WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.640 It was in Adarsville, Georgia. I was coming back during 2 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:06.280 the night. I heard footsteps there back into the right 3 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:09.400 of me. My first thought was my friends, and I said, hey, 4 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:11.080 you know, that's a good way to get shot guys, 5 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:13.279 you know kind of thing. And I didn't hear nothing. 6 00:00:13.359 --> 00:00:16.079 I stopped, didn't hear anything. I was expecting to hear 7 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:19.120 some laughing or something. I started walking again and I 8 00:00:19.160 --> 00:00:22.800 heard the footsteps. So then I notice to my left. 9 00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:25.679 I'm looking down and I see a red floating light 10 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:28.920 down in the bottom bottom of the valley, and it's 11 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:32.439 moving kind of like a drone wood, just super slow. 12 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:36.280 There's no bobbing, and it was just slowly moving. And 13 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:38.560 then it dawns on me. Cra, crap, crap. I forgot 14 00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:41.560 about the person behind me. I turned around and I 15 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:45.159 look up, and then I glanced back down and the 16 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:48.560 red light's gone. So I put my back to a 17 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:51.759 tree and do that old turkey hunter patients thing. And 18 00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:54.719 I sat there for like fifteen twenty minutes, and as 19 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:57.200 soon as I take my first step, it starts walking 20 00:00:57.240 --> 00:00:57.840 with me again. 21 00:01:31.159 --> 00:01:34.319 How much deception have you picked up on? 22 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:39.519 Oh? All the time? You know? I you know? And 23 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:43.680 it was something that I started with U when I 24 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:45.840 went when I don't know if you'd know this, uh, 25 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:49.840 for the first most of my career, or I guess 26 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:53.560 the first half now Jesus I'm getting older. I focused. 27 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.760 I focused on interviews and interrogations and was a poligrapher 28 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.879 and I just stopped doing polygraphs about a year and 29 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:04.680 a half ago. And I did it right. When I 30 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:07.640 first started that interview and interrogation process, I actually had 31 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:13.439 a mentor, and I belong to the International Association of Interviewers, 32 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:18.280 and the whole premise was you need a mentor because 33 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:21.639 once you start getting into that world of being able 34 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:25.840 to detect deception, you start having well I didn't know 35 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:29.159 it at the time, I understand now, but you start 36 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:32.680 thinking like everybody's a liar, right, and you start getting 37 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:37.840 angry and you know you can't trust anybody, And honestly, 38 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:41.479 the mentor is there to help reel you back in 39 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.080 and say focus, focus, Remember you have to ask this 40 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:51.599 question every single time that you think you're spotting someone lying. 41 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:56.800 You have to say, what is the intent? And that 42 00:02:56.840 --> 00:03:00.439 can help answer a lot of questions if you're open minded, 43 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:06.560 mainly because a lot of people don't. Their intent is 44 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.080 not to defraud, you know. You know, it's kind of 45 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:11.479 the example I like to give is you're sitting around 46 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:13.240 at dinner table with a bunch of people you don't know. 47 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:17.800 Everyone's telling stories. Everyone's going to be embellishing those stories 48 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:20.240 because they want to fit in, they want to be liked, right. 49 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:22.960 Their intent is not to deceive you, not to pull 50 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:27.039 one over on you. And then the same thing with eyewitnesses. 51 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:31.120 They want to be helpful. And a lot of times 52 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:34.960 what happens is when you sit them down and you 53 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.479 start asking them the hard questions and they realize that 54 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:42.000 they really didn't see much, they'll start to embellish because 55 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:46.120 now they feel silly. For sometimes they feel silly or 56 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:49.280 feel like a crap, what am I doing here? I 57 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:51.199 really didn't see as much as I thought I should 58 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:54.400 have seen, you know, to be helpful, so they embellish 59 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:57.560 a little, you know, so it doesn't look like they're 60 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:00.639 wasting someone's time or or something like that. So those 61 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:02.800 are all things you have to keep in mind. Is 62 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:04.759 you know, what is the intent here? I can tell 63 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:08.039 they're being deceptive, And at what point did the truth 64 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:12.240 stop and the embellishment start? You know, because a lot 65 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:16.040 of these people they saw something right. But then you 66 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:19.519 have the confirmation bias. You know, all these people, you know, 67 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.040 they want to believe so bad and they want to 68 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:26.399 have finally had that experience that they may overlook some 69 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:28.879 key details and they'll even fight you on it. Once 70 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:31.439 you're able to like prove no, they'll still fight you. 71 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:35.079 But it's what you decide to do with the information, 72 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:37.240 how you decide to act during the conversation. You know, 73 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:41.000 there's all kinds of things. But I almost stopped listening 74 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:46.199 entirely to some podcasts just because of that, where you 75 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:48.439 can hear that, oh, that's full of shit. You know, 76 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:50.879 that's crap. I don't want to hear that, you know, 77 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:53.000 I guess a waste of my time. I'm trying to 78 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.560 learn stuff, and I can automatically tell you're lying, just 79 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.720 knock it off. And then there's the others where you go, oh, 80 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:03.920 that's interesting, that's interesting. This interesting. Wait crap, now they're 81 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:08.759 adding you know, but I mean, you can't prove all 82 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:14.680 that either. That's just you know, experience. But yeah, in general, yeah, 83 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:16.879 I mean, I keep an open mind. I've had stuff 84 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:19.920 happen to me in the woods so that's kind of 85 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:21.600 where a lot of this came from. 86 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:30.160 Before I butcher anything. Is it ziggin or zigen Ziganigan. Yeah, 87 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.480 that was actually real nice for you to ask. So 88 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:38.759 just to kind of get it rolling here, give as 89 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:43.839 much or as little information about your professional background as 90 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:47.079 you want, you know, kind of let people know why 91 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:49.399 they should be listening to you whenever it comes to 92 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:49.920 this stuff. 93 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:55.600 Oh yeah, sure. So you know I told you before 94 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:59.959 I started off. I'm still a current law enforcement officer 95 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:04.279 here in Georgia in the North Metro Atlanta area, coming 96 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:07.720 up on twenty two years, and I hadn't always done 97 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:12.800 crime scene. And what I do now about nine years that, 98 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:18.439 besides being on patrol, was as a person's detective. And 99 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:23.560 every agency names or calls their person's detective something different, 100 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:27.120 so it could be anything from robbery, homicide, you know, 101 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:29.759 sexual assaults, things like that. So I did that for 102 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:31.959 a long time, and then finally a spot opened up 103 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:35.600 in crime scene and that's where I quickly found out 104 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:39.319 that I should have been doing that all along. It's 105 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:41.879 almost a you know, a part. Now you're like, are 106 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:43.560 you kidding me? You're paying me to do this? You 107 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:47.480 pay me to read research, go to classes, learn as 108 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:51.240 much as I can, and it's it's something that I 109 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:53.879 should have been doing all along, and I fully embraced it. 110 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:57.199 So I got the pleasure of going to the National 111 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:00.800 Forensic Academy in Oakridge, Tennessee. Sometimes they call it the 112 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:07.879 body Farm. Right then I became a certified crime scene investigator, 113 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:11.319 a certified latent fingerprint examiner. I got the pleasure of 114 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:15.240 going back and acting as an adjunct instructor sometimes, but 115 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:19.720 that passed right after COVID, the the guy who actually 116 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:26.079 taught a lot of my my beginning classes in the 117 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:29.439 fingerprint world, he actually took a full time job there. 118 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:32.040 Some like there's no reason for me, I have to 119 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:34.759 go back, and I was, it was jokingly telling like, 120 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:37.600 damn it, man, you're killing me. You know. I was 121 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:43.240 enjoying being able to do that. But so, you know, 122 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:51.600 the story continues, and then so as it progresses. My 123 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:54.680 my work colleague, he's working on his doctorate in bloodstained 124 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.360 pattern analysis, and it would turn out that we both 125 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:04.360 have similar interest but focusing on two different worlds. So 126 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:08.839 he's focusing focusing on bloodstain, I'm focusing focusing on latent fingerprints, 127 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:14.079 and uh, but we both do crime scene reconstruction, shooting 128 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:17.639 incident reconstruction, and I'm cross trained in his field. It's 129 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:22.639 just not love, he's cross trained in mind. And lately, 130 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:25.040 within the with the past couple, I would say lately 131 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:29.079 the past now three years, I've been heavily focusing on 132 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:35.000 being able to uh understand the distortion and recognizing the 133 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:39.080 context within the actual friction image patterns that we are collecting, 134 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:42.320 you know, like understanding the movements what was happening while 135 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:47.039 they were being deposited. Then it became a thing where 136 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:51.519 I was working on that, and then I ended up 137 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:54.360 you know, as you progress in your field and you know, 138 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.120 start testifying in court. If you're good, you're good. If 139 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:02.679 you're bad, people know that too, right, So our lab 140 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.600 ended up being one of those that were helping train 141 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:14.120 local csis around us and giving instructions, classes, teaching as well. 142 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:18.840 I act as a verifier for several agencies around that's 143 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:23.120 probably about seven, and I work fingerprints for about five 144 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:25.759 of those agencies on a full time basis, not just 145 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:28.720 my own. Uh So I see a lot of fingerprints. 146 00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:33.919 I'm super super busy, and that's what made me want 147 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:39.080 to honestly you know when during the distortion UH studies 148 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:42.720 is when I became interested of you know, can I 149 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:46.720 find some good dermal ridges inside these casts or inside 150 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:50.159 some pictures of the impressions in the ground, and you know, 151 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.559 could I help, you know, if I can't be out 152 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:55.039 in the field doing this, maybe I can help spread 153 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:56.960 the world on how to collect evidence and you know, 154 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:01.559 do that properly. But also maybe I can help look 155 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:04.440 at some of these things to help determine authenticity as 156 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:07.759 far as friction ridges and dermal ridges and things like that. 157 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:12.039 So how did that all come about? Like why were 158 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:17.480 you specifically interested in bigfoot and even applying your knowledge 159 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:18.120 to that field. 160 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:28.039 Well, you know, I had some interesting experiences in the woods. 161 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.679 My brother and I were turkey hunters, don't I don't 162 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:34.679 hunt them anymore. So the short and suitet of it is, 163 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:37.519 when you are looking for turkey, you have to find 164 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:39.679 out where they roost for the night, where they're gonna 165 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:41.720 you know, sleep. They go up in the trees they roost, 166 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:44.799 and the tom, the male turkey, he goes up and 167 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:47.480 he roosts in a different in a different tree. So 168 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:49.600 if you're there when they go to roost, then you 169 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:51.799 know their location, So that means in the morning you 170 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.960 can sneak back in while it's still dark and be 171 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.799 between them. And then when the tom comes down and 172 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.600 the hens come down, and you know the basically you're 173 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:02.320 in the way at the top, so now you've got 174 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:06.639 them coming towards you. That's the whole goal. So there 175 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:10.000 are several times where you know you're there for them roosting, 176 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:12.720 so that means it's the evening, it's getting dark, and 177 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.639 that means you're, however far away from camp you are. 178 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:18.120 You know, you got that walk back alone in the 179 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.559 woods by yourself. Never once, you know, out of the 180 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:24.519 years that I was doing that, that I ever feel 181 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:27.919 uncomfortable think there was anything else out there until I 182 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:32.559 had a couple of weird incidences which at least i'd 183 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:37.039 never attributed and I still don't attribute it to Bigfoot, 184 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:40.879 but I do. I can't explain what they are, which 185 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:46.960 opens my mind to the possibility for the other. So 186 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.519 my my sergeant and my other cop friends who are 187 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:55.799 leasing this property. My sergeant in particular is really big 188 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:59.679 into Bigfoot, the shows. He was already looking at Bigfoot mapping, 189 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:02.360 probably Jax, you know, b Fro all that kind of stuff, 190 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:07.200 and it became a like a conversation piece around the campfire. 191 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:10.200 Then us kind of bonding over it, and it just 192 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:13.320 kind of organically grew from that point to where we're 193 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:15.679 sitting around the fire having beer, watching all the big 194 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.799 Foot shows, you know, laughing at some of the silly 195 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:21.440 stuff as cops, you know, go oh, that's a bunch 196 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:23.360 of crap. Buy in that dude's line, you know, saying 197 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:26.320 silly stuff like that, while we you know, we have 198 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:28.600 our own commentary. But that's how it kind of grew. 199 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.200 It just kind of grew naturally to there. And then, 200 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:36.399 like everybody at work knows, you know, I started getting 201 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:40.360 Christmas ornaments, you know, like Bigfoot Christmas ornaments, you know, 202 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:45.039 hanging on my door at Christmas times. Stickers, coasters, coffee mugs, 203 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:48.519 you know, stuff people were picking up. So it hadn't 204 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:55.399 been a really bad thing for the most part, absolutely accepted, 205 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:59.919 mainly because the things that I've done, you know, like 206 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:05.240 we were talking before, I'm pretty much pretty much bound 207 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:07.360 to what I can and can't say, just like everyone 208 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:11.120 would expect, you know, since I'm still employed by them, right, 209 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:15.120 But I've been told that as long as I keep 210 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:20.039 it professional and anything that I write, as long as 211 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:23.080 it's on the same level as what I would put 212 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:29.679 out professionally, then it's fine. So that's well. I've been 213 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:33.240 like writing, like I've written several friends or reports for 214 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:36.279 a couple of people on some you know, big name 215 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:39.039 casts and stuff like that, so they could see it. 216 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:42.360 So that's been fun. So now I have a couple 217 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.200 of people sending me some like really nice casts for 218 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:47.200 me to take a look at and right, and that 219 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.879 was really my main goal. But you know, besides trying 220 00:13:50.919 --> 00:13:53.399 to help everybody else, I was hoping I could start 221 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:56.759 actually analyzing stuff, which is now started to happen. So 222 00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:57.480 that's pretty neat. 223 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:01.320 Have your thoughts on the subject changed any since you 224 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:04.279 began this journey? 225 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:07.799 Yeah, I mean I've gone through a roller coaster ride 226 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:12.559 of you know, just like anybody would, I think you 227 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:19.399 run across or you have a a preconception of how 228 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:23.639 people are, and unfortunately, I was one who let some 229 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:26.440 of the TV personalities, you know, lead me in a 230 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:29.679 certain direction of thinking, you know, Okay, you can trust 231 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:32.799 these guys, or you know, they seem professionally, seem nice, 232 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:35.679 you know, stuff like that, or hey, you know, you 233 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:38.799 need to read this book. This anthropologist wrote this, you 234 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:41.799 know this anthropo, you know this scientist wrote that about 235 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:47.320 the subject, and then you read it and you realize 236 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:50.879 that a lot of this is for the entertainment industry 237 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:57.320 instead of furthering the research. Now, I almost stopped completely 238 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:01.519 because of that, But then I ran across several people 239 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:04.720 who are actually really serious in the field who kind 240 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:06.759 of gave me a different direction to go on and 241 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:09.559 started helping me, you know, with casts and kind of saying, hey, 242 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.120 stop stop stop thinking that way. You know, here's some stuff. 243 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:16.960 I've seen some casts that were, you know, like big 244 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:20.799 time cast that I call bs on. Then I've seen 245 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.679 some casts come across recently that, you know, have me 246 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:29.759 a little perplexed. I'm not finished with one particular one. 247 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.519 I go ahead and say, Cliff Barrettman sent me one 248 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:37.120 that I'm actually a little perplexed on right now, and 249 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.840 I'm hoping that I don't find anything that makes me 250 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:44.720 say otherwise. You know, that's always the hope. Yeah, But 251 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:47.840 I treat each one like it's hoaxed and go from 252 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:54.559 there right and or misidentified or you know something, because honestly, 253 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:57.799 I don't have what we call an exemplar, you know, 254 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:02.720 an actual bigfoot footprint or bigfoot cast that we know 255 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:05.399 for sure we watched a big foot make it, and 256 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:08.600 I can say that is actually from the foot, right. 257 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:11.720 We don't have anything like that. We have speculation and 258 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.399 we have good, you know, contextual evidence and things like that, 259 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:20.559 but nothing definite. 260 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:24.679 Have you examined the Patterson track cast? 261 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:27.519 No, I have a copy of it, and it's a 262 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:31.720 very very poor copy. I don't, you know, that's that's 263 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:33.679 one of my things, you know. If I hadn't, I 264 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.559 can't speak to it. Yeah, you know, really, if I 265 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.279 haven't actually seen it, seen it. So, I mean, I 266 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:42.600 actually have it on my wall, you know, behind my 267 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:46.200 I look at it all the time, and right above it, 268 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:50.440 I right above it, I have a bear cast, you know, 269 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:52.559 to remind me of, you know, what a bear looks 270 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:55.399 like and what this looks like. And that took me 271 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:57.600 down a whole other road, because now I'm in the 272 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:01.080 middle of a big bear research project. I figured I 273 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:04.160 couldn't speak authoritatively and say something made it looks like 274 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:05.720 a bear and a cast if I don't know anything 275 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:09.279 about bears. Oh my god. You know, you just kept 276 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:11.880 on going down in a rabbit hole. 277 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.839 Yeah, that's part of the problem. And I'm sure you've 278 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:20.119 already encountered. I mean, just that question that I just 279 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:23.480 asked you about the Patison track. I know recently on 280 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:26.880 Facebook you posted some stuff about a Freeman cast. 281 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:29.799 Oh yeah, yeah, I did. 282 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:34.319 And you're not in a great position in your line 283 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:36.119 of work whenever it comes to Bigfoot to make a 284 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:36.799 lot of friends. 285 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:40.519 No, and I'm probably not going to make a lot 286 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.599 of friends in the Bigfoot world, you know. But my 287 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:46.480 goal isn't to try to make friends, and my goal 288 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:50.119 isn't to try to get speaking engagements. I'm actually searching 289 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:54.759 for the answer myself. So and one of the things 290 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:56.640 that we have to do. Remember when I was talking 291 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:59.400 about having you know, what we call an exemplar, you know, 292 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:02.119 like that that awesome control sample. We don't have it, 293 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:08.519 but unfortunately we are using a lot of famous casts 294 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:14.799 from the past as exemplars. So my first thought was, well, 295 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:17.359 let me take a look at it. And luckily enough, 296 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.519 I have some first generation copies of these things, you know, 297 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:25.599 with those minute little details in them, and I'll go 298 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:30.400 ahead and tell you that, uh, you know, and I 299 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:32.720 think we allude to this before it's hard to talk 300 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:36.200 about intent as well. You know, so many different things 301 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:40.640 can happen when people find, you know, find an impression. 302 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:43.960 You know, so if you actually found a real bigfoot track, 303 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:46.240 you know a lot of things, you know, especially Cliff 304 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:48.640 likes to bring this up. People like to put their 305 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:50.559 hands in it and go, oh my god, look at this, 306 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:53.359 and they touch them right, you know, right then is 307 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:58.759 not an intent to transform or manipulate that impression in 308 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:01.279 any kind of way. It was just a I'm not 309 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:03.880 thinking and oh my gosh, look at this and they 310 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:08.400 touch it. You know. It's unfortunate because later it's hard 311 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.119 to prove the intent. You know, you can't prove what 312 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:15.279 they you know, what happened unless there was a bunch 313 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:18.039 of people there. But then even so, at this point 314 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:20.440 in the game, I didn't even matter if there was 315 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:22.359 a bunch of people there. No one's going to believe you. 316 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:26.559 So and then you have you know, and then I'm 317 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:30.039 finding with my bare study that during certain times of 318 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:35.680 the year, bear paulpads when to get deposited into certain 319 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:40.319 types of soils and substrates. There dermal ridges can look 320 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:46.160 like and sometimes mimic human friction ridges. So it's going 321 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:48.440 to take more than like a patch of dermal ridges 322 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.759 here and a patch there, because you got people accidentally 323 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:54.759 touching the cast before it's dry enough. When they're pulling 324 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:58.799 it out, they're depositing it unknowingly, you know. So there's 325 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:00.519 all these things are like I speak to like, I'm 326 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:02.960 not gonna if I find something like that, I'll never 327 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:06.960 talk to say it was intentionally manipulated as a hoax, 328 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:09.960 because we just don't know that. There's so many different 329 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:16.759 ways that friction ridges or dermal ridges whatever can't or 330 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.119 that pattern itself can come to be in the bottom 331 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:22.880 of a cast because a lot of times they're not 332 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:25.079 even in the in the substrate there, you know, Like 333 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:27.720 I said, they're deposited while someone's pulling out a wet cast. 334 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:35.839 So you know, I it's it's disappointing sometimes, but because 335 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:39.039 I could, I would hate to find out that you 336 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:43.880 might actually have a real Bigfoot impression that has dermal 337 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:47.119 ridges in it that look to be manipulated, all right, 338 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:50.680 because that would be like the worst scenario, however, because 339 00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:54.200 you might actually have a real impression with something that 340 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:57.440 now is written off as evidence because the dermals don't 341 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:01.279 fit all right, so that could be a bad scenario 342 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:01.759 as well. 343 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:07.440 You mentioned the the cast from Cliff. Is there any 344 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.240 other evidence that you've seen that you believe might be legit. 345 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:13.559 I haven't gotten my hands on a lot of those, 346 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:18.559 like I call like first generation good detail copies. I've 347 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:23.200 seen photos of stuff like some I've seen some photos 348 00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:27.799 that made me go hmm, but that was more for 349 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:31.079 like a handprint or an arm impression or something like 350 00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:37.599 that on some glass. The issue was is again with 351 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.359 the technique of documenting it. You know, these things are 352 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:43.200 coming in, I see them, and as soon as I 353 00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:45.000 blow it up to look at the ridges or look 354 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:49.519 at the details, it becomes pixelated, right, And you know, 355 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:53.200 and that's a that's a huge problem. That's and I 356 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.720 think that's gonna be a huge problem until we start 357 00:21:55.839 --> 00:22:01.680 thinking differently about collecting evidence. Because I've been seeing a 358 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:03.559 lot of you know, like a lot of these expeditions, 359 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:06.160 they're following what some people have told them is the 360 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:11.359 right way. And I guess, and I mean, you know 361 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:13.359 what we've been told this at our own lap too, 362 00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:18.119 that we're overkill, that we have such high expectations for 363 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:22.319 things that we should but we're not we're we're not 364 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:24.279 gonna tone it down. We're always going to be you know, 365 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:26.599 like uh, you know, it should always be to a 366 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:31.200 higher standard because, honestly, if we come across a piece 367 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:34.960 of evidence that may actually be a bigfoot, we're talking 368 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:41.359 about an undiscovered species, and it's not being treated as such. 369 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.039 You know, it should be you know, almost to the 370 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:47.119 level of you find evidence. It should be treated like 371 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:51.079 a homicide. You know, you have you have potential, DNA, 372 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.440 you have, you know potential you know, friction ridges. There's 373 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:57.599 so many different things that we should be going after 374 00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:01.599 instead of just immediately casting it and then holding up 375 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:06.000 the cast as the cast is the proof. And I 376 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.839 think that's a problem. It's almost like collecting souvenirs instead 377 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:15.279 of evidence, and that just honestly needs to change. As 378 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.720 far as the people who are interested in actually using 379 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:22.599 science to investigate things, I get it. Not everybody's into 380 00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:26.400 that or that's not even their goal, and I totally 381 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:29.319 understand that too. But I think for the people who 382 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.519 say that that is their goal, then some things need 383 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:34.799 to change because it hasn't been working for the last 384 00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:39.519 web fifty sixty years, right, I mean, right, So something 385 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:40.480 needs to change. 386 00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:43.799 Let's talk about that. Where are the researchers screwing up 387 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:47.039 at and are they getting any of it right? 388 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.000 Yeah, So the main thing is, well, the right thing 389 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:54.000 is they're going out right, They're actually going out and looking, 390 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:59.680 and they're doing I know a lot of them. You know, 391 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.319 they're doing their best, their trying experiments with food, all 392 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:06.839 different kinds of things. And I think the biggest part 393 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:12.319 of the problem is the documentation. And quite honestly, I 394 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:15.680 understand why when I first went to crime scene and 395 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:17.480 you know, you've seen all these shows, all these movies, 396 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.640 all this cool equipment. I'm going to learn how to 397 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:21.920 do this. So then I go to a crime scene, 398 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:23.880 I do all that cool stuff, and then I spend 399 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:28.960 two freaking days doing reports and documenting everything. Right, That 400 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:35.079 is boring. It's boring. So now we're at the point, 401 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:40.079