he
Speaker 6: never completed, and and he wasn't. He certainly did a
Speaker 6: lot to hinder his own defense. And of course when
Speaker 6: he was convicted in a kind of mega trial, I mean,
Speaker 6: the wind would just went out of him. And he
Speaker 6: didn't do very much at all for the Leech trial.
Speaker 6: But to think that he was free, not free, but
Speaker 6: he was free of the day that Pelics he had taken.
Speaker 6: That deal with Florida, with the prosecution was altering before
Speaker 6: Eva Trill went forward. Everybody was convinced to do it,
Speaker 6: otherwise Florida is going to kill you. But he rejected it.
Speaker 6: And then course towards the end he was doing everything
Speaker 6: he could to stave off the execution with his bones,
Speaker 6: his scheme, but that didn't work.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think his arrogance, he overestimated his own abilities,
Speaker 5: and then near the end he was desperate to try
Speaker 5: to remain alive. And I think he would have enjoyed
Speaker 5: all this notoriety. I think he would have.
Speaker 6: I think.
Speaker 5: You know what he thought he would be were there
Speaker 5: at I think it would have been a new world
Speaker 5: of adulation and admiration for a guy like him. He
Speaker 5: would have really really enjoyed the upcoming years.
Speaker 6: And and you know, to touch on that when he
Speaker 6: was having that conversation which you had been reading the
Speaker 6: Bundy Mersons and also a subsequent book even in more detail.
Speaker 6: But when he was talking to that woman that I
Speaker 6: identifying the Bundy mursays don proud. She ran into him
Speaker 6: and the lunch room of the cafeteria of the University
Speaker 6: of Washington as they were talking about it, and she
Speaker 6: knew he was involved in this case. He said, you know,
Speaker 6: hopefully people will forget about it. Bundy was very defensive.
Speaker 6: He said, oh no, they won't forget about it. They
Speaker 6: won't forget about it. You know, it's too intricate for
Speaker 6: like them to forget about it. There's just it too
Speaker 6: much there.
Speaker 5: And that's just it.
Speaker 6: He was very proud of what he had done, very
Speaker 6: proud of where he was in all of this. So, yeah,
Speaker 6: it's amazing, isn't it? Absolutely amazing?
Speaker 5: That's yeah, And that is the the Enigma of Ted Bundy,
Speaker 5: the questions and controversies surrounding America's most infamous serial killer.
Speaker 5: Kevin Sullivan has been an absolute pleasure talking about the
Speaker 5: Enigma of Ted Bundy. You're all over Amazon. Tell us
Speaker 5: just about your website or the Amazon page before I
Speaker 5: let you go.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, the Amazon you can you can bring me
Speaker 6: up and Amazon will not only display all of my books,
Speaker 6: but but you will on my altar page. But you'll
Speaker 6: have links to the work that I've done through Wild
Speaker 6: Blue Press. Is I have various publishers, but they are
Speaker 6: mainly my main publisher now that's been for a number
Speaker 6: of years. And there will be links and blogs I've
Speaker 6: written from Amazon that you can will take your Wild
Speaker 6: Blue Press or you can go to wild bluepress dot
Speaker 6: com directly go to their authors look me up, and
Speaker 6: I've got a lot of blog posts archive and in
Speaker 6: fact I've just recently written another one in the last
Speaker 6: couple of days, called The Allure of Human Monsters, And
Speaker 6: so if you google the Allure of Human Monsters, it
Speaker 6: will bring it up on Google, and it will take
Speaker 6: your right to wild Blue Press.
Speaker 5: Sounds great. Thank you so much, Kevin Sullivan. It's been great.
Speaker 6: I enjoyed it. Thank you, sir. Good night,