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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
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Speaker 8: Good Evening. Human trafficking is the trade of people for
Speaker 8: forced labor or sex. It also includes the illegal extraction
Speaker 8: of human organs and tissues, and is an extremely ruthless
Speaker 8: and dangerous industry plaguing our world today. Most believe human
Speaker 8: trafficking occurs in countries with no human rights legislation. This
Speaker 8: is a myth. All types of human trafficking are alive
Speaker 8: and well in most of the developed countries of the world,
Speaker 8: like the United States, Canada, and the UK. It is
Speaker 8: estimated that one hundred and fifty billion dollars a year
Speaker 8: is generated in the forced labor industry alone. Is also
Speaker 8: believed that twenty one million people are trapped in modern
Speaker 8: day slavery, exploited for sex, labor, or organs. Most also believe,
Speaker 8: since they live in a free country, there is a
Speaker 8: built in protection against such illegal practices. But for many
Speaker 8: this is not the case. Traffickers tend to focus on
Speaker 8: the most vulnerable in our society, but trafficking can happen
Speaker 8: to any one. The book that we're featuring this evening
Speaker 8: is In Chains, the Dangerous World of Human Trafficking, with
Speaker 8: my special guests, journalist and author and host of the
Speaker 8: radio program House of Mystery, Alan are warn But welcome
Speaker 8: back to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 8: this interview. Alan R.
Speaker 3: Warren, Well, it's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for
Speaker 3: asking me.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much. Another very very interesting book talking
Speaker 8: about another aspect of an area that we're just gaining
Speaker 8: an interest and an insight into, which is human trafficking
Speaker 8: another true crime topic and something to discuss. That's, like
Speaker 8: we mentioned in the introduction plaguing our world. Tell us
Speaker 8: a little bit about why you decided to write a book,
Speaker 8: why was this of interest to you, And tell us
Speaker 8: a little bit about this process of writing this book
Speaker 8: In Chains with RJ. Parker, tell us a little bit
Speaker 8: about that.
Speaker 3: Well, actually he approached me. It was a project that
Speaker 3: he was working on and had spent a little bit
Speaker 3: of time on, and at first when I heard what
Speaker 3: he was doing, I was kind of not super interested,
Speaker 3: and I think that I was really unaware of what
Speaker 3: was really going on in the human trafficking world and
Speaker 3: what was real and what wasn't. You know, there's so
Speaker 3: many bad rumors out there and myths that I think
Speaker 3: I was like a lot of average people in the country, thinking, yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know, it might be okay, And so I
Speaker 3: left it and didn't bother. But after a while he
Speaker 3: kind of kept bringing up things. So I started searching,
Speaker 3: and I started looking for people that were involved in
Speaker 3: human trafficking. And when I started getting a few interviews
Speaker 3: and putting together some stories, it sort of grabbed a
Speaker 3: hold of me because these are when it becomes real,
Speaker 3: Like when you meet someone and they actually give you
Speaker 3: their story. We start to realize that this is happening
Speaker 3: every day, and it's happening in our country, and it's
Speaker 3: happening to people like you and I. It's happening to men,
Speaker 3: women of all ages, and of all race and all
Speaker 3: income brackets. It's not like it was just specific to
Speaker 3: the poor. Of course they get picked on more. But
Speaker 3: so that really drew me in, and I think that
Speaker 3: it really surprised me because all of a sudden, I
Speaker 3: had twenty twenty five personal stories in human trafficking, and
Speaker 3: it just became so real. I had to follow this through,
Speaker 3: if you know, I couldn't leave it incomplete.
Speaker 8: Now, what, as you write in the book, what comprises
Speaker 8: human trafficking? You talked about labor, sex, human organs, So
Speaker 8: tell us about what is the magnitude of this problem.
Speaker 8: What does it all entail?
Speaker 3: Well, now, it seems to be it's really divided into
Speaker 3: a few different areas. The biggest area that most people
Speaker 3: are aware of, of course, is sex trafficking, you know,
Speaker 3: where someone is used for sexual pleasure for money and
Speaker 3: they're forced into it. And the next one was the
Speaker 3: organ trafficking, which really caught me by surprise. They didn't
Speaker 3: realize it was so major, you know, people actually having
Speaker 3: their organs stolen or sold. And then the labor trafficking,
Speaker 3: of course, which we probably deal with every day but
Speaker 3: don't realize it, you know, in the farms and the
Speaker 3: restaurants and spas and salons that we used, our friends
Speaker 3: and family use. So that's kind of the main sections
Speaker 3: of human trafficking.
Speaker 8: Now you talk about in the book that there has
Speaker 8: been I guess obviously some attempts to address this incredible
Speaker 8: international problem. In January of this year, it was proclaimed
Speaker 8: National Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month by the Department
Speaker 8: of Homeland Security in the US. You talk about the
Speaker 8: blue campaign where you would blue wear Blue Day. This
Speaker 8: was January s Obama. President Obama had enacted this January eleventh.
Speaker 8: The show's solidarity. You talk about a nonprofit organization, Polaris,
Speaker 8: which has a national human Trafficking hotline collecting data since
Speaker 8: two thousand and three, which have identified over twenty two
Speaker 8: thousand victims of trafficking just in the US alone. And
Speaker 8: you say the Department of Justice, federal prosecutors federally prosecuted
Speaker 8: over nine hundred human trafficking cases and some of the
Speaker 8: states that were found to be most prevalent would be California, Texas,
Speaker 8: and Florida. Now, tell us a little bit about when
Speaker 8: we talked about the myth that only trafficking, human trafficking
Speaker 8: is done in these countries where there's no legislation, no laws,
Speaker 8: no enforcement. We're imagining third world countries. But tell us
Speaker 8: what you've.
Speaker 3: Found, Well, it's the whole world is connected on this.
Speaker 3: It just isn't happening in one place, it's happening wherever
Speaker 3: they need it to happen, and so you know, in
Speaker 3: the United States it's happening as mans as it is
Speaker 3: happening anywhere in the world, and in fact, probably more.
Speaker 3: There are people that are taken off the streets and
Speaker 3: used and forced into some sort of sexual slave you know,
Speaker 3: spa prostitution ring, and that they're teenage girls, boys, and
Speaker 3: then they're also used on the farms, and they're used
Speaker 3: in the different trades, and it's really just slave labor,
Speaker 3: it's all it is. And most people sort of just
Speaker 3: think that it's, you know, something that's distant, that something
Speaker 3: that goes on in countries where there's yeah, not much
Speaker 3: policing and stuff like that, and that's not the case.
Speaker 3: If anything, what the poor countries do is supply a
Speaker 3: lot of body parts for the richer countries because it's
Speaker 3: easier to take them from poor countries and people in
Speaker 3: the countries than it is to get them out of
Speaker 3: people in the US or the UK. But of recent
Speaker 3: that's been happening a lot too. It's not just from
Speaker 3: the poor countries, so it's really all about supply and demand.
Speaker 3: There's a big demand in rich countries, the US, the UK,
Speaker 3: parts of Canada, Australia, and that's not that there's other
Speaker 3: countries too. But when you have a high demand and
Speaker 3: you have a good income and wealthy people they want something.
Speaker 3: They want things like whether it be sex, whether it
Speaker 3: be slave labor, or whether it's they need a new liver,
Speaker 3: and they have the money to buy it, buy it,
Speaker 3: and so they they they make the purchase and the
Speaker 3: brokers get them from wherever they can, and different brokers
Speaker 3: have different setups. It's it's it's just it's a massive
Speaker 3: organization and several of them. There's not just one group,
Speaker 3: there's several and they all have their own methods. It's
Speaker 3: it's like the drug drug traff drink drug trade, right,
Speaker 3: it's the same thing. It comes from all over the
Speaker 3: world and it gets into where people can pay for
Speaker 3: it and it's about business to the to the traffickers
Speaker 3: and the people that are getting it. It's just about
Speaker 3: getting the service they want. So it's it's not just
Speaker 3: the little bits of things that you see in movies
Speaker 3: and TVs. It's going on all over and it's probably
Speaker 3: going on where you live. It's probably in places you've
Speaker 3: gone places, you've gone to eat. It's just amazing how
Speaker 3: close it is to us and we don't realize it.
Speaker 3: That's probably the biggest misconception people have about trafficking.
Speaker 8: You include all kinds of antidotes and stories in this
Speaker 8: one that demonstrates how much of a need there is
Speaker 8: for certain organs, and you even include the official or
Speaker 8: unofficial I guess price tags on these organs. The heart
Speaker 8: one hundred and nineteen thousand dollars, a small intest in
Speaker 8: one hundred. I can't remember the exact amount, but you
Speaker 8: had specific organs, specific prices. Now people will again would think, oh, geez,
Speaker 8: some lawless place where a doctor doesn't have to have
Speaker 8: these elaborate records that could be scrutinized being because you
Speaker 8: do write and include that there's only so many organs available,
Speaker 8: so many kidney transplants, and there's people with money waiting
Speaker 8: on a list. You even include people voluntarily in Chicago.
Speaker 8: So tell us a little bit about how far this
Speaker 8: goes and how could it happen in the place like
Speaker 8: the United States.
Speaker 3: Well, right now in the US, we have one hundred
Speaker 3: and twenty three thousand people that are on that wait list,
Speaker 3: and people are dying every day waiting for this. So
Speaker 3: what's happening is people with a good amount of wealth
Speaker 3: enough to pay for things actually end up buying their
Speaker 3: organ and so again it's that supply and demand, and
Speaker 3: so yeah, there's countries that they can get it from.
Speaker 3: These brokers have set up deals with hospitals in the
Speaker 3: US as well as doctors, and what they do is
Speaker 3: they get the list and they get the organ that's needed.
Speaker 3: And you're like a kidney, a small intestine, or a stomach.
Speaker 3: It could be a liver or a heart. Shoulder seems
Speaker 3: to be a big one, and even skulls and teeth
Speaker 3: like body like pieces of them. And and it's going
Speaker 3: the biggest market is in America, and so they take
Speaker 3: they get it wherever they have to. And so if
Speaker 3: they don't have enough coming from the poorer countries or
Speaker 3: they can't get it there soon enough for the person
Speaker 3: that they're buying it for, they end up taking it
Speaker 3: from people in America themselves. And we come across cases
Speaker 3: where they would take it from Really it's it's homeless people,
Speaker 3: it's people with no connections, or it can be younger
Speaker 3: people that they just actually steal from so they catch
Speaker 3: them in a it'suation where they get them alone and
Speaker 3: they they basically it's kind of like that story where
Speaker 3: you wake up in the bathtub without you know, a liver,
Speaker 3: and it's it's almost that bad. You know. We have
Speaker 3: the people that you know, get get they get caught
Speaker 3: up in a situation where they don't realize that they
Speaker 3: need someone to go up for drinks and dinner and
Speaker 3: the next thing they know, they've had some pieces taken.
Speaker 3: So the brokers will get it wherever they have to
Speaker 3: get it because it's a big demand and it's big money,
Speaker 3: and you know, it's just it's just I don't see
Speaker 3: any end to it, because this is going to continue. Uh,
Speaker 3: There's going to be people with money enough to buy
Speaker 3: these body parts and they need to get them, and
Speaker 3: they're not going to be waiting on a wait list
Speaker 3: with everyone else. It's just it's just not how it is.
Speaker 3: I included that NBCC news investigation that they had with
Speaker 3: a kidney broker and how he was selling the kidneys
Speaker 3: and the FBI caught him, and you know, that's a
Speaker 3: typical case. So you know he's selling three kidneys or
Speaker 3: four hundred and ten thousand bucks, and he obtained them
Speaker 3: from poor Israeli donors for ten thousand each. So what
Speaker 3: cost him thirty thousand, He made four hundred and ten
Speaker 3: thousand on it. And so you know, this is going on,
Speaker 3: and what they talk about the find and that's the
Speaker 3: other thing, you know, you know a little bit of
Speaker 3: a small jail time and a fine of fifty thousand,
Speaker 3: you know, in his particular case, the one we have
Speaker 3: in the book, he was sentenced to two and a
Speaker 3: half years, you know, and the man made you know,
Speaker 3: a lot of money. So that doesn't deter them atall.
Speaker 3: It doesn't stop them from doing they're doing.
Speaker 8: You also include the notorious, of course, everybody's scapegoat country,
Speaker 8: China in this extraction kind of industry. Tell us a
Speaker 8: little bit about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's Chinese hospitals and they're run by the Communist Party,
Speaker 3: and just that's a lot of things.
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Speaker 3: Are And they are one of the most mass of
Speaker 3: the largest harvesters of the body organs for trafficking. And
Speaker 3: what they say in two thousand and six, I think
Speaker 3: was the last report that I had, they actually trafficked
Speaker 3: ten thousand organs and they took them from their prisoners,
Speaker 3: and they took them by force. And so we're not
Speaker 3: talking about you know, people willingly saying okay, well you
Speaker 3: can take this or take that and pay me so much.
Speaker 3: They were just taking them. It's just too bad we're
Speaker 3: taking it. And they say that they've sold those ten
Speaker 3: thousand organs for a total of about a billion dollars
Speaker 3: in US money. And there's a documentary we got a
Speaker 3: lot of that information from called Human Harvest, and it's
Speaker 3: on China's organ trafficking. That's massive. If you think about that,
Speaker 3: you know, in one year, their own hospitals got ten
Speaker 3: thousand organs and sold them throughout the world for a billion.
Speaker 3: You really have to stop and really let that in
Speaker 3: ten thousand pieces of people they took by force and
Speaker 3: sold it. Just you know, I don't even know what
Speaker 3: you can say about that like that. That's that's huge.
Speaker 3: This is this is like a whole new trend, a
Speaker 3: whole new drug industry going on. It's just a it's
Speaker 3: just a different item that they're selling. I just don't
Speaker 3: see that it's getting any better because countries like that
Speaker 3: and Indonesia and there's there's so many countries out there,
Speaker 3: Brazil that allow it to happen, and they're not trying
Speaker 3: to stop it, and they're not trying to deter it.
Speaker 3: And and of course again you've got the demand for it,
Speaker 3: they'll fill that demand. They'll get that, they'll get the
Speaker 3: parts needed, and it doesn't matter about the people the victims.
Speaker 8: Well, you also show demonstrate in this book too that
Speaker 8: the a young child, I think six years old or
Speaker 8: a young anyway, a young boy was left in a
Speaker 8: field missing his eyes. So we know that through the
Speaker 8: forces of human nature and greed and again demand and supply,
Speaker 8: that they're going to It's not much of a story
Speaker 8: down the road to imagine that people will be not
Speaker 8: in a hospital, not be in China, just be victims
Speaker 8: potentially of people that want to make some money anyway
Speaker 8: they can. Let's talk about an incredible example that you
Speaker 8: include in the book International Sex Ring. But we're talking
Speaker 8: about Albuquerque Motel six. But really what this story demonstrates
Speaker 8: is how through a website like Backpage, that this can
Speaker 8: actually happen. You explain how Backpage and through complaints and
Speaker 8: through many articles, and how Backpage facilitated this. So tell
Speaker 8: us about the back Page, what they did, how they
Speaker 8: did it, and the flight to be able to you know,
Speaker 8: shut down back Page and very well demonstrated in this
Speaker 8: Albuquerque Motel six case. Tell us, as you write in
Speaker 8: the book about this case.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, for for people that don't know, Backpage was
Speaker 3: like Craigslist, and but it mainly focused on just want
Speaker 3: ads specific it was a lot more in prostitution, uh,
Speaker 3: people meeting people like hooking up and there was it
Speaker 3: was more of that kind of of of a website
Speaker 3: than Craigslist. Craigslist had that, but they had so much
Speaker 3: more like you could buy you know, auto parts and
Speaker 3: fridge and still over and all that like it was.
Speaker 3: It was, you know, a rented apartment. Backpage mainly focused
Speaker 3: on meetups, and so what it happened is backpage became
Speaker 3: one of the key places to go to. So it
Speaker 3: ended up it would allow people to advertise an array
Speaker 3: of services that had many sexual appetites, if you will.
Speaker 3: So it included things like bondage, s and m the
Speaker 3: cook encounters, you name it, it was there. You had a
Speaker 3: you're into feet, you're into arms, you know, whatever it was,
Speaker 3: and you could find it. And so what happened was
Speaker 3: a lot of the traffickers and I guess online pimps
Speaker 3: you would call them. They if they had different types
Speaker 3: of girls that would do different things and fulfill different needs,
Speaker 3: and they would advertise them on there and as well
Speaker 3: as answer ads. So of course the FBI was always
Speaker 3: on the lookout and they're always searching for missing people
Speaker 3: or girls mainly girls in these boys as well that
Speaker 3: had gone missing that were possibly being trafficked. And so
Speaker 3: if they would find someone and their picture, they would
Speaker 3: do it through Backpage, mainly someone Craigslist, you know, they
Speaker 3: would see the picture and they would set up a
Speaker 3: sting and they would recover the lost person, you know,
Speaker 3: and that happened. But what happened eventually it was all
Speaker 3: shut down. So they shut down back Page completely, and
Speaker 3: they shut down the Craigslist the services section, so neither
Speaker 3: one of them were going anymore. So they were left
Speaker 3: with no single place to monk, you know, the people
Speaker 3: for sexual traffic. So what happened was now it's gone
Speaker 3: to an array of sights all over the world. So
Speaker 3: it's made the job really hard for the FBI in
Speaker 3: the sense that they've got to be constantly searching for
Speaker 3: sites all through the world and new sites, and it's
Speaker 3: changing all the time, and it's made their job a
Speaker 3: lot harder. Now that I'm for advertising sex, but I
Speaker 3: think the initial intention was to make this, you know,
Speaker 3: go away, to fix this, and by cutting those it
Speaker 3: didn't do it, it made it worse. So now they've
Speaker 3: got so many more man hours to be involved into
Speaker 3: try and define these, you know, people that were kidnapped
Speaker 3: and used for sex. And what they're doing is they're
Speaker 3: finding that there's places being used like hotels and hotels
Speaker 3: and a motel six was one of these in one
Speaker 3: of these cases. And this is becoming a little bit
Speaker 3: more regular. It's not being used as a chain, don't
Speaker 3: get me wrong. It's being used as independent units that
Speaker 3: are owned separately, but under that banner of a chain hotel.
Speaker 3: And of course they always deny it. They'll say, well,
Speaker 3: we had no idea what was going on, but the
Speaker 3: evidence kind of shows that they did know what was happening,
Speaker 3: and they do know what's going on in their hotel
Speaker 3: rooms and how they're selling them. So there's still quite
Speaker 3: a few open cases on different hotels, not just that
Speaker 3: motel sixth that we talked about.
Speaker 8: You write in this book too, of the growing necessary
Speaker 8: realization of the magnitude of this problem and the problem
Speaker 8: itself and dispelling some of these myths that as you
Speaker 8: write that sex trafficking is not prostitution, you know that
Speaker 8: there's all these ideas that people have help you who
Speaker 8: can come to be a slave or to be human trafficked,
Speaker 8: And you include numerous examples of how easy it can
Speaker 8: be people duped, complex sophisticated ruses and just brutal ruses,
Speaker 8: like one girl in her apartment and a man that
Speaker 8: she knew as a pimp came and said, listen, we'd
Speaker 8: like to take you out and she said, look, I
Speaker 8: got schoolwork. And so it's a schoolgirl and she's taken
Speaker 8: forcefully from her home and then kidnapped and taken and
Speaker 8: human trafficked. You talk about a case in two thousand
Speaker 8: and six. It again demonstrates the difference in attitudes. Again
Speaker 8: still growing, still maturing in that realization of what really
Speaker 8: this is all involved. But this was called Free China,
Speaker 8: and you talk about her boyfriend, Johnny Allen, and how
Speaker 8: she ends up in prison. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 8: about this case that you include, very dramatic Free China
Speaker 8: and what happens to her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the in a typical case like this, and even
Speaker 3: like this, a lot of times it happens to girls
Speaker 3: that are unaware of this of trafficking period, and they
Speaker 3: live in a half decent community with you know, a
Speaker 3: good neighborhood and fairly good home and parents. And in
Speaker 3: this particular case, it was a sixteen year old and
Speaker 3: a lot of times what they're doing is they're just
Speaker 3: running away from home or they meet someone and this
Speaker 3: case it was a twenty four year old and you know,
Speaker 3: and they become boyfriend girlfriend in the in the girl's
Speaker 3: point of view, but what they're really doing, is they're
Speaker 3: being lured into what's going to end up being a
Speaker 3: you know, a sex train business. So they get lured
Speaker 3: into it. They eventually move in with the guy, like
Speaker 3: she moved in with a twenty four year old boyfriend,
Speaker 3: and it just went from there. All of a sudden,
Speaker 3: it's too late and he starts to force her into prostitution.
Speaker 3: And that's what happened. And so eventually she was sold
Speaker 3: out and used for sex several times. And if she
Speaker 3: tried to do any resistance in this case, she had
Speaker 3: been held with a gun, she had been beaten. It
Speaker 3: just an amazing I don't get too much into the
Speaker 3: deep details, but I'll give you some of the basics
Speaker 3: on this. But eventually what happens is she ended up
Speaker 3: being tried as an adult and convicted for first degree
Speaker 3: felony murder because of one of them, or one of
Speaker 3: the guys that you know, the Johns, that been she
Speaker 3: had been sold to. She had fatally shocked because she
Speaker 3: had used the purse that she had, the gun she
Speaker 3: had always had in her purse, and because of the
Speaker 3: way he was treating her when they were together. He thought,
Speaker 3: you know, she thought she was going to be killed,
Speaker 3: and so you end up with, you know, a sixteen
Speaker 3: year old that met a guy, ran away from home,
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden she's used in sex trade
Speaker 3: and she ends up in a murder and ends up
Speaker 3: being put in jail and the free Cynthia. The whole
Speaker 3: thing about her story is in a documentary that came
Speaker 3: out in twenty eleven, and they're looking for people to
Speaker 3: help get her free because people don't think she should
Speaker 3: be in jail until like, I think it's the age
Speaker 3: sixty nine for her before she's doing up for parole,
Speaker 3: you know, so you know she really you know, and
Speaker 3: this is not this is going on in the States
Speaker 3: big time. There's so many teenage girls meeting men and
Speaker 3: thinking that they've got a boyfriend. They eventually get talked
Speaker 3: into moving in with the boy and all of a
Speaker 3: sudden they get moved to another city. They get they
Speaker 3: change their hair color, changed their looks, and then they
Speaker 3: put them up for prostitution and they start forcing them
Speaker 3: they have sex. If they refuse anything, they get beat,
Speaker 3: they get choked, they get raped savagely. It's just a
Speaker 3: it's a it's a terrible situation and you can end
Speaker 3: up like Cynthia Brown, where you end up actually in
Speaker 3: the defense of yourself killing someone and you end up
Speaker 3: being put away for your whole life, and it's just
Speaker 3: a it's just a it's just a terrible scenario and
Speaker 3: it doesn't come up any good for anybody.
Speaker 8: Yes, it's incredible too. That again unlikely advocate Kim Kardashian,
Speaker 8: and we've heard a little bit about her fighting for
Speaker 8: people's rights, not women's rights. Wrongfully convicted or what she
Speaker 8: thinks in this case is just an unjust conviction. Kim
Speaker 8: Kardashian met with, of course, the President Trump May two
Speaker 8: thousand and eight, trying to have this case appealed. Interesting
Speaker 8: too that this victim, we as you write in this book,
Speaker 8: not eligible for parole till she's sixty nine years old.
Speaker 8: In twenty twelve, there was a situation where she might
Speaker 8: have because it was a mandatory life for a juvenile
Speaker 8: because she was sixteen years old, was unconstitutional, but of
Speaker 8: course she was not eligible for that. And so any
Speaker 8: kind of changes and changes an attitude towards this, like
Speaker 8: celebrities lining up to help defend her with this and
Speaker 8: plead her case. That's the kinds of things that are
Speaker 8: slow to progress while this woman still sits in prison
Speaker 8: despite celebrities and their connections.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's unfortunate because now, not not saying, not
Speaker 3: putting down Kim Kardashian, but uh, the problem is we
Speaker 3: need people that have more more saying in who in
Speaker 3: what they do, more credibility, I guess is what it is,
Speaker 3: because like you know, that scenario happened with her and
Speaker 3: Donald Trump and nothing changed nothing. You know, It's it's
Speaker 3: almost like something to put on your Facebook page and
Speaker 3: then next week it's something else. We need people to
Speaker 3: really get involved and do the work and make something
Speaker 3: happen that you know. I'm so I appreciate that she's
Speaker 3: making an effort and she brought it to everyone's attention,
Speaker 3: but we've got to stay on it. We can't. We
Speaker 3: can't just have that and you make the news cycle
Speaker 3: and you smile and take some pictures and then everybody
Speaker 3: walks away. Nothing goes, nothing is on the people. We
Speaker 3: have to keep on this otherwise it's not going to stop.
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Speaker 8: ship happen now. Alan I mentioned talking about a victim, Marinella,
Speaker 8: a seventeen year old and she was at her apartment
Speaker 8: as I mentioned, and this pimp named Pornell and another
Speaker 8: gentleman named Marius Negeloveneux talked about a barbecue. Can you
Speaker 8: tell us a little bit about this particularly disturbing case
Speaker 8: and what happened to her and how long it took
Speaker 8: her to get back to Romania?
Speaker 3: Well, like so many of the others, Yeah, it just
Speaker 3: you know, I can't, I can't even you know. It's
Speaker 3: it's again, it's a typical person that's struggling to survive,
Speaker 3: make rent tuition, and they end up being being caught
Speaker 3: up in something where they think they're you know, just
Speaker 3: being part of a of a party or a barbecue
Speaker 3: and meeting friends and stuff, and and and they get
Speaker 3: taken and they get forced into this sexual situation where
Speaker 3: they're used. They're trafficked really to people that have money,
Speaker 3: and and sometimes they never get out and the few
Speaker 3: that do it just sort of it takes away their life.
Speaker 3: It takes away almost their whole life. There's there's almost nothing,
Speaker 3: nothing left. By the time they they they come out there,
Speaker 3: they're already close to thirty or late twenties, and and
Speaker 3: it's just ruined their whole life. It's it's really hard
Speaker 3: for me to get into a lot of the details
Speaker 3: of these cases we wrote because we did most of
Speaker 3: them last year, but they all end up much the same,
Speaker 3: and they all go through the same sort of thing.
Speaker 3: And the worst part again out of it is the
Speaker 3: traffickers that get caught. If they get caught, the prosecution
Speaker 3: rate is probably in the twenty to thirty percent ratio
Speaker 3: because most of the people that are victimized will testify,
Speaker 3: and that's one major problem, you know, getting actual people
Speaker 3: to do anything and to come to court, and a
Speaker 3: lot of times it's far too late. So you know,
Speaker 3: they if they do get caught, chances are nothing much
Speaker 3: will happen to most of them. You can say probably
Speaker 3: about seventy five percent of them get off with with
Speaker 3: no they get away with it.
Speaker 8: In this case where you talk about Marinella sh in
Speaker 8: the f it's incredible because you get these kinds of details.
Speaker 8: On the very first day she made three hundred pounds,
Speaker 8: enough to support her family for six weeks, and yet
Speaker 8: she didn't get anything and would have to ask for
Speaker 8: a cigarette or a coffee, never let outside, and she
Speaker 8: was taken to Manchester. Was fifteen other girls there beaten.
Speaker 8: They were often beaten, and the break came in May
Speaker 8: two thousand and nine when they came to avoid uh
Speaker 8: arrest part made in Asia of Elenu based on a
Speaker 8: tip and police saw the situation there. Now the father,
Speaker 8: which was even more disturbing. The father's involved with this
Speaker 8: man named Bogden, and in courts, unlike what you say,
Speaker 8: often most often there's not really any prosecution or they
Speaker 8: avoid prosecution. The father got six years and this Netcha
Speaker 8: Neges of Elenoux got twenty one years, and finally in
Speaker 8: twenty eleven you write that Marinello returned to her parents
Speaker 8: in Romania. So an incredible ordeal, and that's just again,
Speaker 8: like you write, it's typical of many of the cases,
Speaker 8: whether they're from Romania or where they're from a ruse
Speaker 8: or some forceful entry into the sex trafficking world. As
Speaker 8: you say, it's very dangerous because obviously you have another
Speaker 8: story in here where a couple people involved in this
Speaker 8: Motel six I believe were murdered. Actually, but they were involved,
Speaker 8: and I guess the people that are running this organization
Speaker 8: didn't like how they were doing things. So, as you
Speaker 8: write in the book, this is a very dangerous world
Speaker 8: that it's being created from this human trafficking people that
Speaker 8: will do anything with anyone, treat anyone like a victim,
Speaker 8: and make anyone a victim. And if I guess it's
Speaker 8: a precarious situation where they might have prosecution, might be convicted.
Speaker 8: These people are like, you're right. They're often intimidated from
Speaker 8: wit testifying at trial, but more often they're just go missing, don't.
Speaker 3: They Yeah, Quite often they just disappear. Quite a few
Speaker 3: of them are in hiding. And if they do come
Speaker 3: out and you do get to see them tell their story,
Speaker 3: whether it be to an author like me or RJ
Speaker 3: or if you're in a documentary or something, you know
Speaker 3: they have to have their name changed and they have
Speaker 3: to have their looks altered. A lot of them live
Speaker 3: the rest of their life scared because they know that
Speaker 3: most people that are doing the trafficking have a lot
Speaker 3: of contacts. They're all over there. They're in every city
Speaker 3: in the US, for instance. They're moving girls and people
Speaker 3: around all the time, and they have a lot of money,
Speaker 3: and so they're scared. They're really scared to go and testify.
Speaker 3: If you're lucky, one or two people in the group
Speaker 3: in the chain of command get put in jail for
Speaker 3: a couple of years. There's still a lot of people
Speaker 3: that are in that trafficking group that will come get you,
Speaker 3: or they're really scared of that, or they'll get your family,
Speaker 3: and quite a bit in the stories, if you know this,
Speaker 3: you know, they get told. You know, a fourteen year
Speaker 3: old or sixteen year old girl that being held in
Speaker 3: a different city gets told you if you run away,
Speaker 3: well we'll go to you. We know your family will
Speaker 3: kill your brother, you'll kill your mother. And they believe it,
Speaker 3: you know. So they're living in a total on the edge,
Speaker 3: and just because they get free doesn't mean it goes away.
Speaker 3: It's because it's still going on and they're left in
Speaker 3: a in limbo, so to speak, just sitting and you know,
Speaker 3: and it gives you a good indication, like if people
Speaker 3: would as soon as you read the introduction, because just
Speaker 3: when we were finishing the book, it was with Robert Kraft,
Speaker 3: New England Patriot owner when he got caught, you know,
Speaker 3: with the girls in that spa in Florida, and the
Speaker 3: whole idea is, you know what will happen. He won't
Speaker 3: even end up in court. He wanted to w jail.
Speaker 3: You know, this multimillionaire billionaire will have a couple of
Speaker 3: thousand dollars flying at max. The girls that got caught
Speaker 3: that were working in the spa all get convicted, sent
Speaker 3: back to China or where were they from. Most of
Speaker 3: them were from China, and then they have a tainted
Speaker 3: name because of what they got caught doing back home,
Speaker 3: and so it's ruined their reputation. And then the owner
Speaker 3: of the spa happens to have nineteen other spas servicing
Speaker 3: in the US. And I can't say I know they're
Speaker 3: doing the same thing without being sued, but I could
Speaker 3: suggest it, you know, And that's the whole problems. So
Speaker 3: what we're saying is we're saying the people that were
Speaker 3: actually brought over to the country being told, oh, you're
Speaker 3: going to be working in a spa in the US
Speaker 3: and even get a green card and work and become
Speaker 3: an American, actually get thrown ten to a room with
Speaker 3: a hot plate and forced to give sexual favors to
Speaker 3: people for nothing because they're told they have to work
Speaker 3: it off because they owe fifty thousand dollars or some
Speaker 3: huge number for them being brought into the country. So
Speaker 3: they do this for years, and then if they do
Speaker 3: get caught, they get sent back home with a bad record,
Speaker 3: and everyone else that's running it continues to life normal,
Speaker 3: and you know, they can get a two thousand dollars fine,
Speaker 3: not a whole lot of money to someone with that
Speaker 3: kind of money. So we're not ending this. It's just
Speaker 3: kind of going on and on, and not enough is
Speaker 3: being done. I think that's the biggest concern I have,
Speaker 3: and it's the biggest thing that the book is trying
Speaker 3: to I mean, I hope it leaves someone when you
Speaker 3: read it. When you come at the end of the book,
Speaker 3: I hope you realize that all of this is happening
Speaker 3: around us in twenty nineteen today, and the people that
Speaker 3: are doing this to our kids and other people are
Speaker 3: really getting away scott free and they're making money.
Speaker 8: Yeah. You talk about even more disturbing trend is in
Speaker 8: the Middle East and North Africa what you call the
Speaker 8: Mena Region or the Mena Region population of a three
Speaker 8: hundred and eighty million. They have laws against human trafficking,
Speaker 8: but no enforcement whatsoever. And the biggest concern, of course
Speaker 8: is the child trafficking. Sixty two percent of victims there
Speaker 8: are children, most are Asians, Sahara Africans, and thirty five
Speaker 8: percent of females traffic mainly for labor. We haven't talked
Speaker 8: about labor and how extensive that is, that labor slavery.
Speaker 8: Tell us about just how that works.
Speaker 3: Well, the forced labor, you know, this one, this one
Speaker 3: is really really gets me because you know, we have
Speaker 3: we have a government in the less that is really
Speaker 3: focused on you know, homeland security and immigration and all
Speaker 3: this stuff, and they're talking about forced labor and you know,
Speaker 3: all you hear all these stories, but the government in
Speaker 3: the United States and all of the people in the
Speaker 3: immigration detention centers, like the two hundred centers that are
Speaker 3: there and more than what forty eight fifty thousand people
Speaker 3: are now held there. Two thirds of those places are
Speaker 3: run by private company these so they have contracts with
Speaker 3: our federal government to run these facilities. And of course
Speaker 3: a lot of attention has been brought on, but it's
Speaker 3: more political. You see Democrats talking, you know, kids in
Speaker 3: cages and no toilet paper and food, and then you've
Speaker 3: got the other side saying, well, they've they're here illegally.
Speaker 3: You kind of got this battle going for politicier. But
Speaker 3: under that, these two companies, with the current administration, they
Speaker 3: made two point eight billion dollars to run these to
Speaker 3: detention centers with you know, fifty two thousand beds, even
Speaker 3: though they probably have more people in there. So you've
Speaker 3: got these detention centers where you've got these people that
Speaker 3: are here, perhaps some wide, some of them are waiting
Speaker 3: for their hearing and some are illegal. I guess it's
Speaker 3: kind of a mix. And then they're then they're told
Speaker 3: that they have to work. So even though the American
Speaker 3: prison labor system abolished the whole idea of prisoners having
Speaker 3: to work, what they're doing is they're telling them that
Speaker 3: we'll give you a dollar a day in compensation for
Speaker 3: each day you work. So you have to volunteer. None
Speaker 3: of those people are convicted, so you're getting paid a
Speaker 3: dollar a day, and then they're taking them out to
Speaker 3: farms in different places and working them full time like
Speaker 3: a normal person would work for let's say fifteen dollars
Speaker 3: an hour. So these companies are paying them to do
Speaker 3: this and they're only having to pay there are people
Speaker 3: a dollar a day. They made over over what over
Speaker 3: two billion dollars I believe it was from this type
Speaker 3: of labor. So when you're when your federal government is
Speaker 3: really involved in trafficking labor, the attention doesn't really get
Speaker 3: focused on anybody else doing it. So it's going on
Speaker 3: all sorts of levels in the country. So it's a
Speaker 3: real mess, but you can't I think my point is
Speaker 3: that if your federal government is doing it, then then
Speaker 3: white punished people that are doing it that are not
Speaker 3: part of the government, Like it doesn't make sense. We
Speaker 3: have to come up with a better solution to this because,
Speaker 3: you know, because what's going on now when you talk
Speaker 3: about the in the States, other companies, there's places that
Speaker 3: will get illegals and force them to work on ranches
Speaker 3: and picking fruits and servitude. You know, servicing and made
Speaker 3: work and all that sort of stuff, and a lot
Speaker 3: of them get paid almost nothing, if they get paid
Speaker 3: at all, and they have a terrible living conditions, and
Speaker 3: they're really they're really kept. They're just slave labor. It's
Speaker 3: like the modern day slave is what it is is.
Speaker 3: But like I said, you've got a government in the
Speaker 3: same business.
Speaker 8: You right, even more disturbing though we talk about labor
Speaker 8: or forced trafficking, recruiting child soldiers and if that isn't
Speaker 8: bad enough, giving sex slaves to them for recruitment rewards.
Speaker 8: And that's how bad it can be in other countries, you're.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's you know, more so than in the US. Yeah,
Speaker 3: well with the military and the military institement goes on
Speaker 3: a lot in other countries, more so than in North America.
Speaker 3: But you know, they're they're taking boys as young as twelve,
Speaker 3: and they really get stolen and forced into this, and
Speaker 3: sometimes the parents want them to, sometimes they make them.
Speaker 3: And some of the stories I have in here, you
Speaker 3: see that where it can go either way. You know,
Speaker 3: someone's forced into it, or someone's gone missing and they've
Speaker 3: been taken. And actually it's pretty brutal when it goes
Speaker 3: through some of these stories, especially that you should you know,
Speaker 3: when they're in the village and all the all just
Speaker 3: some of the details you get from him and how
Speaker 3: he was just going out looking for work with his
Speaker 3: talent and then all of a sudden becomes forced into
Speaker 3: this military where he's supposed to be killing and burning
Speaker 3: people like it just you have to I can't, I
Speaker 3: can't summarize that. You really have to read that from
Speaker 3: that perspective. Now, that's definitely something you're going to You
Speaker 3: don't see so much in the US, this kind of
Speaker 3: thing going on, but you see it more in the
Speaker 3: Third world countries. Definitely an eye opener.
Speaker 8: You talk about too, the practical ways in reality how
Speaker 8: these guys avoid the conviction, but also how some of
Speaker 8: these women girls are treated, and you say they're treated
Speaker 8: as illegal immigrants and deported. So even when sometimes they
Speaker 8: get to authorities, even if they were like you're right
Speaker 8: that the police wouldn't just inform the traffickers of what
Speaker 8: goes on and scuttle the entire case. That sometimes the
Speaker 8: country is very not interested in addressing this issue, and
Speaker 8: so they deport them, don't they.
Speaker 3: Oh, quite often, quite often, and the one immigration visa
Speaker 3: that we have that's available to people that were forced
Speaker 3: into this sort of labor or sex sort of trade
Speaker 3: is limited to how many they give out, and since
Speaker 3: they've been doing it, not even half of them have
Speaker 3: been given out. It's it's almost like a h it's
Speaker 3: almost like they are just for show. They don't actually
Speaker 3: use it, and nobody tries to get help for these
Speaker 3: people that have been victimized. They are forced into this
Speaker 3: and then treat it terribly, left in jail, and then
Speaker 3: sent back home if they come from another country, and
Speaker 3: for them to get that T one visa, it's almost impossible.
Speaker 3: It just doesn't happen. And the stats show you've had.
Speaker 3: It's just a terrible it's a vicious circle, and the
Speaker 3: people that are being used don't get help by the
Speaker 3: lego system. All the legal system does appear right now
Speaker 3: in the US R Canada is it's get them out
Speaker 3: of the situation and then send them that to their country,
Speaker 3: and they're not in any better situation. They've got a
Speaker 3: terrible record and they've been through an awful ordeal that
Speaker 3: will stay with them the rest of their life. And
Speaker 3: when they go home, of course, they're shunned. They're not
Speaker 3: they're not supported or helped, and people don't treat them
Speaker 3: while people just own them. It's just it's just a
Speaker 3: vicious circle going around and around, and it's it's not
Speaker 3: a good outcome. We're not helping the victims in this case.
Speaker 8: Before we talk about what kind of help and who
Speaker 8: might possibly be helping them. This is something I didn't know.
Speaker 8: And you provide a photo tell us about the importance
Speaker 8: and the significance of tattoos.
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, you know, and that was kind of I
Speaker 3: think a lot of people don't realize that's what you know.
Speaker 3: That's why it's kind of the book. We tried to
Speaker 3: make sure we include it as much as we could,
Speaker 3: but with the amount of material we had without getting
Speaker 3: too detailed, but enough that you can realize, wow, the
Speaker 3: truths and what's really going on. And in that were
Speaker 3: you're talking about the tattoos, they're actually finding survivors of
Speaker 3: sex traffic work and this in the particular case we
Speaker 3: talk about is in Wisconsin, and and it's a whole
Speaker 3: new way of exploiting. So they're actually branding them with tattoos.
Speaker 3: And yeah, we've included I believe we have one or
Speaker 3: two pictures and it looks like a barcode, Like it's
Speaker 3: something you would buy in the groceries when you go
Speaker 3: pick up your groceries, you know the boxes and the
Speaker 3: cans and all that, and have those little bar codes
Speaker 3: and they can just scan them and the price comes
Speaker 3: up and you pay. So that's what they're looking like.
Speaker 3: And they're doing that, and it seems to be they're
Speaker 3: doing it on women and children victims, and it seems
Speaker 3: to be all sex trafficking so far, I haven't we
Speaker 3: didn't come across anything or the FPI reports it's only
Speaker 3: in commercial sex trafficking. So I think they had what
Speaker 3: somewhere around thirty four to fifty nine in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3: So yeah, anyway, it's just you got a picture of
Speaker 3: it in the book. You'll see there's actually a few
Speaker 3: different ones, and they're mainly done on the wrist, or
Speaker 3: they're done them on the back part, the lower part
Speaker 3: of the neck.
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Speaker 8: You mentioned how people could be helped, what is going on?
Speaker 8: And I mentioned Polaris and the Blue Campaign. You also
Speaker 8: include the United Let me see what's the U N
Speaker 8: O D I believe it is, and some of the
Speaker 8: drafts of the Anti Human trafficking legislation. Some inroads in Armenia, Lebanon,
Speaker 8: South Africa actually also allowed to train police departments in
Speaker 8: Burkina Faso, in Ghana, Nigeria, Togo, Ukraine, and South Africa.
Speaker 8: And then they're also training border guards, prison police officers,
Speaker 8: prosecutors and judges in some of those countries again including Laos, Moldivia, Nigeria, Ukraine.
Speaker 8: So there is you have to admit, there is some
Speaker 8: realization even though you have a pessimistic outcome, this isn't
Speaker 8: going away. It's going to get worse. There is some
Speaker 8: initiatives to try to address this. Aren't there that you
Speaker 8: include in the book?
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, you know, we've included that the hotline as
Speaker 3: well human trafficking, and we've given we've given tips or
Speaker 3: things to look for how to recognize and report human trafficking.
Speaker 3: There's a whole chapter in there about that because it's
Speaker 3: it's it's the key thing in solving this. I think
Speaker 3: I'm pasistic mainly because the legal system has done nothing
Speaker 3: to really remedy it is, and it's not really set
Speaker 3: up to help the victims, and and it's proven that
Speaker 3: over and over again, and it's still to this day,
Speaker 3: and and the thing is the human trafficking is getting
Speaker 3: worse in all areas, whether it's sexual, labor or or
Speaker 3: body parts, and this is continuing and there doesn't seem
Speaker 3: to be enough awareness of it people, the average person.
Speaker 3: Could You can still go up and say have you
Speaker 3: heard about trafficking? And they'll just sort of look at you,
Speaker 3: you know, And and they're not They're not going out
Speaker 3: looking for it. They're not seeing it in their spas,
Speaker 3: they're not looking to see if someone who is being
Speaker 3: mistreated in a restaurant or anything like that. We're just
Speaker 3: not really focused or paying attention to it. So I
Speaker 3: think that's my issue with it, and that's the more
Speaker 3: of the meaning of the book. The nonprofit organizations like
Speaker 3: Polarios and things like that, and even WHO the World
Speaker 3: Health Organization only sort of have so much impact in
Speaker 3: the country and in the world. They do a lot
Speaker 3: of promoting and talking about it and the Blue Month
Speaker 3: and all that stuff. But still, I bet you if
Speaker 3: you asked almost everyone around you and everyone you know,
Speaker 3: if they knew that January was Blue Month and it
Speaker 3: was about human trafficking and all that, they wouldn't have
Speaker 3: a clue. And that's kind of my my downside of this.
Speaker 3: I want to see people get involved, wake up, and
Speaker 3: get on it, and think about it on a daily basis,
Speaker 3: because happening around us all the time, and we need
Speaker 3: to start we're responsible for each other and we need
Speaker 3: to start helping each other through these things. And I
Speaker 3: like to see the laws go further, and I like
Speaker 3: to see more of this training. It shouldn't just be
Speaker 3: in a couple of states, or a couple of border
Speaker 3: guards or a couple of groups. It should be something
Speaker 3: that we're all paying attention to and we're all thinking about,
Speaker 3: and we're training all of our police, all of our hospitals,
Speaker 3: all of our service people should be aware of this
Speaker 3: because that's the only way we're going to get a
Speaker 3: handle on it.
Speaker 10: Right.
Speaker 8: You talk about getting a handle Immigration and Customs Enforcement
Speaker 8: ICE in twenty and sixteen, they arrested three hundred and
Speaker 8: twenty eleven nine hundred and thirty eight twenty sixteen, and
Speaker 8: then almost two thousand went on, almost two thousand convictions
Speaker 8: but or pardon me, arrests, but you put the disturbing number.
Speaker 8: Only half have been convicted out of those two thousands.
Speaker 8: And then you talk about you know, lenient sentences, But
Speaker 8: that's incredible lack of conviction, isn't it.
Speaker 3: It's terrible, It's terrible, And I put I've put a
Speaker 3: few samples of stories from ICE on victims, and I
Speaker 3: think that's really important too. So that's kind of what
Speaker 3: it's kind of think. The whole driving thing for me
Speaker 3: is you've got Homeland security and ICE that's should be
Speaker 3: the most aware, it should be on top of it
Speaker 3: the most. And I'm not trying to give them grief
Speaker 3: or put them down. I respect what they do, but
Speaker 3: that only half actually anything comes from it's it's it's terrible.
Speaker 3: It's terrible that these things are happening to so many
Speaker 3: of the young and helpless and even poor people. That
Speaker 3: just I think what it does is it drives you nuts.
Speaker 3: When you go through this and see all these stories
Speaker 3: and I'm only scratching the service with his book, you
Speaker 3: will see how many people and young people so young
Speaker 3: have been put through this ordeal and they've survived, and
Speaker 3: there's really no there's no support for them, very little support,
Speaker 3: and there's really no justice for them either because we're
Speaker 3: just not convicting them. You know, even when ICE can't
Speaker 3: get the job done. You know that we have to
Speaker 3: be doing something.
Speaker 8: You also talk about in Ontario and Canada sixty five
Speaker 8: percent of all the human trafficking cases there and the
Speaker 8: biggest province in Canada conviction rate seven percent. Talk about
Speaker 8: impunity the big problem, and you also write about forty
Speaker 8: percent of countries few or no convictions over the last
Speaker 8: ten years. I think that's even more disturbing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and that's I think I think that's kind
Speaker 3: of you know, when you start getting through you know,
Speaker 3: it's like a story. You know, you come out and
Speaker 3: you hear a story and you're you're going through it,
Speaker 3: and something bad happens, and then you know you want
Speaker 3: that happy ending. And the problem is in this case,
Speaker 3: you start reading these numbers and looking at the facts
Speaker 3: and you start realizing that there's no happy ending here.
Speaker 3: There's not even a band aid going on here. It's
Speaker 3: just it's just it's really wow, it's all you can say.
Speaker 3: You know, you keep finding out more and more and
Speaker 3: you start realizing it, Wow, there's just there's just nothing
Speaker 3: going on, Like we're letting all this happen, and it's
Speaker 3: becoming bigger and there's people that are getting into this business,
Speaker 3: so to speak, and they're doing it because there's really
Speaker 3: no there's nothing, there's no fight back. You know, you've
Speaker 3: got better odds of running a trafficking business and getting
Speaker 3: through it not not convicted or even prosecuted, and making
Speaker 3: lots of money. And then you do most crime rings
Speaker 3: right now, you know, drugs or it's just it's just
Speaker 3: crazy and we're talking about human beings. Human beings is
Speaker 3: the product, and yeah, it's just you know, and that's
Speaker 3: kind of I think the the hard thing because this,
Speaker 3: this should actually be focused news. This should be the
Speaker 3: number one topic on the news more than it is not.
Speaker 3: Not the stuff they talk about now about you know, well,
Speaker 3: you know, you turn on the news, you see and
Speaker 3: very seldom to see you, very seldom to see the
Speaker 3: story about this, and if you do, it's it's halfway
Speaker 3: through the news and it's just that, oh, police picked up,
Speaker 3: you know, two people that were trafficking fourteen in some
Speaker 3: sort of ring, and you might not hear about it
Speaker 3: again because it probably won't go to court. If it does,
Speaker 3: it doesn't get conviction, it doesn't get any any any
Speaker 3: any legs. So that that's kind of what I'm what
Speaker 3: I hope I get across in.
Speaker 8: This book, do you think that I guess with the
Speaker 8: arrest of Epstein and R Kelly with new charges even
Speaker 8: though he I've charges brought up from previously and then
Speaker 8: I don't know if we recharging him. But what my
Speaker 8: point is is that the attitudal change in society, it
Speaker 8: seems kind of quickly or overnight, maybe because it's celebrity driven.
Speaker 8: And you talk about Kim Kardashian trying to help out
Speaker 8: someone that was convicted for shooting her what other people
Speaker 8: would call a pimp. Do you think the me too
Speaker 8: movement is maybe some cause for optimism in this and
Speaker 8: then those same people that created that quickly that scidal
Speaker 8: attitudal change might apply that energy to something like that.
Speaker 8: As if someone like Kim Kardashian is weighing in.
Speaker 3: On the issue, I'm not that excited about it. You know,
Speaker 3: the whole Epstein thing again, because how they how it's marketed.
Speaker 3: It's marketed about politics. The majority of the stories in
Speaker 3: all the networks, what are they talking about. They're talking
Speaker 3: about who is with you know, you know, everything you
Speaker 3: get it's about, Oh, here's a picture of Bill Clinton
Speaker 3: with them, Here's a picture of Donald Trump. They're best friends.
Speaker 3: It's all political and they want to use it again
Speaker 3: see each other, and we're not again, that's all you've
Speaker 3: heard about, and that's all that That's what they're making it.
Speaker 3: They're not making it about the actual victims. We're not
Speaker 3: focused in on the people that were hurt by this,
Speaker 3: or focused in on, oh, you know, the whole half
Speaker 3: of the country, you know, throwing famous Democrats with him,
Speaker 3: and then you've got half the country throwing uh, famous
Speaker 3: Republicans And it's like, that's really not what it's about.
Speaker 3: This man had done some awful things and he's been
Speaker 3: accused of some awful things, but they're not talking about
Speaker 3: the things he did and the victims and how what
Speaker 3: should be changed and how did he, you know, get
Speaker 3: away with it for years and stuff other than you
Speaker 3: get a blame you know of someone that oh he
Speaker 3: give him a light sentence because he's a Republican or
Speaker 3: is you know, it's it's just I just mean, the
Speaker 3: focus is somewhere else. You talk to anybody about, you know,
Speaker 3: someone I was just interviewed for the Law Network in
Speaker 3: the last week about this book, and that was their focus.
Speaker 3: What do you think it seems going to get what
Speaker 3: do you nobody cares about what's really going on in
Speaker 3: the heart of what he's doing, the business he was running,
Speaker 3: and the people that he hurt, and where are they
Speaker 3: now and what's happened to them and what are we
Speaker 3: going to do about that? And how do we make
Speaker 3: it so this doesn't go on? You know? That's yeah.
Speaker 3: So I'm you know, I'm not as excited about it,
Speaker 3: I guess as I as a lot of people might be.
Speaker 3: But because I really don't care if Trump and Clinton
Speaker 3: were on the plane with them. I mean, I care,
Speaker 3: but that my focus is on. It's just that what
Speaker 3: he was doing to these people and what should happen
Speaker 3: and how do we fix this and how do we
Speaker 3: help those people?
Speaker 8: You know, doesn't doesn't The story, though, demonstrate Clinton, both
Speaker 8: Clinton and among other people. But but Clinton and Trump
Speaker 8: fiercely geometrically opposed, at least from that before the election
Speaker 8: and on. They represent two different things. They present two
Speaker 8: completely different views, and yet they both were friends with
Speaker 8: this guy. And this is well known. I mean, we've
Speaker 8: been hearing these rumors for years. This is not like
Speaker 8: a oh geez, what a surprise. So it seems to
Speaker 8: be indicative of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know, he's a big you know, it
Speaker 3: was just like the Harvey Weinstein or you know, it's
Speaker 3: just these people have a lot of power, They have
Speaker 3: a lot of money and a lot of influence. So
Speaker 3: when it comes to elections, they call on these people,
Speaker 3: they hang out with these people, they're friends with these people,
Speaker 3: they party with them, they fly to the island, they
Speaker 3: do all these things because it's about getting elected, and
Speaker 3: it's about getting money from these people and getting support
Speaker 3: because someone endorses you all of their fans, you know,
Speaker 3: So it's all kind of a and he's he was
Speaker 3: a big power with a lot of money and a
Speaker 3: lot of influence as long as a lot of these
Speaker 3: people that are being taken down are in that situation.
Speaker 3: So it's a perfect bad fellow, if you will, that
Speaker 3: bad wording, but of politician, you know, you want these
Speaker 3: especially in the US, because lobbying is really the basis
Speaker 3: of an American political system. So that's how it works.
Speaker 3: And so unfortunately, we'll probably find all sorts of ties
Speaker 3: to him and other rich people that have done all
Speaker 3: sorts of bad things. And I don't really blame either
Speaker 3: one of them because I think they're both doing it
Speaker 3: for the same reason. You know, I don't know if
Speaker 3: they were involved. I don't think we can tell at
Speaker 3: this point. But it should be more about what kind
Speaker 3: of a situation is drawn from rich people like this
Speaker 3: that do these things, and what kind of laws you're
Speaker 3: there to vent it, and what kind of what kind
Speaker 3: of system do we have set up for these victims?
Speaker 3: Where can they go, who can they call, who's going
Speaker 3: to help them? How can they get out of these situations?
Speaker 3: We need to be looking at that more than you know,
Speaker 3: what other rich people are in there. I mean, if
Speaker 3: they were involved, they should be taken down too. If
Speaker 3: they're just friends and can't do much about that, but
Speaker 3: you know, so we need to be focusing really on
Speaker 3: the crime and fixing the crime, because at this point,
Speaker 3: whatever he did do, it's kind of past tense. Now
Speaker 3: he's done it and we can't go back and change it.
Speaker 3: But we can we can look at that and make
Speaker 3: everyone aware of what he was doing and to who
Speaker 3: he was doing. Who are the victims, how many people
Speaker 3: did he get and where did he get them from?
Speaker 3: And how come they were not why how come they
Speaker 3: never came forward, and how come none of their families,
Speaker 3: and like, we have to know more about really what
Speaker 3: goes on in these things. So I hope that's where
Speaker 3: it goes, but so far it hasn't really done that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's a thing that you write about that allude
Speaker 8: to that this is the most the dangerous world of
Speaker 8: human trafficking. But only if we extrapolate from this information
Speaker 8: and say, how dangerous can it be in another five
Speaker 8: or ten years with these kinds of unscrupulous beyond I
Speaker 8: mean unscrupulous is an understatement incredibly that what will these
Speaker 8: people do? What will they resort to? Like you say,
Speaker 8: when criminal organizations now are using the profits of child sex, slavery,
Speaker 8: and other types of human trafficking to incredible profits, And
Speaker 8: if that's the case, and it is the case, then
Speaker 8: you can see nothing but a growing trend towards more
Speaker 8: and more. And if our imaginations are blown by the
Speaker 8: information that's in your book, and you were blown away
Speaker 8: by the information you uncovered from the victim stories that
Speaker 8: you include in the book, like you say, I share
Speaker 8: your lack of optimism that we will really be able
Speaker 8: to address something that's incredibly important to address.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can only hope for the best, you know,
Speaker 3: and even the er Kelly thing, you know, when you
Speaker 3: talk about that, it's not really I mean, I don't
Speaker 3: know the depths of it, but a lot of what
Speaker 3: he did was having sex with underage girls and moving
Speaker 3: them across state lines, which is a bad thing. But
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's going to really help bring
Speaker 3: attention to trafficking per se and what's going on, like
Speaker 3: in the book, in the cases we covered about people
Speaker 3: being held and forced to work, are half sex, are
Speaker 3: taken their body, you know, people like that. It's what
Speaker 3: I want to get people aware of, not so much
Speaker 3: the r Kelly thing, but that that's a concern too.
Speaker 3: I'm not you know, saying it's okay. It's just if
Speaker 3: not the same type of the trafficking that was going
Speaker 3: on that we covered.
Speaker 8: I just see that if law enforcement and law enforcement
Speaker 8: and prosecutors in other countries are unable for various reasons,
Speaker 8: and there's a myriad of reasons why some countries would
Speaker 8: be reluctant, hesitant, less likely to want to prosecute because
Speaker 8: of the economies of those countries and the governments that
Speaker 8: are in h and the attitude that seems to be
Speaker 8: if people don't care so much because they think it's
Speaker 8: just a case of prostitution. If you include a story
Speaker 8: in your book about a young girl that has a
Speaker 8: boyfriend and then she takes drugs or he introduces her,
Speaker 8: a lot of people again would not be as the
Speaker 8: victim is not as sympathetic as other victims, and as
Speaker 8: we know in true crime, and you know that it
Speaker 8: seems to be we have to have this clear cut, virginal,
Speaker 8: pure white beyond a very very innocent victim for us
Speaker 8: to be able to relate. And so I find it.
Speaker 8: It's interesting but disturbing. But I hope that through awareness
Speaker 8: like this book and then a lot of the stories
Speaker 8: about human trafficking, that it will be a ground swell
Speaker 8: from society itself to look at this the right way,
Speaker 8: not to look at the myths or the misperceptions, and
Speaker 8: to be able to look at this and then take
Speaker 8: some sort of action.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And I hope that's where it comes to.
Speaker 3: And I hope that there's been a lot of attention
Speaker 3: on the book and a lot of people talking, and
Speaker 3: it's done quite well, and I hope that it continues.
Speaker 3: I hope people passing on tell other people and talk
Speaker 3: about it, and because that's the only way we're going
Speaker 3: to stop it, the only way we're going to make
Speaker 3: any changes if we all get on board. Right.
Speaker 8: Well, Ellen, I want to thank you very much for
Speaker 8: coming on and talking about in chains, the dangerous world
Speaker 8: of human trafficking. It's been very, very enlightening. Thank you
Speaker 8: very much, Alan Warren for this interview.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for having me, and thank you for
Speaker 3: taking on this subject.
Speaker 8: It's important now for those people that might want to
Speaker 8: take a look and maybe listen to your House of Mystery,
Speaker 8: tell us a little bit about websites and where they
Speaker 8: might take a look at your books. Tell us about
Speaker 8: that information.
Speaker 3: Well, the House of Mystery is on ca c A
Speaker 3: A one oh six point five FM in Los Angeles,
Speaker 3: Palm Springs and Riverside. And you can go to the
Speaker 3: House of Mystery dot com of course to get any
Speaker 3: of the old shows on podcasts, and of course casea
Speaker 3: itself if you want to listen to it live. And
Speaker 3: my own books of course, alanar Warren dot com. And
Speaker 3: they're at Amazon and Barnes and Noble and in Canada
Speaker 3: now they're in three chapters now, so chapters Intego and
Speaker 3: I guess hopefully even more.
Speaker 8: Absolutely well, thank you very much, Alan, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 8: You have a great night. Hope to speak to you again,
Speaker 8: so good night.
Speaker 10: Thank you, good night boy.
Speaker 3: Hello.
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