Speaker 1: It was in Adarsville, Georgia. I was coming back during
Speaker 1: the night. I heard footsteps there back into the right
Speaker 1: of me. My first thought was my friends, and I said, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, that's a good way to get shot guys,
Speaker 1: you know kind of thing. And I didn't hear nothing.
Speaker 1: I stopped, didn't hear anything. I was expecting to hear
Speaker 1: some laughing or something. I started walking again and I
Speaker 1: heard the footsteps. So then I notice to my left.
Speaker 1: I'm looking down and I see a red floating light
Speaker 1: down in the bottom bottom of the valley, and it's
Speaker 1: moving kind of like a drone wood, just super slow.
Speaker 1: There's no bobbing, and it was just slowly moving. And
Speaker 1: then it dawns on me. Cra, crap, crap. I forgot
Speaker 1: about the person behind me. I turned around and I
Speaker 1: look up, and then I glanced back down and the
Speaker 1: red light's gone. So I put my back to a
Speaker 1: tree and do that old turkey hunter patients thing. And
Speaker 1: I sat there for like fifteen twenty minutes, and as
Speaker 1: soon as I take my first step, it starts walking
Speaker 1: with me again.
Speaker 2: How much deception have you picked up on?
Speaker 1: Oh? All the time? You know? I you know? And
Speaker 1: it was something that I started with U when I
Speaker 1: went when I don't know if you'd know this, uh,
Speaker 1: for the first most of my career, or I guess
Speaker 1: the first half now Jesus I'm getting older. I focused.
Speaker 1: I focused on interviews and interrogations and was a poligrapher
Speaker 1: and I just stopped doing polygraphs about a year and
Speaker 1: a half ago. And I did it right. When I
Speaker 1: first started that interview and interrogation process, I actually had
Speaker 1: a mentor, and I belong to the International Association of Interviewers,
Speaker 1: and the whole premise was you need a mentor because
Speaker 1: once you start getting into that world of being able
Speaker 1: to detect deception, you start having well I didn't know
Speaker 1: it at the time, I understand now, but you start
Speaker 1: thinking like everybody's a liar, right, and you start getting
Speaker 1: angry and you know you can't trust anybody, And honestly,
Speaker 1: the mentor is there to help reel you back in
Speaker 1: and say focus, focus, Remember you have to ask this
Speaker 1: question every single time that you think you're spotting someone lying.
Speaker 1: You have to say, what is the intent? And that
Speaker 1: can help answer a lot of questions if you're open minded,
Speaker 1: mainly because a lot of people don't. Their intent is
Speaker 1: not to defraud, you know. You know, it's kind of
Speaker 1: the example I like to give is you're sitting around
Speaker 1: at dinner table with a bunch of people you don't know.
Speaker 1: Everyone's telling stories. Everyone's going to be embellishing those stories
Speaker 1: because they want to fit in, they want to be liked, right.
Speaker 1: Their intent is not to deceive you, not to pull
Speaker 1: one over on you. And then the same thing with eyewitnesses.
Speaker 1: They want to be helpful. And a lot of times
Speaker 1: what happens is when you sit them down and you
Speaker 1: start asking them the hard questions and they realize that
Speaker 1: they really didn't see much, they'll start to embellish because
Speaker 1: now they feel silly. For sometimes they feel silly or
Speaker 1: feel like a crap, what am I doing here? I
Speaker 1: really didn't see as much as I thought I should
Speaker 1: have seen, you know, to be helpful, so they embellish
Speaker 1: a little, you know, so it doesn't look like they're
Speaker 1: wasting someone's time or or something like that. So those
Speaker 1: are all things you have to keep in mind. Is
Speaker 1: you know, what is the intent here? I can tell
Speaker 1: they're being deceptive, And at what point did the truth
Speaker 1: stop and the embellishment start? You know, because a lot
Speaker 1: of these people they saw something right. But then you
Speaker 1: have the confirmation bias. You know, all these people, you know,
Speaker 1: they want to believe so bad and they want to
Speaker 1: have finally had that experience that they may overlook some
Speaker 1: key details and they'll even fight you on it. Once
Speaker 1: you're able to like prove no, they'll still fight you.
Speaker 1: But it's what you decide to do with the information,
Speaker 1: how you decide to act during the conversation. You know,
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of things. But I almost stopped listening
Speaker 1: entirely to some podcasts just because of that, where you
Speaker 1: can hear that, oh, that's full of shit. You know,
Speaker 1: that's crap. I don't want to hear that, you know,
Speaker 1: I guess a waste of my time. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: learn stuff, and I can automatically tell you're lying, just
Speaker 1: knock it off. And then there's the others where you go, oh,
Speaker 1: that's interesting, that's interesting. This interesting. Wait crap, now they're
Speaker 1: adding you know, but I mean, you can't prove all
Speaker 1: that either. That's just you know, experience. But yeah, in general, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I keep an open mind. I've had stuff
Speaker 1: happen to me in the woods so that's kind of
Speaker 1: where a lot of this came from.
Speaker 2: Before I butcher anything. Is it ziggin or zigen Ziganigan. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was actually real nice for you to ask. So
Speaker 2: just to kind of get it rolling here, give as
Speaker 2: much or as little information about your professional background as
Speaker 2: you want, you know, kind of let people know why
Speaker 2: they should be listening to you whenever it comes to
Speaker 2: this stuff.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, sure. So you know I told you before
Speaker 1: I started off. I'm still a current law enforcement officer
Speaker 1: here in Georgia in the North Metro Atlanta area, coming
Speaker 1: up on twenty two years, and I hadn't always done
Speaker 1: crime scene. And what I do now about nine years that,
Speaker 1: besides being on patrol, was as a person's detective. And
Speaker 1: every agency names or calls their person's detective something different,
Speaker 1: so it could be anything from robbery, homicide, you know,
Speaker 1: sexual assaults, things like that. So I did that for
Speaker 1: a long time, and then finally a spot opened up
Speaker 1: in crime scene and that's where I quickly found out
Speaker 1: that I should have been doing that all along. It's
Speaker 1: almost a you know, a part. Now you're like, are
Speaker 1: you kidding me? You're paying me to do this? You
Speaker 1: pay me to read research, go to classes, learn as
Speaker 1: much as I can, and it's it's something that I
Speaker 1: should have been doing all along, and I fully embraced it.
Speaker 1: So I got the pleasure of going to the National
Speaker 1: Forensic Academy in Oakridge, Tennessee. Sometimes they call it the
Speaker 1: body Farm. Right then I became a certified crime scene investigator,
Speaker 1: a certified latent fingerprint examiner. I got the pleasure of
Speaker 1: going back and acting as an adjunct instructor sometimes, but
Speaker 1: that passed right after COVID, the the guy who actually
Speaker 1: taught a lot of my my beginning classes in the
Speaker 1: fingerprint world, he actually took a full time job there.
Speaker 1: Some like there's no reason for me, I have to
Speaker 1: go back, and I was, it was jokingly telling like,
Speaker 1: damn it, man, you're killing me. You know. I was
Speaker 1: enjoying being able to do that. But so, you know,
Speaker 1: the story continues, and then so as it progresses. My
Speaker 1: my work colleague, he's working on his doctorate in bloodstained
Speaker 1: pattern analysis, and it would turn out that we both
Speaker 1: have similar interest but focusing on two different worlds. So
Speaker 1: he's focusing focusing on bloodstain, I'm focusing focusing on latent fingerprints,
Speaker 1: and uh, but we both do crime scene reconstruction, shooting
Speaker 1: incident reconstruction, and I'm cross trained in his field. It's
Speaker 1: just not love, he's cross trained in mind. And lately,
Speaker 1: within the with the past couple, I would say lately
Speaker 1: the past now three years, I've been heavily focusing on
Speaker 1: being able to uh understand the distortion and recognizing the
Speaker 1: context within the actual friction image patterns that we are collecting,
Speaker 1: you know, like understanding the movements what was happening while
Speaker 1: they were being deposited. Then it became a thing where
Speaker 1: I was working on that, and then I ended up
Speaker 1: you know, as you progress in your field and you know,
Speaker 1: start testifying in court. If you're good, you're good. If
Speaker 1: you're bad, people know that too, right, So our lab
Speaker 1: ended up being one of those that were helping train
Speaker 1: local csis around us and giving instructions, classes, teaching as well.
Speaker 1: I act as a verifier for several agencies around that's
Speaker 1: probably about seven, and I work fingerprints for about five
Speaker 1: of those agencies on a full time basis, not just
Speaker 1: my own. Uh So I see a lot of fingerprints.
Speaker 1: I'm super super busy, and that's what made me want
Speaker 1: to honestly you know when during the distortion UH studies
Speaker 1: is when I became interested of you know, can I
Speaker 1: find some good dermal ridges inside these casts or inside
Speaker 1: some pictures of the impressions in the ground, and you know,
Speaker 1: could I help, you know, if I can't be out
Speaker 1: in the field doing this, maybe I can help spread
Speaker 1: the world on how to collect evidence and you know,
Speaker 1: do that properly. But also maybe I can help look
Speaker 1: at some of these things to help determine authenticity as
Speaker 1: far as friction ridges and dermal ridges and things like that.
Speaker 2: So how did that all come about? Like why were
Speaker 2: you specifically interested in bigfoot and even applying your knowledge
Speaker 2: to that field.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I had some interesting experiences in the woods.
Speaker 1: My brother and I were turkey hunters, don't I don't
Speaker 1: hunt them anymore. So the short and suitet of it is,
Speaker 1: when you are looking for turkey, you have to find
Speaker 1: out where they roost for the night, where they're gonna
Speaker 1: you know, sleep. They go up in the trees they roost,
Speaker 1: and the tom, the male turkey, he goes up and
Speaker 1: he roosts in a different in a different tree. So
Speaker 1: if you're there when they go to roost, then you
Speaker 1: know their location, So that means in the morning you
Speaker 1: can sneak back in while it's still dark and be
Speaker 1: between them. And then when the tom comes down and
Speaker 1: the hens come down, and you know the basically you're
Speaker 1: in the way at the top, so now you've got
Speaker 1: them coming towards you. That's the whole goal. So there
Speaker 1: are several times where you know you're there for them roosting,
Speaker 1: so that means it's the evening, it's getting dark, and
Speaker 1: that means you're, however far away from camp you are.
Speaker 1: You know, you got that walk back alone in the
Speaker 1: woods by yourself. Never once, you know, out of the
Speaker 1: years that I was doing that, that I ever feel
Speaker 1: uncomfortable think there was anything else out there until I
Speaker 1: had a couple of weird incidences which at least i'd
Speaker 1: never attributed and I still don't attribute it to Bigfoot,
Speaker 1: but I do. I can't explain what they are, which
Speaker 1: opens my mind to the possibility for the other. So
Speaker 1: my my sergeant and my other cop friends who are
Speaker 1: leasing this property. My sergeant in particular is really big
Speaker 1: into Bigfoot, the shows. He was already looking at Bigfoot mapping,
Speaker 1: probably Jax, you know, b Fro all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: and it became a like a conversation piece around the campfire.
Speaker 1: Then us kind of bonding over it, and it just
Speaker 1: kind of organically grew from that point to where we're
Speaker 1: sitting around the fire having beer, watching all the big
Speaker 1: Foot shows, you know, laughing at some of the silly
Speaker 1: stuff as cops, you know, go oh, that's a bunch
Speaker 1: of crap. Buy in that dude's line, you know, saying
Speaker 1: silly stuff like that, while we you know, we have
Speaker 1: our own commentary. But that's how it kind of grew.
Speaker 1: It just kind of grew naturally to there. And then,
Speaker 1: like everybody at work knows, you know, I started getting
Speaker 1: Christmas ornaments, you know, like Bigfoot Christmas ornaments, you know,
Speaker 1: hanging on my door at Christmas times. Stickers, coasters, coffee mugs,
Speaker 1: you know, stuff people were picking up. So it hadn't
Speaker 1: been a really bad thing for the most part, absolutely accepted,
Speaker 1: mainly because the things that I've done, you know, like
Speaker 1: we were talking before, I'm pretty much pretty much bound
Speaker 1: to what I can and can't say, just like everyone
Speaker 1: would expect, you know, since I'm still employed by them, right,
Speaker 1: But I've been told that as long as I keep
Speaker 1: it professional and anything that I write, as long as
Speaker 1: it's on the same level as what I would put
Speaker 1: out professionally, then it's fine. So that's well. I've been
Speaker 1: like writing, like I've written several friends or reports for
Speaker 1: a couple of people on some you know, big name
Speaker 1: casts and stuff like that, so they could see it.
Speaker 1: So that's been fun. So now I have a couple
Speaker 1: of people sending me some like really nice casts for
Speaker 1: me to take a look at and right, and that
Speaker 1: was really my main goal. But you know, besides trying
Speaker 1: to help everybody else, I was hoping I could start
Speaker 1: actually analyzing stuff, which is now started to happen. So
Speaker 1: that's pretty neat.
Speaker 2: Have your thoughts on the subject changed any since you
Speaker 2: began this journey?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I've gone through a roller coaster ride
Speaker 1: of you know, just like anybody would, I think you
Speaker 1: run across or you have a a preconception of how
Speaker 1: people are, and unfortunately, I was one who let some
Speaker 1: of the TV personalities, you know, lead me in a
Speaker 1: certain direction of thinking, you know, Okay, you can trust
Speaker 1: these guys, or you know, they seem professionally, seem nice,
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that, or hey, you know, you
Speaker 1: need to read this book. This anthropologist wrote this, you
Speaker 1: know this anthropo, you know this scientist wrote that about
Speaker 1: the subject, and then you read it and you realize
Speaker 1: that a lot of this is for the entertainment industry
Speaker 1: instead of furthering the research. Now, I almost stopped completely
Speaker 1: because of that, But then I ran across several people
Speaker 1: who are actually really serious in the field who kind
Speaker 1: of gave me a different direction to go on and
Speaker 1: started helping me, you know, with casts and kind of saying, hey,
Speaker 1: stop stop stop thinking that way. You know, here's some stuff.
Speaker 1: I've seen some casts that were, you know, like big
Speaker 1: time cast that I call bs on. Then I've seen
Speaker 1: some casts come across recently that, you know, have me
Speaker 1: a little perplexed. I'm not finished with one particular one.
Speaker 1: I go ahead and say, Cliff Barrettman sent me one
Speaker 1: that I'm actually a little perplexed on right now, and
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that I don't find anything that makes me
Speaker 1: say otherwise. You know, that's always the hope. Yeah, But
Speaker 1: I treat each one like it's hoaxed and go from
Speaker 1: there right and or misidentified or you know something, because honestly,
Speaker 1: I don't have what we call an exemplar, you know,
Speaker 1: an actual bigfoot footprint or bigfoot cast that we know
Speaker 1: for sure we watched a big foot make it, and
Speaker 1: I can say that is actually from the foot, right.
Speaker 1: We don't have anything like that. We have speculation and
Speaker 1: we have good, you know, contextual evidence and things like that,
Speaker 1: but nothing definite.
Speaker 2: Have you examined the Patterson track cast?
Speaker 1: No, I have a copy of it, and it's a
Speaker 1: very very poor copy. I don't, you know, that's that's
Speaker 1: one of my things, you know. If I hadn't, I
Speaker 1: can't speak to it. Yeah, you know, really, if I
Speaker 1: haven't actually seen it, seen it. So, I mean, I
Speaker 1: actually have it on my wall, you know, behind my
Speaker 1: I look at it all the time, and right above it,
Speaker 1: I right above it, I have a bear cast, you know,
Speaker 1: to remind me of, you know, what a bear looks
Speaker 1: like and what this looks like. And that took me
Speaker 1: down a whole other road, because now I'm in the
Speaker 1: middle of a big bear research project. I figured I
Speaker 1: couldn't speak authoritatively and say something made it looks like
Speaker 1: a bear and a cast if I don't know anything
Speaker 1: about bears. Oh my god. You know, you just kept
Speaker 1: on going down in a rabbit hole.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's part of the problem. And I'm sure you've
Speaker 2: already encountered. I mean, just that question that I just
Speaker 2: asked you about the Patison track. I know recently on
Speaker 2: Facebook you posted some stuff about a Freeman cast.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I did.
Speaker 2: And you're not in a great position in your line
Speaker 2: of work whenever it comes to Bigfoot to make a
Speaker 2: lot of friends.
Speaker 1: No, and I'm probably not going to make a lot
Speaker 1: of friends in the Bigfoot world, you know. But my
Speaker 1: goal isn't to try to make friends, and my goal
Speaker 1: isn't to try to get speaking engagements. I'm actually searching
Speaker 1: for the answer myself. So and one of the things
Speaker 1: that we have to do. Remember when I was talking
Speaker 1: about having you know, what we call an exemplar, you know,
Speaker 1: like that that awesome control sample. We don't have it,
Speaker 1: but unfortunately we are using a lot of famous casts
Speaker 1: from the past as exemplars. So my first thought was, well,
Speaker 1: let me take a look at it. And luckily enough,
Speaker 1: I have some first generation copies of these things, you know,
Speaker 1: with those minute little details in them, and I'll go
Speaker 1: ahead and tell you that, uh, you know, and I
Speaker 1: think we allude to this before it's hard to talk
Speaker 1: about intent as well. You know, so many different things
Speaker 1: can happen when people find, you know, find an impression.
Speaker 1: You know, so if you actually found a real bigfoot track,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of things, you know, especially Cliff
Speaker 1: likes to bring this up. People like to put their
Speaker 1: hands in it and go, oh my god, look at this,
Speaker 1: and they touch them right, you know, right then is
Speaker 1: not an intent to transform or manipulate that impression in
Speaker 1: any kind of way. It was just a I'm not
Speaker 1: thinking and oh my gosh, look at this and they
Speaker 1: touch it. You know. It's unfortunate because later it's hard
Speaker 1: to prove the intent. You know, you can't prove what
Speaker 1: they you know, what happened unless there was a bunch
Speaker 1: of people there. But then even so, at this point
Speaker 1: in the game, I didn't even matter if there was
Speaker 1: a bunch of people there. No one's going to believe you.
Speaker 1: So and then you have you know, and then I'm
Speaker 1: finding with my bare study that during certain times of
Speaker 1: the year, bear paulpads when to get deposited into certain
Speaker 1: types of soils and substrates. There dermal ridges can look
Speaker 1: like and sometimes mimic human friction ridges. So it's going
Speaker 1: to take more than like a patch of dermal ridges
Speaker 1: here and a patch there, because you got people accidentally
Speaker 1: touching the cast before it's dry enough. When they're pulling
Speaker 1: it out, they're depositing it unknowingly, you know. So there's
Speaker 1: all these things are like I speak to like, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna if I find something like that, I'll never
Speaker 1: talk to say it was intentionally manipulated as a hoax,
Speaker 1: because we just don't know that. There's so many different
Speaker 1: ways that friction ridges or dermal ridges whatever can't or
Speaker 1: that pattern itself can come to be in the bottom
Speaker 1: of a cast because a lot of times they're not
Speaker 1: even in the in the substrate there, you know, Like
Speaker 1: I said, they're deposited while someone's pulling out a wet cast.
Speaker 1: So you know, I it's it's disappointing sometimes, but because
Speaker 1: I could, I would hate to find out that you
Speaker 1: might actually have a real Bigfoot impression that has dermal
Speaker 1: ridges in it that look to be manipulated, all right,
Speaker 1: because that would be like the worst scenario, however, because
Speaker 1: you might actually have a real impression with something that
Speaker 1: now is written off as evidence because the dermals don't
Speaker 1: fit all right, so that could be a bad scenario
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: You mentioned the the cast from Cliff. Is there any
Speaker 2: other evidence that you've seen that you believe might be legit.
Speaker 1: I haven't gotten my hands on a lot of those,
Speaker 1: like I call like first generation good detail copies. I've
Speaker 1: seen photos of stuff like some I've seen some photos
Speaker 1: that made me go hmm, but that was more for
Speaker 1: like a handprint or an arm impression or something like
Speaker 1: that on some glass. The issue was is again with
Speaker 1: the technique of documenting it. You know, these things are
Speaker 1: coming in, I see them, and as soon as I
Speaker 1: blow it up to look at the ridges or look
Speaker 1: at the details, it becomes pixelated, right, And you know,
Speaker 1: and that's a that's a huge problem. That's and I
Speaker 1: think that's gonna be a huge problem until we start
Speaker 1: thinking differently about collecting evidence. Because I've been seeing a
Speaker 1: lot of you know, like a lot of these expeditions,
Speaker 1: they're following what some people have told them is the
Speaker 1: right way. And I guess, and I mean, you know
Speaker 1: what we've been told this at our own lap too,
Speaker 1: that we're overkill, that we have such high expectations for
Speaker 1: things that we should but we're not we're we're not
Speaker 1: gonna tone it down. We're always going to be you know,
Speaker 1: like uh, you know, it should always be to a
Speaker 1: higher standard because, honestly, if we come across a piece
Speaker 1: of evidence that may actually be a bigfoot, we're talking
Speaker 1: about an undiscovered species, and it's not being treated as such.
Speaker 1: You know, it should be you know, almost to the
Speaker 1: level of you find evidence. It should be treated like
Speaker 1: a homicide. You know, you have you have potential, DNA,
Speaker 1: you have, you know potential you know, friction ridges. There's
Speaker 1: so many different things that we should be going after
Speaker 1: instead of just immediately casting it and then holding up
Speaker 1: the cast as the cast is the proof. And I
Speaker 1: think that's a problem. It's almost like collecting souvenirs instead
Speaker 1: of evidence, and that just honestly needs to change. As
Speaker 1: far as the people who are interested in actually using
Speaker 1: science to investigate things, I get it. Not everybody's into
Speaker 1: that or that's not even their goal, and I totally
Speaker 1: understand that too. But I think for the people who
Speaker 1: say that that is their goal, then some things need
Speaker 1: to change because it hasn't been working for the last
Speaker 1: web fifty sixty years, right, I mean, right, So something
Speaker 1: needs to change.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that. Where are the researchers screwing up
Speaker 2: at and are they getting any of it right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the main thing is, well, the right thing
Speaker 1: is they're going out right, They're actually going out and looking,
Speaker 1: and they're doing I know a lot of them. You know,
Speaker 1: they're doing their best, their trying experiments with food, all
Speaker 1: different kinds of things. And I think the biggest part
Speaker 1: of the problem is the documentation. And quite honestly, I
Speaker 1: understand why when I first went to crime scene and
Speaker 1: you know, you've seen all these shows, all these movies,
Speaker 1: all this cool equipment. I'm going to learn how to
Speaker 1: do this. So then I go to a crime scene,
Speaker 1: I do all that cool stuff, and then I spend
Speaker 1: two freaking days doing reports and documenting everything. Right, That
Speaker 1: is boring. It's boring. So now we're at the point,
Speaker 1: for like Bigfoot, that something as simple as just being
Speaker 1: told how to take the picture correctly. So we belonged
Speaker 1: to a cold case task force. And one of the
Speaker 1: things that we immediately noticed is in the beginning when
Speaker 1: we first started is we wanted to judge. We wanted
Speaker 1: to say, oh my god, you know, like, why didn't
Speaker 1: you do this? Why didn't you do that? And then
Speaker 1: after doing it for for a while, you start to
Speaker 1: get into the mindset of the time period. You know,
Speaker 1: what they had, what they were thinking at the time,
Speaker 1: not really their fault, that's the way things were done then.
Speaker 1: And then that opened our mind up to, well, what
Speaker 1: could we do differently? So we now investigate any homicide
Speaker 1: or you know, death investigation as it's a homicide. But
Speaker 1: if we know for sure it's a homicide, we're going
Speaker 1: to investigate this and we're going to take it and
Speaker 1: document it to a certain level that's beyond what we
Speaker 1: think is needed at the time. And that's in case
Speaker 1: the case goes cold, because we never know, you know,
Speaker 1: if the case goes cold, technology changes, methods change, the
Speaker 1: way we think changes, and some investigator ten years from
Speaker 1: now will be looking back and saying the same dang
Speaker 1: thing that I was saying about the people from the eighties, right,
Speaker 1: They'll be going, well, why didn't you do this? And
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, I took the whole house. It's all right,
Speaker 1: you're documented, go forth and from And that's why I won't.
Speaker 1: That was one of the reasons why I started looking
Speaker 1: at the older casts. But the basics are you know,
Speaker 1: when you're photographing, you know, handprint, fingerprint, footprint in the ground.
Speaker 1: The most basic thing is I mean there's two main
Speaker 1: things really, but that picture has to be parallel. The
Speaker 1: camera has to be parallel to the ground. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just that simple. If you have the camera angled
Speaker 1: in any kind of direction, it'll distort size. And there's
Speaker 1: just that's just how it is. You can make things
Speaker 1: look larger than what they are. And I've shown somebody
Speaker 1: this as when we were talking about bigfoot. I took
Speaker 1: a picture, you know, my own shoe impression, angled the
Speaker 1: camera just so and said, check out this huge print.
Speaker 1: And right there when I said huge, I introduced a
Speaker 1: little bias to them. Yeah all right. And then they
Speaker 1: saw the photo and they're like, oh my god, yeah
Speaker 1: that is big. And then and I showed them the
Speaker 1: next photo and I was like, actually, it looks like this,
Speaker 1: and it's the parallel picture of like my size twelve
Speaker 1: foot and I'm like, it doesn't look so big anymore,
Speaker 1: does it. They're like no. I'm like that's the problem.
Speaker 1: Taking pictures at angles distorte things. And I totally get it.
Speaker 1: People are holding their cameras to the sides and stuff
Speaker 1: because the sunlight. You know, there's lighting issues and things
Speaker 1: like that, and they just haven't been shown how to
Speaker 1: take the picture properly. But if you want somebody like
Speaker 1: me or you know, another science person to look at
Speaker 1: this evidence and actually be able to give an opinion
Speaker 1: on something, then it has to be done correctly. So
Speaker 1: you know, even when I'm documenting things, I'm documenting it
Speaker 1: in a way for another expert that's not within my
Speaker 1: field that may see something that I don't, Just like
Speaker 1: the bigfoot field investigator when they're taking pictures of their
Speaker 1: impressions on the ground or on the glass, should be
Speaker 1: taking pictures in a way for someone else who knows
Speaker 1: more to be looking at it. So you know, it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's a full circle kind of thing because
Speaker 1: you never know what another expert may see if it's
Speaker 1: documented correctly. And then the other thing is is not
Speaker 1: just close up pictures of that print, but of the
Speaker 1: entire area. And you know, people say why it puts
Speaker 1: it into context, right, you know where you found the foot,
Speaker 1: And again another expert like a biologist might be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I see certain trees over here. They might have been
Speaker 1: there for that food, or I see a path they're heading,
Speaker 1: you know in which direction? You know that makes sense,
Speaker 1: there's a water source right here, you know, is you
Speaker 1: document like a three hundred and sixty degree thing. And
Speaker 1: then like in crime scene where we might see a
Speaker 1: car or a person within that three hundred and sixty
Speaker 1: degree photograph thing that we did, we might see you know,
Speaker 1: another suspect or a vehicle that may have been involved
Speaker 1: in just like a big foottery. We may see a
Speaker 1: tree branch or a tree structure or something that you
Speaker 1: didn't notice before that now you have evidence because you
Speaker 1: never know what's going to be valuable later. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like when we take a billion photos of a
Speaker 1: side at crime scene and then you know, the case
Speaker 1: detectives looking at it and they're like, oh, holy crap,
Speaker 1: look at this receipt on this desk. You know, we
Speaker 1: didn't think that they had been to a car wash
Speaker 1: or you didn't take a car wash that you know
Speaker 1: had anything to do with it. But then later it
Speaker 1: comes into play and we find out we have a
Speaker 1: picture of it. I know, the same thing. Can you
Speaker 1: know hold true in this? You know it's technically an investigation.
Speaker 1: Just two little things context and parallel pictures that would
Speaker 1: be a great help documentation. Document It always comes down
Speaker 1: the documentation. You should see. You should see my form
Speaker 1: I have listened. You know, it comes down to what's
Speaker 1: the weather like seven days before? What's the weather like
Speaker 1: seven days after? What's the altitude nearest food source? And
Speaker 1: if I'm interviewing somebody, you know, are are you into bigfoot?
Speaker 1: Were you here looking for bigfoot? You know? And now
Speaker 1: I'm asking for you know, are there any biasing questions?
Speaker 1: You know, stuff like that, you know, you know, have
Speaker 1: you been here before? Is this your first time here?
Speaker 1: You know kind of stuff. You know, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of questions that I have, I think I have like
Speaker 1: a I made for some people. You know, when I
Speaker 1: first started crime scene, we had a checklist, you know,
Speaker 1: until we got used to doing things, you know, like
Speaker 1: a six page you know checklist basically of you know,
Speaker 1: don't forget to get this, don't forget to get ambient temperature,
Speaker 1: accillary temperature of the person that's deceased in front of
Speaker 1: youew temperature outside, but the humidity like an the insect
Speaker 1: activity of so who what when? You know, it just
Speaker 1: goes on and on and on and so I made
Speaker 1: some forms like that, for so you heard a sound,
Speaker 1: so you found something you want to collect for DNA.
Speaker 1: So you found a footprint of fingerprint. So I got
Speaker 1: like all these forms for now, answer all these questions.
Speaker 2: You know that actually takes us right into a question
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you if you were put in
Speaker 2: the position of a bigfoot researcher who has been contacted
Speaker 2: by a witness and they say, hey, I came out
Speaker 2: of my house and over there at the tree line
Speaker 2: was a big foot stand there looking at me, and
Speaker 2: it turned around and walked off into the woods. How
Speaker 2: would you personally go about conducting that witness investigation?
Speaker 1: First, it would be a sit down interview, you know,
Speaker 1: like in a room. And I understand we're not law
Speaker 1: enforcement here, so ideally you don't want that interview like
Speaker 1: in their own home. You know, sometimes you can't you
Speaker 1: can't help it. They don't need to feel it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: It just there needs to be an interview process, especially
Speaker 1: by someone who's conducted interviews before. And mainly I think
Speaker 1: the problem I see what the interview is being conducted
Speaker 1: now are the leading questions, you know, like when a
Speaker 1: person's telling the story and they pause. Then they start
Speaker 1: giving them examples of what they could say, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, like when you say what did the and
Speaker 1: they're like uh, and then you go was it brown? Black?
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh yeah, it was black? Like what? No? No,
Speaker 1: you you hold that pause and you let them finally speak.
Speaker 1: You don't you don't offer suggestions. I think that's one
Speaker 1: of the biggest things that I see, you know, happening.
Speaker 1: But I would hold the interview and then I would
Speaker 1: have them show me where the place is, and then
Speaker 1: I would, you know, depending what I found. You know,
Speaker 1: we have to judge these things of what would you know,
Speaker 1: what evidence do I have them from? If I go
Speaker 1: over there and it's just you know, a bunch of
Speaker 1: pine needles and there's nothing, you know, m's you know,
Speaker 1: let's take a walk, you know, let's go see if
Speaker 1: we can find anything that's disturbed, you know, because I'm
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go look right then, I don't know what
Speaker 1: I'll be looking for, but I'm used to looking for
Speaker 1: human activity, you know, just from being in crime scene,
Speaker 1: so any type of disturbances anything really, But then you know,
Speaker 1: during that interview is going to cover a lot, so
Speaker 1: I totally realized in from experience that eyewitness interviews aren't
Speaker 1: usually the most reliable. But that's pretty much all we
Speaker 1: have to go on now with this kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So it's it's really difficult to you know, discern what's
Speaker 1: really happening, what's not really you know, or what's really
Speaker 1: happened what hasn't happened. Now, if there was actually something there,
Speaker 1: you know, like a footprint.
Speaker 2: Sure, let's let let's say there there's a track, how
Speaker 2: how would you go about documenting that track?
Speaker 1: Okay, now that has now just become a half day
Speaker 1: thing for me, probably for that one track, because now
Speaker 1: I'm worried that I might miss something for uh it
Speaker 1: possibly being an undiscovered year whatever. I'm like panicking, going,
Speaker 1: oh my god, all right, let's stop breathe, let's do
Speaker 1: this right, you know, and start going through my actual checklist.
Speaker 1: So the first thing I'm going to do is I'm
Speaker 1: going to check the weather. That's something I I think
Speaker 1: people forget to do. I'm gonna check the weather and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna find out is anything bad coming that's going
Speaker 1: to make me not be able to do with this
Speaker 1: print right now because or or keep me you know,
Speaker 1: so I want to go and check and see if
Speaker 1: I can find anything else, because now if I have something,
Speaker 1: I need to know if I need to expand my
Speaker 1: scene or if this is it. So now it's time
Speaker 1: to let me check. And I don't need a bunch
Speaker 1: of people. I need to do it on my own.
Speaker 1: And they give you an example. I can go to
Speaker 1: a homicide here and me and another crime scene guy
Speaker 1: are going to be the only one in the house
Speaker 1: and no one else is allowed in until we tell
Speaker 1: them they can. And it's really that simple. And once
Speaker 1: we have figured out what's going on, we will have
Speaker 1: created a path or created an avenue, and we will
Speaker 1: like hand walk you through the scene. The detective who
Speaker 1: needs to see it, we will walk them through and
Speaker 1: show them stuff and tell them where they can and
Speaker 1: can't step. Was like that, and I think, I know
Speaker 1: it sounds like overkill for bigfoot, but if we're looking
Speaker 1: for DNA, we're looking for any dermal ridges. We have
Speaker 1: a footprint, uh you know, we have something. Who knows,
Speaker 1: maybe there's hair. We don't know any of that until
Speaker 1: we start checking the entire area, because you can always
Speaker 1: close it and make it smaller. But once you start
Speaker 1: contaminating the area around it. It's kind of hard to
Speaker 1: start again. You know you've already contaminated that area. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So interestingly enough, I have found a makeshift solution for
Speaker 1: some rain to protect a footprint. And it sounds silly,
Speaker 1: but you know you've seen on TV where they have
Speaker 1: like those little metal frames that we use for putting
Speaker 1: around a footprint so we can cast it. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: we'll put we put that around it and acts like
Speaker 1: a dam. Well I found on Amazon. It's aumbrella you
Speaker 1: wear on your head.
Speaker 2: It's like, I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like three feet long. Well,
Speaker 1: it turns out that part that goes on your head
Speaker 1: doesn't touch the ground when it's open. Okay, so I legit.
Speaker 1: Will put the frame around it and then open that
Speaker 1: umbrella that fits in my backpack and open it and
Speaker 1: put it over top. If it's going to rain and
Speaker 1: I don't have time to deal with like I found it,
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it's starting to rain. Frame, umbrella done.
Speaker 1: Unless it's going to be a monsoon, right, if it's
Speaker 1: just lightly raining and it may pass, then you might
Speaker 1: just have to photograph and deal with what you can.
Speaker 1: But you know, once you get that casting material and
Speaker 1: you know, fifteen twenty minutes goes by, it doesn't really
Speaker 1: matter if it starts to rain or not. It's already
Speaker 1: starting to set and cure. But honestly, if I found
Speaker 1: that footprint, you know, I check the weather and that
Speaker 1: would help me determine what I need to do. Now.
Speaker 1: So let's say I expand out and I don't find anything,
Speaker 1: and I come back to my footprint. Now, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: don my mask so I don't breathe any DNA into
Speaker 1: the sucker, and I'm going to get down and I'm
Speaker 1: actually going to look inside this thing with a flashlight
Speaker 1: with oblaue lighting. Oblue lighting is lighting from the side,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to check to see if I have
Speaker 1: any dermal ridges or any kind of marks or anything inside,
Speaker 1: you know, details that I know I need to keep.
Speaker 1: If it's possible, I'm going to take a sample from
Speaker 1: inside that without disturbing any of the details. Like I'm
Speaker 1: going to find the worst possible spot, and that's the
Speaker 1: spot I'm going to sample. But I'm also going to
Speaker 1: photograph or film me doing it and show where it
Speaker 1: came from, you know, like this whole process of you know,
Speaker 1: a little arrow, you know, my little sticker arrow is
Speaker 1: pointing to the spot with a label that says like
Speaker 1: S one for sample one. I take the sample and
Speaker 1: that way you know what it is, right, and then
Speaker 1: photograph with all that stuff, and then you know before
Speaker 1: and after so you can see where the mark came from.
Speaker 1: So then when cast, you know that that divid is
Speaker 1: not a detail that's actually anything to do with the
Speaker 1: cast or the footprint. You know, as you can tell,
Speaker 1: this could be a very lengthy process of doing that,
Speaker 1: that overall picture that you people take, you know, and
Speaker 1: then they're done. Back in the day that was that
Speaker 1: was a great idea. Now pretty much all the footwear
Speaker 1: examiners and even fingerprinting examiners were working from photographs now,
Speaker 1: So at the foot level, I would actually divide that
Speaker 1: up into several overlapping sections and I would actually get
Speaker 1: closer than just one photograph of the entire foot and
Speaker 1: I would come in and I would be photographing the
Speaker 1: interior of that as well. At a more macro level
Speaker 1: now using openly gliding for you know, to light up
Speaker 1: the details. If you're doing that, you're also going to
Speaker 1: have to do the openly gliding like a three hundred,
Speaker 1: you know, from all different angles, going around that pression,
Speaker 1: because if you're casting shadows, those shadows can also cover
Speaker 1: other details. So it's kind of like a it's a long,
Speaker 1: lengthy process. You know, you're gonna end up with, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe one hundred photos just documenting the that foot impression.
Speaker 1: And you should be occasionally checking, like blowing in up
Speaker 1: on your screen just to make sure they're in focus
Speaker 1: and the lighting is right and you're getting good photos
Speaker 1: because you know you only get one chance, so then
Speaker 1: you know you can move into casting and all that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. You know, once you've done all those things.
Speaker 1: That's pretty much what I would do.
Speaker 2: And is somebody who's camera phone good enough for this?
Speaker 1: No, We've done entire scenes on our camera phones. You've
Speaker 1: seen those megapixels on these camera phones now, I mean
Speaker 1: the camera on our phones now, they are amazing. The
Speaker 1: only thing that you need to realize when you're taking
Speaker 1: pictures with your phone is that when you zoom, that's
Speaker 1: not a true zoom. You know, you're just enlarging the pixels, right,
Speaker 1: So if you're going to take pictures of something of
Speaker 1: small details, then you need to be moving your phone
Speaker 1: closer and not zooming with your phone, because as soon
Speaker 1: as you try to enlarge that on your computer, you know,
Speaker 1: it just goes to straight pixels and you can't see anything.
Speaker 1: So it's you should stay away from zooming anything on
Speaker 1: your phone when you're documenting things, and always just move
Speaker 1: further and farther away with your phone. That's that's what
Speaker 1: you should be doing.
Speaker 2: I know that you've interviewed a few people on your
Speaker 2: own podcast slash YouTube channel, some witnesses. You know, we've
Speaker 2: spoken before about this. I asked you earlier about how
Speaker 2: much deception have you noticed? What about the other side
Speaker 2: of the spectrum. I know by now you've talked to
Speaker 2: people that are telling you the truth. How do you
Speaker 2: process that? I mean, they're not lying, So what's going on?
Speaker 1: All right? Yeah, I mean that's an excellent question. And
Speaker 1: you know, it's easier to process what you think is
Speaker 1: a lie. You know, it's you know, there's nothing more
Speaker 1: to do, right right, Once you know something when someone's
Speaker 1: lying to you, you know there's nothing more to do. It's
Speaker 1: a lie, it's not true. You move on the problem
Speaker 1: with a lot of these things, and I know, you know,
Speaker 1: even John Brenschak in his book he talks about it
Speaker 1: is perception. So people can wholeheartedly believe something and be
Speaker 1: telling the truth technically, but the manner of how they
Speaker 1: process the information while this incident was happening, it's hard
Speaker 1: to tell if that's what really happened. Like, you know,
Speaker 1: something happened because they believe it, and you know they're
Speaker 1: telling the truth. Now, what actually happened versus how they
Speaker 1: perceived it happening could be something entirely different. I say
Speaker 1: this because and he makes a very good like example
Speaker 1: in his book of let's just say, say a bunch
Speaker 1: of bigfoot people go off into the woods together and
Speaker 1: they sit in the middle of a field and they're
Speaker 1: doing their investigation. You know, they're all like clustered right together,
Speaker 1: almost touching. They can barely see the light they have
Speaker 1: to the edge of the field. They hear noises, they
Speaker 1: can't tell what it is. And then something comes out
Speaker 1: of those woods. They can't see what it is, it's
Speaker 1: too dark. But something comes out and it's in the
Speaker 1: air and it like flies around and comes back, and
Speaker 1: they come back and now you know, on their way out,
Speaker 1: they're all trying to discuss what happened. So group think
Speaker 1: is starting to happen right now, because what's going to
Speaker 1: happen is before they're DeCamp, they're going to all basically
Speaker 1: collectively decide what happened. They saw something flying, and let's
Speaker 1: put this into the wou crowd and say, all right,
Speaker 1: we had an encounter with a bigfoot. He came out,
Speaker 1: he came out, there was a portal, he flew around
Speaker 1: as he went back into the woods. You take an
Speaker 1: entirely different group with different expectations, put them out there
Speaker 1: and let's just say it's a bunch of hunters. The
Speaker 1: exact same incident happens. They're walking back and so on says, well,
Speaker 1: how did it go? They're like, ah, nothing, this bat
Speaker 1: came out of the woods and it flew over us.
Speaker 1: They never actually saw the bat. They assumed it was
Speaker 1: a bat. You know, they just saw something moving. But
Speaker 1: for their perception, for their reality, that's what it was.
Speaker 1: It was a bat. And then you can just keep
Speaker 1: on going down the line for the different belief systems.
Speaker 1: So the problem is is a lot of these things,
Speaker 1: I think, except for the you know, like the ones
Speaker 1: in the daytime, you know, they're like, I actually saw
Speaker 1: the big Harry saying it was walking right in front
Speaker 1: of me. You know, all right, if you determine that
Speaker 1: person is being truthful, that's something entirely different. But you know,
Speaker 1: those those ones where I saw something in the woods,
Speaker 1: I did not sure what it was, but I'm fairly
Speaker 1: certain I had a big foot encounter, you know, at
Speaker 1: nights with glowing eyes, you know, things like that that
Speaker 1: can be problematic. But when they're when you hear them
Speaker 1: and they're telling that, and you're like, well, they're telling
Speaker 1: the truth. They saw something, But for me, I don't
Speaker 1: know what that could be, you know. But all I'm
Speaker 1: saying is, you know, there's different perceptions. People process information differently.
Speaker 1: I don't really know what else to say about that.
Speaker 2: No, No, I understand what you're saying. You can go
Speaker 2: to a point of this person is telling me the
Speaker 2: truth that they saw something. But for you personally, that
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean that it was a bigfoot that they saw,
Speaker 2: just that they saw something and they believe it was
Speaker 2: a bigfoot that the I saw, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think for I'll have different levels of
Speaker 1: belief based off of the situation that I'm being told,
Speaker 1: you know, like if it was daytime or you know,
Speaker 1: something like that. You know, you know, I got a
Speaker 1: full good look at it, you know, walking right in
Speaker 1: front of me, you know, Caud, I think, Okay.
Speaker 2: Well, the woman that you talked to that saw one
Speaker 2: up on the.
Speaker 1: Ridge, that was actually what I was picturing while I
Speaker 1: was just saying that.
Speaker 2: I mean that she's telling the truth.
Speaker 1: I believe for yes, I do, and I believe that
Speaker 1: she she saw one. Now what do I do with
Speaker 1: that information? I'm not entirely sure. It's it's one of
Speaker 1: those things where I believe them, but to a wholehearted believe,
Speaker 1: you know, like you almost have to see something for yourself,
Speaker 1: you know, because what seeing one for yourself I am.
Speaker 1: I imagine, and I've thought about this, if I were
Speaker 1: to see one for myself, I imagine would be paradigm shifting,
Speaker 1: you know, everything, all questions about life, all questions about
Speaker 1: everything I thought I knew. You know, it introduces so
Speaker 1: many more questions. Yeah, yeah, right, it introduces so many
Speaker 1: more questions. So I don't think that me believing someone's
Speaker 1: telling the truth and thinking they really did see one
Speaker 1: technical really means the same to me as if I
Speaker 1: would have seen one myself, you know, so I'm not
Speaker 1: calling her a liar, but it feels like, you know,
Speaker 1: I think she did see one. I do. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, I don't think it means as much
Speaker 1: to me as if I would see one myself. If
Speaker 1: that makes sense, I don't. I'm having trouble, you know, Like,
Speaker 1: that's a great question, and I've never really thought about,
Speaker 1: you know, the juxtaposition between the two. Yeah, I might
Speaker 1: have to think about that one more.
Speaker 2: You're in a very unique position, and like I said,
Speaker 2: you know, since I found out you existed, which it's
Speaker 2: been a little while now, you are a person I've
Speaker 2: been wanting to talk to for a very long time.
Speaker 1: I have.
Speaker 2: Beat my head on the wall and talked about how
Speaker 2: bigfoot research needs to be approached as a forensic science.
Speaker 2: I don't know why people started trying to stick the
Speaker 2: scientific method, and it's just it's an entirely different situation.
Speaker 2: You know, A bigfoot sighting is an event that takes place,
Speaker 2: you know, it's no different than a crime scene, and
Speaker 2: that's how it needs to be approached. I personally am
Speaker 2: of the belief that the issue at hand is we
Speaker 2: would already have some sort of proof or a much
Speaker 2: stronger are that these things exist if researchers, including myself
Speaker 2: in that had been doing things correctly to begin with
Speaker 2: and had taken the time to learn how to do
Speaker 2: things correctly. But that's not the case. That's not what happened,
Speaker 2: and you can't separate the wheat from the chaff. You know,
Speaker 2: everybody has the right to conduct things however they want to.
Speaker 2: There's no guidelines. You know, we've kind of talked about
Speaker 2: that in post on Facebook before. And you're in this
Speaker 2: position where you have your professional career and now you're
Speaker 2: looking into this. So what happens if you do have
Speaker 2: a bigfoot sighting? Is that something that you would even
Speaker 2: talk about? Would you even admit that you had a
Speaker 2: sighting because of what it might mean to your own
Speaker 2: professional career. I mean, your investigations and testimony have helped
Speaker 2: implicate people and put them in prison or keep them
Speaker 2: out of prison. So what you're absolutely not wrong. What
Speaker 2: happens if you have a sighting? Or you know, what
Speaker 2: do you do with it?
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, you know, it's one of
Speaker 1: those things I think that you can think about and
Speaker 1: try to come up with what you think you will do,
Speaker 1: But until it happens, I don't know. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's the same thing as you know,
Speaker 1: like being on a baseball team and going, all right,
Speaker 1: what happens when I get the ball? I don't think
Speaker 1: it's the same take right, So I try to think
Speaker 1: about you know, and I have thought about this, but
Speaker 1: you know what, I never thought about what you said
Speaker 1: about it affecting my career. Honestly, up until just now.
Speaker 1: I always I was only thinking about it philosophically, until
Speaker 1: you just well, I mean.
Speaker 2: There's there's been police officers before. You know, you've talked
Speaker 2: to fellow police officers that are involved in big footing,
Speaker 2: admitted to sidings and everything's fine, nothing's happened. There's actually
Speaker 2: a police officer that was involved in a huge hoax
Speaker 2: and we won't get into that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, no, And I hear you. I think
Speaker 1: my my biggest problem is is the level that I'm
Speaker 1: testifying at now. I've actually already uh, someone's already brought
Speaker 1: up the book one time that I did, and but
Speaker 1: luckily I had a prepared answer for that, so it
Speaker 1: didn't go as bad as they thought it was. Gonna
Speaker 1: go because they Unfortunately, I work in a county, Fulton County,
Speaker 1: and you know a lot of people know that I
Speaker 1: that was in the news for a lot of time
Speaker 1: for our DA, our d DA's office, Shenanigan's. But a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff happens inside our courtroom that shouldn't happen,
Speaker 1: and only in some I'm not I can't, it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be fair to say all. But there are certain courtrooms
Speaker 1: that I'm in that it almost feels like it's a
Speaker 1: TV show. You know, there's way too much, too much
Speaker 1: leniency going out to the you know, to either parties honestly,
Speaker 1: to the prosecution or to the defense, and they're being
Speaker 1: allowed to, you know, make a show of it sometimes
Speaker 1: and that's not how court's supposed to be. But I
Speaker 1: knew exactly what they were talking about when they came
Speaker 1: after when they mentioned the book. It was during a
Speaker 1: voadir and that's basically, you know, when you're telling all
Speaker 1: your all your qualifications going through your CV and why
Speaker 1: you would be an expert, be able to testify as
Speaker 1: an expert witness and something, so both sides have a
Speaker 1: chance to ask you questions to basically qualify you before
Speaker 1: the judge rules yes or no, you can be an
Speaker 1: expert witness, right, and uh, we had just gone through
Speaker 1: it and I had talked about my my published articles
Speaker 1: and I the book out and.
Speaker 3: The the defense said that you've been published other times, too, right,
Speaker 3: And I was like, oh crap, and I cut them
Speaker 3: off and I was like, yes.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I said, I wrote a book on how to
Speaker 1: cast impressions and various types of soils and substrates and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And I geared it towards you know,
Speaker 1: the Bigfoot, you know theme, you know, trying to make
Speaker 1: it really fun. It's pretty cool, huh, and you know,
Speaker 1: it just kind of stopped. It was like, all right,
Speaker 1: there we go. And I was like, wow, that happened
Speaker 1: way too fast. But you know, but that's what I'm
Speaker 1: always trying to tell people is you know, people are watching,
Speaker 1: so I have to be careful about what I say.
Speaker 1: And and sometimes I'm not the most artful speaker. You know,
Speaker 1: I'll forget, I get tired and I'm hoping I don't
Speaker 1: do something. But as far as if I had a sighting, man,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just don't know how I would
Speaker 1: handle that because you I imagine just like everyone else.
Speaker 1: Do you want to tell everybody you know something exciting
Speaker 1: has happened in your life.
Speaker 2: I mean, you have both sides. I mean everybody's different.
Speaker 2: You know, everybody is an individual. I've talked to all
Speaker 2: different kinds, and you know, some people want to tell everybody.
Speaker 2: Some people don't want to tell anyone. It's just one
Speaker 2: of those things. I think it would depend on the
Speaker 2: circumstances and everything. But I just think, yeah, again, you're
Speaker 2: in a very unique situation. There's many different ways to
Speaker 2: look at the potentialities of you having an experience out there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not going.
Speaker 1: To worry about it till it happens. If I keep
Speaker 1: if I start thinking about it and I go too deep,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna worry myself to death. I just ran David.
Speaker 2: Out of the Bigfoot world.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I was like, all right, y'all, y'all, y'all
Speaker 1: blame him. I'm out. He's right, I'm out.
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about the body farm. Well, okay,
Speaker 2: so the body farm. Yeah, for people that don't know,
Speaker 2: this is a place where they've got a bunch of
Speaker 2: dead bodies and they study them and learn forensics. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of talk about why haven't people found a
Speaker 2: body of a bigfoot? And of course a good excuse is, well,
Speaker 2: things disappear in the woods. You know, bodies don't last
Speaker 2: very long in the woods. And I know that we're
Speaker 2: talking about an undiscovered creature here and it's not the
Speaker 2: same as you know, a human body, But just for
Speaker 2: the sake of conversation, how long does it take a
Speaker 2: human body to disappear on its own in a typical
Speaker 2: forest environment in the United States?
Speaker 1: Except that every force is different, right right?
Speaker 2: I mean the adit level, I'm gonna hit you up, yep, yep,
Speaker 2: uh huh, temperature, moisture, acidity levels, even the micro organisms,
Speaker 2: the type of fungus that's in the area.
Speaker 1: It's all going to be different. And you're you're not wrong,
Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest things to consider. I mean, so, yeah,
Speaker 1: I worked on a project where I briefly we got
Speaker 1: to do something fun. They were blowing up pigs, right,
Speaker 1: not live ones, they were dead you animal. Right. So
Speaker 1: there was the state forensic anthropologist. She was doing a
Speaker 1: study with somebody else on how the like. Basically it
Speaker 1: was I D kind of study, right, Okay, you know
Speaker 1: the explosive devices. They were looking at what was the
Speaker 1: the blast doing that, you know, that compression when the
Speaker 1: explosion you know went off, what was it doing to
Speaker 1: the bones. So yeah, they were They were like blowing
Speaker 1: up cars, you know, paint cans, and had like, you know,
Speaker 1: like dead pigs on sticks. You know, like there were
Speaker 1: people standing there getting lown up. And that made me go,
Speaker 1: holy crap, you know that. And that was right before
Speaker 1: I went to the National Forensic Academy, and I was like, man,
Speaker 1: that's so nasty. You know, like how long does that
Speaker 1: take before it like disappears and you know, stuff like that,
Speaker 1: because this stuff was already smelling. It's it's really weird.
Speaker 1: You know, something as simple and I can't remember the temperature,
Speaker 1: it's like fifty two or fifty three degrees or something
Speaker 1: as simple as that. You know, a temperature level where
Speaker 1: the you know, the bottle fly doesn't fly right. So
Speaker 1: like at fifty four fifty five, I say, I'm right
Speaker 1: on the fifty three, it's somewhere right there. But say
Speaker 1: at fifty four to fifty five degrees, that flies flying
Speaker 1: around all day long laying eggs, you know, got your
Speaker 1: maggots going. They're just tearing up the you know, the
Speaker 1: meat and stuff that's on the ground, and then it
Speaker 1: drops a couple degrees they stop flying. So you know
Speaker 1: that alone, right there can change how long a carcass
Speaker 1: is going to lay there.
Speaker 2: Start slowing it down.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, because your insect activity has dramatically decreased. Right,
Speaker 1: They play a huge role, especially you know beetles flies.
Speaker 1: It's it's amazing how fast they can take a carcass away.
Speaker 1: I did see a pig in a controlled experiment that
Speaker 1: was completely gone and skeletonized in like a week and
Speaker 1: a half.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: And that was with a camera on it, making sure
Speaker 1: no scavengers were coming, you know, because that's the other issue. Sure,
Speaker 1: so in a controlled environment, you know, it was a
Speaker 1: week and a half and this pig was gone. Now
Speaker 1: you took it and this was that study. I think
Speaker 1: it was done in Florida. But you take that same
Speaker 1: study and put up in Maine, and you know, where
Speaker 1: the temperature is different, it may be there much longer.
Speaker 1: I don't know. But we're also talking about scavengers. You know,
Speaker 1: limbs are going to disappear. We found a body, sorry,
Speaker 1: we found parts of a bone from a cold case
Speaker 1: using cadaver dogs. And basically what happened, well, we found
Speaker 1: the rest with cadaver dogs stuff like that, but somebody
Speaker 1: was out collecting moss for like aquariums and stuff like
Speaker 1: that on this little stream bed and they found some
Speaker 1: human bones. Now, it turns out that when we went
Speaker 1: out and found all that we could, they were spread out.
Speaker 1: It was almost a half a mile. It was a
Speaker 1: pretty good It's much further than it normally is, so
Speaker 1: I'm guessing at some point something just picked up the
Speaker 1: bone and took it. It wasn't like disarticulated like right there,
Speaker 1: and then a whole leg was getting traveled. Battle that's
Speaker 1: a sight. That's a sight to think about. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm laughing people, but.
Speaker 2: I'm still trying to wrap my head around at half
Speaker 2: a mile that's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it was. It was an outlier. It was
Speaker 1: an outlier. It was just an example of how weird
Speaker 1: outlier things can happen. But none of these bones were together.
Speaker 1: They were all within a few hundred yards, you know,
Speaker 1: but one hundred yards is is far. Yeah, So we
Speaker 1: didn't recover, but like a third and the rest we
Speaker 1: are fairly certain. And this is this is you know,
Speaker 1: what I was just bringing up. The dogs kept hitting
Speaker 1: on this sandy area of the creek. You know, we
Speaker 1: dug Doug, Doug, Doug dog. But then we realized it's
Speaker 1: been like, you know, four or five years. The bones
Speaker 1: are gone, they've been in that sandy wet area. They
Speaker 1: basically just weathered and dissenter the sand. Yeah, they are
Speaker 1: the sand, and that's what the dogs were hitting on.
Speaker 1: There were the dogs weren't wrong, they were hitting on
Speaker 1: the bone. It's just and you know, and the other
Speaker 1: stuff that we found was not in the creek. I
Speaker 1: think disarticulation by you know, other scavengers predators that plays
Speaker 1: a major role, not just from the insect activity, but
Speaker 1: when we're talking and you know the other thing. You know,
Speaker 1: with all of that combined, you think about what a
Speaker 1: cougar does, you know, the big predator. You don't usually
Speaker 1: just find them laying around, right, you know. They're just
Speaker 1: like a you know, a dog or a cat that's
Speaker 1: out in the wild. When they start to pass away,
Speaker 1: they go find a nice quiet place where they're not
Speaker 1: going to be bothered. So that's that's a consideration. You know,
Speaker 1: like a lot of bears, they crawl back into a
Speaker 1: den and pass away and you don't you don't readily
Speaker 1: find those. I think the the other issue you might
Speaker 1: have is we don't technical we know the intelligence level
Speaker 1: and you know, even elephants are burying their debt, right,
Speaker 1: So if there's any indication and all signs point to
Speaker 1: if this creature does exist, it's a lot more intelligent
Speaker 1: than we're given it, then some are given it credit
Speaker 1: for and I wouldn't put it past you know, their
Speaker 1: own burials, So that would be problematic, right, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't see it.
Speaker 2: Definitely problematic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know, when we talk about the
Speaker 1: missing bones, issue is at what intelligence level are we
Speaker 1: giving this creature to be able to say we should
Speaker 1: have been able to find it if it has passed away,
Speaker 1: we should have been able to find bones by now.
Speaker 1: And people wrongly look to like skeletons of missing hikers.
Speaker 1: There's you know, other anthropological sites, you know, like of
Speaker 1: you know, uh, skeletons found in caves and things like that.
Speaker 1: The ones found in caves on the anthropological scale, they're
Speaker 1: usually by accident. We weren't there looking for you know,
Speaker 1: for bones. Right, It's almost unfair to attribute to automatically
Speaker 1: whenever we say missing bones. Usually that argument is with
Speaker 1: people who are immediately thinking of well, it's just something
Speaker 1: as you know, not as smart as a chimpanzee, right, right,
Speaker 1: it's just a missing gorilla or you know, something like that.
Speaker 1: We're always using gorillas and apes and things like that
Speaker 1: as a comparison, which really isn't fair because we don't
Speaker 1: we if it does exist, we know nothing about this thing.
Speaker 1: You just don't, so you can't just it's it's like
Speaker 1: picking and choosing your your evidence for your argument when
Speaker 1: there isn't.
Speaker 2: Any Well, like the missing hiker, you know, analogy, we're
Speaker 2: actually looking for them, right with a huge amount of people.
Speaker 2: We know the area that they're in or you know,
Speaker 2: are supposed to be in. The hiker isn't trying to hide,
Speaker 2: They're trying to be found. Usually, you know, whenever they
Speaker 2: succumb to whatever. Caves are usually burial sites, and that
Speaker 2: cave is pretty protected from the elements and everything. There's
Speaker 2: usually more than one body there. So again, typically whenever
Speaker 2: people talk about you know, skeletal remains in caves or whatever,
Speaker 2: a lot of those times those caves are being archaeologically explored,
Speaker 2: you know, excavated, and that's how the bones are.
Speaker 1: Found, right and yeah, but yeah, that's exactly what I
Speaker 1: was saying. It's almost like picking and choosing the scenario
Speaker 1: to fit the narrative without just you know, being open
Speaker 1: minded and going there's so many different variables that come
Speaker 1: into play on why we haven't found any bones. It
Speaker 1: could be as simple as they bury their dead. Done, deal,
Speaker 1: it's over. Yeah, right, and then you'll never are you
Speaker 1: just you know, look into most of the areas that
Speaker 1: they would crawl up if they weren't as intelligent as
Speaker 1: I'm giving them credit for, which I think they'd have
Speaker 1: to be, honestly, but or they would have been seen
Speaker 1: a lot more and found a lot easier. But I
Speaker 1: think it's just there's just too many variables, you know.
Speaker 1: It sounds like a good book, you know, to explain
Speaker 1: it all, a chapter for each variable.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you were dodging it and if
Speaker 2: you don't want to talk about it. Line, uh, the
Speaker 2: turkey hunt. You experienced something whenever you're turkey hunting, But
Speaker 2: I don't recall you saying what you actually experienced that
Speaker 2: you can't explain.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, i'll tell you, I'll tell you. That's no problem.
Speaker 1: I've told other people, Yeah I did. I did skip
Speaker 1: right over it. I was trying to make a point
Speaker 1: on something else, but I wasn't potentially trying to dodge it, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it was an a Darsville, Georgia, and unfortunately the
Speaker 1: place has since been like taken back over by the
Speaker 1: paper company and leveled. We were releasing a three hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty three acre lot and we'd go out hunting
Speaker 1: and stuff out there, and I was coming back during
Speaker 1: the night, and what I was doing is you've seen
Speaker 1: those valleys that they're not so deep that you can't
Speaker 1: see the bottom. You can actually see the bottom, you know.
Speaker 1: It's like one of those spots where people put deer
Speaker 1: stands on and they watched the valley and you can
Speaker 1: watch the other side. So it's not that big. But
Speaker 1: I was walking on game trail and it was the
Speaker 1: trail itself was about a quarter of the way down
Speaker 1: from the ridge. And as I'm walking back, I hear
Speaker 1: what sounds like footsteps. Well, no, I heard footsteps there
Speaker 1: back into the right of me, and they were up
Speaker 1: on the ridge. I couldn't see anything as dark. My
Speaker 1: first thought was my friends, and I said hey, you know,
Speaker 1: that's a good way to get shot guys, you know
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I didn't hear nothing. I stopped,
Speaker 1: didn't hear anything. I was expecting to hear some laughing
Speaker 1: or something. I started walking again and I heard the footsteps.
Speaker 1: So now my mind has gone to there had been
Speaker 1: a person up there that was messing with our trail cameras.
Speaker 1: And we know it was a person because I set
Speaker 1: up a trail camera on my trail camera.
Speaker 2: As everyone should do by the.
Speaker 4: Way, geez, sorry, right, no, no, no, huge, right, So
Speaker 4: you have your maid trail that you're watching for deer
Speaker 4: and other animals, and that's just out in the open,
Speaker 4: right because the deer don't care.
Speaker 1: And then I had hidden off to the side the
Speaker 1: camera facing that camera, and it caught somebody. Basically what
Speaker 1: they were doing is they were deleting my pictures on
Speaker 1: the SD card as they passed by. Oh wow, and
Speaker 1: trying to But yeah, because at first we couldn't figure
Speaker 1: it out. I was like, dude, my cameras have been
Speaker 1: out here forever and I keep getting nothing, but I
Speaker 1: keep finding tracks. Something's wrong with my cameras. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: was like, damn it, but you know, like it was
Speaker 1: our little spot, you know, no one that we had
Speaker 1: never seen any evidence of anybody out there. So there's
Speaker 1: this guy walking around the woods with the flashlight and
Speaker 1: he's deleting our stuff. So I'm thinking, it's that guy
Speaker 1: up there. And all I have is I carry this
Speaker 1: little red flashlight that I hook on the uh the
Speaker 1: strap on my backpack, and when I click it, it
Speaker 1: just lights up my foot area and a little ways
Speaker 1: in front of me. And that's it. And I'd gotten
Speaker 1: so comfortable, you know, with those walks back that I
Speaker 1: didn't really have any more lighting other than that. I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't need anything else, you know, it's
Speaker 1: just me walking back. Now. I did have my pistol,
Speaker 1: but that was it. And so it continues. I stop,
Speaker 1: it continues, and I'm like, man, some of it, I'm like,
Speaker 1: why is it? Something messing with me? So then I
Speaker 1: notice to my left, I'm looking down into the valley.
Speaker 1: Because I'm looking, you know, I'm scanning around. I feel uncomfortable, paranoid,
Speaker 1: and I see a red floating light down in the
Speaker 1: bottom bottom of the valley and it's moving kind of
Speaker 1: like a drone wood just super slow, not moving. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's moving, but not like there's no bobbing. When I
Speaker 1: first thought, I thought it was a cigarette light someone's
Speaker 1: holding a cigarette, like the cherry of a cigarette, because
Speaker 1: that's how small it looked. But it was more red
Speaker 1: and it was just slowly moving. I saw. I'm like dumbfounded,
Speaker 1: staring at this thing, going, you know, I don't know
Speaker 1: what I have no clue, And then it dawns on me. Crap, crap, crap,
Speaker 1: I forgot about the person behind me because I'm staring
Speaker 1: at this red thick. Yeah. So I turn around and
Speaker 1: I look up, and then I glanced back down and
Speaker 1: the red light's gone. So I put my back to
Speaker 1: a tree and do that old Turkey hunter patients thing.
Speaker 1: And I sat there for like fifteen twenty minutes, going okay, well,
Speaker 1: I know you can't see me, and your patience is
Speaker 1: pretty good for a normal person. Usually they would have
Speaker 1: started walking by now. So I was like, all right,
Speaker 1: I'm out. So I turn and I started to walk in.
Speaker 1: As soon as I take my first step, it starts
Speaker 1: walking with me again, and I was like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: So I'm walking. I'm walking, I'm yelling stuff, trying to
Speaker 1: act all like manly, you know, scared. Yeah, I was like,
Speaker 1: you better knock it off, you know, like talking crap,
Speaker 1: and and finally I get to uh. And the whole time,
Speaker 1: I'm concerning and clueless because we're not close. I'm confused
Speaker 1: because I don't understand why, you know, Like I keep
Speaker 1: thinking like if something was going to attack me or
Speaker 1: this person was going to do something, they would have
Speaker 1: done it by now, Like what are they waiting for?
Speaker 1: And I finally get to the edge down towards the
Speaker 1: bottom of that finger of that ridge that I'm coming on,
Speaker 1: And then I was on and I can see the
Speaker 1: globe in the trees from the fire from camp, and
Speaker 1: I did something really dumb because I thought, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I just want to be back in camp. I can
Speaker 1: see the fire. I know this thing has had any
Speaker 1: chance possible. Who take me out? I know it's not
Speaker 1: a bear. I know it's not a deer. There is
Speaker 1: a person right there and they had shot me yet,
Speaker 1: so bye, And I took off coming in hot yep,
Speaker 1: and that said, I was yellous, like I'm like coming in,
Speaker 1: coming in, coming in, and they're like, why are you
Speaker 1: yelling coming in? We're not an ar you know I am.
Speaker 1: My brain went to you know, when we were doing
Speaker 1: like those high risk wars and stuff when we come
Speaker 1: into you know, another room or going in a different
Speaker 1: area where I'm like blue, blue, blue, you know, say
Speaker 1: who I am. I was like coming in camp, coming in,
Speaker 1: coming in and like what shut up making fun of me.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I had that. And then about a
Speaker 1: year later, around that same camp, my brother brought his son,
Speaker 1: who was ten at the time, to go camping for
Speaker 1: the very first time. Thought it would be you know,
Speaker 1: super easy, safe. You know, there's no one else around,
Speaker 1: it's our spot. We're leasing it and we're sitting around
Speaker 1: the camp and all of a sudden, he says, Uncle David,
Speaker 1: what's that? And he points past me and I look
Speaker 1: off into the trees and it's that freaking red light again. Wow,
Speaker 1: and it's moving. My brother drew his weapon. He's a
Speaker 1: cop to by the way, and he drew his weapon
Speaker 1: and I started laughing. He's like, what did you think
Speaker 1: this funny? What is that? Why do you think it's funny?
Speaker 1: I said, well, you can go try to find it
Speaker 1: if you like. I was laughing because I felt relief.
Speaker 1: It wasn't really laughing thinking it was funny. At the moment,
Speaker 1: it was more of a oh, thank god, I didn't
Speaker 1: imagine it. My brother is seeing it too, and his
Speaker 1: son is seeing it, and it's the same thing. So
Speaker 1: I told him, I said you, I said market, did
Speaker 1: you market? And for us, I don't know how other
Speaker 1: agencies do it, but when we both worked in the Albany,
Speaker 1: Georgia area, and we would say things like that to
Speaker 1: like a like an when we're training, somebody or someone
Speaker 1: else is in the car, you know, and we tell
Speaker 1: them the market. So what they would do is, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you've ever been driving at night and
Speaker 1: you think you saw something and then you try to
Speaker 1: drive up to it and now you're not sure if
Speaker 1: you're in the right spot or not. Yeah. Right, So
Speaker 1: when we tell them the market, they pick a landmark
Speaker 1: and they keep their eye on that landmark so we
Speaker 1: can focus on driving. And then when we get there,
Speaker 1: you know, he says, stop, stop, stop, it's right here.
Speaker 1: Then we know for sure it's right there. So I
Speaker 1: told him to market and he says, I got it.
Speaker 1: I got it. So I said, all right, So I
Speaker 1: got up and just kind of casually walked over. It's
Speaker 1: gone already, it's gone. It's just kind of floating for
Speaker 1: a while and then disappeared, and I was like, you
Speaker 1: got it, and it's like yeah. So I walk over.
Speaker 1: I'm shining my light up and I'm like, all right,
Speaker 1: where where? Tell me where? Tell me where? And it
Speaker 1: was about eleven twelve feet up. So I said, all right, well,
Speaker 1: can we see the tree? And that's when I was
Speaker 1: going to say rigelie, because I was thinking maybe it
Speaker 1: was just a plane going by, you know, and we
Speaker 1: could see the sky right there. But it turns out
Speaker 1: the ridge was much much higher. That hill was much
Speaker 1: much higher in the background, so it was down below
Speaker 1: and closer than we thought. Actually, because it was so small,
Speaker 1: our perception of it was that it was further away,
Speaker 1: but it was actually a lot closer than we originally thought.
Speaker 1: So that meant that that thing was actually pretty tiny.
Speaker 1: But it was just a red, like a not like
Speaker 1: a fire engine red, more like a maroon ish red.
Speaker 1: And it was just kind of just moving really slow.
Speaker 1: And then my friend, the last one, I'll tell you,
Speaker 1: my sergeant friend of mine, he called me late uh,
Speaker 1: well not late one. I was just in the evening.
Speaker 1: He was up there camping by himself. He was doing
Speaker 1: some scouting and putting out corn and stuff or deer,
Speaker 1: and he called me to tell me that he just
Speaker 1: wanted to be on the phone for a little while
Speaker 1: because basically, something just yelled across camp. Oh okay. He
Speaker 1: said it was so loud that he could feel it
Speaker 1: in his chest. And I said, well, dude, what are
Speaker 1: you doing still there? He's like, I just I just
Speaker 1: need to be on the phone for a minute. I said,
Speaker 1: where's your truck? I said, where's your truck? He goes,
Speaker 1: and this is so like him too, and it's so true.
Speaker 1: I said, where's your truck and he goes, oh, it's
Speaker 1: right over there. I'm like, how far is there? Man?
Speaker 1: And he was like it's it's right there. I'm like,
Speaker 1: so it's close by and he was like yeah. I
Speaker 1: said go get in the truck. And he goes, well,
Speaker 1: there's blind spots in the truck. And I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, he's not wrong, you know it's not
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, I'll be good. I'm just gonna hang
Speaker 1: by the fire for a minute and just thought to
Speaker 1: you for a second. So I started asking more questions,
Speaker 1: like I don't know it was just it was on
Speaker 1: the edge of the feel that comes into our camp,
Speaker 1: which is only about, you know, seventy five yards away,
Speaker 1: and he said that it was such a low like
Speaker 1: it I don't know. He said it was like a man,
Speaker 1: but wasn't like a man, and it was really deep
Speaker 1: and you could feel it resonating in his chest area
Speaker 1: and he was a little startled by it. And then
Speaker 1: about a year later they tore the trees down, and
Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, so with those kinds of things, you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to get into any paranormal stuff,
Speaker 1: but so when when I when I look at those
Speaker 1: things and those experiences, you know, I don't know what
Speaker 1: those things were. I don't know what was really happening.
Speaker 1: But who am I to say that this other thing
Speaker 1: that people say they're seeing didn't you know, I can't
Speaker 1: say that they didn't see it. So my mind is
Speaker 1: open for that. Plus I've seen a I'm hoping I have,
Speaker 1: you know, some stuff on my desk right now that
Speaker 1: I don't end up finding out something differently about. But
Speaker 1: I really hope I want to know the answer. I
Speaker 1: want to know the answer. That's basically where I'm at.
Speaker 1: I want to know, and I know other people right now,
Speaker 1: you know, or when they're listening to this, they're gonna
Speaker 1: be like, well, I know. I'm like, well, that's good
Speaker 1: for you, but I need to know, and I would
Speaker 1: like to I would like to definitively go, hey, check
Speaker 1: out what I have, like forensically, you know, even DNA.
Speaker 1: I think DNA is going to one or two things
Speaker 1: are going to do it for me and it's good
Speaker 1: or three, and I don't want the third one to happen.
Speaker 1: I don't want anyone killing it. Obviously. That would be proof.
Speaker 1: If I can get me an extra large footprint, you know,
Speaker 1: like a side fifteen sixteen with ridges going all the
Speaker 1: way across that are uninterrupted, then that will mean something
Speaker 1: to me. But I really think in the end it's
Speaker 1: going to be DNA that that doesn't.
Speaker 2: How can people find you and get a hold of you?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so yeah, that's pretty easy. People can find
Speaker 1: me by going to pretty much anything that says bigfoot
Speaker 1: forensics online. I have a YouTube channel called Bigfoot Forensics,
Speaker 1: you know, TikTok, Facebook, you name it, Bigfoot Forensics, website
Speaker 1: that says Bigfoot Forensics. You can email me if you
Speaker 1: want to at evidence at Bigfoot Forensics dot com, or
Speaker 1: you can just directly message me on Facebook. I'll respond
Speaker 1: to pretty much anywhere. And plus my name is David's again,
Speaker 1: that's the one I've pretty much been going by. I
Speaker 1: started Bigfoot Forensics on the Facebook group, and I was, like,
Speaker 1: you know, in the beginning, I was a little nervous
Speaker 1: about people knowing, you know, what I was doing. But
Speaker 1: then I pretty much have started going back over to
Speaker 1: just using my name. And don't forget to check out
Speaker 1: the book called Casting Bigfoot Evidence, what I alluded to earlier.
Speaker 1: That's on Amazon. It's basically a small little guide on
Speaker 1: how to take those pictures properly. I have like a
Speaker 1: whole chapter about how to document it rights, and then
Speaker 1: a chapter designated to like each type of soil and substrate.
Speaker 1: So you want to know how to collect the cast
Speaker 1: in mud or in wet sand or dry sand, there's
Speaker 1: a chapter on that in there. The right way, the
Speaker 1: right way.
Speaker 5: The way that that I would have taught I, you know,
Speaker 5: I originally did this book was almost done before I
Speaker 5: did this Bigfoot stuff, and it was designed for the
Speaker 5: CSI world because it was something I wished.
Speaker 1: I would have had but then I thought it would
Speaker 1: be cool and pretty much change all the wording around
Speaker 1: to bigfoot evidence, you know, to bigfoot, and to be
Speaker 1: honest with you, I thought more people were going to
Speaker 1: be interested in it. I would have done a lot
Speaker 1: better in the CSI world, be truthful with you more,
Speaker 1: because I actually had a lot of CSI people reach
Speaker 1: out and get the book. And I know it said
Speaker 1: in Glencoe, Georgia being used as a helpful little guide
Speaker 1: for some of their baby csis, So that's nice. But
Speaker 1: they're like hiding it because it says Bigfoot on it,
Speaker 1: so that's kind of funny.
Speaker 2: I mean, hey, it's a nice approach.
Speaker 1: Hey, I tried.
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for taking the time to talk to me
Speaker 2: and entertain me. And oh absolutely anytime. Yeah, man, for
Speaker 2: sure we're going to have to hook up again in
Speaker 2: the future.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Thank you.