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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an airwave media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>On Monster Talk, we frequently talk about imaginary monsters or

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<v Speaker 2>creatures of folklore, but today we will be discussing a

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<v Speaker 2>real creature that preys on humans and our closest animal companions.

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<v Speaker 2>It is often invisible, it drinks blood to survive, and

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<v Speaker 2>it is responsible for many of the sightings credited to

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<v Speaker 2>a chupacabra.

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<v Speaker 3>Many of you will cringe and recoil.

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<v Speaker 2>In horror when you learn the true facts behind the

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<v Speaker 2>creature known as Sarcopti's scaby Eye. It's actually quite unlike

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<v Speaker 2>anything we've ever seen before.

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<v Speaker 4>A giant, very creature, part ape is part mass in Larkness,

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<v Speaker 4>a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the

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<v Speaker 4>Highlands of Scotland.

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<v Speaker 5>It's a creature known as the luck Nest Monster.

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<v Speaker 2>Monster tal Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Blake Smith, and together with doctor Karen stolesnow blogger,

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<v Speaker 2>linguist and paranormal researcher, and Benjamin Radford, science journalist and

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<v Speaker 2>managing editor of Skeptical Inquirer, we fish for the chunky

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<v Speaker 2>pieces of science and the steaming bowl of soup that

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<v Speaker 2>is Monster folklore. Today, we find some especially meati pieces

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<v Speaker 2>as we get under the skin of the chupacabra legend

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<v Speaker 2>and find out more about the lice that caused the

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<v Speaker 2>often reported hairless canids the media seems to love so much.

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<v Speaker 2>It's okay to scratch, but don't skip this episode once

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<v Speaker 2>you get past the discuss factor. There is some amazing

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<v Speaker 2>science going on in acyrology, and it is fascinating stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>Moresrtal.

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<v Speaker 2>So, I noticed the other day that we've actually been

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<v Speaker 2>doing Monster Talk for a full year now.

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<v Speaker 3>It does is kind of fantastic.

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<v Speaker 6>Have you both day to us?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so this is.

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<v Speaker 2>The first opportunity we've had to get together. Actually, we

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<v Speaker 2>had an opportunity to be together, but nobody noticed. It

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<v Speaker 2>was the one year anniversary while we were there.

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<v Speaker 6>What date marks the anniversary?

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<v Speaker 2>Ole It was about, I guess a couple of days

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<v Speaker 2>before we actually went live with episode one, which would

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<v Speaker 2>have been in July of two thousand and nine. So

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<v Speaker 2>the specific date, I'll look it up and then we

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<v Speaker 2>can put that on our web page.

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<v Speaker 6>So we will over one now.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah. Yeah, so, And in fact, if I'm not mistaken,

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<v Speaker 7>haven't we recently rechieved a milestone in terms of listeners.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep, we've crossed the ten thousand subscribers milestone. So it

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<v Speaker 2>was very very close to my one year goal. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know what my goal is for year two. I'd

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<v Speaker 2>like to get a Nobel Prize winter On. How about

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<v Speaker 2>that to be Nobel either when we'd do in my book,

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<v Speaker 2>I would.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, Hey, if we're gonna have doctors and believers,

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<v Speaker 1>then we'll have to have both.

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<v Speaker 2>I would love to get an Ignoble Prize myself. I

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<v Speaker 2>haven't really posed.

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<v Speaker 6>You're well on the way.

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<v Speaker 2>When you have to do something real science, y uh,

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<v Speaker 2>it just has to be crazy, So real sciencey doubles.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll leave that off the show. We'll talk about that offline.

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<v Speaker 2>My plans to get an Ignoble Prize.

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<v Speaker 6>So it's got something to do with.

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<v Speaker 1>You.

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<v Speaker 3>No, it's something to do with bones. I think that.

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<v Speaker 3>I think there's something to do with big foot, bones

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<v Speaker 3>and big So there's that.

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<v Speaker 7>So what's today's topic, Doctor Atlanta.

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<v Speaker 2>Today's topic, We're going to be talking about a real monster,

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<v Speaker 2>one that you can actually encounter in the woods near

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<v Speaker 2>your home if you live in North America and probably

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<v Speaker 2>all over the world. As a matter of fact, This

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<v Speaker 2>is a of course, a bloodsucking creature that looks very strange.

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<v Speaker 6>It's not a cheap of capra.

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<v Speaker 3>No, but it is directly related.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's not a vampire either. These are all good guesses. No,

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<v Speaker 2>Today we're going to talk about lice. I itchy already,

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<v Speaker 2>lice and mites. We're going to talk about the creature

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<v Speaker 2>is the cause the hairless canines that we see on

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<v Speaker 2>the media so frequently that people attribute to being cheap oficabras.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're going to be talking to doctor Barry O'Connor,

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<v Speaker 2>who is an evolutionary parasitologist, and he actually specializes in mites,

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<v Speaker 2>including the kinds of the cause mange, and mange is

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<v Speaker 2>probably the most common cause for the hairless condition we

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<v Speaker 2>see in Let's call them media chupacabra candidates, or then

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<v Speaker 2>you may have some other shorthand for them.

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<v Speaker 7>I'm not sure how. I usually call them temporary chop ofcabras.

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<v Speaker 3>I like that supercabra. What's that in Spanish.

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<v Speaker 7>Man uhbs temporarily that.

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<v Speaker 2>Is like sounds very very romanic.

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<v Speaker 3>Dost a lot of super cobra or l supercabra.

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<v Speaker 7>It will probably be l but it's funny.

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<v Speaker 6>What are some of the other.

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<v Speaker 1>Causes if we're not talking mites in mange?

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<v Speaker 2>Apparently there's a breed of dog that's naturally hairless or

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<v Speaker 2>not a dog.

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<v Speaker 3>What is the well, maybe it is a dog. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>Therezola is a dog.

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<v Speaker 2>And then there's those hairless There was the red wolf

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<v Speaker 2>coyote hybrid they found and that was also hairless. But

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not really sure if that was a genetic condition

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<v Speaker 2>or if that was aristotism.

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<v Speaker 6>Here the hairless cuts as well, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>There are there are.

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<v Speaker 7>There's of course also alopecia.

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<v Speaker 3>That's true. And what's he got to do with it?

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<v Speaker 7>No, al alopecia. He needs great pizza down in Chicago.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought he was Irish.

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<v Speaker 7>No, No, that's a different one. That's his brother. So

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<v Speaker 7>we were talking about alopecia.

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<v Speaker 2>We were I had a friend in college who had

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<v Speaker 2>alopecia and it was completely hairless.

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<v Speaker 1>It doesn't always result in complete loss of hair though. No,

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<v Speaker 1>it does not be patches of hair loss.

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<v Speaker 6>I know that's common with some thyroid.

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<v Speaker 3>Conditions, that's right, and temper usually it can be.

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<v Speaker 7>I was just.

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<v Speaker 2>Listening to the Science Show from Australia and they had

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<v Speaker 2>a bit with Sir David Attenborough talking about what are

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<v Speaker 2>eyebrows for? And it was interesting because he talked about

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<v Speaker 2>how that pattern baldness is obviously a trait that's not

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<v Speaker 2>being prevented by evolution. I guess so being having a

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<v Speaker 2>hair on your head late in life doesn't appear to

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<v Speaker 2>be an important evolutionary trait one way or the other.

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<v Speaker 3>But eyebrows rarely go away. And so there he was

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<v Speaker 3>looking at why we have eyebrows?

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<v Speaker 7>What Goldberg?

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know. Does she not have eyebrows?

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<v Speaker 7>I don't. I've never seen eyebrows on that woman.

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<v Speaker 6>Women pluck them for fashion.

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<v Speaker 7>Reasons completely like like will be.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think not usually completely, but some get tattoos

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<v Speaker 1>and then they don't grow back. Then they end up

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<v Speaker 1>getting them tattooed on, which I don't. I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>it looks very good.

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<v Speaker 6>It's very convincing.

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<v Speaker 7>No, wow, I guess is there a I mean, it

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<v Speaker 7>wouldn't be Amrkan What would it be for for the eyebrows?

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<v Speaker 3>What would it be for what.

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<v Speaker 7>I said? It wouldn't. It wouldn't be American, which I

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<v Speaker 7>know that you two familiar with. But what would it

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<v Speaker 7>be forbrows.

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<v Speaker 3>What would it be for eyebrows?

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<v Speaker 7>What a to pay for the eyebrows?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh? I see?

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<v Speaker 7>Oh can I work with me here, folks?

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<v Speaker 3>What would a two pay for the eyebrows be? No,

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<v Speaker 3>it would definitely not be.

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<v Speaker 7>American Murkans on the show today, And so that's a

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<v Speaker 7>good word.

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<v Speaker 2>And instead of defining it, let's let people look it up,

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<v Speaker 2>because there we go. Yes, if you're over eighteenth, feel

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<v Speaker 2>free to look up mrkin.

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<v Speaker 1>Row herebrow eyebrows.

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<v Speaker 3>That's rather low brow if you follow me.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I don't know. I like I say, like

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<v Speaker 2>Karen just said, I think most people just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>paint them on.

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<v Speaker 3>Or tattoo them on, pencil them in, pencil.

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<v Speaker 2>Them and me, I just keep trimming mine before they

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<v Speaker 2>take over and become my new top hat. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got like, no, no, not not even it wants

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<v Speaker 2>to like crawl over the top of my head. It's like,

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like I'm gonna I could be the skeptical

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<v Speaker 2>Stanton Friedman.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's saying something because that man's got some eyebrows.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know if they're alien, but they're they're very powerful.

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<v Speaker 7>Knits and mites. I may be mistaken. I think that

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<v Speaker 7>the phrase nitpicking, if I'm not mistaken, it comes from

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<v Speaker 7>the baby the eggs of mites and lice, which which

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<v Speaker 7>you know, you can find in children's hair, heads and whatnot.

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<v Speaker 7>And that's where the idea of nitpicking, you know, looking

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<v Speaker 7>for little tiny details is. People would would of course

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<v Speaker 7>pick picking, you know, these eggs and lice out of

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<v Speaker 7>out of like children's hair for example.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I wasn't sure. I thought it just referred to

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<v Speaker 2>the lice themselves. But I know monkeys, it's part of

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<v Speaker 2>their grooming, like to pick the lice off, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not sure if they're eating it. I assume they are,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, or at least crushing it with their teeth.

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<v Speaker 7>And what also they do with them?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, they could just kill them, I mean, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Collect them well like dogs, like dogs bite the like

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<v Speaker 2>fleas or.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I don't think it.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually, I don't know what else they would do it.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm just saying that I guess they could throw them. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Okay, just never mind, fine whatever.

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<v Speaker 7>I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I'm

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<v Speaker 7>just asking they.

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<v Speaker 3>Could have been pinching them or squishing them. I don't know,

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<v Speaker 3>you know those.

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<v Speaker 6>Those I think that's the point. Isn't it a bonding thing?

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<v Speaker 3>Well? I think the points just to get the knits

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<v Speaker 3>off of you, you know, I mean bond I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think the bondings evolved as an important social

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<v Speaker 2>behavior among primates, you know. And I know when my

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<v Speaker 2>wife combs my back hair and looks for nets, I

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<v Speaker 2>really appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 7>And what do you do for her in return?

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<v Speaker 2>I have high serotonin levels and I make loud noises

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<v Speaker 2>that make her feel part of the pack, and you

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<v Speaker 2>paint on her part of the troop.

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<v Speaker 3>We're primates, so.

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<v Speaker 7>That's so romantic. Your wife's are lucky like a woman blake.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone's laughing and their ten hats are falling off. That's

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<v Speaker 2>probably the least gross thing we'll talk about today, honestly,

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<v Speaker 2>is my.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm off?

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<v Speaker 1>Really, I get freaked out about this one.

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<v Speaker 3>No. Mites are disgusting. Mites and lice, uh and.

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<v Speaker 1>Well the things you can't see. I mean, it's Howard Hughes,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>Well you can certainly since when you're actually infected. And

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to talk about what I know. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>let's let the expert talk about it.

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<v Speaker 1>But from my familiarity with the topic, have we got

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<v Speaker 1>personal stories of infestations?

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<v Speaker 3>No, no, no, will no, not personally. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>We were public schools here and in the South, and

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<v Speaker 2>I just imagine this is true nation. Why but every

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<v Speaker 2>now and then a school will get a life's outbreak

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<v Speaker 2>and then the next thing you know, you're putting on

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<v Speaker 2>a special shampoo for your kids or shaving your kids heads.

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<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of us.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of I mean that means, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>actually taking baths and all kinds of breaks to the

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<v Speaker 2>normal routine around here.

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<v Speaker 6>I had them once when I was about eight years old.

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<v Speaker 1>There was an outbreaking school and having long hair, they

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<v Speaker 1>spread very quickly, so I remember having the special bath.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah, they dip you in like Achilles or something or no.

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<v Speaker 1>I just remember um washing my hair and having to

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<v Speaker 1>comb them out and comb the eggs out and dead

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<v Speaker 1>creatures and wasn't very pleasant.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow, So you can imagine how uncomfortable it would be

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<v Speaker 3>for wildlife. I know.

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<v Speaker 2>One of my first big skeptical investigations that I did

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<v Speaker 2>for anybody besides myself was looking into the Jacob's creature,

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<v Speaker 2>which was a bear photo. Well, okay, It was a

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<v Speaker 2>photo of an animal in Pennsylvania a couple of years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>and the bear experts said it was a mangy bear,

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<v Speaker 2>but the bigfoot aficionados or enthusiasts believed it was probably

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<v Speaker 2>some sort of primate. And it really to me it

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<v Speaker 2>highlighted one of the big issues with unusual photos of animals,

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<v Speaker 2>especially mammals, and that's that in support of the evolutionary theory, right,

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<v Speaker 2>we look a lot alike when we don't have hair,

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<v Speaker 2>all of us, all these little animals look quite similar,

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<v Speaker 2>and even like at a skeleton level, if you have

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<v Speaker 2>a carcass, you know, if you're not an expert, it

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<v Speaker 2>can be hard to tell from a partial skeleton what

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<v Speaker 2>an animal is. And in this case, you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>had a big animal. You had lots of pictures of bears,

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<v Speaker 2>and then these strange photos that look kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>a bear, maybe something else. Some people thought they looked

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<v Speaker 2>nothing like a bear, and and part of that I

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<v Speaker 2>was looking at, you know, why was mange affecting these animals?

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<v Speaker 2>So I did a lot of research on mange at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, and it's just pretty prevalent. I think it

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<v Speaker 2>was you Ben that came up with the idea that

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<v Speaker 2>our at least first brought to my attention, the idea

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<v Speaker 2>that we'll probably be seeing more major animals because with

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<v Speaker 2>milder winters, they'll be able to survive.

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<v Speaker 3>The winner better. So we might be seeing more of

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<v Speaker 3>these kind of strange looking animals.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm not sure if that's true, because now

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<v Speaker 2>we've had some harsh winters again.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know, but.

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<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I had. I researched a Mange a fair amount

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<v Speaker 7>for my Chupacabra book coming out early next year, and

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<v Speaker 7>I ended up tracking down Mange experts and you know,

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<v Speaker 7>getting some really interesting information that a lot of people

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<v Speaker 7>apparently just had no particularly the chupacabra proponents, or at

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<v Speaker 7>least the temporary chopacabra proponents really sort of didn't seem

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<v Speaker 7>to have a clue about. So this will be interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to dominate the conversation, but I'll tell

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<v Speaker 2>you one other thing that I noticed that I had

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<v Speaker 2>a I don't want to call it a bias. I

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<v Speaker 2>had some kind of an idea that maybe the reason

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<v Speaker 2>these animals were being misidentified when I looked at these animals,

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<v Speaker 2>I saw hairless animals. I saw hairless dogs, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>hairless anything se to make people think monster. For some reason,

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, typical, right, they are, they are atypical, but

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<v Speaker 2>you know that they're not different species just because they

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<v Speaker 2>don't have hair necessarily, right, So whatever they are.

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<v Speaker 3>And I thought it was unusual.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought maybe the problem was that these are animals

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<v Speaker 2>that are being spotted by people from urban areas and

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<v Speaker 2>they're just not familiar with what wildlife looks like.

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<v Speaker 3>And I thought, well, that makes good sense.

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<v Speaker 2>I got this idea in my head that maybe it

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<v Speaker 2>would be like the you know, the city folk, you

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<v Speaker 2>know problem that city folk don't know how to identify animals.

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<v Speaker 2>But it turns out a lot of these animals are

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<v Speaker 2>being identified by people from rural areas. The woman from

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<v Speaker 2>Texas who had the hairless dogs in her yard, what's

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<v Speaker 2>her name again? Then the woman who rides around on

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<v Speaker 2>the tractor Phyllis Canyon, Phyllis Canyon, thank you, it's yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>so Phyllis Canyon, for example. She she's a rancher, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>she's familiar with what animals are out there.

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<v Speaker 3>So that was wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>That was It's not a country folks, city folk, urban

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<v Speaker 2>rural problem. It's just a classical inability to identify an

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<v Speaker 2>animal that looks different from what you expect. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that same kind of mistake is probably behind and

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<v Speaker 2>I want to say a bigfoot some of the bigfoot

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<v Speaker 2>sightings where people see a bear that's not behaving like

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<v Speaker 2>a normal bear, or looks somewhat different or standing on

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<v Speaker 2>its hind legs, and they don't see a bear, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they see something unusual that's not what they expect, and

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<v Speaker 2>they're sure, they don't know what it is, but they're

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<v Speaker 2>sure it's not a bear.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess it's not encountering an animal in that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of form. So that's all that is. It's not going

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<v Speaker 1>to be a common thing. I mean, how common is this?

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<v Speaker 1>I guess we'll find out today. Creatures to be affected

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<v Speaker 1>by by MIT's in mange. And I'm still itching just

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<v Speaker 1>thinking of it, don't you guys?

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<v Speaker 3>No, well, you know, I just got groomed though.

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<v Speaker 7>You just had your back, you know. Well, you know,

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<v Speaker 7>there's definitely a psychosomatic element to it, not that anyone's

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<v Speaker 7>imagining it, but you know, if you if you start

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<v Speaker 7>thinking about bugs and creepy Crawley's and weird weird things

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<v Speaker 7>in the bed, it's very very easy to convince yourself.

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<v Speaker 6>That's a study.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if it was in Scientific American, but

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<v Speaker 1>it was about the psychological nature of itching. We'll have

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<v Speaker 1>to track down the study if you want to mention

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<v Speaker 1>it to point people to it. Yeah, but it was

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<v Speaker 1>how there's definitely a psychological element to it.

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<v Speaker 3>Surely.

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<v Speaker 7>Well, speaking of that, let me let me throw in

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<v Speaker 7>a plug for an excellent horror film that came out

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<v Speaker 7>a couple of years back called Bug. It was directed

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<v Speaker 7>by William Friedkin. Most people probably know him for The Exorcist,

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<v Speaker 7>although I think his best film is a is a

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<v Speaker 7>film called Sorcerer, which came out a couple years back,

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<v Speaker 7>badly overlooked, but Bug. It stars actually Judd and Uh

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<v Speaker 7>and it's it's a fascinating it's very very realistic from

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<v Speaker 7>a psychological point of view, depiction of how people can

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<v Speaker 7>sort of believe that they're being infested and sort of

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<v Speaker 7>you have what what the French called folia do uh,

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<v Speaker 7>in which you know, you have two people who are

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<v Speaker 7>sharing a belief system and it's sort of a mild

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<v Speaker 7>form of mass hysteria. So it's a symptom, right, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 7>you never know, but it is a it is a

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<v Speaker 7>good scary film, and it's it's very again, it's very

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<v Speaker 7>realistic from a from a psychological point of view.

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<v Speaker 2>You talk about Folia Do in your your book Scientific

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<v Speaker 2>Paranoral Investigation, right, yeah, And I was just thinking, is

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<v Speaker 2>that is that similar to a shared delusion? Like does

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<v Speaker 2>that cover cases like where uh one that I remember

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<v Speaker 2>recently where a woman thought she was.

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<v Speaker 3>A divine I don't remember if she thought she was

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<v Speaker 3>Jesus reincarnated or something, but her husband was going along

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<v Speaker 3>with it. Does that cover that kind.

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<v Speaker 7>Of Yeah, it's very similar to that. What you find

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<v Speaker 7>is that you have one it's not just it's it's

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<v Speaker 7>often just two people, but it can actually be larger groups.

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<v Speaker 7>Usually you know, a handful, maybe no more than a

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<v Speaker 7>dozen or so, but usually it's just two or three people.

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<v Speaker 7>And usually they're related by by blood or marriage or

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<v Speaker 7>you know, close relationship. Yeah, right, if you're in Georgia,

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<v Speaker 7>who knows, or in Sydney. But but but that that's

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<v Speaker 7>usually the circumstances. And so one person will will get

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<v Speaker 7>the idea that they have you know, that they're they're

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<v Speaker 7>afflicted by something. Uh, they they are they either have

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<v Speaker 7>some something bothering them, or they have some sort of

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<v Speaker 7>special ability, or they're having some unusual, unique experience, and

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<v Speaker 7>it's it's always something that is it's really on the

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<v Speaker 7>borderline between clearly true and clearly not true. I mean

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<v Speaker 7>that is, you know, if a person claims that you

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<v Speaker 7>know that they're being attacked by, you know, a bigfoot,

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<v Speaker 7>then obviously that's not true. But if a person believes

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<v Speaker 7>they're being attacked by something that's small or invisible or

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<v Speaker 7>hard to detect, then that then to certainly another person

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<v Speaker 7>who will begin to buy into that, that could be

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<v Speaker 7>very believable more obstrutle.

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<v Speaker 2>Today we're calling doctor Barry O'Connor, evolutionary parasitologist who specializes

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<v Speaker 2>in mites. And you're also a medical veterinary acarologist.

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<v Speaker 5>Acarologist, right, that's the person who studied mice and dicks.

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<v Speaker 3>Excellent.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Well we're calling today because, well mostly because

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<v Speaker 2>we want to talk about mites, mange, license, scabies, and parasites.

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<v Speaker 2>And the tie into monsters is that a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>times these hairless animals like dogs and coyotes are being

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<v Speaker 2>found and called a monster, it turns out that later

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<v Speaker 2>that they've actually got a condition called mange. So can

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<v Speaker 2>you tell our listeners what mange is exactly?

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00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.519
<v Speaker 5>Well, mage is a skin condition, and we usually use

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<v Speaker 5>the word when we're talking about animals rather than people.

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<v Speaker 5>People get thee In some cases. The same kinds of

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<v Speaker 5>mite parasites can attack both people and animals, but in

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<v Speaker 5>humans we don't call it nange. In animals, generally, what

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00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:26.960
<v Speaker 5>happens is you get rather large populations of mites. That's

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<v Speaker 5>not generally the case in humans, although there are variants

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00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:35.839
<v Speaker 5>on the human condition that resemble what happens with mange

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00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:39.119
<v Speaker 5>and animals. But what happens is you get lots of

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<v Speaker 5>mites burrowing in the skin, and this is the normal

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00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:46.200
<v Speaker 5>thing that they do, that is their life cycle, and

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00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:50.079
<v Speaker 5>that elicits an immune response on the part of the host,

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00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:53.480
<v Speaker 5>either a human or an animal, and that usually takes

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00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:57.200
<v Speaker 5>the form of inflammation that can lead to thickening of

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00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:01.000
<v Speaker 5>the skin. The mites will often be burrowing in just

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00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:03.480
<v Speaker 5>the upper layer of the skin, but that will become

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00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:07.519
<v Speaker 5>quite thickened. That will cause blood loss to the hair

406
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.000
<v Speaker 5>follicles and so the the hair actually will fall out.

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<v Speaker 5>And this can be either very generalized over the whole

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00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:20.880
<v Speaker 5>body or just in in parts and oftentimes in particularly

409
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:25.759
<v Speaker 5>bad cases, you will you will have secondary bacterial infections

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00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:28.759
<v Speaker 5>of the skin that that will give the UH, the

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00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:33.319
<v Speaker 5>suffering animal a very bad odor, and in many cases

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00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:34.440
<v Speaker 5>this can be fatal.

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<v Speaker 1>In animals, what's the name for human nnge then, or

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00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:39.400
<v Speaker 1>does that take different forms?

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00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.759
<v Speaker 5>We well, actually the the bite that we're talking about

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<v Speaker 5>that's causing most of these cases of complete hair loss.

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<v Speaker 5>And you know this cubocover syndrome, if you want to

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00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:55.119
<v Speaker 5>call it, That is a mite called Sarcopti's scavy eye,

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00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:59.359
<v Speaker 5>and in humans the medical condition is called scabies. It's

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<v Speaker 5>a rather common skin disorder. It does tend to run

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<v Speaker 5>in kind of epidemics in that you will have high

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<v Speaker 5>incidents of scavi's in a particular population and then as

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<v Speaker 5>as most of those individuals recover. Because in humans it's

424
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:21.559
<v Speaker 5>generally a self limiting condition. Your your immune system will

425
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.920
<v Speaker 5>ultimately kill off the might, and when it does that,

426
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:30.039
<v Speaker 5>then pretty much you're going to be immune to reinfection

427
00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.359
<v Speaker 5>for the rest of your life and self. When a

428
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.240
<v Speaker 5>basically a population grows up who's never been exposed to

429
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:40.279
<v Speaker 5>the MIGHT, and then the MIGHT gets brought into that population,

430
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.160
<v Speaker 5>it can spread easily through the susceptible individuals, who will

431
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.960
<v Speaker 5>then you know, recover ultimately and the immune and then

432
00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:52.480
<v Speaker 5>the you know, the epidemic will will be over in

433
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.119
<v Speaker 5>that in that area, the same thing happened, I mean,

434
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:57.799
<v Speaker 5>the same might can cause and it's one of the

435
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:01.759
<v Speaker 5>main causes of mange in the mammals, you know, both

436
00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:05.480
<v Speaker 5>domestic and in some wild mammals. One of the things

437
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:09.480
<v Speaker 5>that we've done here is to you know, do some

438
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:16.519
<v Speaker 5>morphological work showing that the sarcoptis might on humans is

439
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:19.680
<v Speaker 5>the same mite that's on animals. This had been previously

440
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:24.640
<v Speaker 5>hypothesized back in the nineteen sixties, but using modern methods

441
00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:28.200
<v Speaker 5>we have verified that that is the case. And what

442
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:32.559
<v Speaker 5>appears to have happened is that at humans domesticated animals,

443
00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:35.559
<v Speaker 5>this might which is really ancestrally a human parasite. I

444
00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:38.720
<v Speaker 5>did some work many years ago, and this was followed

445
00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.160
<v Speaker 5>up by some work done by a student of mine,

446
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:46.079
<v Speaker 5>Hans Klompen, who's now done at Ohio State University, showing

447
00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:51.039
<v Speaker 5>that sarcoptis might actually has been with our species, that is,

448
00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:55.039
<v Speaker 5>the humans, you know, from the outset. The closest relatives

449
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:59.000
<v Speaker 5>of this might occur on our closest relatives and on

450
00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:02.359
<v Speaker 5>back through the primary lineage. So it looks like the

451
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:07.000
<v Speaker 5>sarcopts mites and their relatives have evolved with the primates.

452
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:09.599
<v Speaker 5>And then when we get the people, uh, you know,

453
00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:13.599
<v Speaker 5>because and because the mice are transmitted by direct contact,

454
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:17.920
<v Speaker 5>they really can't live too long away from a host.

455
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:21.880
<v Speaker 5>And so you know, as soon as people started having

456
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:27.359
<v Speaker 5>close contact with animals, especially the livestock, as we domesticated

457
00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:32.559
<v Speaker 5>those species with dogs, particularly, the mighte was able to

458
00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:37.599
<v Speaker 5>transfer over onto those species. And as is generally the case,

459
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:40.599
<v Speaker 5>whenever you have you know what you can consider a

460
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:45.519
<v Speaker 5>new host parasite association. It's pretty nasty. We call it

461
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:49.920
<v Speaker 5>the highly urrulent. It does a lot of damage and

462
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:54.440
<v Speaker 5>mortality can be relatively high because it's a new situation

463
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:58.200
<v Speaker 5>that you know, that host species has not had any

464
00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.960
<v Speaker 5>evolutionary history with that parasite, so it has not been

465
00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:04.880
<v Speaker 5>able to evolve any defenses, you know, like we have okay,

466
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:08.079
<v Speaker 5>because it's been sort of our might all along, and

467
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.799
<v Speaker 5>you know we have you know what we say, co

468
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:15.920
<v Speaker 5>evolved with it, so that in humans ski normal scabies

469
00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:19.599
<v Speaker 5>is an annoyance, Okay, it makes you itch, but like

470
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:22.599
<v Speaker 5>I said, it's it's self limiting and will go away.

471
00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:26.160
<v Speaker 5>And you know, you're not the worst for war, whereas

472
00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:29.720
<v Speaker 5>in animals who will get these, you know, enormous populations.

473
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:36.039
<v Speaker 5>What's happened subsequent to the transfer from humans onto domestic

474
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:40.839
<v Speaker 5>animals is that apparently the dogs then have taken it

475
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:46.440
<v Speaker 5>out into populations of their relatives, the wild canids like

476
00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:51.160
<v Speaker 5>coyotes and foxes and wolves, and they get it, and

477
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.599
<v Speaker 5>they get it really bad. And then some of them

478
00:26:54.720 --> 00:27:00.319
<v Speaker 5>have even taken it further into other mammal populations. There's

479
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:05.599
<v Speaker 5>a particularly bad condition in Australia with the sarcoptis might

480
00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:11.079
<v Speaker 5>killing off wombats, which they presumably got the mic from

481
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:14.279
<v Speaker 5>the dingo, who you know, got them from the domestic

482
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:16.119
<v Speaker 5>dogs who got them from loss the.

483
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:18.720
<v Speaker 1>Same place as that before. It looks really nasty.

484
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:20.960
<v Speaker 7>But what is the typical pattern for hair loss in

485
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:24.480
<v Speaker 7>animals with advanced stages of mange? And I've seen quite

486
00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:27.759
<v Speaker 7>a few of them in researching the chubicabre, but some

487
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:30.000
<v Speaker 7>of them seem to be completely hairless, other ones just

488
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:31.920
<v Speaker 7>seem to have some crest on the back. Can you

489
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:33.920
<v Speaker 7>can you sort of give us a typical pattern for that?

490
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:35.920
<v Speaker 5>Well, I don't know if you can say there is

491
00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:40.240
<v Speaker 5>a typical pattern for for sarcoptic mange. I've I've done

492
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:43.200
<v Speaker 5>a little more work with some some related mites that

493
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:48.119
<v Speaker 5>that parasitized rodents. They're in the same family as as sarcoptis.

494
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:53.000
<v Speaker 5>There's one we have here in squirrels, and the squirrel

495
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:57.000
<v Speaker 5>mange is very characteristic because the hair loss is almost

496
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:00.160
<v Speaker 5>always restricted to the the anter you're part of the

497
00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:03.160
<v Speaker 5>body so so, and not even the entire head, so

498
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:05.759
<v Speaker 5>sort of from the top of the head back to

499
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:08.279
<v Speaker 5>sort of mid body and then kind of down to

500
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:11.920
<v Speaker 5>the elbows and the rest of the body tends to

501
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:14.319
<v Speaker 5>remain you know, completely furt and you know, of course

502
00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:16.640
<v Speaker 5>there a our exceptions to this, but that's that's the

503
00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:19.839
<v Speaker 5>common pattern that you see with with squirrel manage. Some

504
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.599
<v Speaker 5>of the others, you know, will normally attack just around

505
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.799
<v Speaker 5>the ears. There's might it attacks cats. Cats don't seem

506
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:31.160
<v Speaker 5>to be all that susceptible to h sarcopic makes. They

507
00:28:31.160 --> 00:28:34.319
<v Speaker 5>do get it, but it's pretty rare. There's another mite

508
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:37.960
<v Speaker 5>called Noto Edris that the Noto Eddy's cat hi as

509
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:44.279
<v Speaker 5>the species that attacks cats and also uh it's apparently

510
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:48.480
<v Speaker 5>transferred from cats to rabbits because it will parasitize rabbits.

511
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:51.400
<v Speaker 5>And it also occurs in the wild in the Old

512
00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:56.640
<v Speaker 5>World tropics, on civets and mongooses and things like that. Okay,

513
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.519
<v Speaker 5>And and that one really likes the feet and and

514
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:04.400
<v Speaker 5>the u in the face. Uh, where you get the

515
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:07.519
<v Speaker 5>thickening of the skin again, and and some hair loss

516
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:11.079
<v Speaker 5>that you don't typically see, the kind of generalized hair

517
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:14.119
<v Speaker 5>loss that you see with sarcopies in dogs.

518
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:17.920
<v Speaker 3>And what actually determines whether or not mange develops.

519
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:21.319
<v Speaker 2>Does every case of this kind of parasite potentially cause

520
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:23.400
<v Speaker 2>maine or how does that work?

521
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:26.400
<v Speaker 5>Yes? Yeah, I mean that's I mean when when you

522
00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:29.839
<v Speaker 5>get the light on on its normal hosts, which in

523
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:33.799
<v Speaker 5>the case of sarcoptis would would be a human and

524
00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:37.640
<v Speaker 5>on humans, Uh, the normal place where the mites actually

525
00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:41.559
<v Speaker 5>burrow into the skin is on the extremity, so very

526
00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:48.039
<v Speaker 5>typically on the hands, okay, occasionally the feet, sometimes the genitalium.

527
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.920
<v Speaker 5>So scavies can be a sexually transmitted disease. And because

528
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:55.160
<v Speaker 5>humans aren't very well ferred, you know, we we don't

529
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.519
<v Speaker 5>notice any you know, any kind of hair loss because

530
00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:59.880
<v Speaker 5>we didn't have much to begin with they don't tend

531
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:03.559
<v Speaker 5>to attack on the head. There is a condition in

532
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:07.440
<v Speaker 5>humans that's called crusted scabies that really does kind of

533
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.400
<v Speaker 5>mimic what goes on in these bad cases of sarcoptic

534
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:16.000
<v Speaker 5>mange and animals. Because a normal case of scabies in humans,

535
00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:20.400
<v Speaker 5>the population size of the mites is anywhere from twenty

536
00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:23.759
<v Speaker 5>to thirty mites, which isn't very many. But in these

537
00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:27.720
<v Speaker 5>cases of so called crusted scabies, you will get hundreds

538
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:30.359
<v Speaker 5>of thousands of mites and you know, maybe even millions

539
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:33.160
<v Speaker 5>of mites that can you know, spread all over the body.

540
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:38.000
<v Speaker 5>And with that condition you get this thickening of the

541
00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:41.440
<v Speaker 5>skin and all the things that go along with the

542
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:46.920
<v Speaker 5>condition we see in wild well, sorry, in other mammal species.

543
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.079
<v Speaker 5>For a lot of time people wondered about this crusted

544
00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:52.119
<v Speaker 5>scabies condition and thought, well, maybe it's a different, different

545
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:54.960
<v Speaker 5>kind of might But now we know that it's actually

546
00:30:55.480 --> 00:30:58.839
<v Speaker 5>exactly the same mite. It's just that the people are different.

547
00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:04.480
<v Speaker 5>The people who get this crested scabies condition have compromised

548
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:08.319
<v Speaker 5>immune systems, so it's it's most common in u in

549
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:14.440
<v Speaker 5>the elderly, it's common in AIDS patients, and in people

550
00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:19.680
<v Speaker 5>who have had organ transplants and have had immunosuppressive therapy.

551
00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:23.599
<v Speaker 5>And one of the key tests of the fact that

552
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:26.200
<v Speaker 5>it really is the same might is that in a

553
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:31.359
<v Speaker 5>medical setting when when people with crested scabies are being treated,

554
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:35.519
<v Speaker 5>very often the physicians and nurses that are treating them

555
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:39.200
<v Speaker 5>will come down with a case of normal scabies if

556
00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:40.960
<v Speaker 5>they hadn't been previously exposed.

557
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:42.839
<v Speaker 6>Barry, I wanted to ask you a question.

558
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:45.720
<v Speaker 1>It might be a silly question, but is there a

559
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:49.279
<v Speaker 1>connection between chicken pox and scabies at all? Or do

560
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:52.359
<v Speaker 1>people confuse the appearance of the stew.

561
00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:57.319
<v Speaker 5>Well, there's no connection. Chicken pox is caused by a virus.

562
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:00.160
<v Speaker 5>But you know, in both cases, the you know, the

563
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.599
<v Speaker 5>initial lesion that you will see on the skin is

564
00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:07.799
<v Speaker 5>going to be a you know, a reddish raised uh

565
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:12.720
<v Speaker 5>you know, papule that will be very itchy, and you know,

566
00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:15.920
<v Speaker 5>all of that comes as a result of the immune

567
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.359
<v Speaker 5>response and in one case at the response to the

568
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:22.079
<v Speaker 5>virus in the skin, and on the other it's a

569
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.720
<v Speaker 5>response to the antigens that are present in the mice.

570
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:27.440
<v Speaker 6>So there's a similarity in the appearance.

571
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.160
<v Speaker 5>Then, right, babies might are actually going to be literally

572
00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:32.839
<v Speaker 5>burrowing in the skin and they make little burrows that

573
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:36.440
<v Speaker 5>run parallel to the surface of the skin. One of

574
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:41.359
<v Speaker 5>the classic diagnostic methods for you know, for for diagnosing

575
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:45.480
<v Speaker 5>scabies in the absence of actually seeing a mite, is

576
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:50.400
<v Speaker 5>to put some ink on the skin around the lesion

577
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:52.519
<v Speaker 5>and and then you know, let it soak in and

578
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.400
<v Speaker 5>then and then wipe it off the surface, and ink

579
00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:57.759
<v Speaker 5>will be actually taken up into the burrow and you

580
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:00.240
<v Speaker 5>will see these little lines then on the skin that

581
00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:03.799
<v Speaker 5>marked the path that the mic has taken.

582
00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:08.279
<v Speaker 3>I just wanted to say, gross. Yeah, I know you.

583
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:12.480
<v Speaker 5>Well, if you if you want, I can tell you

584
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:15.359
<v Speaker 5>about one of the grossest pictures I ever saw at

585
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:16.240
<v Speaker 5>a scientific meeting.

586
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:20.640
<v Speaker 2>That's saying something coming from yeah, yeah, don't don't deny

587
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:21.160
<v Speaker 2>our listeners.

588
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.119
<v Speaker 3>After that, we're ready.

589
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:27.880
<v Speaker 5>Well, no, I I went to a conference many years

590
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:32.039
<v Speaker 5>ago where the topic was you know, of human medical importance,

591
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:35.519
<v Speaker 5>and and a physician was was giving a presentation on

592
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:41.279
<v Speaker 5>uh sexual transmission of scabies, and the only photograph that

593
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:43.599
<v Speaker 5>he showed, which was sort of behind him on the

594
00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:46.920
<v Speaker 5>screen for for the entire ten minutes of his talk,

595
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:51.240
<v Speaker 5>was was this human penis with a scabies mike burrow

596
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:53.880
<v Speaker 5>going up it okay, and of.

597
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:54.519
<v Speaker 3>Course it was.

598
00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:58.559
<v Speaker 5>It was you know, like ten feet tall and anyway, Uh.

599
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:02.359
<v Speaker 3>Nice gis.

600
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:05.799
<v Speaker 6>Is that for the show notes?

601
00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Hey?

602
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:09.199
<v Speaker 7>There you go.

603
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:10.159
<v Speaker 3>Copy that.

604
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:15.519
<v Speaker 7>Is mange sometimes fatal or is it really a secondary infection?

605
00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:19.400
<v Speaker 5>Well, it's hard to say, you know, one way or another.

606
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:24.480
<v Speaker 5>With with animal mage Again, one of the things about this,

607
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:29.480
<v Speaker 5>you know history aspect, you know, the MC having really

608
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.360
<v Speaker 5>had a long period of co evolution with humans. And

609
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:37.679
<v Speaker 5>then when we look at animal mange, dogs appear to

610
00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:41.840
<v Speaker 5>have had it longer than some of the other species, uh,

611
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:46.960
<v Speaker 5>dogs and pigs, perhaps because they both suffer from it.

612
00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:51.360
<v Speaker 5>But you know, it's it's not necessarily fatal in dogs

613
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:56.119
<v Speaker 5>and pigs, and they can often actually fight it off

614
00:34:56.440 --> 00:34:58.679
<v Speaker 5>as opposed to dying from it. But then when you

615
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:03.199
<v Speaker 5>get out into the wild mammal populations, it's almost invariably fatal,

616
00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:07.679
<v Speaker 5>and you know, it can really do very serious damage

617
00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:12.320
<v Speaker 5>to the wild populations. Years ago, when I was a

618
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:16.320
<v Speaker 5>graduate student at Cornell University in New York back in

619
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:20.679
<v Speaker 5>the nineteen seventies, there was a major what we call

620
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:25.639
<v Speaker 5>ePIE zolotic of sarcoptic mange in the red foxes there

621
00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:29.760
<v Speaker 5>and the mortality was was, you know, between ninety eight

622
00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:33.679
<v Speaker 5>and ninety nine percent, so it almost drove the foxes

623
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:37.320
<v Speaker 5>to extinction, and there was even talk among the wildlife

624
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:40.840
<v Speaker 5>biologists in the state of actually trying to trap the

625
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:44.199
<v Speaker 5>few remaining ones and you know, kill them and then

626
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.679
<v Speaker 5>just go find some foxes somewhere else and reintroduce you know,

627
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:52.360
<v Speaker 5>basically completely mange free animals. I don't think they did that,

628
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:56.159
<v Speaker 5>but you know, like I say, it does tend to

629
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:59.239
<v Speaker 5>run an epizootics, and it did take you know, some

630
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:02.639
<v Speaker 5>time for the population of house to uh, you know,

631
00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:05.119
<v Speaker 5>to to rebound from you know, from that attack.

632
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:09.639
<v Speaker 3>Why is it that sometimes from well, you know, I can't.

633
00:36:09.400 --> 00:36:13.440
<v Speaker 5>Tell you whether it's the you know, the infection or

634
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:18.159
<v Speaker 5>just the the hyper immune response, you know, the fact

635
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:21.400
<v Speaker 5>that that all the body's energy is going towards, uh,

636
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:25.480
<v Speaker 5>you know, fighting off these invaders, and you know, animals

637
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:30.559
<v Speaker 5>that that have mange are clearly weakened by it during

638
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.960
<v Speaker 5>during an episootic of squirrel range that that we had

639
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:38.079
<v Speaker 5>again back when I was in graduate school, and this

640
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:42.239
<v Speaker 5>is something I personally observed, but it's also been reported

641
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:46.800
<v Speaker 5>in the in the literature of literally uh squirrels falling

642
00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:50.760
<v Speaker 5>from the trees, you know, because they have succumbed or

643
00:36:50.760 --> 00:36:53.039
<v Speaker 5>they're just unable to you know, they're so weak they

644
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:56.480
<v Speaker 5>can't they can't hold on. And I even did a

645
00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:59.440
<v Speaker 5>kind of an an informal little bit of data collecting

646
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:04.119
<v Speaker 5>that I never published because it wasn't it wasn't that rigorous,

647
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:06.920
<v Speaker 5>but you know, just just going out and looking at

648
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:14.559
<v Speaker 5>roadkill and then comparing the incidents of obvious mange conditions

649
00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:16.960
<v Speaker 5>in the dead squirrels that I would find on the road,

650
00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:21.599
<v Speaker 5>and compare that with the incident that I could observe

651
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:24.639
<v Speaker 5>in live squirrels just by you know, walking around town.

652
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:28.960
<v Speaker 5>And you know, the incidents in the dead squirrels was

653
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.360
<v Speaker 5>considerably higher than it was that I could observe in

654
00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:35.760
<v Speaker 5>the live launch, which you know, suggested that, you know,

655
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:38.840
<v Speaker 5>if you were suffering from mange, you weren't as able

656
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:41.719
<v Speaker 5>to dodge cars as well as as if you were

657
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:44.400
<v Speaker 5>completely healthy.

658
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:48.719
<v Speaker 1>That makes sense, Barry, Could you possibly tell us about

659
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:51.559
<v Speaker 1>the life cycle of the mange causing parasite.

660
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:55.760
<v Speaker 5>Well, again, if we're talking, we're talking about sarcopti scavie.

661
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:58.440
<v Speaker 5>They start as an egg, so the females lay eggs

662
00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:02.719
<v Speaker 5>in their burrows, and what hatches from the egg is

663
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:06.440
<v Speaker 5>a stage what we call the larva in the mites,

664
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:10.079
<v Speaker 5>the larva. Actually, you know, mice are arachnids, okay, like

665
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:15.199
<v Speaker 5>spiders and scorpions, and so arachnids are different from insects,

666
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:18.760
<v Speaker 5>and that they have four pairs of legs instead of three, right,

667
00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:22.360
<v Speaker 5>and they don't have antennae. Well, the mites, integs, the

668
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:26.280
<v Speaker 5>acharai as we call them, are almost unique among all

669
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:29.920
<v Speaker 5>the irachnids in that the first life stage that hatches

670
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:33.239
<v Speaker 5>from the egg has only three pairs of legs, okay,

671
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:36.239
<v Speaker 5>So it's like an insect in that respect. They haven't

672
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:38.639
<v Speaker 5>got their last pair of legs yet, and so we

673
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:43.639
<v Speaker 5>distinguish that stage by calling it the larva. And so

674
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:47.679
<v Speaker 5>the larva will live for you know, some some couple

675
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:50.159
<v Speaker 5>of days or so, and then they will molt to

676
00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:55.000
<v Speaker 5>what we call the nymph stage, or the nymph nymphs

677
00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:58.199
<v Speaker 5>get their last pair of legs, okay, so now they

678
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:02.519
<v Speaker 5>have eight legs. The mage mites have two nimphle stages.

679
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:07.039
<v Speaker 5>We call them the protonymph for the first nymph, and

680
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:09.920
<v Speaker 5>then the tritonimph or third nymph. And you will ask

681
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:13.599
<v Speaker 5>me what happened to the second one. The free living

682
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:18.320
<v Speaker 5>ancestors of a very large group of parasitic mites that

683
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:23.159
<v Speaker 5>includes these manage mites, have a specialized deutonymph or second

684
00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:26.639
<v Speaker 5>nymph that starts to disperse the species. And when these

685
00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:30.360
<v Speaker 5>are the ancestral species became a full time parasite, they

686
00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:33.920
<v Speaker 5>didn't need this special dispersing form anymore, so they just

687
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:37.880
<v Speaker 5>don't do it anymore. We can tell morphologically that the

688
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:43.960
<v Speaker 5>second nymphile stage is the tritonimph in the parasitic mites.

689
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.760
<v Speaker 5>So after that then they become adult males and females

690
00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:51.800
<v Speaker 5>look rather different. They do have a direct mating, so

691
00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:55.239
<v Speaker 5>the males and females have to get together, and after mating,

692
00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:58.039
<v Speaker 5>the females are capable of laying eggs and starting to

693
00:39:58.039 --> 00:39:58.880
<v Speaker 5>cycle over again.

694
00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:02.880
<v Speaker 2>So the whole set of nymphs are the nympho mang x.

695
00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:07.280
<v Speaker 5>I have never heard that. I'll have to write that

696
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:08.480
<v Speaker 5>down and give you credit for it.

697
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:11.880
<v Speaker 7>Okay, thanks, I think you mean blame.

698
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:15.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

699
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:18.199
<v Speaker 7>How is NaNs diagnosed? Is this sort of thing that

700
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:20.960
<v Speaker 7>a layperson can just sort of look at it and say, well,

701
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:23.000
<v Speaker 7>it doesn't have any hair it must be mange or

702
00:40:23.079 --> 00:40:24.880
<v Speaker 7>is it something that really requires no.

703
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:30.119
<v Speaker 5>I mean, the conclusive diagnosis is is you know, you

704
00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:32.119
<v Speaker 5>have to see the mite and and so you know,

705
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:36.440
<v Speaker 5>if we're talking about a domestic dog or or you

706
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:39.079
<v Speaker 5>know a cow or or a pig, uh, you know,

707
00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:42.000
<v Speaker 5>a veterinarian and would do a scraping of the skin.

708
00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:46.760
<v Speaker 5>Generally this is done with the you know, the backside

709
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:48.920
<v Speaker 5>of a scalpel, you know, and not the sharp side,

710
00:40:48.920 --> 00:40:50.519
<v Speaker 5>because you don't want to cut into the skin. You

711
00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:53.519
<v Speaker 5>just want to kind of scrape the skin. Put that

712
00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:58.440
<v Speaker 5>material then in, you know, into some usually just mineral

713
00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:00.880
<v Speaker 5>oil or something, and look at it on a microscope slide.

714
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:03.079
<v Speaker 5>And you know, then if you see the mites, well

715
00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:07.079
<v Speaker 5>you have a positive diagnosis. I mean there's you know,

716
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:10.159
<v Speaker 5>there are other things that can cause hair loss. The

717
00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:16.039
<v Speaker 5>general term for hair loss is alopecia. And you know,

718
00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:18.760
<v Speaker 5>there's again a lot of causes for that, so it's

719
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:21.960
<v Speaker 5>not necessarily going to be a mite. And also there's

720
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.559
<v Speaker 5>something I noticed with in looking at the smirrel manage

721
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:27.800
<v Speaker 5>is that many of the animals that I looked at

722
00:41:28.599 --> 00:41:31.400
<v Speaker 5>again the way these were roadkilled, I couldn't find mites

723
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:34.639
<v Speaker 5>on them, and yet they showed the very characteristic pattern

724
00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:37.519
<v Speaker 5>of hair loss that I've described for it. And so

725
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:40.920
<v Speaker 5>it looks like what happened there was that those individuals

726
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:43.559
<v Speaker 5>had in fact been able to clear the infection, that

727
00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:47.199
<v Speaker 5>the immune system had killed off all the mites, but

728
00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:52.480
<v Speaker 5>they didn't grow their hair back immediately. And because the

729
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:55.719
<v Speaker 5>hair loss tended to occur in the fall of the year,

730
00:41:56.440 --> 00:41:59.679
<v Speaker 5>these animals would be sort of half naked all winter

731
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:04.280
<v Speaker 5>along and again that would would seriously weaken them, and

732
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:08.719
<v Speaker 5>the normal pattern of molting in squirrels, you know, would

733
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:12.239
<v Speaker 5>would have them then grow their new you know, spring

734
00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:15.519
<v Speaker 5>summer coat in the in the springtime, and if they

735
00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:18.440
<v Speaker 5>did survive and get rid of the mites, they would

736
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:21.199
<v Speaker 5>grow a new you know, a new coat in the springtime,

737
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:24.239
<v Speaker 5>and you know, they would look fully furred again and

738
00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:27.440
<v Speaker 5>not not really show any any signs of the mange,

739
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:30.039
<v Speaker 5>but you know the fur. I remember looking at the

740
00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:32.960
<v Speaker 5>first few squirrels I looked at there. There weren't any

741
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:36.199
<v Speaker 5>mites there, and I was, you know, wondering about, you know,

742
00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:39.320
<v Speaker 5>what could be causing this. Uh, But then I started

743
00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:42.119
<v Speaker 5>to actually find them, you know, where I could uh,

744
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:44.159
<v Speaker 5>you know, I could actually find the mites and that

745
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:44.679
<v Speaker 5>was that.

746
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:49.000
<v Speaker 2>Are most parasites their hosts species specific?

747
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:49.960
<v Speaker 3>Is that correct?

748
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:52.639
<v Speaker 5>Well, I would say most of them are. Yeah, I

749
00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:56.280
<v Speaker 5>mean there's a lot of them that aren't. And uh uh.

750
00:42:56.679 --> 00:43:00.800
<v Speaker 5>The the sarcoptic mange miter or escape might is one

751
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:03.400
<v Speaker 5>of those that you know, if humans had had you know,

752
00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:09.280
<v Speaker 5>never become humans and never domesticated other species, that might

753
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:12.920
<v Speaker 5>probably would not have ever you know, had the opportunity

754
00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:17.119
<v Speaker 5>to get onto and establish itself on some other hosts.

755
00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:22.199
<v Speaker 5>The few cases, again this code goes back to noncompums

756
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:24.559
<v Speaker 5>evolutionary work that he did with these, he was able

757
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:28.880
<v Speaker 5>to show that host switches in the entire family Psychoptady

758
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:33.119
<v Speaker 5>are fairly rare, but he could point to several cases

759
00:43:33.239 --> 00:43:37.719
<v Speaker 5>of clear host switches where you know, closely related my

760
00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:43.079
<v Speaker 5>species don't occur on closely related hosts. And since the

761
00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:46.599
<v Speaker 5>most of the species in the Maine mite family Psychoptody

762
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:49.679
<v Speaker 5>are parasites on bat, you know, there's a few cases

763
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.559
<v Speaker 5>where species have moved from one of the major groups

764
00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:56.599
<v Speaker 5>of bats onto the other one. And there's some cases

765
00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:01.880
<v Speaker 5>where they've moved from bats onto rodents that live in

766
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:05.559
<v Speaker 5>the trees. So the squirrel made might which now really

767
00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:08.920
<v Speaker 5>lives only on squirrels, has an ancestry that that goes

768
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:12.079
<v Speaker 5>back to the bat hosts. And there's a few that

769
00:44:12.119 --> 00:44:16.119
<v Speaker 5>are on mice and rats as well, but these these

770
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:19.559
<v Speaker 5>are often found on oar boreal species.

771
00:44:19.639 --> 00:44:21.920
<v Speaker 2>I read a few years ago about the relationship between

772
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:25.679
<v Speaker 2>guerrilla lies and human genital lize, and I was wondering, what,

773
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:28.639
<v Speaker 2>what can the genetics of parasites tell us about the

774
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:30.119
<v Speaker 2>evolution of the host animals.

775
00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:32.880
<v Speaker 5>Well, there's a there's a long interesting history and in

776
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:36.639
<v Speaker 5>parasitology about uh, you know, what what we call co

777
00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:39.440
<v Speaker 5>evolutionary patterns, and and you know, if you if you

778
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:43.599
<v Speaker 5>go back one hundred years, it was generally thought that,

779
00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:47.760
<v Speaker 5>you know, every parasite was host specific and that every

780
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:51.280
<v Speaker 5>parasite had sort of evolved with its hoast. Okay, And

781
00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:56.239
<v Speaker 5>so you could use then the pattern relationships among the

782
00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:59.320
<v Speaker 5>parasites to be sort of a mirror, if you will,

783
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:03.199
<v Speaker 5>of the relationships among the hosts. Well, now we know that,

784
00:45:03.239 --> 00:45:06.800
<v Speaker 5>you know, life is never so so uncomplicated and pretty.

785
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:09.920
<v Speaker 5>You know, what we call host shifting or column of

786
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.440
<v Speaker 5>new hosts does occur, you know, regularly, and so what

787
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:16.840
<v Speaker 5>we actually see when we look at these patterns is

788
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:22.920
<v Speaker 5>kind of historical associations like the scabies might and humans,

789
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:29.000
<v Speaker 5>and then relatively newer associations that are the result of colonization. Okay,

790
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:32.639
<v Speaker 5>So like the scabies might on on dogs okay, or

791
00:45:33.119 --> 00:45:37.760
<v Speaker 5>the squirrel might again coming from or having its closest relatives,

792
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.320
<v Speaker 5>you know, not on other rodents, but on on that.

793
00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:43.760
<v Speaker 1>Getting back to mange, how prevalence is mange? Is there

794
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:46.079
<v Speaker 1>any place on Earth where mange or life.

795
00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:48.320
<v Speaker 6>Do not exist?

796
00:45:48.679 --> 00:45:48.960
<v Speaker 4>Oh?

797
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:54.400
<v Speaker 5>Goodness, well, probably anywhere where people are and where dogs are.

798
00:45:54.679 --> 00:45:58.480
<v Speaker 5>You know, you're you're going to find the parasites. You know,

799
00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:03.159
<v Speaker 5>the the human and scabies does occur in every human population.

800
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:05.239
<v Speaker 5>Like I say, it kind of comes and goes in

801
00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:09.400
<v Speaker 5>these waves or ePIE zolotics in a particular place. So

802
00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:12.920
<v Speaker 5>you know, I remember owhen was it in the There

803
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:16.679
<v Speaker 5>was a big epidemic in many parts of the world

804
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.920
<v Speaker 5>back in the late nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies, So

805
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:22.960
<v Speaker 5>there were a lot of case reports. You know, I

806
00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:26.280
<v Speaker 5>made it into the newspapers, and you know, then again

807
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:29.960
<v Speaker 5>it kind of faded away, as it does, but that

808
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.400
<v Speaker 5>doesn't mean it, you know, it went extinct. It just

809
00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:38.719
<v Speaker 5>you know, went into other populations where not necessarily urban populations.

810
00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:42.440
<v Speaker 5>I had a colleague who was working in Madagascar and

811
00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:46.119
<v Speaker 5>you know, had come back and came to see me

812
00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:49.480
<v Speaker 5>and showed showed me a spot on his hand and said,

813
00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:51.599
<v Speaker 5>you know, is this what I think it is? And

814
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:54.280
<v Speaker 5>I said, well, probably, Why do you think so? And

815
00:46:54.280 --> 00:46:56.920
<v Speaker 5>he said, well because one of the local people I

816
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:01.400
<v Speaker 5>was working with had scabies and well, anyway, there was

817
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:04.119
<v Speaker 5>some handshaking going on and you know, and and he

818
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:05.079
<v Speaker 5>had become infected.

819
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:08.800
<v Speaker 7>You we've talked some about the physical signs of mange,

820
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:11.159
<v Speaker 7>like the hair loss and whatever else. Are there certain

821
00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:16.039
<v Speaker 7>behavior characteristics that are typical of banging animals? For example,

822
00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:19.920
<v Speaker 7>anything that they do that would be a side effect

823
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:22.519
<v Speaker 7>of the mange that wouldn't be you know, a physical

824
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:25.159
<v Speaker 7>you know, that wouldn't be obvious in physical appearance.

825
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:28.400
<v Speaker 5>Well, they're going to clearly be itchy, you know, they will.

826
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:31.280
<v Speaker 5>They will scratch a lot because you know, the the

827
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:34.800
<v Speaker 5>the mightes do irritate them. Uh probably in the in

828
00:47:34.840 --> 00:47:38.480
<v Speaker 5>the more advanced stages, that's going to be less apparent,

829
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:42.280
<v Speaker 5>just because the animals are going to be basically too weak, uh,

830
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:45.480
<v Speaker 5>you know, to to do a lot of scratching, you know,

831
00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:49.559
<v Speaker 5>they they will uh Again in looking at at some

832
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:54.440
<v Speaker 5>of these uh Cubicaba accounts, you know, of the attacking

833
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:57.480
<v Speaker 5>of livestock and the like, because these animals are are

834
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:00.280
<v Speaker 5>greatly weakened, you know, they're they're going to have a

835
00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:03.920
<v Speaker 5>hard time hunting. And because we're talking about carnivores here,

836
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:07.880
<v Speaker 5>that the dog family primarily, that they may be sort

837
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:12.000
<v Speaker 5>of forced into, you know, attacking livestock because they're they're

838
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:16.280
<v Speaker 5>easier than running down a rabbit or or a deer

839
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:16.800
<v Speaker 5>or something.

840
00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:19.559
<v Speaker 2>Can you tell us what your thoughts are about the

841
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:24.159
<v Speaker 2>media's interpretation of this what seems like a common phenomena.

842
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:28.159
<v Speaker 5>Well, you know again, it's it's the combination of of

843
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:32.760
<v Speaker 5>myth meets you know, meets reality. Uh. And you know,

844
00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:36.079
<v Speaker 5>as as is often the case when myth meets reality,

845
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:39.639
<v Speaker 5>there there is a rational explanation for, uh, you know,

846
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:42.119
<v Speaker 5>for for what people are seeing. If the myth is

847
00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:46.880
<v Speaker 5>coming out of a population who's ignorant of the of

848
00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:49.960
<v Speaker 5>the medical condition or or whatever. I mean, it's you know,

849
00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:53.960
<v Speaker 5>similar to oh, you know different uh, you know, human

850
00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:59.159
<v Speaker 5>anomalities that that you know get genetic uh diseases and

851
00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:03.000
<v Speaker 5>things that have physical manifestations that are you know, offering

852
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:06.079
<v Speaker 5>interpret it in in some cultures, in you know, in

853
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:09.440
<v Speaker 5>some sort of mythic way. But it's you know, I

854
00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:11.639
<v Speaker 5>I have you know, I did check. You know a

855
00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:14.239
<v Speaker 5>lot of the pictures that are floating around on the

856
00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:20.280
<v Speaker 5>internet of super cabares, and aside from the obvious paintings

857
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:24.519
<v Speaker 5>and drawings of monsters coming from the imagination, anything that

858
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:27.519
<v Speaker 5>looked like a real animal sure looked like a mengi

859
00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:30.119
<v Speaker 5>coyote or a dog or a fox to me.

860
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:33.079
<v Speaker 6>And just going back to sorry, did you have a question?

861
00:49:33.159 --> 00:49:33.559
<v Speaker 6>Play call?

862
00:49:33.639 --> 00:49:35.440
<v Speaker 3>Well, I have lots of questions. We keep going there.

863
00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:38.199
<v Speaker 1>Well, I was going to move back to scabies again

864
00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:39.119
<v Speaker 1>unless you wanted to.

865
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:41.280
<v Speaker 3>And who doesn't want to talk about scabies?

866
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:44.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I didn't think I'd ever be asking questions like this.

867
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:46.320
<v Speaker 6>Let's go back to scabies.

868
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:48.599
<v Speaker 5>Are you are you all itching about now? I mean

869
00:49:48.599 --> 00:49:49.320
<v Speaker 5>I usually have that.

870
00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:52.360
<v Speaker 6>I am, And I want to ask you about that.

871
00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:54.480
<v Speaker 1>I've read a study a number of years ago in

872
00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:57.920
<v Speaker 1>a science magazine about the sort of psychosomatic aspects of

873
00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:00.000
<v Speaker 1>itching and talking about this topic.

874
00:50:00.199 --> 00:50:01.079
<v Speaker 6>What do you know about that?

875
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:06.000
<v Speaker 5>Well? I laughed, because there have been so many you know,

876
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:11.760
<v Speaker 5>sort of personal experiences with things like this. One of

877
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:14.880
<v Speaker 5>one of the things I learned early on is to

878
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:21.039
<v Speaker 5>sort of avoid shop talk in a restaurant. Uh yeah.

879
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:24.719
<v Speaker 5>I was at a parasitology meeting once and you know,

880
00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:27.880
<v Speaker 5>with having dinner with some colleagues and just talking about

881
00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:30.159
<v Speaker 5>things we normally talk about, and all of a sudden

882
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:32.199
<v Speaker 5>kind of looking up and seeing there was no one

883
00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:37.800
<v Speaker 5>else left in the restaurant. You know, we were We

884
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:41.199
<v Speaker 5>were not actually asked to leave or anything. But it's

885
00:50:41.239 --> 00:50:43.159
<v Speaker 5>just sort of second nature to you know, those of

886
00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:46.320
<v Speaker 5>us in the in the business, but clearly is you know,

887
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:49.039
<v Speaker 5>is very troublesome to a lot of people.

888
00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:52.039
<v Speaker 6>Does it affect you or not anymore?

889
00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:54.920
<v Speaker 5>You know, I've been at this for you know, thirty

890
00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:58.519
<v Speaker 5>years or so and and have never actually had scabies myself.

891
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:00.840
<v Speaker 5>You know, don't don't look for to the day when

892
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:02.719
<v Speaker 5>I you know, when I might Uh.

893
00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:12.119
<v Speaker 2>Yes, okay, I was going to do that and I

894
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:12.760
<v Speaker 2>get to save it.

895
00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:13.719
<v Speaker 3>Yet it would.

896
00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:18.800
<v Speaker 5>There's there's there's a lot, you know, a lot of

897
00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:21.679
<v Speaker 5>the headline and you know we've been through that with

898
00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:24.559
<v Speaker 5>kids and all this, uh I mean, that's a completely

899
00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:26.480
<v Speaker 5>different story. But and and there are you know, there

900
00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:29.960
<v Speaker 5>are other mites that that do bother people and not

901
00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:33.920
<v Speaker 5>causing mage or or Scavi's like conditions, but but they

902
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:36.440
<v Speaker 5>just bite. And I deal with a lot of that,

903
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:42.400
<v Speaker 5>and then we get this condition that's that's called delusional parasitosis,

904
00:51:42.440 --> 00:51:45.719
<v Speaker 5>where you know, people have the feeling that that things

905
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:49.159
<v Speaker 5>are you know, on their skin or or biting them

906
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:52.320
<v Speaker 5>that they can't see. And because if they can't see it,

907
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:54.840
<v Speaker 5>it must be too small and therefore it must be

908
00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:57.840
<v Speaker 5>a mite. Then I get a lot of questions from

909
00:51:57.880 --> 00:52:00.039
<v Speaker 5>the public that you know, again, the first thing I

910
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:01.920
<v Speaker 5>I have to tell people is, you know, I'm not

911
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:04.519
<v Speaker 5>a medical doctor, and you know, and I can't diagnose

912
00:52:05.239 --> 00:52:08.000
<v Speaker 5>a condition that if they can actually show me a

913
00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:11.280
<v Speaker 5>specimen that's the MTE, and I can identify it. And

914
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:13.840
<v Speaker 5>and in cases where they can, then we can usually

915
00:52:14.039 --> 00:52:16.639
<v Speaker 5>based on what it is, figure out what the source is.

916
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:19.800
<v Speaker 5>You know, for example, there are charasenic mites that live

917
00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:23.760
<v Speaker 5>in the nests of birds and small mammals, you know,

918
00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:27.159
<v Speaker 5>rats and mice, and you know, if the nest is

919
00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:31.480
<v Speaker 5>in the house or around the house, and if especially

920
00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:33.719
<v Speaker 5>if if it's a bird nest and the young birds

921
00:52:33.719 --> 00:52:36.519
<v Speaker 5>have left the nest. The mites will come in the

922
00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:38.880
<v Speaker 5>house and bite people. And those are the easy ones

923
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:41.039
<v Speaker 5>because you know, people will bring in you know, this

924
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:43.280
<v Speaker 5>might and I can say, oh, yes, that's that's a

925
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:46.400
<v Speaker 5>Dominus's galty, that's might. It comes in bird nests and

926
00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:48.920
<v Speaker 5>you just have to find the bird nest and remove

927
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:51.599
<v Speaker 5>it and they'll take care of your problem, you know.

928
00:52:51.679 --> 00:52:54.320
<v Speaker 5>But it's when they come in with you know, boxes

929
00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:58.239
<v Speaker 5>full of hair and you know, pieces of paper covered

930
00:52:58.239 --> 00:53:01.280
<v Speaker 5>with Scotch tape that they've rubbed all over their body,

931
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:06.000
<v Speaker 5>and or you know, plastic bags inside plastic bags inside

932
00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:10.320
<v Speaker 5>plastic bags, tonite them, you know, with a kind of

933
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:13.800
<v Speaker 5>insect part in the last bag. You know, these are

934
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:17.599
<v Speaker 5>people who have kind of let the feeling kind of

935
00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:20.559
<v Speaker 5>take control of their lives. And there are websites you

936
00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:23.199
<v Speaker 5>know that I can refer people to that discuss this.

937
00:53:23.480 --> 00:53:28.079
<v Speaker 5>I always, you know, people are always saying, don't I'm

938
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:30.679
<v Speaker 5>not crazy, you know? Or do you think I'm crazy? Okay?

939
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:33.079
<v Speaker 5>And I don't think they're crazy, of course not. They're

940
00:53:33.079 --> 00:53:37.320
<v Speaker 5>they're obviously having, you know, some sort of sensation, and

941
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:40.800
<v Speaker 5>you know, the the the idea is to try to

942
00:53:40.840 --> 00:53:43.719
<v Speaker 5>find out what is the course of the sensation. And

943
00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:47.000
<v Speaker 5>I try to tell them that there's many things other

944
00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:50.039
<v Speaker 5>than you know, a mite or a small insect biting

945
00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:53.159
<v Speaker 5>them that could be causing those sensations, and that they

946
00:53:53.199 --> 00:53:57.519
<v Speaker 5>certainly need to see, uh you know, a dermatologist right

947
00:53:57.599 --> 00:54:01.480
<v Speaker 5>who can literally, you know, could diagnose skapies or something

948
00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:04.440
<v Speaker 5>like that. But you know, I kind of tell people

949
00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:07.719
<v Speaker 5>that it's a very common, uh phenomenon. I mean, I

950
00:54:07.719 --> 00:54:11.039
<v Speaker 5>do introduce them to the idea of delusional parasitosis, and

951
00:54:11.800 --> 00:54:14.519
<v Speaker 5>in an offhand sort of way, not by jumping back

952
00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:16.760
<v Speaker 5>and saying you're crazy, That's the last thing I ever

953
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:22.119
<v Speaker 5>want to do, but to tell them that there's possible,

954
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:27.760
<v Speaker 5>you know, psychosomatic reasons for these sensations, et cetera, et cetera.

955
00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:30.440
<v Speaker 5>So you know, that is something that when you're in

956
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:32.760
<v Speaker 5>this business, you know, you just learn how to deal

957
00:54:32.800 --> 00:54:35.679
<v Speaker 5>with it because you are going to have people coming

958
00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:37.920
<v Speaker 5>to you with with questions about it.

959
00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:41.440
<v Speaker 1>Barry, do you work with dematologists.

960
00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:44.920
<v Speaker 5>Not directly, I do. I work closely with the University

961
00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:49.519
<v Speaker 5>hospital here with the diagnostic lab people. I've I've done

962
00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:52.559
<v Speaker 5>some training sessions with them because they they will, you know,

963
00:54:52.719 --> 00:54:55.159
<v Speaker 5>somebody comes in with a tick bike and they have

964
00:54:55.320 --> 00:54:58.679
<v Speaker 5>the tick. The folks there have been trained to identify

965
00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:01.760
<v Speaker 5>the ticks that occur in the local areas. Because ticks

966
00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:04.679
<v Speaker 5>are known to transmit a number of pretty nasty diseases

967
00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:08.000
<v Speaker 5>to humans. It's kind of crucial to know what species

968
00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:11.280
<v Speaker 5>has bitten you, just in case you start showing, you know,

969
00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:13.639
<v Speaker 5>some symptoms. But if somebody's been traveling and they come

970
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:16.440
<v Speaker 5>back and they've brought something back with them, then these

971
00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:18.519
<v Speaker 5>folks don't know what it is. And that's where I

972
00:55:18.519 --> 00:55:21.239
<v Speaker 5>get involved with them and try to, you know, try

973
00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:21.920
<v Speaker 5>to pin it down.

974
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:24.719
<v Speaker 7>You were talking about some of your current research. What's

975
00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:27.880
<v Speaker 7>what's the hot topic these days in parasite research. I

976
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:30.280
<v Speaker 7>have to I have to confess it's not something that

977
00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:33.800
<v Speaker 7>I'm really tea into. What's cutting edge these days.

978
00:55:33.400 --> 00:55:35.639
<v Speaker 5>I can tell you what we're working on right now.

979
00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:36.920
<v Speaker 7>I mean, yeah, what are you working on.

980
00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.199
<v Speaker 5>We're working on house dust mites, which maybe you've heard of.

981
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:46.559
<v Speaker 5>House dust mites are quite fascinating because the medical connection.

982
00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:49.920
<v Speaker 5>It was discovered back in the nineteen sixties that people

983
00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:54.280
<v Speaker 5>who are allergic to house dust, the vast majority of

984
00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:57.840
<v Speaker 5>them actually turn out to be allergic to the mites

985
00:55:57.880 --> 00:56:00.519
<v Speaker 5>that live in house dust more so than any of

986
00:56:00.559 --> 00:56:03.599
<v Speaker 5>the other components that are that are in there. And

987
00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:06.920
<v Speaker 5>what we're doing is is we've actually been able to

988
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:12.320
<v Speaker 5>show that the dustmites have done something almost unique in

989
00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:16.039
<v Speaker 5>their evolutionary history, and that is they're they're not parasitic.

990
00:56:16.119 --> 00:56:18.400
<v Speaker 5>I mean, they're they're living in our houses, in our beds,

991
00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:21.880
<v Speaker 5>they live. Uh, other species live in the nests of

992
00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:25.280
<v Speaker 5>birds and mammals, and some of them even get in

993
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:29.280
<v Speaker 5>and interest stored food products. Now, but that their ancestors

994
00:56:29.320 --> 00:56:34.199
<v Speaker 5>were permanent parasites that lived on birds. And this idea

995
00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:38.119
<v Speaker 5>that I mean, there's there's an old adage, you know,

996
00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:42.320
<v Speaker 5>once a parasite, always a parasite, which implies that in

997
00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:48.360
<v Speaker 5>the evolution of the parasitic association, Uh, the parasite is

998
00:56:48.360 --> 00:56:52.559
<v Speaker 5>basically giving up, you know, its ability to live anywhere

999
00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:57.719
<v Speaker 5>but on that host. Okay, so it's its hosts. Then

1000
00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:01.840
<v Speaker 5>completely becomes its habitat, and you know, it adapts to

1001
00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:04.760
<v Speaker 5>that habitat to the point where it really can't live

1002
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:07.960
<v Speaker 5>anywhere else, and you know, certainly not going back to

1003
00:57:08.119 --> 00:57:11.639
<v Speaker 5>you know, being you know, a non parasite and living

1004
00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:14.639
<v Speaker 5>a free living existence. But our work on the dust mites,

1005
00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:19.639
<v Speaker 5>and this has been done with especially in collaboration with

1006
00:57:20.599 --> 00:57:24.199
<v Speaker 5>my colleague Powell Claimop, and we've been looking at DNA

1007
00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:29.320
<v Speaker 5>from the dust mites and a whole bunch of related mites,

1008
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:33.599
<v Speaker 5>both parasitic and non parasitic mites, and our results, which

1009
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:37.280
<v Speaker 5>I'm actually going to present at an international conference here

1010
00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:40.880
<v Speaker 5>next week in Brazil, to clearly show that the dust

1011
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:46.039
<v Speaker 5>mights have evolved from an ancestor that was a full

1012
00:57:46.119 --> 00:57:50.760
<v Speaker 5>time permanent parasite living on bird. The interesting thing, there's

1013
00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:53.960
<v Speaker 5>a couple of really fascinating things that have come out

1014
00:57:53.960 --> 00:57:58.360
<v Speaker 5>of that, you know, with that evolutionary history, and one

1015
00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:01.199
<v Speaker 5>is that the group that's death knites are related to

1016
00:58:02.559 --> 00:58:07.000
<v Speaker 5>are usually called feathermites. They mostly live on the feathers

1017
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:09.639
<v Speaker 5>of birds where they're they're really innocuous, I mean, they're

1018
00:58:09.679 --> 00:58:13.599
<v Speaker 5>parasites only in the sense really that they're living their

1019
00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:16.480
<v Speaker 5>entire life on the host and they can't generally live

1020
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:19.800
<v Speaker 5>off the host. But they're not really doing anything bad

1021
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:22.840
<v Speaker 5>to it. Okay, there's there's a you know, a definitional

1022
00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:28.039
<v Speaker 5>problem here that that most parasitologists would define a parasite

1023
00:58:28.079 --> 00:58:31.519
<v Speaker 5>as as you know, something that not only you know,

1024
00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:36.079
<v Speaker 5>lives on a house, but actually does damage to it.

1025
00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:39.519
<v Speaker 5>And these featamites are are not doing that. They're they're

1026
00:58:39.559 --> 00:58:43.400
<v Speaker 5>not really eating the feathers. Uh. Some of them moved

1027
00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:45.920
<v Speaker 5>on to the skin, and those are really classic parasites

1028
00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:48.480
<v Speaker 5>where they're they're doing some damage there. But the ones

1029
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:52.000
<v Speaker 5>that live on feathers are innocuous at the worst, and

1030
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:55.159
<v Speaker 5>perhaps even beneficial in some cases because we know that

1031
00:58:55.280 --> 00:59:00.280
<v Speaker 5>they'll eat fungi and perhaps uh, bacteria and and other

1032
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:04.119
<v Speaker 5>things that are potentially pathogenic to the bird host. That

1033
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:07.400
<v Speaker 5>you didn't get really big populations of these things living

1034
00:59:07.400 --> 00:59:09.599
<v Speaker 5>on a bird that you know that the bird doesn't care.

1035
00:59:09.719 --> 00:59:13.920
<v Speaker 5>I mean, they don't do anything really to try to

1036
00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:18.960
<v Speaker 5>reduce the populations of these feather inhabiting mites anyway. But

1037
00:59:19.079 --> 00:59:21.079
<v Speaker 5>somewhere along the line, you know, one of these mites

1038
00:59:21.159 --> 00:59:26.360
<v Speaker 5>did to developed the ability to digest keratin, which is

1039
00:59:26.440 --> 00:59:32.800
<v Speaker 5>the protein that makes up feathers and hair, and actually

1040
00:59:33.679 --> 00:59:40.519
<v Speaker 5>it's what largely makes our skin waterproof because carroten builds

1041
00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:43.360
<v Speaker 5>up in our skin cells and then as they they

1042
00:59:43.519 --> 00:59:46.480
<v Speaker 5>die and they're replaced from below. So we have this,

1043
00:59:46.760 --> 00:59:48.920
<v Speaker 5>you know, the outer layer of our skin. You know

1044
00:59:48.920 --> 00:59:50.920
<v Speaker 5>what what peels off, right when you have a sunburn,

1045
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:55.320
<v Speaker 5>that's largely keratin, and it's a it's a protective layer.

1046
00:59:56.280 --> 01:00:01.480
<v Speaker 5>And keratin is a really interesting pro because it's a

1047
01:00:01.599 --> 01:00:04.719
<v Speaker 5>very strong protein. It has a lot of I mean,

1048
01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:08.320
<v Speaker 5>we can get into into the chemistry here, but basically

1049
01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:11.199
<v Speaker 5>it's it's such a strong protein and that's what makes

1050
01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:14.360
<v Speaker 5>it right for making stuff like hair and feathers that

1051
01:00:14.679 --> 01:00:16.920
<v Speaker 5>you know, are difficult to break down. So if you

1052
01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:20.440
<v Speaker 5>think about it, when an animal dies, right, and you

1053
01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:25.199
<v Speaker 5>know you can watch the decomposition process, you know what's

1054
01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:27.920
<v Speaker 5>the last to go, right, the last to go or

1055
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:30.440
<v Speaker 5>sort of the bones and the hair or the feathers

1056
01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:33.880
<v Speaker 5>if it's a bird, because they're the most indigestible, and

1057
01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:37.039
<v Speaker 5>there are so few animals that are specialized or even

1058
01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:41.360
<v Speaker 5>microbes that are specialized to digest that that material. Well,

1059
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:45.159
<v Speaker 5>somehow again one of these my ancestors evolve the ability

1060
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:48.440
<v Speaker 5>to digest keratin, and we have species that now believe

1061
01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:52.400
<v Speaker 5>it or not live inside the feathers. Okay, feathers are

1062
01:00:52.519 --> 01:00:55.360
<v Speaker 5>hollow at it's the bottom part of the feathers on

1063
01:00:55.400 --> 01:00:59.320
<v Speaker 5>the inside. And then there's a couple of species that

1064
01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:03.960
<v Speaker 5>are known from parrots, and we've discovered quite a number

1065
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:07.800
<v Speaker 5>of new ones that are living in both the parrots

1066
01:01:07.800 --> 01:01:12.480
<v Speaker 5>and in woodpeckers. They're related ones living in hummingbirds on

1067
01:01:12.559 --> 01:01:16.199
<v Speaker 5>the inside of their feathers, and uh, these are clearly

1068
01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:19.239
<v Speaker 5>eating the feather material from the inside. I mean, they're

1069
01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:22.840
<v Speaker 5>not eating through it and destroying the feather because that

1070
01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:25.760
<v Speaker 5>would not be productive, right it would it would, you know,

1071
01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:28.000
<v Speaker 5>cause dam you know, too much damage to the host.

1072
01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:30.679
<v Speaker 5>But if you think about you might that that can

1073
01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:33.920
<v Speaker 5>eat keratin and you know, and has to disperse, like

1074
01:01:34.039 --> 01:01:37.119
<v Speaker 5>coming out of the feather and you know, getting onto

1075
01:01:37.440 --> 01:01:42.239
<v Speaker 5>another bird. Well, the opportunities for that are well, sort

1076
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:45.760
<v Speaker 5>of from parent to nestling. Okay, if you're in the nest,

1077
01:01:46.159 --> 01:01:48.760
<v Speaker 5>you can do it that way, or or when adult

1078
01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:52.039
<v Speaker 5>birds are mating. I mean that's a relatively brief encounter.

1079
01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:57.000
<v Speaker 5>But so mostly probably this this uh transfer is occrying

1080
01:01:57.000 --> 01:01:59.519
<v Speaker 5>in the nests. And so if one of these you know,

1081
01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:02.760
<v Speaker 5>might let's just say that can eat keraten, he's in

1082
01:02:02.800 --> 01:02:05.119
<v Speaker 5>the process of moving from bird to bird and it

1083
01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:09.280
<v Speaker 5>falls off. Okay, Well that's a bad thing generally speaking,

1084
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:13.639
<v Speaker 5>because mostly you know, if you're a feather mite and

1085
01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:16.320
<v Speaker 5>you really need to live on the feathers and eat

1086
01:02:16.440 --> 01:02:19.760
<v Speaker 5>feather oil, and you know, microbes and things like that.

1087
01:02:20.119 --> 01:02:21.960
<v Speaker 5>You're not going to find that down in the nest,

1088
01:02:22.199 --> 01:02:25.440
<v Speaker 5>all right. But if you're a carroten eating mite, what

1089
01:02:25.519 --> 01:02:28.519
<v Speaker 5>you do if you fall down into the nest is

1090
01:02:28.639 --> 01:02:32.440
<v Speaker 5>find yourself surrounded with food. Okay, if you've ever looked

1091
01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:35.599
<v Speaker 5>inside a bird nest after the young bird's grown up

1092
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:39.199
<v Speaker 5>and the lab there's all this white, fluffy, dusty material

1093
01:02:39.280 --> 01:02:42.400
<v Speaker 5>down in there, and all that is pure keratin. And

1094
01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:46.480
<v Speaker 5>that comes because when baby birds grow out their new feathers,

1095
01:02:47.239 --> 01:02:50.079
<v Speaker 5>they're surrounded by what's called a feather sheath, and that

1096
01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:52.920
<v Speaker 5>feather sheath is made out of caroten and it just

1097
01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:55.639
<v Speaker 5>sort of slups off as the feather grows out and

1098
01:02:55.800 --> 01:02:57.960
<v Speaker 5>kind of builds up in the nest. And so you're

1099
01:02:57.960 --> 01:03:01.480
<v Speaker 5>a carrot eating mic you fall into the nest and

1100
01:03:01.559 --> 01:03:03.639
<v Speaker 5>you don't have a problem with food. Okay, So as

1101
01:03:03.679 --> 01:03:09.039
<v Speaker 5>long as you're able to survive now the temperature changes

1102
01:03:09.079 --> 01:03:12.320
<v Speaker 5>and humidity changes, and you're able to get back on

1103
01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:15.719
<v Speaker 5>a bird when it's time to disperse, well, you've set

1104
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:18.920
<v Speaker 5>yourself up for possibly a completely new lifestyle. And that's

1105
01:03:18.920 --> 01:03:21.360
<v Speaker 5>been rather successful because there are quite a number of

1106
01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:23.920
<v Speaker 5>species in this group now that are living in nest

1107
01:03:23.960 --> 01:03:26.920
<v Speaker 5>Snuveral of those have gotten into human habitations, right, and

1108
01:03:26.920 --> 01:03:29.639
<v Speaker 5>they live in our homes, and they're eating the same

1109
01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:31.559
<v Speaker 5>sort of stuff. I mean, they're eating our dead skin

1110
01:03:31.719 --> 01:03:34.639
<v Speaker 5>for the most part. You know, they can eat other things.

1111
01:03:34.639 --> 01:03:37.639
<v Speaker 5>They can eat fungi, and they can eat again. Some

1112
01:03:37.719 --> 01:03:40.559
<v Speaker 5>of them have gotten into stored food products, grains and

1113
01:03:40.639 --> 01:03:42.800
<v Speaker 5>the light. But they're still kind of doing what their

1114
01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:47.199
<v Speaker 5>ancestors did. And you know, to me, the most fascinating

1115
01:03:47.320 --> 01:03:51.760
<v Speaker 5>aspect of this whole death might evolution and the connection

1116
01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:55.320
<v Speaker 5>to the medical problems caused by death mines is that

1117
01:03:55.880 --> 01:04:01.360
<v Speaker 5>the allergists have actually identified well over twenty different allergens,

1118
01:04:01.480 --> 01:04:04.679
<v Speaker 5>different proteins that come from dust mites that people can

1119
01:04:04.719 --> 01:04:08.559
<v Speaker 5>be allergic to. But the one allergen that the majority

1120
01:04:08.599 --> 01:04:12.000
<v Speaker 5>of people are allergic to and the one that causes

1121
01:04:12.079 --> 01:04:15.360
<v Speaker 5>the most problems, it's the same one. And so people

1122
01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:20.320
<v Speaker 5>were wondering what this was, okay, And the early studies

1123
01:04:20.480 --> 01:04:25.800
<v Speaker 5>actually found that this particular allergen was concentrated not in

1124
01:04:25.880 --> 01:04:29.880
<v Speaker 5>the mites bodies, but in the mite feces. Okay, So

1125
01:04:29.960 --> 01:04:31.719
<v Speaker 5>it's coming out the back end of the mite as

1126
01:04:31.760 --> 01:04:38.239
<v Speaker 5>they're feeding. And it was suspected that this allergen what

1127
01:04:37.679 --> 01:04:40.920
<v Speaker 5>they what it's protein, because that's what allergens are, and

1128
01:04:41.079 --> 01:04:46.679
<v Speaker 5>the protein when mites and insects eat solid food like

1129
01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:49.719
<v Speaker 5>these mites are doing, and the food is going in

1130
01:04:49.800 --> 01:04:53.679
<v Speaker 5>their gut. The first part of their gut is lined

1131
01:04:53.719 --> 01:04:56.480
<v Speaker 5>with cuticles, so it's not you know, it's not damage

1132
01:04:56.480 --> 01:04:58.719
<v Speaker 5>and the food goes through it, but when it gets

1133
01:04:58.760 --> 01:05:00.840
<v Speaker 5>into the part where it's going to be digested, it

1134
01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:04.559
<v Speaker 5>can do damage to the lining of the of the gut, right,

1135
01:05:04.760 --> 01:05:10.599
<v Speaker 5>and so the might secretes what's called a paratrophic memorane,

1136
01:05:11.199 --> 01:05:15.000
<v Speaker 5>which is a little soft protein coat that goes over

1137
01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:19.760
<v Speaker 5>the food as it passes into the mid gut where

1138
01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:23.559
<v Speaker 5>where digestion will occur, and then it's taken into the

1139
01:05:23.559 --> 01:05:27.440
<v Speaker 5>gut cells for actual digestion. So people thought, oh, that's

1140
01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:30.280
<v Speaker 5>the obvious thing. Okay, it's it's it's going to be

1141
01:05:30.320 --> 01:05:33.320
<v Speaker 5>a you know, the ellergen will be this memorane that's

1142
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:35.599
<v Speaker 5>going to be left over again, it's going to stay

1143
01:05:35.639 --> 01:05:37.760
<v Speaker 5>with the food as it goes through the gut and

1144
01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:40.639
<v Speaker 5>any waste material it isn't digested, will you know, we

1145
01:05:40.880 --> 01:05:44.119
<v Speaker 5>will pass out as fecal material and it will be

1146
01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:46.880
<v Speaker 5>surrounded by this stuff. Well, when they actually looked at

1147
01:05:46.880 --> 01:05:51.320
<v Speaker 5>the structure of you know that people have actually determined

1148
01:05:51.320 --> 01:05:54.800
<v Speaker 5>what the structure of the antigen is. And it isn't

1149
01:05:54.800 --> 01:06:00.400
<v Speaker 5>a paratrophic memorane protein. It's the enzyme that digests keratin. Yeah,

1150
01:06:00.639 --> 01:06:03.480
<v Speaker 5>so we have we have gone full circle here. Okay,

1151
01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:06.119
<v Speaker 5>so we have. We've gone back to the ancestors who

1152
01:06:06.199 --> 01:06:08.960
<v Speaker 5>lived on birds that evolved the ability to eat keratin

1153
01:06:09.639 --> 01:06:13.920
<v Speaker 5>all the way through the the shift from a parasitic

1154
01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:18.719
<v Speaker 5>to a non parasitic lifestyle, uh to causing problems again,

1155
01:06:19.039 --> 01:06:22.800
<v Speaker 5>you know, to to the humans at least because of

1156
01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:27.119
<v Speaker 5>the very enzyme that allowed them to make this transition

1157
01:06:27.199 --> 01:06:27.880
<v Speaker 5>in the first place.

1158
01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:29.320
<v Speaker 3>That's it. That's really interesting.

1159
01:06:29.440 --> 01:06:32.400
<v Speaker 2>So so the enzyme that less than digest the keratin

1160
01:06:32.639 --> 01:06:35.480
<v Speaker 2>ends up being a problem for the people who cohabitate

1161
01:06:35.559 --> 01:06:38.840
<v Speaker 2>with their environment, right, okay, exactly, That's that's really amazing.

1162
01:06:38.920 --> 01:06:43.239
<v Speaker 2>So now we just need to evolve not having those reactions.

1163
01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:46.800
<v Speaker 5>Right, you know, and in the in the meantime, we

1164
01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:49.280
<v Speaker 5>we just wrap our mattresses up with you know, with

1165
01:06:49.280 --> 01:06:52.920
<v Speaker 5>with plastic and my my son had a bad dust

1166
01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:55.079
<v Speaker 5>mite allergy, so we had to do that when he

1167
01:06:55.199 --> 01:06:56.000
<v Speaker 5>was growing up.

1168
01:06:56.840 --> 01:06:59.559
<v Speaker 2>Is there is there a distinction between people who study

1169
01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:02.639
<v Speaker 2>parasite in those who study how to destroy them.

1170
01:07:02.800 --> 01:07:05.760
<v Speaker 5>I mean, it's all it's it's all part of of

1171
01:07:05.960 --> 01:07:09.239
<v Speaker 5>you know, the big field of parasitology. You know, we

1172
01:07:09.400 --> 01:07:12.760
<v Speaker 5>there there are certainly many different emphathies. You know, there

1173
01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:16.679
<v Speaker 5>are people like me who who really get excited about

1174
01:07:16.880 --> 01:07:22.159
<v Speaker 5>working out the evolutionary histories of parasites and and their hosts. Uh.

1175
01:07:22.239 --> 01:07:25.360
<v Speaker 5>There are people who are more ecologically oriented that that

1176
01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:29.280
<v Speaker 5>get excited about. You know, what is it that the

1177
01:07:29.320 --> 01:07:32.239
<v Speaker 5>parasite is doing when it is living on or in

1178
01:07:32.280 --> 01:07:34.320
<v Speaker 5>the body of of this host. I mean, what is

1179
01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:37.000
<v Speaker 5>the the essence of the interaction? I mean there are

1180
01:07:37.280 --> 01:07:40.800
<v Speaker 5>folks who look at this at at the molecular level.

1181
01:07:40.840 --> 01:07:43.960
<v Speaker 5>You know, what what kinds of chemicals are being produced

1182
01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:48.800
<v Speaker 5>that that cause reactions or or don't cause reactions in

1183
01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:52.840
<v Speaker 5>in or prevent the reaction in uh in the host.

1184
01:07:52.960 --> 01:07:55.639
<v Speaker 5>And you know that that's all really basic science there

1185
01:07:55.679 --> 01:07:58.599
<v Speaker 5>and and when you get into the in the more

1186
01:07:58.639 --> 01:08:02.360
<v Speaker 5>applied ends of things, you know, the the medical side

1187
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:07.880
<v Speaker 5>of things, where where the focus is on uh, you know,

1188
01:08:07.960 --> 01:08:11.880
<v Speaker 5>treatment and prevention, so you still need to know some

1189
01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:13.599
<v Speaker 5>of these other things. You know, if you if you

1190
01:08:13.639 --> 01:08:17.159
<v Speaker 5>want to know how to not get a particular parasite,

1191
01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:20.119
<v Speaker 5>you need to know something about its life cycle, where

1192
01:08:20.119 --> 01:08:22.920
<v Speaker 5>it lives, you know, how it moves, you know through

1193
01:08:23.880 --> 01:08:29.119
<v Speaker 5>or potentially moved through different hosts. So you know, and

1194
01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:31.600
<v Speaker 5>and then you know, then I suppose there are folks

1195
01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:33.840
<v Speaker 5>who's you know, who get paid to go on come mosquitos,

1196
01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:36.680
<v Speaker 5>you know, and and that's a good thing too.

1197
01:08:37.880 --> 01:08:40.399
<v Speaker 1>Well, just a final question. We like to ask our guests,

1198
01:08:40.560 --> 01:08:41.720
<v Speaker 1>what's your favorite monster?

1199
01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:45.840
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, my favorite monster? Oh my? Uh well, let me

1200
01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:47.439
<v Speaker 5>let me tell you about a movie I saw a

1201
01:08:47.600 --> 01:08:51.720
<v Speaker 5>very very long time ago. It was a wonderful old

1202
01:08:51.960 --> 01:08:55.640
<v Speaker 5>Mexican horror movie made back in the in the fifties

1203
01:08:55.720 --> 01:08:59.439
<v Speaker 5>or sixties called The Black Scorpion. And you know, it

1204
01:08:59.560 --> 01:09:03.920
<v Speaker 5>actually featured some some rather gigantic arachnids. You know, the

1205
01:09:04.239 --> 01:09:08.840
<v Speaker 5>title character was was this train sized scorpion. And and

1206
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:12.560
<v Speaker 5>you know, the the folks who made the movie did

1207
01:09:12.600 --> 01:09:14.520
<v Speaker 5>a pretty good job with it. I mean it really

1208
01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:17.199
<v Speaker 5>did look kind of like a scorpion, you know, had

1209
01:09:17.199 --> 01:09:19.239
<v Speaker 5>its tail this thing and on big pintures and all

1210
01:09:19.279 --> 01:09:21.800
<v Speaker 5>of that. And you know it didn't have the right

1211
01:09:21.880 --> 01:09:24.199
<v Speaker 5>mouth parts for a scorpion. You know, it more had

1212
01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:26.279
<v Speaker 5>beetle mouth parts. But you know, I'll give him that.

1213
01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:29.079
<v Speaker 5>But my favorite part of the entire movie is when

1214
01:09:29.720 --> 01:09:31.720
<v Speaker 5>this this young boy who is one of the heroes

1215
01:09:31.760 --> 01:09:36.000
<v Speaker 5>of the story actually falls down this hole. Okay, he's

1216
01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:38.159
<v Speaker 5>trying to escape something and he falls into this hole

1217
01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:42.560
<v Speaker 5>and he's menaced by this giant mite. Okay, and the

1218
01:09:42.680 --> 01:09:45.039
<v Speaker 5>mite is actually pretty well done. I mean I can

1219
01:09:45.159 --> 01:09:48.560
<v Speaker 5>even identify what family it belongs to. It's a group

1220
01:09:48.600 --> 01:09:53.560
<v Speaker 5>of predatory mites that has very large what we call

1221
01:09:53.680 --> 01:09:58.800
<v Speaker 5>raptorial appendages around its mouthparts that they used to grab

1222
01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:03.399
<v Speaker 5>prey with. And you know, he's having to dodge the

1223
01:10:03.920 --> 01:10:07.520
<v Speaker 5>attacks of this might, And I thought, you know, that

1224
01:10:07.680 --> 01:10:10.600
<v Speaker 5>was pretty cool to actually bring a giant might into

1225
01:10:10.920 --> 01:10:11.680
<v Speaker 5>a monster movie.

1226
01:10:12.760 --> 01:10:15.199
<v Speaker 3>Actually, I was watching that with my daughter about a month.

1227
01:10:15.920 --> 01:10:19.359
<v Speaker 3>She's only four. She was she said it was too

1228
01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:20.159
<v Speaker 3>slow for her.

1229
01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:24.319
<v Speaker 2>She wanted to any But yeah, yeah, that was had

1230
01:10:24.319 --> 01:10:24.920
<v Speaker 2>special effect.

1231
01:10:24.920 --> 01:10:26.680
<v Speaker 6>I was king of joke that you'd seen it, blake.

1232
01:10:26.560 --> 01:10:30.279
<v Speaker 3>Yoh absolutely, I've got it. Yeah, yeah, it's got special effects.

1233
01:10:30.279 --> 01:10:33.439
<v Speaker 3>By Willis O'Brien. Absolutely, yeah, so there you go.

1234
01:10:33.920 --> 01:10:37.279
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

1235
01:10:37.640 --> 01:10:41.720
<v Speaker 2>More thanks for listening to monster Talk today. We've been

1236
01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:44.680
<v Speaker 2>learning about mites and lice and the role they play

1237
01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:46.840
<v Speaker 2>in monster folklore, as well as the.

1238
01:10:46.800 --> 01:10:48.159
<v Speaker 3>Science behind their life cycle.

1239
01:10:48.960 --> 01:10:53.560
<v Speaker 2>We interviewed doctor Barry O'Connor, an acharologist and evolutionary parasitologist.

1240
01:10:53.720 --> 01:10:58.560
<v Speaker 2>Your hosts for Blake Smith, Doctor Karen Stolesnow, and Benjamin Radford.

1241
01:10:58.920 --> 01:11:00.800
<v Speaker 2>If you'd like to come in on the show, please

1242
01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:04.960
<v Speaker 2>come visit the Skeptic Forum at skepticforum dot com. If

1243
01:11:04.960 --> 01:11:07.439
<v Speaker 2>you'd like to help out Monster Talk, please give us

1244
01:11:07.479 --> 01:11:10.840
<v Speaker 2>a review on iTunes. It's fast, free and helps us

1245
01:11:10.880 --> 01:11:14.159
<v Speaker 2>get the show out to more listeners. Monster Talk is

1246
01:11:14.159 --> 01:11:17.560
<v Speaker 2>produced with the support of Skeptic Magazine. Visit them at

1247
01:11:17.560 --> 01:11:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Skeptic dot com. Music from the intro was from composer

1248
01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:26.079
<v Speaker 2>David Beard. The Monster Talk theme is by Peach Stealing Monkeys.

1249
01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:29.560
<v Speaker 2>All music is used with permission. The views expressed on

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<v Speaker 2>Munster Talk do not necessarily reflect those of Skeptic Magazine

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<v Speaker 2>or the Skeptic Society.

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<v Speaker 4>Hungary more skepticism, want to learn the truth about the

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<v Speaker 4>scientific controversies of our time. Then subscribe to Skeptic, the

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<v Speaker 4>the field. To subscribe, visit skeptic dot com today.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you hear about the geneticist parasitologist with Tourette syndrome

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<v Speaker 2>He developed a tick