Speaker 1: JP When we come to the AWA on the Complete
Speaker 1: Hulk Hogan, it's a whole new kettle of fish, a
Speaker 1: whole new territory, so many characters, so much background to
Speaker 1: learn about and understand. We know Hulk took off as
Speaker 1: a baby face star, but still so we're so thirsty
Speaker 1: for color about what it was like in the AWA,
Speaker 1: aren't we.
Speaker 2: Yes, Oh, listen. Out of all the territories, this is
Speaker 2: one that fascinates me the most.
Speaker 1: And so we're really excited to welcome the great jumpin
Speaker 1: Jim Brunzel, who is a Minnesota boy in the first place,
Speaker 1: lifelong AWA guy until he went, of course to the
Speaker 1: WWE as the Killer Bees with Brian Blair, and we're
Speaker 1: really really fortunate to have him. Deem us worthy of
Speaker 1: some time here to talk about Hulk, the AWA and
Speaker 1: that whole rather magical time period. Jim, it's really good
Speaker 1: to have you on the show. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for having me. You know, I do
Speaker 3: a few of these and it's always good to you know,
Speaker 3: reminisce and that was a great time here. You know,
Speaker 3: when Hulk first came to the AWA, it was just incredible.
Speaker 3: I mean, he took the territory by storm. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'd never seen such huge houses. And you know, they
Speaker 3: sort of brought him in as a yell and he
Speaker 3: wound up being a baby phase, a huge baby phase,
Speaker 3: and the people loved him.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I can't wait to get into all of that.
Speaker 1: And I guess we should start with when you first
Speaker 1: met Hulk. I know there was an interaction at a
Speaker 1: gym when he first came in with you and him,
Speaker 1: I believe, But did you ever meet him before then?
Speaker 1: Or when did you first meet Hulk?
Speaker 3: I first met Hulk when he came here to do TV.
Speaker 3: And then I had just opened up a gym in
Speaker 3: white per Lake. And in the next oh, probably the
Speaker 3: next couple of weeks to a month when I opened
Speaker 3: the gym, he came and made an appearance and crime,
Speaker 3: there was like two thousand people there and I had
Speaker 3: just spent thirteen thousand dollars on mirrors. Wow, and there
Speaker 3: were so many people in the gym and they were
Speaker 3: leaning on the mirrors. I simply, God, I haven't paid
Speaker 3: for those yet. But he just, you know, he was
Speaker 3: he was a dear friend, and you know it just
Speaker 3: you know, things happened, and you know, and I might
Speaker 3: be jumping a head forward, but you know, without Hulk Hogan,
Speaker 3: they wouldn't have been WrestleMania's and there wouldn't have been
Speaker 3: al Comediet and it wouldn't have given Vince the control
Speaker 3: over he did over the twenty you know, twenty five,
Speaker 3: twenty six territories when you know, he took over because
Speaker 3: Hulk was he was a golden goose man. He just yeah,
Speaker 3: he was it.
Speaker 1: What was his demeanor? Like Hulk was he because he'd
Speaker 1: come off New York and he was kind of boisterous
Speaker 1: on that TV. He kind of found a heel persona
Speaker 1: and a swagger out there. What was he like to
Speaker 1: deal with personally when you first met him?
Speaker 3: He's real quiet, right, real quiet, and you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: it was so it was a difference between night and day,
Speaker 3: you know, when he'd get on that mike, but otherwise
Speaker 3: he was very quiet. He was you know, he was
Speaker 3: a guitar player, a bass player, and I had some
Speaker 3: friends of mine that played in the band and he
Speaker 3: got up and jammed with him a couple of times
Speaker 3: and the people went crazy and it was just fun.
Speaker 3: And he you know, he loved Minneapolis. He really liked
Speaker 3: it because he only had to work three four times
Speaker 3: a week.
Speaker 1: You know, did you ever hear anything Jim about him
Speaker 1: before leaving Vince Senior having to go to or schedule
Speaker 1: to go to work for Jim Crockett and Charlotte? Nope,
Speaker 1: never heard about that, Okay.
Speaker 3: Never, matter of fact, I was in Charlotte, and I'm
Speaker 3: trying to think I was in Charlotte. I left Awa
Speaker 3: in seventy nine, I think, and went down No. Seventy eight,
Speaker 3: went down to Charlotte for a year and a half
Speaker 3: and then came back, and then in eighty five I
Speaker 3: went to New York. So you know, I didn't know,
Speaker 3: if you know, there might have been word, but you know,
Speaker 3: North Carolina, Jimmy Crockett's promotion was on fire down there too.
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean they really drew, you know, with
Speaker 3: Flair and Ricky Steamboat and it was you know it
Speaker 3: probably he would have done well any place he went.
Speaker 1: Sure, what was your understanding as to how he came
Speaker 1: to a WA Who reached out to who first? How
Speaker 1: did he get on their radar?
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know anything about that.
Speaker 1: That's fair.
Speaker 3: I don't know. You know, I hear things, but I
Speaker 3: don't know that if they're true or not. I knew
Speaker 3: that there was a they were they wanted him to
Speaker 3: come to New York, but there was a lull in
Speaker 3: what they wanted to do and the timing wasn't right.
Speaker 3: So somehow or other, he wound up in you know,
Speaker 3: the Awa And I don't know if that was through
Speaker 3: Japan or whatever, but you know, he came here and
Speaker 3: he was just you know, it was it was hell
Speaker 3: on fire. I mean, he just lit this place up
Speaker 3: and it was just incredible. Yeah, it's great, biggest houses
Speaker 3: every place, you know, I mean the houses sold out everywhere.
Speaker 1: Do you remember buzz about his arrival before you met
Speaker 1: him in the gym and White bear Lake, was there
Speaker 1: buzz that this guy's like coming in or did you
Speaker 1: just encounter him one day and learn that day he
Speaker 1: was he was here?
Speaker 3: Now that's exactly what happened. All of a sudden, boom
Speaker 3: he appeared and they had Johnny Valiant doing it warm
Speaker 3: up interview, you know, and Johnny Vunny was a heel
Speaker 3: and he and you know, he brought Hulk in and
Speaker 3: his you know, h it's his you know, big star,
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, you know, Holks started talking
Speaker 3: and then the next thing, you know, you know, the
Speaker 3: people were applauding him in the ring, you know, and
Speaker 3: he was wrestling two guys, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: you know, they said, wow, oh Covi, and you know
Speaker 3: he's he's the real thing. And then they just sort
Speaker 3: of dropped Janny Valliant and uh, you know how just
Speaker 3: you know, went on his Mary Way. I mean, if
Speaker 3: if you were on you know, we only we only
Speaker 3: ran like one town a night, you know, in the AWA,
Speaker 3: and you know it wasn't nearly as big.
Speaker 4: As as the WWE or WWF, and and every town
Speaker 4: we went to was just incredibly you know, it sold
Speaker 4: out all the time.
Speaker 3: And he was just he was you know, like I said,
Speaker 3: the Golden.
Speaker 1: Ghosts interesting on Johnny Valiant because of course everyone's kind
Speaker 1: of heard that story of how they gave him a
Speaker 1: heel mouthpiece. But as we're watching the matches Jim through
Speaker 1: through eighty one, Johnny turns face with halt. Johnny has
Speaker 1: the mic in a screaming hal Caulkulk at the same
Speaker 1: Paul Civic and other places. Do you yeah, what was
Speaker 1: that about? I thought I thought they.
Speaker 3: Well, I think they they it's they sort of waded
Speaker 3: out and then they realized that how could do you know,
Speaker 3: a pretty damn good interview, you know, either way. And
Speaker 3: I think they just sort of let Johnny go on
Speaker 3: by the wayside because Hulk didn't really need him, you know,
Speaker 3: as as far as a mouthpiece, because he just, you know, boom,
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, he just caught it.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, it's just it's it's interesting
Speaker 2: too about the promos, because we saw him in New York.
Speaker 2: We saw videos of him New York, and it's very
Speaker 2: very it's very kind of low key, almost like surfer dudish,
Speaker 2: but arrogant and heelish. But then all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: you know, there's like a switch that happens, and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden he's this animated, over the top like
Speaker 2: he's doing interviews with with gene Oakerland that are more
Speaker 2: like Hulk Hogan. And you know what do you you know,
Speaker 2: what do you what do you make of that change?
Speaker 1: Do you know anything? What kind of happened in between?
Speaker 3: I just think you know, they you know, he was well,
Speaker 3: he was certain nurse so long, but I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: they had Bobby Heaton here, who was a great interviewer,
Speaker 3: and Gene Oakland gets the best. You know, you got
Speaker 3: the best out of everybody when you interview. So they
Speaker 3: just let I'll go. You know, they just said, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, do what you want to do, and you know,
Speaker 3: you know do this. You're the you know, you're the
Speaker 3: six foot seven, inchestree hundred and twenty pounds, you know,
Speaker 3: new Hollywood star in wrestling, So go get it, you know.
Speaker 3: So he did.
Speaker 1: When Johnny Valiant was at ringside kind of trying to
Speaker 1: be a babyface cheerleader, we noticed it was doing a
Speaker 1: lot of six man's you, Hulk and Greg against whatever
Speaker 1: the other heel team would be. Was it kind of
Speaker 1: Was it kind of annoying? You guys are in there
Speaker 1: trying to work and Johnny Valiants on the house Mike
Speaker 1: scream and haul haulk.
Speaker 3: You know, it didn't bother me a bit because I
Speaker 3: figured that we were in the mean event and it
Speaker 3: was always good to hit Hulk as your partner rather
Speaker 3: you're in.
Speaker 1: To be absolutely man. Great answer. So you and Greg
Speaker 1: and Hulk have talked about the moment that everyone believes
Speaker 1: he first tore his shirt off. It was in the AWA,
Speaker 1: It was before a six man tag. Anything you can
Speaker 1: remember about that particular thing. Whose idea was it to
Speaker 1: rip his shirt off? How did that happen?
Speaker 3: I have no idea. I think it was something that
Speaker 3: I think it was something that had sort of manifested
Speaker 3: itself inside of him, because you know, he's such a
Speaker 3: muscular guy and he had that and it just you know,
Speaker 3: I mean that the the tank top was more or
Speaker 3: less a tank top, and it was you know, cut
Speaker 3: open on the sleeves, so you know, it wasn't like
Speaker 3: a real t shirt. But it got over. You know,
Speaker 3: he tore that damn thing off, and you know, people says, oh,
Speaker 3: the oak means business, so you know, I mean that
Speaker 3: just became part of his at tire and part of
Speaker 3: his gimmick that when you know, he'd come in and
Speaker 3: they just tear that shirt and yeah, so I just
Speaker 3: thought it was part of the package and it.
Speaker 1: Worked well initially. Was it a deal where you and
Speaker 1: Gregg would help rip the shirt? Do you remember that
Speaker 1: at all? Or was it always Hulk doing it himself?
Speaker 3: Always Hulk got it. He didn't need that for anything.
Speaker 1: It's so funny because Hulk, you know, I thought the
Speaker 1: same thing when I heard Greg say that in some interviews,
Speaker 1: but Hulk, I think in Jericho's podcast, said that that
Speaker 1: that that was what happened, is the first night the
Speaker 1: shirt ripped. You grabbed a side, Greg grabbed a side
Speaker 1: and just ripped it off while he was being introduced
Speaker 1: to the people.
Speaker 3: But oh, well, well, you know something, my memory is
Speaker 3: that's one of the consequences. Of course you can't remember Diddle.
Speaker 1: That's a beautiful uh, it's a beautiful thing to think about,
Speaker 1: you know, him kind of coming into his own he
Speaker 1: he he bumped up against Jesse almost immediately. Jesse was
Speaker 1: very well established in the territory muscle man, great contrast
Speaker 1: to Hulk, but they ended up working together and then
Speaker 1: ended up kind of you know, I don't say mortal enemies,
Speaker 1: but definitely not buddies. What do you make of the
Speaker 1: whole arc of Hogan running into Jesse and working with
Speaker 1: him in a w A and and how it ended
Speaker 1: up between.
Speaker 3: Them, Well, let me just see this about Jesse. Jesse
Speaker 3: had a way about him that got himself over as
Speaker 3: a heel. And you know, he was a very good talker, interviewer.
Speaker 3: You know, he was in like the top five, but
Speaker 3: in the ring. He was limited. He wasn't he wasn't
Speaker 3: you know, and I don't mean this derogatory, but he
Speaker 3: wasn't that much of an athlete in terms of you know,
Speaker 3: taking bumps and popping up and you know, you know,
Speaker 3: doom doom doom, you know, and having the crowd react.
Speaker 3: And you know, as matter of fact, next week, I
Speaker 3: think it's next week or the week after that, for SummerSlam,
Speaker 3: they are going to interview me about Jesse and and
Speaker 3: ww Is just mentioned, you know that he had more
Speaker 3: or less you know, led the way, you know, suggesting that,
Speaker 3: you know, pro wrestling needs the union, and I think
Speaker 3: they want to talk about that a little bit interest
Speaker 3: And of course it never happened, but uh, you know,
Speaker 3: I always thought it should. And as a matter of fact,
Speaker 3: I in turn called Gene Upshaw, who was the head
Speaker 3: of the NFL Union, and I talked to him on
Speaker 3: several occasions, and he had told me, you know, I
Speaker 3: told him what was going on in pro wrestling, and
Speaker 3: the money was being you know, as unbelievable amount of money,
Speaker 3: and you know, we just you know, the wrestlers never
Speaker 3: knew how many how much of the money was you know,
Speaker 3: they just knew that the houses were sold out, and
Speaker 3: then there was no pay scale and there was no
Speaker 3: contract real you know, other than now, I know the
Speaker 3: guys are you know, some of the guys are having contracts.
Speaker 3: But I have the original contract that was given to us,
Speaker 3: you know, when I first started, and I remember, you know,
Speaker 3: outside a little well, a part of it said, you know,
Speaker 3: for outside revenue, outside of the WWF, the talent was
Speaker 3: going to get twenty five percent of the gross income.
Speaker 3: And you know, and I don't know if you guys
Speaker 3: know this, but Brian and I wound up suing vents
Speaker 3: because not only did we not get the twenty five
Speaker 3: percent of the gross the wwe paid eight percent of
Speaker 3: the net to the talent. So that was quite a
Speaker 3: despair disparagy and pay so you know, and that was
Speaker 3: one of the things, you know, we had no control over.
Speaker 3: And you know, and everybody knew, you know, howk was
Speaker 3: making fifty thousand dollars a week, you know, just on
Speaker 3: his you know, T shirts and whatever else his dollars
Speaker 3: and everything else, you know, and plus he was getting
Speaker 3: ten to twelve percent of the house because he was
Speaker 3: the main event. So you know, I can't remember, but
Speaker 3: I have the Sports illustrated somewhere. I think it was
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty five, yes, eighty four eighty five, and I
Speaker 3: had a picture of him on the front and it
Speaker 3: said America's top Dog and it explained that Hulk was
Speaker 3: the highest paid athlete in the United States at ten
Speaker 3: million a year.
Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing. So yeah, I can see why the mind
Speaker 1: went there when we asked about Jesse. With with Jesse
Speaker 1: and Hogan and Awa, what was their chemistry like and
Speaker 1: did they get along or did you could you tell
Speaker 1: really soon that they were going to kind of butt heads.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, they both have you know, pretty good egos,
Speaker 3: and I think I think that, you know, because Hulk
Speaker 3: was to me a lot more athletic, and you know,
Speaker 3: he just fit the part a lot better. And then
Speaker 3: you know, Jesse had some problems with his lungs, you know, flying,
Speaker 3: you know, because he something was happy and they told
Speaker 3: him not to fly anymore. So that then pretty soon
Speaker 3: he you know, and I don't I think this was
Speaker 3: in the WWF. Yes, they sort of took him off
Speaker 3: the you know, the bill, you know, took him off
Speaker 3: the roster and he just did the TV so and
Speaker 3: you know, Holk was you know, I mean, I remember
Speaker 3: this is something that happened when we were with the WWF.
Speaker 3: We wrestled in Puerto Rico and they had a Leer
Speaker 3: Jet there. And after we wrestled in Puerto Rico, Hulk,
Speaker 3: Brian and I flew from Puerto Rico to New York.
Speaker 3: They picked us up in a limousine, dropped us off
Speaker 3: at Holk. It was the damnedest thing, you know, because yeah,
Speaker 3: because I you know, I flew in a couple of
Speaker 3: you know, uh, leer jets, but nothing like this, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean Bowman, you know, and too he did travel
Speaker 3: that way a little bit because he was in such demand,
Speaker 3: and I mean they worked the ship out of him.
Speaker 3: And you know, thank god he didn't drink because he
Speaker 3: never he never would have made it because the guys
Speaker 3: who drank, you know, they were half punchy, you know
Speaker 3: at the time the bell ring. But he was, you know,
Speaker 3: he just took it, you know, and he just gobbled
Speaker 3: it up. And you know, he was he was one
Speaker 3: in a million, one.
Speaker 1: In a million. So there was the clash with Jesse.
Speaker 1: One of the things we were looking back at the
Speaker 1: old newspaper clippings was in the Minneapolis Star. I think
Speaker 1: it was. They used to have a wrestling column and
Speaker 1: it was the Secret Scribe. It was like a massive yes,
Speaker 1: who is who is the secret Scribe? You gotta know.
Speaker 1: I still don't know, Fabous Jim, you know who the
Speaker 1: secret Scribe is.
Speaker 3: I don't know because wrestling per se was not taken
Speaker 3: as a major sport in In matter of fact, when
Speaker 3: Brian and I wore those crazy Nike Dunk black and
Speaker 3: you know, yellow tennis shoes basketball shoes, I wrote a
Speaker 3: letter to Nike saying, hey, yeah, you know where the
Speaker 3: Killer bees and we're wearing these shoes, and you know,
Speaker 3: would you like to, you know, look at us and
Speaker 3: see if there's any promotion? And I have the letter someplace,
Speaker 3: gentlemen that had said, mister Brunzil, pro wrestling is way
Speaker 3: below the standards.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: And I was just I thought, you know, I thought, jeez,
Speaker 3: if they would have done something, you know, Brian and
Speaker 3: I would have made you know, a ton of a
Speaker 3: lot more money than we did, you know, And that
Speaker 3: you know, that's the way it was, you know, and
Speaker 3: a lot of you know, and especially in Minneapolis, because
Speaker 3: you know, Verne ran a really different program in terms
Speaker 3: of he more or less concentrated on the athleticism of wrestling,
Speaker 3: you know, and the showmanship came in, you know, like
Speaker 3: with Dusty Rhodes and Bobby Heenan and you know, Nick
Speaker 3: Bockwinkle was a great champion for years and then you
Speaker 3: know when how came you know, I think, and this
Speaker 3: is what this is my idea why Hulk never got
Speaker 3: the WW or the AWA belt is because he was
Speaker 3: such a drastic change in personalities and champion than Vern Ganya.
Speaker 3: Vern Ghanya was a collegiate champion, you know, NCAA on
Speaker 3: the Olympic team, world champion, and you know, was the
Speaker 3: wrestler's wrestler, and all of a sudden, you have a
Speaker 3: you know, six foot sixth fnd here guitar player with
Speaker 3: twenty two of jarms, you know, coming out there and
Speaker 3: just killing it, you know, and I think I think
Speaker 3: that ego of Vern sort of held him back. And
Speaker 3: because of that, you know, I think they were you
Speaker 3: know a lot of people had said, you know, they should,
Speaker 3: you know, they really should let Hawk, you know, have
Speaker 3: the championship here in the AWA, and I thought, hell yes,
Speaker 3: But then you know, I heard all sorts of Scuttle,
Speaker 3: and they were worried that if they gave him the belt,
Speaker 3: he'd go to New York and they unify the two
Speaker 3: belts and you know, and that can all be taken
Speaker 3: care of, you know, legally, you know, by having a
Speaker 3: contract saying, you know, if you win the belt, you're
Speaker 3: not going to go to New York and drop it.
Speaker 3: You know. That's all I would have had to done,
Speaker 3: but they didn't. And then consequently Hulk left and the
Speaker 3: AWA just fell. I mean, it just went boom. I remember,
Speaker 3: I remember, and I had a gym at the time,
Speaker 3: like I said, and I remember the houses were so
Speaker 3: bad and I was hardly making any you know, decent money.
Speaker 3: I went to Vern and I said, Vern I says,
Speaker 3: you know, I said, things are getting bad. And I said,
Speaker 3: I realize, you know, but I said, I need, you know,
Speaker 3: a guaranteed contract, you know, for you to sign me
Speaker 3: to keep me, you know, And he says, well, how
Speaker 3: much do you want? I said one hundred and ten
Speaker 3: thousand dollars? And you know what he said, he said,
Speaker 3: you're not worth it going to New York.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's you know. I'm glad we were here
Speaker 1: because I wanted to ask you about this. You know,
Speaker 1: Vern had a negotiating style. I guess you could call
Speaker 1: it that. And we had heard an interview that Brad
Speaker 1: and Ringan's had done about the way Vern would talk
Speaker 1: to Hulk. You know, you would think this golden goose, right,
Speaker 1: he talked to him a little differently than he would
Speaker 1: like an opening match guy. But Brad was saying, you know,
Speaker 1: Vern would call Hulk a dip shit and he'd call
Speaker 1: him a dumb ass. Yeah. I mean, is that Vern
Speaker 1: having a you know, a fit because something didn't go
Speaker 1: right in the ring or on a promo, or was
Speaker 1: he regularly kind of you know, you know, talking down
Speaker 1: to Hulk, do you remember.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I never heard him say any of that,
Speaker 3: and I just think that if he did, it was
Speaker 3: his way of sort of belittling Hulk to the fact
Speaker 3: that you know, he was a national champion. Vern was,
Speaker 3: and you know, Hulk was a magical figure in pro wrestling,
Speaker 3: making a fortune for everybody. And you know, I again
Speaker 3: I think and you know, Greg gets mad at me
Speaker 3: saying this, but it's the truth. I think it was
Speaker 3: purely ego that stopped stopped Vern from giving the belt
Speaker 3: to Hulk, and I would have loved to see it
Speaker 3: because if Hawk loved it here because he didn't have
Speaker 3: to wrestle that much, and plus he still had his
Speaker 3: contract with Japan. You know, he could you know, he
Speaker 3: would have. Vern would have been able to do what
Speaker 3: Vince did, although Verndon had the TV connections that vinced it,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean that was a big deal, you know,
Speaker 3: the TV. But Vern was you know, I mean he
Speaker 3: was he was. He was stubborn and pig headed and
Speaker 3: you know, you know, a very egotistical man and thought, well,
Speaker 3: you know I can do it. I'm very god yea,
Speaker 3: and he couldn't.
Speaker 2: So do you think that if if if Hogan, if
Speaker 2: Vern had given Hogan the belt that the the like,
Speaker 2: do you what do you do you think the wrestling
Speaker 2: boom that that w had would have happened? Do you
Speaker 2: think would have gone to a w A? What do
Speaker 2: you you know? What do you what do you think
Speaker 2: about that?
Speaker 3: Well? It was fifty to fifty The reason why, I
Speaker 3: mean it was a magic. Everything was magic with Hulk
Speaker 3: when he went to New York because Vince had the
Speaker 3: TV connections and all of a sudden boom he was
Speaker 3: you know, he was nationwide, worldwide, you know, halkg and Hukemania,
Speaker 3: and Vern didn't have those connections. I think Vern possibly
Speaker 3: burnt a couple of bridges, you know, with some of
Speaker 3: the major TV you know, networks, and I think that
Speaker 3: probably would have hurt him. But at the same time,
Speaker 3: you know, the opportunity to have Hulk as you're champion,
Speaker 3: you know, Vern could have made a fortune, and you
Speaker 3: know they could have worked something outward. You know, Hulk
Speaker 3: left after so many you know, so long or something,
Speaker 3: and I got suspended, and you know, there's always a way,
Speaker 3: but it's just that that initial deal where I go,
Speaker 3: you know, go to New York, you know, got out
Speaker 3: of you know, boom in the next thing. You know,
Speaker 3: a w A can't traw Diddley squat, you know, I
Speaker 3: mean the houses were horrible on.
Speaker 1: The friction with Vern. Did you see the incident where
Speaker 1: Vern shot with Hulk in one front double? Now you
Speaker 1: heard about that?
Speaker 3: Ever I never I never heard of it. Never. You know,
Speaker 3: I heard of it, but I never saw it. And
Speaker 3: you know, you know, Vernon was a great wrestler, but
Speaker 3: he's you know, he's fifty years older than Hulk, and
Speaker 3: and you know, hal Cogan was in great shape, and
Speaker 3: I watched some of those new Japan wrestling tapes of
Speaker 3: him wrestling in Nooki and Hulk could get on the
Speaker 3: mat and work. I mean he could wrestle. For a
Speaker 3: big guy, he was very talented. So you know, I
Speaker 3: you know, and you know, Greg, yeah, my dad did
Speaker 3: this and that. I just let it roll by me
Speaker 3: because I thought, there's you know, it's it's just it's
Speaker 3: just a shame that it happened the way it did.
Speaker 3: But you know, everything happens for a purpose, and that
Speaker 3: purpose was for Whoe Cogan because he became the biggest
Speaker 3: star worldwide star in wrestling there.
Speaker 1: Was did did you uh?
Speaker 2: Did you ever frequent the Begania House at on Lake Minnetaka?
Speaker 3: Oh? Yes, see Greg and I played football together when
Speaker 3: we were a freshman and he was a quarterback and
Speaker 3: I was a wide receiver and he was a good quarterback.
Speaker 3: And you know he was you know, he was six
Speaker 3: feet and one hundred and seventy pounds, but he could throw
Speaker 3: the ball decent. But he wasn't the type of big
Speaker 3: ten football player that Murray Warmath, who our coach was
Speaker 3: at that time. You know, he wanted a quarterback that
Speaker 3: was six two two twenty that could run the ball
Speaker 3: on an option. You know, I forget about passing the ball.
Speaker 3: The only passes, you know. So, you know, Greg and
Speaker 3: I did well together, and then he says, I'm going
Speaker 3: to I'm going to transfer. So he went to Wyoming
Speaker 3: and he wound up playing a little bit in Wyoming.
Speaker 3: And then then I was, you know, I tried, I
Speaker 3: had a try out. I played one year a semi
Speaker 3: pro in Wisconsin, had a try out with the Washington Redskins,
Speaker 3: didn't make it, came back and I thought, I'm going
Speaker 3: to go get my degree. So I had like thirty
Speaker 3: credits left to get my degree. And Greg called me
Speaker 3: and he said, hey. He says, my you know, Cam
Speaker 3: Petera just came back from the Olympics, and my dad's
Speaker 3: going to train him. And then there's an Iranian, you know,
Speaker 3: amateur wrestler, Kasro Viziri is going to train him. And
Speaker 3: Bob Bruggers, who was a former Gofer football player and
Speaker 3: played in the NFL for about four or five years,
Speaker 3: is going to train him. And then he said, we
Speaker 3: got a schoolboy champ from Wisconsin who was in the
Speaker 3: private school. His name is Richard Fleer. He's going to
Speaker 3: train him. And he said would you would you consider it?
Speaker 3: And I thought, well, you know, and I said, Greg,
Speaker 3: I said, the only wrestling I did was in our mirrors,
Speaker 3: you know, And he says not, don't worry about it.
Speaker 3: He says, we're going to have Billy Robinson then, and
Speaker 3: I thought, well, I says, you know, I might as
Speaker 3: well do it. So and then at that time, when
Speaker 3: all of us were there, we had we had Oh
Speaker 3: it was it was miserable, but that's that's to be expected.
Speaker 3: And that's why all these camps were. When you wanted
Speaker 3: to be a pro wrestler, they made it real hard
Speaker 3: on you. So you know, they just wanted to test
Speaker 3: you and see if you could make it, you know.
Speaker 3: But you know Verne, you know, he had Billy Robinson
Speaker 3: beat the shit out of us for a couple hours
Speaker 3: and then and then he'd come in twenty minutes and
Speaker 3: then you know, hog tie you and cross face and
Speaker 3: everything else. But it was, you know, and I remember
Speaker 3: when he first sent me, he says, Jim, we're going
Speaker 3: to send you down to Kansas City to get it,
Speaker 3: get a little more experience. Well, I went down to
Speaker 3: Kansas City and I wrestled every single night, twice a night,
Speaker 3: and it was Bob Geigel and Pat O'Connor were the
Speaker 3: book is there and we were I wrestled every night
Speaker 3: and it was you know, and I was getting twenty
Speaker 3: five and thirty dollars a match, and I remember getting
Speaker 3: the check and it was one hundred and forty five dollars.
Speaker 3: And I worked ten times.
Speaker 1: There, Jim, I got, I gotta when you're on the subject,
Speaker 1: I got to ask you. You know, there's been interviews
Speaker 1: over the years where people talked about how Vern tried
Speaker 1: to cut in on the earnings of anybody he trained.
Speaker 1: He wanted ten percent. I remember reading one place that
Speaker 1: you or Ken Petera were like the only ones who
Speaker 1: actually gave a percentage of your earnings to Vern. What
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 3: I was the only one, the only person confront And
Speaker 3: the reason why is because I see it around here
Speaker 3: five years and they could just take it out of
Speaker 3: my check. The others Jenny left and everybody, Yeah, everybody left,
Speaker 3: and they never got to dying from Rick.
Speaker 1: So what was that conversation? Like, I'm sure at a
Speaker 1: certain point you're like Verne, do I really have to
Speaker 1: keep paying you. I mean, I'm just one of the boys.
Speaker 3: Well he said, he said, Now, you know, he never
Speaker 3: told us the deal on the contract. Never, he says,
Speaker 3: you know, he says, as time goes by, he is,
Speaker 3: let you know what we're going to do. So nobody knew,
Speaker 3: you know, and then everybody thought, well, he's going to
Speaker 3: let us go and you know, and or whatever. And
Speaker 3: then then when he said, okay, here's the deal. You know,
Speaker 3: you're gonna give me ten percent of the gross for
Speaker 3: five years, and I thought so. Then I found found
Speaker 3: out I was the only one that stayed in Minneapolis,
Speaker 3: and I thought, shit, I'm the only one who's paying him.
Speaker 3: So I can't remember it was fifty or sixty thousand
Speaker 3: dollars that I gave him, but you know, I could
Speaker 3: use the money he could have. So, you know, it
Speaker 3: was just and you know, see that's the way wrestling is,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, it's just you very seldom to
Speaker 3: the guys. You know, the workers themselves have an opportunity
Speaker 3: to you know, be the head guy or you know,
Speaker 3: have be on top when it comes this or that.
Speaker 3: You know, so you're at the discretion of the promoter.
Speaker 1: And so you never had a conversation with Verne about
Speaker 1: not taking that percentage.
Speaker 3: Oh god, you know Greg said to me was just
Speaker 3: don't worry. Jimmy says he's going to give it back
Speaker 3: to when you're done with the five years. And he
Speaker 3: never did.
Speaker 1: All right, Okay, you were reading Ed Leslie's book Brutus
Speaker 1: beef Cake, and he was there with Hulk at the time.
Speaker 1: You remember Ed Boulder, Yes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was. He was like Hulk Cogan's second shirt.
Speaker 3: He was on his back all the time. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: he and you know this, You know Edie was good,
Speaker 3: you know, and he he but thank god that he
Speaker 3: you know, he knew Hogan because he wouldn't have gotten
Speaker 3: anywhere without Hulk. Holk made made made him a living
Speaker 3: for twenty years. You know.
Speaker 1: In his book he talks about going to the territory
Speaker 1: and in that closeness with Hull, which you know he'd
Speaker 1: be the first to knowledge that. Sure, he kind of
Speaker 1: painted as Greg being a little kind of jealous of
Speaker 1: his friendship with Hulk, and that Greg wanted to be
Speaker 1: closer to Hulk. I don't know how Ed came to
Speaker 1: feel that way. He tells a couple of stories in
Speaker 1: the book, did you observe that dynamic where no, no.
Speaker 3: No, no, I didn't. The only thing I know.
Speaker 5: That that Brutus was right next to Hulk the whole time,
Speaker 5: and you know, benefited from his friendship with Hulk and
Speaker 5: every place he went, you know, you know.
Speaker 3: Look at look at what happened to him, and you
Speaker 3: know on New York. I mean it was just you know,
Speaker 3: and I see dizzy yet you know once in a while,
Speaker 3: and he just you know, he he was very fortunate,
Speaker 3: you know, for his earlier years that that Hulk liked him, because,
Speaker 3: to be honest with it, he was you know, he
Speaker 3: had a good physique, but he couldn't really he didn't
Speaker 3: really have his own style, and you know, he I
Speaker 3: would say he was an average worker.
Speaker 1: And another thing Pulpe says in one of his books
Speaker 1: actually is that he kind of got the feeling that
Speaker 1: Verne was trying to set him up with Donna. Of course,
Speaker 1: Donna went on to marry Larry. Do you remember that
Speaker 1: at all?
Speaker 3: I have no idea, but it wouldn't have surprise me.
Speaker 1: Why not.
Speaker 3: I just just think that, you know, that's the mentality
Speaker 3: of Verne, you know, I mean, he had three daughters,
Speaker 3: and you know, Kathy got married and.
Speaker 1: Then maybe it was Kathy NB it is Kathy. He
Speaker 1: was trying to get set up with whoever.
Speaker 3: Was Yeah, well Kathy wound up being married to Larry's Ebisco.
Speaker 3: And then there was Donna and Beth, and you know,
Speaker 3: I don't know, I have really no idea. I remember
Speaker 3: that I think the girls, you know, it was probably hard.
Speaker 3: It was hard for Greg to be son Vern Guany,
Speaker 3: and I imagine the girls were finding it hard too,
Speaker 3: to be daughters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did Vern ever give Greg a hard time? Like
Speaker 2: you know, be uh you know, you know, like you said,
Speaker 2: kind of being the son of Vern? Like, did did
Speaker 2: you notice Verne ever give Greg a hard time?
Speaker 3: No? But I think that Vern realized that he had
Speaker 3: so many enemies in the wrestling business that he didn't
Speaker 3: want to send Greg out. You know, I mean Greg
Speaker 3: wrestled two weeks in New York and sparingly elsewhere, but
Speaker 3: he never you know, he never went to Kansas City,
Speaker 3: he didn't go to North Carolina, didn't go to Texas,
Speaker 3: didn't go to California or nothing, because you know, Vern
Speaker 3: had had made himself not very well liked, you know,
Speaker 3: for the twenty four other promoters and pro wrestling because
Speaker 3: for one thing, they were jealous of Verne because he
Speaker 3: was a legit champion, and another thing, he was a prick. Know,
Speaker 3: it was a prick to the other promoters. You know,
Speaker 3: he said, well, we're going to do it my way,
Speaker 3: you know, this is this, and that it was always
Speaker 3: his way. So I think that Vern realized that he
Speaker 3: couldn't send Greg out because you know, he had more
Speaker 3: or less set a premise that if you know, Greg
Speaker 3: got out there, that you know, some of these promoters
Speaker 3: that say, okay, well you know, we're just going to
Speaker 3: rough up Greg, you know, because we can't do it
Speaker 3: to his dad. So and and I appreciate that too.
Speaker 3: I thought it was good that he didn't because there
Speaker 3: was a lot of animosity about Vern, you know, in
Speaker 3: the different territories.
Speaker 1: That he had such a wide geographical footprint that he
Speaker 1: felt very confident that he could force his way. Was
Speaker 1: it did he try to like skim people on money?
Speaker 1: Why did he have that reputation with the other promoters.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it was the fact that he you know,
Speaker 3: he was a national champion three times and credentials. Yeah,
Speaker 3: he was. He was and he you know, he he
Speaker 3: sort of you know, had that chip on his shoulder
Speaker 3: and and you know, he was I knew him, and
Speaker 3: I thought, you know what, I'm just going to stay
Speaker 3: away from him. You know, he's my boss. I'm just
Speaker 3: going to you know, tolerate and see what, you know,
Speaker 3: see our best I can do this, and then you know,
Speaker 3: hopefully I'll be able to you know, make a decent living.
Speaker 3: And then finally I just told him, I said, I
Speaker 3: got to leave. So you know, I booked myself down
Speaker 3: in Charlotte and was down there a couple of years,
Speaker 3: and then you know, I came back and then you know,
Speaker 3: to deal with Hulk. And then Hulk went to New
Speaker 3: York and I told him, I told, you know, Verne,
Speaker 3: I said, he, oh, I'm going to go, and he said, okay,
Speaker 3: go ahead, I'll let the door hitch, and.
Speaker 1: I'd say, corrected. It was it was Kathy Gune here
Speaker 1: that Hulk said Vern was trying to set him up
Speaker 1: with not done. Apologies for that, you said, you said, initially, Jim,
Speaker 1: it didn't surprise you, But I didn't quite grasp why
Speaker 1: that didn't surprise you, that Hulk would think he was
Speaker 1: trying to get set up with Kathy.
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know. I think he was trying to
Speaker 3: just set up something that might be benefit to him.
Speaker 3: That's really what I think. You know, Yeah, makes sense,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean he was transactual.
Speaker 1: That's the word.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think you just nailed it right there. Yeah, to
Speaker 1: a degree that that's the money word right there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1: So we're watching these promos from back then, and man,
Speaker 1: what a territory for talkers. Unbelievable stuff. I mean, the
Speaker 1: whole Vince had his whole crew right there just to
Speaker 1: pluck all these great talkers in Minneapolis. Can you take
Speaker 1: us back, Jim, to promo day when you did it,
Speaker 1: where you did it, how it went. Just take us
Speaker 1: through that part of the job.
Speaker 3: Well, we actually we did a couple on sites. We
Speaker 3: did Winnipeg TV after the matches, and then we did
Speaker 3: because that was separate TV for the Canadian you know, companies,
Speaker 3: and then we would do like on a Tuesday or
Speaker 3: Wednesday over the Tcienna eleven and we would you know, shoot,
Speaker 3: you know, like three hours, and then on Saturdays we
Speaker 3: would do a couple hours and then we'd actually make
Speaker 3: a couple tapes and that was basically, you know, they
Speaker 3: had I don't know how many cities they had, but
Speaker 3: you know it was, you know, probably fourteen the twenty
Speaker 3: towns that were running pretty good. And you know, I
Speaker 3: mean they had some big markets. They had Denver, and
Speaker 3: they had in Minneapolis, Saint Paul's, Chicago, and Winnipeg. And
Speaker 3: then Verne got himself into Toronto and then he got
Speaker 3: a partnership down in Saint Louis and you know, I
Speaker 3: mean it worked out good, and you know, there was
Speaker 3: it was a hop and little territory. I remember, you know,
Speaker 3: I think the most I ever made, you know, was
Speaker 3: a little over one hundred grand. And then you know
Speaker 3: when I went to New York, you know, they worked here,
Speaker 3: they worked, you know, twenty seven days a month. Brian
Speaker 3: and I worked twenty seven days and months for three
Speaker 3: and a half years, yeah, straight. And then you know
Speaker 3: people were wondering why guys were having drug problems, alcohol problems,
Speaker 3: sex problems. You know, I mean, it's just it was.
Speaker 3: It was really incredible. You know, the work schedule we had,
Speaker 3: and you know, we flew every single day. I tell
Speaker 3: I told us off to the pilot who was sitting
Speaker 3: next to me. You know. He said, oh, I see
Speaker 3: all the restlus here and he says, yeah, he said,
Speaker 3: where you're going. I said, well, we're going here. And
Speaker 3: he says, what's your schedule? Like I said, we fly
Speaker 3: every day And he says, you know, it's not healthy
Speaker 3: to fly every day. He says, he says that the
Speaker 3: pilots don't even fly every day, and I said, what
Speaker 3: we do?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I never thought about that, like the you know,
Speaker 1: with like the circulatory system and the blood.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not good, especially for guys that were doing
Speaker 1: what they were doing in the eighties to be on
Speaker 1: a plane every day on top of it, that didn't.
Speaker 3: Help, especially the ones that had to have half a
Speaker 3: plane of because they were scared of flying.
Speaker 1: Scared. Oh yeah, yeah. There are many managers Jim Cornett
Speaker 1: talks about fear of flying. So so a promo day
Speaker 1: would just be Geneocland standing there and just one guy
Speaker 1: after another just step to the mic.
Speaker 3: Yep. Wow.
Speaker 1: How would you get a sense of what you were
Speaker 1: going to say? What was your process?
Speaker 3: Well, it basically was, you know, they had a team
Speaker 3: for us to work with, and then basically that team
Speaker 3: was the team we were going to work with and
Speaker 3: you know, the majority of the cities. And if it
Speaker 3: was Blackwell and Petera, if it was Bobby Duncombe and
Speaker 3: Jack Lands, Nick Barckwinkle and Ray Stevens, you know, that's
Speaker 3: what we would do. We would just you know, try
Speaker 3: to get them over as a heelled team and then
Speaker 3: just say, hey, you know, we're going to do our
Speaker 3: best and try to be as baby faced as possible,
Speaker 3: you know, without being braggadocious. And then you know, we
Speaker 3: did well. I mean, we were a good team, and
Speaker 3: and Brian and I were a good team and in
Speaker 3: New York, but it was just, you know, it was
Speaker 3: so hard in New York because it was so so demanding.
Speaker 3: And then you know, we did everything but get the
Speaker 3: belts and Well, to be honest with, Vince never liked me,
Speaker 3: and and consequently, you know, I didn't like him. We
Speaker 3: wound up suing him for the and we took a
Speaker 3: substantial amount of money from him. And then also, and
Speaker 3: I haven't told this so many people, but when when
Speaker 3: I left Minnesota, I got to New York, and you know,
Speaker 3: I did a couple of interviews and it's funny, We're
Speaker 3: in Poughkeepsie the first first day and they Jean did
Speaker 3: an interview with me, and you know, I'm a babyface interview.
Speaker 3: There's I'm not you know, I'm not feuding with anybody.
Speaker 3: And I did this, you know, rather babyface interview. And
Speaker 3: when I was done, as I was walking away, Vince says,
Speaker 3: oh god, we got another back.
Speaker 1: That's a shot.
Speaker 3: That's that's what I heard. And then I thought, well,
Speaker 3: Becklan's been the champion for two and a half years.
Speaker 1: I'll take that.
Speaker 3: But that's the way it was, you know, And I thought,
Speaker 3: oh Jesus, you know, oh god, it was just you know,
Speaker 3: and it was hard and thank God. I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, Dean Oakland was the best there was and
Speaker 3: and and this is something that I mentioned to a
Speaker 3: lot of people. A lot of people ask me who
Speaker 3: was the greatest personality all around wrestler in the business
Speaker 3: during your time? And I said, you know what I said,
Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you what Hulk Hogan said on
Speaker 3: that same question. And they asked hul Hogan who was
Speaker 3: the best all around wrestler and he said, Bobby Heenan.
Speaker 3: He said that guy was incredible. I mean, he he he,
Speaker 3: you know, he he knew the business inside out. And
Speaker 3: he just knew what to do. His timing was great,
Speaker 3: is you know, his interviews were spectacular. And then you know,
Speaker 3: he just played the part so well and he was
Speaker 3: just magnificent. And you know, one time he had four
Speaker 3: or five guys that he was representing, you know, and
Speaker 3: he'd do interviews and he was he was he was something.
Speaker 3: He used to hate to fly small planes.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, well some small planes.
Speaker 3: Yes, we had five nine one or five nine nine
Speaker 3: one niner.
Speaker 1: They call it death force one or something like suicidal.
Speaker 3: Well here's here's what Pampero Firpul, the wild Bull of
Speaker 3: the pumpaus. Yes, one time we were talking, we had
Speaker 3: a meeting, and he said to Vern, he says, he says,
Speaker 3: I don't like that plane. He says, it reminds me
Speaker 3: of a flying coffin.
Speaker 1: Did Hulk ever take the plane?
Speaker 3: Very so he flew? You know, first of all, he
Speaker 3: was too big to find that plane, you know, I
Speaker 3: mean we we had like five or six guys, and
Speaker 3: then Backwinkle was co pilot because he could fly, thank god,
Speaker 3: and then our regular pilot. But you know, a Hulk
Speaker 3: more or less, you know, they wanted him to fly.
Speaker 3: You know, he flew first class everywhere. Yeah, rightly, So
Speaker 3: you know, I mean that damn plane would have been
Speaker 3: way too small for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he would take in the a W A
Speaker 1: Hulk would take commercial airlines. Yes, I got it. Okay, fascinating.
Speaker 1: So on those promo days, is Hulk watching other wrestlers
Speaker 1: do promos? Like, did you guys watch each other too?
Speaker 3: We all, I'll tell you what it was. It was
Speaker 3: like the ring was set up and there was some
Speaker 3: rows of chairs on one side of the ring, and
Speaker 3: then then there was an alley way where they had
Speaker 3: that you know, the setup and the backdrop and the
Speaker 3: curtains for the interview, and then they had jeans standing
Speaker 3: in the middle and then the heels would sit on one
Speaker 3: side and the baby babyface sit on the other. And
Speaker 3: then you know, when they knew they were coming up,
Speaker 3: they'd read out the order bah blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: You know, you know, they just come up and then
Speaker 3: they do you know, Chicago, or they do Milwaukee, or
Speaker 3: they do you know Saint Paul Minneapolis, and then they
Speaker 3: just go right down and we were done, you know,
Speaker 3: in probably two hours, and then then had the Restalan
Speaker 3: on TV. And then getting a small plane or commercial
Speaker 3: and flight either Milwaukee, Chicago or Green Bay and do
Speaker 3: a house show.
Speaker 1: Did you see like Verne or Greg or anybody like
Speaker 1: be hands on with Hulk? Like, all right, this is
Speaker 1: because everyone talks about how he changes style. JP talked
Speaker 1: about it already when he's in Awa and starts understanding
Speaker 1: of Babyface promo. Do you remember seeing that ever, like
Speaker 1: in practice of Hulp being kind of coached along on
Speaker 1: how to change the way.
Speaker 3: No, No, he whatever he did. Vern liked it because
Speaker 3: it was drawing great money.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he was in a position. Hulk was in
Speaker 1: a position to kind of author it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yes he was. He was his own man.
Speaker 1: There's an interview getting outside help at all and.
Speaker 3: He no, I don't know. No, I think you know,
Speaker 3: Nick Barckwinkel might have talked to him a little bit,
Speaker 3: but it was it was, you know, not to the
Speaker 3: point where he was saying, hey, do it this way
Speaker 3: or you know, it was just something that he'd add
Speaker 3: that would add to the interview.
Speaker 1: There's one with him and Jean where Jeans holding the
Speaker 1: mic and helps his shades on and he goes, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm on a roll and Jean says, you've been on
Speaker 1: a roll all day and you can you can tell
Speaker 1: they're talking about cocaine. I mean's very clear.
Speaker 3: Well, that used to be prevalent, but then all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, I mean not they were all. You know.
Speaker 3: That was one of the worst things about w w
Speaker 3: fis because they worked us so hard at it, you know,
Speaker 3: and guys were you know, always either using you know,
Speaker 3: any amphetamines or coke or whatever it was to get
Speaker 3: him through the night, you know. And then when I
Speaker 3: was rolling, Jim Duggan got got in Masbury Bark, you know,
Speaker 3: with an eight ball of coke. That was pretty hard
Speaker 3: to explain, and neither one of them got fired.
Speaker 1: Look, I mean, Jim, I get it for you know,
Speaker 1: getting through the night, but I also think it would
Speaker 1: help you on those promos to come in a little bust, right, Well.
Speaker 3: I think so. And and there was a lot of
Speaker 3: anthetmines too, you know. I mean there was a dexagreene
Speaker 3: and all, you know, and then the guys would break
Speaker 3: them in half. And you know, originally when you drove,
Speaker 3: we drove everywhere, Yeah, I mean we and you know,
Speaker 3: we had a couple of guys that fell asleep and
Speaker 3: got killed, you know, in a car accident. And then
Speaker 3: some of the doctors would say, you know, I don't
Speaker 3: want that to happen to me, So you know, they'd
Speaker 3: give them a script for you know, five milligram dexagene,
Speaker 3: you know, twenty or thirty of them, and you know,
Speaker 3: just say, hey, you know, I'm doing this for you,
Speaker 3: but don't abuse it, you know, So everybody abused it.
Speaker 1: So well, yeah, it's it definitely helped with those promos
Speaker 1: because I mean.
Speaker 3: Oh godness, yeah.
Speaker 1: Some of them are just so wild and you can't
Speaker 1: imagine them in the right mind coming off that way.
Speaker 1: Jesse years later did an interview with a Grand Bessinger,
Speaker 1: and heind of talked about how, like Hulk was, Hulk
Speaker 1: could get you some stuff in the aw a days,
Speaker 1: like he knew how to get help me get your
Speaker 1: hands on I guess presumably steroids, but maybe other drugs.
Speaker 1: Was that part of the deal, Do you remember kind
Speaker 1: of having connections?
Speaker 3: You know what I will I will say this, and
Speaker 3: this is the honest truth. I never saw Hulk. I
Speaker 3: know he used to smoke a lot of weed, yes,
Speaker 3: but and that was his main deal.
Speaker 1: Never know this isn't a secret.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but I never you know, and I know
Speaker 3: that you know, he used a lot of steroids, you know,
Speaker 3: and he connections from La you know, at the Golds
Speaker 3: gym that you know, would take care of him. But
Speaker 3: as far as anything else, cocaine, you know, and he's sleeping, pills,
Speaker 3: pain pills, nothing. I never saw him, you know, talk
Speaker 3: to anybody about him or asked about it. It was,
Speaker 3: you know, it was just you know, he liked to smoke.
Speaker 3: He smoked that weed. And and then he had confided
Speaker 3: in me once one time he got a little carried
Speaker 3: away with the blow and he said, I realized that,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not I won't be able to do
Speaker 3: that because it, you know, sort of overtakes me.
Speaker 1: Oh I see, so he went a little too far. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: was that A W A Days or WWF do you remember? Roughly?
Speaker 3: I think it was before the A W A days even.
Speaker 1: Before Okay, so something already happened. Yeah, we talk about Gene.
Speaker 1: What would he What would he do? I mean just
Speaker 1: a classic, I mean, there will never be another. What
Speaker 1: would he do? To help you along? In interviews and
Speaker 1: the boys, like what role did he play that maybe
Speaker 1: we don't appreciate his fans to get you guys to
Speaker 1: do good.
Speaker 3: Promos, well, he would guide you through the promo if
Speaker 3: you were if you know, you know, he would you know,
Speaker 3: if say, for instance, I was wrestling Jerry Blackwell, he'd
Speaker 3: you know, talk about Jerry Blackwell's size and his demeanor
Speaker 3: and then he would guide you through the interview and
Speaker 3: I say, now, what are you going to do? You know,
Speaker 3: if he's four hundred pounds, if he does this, how
Speaker 3: are you going to counter that? I mean, he he
Speaker 3: he helped everybody you know where and see you know,
Speaker 3: you know, Jim, what are you gonna do against you know,
Speaker 3: Jerry Blackwell? You know he would he would preface it
Speaker 3: with a couple of sentences about strategy or whatever. And
Speaker 3: that's why he was the greatest.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're asolute, right, yeah, because you know, it's
Speaker 1: hard for us as fans to tell like what you
Speaker 1: guys are expecting to hear from Gene or whoever's holding
Speaker 1: the stick and what actually is improved and fed to
Speaker 1: you to get you to respond. So it's wild to
Speaker 1: hear that Gene would you know, come up with this
Speaker 1: stuff and you wouldn't even necessarily know it's coming, but
Speaker 1: lead you down a great Degrey.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was. He was one in a million. Two.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you mentioned Jerry Blackwell because we were
Speaker 1: so hungry for more detail on this on this guy, because,
Speaker 1: come to find out, as you might recall, he was
Speaker 1: absolutely pivotal to getting Hulk over as a baby face
Speaker 1: in the AWA. Hulk comes in, saves Brad Ringins from
Speaker 1: a beatdown in Milwaukee from Blackwell, body slaves bat Blackwell,
Speaker 1: and from then on until freaking nineteen ninety six, Hulk's
Speaker 1: the biggest baby face in the world. What what can
Speaker 1: you tell us about Jerry Blackwell? What he was like,
Speaker 1: what was his good traits, his bad traits? And Hulk
Speaker 1: using Blackwell's position in the company at the time to
Speaker 1: just skyrocket.
Speaker 3: Hang on here, I'm going to coughin. Jerry Blackwell was
Speaker 3: you know, I don't think he went past ninth grade.
Speaker 3: And you know, he was six feet and four hundred pounds,
Speaker 3: and he was a Georgia boy or whoever he was,
Speaker 3: and he was just you know, he he had great,
Speaker 3: great timing in the ring, and you know, for a
Speaker 3: guy four hundred pounds, he could move and he had
Speaker 3: he had good psychology, and he got over very well.
Speaker 3: And he you know, he knew that when he was
Speaker 3: dealing with Hulk that you know, if he had a
Speaker 3: good match, he's going to make a lot of money.
Speaker 3: So that's what happened. And you know, they they went
Speaker 3: around and and they had great match. And you know,
Speaker 3: Jerry was the type of guy that you know, even
Speaker 3: though he was here, you know, big in terms of
Speaker 3: being squatty, you know, he could still take bumps and
Speaker 3: he'd take bumps for a hook and let him slam
Speaker 3: him and back drop him and everything else. And and
Speaker 3: they just had a great match.
Speaker 1: Really did so, Jim, please let us know if you
Speaker 1: if you if you have to go. We got a
Speaker 1: couple more, but I don't want to abuse the privilege.
Speaker 3: Oh I got a couple. I got about ten more minutes.
Speaker 1: Okay, wonderful, JP. You want to jump into anything.
Speaker 3: I do need to know.
Speaker 2: I wanted to go back to uh to spending time
Speaker 2: at the at the house in Lake Minnetonka.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: What were what were dinners like at the at the
Speaker 2: at the gag the house.
Speaker 3: Well, Mary Guanya, Verne's wife was a hell of a cook,
Speaker 3: and they had a beautiful house, honestly, gud, I mean
Speaker 3: it was. It was probably a million and a half dollars,
Speaker 3: you know, and it was right on the lake shore
Speaker 3: and they had, you know, two hundred feet of lake
Speaker 3: shore and it was right on Lake Minnetonka, and they
Speaker 3: had like three boats. And I remember going over there
Speaker 3: a couple of times and I got holy smokes, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean they're sit down dinners, you know, and they
Speaker 3: had a real nice, real nice you know, just they
Speaker 3: bought out to find china and they impressed me. I
Speaker 3: mean it was nice and I appreciated the fact. And
Speaker 3: you know, like ver Insu's, you know, he was cooking
Speaker 3: steak and they had these little filets that were probably
Speaker 3: four ounces, and he says, go ahead, have so I
Speaker 3: had like four of them, you know, because I loved
Speaker 3: filet and they were done. He had it. He hired
Speaker 3: a cook to cook him and the cook them and
Speaker 3: then he had lobster on the other barbecue, and you know,
Speaker 3: he'd just say, if you want to beer, fine, a
Speaker 3: glass of wine, fine, but you know, don't overdo it.
Speaker 3: So I, you know, I have a glass of wine.
Speaker 3: But he was he was very cordial, and you know,
Speaker 3: he was a kind and he was a smart guy,
Speaker 3: and he knew what he had to do to cement
Speaker 3: the relationship between him and his talent, and he did it.
Speaker 1: That was part of it. The house visits. That's what
Speaker 1: we're so lucky that The Wrestler got made in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy four with that asner because we can see it. Yes,
Speaker 1: Verne puts that in the movie. You know, you guys
Speaker 1: are all sitting at the table. He says, my wife
Speaker 1: makes great lamb chops. Was that one of Mary's specialties?
Speaker 1: You remember? It probably was yeah, little little mint jelly maybe.
Speaker 3: Or no, oh god, yes, And you know, I got
Speaker 3: to tell you there was a place in Winnipeg. It
Speaker 3: was called High Steak Lost and it's in Toronto and
Speaker 3: I think Montreal, and their specialty was wreck a lamb
Speaker 3: and we Greg and I would split one and then
Speaker 3: we each have one and then would split a third.
Speaker 3: And it was absolutely to die for god, it was
Speaker 3: so good. And they had mint jelly, yeah, and it
Speaker 3: was just and I remember, well, here's another deal too
Speaker 3: up in Winnipeg. And and Verne was generous, even though
Speaker 3: you know, he was the promoter and they had a
Speaker 3: record house there and they had I think there was
Speaker 3: fourteen guys that he had at high stake left and
Speaker 3: Andrea was on the cart, and they had the biggest
Speaker 3: house they ever had. It was two hundred and some
Speaker 3: one thousand dollars, you know, and usually you know, a
Speaker 3: good house there was you know, eighty five to ninety
Speaker 3: five thousand, but this was over two hundred and so
Speaker 3: Andre who was a wine lover, and they had the
Speaker 3: special wine up. There was a sparkling rose. It was
Speaker 3: called Royal Dunaville. They drank twenty four bottles of it
Speaker 3: at that table. God, yeah, it was like thirty bucks
Speaker 3: a bottle.
Speaker 1: And normal behavior.
Speaker 3: And Andre must have he must have drank three himself.
Speaker 3: And it was I you know, as a matter of fact,
Speaker 3: I fancied this damn wine too. And every time I could,
Speaker 3: I try to, you know, bring home as much as
Speaker 3: they could, you know, as the customs, you know, and
Speaker 3: sometimes they'd only let's to have a bible of it
Speaker 3: or you know, and then then you had to put
Speaker 3: it in your bag. You couldn't carry it on. So
Speaker 3: but it was you know, and that's and Thurn was
Speaker 3: generous you know in that respect, you know, And everybody
Speaker 3: you know, had a great time, and then you know,
Speaker 3: they'd say, well, let's wait until we get paid, but
Speaker 3: go ahead.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the story of Hulk and AWA two is like
Speaker 1: he came in Rocky three, was going and that any
Speaker 1: catapult to a whole other level. But the truth is
Speaker 1: the movie didn't come out until May of nineteen eighty two,
Speaker 1: and he came into Minneapolis in August nineteen eighty one,
Speaker 1: so he was already turned face super over, one of
Speaker 1: the biggest hands in the territory and in the country
Speaker 1: at the time before the movie even hit the screens.
Speaker 1: Do you remember how much of a difference it made
Speaker 1: that that movie came out to how over Hulk was, you.
Speaker 3: Know what I think it added, but he was already there.
Speaker 3: I mean, the people, the wrestling fans, you know, and
Speaker 3: not that they don't go to MOVI, but they probably
Speaker 3: went to the movie to see Hulk COVID, you know,
Speaker 3: the wrestling fans did, and it just sort of compounded
Speaker 3: his you know, his fans in terms of him being
Speaker 3: over you know, he just you know, the people would
Speaker 3: I mean when when when I used to bring him
Speaker 3: to these little nightclubs and the spand our friends were
Speaker 3: playing that. How could come in there and they you know,
Speaker 3: he'd have to have the they'd have to have special
Speaker 3: guards around him, you know, because you know, people would
Speaker 3: always want pictures and sign autographs and everything. And then
Speaker 3: and then how could come up and down going through
Speaker 3: those changes? And he played the bass. I'm trying to
Speaker 3: think of the of the guy who made that popular.
Speaker 1: But so you're saying Hulk in these night clubs would
Speaker 1: take grab the bass and play it, or.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he grabbed the bass guitar.
Speaker 1: Well, that must have been so fascinating to see him
Speaker 1: get that over. I mean, did did it feel different
Speaker 1: walking into a club with him versus anybody else in?
Speaker 3: Oh? God? Yes, he was, you know, I mean he was.
Speaker 3: He was like having Bruce Springsteen walking into the bar
Speaker 3: with you, you know, yeah, I mean he was just
Speaker 3: the people love them.
Speaker 1: What was it, Jim? I mean, you're such a respected,
Speaker 1: longtime veteran, You've been to so many places, you've seen
Speaker 1: guys get over. Why did the fans just say, even
Speaker 1: though he was presented as a heel at first, this
Speaker 1: is our guy.
Speaker 3: I think he had he had a little bit of
Speaker 3: humility that he showed, and I think along with the
Speaker 3: you know, the persona of you know, being Hull Cogan.
Speaker 3: You know, he mixed in that little bit of humanity
Speaker 3: that that people saw in him and you know realized that, hey,
Speaker 3: he's one of.
Speaker 1: Us, one of us, but also someone quite special. So
Speaker 1: Jim Brenzel, unbelievable reflections on the aw eightt the time
Speaker 1: Hulk arrives. You've helped the much understand what it was
Speaker 1: like in that territory at a pivotal point for this one
Speaker 1: of a kind career. And we can't thank you enough
Speaker 1: for giving us some time.
Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate it. It's always fun to talk about that.
Speaker 3: And carry was a wonderful guy. And I missed his
Speaker 3: funeral because my wife and I had a fiftieth anniversary
Speaker 3: up in Canada. We were on a cruise and then
Speaker 3: I came back and I found out that he passed.
Speaker 3: And then a day later I got COVID and I
Speaker 3: couldn't go down there, and I was just sick because
Speaker 3: he was such a close friend. And you know, I
Speaker 3: talked to I didn't talk to Linda, but I talked
Speaker 3: to you know, Brian, who was probably one of Oaks's
Speaker 3: closest friends. And I just said hey, you know, tell
Speaker 3: everybody I'm sorry. I couldn't make it, but Mary and I,
Speaker 3: you know, I got COVID, so I felt bad. And
Speaker 3: you know, everybody asked about him, and I said, hey,
Speaker 3: he was what he was. He was, you know, the
Speaker 3: greatest performer of my air in the ring