WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.280 --> 00:00:03.680 Okay, we're life. Hi, this is William Ramsey. Welcome to 2 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:06.360 William Ramsey investigates on today's show of a very special guest. 3 00:00:06.360 --> 00:00:08.880 His name is Michael Kaplan's last name is spelled cap 4 00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:12.960 la n and he's just finished an excellent documentary which 5 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:15.960 I watched yesterday. The title of the documentary is All 6 00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:18.519 in the Movie and it will be out in two 7 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:22.679 days October first, twenty twenty one. People go check that out. 8 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:26.120 But mister Kaplan is an independent film director, producer, and teacher. 9 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:30.559 The film before this was titled A Magical Vision, which 10 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:34.880 is a feature length documentary that spotlights Eugene Berger, a 11 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:37.240 magician and greu of the magical arts, and it has 12 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:39.679 been shown in festivals from Chicago to Indian won an 13 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:43.759 audience award at the Spirit Enlightened Film Festival. He's also 14 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:47.320 directed Stones from the Soil, documentary about his father that 15 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:50.280 showed on National PBS in two thousand and five. He's 16 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:54.079 an associate professor in the Cinema, Art and Science Department 17 00:00:54.119 --> 00:00:58.560 at Columbia College in Chicago. And this movie, the background 18 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:00.920 really is Chicago. It's almost part of the story. Is 19 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:05.000 this interesting part of the city that Algren wrote about 20 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:08.400 and lived in. But director Michael Kaplan can talk more 21 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:10.159 about that. So, Michael Kaplan, are you there. 22 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:12.319 Yes, I am good to talk to you. 23 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:16.280 William Good. Great to have you. Delighted that you agreed 24 00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:18.640 to the interview. Really an interesting topic. Can you talk 25 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:20.560 a little bit about your background? And yeah, you became 26 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:24.560 interested in the subject of Algren and what led you 27 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:27.159 to start the production on this documentary. 28 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:32.799 Well, I've been making films and videos for probably about 29 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:38.640 twenty five years now, and over the last twenty years 30 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:44.200 I really focused on documentaries. And you mentioned two of 31 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:51.439 my previous documentaries, and I was really in the midst 32 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:55.400 of finishing up my previous documentary about Eugene Berger, the Magician, 33 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:01.560 when I met the photographer Archhay at a gallery opening 34 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:05.799 in Chicago, and Art at that time was a young, 35 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:10.680 spry eighty seven years old, and Art was a real trip. 36 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.439 He was a real character, originally from Brooklyn and a 37 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:18.520 little short fire plug of a guy who had traveled 38 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:23.319 all over the world taking pictures of everybody from presidents 39 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:28.479 to movie stars. But what I knew him as was 40 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:33.039 the photographer of Nelson Algren. Growing up in Chicago, Nelson 41 00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:36.360 Algren was just someone that you knew about who wrote 42 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:39.599 about the people at the bottom of the social spectrum. 43 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:43.439 And if you had seen a photograph of Algren, you 44 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:46.759 had seen Archase work because he was pretty much the 45 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:52.479 dominant photographer of Algren. And so when I met him, 46 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:56.159 I just said, well, mister Shay, I've always loved your 47 00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:01.159 work about Nelson Algren. And he said, what do you do? 48 00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:03.879 I told him, and he said, well, you should. You 49 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:07.879 should do a documentary about Nelson Algren. And I was 50 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:10.520 kind of shocked that no one had at that point. 51 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:15.000 And something I always tell my students is be careful 52 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:17.840 what you say yes to because I said yes, and 53 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:22.960 then you know, many years later, we finally ended up 54 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:25.520 with this documentary about Nelson Algren. 55 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:28.199 And for people who may not know, can you just 56 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:31.360 give a brief background of Nelson Algren and kind of 57 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:33.639 what led him to writing and kind of what he 58 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:34.680 wrote about. 59 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:38.680 Well. Nelson Algren was born in Detroit but grew up 60 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:42.479 in Chicago. His family moved when he was at a 61 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:47.240 pretty young age, and he grew up something also I 62 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:49.800 did not know on the about two blocks away from 63 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:53.199 where I live on the northwest side of Chicago, and 64 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:58.080 his father was working class, he was a car mechanic, 65 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:04.919 and all Grinn grew up thinking that he would be 66 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.840 a journalist. That's what he wanted to do. So he 67 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:12.000 went to the University of Illinois in Chicago and he 68 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:15.639 was in the midst of getting his degree to be 69 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:21.199 a journalist when the depression hit, and that really, for 70 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:23.639 him and for a lot of people, just changed everything 71 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.800 about his life. He ended up going on the road, 72 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:32.199 taking you know, kind of bumming around the country, ended 73 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:35.959 up in Texas, ended up getting arrested for stealing a 74 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:40.560 typewriter while he was in Texas. And when he came 75 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:47.000 back to Chicago, he had already started writing. And simultaneously 76 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:51.600 the WPA had been formed, and one of the programs 77 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:56.800 they had was it basically supported writers and other artists 78 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:01.800 to communicate what was going on around the country to 79 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:05.680 the rest of the country. There's actually a really great 80 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:08.959 book that just came out about that program because it 81 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:12.399 really changed the lives of so many people, people like 82 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:17.199 Richard Wright and Studs Turkle and Algren was one of 83 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:22.560 those people, and so was at that point in the 84 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:27.160 late thirties early forties that he started writing about the 85 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:31.600 people who society had left behind the people who were 86 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:37.839 the addicts, the drunks, the sex workers, the people that 87 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:41.319 you know, didn't really get a second look from society. 88 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:45.519 So that was really what put him into that path 89 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.480 of writing about that part of society. 90 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:50.879 Right, So he kind of saw the other side that 91 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:53.600 maybe not as many people thought were as glamorous, but 92 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:55.720 he seemed to really mix with those people as well. 93 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:57.720 Would you agree with that, Oh, my gosh. 94 00:05:57.839 --> 00:05:58.160 Yeah. 95 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:01.399 He lived in the neighborhood wicker Park, which is now 96 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:06.160 a totally kind of gentrified, very nice area, but at 97 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:09.120 the time it was kind of a slum and he 98 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:14.560 lived there in a little one room apartment. He had 99 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:16.319 to go to the y m c A To take 100 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:19.399 a shower, you know. I mean he was living really 101 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:23.800 small and the people he wrote about were the people 102 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:28.360 on his street. So he was really he had a 103 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:32.959 commitment to that telling those stories and telling him from 104 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:35.199 close up, not just from afar. 105 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:37.839 And he was kind of that sensibility he got. He 106 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:40.800 got pinched for stealing a typewriter in Texas. He was 107 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:43.959 interested in selling stuff on the black market while he 108 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:46.680 was in the ward World War two, so he kind 109 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.560 of seemed a little scrapy, like he was one of 110 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:51.920 those people, you know, just trying to get by the 111 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:55.199 people that he wrote about. Really, can you talk about 112 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.279 how he kind of made it in the literary world, 113 00:06:57.319 --> 00:06:59.639 what his book was, and how he kind of made 114 00:06:59.639 --> 00:06:59.959 his mark. 115 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.879 Well, he had written several books. He had written a 116 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:10.560 novel somewhere, Someone in Boots, which he later just kind 117 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:13.439 of left off his list. He he kind of disavowed it. 118 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:21.879 But then he went on to really the first novel 119 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:25.639 a note was called Never Come Morning, and it was 120 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:29.160 in the early forties, and it was really set during 121 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:34.560 in that that world that I've been talking about, the 122 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:39.160 world around him and of the people who were the dispossessed. 123 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:43.680 After that, he wrote a collection of short stories called 124 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:47.680 The Neon Wilderness, which just its name, you know, kind 125 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:52.079 of tells you so much about what the big cities 126 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:57.399 were becoming in the US after World War Two. This 127 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:01.079 this place, you know of of kind of glamour, but 128 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:04.879 you know, also a place where there were lots of 129 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:09.160 people who were not getting the benefit of what was 130 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:13.879 starting to happen in the US. And it was really sorry, 131 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:14.839 go ahead, no. 132 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:17.319 I was just gonna say. He was very sensitive to 133 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:21.480 kind of the class situation where there was definitely an 134 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:25.279 under dispossessed. Yeah, people who were definitely he says, I 135 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.680 think the back of the of the billboard, the people 136 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:29.879 who lived behind the bill. 137 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:33.120 Right, correct. Correct. And it was after that that he 138 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:37.440 wrote what most people consider is Magnus Opus, which was 139 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:41.759 a Man with a Golden Arm, which later got made 140 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:45.759 into a movie with Frank Sinatra and a Man with 141 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:49.559 a Golden Arm was, you know, a sprawling, five six 142 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:55.279 hundred page novel that really dug into this one character, 143 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:59.159 Frankie Machine, who had come out of World War Two 144 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:05.279 and was a morphine addict. He was also a drummer, 145 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:08.960 a jazz drummer, and he was also a dealer of cards. 146 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:12.279 He was a poker dealer, and so the idea of 147 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:14.840 the Man with the Golden Arm had a kind of 148 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:19.879 a two sided meaning because it was about someone who 149 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:23.679 was an addict but also someone who who played poker, 150 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:31.240 and that really catapulted him into the mainstream. The book 151 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:34.240 won the first National Book Award, which was in nineteen 152 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:40.960 fifty Eleanor Roosevelt awarded it to him, and he was 153 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:44.559 he was, all of a sudden he had something close 154 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:50.679 to a bestseller and that really made him for a while, 155 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:55.080 not for as long as you might think, made him 156 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:59.120 kind of a household name, someone that people knew and 157 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:05.399 would read and book clubs and was someone that was discussed, 158 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:06.519 you know, in the press. 159 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:09.679 And he was also kind of suppressed. Some people thought 160 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:12.519 he was a little bit too over the edge, right, 161 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:14.840 Like I think there was something the Polish Roman Catholic 162 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:17.679 Legion complained about his writing things like that, and he 163 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:20.480 wrote about Polish people, which I think is interesting too. 164 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:23.159 Yeah, I mean a lot of the neighborhood that he 165 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:30.960 lived in was Polish immigrants and the yes, the Roman 166 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:37.440 Catholic Church, the Polish Catholic I forgot community. They wrote 167 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:41.759 up against him. There were a lot of pushback later 168 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:45.320 on when he wrote Chicago's City on the Make, which 169 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:48.240 was kind of this love and hate letter to Chicago, 170 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.879 he got lots of pushback from the tourist industry. People 171 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:55.919 felt like he made Chicago look like not a really 172 00:10:56.200 --> 00:11:02.519 nice place, and so he he definitely was always kind 173 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:07.120 of fighting, you know, the power. And then later on 174 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:14.320 and it's not in the movie, but he the FBI 175 00:11:14.519 --> 00:11:18.440 actually kept a file on him and made it difficult 176 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:20.879 for him to travel for a while because he could 177 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.519 not get a passport, so he was he ran into 178 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:26.519 a lot of roadblocks. 179 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:29.039 Right, and so he had this kind of underground thing. 180 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:31.919 But he also because he came from there, you know, 181 00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:34.519 like there's a couple of people who were marked in 182 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:38.600 your film that his ear for their cadence, of their talk, 183 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:41.320 in the way that the locals in Chicago talked like 184 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:43.120 he had it down like that was part of his 185 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:45.639 realism or his authenticity, right. 186 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:50.120 Right, it was. It was very much you know, you know, 187 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:54.759 he wrote from the conversations that he had with the 188 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:58.200 people in the bars on the street. You know, these 189 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:02.960 were first hand accounts. In many ways, it was kind 190 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:08.320 of a predecessor to you know, the modern journalism, that 191 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:10.759 kind of the new journalism that came out in the 192 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:15.200 sixties with Hunter Thompson and Tom Wolfe. Where he was 193 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:19.600 he was in the story. He wasn't a character in 194 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.679 the story, but he was in the story in that 195 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:27.679 this was something that he wrote from hundreds of hours 196 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.559 of being in this community and talking to people and 197 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:35.320 getting the stories. So when he wrote about the people, 198 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.120 he was not a tourist, as we say, coming in 199 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:41.960 and just kind of spending a couple of weeks and 200 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:44.519 you know, getting all this research and then going home. 201 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:50.200 You know he did, you know he this was his life, 202 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:53.120 you know, twenty four hours a day, three sixty five 203 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:54.519 days a week, right. 204 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:56.120 And he lived that. I think some one of the 205 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:59.080 persons in your film quoted he wasn't a voyeur. He 206 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:04.519 was among his people, horse betting, gambling, drinking, you know, 207 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:07.399 kind of living kind of a beat, beat writer's type 208 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:09.600 of life in Chicago. And it is interesting in the 209 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.679 film you have all these people from Chicago commenting on 210 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:16.639 Algren and what a cultural influence he was. So you 211 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:21.399 have Billy Corgan, William Freakin, the director of Invasion of 212 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:23.240 the Body Statues, I can't remember his name right now, 213 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:26.759 but like really interesting characters who talked about him from 214 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:27.480 their perspective. 215 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:31.360 Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah, absolutely, no, he 216 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:37.120 you know, he definitely was part of that you know community. 217 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:41.399 Rich I'm not Richard Kaufman, Philip Kaufman as the director 218 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:45.120 you're thinking of. Yeah, I mean I ran into people 219 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:49.039 who knew him when they were young, like Freaking and 220 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:51.879 Kaufman actually, you know, knew him and spent time with 221 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:55.039 him and did things with him when they were young 222 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:59.039 growing up in Chicago in the sixties. But you know, 223 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:06.720 the people who knew him knew about his commitment. And yes, 224 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:08.519 he also liked to have a good time. 225 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:08.840 You know. 226 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:13.399 He wasn't like the kind of prototypical beat writer in 227 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:15.159 that he didn't feel like he had to become a 228 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.399 drug user, you know, in order to write about addicts. 229 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:23.200 But he's certainly you know, he lived that life of 230 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:27.320 playing poker and hanging in the bars, and you know, 231 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:29.759 he liked the box and he liked to go see 232 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:34.639 boxing matches. He he would go to the horse, you know, 233 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:39.240 the to the racing track. He you know, he definitely 234 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:41.559 he knew how to have a good time, that was 235 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:46.480 for sure. But it wasn't about you know, just getting wasted, 236 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:50.000 you know, like you know Hunter Thompson, where he would 237 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.360 feel like he'd have to take twenty drugs before he 238 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:55.919 could write about anything. You know, Algren was he was 239 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.799 he was a mix of a journalist and a fiction 240 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.840 because he would take the journalistic research and then write 241 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:04.879 fiction about it. 242 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:08.720 Right, And you do mention like Hunter s Thompson quoted 243 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.919 from A Walk on the wild Side, really complimented Algren. 244 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:14.120 I thought that was a really interesting segment you had. 245 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.600 But also he uh kind of mixed with some high 246 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:20.639 end literary figures. Can you talk about his relationship ship 247 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.759 to Simone de Beauvoirs so I mean really notable. 248 00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:29.720 Yeah, well he could, he could. He could also mingle 249 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:34.360 with the you know, the the glitterati. He could, you know, 250 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.360 go to Lake Shore Drive and hang out with the 251 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:41.360 you know, the rich people who loved to hear, you know, 252 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:46.080 this esteemed man who had won these awards. And it 253 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:50.200 was through knowing some of those people that Simone de 254 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.679 beauvois was told by a friend of hers to call 255 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:59.519 up Nelson Algren when she came to Chicago, and they 256 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:04.080 you know, she did, and they immediately became lovers and 257 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:11.519 had this extended, five six year long love affair which 258 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:16.120 really lasted for the rest of Algren's life. But the 259 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:21.799 most intimate part, the most intense part, was those five 260 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:25.600 six years. And yes, he when he got to go 261 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:27.840 to Paris, he hung out with all of the you know, 262 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:30.960 literati in the Left Bank, and he could do that, 263 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:34.480 you know, but that was not where he wanted to be. 264 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:38.279 He wanted to go and hang out and have a 265 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.480 few drinks and then he wanted to go back to 266 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:43.840 where he was living, you know, and it's just kind 267 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:48.159 of you know, little little flat with you know, his 268 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:52.759 books stacked up and newspapers and stuff on the walls, 269 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:57.279 and you know, just really it was not what he 270 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:01.679 was yearning for. You know, he was not going back 271 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:05.039 to the suburbs or going you know, back to Hyde 272 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:08.079 Park and just you know, living the middle class lifestyle. 273 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.960 He lived the life that he wrote about. 274 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:14.720 Right, So he didn't seem to be really attracted to 275 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:19.000 that kind of cultural elite of Bouvois and Sartra and 276 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:22.359 all these other characters. But it was interesting that he 277 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:24.480 thought that. I think he stayed in the book. She 278 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:28.880 was his intellectual equal. So somebody externally you would see 279 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:31.680 walking down the street didn't look like maybe a college professor, 280 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:36.559 but obviously super intelligent guy and really kind of a character, 281 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:38.519 and he kind of did. He was really a dedicated writer. 282 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:40.839 I mean, my impression was he was a very dedicated 283 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:44.920 writer who didn't maintain his relate. He had been in 284 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.880 and out of relationships frequently and kind of bounced around. 285 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.279 Did you think that his writing career prevented him from 286 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:54.119 having long term relationships? 287 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.599 Well, He's got a really famous quote, which is, if 288 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.799 you want to be a successful writer, be a bachelor. 289 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:06.559 You know, he really felt like he didn't want something 290 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:10.839 that would weigh him down. So he got married, then 291 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:16.920 got divorced, then married the same woman again later on 292 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.920 in divorce, then married someone else in divorced. He was 293 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:25.759 never married for more than about two years. You know. Ironically, 294 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:30.400 it was really de Bouvois, which was to him his 295 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:35.480 one true love, and he would have married her. I 296 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:37.079 don't know if it would have worked. I don't think 297 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:42.200 it would have, but uh, you know, he uh, he 298 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:46.079 was not someone who wanted to get weighed down except 299 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:48.880 for Debouvois, and that was you know, one of the 300 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:52.279 great kind of sadnesses for him is that they could 301 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:57.160 never reconcile their different lifestyles, and. 302 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:58.640 She was kind of like a lot. It seemed like 303 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:01.000 it was a love triangle too. There other things involved 304 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:04.319 pulling her away, but that was his only disappointment. He 305 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:07.279 had kind of had some success in Hollywood, at least 306 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:11.640 with his writing, But can you explain what his impressions 307 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.799 were with how his works were made into films. 308 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.759 Well, it's it's an old story, you know that the 309 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:22.200 writers almost never liked the books that get made from 310 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:28.960 their work. And he he he was a stubborn guy, 311 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:32.559 you know. So when he went out to work with 312 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:37.039 Otto Preminger on Man with the Goal and Arm, he 313 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:40.680 he they you know, they came to blows very quickly 314 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:43.960 and he left after about a week and a half, 315 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:48.720 you know, because they could just not work together. And 316 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:53.480 he he got it paid, you know what by today 317 00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:59.160 the equivalent was, you know, not a terrible amount of money, 318 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.519 but given you know what could have happened if he 319 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:07.559 had really had a good negotiator, a good agent. He 320 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:11.559 kind of got screwed. And that happened also with his uh, 321 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.960 the second book that got made into a film, Walk 322 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:20.880 on the wild Side. So he you know, he he 323 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:25.720 wanted to be known. He liked being known as a writer, 324 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:29.599 but also there was a part of him that resisted it. 325 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.000 He didn't want the you know, the glamour because he 326 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.039 was really worried that he would lose his connection to 327 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.920 the subject matter that he wanted to write about. You know. 328 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.640 You know, Russell Banks has this great quote that you know, 329 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.319 the amazing novelist Russell Banks knew Algrin when he was 330 00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:53.079 very young and Russell Banks said, you know, we we 331 00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.079 we all worshiped that that bitch goddess fame, you know, 332 00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:59.359 but then we also kind of push her away. And 333 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.319 all was really kind of the embodiment of that, you 334 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.000 know that he just he didn't want to you know, 335 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:14.880 just have NonStop parties and uh, you know, literary events. 336 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:17.119 He wanted to be able to return back to the 337 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:19.039 source right. 338 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:21.599 And also interesting aspect of his characters, he didn't seem 339 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:24.799 to take himself too seriously, like maybe an author thinks 340 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:27.400 of himself as very profound, but he seems to really 341 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:30.079 have kind of a funny aspect to him and everybody, 342 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:31.920 like people mentioned in the movie, this is like one 343 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:33.519 of the funniest people they've ever met. 344 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.599 Yeah, he he definitely could. He he was not afraid 345 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:42.279 to be a clown. You know, he would he would 346 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.680 be any any any nice clothes that he got he 347 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.680 had gotten from goodwill, you know, I mean, he was 348 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:51.039 he was a guy. You know, he would wear a 349 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:54.119 rope for a belt, you know, to a really nice 350 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:57.160 kind of she Shi event, just because it was kind 351 00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.359 of his way of you know, stickin his thumb in 352 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:03.079 the eyes of you know, the people who were a 353 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:09.440 little bit more elite, so, uh, you know, he he 354 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:12.880 did not want to, you know, embrace that life, and 355 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:15.319 uh he kind of, you know, stayed away from it. 356 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:17.519 And now I've forgotten the question that you asked. 357 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:19.960 I was just saying that it was just an like 358 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:23.440 for somebody who was a serious saw to himself as 359 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:25.839 a writer. Oh what One aspect of his character was 360 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:27.599 that he was kind of like he was. I think 361 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:29.559 you said he went to improvs and joked around. 362 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:32.519 Absolutely, he would, he would hang out with He'd go 363 00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:36.720 to Second City and hang out there. He he was 364 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:40.000 a kind of a goof and his writing could be 365 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:43.799 comic too. It was really serious, but something like Walk 366 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:46.240 on the wild Side is kind of a you know, 367 00:22:46.359 --> 00:22:51.160 there's there's kind of a goofy protagonist who doesn't you know, 368 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:54.640 really get what it is that he doesn't get, you know, 369 00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:57.440 is kind of oblivious. He thinks that he's someone who's 370 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:00.920 really kind of on top of every thing, but doesn't 371 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:03.880 understand that he really has no clue what's going on. 372 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:09.119 So he could write comedy. Something he wrote a lot 373 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:14.400 more into the sixties were more kind of comic little 374 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:19.400 pieces and as just a person to hang out with 375 00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:24.279 He could definitely just be very very funny. So it 376 00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:27.559 was not about just you know, I'm doing this, this 377 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:30.839 is serious and you know, don't interrupt my serious work. 378 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:34.920 He recognized that you had to be able to laugh 379 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:36.799 sometimes even at yourself. 380 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:39.799 And he kind of some of his I mean you 381 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:41.759 say in the film that some of his films, i 382 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:45.319 mean books became sold as pull fiction. Where do you 383 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:49.960 think Algrin's work deserves to be sitting in kind of 384 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:51.799 current literary perspective? 385 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.240 Oh, it's it's got to be kind. I mean, the 386 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:59.279 reason we made this and spend so much time on 387 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:02.039 it is because it should be part of you know, 388 00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:06.200 just the American you know, the standard of American literature. 389 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:09.400 It should be you know, taught in any kind of 390 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:16.160 a survey course of American literature. His work really embodied 391 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:23.640 what America was like in the mid twentieth century and his, uh, 392 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:29.160 his work is admired and respected by so many people, 393 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:35.440 other writers, other artists who understood that not just what 394 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:38.160 he wrote about the but the way he wrote about it. 395 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:43.279 He had a style that was unique, that was something 396 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:46.240 that he worked hard on. And he was he was 397 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:49.759 a craftsman, you know, he he cared about the way 398 00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:54.119 in which he wrote, and so you know, people like 399 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:59.880 Hemingway said he was second only to Faulkner, William Faulkner 400 00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.559 as an American writer, and so he should just be 401 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.480