WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:10.599 Something's going to happen. What's going to happen? 2 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:27.320 I welcome to the Occult Rejects. 3 00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:30.480 This episode, we got a very very special guest, somebody 4 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.479 that we're all excited about getting on. But before we 5 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:37.039 introduce him, going to introduce the other rejects of joining us. 6 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:37.759 Uh. 7 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:38.880 First, we're going to start off. 8 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:41.479 We've got the lovely Lisa could reject MADA scientists joining 9 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:41.880 us today. 10 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:43.439 How are you, Lisa? What is going on? 11 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:45.039 I'm good? 12 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:48.320 Thank you for having me on. I'm very very excited 13 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.799 to talk to Gary today. I've read through a little 14 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:54.880 bit of his excerpts and stuff like that. I've also 15 00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:57.359 watched some of his interviews that he's out over the years, 16 00:00:57.399 --> 00:00:59.759 So very excited to kind of hear what he has 17 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:02.719 to say, you know, be in the discussion. So thank 18 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:05.000 you for having me on with the fellow rechecks. And 19 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:07.000 the only thing I'd like to plug is the whole 20 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:09.560 Research Institute dot org check us out. 21 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:12.400 Awesome. Thank you very much and I appreciate you making 22 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:16.040 and we got Jin the Ninja. What is going on? Sir? 23 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:18.959 Hey boss, thank you so much for inviting me on. 24 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:21.719 I'm really excited for this. I listened to as you know, 25 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:27.079 preparatory episode with Gary on the Mage as the Mage 26 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:30.799 of the podcast, which was really fascinating and incredible interview. 27 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:33.959 I've got also questions for him, obviously I'll save some 28 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.000 of them, but so if you want to follow me, 29 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:39.000 you can on Twitter at woucong Reborn, w uk O 30 00:01:39.079 --> 00:01:40.000 and g Reborn or. 31 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:41.599 The show at Threshold Saints. 32 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:45.159 Also for ig at Threshold Saints and for The Gray Lodge, 33 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:48.799 which is the show that I co host with four 34 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:53.680 other three other boys on Friday nights. You can follow 35 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.120 us at The True Gray Lodge with a V not 36 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:58.719 a you, the True Late Gray Lodge dot com, as 37 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:01.519 well as our YouTube channel, The Great Lodge. So thank 38 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:03.359 you guys so much and I'm really excited. 39 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:05.959 Awesome, thank you very much for making it. And we 40 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:08.000 got Robbie Marks himself. What is going on, sir? 41 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:12.560 How are you? Oh? It might be. 42 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:16.840 Muted, Yeah, basically, I've just been working on a piece 43 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:20.360 of art all day for a local event. In regard 44 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.360 to the whole rock and roll thing, Gary, I'm a 45 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:28.120 big fan of you know, traditional everything. Leading up I 46 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:32.039 do a lot of concert and festival posters for various 47 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:35.800 bands and also you know, miscellaneous mom and pop shops. 48 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:39.960 If anybody wants to check out my other stuff, you 49 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:42.639 can go to my link tree which is r M 50 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:45.840 A r X and that'll pull up all my links 51 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:49.599 as far as my artwork, my podcast, The metamind Cast, 52 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:53.680 and very much like you, I was very enthusiastic about 53 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:57.120 this stuff, and as time has progressed, I've become much 54 00:02:57.199 --> 00:03:01.199 more interested in the historical aspect and the arcs and 55 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.719 all the different things associated with it, as it's kind of, 56 00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:08.680 you know, fractalized through the whole. But yeah, thanks for 57 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:10.680 having me on, Nick, Yeah. 58 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:11.240 Of course, of course. 59 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.280 And finally the guest himself again, we have a very 60 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:18.800 special guest, Gary Lackman, who was an American writer and 61 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:22.159 a musician. He was Blondie's original bassist and songwriter who 62 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:26.319 went by Gary Valentine. We are having him on today 63 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:27.759 to talk about a book that will be coming out 64 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:31.719 called Touched by Presence From Blondie's Bowery and Rock and Roll. 65 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:32.759 To Magic in the Occult. 66 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:35.080 But I will say I highly suggest to go check 67 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:37.560 out some of the stuff he's already done, already in 68 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:40.919 a written form. He has a Dark Star Rising, which 69 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:43.599 I think our listeners might be interested in because you know, 70 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:47.080 I always loved showing Trump and the occult, so I 71 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:49.319 think you guys would be very entertained by that. And 72 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:51.479 he has done stuff on Crowley and you know, you 73 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:53.759 guys talk about Crole and I talk about the Lima, 74 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.840 So go check that out. But enough out of me, Gary, 75 00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:59.280 please introduce yourself and let everybody know what your deal 76 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:01.759 is and plug anything that you'd like to plug. 77 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:07.039 All right, Well, Hi, I'm Gary Lachman. I'm a Yank 78 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:10.560 living in London. I've been living here for nearly thirty 79 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:15.520 years now. And actually the book that Nick mentioned touched 80 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:19.920 by the presence, It ends with my leaving Los Angeles 81 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:22.279 at the end of nineteen ninety five and getting on 82 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:27.360 a plane to arrive here in London in the beginning 83 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:31.319 of nineteen ninety six. In my second or third fourth 84 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:34.000 kind of career. There was like two careers I started. 85 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:36.480 I was in Musician Asians Ago, I played in Blondie 86 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:38.959 and I had my own band for a while, and 87 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.759 then I played with Icky Pop and all those people 88 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:43.600 turn out in the book turned up in the book 89 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:45.199 I'm plugging. This is what I'm plugging, and plugging in 90 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:47.279 the books. I'm doing that right now. They're all in there, 91 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:51.240 a bunch of other folk. But also I transitioned, as 92 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:55.600 people say, from while I was playing rock to getting 93 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:58.519 interested in magic and the occult and Crowley and all 94 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:00.279 that sort of thing. Yes, and I did write book 95 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:04.079 about Crowley many years later. It's Alista Crowley, Magic, Rock 96 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:08.279 and Roll in the what is it? The Wickedest Man 97 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:12.279 in the World, And that came out about ten years ago. 98 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:14.759 So but I've written quite a few other books as well. 99 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:17.240 We'll get onto that. So, yeah, this is fun. Yeah, 100 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:20.240 I haven't been on this program before, so let's go 101 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:20.560 for it. 102 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:25.079 Yeah. Well, I guess does anybody have a question before 103 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:26.079 I start getting into it? 104 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:30.519 O quick, I'll ask my question if you don't mind, neck, 105 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:32.920 just because I think it starts a little bit before 106 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:37.680 Gary starts his autobiography, is that I'm really fascinated, as 107 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:41.480 Robbie mentioned, I'm also fascinated by the history of modern 108 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:44.399 American magic and sort of its nexus points. And I 109 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:47.399 think Gilbert's in LA was one of those places. And 110 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:49.800 it's a place that you touched on in the in 111 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:52.279 the aforementioned interview, And I'm just wondering if you could 112 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:55.279 explain to people who are maybe unfamiliar with that history 113 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:58.720 and like how important those kinds of places were in 114 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:00.720 the Los Angeles scene. 115 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:02.560 I think I would be interested to hear, and I 116 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:05.920 think everyone else would also. Well. Gilberts was a great 117 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:11.959 old bookshop on Holleyoo Boulevard east of Vine And I 118 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:15.279 first found out about it probably the summer of nineteen 119 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:17.879 seventy seven or something like that, or late summer or 120 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:21.720 early fall. I had moved out to LA with my 121 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:24.399 girlfriend at the time, Lisa Jane Persky, who was an 122 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.800 actress and photographer and writer. She was on the scene 123 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:32.000 as well, and by this point had become quite interested 124 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:35.319 in Crowley and Gilberts was one of these great places. 125 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:40.839 It wasn't completely or solely a cult bookshop, but it 126 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:45.120 had a very hefty collection and people like Kenneth Anger, 127 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:49.279 you know, the avant garde Curley filmmaker, and he used 128 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:53.079 to go there, and David Bowie went there, and Jimmy Page, 129 00:06:53.079 --> 00:06:55.399 and I don't know if it's that bookshop. There was 130 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:58.000 another one I think was called Cherokee on Hollywood Boulevard 131 00:06:58.040 --> 00:06:59.839 that the guy who ran it have a story of 132 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:02.000 and the anger, you know, stiffing him on a check 133 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:05.959 or something like that for some you know, rare addition 134 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:08.680 of some Croley item. But it was at that time 135 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:11.920 in when I lived there then, so it would have 136 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:15.040 been seventy seven to about eighty, and I was going 137 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:18.279 back and forth between LA and New York. It's my 138 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:21.439 own band, the No And yeah, there was just so 139 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.399 many good bookshops there and Gilberts was one of them. 140 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:26.040 And in my own experience, I used to go there 141 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:29.079 quite a bit and one time and I this is 142 00:07:29.079 --> 00:07:31.680 how I got involved with this Crole group. Back then, 143 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:36.560 it was the OTO, I mean, but they book This 144 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:39.839 is well before the Internet, well before anything that we 145 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:42.519 take for granted these days. But they had a physical 146 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:46.079 bulletin board and there were people putting notices up on 147 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:49.759 and I saw a notice for a Croley group something 148 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:51.759 like that. So I thought, okay, well, I've been reading 149 00:07:51.759 --> 00:07:53.519 about this stuff for the past couple of years. I 150 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:56.199 first got interested in nineteen seventy five in New York, 151 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:59.560 living on the Bowery with Christein and Debbie Harry. I 152 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.920 mentioned this crazy gay biker artist who was totally into 153 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:06.360 Crowley but also into the Hill's Angels and all of 154 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:08.279 that sort of thing. And he used to do these 155 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:13.040 impromptu tarot readings with the Crawley staff Taro deck, and 156 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:16.439 he did these paintings based on the figures I modeled 157 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:18.199 for one of them. I don't know whatever happened to it. 158 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:22.639 And that's how I got interested and all this sort 159 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:23.959 of stuff. So I had been reading about it for 160 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:25.680 a couple of years and I thought, Okay, let's see 161 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.920 what happens. So I just answered them, and a couple 162 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:31.399 of days later, there's a knock at my door and 163 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:34.399 this very unprepossessing guy is standing out there and he's 164 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:38.360 asking me if I'm ready to devote myself to achieving 165 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:41.360 the knowledge and conversation of my holy Guardian Angel. And 166 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:43.080 I had to think about that for a second, you know, 167 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:48.159 because I was like standing outside Jehovah's witches. Well, this 168 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:50.159 is exactly how I refer to it in the book. 169 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:52.519 It says if somebody at Jehovah's witness said, are you ready? 170 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:55.080 And I always wonder why do they want people to join? 171 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:57.320 Because there's there's a certain number of them. I forget 172 00:08:57.320 --> 00:08:59.600 how many it is, there's an exact number it's going 173 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:02.200 to be saying, so if you keep people joined, I know, 174 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.080 people die, Okay, fine, but somebody's got to get pushed 175 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:07.279 off the bench, right if they keep they keep kind 176 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:09.759 of joining new people somebody, what do you keep? You know? 177 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:12.000 So I know, I never knew why they kept. 178 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:13.919 You know, we have two hundred thousand members that aren't 179 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:15.480 being saved. What do we do? Oh? 180 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:17.600 There there there you go. Well, I guess any case, 181 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:19.639 So I thought, okay, let me think about this, and 182 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.120 I said, well, you know, never the armchair magician. Okay, 183 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:25.919 let's go for it. So I I said, sure, why not? 184 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:29.360 And then I signed. I still have the document somewhere 185 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:32.720 among my files. And I took a magical name, which 186 00:09:32.759 --> 00:09:36.399 is Amorphati and a more Fati is Latin for love 187 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:38.879 of fate. And that was actually the title of one 188 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:40.240 of the songs I did in my band, the No 189 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:42.519 and the band was called the No ken O W 190 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:46.919 because my interest in narcissism and nosis and that kind 191 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:49.159 of a you know, a cult knowledge or you know, 192 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:53.679 immediate kind of direct knowledge, not not episteme, not not 193 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:57.440 knowledge through the left brain as it were. And you know, 194 00:09:57.559 --> 00:10:01.120 so I just went for it and h got the robe, 195 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:05.840 started doing practicing different you know I had already read 196 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:08.600 magic and Theory and Practice on the Bowery amazing, and 197 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:11.559 a bunch of other crowly stuff I'm rambling on. That's 198 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:12.519 just somebody should answer. 199 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:15.799 All right, well, since you brought up I guess like 200 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:17.799 the robe and stuff. I mean I would assume, like, 201 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:20.919 what was your all right when I used to practice 202 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.519 my every day like I guess magical regimen, you know, 203 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:26.559 I would get up and meditate, maybe sometimes do the 204 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:28.679 l B r P, maybe even do the lesser banishing 205 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:30.200 ritual of the Hextagram if I felt like it, and 206 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:32.360 stuff like was that part of your like daily. 207 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:35.320 Normal banishing virtually? I mean, no one thing drove but 208 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:40.000 my girl from Lisa's crazy because you know, the adorations 209 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:40.919 during the day. 210 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.960 So the dawn oh rash, yeah, yeah, rash. 211 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:46.639 Sunset at midnight, so all that stuff. It was like 212 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.480 the I think the noon was the difficult one because 213 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:52.159 we'd be out having breakfast. Oh okay, I'll breck back. 214 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.080 Yeah, I gotta go pray to I got to do this. 215 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:58.039 And she's looking at me Jesus Christ. But okay, but 216 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.639 you know that was that was tough. And the civet, 217 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.320 you know, the Albert maline oil. At least that's what 218 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:03.799 they told me. 219 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:04.080 It was. 220 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:06.480 It was this civot was and it was like it burned, 221 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:08.399 you know, you put it on. But all that kind 222 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:11.919 of stuff. And that's you know that I had had 223 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:15.159 the you know, the robe da Matria I picked, which 224 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:21.080 you know, uh, divindatory practice I wanted to and that 225 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:24.879 was in keeping with my Capricorn sign of the Earth, 226 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:29.679 and apparently Curly at one point preferred it and all 227 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:32.279 that kind of stuff, and yeah, I did you know, 228 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:36.840 the you know, the various different at the various. 229 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:40.000 If you want to use them, all that kind of stuff. 230 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:41.360 So I was, I was doing that and then it 231 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:45.159 was kind of like weekly meetings. But the the thing 232 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:47.559 that one thing that side, well two things put me off. 233 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:49.360 And one of the guy that I got involved with it, 234 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:52.279 he turned out to be a little you know, Curly himself, 235 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:55.960 and he was, you know, kind of a nasty character. 236 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:01.279 And I in an earlier memoir, New York Rocker, which 237 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.679 I wrote about little more than twenty a bit more 238 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:05.840 than twenty years ago, which is that's all the rock 239 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:08.039 and roll stuff. This new one coming out in no 240 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:11.360 memorical touch by the presence, and the title is a 241 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:14.519 reference to a blondie soul and called called them always 242 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:17.120 Touched by Your Presence Dear, which was a big hit 243 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:19.720 in the UK and Europe, not in the States, but 244 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.840 top ten UK Europe. It's in nineteen seventy eight, Long 245 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:27.639 time ago, kids, but it's a song about the telepathic 246 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:32.279 experiences and shared dream experiences Lisa and I were having 247 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:35.039 at the time. So that was my first foray into 248 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.480 any of this sort of stuff because I was living 249 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:40.840 on the Bowery with Christen Derby, reading Proley, hanging out 250 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:45.240 with this guy Benton, who's a remarkable character, and talking 251 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:47.399 about magic and all this kind of stuff, and then 252 00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:50.159 I started having we started having these experiences and so 253 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:51.799 on and so and so I wrote that song. So 254 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:54.200 that's the reference to that. That's where the title of 255 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:56.840 the book comes from. But in this earlier memoir, New 256 00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:59.919 York Rocker, it's all just the rock and roll stuff, 257 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:05.039 and I go into detail about this character in La 258 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:06.519 but he you know, he just turned out to be 259 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:11.360 a little bad. That was the bad kind to do 260 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:14.840 what you liked kind rather than to do without wilt kind, 261 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:17.840 if you know what I mean. In any case, but 262 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:20.320 I mean that was how so I just did that, 263 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.200 and I got into it and all that kind of 264 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.480 thing in practice. But after a while it became clear 265 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:27.480 that this guy was kind of a free loader. And 266 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:31.120 then after a while I just got Crowley. Is all 267 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.200 roads lead to Crowley? I mean, so I just started 268 00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:35.960 to feel sort of claustrophobic about it because it seemed 269 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:38.600 to be you know, and I became more I said, 270 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:40.759 I started out interested in nineteen. By the time I'm 271 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:43.960 in la I'm about twenty two. The book that really 272 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.600 got me into what I'm doing now is a book 273 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.679 by the British writer Colin Wilson, and it's just called 274 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:52.279 The Occult, and it came out in seventy one. I 275 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:56.200 read it in seventy five. I borrowed Tommy Ramone's copy 276 00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:59.960 The Drummer and then manager of the Ramones his cop 277 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:04.440 I borrowed it. I mentioned that and the book I 278 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.279 wrote about Crowley, and I say in that book that 279 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:09.799 other Ramones, he's original Ramones. He was the only one 280 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:12.000 who's still a lot And sadly he passed away after 281 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:13.879 the after the book came out, it would have been 282 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.639 about twenty fifteen, about ten years ago. But yeah, in 283 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:20.399 that book, I go into like all the But that 284 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:22.279 was the thing with Croley. I just got kind of 285 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:24.919 the old roads led to him, and I became more 286 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:28.960 interested in basically consciousness, you know, And I was more 287 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:32.080 interested in the effects. I never got into wanting to 288 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:36.519 contact you know, some you know, interdimensional being and talk 289 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:38.440 to them, And I thought, why would they know anything 290 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:40.639 more than I do? No, I just wondered, why would 291 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.759 they know anything more than I? For their perspective, I'm 292 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:47.080 an interdimensional being, I'm from some other play as well, 293 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.000 maybe I know things la. So I was more interested 294 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:52.320 in finding out about consciousness. And this is this is 295 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.320 from reading Colin Wilson because at the time and I 296 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:57.559 first read him, I didn't know that he had a 297 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:01.519 previous career writing about existentialism, phenomenology and all this sort 298 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.080 of thing. So we had this whole approach to the 299 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:08.080 It wasn't the magic, let's wear the capes and do 300 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:10.080 all the weird stuff, like, well, what's actually going on 301 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:12.960 in consciousness? What are the potentials of consciousness? What does 302 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:15.600 this tell us about that? And it was through reading 303 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:17.799 that book that that took me on the beginning of 304 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:20.320 that so it broke, you know, drifted away from Crowley 305 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:23.120 because it just became kind of I just outgrew it 306 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:25.120 and then I got interested in other things. 307 00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:28.519 Nice. Uh, something I did want to ask you. 308 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:31.799 I hate to go back while It's just I don't 309 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:33.840 have people on the show too often that actually admit 310 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:36.120 to like being a thom might of practicing that stuff. 311 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:37.480 So I just want to like nerd out a little 312 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:40.000 bit and ask you some more stuff about that. You know, 313 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:42.399 most people have on our and have. 314 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:45.879 To remember this is nineteen seventy eight, so it's a 315 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:46.480 while ago. 316 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:50.120 No, you had mentioned something about a areta were you 317 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:52.480 were you getting out instead of saying arita, you can 318 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:54.200 actually say the letters like each. 319 00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.000 Well, I mean the reason that that just popped into my. 320 00:15:57.960 --> 00:15:59.879 Head, okay, right, because there was a different way. 321 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:03.120 I mean, I did all the visualization sort of thing, 322 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:05.399 and you know, we see the pentagram and all of 323 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:08.159 that and when you you know, you know, and in 324 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:12.279 the center stands the sixth rade star. I mean, I 325 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:14.919 did all that sort of thing. But the one thing 326 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:18.200 I should mention about getting involved with the OTO at 327 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.919 that time. So I think Grady McMurtry initiated me. So 328 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.200 I think he was at this initiation because he would 329 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:28.519 have still been around it was I don't know for sure, 330 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.639 and I'm never been in touch with anybody ever again, 331 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:35.559 and I don't want to be. But I wondered because 332 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:37.879 he this was seventy eight, he was still around. He 333 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:41.720 had started it up again in the seventies. And what 334 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:43.879 I remember it and I write about it in the book, 335 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:46.919 is it took place. It's been in Orange County, somewhere 336 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.799 outside of LA That's what I remember. And it must 337 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:51.960 have been near I don't know. It must have been 338 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:54.639 near a marino some kind. And it was around Christmas 339 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:58.279 time because I remember boats going by. I could see 340 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:01.519 out the window, boats going by, you know, little you know, uh, 341 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:05.519 with lights on them saying for last Navi DoD. So 342 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:09.279 I'm I have this memory of that happening, and I'm 343 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:15.119 in this kind of tent where this probablistic ritual Crowley 344 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:19.759 cablistic ritual. I forget exactly. There was a kind of 345 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:21.759 tent that was put they had put up in the 346 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.839 living room, so it looked like you know, Midnight on 347 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:28.200 the Oasis or something like that. Oh, and and you're 348 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:31.960 you're that's what I mean. I kind of like not 349 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:34.839 not not like you know, a tent growing camping. 350 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:37.720 No, no, no, The reason why, the reason why I'm saying. 351 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:40.240 More something oriental or out in the desert kind of 352 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:42.480 kind of thing. And this was like a sacred space. 353 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:44.759 I guess where the initiation took place. 354 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:46.000 Reason I'm saying. 355 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:48.039 I was asked a few questions and it was I 356 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:50.359 was actually, now what I think about. It reminded me 357 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:52.279 when I grew up Catholic. It reminded me of like 358 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:55.279 making my confirmation, because I remember, like the bishop asked 359 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.039 me a question, Oh I had the answers to and 360 00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:00.599 so at this thing, they asked me some questions about 361 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:04.400 cobble lot and I'm a diligent study and I you know, 362 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:07.519 and somebody said, oh, he knows his stuff or something 363 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:12.240 like that. So I thought, oh, gee, any case. And 364 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:16.079 then the other thing I remember is that a kitten 365 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.200 died that night and somehow and someone had said, ah, 366 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:25.079 you know, one life ends as a another begins or 367 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:29.240 something like that. That I mean that that that that 368 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:31.319 that happened, and then I was in it and then 369 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:35.480 sorted of doing the thing. And the other thing I 370 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:40.759 remember is attending a Gnostic mass and uh in ingesting 371 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:43.119 a communion wafer that had been spiked with menstrual blood. 372 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:47.880 Oh yeah, well all the my uh Lisa asked me 373 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:53.640 whose blood it was, and I said I did. But 374 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:55.799 you know, I mean, I'm I'm making light of it now, 375 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:59.039 and I don't mean in any way to detegrate or 376 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.960 you know, suspersions on or diminished you know, people that 377 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:05.880 are into this and do this and all that kind 378 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:07.759 of stuff. But I I I have a kind of 379 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:11.400 you know, fond but sort of Okay, I did that 380 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:15.240 and time to move on, you know, memory of it. 381 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:18.039 I know, I was just h yeah, I was just 382 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:21.160 wondering about somebody. Did you some of your experience. Did 383 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.039 you ever get into like the star Ruby at all? 384 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:24.240 Was that like a ritual? 385 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.480 That? This is ages Ago? I mean I I what 386 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:32.480 I mostly did was read the books. I practice some 387 00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:37.960 rituals on my own. I remember fasting for a few 388 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:42.759 days and strange life like that. But I specific kinds 389 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:47.599 of things I can't say, you know right now remembering that. Yeah, 390 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:49.200 I mean again it's ages Ago. 391 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:51.759 I thought it was interesting you said the tent and 392 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:55.240 what I was trying to get at in av there's 393 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:57.039 a tent in the room anyway, so I'm wondering if 394 00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.519 that's what you were talking about. There's a big tent 395 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:00.799 in where you're taking the initiat, so I think maybe 396 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:01.880 that's a tent you were talking about. 397 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:04.000 So it's something something that I'm saying. 398 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.359 Yeah, it looks yeah, it's not like what you're saying now. 399 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:13.039 I mean it came back to me I was writing 400 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:15.599 about it. So, but I do. The thing that I 401 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:17.880 think is funny is the felice I be Dodd going by, 402 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.079 you know, I just remember, like that's a strong memory, 403 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:25.799 Like I'm being initiated into this weird magical cult claims 404 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.000 to go back to the you know, the Templars, but 405 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:29.279 you know who doesn't you know. 406 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:32.759 That the Rosa Cristians is always a good one to claim. 407 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:33.519 And there you go. 408 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:36.720 All right, does anybody else have questions? 409 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:39.920 Yeah, I was going to bring it. I've been into 410 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:43.359 I was just talking with Nick about in regard to 411 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:46.960 working to remember my dreams, and I have a dream journal, 412 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:51.240 and you're talking about the shared dreams now I've had 413 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:54.440 with my brother. We had some shared dreams at one 414 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:56.880 point in my youth. And then I've also had cases 415 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:01.279 where I've had like etheric entities coming and have teachings 416 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:05.559 for me while I'm sleeping. Have you like I'm interested 417 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.920 more in these these shared dreams that you're speaking of. 418 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:11.319 If you're willing to open up about that. 419 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:13.759 Well, I mean no, I wrote a song about it. 420 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:17.000 It was a big hit and it paid my rent 421 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:20.960 for quite a few years. But no, again, I don't 422 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:24.200 remember exactly again that this this was. Let's see, I 423 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:28.839 would have written the song in nineteen seventy seven and 424 00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:34.119 it was premiered in the UK tour because what had 425 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:40.119 happened is the first Blondie North American tour. We would 426 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:44.920 support act for Iggy Pop, and David Bowie was his 427 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:50.039 keyboard player, but incognito. He wasn't announced, And this was 428 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:52.559 well before well my phone was the internet, so it 429 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.119 was actually, wow, man, did you hear the actual old 430 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:59.359 fashion grapevine whatever? Nice? Yeah, yeah, it's Bowie. It's Bowie, man, 431 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:03.079 it's Boie. Okay and okay. So and on this tour, 432 00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:07.680 whenever I wanted to call Lisa, she wanted to call me. 433 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:12.519 We were at the phone. Each of us are at 434 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:15.559 the phone, right, So had I called her and she 435 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:17.839 picked it up, it would have been busy, yeah, because 436 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:19.880 she was trying to call me, so that that happened. 437 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:23.359 And again this is long before, so you had to 438 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:27.359 be back before we were constrained by time and space. 439 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:30.279 You had to be at a certain place at a 440 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:32.839 certain time in order to do that. This is one 441 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:34.640 of the things that we take for granted. But to me, 442 00:22:34.759 --> 00:22:37.079 this says something about our reality now we're not so 443 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.519 constrained by time and space anymore. And just parenthetically, this 444 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:44.119 was something that the Swiss German philosopher Jehan Gebster said 445 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:49.759 was indicative of our time now, that our relationship with 446 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:53.400 time would be radically different. And it is not in 447 00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:58.720 some weird, you know, Terrence McKenna's singularity kind of way, 448 00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:01.640 but in ordinary, stupid, boring ways, but in the sense 449 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:05.440 like my kids, what you had to be weird what 450 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:08.880 to get it and to watch something on television, So 451 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:13.400 any case, parathetically, so nineteen seventy seven, I'm in Chicago, 452 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:18.359 leases in wherever or someplace, and we were calling each 453 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:20.359 other at the same time and then talking to each 454 00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:24.119 other where we realized we have similar dreams. So that's 455 00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:26.720 I mean, it's vague like that. I don't remember the 456 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.559 exact dreams, but that was like the beginning. And then 457 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:34.599 subsequent to that, I read a book called An Experiment 458 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:38.240 with Time by a fellow co J. W. Dunn, who 459 00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:40.759 was an aeronautics engineer, and he was written in the 460 00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:44.480 nineteen twenties and he had discovered just by accident that 461 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:47.599 he had dreamt bits and pieces of his own future 462 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:52.359 ahead of time. And I read this is again. But 463 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:56.200 I was in New York musician and I was indiscriminately 464 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.759 reading all this stuff about the paranormal and magic and 465 00:23:58.799 --> 00:24:01.920 everything like that, and so I thought, Okay, I'll just 466 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:03.759 start writing down my dream. So I did, and then 467 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:06.759 boom it happened, right, And I've written a book about it. 468 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:08.799 I wrote a book about this during the first COVID 469 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.599 nineteen lockdown here in London in twenty twenty. It's called 470 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:17.440 dreaming ahead of Time Experiences with precognitive dreams, Synchronicities and coincidence. 471 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.680 And I just have been recording precognitive dreams since then, 472 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:28.799 so forty plus years years. Wow. Yeah, And so it's 473 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:31.559 like that and then very very powerful, kind of vivid, 474 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:35.119 lucid dreams and things. But I haven't had any entities 475 00:24:35.240 --> 00:24:37.799 kind of thing. The one time I felt that I 476 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:40.119 had some kind of thing like that was I was 477 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:43.440 actually during a fever, and I remember feeling something was 478 00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:46.880 on my back and I had been reading about you know, 479 00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:51.480 the incubus or yeah, and I kind of said, look, 480 00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:53.559 you know, I'm interested in all this stuff, but my 481 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:58.599 life's complicated already. I I don't really need this, and 482 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.720 please can you guys go please go away? And it 483 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:04.480 kind of did. So I was in a fever. I 484 00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:06.480 don't know, it could have been a weird, but I 485 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:09.279 In that book, I also talk about hypnagogia, which is 486 00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:12.319 you know, very strange in between state, the limital state, 487 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:17.319 and also sleep paralysis, which not so much in recent years, 488 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:18.799 but I used to be quite prone to that, and 489 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:23.960 that that's related to you know, abduction experiences and things 490 00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:25.880 of that sort. So I'm not I'm not reducing it 491 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:27.359 to that, but I know that's related to and so 492 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:30.240 that's kind of the area BIB. But I I've not 493 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.559 had any kind of powerful dreams where I felt like 494 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:37.599 there's an intelligence there it's more than mine. And that's 495 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:42.160 how I feel about the synchronicities I've had like that. 496 00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:44.559 So I think there's a gradient, you know, there's the 497 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:48.200 intelligence that I come encounter in my dreams, and then 498 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:53.039 the ones that somehow arrange these synchronicities. It's the same, 499 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:56.119 I would say, and the one again we're rambling on. 500 00:25:56.200 --> 00:25:58.519 But the other thing is like, you know the eaching. 501 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:02.200 I've been using the EA ching for since nineteen seventy eight, 502 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:07.119 and if you know number four Mang beautiful folly, that's 503 00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:09.519 the one you get if you ask the same question twice. 504 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.759 So how does a book I bought a secondhand bookshop 505 00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:18.160 in Santum Barbara in nineteen seventy eight, and these Chinese 506 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.759 coins I got in Chinatown in Jula sometime, how does 507 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:26.720 it know? I'm asking the same question twice because it says, 508 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:29.839 you know, the first time you asked the oracle, it's okay, 509 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:33.279 But if you importune a second time, it's basically you know, 510 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:36.119 you got. 511 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:39.400 Some strange time space algorithm that some sort of way 512 00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:42.240 precipitates into this well. And as far as that hit 513 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:46.160 in the gogic state, in between waking and sleeping, I 514 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:49.160 was reading the Spanish monks used to sit with a key, 515 00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:51.599 and as soon as they would drop off, that dropped 516 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:53.519 the key, and that would wait so that they could 517 00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:56.960 have this etheric state where it would be prone to 518 00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:58.200 bring the visions you know. 519 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:02.960 Well also, yeah, I mean there's a story about it 520 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.519 was that Thomas Edison, the scientist or the inventor. He 521 00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:10.880 used to keep bull bearings in his hand and lean 522 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:12.880 back in the chair and he would have a metal 523 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:17.759 kind of plate below. He would drift off and then 524 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:21.440 bang it would wake him up, and then the light 525 00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:24.480 bulb as it were. Yeah, yeah, I mean, oh, there's 526 00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:26.000 a whole you no, I mean that that's no, it's 527 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:28.079 a remarkable I mean, and we go through it every day. 528 00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:30.920 You know, there's a hypnagogic when you go into sleep, 529 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:32.480 and then if you want to split hairs, its hipping 530 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:34.920 the pompic when you're coming back up. And if you 531 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:39.319 want to explore this area, I suggest you concentrate on 532 00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:41.960 waking up a bit earlier in the day rather than 533 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:45.160 trying to catch it as you fall asleep, because if 534 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:48.000 you do that you usually initially just wind up with 535 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:49.839 the bad night's sleep after you you know, you have 536 00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:51.480 to you have to work a lot to master it. 537 00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:53.039 But if you do the other one in the morning, 538 00:27:53.079 --> 00:27:54.880 if you can arrange to wake up a little earlier 539 00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:58.240 and then drift back. That's how those that's when I 540 00:27:58.599 --> 00:28:03.119 most I have the most sort of vivid and dreams 541 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:04.720 that I remember the most is when I do that. 542 00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:06.079 So I generally wake up. 543 00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:10.039 Early then and then something that have a second second 544 00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:13.759 momentary sleep. Yeah, I found that as well. 545 00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:17.559 Yes, yeah, yeah, Carrie. 546 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:20.119 Was this when you were having these dreams with Lisa, 547 00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:20.960 which is weird because my. 548 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:21.680 Name is Lisa. 549 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.359 That were you doing rush at the time? And I'm 550 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:28.839 not trying to promote rush? 551 00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:30.119 Well what? Sorry? 552 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:35.160 Sorry that when you were having these dreams with Lisa, 553 00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:37.880 were you also practicing rush? 554 00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:42.920 Practicing rush or leave rush rush? What? 555 00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:45.319 That was a prayer that you mentioned before you did 556 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:47.839 four times a day? 557 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:50.839 Oh you mean the oh, the adorations kind of thing. 558 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:54.799 I'm sorry, Yes, well I would have uh no, no, 559 00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:57.079 that was earlier. That was early that, I'm sorry, that 560 00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:59.480 was all. I was still living in New York, so 561 00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:02.119 I I I hadn't I hadn't joined, you know, and 562 00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:05.680 doing the thing. We just discovered that this was but 563 00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:08.119 I mean, she she she was interested in this stuff, 564 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.720 and then because I was interested in it, you know, 565 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.440 we were both reading this kind of thing. So and 566 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:17.519 we were young and in love, which is one of 567 00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:20.319 the things that well, being in love. Being young helps too, 568 00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:27.640 I think you get older. I'm sorry, no, no, no, no. Oh. 569 00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:29.799 So the reason I say that is because there is 570 00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:36.799 a lot of hypothesis and theories that watching the sun 571 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:43.240 during the morning, midday, night, and midnight allows for the 572 00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:47.000 ability to download the algorithm from the sun, you know, 573 00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:53.160 with the spectrum charging your pineal priming it as well 574 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:59.160 to not only be aware of I guess, not only 575 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:03.000 your surroundings or whatever, but also tap into that quantum 576 00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:08.680 ability to channel or to be in touch with people 577 00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:13.000 at a distance their feeling or thinking, as well as 578 00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:17.400 having very vivid dreams as well. And so that's why 579 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:22.240 I was asking if that was also going on at 580 00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:24.440 the time. That was not that. 581 00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:29.279 No, no, I didn't know that, so thanks thanks to 582 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:31.680 mentioning it. But no, I mean it was. That was 583 00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:33.839 the kind of thing that led me later on, you know, 584 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.519 to to do it. 585 00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:40.839 Yeah, listen, did you want to ask anything about the 586 00:30:40.839 --> 00:30:41.440 Colin Wilson. 587 00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:47.279 I did. I had read Mind Parasites a while back 588 00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:50.839 and I was given it. I was given that book 589 00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.279 as a recommendation, and it was to me it was 590 00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:57.680 very transformative. I had never read Colin Wilson before I 591 00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:01.440 had never even thought of some of that type of 592 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:07.400 I guess spin On. I mean the way that one, 593 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:09.839 the way he writes was amazing. I had never read 594 00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:14.200 anybody like that. But the main thing was that how 595 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:19.839 he kind of literalized like physical dysfunction as an actual 596 00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:27.359 like well parasite really, but actually like something that you 597 00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:32.640 can treat or something that you can potentially work through 598 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:37.759 and maybe even evolve out of, like through discipline or 599 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:40.359 anything like that, to enhance kind of like consciousness and 600 00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:44.000 stuff like that. And I'm I'm a biologist by trade, 601 00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:46.119 and so I deal with the diseases and everything. So 602 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:48.559 this was like right up my alley. But to actually 603 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:53.480 have that analogy, to speak to it through or at 604 00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:58.880 least give it more of a personification through that way, 605 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:04.160 to me was was mind blowing for sure. And that 606 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:06.920 you have had you spoke about Colin Wilson and how 607 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:11.480 his book kind of was impactful to you, and I 608 00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:13.440 kind of wanted to ask you about that a little bit. 609 00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:18.039 Yeah, I know, mind power sites. That's a one of 610 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.839 the ones I read after I'd read The Occult and 611 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.920 I was living in Los Angeles, and actually an edition 612 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:29.440 of It came out some years back when I wrote 613 00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:34.960 an introduction to it, and it's it's sort of a 614 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:39.480 science fiction Lovecraftian novel, kind of more of a fable. 615 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:41.640 I mean his novels are sort of fables. I mean 616 00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:44.720 he uses he uses he uses a lot of different 617 00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:48.559 genre for his philosophical purposes. So he uses science fiction 618 00:32:48.759 --> 00:32:52.279 or that fantasy or crime novels, things of that sort. 619 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:56.079 And in this one he's trying to well you're saying 620 00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:01.960 he's literalizing or fictionalizing what he wrote about and earlier. 621 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:03.359 I mean, this is this is I think he wrote 622 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:05.599 this in nineteen sixty six, so this is before he 623 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:08.200 was writing about the occult. So this is during his 624 00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:13.519 sort of existential phenomenological period. But his first book, The Outsider, 625 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:17.799 came out in nineteen fifty six, and he was twenty four, 626 00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:20.960 and he had spent like the previous ten years learning 627 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:26.039 how to write and keeping faith in the conviction of 628 00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:28.440 his genius. And then this very first book comes out 629 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:31.759 and he was like he was overnight success. He was 630 00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:33.960 a bestseller and all this kind of stuff. Sadly, the 631 00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:37.000 British turned against him because they don't like people who 632 00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:39.519 are smart. But don't go to university, so it's his 633 00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:43.200 class kind of thing. But his first book, The Outsider, 634 00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:48.920 it's basically about these people who individuals, creative individuals who 635 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:54.119 have a strong appetitor need for meaning and purpose and 636 00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:59.319 in the increasingly secular, comfort oriented I mean again, this 637 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:02.519 is nineteen fifty, so it's you know, seventy years ago. 638 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:08.800 Now you can't find it. You can't find so it's 639 00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:11.280 like basically kind of existential religious kind of questions. And 640 00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.320 he was considered like Britain's own homegrown interesstentialist, but he 641 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:17.400 was he he was fascinating like people like say Nietzsche 642 00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:22.960 and van go and Strindberg and all these others who 643 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:27.079 kind of blew up or went insane or died early. 644 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:31.880 And he said they were these people had this kind 645 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:33.800 of appetite for meaning and purpose, and they also had 646 00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:36.840 these visions of kind of you know, transformed of all 647 00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:39.840 his good you know, absolutely redemptive vision of meaning and 648 00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:42.199 purpose in the face of everything and all this kind 649 00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:45.199 of stuff in variety of ways. But why did they 650 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:49.519 wind up either blowing up in some way, cracking smashing, 651 00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:52.599 you know, dying young, or you know, committing suicide of 652 00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:58.519 going insane. So he explores that question through the series 653 00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:01.000 of books that he called The Outside, and he applies 654 00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:03.159 I can't come into it in any depth, but he 655 00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:06.280 applies essential analysis to and but they're all page turners. 656 00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:08.639 I mean, it's existential. It's not. Sorry, who's like really 657 00:35:08.679 --> 00:35:11.199 tough to get through. It's like thick, you know, turgid stuff. 658 00:35:11.239 --> 00:35:14.199 But no, Wilson's Wilson's a writer. So it's it goes. 659 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:22.519 But in in the novel The Mind Parasites he he he, 660 00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:26.360 he invents this notion of a kind of parasite that's 661 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:29.280 actually it's not it's not it's not a micro parasite 662 00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:31.639 that gets into the body. It's actually in the psyche. 663 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:35.320 It's we. We we exist in the physical realm, right, 664 00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:37.840 and we tend to think there's a little blob of 665 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:40.320 consciousness in our heads, but actually that little blob is 666 00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:45.119 connected to a larger, objective psychic realm that's within us, 667 00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:48.039 and we're all a variety of different ways everything trying 668 00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:53.119 to explore that. Uh. And what he says is that, oh, 669 00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:57.039 for centuries, there's been a kind of mental parasite in 670 00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:02.280 the psychic realms, living, sucking life energy off from human beings. 671 00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:06.320 And then sometime in the nineteenth century, these these Titanic figures, 672 00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:09.519 these romantics, and then great, you know, powerful figures like 673 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:13.280 Nietzsche and Strenberg and whatever. So the early ones could 674 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:15.639 overcome them, Beethoven and Gerta. But then they got tougher 675 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:18.280 and tougher, and then he said, the parasites realizing that 676 00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:21.639 humanity is learning its own strength and power, and then 677 00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:24.679 we won't be able to you know, suck a dry anymore. 678 00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:27.000 We have to get rid of these guys. And so 679 00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:31.079 he says, the mind parasites drove them all mad, you know, 680 00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:34.400 drove them crazy because they you know, they were getting 681 00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.960 too close to the secret. And so characters a spoiler 682 00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:41.599 character and actually it takes place well, it was written 683 00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:43.559 in sixty six, I think it takes place in I 684 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.119 don't know, nineteen something or other. So it was the 685 00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:50.159 future when it was written. Now it's the past. But 686 00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:55.000 characters in the book learn about this and learn about 687 00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:58.360 them and learn methods to be able to overcome them. 688 00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:01.400 And there's a fantastic I'm going but there's a I 689 00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:03.960 think one of the most remarkable things Wilson did in 690 00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:08.880 this genre where he's using genre writing for philosophical means. 691 00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:12.280 Is that he has this incredible cosmic battle going on 692 00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:16.440 between this one character who's learned about the parasites and 693 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:22.440 has developed he's learned about phenomenology, which is this philosophical 694 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:26.360 methodology of understanding consciousness. It's tough to pronounce and it's 695 00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:29.920 even tougher to practice, but he's learned how to do this, 696 00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:33.880 and he's able to ward off the parasites, but it's 697 00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:36.639 all going on inside his head. So it's the most 698 00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:40.039 remarkable battle ever taking place. Is some guy's sitting in 699 00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:44.079 a chair and he's sweating because it's all well doing 700 00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:47.000 like that. So it's just incredible, and yeah, if you 701 00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:48.679 ever get a chance, it's really a great it's a 702 00:37:48.679 --> 00:37:52.920 great read. Unfortunately, one of his novels called The Space Vampires, 703 00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:55.679 written in late seventies, was turned into one of the 704 00:37:55.719 --> 00:38:00.559 worst films ever made called Life Force Toby Hooper effect eighties, 705 00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:03.360 and it's I mean, my joke about that film is 706 00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:05.880 that there are there are two good things in that movie, 707 00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:09.519 and the lead actress has both of them. 708 00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:12.760 I actually liked that movie. Sorry again, I do enjoy it. 709 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:15.920 I think it's a great you know, it's it's weird. 710 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:19.000 It's kind of like a o cult sci fi I 711 00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:21.719 think they did with it something. It's weird, and so 712 00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:24.679 it takes someone of a particular you know, it's not 713 00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:27.840 true keno, but perhaps there's something interesting in it. 714 00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:30.840 Yeah. I enjoyed this movie as a youngster as well, 715 00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:32.519 So that's uh. 716 00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:34.880 Well, Will Wilson has an interesting story because I don't know, 717 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.320 if you know the novelist John fowls The Magas and 718 00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:42.920 the bench Liintendant's women, they knew each other. And if 719 00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:45.800 you ever the John Fowl's novel The Magas is one 720 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:49.119 of these high literary works that came out during the 721 00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:52.360 mystic sixties when cultism and magic and all this was 722 00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:54.599 like my first book, turn Off Your Mind is all 723 00:38:54.639 --> 00:38:58.039 about how like the occult and magic saturated not only 724 00:38:58.079 --> 00:38:59.960 popular culture. But it's it's you know, it's fairly hot 725 00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:04.199 high mind at high literary hygrow and it's a very 726 00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:07.519 good novel. But the film is ridiculous with Michael Kaine 727 00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:09.880 and Anthony Lewen, it's like one of the worst films 728 00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:14.920 ever made. And John Fowl sent you know, Colin Wilson 729 00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:18.000 of Postcard saying, you know, if you ever think of 730 00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:19.800 seeing my film The makea Stone. It's one of the 731 00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:21.480 worst things ever made in that kind of thing. And 732 00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:24.000 then when Life Worst came out, Wilson wrote him back 733 00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:25.840 and said, you know, John, I've done you one better. 734 00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:30.119 But yeah, I mean again, I'm you know, it's a 735 00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:33.599 different kind of thing. It's a different I tell you 736 00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:35.679 one book I think should have been made of Wilson's 737 00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:38.039 is his first novel. It's called Ritual in the Dark 738 00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:43.239 and it came out in nineteen sixty and it's best 739 00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:48.519 characterized as Jack the Ripper meets the brothers Karamtsov in 740 00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:54.679 Duffel coded post war nineteen fifties London, and it's an 741 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:59.840 early serial killer novel with existential intent. And I think 742 00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.440 that would make a great film, but I don't know. 743 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:03.400 No one's approached it. 744 00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:07.840 So I guess I just drew parallels with my parasites 745 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:13.039 and the blip on your new book. That is this 746 00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:18.599 lifelong pursuit of learning about consciousness and kind of trying 747 00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:22.679 to rise above. So that's kind of why I brought in. 748 00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:26.800 No No Do Please. Yeah, I know, he's he's been 749 00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:29.119 the most I said, it's it's a cliche, but actually 750 00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:31.159 reading that book if has changed my life. And then 751 00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:33.079 I went on the pilgrimage and met him. That's I 752 00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:35.079 talked about that in the book two in nineteen eighty three. 753 00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:42.880 He's very well. He was very very warm, very very generous, 754 00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:48.480 very busy. I mean, I let me say eighty three. 755 00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:50.840 I was all of twenty seven, and I went on 756 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:54.440 at the time what I subsequently called the mini Search 757 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:57.480 of the Miraculous. And if you know the book In 758 00:40:57.480 --> 00:40:59.679 Search of the Miraculous, this is a book by Russian 759 00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:03.079 writer philosophy P. D Uspensky, and it was about his 760 00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:09.000 time under the tutelage of the enigmatic Armenian Greco esoteric 761 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:12.559 teacher gi Gord Jeff. And after my time with the 762 00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:16.039 Crowley group, the next kind of group I got involved 763 00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:18.760 it was this Fourth Way Crowley excuse me for there 764 00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:22.199 I was a YOUNGI and Croley thelemic slip Fourth Way 765 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:29.760 Gergy group. And part of this mini search to the 766 00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:35.719 miraculous I was I visited the chateau outside of Paris 767 00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:40.599 and Fontainebleau where Gerjev had his briefly had his Harmonious 768 00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:45.000 Institute for Thermonious Development of Man. But on one leg of 769 00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:48.000 this I was at I was into lay lines and 770 00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:49.599 things like that, so I was going to lots of 771 00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:52.880 like megalithic sites and I had the Ordinance Survey map 772 00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:54.920 and trying to find ley lines. But one of the 773 00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:56.960 things I did was making pilgrimage down to Cornwall, this 774 00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:02.159 tiny place called goren Haven, Wilson escaped to in the 775 00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:06.599 late fifties to escape the notoriety that he had as 776 00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:10.440 an angry man in fifties. And yeah, I mean I 777 00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:12.519 only spent one night there, but we got through a 778 00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:16.400 couple of bottles and he explained to me his ideas 779 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:19.480 about philminology and consciousness, and I got it that night. 780 00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:21.239 It was a little difficult to dredge it up the 781 00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:25.119 next morning, but right then I think I nailed it. No, 782 00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:28.159 he's very warm, and I mean a story about him 783 00:42:28.280 --> 00:42:32.320 is like estimates on the number of books that he had. 784 00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:35.360 It's somewhere between sixty and one hundred thousand. I mean, 785 00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:39.000 he just had enormous amount of books. And I after 786 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:43.639 that visit, well, you know, lots of people visited him. 787 00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:46.360 So I say I became friends, but it wasn't particularly close, 788 00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:49.320 but I was someone who you know, they knew, and 789 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:51.320 the family got to know me, and I got to 790 00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:53.400 know them and all that. I kept visiting him, and 791 00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:57.880 he died in twenty thirteen, and I subsequently wrote a 792 00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.119 book about him called On the Robot, The Life and 793 00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:06.199 Work of Colin Wilson. So yeah, he was enormous, enormous, influential. 794 00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:08.840 But I tell the story of the pilgrimage to his 795 00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:12.719 place in the book and all that. And one thing 796 00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:16.880 I do regret is in the late eighties, I worked 797 00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:21.559 at a at the time famous metaphysical bookshop in Los 798 00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:25.480 Angeles called the Bodi Tree, which doesn't exist anymore, but 799 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:27.960 Shirley maclain, the actual Shirley McClain, put it on the 800 00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:31.119 map in the eighties because she had discovered her past 801 00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:33.039 life and aura and all that kind of stuff there. 802 00:43:33.559 --> 00:43:38.880 And Wilson was in town giving a lecture in Los Angeles, 803 00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:41.159 and he was staying at a travel launch or something, 804 00:43:41.199 --> 00:43:43.679 and I was house sitting for one of the owners 805 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:46.199 of the Bodie Tree, and they had and they were Buddhists. 806 00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:50.920 They started out in aeronautics at Lockheed in the early 807 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:53.320 seventies and they decided they wanted to do something meaningful 808 00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:57.400 in their lives that they opened up this this metaphysical bookshop, 809 00:43:58.119 --> 00:43:59.960 and it was it was a success. So this was 810 00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:02.119 been about I don't know eighty eight or something like that, 811 00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:06.159 maybe eighty nine. Wilson was in London, excuse me, I'm 812 00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:09.840 mixing it up in la giving a lecture, and I 813 00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:12.199 was house sitting for one of the owners. And they 814 00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:15.239 have this fantastic place in the Hollywood Hills and Laurel Canyon. 815 00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:18.320 I called it a zen castle. So I said, why 816 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:20.440 don't you come and stay? So he and his wife 817 00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:23.480 Joy stayed with us. And one of the things I 818 00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:28.159 regret is that we got so slashed one night that 819 00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:31.280 the next day he was having lunch with Robert Anton 820 00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:35.159 Wilson and he invited me along, but I was so 821 00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:43.280 hungover I couldn't go. So I absolutely regret that. So, yeah, 822 00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:44.159 this is amazing. 823 00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:45.800 You actually met the people we. 824 00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:48.400 Talked about some of them. 825 00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:53.039 Yeah, And it almost seems like with some of the 826 00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:56.199 biographies that she's the list of biographies that you've written 827 00:44:56.239 --> 00:45:00.440 about the same there's like this theme, and please correct 828 00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:04.440 me if I'm wrong, like this biological resonance of sorts 829 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:09.960 in that like a thread that runs throughout all of 830 00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:13.559 the people that you speak of or the people that 831 00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.400 you wrote about, and then as well as some of 832 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:21.880 the interviews that I've listened to of you. Is that 833 00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:26.480 something that that you were I guess like a topic 834 00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:28.400 that you are interested. 835 00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:31.199 In or I'm not quite sure what you mean exactly. 836 00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:37.480 Almost like there's this kind of connection to like in 837 00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:42.239 like the the intellect itself to a metaphysical and it's 838 00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:46.719 like this thread that that runs between everybody. That's almost 839 00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:55.079 like this pursuit of transient trus transients that that it's 840 00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:59.480 this pursuit of higher, higher intellectualism mixed in with a 841 00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:04.119 metaphysic cool, but also kind of developing a personal relationship 842 00:46:04.280 --> 00:46:04.760 with it. 843 00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:08.480 Oh yeah, I mean, I'm I'm I'm I mean, I'm 844 00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:11.519 interested in all these things, not well, you know, I'm 845 00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:14.199 interested in them because they're fascinating, and I'm also interested because, well, 846 00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:15.639 what can I get out of it? You know, I 847 00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:17.760 mean for myself my own development. That's what I mean. 848 00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:18.559 With Wilson, I. 849 00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:18.960 Just was. 850 00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:24.599 His idea struck me as the ones I could apply 851 00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:29.159 myself to most profitably over time, and then it was 852 00:46:29.199 --> 00:46:32.000 through reading his books. I mean, one of the theme 853 00:46:32.119 --> 00:46:35.039 in Touched by the Presence is that I mean one 854 00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.320 of the things. Okay, I used to be. It starts 855 00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:40.039 out I'm often asked how I went from being a 856 00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:43.440 rock star to writing the sort of books I do. Well, 857 00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:46.320 let me tell you, And so there it is. It 858 00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:48.320 starts when I'm five years old learning how to read 859 00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:51.800 comic books. We're learning to read through comic books. And 860 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:53.599 then it ends when I'm getting on the plane at 861 00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:57.400 Lax to come here, and in between I'm reading Her 862 00:46:57.480 --> 00:46:59.480 and Hesse and I'm doing this and I'm going there, 863 00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.239 and I'm I have an academic career during the early 864 00:47:02.360 --> 00:47:06.199 PC days and I didn't want to deconstruct anything, and 865 00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:10.519 so it's all. And then ten years after playing in 866 00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:13.880 Blondie and my own band and iggy Pop and you know, 867 00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:17.000 getting this a story where I'm kicked out of David 868 00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:22.039 Bowie's loft in Manhattan sometime nineteen eighty because he tells 869 00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:26.599 this ridiculous story. Excuse me, yes, yes, he told this 870 00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:31.880 ridiculous story catch my drift about Colin Wilson heading a 871 00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:37.159 coven in Cornwall, and I in all innocence and just 872 00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:39.920 sitting there and a friend of mine says, oh yeah, Gary, 873 00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:43.159 he reads Colin Wilson, what do you think, I said, well, actually, 874 00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:44.960 as far as I know, that's not the case. Oh yes, 875 00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.920 he does. And he goes on and on about this 876 00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:50.639 and I'm not realizing that I'm causing a scene, and 877 00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:56.400 you know, you know, you know, and I'm giving this 878 00:47:56.440 --> 00:48:00.440 is the stuff that people should wait if you want 879 00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:02.119 to know what happens next. Folks know, but I'll tell 880 00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:06.559 you what happens next. What happens next is, uh, Bowie 881 00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:11.159 has these two female bodyguards, and I think it's the 882 00:48:11.239 --> 00:48:13.639 last and if it's never Diamonds Off, I think it's 883 00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:18.760 time forever. I think the penultimate Sean Connery Bond film. 884 00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:23.039 Again I'm dating myself, and like, there are these two 885 00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:27.480 kind of female assassins named Thumper and Bambi. So his 886 00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:31.480 Bowie's bodyguards are like these. And they come up to 887 00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:35.079 me and they say, David's tired. We think it's time 888 00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:39.599 you leave. And I said, okay, sorry to me, but 889 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:42.920 it just he was just And subsequently I realized what 890 00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:46.159 had happened is he he was reading he was read what. 891 00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:48.360 Wilson has a book called Mysteries and it's a follow 892 00:48:48.440 --> 00:48:50.519 up to the Occult and it's it's came out in 893 00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:53.239 the late seventies, but it's still a great read. It's 894 00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:56.199 basically a compendium of all everything that was going on 895 00:48:56.239 --> 00:49:03.800 at the time, but the paranormal everything. But he does 896 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:08.440 tell a story about not him, but someone else in 897 00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:12.239 Cornwall who was telling a story about a witch going 898 00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:15.639 around and like making like which he signs on the 899 00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:21.719 you know, the front doors of people's cottages. But that 900 00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:25.679 was a story that Wilson was telling about somebody else 901 00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:31.599 in this book, but in his exalted state, Major Tom 902 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:36.199 had had had mixed it up, uh and if any case, 903 00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:38.000 So that's you know, that was kind of the thing. 904 00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:40.199 So I had these you know, run ins in that 905 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:42.639 with with that with Wilson. But I know, but I 906 00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:46.760 got to know him, you know, very well, I uh said. 907 00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:48.559 I wrote a book about him. I reviewed many of 908 00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:50.679 his books for when they came out here in London, 909 00:49:52.119 --> 00:49:56.199 visited in Cornwall quite a few times, and know the family. 910 00:49:56.440 --> 00:50:00.519 And just recently this year there was a there's a 911 00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:03.280 columnist and international conference that's been going on in the 912 00:50:03.280 --> 00:50:08.159 past few years and I saw his sons there. So yeah, 913 00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:12.639 we're trying to keep his legacy going. And actually the 914 00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:15.320 book I wrote about him went out of print, but 915 00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:18.880 my current publishers and traditions they're going to reissue it. 916 00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:24.599 Oh So, going back to your book, I know you 917 00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:26.559 kind of left off like a little bit about Gerjeff. 918 00:50:26.599 --> 00:50:27.880 I don't know if you wanted to get into that 919 00:50:28.039 --> 00:50:29.840 or maybe go forward a little bit more, because I 920 00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:31.960 think you also get into like, besides Gurjeff, you also 921 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:34.599 get into like armatic Golden Dawn style stuff as well. 922 00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:37.760 Right, well, I mean that was that was part of 923 00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:44.199 the crowthy thing. Okay Dawn stuff. No, I got involved 924 00:50:44.239 --> 00:50:48.679 in the Fourth Way, the Fourth Way Gurjef Society, which 925 00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:51.079 is the real thing. There were quite quite a few 926 00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:54.679 sort of bogus groups out there, or at least they 927 00:50:54.760 --> 00:50:57.159 used to be so. But this would have been about 928 00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:05.639 nineteen eighty one in New York first off, and I 929 00:51:05.840 --> 00:51:10.119 had been reading about this stuff again, reading Colin Wilson 930 00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:13.400 and other other people about it, and he spoke highly 931 00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:17.519 of it out of all the kind of gurus and 932 00:51:17.559 --> 00:51:19.679 teachings and things of that sort that he had written 933 00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:22.480 about in the Occult and other books. He has a 934 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:25.400 long section on Crowley and Yates and the Golden Dawn 935 00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:29.239 and Leovatsky and you know, it's still if you ever 936 00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:31.280 find it, you know, it's still a great read. It's 937 00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:34.320 just called the Ocult. It's still a great read. But 938 00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:36.760 he had a good section on Gurjev and Uspensky in 939 00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:41.639 the Fourth Way, and I always liked Duspensky's early stuff. 940 00:51:41.639 --> 00:51:45.360 He has a book called Turchier Organum, which means the 941 00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:48.960 Third organ of Thought, and something he wrote in the 942 00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:51.639 early twentieth centuries in Russia, and it was all about 943 00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:56.800 like higher space, higher dimensions, like sort of like chaos theory, 944 00:51:56.920 --> 00:51:59.719 or I guess entanglement now is kind of like the craze, 945 00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:02.280 and so this was like, you know, the time is 946 00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:04.960 the fourth dimension, then five, fifth, sixth, seventh dimension, and 947 00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:08.320 all this kind of stuff and a variety of different 948 00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:11.199 ideas about consciousness and so on. Then another book called 949 00:52:11.199 --> 00:52:13.800 New Model of the Universe, which is a great again 950 00:52:13.880 --> 00:52:17.920 collection of different essays on dreams and hypnotism and at 951 00:52:17.960 --> 00:52:20.559 the superman and the variety of other things. So I 952 00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:24.400 liked reading all that stuff. And then I actually again, 953 00:52:24.920 --> 00:52:28.960 as I had in La I had moved back to 954 00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:32.480 New York at this point, and I had came across 955 00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:35.199 a notice for a lecture about you know, the Courage 956 00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:39.199 of Fourth wait at the Barberzan Hotel. So I thought, okay, 957 00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:43.760 I'll go. And actually the lecture I went to. The 958 00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:46.719 people doing it are one of these bogus groups. But 959 00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:49.119 I and I had mentioned that I had gone to 960 00:52:49.159 --> 00:52:51.679 a friend of mine with whom I had discussed this 961 00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:53.360 sorts of stuff in my interest in you know, a 962 00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:57.280 variety of different spiritual and esoteric ideas. And he said, yes, 963 00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:00.599 well they're not the real thing. If you really interested, 964 00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:03.679 I've been involved, you know, for a while. And oh, 965 00:53:03.880 --> 00:53:05.400 he hadn't mentioned to me, and he was kind of 966 00:53:05.400 --> 00:53:07.199 like he was checking me out, you know kind of thing. 967 00:53:07.239 --> 00:53:10.400 And so then he said, if you're really interested, here 968 00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:14.360 this is a phone number. Call it and I'll I'll 969 00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:18.480 I've mentioned you to my the group leader, and I'll 970 00:53:18.519 --> 00:53:21.320 tell him that I told you, and he expects you 971 00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:25.679 to call. So I did, and this again I had 972 00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:31.800 this is I my own I left Blondie, my own Bami. 973 00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:36.039 We had failed to nail a record deal, and I 974 00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:38.920 was kind of in between in New York and trying 975 00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:40.480 to figure out what to do and all that sort 976 00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:45.039 of stuff. And but I met this fellow and his 977 00:53:45.159 --> 00:53:48.800 name is Paul Raynard, and he was an artist, and 978 00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:53.800 he was also one of the principal instructors of what's 979 00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:57.519 notice the Gerchef movements, which are these very very intricate 980 00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:00.920 and strange and difficult sorts of dances. I don't know 981 00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:04.360 if you've it was a film of Gurdjeff's book Meeting 982 00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:07.920 with Remarkable Men, that came out in the late seventies. 983 00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:10.440 It's done by Peter Brook. If you know Peter Brook, 984 00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:13.280 he did the mahab Haka. There's different versions of that, 985 00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:15.920 like an eight hour version and a sixteen hour version, 986 00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:19.079 so it's very serious filmmaker and he tends to use 987 00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:25.840 non professional actors in it. But in this film Meetings 988 00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:28.000 with the Markable Man, he does use one professional actor, 989 00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:32.079 the late Terrence Stamp who just passed away. But there's 990 00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:37.159 a fantastic scene. If you know the Gurjeff story, like 991 00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:40.400 Madame Vatsky, he went to the east and different you 992 00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:44.280 know lands in search of hidden knowledge. For him, it 993 00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:47.719 was more Central Asia, you know, it wasn't wasn't Indian Tibet. 994 00:54:47.800 --> 00:54:50.719 It was like Central Asia. And among other things, he 995 00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:55.320 tells the story of finding this hidden monastery, the Stomong 996 00:54:55.400 --> 00:54:59.480 Brotherhood and this is where he learns these very intricate 997 00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:01.599 and very very difficult and complex sort of dance. I 998 00:55:01.639 --> 00:55:03.639 mean they're not you say they're dances, but they're they're 999 00:55:03.800 --> 00:55:07.840 much more like kind of weird movements. Again, the thing is, 1000 00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:11.079 if you know the old that sort of thing, rub 1001 00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:14.360 your tommy, impat your head, it's like that to the 1002 00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:19.760 tenth pour something. But in this film there are some 1003 00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:22.480 scenes of these things, so I think they're on YouTube. 1004 00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:25.880 You can find it on YouTube, and they're just remarkable 1005 00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:31.519 to see. And so the fellow I met was one 1006 00:55:31.559 --> 00:55:36.119 of the teachers of these things, and I, you know, 1007 00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:39.559 but this time, I you know, I a song of 1008 00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:41.519 my was a hit song, top ten, I got a 1009 00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:44.960 gold record. I played around. I are you know whatever? 1010 00:55:45.079 --> 00:55:46.519 I told David Bowie you didn't know what he was 1011 00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:49.960 talking about, and you know whatever. But this is the 1012 00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:55.920 first This guy was the most solid present person I'd 1013 00:55:55.960 --> 00:55:58.119 come upon. He was he was just there. He didn't 1014 00:55:58.119 --> 00:55:59.840 have to do anything, He just was sitting there and 1015 00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:01.559 I just felt what And he said, he said the 1016 00:56:01.599 --> 00:56:05.679 simplest thing, why do you want to get involved in this? 1017 00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:09.760 And it was like, ooh, that is a tough one. 1018 00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:13.280 Why do I am. I just curious that I had 1019 00:56:13.320 --> 00:56:15.760 been in this Crowley thing and it was I and 1020 00:56:15.800 --> 00:56:18.679 I fumbled and I just, you know, lamely said I 1021 00:56:18.679 --> 00:56:20.599 want to wake up, and said, well that will take 1022 00:56:20.679 --> 00:56:24.639 some time. Uh, And then you know, here's here's the meeting. 1023 00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:27.519 Go there. And so I started going to these things 1024 00:56:28.119 --> 00:56:32.320 and it was very, very different than the Crowley. 1025 00:56:32.519 --> 00:56:32.719 You know. 1026 00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:36.000 It was saying, sit in these meetings and we've been 1027 00:56:36.199 --> 00:56:42.880 given an exercise, and you'd go and nobody would talk. 1028 00:56:42.920 --> 00:56:46.519 We'd sit in silence sometimes until somebody actually had a 1029 00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:50.079 serious question about something. So it wasn't about and again 1030 00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:51.840 I can't go into any great I mean I talked 1031 00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:53.360 about in the book, but it was sort of like that. 1032 00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:57.480 But on the whole, if you know the gurge of idea, 1033 00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:00.800 it's this notion that we're mechanical or asleep, which doesn't 1034 00:57:00.800 --> 00:57:03.639 sound like much these days because we tend to you know, 1035 00:57:03.679 --> 00:57:06.960 we've heard it all very different New Age kind of ways, 1036 00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:09.280 talking about similar sorts of things, mindfulness and so on 1037 00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:13.400 and so on. But when he first came across to 1038 00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:15.880 the West in the nineteen twenties, and by the way, 1039 00:57:15.880 --> 00:57:19.239 I've written biography of Uspensky and I've also written a 1040 00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:24.519 biography of hill named Morris Nicol, who was of Gusbensky's students, 1041 00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:28.320 who originally started out as Jung's British lieutenant here in 1042 00:57:28.360 --> 00:57:31.000 the nineteen twenties and the New Jump Ship and became 1043 00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:34.000 a follower of grigory from Duspensky. So I've written in 1044 00:57:34.039 --> 00:57:37.519 the background, that's my background in it. But it's this 1045 00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:41.599 whole idea that we're mechanical, you know, we're just stimulus response, 1046 00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:48.159 you know, machines, which pretty much straightforward behaviorism and pretty 1047 00:57:48.199 --> 00:57:52.760 much straightforward you know, clinical psychology that we've been teaching 1048 00:57:52.880 --> 00:57:55.239 in the academies at the time. But he said, there's 1049 00:57:55.239 --> 00:57:57.880 a way not to be a machine, and so we had, 1050 00:57:57.960 --> 00:58:00.400 you know, a whole technique of doing this. And one 1051 00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:04.239 of the things that struck me, and again it's it's 1052 00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:08.119 this about consciousness itself. We hate this notion what they 1053 00:58:08.119 --> 00:58:11.559 call self remembering. And I've actually just been finished and 1054 00:58:11.719 --> 00:58:15.039 just working on a book about the old the whole 1055 00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:18.880 idea that we forget that we exist. We we if he, 1056 00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:21.880 if he, of course I exist, but most of the 1057 00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:24.440 time we actually don't. You know, we know the fact 1058 00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:26.360 that we exist, but we don't know the reality that 1059 00:58:26.400 --> 00:58:29.039 we exist. And this is something you can even find 1060 00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:32.519 in you know, existential philosophy, like and Heidiger talks about 1061 00:58:32.599 --> 00:58:35.880 zion but guess and height, you know, forgetfulness of being, 1062 00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:41.480 and this is something and both Gurjeff and Heideger they 1063 00:58:41.559 --> 00:58:43.880 both hit on this, say like, the one sure fire 1064 00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:47.440 method of reawakening to being would be to have a 1065 00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:50.760 vivid grasp of your own death. You know, So this 1066 00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:53.400 this vivid grass of your own finitude that one day 1067 00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:55.039 you're not going to be here. We all know that, 1068 00:58:55.119 --> 00:59:00.360 we know that factually, but we don't know it experientially then, 1069 00:59:00.400 --> 00:59:03.079 you know, and when we do grasp it generally, you know, 1070 00:59:03.199 --> 00:59:06.119 strikes us pretty hard. All that. So any case, this 1071 00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:07.719 was sort of the thing I was. I was getting 1072 00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:12.519 into this, and I was doing, you know, very different 1073 00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:16.920 exercises going to these meetings. But on the lights side, 1074 00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:21.440 one of the things I did experience in this is 1075 00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:26.360 the Gurd Jeff uh Gerjeff's birthday is generally celebrated on 1076 00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:32.639 the thirteenth of January, and I was invited to a 1077 00:59:32.679 --> 00:59:38.360 celebration uh in a mansion in upstate New York. And 1078 00:59:39.159 --> 00:59:42.039 I the person who had got me in I met 1079 00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:43.760 with him and some others. We all got in the car, 1080 00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:45.719 didn't know the other people, and we drove and it 1081 00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:48.000 was and we got there. And if you again, if 1082 00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:52.039 you're familiar with the Gerd Jeff kind of uh millieu, 1083 00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:55.360 there's what they call the toast to the idiots. And 1084 00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:57.440 one of the things Gerd Jeff did was he used 1085 00:59:57.440 --> 00:59:59.760 to get people to knock back several, you know, very 1086 01:00:02.239 --> 01:00:06.360 strong shots of vodka, and the idiot, I mean, we 1087 01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:08.800 tend to think of idiot meaning somebody who's stupid. Idiot 1088 01:00:08.840 --> 01:00:14.599 actually means unique, like an idiosyncratic or idiosyncrasy. It's unique 1089 01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:17.840 to you. So if you look just the etymology of 1090 01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:20.559 it goes back to it just means unique. But an 1091 01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:22.920 idiot now means, well, you know whatever, somebody who is stupid. 1092 01:00:23.400 --> 01:00:27.920 But Gerjeff would say, there are different kinds of idiots. 1093 01:00:28.920 --> 01:00:31.320 And after you had a few of these shots of 1094 01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:33.920 the vodkas and you toast to the round idiot, you know, 1095 01:00:33.960 --> 01:00:37.480 to the square idiot, whatever it might be, your particular 1096 01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:40.480 kind of idiot would come come out and he would 1097 01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:44.000 see you and he would and he would and this 1098 01:00:44.199 --> 01:00:47.000 was well after I mean, he taught one thing to 1099 01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:49.079 U Spensky, and U Spensky turns it into a kind 1100 01:00:49.079 --> 01:00:51.639 of system, you know, kind of intellectual sort of system. 1101 01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:54.440 But Gergie was more the shaman Maha. He just had 1102 01:00:54.440 --> 01:00:59.239 the stuff and just to be around him. And what 1103 01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:01.280 he used to doing is last days in this tiny 1104 01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:04.800 flat he had in Paris. But he would cram as 1105 01:01:04.840 --> 01:01:07.519 many people as he could possibly into the dining room, 1106 01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:11.119 fifty people around a tiny little table where he prepared 1107 01:01:11.119 --> 01:01:16.119 this sumptuous, fantastic meal. And by the way, ger Jeff 1108 01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:20.599 Crowley and Young World good cooks. So someone should do 1109 01:01:20.599 --> 01:01:25.559 a cookbook of those guys. And while you were eating 1110 01:01:25.599 --> 01:01:27.679 all these meals and knocking back this vodka, he would 1111 01:01:27.719 --> 01:01:29.320 sort of see you and point out who you were 1112 01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:31.239 and all that kind of thing. So any case, that's 1113 01:01:31.239 --> 01:01:33.679 the background to that. So I'm taking to this mansion 1114 01:01:33.760 --> 01:01:38.239 up in upstate New York Gurjef celebration. We knocked back 1115 01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:42.519 quite a few, you know, shots of vodka, and then 1116 01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:46.599 we're told that we're going to be treated to a 1117 01:01:46.639 --> 01:01:51.679 special performance performance of Gilgamesh and fine, and who do 1118 01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:54.800 I see getting up on the stage. It's the comedian 1119 01:01:54.880 --> 01:01:59.119 actor Bill Murray Oh from Saturday Night Live. And see 1120 01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:01.760 he's up there, and I hadn't had anything to eat, 1121 01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:04.920 but I had like three or four these fuckers, And 1122 01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:07.199 every time he said, ank you do, I couldn't stop laughing. 1123 01:02:07.639 --> 01:02:12.920 And but no, if you remember the film Groundhog Day, 1124 01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:18.320 it's the eternal recurrence, It's the one day. But it's 1125 01:02:18.360 --> 01:02:20.480 not not so much in the work. But Uspensky is 1126 01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:22.800 one of Huspensky's pet ideas was this notion of rather 1127 01:02:22.840 --> 01:02:26.559 than reincarnation, there's what he calls the eternal wheel, the 1128 01:02:26.559 --> 01:02:29.559 eternal recurrence. You when you die, you were born again 1129 01:02:29.599 --> 01:02:34.679 into the same life and what you know throughout life, 1130 01:02:34.679 --> 01:02:36.960 there are opportunities for us to wake up and realize, 1131 01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:39.199 you know, where we are and to make different decisions 1132 01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:41.480 and all that. So that that was kind of But 1133 01:02:41.559 --> 01:02:44.360 also an early an earlier film that Bill Memory was 1134 01:02:44.400 --> 01:02:48.000 in was a remake of The Razor's Edge. That's the 1135 01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:50.599 Somerset mone There was a film in the forties with 1136 01:02:50.719 --> 01:02:56.800 Tyrone Power, and it's about somebody as like as a 1137 01:02:56.800 --> 01:03:00.000 socialite who goes through the harr of World War One 1138 01:03:00.039 --> 01:03:02.440 and then comes back and he realizes he can't he 1139 01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:05.079 can't live the shallow life anymore, and he must go, 1140 01:03:05.239 --> 01:03:07.360 you know, in search of the Truth. And it's supposally 1141 01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:10.039 be based on Christopher Isherwood, who was the English novel 1142 01:03:10.039 --> 01:03:13.800 who eventually got into Vedanta and things like that, but 1143 01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:16.480 Bill Murray did a version of that as well. So 1144 01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:20.480 and I knew people in Hollywood when when because I 1145 01:03:20.559 --> 01:03:22.079 knew people in the acting world, and a lot of 1146 01:03:22.119 --> 01:03:24.079 them are really into that kind of stuff because the 1147 01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:26.519 Gerzia version of it, not the Uspensey, but the Gersia 1148 01:03:26.679 --> 01:03:29.800 version does a lot of role playing and psychodrama and 1149 01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:32.280 things of that sort. And that was one of the 1150 01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:34.360 things that Spency couldn't deal with. It's just was too 1151 01:03:34.679 --> 01:03:36.280 kind of crazy for him, and he wanted to like, 1152 01:03:36.320 --> 01:03:37.960 it's a system, you know, you do it like that. 1153 01:03:42.440 --> 01:03:44.559 I like that story with you said World War one 1154 01:03:44.599 --> 01:03:47.960 and then came back, and it reminds me of I think. 1155 01:03:49.639 --> 01:03:49.880 It is. 1156 01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:52.519 The first Islamic alchemist has a story like that where 1157 01:03:52.559 --> 01:03:54.519 I think he was a prince that went really yeah, 1158 01:03:54.559 --> 01:03:56.199 and then afterwards he was like, oh, I give this 1159 01:03:56.199 --> 01:03:58.079 ship up, and he sort of getting into alchemy and 1160 01:03:58.119 --> 01:04:00.360 you know in the occult and stuff that's wanted to 1161 01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:02.199 hear like you know, somebody else kind of like having. 1162 01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:03.639 The same story. 1163 01:04:03.880 --> 01:04:05.639 I can see that stuff making you change your you 1164 01:04:05.719 --> 01:04:07.639 maybe change your ways, or making you look at the 1165 01:04:07.639 --> 01:04:13.719 world differently. Sure, yeah, was there anything else on the 1166 01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:15.599 book that you wanted to get into it? 1167 01:04:15.599 --> 01:04:17.119 Again? Like I understand you also want people. 1168 01:04:18.280 --> 01:04:20.480 It's just it's well, I mean, I could get all 1169 01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:24.559 profound uh and say it's a book about how becoming 1170 01:04:24.599 --> 01:04:29.679 who you are. I would say it's, Uh, that's Nietzsche 1171 01:04:29.679 --> 01:04:37.480 says that become who you are. Young's psychology of individuation 1172 01:04:37.639 --> 01:04:42.239 is about that, yeah, or Abram Maslow's psychology of self 1173 01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:44.400 actualization is about that. So I talked about in the book. 1174 01:04:44.400 --> 01:04:45.599 I mean that's what it is. I mean, that's I mean, 1175 01:04:45.599 --> 01:04:47.639 I've been kind of you know, keeping the funny stories 1176 01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:50.000 do here, but I mean, what happened. I'll tell you 1177 01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:52.519 the truth. There's a story behind writing the book. And 1178 01:04:52.719 --> 01:04:55.159 I say in the in the acknowledgments in the back 1179 01:04:55.280 --> 01:05:01.320 that I wrote this book, you know, to stay sane basically. 1180 01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:06.000 You know, whether it's achieved that or not, I don't know. 1181 01:05:06.039 --> 01:05:07.840 But I was going through a very very difficult time 1182 01:05:07.880 --> 01:05:11.920 in my life, and I'm going to details about it, 1183 01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:14.159 but there was a time and this was let's see. 1184 01:05:14.639 --> 01:05:17.639 I think I started reading writing at twenty twenty three, 1185 01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:21.239 I think. And oddly enough, I said the book, the 1186 01:05:21.280 --> 01:05:25.239 book ends with my leaving Los Angeles in coming here, okay, 1187 01:05:25.280 --> 01:05:27.760 And that was the beginning of January nineteen ninety six. 1188 01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:33.159 So at the beginning of January twenty twenty three, when 1189 01:05:33.159 --> 01:05:35.199 I was going through this very very difficult time in 1190 01:05:35.239 --> 01:05:41.639 my life, there's a place here in London called the 1191 01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:45.360 British Library, which was a fantastic resource if you have 1192 01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:48.800 a researcher. Everything published in the UK, there's a copy 1193 01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:50.440 of it there in tons of other stuff as well, 1194 01:05:50.639 --> 01:05:53.239 and you can bring your laptop and sit and get 1195 01:05:53.280 --> 01:05:57.360 a desk and you can work there. So living conditions 1196 01:05:57.639 --> 01:06:00.239 where I was living meant that I was spending quite 1197 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:04.280 a lot of time in this place, and and I 1198 01:06:04.320 --> 01:06:06.360 didn't have any work. I just finished this book I 1199 01:06:06.400 --> 01:06:10.320 was saying about this, Uh, this follower of Uspensky called 1200 01:06:10.360 --> 01:06:12.440 Morris Nickel, who started out as a YOUNGI and then 1201 01:06:12.519 --> 01:06:14.840 he became Musbensky and gerd chef and all that sort 1202 01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:17.760 of thing. So I just finished the book about him, 1203 01:06:18.239 --> 01:06:20.280 and he didn't have any work. And I'm the kind 1204 01:06:20.280 --> 01:06:21.639 of guy if I don't have work. It's you know, 1205 01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:23.159 I always say I need a break, and when I 1206 01:06:23.199 --> 01:06:25.559 don't have work, I go out of my mind. Uh 1207 01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:30.519 so I and and there you go, there you go, 1208 01:06:30.599 --> 01:06:34.559 and and I'm I can't stay at home. So I 1209 01:06:34.599 --> 01:06:36.519 just found myself in the library and I was just 1210 01:06:36.599 --> 01:06:38.719 reading stuff, and I said, I'm spared to do something. 1211 01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:45.280 And I think it just just an effort to assert 1212 01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:49.880 my existential being, my actual being in presence on here 1213 01:06:49.920 --> 01:06:54.320 on the planet. Because where what was happening I can't 1214 01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:56.159 go into detail, but what was happening was such that 1215 01:06:56.199 --> 01:06:58.639 I was feeling like, my god, this is this, This 1216 01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:01.199 can't be happening to me. Just cannot be the case. 1217 01:07:01.719 --> 01:07:04.679 So I have the mind parasites coming on me. So 1218 01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:07.039 I had to fight them off. And so I sat 1219 01:07:07.079 --> 01:07:10.119 down and said, just started, just just start writing. Just 1220 01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:12.519 sit down and start writing. So I sat down, I said, 1221 01:07:12.719 --> 01:07:15.760 I wrote, I am here. Yeah. Oh, on my sudden, 1222 01:07:16.159 --> 01:07:27.079 I actually have a copy, and I wrote, yeah. I'm 1223 01:07:27.119 --> 01:07:30.400 often asked how it went from being a rock star parentheses, 1224 01:07:30.480 --> 01:07:32.960 although I never was a star, more of a satellite 1225 01:07:33.239 --> 01:07:35.800 and one with an eccentric orbit, to a writer on 1226 01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:39.760 esotericism and the history of consciousness. This memoir is an 1227 01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:45.360 attempt to answer that question. So January twenty twenty three, 1228 01:07:45.519 --> 01:07:51.800 the January twenty twenty four, I answered that question beautiful. 1229 01:07:51.800 --> 01:07:54.400 Can I even have it? Yeah, I even have British 1230 01:07:54.440 --> 01:07:58.760 Library January twenty twenty three. January twenty twenty four completed 1231 01:07:58.840 --> 01:08:01.480 on the twenty eighth end of our of my relocation 1232 01:08:01.599 --> 01:08:04.480 to London. So the book ends at my leaving La 1233 01:08:04.679 --> 01:08:09.440 to come here. And I finished writing the book on 1234 01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:12.840 the twentieth anniversary of my coming here, and it'll soon 1235 01:08:12.920 --> 01:08:16.039 be the thirtieth later this year and knock on wood. 1236 01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:19.520 So it had this kind of oraboric kind of thing, 1237 01:08:19.560 --> 01:08:21.840 you know, the circle returning on itself in some way 1238 01:08:21.880 --> 01:08:24.800 which I hadn't planned, but it just came out that way. 1239 01:08:26.359 --> 01:08:28.039 So yeah, I mean, it's all the stuff about, you know, 1240 01:08:28.279 --> 01:08:32.279 growing up reading comic books. And I think I can 1241 01:08:32.319 --> 01:08:34.680 trace my interest in all this kind of stuff back 1242 01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:39.399 to when I was about five years old and there 1243 01:08:39.439 --> 01:08:43.439 was a comic strip in Adventure Comics DC Comics called 1244 01:08:43.439 --> 01:08:47.359 the Legion of Superheroes. I'm sure there's whatever now movies 1245 01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:49.159 about them now. I don't know if they were teenage 1246 01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:54.880 teenagers with superpowers from different planets and the future and 1247 01:08:55.039 --> 01:08:58.520 just weird stuff, and super Boy got involved with them. 1248 01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:04.680 Remain ones. There was Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl, and Cosmic Boy. 1249 01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:08.119 So I'm five years old. Lightning Lad makes sense, he 1250 01:09:08.159 --> 01:09:13.439 shot Lightning bulls. Saturn Saturn Girl quite gets she had 1251 01:09:13.479 --> 01:09:17.680 mental psychic powers, but there was a neat Saturn you know, 1252 01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:20.720 on her, on her bosom, you know, with the rings 1253 01:09:20.720 --> 01:09:24.279 and all that kind of thing. Cosmic Boy he had 1254 01:09:24.279 --> 01:09:27.439 like pink, white and black kind of costume and that 1255 01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:29.560 I don't know, if you know the British expression chav. 1256 01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:31.800 That it was kind of like chav colors, like pink 1257 01:09:31.840 --> 01:09:37.520 and black, real chav colors, and that he he had 1258 01:09:37.560 --> 01:09:42.079 magnetic powers, And I thought, why don't they call them 1259 01:09:42.439 --> 01:09:46.880 magnetic boy? What's what's cosmic got to do with it? 1260 01:09:47.560 --> 01:09:50.760 What does cosmic mean? So that's my sisters? I don't know, 1261 01:09:51.760 --> 01:09:54.039 yess my mother she didn't know. I didn't bother ask 1262 01:09:54.079 --> 01:09:58.159 my father. So I thought, ever since then, I've been 1263 01:09:58.159 --> 01:10:01.800 trying to figure that one out? So what does cosmic mean? 1264 01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:06.199 So it all started all started back then. So yeah, 1265 01:10:06.199 --> 01:10:09.600 so this comics influenced me. Then I got into Lovecraft 1266 01:10:09.640 --> 01:10:11.479 and all that kind of stuff and the Conan you know, 1267 01:10:11.479 --> 01:10:15.239 the rubberty Howard Conan stories. And I was a victim 1268 01:10:15.279 --> 01:10:18.159 of all the all that paperback reissue of the pulp 1269 01:10:19.279 --> 01:10:21.680 stuff from the thirties and the forties. And then a 1270 01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:25.640 hippie girl about nineteen seventy when I was fourteen, whom 1271 01:10:25.640 --> 01:10:27.439 I had a crush on. I can still remember the 1272 01:10:27.439 --> 01:10:31.520 smell of the pe Julia oil she wore. She handed 1273 01:10:31.560 --> 01:10:38.119 me a copy of hermann Hesse's novel, said Arthur, the 1274 01:10:38.439 --> 01:10:40.800 Bantam paperback. It was all blue and there was like 1275 01:10:40.800 --> 01:10:43.000 a stature of the Buddha on it, and that was 1276 01:10:43.039 --> 01:10:46.000 like the first serious, you know, literature I read. And 1277 01:10:46.039 --> 01:10:47.600 then that was at the beginning of my journey to 1278 01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:49.239 the East and all that, and I became a hess, 1279 01:10:49.520 --> 01:10:53.199 you know, one of the victims the many many early 1280 01:10:53.279 --> 01:10:56.199 teens and in America then and yeah, so that was like, well, 1281 01:10:56.319 --> 01:10:58.840 that's just that's drifted, that's who we went. And then 1282 01:10:58.880 --> 01:11:02.399 read the Beats and all that kind of stuff. You know, 1283 01:11:03.640 --> 01:11:09.199 found myself living in New York at eighteen, starving writing 1284 01:11:09.239 --> 01:11:13.159 really bad poetry. Not purposely writing bad poetry, but subsequently 1285 01:11:13.159 --> 01:11:17.000 I realized it was and this is before I joined 1286 01:11:17.039 --> 01:11:19.880 blondie was I was living. I was sharing a storefront 1287 01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:22.800 on East tenth Street between First Avenue and Avenue A. 1288 01:11:22.920 --> 01:11:24.800 And if you know New York in nineteen seventy four 1289 01:11:24.920 --> 01:11:27.840 seventy five, you didn't go It's Alphabet City. Now it's 1290 01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:30.079 like it's overpriced. You can't afford the cappuccinos. 1291 01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:32.039 Oh that was the hood back in the day, Alphabet City. 1292 01:11:32.199 --> 01:11:34.319 Yeah, back then you didn't got you just did not 1293 01:11:34.399 --> 01:11:37.279 go there. Yeah, you look tougher than I did. But 1294 01:11:38.439 --> 01:11:41.199 you know, But and the guy who was living it 1295 01:11:41.399 --> 01:11:43.560 was like a weird I tell these stories. This guy, 1296 01:11:43.600 --> 01:11:45.600 he's the weirdest guy where I grew up in Bay, 1297 01:11:45.680 --> 01:11:48.640 New Jersey. But then when we were sharing this place together, 1298 01:11:48.720 --> 01:11:51.680 he became a born again Jesus freak and drove his 1299 01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:55.920 witness and he wanted to start a rock band and 1300 01:11:56.159 --> 01:11:58.800 go to Israel and join the Kibbitz because the end 1301 01:11:58.840 --> 01:12:02.760 of the world was coming. That doesn't add up, Like 1302 01:12:03.159 --> 01:12:04.920 why do you want to start a band at the 1303 01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:07.520 end of the world's coming? And why an a kipp it? 1304 01:12:08.760 --> 01:12:12.199 Are you gonna play and ship like this? He stuff 1305 01:12:12.239 --> 01:12:14.319 like that, And this guy was gradually going off his 1306 01:12:14.479 --> 01:12:19.159 nut and Clem Burke the Lake. Clem Burke, who just 1307 01:12:19.399 --> 01:12:24.600 passed away earlier this year, one of the greatest drummers ever, 1308 01:12:24.600 --> 01:12:26.319 whom I knew from high school. We went to high 1309 01:12:26.319 --> 01:12:31.199 school together in Bayo, New Jersey, and he had only 1310 01:12:31.319 --> 01:12:36.039 just joined Blondie because they kept losing musicians. They kept 1311 01:12:36.039 --> 01:12:38.359 losing the drummer, the bass player, stuff like that. He 1312 01:12:38.399 --> 01:12:41.479 had only just joined. And the first gig he did 1313 01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:44.720 at CBGB, you know, the famous club where everybody came 1314 01:12:44.760 --> 01:12:49.359 out of the bass player quit and I was I 1315 01:12:49.399 --> 01:12:51.239 was not a musician. I was allowed to hang out 1316 01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:53.960 with the musicians in New Jersey. I could kind of 1317 01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:56.640 sort of almost maybe you know, play Johnny B. I 1318 01:12:56.720 --> 01:12:58.880 didn't get up to good, but you know, you know 1319 01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:02.119 so kind of kind of play. But that was what 1320 01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:04.079 you needed, you know. And in this place I was 1321 01:13:04.079 --> 01:13:06.960 living in the storefront and he's tent that there really was. 1322 01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:10.279 There was a broken down, upright piano for almost every 1323 01:13:10.359 --> 01:13:13.920 key was wrong. But I somehow learned how to, you know, 1324 01:13:14.479 --> 01:13:17.119 write songs on this and Clem said, come come in audition. 1325 01:13:18.159 --> 01:13:21.119 So I went and auditioned. What I remember is playing 1326 01:13:21.199 --> 01:13:24.399 the Stone song lived with me for like forever. I 1327 01:13:24.479 --> 01:13:26.399 kind of I could figure that one out. And then 1328 01:13:26.479 --> 01:13:29.279 the end they said, that's it. What happened after that 1329 01:13:29.479 --> 01:13:35.079 is that my roommate who he saw what was happening. 1330 01:13:35.239 --> 01:13:37.000 So I was playing in them and all that kind 1331 01:13:37.000 --> 01:13:39.159 of stuff, and he said, look it's it's either the 1332 01:13:39.239 --> 01:13:43.720 kibbitz or out, so he kicked me out. I didn't. 1333 01:13:43.760 --> 01:13:45.199 I was. I was on the street for a while, 1334 01:13:45.720 --> 01:13:49.279 I was sleeping in the studio, and then Debbie Harry 1335 01:13:49.439 --> 01:13:52.680 finally took me in. So she had a tiny one 1336 01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:58.039 bedroom flat in little Italy on Thompson Street and you 1337 01:13:58.079 --> 01:14:01.000 know where like there was an Italian social club below 1338 01:14:01.039 --> 01:14:04.000 and the Massachue ladies are sitting outside, you know, smoking 1339 01:14:04.039 --> 01:14:09.960 cigarettes and drinking their espressos. And I'm you know, she's 1340 01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:12.760 already living there with Christine and her three cats, and 1341 01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:16.119 all the all the guitars, the amps and stuff is 1342 01:14:16.159 --> 01:14:18.000 in there, and then now the bass players there. So 1343 01:14:18.399 --> 01:14:21.920 we crushed it. So from living in that tiny place, 1344 01:14:22.039 --> 01:14:24.880 then we moved into this loft space on the Bowery 1345 01:14:24.920 --> 01:14:29.079 and then my my life of magic began there. Sorry, 1346 01:14:29.119 --> 01:14:32.600 that was that's half of those there. That's great, thank you. 1347 01:14:34.039 --> 01:14:34.680 That isn't me. 1348 01:14:35.199 --> 01:14:37.239 That's an awesome story. Thank you very much. 1349 01:14:38.399 --> 01:14:41.359 It's almost sorry I'm going to interject. It's almost like 1350 01:14:41.640 --> 01:14:45.159 you had to you had to play for blinding in 1351 01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:49.760 order to be placed in the actual space, in the 1352 01:14:49.800 --> 01:14:53.600 actual space and time of these people to hand you 1353 01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:56.439 a book, to hand you an information, to invite you 1354 01:14:56.520 --> 01:15:00.000 to a party, to plant a seed in your brain. 1355 01:15:01.199 --> 01:15:01.840 And then too. 1356 01:15:03.880 --> 01:15:05.079 Well, I mean that's why I see it now. I 1357 01:15:05.079 --> 01:15:07.720 mean's idea. You know, your actions in the future can 1358 01:15:07.800 --> 01:15:10.039 regime your past, so everything up to the air could 1359 01:15:10.039 --> 01:15:12.239 be just it's a big, big mistake. It's all horrible. 1360 01:15:12.279 --> 01:15:16.199 Then oh you do some things. Oh yeah, it's all 1361 01:15:16.239 --> 01:15:18.439 added up to that. So that's well, we all have 1362 01:15:18.520 --> 01:15:23.000 that opportunity somewhere in life to kind of regime. And 1363 01:15:23.000 --> 01:15:25.399 that's like you know, you turn. That's how chemical you turnub, 1364 01:15:26.479 --> 01:15:27.399 That's what I was going to say. 1365 01:15:27.439 --> 01:15:29.520 It's very alchemical in the sense that you have to 1366 01:15:29.920 --> 01:15:34.600 u have this bottoming out basically to have the tabula 1367 01:15:34.720 --> 01:15:37.920 rasa to be able to create the new thing that 1368 01:15:38.079 --> 01:15:38.720 is becoming. 1369 01:15:39.399 --> 01:15:44.359 And uh yeah yeah. And I think as an paras 1370 01:15:44.359 --> 01:15:46.319 house is to kay is the mother of great things. 1371 01:15:46.560 --> 01:15:47.039 There you go. 1372 01:15:47.319 --> 01:15:51.079 And I think every artist in essence as you're working 1373 01:15:51.159 --> 01:15:55.920 through these creative processes. You have to have these bottom 1374 01:15:56.000 --> 01:15:59.960 times where you know you're able to have a larger 1375 01:16:00.079 --> 01:16:03.840 perspective to be able to move into and make something grow. 1376 01:16:04.359 --> 01:16:06.680 Yeah exactly, Yeah, yeah, that's true. True. 1377 01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:10.560 Yeah very well, sir, well, thank you very much again. 1378 01:16:10.600 --> 01:16:10.880 Gary. 1379 01:16:11.039 --> 01:16:14.640 It's awesome show, tons of stuff, great stories. I definitely 1380 01:16:14.680 --> 01:16:16.159 love to get you back on again, even to talk 1381 01:16:16.159 --> 01:16:20.079 about when your older books. Is there anything that you 1382 01:16:20.079 --> 01:16:21.960 would like to plug again, if you want to plug 1383 01:16:22.000 --> 01:16:22.680 the book or anything. 1384 01:16:23.319 --> 01:16:25.239 If you want to check me out. I've got a website. 1385 01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:30.159 It's I think it's Gary dash Lockman dot com. But 1386 01:16:30.239 --> 01:16:31.760 I think if you just, you know, put my name, 1387 01:16:31.880 --> 01:16:33.800 I'm so famous. If you just put my name in Google, 1388 01:16:33.960 --> 01:16:36.800 it'll take you right to it. And there's actually lots 1389 01:16:36.840 --> 01:16:40.920 of stuff up on YouTube videos and stuff like that. 1390 01:16:41.119 --> 01:16:44.880 And let's see. I'm trying to think what's coming up. 1391 01:16:46.960 --> 01:16:52.560 I will be in December for the Philosophical Research Society 1392 01:16:52.600 --> 01:16:54.880 and if you know them in LA. This was started 1393 01:16:54.880 --> 01:16:55.520 by Manly P. 1394 01:16:55.760 --> 01:16:56.000 Hall. 1395 01:16:56.199 --> 01:16:59.840 He was one of the great occult and hermitic encyclopedia 1396 01:17:00.159 --> 01:17:03.399 of the early twentieth century. Elvis Presley was one of 1397 01:17:03.399 --> 01:17:04.640 his readers. 1398 01:17:05.279 --> 01:17:05.960 Uh, and. 1399 01:17:07.920 --> 01:17:11.000 They there's a wonderful building that's in the Lost Peelss 1400 01:17:11.479 --> 01:17:14.800 area of LA and it's a weird Mayan Deco thing 1401 01:17:14.880 --> 01:17:19.319 that was like, uh, it's fantastic building. But they they 1402 01:17:19.359 --> 01:17:21.359 do online things and I'll be I'll be I'll be 1403 01:17:21.520 --> 01:17:23.800 giving a talk about the book for them in December 1404 01:17:23.840 --> 01:17:25.840 and all that. So I'll post that up on my 1405 01:17:25.920 --> 01:17:29.479 website and I post stuff up on on YouTube and 1406 01:17:29.920 --> 01:17:32.279 you know whatever it's called now Twister whatever it is 1407 01:17:32.319 --> 01:17:35.239 now these days and stuff like that. So yeah, I 1408 01:17:35.239 --> 01:17:39.159 mean god, I just have to say, it is so 1409 01:17:39.439 --> 01:17:45.000 strange being over here seeing what's happening. Uh, over here 1410 01:17:45.319 --> 01:17:48.399 sat side, it's it's it's my god. It's like it's 1411 01:17:48.479 --> 01:17:51.039 I can't It's like a bad dystopian movie. That's, oh 1412 01:17:51.039 --> 01:17:53.520 my god, this is like really happening, you know, So 1413 01:17:54.279 --> 01:17:55.560 keep the faith, you know. 1414 01:17:58.880 --> 01:17:59.960 That we're being sign opped. 1415 01:18:03.560 --> 01:18:05.960 Yeah, definitely, Well, I'll agree, I definitely like in one 1416 01:18:06.000 --> 01:18:08.279 of your books, I definitely think there's been a lot 1417 01:18:08.319 --> 01:18:10.239 of magic and occultism involves this. 1418 01:18:11.560 --> 01:18:14.039 Well. I mean again, I don't want to I didn't. 1419 01:18:14.119 --> 01:18:16.680 I mean I kind of I say I saw this 1420 01:18:16.720 --> 01:18:21.439 coming in Dark Star Arising magic compower in the age 1421 01:18:21.439 --> 01:18:24.119 of Trump, just in the sense that if you know 1422 01:18:24.159 --> 01:18:26.079 anything about him, you knew that this was. It's just 1423 01:18:26.119 --> 01:18:29.199 incredible and all the kind of I mean, wait for 1424 01:18:29.279 --> 01:18:33.760 the torchlight, you know, processions. I mean what I saw 1425 01:18:33.800 --> 01:18:37.359 on the news here of that funeral service, you know, 1426 01:18:38.079 --> 01:18:40.720 for the fellow Charlie. 1427 01:18:40.840 --> 01:18:41.000 Uh. 1428 01:18:41.119 --> 01:18:43.680 It just it's just it's in any case, you can't 1429 01:18:43.960 --> 01:18:49.960 it just seems so stupidly cliched textbook exactly the same thing. 1430 01:18:50.479 --> 01:18:53.600 And even Stephen Miller he looks like Gerbel's and he's 1431 01:18:53.800 --> 01:18:59.760 he's he's plagiarizing. And you think, I don't know, I mean, 1432 01:19:00.640 --> 01:19:02.920 they'll be after me after saying this. I know, I 1433 01:19:02.920 --> 01:19:05.119 mean I just think, you know, it just seems it 1434 01:19:05.199 --> 01:19:11.439 just seems how stupid, how obviously stupid. Can it gets 1435 01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:12.920 to ask. 1436 01:19:14.880 --> 01:19:20.399 The terminology, the colors they're using, the every it's yeah, yeah. 1437 01:19:19.920 --> 01:19:22.399 Well he's a showman. That Trump is a showman. And 1438 01:19:22.439 --> 01:19:24.199 this is one of the things I say in the book, 1439 01:19:24.279 --> 01:19:26.760 where again there's the power positive thinking, that's the one 1440 01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:29.560 magical side of him that Norman Vincent Peel, you know, 1441 01:19:30.720 --> 01:19:32.920 focus on it, forget about the facts. But it's also 1442 01:19:33.000 --> 01:19:35.239 the glamour. It's also the show. It's also the biggest 1443 01:19:35.560 --> 01:19:37.600 spectacle kind of thing, and that's you know, he did 1444 01:19:37.640 --> 01:19:39.960 you know, beauty pageants and all that kind of crap, 1445 01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:43.079 and and I mean that's that's part of the magical 1446 01:19:43.119 --> 01:19:45.359 side of it. It's glamor, you know, it's like, you know, 1447 01:19:45.479 --> 01:19:48.880 it's definitely that kind of thing. And it's it's it's 1448 01:19:49.000 --> 01:19:50.560 it's gone. I don't know, you know. 1449 01:19:51.279 --> 01:19:53.319 And then when you let the vampire in your house, 1450 01:19:53.479 --> 01:19:54.920 it's another story. 1451 01:19:55.199 --> 01:19:56.680 I have to get him out, I'll tell you. Yeah, 1452 01:19:56.840 --> 01:19:59.319 that's a good way to put it. Yeah, I like 1453 01:19:59.439 --> 01:20:02.239 that's true. So sad. And it's like I did, It's like, 1454 01:20:02.359 --> 01:20:04.199 are they waiting for him to keel over? So that 1455 01:20:04.399 --> 01:20:10.880 you know, the the reason he was after the cat 1456 01:20:10.960 --> 01:20:13.600 Ladies is he's a cat person. You just look at him. 1457 01:20:14.279 --> 01:20:16.439 He's like that old movie cat People. You look at 1458 01:20:16.439 --> 01:20:21.079 his eyes, he looks like a cat person. I mean, 1459 01:20:21.119 --> 01:20:22.960 I really, I really think so that's why he was 1460 01:20:23.000 --> 01:20:25.039 after the cat ladies because they would have they would 1461 01:20:25.319 --> 01:20:26.920 they would have noticed, they would have found him out. 1462 01:20:27.000 --> 01:20:32.359 So sorry, all right, uh but yes, thank you very much. 1463 01:20:32.479 --> 01:20:34.359 Gary, Like I said, I'd probably like to have you 1464 01:20:34.399 --> 01:20:36.319 on in the future to talk about that one very 1465 01:20:36.319 --> 01:20:39.640 interesting stuff real quick before you wrap it up, I'll 1466 01:20:39.680 --> 01:20:42.479 let the other rejects quickly plug themselves again or whatever 1467 01:20:42.479 --> 01:20:45.479 they like to Lisa you call reject man scientist or what. 1468 01:20:45.399 --> 01:20:45.840 Is going on? 1469 01:20:47.199 --> 01:20:49.600 Thank you Nick for having me on asking me on. 1470 01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:52.840 Thank you so much, Jerry for sharing your book with 1471 01:20:52.920 --> 01:20:56.359 us and sharing all of those little anecdotal stories as 1472 01:20:56.359 --> 01:20:59.960 well as kind of entertaining some of our questions. I 1473 01:21:00.520 --> 01:21:02.199 the only thing I would like to plug is your 1474 01:21:02.199 --> 01:21:05.079 cool research institute dot org where some of the other 1475 01:21:05.119 --> 01:21:10.000 rejects have contributed to content on it. And check us 1476 01:21:10.039 --> 01:21:13.439 out there and Gary again, thank you fellow rejects. Amazing 1477 01:21:13.520 --> 01:21:15.800 to also have a discussion with you guys. 1478 01:21:15.960 --> 01:21:19.239 Thank you awesome, thank you, and I appreciate you joining us. 1479 01:21:19.600 --> 01:21:22.000 And mister Jin the ninja over here. 1480 01:21:22.880 --> 01:21:25.039 Thank you so much, Boss, appreciate it. And thank you 1481 01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:27.039 of course, Gary. That's an honor to be on a 1482 01:21:27.199 --> 01:21:31.560 roundtable with you. Thank you for letting me fielding my questions, 1483 01:21:31.600 --> 01:21:33.920 and of course the other rejects. If you want to 1484 01:21:34.079 --> 01:21:37.119 check me out at Wukong Reborn, w uk O and 1485 01:21:37.159 --> 01:21:40.600 g Reborn on nex Twitter or at Threshold Saints as 1486 01:21:40.600 --> 01:21:43.000 well as on ig at Threshold Saints and if you're 1487 01:21:43.000 --> 01:21:45.760 interested in The Gray Lodge, which is a speculative gnostic 1488 01:21:45.800 --> 01:21:48.680 group Meta Magicians for a new and you can check 1489 01:21:48.760 --> 01:21:51.720 us out at the True gray Lodge dot com. But 1490 01:21:51.880 --> 01:21:54.479 True is with a V, not a you. So thank 1491 01:21:54.520 --> 01:21:57.640 you guys so much, appreciate it and have a great 1492 01:21:57.840 --> 01:22:01.079 uh you know, evening. Thank you, thank you, thank you. 1493 01:22:01.199 --> 01:22:01.359 Jen. 1494 01:22:01.399 --> 01:22:04.760 I appreciate you joining us man as always, and Robbie Marks. 1495 01:22:04.600 --> 01:22:04.680 So. 1496 01:22:06.319 --> 01:22:08.439 Yeah, I would like to say thank you to such 1497 01:22:08.479 --> 01:22:10.760 a great crew. It's always good to come and talk 1498 01:22:10.760 --> 01:22:14.560 with all you and Gary, I really appreciate your time 1499 01:22:14.640 --> 01:22:18.520 and coming on and sharing the stories. As far as myself, 1500 01:22:18.600 --> 01:22:20.960 if you'd like to check out, I'm gonna encourage you 1501 01:22:21.000 --> 01:22:23.560 if you want to just you know, go view some artwork. 1502 01:22:23.880 --> 01:22:27.119 Go check out my link tree r M A r 1503 01:22:27.359 --> 01:22:30.800 X and that has my website, my Etsy, my Instagram 1504 01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:32.520 is where you're going to get most of my art. 1505 01:22:33.319 --> 01:22:37.800 Twitters where I talk most of my weirdness. But then 1506 01:22:38.000 --> 01:22:40.399 uh yeah, you know, I just encourage you to go 1507 01:22:40.680 --> 01:22:44.560 look and check out and let it play with your eyes. 1508 01:22:44.960 --> 01:22:49.479 So and that's about it. Thanks for everything, and Nick, 1509 01:22:49.520 --> 01:22:50.840 thanks for having me on for sure. 1510 01:22:51.239 --> 01:22:53.319 Of course, Robbie, I'm glad you could make it. 1511 01:22:54.039 --> 01:22:56.479 And again Gary, thank you very much for coming on, 1512 01:22:56.640 --> 01:22:58.760 and the other rejectually appreciate you making the time and 1513 01:22:58.840 --> 01:23:01.680 jumping on. And that that's the end of another recall rejects, 1514 01:23:01.720 --> 01:23:04.560 and until the next one, everybody be well later