WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.399 --> 00:00:06.360 It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston Radio. 2 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:09.359 Thank you very much to call. I want our audience 3 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:12.000 to know for sure that they will be well served 4 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.359 by us tonight. This program will be much more exciting, 5 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:19.839 much more satisfying, and much more informative than any football 6 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:22.960 game anywhere in the United States of America tonight. And 7 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:26.920 I wasn't sure what Nicole was talking about, but don't 8 00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:29.320 even worry about that game, because it matters. Not. What 9 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:31.800 matters is all the great guests we have for you 10 00:00:31.879 --> 00:00:34.719 here on Nightside. My name is Dan Ray, and I 11 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:37.520 will take you all the way until midnight, and we 12 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:40.759 will talk with some great guests in the first hour, 13 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:44.679 and we'll talk later on tonight with the wz car 14 00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:47.600 guys from ten until midnight, which will give you an 15 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:50.320 opportunity to get all of your automotive questions answered. And 16 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:53.840 then we're going at nine o'clock talk about that horrific 17 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:57.000 attack that some of the guards up at the state 18 00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:01.280 prison in Lancaster, Massachusetts were objected to last night. We'll 19 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:03.920 get to all of that, but first I want to 20 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:06.359 remind you that Rob Brooks is back in the control 21 00:01:06.439 --> 00:01:09.319 room and he will take care of you when we 22 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:11.079 do get time to take phone calls. There are no 23 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:14.280 phone calls during the first hour, however, and the reason 24 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:15.959 for that is we have four great guests. We're going 25 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:19.000 to start off with Professor John Kelly. He is a 26 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.560 professor at Endicott College, which happens to be one of 27 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:26.480 my favorite colleges I think the most beautiful college campus 28 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:31.959 in maybe all of the country, never mind certainly here 29 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:34.599 in New England. Professor John Kelly, Welcome to Nightside. 30 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:37.760 How are you, hi, Dan, I'm very well, Thank you 31 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:40.319 very much. That's a great I agree with you about 32 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:42.000 our campus, a beautiful, beautiful place. 33 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:46.040 Well, it's also you know President Richard Wiley, or Dick 34 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:48.480 Wiley as we knew him. I was very close with 35 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:53.359 Professor Wiley actually delivered the commencement address at Endicott College 36 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:58.719 in two thousand and nine. Yes, and I you know, 37 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:01.200 I've been there on the campus many times. We've done 38 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:06.480 some talk the votes up there during election seasons pre COVID, Yes, absolutely, 39 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:12.080 gathered together unmasked. But so you're a psychology professor up 40 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:15.120 there and you have been there, Rob tells me for 41 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:18.000 close to a couple of decades. So if I've met 42 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:19.439 you at some point on campus. 43 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:23.479 I've seen you only you know in the audience. We 44 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:26.120 have not personally met before. But yeah, it's great to 45 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:27.960 meet you teleponically anyway. 46 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:32.599 Absolutely, So you are going to explain to us something 47 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:37.080 called the no cibo effect. It's sort of the opposite 48 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:42.000 of the plus ebo effect. You were quoted very prominently 49 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:45.800 in an article in the Washington Post about a month 50 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:49.479 and a half ago. And I think everybody knows what 51 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:51.960 a placebo is. If why don't you give us the 52 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:53.800 easy definition. 53 00:02:53.639 --> 00:03:00.120 Of a placebo. 54 00:02:57.240 --> 00:02:59.800 Because I think everyone knows what a placebo is, and 55 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:02.599 I think that will set up the explanation of the 56 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:04.759 no cebo very well if you don't. 57 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:07.840 Mind, well, sure, I mean, placebo really is just any 58 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:10.520 kind of treatment it can be. Usually people think of 59 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:13.159 it as a pill with really no active ingredient. It 60 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:16.319 could have sugar in it. More often it has cellulocin 61 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.120 itch or something very inert that is used often in 62 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:23.280 randomized control trials to determine whether the real drug actually 63 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:26.439 works better than what would happen if the person takes 64 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:29.879 the drug and has positive expectancies and expecting to do 65 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:32.639 well even though they're not getting a real drug they 66 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:36.159 think they might be, and they often show dramatic improvement. 67 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:39.000 So that's a placebo effect essentially, and so it's. 68 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:42.919 All in the mind, it's not within the physical system. 69 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:45.520 Well, that's very interesting that you say. I mean that's 70 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:47.919 the way we kind of think about it. The way 71 00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:49.560 I just describe it, it sounds like it's sort of 72 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:52.039 all in your head, which makes one think, oh, it's 73 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:54.439 not a real phenomenon. It's kind of fague and if 74 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:55.879 it's for a period of time. That was the way 75 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:57.719 it was thought about, But there has been a lot 76 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.520 of research to show that there are real physic theological 77 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:03.039 changes that occur for people. And if you think about it, 78 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:06.759 I think psychology, yes, it's something's happening in the mind. 79 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:09.879 But the mind is, you know, is a part of 80 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:11.919 the brain, a part of the body, so it's all connected, 81 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:14.520 and so if you have a feel like you're doing better, 82 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:16.319 there are actual physiological changes. 83 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:21.120 Sure, Okay, So a no Sebel effect is the flip 84 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:24.240 side of it. This is not something that happens in 85 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:30.000 regularly scheduled tests, but this is something that some of 86 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.920 us go through. And why don't you explain it? What 87 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:35.399 the no Sebel effect. 88 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:38.040 Is sure, and I would argue that we all experience 89 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:40.000 this in one way or the other, both no cibo 90 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:43.439 and placebo effects. I also will just say, just to 91 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:47.279 preface this, that not only could this occur in reference 92 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:49.839 to an inert treatment, you know, a sugar pill, but 93 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:52.800 it can also occur with real treatments. That real treatments 94 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:55.560 could be the effects of them, could be increased or 95 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.720 decreased through psychological mechanisms. But anyway, the no sebo effect, 96 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:01.959 some people think about it as sort of the dark 97 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:04.720 side of the placebo, the evil twin of placebo, And 98 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:08.720 it's basically just the notion that if you take a treatment, 99 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:10.959 even if it's a placebo, but even if it's a 100 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.079 real treatment, and you hear about some negative side effects, 101 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.279 that you may experience those side effects, maybe because the 102 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:21.839 drugs causing it, but the no cbo effect would because 103 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:25.439 of this sort of mind body situation where you are 104 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:29.000 thinking about you have a negative expectancy, and that produces 105 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:32.560 the symptoms that we call the no cibo effect. 106 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:38.319 So this to me shows pretty clearly how powerful our 107 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.920 minds are and how we can be I mean, some 108 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:44.279 of us suffer from how closely Is this related to 109 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:48.199 just people who are generally more anxious than other people. 110 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:49.879 I don't know if there's been a study done, is 111 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:51.040 there a correlation there. 112 00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:55.600 Well, there's been a lot of search for who is 113 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:58.720 the placebo responder, who is a no CIBO responder, And 114 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.399 I would say, I'm sure that there's their variabilities and 115 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:03.120 this sort of thing. But I think let me give 116 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:05.480 an example of what you could consider a no CBO 117 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:08.360 effect in a sense, Like an example of this would 118 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:11.160 be if you are exercising. You know, it's hard for 119 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:13.959 people sometimes they're working out, and if they're staring at 120 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:16.160 the clock, you know, waiting for it to be over, 121 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:19.199 it's much more painful than if you distract yourself. If 122 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:22.480 you're paying attention to a movie that's very engaging, the 123 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:25.319 pain seems like it's less than it would otherwise be, 124 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:30.680 even though you're experiencing the exact same sort of physiological challenge. 125 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:33.120 So our mind has an effect, you know, depending on 126 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:34.560 whether we're focusing on the pain. 127 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:37.439 You know, it's funny. I probably must be the exception 128 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:39.839 to the rule because when I work out and I'm 129 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:45.680 an elliptical guys, you stop eventually running and pounding knees 130 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:47.839 and ankles, and you get to the elliptical, which is 131 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.879 a great machine. I love the mathematics of the elliptical 132 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:54.839 because I don't know if you're an elliptical guy yourself, 133 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:55.519 but I. 134 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:57.759 Have used them quite a bit. I'm similarly to you. 135 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:01.720 No more running and all stationary bike, ellipticals, that kind 136 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:02.040 of stuff. 137 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:04.920 That's right. So, but but what I try to do is, Okay, 138 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:08.279 what's my projection. I've gone, you know, ten minutes here, 139 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:10.959 I'm gonna go twenty five, I'm gonna go thirty and 140 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:15.360 when I change and I move the resistance up or whatever. Okay, 141 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:18.920 how many? How many can I do more calories during 142 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:22.879 this five minute period? All of that, and it's my 143 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:27.720 mind stays active. I don't, you know, I don't put 144 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:30.319 your plugs in. I don't. I don't watch a movie, 145 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:32.600 you know, just the gym that I work out, and 146 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:35.480 it's a small gym, and there's no there's no TVs, 147 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.959 there's no movies. So I keep my mind active, which 148 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:41.879 helps the time go more quickly. But I do it 149 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:45.920 by doing mental mathematical gymnastics, which. 150 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:48.399 Yeah, and you're but your your focus then is on 151 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:52.160 the mental mathematical gymnastics, right, not on the pain itself. 152 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:55.759 You're and in fact, you're you're kind of almost wanting 153 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:58.000 to put yourself through more pain to achieve something. It's 154 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:01.000 like a runner, who's how do they, you know, keep going? Well, 155 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:03.160 they have this goal in mind and their mind is 156 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:05.399 focused on this and there it doesn't you know, the 157 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:08.519 example of going and not thinking about it all, Like 158 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:11.240 you know, a movie is one way to distract yourself 159 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:15.399 or at least turn your attention edit to a different way. 160 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:20.199 Yeah, yeah, well, look, it's interesting. I didn't I had 161 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:23.399 never heard of the nosibo effect. Based upon my conversation 162 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:28.240 with you, this is an effect that's not new. It's 163 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:30.560 been apparently around for a while, but this is the 164 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.200 first big article that I've ever read on it. And 165 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:36.000 you were quoted prominently in the Washington Post, and you've 166 00:08:36.039 --> 00:08:38.399 explained it really well for me and for my audience, 167 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:40.879 and so thank you very much. And it's always great 168 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:45.320 to reconnect with Entercot College, which has the best in 169 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:50.120 addition to the best landscape and views of the Atlantic Ocean, 170 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:55.240 it also has the single best college student cafeteria, and 171 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:56.679 I've been to a lot of them. 172 00:08:56.879 --> 00:08:58.919 Of any truly astounding. 173 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:03.120 Yes, and that, of course that is the part of 174 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:05.600 the legacy of doctor Wiley. 175 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:09.000 Absolutely a wonderful person. Yes, absolutely, yeah. 176 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:11.720 Well I look, next time i'm up that way, I'll stop. 177 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:14.159 I'll look for you. I'll make a point to shake 178 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:15.759 your hand, come up to you. Thank you very much 179 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:17.399 for I had. 180 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:19.519 An uncle named John Kelly, so we may somehow be 181 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:20.120 related to you. 182 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:22.519 By the way, I think everyone has an uncle named 183 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:23.039 John Kelly. 184 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:26.440 That's true. In this neck of the woods, it's fairly common. 185 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:28.080 Absolutely. 186 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:29.960 All right, thank you so much, professor. 187 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:31.480 You're welcome. Thank you. 188 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:34.159 I have a great night. Okay, So we were talking 189 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:38.120 about the no seeble effect. Well we're going to kind 190 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.279 of stay in the in the mind a little bit. 191 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:44.559 We're going to talk with Richard Sema. He's a neuroscientist. 192 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:49.799 We're getting pretty pretty psychological tonight here, a neuroscientist turned 193 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:53.799 science journalist who writes the Brain Matters column for the 194 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:56.679 Washington Post. So we're sticking with the Washington Post tonight, 195 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:00.279 and he's going to talk about intellectual humility is for 196 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.279 learning and getting along with others. I like that. We'll 197 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:07.000 talk to him right after this quick break here on Nightside. 198 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:10.759 Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World 199 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:14.039 Nightside Studios. I'm WBZ News Radio. 200 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:17.080 Okay, so we talked about the no Seebele effect with 201 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:21.120 Professor John Kelly of Endicott College. We now are delighted 202 00:10:21.159 --> 00:10:24.960 to welcome to the Nightside microphone Richard Seema. He's a 203 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:29.840 neuroscientist turned science journalist who writes the Brain Matters column 204 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:34.879 for The Washington Post. And intellectual humility is good for 205 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:38.240 learning and getting along with others. I don't think anyone 206 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:42.200 would argue with that, but let's give it a shot. Hi, Hi, Richard, 207 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:42.960 how are you tonight? 208 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:44.559 Doing well? 209 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:44.960 How are you? 210 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:49.039 I'm doing great. So intellectual humility, it sounds like a 211 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:50.960 good thing to have, and I think it is. I 212 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:55.679 read this column. Explain to us how you get it? 213 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:59.320 What percentages of people have any of it? And to 214 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:01.080 have some of it? How do you keep it in 215 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:01.879 this day and age. 216 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:06.840 Yeah, I mean, it's basically the acknowledgment that you know, 217 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:10.600 no one, including ourselves, knows everything. We have limits to 218 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:14.720 our knowledge or even our deepest hell beliefs can be valuable. 219 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:15.679 And just being. 220 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:18.320 Open to the fact that you know other people might 221 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:20.759 know some things that you don't or that things that 222 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.399 you believe maybe wrong. I think it's hard to. 223 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.279 You mean both you mean that both you and I 224 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:29.559 are are fallible. 225 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:34.919 Yeah, it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate, you know, But maybe I'm 226 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:40.120 wrong about that. Maybe you aren't valuable, very very likely. 227 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:43.279 Yeah, here's my ideal, Richard. I get to do a 228 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:45.919 talk show four five nights away, four hours a night, 229 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:48.559 and when I make a mistake on the show, I 230 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:51.240 go out of my way fact particularly a factual mistake. 231 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:54.000 I go out and to acknowledge it. I think that's 232 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:55.159 really healthy. 233 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.519 Yeah, I agree, you know. 234 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.440 I just think that it's a good idea. It's tougher, 235 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:05.759 I think when you're in personal relationships. So let's let's 236 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:11.360 talk about, you know, factual fallibility and then which is 237 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:13.840 pretty fine if you know, if you mentioned to me 238 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:16.679 or I mentioned to you that that I'm delighted that 239 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.000 we have forty eight states, and I have forgotten about 240 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:23.679 the last time I look it up, it's easier to say, 241 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:26.159 you know, Richie, you were right, I forgot. But what 242 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:29.480 do you do? How do you develop this when you're 243 00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:33.840 in a contentious conversation. If idea, say about politics, or 244 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.919 maybe a personal matter with a member of your family. 245 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:40.440 How how how do you back out of it gracefully? 246 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:44.279 What's the best I think? Yeah, I spoke with a 247 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:47.519 bunch of experts who study intellectual humility, and you know, 248 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:52.039 they told me that basically, it's it's it's helpful because 249 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:55.240 it keeps you open to other people's perspectives. You're more 250 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.080 likely to be empathetic to the fact that others have 251 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.200 maybe different values or different things that you know they 252 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:07.039 find important to believe in. And yeah, this topic of 253 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:10.799 you know, what happens in a politically contentious environment or conversation, 254 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:14.240 which is very common these days, is like part of 255 00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:16.279 it is keeping in mind what your goal is for 256 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.960 this conversation, Like is it about proving yourself right and 257 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:23.600 you know, dominating another person in conversation or is it like, oh, 258 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.279 you know, you're a family member that I still care about, 259 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:28.879 even if we don't see eye to eye on any 260 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:33.039 like something that's important to both of us. But you know, 261 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:36.759 I think what intellectual humility can give us is you 262 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:40.360 don't go into a conversation like already you know, you know, 263 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:43.799 set against someone like you you may believe you're right 264 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:47.360 and you may have many reasons or any really good reasons, 265 00:13:47.720 --> 00:13:50.440 but you know you can, you know, be open to 266 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:53.440 that there's something that you might miss. It doesn't mean 267 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.679 you have to change your mind, but means you have 268 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.840 to at least give them an opportunity to not you know, 269 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:03.799 just come in like swinging with all your rhetoric arguments. 270 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:09.000 Yeah, commit commit like and there's dare I say, like 271 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:09.720 Hal Colgan? 272 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:16.279 Yeah, well I guess for Cogan that's your job and 273 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:18.960 you can do it in that context. But yeah, like 274 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:20.879 you know, take a moment where like what what do 275 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:24.519 you want out of this? Like, you know, and. 276 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:31.159 That Richard, you sound like a really reasonable guy. I 277 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:33.600 like to think you're fairly reasonable, but you sound much 278 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:38.559 more reasonable than do you actually you the column, the 279 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:43.039 article that you wrote was fascinating. Do you have you 280 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.080 adopted that in your own life? I mean, and I'm 281 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:47.879 not trying to be a wise guy when I asked. 282 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:50.799 That question, No, no, no, I think you've got to come. 283 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:53.639 To something like that. Naturally, don't you would you agree 284 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:53.840 or no? 285 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:55.519 Well? 286 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:59.679 I think what's interesting is the research shows that yeah, 287 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:02.720 you know, people are on a spectrum of how likely 288 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:06.360 there are to be intill actually humble, but for different topics, 289 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:09.960 like if you're looking at religion versus science, or you know, 290 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:13.200 culture like best sports team. You know, people vary, right, 291 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:17.120 Like some things, it's very easy to you know, acknowledge that, 292 00:15:17.600 --> 00:15:20.799 you know, the Boston Red Sox are, you know, like 293 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:22.919 they're great, but maybe they're not the best. And but 294 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:26.720 that's harder for other people knowledge. I know, I know, 295 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:34.600 I know, I did no, no, no. But but that's 296 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.000 the thing, right, It's like there's certain places that we 297 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:41.960 you know, maybe more susceptible to you know, not being 298 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.960 open to other perspectives, but you know, even just keeping 299 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:46.919 like the door is slightly cracked open. 300 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:50.919 You know what I love. I love the piece, but 301 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:55.320 I loved the paragraph. And you probably can anticipate what 302 00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:59.080 I'm going to say to you. We're talking about it. 303 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:03.240 A study in twenty nineteen of almost what almost twelve 304 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:08.279 hundred subjects and one of the experiments I'm quoting from 305 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:11.200 your column here so and acknowledging you had. One experiment 306 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:15.519 asked participants to rake their familiarities with pieces of general knowledge, 307 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:20.440 for example Napoleon. Crucially, however, in the experiment they also 308 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:28.080 mixed in fictitious items, for example, Queen Shattuck Murphy's last ride. Yeah, 309 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:32.759 so they were people old Murphy's last ride. I learned 310 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:37.720 about that in the seventh grade. That's that's brilliant. And 311 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:42.120 so there were people who actually were claiming that they 312 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.360 were familiar with, you know, Queen Shaddock who never existed. 313 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:50.559 That is not yeah person, yeah and no, And like 314 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:53.759 the study basically was fine name that, Yeah, you are 315 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:58.240 not only are people who rated to be were rated 316 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:01.879 to be more intellectually humble, like more knowledgeable about real things, 317 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:04.680 but they were less likely to overclaim that they knew 318 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:08.079 something that you know is fictitious. And you know, I 319 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:11.319 think that's important because it also opens us to learning 320 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:13.559 about new things or more curious, but also maybe more 321 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:17.839 discerning about how you process information. Just keeping yourself open 322 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:20.559 to yeah, the fact that you don't know everything. You'll 323 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:24.319 always encounter new stuff, and you know, it's it's up 324 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:27.640 to us to be like mindful about you know, what 325 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:28.799 we know and what we believe. 326 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:31.839 I think that there was a quote from Albert Einstein, 327 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:33.759 and I don't know if this was a neat quote 328 00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:35.319 or if this was a real quote, but it sounded 329 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.920 it sounded pretty good Ifstein reportedly said that he wasn't 330 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:45.640 especially intelligent, but he had an unending curiosity, which I thought, 331 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:47.799 is even if it's made up, is a It's a 332 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:50.640 great way to look at life, be a little humble 333 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:54.200 if Albert Einstein can say something like that. He said, 334 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:59.799 and I think curiosity is the uh is Now again 335 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:01.839 I'm little biased to because I happen to consider me 336 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:06.839 I'm really curious. That is a sign of intelligence, not 337 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:10.960 necessarily a high IQ per se. But I think people 338 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:16.640 who are intellectually curious are more interesting, uh and they 339 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:18.680 have a wider breath of knowledge. I mean, when you 340 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.799 sit on an airplane, Richard, and I sit next to you, 341 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:25.680 do you, like just put your headphones on or do 342 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:29.240 you start a conversation? Because I'm the conversation guy, I'm 343 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:31.039 going to say, hey, what's going on? 344 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:35.960 Honestly depends if I'm to be honest, Like sometimes I 345 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:39.359 just need my own alone time. But yeah, Like, I mean, 346 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.119 that's the beauty of such a dast world as ours, 347 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.799 with so many different people with different experiences, right, Like 348 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.160 everyone can teach you something and you never know what 349 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:52.319 might change your life just from a random conversation with 350 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:53.880 your you know, neighbor. 351 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:57.920 Because I believe this. You know, everybody talks about what 352 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:01.359 what's your IQ and what's the IQ you're intelligent, emotion 353 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.400 and all that. I think we have like twenty different 354 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:12.319 areas of intelligence artistic, mechanical, you know, agility, intellectual, all 355 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:14.160 of that. I just think that this whole thing about 356 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.920 measuring someone's IQ and saying, okay, you're one oh five 357 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.000 or your T one twenty five. You see this with presidents, 358 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:22.799 who was the smartest president and all of that. 359 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:24.720 Yeah, I just think that's. 360 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:28.160 A huge waste of time because I have no mechanical ability. 361 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:32.279 I have no musical ability, I have no artistic ability. 362 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:35.559 I know my limitations. Okay, I got a couple of 363 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:38.000 areas where I'm pretty good, but that's it. That's it. 364 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.119 Yeah, But don't don't overlimit yourself either, Like you're also 365 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.839 a capacity. You have capacity to learn and tick up 366 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:46.279 new things. And even if you don't become the best 367 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:49.559 at you know, being a woodworker or an artist, you 368 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:52.759 can still gain something from the active trying it out, 369 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:54.680 like enjoying the process. 370 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:55.200 And you know, learning. 371 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:57.160 So don't get yourself out either. 372 00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:58.200 I would say I. 373 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.839 Also think I get what you're saying, yeah, but I 374 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:04.960 also think that a lot of us who are overly 375 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:09.599 formally educated. I'm a lawyer as well as a practicing 376 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.359 journalist for many years, and a lot of my colleagues 377 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.480 I sense that they look down at the blue collar person. 378 00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:20.359 I'm somebody who really believes in vocational schools. Not everybody 379 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:25.799 is wired to do four years as in college. And 380 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:30.079 that is also the IQ thing going on there, and again, 381 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:32.200 I'd probably love to talk to you about it more 382 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:35.960 because I think that we need to value different people 383 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:37.640 for different things. I mean, when you need a plumber, 384 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:45.839 you need a plumber. Don't tell me you don't need 385 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.440 an archaeology major. You need a plumber. 386 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.160 And I think that's that's the strength of the society 387 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:55.640 will live in right that we have, you know, such 388 00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:59.000 diversity of talents, but also ways of hopefully training them 389 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:01.039 to get the best that we can, so we could 390 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:03.680 rely on each other to cover stuff that I don't 391 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.440 know how to do or I don't know anything about, right, 392 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:09.160 And that's you know, something that we need to keep 393 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:12.119 in mind, I think, and being intellectually humble makes it 394 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:13.240 more easy. 395 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:13.480 To accept that. 396 00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:15.519 Oh yeah, I don't know how to you know, like 397 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.519 stop my toilet from overflowing. I need someone else who 398 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:20.680 can do this faster, keeper and all that. 399 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:24.640 Yeah, you might have two or three degrees the other thing. 400 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:26.039 And I'm going to be real quick with you that 401 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:28.279