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No purchase necessary void We're prohibited by Law 24 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:59.759 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply see website for. 25 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:12.159 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 26 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:15.280 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:22.640 written about them, Geesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 28 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:26.359 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:30.959 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:33.840 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 31 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:47.359 Good evening. If you want a view into the world 32 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:51.280 that lies behind the Ted Bundy murders. This last work 33 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:54.200 in a series of six books on Bundy is definitely 34 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:57.719 for you. For within these pages you'll read of the 35 00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:01.879 many questions still surrounding this fascinating an intricate case, as 36 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:04.920 well as the answers that are only now being provided here. 37 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:08.719 There's so much more to learn and new information is 38 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:12.639 still surfacing about Bundy, his victims, and his potential victims. 39 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:16.280 As such, there is new testimony, including from those who 40 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:18.759 had a brush with the killer and others who played 41 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:23.280 their own roles in this multi state case. In this book, 42 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:26.520 Bundy Case detective Jerry Thompson of Salt Lake City, Utah 43 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:30.479 and Don Patchen of Tallahassee, Florida talk about their personal 44 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:35.439 experiences with Bundy. So does Ron Holmes, the Louisville criminologist 45 00:02:35.479 --> 00:02:38.479 who worked with the killer towards the end of his life. 46 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:41.520 Also included are official reports that have rarely been viewed 47 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:44.879 outside of the archives, along with the author's commentary to 48 00:02:44.919 --> 00:02:48.960 guide readers through them. And last, but not least, is 49 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:53.240 Bundy's final confession to Utah detective Dennis Couch, just hours 50 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:58.800 prior to Bundy's execution. In it, Bundy reveals startling facts 51 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:02.879 and sparks addtional questions. I must read for those true 52 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:08.039 crime readers fascinated by America's most enigmatic and infamous serial killer. 53 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:11.919 The book that we're featuring this evening is the Enigma 54 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:16.840 of Ted Bundy, The Questions and Controversies surrounding America's most 55 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:20.840 infamous serial killer, with my special guest journalist and author, 56 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:26.080 the world's resident expert on Ted Bundy, Kevin Sullivan. Thank 57 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:27.960 you so much for this interview and welcome back to 58 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:28.560 the program. 59 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:32.800 Kevin Sullivan, Well, thanks Sam for having me back. I 60 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:34.719 know we always have a great time when we talk 61 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:38.039 about Ted Bundy, another killer, so I expect it to 62 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:38.960 be an excellent show. 63 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:44.120 Absolutely, it's always fascinating talking to you about Ted Bundy, 64 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:48.439 and I am marvel as many people do. I imagine 65 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:52.520 that there is never too much information about Ted Bundy. 66 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:57.360 And you have provided once again some surprising and incredible 67 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:01.759 new information. And it's like reading a brand new case. 68 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:05.639 It's incredible. Tell us with this book as you write 69 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:09.800 what you were tackling. You're tackling a number of questions, speculations, 70 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:13.240 and controversies that have surrounded the Ted Bundy case for 71 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:17.120 many years. What are you adding with this book? What 72 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:22.199 specifically is in this For those Ted Bundy fanatics and 73 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:25.360 for those that have read the previous six Ted Bundy 74 00:04:25.399 --> 00:04:27.000 books that you've written. 75 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:31.759 Sure, well you know this sixth book, The Enigma of 76 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:38.560 Ted Bundy, is a culmination of a series of six books, 77 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:43.720 holding over fourteen hundred pages. And I really believe that 78 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:47.600 that was going to be the last book that I 79 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:54.160 would write. But keep getting new information coming to me 80 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:57.240 all the time, and so I'm gathering even more information now. 81 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.279 But the thing, and I figured, you know, and all 82 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:03.199 the people that read my books agree with it, why 83 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:06.040 should I receive the information and let it sit in 84 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:08.639 my file drawers. So as as stuff comes to me, 85 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:12.279 I'll be publishing things in the future. But this, this 86 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:16.319 last book of the main six books, I wanted to 87 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:21.639 do something a little different. I wanted to create a 88 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:24.319 book that could tackle a lot of the questions and 89 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:28.759 controversies about Bundy, cover the types of things that you 90 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:33.319 can't cover when you're writing. For example, when I wrote 91 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:37.759 my flagship book, The Biography of Ted Bundy, The Bundy Murders, 92 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:41.920 a comprehensive history, and then the companion Biumes that I've 93 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:44.680 had since then, you could do, you know a little 94 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:47.480 bit in there. But I wanted a enigma to really 95 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:51.000 just focus on some things that were that had not 96 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:54.279 been covered before. And that's one of the reasons why 97 00:05:54.360 --> 00:06:01.480 I added the transcripts that I had originally UH done 98 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:05.360 of the interviews of Don Paxson, Jerry Thompson and Ron 99 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:08.199 Holmes back in two thousand and seven. In two thousand 100 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:10.639 and eight, when I was doing research for my book 101 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:13.600 The Bundy Murders. Now I had not listened to these 102 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:16.759 tapes for a long time. It dated in many years, 103 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:19.319 and of course The Bundy Murders, the first edition came 104 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:21.839 out in two thousand and nine. It was re released 105 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:26.600 as an updated expanded verse April twenty twenty but I 106 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:29.879 had quoted from these men, not just from those tapes 107 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:32.360 a little bit, but I've had so many conversations with them, 108 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:35.079 off Dake, I've quoted from them in the book The 109 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:38.759 Bundye Murders. But back and listen to these books, these 110 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:43.120 these tapes, and I turned them into transcripts for the book, 111 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:47.879 and it was almost like listening to them for the 112 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:50.040 first time. And I thought, this is going to be 113 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:54.879 really great for the reader to get down into print 114 00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:00.560 for Enigma, because, for example, Jerry Thompson passed away, uh 115 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:05.160 about a year and a half ago, and and and 116 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:08.839 and then my Holmes is gone as well. So I 117 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:10.240 was wanting to do that. So I wanted to get 118 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:12.360 a lot of things in there, look at look at 119 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:17.079 Bundy from a number of angles, as well as we 120 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:24.319 produced some of the case file material that that most 121 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:27.399 people will never be able to read, and then had 122 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:30.000 commentary along, you know with that. So I wanted to 123 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:34.040 make Enigma rather unique. And as I went through the book, 124 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.879 and as I finished the book, I think I was 125 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:38.680 successful in doing so. 126 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:44.000 Right, It's also fascinating you talked, you just talked about 127 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:47.399 these files, but they're the supplementary reports. So we're actually 128 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:51.079 reading some of the things that people could read, police 129 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:54.560 officers could read if they had access at that time. 130 00:07:55.040 --> 00:08:01.199 And it's fascinating. You start with the an officer receives 131 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.519 a call from Chief Anderson and a Mitchell, a mister 132 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:09.120 Richard Man and called and said his daughter Margaret had 133 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.079 some information about the Bundy case. Just to demonstrate this, 134 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:17.399 this is the opening supplementary report. Tell us, tell us 135 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:21.240 a little bit about this supplementary report and what the 136 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:25.279 DA his daughter Margaret was reporting about Bundy specifically. 137 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:33.960 Yeah, Well, Margaret Maun lived at Plast sixty five, first 138 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:37.759 ever in Salt Lake City, and she and she knew 139 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:43.919 Kid well and she in I think I quote her 140 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.360 a couple of times in the supplementary reports that I've 141 00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:53.559 added in different places. But but but Man, when she 142 00:08:53.679 --> 00:09:00.279 was interviewed by the all the detectives, she noted at 143 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:05.720 the passenger seat on Bundy's Volkswagen would rock back and forth. 144 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:10.799 And of course the reason for that, and the investigators 145 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:13.759 knew this after they learned that Bundy was constantly taking 146 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:17.480 that passenger seat out and putting it back in and 147 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:22.200 doing so he he kind of tight fitting aspect of 148 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:23.960 it was gone, and she said she used to have 149 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:27.159 to hold on that that seat would rock back and forth. 150 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:31.799 But Marburn knew him. She liked Bundy. Her father was 151 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:35.960 on the as I recalled, the State Supreme Court of Utah, 152 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:38.840 and after Bundy got in trouble, she had to he 153 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:43.039 had to recuse himself because obviously he had met Bundy 154 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:46.559 and had some dealings with him, and of course knew 155 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:53.360 him through through his daughter. But if you read her testimony, 156 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:56.840 it's just very interesting and what these people knew who 157 00:09:57.159 --> 00:10:00.519 knew Bundy either hunted him and had dealing with him, 158 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:05.399 or you know, we're friends with him. It really is 159 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:11.279 a window into, you know, Bundy's life and what came forth. 160 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.919 And there's another thing that I was wanting to do 161 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:17.000 in those supplementary reports when I wrote to Bundy Murders, 162 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:22.039 I included just a portion of the cat and mouse 163 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:27.600 thing that that Bundy had with the Seattle cops when 164 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:31.200 he had gone home from Utah in December of my 165 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:36.039 seventy five, having been released from from jail on bail, 166 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:39.399 and they knew Bundy was coming and they tracked him 167 00:10:40.039 --> 00:10:44.559 and they surveiled him for a couple of months before 168 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:47.720 he went back home. That went over so well. People 169 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:50.799 loved that so much. From the Bundy Murders that I included, 170 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:53.080 I didn't use them all. I included the rest of 171 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:56.440 those in other Companion buyings. Well, when I was doing Enigma, 172 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:01.279 I thought, I want to add the surveillance tapes of Utah, 173 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:03.480 of the Utah cops, and so I've got those in 174 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:06.600 there too. But you'll but you'll find in these supplementary reports. 175 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:09.519 I'll tell you one thing really great about them. When 176 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:12.399 I was writing The Bundy Murders and I was dealing with, uh, 177 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:16.120 the official records. What you do when you're writing narrative 178 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:19.919 non fiction, you're telling a story, you don't you don't 179 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:23.360 replicate the reports. You write your story based on what's 180 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:25.320 in the reports, and then you can add squibs here 181 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:28.240 or there of the reports. That's just normal. But I 182 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:30.759 remember when I was writing, you know, the Money Murders, 183 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:33.240 I thought, this is it would be so great if 184 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:37.399 people could see the full reports. And so, you know, 185 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:40.440 you can't do that when you're writing something like biography, 186 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:42.039 it's just got done. 187 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:43.000 But in the. 188 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.080 Companion volumes, you were able to bring some of that 189 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:50.519 out with commentary, like for this for me, if to 190 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:53.480 somebody else. I've read other supplementary reports and other people's 191 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:56.120 books on about Bundy, but other things, and the people 192 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.440 will the author will speak about something and say here's 193 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:01.759 a report on that or whatever. So it's very very interesting. Thus, 194 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.360 when you look back at this thing, what's an enigma 195 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:09.879 about Margaret Man Her father's in a position in the 196 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:13.240 court system they had to recuse himself later, and just 197 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.320 what she says about dealing with Bundy. It just it's 198 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:20.320 a great window into what happened during that time. 199 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:24.679 You talk about a great window. You actually have the 200 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:29.240 starting in September seventh, seventy five. You have it talks 201 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:33.840 about the interview of Elizabeth Klopfer, and everybody knows who 202 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:38.000 that is in terms of Ted Bundy and talks like 203 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:42.519 she works at the University of Washington Medical Institute. Tell 204 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:45.679 us this a little bit about what was very interesting 205 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.240 when you did having written all these books and then 206 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:53.600 you saw the actual supplementary reports. What was most interesting 207 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:59.480 or fascinating or stood out for when you reviewed those 208 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:03.519 actual supplemented reports, the police interaction and phone calls with Elizabeth. 209 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:11.080 Yeah, you know, I included I think about the entire thing, 210 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:14.799 and I've touched on that before. And I remember when 211 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:20.919 when I was interviewing uh, Jerry Thompson. Uh. In fact, 212 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:24.399 Jerry was just he was just really a great guy. 213 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:27.799 He was always helpful. You know. I had two faiths 214 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:30.799 to face interviews and interviews with him, which were quite 215 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:34.159 substantial interviews both times, and yet we talked on the 216 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:37.279 phone as other times we emailed each other. He always 217 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:41.399 gave like, like I like to say, additional clarification when 218 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.480 I stumbled on something and I needed to know more. 219 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:49.399 And so many things came out with Jerry, you know 220 00:13:49.480 --> 00:13:54.320 about these various interviews you did with people, and as 221 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:56.480 well as Liz, and you know, he said she was 222 00:13:56.879 --> 00:14:00.519 extremely nice and and none of the investment the gators 223 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:04.519 were really upset with her that she kind of bounced 224 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:08.639 back and forth with Bundy or hoping he's not him, 225 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:11.399 and then believing that he probably is, thinking no, it 226 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:16.799 couldn't be. So the detectives kind of understood what kind 227 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:20.639 of quandary that she was in. But those interviews that 228 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:25.960 they did with her were very eye opening as to 229 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.320 the nature of Bundy. And if you look at what 230 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:34.440 she had to say to these detectives and she would 231 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:37.840 end up having great, great guilt for them because she 232 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:40.200 was just she would be in these periods. She'd think 233 00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:43.960 she'd get back around Bundy, and well, he just can't 234 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:46.919 be and then she'd have guilt for having talked to 235 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:49.240 the cops. And I remember when she admitted the Bundy 236 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:51.360 that she did I vote in the Bundy murders. That 237 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:53.759 must have been like having a knife in the gut 238 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:58.480 for him to hear that she actually talked with him. 239 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:04.279 But but yeah, but she was honest, and but she was, 240 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:08.320 you know, just she was very forthright with with them, 241 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:14.159 Jerry and some other uh this deal and I of, 242 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:19.480 you know, bountful. They flew up the theatre and met 243 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:23.759 at the I believe the king County Ted passport Ted 244 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:26.360 Task Force office where you know Kepple was. So they 245 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:28.759 had this great interview and it wouldn't be the last time. 246 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:32.360 And I remember in one of the interviews, I think 247 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:36.720 the one that I happened in Enigma, she's got she's 248 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:43.919 asking questions. She's not just answering questions, but she's asking questions. 249 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:48.279 And you know, she heard about a rapist in the 250 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:53.240 avenues and Bundy in the vernacular of the day, it's 251 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:55.919 not how people. Thank God, it's d that people talk now. 252 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:58.480 But then they tried to blame it on what he 253 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.360 said was returned people that around the corner. Probably a 254 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:06.519 good chance it was Blundy committing some of these rapes. 255 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.840 It may not be, but it's real funny that he 256 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:11.120 lived in the avenues and these things were going on, 257 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:14.840 and so I guess there were occasions where Bundy would 258 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:21.720 he has suspected anyway of raping some people, but maybe 259 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:24.519 not murdering them when it was rape only. But most 260 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:29.200 of his activity with women, as you will know, it 261 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:31.440 had to do with murder, and because that's why he 262 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:33.679 enjoyed so much. And of course from then it was 263 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:37.039 it was the necrophilia. So the avenue's rapist insult Lake 264 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:39.919 City might not be Blundy, but he was certainly suspected 265 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.279 of it, and she talked about that. She was very 266 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:45.919 concerned that he might be involved in it. So anyway, 267 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:47.600 but they're very interesting interviews. 268 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:52.039 Yeah, it's interesting to you say what she was asking questions. 269 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:54.759 She was asking if all the items were in a bag, 270 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:58.519 because he has explained to her that he wore the 271 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:01.679 ski mask to keep his ear he's warm while shoveling snow. 272 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:04.599 But then she, I guess was suspicious of that, so 273 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.240 she asked them about that. But they got a lot 274 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:10.200 of information from her, didn't they about the fig about 275 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:13.440 the mustache. That was established a lot of I mean, 276 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:16.319 a lot of things were established from her. It was 277 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:17.599 amazing really reading that. 278 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:21.759 Oh. Absolutely. They showed her the picture of the murder 279 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:23.480 kit that was the same one that was in my home. 280 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:27.559 And she recognized the statuel, and she recognized the ski 281 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:30.799 mask and a few of the other items. I don't 282 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.480 think she had seen the ice pick or some other things. 283 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:38.599 And Bundy did have an excuse. I remember Ross Davis 284 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:44.039 had told investigators that one time when Bundy's car broke down, 285 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:49.079 he did use the rope to pull Bundy's car that 286 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:53.599 that Bundy had, and Bundy was trying to make excuses 287 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.839 as to why he would have all this stuff. Of course, 288 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.960 you take a look at what he had in this bag. 289 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:02.119 I mean, it just this isn't for what he said 290 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:04.920 it was, although he could use them for in some 291 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:07.799 cases some some other things. But she said, some of 292 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:10.240 the stuff I've seen, and then she named it and 293 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:13.079 other stuff that I haven't seen. But he and She 294 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:17.279 also mentioned in there that she had a type of 295 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:23.440 what was a tire tool, a job over handle, you know, 296 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:26.480 I know, yeah, you know what was that the one 297 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:30.720 where she said Bundy wrapped it, wrapped it and he 298 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:35.480 had wrapped it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but so 299 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:38.960 so so anyway, and I remember Thompson said in the interview, 300 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:40.559 he said, well, I'd like to see that before we 301 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:43.400 go back, So I'm assuming that she showed it to him. 302 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:48.920 But yeah, and so, you know, she she was very forthright, 303 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:53.079 and uh, you know, Jerry said an interesting, interesting thing. 304 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:57.960 He said, I can't tell you like some things that 305 00:18:58.039 --> 00:18:59.799 she wanted to know. He said, I want to back, 306 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.519 and he said, not only can I not tell you, 307 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:07.200 I can't even tell anybody like the in the department 308 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:13.640 except for my partner. Just himming right, and his partner 309 00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:16.079 that was it because he didn't want the stuff information 310 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:18.720 getting out, even to the other cops, because they may 311 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:24.039 start talking about it then. So he said, Jerry was 312 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:27.920 the kind of guy that he was no nonsense, and 313 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:29.720 he could be funny and stuff like that, but he 314 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:32.400 was no nonsense and he would shoot straight with you, 315 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:35.240 and he wouldn't lie to you, and he was just 316 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.799 gonna tell it like it is. And he didn't put 317 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:40.839 up with bs from people, and he would call them 318 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:43.839 out on it. So he was a really straight shooter. 319 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:47.079 He had a really interesting way of speaking to if 320 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:49.640 you could ever hear him on tape, we've got like 321 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:52.519 a clipped way of speaking, but he was just he 322 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.960 had like an interesting accent. But in any event, those 323 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:59.000 were really, really, really great interviews. And of course you 324 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:01.319 take that and he's like everything that we know and 325 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:05.400 all these other reports, and throughout my six books you'll 326 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:08.559 find a lot of the really what I call important 327 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.920 supplementary reports and along with commentary, and it just gives 328 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:16.359 people a window into saying, I know, I wrote in 329 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:18.039 one of my books, I think it might have been 330 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.000 I don't know if the TRAILFT had one of one 331 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:23.319 of them, but I said, these reports that were put 332 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:28.200 together by the detectives, the investigators, I mean, in the 333 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:30.400 back of their head, they may have known that what 334 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:33.279 years and years from now, somebody could see them, but 335 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:36.279 they really weren't really thinking about that very much. Because 336 00:20:36.759 --> 00:20:41.279 in these reports they would occasionally insult certain people and 337 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.240 they put it in print, which makes it really interesting 338 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:46.759 for the researchers and the writers that come out later 339 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:48.720 and put that stuff out. And I've got a couple 340 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:52.119 places in several places in Enigma, but in one of 341 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:54.480 the other books where it talks about and I mentioned 342 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:57.279 it in the commentary how they came out. But if 343 00:20:57.279 --> 00:20:59.359 you look at and said these things, and they just 344 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:03.839 it was like else humor, And I say, I make 345 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:06.720 mention that this is no different than they would you know, 346 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:09.799 comment to each other about and make jokes about. So 347 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.400 they would have these things sometimes to the record. We 348 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.279 think in terms of now being public, you know, you think, 349 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:17.240 oh my gosh, that they wish they could go back 350 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:20.960 and remove that. But but the record is extremely interesting, 351 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.079 and that's why I try to put some of the 352 00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:31.279 record in my pod Companion Biomes, I should say, Fortuno Encyclopedia. Yeah. 353 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:36.359 Absolutely. It's also interesting how cooperative she really is at 354 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:40.720 for the most part, very cooperative, especially when they're asking 355 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:44.400 her things that they think is very relevant. But it 356 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.000 would be so difficult for her to answer. And those 357 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:51.559 are questions about his sex, their sex life, and and 358 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:56.240 his voclivities per se. 359 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:00.240 Yeah. Yeah, well she was very open about it, and 360 00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:04.920 you know, at one point she said I remember Thompson 361 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:10.240 said to her, he said, you know, was Bundy the 362 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.400 kind of person that could, you know, go one after 363 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.640 the other over and over and over. And she said, well, 364 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:18.319 you know when we first met, but you know, after 365 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.839 we were together six years, after a while, he was 366 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:24.960 just normal. And he said, okay, yeah, he said, I 367 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:29.599 understand that. But yeah. The the investigators looked at Liz 368 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:33.440 as someone who was trying to do the right thing 369 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:39.319 and having difficulty. But the thing people need to understand 370 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:42.680 about Liz is that when the rubber was meeting the road, 371 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:45.799 she was still going to do what she thought was right. 372 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:51.480 When she had the momentary doubts about Bundy, it wasn't 373 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.640 volitionally she said, I'm going to be obstinate to the 374 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:58.680 cops because I'm going to I'm going to defend Bundy. 375 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:01.079 She wasn't one of the folks that were going to 376 00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:04.519 defend somebody that she thought was guilty. So even though 377 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:08.880 she had struggles, you know, even though when she got 378 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:12.960 around Bundy she could feel that pool to think, oh, 379 00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:16.480 I must be wrong about this. He couldn't be doing 380 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:19.680 all these things. He's too loving, he's too nice. But 381 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:24.119 I remember in one of the reports that I had 382 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:28.680 in one of my books. The investigator said that Liz's 383 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:32.200 back on bund besides, and she's not getting cooperative. But 384 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:35.319 even they understood what was going on. They understood that 385 00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:38.839 she had come forward. She had told them a lot. 386 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:43.599 She was vacillating, but not vacillating because she wanted to. 387 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:48.000 She was vacillating between the possibilities of his guilt and 388 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:51.039 the possibilities of his innocence. And if he was innocent, 389 00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:54.480 she's doing him a great injustice. And this is important too. 390 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.680 She felt like if he was innocent, that some of 391 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:01.839 the things that she was saying about Bundy, she could 392 00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:06.880 harm him in his future together with her of not 393 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:10.160 just being able to be a lawyer, but but going 394 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:13.720 into politics because she thought that he is innocent, and 395 00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:17.359 this turns out to be someone else. Look what I've 396 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:20.920 done to his reputation. So she dealt with a lot, 397 00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:24.039 and a lot of people judge lives, and I think 398 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:27.599 in ways that they shouldn't by being flippant about this. 399 00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:31.599 You know, she should have this automatically and never gone 400 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:34.279 back on it. Just figured out it was them. And boy, 401 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:39.160