WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:03.560 Golf Smarter number four hundred and fifty five. 2 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:08.759 Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, your second chance to gain 3 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:12.359 insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the 4 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:18.399 Golf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction never gets old. Our 5 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:23.280 interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations 6 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:26.960 like this that are no longer available in any podcast app. 7 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:29.760 When I talked to most of the surviving players on 8 00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:33.079 both teams, it's just like today, great honor to play 9 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:35.880 on the team. They were excited about playing the Ryder Cup. 10 00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:39.640 Even America, who expected to win. To make the team, 11 00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:44.119 was this huge honor. Ken Still said, this is two 12 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:46.119 years ago. It's a quote that's in the book, and 13 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:49.039 I might not having exactly right, but he said, in fact, 14 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:52.759 I might be buried in the blue Ryder Cup jacket. No, 15 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:55.759 they got along and they said I would play with 16 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:59.200 anyone on the team. Frank Beard told me that it 17 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:02.560 wasn't at all like today, where there's just all this 18 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:05.040 build up and you know the captain and you're ahead 19 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:07.319 of time, and it's talk talk talk, and they're trying 20 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:09.560 to figure out what players to put together, and there's 21 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:13.719 these sessions of psychological stuff and pep talks. None of 22 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:17.400 that in sixty nine, just kind of old school. Here 23 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:20.599 we go, here's my lineup. I asked Frank Beard. I said, 24 00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:22.920 what was sneed like as a captain? He said, well, 25 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:25.120 it wasn't like today, he said. We might have had 26 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:27.760 one meeting and it might have lasted five minutes. 27 00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:35.280 Nineteen sixty nine Ryder Cup Finish that Shocked the World 28 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:40.560 with author Neil Sagabut. This is Golf Smarter. Welcome back 29 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:44.040 to the Golf Smarter Podcast. Neil, it's good to be 30 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:46.319 with you, Fred, it's good to be with you. It's 31 00:01:46.359 --> 00:01:49.319 good to be here. It's very good to be here. 32 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:51.519 I'll give you more details on that in a minute. 33 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:55.079 Before we get started, though, I want to remind everyone 34 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:57.719 of the last time you were on the show, episode 35 00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:03.319 three fifty three and three fiftyfty four, for your great 36 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:05.760 book on the nineteen fifty five US Open. 37 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.280 Yeah, thank you. It seems so long ago, but I 38 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:12.560 guess it was only a couple of years ago. 39 00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:15.879 Yeah, yeah, well it was for it came out just 40 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:18.719 in time for the twenty twelve US Open that was 41 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:20.000 played in San Francisco. 42 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:24.800 Yeah, that's right. At the Olympic Club, and I think 43 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:27.400 that's the fifth time that they played the Open there, 44 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:29.680 and the first time, of course, was in fifty five 45 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:33.560 when Jack Fleck upset Ben Hogan and one of the 46 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:35.520 greatest upsets in the history of the game. 47 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:39.639 And that's what prompted your book, The Longest Shut, Right, 48 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:43.599 that's right, and that book is still available on our 49 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:47.159 website in our Golfers mart Congratulations. It's gotten great praise 50 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:50.719 because it was a really entertaining and timely story. And 51 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.000 that's what we're going to talk about today because this 52 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:57.800 weekend we've got the Ryder Cup happening, and you've gone 53 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:00.840 back in history once again to fly shout a story 54 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:03.080 that may not have been a big story at the time, 55 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:07.360 but the nineteen sixty nine Ryder Cup, what you call 56 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:08.639 the Draw in the Dunes. 57 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:14.319 Yeah, I don't think anybody it was an unexpected week 58 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:18.280 in nineteen sixty nine. This Ryder Cup was not what 59 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:21.840 it is today. It had all the elements really that 60 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:27.280 it has today, playing for your country, playing match play, 61 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:31.479 playing with your teammates, and for a captain, but it 62 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:34.159 had been pretty one sided up until that point. In 63 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:38.000 America was winning a lot and then we had these 64 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:42.599 nineteen sixty nine matches which when I looked into this 65 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:47.800 and also even based on what else I've read, this 66 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:50.560 was one of the best Ryder Cups ever played. It 67 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:54.520 was and it's known. What people know it for is 68 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:57.439 the ending, of course, and that's what caught my eye 69 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:01.280 when I was thinking about writing another book, that famous 70 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:04.599 ending with Nicholas, Jack Nicholas and Tony Jaqueline on the 71 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:05.280 final green. 72 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:10.439 But no spoiler alerts, don't give out the final ending. 73 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:15.680 We're going to get there, okay, but go ahead. 74 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:19.439 It was a great Ryder Cup and it was a 75 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:24.959 surprise to the American team that went over there. It 76 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:28.079 was again a different era. It was a great Britain 77 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:32.279 team back then and not a European team. But it 78 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:36.879 was a thrilling week and it had everything that you 79 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:39.240 could want in a Ryder Cup that would make it 80 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:45.639 exciting and great and suspenseful. There was and you know, 81 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:50.720 there was some acrimony, so it was quite a dramatic 82 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:52.639 week there at Royal Birkdale. 83 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.480 Yeah. Yeah, so let me let me tell you my 84 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:58.800 story about reading your book. I just got back from 85 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:01.519 a week vacation. I was going down to Mexico for 86 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.240 a week and was going to read the book while 87 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:06.720 I was there, you know, lay on the beach and 88 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:10.439 read a book. How perfect can life be? And so 89 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.279 I started reading it, and I started getting into the 90 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:17.360 background of Tony Jacqueline and how you set up who 91 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:21.439 he was and how he became, you know, one of 92 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:25.759 the first British players to really make have an impact 93 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:28.879 in the United States. I was really enjoying it, and 94 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:31.560 I was just starting to get into nineteen sixty nine. 95 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:37.000 And I also love the way you incorporate world history 96 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:39.360 as place markers to what was going on, to all 97 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:43.120 your stories. And then just as I was about to 98 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:48.959 get to the Ryder Cup, Hurricane O'Dell hit Cabo San Lucas, 99 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:52.480 which was where I was, and we were right in 100 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:57.439 the heart of it, and we got stranded. I am 101 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:01.759 a I'm a refugee of heran odeal. It was an 102 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:07.759 amazing and terrifying event and it took us three days. 103 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:10.959 We didn't get out until Wednesday. The hurricane was Sunday night, 104 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:14.920 and so I didn't get to finish the book. So 105 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:18.000 it's up to you, my friend, to tell me the 106 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:20.360 entire story. I want to hear it now. 107 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:25.920 Well, first of all, Fred I have to say, I'm 108 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:29.160 just glad you're you're back at home and that we're 109 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:32.600 having this conversation. Thank you, Thank you and your wife 110 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:36.560 are safe and you weren't injured, right. 111 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:41.319 No, Luckily none of the windows in the room we 112 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.720 were staying and imploded like the rest of the resort. 113 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:48.519 The resort that we were staying at was pretty much destroyed. 114 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:52.680 I would be very surprised if they're open again for 115 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:57.199 the Christmas rush, and they were, they were. There were 116 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.680 people telling us. I talked to a couple of hotel managers. 117 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:03.360 They were telling us that it could be three weeks 118 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:08.680 to a month before they get any electricity, and there 119 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:11.600 was no water, there was no sewage, and the sewage 120 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:13.360 was starting to back up in the street, and there 121 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:17.680 was looting and rioting and martial law was set. It 122 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:23.399 got ugly really fast, but we luckily had each other 123 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:26.240 and didn't get injured and were able to make it 124 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:30.480 through it. And because both of us worked in media 125 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:33.800 in the San Francisco area for a long time, we 126 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:35.560 still have a lot of friends who are in it. 127 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:39.279 And as we got off the plane in San Francisco, 128 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:42.519 there was a news crew waiting for us. So luckily 129 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:44.879 they knew that I would be the guy who has 130 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:49.319 a lot of video and photos of what happened, and 131 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:52.759 so I will post there's a news story from a 132 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:54.800 local TV station. There's a news story, and I'll put 133 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:58.360 it on our website as well to show our adventure, 134 00:07:58.839 --> 00:07:59.959 if that's what you want to call it. 135 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:03.920 That was that was quite an adventure. And actually I 136 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:07.040 saw it right before we started talking today, and I 137 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:11.319 was just sort of a gast and and and then 138 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:15.439 I saw your email that said safely returned from Mexico, 139 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:17.000 and I was so glad to hear that. 140 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:17.800 Thank you. 141 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:22.959 Was that I know we're going to talk about this book, 142 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:27.560 but was that was that the most terrifying experience of 143 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:29.600 your life? 144 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:37.200 Wow? How crazy is this that I have to think 145 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:41.600 about it. A couple of years ago, my wife was 146 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:46.840 a victim of a car accident. She was a pedestrian 147 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.799 hit by a car. And that that may have been 148 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.440 one of the more challenging things in my life because, 149 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:56.919 you know, we later learned after it was all over 150 00:08:57.039 --> 00:08:58.759 and she made it and stuff, we later learned how 151 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:02.200 close she was to not make it. But as something 152 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:06.200 we experienced together, it was. It was really frightening. It 153 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:11.240 was There were definitely thoughts crossing my mind that may 154 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:15.279 not make it back to the United States. Definitely that 155 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:18.080 thought crossed my mind. And I think it would have 156 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:21.919 been much worse if any of the windows imploded in 157 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.279 our place. They actually the first room we were in, 158 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:28.120 we were right on top of the beach. It was 159 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.240 on the fifth floor of a sixth story resort, and 160 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:35.879 we literally were thirty yards from the waves breaking. And 161 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:41.600 they at three o'clock on Sunday afternoon. We arrived Saturday night, 162 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:45.559 and by three o'clock Sunday afternoon, they had moved us 163 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:48.960 to a different room in the complex because they said 164 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:50.600 it was safe. And we're like, we didn't even know 165 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:52.159 this was coming. We thought there was going to be 166 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:54.519 rain on Sunday night. That was the forecast, that was 167 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:59.600 going to be rain, And so we moved into a 168 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:03.039 different room and we later went back and you saw 169 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:05.759 on the video, you saw how we went back into 170 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.360 that room and it was there was glass all over 171 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:10.799 and it wasn't like tempered glass. It was just you know, 172 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:13.720 little shards, I mean little pieces of glass. It was 173 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:16.639 shards of glass. And there was one person from our 174 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:21.559 hotel who got very bloodied because the glass hit him, 175 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:25.440 and his wife broke her arm. But if the glass 176 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:27.960 would have broken in our room, I think we would 177 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.519 have freaked out a bit more than we actually did. 178 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:38.200 But the sounds of it were incredible. We had one 179 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:41.000 hundred and thirty five mile an hour sustained winds and 180 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.759 one hundred and fifty mile an hour gusts, and a 181 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:46.840 lot of the construction there in that area they used 182 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:50.759 the Spanish tile roofing, and the tiles were flying everywhere, 183 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:53.159 and they were crashing onto cars, and it sounded like, 184 00:10:53.320 --> 00:11:00.080 you know, bottles breaking NonStop. And then at about and 185 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:02.919 I'm from California, I'll give me an earthquake any day. Right, 186 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:05.679 it's a beautiful day. Whoops, the ground is shaking. Okay, 187 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.200 it's over, and it's still a beautiful day. The anticipation, 188 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.600 they said it's coming, So the anticipation for hours drove 189 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:17.960 us crazy, and then the hours of the hurricane terrified us. 190 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:23.279 And then at midnight it got quiet and it was 191 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:28.159 very calm, and then at twelve thirty it picked up again. 192 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:32.159 So clearly the eye of the hurricane went directly over us. 193 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:38.320 So yeah, I answer your question. It was pretty terrifying. 194 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:41.480 Yeah, I can't even imagine it. I know friends who've 195 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:46.159 been through a hurricane, but I just can't. I wouldn't 196 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.279 want to go through that. I'm sorry you've been through it. 197 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:50.519 I'm glad. I'm glad you're okay in. 198 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:53.960 Well, I don't want to go through it again. I've 199 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:59.039 been in Atlanta once and in Indianapolis once when Tornado 200 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:02.919 Watch was happy and we had to you know, in Indianapolis, 201 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:05.879 we had to evacuate into a bunker underground and that 202 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:08.559 made me a little bit crazy, but nothing happened. And 203 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:11.200 you know, a tornado, you can see the path of 204 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:14.120 a tornado when you know when it does its destruction, 205 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.559 but houses may get you know, run right over, but 206 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:20.799 the houses on the sides of it don't have as 207 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.039 that kind of damage. An earthquake most of the time 208 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.159 on earthquakes, especially in northern California that's kind of built 209 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:32.360 for earthquakes that you know, they're prepared for it. You 210 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:36.000 have isolated instances. When we were in the nineteen eighty 211 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:39.799 nine earthquake, we were actually a Candlestick park at the 212 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:44.720 World Series, and when that occurred, we had I think 213 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:48.720 there were three major areas of destruction during that earthquake, 214 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:50.720 and that was the Bay Bridge we had just been 215 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.919 on a half hour earlier, the Oakland area, the freeway 216 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:57.799 that had collapsed, the MacArthur Freeway that collapsed, which we 217 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:01.360 drove by that night and saw. And in the Marina 218 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:04.159 district in San Francisco the ball of fire, the fires 219 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:06.840 that were in downtown and we drove by those that 220 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:10.759 night as we were leaving the ballpark. But here with 221 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:16.360 the hurricane, it was everywhere. You didn't miss anything, and 222 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:19.240 it went right. It surprised them. They thought it was 223 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:21.480 going to go west and stay off land, but it 224 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:24.320 came right up the middle of the Baja Peninsula and 225 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:28.639 went up through La Pause. So there was a tremendous 226 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:32.879 amount of destruction. At this point, I understand they only 227 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:36.840 have five confirmed deaths, which is really remarkable, but a 228 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:40.679 lot of injury and the rioting and the looting that 229 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:44.840 took place and continued to grow until they had to 230 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:46.399 declare martial law on Wednesday. 231 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:48.679 Incredible. 232 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:58.600 Yeah, yeah, but enough of that. I'm safe, I'm here 233 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:02.200 and it's time for golf. Thank goodness, I get to 234 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:06.080 do this again. I have this to do, so let's 235 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:08.200 talk about your book Please Draw in the Dunes, the 236 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:11.519 nineteen sixty nine Ryder Cup and the finish that shocked 237 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:14.519 the world. So I'm going to just sit back and 238 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:18.080 I want you to take it from the top and 239 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:20.159 tell me, set up the story, and then give it 240 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:20.519 to me. 241 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:26.360 Please well without giving away the ending right off the bat. 242 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:33.679 That was what caught my eye, and that was where 243 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:36.559 I started looking into this, and I thought, why did 244 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:39.200 that matter so much? Why that was that such a 245 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:43.799 big deal, Why is it so well remembered, and why 246 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.159 do we still see clips of it? And we'll probably 247 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:49.200 see clips of it this week during the Ryder coverage 248 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:53.720 of Nicholas and Jacqueline on that Final Green. And so 249 00:14:53.879 --> 00:15:02.039 when I started researching this topic, I discovered what journalists 250 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:04.559 called at that time the greatest Ryder Cup that had 251 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:07.679 ever been played. And I think it's near the top 252 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.200 of a lot of people's list even today. It was. 253 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.480 In some ways it resembles my first book in that 254 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:19.000 you have a heavy underdog, the Great Britain team, and 255 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:21.840 you have the Americans who have just been owning them 256 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:28.039 ever since the early thirties. Great Britain's won once they 257 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:36.919 won in nineteen fifty seven over there, and in the 258 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:40.720 Ryder Cup that precedes this nineteen sixty nine Ryder Cup. 259 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:44.559 I go into that and you've probably read that chapter. 260 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:49.120 It's the second chapter. It's called Champions. I thought it 261 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:51.440 was important to set up the story, not only give 262 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:55.039 the context of the era, but talk about what happened 263 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:59.960 in sixty seven at Houston. And what happened was America 264 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.080 by fifteen points, largest march in the history of the 265 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:06.840 Ryder Cup. Ben Hogan was captain of the American side. 266 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:09.600 And this is without Jack Nicholas. They didn't even have 267 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:12.679 Nicholas on the team. Now, they had a lot of 268 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:17.360 other great players like Billy Casper and Arnold Palmer So. 269 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:21.679 And sixty seven was also this young man named Tony 270 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:25.320 Jacklin's first Ryder Cup as well, and he had a 271 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:31.039 pretty good debut, even though his side got whipped pretty handily. 272 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:37.120 So in the early part of the story, I set 273 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:41.320 up the what golf is like in this era, what 274 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:43.679 it's like in America, what it's like in Great Britain. 275 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:47.600 And now you know, we see we see European players 276 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:51.120 in America every week they play on the PGA Tour. 277 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:54.519 There are really no barriers to them other than their 278 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:58.200 ability to play. But back then it was still very separate. 279 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:03.159 And as you mentioned early on, Tony Jacqueline was one 280 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:08.000 of the few players from Great Britain that played on 281 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:11.880 the American Tour, and it wasn't really a very welcoming 282 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:14.640 tour in those days. It wasn't really set up for 283 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:18.839 these foreign guys to come over and play. But Jacqueline 284 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:25.480 earned his way onto the tour, and this particular story 285 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:30.279 drawing the Dunes also chronicles his rise in golf. That 286 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:34.759 year he won the British Open in July, the first 287 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:39.519 grit to win the British Open in eighteen years. So 288 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:44.400 he's the star of his team heading into Royal Birkdale, 289 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:50.559 one of the twelve men and Nicholas. Interestingly, and this 290 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:53.799 has been a topic for a lot of conversation I've 291 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:56.440 been having since the book has come out, is playing 292 00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:59.359 his first Ryder Cup even though he's a seven year 293 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:06.440 veteranan tour and nine eleven teammates are also playing their 294 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:09.880 first one. So you have a bunch of rookies and 295 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:13.839 the reason for that is the PGA of America back 296 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:17.640 in that day had a stipulation that you had to 297 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:23.359 be a PGA professional a member for five years before 298 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:25.720 you were eligible to play on the Ryder Cup team. 299 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:33.680 So Jack barely missed in sixty seven. And now he's 300 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.400 twenty nine years old, He's won seven majors at this 301 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.680 stage in his career, not quite thirty wins on tour, 302 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:45.440 and he's playing in his first as are ten of 303 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:50.799 his teammates. And you have five rookies on the Great 304 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:56.000 Britain team. Just for the I know you've got great 305 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.519 golf fans on your show who really get into this stuff. Red, 306 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:02.599 I'm probably going into a little bit more detail than 307 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:07.279 I do on several of my interviews, But the way 308 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:12.359 the teams were determined in nineteen sixty nine, America was 309 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:17.720 determined entirely on a points system, so the top twelve 310 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:21.960 players in the point standings made the team. The captain 311 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:27.279 was Sam Snead. People recognize that name. Sam had no picks, 312 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:30.319 and I'm sure it was of no concern at all 313 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:35.119 to him because America always won. You know, I think 314 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:38.440 they probably felt like, whether they said it out loud 315 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:40.759 or not, that they could go over there WITHINNY twelve 316 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:41.920 and win. 317 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.960 And the press treated it that way as well, right. 318 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:52.000 It was almost a non event over here because you know, 319 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:55.680 back in that day it was probably seen more as 320 00:19:55.720 --> 00:20:00.440 an exhibition from the American side of things, because, as 321 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.200 I said earlier, it had all these great elements and 322 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.880 all this great potential, and it was pretty pretty neat 323 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:11.079 and compelling when it started. But what it lacked was competition, 324 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:17.079 competitive matches at being close, at being exciting. That was missing. So, 325 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.640 you know, there's so many things going on in nineteen 326 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:25.480 sixty nine, and it's a little bit there are these 327 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:29.200 little cultural things I put in there to remind people 328 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:33.559 of what was going on. Then the Vietnam War, Richard 329 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:39.920 Nixon entering the White House, the moon landing with Neil Armstrong. 330 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:42.720 Making a comment about golf when he was on the moon. 331 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:46.480 That's right. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I found that 332 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:50.000 in Golf Illustrat, which is a British was a British 333 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:52.640 weekly golf magazine. In fact, it's still around. 334 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:55.640 I didn't realize it was a British publication. 335 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:00.680 Yeah, And in doing my research, I can just tell 336 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:05.599 your audience too that a lot of it came from 337 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:08.440 the other side of the pond because it just wasn't 338 00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:12.440 covered as heavily over here. It was probably relegated more 339 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.480 to the back pages of the sports page. Now it 340 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:20.039 was covered. There were New York Times stories, there were 341 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:24.559 some Golf magazine stories, but it was very heavily covered 342 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:26.799 in Great Britain, where they really loved their golf and 343 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:30.559 they had high hopes for their boys, even though they lost. 344 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.079 You know, in America that September, you're in the middle 345 00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:40.359 of a baseball pennant race and the Chicago Cubs are 346 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:43.359 looking like they're going to win the Pennant, but they don't. 347 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.920 And people who are baseball fans have heard this before 348 00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:49.119 with the Cubs. 349 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:50.559 Yeah, a couple of times. 350 00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:55.440 Yeah, And that was the year of the Miracle Mets, 351 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:58.400 and some people who were around will remember that when 352 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.680 they surprise everyone they won the Pennant and then they 353 00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:04.759 beat the Baltimore Orioles in the World Series. 354 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:08.319 So you know, Tom Seaver exactly. 355 00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:14.599 So it's so many things happened that year. But as 356 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.960 it turned out, it did end up being a pivotal 357 00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:23.400 year in the Ryder Cup because when they got to Burkedale, 358 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:30.079 they had these great exciting matches. The British guys played 359 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:34.960 really well and they had a very I don't know 360 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.200 if you've gotten to this part yet, Fred, but their 361 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:42.640 captain was a Scott named Eric Brown, very fiery, competitive, 362 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:48.559 win it all costs mentality sort of guy, and he 363 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:52.839 had been a Ryder Cup player and it actually won 364 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:57.000 matches in an arrow when his side usually was losing. 365 00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:00.720 He was undefeated in singles, which was kind of an 366 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:04.279 anomaly for guys on his side, and he brought a 367 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:11.119 different attitude to the matches. He didn't bow to the Americans. 368 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:15.000 He was like, come on, guys, we're gonna we can 369 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.240 We can play with these guys, we can beat them. 370 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.000 And that was his attitude. And then you've got kind 371 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:28.440 of krusty old school Sam Snead who doesn't believe in 372 00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:33.400 things like conceiting putts, which sets up our ending nicely, 373 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.519 and who is as captain twice before. He's been a 374 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:41.319 captain twice before, and he's making his eighth appearance in 375 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:45.200 the Ryder Cup. Never lost, never been on a losing team, 376 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:51.039 and there's never been a tie. So uh, A lot 377 00:23:51.079 --> 00:24:01.000 of really interesting things happened that week at Royal Birkdale. 378 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.599 If I can take you back a moment, give me 379 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:08.519 the history of how the ryder Cup began, well. 380 00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:12.759 I'll give you the you know, I've got that detail 381 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:14.720 in the book because I wanted to give readers who 382 00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:16.599 aren't that familiar with it some background. 383 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:18.359 Yeah, I thought that was so interesting. 384 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:23.799 Now I want readers to know. I put that backstory 385 00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:26.240 in there, but I don't think it'll bog them down. 386 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:30.319 It's in the first chapter, and we peel back to 387 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:34.720 the beginning and I cover that the origins of it 388 00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:39.119 in about seven pages, and I bring it back forward 389 00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:42.640 to nineteen sixty eight sixty nine, which is where the 390 00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:47.480 book starts, but it started. It got its name ryder 391 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:54.599 Cup from Samuel Ryder, who was an English seeds tycoon. 392 00:24:54.680 --> 00:24:57.799 He sold seeds by mail. That's how he got started, 393 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:03.480 and he was very successful, very industrious, and he made 394 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:05.599 a lot of money. But by the time he turned 395 00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:11.799 fifty his health was poor, and so his doctor said, 396 00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.119 you need to get some exercise, you need to get 397 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:18.720 some fresh air. And a minister friend of his, I 398 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:21.880 think it's actually his pastor, said why don't you take 399 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.400 up golf? And I think at first writer said, Noah, 400 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.039 I don't want to do that, But then he ended 401 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:32.079