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Speaker 1: Golf Smarter number four hundred and fifty five.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, your second chance to gain

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insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the

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Golf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction never gets old. Our

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interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations

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like this that are no longer available in any podcast app.

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Speaker 3: When I talked to most of the surviving players on

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both teams, it's just like today, great honor to play

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on the team. They were excited about playing the Ryder Cup.

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Even America, who expected to win. To make the team,

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was this huge honor. Ken Still said, this is two

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years ago. It's a quote that's in the book, and

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I might not having exactly right, but he said, in fact,

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I might be buried in the blue Ryder Cup jacket. No,

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they got along and they said I would play with

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anyone on the team. Frank Beard told me that it

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wasn't at all like today, where there's just all this

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build up and you know the captain and you're ahead

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of time, and it's talk talk talk, and they're trying

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to figure out what players to put together, and there's

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these sessions of psychological stuff and pep talks. None of

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that in sixty nine, just kind of old school. Here

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we go, here's my lineup. I asked Frank Beard. I said,

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what was sneed like as a captain? He said, well,

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it wasn't like today, he said. We might have had

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one meeting and it might have lasted five minutes.

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Speaker 1: Nineteen sixty nine Ryder Cup Finish that Shocked the World

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with author Neil Sagabut. This is Golf Smarter. Welcome back

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to the Golf Smarter Podcast. Neil, it's good to be

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with you, Fred, it's good to be with you. It's

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good to be here. It's very good to be here.

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I'll give you more details on that in a minute.

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Before we get started, though, I want to remind everyone

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of the last time you were on the show, episode

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three fifty three and three fiftyfty four, for your great

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book on the nineteen fifty five US Open.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. It seems so long ago, but I

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guess it was only a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well it was for it came out just

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in time for the twenty twelve US Open that was

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played in San Francisco.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. At the Olympic Club, and I think

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that's the fifth time that they played the Open there,

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and the first time, of course, was in fifty five

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when Jack Fleck upset Ben Hogan and one of the

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greatest upsets in the history of the game.

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Speaker 1: And that's what prompted your book, The Longest Shut, Right,

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that's right, and that book is still available on our

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website in our Golfers mart Congratulations. It's gotten great praise

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because it was a really entertaining and timely story. And

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that's what we're going to talk about today because this

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weekend we've got the Ryder Cup happening, and you've gone

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back in history once again to fly shout a story

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that may not have been a big story at the time,

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but the nineteen sixty nine Ryder Cup, what you call

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the Draw in the Dunes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think anybody it was an unexpected week

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in nineteen sixty nine. This Ryder Cup was not what

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it is today. It had all the elements really that

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it has today, playing for your country, playing match play,

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playing with your teammates, and for a captain, but it

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had been pretty one sided up until that point. In

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America was winning a lot and then we had these

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nineteen sixty nine matches which when I looked into this

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and also even based on what else I've read, this

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was one of the best Ryder Cups ever played. It

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was and it's known. What people know it for is

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the ending, of course, and that's what caught my eye

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when I was thinking about writing another book, that famous

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ending with Nicholas, Jack Nicholas and Tony Jaqueline on the

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final green.

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Speaker 1: But no spoiler alerts, don't give out the final ending.

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We're going to get there, okay, but go ahead.

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Speaker 3: It was a great Ryder Cup and it was a

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surprise to the American team that went over there. It

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was again a different era. It was a great Britain

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team back then and not a European team. But it

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was a thrilling week and it had everything that you

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could want in a Ryder Cup that would make it

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exciting and great and suspenseful. There was and you know,

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there was some acrimony, so it was quite a dramatic

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week there at Royal Birkdale.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so let me let me tell you my

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story about reading your book. I just got back from

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a week vacation. I was going down to Mexico for

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a week and was going to read the book while

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I was there, you know, lay on the beach and

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read a book. How perfect can life be? And so

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I started reading it, and I started getting into the

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background of Tony Jacqueline and how you set up who

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he was and how he became, you know, one of

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the first British players to really make have an impact

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in the United States. I was really enjoying it, and

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I was just starting to get into nineteen sixty nine.

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And I also love the way you incorporate world history

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as place markers to what was going on, to all

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your stories. And then just as I was about to

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get to the Ryder Cup, Hurricane O'Dell hit Cabo San Lucas,

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which was where I was, and we were right in

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the heart of it, and we got stranded. I am

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a I'm a refugee of heran odeal. It was an

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amazing and terrifying event and it took us three days.

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We didn't get out until Wednesday. The hurricane was Sunday night,

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and so I didn't get to finish the book. So

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it's up to you, my friend, to tell me the

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entire story. I want to hear it now.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, Fred I have to say, I'm

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just glad you're you're back at home and that we're

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having this conversation. Thank you, Thank you and your wife

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are safe and you weren't injured, right.

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Speaker 1: No, Luckily none of the windows in the room we

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were staying and imploded like the rest of the resort.

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The resort that we were staying at was pretty much destroyed.

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I would be very surprised if they're open again for

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the Christmas rush, and they were, they were. There were

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people telling us. I talked to a couple of hotel managers.

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They were telling us that it could be three weeks

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to a month before they get any electricity, and there

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was no water, there was no sewage, and the sewage

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was starting to back up in the street, and there

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was looting and rioting and martial law was set. It

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got ugly really fast, but we luckily had each other

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and didn't get injured and were able to make it

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through it. And because both of us worked in media

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in the San Francisco area for a long time, we

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still have a lot of friends who are in it.

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And as we got off the plane in San Francisco,

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there was a news crew waiting for us. So luckily

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they knew that I would be the guy who has

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a lot of video and photos of what happened, and

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so I will post there's a news story from a

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local TV station. There's a news story, and I'll put

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it on our website as well to show our adventure,

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if that's what you want to call it.

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Speaker 3: That was that was quite an adventure. And actually I

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saw it right before we started talking today, and I

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was just sort of a gast and and and then

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I saw your email that said safely returned from Mexico,

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and I was so glad to hear that.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Was that I know we're going to talk about this book,

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but was that was that the most terrifying experience of

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your life?

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Speaker 1: Wow? How crazy is this that I have to think

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about it. A couple of years ago, my wife was

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a victim of a car accident. She was a pedestrian

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hit by a car. And that that may have been

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one of the more challenging things in my life because,

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you know, we later learned after it was all over

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and she made it and stuff, we later learned how

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close she was to not make it. But as something

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we experienced together, it was. It was really frightening. It

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was There were definitely thoughts crossing my mind that may

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not make it back to the United States. Definitely that

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thought crossed my mind. And I think it would have

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been much worse if any of the windows imploded in

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our place. They actually the first room we were in,

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we were right on top of the beach. It was

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on the fifth floor of a sixth story resort, and

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we literally were thirty yards from the waves breaking. And

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they at three o'clock on Sunday afternoon. We arrived Saturday night,

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and by three o'clock Sunday afternoon, they had moved us

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to a different room in the complex because they said

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it was safe. And we're like, we didn't even know

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this was coming. We thought there was going to be

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rain on Sunday night. That was the forecast, that was

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going to be rain, And so we moved into a

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different room and we later went back and you saw

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on the video, you saw how we went back into

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that room and it was there was glass all over

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and it wasn't like tempered glass. It was just you know,

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little shards, I mean little pieces of glass. It was

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shards of glass. And there was one person from our

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hotel who got very bloodied because the glass hit him,

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and his wife broke her arm. But if the glass

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would have broken in our room, I think we would

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have freaked out a bit more than we actually did.

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But the sounds of it were incredible. We had one

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hundred and thirty five mile an hour sustained winds and

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one hundred and fifty mile an hour gusts, and a

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lot of the construction there in that area they used

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the Spanish tile roofing, and the tiles were flying everywhere,

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and they were crashing onto cars, and it sounded like,

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you know, bottles breaking NonStop. And then at about and

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I'm from California, I'll give me an earthquake any day. Right,

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it's a beautiful day. Whoops, the ground is shaking. Okay,

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it's over, and it's still a beautiful day. The anticipation,

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they said it's coming, So the anticipation for hours drove

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us crazy, and then the hours of the hurricane terrified us.

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And then at midnight it got quiet and it was

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very calm, and then at twelve thirty it picked up again.

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So clearly the eye of the hurricane went directly over us.

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So yeah, I answer your question. It was pretty terrifying.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't even imagine it. I know friends who've

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been through a hurricane, but I just can't. I wouldn't

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want to go through that. I'm sorry you've been through it.

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I'm glad. I'm glad you're okay in.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to go through it again. I've

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been in Atlanta once and in Indianapolis once when Tornado

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Watch was happy and we had to you know, in Indianapolis,

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we had to evacuate into a bunker underground and that

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made me a little bit crazy, but nothing happened. And

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you know, a tornado, you can see the path of

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a tornado when you know when it does its destruction,

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but houses may get you know, run right over, but

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the houses on the sides of it don't have as

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that kind of damage. An earthquake most of the time

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on earthquakes, especially in northern California that's kind of built

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for earthquakes that you know, they're prepared for it. You

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have isolated instances. When we were in the nineteen eighty

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nine earthquake, we were actually a Candlestick park at the

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World Series, and when that occurred, we had I think

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there were three major areas of destruction during that earthquake,

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and that was the Bay Bridge we had just been

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on a half hour earlier, the Oakland area, the freeway

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that had collapsed, the MacArthur Freeway that collapsed, which we

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drove by that night and saw. And in the Marina

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district in San Francisco the ball of fire, the fires

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that were in downtown and we drove by those that

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night as we were leaving the ballpark. But here with

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the hurricane, it was everywhere. You didn't miss anything, and

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it went right. It surprised them. They thought it was

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going to go west and stay off land, but it

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came right up the middle of the Baja Peninsula and

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went up through La Pause. So there was a tremendous

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amount of destruction. At this point, I understand they only

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have five confirmed deaths, which is really remarkable, but a

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lot of injury and the rioting and the looting that

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took place and continued to grow until they had to

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declare martial law on Wednesday.

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Speaker 3: Incredible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but enough of that. I'm safe, I'm here

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and it's time for golf. Thank goodness, I get to

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do this again. I have this to do, so let's

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talk about your book Please Draw in the Dunes, the

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nineteen sixty nine Ryder Cup and the finish that shocked

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the world. So I'm going to just sit back and

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I want you to take it from the top and

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tell me, set up the story, and then give it

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to me.

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Speaker 3: Please well without giving away the ending right off the bat.

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That was what caught my eye, and that was where

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I started looking into this, and I thought, why did

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that matter so much? Why that was that such a

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big deal, Why is it so well remembered, and why

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do we still see clips of it? And we'll probably

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see clips of it this week during the Ryder coverage

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of Nicholas and Jacqueline on that Final Green. And so

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when I started researching this topic, I discovered what journalists

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called at that time the greatest Ryder Cup that had

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ever been played. And I think it's near the top

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of a lot of people's list even today. It was.

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In some ways it resembles my first book in that

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you have a heavy underdog, the Great Britain team, and

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you have the Americans who have just been owning them

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ever since the early thirties. Great Britain's won once they

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won in nineteen fifty seven over there, and in the

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Ryder Cup that precedes this nineteen sixty nine Ryder Cup.

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I go into that and you've probably read that chapter.

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It's the second chapter. It's called Champions. I thought it

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was important to set up the story, not only give

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the context of the era, but talk about what happened

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in sixty seven at Houston. And what happened was America

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by fifteen points, largest march in the history of the

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Ryder Cup. Ben Hogan was captain of the American side.

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And this is without Jack Nicholas. They didn't even have

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Nicholas on the team. Now, they had a lot of

268
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other great players like Billy Casper and Arnold Palmer So.

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And sixty seven was also this young man named Tony

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Jacklin's first Ryder Cup as well, and he had a

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pretty good debut, even though his side got whipped pretty handily.

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So in the early part of the story, I set

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up the what golf is like in this era, what

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it's like in America, what it's like in Great Britain.

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And now you know, we see we see European players

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in America every week they play on the PGA Tour.

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There are really no barriers to them other than their

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ability to play. But back then it was still very separate.

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And as you mentioned early on, Tony Jacqueline was one

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of the few players from Great Britain that played on

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the American Tour, and it wasn't really a very welcoming

282
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tour in those days. It wasn't really set up for

283
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these foreign guys to come over and play. But Jacqueline

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earned his way onto the tour, and this particular story

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drawing the Dunes also chronicles his rise in golf. That

286
00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:34,759
year he won the British Open in July, the first

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grit to win the British Open in eighteen years. So

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he's the star of his team heading into Royal Birkdale,

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one of the twelve men and Nicholas. Interestingly, and this

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has been a topic for a lot of conversation I've

291
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been having since the book has come out, is playing

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his first Ryder Cup even though he's a seven year

293
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veteranan tour and nine eleven teammates are also playing their

294
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first one. So you have a bunch of rookies and

295
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the reason for that is the PGA of America back

296
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in that day had a stipulation that you had to

297
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be a PGA professional a member for five years before

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you were eligible to play on the Ryder Cup team.

299
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So Jack barely missed in sixty seven. And now he's

300
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twenty nine years old, He's won seven majors at this

301
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stage in his career, not quite thirty wins on tour,

302
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and he's playing in his first as are ten of

303
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his teammates. And you have five rookies on the Great

304
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Britain team. Just for the I know you've got great

305
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golf fans on your show who really get into this stuff. Red,

306
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,599
I'm probably going into a little bit more detail than

307
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I do on several of my interviews, But the way

308
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the teams were determined in nineteen sixty nine, America was

309
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determined entirely on a points system, so the top twelve

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players in the point standings made the team. The captain

311
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was Sam Snead. People recognize that name. Sam had no picks,

312
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,319
and I'm sure it was of no concern at all

313
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to him because America always won. You know, I think

314
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,440
they probably felt like, whether they said it out loud

315
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or not, that they could go over there WITHINNY twelve

316
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and win.

317
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Speaker 1: And the press treated it that way as well, right.

318
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Speaker 3: It was almost a non event over here because you know,

319
00:19:52,079 --> 00:19:55,680
back in that day it was probably seen more as

320
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an exhibition from the American side of things, because, as

321
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,200
I said earlier, it had all these great elements and

322
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,880
all this great potential, and it was pretty pretty neat

323
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and compelling when it started. But what it lacked was competition,

324
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:17,079
competitive matches at being close, at being exciting. That was missing. So,

325
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,640
you know, there's so many things going on in nineteen

326
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,480
sixty nine, and it's a little bit there are these

327
00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:29,200
little cultural things I put in there to remind people

328
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,559
of what was going on. Then the Vietnam War, Richard

329
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:39,920
Nixon entering the White House, the moon landing with Neil Armstrong.

330
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Speaker 1: Making a comment about golf when he was on the moon.

331
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Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I found that

332
00:20:46,599 --> 00:20:50,000
in Golf Illustrat, which is a British was a British

333
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,640
weekly golf magazine. In fact, it's still around.

334
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Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was a British publication.

335
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, And in doing my research, I can just tell

336
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,599
your audience too that a lot of it came from

337
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,440
the other side of the pond because it just wasn't

338
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,440
covered as heavily over here. It was probably relegated more

339
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,480
to the back pages of the sports page. Now it

340
00:21:15,559 --> 00:21:20,039
was covered. There were New York Times stories, there were

341
00:21:20,079 --> 00:21:24,559
some Golf magazine stories, but it was very heavily covered

342
00:21:24,559 --> 00:21:26,799
in Great Britain, where they really loved their golf and

343
00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:30,559
they had high hopes for their boys, even though they lost.

344
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,079
You know, in America that September, you're in the middle

345
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of a baseball pennant race and the Chicago Cubs are

346
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,359
looking like they're going to win the Pennant, but they don't.

347
00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:47,920
And people who are baseball fans have heard this before

348
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,119
with the Cubs.

349
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Speaker 1: Yeah, a couple of times.

350
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that was the year of the Miracle Mets,

351
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,400
and some people who were around will remember that when

352
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,680
they surprise everyone they won the Pennant and then they

353
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,759
beat the Baltimore Orioles in the World Series.

354
00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:08,319
Speaker 1: So you know, Tom Seaver exactly.

355
00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:14,599
Speaker 3: So it's so many things happened that year. But as

356
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,960
it turned out, it did end up being a pivotal

357
00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:23,400
year in the Ryder Cup because when they got to Burkedale,

358
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:30,079
they had these great exciting matches. The British guys played

359
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,960
really well and they had a very I don't know

360
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,200
if you've gotten to this part yet, Fred, but their

361
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,640
captain was a Scott named Eric Brown, very fiery, competitive,

362
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,559
win it all costs mentality sort of guy, and he

363
00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:52,839
had been a Ryder Cup player and it actually won

364
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,000
matches in an arrow when his side usually was losing.

365
00:22:57,799 --> 00:23:00,720
He was undefeated in singles, which was kind of an

366
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,279
anomaly for guys on his side, and he brought a

367
00:23:04,319 --> 00:23:11,119
different attitude to the matches. He didn't bow to the Americans.

368
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,000
He was like, come on, guys, we're gonna we can

369
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,240
We can play with these guys, we can beat them.

370
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And that was his attitude. And then you've got kind

371
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:28,440
of krusty old school Sam Snead who doesn't believe in

372
00:23:28,519 --> 00:23:33,400
things like conceiting putts, which sets up our ending nicely,

373
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and who is as captain twice before. He's been a

374
00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:41,319
captain twice before, and he's making his eighth appearance in

375
00:23:41,319 --> 00:23:45,200
the Ryder Cup. Never lost, never been on a losing team,

376
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:51,039
and there's never been a tie. So uh, A lot

377
00:23:51,079 --> 00:24:01,000
of really interesting things happened that week at Royal Birkdale.

378
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,599
Speaker 1: If I can take you back a moment, give me

379
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,519
the history of how the ryder Cup began, well.

380
00:24:08,319 --> 00:24:12,759
Speaker 3: I'll give you the you know, I've got that detail

381
00:24:12,799 --> 00:24:14,720
in the book because I wanted to give readers who

382
00:24:14,759 --> 00:24:16,599
aren't that familiar with it some background.

383
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought that was so interesting.

384
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,799
Speaker 3: Now I want readers to know. I put that backstory

385
00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:26,240
in there, but I don't think it'll bog them down.

386
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,319
It's in the first chapter, and we peel back to

387
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,720
the beginning and I cover that the origins of it

388
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,119
in about seven pages, and I bring it back forward

389
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,640
to nineteen sixty eight sixty nine, which is where the

390
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,480
book starts, but it started. It got its name ryder

391
00:24:47,519 --> 00:24:54,599
Cup from Samuel Ryder, who was an English seeds tycoon.

392
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,799
He sold seeds by mail. That's how he got started,

393
00:24:57,799 --> 00:25:03,480
and he was very successful, very industrious, and he made

394
00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:05,599
a lot of money. But by the time he turned

395
00:25:05,599 --> 00:25:11,799
fifty his health was poor, and so his doctor said,

396
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,119
you need to get some exercise, you need to get

397
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,720
some fresh air. And a minister friend of his, I

398
00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:21,880
think it's actually his pastor, said why don't you take

399
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,400
up golf? And I think at first writer said, Noah,

400
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,039
I don't want to do that, But then he ended

401
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:32,079
up taking up golf and he got hooked in a hurry,

402
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,039
and he just couldn't play enough golf.

403
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: I know it well.

404
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 3: And here's what's amazing, Fred, and you know it because

405
00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:44,880
you've read this. The man's fifty years old. He takes

406
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,960
up the game. He hires this fellow named Abe Mitchell,

407
00:25:49,279 --> 00:25:52,640
who's he hired someone else first, but he ended up

408
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,160
hiring this fellow named Abe Mitchell, a top player over there,

409
00:25:56,759 --> 00:25:59,759
a professional, and I think he pays him something like

410
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,680
a thousand pounds a year to be his personal instructor.

411
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,440
He plays and plays and plays. He plays every day,

412
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,400
I think except Sunday or practices in his you know,

413
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,039
at his state. And in a year he's a six

414
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:21,240
handicap and he starts at fifty. Now that's pretty incredible. Well,

415
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:29,359
anyway rider starts, he hasn't this acute interest in golf,

416
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,920
and somehow he ends up at these international matches, these

417
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,200
informal matches where when the Americans come over to play

418
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,799
in the Open Championship, which we call the British Open,

419
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,599
they go out and play some rounds with some of

420
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,519
the British players, and they have these sort of informal matches,

421
00:26:45,519 --> 00:26:48,839
but they have this international flavor. These guys that get

422
00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:53,359
together to play only once a year. And writer observed

423
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,839
this and said, this is really a great thing, that

424
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,440
it'd be good if there was some sort of you know,

425
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,480
that this could be on a regular base and there

426
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,759
could be, you know, something more official structure to it.

427
00:27:04,839 --> 00:27:08,440
And this is what ended up being becoming the Ryder Cup.

428
00:27:08,759 --> 00:27:11,960
And it's called the Ryder Cup because he donated the trophy.

429
00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: And that was all he donated, was a trophy.

430
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,799
Speaker 3: He donated the trophy. But he also I think in

431
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,880
the early stages, I think he might have and it's

432
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,799
in my book, so I need to read my own book,

433
00:27:23,839 --> 00:27:26,640
but I think he might have donated some money to

434
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,400
help the team get to America for the first official

435
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,759
Ryder Cup, which was in nineteen twenty seven. But just

436
00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:34,799
to kind of tie a bow on this thing with

437
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,000
his instructor, the man who sits atop the Ryder Cup

438
00:27:39,039 --> 00:27:46,559
trophy is Abe Mitchell, his instructor that he hired, and

439
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,960
Abe Mitchell was really touched that he's on the trophy.

440
00:27:52,079 --> 00:27:54,200
He didn't really feel that he was deserved as a

441
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,119
griping entner for it. But so it's all start in

442
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:02,119
twenty seven and the officials there's you know, there was

443
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,559
kind of this other sort of false start in the

444
00:28:05,599 --> 00:28:09,319
early twenties, but the official start, if you look back

445
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,720
at the history, is nineteen twenty seven, and they trade

446
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,319
the first four, each team winning on their home soil,

447
00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:20,160
and then that's when it turns into this one sided

448
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:25,680
affair and America goes on a rampage and wins twelve

449
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,839
of thirteen heading into the sixty nine Ryder Cup.

450
00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:31,799
Speaker 1: And what was the difference. Why did the American team

451
00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:33,400
dominate so well.

452
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,519
Speaker 3: You know, I'm I think they were just better players.

453
00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:45,039
I do. I think golf really caught on in America.

454
00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:53,720
You had more people, the game really flourished, and I

455
00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:57,279
have to think that they were just better. But I

456
00:28:57,319 --> 00:29:01,279
don't know for sure, but that's certainly the case as

457
00:29:01,359 --> 00:29:05,519
we approached nineteen sixty nine, and you look at the

458
00:29:05,519 --> 00:29:10,319
fifties and the sixties, it's very clear that they were

459
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,680
better players and they had I think they had better competition,

460
00:29:16,359 --> 00:29:20,680
they had a better tour. There were all kinds of

461
00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:23,200
theories and I go into this too in the book

462
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,279
and the lead up to the sixty nine Ryder Cup,

463
00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:29,160
and there were a lot of theories about why the

464
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,519
British players were not that competitive with the American players.

465
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,599
Speaker 1: And some of it was it style of play. I mean,

466
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:42,480
obviously the Parkland courses versus you know, the Why am

467
00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:46,799
I blanking on because my brain's Fried Links Links, Thank

468
00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:49,880
you Links Golf. Yeah, park Yeah, that was Link's style.

469
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,119
Speaker 3: No, that's very perceptive, Fred. That was one of the reasons.

470
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,160
And I got to spend time with Tony Jacqueline, which

471
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,039
was a lot of fun.

472
00:29:58,119 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 4: Wow.

473
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:04,039
Speaker 3: He understood the history of this because well he's he

474
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,519
was born just after World War Two and he grew

475
00:30:06,599 --> 00:30:09,319
up watching these great British players and he idolized them.

476
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:13,559
But he said, he told me, he said, when he

477
00:30:13,599 --> 00:30:17,119
came to play the American Tour, he was trying to

478
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:24,160
change his swing technique. For one thing. The courses are

479
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:29,799
different here, but you also have you can play, you

480
00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:32,920
can play all year round somewhere in America. The season

481
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,599
is short over in the United Kingdom and Great Britain,

482
00:30:36,359 --> 00:30:40,440
and the weather is not as good. And Tony told

483
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:46,640
me that that affected things like swing technique. And at

484
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,000
one point in history, the USGA and the Royal and

485
00:30:51,079 --> 00:30:56,920
Ancient Golf Club, they they adopted a different ball and

486
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,119
I don't know some of your your audience who are

487
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,799
old enough to remember there was a smaller British ball,

488
00:31:05,839 --> 00:31:10,440
and there was a lot of talk about the Americans

489
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,440
being better because they could play They played with a

490
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,759
bigger ball, which was harder to control, and then when

491
00:31:16,799 --> 00:31:19,960
they would switch to the British ball for the Ryder Cup,

492
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,640
they hit it farther, straighter. They were just better. So

493
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,640
there were a lot of theories about why America won

494
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,880
all the time, but I think if you just had

495
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,599
to choose one thing, their players were better.

496
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I have to ask you about I was

497
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,079
so fascinated about the conversation about the ball in the

498
00:31:43,079 --> 00:31:49,119
book because it's not that long ago that they standardized

499
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,160
the ball. I mean it was in the nineteen sixties. Sure,

500
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,240
it's fifty years or whatever it is ago, but still

501
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,480
in the history of golf, it's like there was debate

502
00:31:56,559 --> 00:31:59,359
on the type of ball. You know, things are now

503
00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:04,039
so rich and standard for everything. It just made me

504
00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:10,279
think about all this conversation that is happening today about

505
00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:13,119
how do we get more people to play golf, what

506
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:19,240
things can we introduce, and the conversation the most humorous

507
00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:23,240
and yet has some legs to it to introduce and

508
00:32:23,359 --> 00:32:25,559
bring in new people to the game. Is this concept

509
00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:29,279
of the fifteen inch hole, right, I'm sure you've read

510
00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:32,279
about this, people saying, yeah, sure, fifteen inch hold, it'll

511
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,759
cut strokes, it'll cut down the amount of time, and

512
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,920
more people will succeed and they'll have more fun. And

513
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,079
then I'm reading about a smaller ball and thought, well,

514
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:49,480
why don't they try that? Yeah, I mean they've already

515
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,640
had a smaller ball, it's already been play it was on,

516
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,640
you know, being used in Europe, and maybe that would

517
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,400
be a way. And wouldn't a smaller ball fly farther anyway?

518
00:33:01,279 --> 00:33:03,519
And if they used head A's technology with a little

519
00:33:03,519 --> 00:33:06,680
bit smaller and it wasn't It was not significantly smaller.

520
00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:09,519
Was what six one hundredths of an inch smaller?

521
00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:13,319
Speaker 3: Yeah? It was one point six to two inches in

522
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,640
diameter versus one point six's eight.

523
00:33:15,799 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: Which is the standard for today, right, Yeah, all right,

524
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,880
so that's six one hundreds So it's not that much smaller.

525
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,839
But would that have an impact? Would that be a

526
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,880
successful way to make score scores lower?

527
00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 3: I don't know that that would have enough impact for

528
00:33:33,759 --> 00:33:35,079
your average player.

529
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: Not like a fifteen inch hole would.

530
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,759
Speaker 3: No, no, not at all. And frankly, the balls today,

531
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,000
even with them being bigger, are are a lot better

532
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:55,359
I think, and a lot less susceptible to weather conditions

533
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,200
than back in the old days when you had those

534
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:59,960
blott of balls and wound balls.

535
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: But the scores are not that much different.

536
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,079
Speaker 3: No, that isn't that interesting. And the equipment's better. M hm.

537
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,239
So that must say something about us.

538
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: Ah, I'm not going there.

539
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I meant I met the universal US, all

540
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:21,400
the scolars.

541
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:30,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we don't. We don't have our lives don't

542
00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:32,599
allow us to practice as much as we'd like. And

543
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:38,519
some players, but most players are not getting better, which

544
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:41,800
is kind of crazy because we have all this technology

545
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,639
behind us, and we have all this mental game which

546
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:48,760
didn't exist in the sixties. You know, swing coaches were

547
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:55,280
about it. Getting back to your story, what was the

548
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,239
relationship back to nineteen sixty nine of the US team

549
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,320
members because you had successful players and you had a coach,

550
00:35:03,639 --> 00:35:05,960
you know, the one who is cold sneed coaching the team,

551
00:35:06,039 --> 00:35:08,360
who you know, refused to lose and wanted to get

552
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,480
it done his way. Were there any animosity, contention, competition

553
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,159
among the American teammates that created any issues.

554
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 3: Not that they told me later. Uh. The only the

555
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:30,000
only real controversy was what came at the end. And

556
00:35:31,639 --> 00:35:35,280
there were several players on the team that were disappointed

557
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,079
because they felt like Tony had a missible putt, he

558
00:35:41,159 --> 00:35:43,119
probably would have made it. He would tell, are you.

559
00:35:43,159 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: Giving away the ending now we haven't even gotten into

560
00:35:45,519 --> 00:35:46,079
the tournament?

561
00:35:46,639 --> 00:35:50,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, but there wasn't. Yeah. When I talked to

562
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,599
the players, and I talked to most of the surviving

563
00:35:53,639 --> 00:35:59,679
players on both teams, they can just it's just like today,

564
00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:03,519
great honor to play on the team. They were excited

565
00:36:03,559 --> 00:36:07,519
about playing the Ryder Cup. Even America, who expected to win.

566
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,880
To make the team, was this huge honor. Ken still

567
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,679
said it was the biggest honor in his life. And

568
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,840
he said, he told me this is two years ago.

569
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:21,719
It's a quote that's in the book, and I might

570
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,599
not be having exactly right, but he said, in fact,

571
00:36:24,639 --> 00:36:27,679
I might be buried in the blue Ryder Cup jacket.

572
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,119
They know they got along, and they said most of

573
00:36:33,159 --> 00:36:37,119
them said I would play with you know, anyone on

574
00:36:37,159 --> 00:36:42,000
the team. Frank Beard told me that it's not it

575
00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:46,320
wasn't at all like today where there's just all this

576
00:36:46,679 --> 00:36:48,840
build up and you know, the captain of year ahead

577
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,480
of time, and it's talk talk talk, and they're trying

578
00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:53,760
to figure out what players to put together, and there's

579
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:59,920
these sessions of you know whatever, psychological stuff and pep talks.

580
00:37:00,519 --> 00:37:03,800
None of that in sixty nine just kind of old

581
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,519
school let's go, you know, here we go, here's my lineup.

582
00:37:08,599 --> 00:37:11,360
I asked Frank Beard, I said, what was Sneed like

583
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,920
as a captain. He said, well, it wasn't like today.

584
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,800
He said, we might have had one meeting and it

585
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,159
might have lasted five minutes. He said he wanted to

586
00:37:21,199 --> 00:37:23,760
know one thing, and he said he had all of

587
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,719
us write down on a piece of paper if there

588
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,280
was someone on the team we didn't want to play with, so.

589
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: He kept it anonymous.

590
00:37:33,119 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there wasn't. So there wasn't a lot of

591
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,079
Now on the other side, Eric Brown approached a little

592
00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:42,320
bit differently, but Sam Snead was just sort of you know,

593
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,719
is a different era. I think men related differently. They

594
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,960
went about their business differently, and it was like we're

595
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:55,800
going to go over there and we're going to play,

596
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,559
and there wasn't a lot of handholding, you know, it

597
00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:02,960
was but getting back to your question about how did

598
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,920
the guys get along. I think they got along fine.

599
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,079
I don't know that anybody had a problem with their teammates.

600
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,480
But I do know Frank Beard, who was a really

601
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,400
good player. He was the top. He was a leader

602
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,519
on the money list that year on the American Tour.

603
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:30,000
Very good player. He was intimidated by the whole atmosphere

604
00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:34,960
the Ryder Cup match play playing with a teammate. He

605
00:38:35,079 --> 00:38:40,280
was paired with Billy Casper, who he idolized it was

606
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,119
hard on him and he told me that, And I

607
00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:46,559
loved his transparency and there's some great comments from Frank

608
00:38:46,599 --> 00:38:49,320
Beard about what it was like playing in his first

609
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,480
Ryder Cup. He did not feel comfortable at all. He

610
00:38:53,519 --> 00:39:01,000
played okay, but he told me, he said, not really

611
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,480
feel good about playing with Billy Casper. Because people might

612
00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:10,800
not know this, but at that stage in the sixties,

613
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,079
Casper was winning and was as every bit as good

614
00:39:14,119 --> 00:39:18,840
as anybody else on tour, including Nicholas, including player Palmer,

615
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,920
you name it. Billy Casper was a great player and

616
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:28,119
Beard was ten years younger, and it's like, oh, I've

617
00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:32,159
got to play with Casper in alternate shot. Oh my gosh,

618
00:39:32,519 --> 00:39:34,880
I'm worried about letting this guy down and what he's

619
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,039
going to think of me, and so all of these

620
00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:41,440
things are really interesting. When you talk to these players

621
00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:44,639
who were great players, made a lot of money on

622
00:39:44,679 --> 00:39:49,440
their tours one tournament, how the Ryder Cup affects them

623
00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:51,760
is just really interesting.

624
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,159
Speaker 1: So if everyone was able to get along, well, you know,

625
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,039
I find that that fascinating, going from an a sport that's,

626
00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:03,199
you know, all individuals all the time, to a team

627
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,239
sport and making it work, making the chemistry work, which

628
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,880
they didn't care. It was just like points system, you're

629
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,679
on or you're not. There were no picks. Tell me

630
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,039
who you got to spend time with in the research

631
00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:20,559
of your book. Of the players, who did you get

632
00:40:20,559 --> 00:40:21,079
to interview?

633
00:40:24,199 --> 00:40:28,199
Speaker 3: I really got to interview everybody I would have possibly

634
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,559
hoped to interview, except except Forately Trevino, who was also

635
00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:33,320
on that team.

636
00:40:33,559 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 1: And why not Trevino.

637
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 3: He just declined. I went through his agent and they

638
00:40:42,679 --> 00:40:46,440
he said no. And this was early in the process.

639
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,920
And later on, when I'd interviewed pretty much everybody else,

640
00:40:51,079 --> 00:40:55,559
including Jack Nicholas, which was huge for me, I went

641
00:40:55,599 --> 00:40:59,280
back and I asked again, and I never heard anything.

642
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,880
So that's the only one I really person I really

643
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,000
missed that. That would have been nice to talk to.

644
00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:08,960
But I talked to Nicholas, of course. I talked to

645
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,880
him toward the end. Frank Beard Kin Still, Billy Casper,

646
00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:19,400
Raymond Floyd, who is also a Hall of Famer. That

647
00:41:19,559 --> 00:41:22,639
was his first Ryder Cup and he is a vice

648
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:29,840
captain this year for Tom Watson, Jeane Letler and Tommy Aaron.

649
00:41:31,599 --> 00:41:36,639
So Dan Sykes was on that team. Some of your

650
00:41:36,639 --> 00:41:41,920
audience might remember him. He's deceased, and so was Dave Hill.

651
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,920
And Dave Hill he died a couple of years ago,

652
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,280
maybe two or three years ago. People are going to

653
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,920
they're going to love the stories about Dave Hill in

654
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,760
this book. Dave Hill is quite a character and very

655
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,760
temperamental guy. And there's some things that happen. You haven't

656
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,519
got to them yet in the book yet, Fred, But

657
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,639
in this Ryder Cup you probably have the most acrimonious

658
00:42:06,679 --> 00:42:10,800
match in the history of the Ryder Cup. Really yeah,

659
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:15,400
And I won't go into it, oh, but I can say, well,

660
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:17,719
I don't know how much you want me to give away,

661
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,440
but I can tell you this. There was almost a

662
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,239
fistfight on Friday in a four ball match between and

663
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,480
that's not and I'm not embellishing. It almost came to blows.

664
00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:33,239
There were a series of incidents in this match between

665
00:42:34,199 --> 00:42:37,599
Dave Hill and kin Still for the Americans and Brian

666
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:43,400
Huggett and Bernard Gallaher for Great Britain. Now Huggitt and

667
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,440
Gallaher they're still around. In fact, I don't know about

668
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:53,800
this year, but Bernard Gallaher does commentary for the Ryder

669
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:58,239
Cup over there, and he was a great Ryder Cup captain.

670
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,239
He followed Tony Jacqueline in the eighties and he was

671
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,039
Ryder Cup captain I think three times for his side.

672
00:43:05,159 --> 00:43:09,000
So he was a great player. But in nineteen sixty nine,

673
00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:12,320
he's a twenty year old. He's the youngest man to

674
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,599
ever play in the Ryder Cup in nineteen sixty nine,

675
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,880
and he's almost kind of a rary type figure, although

676
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,920
I wouldn't say he's quite at that level, but he

677
00:43:23,119 --> 00:43:27,920
comes onto the scene in nineteen sixty nine and he's

678
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,039
winning tournaments and he's kind of brash and he's a

679
00:43:31,079 --> 00:43:35,320
really good player. So anyway, you have these four guys.

680
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,840
For as Brian Huggett told me in his interview. He

681
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,320
said he called all of them, including himself, feisty, and

682
00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:49,880
they have quite this match on Friday. All kinds of

683
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,320
things go on. You just you couldn't make it up.

684
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: Were there any of the people that you had the

685
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,000
chance to speak to, Were there any surprises or any

686
00:44:06,039 --> 00:44:08,840
it's the word I'm looking for here, stories that were

687
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:14,239
they conflicted with one another that you needed some more substantiations. Likette,

688
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,039
you're telling me one story and you're telling me a

689
00:44:16,079 --> 00:44:19,920
completely different story.

690
00:44:20,079 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 3: There's always some of that, I think when you do

691
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,239
a historical sure Sure book, and I learned that when

692
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,239
I did the Longest Shot. I think the hardest thing

693
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:35,119
to sort out was this match. I'm sorry to talk

694
00:44:35,159 --> 00:44:39,039
about that people will read about because even to this day,

695
00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:45,840
the players in this four ball match that that that

696
00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:51,159
became a big disagreement. They still don't really agree on

697
00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:57,000
what happened. And so you know, I interviewed both I

698
00:44:57,039 --> 00:45:00,480
interviewed Ken Still, and I couldn't interview Dave Hill, and

699
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,039
I interviewed Brian Hugget and Bernard Gallaher, and I thought,

700
00:45:06,159 --> 00:45:08,920
and then I had the reporting from nineteen sixty nine

701
00:45:09,199 --> 00:45:12,079
of what happened. And I remember when I was writing

702
00:45:12,119 --> 00:45:13,679
that chapter, I was thinking, how am I going to

703
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,000
write this, because there's a part of you that wants

704
00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:20,320
to get to some account that you say, I think

705
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,079
this is what happened, but you don't know. So I

706
00:45:24,199 --> 00:45:28,480
ended up putting it all together and just reporting on

707
00:45:29,559 --> 00:45:31,960
what was reported at the time and what the players

708
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:32,960
said later.

709
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:33,559
Speaker 4: And.

710
00:45:35,199 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 3: It's really it's really interesting. The other thing that you

711
00:45:39,079 --> 00:45:43,519
have going on when you do books like this, and

712
00:45:43,559 --> 00:45:47,599
I had this with Jack Fleck, is you're dealing you

713
00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:52,679
talk to players forty years later and their memories of

714
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:58,039
it don't always coincide with what the reporting was at

715
00:45:58,039 --> 00:46:00,000
the time, and so then you have to figure out

716
00:46:00,119 --> 00:46:06,000
how to write it. Lots of times what happens is

717
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,559
they don't remember. You know, they've played a lot of

718
00:46:10,559 --> 00:46:13,920
golf through the years, and they don't remember but maybe

719
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:19,480
a few things that happened that week. But you'll find

720
00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:24,000
some players who have very vivid memories. Kin still remembered

721
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:26,440
a lot. It was his only Ryder cup and it

722
00:46:26,639 --> 00:46:30,519
was it was one of the big moments in his

723
00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:33,639
whole life. You could just tell from talking to him.

724
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:40,559
So it's interesting and challenging to sort all of that

725
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,079
out when you try to put together your narrative.

726
00:46:44,079 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: Sure. Sure, And that was the only place that there

727
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,840
was like people had different different views of what actually happened.

728
00:46:55,119 --> 00:46:58,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really was. I didn't really run into any

729
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,159
other areas where I thought it's a big problem area.

730
00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:07,840
I was really glad. One of the things about this book,

731
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:12,360
and it's in my author's note at the beginning, and

732
00:47:12,559 --> 00:47:14,679
it's been written up in some of the reviews that

733
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,880
have come out on the book. The Wall Street Journal

734
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,360
reviewed it a week or so ago, congratulations, thank you. Yeah,

735
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:27,239
that was nice, and some other golf magazines and publications

736
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,400
ever reviewed it. And one of the things they pointed out,

737
00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:33,360
because I have this in the book, there was only

738
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:41,239
three minutes of footage that survived. This event was televised

739
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:46,679
by the BBC and it was also on radio, and

740
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,480
after writing the longer shot, which took place in nineteen

741
00:47:49,519 --> 00:47:52,239
fifty five, there was very little film of that, which

742
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,199
was not surprising because TV wasn't golf on TV was

743
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,400
just getting started. When I picked up this story, I thought,

744
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,440
oh boy, I'm going to be able to watch a

745
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,760
lot of this because it was televised. I inquired with

746
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:14,039
the BBC. They pointed me to IMG, the big agency

747
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,880
that represents athletes. They owned the rights to that particular

748
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,760
Ryder Cup. Somehow they acquired the right, so I had

749
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,559
to go through them and try to find any archived

750
00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:29,239
footage of the nineteen sixty nine Ryder Cup matches televised

751
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,960
by the BBC. Well, what I come to find out

752
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:38,320
is there's there are only three minutes, and I was

753
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,760
surprised by that. So I had the challenge again of

754
00:48:43,199 --> 00:48:48,280
putting this together without the benefit of really any television coverage.

755
00:48:48,599 --> 00:48:53,000
But the good thing about it was the three minutes

756
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:58,960
that they have was the ending. And by being able

757
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,599
to watch the ending, which is the climactic moment in

758
00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:06,679
the book, I can really sort of slow things down.

759
00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:08,920
And I picked out a lot of the details that

760
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:14,840
I watched on film to describe what happened. And when

761
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,119
you can see things on film, you can you know

762
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,480
that's true, that's factual. You're not relying on someone's memory,

763
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,119
you know. Jack Nicholas told me he picked his ball

764
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:30,119
out of the cup on the eighteenth hole, which was

765
00:49:30,159 --> 00:49:32,599
the way he remembered it. I mean, that's what players

766
00:49:32,639 --> 00:49:36,440
normally do. When I watched the film. He didn't do that.

767
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,559
He didn't pick his ball up. He sank a five

768
00:49:39,559 --> 00:49:43,519
foot pot and then he instead of reaching over and

769
00:49:43,519 --> 00:49:45,800
picking his ball out of the cup, he reached over

770
00:49:46,039 --> 00:49:49,079
and he reached down and picked up Tony Jaquelin's marker

771
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,719
for that famous concession. And I don't know who got

772
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,800
his ball, But you know, it's nice when you have

773
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,239
some of that because you can actually describe what happened

774
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,639
and know that that's that was factual.

775
00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:07,679
Speaker 1: And had you watched the footage before you got to

776
00:50:07,679 --> 00:50:08,440
do that interview.

777
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 3: I think I had seen that footage, and of course

778
00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:16,639
I didn't try to correct Jack's memory. But in the

779
00:50:16,679 --> 00:50:21,360
cases where I had some other source, you kind of

780
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:28,360
weigh your sources and you have to you have to decide, well,

781
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,559
what do I think really happen here? Or in some

782
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:37,960
cases you just report both versions and let the reader decide.

783
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,599
You know, the readers are smart, and you give them

784
00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:44,360
you just give them enough and they can draw their

785
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,599
own conclusions from situations.

786
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: All right, So let's go back now and go over

787
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:52,679
the matches, not each individual match, but each day of

788
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:54,880
what happened and how it got to the point where

789
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,880
it was that close and had that dramatic of an ending.

790
00:51:00,559 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 3: Well, I'll I'll just quickly tell the format. It was

791
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,320
the same as today. You started with foursomes on the

792
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,559
first day, which is alternate shot. I think your audience

793
00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:16,440
will know what that is. The second day was four

794
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,239
ball matches, which is better ball, best ball, and the

795
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,119
last day was single So that is just like it

796
00:51:23,199 --> 00:51:25,960
is today. This was the first Ryder Cup to have

797
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,760
twelve man teams. We have twelve man teams today, but

798
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,239
in nineteen sixty nine was the first year of twelve

799
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,320
man teams. Before that, they had ten man teams. But

800
00:51:36,519 --> 00:51:39,760
what was different about nineteen sixty nine is when people

801
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:44,119
read the score of that match. Of course it ended

802
00:51:44,159 --> 00:51:46,280
in a tie. That's why it's called drawing the dones.

803
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,079
It was the first time in the history of Ryder

804
00:51:48,119 --> 00:51:51,400
Cup the score was sixteen to sixteen, and that'll strike

805
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:53,519
people as a little love. They'll say, well, wait a minute,

806
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,559
thirty two points. I thought the Ryder Cup is twenty

807
00:51:56,559 --> 00:52:02,840
eight points and it is now. In sixty nine, they

808
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,519
had two sets of singles on the final day, the

809
00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:10,800
morning session in the afternoon session. Eight matches in the morning,

810
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,280
eight in the afternoon. So you had thirty two points

811
00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:20,239
in that day instead of twenty eight. What happened just

812
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:26,559
as this fiery Great Britain captain Eric Brown had hoped for.

813
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:32,880
He exhorted his players. He knew that in the past

814
00:52:33,199 --> 00:52:36,119
they'd always gotten behind and he wanted to get out

815
00:52:36,199 --> 00:52:40,320
fast every morning. Well, this is what happened. The first day.

816
00:52:41,679 --> 00:52:44,280
Great Britain got out in the first session. They were

817
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,760
after the end of the first session of the morning.

818
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:52,599
Speaker 4: They were ahead, I think three and a half to

819
00:52:52,679 --> 00:52:55,480
a half point and he was just he could he

820
00:52:55,639 --> 00:52:56,960
was beside himself with joy.

821
00:52:57,079 --> 00:53:01,039
Speaker 3: They were way out ahead, in front, and so this

822
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,480
established really the pattern for the week. Great Britain got

823
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,280
out ahead. In the afternoon, the Americans were playing catchup,

824
00:53:10,119 --> 00:53:15,719
and in the afternoon of foursomes, America came back and

825
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:21,840
they at the end of the first day it was

826
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,119
four and a half to three and a half. The

827
00:53:25,159 --> 00:53:30,039
Americans won the second fourth session on Thursday. They go

828
00:53:30,119 --> 00:53:37,039
out on Friday and again Great Britain wins that session

829
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,559
two and a half to one and a half and

830
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:45,159
they're ahead seven to five. But then in the afternoon

831
00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:50,400
four balls, America wins that session three to one. So

832
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,760
we go into the final day and it's all tied

833
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:59,400
up eight to eight and America's kind of got the

834
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,559
pressure on it now. It's like these guys are they

835
00:54:03,599 --> 00:54:08,679
might beat us. They're playing really well. You have more

836
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,199
matches that are going to the final hole, probably than

837
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,519
ever in the history of the Ryder Cup, and I

838
00:54:13,559 --> 00:54:16,000
think in total there were seventeen of the thirty two

839
00:54:16,119 --> 00:54:18,960
that went to the final hole, in five that finished

840
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:23,039
on the seventeenth. So these are really close tense matches.

841
00:54:24,119 --> 00:54:27,719
The last day you have the singles and in the morning,

842
00:54:28,519 --> 00:54:33,800
just like the previous days, Great Britain wins the morning

843
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:41,000
session five to three. They're head thirteen to eleven. The

844
00:54:41,039 --> 00:54:45,320
galleries now are really they're really fired up because they

845
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,639
think we can win the Cup. You go into the

846
00:54:49,679 --> 00:54:52,880
afternoon and they need three and a half out of

847
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,400
a possible eight points to take back the Cup for

848
00:54:56,519 --> 00:55:00,000
the first time since nineteen fifty seven and for only

849
00:55:00,159 --> 00:55:04,920
the second time since the Great Depression. America's backs are

850
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:09,840
to the wall and you have Tony Jacqueline and Jack

851
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,559
Nicholas playing the anchor match, and this is both in

852
00:55:13,599 --> 00:55:17,599
the morning session and the afternoon session. In the morning session,

853
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:24,960
Jacqueline beats him four and three. Jacqueline is the best

854
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:30,039
player at Royal Birkdale. This week. Jack Nicholas misses a

855
00:55:30,079 --> 00:55:33,159
bunch of short puts in that morning session, not really

856
00:55:33,199 --> 00:55:36,119
at the top of his game, so they anchor the

857
00:55:36,159 --> 00:55:41,519
match the second session as well, and it comes down

858
00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:45,519
to their match, and it comes down to the final hole.

859
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:51,760
Everything is tied and their match is tied. So it

860
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:55,039
comes down to the very very end.

861
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:05,039
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah.

862
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 3: So we know what happens. I mean, people who pick

863
00:56:06,559 --> 00:56:09,679
up this book, who've heard about this, they know that

864
00:56:10,679 --> 00:56:14,079
something happened on this final green. It's known as the Concession.

865
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,960
It's a famous moment in golf and sports, this great

866
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:23,039
act of sportsmanship. So the context for that. Now we

867
00:56:23,119 --> 00:56:25,800
have some of the context for that. These close matches,

868
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,239
some acrimony.

869
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:29,679
Speaker 4: We have.

870
00:56:30,079 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 3: I haven't really talked much about this, but it was

871
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,559
for the Americans. They felt like the galleries at time

872
00:56:35,599 --> 00:56:38,760
were hostile. It's been a tough it's been a tough week.

873
00:56:39,519 --> 00:56:42,800
Now you have Necklace and Jacqueline coming down the final fairway,

874
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:47,239
you have both teams gathered around the green and their captains,

875
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:52,159
and you have ten thousand spectators. It's the winds blowing

876
00:56:52,159 --> 00:56:55,079
and it's spitting rain, and it's about six o'clock in

877
00:56:55,119 --> 00:57:00,320
the evening at Royal Birkdale after this long week, and

878
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,400
they hit their it's a par five hole. It plays

879
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:06,679
down when easily easily reachable in two and they hit

880
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:12,199
their approach shots up on the green. Jacqueline his farther away.

881
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:14,440
He puts first. He has about a thirty footer for

882
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:20,800
an eagle, and he rolls it up. It's tracking right

883
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,119
for the hole and it stops about two feet short.

884
00:57:23,239 --> 00:57:27,440
He marks his ball. Jack's got about a twenty footer

885
00:57:28,679 --> 00:57:31,119
and his putt now is to win the Ryder Cup.

886
00:57:31,199 --> 00:57:36,599
It's also for an eagle. Jack is a very deliberate player,

887
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,480
as some people will remember, and he took his time

888
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,639
and it's very tense. People around the green are just

889
00:57:43,679 --> 00:57:47,480
waiting for Jack to hit this pot. He hits it,

890
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,760
and this is part of it that what's on film.

891
00:57:52,519 --> 00:57:57,519
It misses, and unlike Jack, he hit it pretty hard

892
00:57:57,599 --> 00:58:02,400
and it rolls almost five feet by the hole, so.

893
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: He's still away. He's still hitting, still away.

894
00:58:05,519 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 3: Now. When I'm in Jack Nicholas's office interviewing him, I

895
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:13,559
asked him about that pot. I said, Jack, you knocked

896
00:58:13,559 --> 00:58:15,880
that five feet by the hole. I said, what happened

897
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,719
on that putt? Do you remember anything? You know where

898
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,119
did you see Tony come up short and you just

899
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:22,760
you were trying to make it and you hit it

900
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,480
too hard. And he kind of laughed and he said

901
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:29,719
it was probably just stupidity. He said, you don't want

902
00:58:29,719 --> 00:58:33,920
to leave a putt like that for the whole The

903
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:39,079
whole match is hanging on a putt like that. Now

904
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,840
he's missed, He's missed the number of putts shorter than

905
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:47,400
that in the morning match. So Jack is really taking

906
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,239
his time looking this one over, and people in the

907
00:58:50,239 --> 00:58:56,480
gallery are one person faints. That's how nerve wracking it was.

908
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,840
So then we have the big Jack grinds over this

909
00:59:03,039 --> 00:59:08,320
pot and he finally gets over it, and you know,

910
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,920
like the Golden Bear did when he needed one, he

911
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:17,000
knocked it in. And then in that moment he reached

912
00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:22,039
down and he processed all this sort of the I

913
00:59:22,079 --> 00:59:25,599
guess what was happening and what he realized what was

914
00:59:25,639 --> 00:59:29,840
at stake, the fact that Jacqueline's putt was for a tie,

915
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:33,920
not a win, and the fact that with a tie,

916
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:38,599
America retains the cup, and the fact that Tony Jacqueline

917
00:59:38,639 --> 00:59:41,480
was a new British Open champion and the hero over there,

918
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,079
and if he somehow didn't get that two foot or in,

919
00:59:46,119 --> 00:59:49,360
as Jack has said, it might kill his career. Jack

920
00:59:50,079 --> 00:59:52,840
somehow calculates all this in the moment.

921
00:59:53,159 --> 00:59:55,719
Speaker 1: It would kill Jacqueline's career exactly.

922
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 3: It would kill Jacqueline's career, or it would do It

923
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,400
would do serious dam image to him to miss a

924
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:05,440
lot like that on his home soil to tie the

925
01:00:05,559 --> 01:00:11,719
Ryder Cup. And Tony is resolute. He will tell you

926
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:13,519
he would have made that putt, and I bet he

927
01:00:13,559 --> 01:00:18,239
would have, and all his teammates it was a two footer,

928
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:22,440
give or take maybe a couple of inches. But what

929
01:00:22,599 --> 01:00:28,960
all the players were unanimous on was he probably would

930
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,400
have made it. But it was missible under the circumstances.

931
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,920
It was not a gimme. If it were a gimme,

932
01:00:35,719 --> 01:00:39,239
then the concession really doesn't mean anything, and it wouldn't

933
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:41,880
be the big deal it is today. So Nicholas concedes

934
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:46,559
the putt and they shake hands. Jack has some nice

935
01:00:46,599 --> 01:00:49,480
words for Tony on that green, and they walk off

936
01:00:49,559 --> 01:00:54,679
the green arm in arm. The gallery's applauding Henry Longhurst

937
01:00:54,800 --> 01:01:00,239
is announcing on BBC and you know, fade out. It

938
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,559
was this great moment in golf. But as we talked

939
01:01:04,599 --> 01:01:07,719
a little bit of I think maybe we alluded to earlier,

940
01:01:09,559 --> 01:01:13,320
it was controversial with some of his teammates and certainly

941
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:14,880
as captain at that time.

942
01:01:16,639 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: Sure sure, what was the relationship between at the time,

943
01:01:21,559 --> 01:01:23,760
between Jacqueline and Jack.

944
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,039
Speaker 3: Well, that's an interesting part of it too, I should

945
01:01:28,079 --> 01:01:33,519
tell say that one of the great I mean, including

946
01:01:33,559 --> 01:01:36,840
spending time with them, A great part of this project

947
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:41,960
for me too was asking and having them collaborate on

948
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:46,920
the forward for this story, which is in Draw on

949
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,159
the Dune. So the forward of the book is by

950
01:01:49,239 --> 01:01:53,920
Jack Nicholas and Tony Jacqueline, and in that they they say,

951
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,719
and you know how they were friends. They were friends.

952
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:00,920
And this is the interesting thing about Jack Nicholas. He's

953
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:07,760
this great competitor who who would played to win and

954
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:12,639
won a lot, but he also had this maturity about

955
01:02:12,719 --> 01:02:18,920
him and this grace to where he had. He did

956
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,039
something on that green that I don't know if any

957
01:02:21,079 --> 01:02:22,760
of the other players would have thought of to do,

958
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:26,880
and that was to concede that putt, and he felt

959
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,480
like that was the right thing to do and that

960
01:02:29,719 --> 01:02:33,800
the Ryder Cup inning in a tie was a good thing.

961
01:02:34,599 --> 01:02:37,000
And I think he turned out to be right about that,

962
01:02:37,079 --> 01:02:40,320
although you know, people are certainly it's debatable, you know,

963
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:45,239
I've I've been asking the question and social media and elsewhere,

964
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:48,159
you know, and Samsoney didn't believe in giving a pup

965
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,679
like that that someone could have missed, they still could

966
01:02:51,679 --> 01:02:56,000
have won. But I think for the Ryder Cup and

967
01:02:56,119 --> 01:03:01,519
for reviving interest, for tapping into that spirit of sportsmanship,

968
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,840
I think is a part of how the whole thing

969
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:11,119
got started with Samuel Ryder, the international goodwill. I think

970
01:03:11,159 --> 01:03:14,840
that what Jack Nicholas did was indeed a great gesture,

971
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,320
and I think that's why it's still remembered and talked

972
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:23,840
about today.

973
01:03:24,079 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: It's an amazing story. I am so glad that you

974
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,079
dug it up and flushed it out the way you have.

975
01:03:32,679 --> 01:03:36,159
It really is a phenomenal story. Is there a record

976
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:43,039
of how Sam Snead felt about the concession, knowing that

977
01:03:43,079 --> 01:03:45,039
he wanted to win as the captain.

978
01:03:46,159 --> 01:03:49,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is. He never liked it, Wow, And I

979
01:03:49,639 --> 01:03:52,639
talked to Jack about that. Jack knew it, the other

980
01:03:52,679 --> 01:03:57,199
players knew it. Of course, Sam died in two thousand

981
01:03:57,199 --> 01:04:00,239
and two. So I was never able to talk to him.

982
01:04:00,719 --> 01:04:03,840
But there is a quote in the book, in the

983
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:09,320
aftermath chapter that's attributed to Sam that was, you know,

984
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,440
I picked up from another source, and it's a well

985
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:15,159
known quote. I've seen it in other places where he

986
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,679
just he said, I wasn't I we didn't come over here.

987
01:04:18,679 --> 01:04:21,119
It's something like, and I don't have it handy right now,

988
01:04:21,119 --> 01:04:22,840
but it's something like, we didn't come over here to

989
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:25,800
be good old boys. And I would never give a

990
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:30,400
putt like that to anyone except maybe my brother. That's

991
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,719
the gist of it. It just went against his philosophy.

992
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:37,239
And Jack understood that. He told me when I interviewed

993
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:39,239
him last year, he said, you know, that was just

994
01:04:39,519 --> 01:04:42,000
Sam's mode. He said, I accept that Sam was a

995
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:45,440
great player and a great competitor. He said, Now I

996
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:47,840
don't know that when it was all over and it

997
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,920
was a tie, I don't know that I felt like

998
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,280
he should have been as upset about it as he was.

999
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:59,159
But the Sam, you know, the captain and the players,

1000
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:04,079
even then, even with their disappointment, I think they had

1001
01:05:04,119 --> 01:05:08,239
a lot of respect for Jack Nicholas, Because Jack said

1002
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:11,280
Sam never said a word to him about it. Not

1003
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:16,880
one word at that time or until he died. Sam

1004
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:22,079
never said anything to him, and Jack's teammates never took

1005
01:05:22,159 --> 01:05:25,440
him aside and said, Jack, what were you thinking? Why

1006
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:29,320
did you do that? They were you know, they they

1007
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:33,079
admitted they were disappointed. Tommy Aaron told me that he said,

1008
01:05:33,079 --> 01:05:37,920
I was shocked. Billy Casper told me that he said,

1009
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:40,400
we were disappointed at the time, but he said, you know,

1010
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:44,000
they all eventually got to a place through the years

1011
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,920
where they could look back on that and say that

1012
01:05:47,079 --> 01:05:49,000
was a good thing, and that was a good thing

1013
01:05:49,079 --> 01:05:50,039
for the Ryder Cup.

1014
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,679
Speaker 1: Oh that's nice. Thank you for this story, this and

1015
01:05:53,719 --> 01:05:56,599
thank you for bringing it out as much as you have.

1016
01:05:56,719 --> 01:05:58,320
I appreciate it because I know you want people to

1017
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:00,079
read the book, but I think at tease like this

1018
01:06:00,119 --> 01:06:01,320
is going to make them want to pick up this

1019
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:04,440
two hundred and eighty page book and read it, especially

1020
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,480
this week, you know, to put it all in context

1021
01:06:07,599 --> 01:06:13,679
with watching the Ryder Cup. What what do you think

1022
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:15,199
is your next project?

1023
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:20,679
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know really, I well, Fred, but

1024
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:23,119
I hope there is another one because I really enjoyed this.

1025
01:06:23,199 --> 01:06:26,360
And one thing, I you know, we started talking about

1026
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,800
the players. Uh, and I really got off on the

1027
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,559
American team. But I think one of the things too

1028
01:06:34,599 --> 01:06:38,039
that people will like about this is the the British

1029
01:06:38,039 --> 01:06:40,599
players are not as well known, but you get to

1030
01:06:40,639 --> 01:06:44,039
know them in this book. So absolutely they people know

1031
01:06:44,079 --> 01:06:48,280
of Tony Jacquelin, but some of the other players that

1032
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:51,840
they'll meet in this story they may have heard of,

1033
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,400
they may have known that they were captains at one point.

1034
01:06:55,199 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 4: Uh.

1035
01:06:55,719 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 3: One player in particular that a lot of people who

1036
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:02,519
are golf fans will know he's still around is Peter Alice,

1037
01:07:02,679 --> 01:07:07,480
the great commentator for the BBC. He is in this

1038
01:07:08,039 --> 01:07:10,840
Ryder Cup. It's his last one on the British side.

1039
01:07:11,519 --> 01:07:14,719
And you have some other great players like Neil Coles

1040
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:19,039
and Christy O'Connor. Of course I mentioned Brian Huggett, so

1041
01:07:19,079 --> 01:07:23,119
I think Brian Barnes some people might recognize that name.

1042
01:07:23,719 --> 01:07:27,079
So I think the get for me getting to know

1043
01:07:27,119 --> 01:07:29,440
the players was a lot of fun. And I didn't

1044
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:32,239
know the British side as well until I interviewed them

1045
01:07:32,239 --> 01:07:36,480
and wrote about them. But I hope to do another

1046
01:07:36,519 --> 01:07:42,840
book and if anybody has some ideas in my way will.

1047
01:07:42,599 --> 01:07:44,599
Speaker 1: Do send him to me and I'll make sure that

1048
01:07:44,679 --> 01:07:47,639
Neil gets them. That's a great way to go. Well,

1049
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:52,440
the video of that final haul is available, and I

1050
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:54,800
will put that on the website as well to tease

1051
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:57,400
you just a little bit more about this story.

1052
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 3: That's a great I'm sorry, go ahead, Yeah, that's that's great.

1053
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:09,199
And I got right to the eighteenth hole with Nicholas

1054
01:08:09,199 --> 01:08:12,119
and Jacqueline coming down to the end. But there are

1055
01:08:12,159 --> 01:08:15,800
some things that happen in that final half hour forty

1056
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:20,399
five minutes that are pretty amazing and people will get

1057
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:23,760
into them. There's a player who thinks he has a

1058
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,239
putt to win the Ryder Cup before Jacqueline and Nicholas

1059
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:29,319
get to that final green, and he has good reason

1060
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:31,960
to think that. There's some drama. There's a lot of

1061
01:08:32,039 --> 01:08:36,680
drama in that final hour of the nineteen sixty nine

1062
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:39,479
Ryder Cup, and I detailed that and draw on the

1063
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:40,840
Dunes awesome.

1064
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:45,680
Speaker 1: Well again, it's Drawing the Dunes nineteen sixty nine Ryder

1065
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:49,159
Cup in the finish that Shocked the World by Neil Sagabel. Neil,

1066
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:52,800
I not only appreciate you alerting me that this is

1067
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:56,159
happening and getting it to me before the book came

1068
01:08:56,199 --> 01:09:03,840
out to the public. Unfortunately books interrupt us by our hurricane,

1069
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:08,760
but I hope everyone comes to the Golfer's mart on

1070
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:11,359
our website and go into our book section. You will

1071
01:09:11,359 --> 01:09:14,119
find this and you will find Neil's other book about

1072
01:09:14,159 --> 01:09:16,720
the Longest Shot. Neil was great to talk to you.

1073
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,079
Thank you so much for your time, and I look forward.

1074
01:09:20,119 --> 01:09:22,079
I hope it's not another two years before we get

1075
01:09:22,119 --> 01:09:23,079
to tell another story.

1076
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 3: Me too. I really enjoy it. Fred, thanks for having

1077
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:29,960
me on and enjoy the Ryder Cup, and I hope

1078
01:09:30,119 --> 01:09:31,600
the US can win this time