WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.960 --> 00:00:11.400 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.480 --> 00:00:14.480 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:21.839 written about them Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.879 --> 00:00:25.559 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:30.199 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:40.359 journalist and author Dan Zupansky, Good Evening. 7 00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:45.520 Long before Brooklyn was known as the world's hippos neighborhood, 8 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:50.600 it was the deadliest, the cd dangerous under belly of 9 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:54.920 New York City, where mobsters and gangs could commit murder 10 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:59.640 and dump dead bodies without getting caught. For more than 11 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:02.799 a hunterundred years, the Red Hook section of Brooklyn was 12 00:01:02.920 --> 00:01:08.879 ground zero for organized crime. Whoever controlled the peers controlled everything, 13 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:13.000 from the infamous Irish gang known as the White Hand 14 00:01:13.079 --> 00:01:16.719 at the turn of the century to the notorious Italian 15 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:22.799 Gallo brothers who ran President Street and everything else generations later. 16 00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:26.680 The blood soaked history of Red Hook is the story 17 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:31.439 of American crime at its most powerful, corrupt, and coldly efficient. 18 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:36.719 It's all here the brutal mob hits, bullet storms and 19 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:41.319 backstabbings of the most colorful cutthroats to ever terrorize the streets, 20 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:46.560 a rogue's gallery of killers with nicknames like the Mad Hatter, 21 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:52.439 the Executioner, Wild Bill, and peg Lake. The Brooklyn bar 22 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:57.280 fight that gave Al Scarface Capone his legendary scars, The 23 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:03.159 godfather of America's first Sicilian crime family, whose gruesomely mangled 24 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:07.760 hand good scare men half to death. And to bring 25 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:12.199 it all home, the author's own eyewitness account of multiple 26 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:16.159 shootings growing up as the son of a mafia bodyguard. 27 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:20.159 The book that were featuring this evening is Red Hook 28 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:26.159 Brooklyn Mafia Ground Zero, with my special guests, authors Frank D. 29 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:30.919 Matteo and Michael Benson. Welcome to the program, and thank 30 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:34.280 you very much for this interview. Michael Benson and Frank D. 31 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:34.840 Matteo. 32 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:37.879 Thanks Dan, thanks for having us, Thank you. 33 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:41.599 Thank you very much, and congratulations on this new book, 34 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:44.919 Red Hook Brooklyn Mafia Ground Zero. 35 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:51.240 Thank you, Thanks, thanks a lot. Yeah, it was Frank's idea. 36 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:54.319 First book we wrote together was called Carmine the Snake. 37 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:57.960 Carmi Persico and publisher wanted to know what we wanted 38 00:02:57.960 --> 00:02:59.479 to do for an encore and we made a list 39 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:03.800 and Frank's idea to do a book called Red Hook, 40 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:09.120 which was about the neighborhood rather than about any particular gangster. 41 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:11.080 Apparently the idea was ahead of its time because we 42 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:16.080 ended up doing albert Anastasia. But we got around to it, 43 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:18.719 and the second time I had my elevator pitched down 44 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:21.599 and sold it and it's yeah. It's a book that 45 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:25.120 takes place in a neighborhood in Brooklyn, a very special 46 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:31.120 specific neighbors. It was initially occupied by the Lenape Indians 47 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:35.479 and they were then slaughtered by the Dutch, which sort 48 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:37.840 of the way RedHook stayed the whole time it was. 49 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:43.639 The book has incredible body count for those that like murders. 50 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:48.120 And just before the Civil War, Red Hook was a village. 51 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:52.759 It was neighbors sharing a town pump, fifteen goats clattering 52 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:55.960 over the cobblestones of Dykeman Street on the way to Grayze. 53 00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:59.360 It had feral dog. They weren't coyotes, but the kinrent 54 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:03.680 acted like iotes. Wild dogs never been touched by man, 55 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:05.960 and they were all over the place on the southern 56 00:04:06.039 --> 00:04:08.520 part of Red Hook, and they were there for more 57 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:12.000 than one hundred years. It wasn't until Ikea came in 58 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:15.599 with their big department store that they finally wiped out 59 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:18.639 the very old dog problem. But you know, Frank likes 60 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:20.720 to talk about Red Hook like it's the Old West, 61 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:23.319 and the fact that there are wild dogs running around 62 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:26.920 just seems to make it more atmospheric. Could almost imagine 63 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:28.839 a tumbleweed going by, but they didn't have those in 64 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:31.600 Red Hook. But red Hook, red Hook was where the 65 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:36.199 docks were, so that brought in an organized crime, first 66 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:37.600 the Irish and then the Italians. 67 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:42.879 And you mentioned the White Hand, so tell us about 68 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:44.759 the Black Hand and the White Hand. 69 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:50.480 Well that the White Hand was Irish gangs that ran 70 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.000 the docks during the first part of the twentieth century. 71 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:56.040 Compared to the Italians that come in there are pretty civilized. 72 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:59.480 But there were an awful lot of murders. Mostly the 73 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:01.720 head of the White Hand would get bumped off by 74 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:03.079 the guy who wanted to be the head of the 75 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:06.000 White Hand, and they just they just ran through leaders 76 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:10.439 like crazy. From John Moroney in nineteen twelve to while 77 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:13.160 Bill Lovett in nineteen twenty three, peg leg down again 78 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:18.720 in nineteen thirty, it's eighteen years of every guy, I mean, 79 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:22.439 nobody gets to retire. Everybody dies in the line of duty. 80 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:24.480 When you're the head of the White Hand, and it's 81 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:26.959 all internal. I mean there was a White Hand versus 82 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:29.639 Black Hand war as well, which was also bloody, but 83 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.000 the White Hand did itself in. They would drink too 84 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:34.680 much and go out and shoot. There's one scene where 85 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.000 there are three guys vying for the leadership of the 86 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:40.600 White Hand standing on a dock and they draw straws 87 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:42.439 to see who will be the boss, and the guy 88 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:45.360 that wins then gets shot by the other two. He 89 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:49.079 was the leader for bight nine seconds maybe tops. 90 00:05:50.120 --> 00:05:53.120 You talk about all the leadership that came and went 91 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:57.639 in this Red Hook, over this enjuring this one hundred years, 92 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.439 and you take us to some of the things that 93 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:04.000 the gangs concentrated on, and you talk about the physical 94 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:06.920 girl market. Just tell us a little bit about this. 95 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:09.920 Yeah, they and that I was pretty shocked by this. 96 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:13.079 In Red Hook, there was like a store where you 97 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:17.040 went to buy girls and they were cheaper than steers, 98 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.519 cheaper than cheaper than cattle, and you could go and 99 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:22.600 it was it was an auction, you know. They put 100 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.319 them up there on the stage and the girls were 101 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.879 mostly you know, kidnapped and brought there. Most of the 102 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:30.879 ones who were sold in Red Hook were brought in 103 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:33.959 from other places, and girls who were kidnapped in Red 104 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:37.560 Hook were then taken someplace else to be sold because 105 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:40.040 they found it was easier to keep them captive if 106 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:43.720 they didn't know where they were. That's that's the kind 107 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:45.040 of primitive world we're dealing with. 108 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:49.519 Back then, you write about notorious gangsters like al Capone. 109 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.680 He went to school in Red Hook, back in South Brooklyn, 110 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:57.000 and later on his mission was what you write. 111 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:01.079 He was a catalyst for change. Yeah, al Capone grew 112 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:03.879 up in Brooklyn. He got his he got his famous 113 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:06.519 scars on his face in Coney Island and a knife fight. 114 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:09.519 He insulted some guy's sister and he kicked the guy 115 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:13.160 came up with a knife. He got married in Red Hook. 116 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:18.040 He suffered from syphilis, and his son was born with 117 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:21.439 congenital syphilis. That he was. He went to Chicago for 118 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.600 a while because he was, you know, doing things for 119 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:28.759 the Chicago boys. But they sent him back to make 120 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:31.279 sure that the Irish weren't in charge of the Brooklyn 121 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:34.800 docks anymore. So he's, uh, he's in Brooklyn and his 122 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:38.120 son is getting an operation on his ear, something to 123 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:41.399 do with the congenital syphilis and al Capone's in a 124 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.680 in a club just on the other side of the 125 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:50.040 Guanas Canal from Red Hook. In walks peg leg Don 126 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:53.920 again limps in because he's got his nickname because he 127 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:55.759 fell in front of a trolley car when he was eight. 128 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.759 And this is three am on December two, twenty sixth 129 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:05.199 now Marry Christmas, and peg Lake comes in, starts saying 130 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:09.839 some stuff about Italians, and lights go out. It's gunfire. 131 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:13.959 Lights come back on again, places emptied out and peg 132 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:15.639 Lake down again. A couple of his friends are dead 133 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:19.600 on the floor, and after that the black Hand moved in. 134 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:23.319 I think Frankie Yale was with him that night at 135 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:27.000 that the Donna's Club when they did that kill him. 136 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:28.639 Try it's called the Adona's Club, that's right. 137 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:30.639 Yes, I think it was Frankie Yale was dealing with him. 138 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:35.159 And Frank Yale gets whacked by a crew that includes 139 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:39.120 Frank Costello. So you know, life goes on, Yeah. 140 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:40.639 That's how it works. 141 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.600 You also write about another figure in this story, the 142 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:45.960 Mad Hatter, m Berto Anastasia. 143 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:50.919 He was a young man in Red Hook. He killed 144 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:54.720 His first kills were in Red Hook, and he himself 145 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:56.960 was wounded as a young man in red Hook, which, 146 00:08:57.080 --> 00:09:01.840 interestingly it happened the corner of Henry and Sacket Streets, 147 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:04.879 where I lived for two years in the late seventies. 148 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:06.639 I lived in red Hook for a couple of years. 149 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:11.360 Real estate agents had renamed the uppermost portions of red 150 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:16.000 Hook to remove the stigma and get better prices for 151 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.279 the property. So Carroll Gardens, Cobble Hill, it's all red 152 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:24.639 Hook geographically. And yeah, I lived above Mark's Pharmacy, looking 153 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:27.879 right down on the corner across the street from Camerary's Bakery, 154 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:30.600 which is featured in the movie Moonstruck. 155 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:33.559 What deal was that when you lived down in Theahwood. 156 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:36.000 The seventy nine and eighty and they used to tell 157 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:38.519 me don't go on the other side of the expressway, 158 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:42.039 And now I know it's because you were there. That's right, 159 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:48.759 whatever you do, don't go over there by President Street. 160 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:49.840 There's tough guys there. 161 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:50.039 No. 162 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:52.399 We had Kami's Bakery right a cross street from where 163 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:54.440 you lived, that's right right right right there. 164 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:57.759 We had a social club, a time social club right 165 00:09:57.799 --> 00:09:58.360 next door to. 166 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:02.320 That, yeah, right, yeah, and your guys used to parade 167 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:03.440 at three in the morning. 168 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:05.320 Yeah, that was up and. 169 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:08.320 Down the street, waking everybody up, banging pots. 170 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:12.440 We don't sleep, and the press and the precinct was 171 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:14.399 right on the corner, right around the corner. 172 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:17.240 Yes it was. 173 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:18.679 It was a It was a good neighbor when you 174 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:19.080 lived there. 175 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:19.639 It wasn't bead. 176 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:21.960 Oh No, I had a good time. 177 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:26.519 You mentioned the President Street Boys, and and also we 178 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:31.559 should be talking about the Gallows, the Gallo brothers parents, 179 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.559 Albert and Mary Gallo, So tell us about the President's 180 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:40.320 Street Boys and it's relation to Red Hook. Where is 181 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:42.000 the President Street? 182 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:45.519 Before the Gallows got involved the gall Of brothers, there 183 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:49.440 was always gangs in the neighborhood and there was a 184 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:52.919 crew of you know, young guys called the pressure Sreet 185 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:56.279 Boys well before the Gallup Blaters came there. So when 186 00:10:56.279 --> 00:10:59.399 the Gallup Bluter's got there, you know, there was gangs already, 187 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:03.840 they just organized them a little better. The three tough 188 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:07.639 guys from you know, from Brooklyn that wind up, I 189 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.840 think they're from Kenningston, originally part of Brooklyn, and they 190 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:16.879 went downtown because their family had some property on President Street, 191 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:20.240 and they wound up just kept on buying on President 192 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:23.960 and wound up building a little fortress down there, and 193 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:27.399 three brothers that were very influential came up to the 194 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:31.919 ranks with the Joe Pafacci and the crazy guys have 195 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:32.919 made a name for themselves. 196 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.559 Michael, tell us about this what considered crazy Joe Gallo, 197 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:43.399 and you say he was there personified, and tell us 198 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:45.919 about the Profacci crew as well. 199 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.720 The thing about Joey was nobody knew just how crazy 200 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:52.919 he really was. And as Frank once said, and I 201 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:56.080 think he puts his finger on it is, Joey's insanity 202 00:11:56.200 --> 00:12:02.720 had its own intelligence. He was kind of a split personality, 203 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:07.559 but both sides were three dimensional in full, and he 204 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.399 could switch back and forth. He could be charming, he 205 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:11.720 could hang out with celebrities and be one of the 206 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:14.799 hip and in crowd, shining like a star. And at 207 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:17.320 the other the other end of the spectrum, he could 208 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:21.879 be just a tremendous sadist, killer, torture, just a tremendously 209 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:25.600 bad guy, a guy who never had any trouble getting 210 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:27.360 people to pay their bills. 211 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:32.879 You said that crazy Joe made this Profaci very very nervous, 212 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:36.720 and so as a result, what you chronicle, what did 213 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:39.639 Profacci do with Joey Gallo? 214 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:44.519 Perfacci. Profacci was a successful businessman. He was he had 215 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:48.120 an oil olive oil empire, and he was one of 216 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:51.200 the ran one of the five families of New York. 217 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:54.960 Joey made him nervous. He thought that Joey might be 218 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:59.559 on drugs, so he kidnapped him and held him in 219 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:02.039 a room to get him to see if he would 220 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:04.759 withdraw from whatever, goofballs or whatever he thought he was 221 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:07.480 on and said there weren't any drugs, there was nothing 222 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:10.279 to withdraw from. But by the time they let Joey go, 223 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:14.320 he hated Profacci's guts. I mean he just hold me 224 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:17.000 captive for three days to find out if I'm using drugs. 225 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:21.960 That's yeah, just check my arms. So and that that 226 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:25.159 that started a war. After that, Joey didn't want to 227 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.399 be part of the Profaccis. Want to be his own thing, 228 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:29.519 want to be his own boss, want his brother Larry 229 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:31.200 to be the boss. He would just be the the 230 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:34.840 X factor, the the right hand man who did most 231 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:39.759 of the moving and shaking. Frank's dad got his start 232 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:44.960 in the in the life being Larry Gello's bodyguard, which 233 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:46.240 tell us about that Frank. 234 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:52.320 Well, my father was a bouncer in the early late 235 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:56.919 fifties for Tony Bender. Larry and Joey would try and 236 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:59.840 when they were trying to break away from joe Brafacci 237 00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:02.759 to we're getting some help from the Genervesi family, and 238 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.080 they would go up to the bar to go see 239 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:07.559 you know, to see him. So what happened was my 240 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:11.080 father was bouncing there and he wound up meeting the 241 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:14.399 Galla brothers. They took a liking to my father, and 242 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:17.360 he wound up coming back to Brooklyn and wound up 243 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:22.720 being a bodyguard for Larry sixty one to sixty eight. 244 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.480 They were very, very very close until Larry's death. 245 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:30.639 How old were you when you saw your first murder, Frank. 246 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:33.799 I was six. I was six. I was on the 247 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:37.159 corner of Fourth d Avenue and Union Street, coming out 248 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:41.000 of that apartment building. Me and my mother were visiting someone. 249 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:42.720 A couple of guys on the corner got to an 250 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:47.840 argument and one shot the other. You know, Like I 251 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:50.960 always say, I tell the story, it wasn't that dramatic, 252 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:55.279 you know. It was it was bang bang guy from 253 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:58.759 the floor, you know, and I wished away. 254 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.480 I mean, I I got you out of there. 255 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.919 Yeah, my god, idea because the shots being fired. But 256 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.039 I found out who the guy was later on that 257 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:10.480 we knew the guy, you know, from a closer street. 258 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:12.639 I didn't know who it was, and it happened so fast, 259 00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:15.000 but you know, the next day that find out who 260 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:17.279 it was, and then I know the story afterwards. But 261 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:20.039 it was I always said, it wasn't that. It wasn't 262 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.519 that scary or frightening. You know. I just didn't get 263 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:25.480 affected by it at all. 264 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:28.840 It'd be a better story if you were traumatized. But 265 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:32.840 if that's okay, well, yeah, that's not the only time 266 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:36.960 they were shooting in your vicinity. Twice snipers cut down 267 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.879 somebody was standing near you on President Street, right. 268 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:43.440 Yeah, And I mean MBO got shot at. We got 269 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:47.000 during the war in the seventies, we got shot at. 270 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:51.639 I lost a beautiful nineteen sixty six Cadillac. They put 271 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:54.320 it about half a dozen bullet holes for us. Thank god, 272 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.799 will they shoot well? But yeah, we got shot at. 273 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.519 Guys got shot at next to me, you know, down 274 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.600 the block for me, or on the same block as us. 275 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.919 I was on the corner with the with Punchy Leano 276 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:09.960 Frank Leana when they shot him in the neck. Sniper 277 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:12.679 from down the block. So you know, that was a 278 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:14.679 little scary and tell you true, you know, because you 279 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:16.159 don't know where the bullets were coming from. You had 280 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:19.039 a duck on the floor and scatter. But you don't 281 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.840 get scared, you know, you get the more frustrated mad 282 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:24.080 than scared. 283 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:26.799 But it's it's an experience. 284 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:31.679 Well, that's why I think mafia books are different from 285 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:34.759 other true crime books is it's more like armies at 286 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:40.799 war than it is like, you know, murderers and victims. Well, 287 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:44.000 we shoot Juli, you shoot back. That's the way. That's 288 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:44.600 the way it goes. 289 00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:46.759 Yeah, because it's it's a mentality. 290 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:49.759 It's not just you know, it's really a mentality that 291 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:58.440 this is a business and everything goes when in it murder, beatings, robbing, stealing, 292 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:00.399 whatever you want to call it. And it's they actually 293 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.519 believe it's structured that way, and it's right. 294 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.640 There's a big chunk of the book about juvenile delinquency 295 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:11.200 in Red Hook and how the street corner truants of 296 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.920 yesterday become the big boyhoods of today. A dis proportionate 297 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.240 number of juvenile delinquents in Brooklyn lived in Red Hook 298 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:21.319 from most of the twentieth century schools were a war zone. 299 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:25.799 And you asked earlier about the geographic nature of Red 300 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:29.279 Hook and where President Street was. President Street was right 301 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:37.039 on the docks, just north of the Battery Tunnel and Redhooks, 302 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.920 I think stays the way it is because when Robert 303 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.240 Moses cut up Brooklyn, he kind of isolated. It's now 304 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:46.519 an island. It's very difficult to get in and out 305 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:50.359 of Battery Tunnel, Brooklyn, Queen's Expressway going on as Canal, 306 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:54.000 Buttermilk Channel and the Lower New York Bay all border it, 307 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:58.400 and they are all things that drivers and pedestrians have 308 00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:02.400 difficulty getting across. So there's a little bit of a 309 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:05.920 fortress feel with a motor around it to Red Hook, 310 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:10.240 which was not impregnable obviously since the shooters got in 311 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:11.839 there and then did their damage. 312 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:16.079 Let's talk about the Gallows and the Profacis where the 313 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:19.319 Profacis were assigning the brothers to one of the biggest 314 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:23.799 hits in mob history, and that's the hit on albert Anastasia. 315 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.279 So tell us where they're at at that time. You 316 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:29.720 say that Prafaci is afraid of Joey Gallo, but they're 317 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:32.880 employing them to do like as you write one of 318 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:34.960 the most the biggest hits in mob history. 319 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.640 Afraid of him, worried about him. These guys worry about 320 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:43.240 every guy around them because when you're on top, everybody 321 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:46.359 wants your spot. So Joey being out of the box, 322 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:48.759 you do worry about him a little more. But they're 323 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:53.480 very Joey and very useful to Perfacci. So these guys 324 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:56.160 are greedy, they don't They use you as much as 325 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.319 they can. So when they had to do the hit 326 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:03.079 on abananis Asia, the way I get the story by 327 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:10.039 sitting with these guys is that Pafacci gave Joey, Larry, Joe, Jelly, 328 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:13.599 and Carmen Persaco the hit the goal to co kill 329 00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:17.559 Albert because those they were young, they were making their 330 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.480 bones at the time, and they get the assignment. And 331 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:27.839 that's why Larry, Joey and Calmen persaal got their buttons 332 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:33.279 right after that explained as that Patch wasn't really crazy 333 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:36.880 about Joey, and right after that hit he got Joey 334 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:42.079 got straightened out. I mean, it's so obvious that he 335 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.440 heard his button and that in those days, that's how 336 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.680 he had had to earn it. So that's why I 337 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:50.640 you know fully believed it, and then sitting with the 338 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:53.440 guys who to the guys that did the killing. 339 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:57.039 They never came out said it, but they make them. 340 00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:02.359 Yeah what they call little what's the world? And she 341 00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:03.160 went those. 342 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:08.079 Yeah, you would hate them, yeah. 343 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:10.680 And or someone else would say that guy did that, 344 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:12.960 you know so I mean, and you. 345 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:14.759 Don't go around you can't in this life. 346 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:17.039 You can't go around saying that you did something like 347 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:20.400 that and not do you'll be laughing stock. Or you're good, 348 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:21.400 get yourself in trouble. 349 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:27.039 So tell that to the Irishman exactly exactly. 350 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:29.640 So it was a big hit for them and that's 351 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:30.720 how they got straightened out. 352 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:36.000 Let's talk about how your father, Rick de Matteo comes 353 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:39.839 into the picture after all of this violence in Red Hook. 354 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:42.680 Well, my father came to picture clothes. They were on 355 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.359 the breakaway with Joe Bafacci. They needed more bodies. My 356 00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:50.079 father being an xboxer and and a tough guy at 357 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:52.359 the time, they recruited more guys and you wind up, 358 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.000 you know, being with Larry and being his bodyguard. And 359 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:58.559 then during the war they wind up fathers one of 360 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:01.160 the shooters on the on a commons hit when they 361 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.960 shot him with an event, and when they had a 362 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:08.480 vanda and went to go kill Carmine, he was on that. 363 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:11.079 So he had to leave for a few months because 364 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.079 Carma lived up through that that hit. So he went 365 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:16.000 away to California for about four or five months and 366 00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.519 lived in clid Clear And it was just very instrumental 367 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:23.079 of being with Larry until Larry died and then he 368 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:25.359 wound up being with Albert Galla. 369 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:30.319 Now tell us about your childhood and Red Hook and 370 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:34.079 how you became involved with this crew as well. 371 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:40.400 My father was Larry Gallow's bodyguard. My uncle is Joe 372 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:43.559 Chappani which is Jenny Veci. That was that was with 373 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:47.319 Joe Adonis and and Frank Costello and Lucky and Lucky Luciano. 374 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:50.440 So I mean, and my godfather Bobby bo Giovanni which 375 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:53.680 is Bobby Davio, was straight up murderer hit me in 376 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:56.359 the for the crew. So yeah, being brought up on 377 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.440 these guys, you you pick up the trade to pick 378 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.759 up their mannerisms even if they're you know, not even purposely. 379 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.680 And then when you grow up, you know, some guys, 380 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.559 parents keep guys away from things, and some other parents 381 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:15.319 bring guys in if they see things that they that 382 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.359 they notice, things they like about something. I wand up 383 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:21.440 being when I was old enough to start driving, I 384 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:22.880 want to driving my father around. 385 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:25.680 You're like thirteen, right, thirteen years old? 386 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:28.920 Yeah, thirteen years old drive my father around. Then I 387 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:31.720 started driving Joe Chepperound and Bobby and my and my 388 00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:32.640 godfather Bobby. 389 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.960 That's why I started. You started by driving doing flunky stuff. 390 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:39.160 You go to the stores, you want to make errands, 391 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:41.920 and then you start picking up money, and then you start, 392 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:47.039 you know, doing stuff that that's not legal. And then 393 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:51.319 being around that life, especially downtown Brooklyn, you get to 394 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:53.200 know people. People come to you, they know you with 395 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:56.720 Joey Gallo or they know you're without, but they come 396 00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:58.400 to you with things. They come to you with scores, 397 00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:00.559 They come to you with the things that do and 398 00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:04.279 try to fence things from you and try to to you. 399 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:07.640 So you just give them hom deeper, deeper into this life, 400 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:11.319 you know, and being a younger guy, and then when 401 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:13.880