Speaker 1: What up?
Speaker 2: Everybody?
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast
where you get to ask me, Paul Abernathy, anything you
want about the National Electrical Code and all things electrically related.
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on and get into today's question that was submitted again
over on Paul Abernathy dot com. Make sure you submit
your questions and always let me know what code cycle
you're dealing with when you do submit a question, so
I know where I need to go. But if you
don't tell me, I'm always going to use the latest
edition of the National Electric Code, and of course that's
the twenty twenty three edition right now. All right, so
I'm going to read the question and then I will
elaborate on the question for you, so the question goes.
Good evening, Paul, I hope everything is well and that
the move went smoothly. I've got a question I was
hoping you could respond via email, and incidentally, I have
responded to the individual via email, so that has already
been taken care of, so that's not an issue.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: It says, what is your interpretation of two ten dout
eleven C two and two ten dot fifty two f Now,
for those that don't know two ten dot eleven C
two that has to do with requiring at least one
laundry circuit in a dwelling. Okay, at least one twenty
app laundry circuit. Can you have more than one? Absolutely,
but that's it. You have to have at least one.
Speaker 2: Makes sense.
Speaker 1: And then it says two ten to fifty two f
that one is requiring that you have at least one
receptacle outlet in the dedicated area for laundry equipment like
a washing machine.
Speaker 2: Okay, makes sense. Okay, so that's how those are. All right.
It goes on to say what was the intent here? A.
Speaker 1: I interpret it to mean that the laundry circuit can
supply receptors in the utility room designated for laundry equipment.
If there are additional receptacles in the utility room that
are not designated for laundry equipment general use, in my opinion,
I normally will run the power to those from the
nearby lighting or general use circuit and make sure those
receptacles is gfc I protected as required in the utility room.
I'm eager to see what you think, because this has
stirred up quite the fuss in my office. Thank you
in advance, and God bless. Okay, so real quick, let's
do a the interpretation deal. So two ten dot eleven
C two is simply part of those required brand circuits. Right,
You're required to have a minimum of two small appliance.
If you have a garage, you have to have a
minimum of one twenty apth circuit. For the garage, you
have bathroom, you have to have at least one bathroom
brand circuit. So for a dwelling, these are requirements for
certain circuits that you have to have, Okay, at least one,
and for the small appliance brand circuit for example, that's
two ten don't eleven CE one. You gotta have at
least two twenty amp small appliance brand circuits. Okay, these
are required brand circuits. That's what it's talking about. Now,
if you look at two ten dout eleven and we
look at C two, I'm going to read it for
you so that we can use this and kind of
bring context to what he's asking. It says for the
laundry brand circuit. It says in addition to the number
of branch circuits required by other parts of this section.
Speaker 2: And basically what.
Speaker 1: That means is the other ones that are required like
the bathroom, the two small appliance in the garage, if
you have one, that's what it's talking about. In addition
to those, it says, at least one additional twenty amp
brand circuit shall be So it shall be. It's not
an option shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle
outlets or it's outlet plets plural outlet or outlets, okay,
required by.
Speaker 2: Two ten fifty two F.
Speaker 1: This circuit shall have no other outlets, So get it
off the board right away. When he says no other outlets,
it means no other outlets that are not germane to
those that are required by two ten dot fifty two F.
So lighting outlets can't be on this circuit, okay, So
that's what that is.
Speaker 2: First, get that out of the way.
Speaker 1: And when it says no other outlets, it's not just
talking about receptacles, okay, because they're devices. So an outlet
is a point in the system where you take power.
So you can't supply anything else with this branch circuit
other than the receptacles that are being installed to meet
the requirement of two ten dot fifty two F.
Speaker 2: That's it. Now, what is two ten dot fifty two.
Speaker 1: F you ask, well, that has to do with the
receptacle outlets that are required in laundry areas. It doesn't
necessarily say laundry room. It says launch areas. And why
is this important? Well, I could have a big location,
a finished room that's that that has a washing dryer
in it. That that doesn't make the entire area a
laundry room. It's just the area where laundry is going
to be done.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So what it says in two ten fifty two, if
it says in dwelling units, it says at least one
receptacle outlet shall be installed in areas designated for the
installation of laundry equipment. A receptacle in the utility room
over in the corner where somebody might plug in a
iron electric iron, closed iron doesn't make that laundry.
Speaker 2: Equipment, folks.
Speaker 1: Okay, So in most cases, in this laundry area, the
only thing that's going to be laundry equipment is a
washing machine. You with me, So it would say, and
you have two exceptions here, but they don't apply because
we're talking about single, single dwellings, single family dwellings. So
these are from multi family dwellings and things like that.
So yeah, don't even look at the exceptions based on
this question. So I have to make sure that I
have an area let's say it's plumbed in for the
water for the washing machine. That's a designated area for
the laundry equipment, so the recept I have to have
at least one receptacle outlet there, and that is an
outlet box with a receptacle device installed in it to
be able to plug in a laundry equipment like a
washing machine. That's what we're talking about. That was two
ten dot fit f That's what that's all about. Now
in the question if you have a utility room, there
is absolutely nothing, okay, in that requires the utility room
to have GFCI protection. If you go look at two
ten dot eight, it talks about the laundry air. Yeah,
and that's going to be area that's designated as a
laundry area requires GFCI protection, But that doesn't have anything.
Nothing in there says a utility room. That's not listed here, okay.
So it's very important for the nuances of how you
read COODE and how you look at certain things.
Speaker 2: It's no different.
Speaker 1: For example, if I have a layout in a house
and let's say let's say it's the living room is
connected to the kitchen, and there's no real line of demarcation,
then you have to have this imaginary line of demarcation
where the kitchen ends in the living room begins. Now,
you use maybe some of the features of the room,
some of the things that how it's laid out, but
somebody's got to make that decision. As an electrical inspector.
I had to make that decision, okay, and it made sense,
and it usually becomes pretty evident as you're physically walking
it and looking at it. So in this case, here
this rule requires at least one twenty amp laundry circuit
to supply receptacles that are for a designated area for
laundry equipment, not the other receptacles in the room. And
that's what this question was about. It really wasn't a
question about GFCI. It was a question about the laundry
circuit and the receptacles that are going to be associated
with that laundry equipment.
Speaker 2: So that's what this is all about.
Speaker 1: You have to have at least one twenty amp circuit
for the laundry, and the receptacles that it supplies are
the ones that are installed in a designated area for
laundry equipment. That's what that's all about. So if I
have a big room, a utility room, and I have
other receptacles in there, then you're just going to supply
those by other general purpose brand circuits. They they're not
to be on with those brand circuits. That's for what
that brand circuit for the laundry, that is for that
dedicated that that specific designated area for that laundry equipment.
Speaker 2: That's what it's for.
Speaker 1: Okay, So hopefully that makes makes some kind of sense
now within that laundry area, that sphere of where you're
going to be doing laundry, any receptacle in accordance with
two ten dot eight one hundred and twenty five volts
through two fifty that includes the dryer, by the way,
all of that's going to be on GFCI. But that
doesn't necessarily mean that I have to put a receptacle
that's ten feet across the room on the wall on GFCI, unless,
of course it's in a basement and that's already required
under two ten dot eight. A Uh, what is it
a A five for basements for example, whether it's finished
or unfinished.
Speaker 2: So you get what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean a utility room doesn't necessarily mean
it's a basement. And you know, you get what I'm saying.
We have to end up using a little common sense,
and my goal is hopefully AHJ's will use.
Speaker 2: A little common sense.
Speaker 1: Here would be the point if I had a ten
foot by ten foot room and I have a designated
receptacle for the washing machine, and somebody puts another receptacle
on the opposite wall. Because again, you know this is
you can argue whether or not whether it has to
have spacing or not, right, But the point is if
I put other receptacles in there, they typically would not
be on the laundry circuit. Now you'll have somebody come
along and say, yeah, but they could plug an iron
in with an ironing board, and I don't necessarily know
that that qualifies as any laundry equipment.
Speaker 2: Be honest with you, that'd be a stretch personally.
Speaker 1: Because a good I could take that ironing board and
do it up on the island in my kitchen, and
does that all of a sudden create a laundry area
just because I'm ironing some clothes on the counter. No,
I think we have to use a little more common
sense than that. And you know it's about time that
we start bringing a little more common sense back to
the code. Okay, hopefully the inspector's out there listen, because
you need a little more common sense brought back to
the code. Okay, all right, Hopefully that answers that question
for the submitter to the best I can, and we'll
see what other questions.
Speaker 2: Do we have. Okay, So this next.
Speaker 1: Question, says big fan, longtime listener. We are currently building
a five story multi family apartment building where each patio
has a patio sconce. Okay, My question is our electrician
has installed a Romax wire from the switch and has
poked out the exterior wall with the Romax N ANDB
conductor with absolutely no box. When looking at the lighting
outlet installation guide, it indicates that box is required. You
know what, I think I've answered this question. I think
this was in episode one five to take the opportunity
to say, you know what, folks, if you want to
get the answer to that question, okay, then go look
at episode one N five but the long and short
of it is, there are allowances for you to be
able to make splices or be able to make connections
without a junction box. There are listed devices that you
can make splices in that can be enclosed into the wall,
those type of things. In this scenario, if you're poking
it out, you can't have illuminair without a box behind it.
You're required to be able to make those splices up
in this case, since we're not talking about splicing in
the wall, we're talking about illuminair and behind it. So
unless the LUMINAIIR has something built in that you're going
to basically connect the cable to it as a built
in integral box. If you're not going to have that,
then guess what you need to.
Speaker 2: Put a junction box?
Speaker 1: Okay in order for this to take place, right, And
all splices typically must be contained with in a box,
but there are some allowances for outside splices for direct burial,
and there are also some allowances for some of those
inline type of splice boxes that you see on manufactured
homes and things like that. That's covered as well in
three thirty four. So, but typically in this case you
also state that the manufacturers instructions dictate that it did
this be installed on a junction on a box itself,
and so again that would be one ten three B.
That would be not installing it in accordance with the
manufacturer's instructions. They're telling you this luminator needs to be
installed on a box, So I would say you have
to install it.
Speaker 2: On a box. Makes sense, makes sense to me. Okay, okay,
let's see here.
Speaker 1: We got another question to be the last one for
this episode. Says code reference is the twenty twenty NEC.
So this dude did it right. He told me what
code reference he's in. Hey says Definition of luminaires Article
four to ten dot six listing required Article seventy ten
standalone systems. It says, we are having a debate on
photovoltaic luminaires whether the fixture or the luminaire need to
be listed. These fixtures are standalone and are not connected
to the utility.
Speaker 2: Our Article four.
Speaker 1: Ten dot six states that all luminaires, lamp holders, and
retrofit kits shall be listed. Luminaires by definitions state in
part that is a it is a complete lighting unit
consisting of a light source, such as a lamp or
lamps together with the parts designated to position the light
source and connect it to the power supply. The power
supply in this case would be the PV system. I
would appreciate your input.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So first things first, the National Electrical Code demands at
all luminaires to be listed.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: It's flat out, doesn't matter whether they're standalone, whether they
fall under seventy ten. ANYC demands at all luminais to
be listed, okay, especially if you're going to be utilizing
the NEC. Now, the other thing to be aware of
is there's another standard for PV luminaire systems, and that
is UL eighty eight zero one. In UL eighty eight
zero one, it actually says that they're to be installed
these luminais, these PV luminaire systems, okay, the sources through
PV for these standalone systems.
Speaker 2: It tells you that they have.
Speaker 1: To be installed in accordance with Article seventy ten of
the NEC. Okay, so you almost get your direct reference
back from the from the UL ANCI standard.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Now, with all that said, if you go look at
seventy ten dot six, it requires that the equipment be
listed right, and in fact there are other requirements that
are given in UL eighty eight oh one as well
when it talks about wet location ratings and meeting UL
fifteen ninety eight. So to me, in my opinion on
how I review this, if the lumina air falls under
the NEC, then.
Speaker 2: It must be listed period. Although I did.
Speaker 1: Recommend to the gentleman UH, and I would love to
get his feedback. I'd love to know what UL tells him,
but I would told him that I also would reach
out to UL as well, and UL has individuals that
are representatives around the country like Jeff Fecto for example,
who are more than happy to give or render their
opinions from a ul's perspective that type of thing, but
from an NEC perspective, the moment that's seventy ten, which
a standalone system, the moment that it told me that
the that had to be listed and that all equipment
has to be listed, and the luminaires are electrical equipment.
And then of course the reference in UL eighty eight
zero one when that made a reference specifically for that
ANSI standard for those types of luminaires, when it says
it had to comply with seventy ten. Then that told
me right away that they have to.
Speaker 2: Be listed all that type of thing.
Speaker 1: So hopefully that satisfies the question or the debate on
that application.
Speaker 2: And they don't have a problem with that. Okay.
Speaker 1: Now that's because it's PV. So people ask me, does
that apply to a luminaire that has batteries in it,
battery operated, you know, like the stuff you buy off
TV that's got the batteries in the light. No, that's
not what we're talking about here, because that UL standard
is for PV luminaire systems, and the UL standard makes
direct reference to Articles seventy ten. We're not talking about
just something you buy off of online and you put
some batteries in it or whatnot and you stick it
up with some with a with a peeling stick on
the side of your door for the outside.
Speaker 2: It's about it.
Speaker 1: Nobody cares, okay about something like that. These are specific,
there's a UL standard for it for photovoltach luminai systems.
It makes a direct reference to Articles seventy ten of
the NEEC. So they're intertwined. Whether or not the folks
like it or not. And of course, if it reference
yous A seven ten and sevent ten standalone systems tells
you that at all electrical equipment has to be listed
under the purview of seven ten, then.
Speaker 2: Guess what then it's got to be listed.
Speaker 1: You with me, And again not to mention though that
you know all luminaires are listed under four ten as well.
But again there's enough connecting the dots here to let
you know that that luminaire has to be listed if indeed.
Speaker 2: It's a UL eighty eight oh one system.
Speaker 1: Okay, and I wasn't given any details other than that,
so that pretty much covers what I feel is applicable
to this interpretation.
Speaker 2: All right, folks.
Speaker 1: Anyway, Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast today. Do
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episode of Let's Ask Paul. This was episode one ninety six.
We're closing in on episode two hundred. Take care of
God Bless