Speaker 1: My family thinks I'm crazy. Podcast where I your host,
trying to give you.
Speaker 2: Some tips and how you can explain all this weird
and wild, crazy conspiracy stuff to the people you love most,
because that's what I've been trying to do for the
past ten years.
Speaker 3: With no success.
Speaker 4: I've been telling everybody, but every time I do, my family.
Speaker 5: Thinks I'm crazy.
Speaker 6: Are both aliens and reading in the water the last guys, Dailey.
Speaker 3: When I talk them about these things, things I'm.
Speaker 6: Writing and if there's been anyways, not anythings are crazy.
Speaker 5: What they don't want to listen to.
Speaker 1: No, they don't want to listen.
Speaker 2: They don't want to hear it.
Speaker 1: They're just like, oh here we go, mark off again
with yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: So you know, that's the.
Speaker 7: Thing about podcast is when you're on the air and
it's like therapy.
Speaker 1: You know, if I can't talk to my family about this.
Speaker 2: Stuff, I'll talk to you man and all our listeners.
Speaker 7: So we're talking about today that's crazy.
Speaker 8: Some people say that angels the highest beings right next
to the absolute right next, but they can't go over.
Speaker 5: The only way they can.
Speaker 8: Go over is to fall, to become a human and
work their way gain enlightenment.
Speaker 5: And then they can go.
Speaker 8: Who knows how long it'll take, but on the road
to enlightenment things get better and better and better.
Speaker 5: Don't you ever wonder about anything.
Speaker 1: David Lynch? What can be said about such an enigmatic
and prolific director that has not been said or covered
by today's guest, whose two part series Esuteric Hollywood, with
third installment on the Way, has combed through Lynch's work
and is here to discuss Lynch's legacy and the symbolic
aspects of the films. Author and researcher Jay Dyer returns
to join me Mystic Mark here on My Family Think
Some Crazy Podcast. Thank you for tuning in and enjoy
this conversation with Jay Dyer.
Speaker 5: Major Briggs. Major Briggs is there to investigate on the
behalf of the military and the deep State. You could
say what they think are alien manifestations, but it's actually
the same thing as all the spiritual demonic manifestations, so
it's not actually aliens. But there's a white lodge and
a black lodge. And I think this one picture that
somebody drew, I don't matter threw it, but it kind
of encapsulates like the spirituality of the whole Twin Peaks world.
If you can see it. You got the white lodge
up top, you've got the black lodge at the bottom,
and they're kind of in these diamond structures in between
the two mountains, the two peaks, and the diamond in
the middle is the portal, which is the in the woods.
It's like a it looks like an oil, like an oil,
like a naturally occurring sort of pool of oil. And
you know, they describe it as kind of having this
demonic kind of burning, burning oil smell when they go
out there. But yeah, it's a portal. It's a pathway
into the next dimension, and that's what's going on in twenty.
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to my Family Think Some
Crazy podcast, and we have a real treat for you
this episode. Joining me again after a long hiatus. He
was one of the first guests that I had on
the show which made me consider this podcast off to
a great start. I think it was in the early
days of the show when I still had co hosts.
Maybe even I don't know, but either way, Jay, it's
a pleasure to have you back on the show. We're
going to be talking a little bit about the recent
passing of David Lynch and of course his legacy, a
tremendous film legacy. I feel kind of funny. I have
to admit when we first spoke, I was like, I
don't watch movies. Well, being a full time podcaster, now
I have a little bit more time on my hands,
and I've spent plenty of time watching David Lynch and
Twin Peaks actually was one of my favorite shows I
used to watch when I was younger. But either way,
this topic is something I'm a little bit more acquainted with.
But before we dive into David Lynch, tell the audience
a little bit about your next book, because you're working
on the follow up to your what will be a trilogy,
Esoteric Hollywood, and on Danny's Low Value Mail podcast, which
you're so kind to join us this past week, you
mentioned how Hollywood is dying, so I have to ask,
do you think this will be the last Esoteric Hollywood
book considering we have maybe only a corpse of Hollywood
left after this decade?
Speaker 5: You actually kind of read my mind, and thanks for
having me back, because I was actually thinking, like a
couple of days ago, like is this going to be
the last of the Hollywood books. Will I will I
do another one? I mean, I guess you could always
go back and write about you know, old movies, which
is kind of what we already do here on my end.
But yeah, man, I mean I've been that was exactly
what I was thinking. It may be the end of
Hollywood as we know it. Everything's going to streaming and
Apple Studios and Amazon Studios and all that, so could
be I may, I may. What I like to do
is kind of step away from projects and then come
back after a long time, So you know, I might
finish part three, come back after a few years, and maybe,
like I was thinking, a separate book on all the
people in Hollywood that were spies, that could be its
own book. I don't know if anybody who's written a
specific book on that. That's a fair question.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that be fascinating. I think it's been alluded to
in several movies, just the tight knit and I mean,
obviously the documents have come out, but as far as
you know new movies go, were there many new movies
that made the cut for this third book?
Speaker 5: Good question. I'm looking through the list of the ones
that I included.
Speaker 1: I can say one movie that really I don't know
critically how well it did, but I remember a lot
of people at least in our sphere talking about it
was something what was it called everything Everywhere all at once,
something to that effect, right, and that was kind of
a Yeah.
Speaker 5: I actually haven't seen that. I remember when that came
out maybe last year and everybody was talking about that,
but I actually forgot to see it. I mean, there's
a few that are maybe films within the last say
five years that made the cut, like Under the Silver Lake,
that was a really yoteric film. I think that one's
going to be in there. We got analysis, maybe a
Babylon Berlin which is a pretty popular or term and
TV show that'll be mentioned. And then there's going to
be a final kind of culminating chapter called Hollywood Apocalypse,
which is really just overall all of the Hollywood treatments
of like anti Christ and in times and how Hollywood
presents that. So there's a few in there that are new,
like the Omen prequel was pretty I thought it was
a pretty good movie, but yeah, not too many new movies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had that suspicion that that would be the case,
and yeah, you sort of addressed that right off the bat. So, Jaye,
it's a pleasure to have you back. Thanks for joining me.
There's a lot we have to talk about as it
pertains to David Lynch, but you just mentioned something that
I want to maybe tangent to really quickly. Babylon Berlin.
This is an interesting show. I've never heard of it,
but it does kind of connect to what we might
talk about today in the sense that, oh, well, at
least for me. I read a book called The Beast
of Berlin. I believe it was by Oh geez, he
writes so many books about Alistair Crowley. He's like the
foremost Alistair Crowley author. But either way, he wrote a
book about Alistair Crowley's time in Berlin. And the more
I've researched, the more it comes back to Berlin. Even
Skull and Bones, I mean, they allegedly have some sort
of mysterious brother chapter that was from Berlin. So's it's
a strange place, and it seems like maybe the veils
lifting on this to some sense, like do the German
people are they kind of is this indicative that they're
kind of interested in the occult and in a kind
of similar way to the way America. You know, we're
kind of taking in these ideas in a more common way.
Speaker 5: Well, after World War Two, the OSS and the CIA
were involved in re education projects in Germany, and the
idea was that Germany would have to kind of be
punished and re educated as a result of what happened
in World War Two, and so the US actually tried
out a lot of psychological warfare social engineering techniques to
make sure that the Germans would not be involved in
engineering or anything like that. They were supposed to be
more I guess domesticated. That's covered it in depth in
the Yell and Ratio book on the Milner Fabian Conspiracy,
which is a really good book. So I think that
that they kind of tried to Americanize Europe and Germany
after World World War two, and part of that would
be to push a lot of what the CIA has
pushed in Germany, like experimental family situations, pedo type of
stuff that's been literally pushed by the CIA in Germany.
So yeah, I think they are subject to the same
toxic degeneracy in terms of culture. Probably Crowley was there.
I'm just going from memory. IM not an expert on
Crowley but what you know, he wanted to join OTO,
and so you have Theodore Royce and Carl Kellner were
you know, we're in Germany, so I'm assuming that's why
Curley went there. But Curley was also working for British intelligence,
so he might have had you know, intelligence jobs he
was supposed to do or something as well. But yes,
there is a dark, deep seated connection with German paganism
Germanic traditions that I think kind of are there. German
films were doing a lot of satanic expressionism before Hollywood,
so you had this in No Speratu, you had I
think The Golem was a German film too, which is
about Kabbala obviously, and you had Forri Slance, Metropolis and
so forth. That's before Hollywood was really doing much of
the satanic in the in cinema. But yeah, I would
say there's probably a lot of that bubbling underneath the surface.
And to mention Battle in Berlin that actually comes up
in season two, there's a whole section of Season two
part season one. I don't want to spoil it, but
it's actually about compromising politicians with sex stuff, which is
odd because that was coming out around the same time,
as like the jeff Stein Jeffrey stuff. Season two deals
with a bunch of actors and actresses that are involved
in a satanic cult in the German film production business.
And then it kind of hints that like transhumanists, Carl
Young Cia mind control stuff towards the end.
Speaker 1: So fascinating. Yeah, I should check that out. That's interesting.
Speaker 5: It seems it's a pretty good show.
Speaker 1: It seems like that this is, you know, part of
a list of shows that have kind of become popular
in this atmosphere of dead Hollywood. I think Stranger Things
might be another example, or a Black Mirror could be
another example, where.
Speaker 5: What mirrors in the book? By the way?
Speaker 1: Okay? Interesting? And would you say that these shows are
inspired by Lynch to some degree? I mean, he's obviously
a prolific director and people everyone knows who he is.
But you know, do you see any of Lynch's work
in some of the newer stuff you've looked at?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's all over the place.
I remember watching a pretty good independent horror film called
Come True. I feel like it was very lynchinging and
it's influence Stranger Things. Maybe I hadn't thought about that
off the top of my head. I mean there was
a lot of like, I mean, the in between, that's
kind of like, you know, the you know, the the
other place in Twin Peaks. So yeah, maybe that was there.
I just didn't notice it. We've seen a lot of
independent horror films over the last couple of years, and
I would imagine quite a few of them have that
kind of influence. I'm just not I can't think of
anything off the top of my head that stands out
other than something like Come True. There's a new independent
horror film I just saw the other day, and I
watched the trailer. I've got it on my Amazon list,
but I don't remember the name of it, but it
looked just like a David Lynch film. So I would
say absolutely, I'm sure that you know, Blue Velvet, Twin Peaks,
you know, Mahan Dry. I think these films are going
to be influencing people for years to come.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there is an aspect to them. And you
write about this. You've You've written about Lynch's work in
both Esoteric Hollywood one and two, and You've also done
a pretty comprehensive breakdown of Lynch's work on your YouTube
channel recently, so I recommend folks check that out as
an addition to today's conversation. But as it comes to
you know, the whole Lynchian world of things, you reference
it being sort of like a hallucinogenic experience, or maybe
people who have had you know, hallucinogens experiences with them
to some extent may see into his work in a
way that others who haven't cannot. I get attest to
this to some extent. But I'll also say that all
of my and I'm not watching these films studying them,
but all of my you know, attempts to recount a
Lynch film end up spawning a dream sequence that upon
further you know, investigation, like oh, that wasn't even a
part of the film. So there's a part of his
media that works its way into your psyche. I can
at least attest to that. But yeah, describe that. And
is this a part of something that inspired you to
initially write this series? I mean, was Lynch's work particularly
inspirational to you in general?
Speaker 5: Yeah? I think for one, because I grew up with
a lot of buddies that were you know, film boffs.
We love movies, we love the arts in general, and
I think we didn't understand in the nineties when we
were watching this stuff what it meant. And that doesn't
mean that I've understood it all and not trying to
overanalyze and make it like it's some sort of giant
puzzle that I've put all the pieces together. But I
do think in the case of like Twin Peaks, for example,
I did put a lot of the puzzle pieces for
that together. I'd say about eight or nine years ago,
I went through all the Twin Peaks is kind of
in anticipation for season three that was coming. I don't
think we even knew at the time that was coming,
but it ended up working out that way, and I took,
you know, copious notes, hid a lot of attention. I
was actually reading a lot of texts that went along
with it, not intentionally, but I was reading like Carl
Young and Merkilla Iliada and him talking about shamanism. And
then I remember watching Lost Highway and I felt like, Okay,
so some of this is kind of starting to make sense.
And I think it was elements of dissociation going on here.
And I remember reading Senator Force Sinator Force's trilogy and
he talked about how you know, there's these shamanic elements
to Lynch and I think that was a big key
that I never thought about before. Through the darkness, the
futures passed, the magician lungs to see one chounce out
chance out between two worlds, fire walk with me. That's
a shamanic kind of you know, Vegas meant magicians phrase
or almost kind of a high coup, you could say.
But I reading about Tantrasm and reading about Tulpa's you know,
you have Coop in the story is a you know,
he's interested in Tibetan Buddhism. So some of these keys
I think helped me to kind of piece together what
was going on. And then you get the one armed
man Mike or Gerard who talks about this magical ring
that the people in the society where that I think
was another key that when I saw sigils, you know,
magic sigils in the background and several scenes, that was
kind of a key for me.
Speaker 8: That.
Speaker 5: Okay, so there's like an esoteric component to this where
they're using the keys of Solomon and they're trying to
you know, access the dark dimensions and whatnot, so to me,
it just suggested crowleyan type of stuff. And when Mark
Frost put out his book in twenty I don't know,
eighteen seventy and eighteen somewhere there about the Secret History
of Twin Peaks, it was all in there. He talked
about Crowley, Jack Parsons, you know, magic, rings, sex, magic,
mystical toponymy. I mean, it was all pretty much what
I had laid out in my analysis I had written
a few years before his book came out. So to me,
that was a vindication of the reading that I had
of the film. I se the TV series and then
we had season three come out and I had to
put that in the book, and I combined that with
Firewalk with Me. So long story short, yeah, I think
understanding some of the elements of the shamanic traditions, the
magical ritual, magic traditions, Crowley, all that helped me to
look back on this series that I didn't understand the
nineties and decode it. And then by extensions, some of
those same themes appear in other mysterious films. I Lost
Highway or mahand Drive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I Lost Highway left a similar feeling. And
I also have seen blue Velvet. I watched the entire
Twin Peaks series, and I watched Firewalks with Me twice
because I was so disturbed by it. I didn't really
understand you know, some of the I guess more subtle
aspects of it, but there's a major theme. And maybe
I might be conflating the film with the television show,
so correct me where I'm wrong. And I haven't seen
the new, you know, version of Twin Peaks, but but
there's a thread of sex trafficking going.
Speaker 5: On with ye too, right.
Speaker 1: And and because of the geographical location of this fictional place,
they're sort of on the border of Canada, right, And
Laura Palmer is sort of whisked into this world of
you know, drug use and prostitution and in at a
very young age. And at first you're kind of like, wow,
how could this you know, young woman who's supposed to
be this symbol of American innocence, almost like the surgery. Right,
So help me understand this a little bit better, Like,
what what is David Lynch do you think trying to
tell us? Is there sort of you know, indulgence in
this that you think he's maybe complicit in? Or is
this more of him, kind of just giving us a
raw look at what America's under belly looks like.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's the ladder for sure. I don't
have any knowledge or evidence of him necessarily involved in
anything malicious per se. I mean, I just think he
was coming from that vantage point with Blue Velvet, same
theme one percent in Twin peaks, a lot of the
same spirit, a lot of the same vibe going on
between those two productions. But I think that the key
here is that you know, you have Laura's dad as
the real villain here because you know, at some point
that we learned from Firewalk with Me, Leland had been
seeing these prostitutes, one of whom looks similar to Laura Palmer,
and Leland had been molesting her. And we also find
out that Leland seems to be possessed himself. He has
a you know, alternate personalities. There's a demonic manifestation that's
kind of impelling him. So what appears to have happened
is that Leland got involved with Ben Horn and other
people who owns this sort of prostitution One eye jacks
this house of ill repute across the border. So he's
not really subject to all the laws One Eye Jacks
and then maybe at some point Leland had also gotten
deeper into esoteric stuff, which is why Leland seems to
be involved in this the sex cult beyond just the
prostitution ring at Ben Horn's One Eyed Jacks. And so yeah,
that's the deep dark secret here is that there is
a kind of a pedo you know, incest sex cult
going on. And you know, if we pay attention to
say season two of Twin Peaks with Wyndham Earl, you
have people in the intelligence establishment that are trying to
tap into the dark side. You know, they want to
actually harness satanic energy, and I think that's explanation for
the Garment Bosia. You have these sort of demonic ish
entities or these beings from another dimension that kind of
inhabit this you know, Black Lodge or the place in between,
and they want to feed on garment Bosia or the
pain and the suffering of people in this life that
are abused by the people that they possess, so they
can possess a serial killer, you know, the one our
man Bob, et cetera, and try to get those people
to commit evil actions which feeds those demons so I
think that's all very profound. I mean, I actually believe
a lot of that being Orthodox, but I think David
Lynch's vantage point is much more like a Tibetan Buddhist
kind of spirituality here. But Buddhism believes in the demonics,
so you have the idea of Tulpa's especially in season
three when we get fake agent Cooper, who's a Tulpa.
You get elements of Theosophy kind of playing a role here.
So I think it does pull from different religious traditions
and even shamanism as well as ritual magic. But you
also have other conspiracy things tying into like aliens. You've
got the Major for his name, but he's the guy
that plays the general in the Stargate. But to Major Briggs,
Major Briggs is there to investigate on the behalf of
the military and the deep state. You could say what
they think are alien manifestations, but it's actually the same
thing as all the spiritual demonic manifestations, so it's not
actually aliens. But there's a white lodge and a black lodge.
And I think this one picture it's somebody drew. I
don't know how trew it, but it kind of encapsulates
like the spirituality of the whole Twin Peaks of world.
If you can see it, it's like you've got.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I saw you show this in your stream.
It's very interesting. It's the two peaks with a sort
of I guess you could call it a zigzag of
three rectangles touching on each end.
Speaker 5: You've got the white lodge up top, You've got the
black lodge at the bottom, and they're kind of in
these diamond structures in between the two mountains, the two peaks,
and the diamond in the middle is the portal, which
is the pool out and in the woods it's like
a it looks like an oil, like an oil, like
a naturally occurring sort of pool of oil. And you know,
they describe it as kind of having this demonic kind
of burning, burning oil smell when they go out there.
But yeah, it's a portal. It's a pathway into the
next dimension. And yeah, so that's that's what's going on
in Twin Peaks. Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fascinating. And you mentioned the term mystical toponymy.
I think it's very relevant that they're crossing the border
to go to One Eyed Jacks. This sort of implied
this limit in all space, this boundary zone, which is
often very mystical in many different folklores. There's all sorts
of lore about whether it's gateways or however it's termed.
But I'm curious. There's also the mention of twilight language,
which we know Twilight language quite well. We've interviewed to
Michael Hoffman here on the show, and mystical toponomy is
one term that I think him and well, mister oh geez,
I'm drawing from blank on the dang fool's name. I
know him well, but Hoffman and shall be down or
James Shelby down or you know, kind of popularized mystical
toponomy with their King Kill thirty three. So it seems
like David Lynch was at least privy to the conspiracy
culture of America. But do you think that you know
he well, like as far as Twilight language goes, like
what made your themes? Did you notice?
Speaker 5: I think he is familiar with that because that's actually
part of Tibetan Buddhism, and even in that sort of
the normy kind of western Dalai Lama, familiar aspects of
Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism and whatnot. It's the term. It's
called sun dabiyasa, And I'd actually forgotten about this and
I was looking it up a couple of days ago,
So this is actually pretty providential synchronicity. Man Sona biyasa
is the is the their term for twilight language is
actually old concept that comes out of Eastern religions, and
the idea, at least on the surface, is just simply
that is talking in code. So basically, if you want
to talk about something that not everybody who's initiated can
understand you speaking code. One example of this is when
those traditions, for example, talk about the lotus, people say, oh,
you're talking about some sort of a flower symbol. No,
it's actually the vagina. So in just basic sunda biyasa
talking about a lotus literally refers to vagina. And there's
quite a bit of like you know, tantric sex magic
stuff that uses that idea. But it also might relate
to the layout of space. Right, It's a spatial toponymy
is what we're talking about here. With the idea that
there are places that are sacred, there's places that are
perhaps consecrated to dark forces. Names take on a key
significance here where you have a term that might refer
to one thing but also refers to something else. And
so that's where the toponymy or the layout of the
land turns into something mystical. And I think just a
really basic example would be like we had in that
diagram where you have, you know, the middle place between
these two peaks is precisely the portal that takes you
either to the hell dimension or the demon dimension or
the in between. So even the term that you know
twin peaks, we could think of this as like two pillars,
like in masonry of Jacob and Boaz. You know that
that represents good and evil, you know, male female, very
similar to like Yin Yang type stuff. Carl Jung talks
about this and his archetypes of the Collective Unconscious book,
which is I'm reading right now. I just read that
chapter actually one and Animis and Enema, and he's talking
about that very point. But what I'm saying is that
even though what we might think of as say, symbolic
correspondences can also relate to places and names, and that's
really where mystical toponomy comes into play. Lost highway. I mean,
I think that's another type of term where you have
this idea of, like you said, the liminal space you're driving,
you know, out in the desert like Fred Madison does
and lost highway and it's almost like he drives off
into another dimension. And so what's a lost highway. Well,
I think Hoffman used examples of something like Route sixty
six and you know, driving out to Death Valley. You know,
this kind of terminology would suggest you know, negative spiritual forces,
this kind of stuff. So that's kind of the idea
behind mystical toponomy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's the Road of the Dead Spirits
or something like that in Spanish, this road that has
historically been there for you know, however long the natives
have been there. And yeah, now this is exactly where
the Trinity bombing site is, which is another theme in
Lynch's work. There's not just in Twin Peaks, but in
several of his films there's actually this is.
Speaker 5: A huge part of season three. I'm sorry, I mean
interrupt you just finding me. The Trenity explosion is a
huge part of season three and it actually a demon
comes through the portal when the bomb goes off in
season three.
Speaker 1: Now, season three came out in twenty seventeen, Lynch, did
he have his hands on that at all. I'm completely
in the dark as far as that one.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, in fact, I mean I was a really
hyped for it looking forward to there was a lot
of concern because there was fear it wouldn't get made.
And then showtime was who sort of came to the
rescue to make sure that it did get made? And yeah,
I think they pretty much gave David Lynch, you know,
final cut, and he made all those decisions. And actually
I did mention Hoffmann in my chapter on season three,
so you're you're correct that mystical toponomy plays a key
role I think in season three, again precisely because of
the Trinity Site explosions, being it's such a portal that opens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a big part of American culture. I
think just the road trip. It's a classic American idea.
We all have this pioneering spirit, whether you're in the
Midwest or the West, and your ancestors actually you know,
traveled on a kind of stoke a wagon or you know,
if you're like me and you're some kind of East
Coast mutt and your family came over on ships. You know,
we all have this adventurous sort of spirit in US
as Americans. It's sort of the frontier still in many ways,
and Lynch definitely plays on that. But with Lost Highway
there there is a lead in to his film Inland
Empire as well.
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, I think there's a loose connection between. I mean,
you could argue there's a loose connection between all of
David Lynch's cannon in some way, at least in his mind.
And you'll notice a lot of times these characters kind
of pop in and out from one story to the next.
Right and Lost Highway you have, you know, Sailor and
Lula driving down what looks like the Lost Highway and
they encounter who appears to be Audrey Horn, right, so
it's the same character from Twin Peaks, and she seems
to have had a wreck and a head wound. And
then when we come over to That's Me that's in
Wild Heart, Then we come over to Lost Highway. You know,
Fred seems to be on that same Lost Highway. He
seems to he gets a head wound when he's in prison,
and then we get this sort of dissociation into the
Life of Pete in the second half of the film.
So yeah, there's there's always these kind of overlaps. You
get Laura Palmer appears to show up in Wild at
Heart as the good Witch of the West, you know,
at the end of the film, who encourages Nick Cage
to go and and you know, kiss Laura Dern to
make sure that they don't part ways. So, you know,
David Lynch talks about these different worlds and different portals
and dimensions and dream worlds and and he kind of
sees them as infinite and perhaps overlapping. And that's partly due,
I think to his influence from Hinduism, transittal, meditation, all
that kind of stuff that he's into or was into,
that plays a role, I think in his metaphysics. And
I didn't even realize until pretty recently I was reading
about Inland Empire. It's relying pretty heavily on a lot
of Hindu concept So you have reincarnation there, you have
this tea. I didn't even realize this, but apparently Lynch
got some of these ideas from not Mari Maharishi Mahshiyogi,
but some other Yogi dude who talks about contrasting the
palace in the marketplace and the different world and portals
of how we live our lives in these different domains,
and I did I didn't know any of that was
part of Inland Empire, but now that I do, it's like,
clearly that's part of the motif of how you're supposed
to interpret this.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it seems like the cast system, the sort
of what do they call it in India, the undesirables
are are sort of the way I don't know if
this is directly portrayed in Inland Empire, but the end
of the film where she's sort of like, you know,
just rambling.
Speaker 5: Around with like the people who are drug addicts and.
Speaker 1: Right right, I don't remember when that film was made by,
but I imagine at the time that was something that
was less common than it is now. That was something
that was maybe more local to West Coast cities like
La you know, skid Row's been around for a really
long time, and then you know San Francisco has their
Tenderloin area. But yeah, it seems like now we look
at that and we're like, oh, yeah, I mean that
could be any American city with the you know, drug
addicts all over the place wandering around.
Speaker 5: You know, yeah, it was prior to like Fentanel. You're
right about that, Like that was prior to that whole
I would say, you know, intentional culture war where they
allowed that to be flooded into America. But yeah, I
think that. You know, there's a lot of things going
on with the Laura during character. It's breaking the fourth wall.
She's intended to be herself to a degree, and it
overlaps between you know, whether she's really having these experiences
or whether it's happening in her head and she's seeing
back to her past life when she was a human
traffic to prostitute, you know, Polish girl and in a
previous generation. So it kind of flips back and forth
between those worlds and those lifetimes. But I think you're
right to point out the marketplace and the palace because
when she becomes essentially kind of a street prostitute, drug addict,
I mean that's she's become a marketable item. And I
think Lynch is saying, yeah, the Hollywood markets these actresses
as items and as products. That's exactly what's in the
Hall and Drive. Because then Naomi Watt's character wins this contest,
she goes to Hollywood. She thinks she's going to be
the next A list star. That's why you see you know,
posters on her wall that are all these old school
starlets from the golden days of Hollywood. And the whole
point of the film is that she ends up as
a crackhre But a lot of the film we're seeing
her sort of dissociative idea about like what she thinks
is happening and how she's a star, how she got
screwed over, and a lot of that's fake. Like everything
I think after the the car wreck is like you know,
in her head or whatever if I remember. But yeah,
so Lynch's I think, playing with all these different ideas
from disassociation to like you said, knowledge of American conspiracy culture,
to you know, nods to Hitchcock nods to Sunset Boulevard,
old you know, old classic Hollywood films, even the Prawn
side of Hollywood with the Roseanne Arquette character under mister Eddie, right,
obviously he's an organized crime figure who you know, he's
making prawn and she's one of his his actresses. So
it's you know, it's all over the place. And then
it's it's that's all tied into weird Tibetan and Hindu metaphysics.
I mean, it's just it's just wild. I mean, I
don't even know what to I don't even I don't
think there's anything like that. I mean, that's why people
call it lynch and I mean I don't even know
what are you like in it? Too? It's not really
like anything else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and you you comment on the background weirdos
that are present in a lot of his work, and
it reminds me of an art class learning about Hieronymous
Bosh and his absurd sort of paintings. You look and
it's just flooded with like every you know, character you
can imagine, and especially in in the what was it
Blue Velvet or another film I forget which one, where
there's a villain character and he's sort of tormenting this
other character and there's this gang of people behind him.
Speaker 5: Yeah it's Blue Velvet. It's that famous. So you've got
Dean Stockwell, who by the way, was at least Day
McGowan another little speculated that he was in the oto,
and he's the one singing the Roy Orbison. You know,
Blue Velvet Song, and there's just all this crowd or
just absolute complete weirdos that are part of Dennis Hopper's gang.
And I mean, you know, he's just like this completely
insane villain who huffs. You know, it was supposed to
be laughing gas or whatever, but I mean he's just
nuts and it's a great villain character. But before I
did the podcast the other night talking about Lynch's stuff,
I watched a whole bunch of Lynch interviews. I mean
a bunch of or just with him, Charlie Rose, him
and Mimi Watts, and a lot of it's comedy, and
David Lynch was very open about how a lot of
his films were intentionally just you know, comedic, and other
actors and people were talking about how he had such
a great sense of humor and the absurd, and I
think that's another reason I like it as absurd ast
humor is kind of my bag. So yeah, he's you know,
putting a lot of stuff in there that's just because
it's funny. And the more I watched like Bald at Heart,
I mean that film always gets funnier the more I
watch it.
Speaker 1: So interesting, Yeah, I definitely need to revisit Lynch's work,
especially you know, post mortem. I think his impact is
going to probably be a bit of a ripple effect.
People are going to jump to to, you know, say, oh,
this was inspired by Lynch, and maybe they'll even be
some Lynch flotation or something like that.
Speaker 5: You know. But Wallet Heart.
Speaker 1: No, that's what I haven't seen.
Speaker 5: And yeah, that's great, that's one of my favorites. And
by the way, the cowboy makes an appearance in Wallet Heart,
and he also makes of course a memorable appearance in
Mahl and Drive.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and you you mentioned that earlier that there
are several overlaps. It's almost like the realm the cannon
of Lynch's film, similar to the way people talk about Tarantino,
where he kind of builds this world that all of
his films exist in. And yeah, it's fascinating, but on
the point of symbolism in Twilight Zone or well Twilight Language,
particularly not Twilight Zone. But I'm sure that had an
impact on Lynch, the rotating objects. And you pointed this
out in your stream that you did recently, and as
soon as you said that, I pictured a scene in
my mind from Twin Peaks with like I think it
was as simple as just a fan on a desk. Yeah, well, yeah,
I was there. There was a ceiling fan, but I
remember like one of those old school like wire frame
kind of just desk fans that you know, one shot
where you just spend some time focusing on that. So
there's several, you know, moments like that where he's showing
this and then the road we just mentioned as another symbol,
sort of object symbol that he uses. But what what
did you connect the rotating objects to?
Speaker 5: Well, I mean it's a circle. It's cyclical. I mean
I think that's intended to be the idea of the wheel.
You know, you have this Hinduism and a lot of
Eastern religions that there's this cycle of time and you're
sort of in this trap until you can transcend it.
At you nirvana, you know, release yourself from the wheel
of time. So that's an element of it. The movies
themselves are oftentimes cyclical. You know, Lost Highway ends the
very point it begins with Fred driving down the Lost Highway.
This the opening sequences. If I were oh, it was
the same as the end, And I think he's just
trying to say that, you know, his take on philosophy, history,
metaphysics is this kind of cyclical perspective. It's not linear,
Hence it's more like a dream. Stories have beginning, middle,
and end, and a lot of his movies kind of
jump around so that they can. Again, they're not linear,
they're more cyclical. The ancient pagan view of history was
that it was a never ending, eternal return cycle and
not a beginning, middle, and end. So that's I think
what is going on with law of that symbolism, and
you'll find it too, even in the music videos, like
all the things him and Crystal Bell, you know that
has the record spinning. Multiple David Lynch music videos have
the record spinning, So I think that's the purpose.
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Speaker 1: Right. And we know that some people who are epileptic
is it epileptic? I can't say that word more than
once when they're exposed to you know, flashing lights that
can induce, you know, certain seizures and things like that.
There's also a gentleman who built some sort of device
that he was kind of prolific. I'm having a massive
blame it on Hewle, folks, not a show sponsor my brain.
I feel like I'm firing on some cylinders tonight. But
there's this guy. He built like this device and he
was pretty inspirational. I think I've even heard you talk
about him in past talks. He was like not HG. Wells,
but in that milieu of British people scientifics, I mean.
Speaker 5: Like Wilhelm Reich and Oregon.
Speaker 1: Well, there's Wilhelm Reich, but no, this guy was more
British and he was specifically from London. But he created
some kind of device that he called like a dream
scope or something, but it worked with lights to induce
a sort of effect. I guess, you know, just a
little to point out that flickering lights is another symbol
that's reoccurring in Lynch's work.
Speaker 5: What do you think that, Yeah, I think I know
what you're talking about. I don't remember the name of
that guy that created the first sort of I know
what you're talking about. I think in David Lynch's films,
when it comes to flickering the lights, it's intended to
be the sign of something supernatural or demonic that's invading
the here and the now, because we see the flickering
lights when Chris Isaac and Fire walk with me, when
he arrives at the diner right away, the lights flicker
and they see like the people that are in the
above the gas station that we're involved in, the weird
spirits and the woodsmen appear and then they disappear. The
cowboy and mahand Drive appears when the lights flicker. I'm
sure there's many other instances when I think the lights flicker.
When Laura Palmer is laying in the morgue and Cooper's investigating,
and he sees Bob maybe or he sees Girard, I
can't remember. But anyway, the point being is that this
seems to be a recurring motif whenever David Lynch wants
to introduce almost like an atmosphere disturbance due to something
from that realm stepping into this realm. So there's like
this electrical disturbance. Oh, it happens when David Bowie walks
into the FBI headquarters and disappears. There's like this electrical
disturbance that affects the video recorders when he says I'm
not going to talk about Judy and then he disappears,
and then he doesn't come back. We don't know what
happens to him until season three or twin Peaks when
he appears. I won't spoil that for you, but it's
it's kind of goofy. Agent Jeffries, that's his name. He
teleports basically so.
Speaker 1: Well, and I remembered who I was thinking of. It
was William S. Burrows, and he created something called the
dream Machine. A poet and artist, I guess, but yeah,
it was operated with flickering life, and I think it caused,
you know, some research into that phenomena that causes seizure,
so there's somehow related to that. But either way, fascinating
to think that we have, you know, all of this
in Lynch's work. It's really like a mythology in itself.
I know you mentioned, you know, Mark Frost sort of
did the Secret History of Twin Peaks, but there definitely
ought to be a sort of twilight language of David
Lynch's work because overall it's it's fascinating the depth of it.
But you talk about Twin Peaks and maybe Lynch's work
in general as a sort of shamanic journey. Has he
explicitly talked about that at all? Is there any in
those reviews that you did in the interviews, as you've
mentioned that.
Speaker 5: He made the statement. I think it's from an interview
he said I learned that, and he may he may
be talking about transf meditation. I remember the context, but
the quote is I learned that just beneath the surface,
there's another world, So he could be talking about the
unconscious probably when he goes when you go into the
transitt meditation state, you're sort of like pulling out of
the subconscious these ideas, and he says, and still different worlds.
If you dig deeper, that's pretty you know, yunion, or
you can find that in the shamanic tradition. And the
reason I said shamanic tradition is because through the darkness
the futures past, a magician longs to see one chance
out between two worlds. Fire walk with me, well, walking
on coals or fire, that's what you know Shamans do,
That's what you know. Indigenous religious rights are usually connected
to that. And I remember reading Iliada at the time,
his book on shamanism, and he talked about it as
not a religion, but a technique of ecstasy, the system
of ecstatic at therapeutic methods, whose purpose is to obtain
contact with parallel worlds, universe of spirits, and to win
over their support in dealing with the affairs of this life.
And I thought that that was just I mean, perfectly
described the idea of firewalk with me doing a firewalk.
But actually that was in Peter Lavende's Sensor Force's trilogy
was the first place I saw that, and he wrote,
the strange little verse is a key to unlocking the mysteries,
not only Twin Peaks but most of Lynch's films. The
suspension of the normal laws of time, hence the term
futures passed, that cyclical history, and the idea that the
magician lives between two worlds, the suspension of normal linear
narratives in favor of a dreamlike hallucinatory set of images.
This is all just shamanic to me, and it fit
perfectly with what I was reading in Iliada at the time,
and Ilioda and these people they are like sort of
famous competitive religion scholars.
Speaker 1: Wow, we just had an interview on this show. Is
one of the most interesting talk I've had in a
long time with this guy who you know, very smart,
but you know, by all appearances he might be a nutcase.
I think that's kind of the beauty of it sometimes.
But he was talking to us about Chigong and this
idea about reality and time being understood best through music
rather than space spatial relationships, right, And you just kind
of reminded me of that. He talks about the I
think it's a three to fifth arrangement as just that
that interplay between the future and the past, and that
you know, music is kind of like this bridge between
the two. It's fascinating.
Speaker 5: In season three of Twin Pigs. To add to that point,
I don't know much about Chinese philosophy or key Gong,
but Lynch does include that idea in season three because
if you remember, at the end of Mahalan Drive, he
says no hi bondo there is no tape. At first
it says it's all recorded, it's just a tape, and
then at the end it's there is no tape, there
is no recording. So we get the idea of well,
is the world like a record playing in a circle?
A record is also a phonograph. In season three, we
get this giant universe phonograph that plays souls into existence,
and so I wrote about how we get this flash
into the spirit realm in season three and we see
Laura's soul being created and sung into existence or played
like a giant instrument through this universal phonograph. And this
actually refers to if you've never seen Robert Flood's Temple
of Music, this was an ancient Renaissance idea. Here's a
little picture of the Temple of Music, and the idea
is that the universe is being sung into existence, and
you can go back to like Pythagoras, who believe that
musical notes and numbers were the secret to reality, and
that reality corresponds to different notes that correspond to the
celestial spheres, and they're being sung into existence or played
into existence. So that's actually what I put in that
chapter because that's apparently some part of what's going on
in season three or twin peaks.
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm really glad I made that connection. And judging
by how much my audience loved that interview, they'll really
love that part.
Speaker 5: And yeah, this would definitely vibe with that. It's called
do you want the specifics? All ready? This the theater
in the palace itself is a kind of giant phonograph
with pipes, and when the male and female aspects come together,
Laura is sung or played into existence. This is her soul.
And this is in the vein of the Pythagorean and
Renaissance Neoplatonic conception of the musica Universalis. Look up the
music at Universalis and you'll notice that in this system,
the celestial and planetary spheres that go in big circles
like a record play the notes that are sung or
it's the musical vibration that's occurring at different pitches, and
that this creates reality and the harmony of the universe.
Various esotric philosophers have theorized upon this, one of which
is Robert Flood's Temple of Music, and so that's a
big part of season three of Twin Peaks.
Speaker 1: Well, and on that note, as far as music goes,
did you look into David Lynch's thoughts on that as
approach to that? I, you know, when I think about
Twin Peaks, I think about sort of synths. I sort
of think about, you know, kind of moody music. But
was there anything worth noting about his approach to scoring
his work.
Speaker 5: I remember him saying stuff in interviews like the sound
is just as important as any scene. And he would
say stuff like every visual place is a world and
a story, and so he would just kind of let
these things come to him. And so like if he
walked into a a park and he liked the visual
scenery there, he would say, well, you know, what's the story?
And he would try to get this inspiration of an
entire world built up from this one event or this
one scene, and then he would do the same thing
with sound and try to build or allow an entire
world to be built out of the scene and the
sound that goes with it, or sometimes he says even
the sound is more important than the scene, and he
would hear a sound and then try to craft the
visual imagery of the scene from the sound, which is
very uncompon. That's not what a lot of directors would do.
So in that regard, yeah, I would say, like David
Lynch saw himself as just as much a musician as
a film director. Again, because if you have this sort
of music, a universalist conception, everything is kind of a music.
Everything is kind of a vibration, so to speak, being
sung into existence or spoken too existence. I mean the
Orthodox or the Bible conception when God speaks it's his
logos that brings reality into existence. So I think even
in Christianity this is there, by the way, if you've
ever read C. S. Lewis's Narnia, in the very first
one before Lionelwitch and Wardrobe, it's a magician's nephew Aslan
does this very thing. He sings Narnia in the world
into existence. So this is also part of by the way,
also it's in Lord of the Rings, I think the
volar singing Middle Earth into existence too. Anyway, this comes
out of neo platonism. I think that's definitely going on
in David Lynch's music as well, and so he probably
sees that as kind of creating reality in a smaller
sense from what the music in the sound is doing.
I'm thinking of a like if you watch the song
he did with christ of Bell, bird of Flames, that
is about the phoenix, which is a bird of flames, right,
which arrives out of ashes, And the video is very bizarre,
it's very Lynch and obviously and she sort of emerges
from a cocoon, but even when she merges from the cocoon,
it's like she is controlled by sort of puppeteer strings. So,
I mean, I'm not sure what we're supposed to We're
supposed to think that pop stars are controlled puppets. I
don't know, but there's a lot of sort of monarch
symbology going on that video.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I hadn't heard of this artist before you
had shown her work in your breakdown in the stream.
Was she very successful as a pop star? It didn't
seem like.
Speaker 5: Crystal Bell's not huge, No, she's more kind of in
the indie and lesser known, but she was very close
to Lynch towards the production time of season three, and
he put her in as one of the FBI agents
in charge of the Blue Rose case. And so if
you watch Firewatk with me, then you remember when Keeper
Sutherland and Chris isaac A talking to David Lynch. He's
explaining that it's a Blue Rose, right, It's a Blue
Rose case, which we later find out is basically like
X Files. It's a case where there's supernatural phenomenon that
the FBI is investigating. So there might be a little
bit of a nod to X Files there, and David
Lynch did cast or they put David Duchovney in Twin Peaks,
says this kind of goofball cross dressing character, so there
might be some nods to two X Files there as well.
But the point being is that Blue Rose is a
we later find out as a supernatural case. But in
season three, Christa Bell plays the FBI agent tasked with
the Blue Rose case. And then all of those songs
that Lynch wrote for a good while, I mean he
did some songs with some other pop stars like like Lee,
but he did a whole album with Crysta Bell, so
they seem to have a pretty close you know, she
was probably his muse for that period, so that's why
I kept referencing her.
Speaker 1: But interesting. Yeah, one artist comes to mind, or a
group that comes to mind, is the Cocktaw Twins. I
don't know if Lynch used their work. Maybe he did.
Speaker 5: A very important sequence at the end of lostwa.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've talked to Chris Knowles here on the
show plenty of times, and he does a great breakdown
of all the strange things with Elizabeth Frasier and the
Cocktaw Twins and how she's connected to the death of
Chris Cornell in some ways, not as as a guilty party,
but maybe in more of this sort of deadly muse siren.
Speaker 5: That's interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I encourage you to look into it because
Chris Chris does a great job similar work to you
with the breakdown of media and and yeah, I think
you both if he did collaborate.
Speaker 5: The guy that wrote The Heroes Worst book.
Speaker 1: He wrote that. Yeah, he was a comic book illustrator,
so he's also versed in that world. But he also
wrote a book about rock and roll and the different metaphysics,
cool aspects of certain bands. And on that note, you
mentioned an actor that Lynch worked with who was in
the OTO, But David Bowie was a part of Fire
Walks with Me and he was you know, Crowley, and yeah,
Crowley fan and a part of the Golden Dawn. And
I just found that kind of interesting that he has
like the Crowley full spread Oto and Golden Dawn and
Lynch is kind of Crowley and in many ways because Crowley, there's.
Speaker 5: This Crowleying element that for sure absolutely and then Mark
Frost intentionally does explain that it's explicitly supposed to be Crowley.
And in terms of the mythos of Twin Peaks, that's
that's in the book. There's like there's a whole there's
a giant picture of Crowley in multiple pages about the
Crowleyan side of the mythos of Twin Peaks. Yeah, I
think you're absolutely right there. And then there was another
day McGowan mentions and I mean I'm not saying Dave
McGowan's person right on every single thing. I mean he
was just sort of theorizing, but he mentions also the
possibility that Dennis Hopper might have also perhaps been either
involved in or interested in the oto. And then Dean
Stockwell is the guy that's singing. He's pantomiming the Roy
Orbison Blue Velvet song in Blue Velvet, and there's this
weird sort of fixation that Dennis Hopper, who's playing the
Crazy Frank character, sort of has this weird obsession with
Dean Stockwell singing the song. It's supposed to be absurd
and funny. It's not like super gay. I mean, it's
kind of gay, but it's it's supposed to be funny
and absurdist because Crazy Frank is so crazy. But Dean
Stockwell is also recurring David Lynch character. He plays a
key role in Dune. And then you have even in Dune.
You know Lynch. I don't know if it's his idea
or him and other people, but they included the sort
of cabbalistic idea within Dune that the Weirding Way allows
you to speak reality into existence, to destroy, to give
a healing word or a killing word. Are you are
you a Dune fan? Have you watched?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen the film a while ago, so I
know about it. I know some of the references.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that and that that's it's not that's not in
I mean, there's the weirding way as in the novel
Dan by Frank Herbert. But this idea that like you
can tune it to like to speak a weapon like
like it's hard. Like you have to watch the movie
Dune and they like speak a word in it like
we kill people.
Speaker 1: We've actually talked about this concept in a different context
as it relates to Mongolian shamanism, and it's a practice
in several different indigenous forms of shamanism where you know,
a practitioner creates a spiritual dart and then sends it
to their you know, adversary through the astral realm, and
it could kill them, it could ill you know, strike.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that has to be where Lynch is getting that.
Speaker 1: Yeautely well. And they even create like sort of like
token spiritual darts and they'll carry them with them so
they'll have like the visualization tool of okay, this is
what it looks like, and each shaman has their own.
So yeah, it's a it's a very sophisticated kind of
spiritual warfare, if you will, and in a in a
kind of a rudimentary astral way where Castaneda writes about
this a little bit. I mean, you could take Castanada's
work with a big grain of salt, because he became
a full fledged cult leader by the end of his life.
But yeah, he writes about, you know, this sort of
astral warfare that the difference Sorcerers.
Speaker 5: I read one of his books. I forget the title
of it, but that makes perfect sense. Yeah, and Lynch
could be pulling from If he was interested in Red Crowley,
then he could have pulled from like kabbalistic elements that
Crowley used. But also he could have gotten it out
of the did you say Tibetan Buddhist or Tibet Yeah.
Speaker 1: The Mongolian Shamanism, which is very close to Tibetan Buddhism.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I could have pulled it too either one.
I mean, the cabalistic idea that you as an individual
may just can you know, speak beings in life ad
into existence like the logos, the cabalist ideas that you
can do the same thing with you know, speaking and
thus magic words, et cetera. So yeah, I'm sure he's
pulling from that as well. Sound is really key to
this whole philosophy of you know, vibrations either being geared
towards the intentionality of life or towards death.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and we mentioned the significance of place names,
but was there any particular significance to the choice in
character names, because there are some, I mean, they're not
exactly run of the mill names. They do fit the
setting in some ways. But but yeah, I wonder if
there was any thought put into the naming of the.
Speaker 5: Usually in literature is and obviously, you know, movies are
also partly literature because they have to be written out
and they're usually short stories or they're you know, screenplays
written out. So yeah, I would say probably names are
generally relevant. I'm trying to think through some of the
the names.
Speaker 1: Well, is it Judy that is married to Leland and
they're the parents of Laura Palmer? Is that right?
Speaker 5: So? And then the deem you haven't seen season three yet.
When you see season three, Judy is a very important
name because she's identified as jow Day, the Mesopotamian demon
right entity. So you have a great example there with
jow Day or Jude.
Speaker 1: Well, I heard you mentioned that, and it made me
think of Crowley's relationships with women that often ended in
very chaotic ways. And you know, Crowley writes about taking
his homosexual lover into the desert and basically starving him
to the point of it was borderline abuse when you
read about it. But yeah, he was attempting to, like,
you know, engage with this Egyptian deity. I forget exactly
which one it was for that particular ritual, but there
is a Crowley in aspect to the possession of the
Mother as well.
Speaker 5: Yeah, she ends up possessed in a key figure, and
that's because it doesn't really make sense. But there's something
about the death of the birth of Laura Palmer is
supposed to signify the into the world, and that the
demonic entity wants to possess Laura and destroy her. It's
it's really kind of out there, and I don't remember
exactly what all the details are at the end of
season three, but I know that much is true. I'm
trying to think of other names that might have significance,
you know, I mean.
Speaker 1: Well, I do find the name Palmer interesting because my
middle name is Palmer, and I looked into this and
the term Palmer originally referred to somebody who had take
holy palm leaves from the Holy Land and bring them
back to Europe on a on a pilgrimage or you know,
during the conquest or what were the crusades. Rather they
would they would be palmers. Basically, they would bring palm
leaves back to Europe for you know, the different what
is it palm Sunday? Right, So, yeah, there could be
something there where she's I don't know what, Laurel, Laura,
maybe Laurel. I mean there's this sort of sort of
virgo quality to that you think of like the Virgin,
a bundle of of grain, things like that.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I'm just trying to think through characters. Fred Madison,
I mean he goes mad Yeah, that's obvious.
Speaker 1: Well, wasn't there a character in what was it one
of his newer or more recent works that had like
a Polish is it Inland Empire where there's like a
Polish I named Balza Bar or something like that.
Speaker 5: Oh, yeah, there may have been. I don't remember the names.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds there was. You referenced it in your
stream and yeah, it was like Balza Bar And I
thought to myself, like, geez, is that a common Polish
name because it sounds a lot like Basil bub you.
Speaker 5: Know, yeah, yeah, that's a good question. Oh, I know,
Bob and Alum and Lamb. I wrote a section on that.
I think those names had significance for sure.
Speaker 1: Was that well, and what is it? Cooper? Agent Cooper?
I mean, anytime I hear the name Cooper, I think
of dB Cooper, the great you know bandit. But there's
also the Baseball Hall of Fame in cooper'stown, which is
incredibly significant to American culture. I mean, Cooper is definitely
in the toponomical realm of things.
Speaker 5: So there the Mark Frost's book makes reference to Jack
Parsons and Parsons attempts at doing rituals to open up
a portal, and that relates, I think to Crowley's you know,
idea of Lamb as this gray looking alien entity. And
I wrote, as we will see this alien imagery becomes
important when we understand the crolling concept of Lamb, the
interdimensional entity that Crowley contacted. The owls are a big
part of swim peaks, right, and the owls also relates
to the esotery and the occult, which I covered in
this chapter. But that's a side issue because what I
said was many were mystified when in season three, agent
Cooper goes into a purple Mob dimension, he seemed to
be able to float and when he was unable to
exit the lodge at the appointed time. This is due
to Bob being unwilling to return late in the latest episode.
When I wrote this the time of season eight or
season three episode eight, we and it's the same thing.
A baphomet looking entity emerged from the atomic void and
the vomit vomiting forth a profane word of ectoplasm. That's
the demon that comes to the Trinity Sands explosion. And
then we see a giving birth to a new child,
Bob amidst a bunch of moonchild eggs. This confusing imagery
could likely come from the works of Kenneth Grant. One
of the most relevant of his works is Beyond the
Mob Zone, which describes the astral plane. Grant describes that
Lamb is the equivalent of the Eastern chant of Alm,
and this is again three letters very similar to Bob.
So lamb olm Bob. That's all the according to Kenneth Grant,
who's they was they like the had so the Oto
had a split. There's like the US branch, and then
there's the British Typhoni and Oto, and Kenneth Grant was
kind of the guy that wrote all the books for
the UK's typhony and Oto. And he says that Set
is the seat or the throne of Isis, and he
sometimes represented as the goddess Typhon, who is who hold
before her the ank of existence. Set is the projection
of the child of Typhon, the crown and conquering child
typified by Lamb. Liber Al prophesied the advent on Earth
of Lamb, and Lamb is pictured as a crown headdress
a dwarf deity. He is the God of the New Aon,
the God in Amenta, or the hidden God, the headless
god of the Gnostics, also equivalent to Sammel. We've heard
the name of Lamb, which applies to man's total awareness,
divided into three stages lam L for dream, A for awake,
site M for deep sleep. Anyone who has successfully used
the formula will know that the egg of Lamb serves
as a space capsule which conveys the traveler to the
desired plane or to mention. And he's talking about in
the astral realm. So there is your dwarf God, the
midgetman from another place, which Kenneth Grant proceeds to connect
these ideas as an entrance into the mob zone, which
is exactly where Cooper ends up in season three.
Speaker 7: Mm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is the oh you.
Speaker 5: Said, Laurel, she's the crown prom Queen of Twin Peaks, Laura,
the crown one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I didn't even remember I wrote that.
Speaker 1: You go well, and it seems like the the climax too,
of a shamanic journey to to go into the other
realm to reach that visionaire exactly.
Speaker 5: That's exactly what is trying to do.
Speaker 1: It's fascinating to see the many layers of that through
Lynch's work. You talk about is it Blue Velvet Or
or Wild at Heart? Maholland Drive and Inland Empire?
Speaker 5: Are the Hollywood trilogy a loose Hollywood?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And it's interesting because the mk Ultra theme is
very shamanic because it's all about trauma, and I mean,
you go into shamanism and they're scarring the face, you know,
putting hooks in their breasts and all sorts of incredibly traumatic,
painful things to you know, reach these states, and you
know when you see it in the film, you realize like, Wow,
there's this you know, real deep spiritual energy here. But
to the average person, maybe it just seems like you said,
you know, it's very funny, or you know, if someone
has a particularly dark sense of humor, or is it
very sensitive to violence or or graphic sex, they might
just think, oh, that's kind of crazy. But you know,
I have this sense that Lynch is trying to like
take the audience into a certain state of mind with
every step of his film. Is it fair to say that,
you know, people who watch Lynch's work are initiated unknowingly.
Speaker 5: That could be an element. I think you see that
with Kubrick. I argued that with the Eyeswade Hut chapter
in Kubrick that its initiation. Maybe with two thousand and
one as well. And yeah, if David Lynch sees the
director or the artist, director, musician as a shaman putting
out his creation, his will and intention into the world,
then that's exactly what magic or the shamanic idea is
intended to do, right, to be the bridge between these
two worlds. And that's why Lynch is always characterizing himself
as the person who goes into the inner subconscious realm
and transnt meditation and pulls the ideas from that space,
which is a kind of liminal space, which is also
perhaps the astral realm, perhaps the unconscious, the realm of potential, whatever,
and then creates a world and puts that created world
into this world. That's the job of shaman is to
be that bridge and to affect the magic. I mean,
I'm saying that's that's the magician type perspective. So yeah,
I think that's what's going on for sure with Lynch,
and that's how he sees himself. And yeah, he probably
would say, I don't know, I'm just speculating. He probably
would say that it is kind of a initiation for
the audience too.
Speaker 1: Mm. And I don't know this. Maybe you know this,
but was he working on anything prior to his death?
And do you think we'll see anything post mortem release
of his body of work?
Speaker 5: A good question? You know what, I got so busy
with the kind of other stuff that I was doing
that I kind of didn't expect David Lynch to pass away.
I wouldn't. I wouldn't kind of that, so I don't
know kind of what he was up to. I was
listening to the You know, I followed the music stuff.
I liked the stuff he was doing with Crystal Bell.
I like, I bought all that stuff, But I hadn't
even kept up, like with what he was doing in
the last few years. So I don't I don't even know.
It's a good question.
Speaker 1: Well, obviously, David Lynch is just one aspect of your work.
You know, how the your you know, esoteric Hollywood trilogy,
not his Hollywood Trilogy.
Speaker 5: Well, he made it into all three. So he's probably
the only director that's gonna be because I'm gonna have
lost highway.
Speaker 1: Well, I was going to ask you, like next to
him and maybe Stanley Kubrick, like, is there any other
director you can think of that you've written about to
this length or or have has made as much of
an impact even if you didn't write about him as much.
Speaker 5: Well, Kubrick was like eighty pages in the first one,
so yeah, you're right about that, and then Lynch was
in Part one, end Part two, and then he'll be
in Part three. So he's definitely up there with Kubrick
for most written about for sure. So yeah, I can't
think of anyone anyone else that would even be close
I don't even think, I mean, Hitchcock is He's not
even a big part of He's like two chapters in
this first one.
Speaker 1: I think, well, and I think Hitchcock's impact was in
a different lane. But it is interesting that, you know,
Lynch Kubrick, they sort of are two geniuses in this
very small space of time. As we started our conversation,
we're saying, this is kind of we're seeing an end
of big budget Hollywood and a move towards low budget
streaming whatever we're going to call that, you know, and
again like what's next? Who could follow something like that up?
It's very you know, it's obviously I don't think you
have an answer, but I'd love to know your thoughts.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's one of the things David Lanch
said towards the end of his life was that he
doesn't think that Hollywood will ever have a place for
what he was again, so there won't be a place
for that kind of a director, you know, trying to
do his own stuff and having final cut and all that.
And that's probably true, and probably because as Jamie Kennedy says,
you know, Hollywood's pretty much going away the way that
it was it's just part of the legacy system, just
like legacy media, legacy education, all those things are kind
of dying away. So you know what will emerge, what
new forms can come about that remains to be seen.
Hopefully we can have, you know, just if we have
a lot more decentralization of the Internet, just like we
think about bitcoin and money as decentralized. Now, if we
think about maybe the arts getting more and more decentralized,
maybe we can have you know, successful independent stuff. You know,
maybe wealthy people start putting money into this kind of stuff.
I don't know, and then you can have the au
tour director coming making a comeback. But it'll have to
be something independent and somehow with money behind independent stuff,
which is possible.
Speaker 1: Well, and I mean with the Internet, is there's an
open talent pool for people who you know.
Speaker 5: That's what I'm getting out there. I don't know how
to work, but maybe something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I don't imagine that there will be a
follow up esoteric YouTube or anything like that, but who knows.
Maybe mister Beast and his peers will give you enough
to write about. But I don't really think that's your
interest though. I doubt that you're watching mister Beasts very often.
Speaker 5: I've not really watched mister Best. I mean I know
of him, but I don't. I know, it's like you know,
game show type challenge stuff.
Speaker 1: It's kid minded stuff. It's no adults that are saying
or watching mister Beast. But it does seem like that's
where the only money in Hollywood is is in kids
entered kids movies for that matter. I mean they try,
there's always that sort of subtle kind of oh well,
we want to make this for the kids, but we
got to entertain the adults as well. And I feel
like there's a certain sector of of that that you
can just brush off as all they're just trying to
make adults laugh. But do you think that kids films
have have because of you know, all the money that's
going into that, you know, those films now, like the
brunt of the symbolism is now being shoved into those
films rather than maybe how it was in the past.
Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe, you know. I don't. I don't. I honestly
don't see many kids things, so I don't even know.
I mean I've seen like some cartoons and you know,
stuff that's just like Crowley symbolism and satanic stuff in
the cartoons like from Disney and whatnot in the last
you know, ten years. But I don't really see a
lot of those kid films, so I don't know. I
imagine everything's just baced around, you know, profit motives, and
hence they rely, like you said, on a lot of
children's entertainment and rebooting stuff and sequels and prequels. They
don't really nobody really seems interested in anything like you know,
new stuff. It's it's really it's a really weird time.
I don't even know.
Speaker 1: I well, in this atmosphere, I think, you know, things
like obviously podcasting, which I'm not saying that to pat
ourselves on the back, but you look at the way
podcasting has kind of taken over what was once mainstream media.
I mean, look at someone like Shane Gillis, Joe Rogan,
Kill Tony and all of the other comedians. I mean,
you've worked with Sam Hyde, and I think everything that
he's done since leaving Adult Swim to like keep that
brand going and remain authentic and create very interesting, hilarious content.
It's it's incredible. So to talk about the the talent
pool that exists I mean seems like if we're gonna
look at someone like Shane Gillis, albeit you know, he's
pretty controversial connected to conspiracy podcast war Mode, Like these
things are starting to be a little bit more mainstream,
would you say, right, Like, it seems like we're heading
towards maybe the left becoming you know, abysmal, whereas the center,
maybe even the right will start to become funded more
because a lot of this comedy it's being picked up
by the right, but it's not it's centered. It's just
a reaction to how crazy the left has been.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you're right about comedy having some success,
definitely moving in that direction. But you don't see comedy
movies anymore, you know what I mean. Like in the
nineties and the two thousands, I mean there was just
comedy movies all the time, and then that kind of
like the more we saw the woke stuff, the more
comedy movies are pretty much just gone. Very rarely do
I see comedy movies that I think are funny that
I enjoy. I did like Y two K, I like
Communey's stuff. I think his his stuff's pretty good. But
that's you and far between. So yeah, I think the
comedians were kind of just forced into the podcast domain
and you know, obviously still doing stand up but for
the but for the unique art form that is film,
which is a combination of so many other art forms.
And that's what's so amazing about movies is that it's music,
it's writing, it's acting, it's set design, it's visual cinematography, photography,
playing with time through editing. I mean, it's all these
things into one art form, which I think makes it
so powerful, Like that is something that needs to be
recovered somehow, and that the problem is that that takes money,
and it takes a lot of people, and you know,
the right wing and even the center or whatever, they
didn't focus on the arts. They just sort of let
the left have all of the art for the last
fifty hundred years. And that's a that was a huge
mistake because then the left can use the radical left especially,
can try to force everybody into their idea of what
the arts are, which is activism and insanity, and then
you get totally woke arts, which shuts down creativity and
it destroys it. So I don't know, again, somebody there,
there'll have to be some new forms that emerge. I
don't know how they'll if they'll be independent production studios funded.
Maybe Mel Gibson gives, I don't know, one hundred million
dollars to some production company that's not bound by Woke, don't.
I'm just throwing ideas, you know, and then they start making,
you know, I mean there's already Icon films, which is
his thing. But I'm saying, like, you know, where's the
full production films that are not these corny like pure
flicks or I've never I've never seen a Daily Wire movie.
I don't know. Maybe they're good, I don't know, but
like I don't know, it's just something more than that,
do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely no. And you make a great point. I mean,
growing up, I was born in ninety four, so I
think I'm a little bit younger than you. But growing up,
I'm sure this was similar for you. Like the whole
like language that people would speak to relate to each
other was through movies, like dumb comedy movies. Wheneverone would
come out, everybody would be talking about it.
Speaker 10: You know.
Speaker 1: That was how a lot of people related to one
another is through you know, what movies they liked and
the fact that that has, you know, disappeared. I think
video games have definitely played a role in that, especially,
you know, because we have this generation gap where now
there's a huge, you know, missing link between the people
who loved movies and now there's like my generation seems
like is obsessed with video games.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think you're like, the younger you get,
the less they care about movies, which to me is
a huge generation gap difference.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm not blaming anybody, understand, Like, if you're
raised with playing video games, that's gonna be what's normal
to you. And if you weren't, you know, if you
didn't grow up watching all these eighties and nineties movies,
then yeah, it's going to be a different experience for you.
But I don't know, I just I don't want to
see the art form go away or turn into something
weird that's not movies, you know what I mean. I mean,
there's always a trade off, right, there was a lot
of negatives to the older, legacy Hollywood studio system, but
there's also things that we're going to lose that will
be unfortunate. I'm glad to have podcasts and you know,
comedians and everybody being able to do podcasts. But I
mean that's not the sum totality of like the arts,
you know what I mean. I mean podcasts are great,
but I mean they're not the highest art form. You know,
podcasts are really just the new talk radio, which is
which is fine. But you know, humans want stories. They
want Apocalypto and Any Jones and Star Wars like that's
what humans like. They like stories, not just you know,
people yapping. And I'm not against people yopping. I do
internet yupping all day long for a job, so it's great.
But you know, film movies are just an amazing art
form like no other art form.
Speaker 1: I'm with you. This might sound like a Vinyl hipster
type of take, but I wonder if the digital you know,
technology that has replaced that analog reality of what film was.
I don't know how much you know, reels are still
involved in modern filmmaking, but if they are digitizing everything,
I wonder how much that takes away from the quality
and the effect of some of the films. I mean,
obviously you can use s effects to make a film,
have a filter or what have you, but there's a
certain quality to like these old lenses. I mean, that's
why Kubrick went and helped NASA out so intensely, just
so he can film bar Linden, which barely anyone even
cares about now, you know, I mean, right, And it's
it's like, it's it's kind of incredible to think that
this camera technology was so vital to the process of
this storytelling.
Speaker 5: Like there's a real and that's one of those trade
offs is you know, there's never going to be that
look and you can't really even reproduce it. But you know,
I mean, David Lynch talked about this too, because he
filmed in an Empire on a small Sony digital camp
and he was he loved the idea because for him,
it made it a lot easier than having to do
everything with, you know, the older system. So again, there's
always trade offs, there's always pros and cons. So yeah,
I don't know, I'm not I don't know a whole
lot about cameras in tech and all that, so I
can't really speak to it. But you know, it's kind
of like old synthesizers, like we saw We went and
spoke at a horror convention and I did some stand
up and stuff there, which was was a lot of fun,
some comedic stuff, and gave a lecture and we met
Alan Howarth, who's the He did a concert too. He
did a live performance of all the eighties John Carpenter stuff.
So he wrote all the eighties John Carpenter music themes
for like Prince of Darkness, they Live the thing, you know,
all those John Carpenter movies. And you know, we were
talking about synthesizers and sounds and all this, and we
were talking about how, like, I mean, computers can mimic it,
but I don't know, there's just something about like this,
even old synthesizers, which you would think, well, but isn't
that technological? Well yeah, but like old moods and old synthesizers,
like they have a unique sound that I'm not sure
computers can really. Oh yeah, replicate.
Speaker 1: No, I'm with you one hundred percent. I mean you
can even get into the occult realm of led Zeppelin,
you know, doing enchantments over their master tapes, right, and
then every single copy of it had that spell cast
into it. I mean, I don't know how true that is,
might just be rumored, but I was it. Dave McCowan
who wrote about that originally somebody wrote about that originally
that there was.
Speaker 5: I don't know who there is. I mean, that's kind
of been a story going around. I don't know who
the original Maybe for its Springmeer talked about it. I
don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's a reputable source. But interesting. Well, and
on that note, you know, getting out on the road
and whatnot. It's a new year. Do you have anything
planned for twenty twenty five anywhere that the audience can
check you out or follow up with you? So you
doing some stand up?
Speaker 5: Well, every live event we do, we usually include some
forms of me doing comedic stuff. That might be me
doing my cringe course songs. Live, I usually make front
of the crowd quite a bit, so I do some
crowd work and all that kind of stuff. But yeah,
we will always include that in there. But we do
also lectures and talks and book signings and all that.
This last one that we did and Tampa was the
only one that I have scheduled for this year. So
now there's not any upcoming live events. And the main
reason I haven't planned any new live events for myself
is because I'm trying to finish us through Hollywood three
and live events take a lot of planning and effort,
and it's a lot of extra work, so I just
haven't had the time to do the planning for a
new live event. But probably when sother Plywood three gets complete,
we'll schedule some more live events for sure.
Speaker 1: Right on, Well, I look forward to Esoteric Hollywood three.
You said it should be out this year in a
couple months indefinite release, but folks can look forward to
that and follow up with you Jay's analysis. You're on YouTube,
your own website. All that is linked in the description
and people can support you directly through your website and
get access to premium content. Is there anything else that
you'd like to plug or leave the audience with before
we wrap up?
Speaker 5: Now you can just subscribe to the side, or I
got all my monetization and YouTube stuff back so people
can join on the on the YouTube channel as well
to get members content. But yeah, there's all that, And
then you can still get signed copies of the books
at the website and the shop section of my website.
Every book is signed so you don't have to request it.
And then every Friday fourth Hour, Lord Boldemort.
Speaker 1: Right now, you have any hope that YouTube is going
to follow in the Trump's lead that maybe we'll see
an end to this censorship that we've seen for so
many years. I mean, there is this executive order that
implies social media companies can't infringe on people's right to
free speech. But then they also, I guess, have this loophole.
We don't have a right to don't You don't have
a right to be platform to a certain amount of people.
Right that doesn't necessarily, you know, conflate or infringe on
your free speech if we don't platform you. So do
you think YouTube is just going to continue business as
usual or do you have any hope for you know,
good question.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think maybe they wanted to bring that
they wanted to. My first thought was maybe because of
the TikTok band when that happened, that maybe YouTube was
thinking we'll lighten up and bring more people back. But
then supposedly TikTok was just getting bought by some other thing.
I don't know what's going on with that, So I
don't know if that's why. I know that Sargon got remonetized,
I got remonetized, So maybe they were just sort of
loosening up. I don't know. I have no idea. What's
what's going to happen there? It's a good question.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope it does. You know, my channel has
been spared to some extent. I am monetized, but several
of my podcast episodes have been taken down. My interview
with David Ike was hot led molten fire. I published
it and immediately burned right through the internet and was deleted.
So yeah, it's it's incredible what YouTube has done. But
hopefully they bought an old emperor Trump. I'm I'm happy
that he's at least changing some things and and maha
to sounds good. I'm on board with that as well.
Speaker 5: So well, I'm not sure why they remonetized me. I
don't I didn't expect it. I mean I did. I
moved a lot of other maybe somewhat spicy podcasts that
have been up that were even weren't even they weren't
even public. There were some that were just unlisted, and
I thought maybe I should just remove some of those
to some other platform. And then, yeah, they remonetized me.
What I didn't expect it. Well, I'm glad that five
years demonetized and then they let me back.
Speaker 1: So I'm glad to see it. You deserve the support,
and yeah, I encourage you to do a follow up
on the Spies of Hollywood. I think that's an excellent idea.
You mentioned that at the beginning.
Speaker 5: To do that. Yeah, yeah, it would be a good book.
Speaker 1: Would Robert de Niro qualify, do you think? Or is
he just in the pedy?
Speaker 5: You know, probably some of the characters like him would
be in that possible category. Yeah. We've got some role
that are definite spies. Julia Child, Sterling Hayden went to
become a spy for the OSS, Jimmy Stewart spy for
the PI, Kerry Grant spied for OSS in Hollywood. I mean,
so you've got plenty of people who are definites, and
you've got a category of like very likely like a
Ben Affleck type of character, maybe a Robert de Niro
in there. And we know they're at least working with
the Angelia and Jolie. They've at least worked with the
CIA at a very high level on many, many, many films.
Speaker 1: So there's a context of training, yeah, research.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Palm Cruise maybe. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, Well, I look forward to that. I definitely encourage
you to write about that. I think that'd be a hit.
And yeah, man, thank you for spending the time with
us folks. Follow up with Jay. He is very active
on his YouTube channel and I am anticipating another solid
book in Esoteric Hollywood three, so we're all looking forward
to that. Jay, good luck with the final steps and
until next episode, Thank you for listening and immerse yourself
in the moment wherever you are in the now. All right,
And that was our interview with Jay Dyer. I gotta
say I really like Jay's style. I like his work.
He's got a lot of interesting content on his YouTube
and he is better known now for his debates. I
think that's a big part of what he does on
YouTube if you're interested in his thoughts on religion. He
is an orthodox Christian and very interesting content on his
YouTube channel. But he also gets into the pop culture
movie symbolism stuff as well, and you can find all
of that on his channel. Just search Jaydiyer or go
to YouTube dot com slash Jaydyer. You can also go
to his website, Jay'sanalysis dot com. Big shout out to
Jay Dyer for joining me on the show. Very good timing.
We just had Nick Roache fort Jay Dyer is kind
of in the MD universe. He has been helping Sam
Hyde write. He's also a comedian and we just had
Nick Rochefort on the other podcast. I work on Low
Value Mail. So if you so, if if, if, if
you so, I don't know why this is so difficult.
So if you would like to listen to that episode,
it is on the Low Value Mail YouTube channel, and
call in to the Low Value Mail podcast live every
Monday at nine pm Eastern Time. When you call in,
I answer the phones. I am behind the scenes producing
the show. Yeah, so that's right. I produce Danny Pouloschuck's
Low Value Mail and Sam Tripoli's Tinfoil Hat. I am
the booker for that show. I love working in podcasts.
Big shout out to Sam Tripoli. He is the best.
And he's going to be in New Jersey this weekend
at the Dojo of Comedy in Morris Plains, New Jersey.
If you were within a couple hours drive of the area,
or you live in New Jersey, I highly recommend you
come out to the show, even if just to meet me.
If you don't buy tickets, you can still have food
at the wonderful restaurant there it is a full restaurant
and the comedy club is also part of the restaurant,
so very cool stuff. The Dojo of Comedy Morris Plains,
New Jersey. I will be there hanging out with Sam,
hanging out with the people, and I hope to see
you there. So with that, folks, big shout out to
Jay Dyer. Thank you to everybody who has supported the
show and supported me with one time donations. We got
a one time donation from Germany. Shout out to Pascal,
Thank you, my friend. We got a one time donation
from Tanya again, Tanya is the best. Always send in love.
Definitely appreciate Tanya's help. And then what else we got?
I think we got another donation from a new supporter,
and I want to make sure I give them a
shout out as well. So let me just go into
my history here. Yes, we got a donation from jen
if Er and then Elizabeth. Thank you both. And I
did not mean to I did not intentionally mispronounce those names.
That's how they're written on VENMO. Very interesting back to
back people whose names are broken down phonetically. Jen if
Er and Eliza Beth or Elizabeth either way, Thank you
to all of you who support the show with one
time donations. Big shout out to our inner national family
of listeners. Until next episode, immerse yourself in the moment,
wherever you are in the.
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