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Speaker 1: We back when we had pagers.

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Speaker 2: I got paged out on Christmas morning, sitting in church

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for our Christmas Morning service, and we had a guy

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and of course I'm on the swat team. He actually

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poured gas all over himself and the house and I

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had that squaw call out on Christmas morning.

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Speaker 3: I'm Ryan Gresham and this this is Guntognation. This Guntognation

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brought to you by Caldwell Ruger, Raine Ready, Smith and

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Wesson and Vortex. Hey, welcome into Guntognation Today. On Guntognation,

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we're gonna talk about training. We're gonna talk about force

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on forced. We've got Mike McCaslin from T four E.

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It's one of the companies we work with on the

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First Person Defender show. And and uh, Mike, you travel

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all around the country working with law enforcement and training

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them up. And obviously they've been using this time type

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of stuff for years to get that real life training, right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, sir, Yes, sir.

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Speaker 3: So I always try to explain to people because most

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regular gun folks don't get to do this type of training,

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and I always attempt to explain to them how it's

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different than square range shooting your real gun at a

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cardboard target that's not moving. How do you explain it

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to people when you say, but this is different, this.

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Speaker 2: Is this is a lot different. It's more it's gonna

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be more based, real life based. Then, like you said,

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shooting at a cardboard target, it's not attacking back. We did,

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you know, my twenty plus years of law enforcement, we

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did force on force as much as we could, at

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least once a month, as I was also acted.

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Speaker 1: With this walk team for years. But the force on

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force is a.

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Speaker 2: Great training tool, you know, and there's time have gone

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on the force on force training weapons have gotten better

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and better from when I was in to now.

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Speaker 3: Yep, yep. Yeah. We started First Person Defender about fourteen

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fifteen years ago. And the idea back then, I mean,

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I don't come from a law enforcement background, but the

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idea was, law enforcement does this type of training. And

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I guess the easiest way to explain it to people,

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which this is not the accurate way, but it's the

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easy way to explain it is it's like paintball, but

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it's not a game. We're actually doing real training. And

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so back then these were different types of projectiles. You

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had different companies doing it. Simmunitions and enforced enforcement was

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actually a brand I think as well. And then you

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had some other companies doing this stuff but shooting, and

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it was conversion kits on real guns, and usually law

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enforcement because law enforcement military the ones we'll get to

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train with it. Our idea was, well, civilians could benefit

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from this too, people who are interested in training. Maybe

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they're avid concealed carry you know, practitioners. Sure, So that

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was the idea of putting regular people into scenarios. Talk

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about kind of where you've seen it change over the

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years and where did it start from.

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Speaker 2: Well, everything has been just in my experience through the years,

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it's always been paint. Of course, if you're training, you

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work night shift like I did working in narcotics and

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stuff that nature time you get home, you're gonna train,

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how you play, play, how you train. I was an instructor.

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I still am currently instructor for one of our local

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agencies part time. But it was always irritating to be

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done after a long hang day of training and have

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to go wash paint off. So with our products, we

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not only have paint, we also have rubber, and we

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also have a powder or chalk balls like a food

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grade talking and spells like baby powder. So it's a

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lot cleaner. A lot of our businesses that l use

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or a school that may allow them to use training,

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they like the chalk a lot better because the cleanup

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is drastically easier and it's.

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Speaker 1: A lot safer.

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Speaker 3: So we did a fun thing we got your stuft

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y'all stuff in a few years back. We we straight

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up just shot one of our guys with all the

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different types of guns and different projectiles to see what

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it was like, which was kind of a funny video.

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If you want to look back and you're comparing T

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four E projectiles, you can see our our buddy Kevin

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Jargan kJ getting shot. But the chalk rounds hurt, right.

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Speaker 1: They do?

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Speaker 2: They all hurt and and and I get that A

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lot a lot of guys, uh say that all asked me,

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does it hurt? Well, it's not gonna hurt bad, but

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it's gonna it's going to give you enough tension to

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hopefully fix that complacent action you did to get shot

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with in the first place. It needs to inflict a

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little bit of pain. Not We're not you know, talking

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something permanent or a permanent injury, But we do want

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to get the attention it needs to. It needs to

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fix the complacent action that took place. That's why you

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got shot in that first place.

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Speaker 3: So I like the way you say that, fix the

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complacent action. Another way i've heard it say is there

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has to be a pain penalty, which I am all

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for because I've seen it, Mike, and you've probably seen

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it too. If somebody put you put a person into

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a scenario and they're wearing maybe they're wearing too much

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patting or whatever, right, and they get hit, but it

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just doesn't really either that doesn't register at all that

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they've been hit, which isn't really helpful for training, or

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there's not much of a pain penalty there. They're kind

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of like, yeah, you know whatever, and it's like, no, man,

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you screwed up. You should be because when they get

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hit and it hurts, they learn like the psychological part

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of like you need to fight through it, even though

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we coach them up and obviously yeah, no one's getting injured.

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It's just it stinks right, right, and it's okay, dang,

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I just got shot. Yeah, now you're realizing this just happened,

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and you're fighting through that. You keep moving and also

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you're realizing, well, something I just did wasn't right, perhaps

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because I you know, I shouldn't have been shot right.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, it's changed a law, it's got I

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think it's gotten a lot better as time went on.

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Back when we for when like you know, simunition and

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stuff first came out, the weapons were super light, very delicate.

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You could do a mag drop where they would break.

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You'd have to plunge the gun every fourth or fifth shot, dude,

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depending on the temperature outside. Things have progressed a lot

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since then through the years. As far as training.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the conversion kits, they'd get dirty and stuff would

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jam up, and we was very, very very common to

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have lots of jams and that type of thing, which

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you know, on one hand, you could say, oh, well

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you get to train jams, but that's not really sometimes

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that's not the point, right, and so you want these

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guns to run reliably. The other part that's a really

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big deal for how you guys approach this is this

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is not a conversion kit on a real gun. And

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the conversion kit on real gun, I mean, if you

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pay attention to this, there have been accidents that have

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happened with law enforcement training, they switch over where they

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put their gun back together, they go to lunch, they

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come back from training, and now you're you're like, is

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it a real gun or is it? And there's there's

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safety protocols in place, but it's just one other thing

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that could get messed up. I tell you what, Mike.

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When we've been filming this show, we've done hundreds of episodes,

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you talk about losing sleep. Back when we used to

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convert real guns into into training guns and back into

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real guns and back into training guns. It'll it'll make

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you lose some sleep.

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Speaker 1: I tell you, Yeah, yes, for sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. The way you guys approach is pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: Well, like I said, you're not like you said, you

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we're not doing you know, adaptive slides or anything that

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that that nature ours is a complete system. It has

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the actual almost to the t depending on what brand

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the department carries. Uh. We tried to We've we've tried

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to make it realistic as possible with the same weight

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all the way, I mean as close we could. The

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mag the same weight, the slide, the blowback, everything, how

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it would work as your regular duty weapon and also

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to fit your duty holster for training.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, I don't know if you guys

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talked about it much, but T four E is a

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part of umeres ume Rex is known for their replica

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guns and training guns and so like we talk about

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like these T four E guns. It's not just some

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random pistol shaped gun. I mean it is a Smith

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and Weston m m P or an HK VP nine

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or Walter PDP like or a lock. I mean these

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are they fit the holster and everything right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you can even add the accessories, like if you

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they carry a Surefire tacklight or a TL or tacklight,

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you know they'll fit under there. We do have one

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out of all of our T four E guns that

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is optic ready, because that seems to be a thing now.

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A lot of departments are going to optics. I have

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mixed feelings with that, but it is what it is.

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I'm old school, I admit I do have one one

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fire and that does have optics, and I do like it.

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But we have others that will be optic ready in

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the near future. It's just the popularity in the optic mounting.

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Being optic ready is a big thing right now.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad to hear that because that was something we

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we were running to the same thing. We were working

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with optic companies, and people want to test that and

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run it into these scenarios. But you, Mike, you sound

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like Chris Sarno, our trainer here. He's like, yeah, I

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mean red dots and guns. I mean I shoot more

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accurately and faster with them. But I hate them.

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Speaker 2: Right Well, like I said, I still do. I'm still

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part time instructor. I'm still in law enforcement, and I

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make these younger the younger guys, uh for you know,

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play how you try and try and play. It was

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a big thing with me is okay, you're optic, went out.

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Let's see how you do with your iron sight's with

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that optic onner.

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Speaker 1: You can see through it.

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Speaker 2: And I make them do it. I'm not trying to

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be mean by I want them to come home a lot.

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That was my number one go when I was a

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supervisor in law enforcement full time. I just want to

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make sure everybody come home a lot at the end

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of the shift every time.

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Speaker 3: It is funny when people are like, well, what if

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what if the optic breaks or what if the battery

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you go out? You know, in a scenario or in

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real life, right, you're like, well, just just use the

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sites and shoot right, shoot the bad guy right right.

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Speaker 2: They're they're they're a great training tool. They're a great

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training tool. We also we have our less lethal line too.

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We do a little bit less lethal but with a

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T four e R training for engagement. It's it's a

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great line of training tools. Uh yeah, for force on

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force training, CQB training.

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Speaker 3: I got a question on the optics stuff. Does the

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weight because since this is this is run with CO

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two and shooting you know, paintballs or rubber balls or

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whatever it is, does the weight of the optic affect

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the function of the gun. It can handle most regular

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red dot type.

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Speaker 2: And we don't recommend, you know, the department issued red

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doc that's on their duty weapon or primary duty weapon.

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We also sell replica like talk red dots at a

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fractional costs of what their duty weapon optic is, you

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know costs.

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Speaker 1: We have those where we can sell those a fraction

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of the cost for just weapon itself.

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Speaker 3: So it'll still give you a red dot. It's lighter,

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maybe it's not.

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Speaker 1: It's probably just a little lighter, not much.

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Speaker 2: They're gonna be close to the Samon, we have different

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options of those to choose from.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I didn't realize that that's cool. It's very cool. Well.

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One of the fun things when you talk about force

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and four stuff is there's always stories, there's always lessons learned.

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So after the break, it's story time. Ruger and Magpole

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walked into a bar and somehow, instead of starting a fight,

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they built a handgun masterpiece, the Ruger RXm. This American

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made pistol is everything you want, exceptional ergonomics, upgraded features,

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and a price tag that won't require selling a kidney.

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Bottom line, the RXm is built for you, your budget, and

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your obsession with tweaking your gun until it's just right.

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So go ahead and make it yours. Ruger and Magpole

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already did the hard part. Ever wanted to try train

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at a top tier shooting facility that used to be

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a slaughterhouse. Well, dreams do come true. Welcome to range

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Ready Training, the home of gun Talk Media, will be

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best firearm training facilities in the country. Led by Chris Sono,

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range Ready offers pistol rifle, women's only force and Force

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or that guy who thinks watching YouTube makes you an expert,

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For one hundred and fifty years, shooting clay pigeons has

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been the same old story, pull bang dust. But now,

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thanks to Caldwell, it's time to upgrade your game with

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the clay Copter. Because flinging targets should be just as

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fun as destroying them. This handheld electric target launcher sends

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targets up to one hundred yards flying in patterns that

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actually mimic live birds. Single or double targets your call.

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It's lightweight, rechargeable and launches three hundred targets per charge,

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meaning the only thing running out of juice first is

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probably you start shooting like you mean it with the

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Caldwell clay Copter. New for Vortex, it's the Viper shotgun

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00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,360
and closed micro red dot purpose built for the fast

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pace of turkey hunting and wing shooting. The Viper Shotgun

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enclosed micro red dot delivers an ultra low profile design

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and wide field of view for intuitive shooting and superior

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recoil control. Its enclosed design and integrated universal a mount

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ensures seamless operation and maximum protection against the elements. You

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can even use it on other things, like a lever

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gun or a tactical shotgun. Check it out from Vortex

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the Vortex viper shotgun, enclosed micro red dot. Meet the

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Smith and Wesson CSX E series. Because apparently Smith and

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00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,759
Wesson took one look at their already great CSX pistol

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and said, yeah, we can do even better. The new

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E series trigger crisp, clean, smoother than your grandpa's whiskey,

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and of course it's optics ready with a clear sight

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cuts your fancy red dot won't get blasted with carbon

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like a neglected grill. With nine millimeters, power up to

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seventeen rounds, and all the upgrades you never knew you needed.

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The csx E series isn't just an evolution, it's proof

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that Smith and Wesson refuses to take a day off. So, Mike,

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we've run all these I mean, I'm not law enforcement.

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We've run so many scenarios. You see some crazy stuff

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people do some surprising things when you put them under

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stress in a scenario where it's a three hundred and

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sixty degree environment and they're having discern if someone's a

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bad guy, if someone's a good guy, if they're just

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a bystander, and you see some crazy stuff, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh, for sure, for sure. We did training scenarios. I

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can remember onaring offhand. It always stick with me. We

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did a hostage situation in a barricaded suspect, but we

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used the courthouse and the county judge, some of the

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local attorneys to play that scenario. And I got to

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play the off war bad guy. And I remember at

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that time, back then when we're on slaughter, our chaplain,

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the sweetest guy you've ever met, UH, was also our negotiator.

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And we have a federal another federal agency, you know,

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helping us with this training.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: I'm having to sit there and use profanity and everything

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towards this chaplain. I remember at the end of the training,

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I went down there and gave me a hug. I said,

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I'm so sorry. I just it tore me apart to

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have to do what I had to do. You got

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to make it as realistic as possible and you're being told yeah,

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you know, by by the people who were my instructors

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at the time. I wanted to telling you how to

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do it. It was, it was, it was very surreal.

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I'm glad it was over with. I feel I still

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this day, I feel bad for that chaplain. He's the

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sweetest guy you ever meet, wouldn't hurt a fly. But

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he understood too. I mean, it's as you got to

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make a real life man.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry forgive me, father, I have said, I throwing

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all kinds of words at you.

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Speaker 1: Man.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, that's that's funny though. Yes, you know,

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because you're right. You're right, Mike. When you when you're

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playing the bad guy, you have a responsibility to make

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it as real as possible when you screen people up.

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And well, we've done some crazy stuff, I mean, and

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a lot of stuff. The crazy stuff is pulled from

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the news. Yes, I mean, we had one that I've

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talked about before. I mean it was pulled from the

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news where a cop showed up and stopped somebody from

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setting another person on fire. So it's like you've got,

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you know, a gas can and we're yelling I'm gonna

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set you on fire.

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Speaker 2: That has happened to me. I actually got paged out

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back when we had pagers. I got paged out on

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Christmas morning, sitting in church for our Christmas morning service,

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and we had a guy, and of course I'm on

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the swat team. He actually poured gas all over himself

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and the house and I had that squawk all out

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on Christmas morning. My spouse at the time was not happy.

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I had to get out of church and leave them.

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But it happens.

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Speaker 3: So okay, see that's what I'm saying. It was pulled

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from the news. Apparently this happens more than once.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, Thank goodness. We got the guy out

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through good negotiations and no one was hurt and he

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got the So it's funny you mentioned that because that

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00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,279
that that story is just to the t, one hundred

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percent true. Happened here in western Arkansas when I was

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active on the swat team here and the local agency.

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Speaker 3: Wow, on Christmas morning, on Christmas morning. Hey, the holidays

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00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,079
are stressful for all of us. Okay, that's right, that's right,

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Jesus man. You know, I also recall, you know, sitting

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in one of our guys was doing this office scenario

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office like bad guy shooting scenario and he's standing there

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in his office and you know, it's one of those

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shoot houses where you have catwalks, and as the as

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the good guy is running through the office building, he's

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looking up at the guys of the cat while going

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you know that they're gonna shoot me, right like and

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he and he was sure enough, the door opens up.

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You've got my hands up like this, like help me.

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Poom poom poom.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: Oh yep, yep, you just shot an innocent Yes, I mean,

358
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,039
it's just it's crazy people have to identify because not

359
00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:13,880
everything is a target when you're in your indoor shooting

360
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,079
range and everything down range is a target. But that's

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one of the big benefits of a force enforce scenario.

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Speaker 2: You're one hundred percent right, and that's what the you

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00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,160
know the more what I love about these is they're

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more budget friendly compared to the others.

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Speaker 1: Uh, you get to do it, that's one of our models.

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00:18:28,559 --> 00:18:29,519
You get to train a lot more.

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00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,880
Speaker 3: For less because of the projectiles.

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00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,960
Speaker 2: Right, yes, well, the weapon system and the projectiles are

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00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,920
a lot cheaper in price.

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00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,519
Speaker 3: I know you guys do a lot of law enforcement.

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00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,880
Do people buy these for themselves?

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00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 1: For just like all the time.

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Speaker 2: I have officers that will buy they want they when

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they use them for the first time, they've liked them

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00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,559
so much they will buy one because, like I said,

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with the same way, it has the same muscle memory

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00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,160
with the clips everything in nature.

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00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:59,200
Speaker 1: So they can sit there and practice.

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00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,720
Speaker 2: So they're drawing them there at home or you know

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00:19:01,839 --> 00:19:04,079
whatever whatever they do for that muscle memory and for

381
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:05,079
that practice they do.

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00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:09,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's cool. I've even heard of a great way

383
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,599
to get new shooters started because there's a I mean,

384
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:19,039
there's a little bit of an recoil impulse because the slide.

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00:19:18,799 --> 00:19:21,519
Speaker 1: Reciprocates, but it has a little blowback.

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00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,400
Speaker 3: But it's you know, it makes a little bit of noise,

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00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,640
there's a little bit of motion, but as far I mean,

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00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,799
it's it's almost like you're shooting at twenty two or

389
00:19:28,079 --> 00:19:31,319
something like that. So for new shooters, they can actually

390
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,920
handle a real feeling gun, same size and weight, but

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00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:37,960
they're not really worried about We have.

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00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:41,160
Speaker 2: Guys that do that without even using the semmunition. They'll

393
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,279
just use the CO two cartris for the blowback and

394
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,759
the pop of the motion. As they're training those new shooters,

395
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,960
whether it be brand new guys out of the academy

396
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,839
where it be a female or even a youth shooting clubs.

397
00:19:56,559 --> 00:19:58,359
They have done that and they'll use these for those

398
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,119
as well, without even put and the simunition in it.

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00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,519
Speaker 3: Well, and then the other thing is, I mean, would

400
00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:07,799
it be fair Mike to say this is something that

401
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,440
you could set up a I don't know, a tarp

402
00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:13,160
or something you know in your garage and you can

403
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,480
actually shoot and target practice with it.

404
00:20:15,599 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 1: Right. I have that.

405
00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:20,119
Speaker 2: I have that in my own I've got a portable

406
00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:23,640
target stand, and I've got a backdrop where if I

407
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,119
do use the paint, the lady's not screaming at me afterwards.

408
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 3: So that's cool. Yeah, that's really cool.

409
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 2: I still this day, I do my I still continue

410
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:34,759
to train too.

411
00:20:34,839 --> 00:20:37,880
Speaker 1: It's it's it's rep repetitiveness.

412
00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:41,680
Speaker 3: And I guess we should probably mention this isn't just pistols, correct.

413
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,880
Speaker 2: No, No, we have four I call them like four

414
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,039
weapons that the instructors like. We have a double barrel

415
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,440
saw it off shotgun that's a sixty eight caliber versus

416
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,880
our pistols, which are forty three caliber. We have a

417
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,119
we have a couple of different shotgun options for sure,

418
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,960
and we are in the future, and if you'll forgive me,

419
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,799
we are coming out. We are coming out with a

420
00:21:06,839 --> 00:21:09,240
new car beting. It's it's about to go into production.

421
00:21:09,319 --> 00:21:12,000
These will be sixty eight caliber. A lot of our

422
00:21:12,079 --> 00:21:15,319
swat teams, SRTs stuff that nature. They're gonna love it.

423
00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:17,000
And we're also gonna have it in a pepperball version

424
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,079
where you can use it for less lethal or for

425
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,960
you know, in corrections facilities, correctional facilities.

426
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:23,880
Speaker 1: It's gonna be great.

427
00:21:24,799 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 3: That's cool.

428
00:21:26,039 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably that's in the works.

429
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,559
Speaker 3: Probably nice to have that as an option for being

430
00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:34,680
able to shoot. I mean, it's it's still important to

431
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,200
be able to shoot accurately, even if it is a

432
00:21:37,279 --> 00:21:39,519
pepper ball type of projectile.

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00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:40,799
Speaker 1: Right right, one hundred percent.

434
00:21:42,599 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not just spraying into the crowd.

435
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,599
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

436
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 3: What other kind of lessons that What are some of

437
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,440
the common lessons that people learn from doing this type

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00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:54,200
of training.

439
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,279
Speaker 2: The force off as far as the l E side,

440
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,240
you know, l E is gonna be completely different from

441
00:21:58,279 --> 00:22:02,319
a civilian, but just building that muscle memory, especially if

442
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,039
it's a swat team. You know, every every team leader

443
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,759
or teams commander, they're gonna have a certain way. They

444
00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:10,599
want things done to a degree, so it's just building

445
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,119
that muscle memory. Uh how how they you know, they

446
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,359
want there's no iron team. They want you work and

447
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,440
they want everybody to you know, in a great flow, right,

448
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,359
you know all you know, getting on the same page.

449
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

450
00:22:23,839 --> 00:22:28,839
Speaker 3: Yeah. What about maintenance on these is it? Is there

451
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,160
a lot that you have to do with them?

452
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 1: There is not.

453
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,759
Speaker 2: We we do have a little silicone oil that you know.

454
00:22:35,839 --> 00:22:38,480
They do have seals that'll last quite a few years

455
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,000
as long as you, you know, keep them old from

456
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,240
time to time and take care of them. We strongly

457
00:22:43,279 --> 00:22:45,960
recommend once you're done training for the day, do not

458
00:22:46,079 --> 00:22:48,240
leave a seal two cartridge in them. Make sure to

459
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,480
get that seal talk to to cartridge out. They're thirty

460
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,480
five cents. I mean, if you still have everyone bleed

461
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,359
it off, get it out of there. That's just that's

462
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,039
that's that's just a lot of pressure on those seals.

463
00:22:56,079 --> 00:22:57,240
It's gonna make it last.

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00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,599
Speaker 3: A lot longer, gotcha, that's you know. Oh it's funny.

465
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,880
I never thought heard of that, but that makes complete

466
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,240
sense to actually take the CO two out of out

467
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:07,880
of them. That probably is true for a lot of

468
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:13,720
air guns, right, yes, yeah, interesting, well cool Mike. What

469
00:23:13,799 --> 00:23:15,519
else should we know about what you guys are up to?

470
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: We are, well, we're our less not non lethal, but

471
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:20,720
less lethal.

472
00:23:20,839 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: We have some big.

473
00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 2: Surprises coming out towards the latter part of the year too,

474
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,680
so you'll definitely have to get back with me on that.

475
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,559
We got some really big stuff that'll be only L

476
00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:31,599
E and military only. And that's that's what I do

477
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,799
here at ian Retch. You just saying I do T

478
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,400
four E train for engagement, the p twop line, prepared

479
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,519
to protect, and then I'm also now with our UMX

480
00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:43,240
line which I can hopefully hear in a few months

481
00:23:43,279 --> 00:23:44,839
give you some more detail on it. It's gonna be

482
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,799
a very great product for L E military only.

483
00:23:48,759 --> 00:23:51,559
Speaker 3: Very cool. Well, more training always good, and if you

484
00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:55,319
can make the training not cost as much, maybe they

485
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:56,480
do more training.

486
00:23:56,799 --> 00:23:59,599
Speaker 2: That's our bu With our T four E guns, you're

487
00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:01,359
going to get do a lot more training for less.

488
00:24:01,759 --> 00:24:04,240
I know how it is with departments and sheriff's offices

489
00:24:04,319 --> 00:24:08,359
budget budget budget. Yea, these here will help budget. You

490
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,960
get to do a lot more training for less. We

491
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,400
can fit you with the right simmunition of what you need.

492
00:24:14,839 --> 00:24:17,279
Like in Florida, I'm not gonna push paint as much

493
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,160
due to the temperatures and humidity down there. We have

494
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,000
a lot of agencies in Florida and South like San

495
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:23,920
Antonio on Dallas.

496
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 1: They love the powder.

497
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,759
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, the paint will get soft, you know,

498
00:24:28,759 --> 00:24:31,799
if you're doing CQB in a shoot house like you said,

499
00:24:31,839 --> 00:24:33,440
We've had one of those with the Catwalker.

500
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: You know our department that was part of we had

501
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,119
one of those as well. It was outdoor.

502
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: You know, I can tell you for a fact, our

503
00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:42,359
our team leader one rubber. The rubbers were usable with

504
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,079
no shelf life. The rubber does inflict a little more paint.

505
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:53,480
So uh, there's yes, more learning, that's right. But we

506
00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:55,519
have you know, we have three different options right now

507
00:24:55,559 --> 00:24:59,000
with the paint, rubber and the powder. Versus other competitors,

508
00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:01,839
it's just paint paint, paint, paint paint, and the prices

509
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,680
is dramatically higher. We're talking pennies versus a dollar.

510
00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we've used a bunch of different stuff.

511
00:25:10,039 --> 00:25:11,839
I mean the kind of the pros and cons of

512
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,039
a lot of it. But like I was just we

513
00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:17,240
were just talking about Airsoft earlier today and as far

514
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,799
as what we're talking about for training purposes, airsoft just

515
00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:24,960
is kind of it's I mean, it's a toy, you know,

516
00:25:25,039 --> 00:25:28,039
it's it, and the projectiles aren't going to give you

517
00:25:28,079 --> 00:25:30,599
that lessons learned, right.

518
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of partners that still do use airsoft,

519
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,640
but they are transitioning mocely to you know, get the

520
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,599
information in their hands. Like I said, I do a

521
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,799
lot of range demos, w I do vendor shows around

522
00:25:40,799 --> 00:25:42,839
the US. I just actually got back from Germany not

523
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,319
too long ago for enforced tack over there. But once

524
00:25:46,319 --> 00:25:48,000
they see it, they're like, WHOA, this is nice. This

525
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,839
has the same weight, this looks identical. We can put

526
00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:53,160
our accessories on there. It's the duty holster in and

527
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,200
out perfect. And then and then I give them the

528
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,759
cost and what they think they might buy four or

529
00:25:58,799 --> 00:26:00,880
five though by ten or twelve they're like, hey, I've

530
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,039
got this in my budget. And then I'll get emails

531
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,160
or calls back where they're just very grateful.

532
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 3: That's great, that's fantastic.

533
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: They get to do a lot more training.

534
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,759
Speaker 3: So you this isn't just in the US. You guys

535
00:26:10,799 --> 00:26:13,920
are doing this all over the world. Sir, Wow, okay,

536
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,960
very cool. Well, Mike, thanks for being on with us

537
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,559
and talking about it. I mean, if if people want

538
00:26:20,559 --> 00:26:22,000
to find out more, where do they go?

539
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: You can go to ume Rex USA. You can get

540
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:26,480
in touch with this.

541
00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 2: I apologize U MA Rex U s A info dot

542
00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:33,119
T four e guns dot com. Uh.

543
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 3: I guess I guess what the what the listeners will

544
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,000
really doing is they'll just go into their Google machine

545
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,119
and type in T four E.

546
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 2: You can do that as well, and you'll get You'll

547
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,000
get in touch with one of us. I promise you,

548
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:44,720
we'll get back to you as soon as possible.

549
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:45,839
Speaker 1: Uh.

550
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 2: We got some great stuff and you can get on

551
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,920
there too and look at the online catalogs, get a

552
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,759
closer look in some of the different options. Like I said,

553
00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:55,640
like you said, we we got Walthor, Smith and Wisson.

554
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,920
We have their umax you know, lie for block out,

555
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,960
and we've got a h K E p n I.

556
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,640
We got some other stuff, like I said, in the

557
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,920
works for the future. Just in T four E alone,

558
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,880
we got the new car being that will be launched

559
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,559
here soon. I'm excited about that. It is a sixty

560
00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:11,480
eight caliber, so it's gonna have a little more punch.

561
00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:13,880
And the pistols for sure. Cool.

562
00:27:14,039 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, very cool to it.

563
00:27:16,839 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, you guys go check it out. I mean, we

564
00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:20,640
use them, we like them. That's a little behind the

565
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,559
scenes of when you see the First Person Finder episodes.

566
00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:27,839
I mean, for the last several years, T four E

567
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,000
is what we've been using as far as those types

568
00:27:30,039 --> 00:27:34,279
of training guns. So and really, honestly, it's been the

569
00:27:34,319 --> 00:27:36,599
best of all the different type of force and force

570
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,599
stuff we've used over the years. This is the best.

571
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,279
Speaker 1: One man, it was an honor.

572
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,039
Speaker 2: I greatly thank you for letting me be a part

573
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,319
of your podcast, and thank you so much Mike.

574
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,079
Speaker 3: Thanks again, it's been good talking with you. You guys,

575
00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:51,599
thanks for listening, and we will see you next time

576
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:52,400
on Gun Tognation.