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Speaker 1: He Live. This is pet Life Radio. Let's Talk Pets.

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Speaker 2: Hello outdline friends, Welcome to Cataitude. I'm your show host

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Michelle Bourne. Today we have an author who has written

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the most amazing book. You're going to want to stick

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around for this, so stay tuned. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 3: You know the expression cats have nine lives? Well, what

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if you can give them one more? But give them ten?

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Movement is on a mission to help give cats an

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extra life. How with Spain and neoter Spain or Nootering

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your cat helps them live a longer, healthier life and

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it helps control free rolling cat populations too. Learn more

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about the benefits of spae and neuter and meet Scooter

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the neuter cat at Give them ten dot org. That's

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give them ten dot org.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk pets on Petlife Radio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone. I'd like to welcome Rebecca van Layer.

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She is the author of a Cat Welcome Rebecca.

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Speaker 5: Hi, Michelle, thank you so much for having me today.

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Speaker 2: I'm very excited to have you and I have to

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say in reading your book, it kind of is what

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I think a lot of people, especially women, would like

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to say to the world. As you know, women that

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I have cats, because there's so many taglines and this

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that are negative out there, especially for women cat parents.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, I definitely wanted to think about the idea

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of the crazy cat lady and the kind of pervasive

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attitude that the worst thing that could happen to you

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is that you end up alone with cats and take

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that head on, since having cats has been one of

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the greatest sources of joy in my life, and there's

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nothing sad about that.

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Speaker 2: I agree, and I don't know why it became so negative.

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I don't even know why it became so negative. If

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women decide they don't want to have kids, if guys

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don't have kids, that's okay.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So that's also a big focus of the book.

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It's a two year story. I always knew I was

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writing a book about my cats, but I actually didn't

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know that it was also a book about my decision

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not to have kids for like the first year I

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was writing it. And it turned out to be both

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to be about the pleasure and the value of connection

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with beings who we don't make and they're being just

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as much in that as a life choice.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for writing that. And I know what I

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said before I mean, of course, biologically men cannot have kids,

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but there are all kinds of households today, and there's

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I know plenty of male couples that I know, some

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that have kids and some that don't have kids, and

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there's no stigma attached. If you're a woman and you

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decide you don't want bio kids, then there's a stigma attached.

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So that in my mind is screwed up. So again,

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thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, so you have

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a PhD in literature, Yes, so I should call you really,

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doctor Rebecca van Lair.

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Speaker 5: I almost never use that, although I do put it

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on my tickets when I book a plane, so then

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the flight attendant knows that I'm the doctor you know,

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can't help anyone in a crisis. But yes, do you

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have a PhD?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: So this book is through Bloomsberry's object Lesson series, and

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a lot of the people who write for it are

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writing much more academic books and just picking up a

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book that's called cat people might not know what they're

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getting into. So I did want to provide facts and

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research and yeah, definitely having that background made that part

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of it easier. And then there's also a chapter toward

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the end of the book, where I'm talking a little

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bit about other writers who've written wars on cats and

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try to do a little bit of an analysis of why.

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I think some of those books end up having violence

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in them, which is often a surprise to cat people,

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including about my book. So the analytical component there, I

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think that comes from my graduate training. But also sorry

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to all of the people who didn't want to read that.

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Speaker 2: You know what, I could kind of tell as it

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got there. I don't have a PhD, I have an MBA.

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I don't feel like I used that all the time

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that I should start putting that on. Yeah, when I fly,

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why not?

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Speaker 5: It takes work, so it like acknowledge it in the

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situations when it can be that might just be flights

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or the dentist.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and we worked hard for those freaking absolutely, I

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don't know. Supposedly it made me more analytical, so I

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don't know. I think it made me more risk averse

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than anything, because a lot more stats classes, which it's

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not my best thing. It's like, to quote an old

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stats teacher, it's like the haircut like of anyway, let's

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get back to your book. When you added Toby and

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gusts to your life. Did you ever think you would

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write a book where they would be the stars?

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Speaker 5: No, it was not on my radar at all. And

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at that point in my life, I was in graduate

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school and I was working mostly on critical research, but

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I was also writing fiction, so knowing, yeah, I had

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no idea that I would ever write a memoir, much

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less that it would be so focused on those two

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precious goal.

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Speaker 2: For ball, you know what I have to say, and ctitude.

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Especially the last few months, I've had a lot of

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books come through, and I just noticed I'm at my

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two hundred I think it's about two hundred and fiftieth show,

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because there was about seventeen or so from their first host,

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so they had a lot of books. And I really

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like your writing style. I'm not going to critique any

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of the ones before, but what I liked was there

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was a lot of story to it, but also a

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lot of real life with still making it very story.

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The voice of the book was fantastic.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much. Yeah, that's that matters so much

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to me. And then also just having the cats fully

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come across as characters matter so much to me, like

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all of us who are cat people, this is like

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one of the most important beings in your life, your cat.

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But then at the same time, when you try to

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describe them to someone else, the first thing you just

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want to say, as well, they're perfect. So then making

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them a fully fledged character in a book was something

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that yeah, I got to take on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And at one point you said you wanted to

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be a cat.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, so I think can you relate to that?

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Speaker 6: Every day?

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Speaker 5: I just look at how relaxed Gus is, you know,

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just taking his little nap or stretched out just like

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I kind of wish I were you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for the relaxing part, for the no stress part,

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because they never look like they're stress. I grew up

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with dogs first, so and I've had dogs and cats,

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and now I just have cats because both dogs are

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in doggy Heaven or wherever they go for special dog creatures.

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So I wouldn't say I want to be a dogs.

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They seem to work hard.

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Speaker 5: Yes, they have a lot of expectations on them. They're

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supposed to behave a really particular way, whereas cats have

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I think more flexibility.

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Speaker 2: And they get away with everything too.

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Speaker 5: They do.

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Speaker 2: So tell us about the personalities of Gus and Toby.

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Speaker 5: So Gus is a friend was doing commissioned paintings of

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both of them, and he asked me, is Gus a

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cozy boy or a mania? And I thought that was

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so funny because Guss is complete cozy boy. He lives

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to nap. He's an absolute artist when it comes to napping.

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He's always finding both a new place and a new position.

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He's a very flucky white cat with one blue eye

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and one green eye, so he's got this air of

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kind of magic and whimsy about him. And he's also

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a very gentle creature and soul. Now he's on thyroid medication,

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and he's the sort of cat where like you can

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easily just put a cream in his ear and he's

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absolutely not going to fight you much less like or

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scratch or anything like that. He's just kind of like, okay, Rebecca.

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And that's actually the voice that I do for him

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that he talks to me in. So soft is Gus's thing.

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And Toby, on the other hand, Toby is more of

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a tough guy. Toby is originally from Alabama, but I'm

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at him in Providence when I'm met my partner Seamen,

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and you know, he would start a fight with any

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creature that crossed his path. When he was an indoor

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outver cat, possome cat, whatever he wanted to be, dock cat.

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And even when he came inside and started living with Gus,

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when Stephen and I moved in together, he was really

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nice to Gus. They got along beautifully. But he's still

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like you know, top cat, tough guy. Even when he walks,

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you can tell that he's strutting and maniac as well.

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Speaker 2: So they're kind of opposite.

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Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, which is nice because you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I have a hat. Curb three one is she

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was feral till she was fourn and Charlotte I think

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is just misunderstood, is how we she's afraid. She looks

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like an ard bark, you know. She hisses at me,

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my partner. She loves him, but me, no, even if

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I give her shrimp or something. No, No, I'm evil.

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And so sometimes I think, I know, sometimes I could

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be it like that, but not always. Most of the time,

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I'm pretty cool, you know, So you know, we all

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have our inner bach kind of comes out from me.

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And then my diva cat is Mollie, who my significant

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other is love with. So that's the other woman. And

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that they have Dennis, who's.

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Speaker 5: Chillboy because the boy of the household.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was my first cat, which the universe

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picked the right cat because he's part of Maine coon,

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so he's a dog of cats. He's not that big,

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he used to be bigger. I think he's chinking a

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little as he gets which happens. He definitely has nine

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lives and he's just chill. He could yeah anything, and

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he's very chill boy. But it's interesting how you could

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just tell their personalities and cat's personalities I don't think

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are as obvious as dogs, but they definitely have different personalities.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, when you spend time with them.

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Speaker 2: Have you heard that before?

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Speaker 5: I don't know if I've heard it put that way before,

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but I do think that because dogs are in public,

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like people just get to know their friends, and dogs

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in this way where they're you know, on the there

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at the park, they're coming to the picnic, whereas cats

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take more time to open up with people, so outside

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of the people who they live with, other people are yeah,

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can be slower to get to know who they are.

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And then also they I guess like from an evolutionary

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biology perspective, do have less expressive faces than dogs, so

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there's maybe an air of mystery just in the way

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that they look. So yeah, it takes definitely, I think more.

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You should be close enough to the cat and you

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have to pay enough attention to the cat to get

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to know their personality. But when you do those two things,

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then you.

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Speaker 2: Know, yeah, when you know, you know, all right, we're

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going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk past, Let's done, pet acoout Life.

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Speaker 6: Radio, Hetline Radio, Petlight Radio dot Com.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back, everyone, we're talking to Rebecca Van lair. She

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has written the book Cacked. So, Rebecca, in the book

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your partner says it's okay to quote divest from the

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fantasy end quote of having children. So what does this

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mean the contests of the book, even though we talked

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about that a little little bit in the beginning of

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our show.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I think that you know, before it has happened,

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while it's Schrodinger's baby rather than a Schrodinger's cat, you

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have no idea what it's going to be like. But

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in our culture, there is a fantasy that there's kind

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of like nothing better than having a child, that that's

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how you establish a legacy in this world, that that's

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how you experience unconditional love, that that's how you kind

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of like become a full adult. And of course all

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of that is really a cultural fantasy. And I think

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everyone I know who's a parent would say that when

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it comes down to it, it can be some of

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those things, but it's also incredibly challenging. It can be

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incredibly difficult, and it doesn't always work out the way

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that you want it to, whether it's that you never

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have that child, or whether your relationship with that child

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just isn't what you fantasize would be beforehand. So it

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stands for all of these kinds of change and peak experiences,

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but at the same time, for me personally, was weighing

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that against the other important goals that I've established for myself,

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which don't necessarily involve like eighteen years of childcare or

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beepless nights or any of that that involved my intellectual life,

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my writing, what I might broadly call just like my

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relationship to the environment, my cats included, and divesting from

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the fantasy meant taking that cultural expectation and the idea

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of what it might be and putting all of that

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aside and thinking about the things that I actually want

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and whether parenthood is compatible with those. And my answer

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was no. I think that for a lot of people

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it's still yes, but that fantasy just plays such a big,

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big role that it can be hard to even see

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it clearly.

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Speaker 2: I think I think you're right on with that, because

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there's even listening to you. I'm not twenty something, but

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I'm not ancient either, So to give you an idea

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of where I'm coming from, my listeners have see my

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picture said they no, I'm not twenty something, but I

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will never be old in my head. So having said that,

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hearing you, and I'm thinking, you know, people always say,

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even if you're not married these days, oh but you

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know you're not having kids. Why aren't you having kids?

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And it's not selfish to decide No, I want my

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life to look like this. This is what it's going

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to be, and it's my choice. What's wrong with that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, nothing wrong with that. I mean, you know, it's

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really unselfish in a way because you free yourself up

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to be a fun ants to all the other kids

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in your life, to participate in community care, to give

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yourself to people in different ways. So not to say

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that it is selfish to have kids at all by

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any means, but I don't think there's anything selfish about

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choosing not to. It's just a different use of time.

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Because again it's like the how is it selfish if

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there's nothing here that you're depriving anyone else of only yourself?

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Speaker 2: Right, And I don't think it's bad for you. I'm

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talking more society.

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Speaker 5: Staneah, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's.

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Speaker 2: So much harder for women, even though, like that's why

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I said my age, I'm not you know, what is it,

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gen z? But maybe either are say you guys on

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somewhere in between. And even with that mindset, well, these days,

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and we're recording this and almost fall of twenty twenty five,

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these days, without getting too much into politics, things have

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gone a little backwards. I think my personal opinion with

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as far as women's rights, but that's all I'll go

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for with that, because this is not a political show.

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It's about cats. So I do think though, that women

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and men should be able to make those choices and

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not feel pressures from society. They if you don't want kids,

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don't want kids, want to cats instead, go for it.

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Be the best pair, aren't you can? Because I'd say

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be the best you know, two lagged parent you could

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be too, so and be happy to help with your choice.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot of cats that need parents. For

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anyone listening, who needs one? Or do more cats?

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Speaker 2: Yes? So many, so many? Okay, So here's something another

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question from your book. So another line in the book says,

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if dogs are our servants, cats are our shadows. What

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do you mean by this?

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Speaker 5: So that's a part of the book where I'm thinking

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a little bit more about well, I'm not thinking more,

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but I'm confronting the literature that calls cats and invasive

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species and a driver of basically environmental destruction. So, you know, dogs,

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they live a very controlled life, I would say, you know,

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especially here in the United States, like their movements are

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very much controlled by the people who they live, with,

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their routines, everything about their lives. Cats as a species

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have a lot more freedom, and they have historically because

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they haven't been in service to us. They don't work

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for us. Some people say that they actually domesticated themselves,

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that they just came closer to us because they could

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basically get food from us in human communities, and we

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just thought they were cute, so we let them stay

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even though we can't make them work. So in that case,

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they've followed us around kind of their own volition. But

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thinking specifically about the environment, there's obviously a lot that

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humans do to you know, raise ecosystems and areas that

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were once wild and cats, especially outdoor cats beral cat

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colonies historically and now have a lot of freedom to

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take advantage of that and kind of hunt the areas

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that where maybe we've already taken out the apex predators

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or we've created an environment where there's just a maybe

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it's even a nature preserve, like cats get into those.

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So I think that they do what we do in

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a way that we sometimes don't like to confront because

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we don't like to confront what we do either, And

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maybe that's a little bit why people have historically been

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afraid of cats sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe because you you definitely have more and I've

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done shows on this. There's definitely more negative connotations about cats.

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And I've always around Halloween's coming up, so always rund

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Halloween talk about the stigma with the black cats, which

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is such boloney. So but yeah, there's always that that

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there's something evil or mystical or probably because we just

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don't understand them as well because they're stoic creatures. But

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that's the fun of cats.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and I think that their mystery is something fun.

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But also if you're willing to look at them as

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a mirror and think, Okay, they do this thing in

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what ways do we do it too? Like to identify

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with them more can be interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it can. Okay, let's talked about at one point

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you brought a new cat home named Milton, and I'm

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not going to go into detail, but that is a

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dear relative of mine that's no longer with us, So

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it's kind of funny to see the name. So what

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I wanted to call attention to is the fact that

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you challenge the bet about five feline immuna Let's see

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what I say, this feline immuno deficiency virus, and you

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were correct and you switched vets. I applaud that actually,

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because I think that some cat pet parents, pet parents,

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you know, are not comfortable confronting their veterinarian and medical doctors.

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But you know, we're talking about veterinarians for this show.

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So what would you say to them? I've done this,

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and I when I spread this part, I was like, yes, yes,

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go ahead, Yes you're right, you know, and mine was

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over here on the clothing a little bit. But what

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would you say to people that are just kind of

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have a little fear of, you know, confront in the

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event and saying no, I don't want to do this,

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or this is not right, or you said something and

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I have, you know, different information to show you that

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what I'm telling you is is correct.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that for most

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of us, if we heard something from a medical doctor

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either about ourselves or a close family member that didn't

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sit right or seems wrong, we might go out and

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get a second opinion. And with veterinarians, I think that

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it's just as valid, Like, yes, they're experts in their fields,

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but at the same time, they might not be really

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keeping up to date with like really recent research. Their

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training might be a little bit outdated, and they also

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might just not know your creature as well as you do.

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So if you're in a situation where something is just

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like rubbing you the wrong way, then I don't think

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that you have anything to lose by questioning it and

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also doing your own research. That means search, like looking

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in a cat community Facebook group where there might be

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experts or even people who've had cats with similar issues.

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It might be like me actually like going and reading

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peer reviewed research because I can't help myself. But you know,

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if you bring that information to your vet and they

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can't tell you why you're wrong, if they're just kind

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of like, I don't know, or that's how it is,

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like that wouldn't be a good enough explanation for any

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other family member. If you question something, they should have

399
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a really solid explanation for you. And if they don't

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you know, get a second opinion or if you need

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to a new veterinarian.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I like what you said, and I would say

403
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though you said some good points about reaching out to

404
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a cat community. There's a lot of social media these days.

405
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Don't necessarily rely on, as they say, doctor Google or

406
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doctor Ai because that nation is not always correct. It's

407
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a sweet and some of it can be very outdated

408
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because some things are listed without dates, so don't look

409
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at that as the end all. There's also a lot

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of people that are in social media that are technicians

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that do a wonderful job of communicating different things to

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the public. So there's a lot of good information there.

413
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But yeah, do your homework. Don't do the AI doctor

414
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Google business and think that's enough exactly.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, now that our kitties are getting a little bit older,

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there's a little kidney stuff and I don't know if

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you've ever talked about Tanya's Guide to CKD, but it's

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like a website that looks like it was made in

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the nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 5: And there's also, you know, a Facebook group of kidney cats,

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but it's more up to date than what you would

422
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get by looking at TRAGYPT. It's a labor of love

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by people who real people who really research this and

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know what they're doing. And so that's the kind of

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information that you're looking for, information from other real cat

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people with names like Tanya.

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Speaker 2: No, but I will check into that. I hadn't heard

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that before.

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Speaker 5: If you end up having kidney stuff, the go to resource.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for that. So, if Toby or Gus could

431
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have given you one piece of advice, what do you

432
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think it would have been?

433
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Speaker 5: Oh? I think they would be with they're very different personalities,

434
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it would be very different advice.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So what would Toby say?

436
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Speaker 5: I think Toby would say try harder, like you know,

437
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and he always did.

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Speaker 2: Nope, I'm wrong. It is you'r a feisty cat.

439
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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, he's a icy one, yes Toby.

440
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Speaker 2: I okay.

441
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Speaker 5: Toby would say try harder to keep going yeah, and

442
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Gus Gus would say it's going to be.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay. Thanks. So lastly, i'd like to ask what

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do you hope readers take away from reading your book.

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Speaker 5: I think that I want readers to read my book

446
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and embrace just like the well range of emotional experience

447
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that you can have with a cat, like they're not

448
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just there to be cute for us that. I think

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that almost anything you can experience in a friendship, you

450
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can experience with one with a cat. And I hope

451
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that people open themselves up to that by reading the

452
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book or revisit the relationships they've had with their cats,

453
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and also just take that out with them with cats

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but also with other creatures.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you Rebecca so much. What kidies do you

456
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have now in your house?

457
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Speaker 5: Guts and Milton, that's what I thought.

458
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you didn't talk about Milton alat but what's his personality?

459
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Speaker 5: Milton is an absolute clown. I've never known another cat

460
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who is just so profoundly silly. Every single time I

461
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look at him, I start laughing and then also say,

462
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don't look at me like that. And how he's looking

463
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,440
at me, it's with a combination of goofing off and

464
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trying to get my attention and judging me a little,

465
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and just all that he's a funny guy.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's funny. So tell us where can people buy

467
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:06,359
your book?

468
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 5: Pat is available wherever books are sold, That includes Bloomsberry,

469
00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:16,039
the Publisher, Bookshop dot Org, Amazon, or best of all,

470
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,079
place in order at your local indie bookstore.

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00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,559
Speaker 2: Okay again, thank you so much for coming on Patitude.

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00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 5: Thank you, Michel.

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Speaker 2: This was so fun. I hope everyone enjoyed this show.

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This is a really good book. It's called Cat by

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Rebecca ben Blair, and I just thought it was a

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00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:35,640
wonderful book. I want to thank Rebecca for coming on Platitude.

477
00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:39,680
Thank you my loyal listeners of Platitude. I appreciate you

478
00:26:39,759 --> 00:26:43,440
so much. Thanks to my cat crew, Dennis, Charlotte and Molly,

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00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:48,000
all different personalities, and you know, they've taught me a lot,

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00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,440
not just about cats, but about life. So if you're

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00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,960
listening and just thinking maybe I should get a cat,

482
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,759
you know what, get two. They should be not sold,

483
00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:00,359
they should be adopted in pairs because too are better

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00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,559
than one. And of course, thank you to my amazing producer,

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00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:06,480
Mark Winter for all you do. Thank you so much. Mark,

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00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:09,640
and hey, Lisa Attitude, have Alatitude.

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00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,279
Speaker 4: Let's Talk pets every week on demand only on petlight

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00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:30,599
Radio dot com.