Speaker 1: We back when we had pagers.
Speaker 2: I got paged out on Christmas morning, sitting in church
for our Christmas Morning service, and we had a guy
and of course I'm on the swat team. He actually
poured gas all over himself and the house and I
had that squaw call out on Christmas morning.
Speaker 3: I'm Ryan Gresham and this this is Guntognation. This Guntognation
brought to you by Caldwell Ruger, Raine Ready, Smith and
Wesson and Vortex. Hey, welcome into Guntognation Today. On Guntognation,
we're gonna talk about training. We're gonna talk about force
on forced. We've got Mike McCaslin from T four E.
It's one of the companies we work with on the
First Person Defender show. And and uh, Mike, you travel
all around the country working with law enforcement and training
them up. And obviously they've been using this time type
of stuff for years to get that real life training, right.
Speaker 1: Yes, sir, Yes, sir.
Speaker 3: So I always try to explain to people because most
regular gun folks don't get to do this type of training,
and I always attempt to explain to them how it's
different than square range shooting your real gun at a
cardboard target that's not moving. How do you explain it
to people when you say, but this is different, this.
Speaker 2: Is this is a lot different. It's more it's gonna
be more based, real life based. Then, like you said,
shooting at a cardboard target, it's not attacking back. We did,
you know, my twenty plus years of law enforcement, we
did force on force as much as we could, at
least once a month, as I was also acted.
Speaker 1: With this walk team for years. But the force on
force is a.
Speaker 2: Great training tool, you know, and there's time have gone
on the force on force training weapons have gotten better
and better from when I was in to now.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep. Yeah. We started First Person Defender about fourteen
fifteen years ago. And the idea back then, I mean,
I don't come from a law enforcement background, but the
idea was, law enforcement does this type of training. And
I guess the easiest way to explain it to people,
which this is not the accurate way, but it's the
easy way to explain it is it's like paintball, but
it's not a game. We're actually doing real training. And
so back then these were different types of projectiles. You
had different companies doing it. Simmunitions and enforced enforcement was
actually a brand I think as well. And then you
had some other companies doing this stuff but shooting, and
it was conversion kits on real guns, and usually law
enforcement because law enforcement military the ones we'll get to
train with it. Our idea was, well, civilians could benefit
from this too, people who are interested in training. Maybe
they're avid concealed carry you know, practitioners. Sure, So that
was the idea of putting regular people into scenarios. Talk
about kind of where you've seen it change over the
years and where did it start from.
Speaker 2: Well, everything has been just in my experience through the years,
it's always been paint. Of course, if you're training, you
work night shift like I did working in narcotics and
stuff that nature time you get home, you're gonna train,
how you play, play, how you train. I was an instructor.
I still am currently instructor for one of our local
agencies part time. But it was always irritating to be
done after a long hang day of training and have
to go wash paint off. So with our products, we
not only have paint, we also have rubber, and we
also have a powder or chalk balls like a food
grade talking and spells like baby powder. So it's a
lot cleaner. A lot of our businesses that l use
or a school that may allow them to use training,
they like the chalk a lot better because the cleanup
is drastically easier and it's.
Speaker 1: A lot safer.
Speaker 3: So we did a fun thing we got your stuft
y'all stuff in a few years back. We we straight
up just shot one of our guys with all the
different types of guns and different projectiles to see what
it was like, which was kind of a funny video.
If you want to look back and you're comparing T
four E projectiles, you can see our our buddy Kevin
Jargan kJ getting shot. But the chalk rounds hurt, right.
Speaker 1: They do?
Speaker 2: They all hurt and and and I get that A
lot a lot of guys, uh say that all asked me,
does it hurt? Well, it's not gonna hurt bad, but
it's gonna it's going to give you enough tension to
hopefully fix that complacent action you did to get shot
with in the first place. It needs to inflict a
little bit of pain. Not We're not you know, talking
something permanent or a permanent injury, But we do want
to get the attention it needs to. It needs to
fix the complacent action that took place. That's why you
got shot in that first place.
Speaker 3: So I like the way you say that, fix the
complacent action. Another way i've heard it say is there
has to be a pain penalty, which I am all
for because I've seen it, Mike, and you've probably seen
it too. If somebody put you put a person into
a scenario and they're wearing maybe they're wearing too much
patting or whatever, right, and they get hit, but it
just doesn't really either that doesn't register at all that
they've been hit, which isn't really helpful for training, or
there's not much of a pain penalty there. They're kind
of like, yeah, you know whatever, and it's like, no, man,
you screwed up. You should be because when they get
hit and it hurts, they learn like the psychological part
of like you need to fight through it, even though
we coach them up and obviously yeah, no one's getting injured.
It's just it stinks right, right, and it's okay, dang,
I just got shot. Yeah, now you're realizing this just happened,
and you're fighting through that. You keep moving and also
you're realizing, well, something I just did wasn't right, perhaps
because I you know, I shouldn't have been shot right.
Speaker 2: Like I said, it's changed a law, it's got I
think it's gotten a lot better as time went on.
Back when we for when like you know, simunition and
stuff first came out, the weapons were super light, very delicate.
You could do a mag drop where they would break.
You'd have to plunge the gun every fourth or fifth shot, dude,
depending on the temperature outside. Things have progressed a lot
since then through the years. As far as training.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the conversion kits, they'd get dirty and stuff would
jam up, and we was very, very very common to
have lots of jams and that type of thing, which
you know, on one hand, you could say, oh, well
you get to train jams, but that's not really sometimes
that's not the point, right, and so you want these
guns to run reliably. The other part that's a really
big deal for how you guys approach this is this
is not a conversion kit on a real gun. And
the conversion kit on real gun, I mean, if you
pay attention to this, there have been accidents that have
happened with law enforcement training, they switch over where they
put their gun back together, they go to lunch, they
come back from training, and now you're you're like, is
it a real gun or is it? And there's there's
safety protocols in place, but it's just one other thing
that could get messed up. I tell you what, Mike.
When we've been filming this show, we've done hundreds of episodes,
you talk about losing sleep. Back when we used to
convert real guns into into training guns and back into
real guns and back into training guns. It'll it'll make
you lose some sleep.
Speaker 1: I tell you, Yeah, yes, for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The way you guys approach is pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Well, like I said, you're not like you said, you
we're not doing you know, adaptive slides or anything that
that that nature ours is a complete system. It has
the actual almost to the t depending on what brand
the department carries. Uh. We tried to We've we've tried
to make it realistic as possible with the same weight
all the way, I mean as close we could. The
mag the same weight, the slide, the blowback, everything, how
it would work as your regular duty weapon and also
to fit your duty holster for training.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, I don't know if you guys
talked about it much, but T four E is a
part of umeres ume Rex is known for their replica
guns and training guns and so like we talk about
like these T four E guns. It's not just some
random pistol shaped gun. I mean it is a Smith
and Weston m m P or an HK VP nine
or Walter PDP like or a lock. I mean these
are they fit the holster and everything right.
Speaker 2: Yes, you can even add the accessories, like if you
they carry a Surefire tacklight or a TL or tacklight,
you know they'll fit under there. We do have one
out of all of our T four E guns that
is optic ready, because that seems to be a thing now.
A lot of departments are going to optics. I have
mixed feelings with that, but it is what it is.
I'm old school, I admit I do have one one
fire and that does have optics, and I do like it.
But we have others that will be optic ready in
the near future. It's just the popularity in the optic mounting.
Being optic ready is a big thing right now.
Speaker 3: I'm glad to hear that because that was something we
we were running to the same thing. We were working
with optic companies, and people want to test that and
run it into these scenarios. But you, Mike, you sound
like Chris Sarno, our trainer here. He's like, yeah, I
mean red dots and guns. I mean I shoot more
accurately and faster with them. But I hate them.
Speaker 2: Right Well, like I said, I still do. I'm still
part time instructor. I'm still in law enforcement, and I
make these younger the younger guys, uh for you know,
play how you try and try and play. It was
a big thing with me is okay, you're optic, went out.
Let's see how you do with your iron sight's with
that optic onner.
Speaker 1: You can see through it.
Speaker 2: And I make them do it. I'm not trying to
be mean by I want them to come home a lot.
That was my number one go when I was a
supervisor in law enforcement full time. I just want to
make sure everybody come home a lot at the end
of the shift every time.
Speaker 3: It is funny when people are like, well, what if
what if the optic breaks or what if the battery
you go out? You know, in a scenario or in
real life, right, you're like, well, just just use the
sites and shoot right, shoot the bad guy right right.
Speaker 2: They're they're they're a great training tool. They're a great
training tool. We also we have our less lethal line too.
We do a little bit less lethal but with a
T four e R training for engagement. It's it's a
great line of training tools. Uh yeah, for force on
force training, CQB training.
Speaker 3: I got a question on the optics stuff. Does the
weight because since this is this is run with CO
two and shooting you know, paintballs or rubber balls or
whatever it is, does the weight of the optic affect
the function of the gun. It can handle most regular
red dot type.
Speaker 2: And we don't recommend, you know, the department issued red
doc that's on their duty weapon or primary duty weapon.
We also sell replica like talk red dots at a
fractional costs of what their duty weapon optic is, you
know costs.
Speaker 1: We have those where we can sell those a fraction
of the cost for just weapon itself.
Speaker 3: So it'll still give you a red dot. It's lighter,
maybe it's not.
Speaker 1: It's probably just a little lighter, not much.
Speaker 2: They're gonna be close to the Samon, we have different
options of those to choose from.
Speaker 3: Okay, I didn't realize that that's cool. It's very cool. Well.
One of the fun things when you talk about force
and four stuff is there's always stories, there's always lessons learned.
So after the break, it's story time. Ruger and Magpole
walked into a bar and somehow, instead of starting a fight,
they built a handgun masterpiece, the Ruger RXm. This American
made pistol is everything you want, exceptional ergonomics, upgraded features,
and a price tag that won't require selling a kidney.
Bottom line, the RXm is built for you, your budget, and
your obsession with tweaking your gun until it's just right.
So go ahead and make it yours. Ruger and Magpole
already did the hard part. Ever wanted to try train
at a top tier shooting facility that used to be
a slaughterhouse. Well, dreams do come true. Welcome to range
Ready Training, the home of gun Talk Media, will be
turned an abandoned meat processing plant into one of the
best firearm training facilities in the country. Led by Chris Sono,
range Ready offers pistol rifle, women's only force and Force
and instructor development courses. Whether you're a newbie, a pro,
or that guy who thinks watching YouTube makes you an expert,
We've got a class for you. So if you're serious
about getting better, training, smarter, and maybe experiencing a little
Louisiana charm along the way, come check out range Ready Training.
For one hundred and fifty years, shooting clay pigeons has
been the same old story, pull bang dust. But now,
thanks to Caldwell, it's time to upgrade your game with
the clay Copter. Because flinging targets should be just as
fun as destroying them. This handheld electric target launcher sends
targets up to one hundred yards flying in patterns that
actually mimic live birds. Single or double targets your call.
It's lightweight, rechargeable and launches three hundred targets per charge,
meaning the only thing running out of juice first is
probably you start shooting like you mean it with the
Caldwell clay Copter. New for Vortex, it's the Viper shotgun
and closed micro red dot purpose built for the fast
pace of turkey hunting and wing shooting. The Viper Shotgun
enclosed micro red dot delivers an ultra low profile design
and wide field of view for intuitive shooting and superior
recoil control. Its enclosed design and integrated universal a mount
ensures seamless operation and maximum protection against the elements. You
can even use it on other things, like a lever
gun or a tactical shotgun. Check it out from Vortex
the Vortex viper shotgun, enclosed micro red dot. Meet the
Smith and Wesson CSX E series. Because apparently Smith and
Wesson took one look at their already great CSX pistol
and said, yeah, we can do even better. The new
E series trigger crisp, clean, smoother than your grandpa's whiskey,
and of course it's optics ready with a clear sight
cuts your fancy red dot won't get blasted with carbon
like a neglected grill. With nine millimeters, power up to
seventeen rounds, and all the upgrades you never knew you needed.
The csx E series isn't just an evolution, it's proof
that Smith and Wesson refuses to take a day off. So, Mike,
we've run all these I mean, I'm not law enforcement.
We've run so many scenarios. You see some crazy stuff
people do some surprising things when you put them under
stress in a scenario where it's a three hundred and
sixty degree environment and they're having discern if someone's a
bad guy, if someone's a good guy, if they're just
a bystander, and you see some crazy stuff, right.
Speaker 2: Oh, for sure, for sure. We did training scenarios. I
can remember onaring offhand. It always stick with me. We
did a hostage situation in a barricaded suspect, but we
used the courthouse and the county judge, some of the
local attorneys to play that scenario. And I got to
play the off war bad guy. And I remember at
that time, back then when we're on slaughter, our chaplain,
the sweetest guy you've ever met, UH, was also our negotiator.
And we have a federal another federal agency, you know,
helping us with this training.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: I'm having to sit there and use profanity and everything
towards this chaplain. I remember at the end of the training,
I went down there and gave me a hug. I said,
I'm so sorry. I just it tore me apart to
have to do what I had to do. You got
to make it as realistic as possible and you're being told yeah,
you know, by by the people who were my instructors
at the time. I wanted to telling you how to
do it. It was, it was, it was very surreal.
I'm glad it was over with. I feel I still
this day, I feel bad for that chaplain. He's the
sweetest guy you ever meet, wouldn't hurt a fly. But
he understood too. I mean, it's as you got to
make a real life man.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry forgive me, father, I have said, I throwing
all kinds of words at you.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, that's that's funny though. Yes, you know,
because you're right. You're right, Mike. When you when you're
playing the bad guy, you have a responsibility to make
it as real as possible when you screen people up.
And well, we've done some crazy stuff, I mean, and
a lot of stuff. The crazy stuff is pulled from
the news. Yes, I mean, we had one that I've
talked about before. I mean it was pulled from the
news where a cop showed up and stopped somebody from
setting another person on fire. So it's like you've got,
you know, a gas can and we're yelling I'm gonna
set you on fire.
Speaker 2: That has happened to me. I actually got paged out
back when we had pagers. I got paged out on
Christmas morning, sitting in church for our Christmas morning service,
and we had a guy, and of course I'm on
the swat team. He actually poured gas all over himself
and the house and I had that squawk all out
on Christmas morning. My spouse at the time was not happy.
I had to get out of church and leave them.
But it happens.
Speaker 3: So okay, see that's what I'm saying. It was pulled
from the news. Apparently this happens more than once.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, Thank goodness. We got the guy out
through good negotiations and no one was hurt and he
got the So it's funny you mentioned that because that
that that story is just to the t, one hundred
percent true. Happened here in western Arkansas when I was
active on the swat team here and the local agency.
Speaker 3: Wow, on Christmas morning, on Christmas morning. Hey, the holidays
are stressful for all of us. Okay, that's right, that's right,
Jesus man. You know, I also recall, you know, sitting
in one of our guys was doing this office scenario
office like bad guy shooting scenario and he's standing there
in his office and you know, it's one of those
shoot houses where you have catwalks, and as the as
the good guy is running through the office building, he's
looking up at the guys of the cat while going
you know that they're gonna shoot me, right like and
he and he was sure enough, the door opens up.
You've got my hands up like this, like help me.
Poom poom poom.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: Oh yep, yep, you just shot an innocent Yes, I mean,
it's just it's crazy people have to identify because not
everything is a target when you're in your indoor shooting
range and everything down range is a target. But that's
one of the big benefits of a force enforce scenario.
Speaker 2: You're one hundred percent right, and that's what the you
know the more what I love about these is they're
more budget friendly compared to the others.
Speaker 1: Uh, you get to do it, that's one of our models.
You get to train a lot more.
Speaker 3: For less because of the projectiles.
Speaker 2: Right, yes, well, the weapon system and the projectiles are
a lot cheaper in price.
Speaker 3: I know you guys do a lot of law enforcement.
Do people buy these for themselves?
Speaker 1: For just like all the time.
Speaker 2: I have officers that will buy they want they when
they use them for the first time, they've liked them
so much they will buy one because, like I said,
with the same way, it has the same muscle memory
with the clips everything in nature.
Speaker 1: So they can sit there and practice.
Speaker 2: So they're drawing them there at home or you know
whatever whatever they do for that muscle memory and for
that practice they do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's cool. I've even heard of a great way
to get new shooters started because there's a I mean,
there's a little bit of an recoil impulse because the slide.
Speaker 1: Reciprocates, but it has a little blowback.
Speaker 3: But it's you know, it makes a little bit of noise,
there's a little bit of motion, but as far I mean,
it's it's almost like you're shooting at twenty two or
something like that. So for new shooters, they can actually
handle a real feeling gun, same size and weight, but
they're not really worried about We have.
Speaker 2: Guys that do that without even using the semmunition. They'll
just use the CO two cartris for the blowback and
the pop of the motion. As they're training those new shooters,
whether it be brand new guys out of the academy
where it be a female or even a youth shooting clubs.
They have done that and they'll use these for those
as well, without even put and the simunition in it.
Speaker 3: Well, and then the other thing is, I mean, would
it be fair Mike to say this is something that
you could set up a I don't know, a tarp
or something you know in your garage and you can
actually shoot and target practice with it.
Speaker 1: Right. I have that.
Speaker 2: I have that in my own I've got a portable
target stand, and I've got a backdrop where if I
do use the paint, the lady's not screaming at me afterwards.
Speaker 3: So that's cool. Yeah, that's really cool.
Speaker 2: I still this day, I do my I still continue
to train too.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's rep repetitiveness.
Speaker 3: And I guess we should probably mention this isn't just pistols, correct.
Speaker 2: No, No, we have four I call them like four
weapons that the instructors like. We have a double barrel
saw it off shotgun that's a sixty eight caliber versus
our pistols, which are forty three caliber. We have a
we have a couple of different shotgun options for sure,
and we are in the future, and if you'll forgive me,
we are coming out. We are coming out with a
new car beting. It's it's about to go into production.
These will be sixty eight caliber. A lot of our
swat teams, SRTs stuff that nature. They're gonna love it.
And we're also gonna have it in a pepperball version
where you can use it for less lethal or for
you know, in corrections facilities, correctional facilities.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be great.
Speaker 3: That's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably that's in the works.
Speaker 3: Probably nice to have that as an option for being
able to shoot. I mean, it's it's still important to
be able to shoot accurately, even if it is a
pepper ball type of projectile.
Speaker 1: Right right, one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not just spraying into the crowd.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: What other kind of lessons that What are some of
the common lessons that people learn from doing this type
of training.
Speaker 2: The force off as far as the l E side,
you know, l E is gonna be completely different from
a civilian, but just building that muscle memory, especially if
it's a swat team. You know, every every team leader
or teams commander, they're gonna have a certain way. They
want things done to a degree, so it's just building
that muscle memory. Uh how how they you know, they
want there's no iron team. They want you work and
they want everybody to you know, in a great flow, right,
you know all you know, getting on the same page.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. What about maintenance on these is it? Is there
a lot that you have to do with them?
Speaker 1: There is not.
Speaker 2: We we do have a little silicone oil that you know.
They do have seals that'll last quite a few years
as long as you, you know, keep them old from
time to time and take care of them. We strongly
recommend once you're done training for the day, do not
leave a seal two cartridge in them. Make sure to
get that seal talk to to cartridge out. They're thirty
five cents. I mean, if you still have everyone bleed
it off, get it out of there. That's just that's
that's that's just a lot of pressure on those seals.
It's gonna make it last.
Speaker 3: A lot longer, gotcha, that's you know. Oh it's funny.
I never thought heard of that, but that makes complete
sense to actually take the CO two out of out
of them. That probably is true for a lot of
air guns, right, yes, yeah, interesting, well cool Mike. What
else should we know about what you guys are up to?
Speaker 2: We are, well, we're our less not non lethal, but
less lethal.
Speaker 1: We have some big.
Speaker 2: Surprises coming out towards the latter part of the year too,
so you'll definitely have to get back with me on that.
We got some really big stuff that'll be only L
E and military only. And that's that's what I do
here at ian Retch. You just saying I do T
four E train for engagement, the p twop line, prepared
to protect, and then I'm also now with our UMX
line which I can hopefully hear in a few months
give you some more detail on it. It's gonna be
a very great product for L E military only.
Speaker 3: Very cool. Well, more training always good, and if you
can make the training not cost as much, maybe they
do more training.
Speaker 2: That's our bu With our T four E guns, you're
going to get do a lot more training for less.
I know how it is with departments and sheriff's offices
budget budget budget. Yea, these here will help budget. You
get to do a lot more training for less. We
can fit you with the right simmunition of what you need.
Like in Florida, I'm not gonna push paint as much
due to the temperatures and humidity down there. We have
a lot of agencies in Florida and South like San
Antonio on Dallas.
Speaker 1: They love the powder.
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, the paint will get soft, you know,
if you're doing CQB in a shoot house like you said,
We've had one of those with the Catwalker.
Speaker 1: You know our department that was part of we had
one of those as well. It was outdoor.
Speaker 2: You know, I can tell you for a fact, our
our team leader one rubber. The rubbers were usable with
no shelf life. The rubber does inflict a little more paint.
So uh, there's yes, more learning, that's right. But we
have you know, we have three different options right now
with the paint, rubber and the powder. Versus other competitors,
it's just paint paint, paint, paint paint, and the prices
is dramatically higher. We're talking pennies versus a dollar.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we've used a bunch of different stuff.
I mean the kind of the pros and cons of
a lot of it. But like I was just we
were just talking about Airsoft earlier today and as far
as what we're talking about for training purposes, airsoft just
is kind of it's I mean, it's a toy, you know,
it's it, and the projectiles aren't going to give you
that lessons learned, right.
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of partners that still do use airsoft,
but they are transitioning mocely to you know, get the
information in their hands. Like I said, I do a
lot of range demos, w I do vendor shows around
the US. I just actually got back from Germany not
too long ago for enforced tack over there. But once
they see it, they're like, WHOA, this is nice. This
has the same weight, this looks identical. We can put
our accessories on there. It's the duty holster in and
out perfect. And then and then I give them the
cost and what they think they might buy four or
five though by ten or twelve they're like, hey, I've
got this in my budget. And then I'll get emails
or calls back where they're just very grateful.
Speaker 3: That's great, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1: They get to do a lot more training.
Speaker 3: So you this isn't just in the US. You guys
are doing this all over the world. Sir, Wow, okay,
very cool. Well, Mike, thanks for being on with us
and talking about it. I mean, if if people want
to find out more, where do they go?
Speaker 1: You can go to ume Rex USA. You can get
in touch with this.
Speaker 2: I apologize U MA Rex U s A info dot
T four e guns dot com. Uh.
Speaker 3: I guess I guess what the what the listeners will
really doing is they'll just go into their Google machine
and type in T four E.
Speaker 2: You can do that as well, and you'll get You'll
get in touch with one of us. I promise you,
we'll get back to you as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: We got some great stuff and you can get on
there too and look at the online catalogs, get a
closer look in some of the different options. Like I said,
like you said, we we got Walthor, Smith and Wisson.
We have their umax you know, lie for block out,
and we've got a h K E p n I.
We got some other stuff, like I said, in the
works for the future. Just in T four E alone,
we got the new car being that will be launched
here soon. I'm excited about that. It is a sixty
eight caliber, so it's gonna have a little more punch.
And the pistols for sure. Cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, very cool to it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you guys go check it out. I mean, we
use them, we like them. That's a little behind the
scenes of when you see the First Person Finder episodes.
I mean, for the last several years, T four E
is what we've been using as far as those types
of training guns. So and really, honestly, it's been the
best of all the different type of force and force
stuff we've used over the years. This is the best.
Speaker 1: One man, it was an honor.
Speaker 2: I greatly thank you for letting me be a part
of your podcast, and thank you so much Mike.
Speaker 3: Thanks again, it's been good talking with you. You guys,
thanks for listening, and we will see you next time
on Gun Tognation.