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Speaker 1: All right, welcome to another live stream we do. This

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will be technically part two because the previous ones were

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a two parter of part one, so this is part two.

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We'll be talking tonight about paradigms. I don't know how

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far we're going to get into the other ones here,

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but KAYI, can you explain where you intend to go

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tonight to another live stream? We will be Okay, there's

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an echo on your Yes, that.

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Speaker 2: Was me, Sorry, I have the stream open. Yeah, So

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basically part two I envision it's going to be basically

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three series. We're gonna talk look at paradigms. We're going

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to look at comptit, hypostasis, and then essence, energy's distinction.

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So tonight we're just going to focus on paradigms, why

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they're important, how we can use them, and just kind

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of look at Saint Cyril in some of his language

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and try to understand his paradigm. I've been making some

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posts about it, the Oriental crowd and Sam they've been

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criticizing paradigm. They basically don't really understand why we use

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them and how they can be useful. So hopefully this

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is going to clear up a lot of stuff for

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a lot of people tonight, and then that's going to

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lead us into the next stream afterwards, to talk about

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composite peopostasis. This is language that is used by a

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lot of the fathers from even to the twentieth century,

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Like you'll see it being used by Saint Justin Popovich.

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So it's it's quite a common term to be used,

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but a lot of people misunderstand what it means.

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Speaker 1: Very common in sane Maximus. Also, I wanted to ask

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you too, before you go any further, Sure, could you explain? Uh,

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I haven't seen what shamun. And people are saying, like

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what are they misunderstanding and what are they criticizing about paradigms?

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Speaker 2: Right, So they look at paradigms as basically saying that

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this is all kind of philosophical mumbo jumbo, that you're

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just inventing things, and that you can't really get to

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the truth apart from scripture, and that basically your only

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means or your primary source, should be scripture and that's

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where you extract whatever you know theologically has to be

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restricted to scripture. And so then they'll say that you

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can get lost in the philosophical language. The metaphysics and

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you can construct paradigms that can potentially lead you away

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from what scripture says. And so they kind of pooh

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pooh it and just say you don't really need that.

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You just kind of look at how the history unfolds,

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and it's like basically reading history absence of any kind

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of paradigmatic framework, so that just the text on its own,

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the superficial, the surface level text is sufficient enough for

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you to understand what the Fathers are teaching and what

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the Church teaches.

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Speaker 1: Now, do they mean just the Protestant idea of perspecuity

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of scripture or perspecuity of all texts in general? This

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is this is kind of a Protestant assumption maybe something

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that Shamun is carrying over. Y.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's most definitely carrying that over when he's reading

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the Fathers as well. And so it's basically the quote

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mining of the Fathers is kind of injecting into the

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Fathers whatever superficial understanding of particular terminology is being used,

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and just trying to force the text to say that

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rather than looking at what a father says in throughout

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like the entirety of his corpus, how he's constructing a

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paradigm and what the paradigm is that he's functioning under,

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so that you can understand how exactly those terms are

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meant to be understood, because he'll, like a lot of

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the Fathers, they will use the same term to mean

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different things, so they'll use it in different ways. And

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I will demonstrate that tonight with Saint Cyril, for example.

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And if you don't understand the paradigm that Saint Cyril

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and other Fathers are working from, what their general thrust is,

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you are going to commit a lot of word concept

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fallacy and you're just not really going to understand what

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is being taught.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of equivocation, a lot of word concept

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fallacies in this debate, and a lot of debates obviously

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have the same problem. Muslims commit the same error. For example,

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today we were going back and forth with various people

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talking about the way Mormons utilize the term, you know, godhead.

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For example. Mormons will say, oh, I agree with you,

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we both believe in the Godhead, but they mean a

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very different thing by that term. And so likewise, mia Fusius,

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all of these terms have to be situated in some context,

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and then a broader paradigm. So the book, the paragraph

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you're reading has a context within a chapter. The chapter

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has a context within the work, The work has a

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context within wherever that Saint at theologian is writing and

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from what system they're coming through or from. And then,

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I mean, I'm not trying to cut Chai off. I

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just want to make this point because it's a very

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very common mistake. Same Basil said. Most heretics make errors

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in grammar. They can't make basic distinctions between words and reference,

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and distinct distinctions between the reference. So you've all heard

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me critique you know, Roman Catholics when they say Pagan's

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believe in logos. John one is logos. Therefore John one

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and the Pagans were all talking about the same logos.

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It's not necessarily the case. That's why the paradigm will

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determine the meaning and the reference.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Maybe just before we go on, maybe just

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make a known case. Some people are asking where David is.

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David had some last mint of things that he couldn't

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show up, So unfortunately he's going to miss out on

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this stream, but God willing, he will join us for

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the other streams. Yeah, okay, go ahead, Okay, so we'll

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get into paradigms. So basically, let me just click on that.

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So this was a first slide from the very very

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first presentation, just kind of the preamble of breaking down

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how I envision the various parts in this series to unfold.

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So the part one, which was the two streams that

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we've done already, was kind of setting the stage as

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to what the Orthodox metaphysics kind of looks like. Where

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we're going with things in this Part two is going

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to be obviously the paradigm's compet and essence energies distinction. Now,

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the essence energy is distinction. It is very relevant to Christology.

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A lot of the times Jay will talk about it

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in a triadological context, but it is very relevant to Christology,

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not saying that you haven't talked about it in a

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crystological context. But we're going to hyper focus on that

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here and just demonstrate why it's important to have essence

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energy distriction when we're talking about Christ and the two natures.

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And then Part three Church of the East and Islamic metaphysics,

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Aristotelian metaphysics in part four, Oriental metaphysics in part five.

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Now this is really important because a lot of people

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are kind of saying, is, well, how are you refuting

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the Orientals when you keep talking about the Nestorians all

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the time in the Church of the East all the time,

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where's the reputation of the Orientals. So the reason why

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I'm spending a lot of time talking about the Nestorian

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position in the Church of the East position is because,

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first of all, we both fall under the umbrella term

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of like Diophysites. But whereas we're using that same term,

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we are not subscribing to the same paradigms, the same metaphysics.

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We are very very different in terms of our theology,

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and so we really need to separate the Nestorians proper

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as represented by the Church of the East from the

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Orthodox position so that you get a clear understanding of

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how we are not Nestorians, how Nestorian dual subject christology

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is very different from what we teach. So that's the

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one thing. But then the other thing is is to

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understand how the Orientals are actually making a similar metaphysical

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claim as the Nestorians.

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Speaker 1: You really can't understand these two without both the right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly exactly. So that's exactly what's happening. Is the

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Orientals and the Nestorians, they make a metaphysical move that

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is in common that they share with each other that

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Orthodoxy completely rejects. And then once they both make that

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same metaphysical move, the Nestorians carry it in one direction,

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the Orientals carry it in the other direction. And so

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you're just basically seeing the two extremes of how that

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metaphysical principle plays out and how then you really do

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get in the Nestorian side, the two subject Christology, but

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from a two subject Cristology. In the Orientals you kind

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of reduce it to a monophysite the form of monophysitism.

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So it's kind of ironic that the Oriental position can

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both be monophysite and Nestorian at the same time, but metaphysically,

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that's exactly what's happening. And so we're going to lead

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up to talking about Oriental metaphysics more proper, like the

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exact theology that we see severus of antioch writing and

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advocating for, and that's going to come later on in

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part five, and so then you're going to really appreciate

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and see how a lot of this stuff unfolds and

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the implications of that Nestorian metaphysical move that the Orientals

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are making. And then we're going to go into the

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ecumenical councils and that's where we'll properly look at what's

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being taught at the Ecumenical councils, how they are intertwined,

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and address a lot of the critic that the Orientals

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have towards us with regards to Chalcedon the Fifth Council,

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our reading of the Third Council, this supposed like neo Chalcedonianism,

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where apparently it's like we're reading back like later theological developments,

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we're reading that back into the Third Ecumenical Council and

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making the Third Ecumenical Council say what it's not saying.

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So we're going to address all of that. That's not

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going to be an issue for us to address. I'm

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going to look at the Church of the East synods,

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and this is going to be very important because within

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the Church of the East it was not always hardcore

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like Theodorian or Nestorian. There was a more orthodox friendly

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strand within the Church of the East that after Baby

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kind of had his way with his synods that he

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nestorianized the church and basically persecuted that more kind of

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orthodox strand within the Church of the East. So that's

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going to be very good example to just show historically

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that the Church of the East claims to say that

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it's always been monolithic from Apostolic times, that that's just

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a bunch of nonsense, that is not the case. The

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Church of the East did have a thorough and nestorianization

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later on down the road, and that it's that they

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did have a branch that was a lot more in

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line with orthodoxy. Part eight we'll go into some ecclesial history.

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More to be said on that, and then Part nine

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oriental quote mining. That's kind of where we'll look at

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a lot of the arguments that the Orientals are making

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and how they're using quotes, and a lot of times

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even using the same quotes that we're using. But basically

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at this point we're going to have the paradigms completely

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fleshed out, will have the Orthodox paradigm fleshed out, will

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have Severus's paradigm fleshed out, and so now you'll see

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how we're both reading the same text by saying Cyril,

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but how it's being distilled in the respective paradigms. And

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then once you see that, we'll see what are the

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logical entailments and conclusions that you can draw from these paradigms,

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and how the Orientals will lead into a lot of

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nonsensical positions, whether it leads into tritheism, whether it makes

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the incarnation trivial. We'll look at like the harrowing of Hades,

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how that completely breaks down in both the Historian and

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the Oriental positions, and how only Orthodoxy makes sense of

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the harrowing of Hades. So these are all things that

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like Scripture talks about that we're all aware of, that

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we believe in. But when you don't have the right paradigm,

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you'll see the implications of these metaphysical principles that the

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Orientals and historians are making, and how it cannot actually

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make sense of what Saint Cyril is saying, and what

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the other Fathers are are saying, what the ecumenical councils

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are teaching, so moving on. So this saddens me being

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from the Serbian Orthodox Church myself, this really saddened me

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when former Patriarch Irenae of the Serbian Orthodox Church he

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met with the so called patriarch moder Ignostius after him

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the second of the Syriac Oriental Church or so called Church,

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and the tone of that meeting suggests that reunion between

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the Orthodox and the Orientals is inevitable. And so basically

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from the Syriac Patriarch's website, his Holiness referring to Patriarch

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modic not just from the second, we called the visit

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of the Serbian Patriarch to our church in Sweden, where

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he had the chance to meet with the faithful there,

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his Holiness added those faithful long for the day on

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which we partake of the same one eucharistic chalice, after

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the theologians of both churches agreed that we confess the

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same belief in our Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate word.

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So that is a bunch of nonsense. We do not

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believe that we confess the same belief we hold to

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different christologies. And so whether or not this is an

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ecumenist effort or this is just wilful ignorance, I don't

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want to speculate, But nevertheless, this is just it's very sad,

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and it flies in the face of what has historically

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been the position of the Orthodox Church. And it's basically

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saying that the Ecumenical Councils got it wrong. Okay, that

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the Ecumenical Councils were not led by the Holy Spirit,

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and so that is something that really does need to

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be addressed. And so even though you do have elements

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within Orthodox and the Oriental spheres that we that say

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that we allegedly believe or share the same Christology, the

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fact is we do not. And so we need to

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follow the examples of the Ecumenical Councils and basically demonstrate

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that the desire to see Christian unity must be grounded

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in establishing correct Christology and to promote Christology that is

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contrary to what has been promulgated by the Ecumenical Councils

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and subsequently exposited by church fathers like Saint Cyril of Alexandria,

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Saint Maximus, the Confessors in John of Damascus and saying

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g Agri Palamas, who taught in accordance with the edicts

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of these ecumenical councils, is to deny the desire to

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truly seek Christian unity. So, if we believe that the

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Orthodox Church is the true Church and that the Ecumenical

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Councils got it right, then we need to insist that

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people who say that they profess the same beliefs with

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us come into communion with us, and that means to

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accept all of the ecumenical councils, accept all of our saints,

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because we cannot be in communion. If you reject our saints,

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we cannot be in communion if you reject our ecumenical

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councils that we say are guided by the Holy Spirit.

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It's as simple as that. And if they're saying that

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we truly do profess the same belief then the Syriacs

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or whoever is part of the Oriental Churches should not

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have a problem to simply accept all the councils. Now,

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obviously they won't, and it's proof that we don't actually

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believe the same thing. And so this series that we're

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doing here is meant to demonstrate to people not to

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fall for this kind of a lie being perpetrated. We

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don't believe the same thing, and we cannot compromise the faith.

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Before we get into the paradigms and talking about building

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up our paradigms, I was going to look at just

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putting together some working definitions of some key terms. Now,

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these terms they have had various usages throughout the history

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of the Church, and by certain fathers, they never always

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had exactly the same usage. But for our intents and purposes,

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unless we use it in a different sense, this is

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more or less the sense that we are going to

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be using it. Whenever we say these particular terms so hypostasies,

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it denotes a real ontological concretization of an essence. And

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so one hypostasis is distinguished from another hypostasis because it

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has distinguishing properties. For example, the father and son are

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distinguished because the father is unbegotten while the son is begotten. However,

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a hypostasis is not the properties themselves, so the father

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is not unbegottenness and the son is not begottenness, but

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rather is an ontology in which those properties subsist and

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or are realized. A hypostasis can and hypostatize a plurality

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of essences yet maintain its singular ontology. Each of these

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essences will have for its subject the same hypostasis, but

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we're in the hypostasis may be in a different mode

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of existence. And that's what we're getting at when we

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say an hyposthetize is to have a particular mode of existence,

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and so Christ is a single hypostasis that exists as

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divine and human.

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Speaker 1: Can I need to interject here because I know you

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haven't gotten to pros upon yet. But at the time

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of Nicea this confused a lot of people because at

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Nicea it spoke of one hypostasis in God. But that's

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because the early definition was the broad sense that John

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Damascus lists as one of the senses in Fount of Knowledge,

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and that is that it's just the concretization of an essence.

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But as you get into the post Nicene era, particularly

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after the Cappadocians, and more specifically in John Damascus, it

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becomes a and I would argue in Cyril two, mcguckan

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makes this point, hypostasis becomes more specifically the subject or

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the agent that has the nature and that specifically is

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pros upon. In fact, in Fount of Knowledge and on

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the Orthodox Faith, he identifies hypistosis as person. When John

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Damascus defines it, he says, it's the same sense as

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Peter or Paul, who are persons who have a human essence.

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So we have to distinguish essence and hopistosis over time,

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and maybe you're going in that direction, but it's very

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important because if we don't do this, if we keep

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the old Nicene definition, it will get confusing because for example,

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there would be three essences in the Godhead, which is tritheism.

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So we don't want to concrete tize in the Trinity

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three essences. But it is important to note that the

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early usage of hoopistosis is the instantiation of an essence,

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but eventually by the Fifth Council explicitly which which says

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that the only hypostasis or person in Christ is the

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second person of the Trinity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're spot on, Jay. The reason why I'm kind

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of going in this with the way I phrased it

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is because this older usage is very much what.

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Speaker 1: The exactly this is, though the Orientals will keep that

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I think.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly okay, exactly now in terms of person or prosopon,

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so it denotes the form, manner, or properties in which

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a hypostasis is manifest and in its plain meaning, the

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Greek term prospone just means a face or a mask,

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as was used in Greek theater, and so then that

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mask would identify the character being portrayed. That is relevant

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for Nestorianism, and when we looked in the first two

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parts of the series, how we looked at the threefold

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ontology that the Church of the East promotes, where they

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had like the kana, Kunuma and Parsupa. So they they

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give an ontological distinction between prosopone and hypostasis or Parsupa

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and kuma. So it's kind of important that they still

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keep that kind of in an understanding of person. But

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for Orthodoxy we have person being synonymous with hypostass and

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you will see Saint Cyril actually uses the term interchangeably

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as synonymous with each other. And it speaks to this,

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this what you spoke about a moment ago, how it's

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picking out like the individual the subject.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yep.

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Speaker 2: Now there's a term the hypostatic union, and this is

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really important. And both us as Orthodox and the Orientals

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will profess belief in the hypostatic union. Now the Nestorians

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they reject the hypostatic union. They go for what's called

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the prosopic union because they distinguish between hypostasis in person,

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and so the Nestorian union is basically a union of idioms,

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it's not a union in the subject. But for us,

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I think one of the clearest statements of how to

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understand the hypostatic union comes from the Fifth Ecumenical Council,

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specifically Canon five. And I read it in the last stream,

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but the word last presentation of streams, and I'll just

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read it again because it is really fundamental. So it says,

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if anyone so understands the one hypostasis of our Lord

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Jesus Christ as allowing the meaning of many hypostases, and

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tries thereby to introduce into the mystery of Christ two

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hypostasies or two persons, and in relation to the two

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persons that he is introducing, speaks of one person according

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to merit and honor and worship, as the insane theodorta.

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And the story is wrote and misrepresents the Holy Council

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at Chalcedon as using the term one hypostasis according to

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this impious conception, but does not profess that the Word

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of God was united to flesh hypostatically, and that therefore

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he has one hypostasis or one person, and that the

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Holy Council of Childstourne professed one hypothesis of our Lord

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Jesus Christ. In this way, let him be anathema, for

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the Holy Trinity has received no addition of person or

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hypostasis even after the incarnation of God, the word one

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of the Holy Trinity, So that's really important. And this

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thing about the united to flesh hypostatically, this is basically

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meaning that the one hypostasis of Christ that is divine

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becomes in fleshed. It's not that you have now a

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human hypostasis that conjoins or mixes with a divine hypostasis,

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but it's that the divine hypothesis becomes in fleshed without

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necessitating the introduction of an additional hypostasis. So Christ is

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not composed of many hypostases, Okay, and that's how we

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understand the hypostatic union. There's another longer explanation that of

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the hypostatic union that is found in the person of Christ. Basically,

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it's Emperor Saint Justinian's writing. And I'm not going to

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read the entire text. You guys can go through and

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find it in the book. You've got the references there,

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or you can view it from the slide here that

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you see on screen. But basically the underlined portions, I'm

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just going to read that. So it's the divine logos

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made for himself in his own hypostasis. Flesh that was

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taken from her, meaning the blessed Tokus, and that was

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endowed with a reasonable and intellectual soul i e. Human nature. Okay,

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So the hypostasis, the flesh is in sort, the hypostasis

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is being in fleshed. Okay. So the logos made for

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himself in his own hypostasis.

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Speaker 1: And then and here, by the way, for us, this

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is referring to the subject or the agent that instantiates

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the nature, not just merely a nature instantiated, but the

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subject or the agent that has the nature correct.

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Speaker 2: And so again he's clear one hypostasis or prosopone of

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God the Word, even with the flesh. Yes, So here

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you have the identification of the prosopone, the person with

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the hypostasis, And he's saying that you still have only

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the one hypostasis of God the Word, even with the flesh.

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So it's saying that even with the flesh, you still

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have the one hypostasis that is God the Word. And

400
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then later on it says he used the term nature

401
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and he's referring here to Saint Cyril, because you have

402
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that phrase one nature of God the Word incarnate. So

403
00:26:54,839 --> 00:26:57,480
he's saying here he used the term nature in this

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formula for hypostasis, and in the writings in which he

405
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,880
makes use of this formula, and here is the critical part,

406
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he frequently follows it by adding either the terms sun

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or logos or only begotten, which are not names that

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indicate nature, but the hypostasis or prosopon. So what Christ is.

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So what Saint Cyril is talking about is when Saint

410
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,640
Cyril is using that formula, he's referring to the subject.

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Who is the subject. It is not just simply the nature.

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It is the person that is the that is Christ,

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that is the hypostasis, that is Christ. And so that

414
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is the way we are understanding this terminology to be

415
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,559
relevant to understanding the hippostotic union. And that's coming straight

416
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from Saint Cyril. So we're not simply reading nature or

417
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hypostasis and just putting any kind of definition we want

418
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to it. We're looking at the context, who is being referenced,

419
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,160
what exactly is being referenced, And so Saint Cyril himself

420
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is making it clear one nature of God. The word

421
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,640
incarnate is referring to the Sun. It's not referring to

422
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just simply like a collection of idioms. Then there's a

423
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footnote added by Russia, and he's basically saying the hypostasis

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of Christ is the divine logos, who is himself Jesus.

425
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Note above, how Justinian refers to the Lord Jesus as

426
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the one who possesses in himself divine in human natures.

427
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The hypostasis that is produced then, quote unquote produced is

428
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,720
the one we see in our minds when we contemplate

429
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,920
the union. It is not the actual hypostasis of Christ himself,

430
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,359
for that hypostasis is the eternally existing divine logos. The

431
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,599
term quote unquote composite Christ, and we're going to come

432
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back that in part two or the stream two moreover,

433
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,160
refers to the divine logos, not to the divine nature,

434
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,720
and is simply a way of saying that the divine

435
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,400
Logos becomes incarnate by adding to his previously divine quote

436
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,440
unquote mode of existence, or what we'll use as the

437
00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:22,759
term an hypositization, a human mode of existence, taking on

438
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,759
himself on his hypostasis all the attributes and properties of

439
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:33,279
human nature without becoming a human hypostasis. He thereby becomes

440
00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:37,880
fully human, but he remains fully God. Both in nature

441
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:45,880
and in identity. So basically that who Christ is always

442
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:50,599
remains the divine hypostasis of the second person of the Godhead.

443
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That's what basically is being said here. Then we have

444
00:29:57,839 --> 00:30:02,160
what I'd like to call the hypose tanic union, and

445
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,440
that's just the hippostatic union as understood by the Orientals.

446
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And this is very interesting and it comes from Severus

447
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,559
of Antioch, and this is where he is now going

448
00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:22,480
to admit that the Oriental position believes in multiple hypostasies

449
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comprising Christ. And this is important because a lot of Orientals,

450
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,799
who are very ignorant of their own tradition, of their

451
00:30:31,839 --> 00:30:36,440
own theology, don't actually understand that they subscribe to multiple

452
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:42,160
hypostasies in Christ, and they think that's just a historian move,

453
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,119
but fail to understand that, No, the Oriental position very

454
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:53,599
much subscribes to having multiple hypostasies in Christ. So what

455
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,279
does Severus say, do you call the flesh possessing an

456
00:30:57,279 --> 00:31:00,880
intelligent soul, which God the Word voluntarily united to himself

457
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,759
hypostatically without any change, a specimen or a generality, that is,

458
00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:11,240
one soul possessing hypostasis, or the whole human generality. It

459
00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:15,200
is manifest that if you wish to give a right

460
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:21,039
minded answer, you will say one soul possessing body. Accordingly,

461
00:31:21,319 --> 00:31:24,759
we say that from it and the hypostasis of God,

462
00:31:24,839 --> 00:31:30,000
the word the ineffable union was made for the whole

463
00:31:30,079 --> 00:31:33,519
of the Godhead and the whole of humanity in general,

464
00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:38,839
were not joined in a natural union, but special hypostasis

465
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,119
in the plural and the holy. And why Cyril plainly

466
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,039
witnesses to us in that in the third chapter or anathema,

467
00:31:47,119 --> 00:31:51,119
he spoke, thus, whoever divides the one Christ into hypostasis

468
00:31:51,319 --> 00:31:55,200
after the union, associating them in association of honor or

469
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,720
of authority only, and not rather injunction of natural union,

470
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,799
let him be anathema. So I will get to exactly

471
00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:09,720
this citation that Severus brings up from Saint Cyril's third

472
00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:14,000
letter to Nestorius, and basically that particular anathema. We'll get

473
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,160
to that. We will talk about that in this presentation,

474
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,319
but then we'll look at it in greater detail when

475
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:23,720
we get to the ecumenical councils proper. But basically, you

476
00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:28,759
see the argument here that Severus is making. He's basically

477
00:32:28,839 --> 00:32:34,079
saying that you have to have hypostasis for the divinity

478
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:40,079
and for the humanity, because otherwise, in Christ, if you

479
00:32:40,119 --> 00:32:43,599
don't have a specific keypostasis for as humanity, it's as

480
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,880
if he is taking on the entirety of humanity in

481
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:54,319
his incarnation. So for Severus, he's making the same metaphysical

482
00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:59,799
move as the Nestorians, requiring first a specific concretization that

483
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:05,079
is to that particular subject or connected to that subject

484
00:33:05,119 --> 00:33:08,759
in this case Christ, and so it has to necessitate

485
00:33:09,119 --> 00:33:14,359
a complete subject that is now created. Now the Orientals

486
00:33:14,359 --> 00:33:18,920
will say that that subject it never is separable from

487
00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:22,480
the logos, and so you're looking at the same identity.

488
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,079
But that is not the case. It is required to

489
00:33:26,319 --> 00:33:30,920
have a complete concretization in the hypostasis, which means that

490
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,480
you have to have the individual in his entirety in

491
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:41,880
order to constitute human nature or humanity to unite. Because

492
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,759
if you don't have the entirety of the hypostasis as

493
00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:50,799
a separable individual or even in your mind separable, then

494
00:33:50,839 --> 00:33:54,119
you don't really have a true union. And that's going

495
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,039
to be a metaphysical problem for the Orientals to address.

496
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,079
I don't know if you want to chime in on that, Jay,

497
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:02,160
or I can move.

498
00:34:02,039 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: On no, I mean this is good. I think that

499
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,920
it's important to note too that the Orthodox physician, as

500
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:14,519
I understand, also disagrees because we think that Christ is

501
00:34:14,559 --> 00:34:18,119
a singular subject and he possessed a single human body.

502
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,960
But he also was able, as the Seventh Ectu Medical

503
00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:26,199
Council and even Cyril and many other church fathers say

504
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,199
he was able to unite himself to universal human nature

505
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,400
to raise it by virtue of being a divine person.

506
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:38,119
So because he's a divine person, even though his body

507
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,000
is singular that he assumed, he's also able to recapitulate

508
00:34:44,519 --> 00:34:48,599
all that Adam lost in terms of Adam's nature by

509
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,840
the Son of God, assuming the totality of human nature.

510
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,280
That's why all men are resurrected, even if they're outside

511
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:01,360
of Christ. That cosmic scope that Saint Maximus stress reaches

512
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,559
to all individuals. But that doesn't mean everybody's saved. I'm

513
00:35:04,599 --> 00:35:08,039
just pointing out that Christ is a singular divine subject,

514
00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:14,840
but also, as Professor Manzariitis notes, he is the universal person. Yeah.

515
00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:21,159
Speaker 2: People who are a little bit familiar with philosophy, they

516
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,920
might actually be picking out here that the oriental position

517
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,440
is basically like a form of nominalism. Yes, and yeah,

518
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,360
you will see normalism develop later on in medieval times properly,

519
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,960
that kind of in the Western sphere. But really you

520
00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:45,079
do see the kernel of nominalism in the Oriental position,

521
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,360
and that's going to become very apparent when you start

522
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:55,440
getting into particular natures of each person.

523
00:35:55,519 --> 00:35:58,079
Speaker 1: Could I add to that, there's an interesting dialectic here

524
00:35:58,119 --> 00:36:01,440
because in some of the Orientals there's a tendency towards

525
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:10,519
Aristotelian nominalism, with John Philipponis, who reduces hypostasis to particular

526
00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:14,079
natures and that leads him to the tritheism position. But

527
00:36:14,199 --> 00:36:17,159
also in Severus, some people have shown and argued that

528
00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:22,119
Severus has a neoplatonic dialectical definition of human will and energy,

529
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,159
and so he thinks that the human will and energy

530
00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:28,039
has to be overcome, hence monothelitism on energism and the

531
00:36:28,119 --> 00:36:31,880
tendency in that direction because of the natural tension between

532
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,239
the creator and the uncreated.

533
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: Yep, we'll get into that in part five when we look.

534
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I figured we what I just want to mention

535
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:40,440
that as that came to mind.

536
00:36:41,039 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely, that all the oriental metaphysics that

537
00:36:44,519 --> 00:36:46,880
whole thing that we're going to blow that wide open

538
00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:51,360
in part five here just setting the stage. So now

539
00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:56,960
examples of why paradigms are necessary, and so now these

540
00:36:57,039 --> 00:37:00,000
next sets of slides is basically meant to kind of

541
00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:04,960
addressed this criticism by the low IQ crowd, which includes

542
00:37:05,039 --> 00:37:10,880
Sam Shamoun, of why they don't understand the necessity of paradigms.

543
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:18,159
So Saint Cyril in his letter, his third letter to Nestorius,

544
00:37:18,599 --> 00:37:23,679
he makes it quite clear and he tells Nestorius basically

545
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,800
that reciting the same words, specifically of the Nicene creed,

546
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:35,639
that's not enough. You need to understand what exactly is

547
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,280
being recited. And how do you understand what's being recited, Well,

548
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,639
you have to have the correct paradigm, because if you

549
00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:46,119
don't have the correct paradigm, you set up a competing paradigm.

550
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:50,000
You're going to understand it in a different way. I'm

551
00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:51,960
not going to read the whole quote there, but it's

552
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,280
basically that's what he's saying. He says basically that you, Nestorius,

553
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,840
you can't just say the words. You need to actually

554
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:07,079
demonstrate that you understand the theology behind those words, and

555
00:38:07,119 --> 00:38:11,880
that theology is based on our paradigm, the Orthodox paradigm.

556
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:21,280
And what's really interesting here is Saint Cyril says that

557
00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:26,920
basically unless he anathematizes, unless the story is anathematizes his

558
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,599
own position, your own founld and profane doctrines, and that

559
00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:32,760
in future you will hold and teach us all of

560
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,639
us do bishops and teachers and leaders of congregations in

561
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,880
both East and West. So not only is Saint Cyril

562
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,880
telling the stories that his metaphysical paradigm is incorrect, but

563
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:51,159
he's also talking about how Apostolic Christianity is when everyone

564
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:57,840
teaches the same doctrine, has the same paradigm. Okay, there's

565
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,920
no such thing as quote unquote app Aostolic Christianity, like

566
00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:05,880
Sam Schmoun wants to portray, where everyone, even if they

567
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,719
have material succession from the Apostles, can believe whatever they want.

568
00:39:11,079 --> 00:39:16,239
Contrary to Orthodoxy, there's only one faith. Saint Cyril is

569
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:21,360
making that very clear. There's only one faith that must

570
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:27,239
be professed, and that's Orthodoxy. Okay, So this whole Apostolic Christianity,

571
00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:32,039
that's a bunch of garbage. Okay, it doesn't exist. If

572
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,360
you want to just basically take all these different competing

573
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,159
theologies and just say we're all apostolic. No, Saint Cyril

574
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,880
is telling you either you teach what we're teaching or

575
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:45,800
you're not apostolic.

576
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: It also shows the fraudulent nature of Jimmy Aiken and

577
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,039
Voice of Reasons nonsense that the Council of Ephicis got

578
00:39:55,079 --> 00:40:00,000
it wrong about Astorias. They don't understand that. You can't say,

579
00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:05,719
oparate the Karellian theology and the condemnations and the anathemas

580
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,280
from the totality picture here. So to say that Ephesis

581
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,480
got it wrong on the Storis's theology would actually undermine

582
00:40:12,519 --> 00:40:16,039
the very things that Kay's quoting, and it would undermine

583
00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:20,679
the anathemas, which are necessary elements of Ephesus. So you

584
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,320
can't hold to Ephesus and say that they got it

585
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,079
wrong on the Storias. That's so absurd, it is yeap.

586
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: So let's take a look at another example here, one

587
00:40:33,039 --> 00:40:36,679
from scripture. So you have two Peter one four by

588
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,800
which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious

589
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,800
promises that through these you may be partakers of the

590
00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:49,880
divine nature your feces. So how do we understand this?

591
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:56,000
How do you partake of the divine nature. Well, if

592
00:40:56,039 --> 00:41:00,199
you subscribe to the Orthodox paradigm, we partake of the

593
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:05,719
divine energies and not the divine essence. But if you

594
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,719
subscribe to the Roman Catholic paradigm, then we partake of

595
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,400
the divine essence, because there is no essence, energies distinction.

596
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: Well, to be clear, that is where it should lead.

597
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,639
But they have dogmatized the position of partaking of a

598
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,360
created accident. So their view is that the grace that

599
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,639
you actually partake of can't be the divine essence. They

600
00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:34,639
agree with us, there there is no energies to partake of,

601
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,519
so it's got to be some supernatural creation. And that's

602
00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:40,840
Council of Trent. That's lud we got.

603
00:41:41,519 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean they can refine that down the road.

604
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,480
But just from a simple perspective of Orthodoxy, well, we

605
00:41:48,559 --> 00:41:52,159
have the energy's doctrine. If you're not partaking of the energies,

606
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,960
then I mean either the essence or some some created effect.

607
00:41:59,199 --> 00:42:03,039
Now let's look at scripture. We've got other examples. So

608
00:42:03,079 --> 00:42:06,559
in John one eighteen where no one has seen God

609
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:11,000
at any time, and then you have an exodus. So

610
00:42:11,079 --> 00:42:13,960
the Lord spoke to Moses face to face. Okay, but

611
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,920
wait a minute, how can the Lord speak to Moses

612
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,039
face to face? But yet no one has seen God

613
00:42:20,119 --> 00:42:24,559
at any time. So here's a reference to, in one instance,

614
00:42:24,599 --> 00:42:29,000
the essence, because we cannot see the essence of God directly,

615
00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:34,360
but God interacts with us through the energies, and so

616
00:42:34,559 --> 00:42:40,400
Moses would interact with Christ on Mount Sinai through the energies,

617
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,079
through God's energies.

618
00:42:42,199 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 1: In the text in Exodus, when God hides Moses in

619
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,880
the cleft and passes by, God says, I will show you.

620
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:55,639
My goodness is plural, meaning many energies, not just one energy,

621
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,400
but goodness says yeah.

622
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 2: So this is also a demonstration to people like sam

623
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,679
who has criticized the energy's doctrine. So this is scriptural.

624
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,639
So though we may unfold the metaphysics in a little

625
00:43:11,679 --> 00:43:16,280
bit more developed form to basically show how the energy's

626
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:22,039
doctrine unfolds in a paradigmatic sense, it is still fundamentally

627
00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:25,000
part of scripture. And this is where we're ultimately getting out.

628
00:43:25,199 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, as I pointed out to Shamoun when

629
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,480
he made the stupid, mocking statements of the divine energies,

630
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,320
every Protestant knows about strong concordance, and if you look

631
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,159
up one seven, five three, it's literally all the uses

632
00:43:40,199 --> 00:43:41,960
of the New Testament term innergaia.

633
00:43:42,639 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 2: Yep, yep. Now I'm going to switch gears a little

634
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,079
bit and I'm going to talk about Islam, and this

635
00:43:51,199 --> 00:43:58,440
is where the idea of paradigms becomes very relevant. And

636
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,000
it's in just that I've yet to see I mean,

637
00:44:03,079 --> 00:44:07,800
I do these kind of argumentations, paradigm level arguments against Muslims,

638
00:44:08,119 --> 00:44:12,280
but I've yet to see anybody else do this. So

639
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:17,559
it just goes to show how poorly the wider quote

640
00:44:17,599 --> 00:44:21,719
unquote Christian community is unaware of paradigms, and they don't

641
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:27,800
really get the understanding of how to use paradigms in

642
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:35,440
interacting with other faiths. So in Islam, the concept of

643
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:41,840
divine quote unquote love means obedience to a law that

644
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:48,599
results in rewards, and disobedience leads to punishments, and a

645
00:44:48,639 --> 00:44:51,880
person cannot come close or near to a law through

646
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,519
divine love that resembles the kind of love that let's say,

647
00:44:55,519 --> 00:45:01,840
biological fathers and sons have for each other. Contrary to Christianity,

648
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,480
a law loving someone can never be understood as a

649
00:45:06,599 --> 00:45:11,840
law uniting creation unto himself, or caring about creation as

650
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,719
a father would care for his son. So now imagine

651
00:45:16,199 --> 00:45:21,239
that the only kind of love that is exchanged between

652
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:26,360
like a biological father and son, is where the father

653
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:31,960
will reward the son for obedience and the son desires

654
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:36,079
to be obedient. Okay. And that's the only way that

655
00:45:36,159 --> 00:45:39,639
the father and son can interact to show love for

656
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,960
each other. And that's the way love is defined. Well,

657
00:45:43,559 --> 00:45:48,199
that is exactly the kind of relationship that the Islamic

658
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:54,239
allaw has to man, and that is the Islamic paradigm.

659
00:45:54,559 --> 00:45:58,519
And it's through that paradigm how we are to understand

660
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:03,840
the Islami notion of quote unquote divine love. And I

661
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,239
gave you the reference here. You can read it. I

662
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,559
mean I can even just read it just to show

663
00:46:08,559 --> 00:46:12,599
you how it's worded. It's just a very short blurb.

664
00:46:13,159 --> 00:46:15,559
The prophet was told about the man who finished his

665
00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:19,400
recitation in prayer by reciting Sir one twelve Purity of Faith.

666
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,639
The man said that it states the attributes of God,

667
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,679
the Lord of Grace, and he loved to recite it

668
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,199
for that reason. The Prophet said, tell him that God

669
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,599
loves him. Imam Almazari said God's love of his servants

670
00:46:32,679 --> 00:46:35,440
is his will to reward them and to bestow find

671
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,840
bounties on them. Others said his love of his servants

672
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,079
is rewarding them and bestowing bounties on them, not the

673
00:46:42,119 --> 00:46:45,599
will to do so. Kadiyad said their love of God

674
00:46:45,679 --> 00:46:49,039
may be their inclination towards him, but He is above

675
00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:52,920
feeling inclined to anyone. It is also said that their

676
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,360
love of God is continuing to obey him. Okay, so

677
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,760
it's very clear that this is how you understand divine love,

678
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,320
how you understand a law and his relationship to creation

679
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:11,119
in the Islamic context. So when a Muslim reads the

680
00:47:11,119 --> 00:47:16,280
Bible and encounters the concept of divine love, does he

681
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,239
understand it according to the Christian paradigm or the Islamic paradigm.

682
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:26,159
And so this is how you unfold the Muslim struggling

683
00:47:26,159 --> 00:47:31,280
to understand Christianity because they filter it through the Islamic

684
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:36,639
paradigm and not just divine love. Basically, everything that they

685
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,880
can see in the Bible, they're going to read it

686
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:45,760
through their Islamic lens. Another popular example is the meaning

687
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:51,440
and purpose of quote unquote Messiah in Islam versus Christianity,

688
00:47:52,079 --> 00:47:57,119
and the answers are comical when you ask Muslims basically,

689
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,960
what does it mean for Jesus to be the misas

690
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:06,119
because Muslims have no idea the Islamic paradigm does not

691
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:13,280
have the capacity to understand the Messiah in the Christian context.

692
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,159
For them, the Messiah is just somebody who wipes like

693
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,760
Jesus would wipe over the face, and he would perform

694
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,880
a miracle by doing so, and that's why he's called

695
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,719
the Messiah. There's no kind of conception of Messiah as

696
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:35,920
the divine Savior. And so when you look at this

697
00:48:36,159 --> 00:48:39,880
stark contrast in the different paradigms and how you can

698
00:48:40,079 --> 00:48:47,519
use the same words to denote completely different ideas because

699
00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:51,559
the paradigms are completely different. So, in a similar way,

700
00:48:51,599 --> 00:48:54,840
the heterodox within the Christian tradition, whether it be the

701
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:59,880
Nestorians or the Orientals, they set up competing paradigms to

702
00:49:00,119 --> 00:49:06,000
that of Orthodoxy. And so this is why paradigm level

703
00:49:06,039 --> 00:49:12,800
analysis is crucial because for example, we and the Orientals

704
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:16,920
will agree that Saint Cyril said such and such. Okay,

705
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,679
but now we need to understand what exactly did he mean? Okay,

706
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,199
And we can't just look at oh, you're going to

707
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,159
give this word this definition, we're going to give that

708
00:49:26,199 --> 00:49:30,199
word this definition. Well, how is it that their respective

709
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,280
sides are coming up with how to understand those particular words,

710
00:49:34,599 --> 00:49:38,039
because we're looking at the paradigm that Saint Cyril is

711
00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:42,800
presenting us, We're looking at the entirety of his writings.

712
00:49:43,039 --> 00:49:47,239
We're looking at what makes sense with what he is saying,

713
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,480
what the councilors are promoting, what the fathers are teaching,

714
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,920
And we're not going to try to shoehorn in these

715
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,079
quote minds to force the text to say something yes,

716
00:49:57,159 --> 00:49:58,000
that doesn't.

717
00:49:58,119 --> 00:50:01,039
Speaker 1: This is a really important point because this is such

718
00:50:01,079 --> 00:50:04,320
a common mistake that's made not just by Orientals or

719
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,960
historians or but it comes up with Islam, it comes

720
00:50:08,039 --> 00:50:12,000
up with Protestants all the time. There is this assumption

721
00:50:12,159 --> 00:50:15,960
that words just have a self evident meaning. Words just

722
00:50:16,039 --> 00:50:19,639
mean when they say, they say what they mean. There's

723
00:50:19,679 --> 00:50:24,000
no word that has a self evident meaning apart from

724
00:50:24,119 --> 00:50:30,719
some context, some lexigraphical setting that gives it that meaning.

725
00:50:31,159 --> 00:50:36,760
Nothing has meaning in a standalone vacuum way, and language

726
00:50:37,119 --> 00:50:39,320
is essentially because language is like one of the most

727
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:45,880
obvious areas where like there's no vacuum you know, meaning here,

728
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,119
like obviously there's a broader context within the totality of

729
00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:53,400
that language or that system or that grammar that gives

730
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,679
it that meaning. And this is why so often on

731
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:00,000
my channel for so many years, not just myself, many others,

732
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,960
I mean, Perry does this too. We always talk about

733
00:51:04,079 --> 00:51:10,599
paradigm level settings because systems in form in a broader

734
00:51:10,639 --> 00:51:13,880
sense the particular pieces within the system. So if you

735
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,840
have a worldview, if you have a theological system, you

736
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,239
have some computer system, it's going to be the same way, right,

737
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,639
files are going to operate within the totality operating system,

738
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:30,000
and so in the same way in theology, everybody has

739
00:51:30,039 --> 00:51:33,320
some systematic theology, even if they don't systematize it or

740
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,079
think that they do. And so it doesn't work to

741
00:51:36,159 --> 00:51:41,000
take the some inflexible usage of a term. Just like

742
00:51:41,079 --> 00:51:48,000
at nicea one homo Usius Hopistas said, nicea one doesn't

743
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,159
have the exact same meaning even in the cave dooceans,

744
00:51:50,199 --> 00:51:54,119
and even later on it has. There's flexibility with words.

745
00:51:54,159 --> 00:51:55,880
And there's a great quote by Saint jerome I forget

746
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:57,599
exactly where it is. I read it many years ago,

747
00:51:57,599 --> 00:52:03,000
But Saint Drum said something like echoing Basil, heretics always

748
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:06,400
are completely inflexible when it comes to words.

749
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:21,039
Speaker 2: Yep, Paradigms provide meaningful answers. Okay, So metaphysics has always

750
00:52:21,079 --> 00:52:25,679
been an integral part of theological understanding. It's crucial for

751
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:30,320
the ecumenical councils. You read Saint Basil and Saint Gregory's

752
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,760
treatises on against Eunomius, you will see clearly that they're

753
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:39,880
going into metaphysics. You read Saint Cyril, Saint Maximus. Metaphysics

754
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:45,559
is everywhere, and it should be apparent to people that

755
00:52:45,679 --> 00:52:50,159
you need metaphysics to just simply even understand what is

756
00:52:50,199 --> 00:52:53,519
meant by simple questions like what do you mean by hypostasis?

757
00:52:54,559 --> 00:52:56,920
You need to under you need to explain hypostasis. Well,

758
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,639
you need a metaphysical paradigm to understand hypostasis fees usia.

759
00:53:01,119 --> 00:53:05,039
So to provide an answer to what do you mean

760
00:53:05,039 --> 00:53:11,679
by hypostasis is inherently to answer a metaphysical question. But

761
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:16,480
now what follows. Some of you may be familiar from

762
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,400
my community post that I made. I lifted that material

763
00:53:19,519 --> 00:53:21,840
to put it into these slides because I think it

764
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:27,840
will illustrate the point. So then you will hear the

765
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,719
Orientals go on and babble in their streams for hours

766
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,360
on end and try to provide you the context of oh,

767
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,239
this is really what Saint Cyril was talking about. But

768
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:45,559
then you start questioning them on bigger questions within Orthodoxy,

769
00:53:46,159 --> 00:53:50,800
like orthodoxy proper that Orthodoxy can address. But can they

770
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:55,880
provide the same kinds of responses, And in my estimation,

771
00:53:56,039 --> 00:53:58,599
I don't think that they can, because you never hear

772
00:53:58,639 --> 00:54:05,199
them talking about these bigger level questions like, for example,

773
00:54:06,119 --> 00:54:11,480
would Christ have incarnated irrespective of the Fall? I have

774
00:54:11,599 --> 00:54:19,000
never once heard any Oriental or historian ever talk about that.

775
00:54:19,559 --> 00:54:23,119
Now in Orthodoxy we talk about it. We have an answer,

776
00:54:23,119 --> 00:54:27,760
we will say yes. But this is a question that

777
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:34,440
you cannot answer without having a paradigm. And so in

778
00:54:35,159 --> 00:54:37,960
if you do provide the answer, then give us the

779
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:42,679
explanation why this would not be the case. So go

780
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:47,320
and ask the Orientals. Go and ask Aigan to explain

781
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,880
to you whether or not Christ would have incarnated irrespective

782
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,199
of the fall, and see what he's going to say,

783
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,239
and then ask him, well, how do you know that

784
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,199
what's your paradigm? How is your paradi I'm informing you

785
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:05,599
of that, And then go and ask Aigan because he

786
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,760
so much really wants to have a debate with us,

787
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,320
and you guys are saying debate agen, So just hold

788
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:17,519
on to that thought. What is the purpose of our existence? Now,

789
00:55:17,679 --> 00:55:20,800
Orthodoxy is going to give you a very straightforward answer.

790
00:55:21,039 --> 00:55:24,159
I's gonna say it's theosis. It's very clear, Theosis. That's

791
00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:27,119
the purpose of our existence. But you go and ask

792
00:55:27,199 --> 00:55:29,960
Aigan what is the purpose of our existence? He's not

793
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:35,960
gonna tell you theosis because Orientals reject the concept of theosis.

794
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,920
He's gonna give you maybe some other nonsensical answer. And

795
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:46,920
then you ask, how can the saints hear our prayers? Okay, Well,

796
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:52,039
good luck answering that question if you reject the energy's doctrine,

797
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:56,199
because without the energy's doctrine, it doesn't make sense that

798
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,280
the saints can hear our prayers. Okay, and that is

799
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,079
part of the metaphise paradigm. Okay, So when the Orientals

800
00:56:03,599 --> 00:56:09,760
reject energies, ask them, how do the saints here are prayers?

801
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,599
And let's see and ask them, how do you know

802
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:20,760
what's your paradigm what informs you? Okay, So these paradigm

803
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:24,920
level questions, they inform us of what orthodoxy teaches, and

804
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,199
it contrasts that with the various heresies, and it's what

805
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:33,320
sets everyone apart. And so what we're doing here is

806
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:38,239
we're elevating the discussion so that it's not just about

807
00:56:38,679 --> 00:56:44,480
what does person so and so say. It's elucidating the worldview,

808
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:49,960
the paradigm of what person so and so is actually

809
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:54,719
promoting when they say such and such. What is the paradigm?

810
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:59,480
What is the worldview? Okay? And now let's look in

811
00:56:59,519 --> 00:57:03,599
a little bit more detail in exactly these three questions.

812
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:09,039
How do we understand it as orthodox? So why would

813
00:57:09,079 --> 00:57:15,760
Christ incarnate irrespective of the fall? Well, Christ wants to

814
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:20,840
unite creation or slash humanity unto himself in order to

815
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:26,880
make accessible the divine love to creation to humanity. So

816
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:33,159
now here is the implications of Christ being a divine

817
00:57:33,239 --> 00:57:38,920
only hypostasis. So, the Father loves the son, and if

818
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:42,960
the son incarnates, then the divine love that the Father

819
00:57:43,239 --> 00:57:46,519
has for the son equally applies to the son's human

820
00:57:46,599 --> 00:57:50,679
mode of existence, because the son, in his divinity and

821
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:55,960
humanity is one in the same hypostasis, and so receiving

822
00:57:56,039 --> 00:58:00,880
the Father's love becomes proper to human nature, which in

823
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:07,679
turn allows us to also receive the Father's love through Christ. Okay,

824
00:58:08,039 --> 00:58:12,280
so now ask the Orientals, how are you going to

825
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,599
receive the Father's love? Why does Christ need to have

826
00:58:15,639 --> 00:58:19,960
a human hypostasis in order for humanity to receive the

827
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:26,159
Father's love or to be partakers of divine love? Okay?

828
00:58:26,199 --> 00:58:30,440
Now why is theosis necessary? So we all know of

829
00:58:30,519 --> 00:58:35,920
the image of God within us, but Scripture uses another

830
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:40,440
term in addition to image of God. Scripture talks about

831
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:45,039
the likeness of God, and so what is the likeness

832
00:58:45,119 --> 00:58:48,599
of God? Well, as humans, we have the potential to

833
00:58:48,639 --> 00:58:52,000
be godly, and so we read in the Fathers. You'll

834
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,360
see it in Saint Maximus, and I believe it, you'll

835
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:59,679
see it in Saint Anthonasius, where it's basically God became

836
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,039
man and so that man can become God. And actualizing

837
00:59:04,079 --> 00:59:10,719
this potential is impossible without deification. And so I come

838
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:14,079
up with this analogy. Think of it as still images

839
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:19,320
versus motion film. So the still images have the potential

840
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,639
to be expressed as motion film, in other words, like

841
00:59:22,679 --> 00:59:25,800
to be brought to life. And what does Christ teach us?

842
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:31,119
Don't consider ourselves alive unless He dwells in us. And

843
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:35,480
it's through deification in Christ that this image of God

844
00:59:35,599 --> 00:59:38,840
within us is given life and we live in the

845
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:43,760
likeness of God. Okay, And then why is it that

846
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:48,079
saints can hear our prayers? Because they're energetically united in

847
00:59:48,199 --> 00:59:52,440
Christ and participate in His divine activities. And it's though

848
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:57,039
the saints do not become divine in essence, they are

849
00:59:57,079 --> 01:00:01,920
alive in Christ and participate in the day energies. And

850
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:04,679
it's in this way that we are in communion with

851
01:00:04,719 --> 01:00:10,000
one another and the saints in Christ. And what's more

852
01:00:10,199 --> 01:00:14,400
is when you start looking at these types of questions

853
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:20,119
and answering them to create for you a worldview. So

854
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,760
all of these paradigm level questions they interpenetrate each other.

855
01:00:24,039 --> 01:00:28,719
The metaphysics, it has a grounding that interpenetrates all of this,

856
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:35,440
and it creates for you a coherent worldview. Okay. So

857
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:40,159
I would say for the Orientals, for the Nestorians, go

858
01:00:40,239 --> 01:00:45,559
and talk to a Muslim and present your metaphysical paradigms

859
01:00:46,119 --> 01:00:51,400
and try to answer to the Muslim satisfaction. These types

860
01:00:51,599 --> 01:00:55,679
of questions and try to present to him a coherent

861
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:59,039
worldview that he can look at. Oh, this is what

862
01:00:59,199 --> 01:01:04,000
Islam teaches about God and God's relationship to creation, and

863
01:01:04,199 --> 01:01:08,920
this is what Christianity teaches. Okay, you will not be

864
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:12,119
able to give this type of a worldview from the

865
01:01:12,239 --> 01:01:17,199
Oriental position or from the Nestorian position. Absolutely not. You

866
01:01:17,239 --> 01:01:21,639
will not be able to explain this concept of prayers

867
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:26,840
to saints or theosis. Why is theosis important? You're not

868
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,599
going to get that, And good luck trying to convince

869
01:01:30,239 --> 01:01:34,159
a Muslim of your Oriental paradigm why he should become

870
01:01:34,159 --> 01:01:41,440
a Christian. In denying theosis and the essence energies distinction,

871
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:46,599
the Orientals implicitly deny that the image of God has

872
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:52,639
any real meaning and participation in God is not possible.

873
01:01:53,559 --> 01:01:56,519
And so then as a result of that, praying to

874
01:01:56,559 --> 01:01:59,559
the saints and being in communion with one another it

875
01:01:59,599 --> 01:02:04,199
makes no sense. And it's because they don't understand the

876
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:09,239
ultimate purpose of Christ's incarnation, which is the transfiguration of

877
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:16,039
the cosmos to unite with Christ. Now, does Christ's incarnation

878
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:20,639
redeem us from our sins? Absolutely, not just the incarnation,

879
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,239
but like his death and resurrection, absolutely redeems Us from

880
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:29,360
our sins. But more than that, Christ's incarnation is ultimately

881
01:02:29,519 --> 01:02:35,360
about transfiguration, and that is not possible if you deny

882
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:40,800
theosis like the Orientals do. Okay, And it's very interesting

883
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:46,519
because the Nestorians also deny Theosis. But and we will

884
01:02:46,519 --> 01:02:48,639
talk about this when we get to the Synods of

885
01:02:49,239 --> 01:02:53,639
the Church of the East. There was that strain that

886
01:02:53,679 --> 01:02:58,400
I was talking about that is more Orthodox, not completely Orthodox,

887
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,920
but more in line with Orthodoxy, that existed historically within

888
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,119
the Church of the East. They actually held to a

889
01:03:06,119 --> 01:03:11,559
form of Theosis, and that got stamped out after the

890
01:03:11,599 --> 01:03:15,760
Nestorianization thoroughly of everywhere in the Church of the East.

891
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,320
That branch that existed within the Church of the East,

892
01:03:19,639 --> 01:03:23,840
they got stamped out, but they recognized a form of Theosis.

893
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:28,039
And so when we examine the writings of Saint Cyril

894
01:03:28,079 --> 01:03:31,119
and others, we look to their paradigms in order to

895
01:03:31,199 --> 01:03:36,039
understand what they are attempting to convey explicitly as well

896
01:03:36,079 --> 01:03:40,800
as implicitly. Okay, And so even though the Orthodox and

897
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:45,639
the Orientals hold Saint Cyril as a common saint, it's

898
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:50,760
our Orthodox reading of him that will present the more

899
01:03:51,119 --> 01:03:58,079
coherent and meaningful worldview. So now let's look at what

900
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:03,119
Saint Cyril is right. And in this particular case, I'm

901
01:04:03,159 --> 01:04:07,159
looking at his third letter to Nestorius. In the previous dreams,

902
01:04:07,199 --> 01:04:10,480
we're looking at his letters to Emperor Theodosius. Now I'm

903
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:12,880
going to look at his third letter to Nestorius. And

904
01:04:13,039 --> 01:04:15,559
this is an important letter and we're going to come

905
01:04:15,639 --> 01:04:19,960
back to it when we look at the ecumenical councils proper.

906
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:26,199
But it's also relevant for understanding paradigms, and so in it,

907
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:30,719
Saint Cyril writes stuff like this, So assert that the

908
01:04:30,719 --> 01:04:37,280
Son of God is from another hypostasis or essence in

909
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:42,679
this case in the Greek essences usia, or is changeable

910
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:50,480
or mutable. These the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes. Okay,

911
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:57,360
So here we see Saint Cyril is using hypostasis in

912
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:03,199
the sense of essence. Okay, And this is really important.

913
01:05:03,559 --> 01:05:07,639
This using one term or another term. This is common

914
01:05:07,639 --> 01:05:10,800
in Saint Cyril, where he's basically saying, I'm going to

915
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,280
be using this term, but I want you to understand it.

916
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,920
In this sense, he's not giving you a either this

917
01:05:18,239 --> 01:05:22,760
or that. He's saying this, but understand it in this sense,

918
01:05:23,199 --> 01:05:25,519
and so you'll see it later on in the same

919
01:05:25,599 --> 01:05:30,679
letter where he's doing that with hypostasis again. Now the

920
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,360
next thing, what does he say, not rejecting what he

921
01:05:33,519 --> 01:05:37,840
was before, but even after the assumption of flesh and blood,

922
01:05:38,159 --> 01:05:42,800
remaining what he was before, namely God in nature or

923
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:48,199
feces and truth. For he is utterly changeless and immutable,

924
01:05:48,639 --> 01:05:54,960
ever remaining the same according to the scriptures. So this

925
01:05:55,079 --> 01:05:59,320
is really important. Even after the assumption of flesh and blood,

926
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:07,320
what he was before? Well, what was he before? He

927
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:08,599
was a divine hypostasis?

928
01:06:08,719 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 1: Yes, Maximus says this too consistently. He underwent no change.

929
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:14,440
We confess this, by the way.

930
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:18,079
Speaker 2: Yes, he underwent no change. So what was he before?

931
01:06:18,159 --> 01:06:22,840
You ask yourself that simple question, Agan, what was he before?

932
01:06:23,679 --> 01:06:29,039
He was a divine hypostasis? And after the assumption of

933
01:06:29,079 --> 01:06:31,960
the flesh and blood, what did he remain? He remained

934
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:40,039
what he was before? What was that? A divine hypostasis? Continuing,

935
01:06:40,639 --> 01:06:44,159
we are to think of one Christ, Jesus, only begotten son,

936
01:06:44,599 --> 01:06:47,320
honored with a single worship together with his own flesh.

937
01:06:48,119 --> 01:06:50,840
We professed that the very one born from God, the

938
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:57,639
Father as Son and only begotten God, despite being impassible

939
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:06,920
in his own nature. Oh, what is his own nature divine?

940
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:13,679
So it's talking about the constitution of Christ, the ontology

941
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:18,559
of Christ. What do you mean when you say mea feces.

942
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:22,960
You're talking about the constitution of Christ. So he is

943
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:28,079
the Son and only begotten God despite being impassable in

944
01:07:28,159 --> 01:07:32,760
his own nature. Oh, we're talking about the divine hypostasis.

945
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:37,840
Yet it's that divine hypostasis, as Saint Cyril tells us

946
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,880
suffered in the flesh for us according to the scriptures,

947
01:07:42,079 --> 01:07:46,079
and was in the crucified body, making his own the

948
01:07:46,119 --> 01:07:54,639
sufferings of his own flesh, though impassibly. Okay, though impassibly.

949
01:07:56,320 --> 01:08:00,320
It's not talking about a human hypostasis or this non

950
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:04,599
self subsistent human hypostasis. No, it's talking about the Sun

951
01:08:04,679 --> 01:08:08,599
and only Begotten God, impossible in his own nature feces,

952
01:08:09,119 --> 01:08:13,800
which is a divine hypostasis. By nature or feces, he

953
01:08:14,079 --> 01:08:19,439
is life and is himself the resurrection. That means the

954
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:26,760
divine hypostasis that is Christ. He is life, not idioms,

955
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:32,039
not human idioms that come to be with Christ. Once

956
01:08:32,239 --> 01:08:37,399
there's an infleshment. He is life. And who is the he? Oh,

957
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:41,319
that he who was before the incarnation, who was before

958
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:47,760
the incarnation? Oh, that's right, the divine hypostasis. You see

959
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:55,279
the paradigm that Saint Cyril is presenting to us. Let's continue.

960
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:57,840
Even though the resurrection of the dead is said to

961
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:04,520
have been through man, we nevertheless understand man to be

962
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:12,640
the word begotten from God is a human hypostasis. Begotten

963
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:19,439
of God is the human hypostasis, the word begotten from God.

964
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:27,720
We nevertheless understand man to be the word begotten from God.

965
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:31,079
Oh that sounds to me like he's talking about the

966
01:09:31,119 --> 01:09:34,960
divine hypostasis. That's Christ, that's the Sun, that's the logos.

967
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:39,520
As for the saying of our Savior in the Gospels,

968
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:45,439
we do not distribute them between two hypostasies or persons.

969
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:50,920
So now here's an interesting case where he's now talking

970
01:09:51,159 --> 01:09:57,439
directly to Nestorius in his dual subject christology, but now

971
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:01,279
he's using hypostasis in a different sense, So he's hypostasis

972
01:10:01,359 --> 01:10:05,680
or persons. So right there we see in that same

973
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:11,880
letter how Saint Cyril is using that word hypostasis, and

974
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:15,279
he's defining it in two different senses, and he's being

975
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:19,359
very clear that he does that. So you can clearly

976
01:10:19,399 --> 01:10:22,800
see that Saint Cyril is very precise in his paradigm,

977
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,760
and he's very precise in the wordings when he needs

978
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:28,720
to elicit exactly what it is that he wants you

979
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:34,079
to understand. For the one and only Christ is not twofold,

980
01:10:34,239 --> 01:10:36,319
even if he has thought of us having come together

981
01:10:36,439 --> 01:10:43,720
into inseparable union from two different realities. And here the

982
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:49,039
Greek is using the word pragma, So the word pragma

983
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:55,760
is basically referring to the ant hypostatization, and so at

984
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:58,239
that in the time of Saint Cyril, he did not

985
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:04,199
have the vocabulary to express an hyposthetization that comes later.

986
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:10,000
But the basic idea of n hypostatization is right there

987
01:11:10,319 --> 01:11:15,560
in Saint Cyril. Okay, So the union is coming from

988
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:22,640
two different realities, not two different like concretizations of hypostasis

989
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:28,479
from two different realities. Because the one and only Christ

990
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:32,560
is not twofold. It is exactly how the Orthodox teach

991
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:41,000
you have. Christ is one divine hypostasis, and he's inseparable

992
01:11:41,399 --> 01:11:45,760
in an inseparable union in two different realities. That one

993
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:49,319
divine hypostasis existing in a divine way and in a

994
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:55,760
human way, and simultaneously existing like that is a union,

995
01:11:56,079 --> 01:12:00,640
and it is inseparable because once Christ in cars, he

996
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:04,960
never ceases to be human or to exist in a

997
01:12:05,319 --> 01:12:09,840
human mode of existence, and he never ceases to exist

998
01:12:10,319 --> 01:12:14,359
in his divinity. Okay, just as for instance, man has

999
01:12:14,399 --> 01:12:16,720
thought of us coming together from soul and body, and

1000
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:23,039
yet is not twofold, but one from both. He says

1001
01:12:23,079 --> 01:12:26,720
to the Jews, now you are seeking to kill me,

1002
01:12:27,359 --> 01:12:29,840
a man who has told you the truth. Know Less,

1003
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:33,199
again do we recognize him as God, the Word in

1004
01:12:33,319 --> 01:12:37,359
equality and likeness with the Father, despite the limitations of

1005
01:12:37,399 --> 01:12:42,800
his manhood. For indeed, we must believe that being God

1006
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:49,439
by nature feces he became flesh, that is, man in

1007
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:54,920
soul by a rational soul. So what is the nature

1008
01:12:55,199 --> 01:13:02,279
of Christ? What is sincerel saying divine being God by nature,

1009
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:09,439
and that divinity, that divine person becomes in fleshed. So

1010
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:13,279
his thesis is not changing. He is not taking onto

1011
01:13:13,359 --> 01:13:20,920
himself a human hypostatic component. His thesis. His nature remains

1012
01:13:21,119 --> 01:13:26,399
the ontology, the hypostatic intology, that is, the divine person.

1013
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:31,039
All the sayings in the Gospels are to be attributed

1014
01:13:31,079 --> 01:13:38,359
to a single person prosopon the one incarnate hypostasis of

1015
01:13:39,159 --> 01:13:45,319
the word. So here you have hypostasis being equivalent to prosopon.

1016
01:13:46,399 --> 01:13:50,359
But notice here what Saint Cyril is saying. There's that

1017
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:54,359
famous phrase, the one incarnate nature of the word. But

1018
01:13:54,520 --> 01:14:02,319
here Saint Cyril is saying one incarnate hypostasis of the word. Oh,

1019
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:07,279
let's go back. What did Saint Cyril say earlier, even

1020
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:12,479
after the assumption of flesh and blood, remaining what he

1021
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:19,319
was before? What was he before? Oh? That's right, he

1022
01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:23,680
was a divine hypostasis, and after incarnating, he remained what

1023
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:28,000
he was before. What was he a divine hypostasis? Oh?

1024
01:14:28,159 --> 01:14:31,640
But what does it say here a single person pross

1025
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:37,640
upon the one incarnate hypostasis of the word one hypostasis.

1026
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:42,920
Oh wait a minute, Christ incarnates, there's one incarnate hypostasis

1027
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:46,159
of the word. He remains what he was before. What

1028
01:14:46,239 --> 01:14:50,159
was he before? He was a divine hippostasi. Oh that

1029
01:14:50,279 --> 01:14:54,760
kind of looks like Saint Cyril's paradigm is that Christ

1030
01:14:55,079 --> 01:15:04,119
is a divine only hypostasis. Hmmm, gee, I'd like.

1031
01:15:04,159 --> 01:15:08,039
Speaker 1: To add I was reminded pulling this book out to

1032
01:15:08,119 --> 01:15:12,039
back up pretty much everything that Kay is saying right

1033
01:15:12,079 --> 01:15:14,880
around two thousand and seven or eight a very importantcum me.

1034
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:16,359
It came out in two thousand and four from Saint

1035
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:20,159
Vladimir's and I'm not recommending everything from this person, but

1036
01:15:20,239 --> 01:15:23,359
this book is really really important, not just for helping

1037
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:26,439
with the issue that we're discussing today, but in two

1038
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:29,920
thousand and eight I read the book and it pretty

1039
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:34,279
much flushed out most of my Western errors when it

1040
01:15:34,319 --> 01:15:37,920
came to the incarnation and even the sort of latent

1041
01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:42,520
in the Storian tendencies that I had coming from Latin

1042
01:15:43,279 --> 01:15:47,760
Catholicism and Calvinistic Protestantism. There's a really good book called

1043
01:15:48,439 --> 01:15:52,960
Saint Cyril of Alexandria and the Christological Controversy, and not

1044
01:15:53,119 --> 01:15:56,039
many people have read the entire text. I've read it

1045
01:15:56,119 --> 01:15:59,239
at least twice. And if you read through this book,

1046
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:03,239
most of what we're discussing is demonstrated to literally be

1047
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:08,600
directly in Saint Cyril, even to the point of well

1048
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:11,680
everything that Kay's talking about right now. The identity of

1049
01:16:12,079 --> 01:16:14,720
the divine hypostasis of the word. I mean, this is

1050
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:21,520
covered in pages It's covered also on pages one ninety

1051
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:25,399
five that the single subject is the identical subject before

1052
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:27,960
and after the incarnation. That's the person of the word.

1053
01:16:29,079 --> 01:16:31,079
And then I would add too that at the end

1054
01:16:31,079 --> 01:16:34,960
of the text you don't just have the deposition of Nestorius,

1055
01:16:35,159 --> 01:16:40,279
which again refutes this voice of reason saying that Ephysis

1056
01:16:40,359 --> 01:16:42,680
got it wrong about Nestorius. Well, that means that the

1057
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:46,319
twelve anathemas are also wrong because they explicitly condemned the

1058
01:16:46,359 --> 01:16:53,000
stories's positions. It also explicitly condemns the dual subject theology,

1059
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:56,600
but also the deposition of Nestorius, which is included in

1060
01:16:56,640 --> 01:17:00,479
this text, plus the two letters of Serial two six cents,

1061
01:17:01,039 --> 01:17:07,399
which include two natures after the incarnation and resurrection. So

1062
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:10,840
these are problem texts that a lot of Orientals are

1063
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:12,800
not going to want to talk about, especially the two

1064
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:15,319
letters to six sensus that Cyrial wrote later on.

1065
01:17:16,199 --> 01:17:21,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so since the Holy Virgin gave fleshley birth

1066
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:24,680
to God united to flesh hypostatically, for this reason, we

1067
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:27,840
declare her to be theotokos, not as if the nature

1068
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:30,479
or the thesis of the word had the beginning. Oh

1069
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:35,720
wait a minute, the nature the thesis of the word, what's

1070
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:39,640
the nature, physis of the word. It's the divinity.

1071
01:17:40,279 --> 01:17:43,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly as we discussed at the very beginning. Okay,

1072
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:47,039
it's what he shares in common with the Father and

1073
01:17:47,079 --> 01:17:48,560
the Spirit exactly.

1074
01:17:49,119 --> 01:17:53,319
Speaker 2: So she's called theotokos because not as if the nature,

1075
01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:56,159
the feasis of the word, which is divine, had the

1076
01:17:56,159 --> 01:17:59,239
beginning of its existence from the flesh, but because as

1077
01:17:59,279 --> 01:18:04,640
we have all ready said, he united manhood to himself,

1078
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:10,520
he postatically and underwent fleshly birth from her womb. What's

1079
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:17,279
the nature of the word divinity, one incarnate hypostasis of

1080
01:18:17,319 --> 01:18:24,520
the word divinity? What was he before divinity? What was

1081
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:27,840
he after he incarnated? Was the same as what he

1082
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:33,159
was before? What is that divinity? Sorry, not like generic divinity,

1083
01:18:33,199 --> 01:18:36,720
but the divine person, because I'm not doing a nature

1084
01:18:36,760 --> 01:18:37,840
person collapse.

1085
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:40,239
Speaker 1: And let me add too that a lot of people

1086
01:18:40,319 --> 01:18:43,000
get confused over this because they say, well, but are

1087
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:46,479
you saying there, he's identical before and after the incarnation,

1088
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,680
So like he didn't become incornate. No, we mean that

1089
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:53,399
he underwent no substantial change. He never ceased being a

1090
01:18:53,439 --> 01:18:56,600
divine subject when he added a new nature to the

1091
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:59,239
one that he already possessed. So he enters into a

1092
01:18:59,279 --> 01:19:02,560
new mode of but that new mode of being didn't

1093
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:10,000
change his divinity. It never ceased being divine, right, and

1094
01:19:10,119 --> 01:19:13,079
he didn't become a tertiam quid hybrid that is neither

1095
01:19:13,159 --> 01:19:14,680
human nor divine, but some mix.

1096
01:19:15,159 --> 01:19:18,359
Speaker 2: But some mix right. And the Orientals they think they've

1097
01:19:18,479 --> 01:19:21,239
answered the objection to the tertiam quid argument, they have not.

1098
01:19:22,279 --> 01:19:24,600
I'll touch upon that, but that's gonna come a lot

1099
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:28,760
later in series with the whole thing. But now there

1100
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:31,239
are just two brief points just to finish up with

1101
01:19:31,279 --> 01:19:33,880
Saint Cyril here, and that's when we get into those

1102
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:37,640
twelve anathemas proper. And so it says, if anyone in

1103
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:41,760
respect of the One Christ separates the hypostasis after the union,

1104
01:19:42,079 --> 01:19:45,000
joining them in mere conjunction according to dignity or authority

1105
01:19:45,119 --> 01:19:47,600
or lordship, and not rather by a coming together in

1106
01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:53,600
natural union, let him be anathema. So now this is

1107
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:59,840
where the Orientals will say, well, Saint Cyril here is

1108
01:20:00,039 --> 01:20:04,920
teaching the One Christ has multiple hypostases because you can't

1109
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:08,560
separate the hypostasis. He's basically saying to the stories, you

1110
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:15,119
can't separate the hypostasis after the union. You have to

1111
01:20:15,199 --> 01:20:20,760
keep them together, because if you separate them, then that's anathema.

1112
01:20:21,199 --> 01:20:23,359
And so then the Orientals a point to say, as well,

1113
01:20:23,359 --> 01:20:29,399
you see Saint Cyril is promoting this notion of hypostasis. Well,

1114
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:34,159
there's a problem here because we already know that in

1115
01:20:34,279 --> 01:20:39,640
the same letter Saint Cyril is using the word hypostasis

1116
01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:47,079
in different senses. And just look at the next anathema. Afterwards,

1117
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:53,279
he says, if anyone ascribes to two persons prosopa or hypostasis,

1118
01:20:54,800 --> 01:21:02,479
So here you have this identification with prosopa two persons

1119
01:21:03,039 --> 01:21:08,279
with hypostasis. So he's saying, okay, we can understand hypostasis

1120
01:21:08,319 --> 01:21:11,039
and prospa in the same stuff. If anyone ascribes to

1121
01:21:11,119 --> 01:21:14,600
two persons or hypostasis the sayings and the Gospels and

1122
01:21:14,680 --> 01:21:18,760
apostolic writings. Oh wait a minute, So if we use

1123
01:21:18,840 --> 01:21:24,720
the Oriental logic, is Saint Cyril advocating that actually, in

1124
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:29,239
Christ there are two persons and it's the two persons

1125
01:21:29,279 --> 01:21:33,279
that unite into one because.

1126
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:34,439
Speaker 1: The words only have one reference.

1127
01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:37,600
Speaker 2: I guess, so yeah, words have only run one reference.

1128
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:43,640
So but then hold on a second. If we acknowledge

1129
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:46,640
that Saint Cyril is teaching that, oh, there are actually

1130
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:52,640
two persons united in Christ, well, isn't that a prosopic union?

1131
01:21:52,720 --> 01:21:55,319
But wait a minute, was in Saint Cyril opposed to

1132
01:21:55,359 --> 01:22:00,920
a prosopic union, he promoted a hypostatic union. So then

1133
01:22:01,359 --> 01:22:05,520
if Saint Cyril in the previous anathema is teaching, oh,

1134
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:09,039
there are multiple hypostasis in Christ, but then in the

1135
01:22:09,079 --> 01:22:12,439
mathema afterwards he's saying, well, we can understand hypostasis in

1136
01:22:12,479 --> 01:22:15,600
the as prosopon, and Saint Cyril is saying, well, if

1137
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:19,239
anyone ascribes to two persons, but then hold on a second,

1138
01:22:19,279 --> 01:22:26,680
so are the two persons in union? Wait, oh, sh man,

1139
01:22:27,279 --> 01:22:31,439
I'm sorry for you orientals that you guys can't logic. Yeah,

1140
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:35,000
I'm really sorry about that. Yeah, Eigan, I'm really running

1141
01:22:35,039 --> 01:22:37,520
from a debate from you. Yeah, because you know you're

1142
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:42,880
just gonna you're gonna just metaphysic trump me. Yeah, okay, sure, buddy, whatever.

1143
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:50,560
You see, it's this kind of inability to nuance the language,

1144
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:55,600
to nuance the paradigms. To see what has Saint Cyril

1145
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:59,920
been talking up to this point, Because the letter ends

1146
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:07,479
with these anathemas, so we're coming into these anathemas with

1147
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:12,079
everything else prior to it. That Saint Cyril is teaching

1148
01:23:12,199 --> 01:23:16,520
us and to telling us what his paradigm is. Right,

1149
01:23:17,479 --> 01:23:20,479
So how is he saying it? So he says, as

1150
01:23:20,520 --> 01:23:23,159
for the saying of our Savior in the Gospels, we

1151
01:23:23,319 --> 01:23:28,199
do not distribute them between two hypostases or persons. He's

1152
01:23:28,239 --> 01:23:32,119
talking about this, and that's what that anathema is referring to.

1153
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:36,199
And what was Saint Cyril talking about here? The one

1154
01:23:36,239 --> 01:23:40,560
and only Christ? Remember, the one and only Christ, that is,

1155
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:44,119
the one incarnate hypostasis of the word or single person

1156
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:48,319
that remained as he was before. What was he before?

1157
01:23:48,399 --> 01:23:52,279
He was a divine hypostasis, and he didn't change after incarnating.

1158
01:23:52,319 --> 01:23:56,079
So what was he before? A divine hypostasis. But the

1159
01:23:56,359 --> 01:23:59,439
single the one and only Christ, is not twofold, and

1160
01:23:59,479 --> 01:24:03,359
it's an in separable union of what two different realities

1161
01:24:03,399 --> 01:24:12,479
pragma and hyposthetizations. So what he's saying here in this anathema,

1162
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:19,399
he's saying not about Christ being a hyposthetizing two natures

1163
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:24,319
as being anathema. He's talking about the historian position where

1164
01:24:24,319 --> 01:24:30,039
you have these concretizations of the natures into divine and humans,

1165
01:24:30,079 --> 01:24:34,439
so that you have a dual subject. Yeah, you've got

1166
01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:38,000
a dual subject existing. And so because you have a

1167
01:24:38,119 --> 01:24:41,800
dual subjects, even if they're conjoined in some way, you

1168
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:46,000
would attribute the divine actions in the gospels to the

1169
01:24:46,039 --> 01:24:51,039
divine subject and the human actions to the human subject.

1170
01:24:51,359 --> 01:24:54,399
And that's what Saint Cyril is saying, is no, you

1171
01:24:54,520 --> 01:24:59,920
cannot do that. Christ is one and only and the

1172
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:05,880
so he exists in the two different realities. And so

1173
01:25:06,319 --> 01:25:10,319
all of the activities that you see in the Gospels,

1174
01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:16,600
you attribute them to Christ directly. You predicate them directly

1175
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:22,000
to Christ, directly to Jesus, directly to the Logos, directly

1176
01:25:22,119 --> 01:25:27,000
to the Sun. Those are all identities across the board.

1177
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:32,359
And so it's in that sense that we understand this

1178
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:36,279
third anathema. And so we know that Christ that Saint

1179
01:25:36,359 --> 01:25:41,800
Cyril is not advocating for two persons in Christ. So

1180
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:48,399
you cannot understand the previous anathema to mean that Christ

1181
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:55,680
has multiple hypostases in the prosopic sense, in the concretized sense.

1182
01:25:56,439 --> 01:25:59,600
So what is he talking about? What is Saint Cyril

1183
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:04,439
talking about about in that previous anathema, If anyone in

1184
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:08,439
respect of the one Christ separates the hypostasis after the union,

1185
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:12,800
meaning the modes of existence the ant hypostaitization saying that

1186
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:19,119
Christ can divorce his divine existence from his human existence

1187
01:26:21,319 --> 01:26:25,239
or joining them in mere conjunction, meaning that you have

1188
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:32,920
separable divine existences and human existences that come together either

1189
01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:38,479
into a conjunction or a separation. So go ahead if

1190
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:43,319
you want to believe that Christ or that Saint Cyril

1191
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:47,840
taught that there were two persons in Christ that united

1192
01:26:48,399 --> 01:26:51,800
into one person, which is a pro sofic union, which

1193
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:58,399
Saint Cyril rejected. I mean, your argumentation is just unraveling.

1194
01:26:58,640 --> 01:27:04,079
Before you please present your paradigm. How you're gonna resolve

1195
01:27:04,119 --> 01:27:07,000
all this. Oh, that's right. You're gonna go to history

1196
01:27:07,039 --> 01:27:10,359
and you're gonna tell us what the Church taught historically,

1197
01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:13,920
because you're gonna just invent what the Church taught historically.

1198
01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:16,880
You don't want to go into paradigms because you know what,

1199
01:27:17,279 --> 01:27:20,000
you're not able to do paradigms. So you're just gonna

1200
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:23,159
poo poo the paradigms because you're not capable of it.

1201
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:25,479
Speaker 1: All right, So for the people that are getting confused

1202
01:27:25,479 --> 01:27:31,319
in the chat, to put this simply, the words are flexible,

1203
01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:35,359
but eventually they come to be pretty consistently an orthodox

1204
01:27:35,399 --> 01:27:38,960
theology to mean, and I mean our position to mean

1205
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:42,600
a distinction between nature and person. It's that simple, and

1206
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:47,720
that distinction is necessary to have trinitarian theology and to

1207
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:52,119
have Christology. To have the distinction between nature and person.

1208
01:27:52,159 --> 01:27:56,800
The Trinity is necessary for a triad, but it's necessarily

1209
01:27:56,840 --> 01:28:01,399
going to reflect into Christology because it's one of the

1210
01:28:01,439 --> 01:28:03,960
Holy Trinity who became incarnate, so there's going to be

1211
01:28:04,039 --> 01:28:09,119
the same nature person distinction. It's necessary further because it's

1212
01:28:09,159 --> 01:28:13,319
not the Trinity that became incarnate. It's one hypostasis of

1213
01:28:13,359 --> 01:28:16,119
the Trinity that entered into time and space and became man.

1214
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:19,439
But he never ceases to be God and to be

1215
01:28:19,479 --> 01:28:22,640
a divine subject because it's the same subject as before

1216
01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:26,640
the incarnation, but he now enters into a mode of being.

1217
01:28:27,119 --> 01:28:30,640
Hence you need to have a theology of mode or

1218
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:35,840
in hypostatized where the human nature that he assumed becomes

1219
01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:41,439
truly improperly his full humanity. It's not a human subject,

1220
01:28:41,960 --> 01:28:45,520
not a human hypostasis, not a human person, not a

1221
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:50,920
human agent. The only subject, person an agent in the

1222
01:28:50,920 --> 01:28:54,800
incarnation is the identically same subject, person, and agent prior

1223
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:58,960
to the incarnation. The second person of the Trinity. Thus,

1224
01:28:59,039 --> 01:29:03,560
by necessity there's only one divine subject that refutes Nestorianism.

1225
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:08,359
But it also, by extension, refutes the oriental position or

1226
01:29:08,399 --> 01:29:13,880
the Coptic position, because it never ceases to be two

1227
01:29:13,960 --> 01:29:17,720
natures fully in union. Now here's a point. I think that,

1228
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:19,560
and this will come up later. I don't mean to

1229
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:21,920
get ahead of kai, but I can anticipate. I think

1230
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:23,479
where a lot of people are going to have objections,

1231
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,279
and that's well. Now, wait a minute. Doesn't there have

1232
01:29:26,399 --> 01:29:30,279
to be some deification or change in the human nature

1233
01:29:31,000 --> 01:29:35,159
that the Son of God causes or actualizes when he

1234
01:29:35,199 --> 01:29:39,000
becomes incarnate. Yes, there is a deification of the human

1235
01:29:39,079 --> 01:29:42,039
nature in the incarnation, and the sixth Council is very

1236
01:29:42,079 --> 01:29:45,119
explicit about this. How does that happen? Does it happen

1237
01:29:45,199 --> 01:29:48,840
because it creates a tertim quid. No, The essence energy

1238
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:52,680
distinction is crucial as to how the Son of God

1239
01:29:52,920 --> 01:29:55,600
deifies the human nature that he assumes. And it is

1240
01:29:55,680 --> 01:30:01,279
by his uncreated energies, grace and immortality, those uncreated powers

1241
01:30:01,479 --> 01:30:05,159
that the Son of God possesses by nature transform and

1242
01:30:05,239 --> 01:30:08,760
deify the flesh to raise it above. As Cyril says,

1243
01:30:09,039 --> 01:30:13,439
even the blameless passions that he possessed by will when

1244
01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:16,239
he became incarnate, crying, thirsting, et cetera. So when he

1245
01:30:16,279 --> 01:30:21,520
was resurrected, when he transfigured that flesh, it really is deified,

1246
01:30:22,119 --> 01:30:25,319
but it never ceases to be created. You see, he

1247
01:30:25,439 --> 01:30:28,359
never ceases to have a created human nature. Even though

1248
01:30:28,399 --> 01:30:31,239
the flesh is deified. The Sixth Council uses the term

1249
01:30:31,279 --> 01:30:37,399
of fully deified, it still is created. Thus he retains

1250
01:30:37,479 --> 01:30:42,279
the properties of being uncreated in his divinity, created in

1251
01:30:42,319 --> 01:30:47,600
his deified humanity. And he still, in that way underwent

1252
01:30:47,720 --> 01:30:49,920
no change substantially in his divine essence.

1253
01:30:52,279 --> 01:30:56,439
Speaker 2: Yep. And yes we will get to that in the future,

1254
01:30:56,479 --> 01:30:59,039
but not on this stream, but definitely that's coming.

1255
01:30:59,399 --> 01:31:01,239
Speaker 1: Well, I don't mean to get ahead of you, but

1256
01:31:01,359 --> 01:31:05,560
sometimes the Chat has questions that kind of anticipate or

1257
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:06,680
go in that direction.

1258
01:31:07,319 --> 01:31:12,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, so, Saint Cyril. So just kind of

1259
01:31:12,279 --> 01:31:17,560
sum up here is telling us that Christ's heposauticontology never changes.

1260
01:31:18,359 --> 01:31:21,000
And since Christ is co extensive with the Sun or

1261
01:31:21,039 --> 01:31:25,800
the logos as subject, he does not change onto logically

1262
01:31:26,279 --> 01:31:30,000
as a result of incarnating. And that's contrary to both

1263
01:31:30,079 --> 01:31:35,079
the historian and Oriental paradigms who treat Christ as a product,

1264
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:38,039
namely like the addition of a human hypostatus.

1265
01:31:38,159 --> 01:31:41,359
Speaker 1: This is crucial. This is key because the Fifth Council

1266
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:48,119
condemns the position of Christ's hypostasis as product.

1267
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:54,520
Speaker 2: Yep. Now, in his letter, Saint Cyril equates hippos as

1268
01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:58,239
with both usia essence and prosopon at some point, so

1269
01:31:58,279 --> 01:32:02,159
we see that within the same letter, how Saint cereally

1270
01:32:02,319 --> 01:32:06,119
uses the same word in different senses, and so you

1271
01:32:06,159 --> 01:32:10,359
have a potential for word concept fallacy. So you need

1272
01:32:11,239 --> 01:32:16,760
it's necessitated to understand the paradigm in order to understand

1273
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:17,760
and dissembusiness.

1274
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:19,960
Speaker 1: Great guy, this is really really key. So I hope

1275
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:22,520
people are understanding this. And the reason I'm cutting you

1276
01:32:22,560 --> 01:32:26,000
off again or interrupting is because there was a specific

1277
01:32:26,079 --> 01:32:29,239
question super chat that came in about this, and it

1278
01:32:29,399 --> 01:32:34,920
was Nick says, for five dollars, why does some Orientals

1279
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:38,600
say that the issue is only terminology. Their theology is

1280
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:40,560
different from what we believe. That's correct.

1281
01:32:41,199 --> 01:32:41,600
Speaker 2: Correct.

1282
01:32:41,760 --> 01:32:45,119
Speaker 1: Part of it is a terminological issue, but that's only

1283
01:32:45,199 --> 01:32:48,000
part of the problem. And you can't sweep this under

1284
01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:51,079
the rug as well. We are all just using different

1285
01:32:51,159 --> 01:32:52,920
words and meaning the same thing. No. No, it's the

1286
01:32:52,960 --> 01:32:57,199
Oriental position that is wedded to words only having one meaning.

1287
01:32:57,239 --> 01:33:01,279
And that's precisely why there's such an issue here. Terminologically yep.

1288
01:33:01,960 --> 01:33:05,560
Speaker 2: And so we see, Saint Cyril, he is clear Christ

1289
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:11,119
never ceases to be other than his divine hypostatic ontology,

1290
01:33:11,119 --> 01:33:16,720
meaning Christ is not composed of an additional human hypostatic ontology,

1291
01:33:17,319 --> 01:33:20,920
whether it be self subsistent which is what the historians

1292
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:24,239
hold to, or non self subsistent, which is what the

1293
01:33:24,399 --> 01:33:29,760
Orientals hold to. And so metaphysically, what Saint Cyril is

1294
01:33:29,800 --> 01:33:33,279
getting at with the hypostatic union that it's not a

1295
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:39,760
union of prosopic ontologies okay, a hypostasis understood in the

1296
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:46,600
sense of person. Any notion of plurality of hypostasis coming

1297
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:52,239
into a natural union has to be paradigmatically understood as

1298
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:58,920
multiple modes of existences or realities pragrama and hypostatization proper

1299
01:33:59,079 --> 01:34:05,800
to the respective essences, where each n hypostatization has Christ's

1300
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:12,880
divine hypostatic ontology hypostatic in the prosopic sense as subject. Okay.

1301
01:34:13,359 --> 01:34:16,319
And so it's the human idioms that in flesh Christ's

1302
01:34:16,319 --> 01:34:20,960
divine hypostasis such that Christ takes on a new mode

1303
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:27,359
of existence without necessitating a human hypostasis in this clopic sense.

1304
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:30,000
Speaker 1: Right, And to answer the guy's question in the chat,

1305
01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:34,279
didn't he says, didn't you guys say that a nature

1306
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:40,600
requires a hypostasis? The hypostasis of the human nature is

1307
01:34:40,640 --> 01:34:44,920
the hypostasis of the word. That's directly from John Doss. JOHNA.

1308
01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:49,439
Mascus says, the humanity has for its hypostasis the hypostasis

1309
01:34:49,479 --> 01:34:49,880
of the word.

1310
01:34:50,520 --> 01:34:53,079
Speaker 2: Maybe what I can just add to this is the

1311
01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:59,399
metaphysical move that the Nestorians and that the Orientals make

1312
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:06,399
is they will say that every nature that is concretized

1313
01:35:07,159 --> 01:35:12,800
has to have a hypostasis of that kind. And we're saying, is, well, no,

1314
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:16,439
we don't have to subscribe to that metaphysical move. So

1315
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:22,279
we can allow for Christ to be the hypostatic subject

1316
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:26,680
for the human nature. We want to concretize the human

1317
01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:31,840
nature by human hypostasis. We allow Christ's as hypostasis to

1318
01:35:31,960 --> 01:35:33,560
be the subject.

1319
01:35:33,560 --> 01:35:38,720
Speaker 1: Of This is precisely why Saint Cyril or Leontius of

1320
01:35:38,800 --> 01:35:43,439
Jerusalem uses in hypostatized for the human nature. The human

1321
01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:49,159
nature is not of itself a hypostasis, but is in hypostatized,

1322
01:35:49,239 --> 01:35:52,600
meaning it exists in the mode of the divine person

1323
01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:56,079
or the divine hypostasis that assumed it correct.

1324
01:35:57,399 --> 01:36:02,479
Speaker 2: So looking quickly at the austore slash oriental paradigm, so

1325
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:04,199
that actually just leads us to what we were just

1326
01:36:04,239 --> 01:36:07,479
talking about right now. And so what are some of

1327
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:11,079
the major points how to understand what the historian and

1328
01:36:11,119 --> 01:36:13,000
the oriental paradigms are.

1329
01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:15,439
Speaker 1: Before you get into this. Let me read a couple

1330
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:17,399
of these real quick, because a lot of people have

1331
01:36:17,399 --> 01:36:20,359
been waiting for a while. Brody became a member, Bacon

1332
01:36:20,359 --> 01:36:25,960
became a member, Champ became a member. Noah, God's forgive me, honest,

1333
01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:30,520
die cast Yemmy, Christopher Scott. They all became members. Christoph Scott.

1334
01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:33,720
Since five dollars, thank you, wrongful rage sends ten bucks.

1335
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:36,680
Is my birthday? Here's ten dollars. Enjoy your time, God blessed,

1336
01:36:36,680 --> 01:36:40,479
Thank you man. I appreciate that glitchy rhythm sends five

1337
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:44,039
dollars and then rhythm, since another five dollars. My cranium

1338
01:36:44,119 --> 01:36:49,039
is expanding here beyond comprehension. Let's go accept this coin.

1339
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:55,199
Many party on weekends. Some learning built different since your

1340
01:36:55,279 --> 01:36:57,880
hypocrites became a member for four months, And he says,

1341
01:36:58,079 --> 01:37:02,119
I find it ironic that despite the Orientals presenting themselves

1342
01:37:02,199 --> 01:37:06,359
as anti historian, they make the exact same moves and

1343
01:37:06,399 --> 01:37:10,399
mistakes of confusing person in nature or hypostasis in nature

1344
01:37:10,439 --> 01:37:12,800
and go in a different direction exactly. That's why Kai's

1345
01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:13,880
doing the presentation.

1346
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So looking at the paradigms, So for the

1347
01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:26,359
Nestorian oriental paradigm, the nature exists only as a concrete

1348
01:37:26,439 --> 01:37:30,960
hypostatic ontology and hypostasis. And this here, I'm going to

1349
01:37:31,079 --> 01:37:33,439
use the word knuma for the Church of the East

1350
01:37:33,439 --> 01:37:37,800
and Syriac it is equivalent in the sense it's an

1351
01:37:37,840 --> 01:37:44,239
individuated nature. And this whole thing about the Church of

1352
01:37:44,279 --> 01:37:49,279
the East proponents saying, you guys really do not understand

1353
01:37:49,319 --> 01:37:53,560
our theology. You don't know what karuma means. I mean,

1354
01:37:53,880 --> 01:37:58,520
that's getting worn out. This is when you study the

1355
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:00,800
Church of the East, when you look at what they said,

1356
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:05,079
when you look at the interactions with Saint Cyril, when

1357
01:38:05,119 --> 01:38:08,000
you look at the Oriental positions, and you look at

1358
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:15,079
these paradigms, it's quite apparent what you guys mean by knuma. Okay,

1359
01:38:15,479 --> 01:38:20,119
so give it a break. Now, the logos is a

1360
01:38:20,279 --> 01:38:27,039
concrete divine hypostatic ontology. Every human is its own respective

1361
01:38:27,119 --> 01:38:34,319
concrete hypostatic ontology, and that premise there requires, then it

1362
01:38:34,399 --> 01:38:39,520
necessitates for both the historians and the Orientals that Christ,

1363
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:43,359
because Christ is a human being, must also have his

1364
01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:49,039
own respective concrete hypostatic ontology. Okay, and you saw the

1365
01:38:49,159 --> 01:38:52,920
quote from Severus to that effect. And wait until we

1366
01:38:52,960 --> 01:38:55,640
get into part five. We're going to get into a

1367
01:38:55,760 --> 01:38:58,000
lot more of this. We're going to unravel it a

1368
01:38:58,039 --> 01:39:03,279
lot more. Well. In Christ, the divine in human natures

1369
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:08,199
must exist as distinct concrete ontologies in order for Christ

1370
01:39:08,199 --> 01:39:13,199
to be fully divine and fully human, and the divine

1371
01:39:13,199 --> 01:39:18,119
and human hypostatic ontologies juxtapose in the person or to

1372
01:39:18,239 --> 01:39:21,800
use the word prosopone or parsupa in Syriac of Christ.

1373
01:39:22,720 --> 01:39:27,800
There is no new separate hypostatic quote unquote unquote christ ontology.

1374
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:34,239
Concretization of the hypostatic ontologies occurs logically prior to this

1375
01:39:34,600 --> 01:39:39,119
so called prosopic union. And now here we get kind

1376
01:39:39,119 --> 01:39:45,600
of into two branches of where Nestorius would criticize what

1377
01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:50,000
he thought Saint Cyril's position is, but it is actually

1378
01:39:50,039 --> 01:39:52,760
more along the lines of not Saint Cyril, but what

1379
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:57,079
the Orientals do. And so, now, if the two hypostases

1380
01:39:57,199 --> 01:40:03,199
mix concretely, then Christ is an ontological confusion of two

1381
01:40:03,319 --> 01:40:08,800
diametrically opposed natures. And Nestorius is right in that. Okay,

1382
01:40:09,159 --> 01:40:12,399
he found that to be unacceptable, and we would agree

1383
01:40:12,399 --> 01:40:17,439
with Thestorius on that, but that was not Saint Cyril's position.

1384
01:40:19,760 --> 01:40:25,439
Another angle is if the two natures first mix in

1385
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:30,960
an abstract sense, and then from this abstract mixture follows

1386
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:35,680
a concrete Christic ontology, then Christ will also be an

1387
01:40:35,720 --> 01:40:42,920
ontological confusion of two diametrically opposed natures. And so we

1388
01:40:43,039 --> 01:40:47,800
would again agree with Nestorius on that point. But unfortunately

1389
01:40:48,279 --> 01:40:53,560
that's not the position of Saint Cyril. Okay, where we

1390
01:40:53,920 --> 01:40:57,199
disagree with Nestorius, and this is now where we separate

1391
01:40:57,239 --> 01:41:02,439
ourselves from Nestorianism, is this position that we take in

1392
01:41:02,520 --> 01:41:08,439
not allowing for dual subject Christology. So Nestorius's metaphysical paradigm

1393
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:12,840
does not allow the divine logos to be the subject

1394
01:41:13,119 --> 01:41:18,479
of both the divine and human natures and hypostetizing those

1395
01:41:18,560 --> 01:41:23,159
natures or existing in modes proper to divinity and humanity,

1396
01:41:23,840 --> 01:41:30,640
and so Nestorius's paradigm is contrary to the orthodox metaphysical paradigm. So,

1397
01:41:30,680 --> 01:41:35,560
according to Nestorius, the divine and human natures each must

1398
01:41:35,680 --> 01:41:40,520
have their own respective hypostatic ontologies, and as a result,

1399
01:41:40,760 --> 01:41:45,239
there is no way to mix the natures without introducing confusion.

1400
01:41:46,039 --> 01:41:49,880
But at the expense of not introducing confusion, you have

1401
01:41:50,159 --> 01:41:56,439
two subjects. Okay, So that metaphysical move made by both

1402
01:41:56,520 --> 01:42:02,399
the Orientals and Nestorians is Nestorians end up with this

1403
01:42:02,560 --> 01:42:09,039
dual subject christology. Orientals end up with an ontological mixture

1404
01:42:09,119 --> 01:42:15,600
and confusion. Now, since Saint Cyril adhere to a divine

1405
01:42:15,760 --> 01:42:22,239
only hippostatic ontology for Christ, Nestorius wrongly accused him of

1406
01:42:22,279 --> 01:42:26,279
being an apollinarian, especially given how Saint Cyril uses the

1407
01:42:26,319 --> 01:42:29,520
analogy of soul and body for the logos in fleshed.

1408
01:42:30,239 --> 01:42:33,880
So now this is a problem for the Orientals. I'm

1409
01:42:33,880 --> 01:42:36,720
sure they'll have something that they can babble on about

1410
01:42:36,760 --> 01:42:39,800
to give some kind of explanation, but to give an

1411
01:42:39,920 --> 01:42:48,479
actual analysis of how is it that Nestorius can accuse

1412
01:42:49,800 --> 01:42:58,359
Saint Cyril of apollinarianism? How is that related to a

1413
01:42:58,479 --> 01:43:06,520
divine only epostatic ontology for Christ. And so what is

1414
01:43:06,640 --> 01:43:13,720
basically the apollinarian heresy. It's basically saying that Christ, the

1415
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:19,199
divine mind, is what replaces the human mind, if you will,

1416
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:23,960
in Christ. So Christ does not have like a human will,

1417
01:43:24,479 --> 01:43:29,159
does not have a human It's basically like the body

1418
01:43:29,479 --> 01:43:32,680
of Christ is being piloted.

1419
01:43:33,039 --> 01:43:39,000
Speaker 1: It's the logos replacing the rational faculty in the human nature.

1420
01:43:39,399 --> 01:43:43,720
Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, yeah, and so it's in that sense it's

1421
01:43:43,960 --> 01:43:49,960
looking at this divine only hypostasis basically taking over this

1422
01:43:50,479 --> 01:43:54,199
human body, so that the human body isn't truly human

1423
01:43:54,359 --> 01:43:56,920
in the fullest sense of the word. So if the

1424
01:43:56,960 --> 01:43:59,920
stories is going to accuse Saint Cela being a pollenari,

1425
01:44:00,680 --> 01:44:06,199
he's conceiving Saint Cyril as basically trying to do something

1426
01:44:06,399 --> 01:44:10,760
like that with regards to the and fleshing of the

1427
01:44:10,920 --> 01:44:12,720
divine hypostasis.

1428
01:44:13,439 --> 01:44:17,920
Speaker 1: Yes, and this is also why Pollinarianism is important in

1429
01:44:17,960 --> 01:44:22,920
this dispute because of Pollinaris is guilty of doing a

1430
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:28,880
similar move to both Orientals and the Nestorians, and that

1431
01:44:29,039 --> 01:44:34,000
is to reduce a trait of or to identify a

1432
01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:38,039
trait of nature as identical to the subject or the person.

1433
01:44:38,119 --> 01:44:42,399
So Pollinarianism is a form of confusion, confusing nature and

1434
01:44:42,439 --> 01:44:47,800
person as well. It's simply identifying personhood with in this

1435
01:44:47,920 --> 01:44:52,880
case the logos, or in the case of humanity, the

1436
01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:57,600
humanity is summed up by a human person is identified

1437
01:44:57,640 --> 01:45:01,319
with the human soul. And and if there's one subject

1438
01:45:01,359 --> 01:45:04,520
in Christ, then he can't have a human soul because

1439
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:07,239
he would be a human person. That's a Pollinaris's reasoning.

1440
01:45:07,880 --> 01:45:13,520
So in order to maintain the strict divine subject position,

1441
01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:17,800
a Pollinaris thought that he would have to deny the

1442
01:45:17,920 --> 01:45:23,359
human soul because that's the defining characteristic of human hypostasis

1443
01:45:23,439 --> 01:45:27,399
or a human person. But that's false because the position

1444
01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:34,399
that's correct is to say that Christ possesses a human body, mind, soul,

1445
01:45:34,520 --> 01:45:37,600
and will, and yet he is not a human person

1446
01:45:37,920 --> 01:45:40,479
subject or human hypostasis.

1447
01:45:40,479 --> 01:45:48,800
Speaker 2: Correct. Correct the orthodox paradigm just say a few words here. Now,

1448
01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:53,279
the Oriental metaphysical paradigm, which as I've already said, is

1449
01:45:53,279 --> 01:45:57,039
just fundamentally just a different type of Mystorianism that ultimately

1450
01:45:57,079 --> 01:46:04,039
reduces to monophysitism, likewise does not follow Orthodoxy, just as

1451
01:46:04,039 --> 01:46:08,439
the Nestorian paradigm does. Not. But now the Orientals they

1452
01:46:08,479 --> 01:46:13,199
conceive of what they'll call a non self subsistent human

1453
01:46:13,279 --> 01:46:19,239
hypostasis in Christ, and they will use verbiage or an

1454
01:46:19,279 --> 01:46:24,199
explanation that they'll say, well, it's inseparable from the divine hypostasis.

1455
01:46:24,439 --> 01:46:31,560
It never exists apart from the divine hypostasis. And because

1456
01:46:31,600 --> 01:46:36,800
of this inseparability, the Orientals then believe that they don't

1457
01:46:37,039 --> 01:46:44,520
count multiple subjects in the sense ontologies in Christ. But

1458
01:46:44,680 --> 01:46:48,359
that's just contrary to the metaphysical paradigm of Saint Cyril.

1459
01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:53,239
This is them basically trying to count by division. And

1460
01:46:53,399 --> 01:47:01,520
so if the two hypostases are undivined or they're inseparable,

1461
01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:08,880
we don't increase the ontological count. And now, oh, wait

1462
01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:11,159
a minute, hold on a second. I think I'm gonna

1463
01:47:11,199 --> 01:47:14,199
see a logical problem with this egg and you're gonna

1464
01:47:14,199 --> 01:47:19,359
have to help me out, buddy. So you guys, as Orientals,

1465
01:47:19,359 --> 01:47:22,319
you say after the Union, you can't say two. You

1466
01:47:22,479 --> 01:47:31,680
have to say one because these hypostasis they're inseparable, right, Okay, Well,

1467
01:47:32,960 --> 01:47:37,399
are you gonna say three for trinity? Because wait a minute,

1468
01:47:37,479 --> 01:47:40,960
aren't the three divine persons inseparable?

1469
01:47:41,119 --> 01:47:43,880
Speaker 1: I was gonna say yeah, all any argument where you

1470
01:47:43,920 --> 01:47:47,760
reflexively put this on the trinity, always refuse the Oriental positions.

1471
01:47:48,079 --> 01:47:52,960
Speaker 2: No aigan, Please do a stream, Do a six hour stream,

1472
01:47:53,199 --> 01:47:55,159
do a twenty four hours, I don't care. Just do

1473
01:47:55,239 --> 01:47:59,319
a really long stream and explain to me the logic

1474
01:47:59,439 --> 01:48:04,680
how us Orientals you cannot say two after the union,

1475
01:48:05,119 --> 01:48:08,760
it has to be one. And your basis for saying

1476
01:48:08,960 --> 01:48:13,239
one is that there's inseparability of the hypostasis. So you're

1477
01:48:13,239 --> 01:48:17,560
gonna try now this discounting by division, and then you

1478
01:48:17,600 --> 01:48:21,560
can still say three for the trinity. But wait a minute,

1479
01:48:21,600 --> 01:48:25,840
the three persons are inseparable, so then wouldn't you just

1480
01:48:25,880 --> 01:48:30,119
say one? Oh but if you say one, maybe that's

1481
01:48:30,159 --> 01:48:35,359
a form of modalism or what would it be.

1482
01:48:35,760 --> 01:48:39,760
Speaker 1: Maybe it would just be you know, they will argue.

1483
01:48:40,359 --> 01:48:44,359
Some of them will say, well, okay, I'm willing to

1484
01:48:44,479 --> 01:48:50,000
sacrifice reflexivity between the incarnation and the Trinity. Are you

1485
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:53,600
sure you want to make that move, because who became

1486
01:48:53,640 --> 01:48:57,159
incarnate one of the holy trinities? So like it's just

1487
01:48:57,199 --> 01:49:00,680
a really stupid move to say, yeah, then will we

1488
01:49:00,760 --> 01:49:01,840
reject reflexivity?

1489
01:49:02,399 --> 01:49:05,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's it's funny how these Orientals they have so

1490
01:49:05,600 --> 01:49:08,279
much faith in again, and they're like debate egga and

1491
01:49:08,319 --> 01:49:12,920
do these things. It's like, you guys, you make pathetic arguments.

1492
01:49:13,159 --> 01:49:16,359
Let us do our series and we'll just you guys

1493
01:49:16,439 --> 01:49:20,319
keep doing your stuff. Whatever. It's a comic show. It's

1494
01:49:20,439 --> 01:49:24,720
just anyways. Please do address for me this whole notion

1495
01:49:24,880 --> 01:49:28,119
that you guys think you've solved the problem by counting

1496
01:49:28,159 --> 01:49:32,039
by division and inseparability, and then how that doesn't affect

1497
01:49:32,039 --> 01:49:37,000
the trinity. Yeah, go ahead, do that please. But basically,

1498
01:49:37,359 --> 01:49:43,600
so that oriental position, it is contrary to the metaphysical

1499
01:49:43,600 --> 01:49:47,920
paradigm of Saint Cyril. And so I quoted what Saint

1500
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:51,800
Cyril was writing in his third letter to Nestorius and

1501
01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:57,000
giving you an actual analysis. But if you remember from

1502
01:49:57,039 --> 01:50:00,920
the previous dreams, the letter to Emperor Theodosius, he's saying

1503
01:50:00,960 --> 01:50:03,520
the same thing. He's presenting the same paradigm. He says,

1504
01:50:03,880 --> 01:50:09,079
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

1505
01:50:09,880 --> 01:50:12,399
What does it mean for Jesus Christ to be the

1506
01:50:12,439 --> 01:50:17,399
same even when he the logos is conceived of in

1507
01:50:17,439 --> 01:50:21,800
his incarnate state, he is none other than the divine Creator.

1508
01:50:23,000 --> 01:50:30,359
So if you are now changing Christ's ontology to have

1509
01:50:30,520 --> 01:50:35,920
this non self subsistent human hypostasis that is inseparable from

1510
01:50:36,199 --> 01:50:44,199
the divine hypostasis. So was a human hypostasis the divine Creator.

1511
01:50:47,399 --> 01:50:50,039
That doesn't make sense to me. You're gonna have to

1512
01:50:50,279 --> 01:50:55,319
again really spend some time and explain to me how

1513
01:50:55,359 --> 01:51:00,520
a human hypostasis can be a the divine Creator. I

1514
01:51:00,560 --> 01:51:03,800
really need that one explained to me. And then you

1515
01:51:03,880 --> 01:51:08,159
look in the Old Testament Malachi three to six. For

1516
01:51:08,439 --> 01:51:13,560
I am the Lord, I do not change. I do

1517
01:51:13,720 --> 01:51:19,760
not change. What doesn't change I the subject. God is

1518
01:51:19,800 --> 01:51:25,159
talking about himself the subject I do not change. You

1519
01:51:25,199 --> 01:51:29,560
can replace I with the logos does not change. Christ

1520
01:51:29,720 --> 01:51:32,880
does not change. The sun does not change. What does

1521
01:51:32,920 --> 01:51:38,880
not change doesn't change the constitution the divine personhood. So

1522
01:51:39,279 --> 01:51:44,760
since Saint Cyril's metaphysical paradigm mandates that christ hypostatic ontology

1523
01:51:44,760 --> 01:51:49,520
be the same before and after the incarnation, we have

1524
01:51:49,600 --> 01:51:56,560
to conclude that christ hypostatic ontological count does not change.

1525
01:51:56,880 --> 01:51:59,960
That does not mean that you just invent this insect

1526
01:52:00,199 --> 01:52:04,960
parability notion with the non self subsistent human hypostasis and

1527
01:52:05,079 --> 01:52:09,239
just say because it's inseparable, we don't increase the ontological

1528
01:52:09,319 --> 01:52:14,359
count it's just like saying the Nestorians say, well, because

1529
01:52:14,640 --> 01:52:20,520
the human hypostasis in Christ is inseparable from the divine hypostasis,

1530
01:52:20,720 --> 01:52:25,720
there's just one person. You guys are leveling the criticism

1531
01:52:25,840 --> 01:52:30,119
against Nestorians for trying to do the exact same move

1532
01:52:30,279 --> 01:52:35,560
that you guys want to make. You want to allow

1533
01:52:35,600 --> 01:52:38,199
it for yourselves, but you want to deny it for

1534
01:52:38,279 --> 01:52:42,760
the Nestorians. Well, you're both making the same move, and

1535
01:52:42,800 --> 01:52:49,359
we're criticizing both of you for your nonsense. Okay, Christ's

1536
01:52:49,399 --> 01:52:52,960
divine hypostasis can take on another mode of existence, the

1537
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:59,720
an hypostatization, without increasing ontological count. Because he remains a

1538
01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:05,600
divine hypostasis, his ontology does not increase. And so both

1539
01:53:05,800 --> 01:53:10,600
of the Nestorians and the Orientals have the same underlying

1540
01:53:10,720 --> 01:53:18,479
nature person collapse metaphysical paradigm which Orthodoxy completely rejects. And

1541
01:53:18,479 --> 01:53:22,359
this is why we're saying that in a sense, Orientals

1542
01:53:22,560 --> 01:53:26,800
are just a different form of Nestorians. And it's ironic

1543
01:53:26,880 --> 01:53:34,039
that it's the Orientals who call us Nestorians. So, according

1544
01:53:34,119 --> 01:53:39,279
to scripture, God does not change. Divine actions do not

1545
01:53:39,520 --> 01:53:43,600
change God. God can create the world and yet not

1546
01:53:43,840 --> 01:53:48,239
undergo any change. Think of how actions that you do

1547
01:53:48,319 --> 01:53:51,319
as a human, like walking, raising your arm, moving your head,

1548
01:53:51,600 --> 01:53:56,920
you don't change your hypostatic constitution. And so God can

1549
01:53:57,119 --> 01:54:02,439
act within creation, form divine activities just the way you

1550
01:54:02,560 --> 01:54:07,640
perform human activities, and that does not constitute a change.

1551
01:54:07,720 --> 01:54:12,000
The substantive identity of who you are, who God is,

1552
01:54:12,359 --> 01:54:16,920
does not change. And nothing can happen to Christ that

1553
01:54:17,079 --> 01:54:23,199
changes his hypostatic ontology who Christ is, though he takes

1554
01:54:23,279 --> 01:54:28,760
on an additional human mode of being. So Christ incarnates

1555
01:54:28,880 --> 01:54:31,720
or if you want to use another the way that

1556
01:54:31,760 --> 01:54:35,640
Saint Cyril speaks in fleshes in such a way that

1557
01:54:35,680 --> 01:54:40,119
he does not undergo any change in his hypostatic ontology,

1558
01:54:40,600 --> 01:54:44,680
because what does Saint Cyril tell us his paradigm is

1559
01:54:45,000 --> 01:54:49,479
he's saying that Christ after he incarnates, is what he

1560
01:54:49,720 --> 01:54:54,560
was before. So it means the in fleshing occurs in

1561
01:54:54,640 --> 01:54:58,279
a way that he does not change. And what is

1562
01:54:58,319 --> 01:55:03,079
he not changing in in his hypostatic ontology, So a

1563
01:55:03,199 --> 01:55:07,720
human hypostasis is not necessitated in order for Christ to

1564
01:55:07,800 --> 01:55:13,319
in flesh his divine hypostasis. That is Saint Cyril's paradigm.

1565
01:55:15,159 --> 01:55:18,560
And now this is the last slide, and it's just basically,

1566
01:55:19,119 --> 01:55:22,880
what are some of the things or that we consider

1567
01:55:22,920 --> 01:55:27,399
as like fundamentals when we're building up a paradigm, how

1568
01:55:27,439 --> 01:55:32,279
we are constructing the Orthodox paradigm, how we're looking at

1569
01:55:32,279 --> 01:55:36,279
the fathers and how we're they're treating the theology and

1570
01:55:36,720 --> 01:55:39,840
what is their paradigm. So we're looking at making a

1571
01:55:40,039 --> 01:55:46,199
nature person distinction. So when you're reading, for example, Saint Cyril,

1572
01:55:46,319 --> 01:55:51,560
you need to understand that there is this nature person distinction.

1573
01:55:52,000 --> 01:55:55,840
There's not a being, there's no collapse between the two.

1574
01:55:56,119 --> 01:55:59,720
The person isn't identified with the nature. The person is

1575
01:55:59,760 --> 01:56:04,000
not identified with the idioms. And that's where we have

1576
01:56:04,119 --> 01:56:08,880
like the natural versus hipostatic properties. There are idioms or

1577
01:56:08,920 --> 01:56:12,359
properties that are proper to nature and that are proper

1578
01:56:12,399 --> 01:56:16,279
to hypostasis. So for example, and we see this kind

1579
01:56:16,319 --> 01:56:20,720
of really get fleshed out by Saint Maximus, where you

1580
01:56:20,760 --> 01:56:24,600
will have things like is will a proper? Is that

1581
01:56:24,680 --> 01:56:31,479
a property of nature? Or because if now your natural

1582
01:56:31,479 --> 01:56:37,520
and hypostatic properties become confused or become synonymous, so then

1583
01:56:37,840 --> 01:56:42,600
will becomes a property of the person. That is actually

1584
01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:46,159
the case for the Orientals. Will becomes a property of

1585
01:56:46,159 --> 01:56:50,319
the person. So now you have three distinct persons in

1586
01:56:50,359 --> 01:56:54,079
the godhead, so we will we wills.

1587
01:56:54,399 --> 01:56:56,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let me answer this super chat from Solomon

1588
01:56:56,880 --> 01:56:59,560
because it relates to that he says for five dollars

1589
01:57:00,399 --> 01:57:02,800
in the debate with Daniel Pikachu, he brought up different

1590
01:57:02,880 --> 01:57:06,159
minds as an argument during the Islam Christianity debate on

1591
01:57:06,279 --> 01:57:08,399
fresh and fit. What is your response to that? It's

1592
01:57:08,439 --> 01:57:10,920
exactly what Kai is getting at right here, which is

1593
01:57:10,960 --> 01:57:15,079
that in modern philosophy or in modernity, we tend to

1594
01:57:15,079 --> 01:57:19,520
think of a person as a body and a soul,

1595
01:57:20,199 --> 01:57:24,920
just an individual. But in Patristic theology based on the trinity,

1596
01:57:25,239 --> 01:57:28,920
again there's a distinction between nature and person. That same

1597
01:57:28,960 --> 01:57:33,199
distinction between nature and person is reflected not just into Christology,

1598
01:57:33,640 --> 01:57:37,039
but also in terms of human anthropology. That's how we

1599
01:57:37,119 --> 01:57:40,880
say that Christ is fully human body, mind, soul, will,

1600
01:57:41,079 --> 01:57:43,399
but not a human subject and not a human person.

1601
01:57:43,479 --> 01:57:47,039
So he assumed a human nature, not a human person.

1602
01:57:47,159 --> 01:57:49,560
That's the essence of the council of ephesis in St.

1603
01:57:49,600 --> 01:57:53,279
Cyril's teaching. Thus, he's not a dual subject, He's a

1604
01:57:53,319 --> 01:57:56,720
single divine subject. So the answer is, although it sounds

1605
01:57:56,760 --> 01:58:00,680
a little counterintuitive given the way that we think modernity.

1606
01:58:01,479 --> 01:58:06,159
Mind in the Trinity is a property of nature, and

1607
01:58:06,239 --> 01:58:09,840
so there's one mind in God, but it's had in

1608
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:14,520
the mode of three persons. So the Father uniquely instantiates

1609
01:58:14,560 --> 01:58:17,600
the divine mind, the Son uniquely instantiates the divine mind,

1610
01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:21,439
the Spirit uniquely instantiates the divine mind. Yet there is

1611
01:58:21,520 --> 01:58:26,159
not three minds. There is one mind uniquely instantiated in

1612
01:58:26,199 --> 01:58:30,239
each hypostasis. So mind is a property of nature, and

1613
01:58:30,239 --> 01:58:32,319
hence one mind in God, one will in God. When

1614
01:58:32,439 --> 01:58:37,199
essence in God, mind is not a personal or hypostatic property,

1615
01:58:37,560 --> 01:58:39,920
and it's the same in Christology. That's why in Christ

1616
01:58:39,920 --> 01:58:43,960
Incarnate there's two minds, human mind, divine mind, two wills,

1617
01:58:44,079 --> 01:58:47,920
human will, divine will, two energies, human will, divine energy.

1618
01:58:48,039 --> 01:58:50,680
Why because of two natures.

1619
01:58:50,319 --> 01:58:54,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, But if you make the metaphysical move that Nestorians

1620
01:58:54,199 --> 01:58:59,039
and Orientals make and always insist that the nature is

1621
01:58:59,560 --> 01:59:04,640
through them hypostasis, the concrete existence, it necessitates that nature

1622
01:59:04,680 --> 01:59:12,199
person collapse necessitates that your will is a property of

1623
01:59:12,239 --> 01:59:15,520
the hypostasis. And there's no way you can get around this,

1624
01:59:15,920 --> 01:59:20,239
having three wills in the divine mind, without three wills

1625
01:59:20,239 --> 01:59:24,000
in the Godhead, without changing your paradigm. So let the

1626
01:59:24,079 --> 01:59:27,560
Orientals flesh that out. Let them answer that question. But

1627
01:59:27,680 --> 01:59:29,880
we will get into that when we do part five

1628
01:59:29,960 --> 01:59:32,760
and we start looking at Severus, when we start looking

1629
01:59:32,760 --> 01:59:37,960
at John Philipponus and how all this stuff plays out,

1630
01:59:38,520 --> 01:59:41,560
then you have the essence energies distinction. And so that's

1631
01:59:41,560 --> 01:59:46,600
a paradigm fundamental. It basically allows us to discuss how

1632
01:59:46,640 --> 01:59:51,039
does God interact with the world. How can God's essence

1633
01:59:51,079 --> 01:59:54,439
be above being or be inaccessible to us, yet we

1634
01:59:54,479 --> 01:59:58,760
can know God, we can interact with God. This is

1635
01:59:58,880 --> 02:00:04,840
very important for asthology. How does Christ interact with his creation?

1636
02:00:05,000 --> 02:00:09,560
It's very relevant to the Theophanes. And I think Sam did

1637
02:00:09,640 --> 02:00:13,000
something stupid in terms of critiquing the energies and not

1638
02:00:13,199 --> 02:00:18,000
realizing how they are fundamental to the Theophanes. H.

1639
02:00:18,119 --> 02:00:20,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And I even said that in one of

1640
02:00:20,479 --> 02:00:21,199
those streams.

1641
02:00:21,560 --> 02:00:27,359
Speaker 2: Yeah. Another one is looking at universals versus particulars. So

1642
02:00:28,119 --> 02:00:32,720
nature's in a universal sense versus particular natures or particular hypostasis.

1643
02:00:33,239 --> 02:00:37,159
What constitutes a universal is a universal just simply the

1644
02:00:37,279 --> 02:00:43,119
some collection of the instantiations. So it just kind of

1645
02:00:43,159 --> 02:00:47,159
goes into all of that. The different types of views

1646
02:00:47,199 --> 02:00:51,000
you can have, and what is your paradigm consisting of?

1647
02:00:51,399 --> 02:00:54,079
And then we have monarchy of the Father, and I

1648
02:00:54,119 --> 02:00:57,880
think that is really important. That's really important paradigm. It

1649
02:00:58,000 --> 02:01:02,720
is very unique. Orthodoxy is the only one that looks

1650
02:01:02,760 --> 02:01:07,279
at monarchy of the father or at least incorporates it

1651
02:01:07,399 --> 02:01:11,039
in its purest form.

1652
02:01:11,600 --> 02:01:16,079
Speaker 1: Now I'm not doubting you on this, but I've never

1653
02:01:16,119 --> 02:01:20,560
actually known or look, what's the Oriental position on that?

1654
02:01:20,680 --> 02:01:23,079
Do they differ? How does that relate to this issue?

1655
02:01:23,359 --> 02:01:28,039
Speaker 2: So this is okay. So this is the problem with

1656
02:01:28,159 --> 02:01:35,560
regards to especially Nestorians in particular, and the the Orientals

1657
02:01:35,600 --> 02:01:41,239
would fall into a different, slightly different branch just because

1658
02:01:41,640 --> 02:01:47,359
the Nestorians they will take the threefold ontology of the

1659
02:01:47,479 --> 02:01:51,000
nature person or sorry, the nature hypostasis person, if you will,

1660
02:01:52,000 --> 02:01:56,520
whereas the Orientals don't really take that approach. The Nestorians

1661
02:01:56,960 --> 02:02:00,239
they jeopardize monarchy of the Father because of the way

1662
02:02:00,680 --> 02:02:05,159
they treat the prosopone as or the parsupa as a

1663
02:02:05,199 --> 02:02:10,000
distinct ontology. And so if that's a distinct ontology that

1664
02:02:10,359 --> 02:02:14,800
is giftable by the divine logos to the human Jesus,

1665
02:02:15,279 --> 02:02:19,239
it makes the parsupa a giftable property that can be

1666
02:02:19,359 --> 02:02:25,319
interchanged between a hippostatic substrate or the knuma. And so

1667
02:02:25,439 --> 02:02:28,600
then what ends up happening here is is that if

1668
02:02:28,640 --> 02:02:34,159
it's a shaable property, you lose the proper identification of

1669
02:02:34,199 --> 02:02:39,920
the Father in the Godhead because you can switch because.

1670
02:02:39,720 --> 02:02:42,960
Speaker 1: You're just there's not a specific hypostetic property for father,

1671
02:02:43,119 --> 02:02:44,479
They're just interchangeable.

1672
02:02:45,039 --> 02:02:48,920
Speaker 2: Well, that's the problem that the historians get into, and

1673
02:02:49,039 --> 02:02:52,760
the Bye writes about this in his Book of Union.

1674
02:02:53,000 --> 02:02:59,520
He is very explicit that the the property the what

1675
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:03,720
we call the keepostatic properties or like the property of paternity,

1676
02:03:03,840 --> 02:03:08,000
the property of filiation, and the property of spiration that

1677
02:03:08,159 --> 02:03:13,159
distinguishes father, son, and Holy Spirit, those are interchangeable properties,

1678
02:03:13,359 --> 02:03:17,960
so that they can be exchanged between the substrates, if

1679
02:03:18,000 --> 02:03:22,239
you will, or those concretizations the numa. They can be exchanged.

1680
02:03:22,439 --> 02:03:25,920
And so then that what is really existing as a

1681
02:03:26,000 --> 02:03:31,399
concrete is confused of who really is the Father, who

1682
02:03:31,439 --> 02:03:33,359
really is the son, who is the Holy Spirit?

1683
02:03:33,600 --> 02:03:36,520
Speaker 1: Well that's ironic because that's the similar move that Roman

1684
02:03:36,560 --> 02:03:40,800
Catholics make when they make relations of opposition. What because

1685
02:03:40,840 --> 02:03:44,520
relations of opposition are also interchangeable, and it would relativize

1686
02:03:44,560 --> 02:03:47,159
the subjects in the triad which is exactly what you're saying.

1687
02:03:47,399 --> 02:03:49,880
The bay By text says right exactly.

1688
02:03:50,119 --> 02:03:52,680
Speaker 2: Now. The thing here is the way the historians will

1689
02:03:52,760 --> 02:03:56,159
try to counter this, and we'll look at the synods

1690
02:03:56,159 --> 02:03:58,359
and we'll look at all of that. In the later streams,

1691
02:03:58,560 --> 02:04:02,199
they will try to counter it by saying, well, the

1692
02:04:02,239 --> 02:04:06,520
synods of the Church of the East officially adopted Babbeye's Christology,

1693
02:04:06,840 --> 02:04:13,520
but they did not adopt his Triadology. So Babbei went

1694
02:04:13,720 --> 02:04:17,600
the opposite way. He started with his Christology and worked

1695
02:04:17,600 --> 02:04:20,920
his way kind of towards the triadology, and that's the

1696
02:04:21,039 --> 02:04:23,640
logical extension of it, and that's how we got into that.

1697
02:04:24,039 --> 02:04:26,880
But then they will do what the Orientals do, where

1698
02:04:26,920 --> 02:04:29,600
it's like, well we'll allow this for the Christology, but

1699
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:33,279
we'll disallow it for the Triadology, and the Church of

1700
02:04:33,279 --> 02:04:37,000
These will say, well, we recognize what we're doing chrystologically,

1701
02:04:37,439 --> 02:04:43,000
but we're going to actually take the prosopic properties that

1702
02:04:43,039 --> 02:04:47,159
Babbie was talking about that are interchangeable, and we'll just

1703
02:04:47,199 --> 02:04:50,640
call them klumic properties. So they're basically shifting it to

1704
02:04:50,720 --> 02:04:54,600
be hypostatic properties the way we would do in our scheme.

1705
02:04:54,800 --> 02:04:58,159
So they tried. They saw the problem that they would

1706
02:04:58,159 --> 02:05:00,359
have with monarchy of the Father, and they try to

1707
02:05:00,399 --> 02:05:05,640
make a solution of it by changing their triadology to

1708
02:05:05,880 --> 02:05:08,920
not match their christology.

1709
02:05:09,079 --> 02:05:16,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got, you know. And another mistake that people

1710
02:05:16,279 --> 02:05:21,640
are not understanding that Aagan doesn't get. When he called

1711
02:05:21,640 --> 02:05:24,359
in to talk about hipostatized, he thought that the term

1712
02:05:24,479 --> 02:05:28,159
means that Maximus teaches that there was a substantial change

1713
02:05:28,359 --> 02:05:32,640
in the logos when he became a composite hypostasis. Maximus

1714
02:05:32,680 --> 02:05:34,920
is the one that says, quote, he underwent no change.

1715
02:05:35,079 --> 02:05:37,920
So it's not a substantial change. First of all, in

1716
02:05:37,960 --> 02:05:41,199
the theology of Maximus, it's not what the word unhipostitized means.

1717
02:05:41,199 --> 02:05:43,079
It doesn't mean he took the nature in himself to

1718
02:05:43,199 --> 02:05:47,760
change it. He underwent no change, but he did in

1719
02:05:47,800 --> 02:05:50,239
a sense change and that he added a nature. But

1720
02:05:50,279 --> 02:05:53,279
that's not a substantial change, right, So he didn't cease

1721
02:05:53,359 --> 02:05:57,039
to be the eternal son of God. He simply added

1722
02:05:57,079 --> 02:06:00,560
a human nature to the divine nature that he already possessed,

1723
02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:04,359
and ideified that human nature to raise it so that

1724
02:06:04,359 --> 02:06:07,000
we could be deified, as the Capadocians say, whatever he

1725
02:06:07,079 --> 02:06:10,800
didn't assume is not healed. So that simple principle right

1726
02:06:10,840 --> 02:06:15,680
there refutes the the a Pollinarian position because if he

1727
02:06:15,680 --> 02:06:18,600
didn't become a rational soul, then he didn't heal our

1728
02:06:18,600 --> 02:06:21,720
soul or our reason. So likewise he had to have

1729
02:06:21,840 --> 02:06:25,399
full humanity human nature without being a human subject or person.

1730
02:06:25,439 --> 02:06:29,319
And that's why only orthodoxeology, I think, really maintains that

1731
02:06:29,920 --> 02:06:34,840
balance there. Now on top of that too, well, go ahead,

1732
02:06:34,880 --> 02:06:35,680
go ahead, Kai.

1733
02:06:35,960 --> 02:06:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just gonna say, I didn't put up

1734
02:06:38,039 --> 02:06:40,680
this part in the quotations, but it's interesting in the

1735
02:06:40,720 --> 02:06:43,279
third letter that sin Cerel writes two in the stories,

1736
02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:47,760
there is actually one part where he's talking to Nestorius

1737
02:06:48,439 --> 02:06:52,039
and he's just basically saying how Christ does not morph

1738
02:06:52,239 --> 02:06:57,479
into a human form, like he doesn't undergo like this theomorphism.

1739
02:06:58,119 --> 02:07:01,199
And at first, you, like, if you're an attentive reader,

1740
02:07:01,760 --> 02:07:05,199
you would ask yourself, why in the world would he

1741
02:07:05,319 --> 02:07:10,199
be talking to Nestorius about that, because Nestorius nowhere does

1742
02:07:10,239 --> 02:07:15,039
he conceive of theomorphism. Nowhere does he say that Christ

1743
02:07:15,720 --> 02:07:20,760
changes into becoming a human, from going from divine into human.

1744
02:07:21,079 --> 02:07:24,000
So why is Saint Cyril, like, why is he talking

1745
02:07:24,079 --> 02:07:28,680
about this? Because if anything, Nestorius is like believes that

1746
02:07:28,960 --> 02:07:32,319
quite opposite, the logo stays up in heaven, does not

1747
02:07:32,520 --> 02:07:36,760
actually incarnate, does not come into any kind of interaction

1748
02:07:36,960 --> 02:07:40,920
with humanity apart from the prosopic union. So where does

1749
02:07:40,920 --> 02:07:43,880
this change come from? You will then understand this whole

1750
02:07:43,920 --> 02:07:49,159
context of Saint Cyril talking about change in an ontological

1751
02:07:49,199 --> 02:07:54,520
substantive way. So he's using that as an explanation and

1752
02:07:54,560 --> 02:07:56,640
I should have probably put that into the slides now

1753
02:07:56,680 --> 02:07:59,520
that I'm talking about it is how he's giving this

1754
02:07:59,560 --> 02:08:03,199
as an ex ample of an ontological change in the

1755
02:08:03,199 --> 02:08:06,880
sun in going from divine to human, and that's what

1756
02:08:06,960 --> 02:08:11,239
he's negating. And so he's negating any kind of conceptual

1757
02:08:11,439 --> 02:08:15,079
substantive change that occurs in Christ. And so you just

1758
02:08:15,079 --> 02:08:20,000
go the other way around. You're not going to absorb

1759
02:08:20,199 --> 02:08:24,279
some kind of human hypostatic ontology into the divine Christ

1760
02:08:24,319 --> 02:08:26,319
is not changing into that.

1761
02:08:29,600 --> 02:08:34,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a failure to distinguish between a substantial change

1762
02:08:34,800 --> 02:08:38,000
in any change at all, And those are two different things.

1763
02:08:38,119 --> 02:08:41,760
When Maximus says no change, that's not a Nestorian position

1764
02:08:41,880 --> 02:08:45,399
that there was no real hypostetic union. It means that

1765
02:08:45,399 --> 02:08:50,479
the Divinity didn't undergo a change to no longer be divinity.

1766
02:08:50,680 --> 02:08:53,760
And only with the energy's doctrine can you maintain the

1767
02:08:53,800 --> 02:08:56,399
position that he underwent no change, but also that he

1768
02:08:56,439 --> 02:09:00,239
really did deify the humanity. So that's how both things

1769
02:09:00,279 --> 02:09:03,000
are true, instead of thinking in these just low tier

1770
02:09:03,119 --> 02:09:06,560
either ores, which these people seem to be incapable of

1771
02:09:06,800 --> 02:09:09,600
thinking outside of low tier other ores. And also it's

1772
02:09:09,640 --> 02:09:12,439
not just a nature person distinction that's necessary for trinitary

1773
02:09:12,560 --> 02:09:15,640
theology and for Christology, you also have to have a

1774
02:09:15,640 --> 02:09:20,640
theology of mode, and in hypostatize refers to mode. Hypostasis

1775
02:09:20,760 --> 02:09:24,359
is a statement about concretized nature or the person or

1776
02:09:24,399 --> 02:09:27,439
the subject that has the nature. That's the nature person distinction,

1777
02:09:28,359 --> 02:09:32,800
and in hypostatize refers to this other layer or level

1778
02:09:32,920 --> 02:09:37,000
of philosophy cult mode that's in metaphysical distinction for the

1779
02:09:37,039 --> 02:09:40,760
way a thing exists or how a thing exists. For example,

1780
02:09:41,359 --> 02:09:45,159
in the Trinity, the divine nature exists in the mode

1781
02:09:45,239 --> 02:09:48,399
of the three persons that possess it. That divine nature

1782
02:09:48,439 --> 02:09:51,760
is in hypostatic it exists in the Father of the

1783
02:09:51,800 --> 02:09:54,680
Son and Holy Spirit. It doesn't exist outside of it

1784
02:09:54,720 --> 02:09:58,800
in some other way, in some other mode. It only

1785
02:09:58,840 --> 02:10:03,720
exists in that way in that mode. Likewise, in the incarnation,

1786
02:10:04,000 --> 02:10:07,479
the divine nature exists in the mode of the son

1787
02:10:07,560 --> 02:10:12,359
of God, who assumes human nature, which is in hypostatized,

1788
02:10:12,520 --> 02:10:17,760
exists in the mode of the logos that assumed it. Yep, no, exactly.

1789
02:10:17,840 --> 02:10:19,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a confusion there.

1790
02:10:20,439 --> 02:10:24,720
Speaker 1: They will confuse the will being a property or being

1791
02:10:24,800 --> 02:10:27,279
grounded in nature. And so if we say that will

1792
02:10:27,439 --> 02:10:33,079
is a property of essence or nature, they confuse that

1793
02:10:33,159 --> 02:10:36,199
with the mode of willing, which is personal hypostatic.

1794
02:10:36,359 --> 02:10:41,279
Speaker 2: Well, basically, what agan, he's his mistake that he makes.

1795
02:10:41,279 --> 02:10:46,439
He conflates tropos with properties. Okay, And by his logic,

1796
02:10:46,600 --> 02:10:49,399
God has to change every single time that he performs

1797
02:10:49,399 --> 02:10:53,279
a divine act. So if God creates the world, then

1798
02:10:53,720 --> 02:10:59,840
he's changing, while God doesn't change. Activity does not alter substantivity.

1799
02:11:00,239 --> 02:11:00,640
Speaker 1: Okay.

1800
02:11:01,000 --> 02:11:04,840
Speaker 2: It's like if you take his logic to its natural conclusion,

1801
02:11:05,640 --> 02:11:08,640
he's the historian, because then he would require the two

1802
02:11:08,720 --> 02:11:13,439
hypostatius to perform different activities in order to not introduce

1803
02:11:13,560 --> 02:11:16,920
change into the divinity. Like, it just doesn't It doesn't

1804
02:11:16,960 --> 02:11:21,000
make sense. His position is very logical, and he does

1805
02:11:21,039 --> 02:11:24,880
not understand our paradigm, and he's trying to critique our

1806
02:11:24,880 --> 02:11:29,840
paradigm and his own paradigm is just flawed. As we're

1807
02:11:29,880 --> 02:11:33,800
as we're demonstrating, we're only just scratching the surface. Now.

1808
02:11:33,880 --> 02:11:36,920
The other thing that's really funny is Jay, you posted

1809
02:11:37,600 --> 02:11:40,439
that we're going to be doing this live, and he

1810
02:11:40,479 --> 02:11:42,479
immediately has already been Yeah.

1811
02:11:42,319 --> 02:11:44,079
Speaker 1: It's in like a few hours. He already put up

1812
02:11:44,119 --> 02:11:44,800
his page.

1813
02:11:45,439 --> 02:11:47,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, he put up his page that he's going to

1814
02:11:47,520 --> 02:11:50,079
be doing a refutation stream. It's like, we haven't even

1815
02:11:50,239 --> 02:11:53,640
done our stream and he's gonna go and do this

1816
02:11:53,880 --> 02:11:54,920
refutation stream.

1817
02:11:54,960 --> 02:11:57,039
Speaker 1: Well, that's why I'm not really interested in the interacting

1818
02:11:57,119 --> 02:11:58,600
is that when he came on, he just wanted to

1819
02:11:58,640 --> 02:12:00,960
clip to say that he had owned me for his channel.

1820
02:12:01,119 --> 02:12:05,079
And so why would I debate somebody who clearly isn't

1821
02:12:05,119 --> 02:12:07,840
interested in actually getting at the truth but just sort

1822
02:12:07,840 --> 02:12:08,720
of clip forming.

1823
02:12:09,520 --> 02:12:15,000
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, I mean once to what grow his channel

1824
02:12:14,239 --> 02:12:18,159
at your expense kind of thing. But I mean, it's

1825
02:12:18,560 --> 02:12:24,159
it's pretty pathetic that the Oriental community pushes him as

1826
02:12:24,199 --> 02:12:27,560
if he's this champion for them. I mean, if he's

1827
02:12:27,600 --> 02:12:33,479
your champion, like you guys had to wait for somebody

1828
02:12:33,479 --> 02:12:36,319
who's like a high school kid who's only been like

1829
02:12:36,600 --> 02:12:38,840
part of your community for a couple of years or something.

1830
02:12:38,920 --> 02:12:41,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is the same we went We went

1831
02:12:41,720 --> 02:12:44,159
through all of this in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen at

1832
02:12:44,199 --> 02:12:47,920
Severn Zelot and David and Severn Zelut. It's exact same

1833
02:12:48,520 --> 02:12:52,439
play repeating itself, and in five years it'll be some

1834
02:12:52,560 --> 02:12:53,920
other dude who's in the next one.

1835
02:12:54,520 --> 02:12:59,000
Speaker 2: Yep, exactly, So I mean I already gave eggin the homework.

1836
02:12:59,199 --> 02:13:02,199
Please make your streams answering the questions that I've asked

1837
02:13:02,239 --> 02:13:07,479
you show, show your logic, show your metaphysics, show your paradigm,

1838
02:13:07,840 --> 02:13:10,880
and' let's compare the paradigms. Let's see what kind of

1839
02:13:11,039 --> 02:13:16,000
questions you can you can answer, give some meaningful answers

1840
02:13:16,039 --> 02:13:20,319
to your worldview, and let us do our series. Okay,

1841
02:13:20,439 --> 02:13:23,880
you guys who are saying debate aigan, debate again, debate aigen,

1842
02:13:24,399 --> 02:13:28,079
you're going to see that by the time we're finished

1843
02:13:28,159 --> 02:13:33,680
this stream, and if you consume their kind of like

1844
02:13:33,840 --> 02:13:37,840
counter refutations or whatever, there's nothing of substance to them.

1845
02:13:38,159 --> 02:13:43,119
It's all just going to collapse. Okay, you don't scare

1846
02:13:43,199 --> 02:13:48,760
us one bit. We're not running. We will take our

1847
02:13:48,920 --> 02:13:52,800
time to do this stuff, and we're going to address

1848
02:13:52,800 --> 02:13:56,439
this stuff. Okay, we don't play your like Muslim tier games.

1849
02:13:56,439 --> 02:13:59,359
Oh come debate me, debate me, debate me. I mean,

1850
02:14:00,159 --> 02:14:02,840
if you only put in the amount of effort at

1851
02:14:02,880 --> 02:14:07,279
critiquing us that you critique the Muslims, if you only

1852
02:14:07,319 --> 02:14:10,239
put that much effort into critiquing the Muslims and Islam,

1853
02:14:10,359 --> 02:14:12,920
maybe you wouldn't have been Vimmy's for so long and

1854
02:14:12,960 --> 02:14:18,840
love your limitude under Islamic rule and whatnot. So I

1855
02:14:18,880 --> 02:14:21,960
mean whatever, just keep watching our streams. I hope this

1856
02:14:22,000 --> 02:14:25,880
is a benefit to the Orthodox. We're doing this more

1857
02:14:25,920 --> 02:14:31,000
to educate Orthodox people. Orthodox educate the inquirers to just

1858
02:14:31,079 --> 02:14:35,960
basically appreciate better what the Orthodox position is, how we

1859
02:14:36,119 --> 02:14:41,279
present a coherent metaphysical paradigm worldview. We can give you

1860
02:14:41,680 --> 02:14:47,399
the answers to a wider range of questions, theological questions,

1861
02:14:48,199 --> 02:14:52,439
and that you can find meaning within Orthodoxy and why

1862
02:14:52,760 --> 02:14:54,520
you want to be a Christian.

1863
02:14:56,720 --> 02:14:58,920
Speaker 1: All right, guys, remember the show sponsor is chalk dot

1864
02:14:58,960 --> 02:15:02,000
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1865
02:15:02,000 --> 02:15:06,520
get in the gym, get fit, get into a regular routine.

1866
02:15:06,640 --> 02:15:11,800
I recommend supplementing with chalk dot com. We have cold

1867
02:15:11,880 --> 02:15:15,800
quest saying for five dollars. The Whatever podcast, Dream Debate

1868
02:15:16,359 --> 02:15:19,239
one on three not so ard I a Mormon and

1869
02:15:19,359 --> 02:15:24,079
Voice of Reason sounds like a nightmare. Niz mon props

1870
02:15:24,279 --> 02:15:28,000
one two, three, one dollar lego Joseph Smith wrongful rage

1871
02:15:28,000 --> 02:15:31,880
ten dollars or we already read. Excuse me, mister, mister

1872
02:15:31,960 --> 02:15:34,119
ten dollars. I'm currently struggling with evolution. Do you have

1873
02:15:34,159 --> 02:15:37,479
any advice or sources? Genesis Creation Early Man is back

1874
02:15:37,560 --> 02:15:40,439
in print, so people can get access to that now

1875
02:15:40,560 --> 02:15:44,720
very easily. Glitchy rhythm five dollars, what's up man, Jordan

1876
02:15:44,760 --> 02:15:46,800
Ens since five bucks? How is it the case that

1877
02:15:46,840 --> 02:15:50,800
the antio Kines understood Saint Cyrril's paradigm better than his

1878
02:15:50,880 --> 02:15:55,520
own students the Alexandrians. Calceadon was twenty years after Ephesis.

1879
02:15:55,560 --> 02:15:58,159
It seems like the guys who lost at Ephesus one

1880
02:15:58,239 --> 02:16:01,960
at Chalcedon. I don't know if I would say that

1881
02:16:02,000 --> 02:16:07,680
they understood it better. Because the Fifth Council reaffirms the

1882
02:16:07,760 --> 02:16:13,039
Kuillion reading of Calcledon and rejects the Antioch Keen interpretation

1883
02:16:13,279 --> 02:16:17,000
of hypostasis as product glitchy rhythm five dollars. What's the

1884
02:16:17,000 --> 02:16:21,439
distinction between something natural and something created? Well, the word

1885
02:16:21,560 --> 02:16:23,600
natural is more of a general term. That could mean

1886
02:16:23,640 --> 02:16:26,079
the divine nature or it could mean a created nature,

1887
02:16:26,359 --> 02:16:30,119
so I would say it that way. Kai is also

1888
02:16:30,159 --> 02:16:33,319
the proprietor of Orthodox Shahata. You guys can definitely follow

1889
02:16:33,360 --> 02:16:37,239
him over at Orthodox Shaada. I will have him linked afterwards.

1890
02:16:37,239 --> 02:16:40,440
You can't tag people in live streams and the titles

1891
02:16:40,440 --> 02:16:43,680
for whatever reason, but afterwards I will tag him. But

1892
02:16:43,760 --> 02:16:47,000
you can follow him at Orthodox Shata. And if you're

1893
02:16:47,079 --> 02:16:49,520
watching this series, the next one, I don't know when

1894
02:16:49,520 --> 02:16:52,040
it will be, but what is on the table for

1895
02:16:52,280 --> 02:16:54,639
part three?

1896
02:16:55,159 --> 02:16:57,680
Speaker 2: So we're still in part two. The second stream of

1897
02:16:57,719 --> 02:17:00,200
part two, we're going to go into composite heepostats He's

1898
02:17:00,239 --> 02:17:01,959
We're gonna look at the language, We're gonna look at

1899
02:17:01,959 --> 02:17:07,159
the terminology, We're gonna look at what exactly means. We're

1900
02:17:07,159 --> 02:17:10,239
gonna look at Saint Maximus, We're gonna look at more

1901
02:17:10,280 --> 02:17:14,280
of Saint Cyril, and just really understand that language. Because

1902
02:17:14,399 --> 02:17:20,079
I even within the Orthodox community, there's a lot of

1903
02:17:20,120 --> 02:17:25,360
confusion going around that people are thinking composity pistasis means

1904
02:17:25,799 --> 02:17:29,760
a composition of two hypostases coming together.

1905
02:17:29,639 --> 02:17:34,440
Speaker 1: And producing something quid or I mean exactly.

1906
02:17:35,959 --> 02:17:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So we'll spend some time with that. David,

1907
02:17:39,799 --> 02:17:42,559
he wrote a good article. I don't think it was public,

1908
02:17:42,719 --> 02:17:46,399
but he wrote a good article of many different ways

1909
02:17:46,440 --> 02:17:50,280
of how to understand postases, like if you understand it

1910
02:17:50,280 --> 02:17:53,239
this way, this is what it means if you're positing

1911
02:17:53,319 --> 02:17:55,319
it this way. So we're gonna go through all of that,

1912
02:17:55,360 --> 02:17:58,159
and I really hope for him to be part of

1913
02:17:58,200 --> 02:18:01,879
that stream as well, because that's I'm lifting a lot

1914
02:18:01,879 --> 02:18:04,799
of it from his work, and so I want him

1915
02:18:04,799 --> 02:18:05,479
to be part of that.

1916
02:18:07,079 --> 02:18:09,479
Speaker 1: Oh awesome, all right, Well, thank you, Kai, and I

1917
02:18:09,520 --> 02:18:13,159
hope everybody is enjoying this series and hopefully most of

1918
02:18:13,200 --> 02:18:15,879
your questions will get answered as we work all the

1919
02:18:15,879 --> 02:18:18,520
way through. If you're curious, I did add to the

1920
02:18:18,520 --> 02:18:21,360
show description part one and part two, so some people

1921
02:18:21,360 --> 02:18:24,200
were saying, Worre's part one, Wor's part two. They're all

1922
02:18:24,200 --> 02:18:27,000
on the tab under live streams, but I've added them

1923
02:18:27,000 --> 02:18:28,360
to the show description so you can go