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Speaker 1: What up?

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Speaker 2: Everybody?

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast

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where you get to ask me, Paul Abernathy, anything you

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want about the National Electrical Code and all things electrically related.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be about electrical code.

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Speaker 1: It can be about electric contracting, estimating, bidding, HR issues.

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Speaker 2: When you have a company. I've dealt with all of.

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Speaker 1: It, So feel free to use me as a sounding

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block if you will, to answer to ask all types

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of questions that are about electrical So anyway, welcome to

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the show, folks, excited for you to be here. On

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this episode. We are the Let's Ask Paul Podcast. We

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are closing in on two hundred episodes. Obviously, have we

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have Mastering the Anc episodes. We have other episodes, but

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officially the Let's Ask Paul Podcast episodes. This is episode

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one ninety six today, but we are rapidly approaching the

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episode two hundred uh and so that's awesome that that

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we have that many. But we have over one thousand

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Speaker 2: So I encourage you.

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Speaker 1: To go to any of your favorite platforms, whether it's Speaker, Spotify,

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Deezer iHeartRadio whatever and go searching for master the NEC

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podcasts or also search for the Ask Paul Let's Ask podcast.

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Now here's a cool thing though, both of those, whether

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you're going to master the NEC podcasts or the Let's

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Ask Paul, you can get access to both of them

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It's just a great mobile app that you don't download

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You don't have to worry about me putting software on

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a mobile app and does everything like a mobile app,

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and it treats it like a mobile app. But the

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beautiful thing is that we can add stuff, change stuff,

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and we do it natively in the web version, and

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it doesn't affect your phone, so you're never having to

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download an update and things like that, so we don't

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put that bloat wear that crap into your phone. But

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in order to get it, you need to go over

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to our website fasttrackssystem dot com and you'll see in

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the navigation you'll see what it says mobile app, and

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it's preally simple. Click it, download it, and it would

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ask you do you want to give it permission? Say yes,

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because that way we send notifications from time to time.

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Reality is, the last actual notification that I sent h

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pushed to anybody was God.

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Speaker 2: It had to be seven eight months ago.

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Speaker 1: So it's good to have it in case something new

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comes up to push, but generally I don't mess with

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that too often. But again, if it asks you say yes,

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that way you'll get notifications. Other than that, you still

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say no. You still get to load, you know, put

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the icon on your phone and you can get access

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to blogs.

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Speaker 2: Our chat forum if you register.

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Speaker 1: The chat forum on our mobile app is only for

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people that are registered with the mobile app. Okay, so

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it's not going to allow riffraff in there. You have

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to register to be able to chat and interact and

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post images and things like that. Okay, So anyway, check

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that out. We've got calculators on there, conductor sizing calculators,

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some motor calculators, a.

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Speaker 2: Bunch of free stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's just great to have a resource in your pocket,

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right and again you can get access to videos, to blogs,

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all kinds of stuff. Okay, well that said, let's go

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on and get into today's question that was submitted again

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over on Paul Abernathy dot com. Make sure you submit

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your questions and always let me know what code cycle

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you're dealing with when you do submit a question, so

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I know where I need to go. But if you

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don't tell me, I'm always going to use the latest

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edition of the National Electric Code, and of course that's

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the twenty twenty three edition right now. All right, so

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I'm going to read the question and then I will

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elaborate on the question for you, so the question goes.

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Good evening, Paul, I hope everything is well and that

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the move went smoothly. I've got a question I was

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hoping you could respond via email, and incidentally, I have

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responded to the individual via email, so that has already

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been taken care of, so that's not an issue.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: It says, what is your interpretation of two ten dout

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eleven C two and two ten dot fifty two f Now,

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for those that don't know two ten dot eleven C

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two that has to do with requiring at least one

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laundry circuit in a dwelling. Okay, at least one twenty

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app laundry circuit. Can you have more than one? Absolutely,

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but that's it. You have to have at least one.

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Speaker 2: Makes sense.

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Speaker 1: And then it says two ten to fifty two f

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that one is requiring that you have at least one

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receptacle outlet in the dedicated area for laundry equipment like

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a washing machine.

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Speaker 2: Okay, makes sense. Okay, so that's how those are. All right.

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It goes on to say what was the intent here? A.

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Speaker 1: I interpret it to mean that the laundry circuit can

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supply receptors in the utility room designated for laundry equipment.

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If there are additional receptacles in the utility room that

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are not designated for laundry equipment general use, in my opinion,

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I normally will run the power to those from the

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nearby lighting or general use circuit and make sure those

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receptacles is gfc I protected as required in the utility room.

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I'm eager to see what you think, because this has

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stirred up quite the fuss in my office. Thank you

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in advance, and God bless. Okay, so real quick, let's

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do a the interpretation deal. So two ten dot eleven

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C two is simply part of those required brand circuits. Right,

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You're required to have a minimum of two small appliance.

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If you have a garage, you have to have a

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minimum of one twenty apth circuit. For the garage, you

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have bathroom, you have to have at least one bathroom

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brand circuit. So for a dwelling, these are requirements for

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certain circuits that you have to have, Okay, at least one,

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and for the small appliance brand circuit for example, that's

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two ten don't eleven CE one. You gotta have at

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least two twenty amp small appliance brand circuits. Okay, these

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are required brand circuits. That's what it's talking about. Now,

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if you look at two ten dout eleven and we

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look at C two, I'm going to read it for

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you so that we can use this and kind of

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bring context to what he's asking. It says for the

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laundry brand circuit. It says in addition to the number

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of branch circuits required by other parts of this section.

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Speaker 2: And basically what.

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Speaker 1: That means is the other ones that are required like

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the bathroom, the two small appliance in the garage, if

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you have one, that's what it's talking about. In addition

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to those, it says, at least one additional twenty amp

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brand circuit shall be So it shall be. It's not

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an option shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle

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outlets or it's outlet plets plural outlet or outlets, okay,

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required by.

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Speaker 2: Two ten fifty two F.

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Speaker 1: This circuit shall have no other outlets, So get it

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off the board right away. When he says no other outlets,

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it means no other outlets that are not germane to

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those that are required by two ten dot fifty two F.

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So lighting outlets can't be on this circuit, okay, So

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that's what that is.

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Speaker 2: First, get that out of the way.

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Speaker 1: And when it says no other outlets, it's not just

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talking about receptacles, okay, because they're devices. So an outlet

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is a point in the system where you take power.

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So you can't supply anything else with this branch circuit

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other than the receptacles that are being installed to meet

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the requirement of two ten dot fifty two F.

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Speaker 2: That's it. Now, what is two ten dot fifty two.

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Speaker 1: F you ask, well, that has to do with the

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receptacle outlets that are required in laundry areas. It doesn't

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necessarily say laundry room. It says launch areas. And why

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is this important? Well, I could have a big location,

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a finished room that's that that has a washing dryer

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in it. That that doesn't make the entire area a

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laundry room. It's just the area where laundry is going

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to be done.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So what it says in two ten fifty two, if

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it says in dwelling units, it says at least one

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receptacle outlet shall be installed in areas designated for the

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installation of laundry equipment. A receptacle in the utility room

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over in the corner where somebody might plug in a

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iron electric iron, closed iron doesn't make that laundry.

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Speaker 2: Equipment, folks.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So in most cases, in this laundry area, the

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only thing that's going to be laundry equipment is a

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washing machine. You with me, So it would say, and

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you have two exceptions here, but they don't apply because

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we're talking about single, single dwellings, single family dwellings. So

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these are from multi family dwellings and things like that.

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So yeah, don't even look at the exceptions based on

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this question. So I have to make sure that I

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have an area let's say it's plumbed in for the

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water for the washing machine. That's a designated area for

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the laundry equipment, so the recept I have to have

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at least one receptacle outlet there, and that is an

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outlet box with a receptacle device installed in it to

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be able to plug in a laundry equipment like a

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washing machine. That's what we're talking about. That was two

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ten dot fit f That's what that's all about. Now

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in the question if you have a utility room, there

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is absolutely nothing, okay, in that requires the utility room

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to have GFCI protection. If you go look at two

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ten dot eight, it talks about the laundry air. Yeah,

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and that's going to be area that's designated as a

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laundry area requires GFCI protection, But that doesn't have anything.

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Nothing in there says a utility room. That's not listed here, okay.

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So it's very important for the nuances of how you

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read COODE and how you look at certain things.

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Speaker 2: It's no different.

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Speaker 1: For example, if I have a layout in a house

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and let's say let's say it's the living room is

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connected to the kitchen, and there's no real line of demarcation,

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then you have to have this imaginary line of demarcation

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where the kitchen ends in the living room begins. Now,

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you use maybe some of the features of the room,

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some of the things that how it's laid out, but

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somebody's got to make that decision. As an electrical inspector.

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I had to make that decision, okay, and it made sense,

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and it usually becomes pretty evident as you're physically walking

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it and looking at it. So in this case, here

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this rule requires at least one twenty amp laundry circuit

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to supply receptacles that are for a designated area for

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laundry equipment, not the other receptacles in the room. And

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that's what this question was about. It really wasn't a

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question about GFCI. It was a question about the laundry

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circuit and the receptacles that are going to be associated

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with that laundry equipment.

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Speaker 2: So that's what this is all about.

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Speaker 1: You have to have at least one twenty amp circuit

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for the laundry, and the receptacles that it supplies are

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the ones that are installed in a designated area for

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laundry equipment. That's what that's all about. So if I

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have a big room, a utility room, and I have

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other receptacles in there, then you're just going to supply

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those by other general purpose brand circuits. They they're not

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to be on with those brand circuits. That's for what

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that brand circuit for the laundry, that is for that

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dedicated that that specific designated area for that laundry equipment.

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Speaker 2: That's what it's for.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So hopefully that makes makes some kind of sense

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now within that laundry area, that sphere of where you're

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going to be doing laundry, any receptacle in accordance with

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two ten dot eight one hundred and twenty five volts

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through two fifty that includes the dryer, by the way,

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all of that's going to be on GFCI. But that

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doesn't necessarily mean that I have to put a receptacle

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that's ten feet across the room on the wall on GFCI, unless,

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of course it's in a basement and that's already required

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under two ten dot eight. A Uh, what is it

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a A five for basements for example, whether it's finished

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or unfinished.

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Speaker 2: So you get what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean a utility room doesn't necessarily mean

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it's a basement. And you know, you get what I'm saying.

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We have to end up using a little common sense,

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and my goal is hopefully AHJ's will use.

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Speaker 2: A little common sense.

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Speaker 1: Here would be the point if I had a ten

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foot by ten foot room and I have a designated

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receptacle for the washing machine, and somebody puts another receptacle

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on the opposite wall. Because again, you know this is

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you can argue whether or not whether it has to

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have spacing or not, right, But the point is if

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I put other receptacles in there, they typically would not

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be on the laundry circuit. Now you'll have somebody come

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along and say, yeah, but they could plug an iron

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in with an ironing board, and I don't necessarily know

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that that qualifies as any laundry equipment.

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Speaker 2: Be honest with you, that'd be a stretch personally.

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Speaker 1: Because a good I could take that ironing board and

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do it up on the island in my kitchen, and

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does that all of a sudden create a laundry area

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just because I'm ironing some clothes on the counter. No,

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I think we have to use a little more common

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sense than that. And you know it's about time that

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we start bringing a little more common sense back to

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the code. Okay, hopefully the inspector's out there listen, because

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you need a little more common sense brought back to

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the code. Okay, all right, Hopefully that answers that question

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for the submitter to the best I can, and we'll

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see what other questions.

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Speaker 2: Do we have. Okay, So this next.

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Speaker 1: Question, says big fan, longtime listener. We are currently building

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a five story multi family apartment building where each patio

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has a patio sconce. Okay, My question is our electrician

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has installed a Romax wire from the switch and has

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poked out the exterior wall with the Romax N ANDB

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conductor with absolutely no box. When looking at the lighting

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outlet installation guide, it indicates that box is required. You

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know what, I think I've answered this question. I think

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this was in episode one five to take the opportunity

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to say, you know what, folks, if you want to

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get the answer to that question, okay, then go look

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at episode one N five but the long and short

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of it is, there are allowances for you to be

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able to make splices or be able to make connections

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without a junction box. There are listed devices that you

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can make splices in that can be enclosed into the wall,

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those type of things. In this scenario, if you're poking

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it out, you can't have illuminair without a box behind it.

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You're required to be able to make those splices up

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in this case, since we're not talking about splicing in

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the wall, we're talking about illuminair and behind it. So

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unless the LUMINAIIR has something built in that you're going

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to basically connect the cable to it as a built

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in integral box. If you're not going to have that,

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then guess what you need to.

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Speaker 2: Put a junction box?

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Speaker 1: Okay in order for this to take place, right, And

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all splices typically must be contained with in a box,

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but there are some allowances for outside splices for direct burial,

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and there are also some allowances for some of those

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inline type of splice boxes that you see on manufactured

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homes and things like that. That's covered as well in

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three thirty four. So, but typically in this case you

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also state that the manufacturers instructions dictate that it did

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this be installed on a junction on a box itself,

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and so again that would be one ten three B.

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That would be not installing it in accordance with the

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manufacturer's instructions. They're telling you this luminator needs to be

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installed on a box, So I would say you have

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to install it.

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Speaker 2: On a box. Makes sense, makes sense to me. Okay, okay,

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let's see here.

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Speaker 1: We got another question to be the last one for

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this episode. Says code reference is the twenty twenty NEC.

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So this dude did it right. He told me what

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code reference he's in. Hey says Definition of luminaires Article

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four to ten dot six listing required Article seventy ten

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standalone systems. It says, we are having a debate on

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photovoltaic luminaires whether the fixture or the luminaire need to

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be listed. These fixtures are standalone and are not connected

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to the utility.

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Speaker 2: Our Article four.

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Speaker 1: Ten dot six states that all luminaires, lamp holders, and

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retrofit kits shall be listed. Luminaires by definitions state in

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part that is a it is a complete lighting unit

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consisting of a light source, such as a lamp or

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lamps together with the parts designated to position the light

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source and connect it to the power supply. The power

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supply in this case would be the PV system. I

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would appreciate your input.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So first things first, the National Electrical Code demands at

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all luminaires to be listed.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: It's flat out, doesn't matter whether they're standalone, whether they

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fall under seventy ten. ANYC demands at all luminais to

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be listed, okay, especially if you're going to be utilizing

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the NEC. Now, the other thing to be aware of

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is there's another standard for PV luminaire systems, and that

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is UL eighty eight zero one. In UL eighty eight

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zero one, it actually says that they're to be installed

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these luminais, these PV luminaire systems, okay, the sources through

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PV for these standalone systems.

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Speaker 2: It tells you that they have.

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Speaker 1: To be installed in accordance with Article seventy ten of

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the NEC. Okay, so you almost get your direct reference

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back from the from the UL ANCI standard.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Now, with all that said, if you go look at

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seventy ten dot six, it requires that the equipment be

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listed right, and in fact there are other requirements that

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are given in UL eighty eight oh one as well

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when it talks about wet location ratings and meeting UL

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fifteen ninety eight. So to me, in my opinion on

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how I review this, if the lumina air falls under

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the NEC, then.

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Speaker 2: It must be listed period. Although I did.

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Speaker 1: Recommend to the gentleman UH, and I would love to

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get his feedback. I'd love to know what UL tells him,

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but I would told him that I also would reach

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out to UL as well, and UL has individuals that

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are representatives around the country like Jeff Fecto for example,

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who are more than happy to give or render their

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opinions from a ul's perspective that type of thing, but

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from an NEC perspective, the moment that's seventy ten, which

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a standalone system, the moment that it told me that

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the that had to be listed and that all equipment

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has to be listed, and the luminaires are electrical equipment.

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And then of course the reference in UL eighty eight

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zero one when that made a reference specifically for that

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ANSI standard for those types of luminaires, when it says

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it had to comply with seventy ten. Then that told

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me right away that they have to.

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Speaker 2: Be listed all that type of thing.

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Speaker 1: So hopefully that satisfies the question or the debate on

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that application.

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Speaker 2: And they don't have a problem with that. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Now that's because it's PV. So people ask me, does

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that apply to a luminaire that has batteries in it,

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battery operated, you know, like the stuff you buy off

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TV that's got the batteries in the light. No, that's

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not what we're talking about here, because that UL standard

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is for PV luminaire systems, and the UL standard makes

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direct reference to Articles seventy ten. We're not talking about

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just something you buy off of online and you put

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some batteries in it or whatnot and you stick it

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00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:03,160
up with some with a with a peeling stick on

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the side of your door for the outside.

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Speaker 2: It's about it.

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Speaker 1: Nobody cares, okay about something like that. These are specific,

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there's a UL standard for it for photovoltach luminai systems.

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It makes a direct reference to Articles seventy ten of

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the NEEC. So they're intertwined. Whether or not the folks

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like it or not. And of course, if it reference

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yous A seven ten and sevent ten standalone systems tells

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you that at all electrical equipment has to be listed

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under the purview of seven ten, then.

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Speaker 2: Guess what then it's got to be listed.

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Speaker 1: You with me, And again not to mention though that

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you know all luminaires are listed under four ten as well.

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00:22:47,759 --> 00:22:51,759
But again there's enough connecting the dots here to let

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you know that that luminaire has to be listed if indeed.

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Speaker 2: It's a UL eighty eight oh one system.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and I wasn't given any details other than that,

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so that pretty much covers what I feel is applicable

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00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,119
to this interpretation.

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Speaker 2: All right, folks.

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00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:15,079
Speaker 1: Anyway, Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast today. Do

407
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,559
me a favor. Make sure you share this podcast with

408
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,559
other people. Let other colleagues know about it. Tell them

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00:23:21,599 --> 00:23:24,000
to get our free mobile app. It's free, doesn't cost

410
00:23:24,039 --> 00:23:26,400
them anything. They don't have to be a customer of ours.

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00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,200
You don't have to buy my products. Appreciate if you do,

412
00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:33,559
but you don't have to. If you feel inclined and

413
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,440
you want to buy some of our stuff and you're

414
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,480
not doing electrical code, we have a shop, and there's

415
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,720
a button right on the app shop, and we have

416
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:43,400
a bunch of neat stuff to help you promote the trade.

417
00:23:43,519 --> 00:23:45,880
In other words, if you're a proud master electrician, you're

418
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,000
proud journeyman electrician, or maybe just want a generic electrician.

419
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,960
We have tons of products, we have engraved products, all

420
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that stuff to show your electrical pride, and we're always

421
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adding new stuff all the time. In fact, we've got

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some new stuff in the next couple of weeks, so

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00:24:02,519 --> 00:24:05,119
make sure you check out the store. We'd love to

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00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,839
sell you some merch help support us. All of that

425
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proceeds go to help support the show. But until next time, folks,

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00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,319
stay safe, God bless, and we'll catch you on another

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00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,400
episode of Let's Ask Paul. This was episode one ninety six.

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00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,960
We're closing in on episode two hundred. Take care of

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00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:47,960
God Bless