Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston Radio.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much to call. I want our audience
Speaker 2: to know for sure that they will be well served
Speaker 2: by us tonight. This program will be much more exciting,
Speaker 2: much more satisfying, and much more informative than any football
Speaker 2: game anywhere in the United States of America tonight. And
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure what Nicole was talking about, but don't
Speaker 2: even worry about that game, because it matters. Not. What
Speaker 2: matters is all the great guests we have for you
Speaker 2: here on Nightside. My name is Dan Ray, and I
Speaker 2: will take you all the way until midnight, and we
Speaker 2: will talk with some great guests in the first hour,
Speaker 2: and we'll talk later on tonight with the wz car
Speaker 2: guys from ten until midnight, which will give you an
Speaker 2: opportunity to get all of your automotive questions answered. And
Speaker 2: then we're going at nine o'clock talk about that horrific
Speaker 2: attack that some of the guards up at the state
Speaker 2: prison in Lancaster, Massachusetts were objected to last night. We'll
Speaker 2: get to all of that, but first I want to
Speaker 2: remind you that Rob Brooks is back in the control
Speaker 2: room and he will take care of you when we
Speaker 2: do get time to take phone calls. There are no
Speaker 2: phone calls during the first hour, however, and the reason
Speaker 2: for that is we have four great guests. We're going
Speaker 2: to start off with Professor John Kelly. He is a
Speaker 2: professor at Endicott College, which happens to be one of
Speaker 2: my favorite colleges I think the most beautiful college campus
Speaker 2: in maybe all of the country, never mind certainly here
Speaker 2: in New England. Professor John Kelly, Welcome to Nightside.
Speaker 3: How are you, hi, Dan, I'm very well, Thank you
Speaker 3: very much. That's a great I agree with you about
Speaker 3: our campus, a beautiful, beautiful place.
Speaker 2: Well, it's also you know President Richard Wiley, or Dick
Speaker 2: Wiley as we knew him. I was very close with
Speaker 2: Professor Wiley actually delivered the commencement address at Endicott College
Speaker 2: in two thousand and nine. Yes, and I you know,
Speaker 2: I've been there on the campus many times. We've done
Speaker 2: some talk the votes up there during election seasons pre COVID, Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 2: gathered together unmasked. But so you're a psychology professor up
Speaker 2: there and you have been there, Rob tells me for
Speaker 2: close to a couple of decades. So if I've met
Speaker 2: you at some point on campus.
Speaker 3: I've seen you only you know in the audience. We
Speaker 3: have not personally met before. But yeah, it's great to
Speaker 3: meet you teleponically anyway.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So you are going to explain to us something
Speaker 2: called the no cibo effect. It's sort of the opposite
Speaker 2: of the plus ebo effect. You were quoted very prominently
Speaker 2: in an article in the Washington Post about a month
Speaker 2: and a half ago. And I think everybody knows what
Speaker 2: a placebo is. If why don't you give us the
Speaker 2: easy definition.
Speaker 3: Of a placebo.
Speaker 2: Because I think everyone knows what a placebo is, and
Speaker 2: I think that will set up the explanation of the
Speaker 2: no cebo very well if you don't.
Speaker 3: Mind, well, sure, I mean, placebo really is just any
Speaker 3: kind of treatment it can be. Usually people think of
Speaker 3: it as a pill with really no active ingredient. It
Speaker 3: could have sugar in it. More often it has cellulocin
Speaker 3: itch or something very inert that is used often in
Speaker 3: randomized control trials to determine whether the real drug actually
Speaker 3: works better than what would happen if the person takes
Speaker 3: the drug and has positive expectancies and expecting to do
Speaker 3: well even though they're not getting a real drug they
Speaker 3: think they might be, and they often show dramatic improvement.
Speaker 3: So that's a placebo effect essentially, and so it's.
Speaker 2: All in the mind, it's not within the physical system.
Speaker 3: Well, that's very interesting that you say. I mean that's
Speaker 3: the way we kind of think about it. The way
Speaker 3: I just describe it, it sounds like it's sort of
Speaker 3: all in your head, which makes one think, oh, it's
Speaker 3: not a real phenomenon. It's kind of fague and if
Speaker 3: it's for a period of time. That was the way
Speaker 3: it was thought about, But there has been a lot
Speaker 3: of research to show that there are real physic theological
Speaker 3: changes that occur for people. And if you think about it,
Speaker 3: I think psychology, yes, it's something's happening in the mind.
Speaker 3: But the mind is, you know, is a part of
Speaker 3: the brain, a part of the body, so it's all connected,
Speaker 3: and so if you have a feel like you're doing better,
Speaker 3: there are actual physiological changes.
Speaker 2: Sure, Okay, So a no Sebel effect is the flip
Speaker 2: side of it. This is not something that happens in
Speaker 2: regularly scheduled tests, but this is something that some of
Speaker 2: us go through. And why don't you explain it? What
Speaker 2: the no Sebel effect.
Speaker 3: Is sure, and I would argue that we all experience
Speaker 3: this in one way or the other, both no cibo
Speaker 3: and placebo effects. I also will just say, just to
Speaker 3: preface this, that not only could this occur in reference
Speaker 3: to an inert treatment, you know, a sugar pill, but
Speaker 3: it can also occur with real treatments. That real treatments
Speaker 3: could be the effects of them, could be increased or
Speaker 3: decreased through psychological mechanisms. But anyway, the no sebo effect,
Speaker 3: some people think about it as sort of the dark
Speaker 3: side of the placebo, the evil twin of placebo, And
Speaker 3: it's basically just the notion that if you take a treatment,
Speaker 3: even if it's a placebo, but even if it's a
Speaker 3: real treatment, and you hear about some negative side effects,
Speaker 3: that you may experience those side effects, maybe because the
Speaker 3: drugs causing it, but the no cbo effect would because
Speaker 3: of this sort of mind body situation where you are
Speaker 3: thinking about you have a negative expectancy, and that produces
Speaker 3: the symptoms that we call the no cibo effect.
Speaker 2: So this to me shows pretty clearly how powerful our
Speaker 2: minds are and how we can be I mean, some
Speaker 2: of us suffer from how closely Is this related to
Speaker 2: just people who are generally more anxious than other people.
Speaker 2: I don't know if there's been a study done, is
Speaker 2: there a correlation there.
Speaker 3: Well, there's been a lot of search for who is
Speaker 3: the placebo responder, who is a no CIBO responder, And
Speaker 3: I would say, I'm sure that there's their variabilities and
Speaker 3: this sort of thing. But I think let me give
Speaker 3: an example of what you could consider a no CBO
Speaker 3: effect in a sense, Like an example of this would
Speaker 3: be if you are exercising. You know, it's hard for
Speaker 3: people sometimes they're working out, and if they're staring at
Speaker 3: the clock, you know, waiting for it to be over,
Speaker 3: it's much more painful than if you distract yourself. If
Speaker 3: you're paying attention to a movie that's very engaging, the
Speaker 3: pain seems like it's less than it would otherwise be,
Speaker 3: even though you're experiencing the exact same sort of physiological challenge.
Speaker 3: So our mind has an effect, you know, depending on
Speaker 3: whether we're focusing on the pain.
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. I probably must be the exception
Speaker 2: to the rule because when I work out and I'm
Speaker 2: an elliptical guys, you stop eventually running and pounding knees
Speaker 2: and ankles, and you get to the elliptical, which is
Speaker 2: a great machine. I love the mathematics of the elliptical
Speaker 2: because I don't know if you're an elliptical guy yourself,
Speaker 2: but I.
Speaker 3: Have used them quite a bit. I'm similarly to you.
Speaker 3: No more running and all stationary bike, ellipticals, that kind
Speaker 3: of stuff.
Speaker 2: That's right. So, but but what I try to do is, Okay,
Speaker 2: what's my projection. I've gone, you know, ten minutes here,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go twenty five, I'm gonna go thirty and
Speaker 2: when I change and I move the resistance up or whatever. Okay,
Speaker 2: how many? How many can I do more calories during
Speaker 2: this five minute period? All of that, and it's my
Speaker 2: mind stays active. I don't, you know, I don't put
Speaker 2: your plugs in. I don't. I don't watch a movie,
Speaker 2: you know, just the gym that I work out, and
Speaker 2: it's a small gym, and there's no there's no TVs,
Speaker 2: there's no movies. So I keep my mind active, which
Speaker 2: helps the time go more quickly. But I do it
Speaker 2: by doing mental mathematical gymnastics, which.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're but your your focus then is on
Speaker 3: the mental mathematical gymnastics, right, not on the pain itself.
Speaker 3: You're and in fact, you're you're kind of almost wanting
Speaker 3: to put yourself through more pain to achieve something. It's
Speaker 3: like a runner, who's how do they, you know, keep going? Well,
Speaker 3: they have this goal in mind and their mind is
Speaker 3: focused on this and there it doesn't you know, the
Speaker 3: example of going and not thinking about it all, Like
Speaker 3: you know, a movie is one way to distract yourself
Speaker 3: or at least turn your attention edit to a different way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, look, it's interesting. I didn't I had
Speaker 2: never heard of the nosibo effect. Based upon my conversation
Speaker 2: with you, this is an effect that's not new. It's
Speaker 2: been apparently around for a while, but this is the
Speaker 2: first big article that I've ever read on it. And
Speaker 2: you were quoted prominently in the Washington Post, and you've
Speaker 2: explained it really well for me and for my audience,
Speaker 2: and so thank you very much. And it's always great
Speaker 2: to reconnect with Entercot College, which has the best in
Speaker 2: addition to the best landscape and views of the Atlantic Ocean,
Speaker 2: it also has the single best college student cafeteria, and
Speaker 2: I've been to a lot of them.
Speaker 3: Of any truly astounding.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that, of course that is the part of
Speaker 2: the legacy of doctor Wiley.
Speaker 3: Absolutely a wonderful person. Yes, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 2: Well I look, next time i'm up that way, I'll stop.
Speaker 3: I'll look for you. I'll make a point to shake
Speaker 3: your hand, come up to you. Thank you very much
Speaker 3: for I had.
Speaker 2: An uncle named John Kelly, so we may somehow be
Speaker 2: related to you.
Speaker 3: By the way, I think everyone has an uncle named
Speaker 3: John Kelly.
Speaker 2: That's true. In this neck of the woods, it's fairly common.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: All right, thank you so much, professor.
Speaker 3: You're welcome. Thank you.
Speaker 2: I have a great night. Okay, So we were talking
Speaker 2: about the no seeble effect. Well we're going to kind
Speaker 2: of stay in the in the mind a little bit.
Speaker 2: We're going to talk with Richard Sema. He's a neuroscientist.
Speaker 2: We're getting pretty pretty psychological tonight here, a neuroscientist turned
Speaker 2: science journalist who writes the Brain Matters column for the
Speaker 2: Washington Post. So we're sticking with the Washington Post tonight,
Speaker 2: and he's going to talk about intellectual humility is for
Speaker 2: learning and getting along with others. I like that. We'll
Speaker 2: talk to him right after this quick break here on Nightside.
Speaker 1: Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Speaker 1: Nightside Studios. I'm WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we talked about the no Seebele effect with
Speaker 2: Professor John Kelly of Endicott College. We now are delighted
Speaker 2: to welcome to the Nightside microphone Richard Seema. He's a
Speaker 2: neuroscientist turned science journalist who writes the Brain Matters column
Speaker 2: for The Washington Post. And intellectual humility is good for
Speaker 2: learning and getting along with others. I don't think anyone
Speaker 2: would argue with that, but let's give it a shot. Hi, Hi, Richard,
Speaker 2: how are you tonight?
Speaker 4: Doing well?
Speaker 5: How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm doing great. So intellectual humility, it sounds like a
Speaker 2: good thing to have, and I think it is. I
Speaker 2: read this column. Explain to us how you get it?
Speaker 2: What percentages of people have any of it? And to
Speaker 2: have some of it? How do you keep it in
Speaker 2: this day and age.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's basically the acknowledgment that you know,
Speaker 4: no one, including ourselves, knows everything. We have limits to
Speaker 4: our knowledge or even our deepest hell beliefs can be valuable.
Speaker 5: And just being.
Speaker 4: Open to the fact that you know other people might
Speaker 4: know some things that you don't or that things that
Speaker 4: you believe maybe wrong. I think it's hard to.
Speaker 2: You mean both you mean that both you and I
Speaker 2: are are fallible.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's unfortunate. It's unfortunate, you know, But maybe I'm
Speaker 4: wrong about that. Maybe you aren't valuable, very very likely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's my ideal, Richard. I get to do a
Speaker 2: talk show four five nights away, four hours a night,
Speaker 2: and when I make a mistake on the show, I
Speaker 2: go out of my way fact particularly a factual mistake.
Speaker 2: I go out and to acknowledge it. I think that's
Speaker 2: really healthy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree, you know.
Speaker 2: I just think that it's a good idea. It's tougher,
Speaker 2: I think when you're in personal relationships. So let's let's
Speaker 2: talk about, you know, factual fallibility and then which is
Speaker 2: pretty fine if you know, if you mentioned to me
Speaker 2: or I mentioned to you that that I'm delighted that
Speaker 2: we have forty eight states, and I have forgotten about
Speaker 2: the last time I look it up, it's easier to say,
Speaker 2: you know, Richie, you were right, I forgot. But what
Speaker 2: do you do? How do you develop this when you're
Speaker 2: in a contentious conversation. If idea, say about politics, or
Speaker 2: maybe a personal matter with a member of your family.
Speaker 2: How how how do you back out of it gracefully?
Speaker 4: What's the best I think? Yeah, I spoke with a
Speaker 4: bunch of experts who study intellectual humility, and you know,
Speaker 4: they told me that basically, it's it's it's helpful because
Speaker 4: it keeps you open to other people's perspectives. You're more
Speaker 4: likely to be empathetic to the fact that others have
Speaker 4: maybe different values or different things that you know they
Speaker 4: find important to believe in. And yeah, this topic of
Speaker 4: you know, what happens in a politically contentious environment or conversation,
Speaker 4: which is very common these days, is like part of
Speaker 4: it is keeping in mind what your goal is for
Speaker 4: this conversation, Like is it about proving yourself right and
Speaker 4: you know, dominating another person in conversation or is it like, oh,
Speaker 4: you know, you're a family member that I still care about,
Speaker 4: even if we don't see eye to eye on any
Speaker 4: like something that's important to both of us. But you know,
Speaker 4: I think what intellectual humility can give us is you
Speaker 4: don't go into a conversation like already you know, you know,
Speaker 4: set against someone like you you may believe you're right
Speaker 4: and you may have many reasons or any really good reasons,
Speaker 4: but you know you can, you know, be open to
Speaker 4: that there's something that you might miss. It doesn't mean
Speaker 4: you have to change your mind, but means you have
Speaker 4: to at least give them an opportunity to not you know,
Speaker 4: just come in like swinging with all your rhetoric arguments.
Speaker 2: Yeah, commit commit like and there's dare I say, like
Speaker 2: Hal Colgan?
Speaker 4: Yeah, well I guess for Cogan that's your job and
Speaker 4: you can do it in that context. But yeah, like
Speaker 4: you know, take a moment where like what what do
Speaker 4: you want out of this? Like, you know, and.
Speaker 2: That Richard, you sound like a really reasonable guy. I
Speaker 2: like to think you're fairly reasonable, but you sound much
Speaker 2: more reasonable than do you actually you the column, the
Speaker 2: article that you wrote was fascinating. Do you have you
Speaker 2: adopted that in your own life? I mean, and I'm
Speaker 2: not trying to be a wise guy when I asked.
Speaker 6: That question, No, no, no, I think you've got to come.
Speaker 2: To something like that. Naturally, don't you would you agree
Speaker 2: or no?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 4: I think what's interesting is the research shows that yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, people are on a spectrum of how likely
Speaker 4: there are to be intill actually humble, but for different topics,
Speaker 4: like if you're looking at religion versus science, or you know,
Speaker 4: culture like best sports team. You know, people vary, right,
Speaker 4: Like some things, it's very easy to you know, acknowledge that,
Speaker 4: you know, the Boston Red Sox are, you know, like
Speaker 4: they're great, but maybe they're not the best. And but
Speaker 4: that's harder for other people knowledge. I know, I know,
Speaker 4: I know, I did no, no, no. But but that's
Speaker 4: the thing, right, It's like there's certain places that we
Speaker 4: you know, maybe more susceptible to you know, not being
Speaker 4: open to other perspectives, but you know, even just keeping
Speaker 4: like the door is slightly cracked open.
Speaker 2: You know what I love. I love the piece, but
Speaker 2: I loved the paragraph. And you probably can anticipate what
Speaker 2: I'm going to say to you. We're talking about it.
Speaker 2: A study in twenty nineteen of almost what almost twelve
Speaker 2: hundred subjects and one of the experiments I'm quoting from
Speaker 2: your column here so and acknowledging you had. One experiment
Speaker 2: asked participants to rake their familiarities with pieces of general knowledge,
Speaker 2: for example Napoleon. Crucially, however, in the experiment they also
Speaker 2: mixed in fictitious items, for example, Queen Shattuck Murphy's last ride. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so they were people old Murphy's last ride. I learned
Speaker 2: about that in the seventh grade. That's that's brilliant. And
Speaker 2: so there were people who actually were claiming that they
Speaker 2: were familiar with, you know, Queen Shaddock who never existed.
Speaker 4: That is not yeah person, yeah and no, And like
Speaker 4: the study basically was fine name that, Yeah, you are
Speaker 4: not only are people who rated to be were rated
Speaker 4: to be more intellectually humble, like more knowledgeable about real things,
Speaker 4: but they were less likely to overclaim that they knew
Speaker 4: something that you know is fictitious. And you know, I
Speaker 4: think that's important because it also opens us to learning
Speaker 4: about new things or more curious, but also maybe more
Speaker 4: discerning about how you process information. Just keeping yourself open
Speaker 4: to yeah, the fact that you don't know everything. You'll
Speaker 4: always encounter new stuff, and you know, it's it's up
Speaker 4: to us to be like mindful about you know, what
Speaker 4: we know and what we believe.
Speaker 2: I think that there was a quote from Albert Einstein,
Speaker 2: and I don't know if this was a neat quote
Speaker 2: or if this was a real quote, but it sounded
Speaker 2: it sounded pretty good Ifstein reportedly said that he wasn't
Speaker 2: especially intelligent, but he had an unending curiosity, which I thought,
Speaker 2: is even if it's made up, is a It's a
Speaker 2: great way to look at life, be a little humble
Speaker 2: if Albert Einstein can say something like that. He said,
Speaker 2: and I think curiosity is the uh is Now again
Speaker 2: I'm little biased to because I happen to consider me
Speaker 2: I'm really curious. That is a sign of intelligence, not
Speaker 2: necessarily a high IQ per se. But I think people
Speaker 2: who are intellectually curious are more interesting, uh and they
Speaker 2: have a wider breath of knowledge. I mean, when you
Speaker 2: sit on an airplane, Richard, and I sit next to you,
Speaker 2: do you, like just put your headphones on or do
Speaker 2: you start a conversation? Because I'm the conversation guy, I'm
Speaker 2: going to say, hey, what's going on?
Speaker 4: Honestly depends if I'm to be honest, Like sometimes I
Speaker 4: just need my own alone time. But yeah, Like, I mean,
Speaker 4: that's the beauty of such a dast world as ours,
Speaker 4: with so many different people with different experiences, right, Like
Speaker 4: everyone can teach you something and you never know what
Speaker 4: might change your life just from a random conversation with
Speaker 4: your you know, neighbor.
Speaker 2: Because I believe this. You know, everybody talks about what
Speaker 2: what's your IQ and what's the IQ you're intelligent, emotion
Speaker 2: and all that. I think we have like twenty different
Speaker 2: areas of intelligence artistic, mechanical, you know, agility, intellectual, all
Speaker 2: of that. I just think that this whole thing about
Speaker 2: measuring someone's IQ and saying, okay, you're one oh five
Speaker 2: or your T one twenty five. You see this with presidents,
Speaker 2: who was the smartest president and all of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just think that's.
Speaker 2: A huge waste of time because I have no mechanical ability.
Speaker 2: I have no musical ability, I have no artistic ability.
Speaker 2: I know my limitations. Okay, I got a couple of
Speaker 2: areas where I'm pretty good, but that's it. That's it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, But don't don't overlimit yourself either, Like you're also
Speaker 4: a capacity. You have capacity to learn and tick up
Speaker 4: new things. And even if you don't become the best
Speaker 4: at you know, being a woodworker or an artist, you
Speaker 4: can still gain something from the active trying it out,
Speaker 4: like enjoying the process.
Speaker 6: And you know, learning.
Speaker 4: So don't get yourself out either.
Speaker 6: I would say I.
Speaker 2: Also think I get what you're saying, yeah, but I
Speaker 2: also think that a lot of us who are overly
Speaker 2: formally educated. I'm a lawyer as well as a practicing
Speaker 2: journalist for many years, and a lot of my colleagues
Speaker 2: I sense that they look down at the blue collar person.
Speaker 2: I'm somebody who really believes in vocational schools. Not everybody
Speaker 2: is wired to do four years as in college. And
Speaker 2: that is also the IQ thing going on there, and again,
Speaker 2: I'd probably love to talk to you about it more
Speaker 2: because I think that we need to value different people
Speaker 2: for different things. I mean, when you need a plumber,
Speaker 2: you need a plumber. Don't tell me you don't need
Speaker 2: an archaeology major. You need a plumber.
Speaker 4: And I think that's that's the strength of the society
Speaker 4: will live in right that we have, you know, such
Speaker 4: diversity of talents, but also ways of hopefully training them
Speaker 4: to get the best that we can, so we could
Speaker 4: rely on each other to cover stuff that I don't
Speaker 4: know how to do or I don't know anything about, right,
Speaker 4: And that's you know, something that we need to keep
Speaker 4: in mind, I think, and being intellectually humble makes it
Speaker 4: more easy.
Speaker 5: To accept that.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I don't know how to you know, like
Speaker 4: stop my toilet from overflowing. I need someone else who
Speaker 4: can do this faster, keeper and all that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you might have two or three degrees the other thing.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to be real quick with you that
Speaker 2: I'm a big believer in and I'm so excited to
Speaker 2: talk to you because this is an area that I've
Speaker 2: never spent a lot of time on my show. I
Speaker 2: do a lot of politics and current events, but this
Speaker 2: is stuff that really gets me going. I am a
Speaker 2: firm believer in going back to that airplane ride. I'm
Speaker 2: a firm believer with the six degrees of separation that
Speaker 2: if you and I talk, you know, on an hour flight, somehow,
Speaker 2: some way through six degrees of separation, we'll have some connection.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's there's some interesting research. I think, like when
Speaker 4: people are modeling social networks, basically you know how people
Speaker 4: arennected with each other, and I think one of the
Speaker 4: theories is like this. I think it's called the small
Speaker 4: world hypothesis, where you know, you have a few people
Speaker 4: who just know a lot of people, and then you
Speaker 4: know it's like highways in across the country, you have
Speaker 4: these main highways where you can connect and then you
Speaker 4: find smaller connections, like as you get closer and closer.
Speaker 4: So I'm sure if we talked like we would I
Speaker 4: went to school in Boston. I shouldn't say that because
Speaker 4: I went to Harvard and people would hate me for
Speaker 4: saying near Boston. But like, I'm sure you like really okay,
Speaker 4: so maybe it's it's I know what Harvard is, Richard.
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed this conversation, and I'm sure that i'd
Speaker 2: love to have you back that I'm going to start
Speaker 2: to follow you st.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love this is a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. It was really enjoyable. We'll talk again,
Speaker 2: Richard Seema uh brain matter in the Washington Post. Check
Speaker 2: them out and there was no such thing as Queen
Speaker 2: Shattuck or Murphy's last Ride. Thanks so much, Richard. We
Speaker 2: got to take a break for the news at the
Speaker 2: bottom of the hour. We always do that. You know,
Speaker 2: when I get a great guest like Richard, I go
Speaker 2: a little longer. I apologize. But we're gonna have another
Speaker 2: great guest coming up, Nicol Maley. He's gonna tell us
Speaker 2: about all the varieties of food at the Big E
Speaker 2: got to find out how much weight he gained, and
Speaker 2: we will talk with him right after the break here
Speaker 2: on Nightside and right after.
Speaker 1: The news You're on night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ,
Speaker 1: Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2: This is the time of year, as I think everyone
Speaker 2: knows when they have the Big E, the Big Exhibition,
Speaker 2: I guess is what it stands for out in Springfield.
Speaker 2: I think it might be West Springfield technically, if it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. I think everyone knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: And one of the big attractions of the Big E
Speaker 2: is food, lots of food, different type food. I'm delighted
Speaker 2: to welcome Nick O'Malley, who's with Mass Live. And Nick,
Speaker 2: you apparently ate your way through the Big EE this year.
Speaker 2: How many different foods did you sample?
Speaker 6: Well, on this most recent trip, I tried thirteen different
Speaker 6: food There were a couple of drinks mixed in, so
Speaker 6: you used to say eleven thirteen, but a whole lot.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm just looking at your article here out of
Speaker 2: Mass Live, and is the Biggie? Is it West Springfield
Speaker 2: or Springfield proper?
Speaker 6: It is West Springfield, Okay, it's good.
Speaker 2: It's somebody that was buried in my mind, okay, and
Speaker 2: it's been around for a long time. So you got
Speaker 2: the quad Father burger. Why would you even try to
Speaker 2: eat that? I mean it's four burgers and bacon and
Speaker 2: all sorts of other stuff.
Speaker 6: I mean it's kind of like a mount everest of
Speaker 6: meat and cheese and buns. You gotta conquer it because
Speaker 6: it's there.
Speaker 2: Ye apsolutely you know something that is. That's a clear explanation.
Speaker 2: And I can understand that. Did you get through the
Speaker 2: whole thing?
Speaker 6: Not quite through the whole thing. There was a lot
Speaker 6: of foods in one day and a lot of steps
Speaker 6: to get through, so you got to try and balance
Speaker 6: it so they're not you know, taking me out on
Speaker 6: a forklift when I'm done.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, absolutely. I mean you know, if you're
Speaker 2: if you're a baseball pitcher and you just throw fastballs
Speaker 2: all day, you know by the third or fourth inning,
Speaker 2: they're gonna they're gonna be on you. You got to mix
Speaker 2: it up. So you mixed it up a lot. The
Speaker 2: Freedo pie that's fifteen dollars. I hope you were on
Speaker 2: an expense account here, by the way.
Speaker 6: I hope we all make it work.
Speaker 2: Listen, Yeah, okay, we don't have to know for tax
Speaker 2: purposes the irs might be listening. You know what I'm saying. Listen,
Speaker 2: let me go past that. I would draw that question. Okay,
Speaker 2: there was one here that the stick this was, This
Speaker 2: is one that I would be interested in. A stick
Speaker 2: of s'mores smoked bacon candy. You couldn't put four words
Speaker 2: that would that would make me my mouth water? Well
Speaker 2: for better words than these moores smoked bacon candy. How
Speaker 2: good was that?
Speaker 6: It was really good? Listen, I'm a big fan of bacon.
Speaker 6: I'm a big fan of candying that bacon and adding
Speaker 6: a little extra, with a little extra, the marshmallow, that chocolate,
Speaker 6: the Graham cracker. It's like all smoky and sweet, delicious.
Speaker 2: Heaven, heaven, heaven. Okay, let's look at a couple of
Speaker 2: others here. Mashed potato fries. Why would why would you
Speaker 2: need mashed potato fries? What's regular fries are? Okay? What
Speaker 2: you find what's the advantage of mashing the potato up
Speaker 2: and then making.
Speaker 1: A fry fry? You know?
Speaker 6: Looking around at all these like crazy foods I'm looking
Speaker 6: at like poutine and chili cheese fries and all these
Speaker 6: crazy things, and really it's just a lot of like
Speaker 6: stuff covering up the potato. And that's what that's what
Speaker 6: this does. It takes a crazy topping something that you
Speaker 6: wouldn't think of. It's creative and it's fun, and it
Speaker 6: doubles up and celebrate. It's a potato, really doubles down
Speaker 6: on the flavor.
Speaker 2: I like that one. Here's one that's interesting, The Big Sexy. Now, people,
Speaker 2: the Big Ee is still open for a while. So
Speaker 2: if you're doing nothing this weekend and you want to,
Speaker 2: you know, increase your choleresterol, go to the Bigie and
Speaker 2: try any and all of these foods. The Big Sexy
Speaker 2: from the Broccoli bar behind the Very Want building. You
Speaker 2: give people exact locations, which is don't you just put
Speaker 2: it in your GPS and you're there. It's fifteen dollars
Speaker 2: for small in eighteen for large. Why would you do
Speaker 2: with small when the large is only three dollars more right?
Speaker 6: That was my exact thought. I mean it's called the
Speaker 6: Big Sexy. I'm not going to get the small version
Speaker 6: of it. I mean, there's a very nice man dressed
Speaker 6: up in a broccoli costume making it for me. I
Speaker 6: gotta go all out.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, absolutely, what was the faith. What was
Speaker 2: the best thing that you would recommend here? You got
Speaker 2: some a cup of pretzel beer with a self car
Speaker 2: with a salt caramel rim what what is the top
Speaker 2: thing you would recommend? Would it be the quad Father?
Speaker 6: The quad Father was a fun experience, It wasn't the
Speaker 6: best tasting thing. And I go every year, so there's
Speaker 6: stuff that returns that I think is like gonna be
Speaker 6: a better pick for most folks. Like, one of my
Speaker 6: favorite things to recommend is something called a barbecue Sunday,
Speaker 6: which isn't ice cream. It's all a bunch of like
Speaker 6: barbecue fixings of a corn bread, big beans, coal slaw,
Speaker 6: mashed potatoes, and it's sort of piled up on like
Speaker 6: a parfe and they put a cherry tomato on top
Speaker 6: of the mashed potato whiped cream, so it looks like
Speaker 6: a Sunday. But it's super fun to eat.
Speaker 2: Sure, by the way. It interesting enough. And with some
Speaker 2: of the finest French restaurants in Paris, you there, and
Speaker 2: then there was one that you had here which I
Speaker 2: don't think you liked particularly, was this the the deep
Speaker 2: fried devil Eggs, in which.
Speaker 6: Oh, I'm a big fan of the deep fried devil
Speaker 6: egg you did.
Speaker 2: Okay, then what is the one here says the sensation
Speaker 2: of carrying a bowling ball of burger and eggs in
Speaker 2: your stomach is not a great one.
Speaker 6: I mean, listen, I I fully endorse ordering a nice
Speaker 6: order of deep fried devil eggs. What I don't endorse
Speaker 6: is doing that immediately after eating the quad Father, because
Speaker 6: that's what I did.
Speaker 2: You have to digest something before you can fully enjoy
Speaker 2: the other. I get that. I get that.
Speaker 6: Yes, I was treading the correct path. I just wasn't
Speaker 6: taking the taking my time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, well you were. You were out there on
Speaker 2: a mission to help all of us, which we have
Speaker 2: to respect and frankly acknowledge. And I just want to
Speaker 2: thank you for coming. When you weighed yourself a couple
Speaker 2: of days later, it's just curious were you able to
Speaker 2: you know, did you did you? Did you pick up
Speaker 2: a couple of pounds on the.
Speaker 6: Scale and maybe, But the news about the big ee
Speaker 6: is that everything sort of spread out. I had one
Speaker 6: of the GPS trackers on my phone. I ended up
Speaker 6: walking five miles that day, so you know, offset the
Speaker 6: little bit. Yeah, definitely, eating a lot of spinach the
Speaker 6: next day though.
Speaker 2: This was a lot of fun and you're great sport,
Speaker 2: Nic O'Malley giving us a tour of food tour at
Speaker 2: the Big Easy. And of course you can go read
Speaker 2: the article. It's it's a very well written and fun
Speaker 2: piece and this is one that should be in your your, your, your,
Speaker 2: your scrap book of This is a great piece. It
Speaker 2: really is. So the biggie in mass Life by Nick O'Malley.
Speaker 2: Please check it out, everybody. It's it's fun to talk about,
Speaker 2: but it's even more fun to read. Thanks very much, Nick.
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: All Right, when we get back, we're going to explain
Speaker 2: the big story yesterday, the fed Rake cut. The stock
Speaker 2: market had a very nice day to day. So we're
Speaker 2: going to be talking with Bill Dendy, uh coming back
Speaker 2: on the other side, and you're going to be able
Speaker 2: to go to work tomorrow and explain the implications of
Speaker 2: the big rate the long awaited rate cut with financial
Speaker 2: strategist Bill Dendy from Raymond James coming back.
Speaker 1: On night Side Now back to Dan ray Live from
Speaker 1: the Window World night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: Well, yesterday the Fed cut interest rates by a half
Speaker 2: a percentage point and with us to explain the implications
Speaker 2: of that is Bill Dendy builds a financial strategist with
Speaker 2: Raymond James. It was a long time coming, and I
Speaker 2: know you're teaching a class tonight, so I'm only going
Speaker 2: to keep you about six or seven minutes. Bill Dendy,
Speaker 2: Welcome to Nightside in Boston. How are you hey?
Speaker 5: It's great to be with you. And it was kind
Speaker 5: of like the Fed was teasing us for a long time,
Speaker 5: so they're going to lower those rates and finally did
Speaker 5: they gave us a lot extra bonus.
Speaker 2: Well, the market had a great day to day, I
Speaker 2: mean a big day to day, but yes, the day
Speaker 2: when the rates were lowered, it wasn't a great day
Speaker 2: for the market. Why the delayed reaction today, Let's talk
Speaker 2: about that first real quickly. What was this did Did
Speaker 2: the traders wake up today and say, you know, they
Speaker 2: really did cut the faces points yesterday? Was that what happened?
Speaker 5: There was a lot of doubt when they saw a
Speaker 5: bigger than expected brake cut, saying what does the SPED
Speaker 5: know about the economy that we don't know? And of
Speaker 5: course Jerome came out and said none, this is just
Speaker 5: based upon our data and the things are good in
Speaker 5: the economy, but we've leave inflations under control. And I
Speaker 5: think enough people said, well, don't fight the Fed.
Speaker 6: They don't lie.
Speaker 5: They said they're going to lower rates. They did, and
Speaker 5: rates are expected to continue to be lowered unless inflation
Speaker 5: should rear back up. We would expect the Fed to
Speaker 5: continue to lower rates for the next twelve to twenty
Speaker 5: four months. And that's very positive the market. So we
Speaker 5: got that boost today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it Pow sort of looks like a FED chairman.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think he does instill confidence in people
Speaker 2: no matter what he does. Kind of he's able to
Speaker 2: carry it off. You know, he looks, he looks the part.
Speaker 2: So the impact for the average person with the rate cut,
Speaker 2: what's that going to mean? Obviously hopefully the amount of
Speaker 2: money that you're going to have to spend that a
Speaker 2: mortgage is going to go down. Give us a couple
Speaker 2: of the highlights so people can make it understandable to
Speaker 2: the people who are listening tonight who maybe get lost
Speaker 2: in some of the terminology.
Speaker 5: Well, mortgage rates have already come down about a percent
Speaker 5: and a half from their highs just a few months ago,
Speaker 5: and so that redooced mortgage rate of a percent and
Speaker 5: a half means that if you're buying a four hundred
Speaker 5: thousand dollars home, Okay, that may not be enough home
Speaker 5: for some folks, but at four hundred thousand dollars home,
Speaker 5: you're saving four dollars a month on payments. Well, that's
Speaker 5: phenomenal because for a lot of people there's low interest rates,
Speaker 5: they can get more home for the dollars. They spent
Speaker 5: less money going for the interest, more going for the home.
Speaker 5: And so there were a lot of folks who were
Speaker 5: sidelined as interest rates were so high that are feeling like, well,
Speaker 5: maybe they can now look at getting into the market
Speaker 5: and buying that home. Same thing for new and used
Speaker 5: cars and credit card debt. It might not come down
Speaker 5: real fast. People will probably saved a few dollars a month.
Speaker 5: But again this is a sign of things to come,
Speaker 5: because the federal really has one cut and stops. They're
Speaker 5: going to cut, maybe pauls if inflation comes back, but
Speaker 5: the hope is that they continue to cut and we
Speaker 5: end up by the end of twenty twenty five being
Speaker 5: down about another two percent from where we are today,
Speaker 5: and that can make a significant difference for people across
Speaker 5: the board now.
Speaker 2: As rates come down. Mortgage rates come down, one of
Speaker 2: the things that a lot of people who were holding
Speaker 2: onto their homes, they wanted to put them on the market,
Speaker 2: but they didn't want to trade a really nice mortgage
Speaker 2: rate which they might have had six or seven years
Speaker 2: ago when it was three and a half percent for
Speaker 2: a six and a half percent mortgage. So that means
Speaker 2: more more houses are going to come on the market,
Speaker 2: which you would think greater supply would lower the cost,
Speaker 2: but that's also means more people are going to come
Speaker 2: into the market. So you might save on the mortgage rate,
Speaker 2: but that four hundred thousand dollars house might get more
Speaker 2: expensive in the next month or two as the market
Speaker 2: develops right along.
Speaker 5: That's an interesting point because what we'll probably see now
Speaker 5: persons on their home, they may be buying another home.
Speaker 5: So that's a kind of a wash there as far
Speaker 5: as they sell, So you've got to make inature house
Speaker 5: in the market, but they're buying, so you have another
Speaker 5: demand on the market, so they're kind of offsetting. But
Speaker 5: the interesting thing is for those who've been waiting that
Speaker 5: suddenly start going shopping to buy their new houses. All
Speaker 5: that excitement to go ahead and take advantage of this
Speaker 5: might actually cause the return of the thing that the
Speaker 5: Fed was all about getting rid of. That's inflation, because
Speaker 5: all that extra demand can be inflationary if you had to.
Speaker 2: Everybody tries to point back and say, well, were where
Speaker 2: were we in this the situation we find ourselves in
Speaker 2: with the rates coming down and the housing market probably
Speaker 2: loosening up. When did we last experience this sort of
Speaker 2: trend or this phenomenon. How could we relate to this
Speaker 2: if we were looking to learn from the past.
Speaker 5: Well, it's kind of interesting looking at the last time
Speaker 5: the Fed cut rates was in March or twenty twenty
Speaker 5: during the pandemic, and that was because the whole world
Speaker 5: shut down and they were trying to stimulate the economy.
Speaker 5: The last time they cut rates a whole half a
Speaker 5: percent at one time was two thousand and eight during
Speaker 5: the Great Recession because economy had just about died on
Speaker 5: us and they were trying to stimulate the economy. This time,
Speaker 5: they're cutting a half a percent, not trying to stimulate
Speaker 5: the economy, but trying to take the rates back to
Speaker 5: a more I guess they put it normalized level, so
Speaker 5: they're gonna want to reduce the rates, and they're gonna
Speaker 5: want to make sure they're not doing it too quickly
Speaker 5: and pouring gasoline on the fire that's already burning as
Speaker 5: high as we wanted to burn.
Speaker 2: So we have to come back quite quite a ways
Speaker 2: to find an equivalent combination of factors. Obviously, twenty twenty
Speaker 2: was an anomaly. Two thousand and eight was an anomaly
Speaker 2: bad situations to cut the raids to get the market
Speaker 2: going up, but to kind of slow it down for
Speaker 2: the soft so called soft landing. Maybe we haven't seen
Speaker 2: that in twenty or thirty years. A rate cut to
Speaker 2: effectuate that result exactly.
Speaker 5: That hopes we can nicely do this without too much
Speaker 5: in place in coming back, But you know, it's the
Speaker 5: markets responded pretty quickly. Interest rates fell in anticipation of
Speaker 5: the rate cut, and they fell some more after the
Speaker 5: rate cut. People who have stock market investments and bond
Speaker 5: market investments saw those go up, And you know it,
Speaker 5: what's good for the investors who already have those things
Speaker 5: might not be so good. You know it's cutting rates
Speaker 5: is great if you're a borrower, and it's great if
Speaker 5: you were already in the stock or bond market. But
Speaker 5: it's not so great if you were living on your
Speaker 5: fixed income, if you were getting by on your CD
Speaker 5: and bond income, and you have these things come and do.
Speaker 5: Now you're not getting the same rate we were getting
Speaker 5: last year. And so for all retire are like, gosh,
Speaker 5: this isn't a benefit to us.
Speaker 2: Social Security beneficiaries that have suggested that you're going to
Speaker 2: see a two percent cola next year. There was a
Speaker 2: Cohler a couple of years ago as much as nine percent.
Speaker 2: So you have people on a fixed income not going
Speaker 2: to help them. Bill Denny, you've explained it very well.
Speaker 2: You with Raymond James, financial strategist, big company, and I
Speaker 2: know you're teaching a class tonight and I was, I
Speaker 2: promised to get you out in ten minutes, and I
Speaker 2: think I've met that that that commitment. Thank you so
Speaker 2: much for wonderful You're great lead. You have a pleasure
Speaker 2: if you love to have you back. Thank you very much,
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you very welcome. When we get back,
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about what went on up at
Speaker 2: Susan Baranowski. It was an ugly scene. Correction officers were hurt.
Speaker 2: We will have reaction from Governor Heally and we'll also
Speaker 2: talk with Republican State Senator Durant. Peter Durant, This was
Speaker 2: an ugly scene out there a little over twenty four
Speaker 2: hours ago. Dan Rayo Knightside back after the nine o'clock
Speaker 2: news