WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:03.879 Pete Rose logged more hits in baseball history than anyone else. 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:06.559 No one has come close to breaking his record, but 3 00:00:06.639 --> 00:00:08.519 he was also at the center of one of the 4 00:00:08.519 --> 00:00:12.960 game's biggest scandals, a scandal that changed baseball forever. In 5 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:16.120 the new book Charlie Hustle, New York Times best selling 6 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:20.199 author Keith O'Brien chronicles Pete Rose's spectacular rise and fall, 7 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:24.480 drawing on first hand interviews with Rose himself and his associates. 8 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:27.239 This is Pete Rose as we've never seen him before, 9 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:30.719 by Charlie Hustle, Available wherever books are sold. 10 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:34.439 We're outside the Travel Agency, a cannabis store that's got 11 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:35.240 everyone buzz them. 12 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:37.240 I've been to dispensers all over the United States, but 13 00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:39.479 I've never seen one this unique. 14 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:42.399 So nice, amazing vibe, some of the best customer service 15 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:43.159 I've had in a store. 16 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:44.719 Blows my expectations out of the water. 17 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:46.799 Come out of the travel Agency and see for yourself. 18 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:48.920 For use only by adults age twenty one another keep 19 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:50.520 out of reach of children and pats. In case of 20 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:54.880 acxcellent ingestion or over consumption, contact National Poison Control Center, Consumer. 21 00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:59.079 Spots, Loop Talk Radian. 22 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:11.599 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 23 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:14.719 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 24 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:22.040 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every 25 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.760 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 26 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:30.079 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 27 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:33.959 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 28 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:47.760 Good Evening. Human trafficking is the trade of people for 29 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:52.120 forced labor or sex. It also includes the illegal extraction 30 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:56.480 of human organs and tissues, and is an extremely ruthless 31 00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:01.200 and dangerous industry plaguing our world today. Most believe human 32 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:05.280 trafficking occurs in countries with no human rights legislation. This 33 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:08.599 is a myth. All types of human trafficking are alive 34 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.120 and well in most of the developed countries of the world, 35 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:15.280 like the United States, Canada, and the UK. It is 36 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:18.560 estimated that one hundred and fifty billion dollars a year 37 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:22.599 is generated in the forced labor industry alone. Is also 38 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:25.680 believed that twenty one million people are trapped in modern 39 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:32.400 day slavery, exploited for sex, labor, or organs. Most also believe, 40 00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:34.520 since they live in a free country, there is a 41 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:38.960 built in protection against such illegal practices. But for many 42 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:42.199 this is not the case. Traffickers tend to focus on 43 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:45.960 the most vulnerable in our society, but trafficking can happen 44 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:49.759 to any one. The book that we're featuring this evening 45 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:54.319 is In Chains, the Dangerous World of Human Trafficking, with 46 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:57.879 my special guests, journalist and author and host of the 47 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:02.919 radio program House of Mystery, Alan are warn But welcome 48 00:03:02.960 --> 00:03:04.680 back to the program, and thank you very much for 49 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:06.639 this interview. Alan R. 50 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:10.800 Warren, Well, it's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for 51 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:11.400 asking me. 52 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:17.840 Thank you very much. Another very very interesting book talking 53 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:23.479 about another aspect of an area that we're just gaining 54 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:26.240 an interest and an insight into, which is human trafficking 55 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:33.800 another true crime topic and something to discuss. That's, like 56 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:39.800 we mentioned in the introduction plaguing our world. Tell us 57 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.520 a little bit about why you decided to write a book, 58 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:47.080 why was this of interest to you, And tell us 59 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:49.439 a little bit about this process of writing this book 60 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:52.439 In Chains with RJ. Parker, tell us a little bit 61 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:52.800 about that. 62 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:57.639 Well, actually he approached me. It was a project that 63 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.879 he was working on and had spent a little bit 64 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:05.080 of time on, and at first when I heard what 65 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:09.240 he was doing, I was kind of not super interested, 66 00:04:09.319 --> 00:04:13.000 and I think that I was really unaware of what 67 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:18.079 was really going on in the human trafficking world and 68 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:20.680 what was real and what wasn't. You know, there's so 69 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:25.360 many bad rumors out there and myths that I think 70 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:29.360 I was like a lot of average people in the country, thinking, yeah, 71 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:31.879 I don't know, it might be okay, And so I 72 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:35.519 left it and didn't bother. But after a while he 73 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:40.560 kind of kept bringing up things. So I started searching, 74 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:44.680 and I started looking for people that were involved in 75 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:48.839 human trafficking. And when I started getting a few interviews 76 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:52.079 and putting together some stories, it sort of grabbed a 77 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:55.759 hold of me because these are when it becomes real, 78 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:58.160 Like when you meet someone and they actually give you 79 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:02.240 their story. We start to realize that this is happening 80 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:05.399 every day, and it's happening in our country, and it's 81 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:08.079 happening to people like you and I. It's happening to men, 82 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:13.800 women of all ages, and of all race and all 83 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:17.319 income brackets. It's not like it was just specific to 84 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:19.839 the poor. Of course they get picked on more. But 85 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:24.959 so that really drew me in, and I think that 86 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:28.319 it really surprised me because all of a sudden, I 87 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:33.560 had twenty twenty five personal stories in human trafficking, and 88 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:38.360 it just became so real. I had to follow this through, 89 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:41.120 if you know, I couldn't leave it incomplete. 90 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:47.639 Now, what, as you write in the book, what comprises 91 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:54.800 human trafficking? You talked about labor, sex, human organs, So 92 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:59.319 tell us about what is the magnitude of this problem. 93 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:00.399 What does it all entail? 94 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:05.519 Well, now, it seems to be it's really divided into 95 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:10.680 a few different areas. The biggest area that most people 96 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:13.920 are aware of, of course, is sex trafficking, you know, 97 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:21.600 where someone is used for sexual pleasure for money and 98 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:26.040 they're forced into it. And the next one was the 99 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:29.240 organ trafficking, which really caught me by surprise. They didn't 100 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:33.680 realize it was so major, you know, people actually having 101 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:38.160 their organs stolen or sold. And then the labor trafficking, 102 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:41.240 of course, which we probably deal with every day but 103 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.120 don't realize it, you know, in the farms and the 104 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:49.040 restaurants and spas and salons that we used, our friends 105 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:53.720 and family use. So that's kind of the main sections 106 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:55.240 of human trafficking. 107 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:01.480 Now you talk about in the book that there has 108 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:06.199 been I guess obviously some attempts to address this incredible 109 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:10.920 international problem. In January of this year, it was proclaimed 110 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:15.839 National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month by the Department 111 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:19.800 of Homeland Security in the US. You talk about the 112 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:24.319 blue campaign where you would blue wear Blue Day. This 113 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:29.439 was January s Obama. President Obama had enacted this January eleventh. 114 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:35.199 The show's solidarity. You talk about a nonprofit organization, Polaris, 115 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:40.680 which has a national human Trafficking hotline collecting data since 116 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:44.199 two thousand and three, which have identified over twenty two 117 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:48.360 thousand victims of trafficking just in the US alone. And 118 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:53.399 you say the Department of Justice, federal prosecutors federally prosecuted 119 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:57.000 over nine hundred human trafficking cases and some of the 120 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:01.439 states that were found to be most prevalent would be California, Texas, 121 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:07.560 and Florida. Now, tell us a little bit about when 122 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:12.560 we talked about the myth that only trafficking, human trafficking 123 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:16.079 is done in these countries where there's no legislation, no laws, 124 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:20.120 no enforcement. We're imagining third world countries. But tell us 125 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:20.639 what you've. 126 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:26.120 Found, Well, it's the whole world is connected on this. 127 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:32.519 It just isn't happening in one place, it's happening wherever 128 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:37.600 they need it to happen, and so you know, in 129 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:40.120 the United States it's happening as mans as it is 130 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:43.279 happening anywhere in the world, and in fact, probably more. 131 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.960 There are people that are taken off the streets and 132 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:52.279 used and forced into some sort of sexual slave you know, 133 00:08:52.440 --> 00:09:00.559 spa prostitution ring, and that they're teenage girls, boys, and 134 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.879 then they're also used on the farms, and they're used 135 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:08.840 in the different trades, and it's really just slave labor, 136 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:12.399 it's all it is. And most people sort of just 137 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:15.480 think that it's, you know, something that's distant, that something 138 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:19.000 that goes on in countries where there's yeah, not much 139 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:22.159 policing and stuff like that, and that's not the case. 140 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.039 If anything, what the poor countries do is supply a 141 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:31.919 lot of body parts for the richer countries because it's 142 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.879 easier to take them from poor countries and people in 143 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.000 the countries than it is to get them out of 144 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:42.440 people in the US or the UK. But of recent 145 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:46.840 that's been happening a lot too. It's not just from 146 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:51.679 the poor countries, so it's really all about supply and demand. 147 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:57.360 There's a big demand in rich countries, the US, the UK, 148 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:03.480 parts of Canada, Australia, and that's not that there's other 149 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:06.200 countries too. But when you have a high demand and 150 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:10.120 you have a good income and wealthy people they want something. 151 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:13.799 They want things like whether it be sex, whether it 152 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:17.159 be slave labor, or whether it's they need a new liver, 153 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:20.399 and they have the money to buy it, buy it, 154 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.720 and so they they they make the purchase and the 155 00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:27.919 brokers get them from wherever they can, and different brokers 156 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:30.600 have different setups. It's it's it's just it's a massive 157 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.679 organization and several of them. There's not just one group, 158 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:40.279 there's several and they all have their own methods. It's 159 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:43.799 it's like the drug drug traff drink drug trade, right, 160 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:45.960 it's the same thing. It comes from all over the 161 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:49.159 world and it gets into where people can pay for 162 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:52.559 it and it's about business to the to the traffickers 163 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:55.360 and the people that are getting it. It's just about 164 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:59.559 getting the service they want. So it's it's not just 165 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:02.639 the little bits of things that you see in movies 166 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:05.679 and TVs. It's going on all over and it's probably 167 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.600 going on where you live. It's probably in places you've 168 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:15.360 gone places, you've gone to eat. It's just amazing how 169 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:17.759 close it is to us and we don't realize it. 170 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:22.000 That's probably the biggest misconception people have about trafficking. 171 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:27.519 You include all kinds of antidotes and stories in this 172 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:32.559 one that demonstrates how much of a need there is 173 00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:36.200 for certain organs, and you even include the official or 174 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:40.799 unofficial I guess price tags on these organs. The heart 175 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:43.679 one hundred and nineteen thousand dollars, a small intest in 176 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:48.080 one hundred. I can't remember the exact amount, but you 177 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:53.159 had specific organs, specific prices. Now people will again would think, oh, geez, 178 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:56.799 some lawless place where a doctor doesn't have to have 179 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:03.120 these elaborate records that could be scrutinized being because you 180 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:06.159 do write and include that there's only so many organs available, 181 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:08.919 so many kidney transplants, and there's people with money waiting 182 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:13.360 on a list. You even include people voluntarily in Chicago. 183 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:17.360 So tell us a little bit about how far this 184 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:21.360 goes and how could it happen in the place like 185 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:22.679 the United States. 186 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:26.519 Well, right now in the US, we have one hundred 187 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.759 and twenty three thousand people that are on that wait list, 188 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:36.200 and people are dying every day waiting for this. So 189 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:41.279 what's happening is people with a good amount of wealth 190 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:47.320 enough to pay for things actually end up buying their 191 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:52.440 organ and so again it's that supply and demand, and 192 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:55.360 so yeah, there's countries that they can get it from. 193 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:59.200 These brokers have set up deals with hospitals in the 194 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:03.320 US as well as doctors, and what they do is 195 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:07.080 they get the list and they get the organ that's needed. 196 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:10.240 And you're like a kidney, a small intestine, or a stomach. 197 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:16.399 It could be a liver or a heart. Shoulder seems 198 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:20.080 to be a big one, and even skulls and teeth 199 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:24.639 like body like pieces of them. And and it's going 200 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:30.759 the biggest market is in America, and so they take 201 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:33.440 they get it wherever they have to. And so if 202 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.679 they don't have enough coming from the poorer countries or 203 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:38.840 they can't get it there soon enough for the person 204 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:41.639 that they're buying it for, they end up taking it 205 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:45.159 from people in America themselves. And we come across cases 206 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:49.320 where they would take it from Really it's it's homeless people, 207 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:53.559 it's people with no connections, or it can be younger 208 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:57.840 people that they just actually steal from so they catch 209 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:04.039 them in a it'suation where they get them alone and 210 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:07.639 they they basically it's kind of like that story where 211 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.720 you wake up in the bathtub without you know, a liver, 212 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:14.559 and it's it's almost that bad. You know. We have 213 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:18.120 the people that you know, get get they get caught 214 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:20.200 up in a situation where they don't realize that they 215 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.799 need someone to go up for drinks and dinner and 216 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:25.879 the next thing they know, they've had some pieces taken. 217 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:29.120 So the brokers will get it wherever they have to 218 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:32.799 get it because it's a big demand and it's big money, 219 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:36.440 and you know, it's just it's just I don't see 220 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:41.759 any end to it, because this is going to continue. Uh, 221 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:45.240 There's going to be people with money enough to buy 222 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:49.600 these body parts and they need to get them, and 223 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:51.320 they're not going to be waiting on a wait list 224 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.000 with everyone else. It's just it's just not how it is. 225 00:14:55.759 --> 00:15:01.320 I included that NBCC news investigation that they had with 226 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:08.039 a kidney broker and how he was selling the kidneys 227 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:12.480 and the FBI caught him, and you know, that's a 228 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:15.679 typical case. So you know he's selling three kidneys or 229 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:19.559 four hundred and ten thousand bucks, and he obtained them 230 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:25.120 from poor Israeli donors for ten thousand each. So what 231 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.320 cost him thirty thousand, He made four hundred and ten 232 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:33.159 thousand on it. And so you know, this is going on, 233 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.399 and what they talk about the find and that's the 234 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:39.919 other thing, you know, you know a little bit of 235 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.519 a small jail time and a fine of fifty thousand, 236 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:46.840 you know, in his particular case, the one we have 237 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:49.440 in the book, he was sentenced to two and a 238 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:54.000 half years, you know, and the man made you know, 239 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.039 a lot of money. So that doesn't deter them atall. 240 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:00.639 It doesn't stop them from doing they're doing. 241 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:06.879 You also include the notorious, of course, everybody's scapegoat country, 242 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:11.639 China in this extraction kind of industry. Tell us a 243 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:12.440 little bit about that. 244 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.480 Yeah, there's Chinese hospitals and they're run by the Communist Party, 245 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:20.679 and just that's a lot of things. 246 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:24.080 We're outside the travel agency, a cannabis store that's got 247 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:24.960 everyone buzz. 248 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:26.480 Them walked it. I felt like I was in the 249 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:28.960 elite of the skies, like I'm about to get elevated 250 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:31.399 and lifted in the best way, got the important essential 251 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.879 things I need sleep, So tinctures styles who relax my 252 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.720 body right the best New York flowers. 253 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:38.879 Come down to the travel agency and see for yourself. 254 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:40.759 For use only by adults age twenty one an older. 255 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:42.519 Keep out of reach of children and pets. In case 256 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:46.039 of accellent ingestion are over consumption contact National Poison Control Center. 257 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:47.759 Consumer Responsibly. 258 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:54.120 Are And they are one of the most mass of 259 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:59.799 the largest harvesters of the body organs for trafficking. And 260 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:02.840 what they say in two thousand and six, I think 261 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:07.680 was the last report that I had, they actually trafficked 262 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:12.480 ten thousand organs and they took them from their prisoners, 263 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:15.920 and they took them by force. And so we're not 264 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:20.359 talking about you know, people willingly saying okay, well you 265 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.200 can take this or take that and pay me so much. 266 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:26.039 They were just taking them. It's just too bad we're 267 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:29.839 taking it. And they say that they've sold those ten 268 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.720 thousand organs for a total of about a billion dollars 269 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:37.640 in US money. And there's a documentary we got a 270 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:40.880 lot of that information from called Human Harvest, and it's 271 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:46.079 on China's organ trafficking. That's massive. If you think about that, 272 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:50.720 you know, in one year, their own hospitals got ten 273 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:56.920 thousand organs and sold them throughout the world for a billion. 274 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:00.400 You really have to stop and really let that in 275 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:06.640 ten thousand pieces of people they took by force and 276 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:12.960 sold it. Just you know, I don't even know what 277 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.839 you can say about that like that. That's that's huge. 278 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.319 This is this is like a whole new trend, a 279 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:24.039 whole new drug industry going on. It's just a it's 280 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:28.240 just a different item that they're selling. I just don't 281 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:31.920 see that it's getting any better because countries like that 282 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:37.039 and Indonesia and there's there's so many countries out there, 283 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:43.000 Brazil that allow it to happen, and they're not trying 284 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:45.079 to stop it, and they're not trying to deter it. 285 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:49.039 And and of course again you've got the demand for it, 286 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:52.240 they'll fill that demand. They'll get that, they'll get the 287 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:58.359 parts needed, and it doesn't matter about the people the victims. 288 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:01.920 Well, you also show demonstrate in this book too that 289 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.920 the a young child, I think six years old or 290 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:07.599 a young anyway, a young boy was left in a 291 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.480 field missing his eyes. So we know that through the 292 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:16.000 forces of human nature and greed and again demand and supply, 293 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:19.799 that they're going to It's not much of a story 294 00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:24.319 down the road to imagine that people will be not 295 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:28.759 in a hospital, not be in China, just be victims 296 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.799 potentially of people that want to make some money anyway 297 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:37.039 they can. Let's talk about an incredible example that you 298 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:43.519 include in the book International Sex Ring. But we're talking 299 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:47.920 about Albuquerque Motel six. But really what this story demonstrates 300 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:51.920 is how through a website like Backpage, that this can 301 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:57.720 actually happen. You explain how Backpage and through complaints and 302 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:03.680 through many articles, and how Backpage facilitated this. So tell 303 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:06.400 us about the back Page, what they did, how they 304 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:11.279 did it, and the flight to be able to you know, 305 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.240 shut down back Page and very well demonstrated in this 306 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.880 Albuquerque Motel six case. Tell us, as you write in 307 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:21.440 the book about this case. 308 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:29.039 Yeah, Well, for for people that don't know, Backpage was 309 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:35.000 like Craigslist, and but it mainly focused on just want 310 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:41.400 ads specific it was a lot more in prostitution, uh, 311 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:46.960 people meeting people like hooking up and there was it 312 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:50.799 was more of that kind of of of a website 313 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:55.039 than Craigslist. Craigslist had that, but they had so much 314 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.799 more like you could buy you know, auto parts and 315 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:01.039 fridge and still over and all that like it was. 316 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:04.880 It was, you know, a rented apartment. Backpage mainly focused 317 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:10.359 on meetups, and so what it happened is backpage became 318 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:14.240 one of the key places to go to. So it 319 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:17.720 ended up it would allow people to advertise an array 320 00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:21.559 of services that had many sexual appetites, if you will. 321 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:25.480 So it included things like bondage, s and m the 322 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:29.680 cook encounters, you name it, it was there. You had a 323 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:34.319 you're into feet, you're into arms, you know, whatever it was, 324 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:37.920 and you could find it. And so what happened was 325 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:44.319 a lot of the traffickers and I guess online pimps 326 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:47.440 you would call them. They if they had different types 327 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:50.680 of girls that would do different things and fulfill different needs, 328 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:56.319 and they would advertise them on there and as well 329 00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.880 as answer ads. So of course the FBI was always 330 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.480 on the lookout and they're always searching for missing people 331 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:08.160 or girls mainly girls in these boys as well that 332 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:12.079 had gone missing that were possibly being trafficked. And so 333 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.039 if they would find someone and their picture, they would 334 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.920 do it through Backpage, mainly someone Craigslist, you know, they 335 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.640 would see the picture and they would set up a 336 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:25.799 sting and they would recover the lost person, you know, 337 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:31.160 and that happened. But what happened eventually it was all 338 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:35.079 shut down. So they shut down back Page completely, and 339 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:40.279 they shut down the Craigslist the services section, so neither 340 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:43.640 one of them were going anymore. So they were left 341 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:49.160 with no single place to monk, you know, the people 342 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:55.400 for sexual traffic. So what happened was now it's gone 343 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:59.240 to an array of sights all over the world. So 344 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:02.200 it's made the job really hard for the FBI in 345 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:05.079 the sense that they've got to be constantly searching for 346 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:08.680 sites all through the world and new sites, and it's 347 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:13.039 changing all the time, and it's made their job a 348 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:17.759 lot harder. Now that I'm for advertising sex, but I 349 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:22.200 think the initial intention was to make this, you know, 350 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.200 go away, to fix this, and by cutting those it 351 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:31.920 didn't do it, it made it worse. So now they've 352 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:36.440 got so many more man hours to be involved into 353 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:41.559 try and define these, you know, people that were kidnapped 354 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:46.359 and used for sex. And what they're doing is they're 355 00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:50.160 finding that there's places being used like hotels and hotels 356 00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:54.480 and a motel six was one of these in one 357 00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:58.480 of these cases. And this is becoming a little bit 358 00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:02.720 more regular. It's not being used as a chain, don't 359 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:05.920 get me wrong. It's being used as independent units that 360 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.960 are owned separately, but under that banner of a chain hotel. 361 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.440 And of course they always deny it. They'll say, well, 362 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.599 we had no idea what was going on, but the 363 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:22.279 evidence kind of shows that they did know what was happening, 364 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:25.279 and they do know what's going on in their hotel 365 00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:30.960 rooms and how they're selling them. So there's still quite 366 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:34.599 a few open cases on different hotels, not just that 367 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:36.559 motel sixth that we talked about. 368 00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:43.079 You write in this book too, of the growing necessary 369 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:47.079 realization of the magnitude of this problem and the problem 370 00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:52.240 itself and dispelling some of these myths that as you 371 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:56.359 write that sex trafficking is not prostitution, you know that 372 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.200 there's all these ideas that people have help you who 373 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:05.519 can come to be a slave or to be human trafficked, 374 00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:10.400 And you include numerous examples of how easy it can 375 00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:16.440 be people duped, complex sophisticated ruses and just brutal ruses, 376 00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:20.440 like one girl in her apartment and a man that 377 00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:22.960 she knew as a pimp came and said, listen, we'd 378 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:24.359 like to take you out and she said, look, I 379 00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:27.079 got schoolwork. And so it's a schoolgirl and she's taken 380 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:31.720 forcefully from her home and then kidnapped and taken and 381 00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:35.559 human trafficked. You talk about a case in two thousand 382 00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:39.839 and six. It again demonstrates the difference in attitudes. Again 383 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:45.279 still growing, still maturing in that realization of what really 384 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:48.799 this is all involved. But this was called Free China, 385 00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:53.480 and you talk about her boyfriend, Johnny Allen, and how 386 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:56.599 she ends up in prison. Tell us a little bit 387 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.160 about this case that you include, very dramatic Free China 388 00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:02.720 and what happens to her. 389 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:10.599 Yeah, the in a typical case like this, and even 390 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:13.079 like this, a lot of times it happens to girls 391 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:19.319 that are unaware of this of trafficking period, and they 392 00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:25.160 live in a half decent community with you know, a 393 00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:30.240 good neighborhood and fairly good home and parents. And in 394 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:32.880 this particular case, it was a sixteen year old and 395 00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:35.079 a lot of times what they're doing is they're just 396 00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:39.559 running away from home or they meet someone and this 397 00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:42.960 case it was a twenty four year old and you know, 398 00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:46.680 and they become boyfriend girlfriend in the in the girl's 399 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:51.519 point of view, but what they're really doing, is they're 400 00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:58.119 being lured into what's going to end up being a 401 00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:02.920