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Speaker 1: Up in that tree?

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Speaker 2: What you doing up there? Why you scarce? Why you

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run it from every de bad? You ran from nan

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treu and from me.

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Speaker 3: Man till the monkey.

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Speaker 4: Like the email monkeys with the bananas between the trees

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hanging down upside down.

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Speaker 3: That's a smile side.

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Speaker 5: Tell a monkey what you doing to me?

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Speaker 4: Till until a monkey till a mankcky.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmmmm h the mot.

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Speaker 5: What's it doing to me?

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Speaker 2: De aerd.

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Speaker 6: De mo?

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Speaker 5: You are in a cult.

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Speaker 1: You are not in a church. You invent your own church.

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Speaker 7: Excuse me, you're you're just making an assumption at all

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the saints agree, they do, I.

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Speaker 5: Can go read them. You have no faith. You're acholarly

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a a demon.

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Speaker 7: A boomer part part a demon, a boomer making an

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assumption that deem it a boomer part.

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Speaker 6: Excuse me? Is a demon a.

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Speaker 7: Boomer part art you're a coolarlyement a boomer part out

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a demon.

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Speaker 6: A boomer part excuse me, dement a.

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Speaker 1: Boomer part are a demon?

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Speaker 6: A boomer making an assumption? Are all the councils inspired

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in an errant?

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Speaker 5: The acumenicals the ideas, so there are ecumenical incidents are

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inspired in an errant?

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Speaker 1: Correct. How do you know because the oyster at least

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is another truth.

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Speaker 6: How do you know the oyster leads you to know the

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truth because.

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Speaker 5: They're in acord with all the other ecumenical doctrine, all

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the other parts of the things and the scriptures.

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Speaker 6: You're just making an assumption.

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Speaker 1: You're a scholarly A demon a Boomer part art that.

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Speaker 7: He a boomers breaking an assumption. A demon in a

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Boomer card excuse me? A demon in a Boomer card

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part you're a goggling A demon in.

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Speaker 5: A Boomer card outdoor?

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Speaker 7: Okay, a demon in a Boomer card excuse me? A

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demon in a Boomer card part. A demon you know,

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boomers breaking? Assuming?

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Speaker 1: A demon in a Boomer card part.

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Speaker 6: A demon in a Boomer card excuse me? A demon

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in a.

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Speaker 1: Boomer card part or a demon in a boomer tard outdoor.

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Speaker 7: A demon in a Boomer card excuse me? A demon

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in a boomer hard part. You're a gobbling all that

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demon you.

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Speaker 6: Know, boomers breaking an assumption? Assumption?

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Speaker 1: A demon in a Boomer card part.

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Speaker 8: H.

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Speaker 9: So where do we get the Bible from?

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Speaker 5: Did you even read the cannons? There is only one charge.

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Speaker 10: You are in an occult, you're govern the team a boomert.

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Speaker 1: It's so mean. I'm mute, dude.

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Speaker 5: Is this your for someoney interwebs?

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Speaker 9: I need a jew.

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Speaker 11: Can't take it.

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Speaker 1: He's a little to your boys.

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Speaker 9: I'm you, dude, one plus one plus one equal free.

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Speaker 1: It comes on to do the tree.

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Speaker 11: Why do you pray eat dead people?

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Speaker 9: That the traditions of the new heretic?

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Speaker 1: Un your dude, is this your for some webs?

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Speaker 7: Shaggy?

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Speaker 11: I need a gender jew.

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Speaker 12: Can't take it.

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Speaker 4: He's a little to your boys.

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Speaker 3: Unmute dude.

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Speaker 9: Justification two?

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Speaker 5: Hey Jamie, could you make me an espresso? Welcome everybody.

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It's being a minute. It's been a minute since we

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did open debate. As you know, I can't take the

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low tier slow boys too much, so I gotta take breaks.

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I gotta pause, I gotta go do some other things.

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I got other things to do. But after about a month,

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three weeks, I started thinking I wouldn't mind having a

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stimulating intellectual discussion with someone who disagrees. Although that rarely happens,

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doesn't it rarely happen? What do you think? Low tier

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slow boys? But now and then there are gems, rare

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gems who pop up and impress me. Who knows what

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we'll get today. But you guys know the way this works.

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Hopefully you know the format. You can call in through

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Twitter X. The extreme link is in the chat right there.

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You want to call in if you disagree, if you

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would like to present your best argument against whatever my

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positions are. I listed a bunch of theological things. If

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you want a debate something else. If it's in the tos,

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we're overcounting YouTube, so we gotta be careful. You can

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also bring up geopolitics. You can bring up moral, ethical issues, feminism,

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any of that kind of stuff. You want to bring

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that up. The topics listed are Islam, Catholicism, Protestanism, Evangelicalism, Atheism,

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Hebrew Roots, Judaism, Arians, et cetera, et cetera, Gnostics, Pagans.

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We've got some wotan pagan dudes. They want to come

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on a debate. I'm seeing that pop up a lot more.

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We did podcasts four or five years ago saying that

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pagan neo pagan stuff was going to get really popular

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and be promoted everywhere by design. Here we are. I

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think that's fomented and fostered. So if you want to

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call in and make your pagan objections, you can. That

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is on the table again. You call in through Twitter,

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You enter the X space, the Twitter space, and you

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hit request to speak. When you come on, you will

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be muted. You have to unmute yourself. Unmute dude. Is

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this your first time on the internet, Jaymi, I need

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a hair inet. You can also leave a super chat

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through stream Labs. Shout out to stream labs for sending

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me a hat and a hoodie because I was one

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of the top stream lab ers apparently. And next I

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get a coat. So I'm decked out in swag. Corporate swag,

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corporate Internet streaming swag. I guess that means I just

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beat all the Internet nerds on Twitch. I beat the

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gamer nerds. Is that what that means? I don't really know,

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but I won the superchat competition on stream Labs. I'm

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in the top diamond tier. But that's thanks to you guys.

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You guys actually bought me this amazing black corporate hat

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that says stream Labs and the corporate hoodie that says

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stream Labs. Also, I get a drinking glass that says

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stream Labs and a coat. So I have to advertise

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stream labs. I guess now that I don't mind the hat.

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Those cool and I guess gamers wear hoodies, so that

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makes sense. So I could be a I could be

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a gamer for you guys. I could be whatever you

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want me to be for you. Y'all want some more

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video game streams. We did some resident Evil streams, but

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they didn't get a whole lot of views on YouTube.

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But I don't know what you guys want. Like, everybody

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always wants me to play games that are you played

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Bloomer games? Okay, well, I'm not playing freaking Fortnite. I

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ain't playing Minecraft. I don't put pixels sixteen bit pixels together. Okay,

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I had sixteen bit pixels when I was eleven years

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old on my Nintendo. Okay, I'm not going back to

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sixteen eight bit pixels of blocks and squares. Bro I

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don't know what none of that even is. I'm not

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a Japanese man in nineteen eighty five building a video game.

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But all of the children's the churns they want to

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be Japanese coders in nineteen eighty five building blocked squared

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cows and sheep and pigs. It's not my life bro.

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If I was going to play a game, I might

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play Silent Hill two or something remake, because in that

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game you're fighting what the Illuminati, isn't it. There's two

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games where you fought the Illuminati, Resident Evil four and

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Silent Hill two, right whereas it Silent Hill one. What

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am I talking about? It's called video games. The giant

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half of the Internet is video games. You never heard

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of that, And I'm waiting for people to call in

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with their questions. Thank you. We have I'm talking about

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a cult called Minecraft.

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Speaker 6: I'm you, dude.

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Speaker 5: We also have the upcoming event I want to remind

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you guys of that. You can come see us the

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Horror and Alternative Film Movie Convention. At about four or

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five hundred people that come to this, I'll be speaking

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Tampa Bay Screams Convention. It's a private dinner, separate event

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though with me and I'll be giving a talk on

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esoteric Hollywood and film. You can get tickets to this

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right here, January nineteenth, Tampa, Yo. If you like esoteric Hollywood,

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you're gonna love this talk and you're gonna enjoy Esoteric

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Hollywood three that's coming out. Baby, I'm mute, dude, thirty three. Yes, literally,

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the Masons literally control the number thirty three. Anytime it

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pops up for you Skizo's out there, that's because the

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Masons are literally causing the number thirty three to pop up.

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They own it. They own numbers, but only certain numbers.

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That makes a lot of sense. We did video game

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analyses back in the day. We did a few of those,

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but we didn't get many. We didn't get many. A

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lot of that stuff doesn't get many views. Basically, it's

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just like twenty twenty people that are twenty years old

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want me to cover video games, and that's it. Actually,

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I think the when we covered games that did get

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some pretty good some good numbers. Let's see what's up,

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y'all ready to get this going. We got three or

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four people in line already. We're gonna open it up.

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The way this work says, you can make your argument,

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you can ask a question. You don't have to debate.

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You can call in and ask questions if you want to.

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By the way, I've not been not doing anything in

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the past three or four days. I did multiple other

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people's podcasts, so those should be going up in the

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next few days. So where was Jay for two days

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he didn't live stream. I was on all these other

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people's podcasts, so we got some good but we got up.

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We did a pretty sweet busy Byzantium Islam History podcast

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the other day. We did a super sweet Philosophy of

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Bitcoin podcast today, and then, uh, tonight, I'm supposed to

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do interview with a pretty big name person. I'm not

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gonna say who it is. It's gonna be a little

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bit of a surprise, but uh, she's a big name person.

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We're gonna have a hopefully a good conversation tonight and

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we're gonna open it up again. You're gonna be ummuted.

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Unmute yourself, um mute dude. First up, Byzantine, scumbag, that's

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what I'm talking about. That's a name.

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Speaker 6: I like.

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Speaker 5: His name front Neill, friend to Neille, what's up, friend, Tanill.

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Hey you can hear me, yes, sir this by saying that.

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Speaker 12: I'm Orthodox.

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Speaker 13: I was actually baptized this past Saturday.

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Speaker 5: So good shout out for that. It's good many years

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to you. Yeah, thanks, thanks.

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Speaker 13: I actually got into a Twitter spat with.

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Speaker 5: Some guys.

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Speaker 13: I don't know if you've ever heard of this KJV

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only cult Baptist sext.

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Speaker 5: Like Steven Anderson stuff. Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't

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know any of the people from that, but I'm familiar

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with that. Yeah.

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Speaker 13: Well, they hold that, you know, the King James version

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is the only version that's you know, sure inspired, right,

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and I think they only affirmed the sixty six books, right.

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I just wondered what you would say in response to that.

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Speaker 5: Well, there's a lot of different ways that you could

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go about responding to that. The first is that ironically, historically,

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the King James version included the apocrypha, So if you

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have an old KJV, you'll notice that it includes the

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what they call the apocryph for the Deutero canonical book. Secondly,

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why are we supposed to believe that a monarch If

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you're an independent Baptist, you're pretty much hate monarchy. Why

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are we supposed to believe that a monarch was somehow

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the means by which God providentially produced the supposed, you know,

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infallible Koran version of the Bible, the KJV. Beyond that,

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there's no reason to accept the Protestant Canada scripture, beyond

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the fact that Protestants just arbitrarily say it's the right

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Canada scripture. Because m Jews, well, who decided that unbelieving

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rabbinic Jews determine the canon for the Church, So pretty

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much all their assumptions are fundamentally stupid.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think one of them said that, like.

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Speaker 13: That Ortho and Catholic canon, nobody really uses it some

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weird objections, And then I think one of them said

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that the Dutero canon wasn't really decided upon until like.

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Speaker 6: I forget what he said.

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Speaker 5: I mean, that's yeah, it's just simply not true. You

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can read the Church fathers throughout the first, second, third, fourth, fifth,

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sixth centuries. They cite liberally from the duterocononical texts, and

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they do not typically distinguish between what status they have.

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There's a couple of fathers that do, like Saint Jerome,

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but even Jerome cites the duter canonical text throughout his

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theological argumentation, and so a lot of the times processes

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will say stuff like, well, they didn't they didn't use

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the Dutero canonical text to prove theological arguments. Yeah, they do,

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in fact, and Jerome is not going to be any

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help to a Protestant because Jerome believes in the perpetual

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virginity of Mary. Believes in the episcopacy. He submitted to

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you know, his bishops. You know, he's believes in relics.

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He wrote wrote a old treatise against the Helvidius and

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Vigilanteus about relics and Mary. So, I mean, there's nothing

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Protestant about the choices that they make for the Canon.

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It's just literally just arbitrary. That will God work through

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the king to through King James, by the way, King

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James and and that whole crew, like they're they're monarchs.

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Like why would a Baptist follow a monarch? It makes

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no sense.

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Speaker 13: Well, yeah, that's that's about all I had.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for that. Yeah, just look up kind of some

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history of the Canon and the formation of the Canon,

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because it's really the Council of Trollo for the Orthodox Church,

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which is loosely speaking our canon. Eric Clementino. But that's

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a great question. Yeah. I don't think we've ever had

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a KJV only person calling what's up?

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Speaker 6: Man? Yeah?

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Speaker 14: Yes, so I am an Afrit guy, and.

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Speaker 5: Flow down your what.

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Speaker 14: No I heard before you have been a traditional Catholic. Yeah,

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I don't know if you were SSPX or if you

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held a Seevacantist position, and I also I am a

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critic of Vatican two. And what made you reject the

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Seevacantist position and the SPX position made you commercial orthodoxy,

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That's my question.

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Speaker 5: There were several events and several things. It wasn't like

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one single thing. Yeah, I spent Even when I was

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of the opinion of set of a contism, I still

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attended the SSPX mass because it was the only mass

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that I had access to. So yeah, I was a

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trad cat for many years. I would say, maybe age

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twenty three until twenty nine ish, somewhere in there at

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twenty thirty, so about seven years of my eight or

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nine years of Roman Catholicism. I was a trad cat

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and a pretty hardcore one. Eventually, what I came to

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I think the first difficulty was the question of the

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Universal Ordinary Magisterium. If you read Vatican One, it's very

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clear that you have to follow the Universal Ordinary Magisterium,

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that it's guided by the Petrion Terrorism. So that meant

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I couldn't hold to the SSPX position, which is pretty

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much premised on rejecting many decades of Universal Ordinary Magistriium,

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including even things like the sainthood of John Paul the

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second and other people. So that led me into the

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stay of position just kind of as a logical necessity

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for like I said, several years and then I realized

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that the set of a constant position is probably about

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the equivalent of Protestantism within the Roman Catholic world. It's

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just the most factionalized, divided, split, splintered, and actually a

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bunch of crazy people. So I spent many years in

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a lot of those different groups and circles, and I

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went to you know, Mass is held in people's homes,

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and people's in you know, Hampton in Mass. I mean,

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I've done all of it in that domain. And I

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started reading the Orthodox stuff Church Fathers in about two

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thousand and seven, and that's when I really started to

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have doubts. But I wasn't ready to convert yet, and

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I would say it took me another three or four

305
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years before I read what I think is probably the

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best critique of the Roman Catholic or excuse me, the

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set of constiosposition, which is just simply that you have

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these statements in Etsy Multa and other encyclicals that pretty

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much equate to the rejecting of the set of a condisposition. So,

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in other words, for set of a contism to be true,

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you would have to reject Etsy Malta. And what's rejected

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in nets E Malta amounts to a rejection of the

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set of a consta position. Even though it's against the

314
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old Catholics. The arguments that are made in Etsy Multa

315
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apply exactly perfectly too set of contism. And so the

316
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other thing that I read was John Pontrello's book Set

317
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of Delusion, where he argues that there's really no way

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to have a papacy. Ever, again, this leads to the

319
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conclavist position. So if you want to go be a Conclavist,

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I mean I think, I think if you're at that, I.

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Speaker 9: Follow you.

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Speaker 14: And and and then also I mean, you have been

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a Catholic for a long time, and and I assume

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being a Catholic, you did believe in all the Mariana positions,

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for example the Fatima one. Do you think they're all

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fake or what's your opinion like for example the Fatima apparitions.

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Speaker 5: Well, when I was a Tradcat, I had no problem

328
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saying that there are apparitions, but I always held to

329
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the position that dogmatic revelations trump apparitions. So I mean,

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I was fine admitting that there were apparitions, but they

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didn't play any like crucial role in my approach to doctrine.

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And I remember, I mean, I spent time as a

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trad cat going down the Sister Lucy Lucia rabbit hole

334
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and know what she replaced and what she cloned and

335
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all this nonsense, and it was all just ended up

336
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being idiotic, because yeah, I don't believe or put any

337
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credence in Rome's claims of miracles now, so whether they're

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all faked, I don't know, but it wouldn't matter anyway,

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because we're told not to follow signs and wonders, but

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to follow what's been revealed. So if you base your

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faith on signs and wonders, how are you going to

342
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tell a Coptic person that they shouldn't be Coptic if

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Mary appears in zy Tune, Egypt to the Coptics.

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Speaker 14: Well yeah, well clear, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So apparitions can't be the deciding factor as to which

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faith is correct. And by the way, I've talked to

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trad cats about this and they'll actually argue, oh, well,

348
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I guess the apparition of Mary means that Mary all

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So is revealing herself to the Coptics. So they're part

350
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of the Rumman calolary. So in other words, they ended

351
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up making it an argument for a humanism. So it's like,

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I mean, are you a tragct or not?

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Speaker 6: So you know.

354
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Speaker 5: Yeah, But also but also there have been multiple faked apparitions,

355
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and the CIA is on record. Even E Michael Jones

356
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admits that he thinks that some of these Magiagori and

357
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other ones are fake.

358
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Speaker 14: Sure, yeah, sure, I mean I just think, like, for example,

359
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the Fatima one.

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Speaker 9: So documented, Well, hold on.

361
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Speaker 5: It's so document I mean there were fake there were

362
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fake news stories in the eighteen nineties. So how do

363
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you know it's documented because a newspaper told you that

364
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a bunch of villagers in Portugal saw this. How do

365
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:48,799
you know that?

366
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Speaker 14: I mean, I mean they were living under a socialist true,

367
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and all the media was socialists, and they came there

368
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to prove that that this guy were just and that's

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when the miracle happened.

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Speaker 5: And then that's why, Well that's that's the narrative about Fatima.

371
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But I mean, again, there were fake news stories in

372
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the eighteen nineties. Look up the bat people in the

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Moon story. It's a famous case of the earliest fakings

374
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of news stories I'm aware of. And you don't think that,

375
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like if they wanted to look, here's an argument I

376
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make that if you look up the purpose of Fatima,

377
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Fatima seems to target Russia, and doesn't it just magically

378
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happen to align with the Anglo American establishments designs during

379
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the period of the Great Game against Russia of course,

380
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so it's an anti Russian, pro World War One type

381
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of message that if Russia doesn't convert to the papacy,

382
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Russia will spread her errors. Well, did Mary not know

383
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:52,200
that Marxism communism is not from Russia. It's not a Russian.

384
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Speaker 14: Russian it's more anti communism. I mean it's yeah, sure,

385
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but I mean didn't.

386
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Speaker 5: Well sure, all right, what are you saying? Well, the

387
00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:12,119
elite are communists, so they wouldn't want an anti communist message. Well,

388
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,160
I don't think that the elite. I think the elite

389
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are above communism and capitalism. They are both. So the

390
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,599
people who wanted a World war at one point were

391
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pro like the Rothchills were pro gold Standard and with

392
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,519
Churchill as they're underling. No, they were at one point

393
00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:36,680
publicly against communism but also secretly supporting it. So no,

394
00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:41,279
you can't go by like the public pro or anti

395
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,279
communist stance necessarily to determine whether or not the elite

396
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,680
or or not supporting something, because the elite will play

397
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both sides of these kinds of things.

398
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Speaker 9: Well I guess, I guess, yeah, that was yeah, yeah.

399
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 5: I mean, how would you? I mean, I got the

400
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,079
thing pulled up here. It's a Catholic website talking about

401
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,720
Marian apparitions at the Coptic Church in Egypt. So does

402
00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:11,480
that prove Coptic theology? It was seen by it was

403
00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:13,039
seen by thousands of people too.

404
00:27:13,079 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 6: So.

405
00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:21,039
Speaker 14: Yeah, I would just say, like like the de narratives

406
00:27:21,599 --> 00:27:25,799
of the Fatima appression, for example, like it's it's it's

407
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,480
very obvious that that Portugal, Portugal was under socialist regime.

408
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,599
The people who were going there, they was going there.

409
00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:38,160
They were going there to prove that the disguise are crazy.

410
00:27:39,319 --> 00:27:42,519
That's there was the recently went there, and that's there

411
00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:45,839
were many many commercials. There were photos of the of

412
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,319
the Sun and the Midea because and everything, and the

413
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,119
New New York Times truth about it.

414
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Speaker 6: Everyone.

415
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,759
Speaker 5: You don't think that, okay, but you don't think there

416
00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:55,519
were fake news stories at that time. Nobody fake news stories.

417
00:27:57,039 --> 00:28:02,519
Speaker 14: Yes that like with that, No, in that Fennow, in

418
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:03,519
that Fennow.

419
00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 5: No, I mean again, that's just simply false. There have

420
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,200
been fake news stories since the eighteen nineties. Look up

421
00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:12,279
bat people on the Moon. It's a famous case that

422
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,680
duped all the intellectuals of the eighteen nineties. They literally

423
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,480
thought there were bad people on the moon because a

424
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,079
prominent public newspaper, Chicago Sun or Son Tribune or something

425
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,319
like that, printed a series of articles claiming that the

426
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,920
scientists had proven that there were bat people on the moon.

427
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,839
It's a famous case, and this is way before Fatima.

428
00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:35,279
And I'm just simply making the point that it's just

429
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,160
it's not true that there were not fake news stories

430
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,880
on a large scale, and at the time of Fatima

431
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,480
there were. That doesn't prove Fatima mistake necessarily, But my

432
00:28:44,599 --> 00:28:47,240
point is that what's we'd have no record of what

433
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,920
was seen in this village beyond these supposed newspapers.

434
00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 14: All right, torn sure, and yeah, yeah I think that, yeah,

435
00:28:56,519 --> 00:29:01,920
I think that was my Yeah. No, again, what was

436
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,799
your main argument against like this is a county's position,

437
00:29:05,039 --> 00:29:08,000
and like because yeah, well.

438
00:29:08,319 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 5: If you read John Pontrello's little book, Seat of a

439
00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:14,519
Causees Delusion, he'll make a series of arguments that, for example,

440
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:21,200
you cannot have the fundamental essential components of the definition

441
00:29:21,359 --> 00:29:23,960
of the church a law of Vatican One in the

442
00:29:24,039 --> 00:29:28,839
Roman system undergo a massive change such that the Roman

443
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,960
see loses its visibility. And what I mean is not

444
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,599
even in reference to a period of a brief vacancy

445
00:29:36,759 --> 00:29:40,880
until another opponent or occupant occupies the sea. I'm talking

446
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,119
about the complete loss of visible unity of the entire

447
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,559
church structure for seventy eighty years, which is no longer

448
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,279
in Rome. If you read Vatican One, that's clearly not

449
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,359
seen as a possibility at all. It's a foregone conclusion

450
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,119
that that can happened, because it specifically says that there

451
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,279
will be successors in the Seat of Peter until the

452
00:30:06,359 --> 00:30:10,119
return of Christ. It does not say until some undefined

453
00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:12,759
end times and then there's one hundred year vacancy or

454
00:30:12,799 --> 00:30:14,680
whatever bull crap that stead of a contest put in

455
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,319
there to make it work. It says until the end

456
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,920
till the return of Christ. So if that position is

457
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,039
gonna work. You've got to have successors until the return

458
00:30:24,119 --> 00:30:26,920
of Christ. You can't have this seventy eighty hundred year

459
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,160
vacancy of no popes. Plus all the people who would

460
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,960
elect the next pope are all now also outside the

461
00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:35,640
church and apostates. How are you going to get another pope?

462
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,480
This is where you get the idiot cult people at

463
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,160
Palmar Detroita who believe they've elected a new pope through

464
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,599
a Marian apparition, or you get the Conclavists who believe

465
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,200
it because and they have the argument is that you

466
00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:50,759
have to have popes until the end of the world.

467
00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:54,200
That's what Betican says about Itican one says, So it's

468
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,279
a dead end position. It's a defeater. It doesn't work.

469
00:30:58,799 --> 00:31:02,799
Speaker 14: Yeah, yeah, you should debate some some setivan.

470
00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 12: Have you invited someone like.

471
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, actually, I've asked Jerry Madditis multiple times over the

472
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:12,319
years to come and debate it, and he won't do it.

473
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 14: So all right, all right, yeah, thank you for letting

474
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:16,559
me speak.

475
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 5: Great questions. Appreciate it. Yeah, I mean read Set of

476
00:31:19,759 --> 00:31:22,359
a Concious Solution by John Pontrello. I also did a

477
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,240
three hour talk on the book uh set of a

478
00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:28,559
conscout solution Liberals against Leftists. By the way, John Patrello

479
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:41,680
became War Talks. What's up, dude, what's up dude?

480
00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:43,319
Speaker 9: Anybody?

481
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 5: Hey, what's on your mind?

482
00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:46,519
Speaker 9: I have an idea.

483
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 15: I wanted to get your interpretation on it. I'm still

484
00:31:50,279 --> 00:31:53,839
reading through the bib On. I'm trying to figure out things.

485
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,079
So I have an idea though, and I would like

486
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:58,079
your interpretation on it.

487
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 9: Okay, So there's a I believe that.

488
00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 15: God limits himself. He limits himself because if he was

489
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,519
all powerful, it would be easy choice.

490
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 9: God is good. We just we don't need any faith,

491
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,039
and so he limits himself.

492
00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 15: And in some of the scripture it was stated that

493
00:32:20,279 --> 00:32:27,279
Argentel Michael basically wouldn't accuse Satan of anything because that's

494
00:32:27,319 --> 00:32:30,480
not really. He's not powerful enough, He's not God. He

495
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,559
needs God to sort of back him up. And in

496
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,079
my mind that means that Satan is kind of like

497
00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:42,440
an all powerful not obviously not as quite as as

498
00:32:42,519 --> 00:32:46,480
God himself. But my question is if that is true,

499
00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:50,480
if Satan is an all powerful kind of like God,

500
00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:57,680
maybe maybe the world itself is being pulled towards an

501
00:32:57,759 --> 00:33:02,640
equilibrium good versus evil, always being pulled to the center,

502
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:04,400
and in the center.

503
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 9: Is where we human beings get to choose.

504
00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 15: We choose good side versus bad side. He's not God's

505
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:13,440
not going to come.

506
00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:15,519
Speaker 9: To face to face and say this is me.

507
00:33:16,119 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 15: It's easy to believe, right, It's going to be more

508
00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:23,200
of a more of a It has to be a choice.

509
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,559
And I was wondering for I was wondering if you

510
00:33:28,559 --> 00:33:32,680
had like any input on this, because I do believe

511
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:33,799
God is all powerful.

512
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,359
Speaker 9: He is the one true King. He can do anything.

513
00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:38,400
We have to build a relationship with him.

514
00:33:39,759 --> 00:33:41,599
Speaker 5: So this is kind of so the first thing I

515
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,599
would say, it sounds like this is like a Manichy

516
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,920
and Gnostic duelist type of position. So, no, Satan is

517
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,720
not like the co equivalent or the flip side of God.

518
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,559
Satan is a creature, and so everything that is created

519
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,400
is very much so inferior to the uncreated. God alone

520
00:33:58,519 --> 00:34:03,759
is uncreated. So anything that has a created status is temporal,

521
00:34:04,319 --> 00:34:10,519
subject to change, flux, limited, finite, et cetera. So angels

522
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,039
and we believe Satan Lucifer is an angel, He's basically

523
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,480
equivalent to a cherub or some high ranking angel. According

524
00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:24,519
to Ezekiel. So the reason that Michael says in that

525
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:30,800
discourse that he would not rebuke the double is because

526
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,159
of the ranking of the authority, in the same way

527
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,440
that David doesn't rebuke Saul. Even though Saul is a

528
00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,960
wicked king, Saul still had authority, and so he was

529
00:34:41,039 --> 00:34:44,199
respecting the authority structure that was set up. So it

530
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,199
has nothing to do with like Satan being almost almighty

531
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,960
or close to God. No, he's not anywhere close to

532
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,519
almighty or God, because only God is almighty.

533
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,679
Speaker 9: And if you think then that.

534
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 15: God wants us to be sort of in a in

535
00:35:04,039 --> 00:35:09,800
a continuous center, being continuously centered, so that we have

536
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,079
to choose good evil kind of thing, do you think

537
00:35:13,119 --> 00:35:18,239
he is trying to just you know, push just enough

538
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,039
so that it's just always somewhat in the middle, there's

539
00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:23,280
always a choice, or do you think there is an

540
00:35:23,639 --> 00:35:26,559
end goal Everything will be good eventually.

541
00:35:26,639 --> 00:35:27,559
Speaker 9: Kind of yeah.

542
00:35:27,639 --> 00:35:30,559
Speaker 5: Paul says that all things will be God will be

543
00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:33,239
all in all, will be all in in all, So

544
00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:36,679
eventually good will be completely the norm and there will

545
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,320
not be any possibility of deviation or rebellion. So evil

546
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,880
will be completely stamped out. But evil doesn't have being

547
00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:47,599
or substance. It's a privation or a negation. It's not

548
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,880
a thing. It's an action against the good is all

549
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,840
that it is. So to restore things to the adenic

550
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,639
state would be to simply remove the possibility of that negation.

551
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,760
It's not a destroying of anything physical or substantial.

552
00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 15: So so you I understand really basically there is an

553
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,239
end goal. The end goal is to create all good

554
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:18,840
heaven on earth and really to to get rid of evil.

555
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,840
I mean basically there there is that objective goal.

556
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,039
Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, So we believe it's a

557
00:36:28,119 --> 00:36:31,920
restoration of all things to their proper natural state, which

558
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,159
is what Eden was.

559
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:34,280
Speaker 6: And so.

560
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 5: Evil was not what God intended according to the Deutero canon.

561
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,559
It's something that went against his will. He tolerated it

562
00:36:42,639 --> 00:36:46,280
and permitted it, but will through the actions and resurrection

563
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,280
of Christ, restore the entire universe to what was intended

564
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:51,480
to be the case in Eden.

565
00:36:53,599 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 9: Then then why do you.

566
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 15: Think God does everything that he can to push is

567
00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:02,480
good to get rid of evil?

568
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 9: Or is he letting us kind of choose it or I.

569
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,039
Speaker 5: Think he Yeah, we synergize and participate with God. So

570
00:37:11,119 --> 00:37:14,559
it's not an all all one sided thing. He intends

571
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,800
for there to be a period of training up in virtue,

572
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,199
a period of you know, choosing the good as you're

573
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,000
putting it in to become like him before the restoration.

574
00:37:30,199 --> 00:37:33,679
Speaker 15: I appreciate. Do you have, like any kind of scripture

575
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,280
I can look up that comes to mind? Person clarity

576
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:43,880
on this about what about God's pushing of the synergy

577
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,480
between human beings and God and his end goal of

578
00:37:48,119 --> 00:37:48,880
being Yeah.

579
00:37:49,119 --> 00:37:52,559
Speaker 5: So basically Colossians one, two and three in Romans eight

580
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,360
describes the cosmic scope of everything that we're talking about.

581
00:38:00,559 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 9: I really appreciate it.

582
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 6: Thank you.

583
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 5: Yeah. So to the Calvinist dude in the chat, if

584
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,920
he doesn't want to call in, he just boot him. So, oh,

585
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,519
I don't have a MIC, but I don't have a

586
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,960
I only have a dial up phone. But he's sitting here.

587
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,320
I don't have a I don't own a mic, but

588
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,239
I'm a presepper. Oh no, Mike, all right, Well then

589
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,159
too bad. This isn't a vehicle for you to just

590
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,800
yap and spam the chat. So it's it's a vehicle

591
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,800
for people to call in and debate. So later, dude,

592
00:38:31,039 --> 00:38:32,519
I'm talking to the dude in the chat, not the

593
00:38:32,559 --> 00:38:36,000
guy that called in so you call in here through Twitter.

594
00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:45,679
He has a rotary phone, but he is typing on

595
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,840
the internet. I can't tell. This dude has no name.

596
00:38:50,039 --> 00:39:01,039
Al o' kwan al Okwan, Hakeem olaja wan. Oh wow,

597
00:39:01,079 --> 00:39:01,599
that was fast.

598
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:02,519
Speaker 12: Hey, jail's it going?

599
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 5: What's up, dude?

600
00:39:04,119 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 6: Hey?

601
00:39:04,679 --> 00:39:07,639
Speaker 16: I just wanted to bring a different kind of perspective

602
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,880
a little bit and maybe a little bit of follow

603
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,000
up too. I'm not here to cause any trouble. I'm

604
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,000
not here to mock. I'm just just bringing up a

605
00:39:14,039 --> 00:39:14,639
different idea.

606
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 3: You know.

607
00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:18,199
Speaker 16: So back in the day, I remember, you know, I mean,

608
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,280
not that I was from a thousand years ago or not.

609
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,039
Just from my readings, I was aware that a lot

610
00:39:23,079 --> 00:39:25,519
of these debates were kind of solved with sword and shield.

611
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,079
And my question is, why are we going back and

612
00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:30,519
forth debating with these people when we should be killing them?

613
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:37,559
Speaker 5: Okay, good job, Fed, Yeah, I mean, if you think

614
00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:41,440
about it, Yeah, that's really funny. Okay, Yeah, go fed

615
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,880
elsewhere fed X maybe joe Ed Lopez, what's up?

616
00:39:52,760 --> 00:40:05,079
Speaker 6: Hey? So? Okay, so ring orthodox. I know there's a thing.

617
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: About salvation only found in the church.

618
00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:12,519
Speaker 8: What's your thoughts on when people say, well, the thief

619
00:40:12,599 --> 00:40:15,920
on the cross was you know, accepted into the kingdom.

620
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 5: Well, the thief on the cross was Orthodox, So what

621
00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:25,039
do you mean, Well, like salvation has to come through

622
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:25,800
the church.

623
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 6: There's no church stablished right now.

624
00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:29,679
Speaker 5: Well, the church is the mystical body of Christ, and

625
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,599
so the thief on the cross is joined to the

626
00:40:31,639 --> 00:40:33,280
mystical body of Christ on the cross.

627
00:40:39,199 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 17: So even though he didn't have understanding of the Trinity

628
00:40:42,559 --> 00:40:44,559
or any other traditional doctoral.

629
00:40:44,679 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 5: Well, we're not saved by our degree of understanding. We're

630
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,639
saved by our repentance and humility. So understanding comes along

631
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,880
with that. So no, it's not like you get a

632
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,079
thhd to be saved. You're you're saved through repentance and humility.

633
00:40:59,159 --> 00:41:01,199
But that's great. It's a question. I understand what you're saying. No,

634
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,119
I don't think that you have to master all the

635
00:41:03,159 --> 00:41:08,159
theology to be saved. But to the evangelical person in

636
00:41:08,559 --> 00:41:10,639
the chat, if you're not going to call in, this

637
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,519
is not for you to spam your complaining about people

638
00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:18,599
saying cuss words. So either come in the bay or

639
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:24,480
you leave. It's not for your virtue signaling here, what's

640
00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:29,559
this person's name. They already get booted where they go.

641
00:41:31,079 --> 00:41:32,480
Hold on, I need to put this on lot where

642
00:41:32,519 --> 00:41:34,880
I see all the chat because I forgot to do that.

643
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:40,599
There we go, Mario, the tri yun yahweh okay. So

644
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:45,159
anybody using this goofy Hebrew names for God, we already

645
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,039
know what kind of nonsense this is. So Mario, either

646
00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:49,880
you call in or you get booted. This is not

647
00:41:50,119 --> 00:42:07,639
a place for messianic heresy. Chat Aw, what's up, hi dai?

648
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,199
Speaker 9: I have a question about baptism.

649
00:42:14,159 --> 00:42:17,039
Speaker 18: Are there what counts as I mean, I know what

650
00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:19,400
baptism is, it baptism is, But what I'm getting at

651
00:42:19,519 --> 00:42:24,039
is does it have to strictly be within the Orthodox

652
00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:26,440
Church to be counted as baptized?

653
00:42:26,559 --> 00:42:29,519
Speaker 5: I mean yes, because only the Orthodox Church can give

654
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:32,480
you the faith. You can't divorce the sacraments from the

655
00:42:32,559 --> 00:42:34,519
faith and the community that gives it to you. So

656
00:42:34,599 --> 00:42:37,800
it's the Roman Catholic position that thinks that atheists and

657
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,960
Muslims can baptize you. We don't believe that you have

658
00:42:41,079 --> 00:42:42,920
to be baptized in the Orthodox Church. And that's why

659
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:48,480
nobody prior to the early medieval acceptance of the idea

660
00:42:48,559 --> 00:42:52,159
that pagans and atheists can baptize you. Nobody ever taught

661
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,599
that until Rome worked that out via the presuppositions of

662
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,360
Ex Opera Operato that Augustine had. So, yeah, you have

663
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,360
to be baptized in the Orthodox Church with Orthodox katechisis.

664
00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:08,280
Now does that mean that I'm therefore damning everyone outside

665
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,320
the church. No, I don't know people's destiny outside the church.

666
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,719
Paul says that it's not our job to judge those

667
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,280
outside the church. But I know that for you to

668
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,400
have correct Orthodox baptism, it's in the Orthodox Church that.

669
00:43:20,519 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 6: I do know.

670
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:23,039
Speaker 9: Okay.

671
00:43:23,159 --> 00:43:25,639
Speaker 18: So I mean if someone is baptized, say in some

672
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,239
Lutheran or even an Evangelical church, with that being null

673
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,440
and void and null I actually count as baptism.

674
00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 5: Well, the church can determine that maybe you were baptized

675
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,360
in the correct form, in the correct words, and in

676
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,719
the correct ritual. But the heresy in our view, and

677
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,599
ironically even Augustine believe this, even though he recognized the

678
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,599
quote validity of the baptisms outside the church. The impediment

679
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,760
to the reception of the grace is the heretical confession.

680
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,679
So sometimes the word church receives people from those groups

681
00:44:03,159 --> 00:44:07,360
via the rejection of the heresy. Sometimes the church determines

682
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,039
that you need to be baptized because it didn't even

683
00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:12,960
count as a baptism. For example, some of the novsorto

684
00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:15,239
Catholic churches baptized people in the name of the land,

685
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,719
the sea, and the air, so that by most, hopefully

686
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,639
most Orthodox priests and bishops would not even be considered

687
00:44:22,639 --> 00:44:26,559
a baptism at all. So that can be abused because

688
00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:29,159
there is a degree of economia there, and sometimes that's

689
00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:32,280
abused for the purposes of a humanism. But the basic

690
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,400
principle still stands that yes, in order for the baptism

691
00:44:36,519 --> 00:44:39,039
to be an Orthodox baptism, it needs to be the

692
00:44:39,199 --> 00:44:42,719
Orthodox Church baptizing you. And if the church decides that

693
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,320
you don't have to be baptized because the ritual is doncorrectly,

694
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,000
then the impediment to the reception of the grace is

695
00:44:50,079 --> 00:45:00,480
removed by the rejection of the heresy. Okay, great question, Yeah,

696
00:45:00,519 --> 00:45:01,639
we get that question all the time.

697
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 3: Uh.

698
00:45:02,199 --> 00:45:04,039
Speaker 5: Cal let's see, we got a bunch of people here.

699
00:45:04,119 --> 00:45:07,719
Let's see. Uh whoa, we just got ten people online

700
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,000
packed up. Now some people have been waiting for a while.

701
00:45:11,039 --> 00:45:12,880
Let me find somebody's been waiting for a good while here,

702
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,199
Jaguar has been waiting. What's up, dude.

703
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,079
Speaker 17: Oh hi Jay, thanks for having me on.

704
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:31,199
Speaker 5: Hey, So, I'm uh.

705
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 17: I wanted to talk about the Catholic perspective. I've been

706
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,519
mostly convinced by Orthodoxy over the past couple of years,

707
00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:39,760
but I've been looking into the Catholic side more try

708
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,559
to make sure I don't have any blind spots or

709
00:45:42,639 --> 00:45:46,400
too much of a bias. Sure, but it seems when

710
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,559
I when I see debates on the two, there's a

711
00:45:48,639 --> 00:45:51,519
lot of quote mining on both sides where this guy

712
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,519
this church father said this, and that church father said that.

713
00:45:54,639 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, everybody engages in unquote mining, which is yeah, which

714
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,599
is kind of unfortunate, but yeah, and it.

715
00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 17: Would see to me the burden of truth is much

716
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,559
higher for Catholics just to the nature of them claiming

717
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:06,519
authority over the whole.

718
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean the Vatican One claims are pretty you know,

719
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,039
heavy duty claims. Yeah. So yeah.

720
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 17: One thing that I noticed it seems if the pope

721
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,239
is who they say he's supposed to be, that it

722
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,159
seems like one of their strongest arguments should be examples

723
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,599
of how modern popes are acting and behaving, and it

724
00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:29,960
seems like that's the last thing.

725
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 5: They want to talk about. Yeah, I think that's the

726
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,719
crack in the armor that they feel like has to

727
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,400
be avoided. And it's not just the quote behavior of

728
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,599
the popes, because they're always going to deflect and say, well,

729
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,519
we never claim that the pope is impeccable. He's just

730
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,840
theologically infallible when he's speaking execathedral blah blah blah blah blah.

731
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,639
But that's missing the point that some sins in Catholic

732
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:01,079
theology are unique in that they rem you from the body,

733
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,679
those being heresy, schism, and apostasy. Those are unique sins

734
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,320
in Catholic moral theology and canon law, which are still

735
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,320
on the books. It's still in the modern post nineteen

736
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,039
eighty three John Paul the second Canon law that if

737
00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:18,440
you commit heresy, apostasy, and schism, you are excommunicated ipso

738
00:47:18,559 --> 00:47:21,960
facto laate sententia, that is, without any declaration of an

739
00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:25,440
authoritative body, by virtue of the action itself. The same

740
00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:28,519
penalty is given for the example, for example, for Catholics

741
00:47:28,519 --> 00:47:31,920
that procure an abration. If you, as a Roman Catholic,

742
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,199
a faithful procure and abraution. You are supposed to be

743
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,159
immediately excommunicated for that action. It doesn't require the bishop

744
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,400
meeting in a sonata a council and pronouncing you like

745
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,800
you know Beckett and the movie back, Oh Got Way,

746
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,159
Excremator Kiko. It doesn't require any of that. That's what

747
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,559
the word latte sententia ipso facto means. So ninety nine

748
00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:56,599
percent of Roman Catholics don't know that. They don't they're

749
00:47:56,639 --> 00:47:58,920
not aware of that. They don't know their own theology.

750
00:47:59,039 --> 00:48:01,559
They just assume because they repeat all the pop stuff

751
00:48:01,599 --> 00:48:04,719
that their car salesman. Apologists all put out online that

752
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,960
the pope's not impeccable, he still has sins. He's just

753
00:48:09,079 --> 00:48:12,199
infallible when he teaches theologically for the entire church. And

754
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,800
so I don't have to accept anything that Francis says

755
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,880
except when, except when, I deem that he's teaching theologically

756
00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:20,280
for the whole church. And it doesn't work like that.

757
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,719
That's not true, true right when and Vatican one says

758
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,480
that you're not just bound by extraordinary magiesstarium, you're also

759
00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:31,199
bound by the universal ordinary teaching, which is infallible just

760
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,559
as much as extra extraordinary is and you're also bound

761
00:48:34,599 --> 00:48:37,639
by his ordinary teaching, which is fallible, but even though

762
00:48:37,639 --> 00:48:40,599
it might error, you must submit with docility. So there's

763
00:48:40,639 --> 00:48:43,440
no room for this papal minimalism that they're trying to

764
00:48:43,519 --> 00:48:47,280
push to save the position. It doesn't exist. It's nowhere

765
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,519
in the mind Vatican one. It's a post Vatican two

766
00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:53,599
invention of the Neotrads who want to save the position

767
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:54,360
and make it work.

768
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 6: Yeah.

769
00:48:56,039 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 9: I think I saw in a debate.

770
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 5: It may have been when you did where a didn't a.

771
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,159
Speaker 17: Pre us pope say that you're basically excommunicated if you

772
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,679
worship in another religion's temple and then hush pots.

773
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, Mortalium Animos says. It's famous and cyclical from nineteen

774
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,039
twenty eight to Pisti eleventh. It says that if you

775
00:49:12,119 --> 00:49:15,480
participate in the interfaith gatherings, it is apostasy.

776
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 17: Okay, So if that pope was able to time travel

777
00:49:20,119 --> 00:49:23,280
and show up, he would excommunicate the popes.

778
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:23,639
Speaker 6: That we're here now.

779
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 5: He would probably say it's the it's the great apostasy

780
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,159
the church is, you know, yeah, exactly, Yeah, I mean

781
00:49:31,159 --> 00:49:32,559
I don't know what he would say, but something like

782
00:49:32,639 --> 00:49:33,920
that probably. Yeah.

783
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,079
Speaker 17: One last thing I wanted to ask, didn't because they

784
00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:39,480
bring up Peter as the kind of the baseline for this,

785
00:49:39,679 --> 00:49:42,599
But didn't Peter start more than one church?

786
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 5: Yes, he is the uh, the founder of multiple sees,

787
00:49:50,079 --> 00:49:52,559
the Patrian Seas. Even as late as Saint Gregory the Pope,

788
00:49:52,559 --> 00:49:55,760
Saint Gregory the Great, he calls the Patrian seas, Rome, Alexandria,

789
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,000
and Antioch. Those three are called by him in his

790
00:49:59,199 --> 00:50:03,079
letters the Petrine Seas. And so what Rome does in

791
00:50:03,199 --> 00:50:05,840
order to counter this is say, well, but Peter died

792
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,519
in Rome, so it's the one that really gets the authority. Well,

793
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,360
where did that come from? That's just made up? Well,

794
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,119
I mean it's not made up. It's true that Peter

795
00:50:14,199 --> 00:50:16,960
died in Rome. But if you look through the evolution

796
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:22,480
of the arguments for papal supremacy and power in universality

797
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,360
and all that, it's an evolving thing. A great book

798
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:29,079
that just came out that discusses this is Sishinsky's book

799
00:50:30,639 --> 00:50:34,159
Papacy in the Orthodox, which really you only need to

800
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,280
read for this for what we're talking about, you just

801
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,199
need to read the chapter that deals with like the

802
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,840
first to seventh century, which is about maybe thirty forty pages.

803
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,320
It's chapters four and five. Those chapters really make this

804
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,880
point very forcefully that you have the idea of yeah,

805
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,639
Peter died in Rome. Yeah, there's you know, there's a

806
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,199
there's an honor that's due to the Petrine seas and

807
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,960
particularly because of it being Peter and Paul. So it

808
00:51:03,039 --> 00:51:06,800
is always traditionally called the see of Peter and Paul.

809
00:51:07,039 --> 00:51:08,920
If you go to Rome and you go to the

810
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,199
latter in Basilica, which is the old traditional first Millennium

811
00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:15,840
seat of the Bishop of Rome, it honors Peter and Paul.

812
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,119
Even in the Vatican, Peter and Poel are situated up

813
00:51:19,119 --> 00:51:23,800
front as if they're equal, right, But the argument of

814
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,719
Vatican I and Leo the thirteenth in statist Cognetium is

815
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,440
that you cannot say that Rome is great because of

816
00:51:30,559 --> 00:51:32,599
Peter and Paul. Paul has nothing to do with it.

817
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,199
It's only Peter, because Peter's a martyr there, and the

818
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,280
blood of Peter in Rome is part of this idea

819
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,760
that just evolves that that therefore gives the Bishop of

820
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:50,840
Rome this wild infallibility universality claim that he didn't have

821
00:51:51,119 --> 00:51:57,039
until centuries later. Okay, well, yeah, I'll check that book out.

822
00:51:57,119 --> 00:51:58,840
I appreciate you. I just wanted to bounce all the

823
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,440
thoughts off you. So Yeah, and everybody should read Mortalium

824
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,199
Animos of nineteen twenty eight, the famous paper and cyclical

825
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:10,039
absolutely condemning any form of the humanism and religious interfaith

826
00:52:10,119 --> 00:52:14,119
prayers and gatherings. And at that time, keep this in mind,

827
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:17,280
Pope Pious the eleventh was merely talking about other so

828
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:22,440
called Christian groups. He's talking about Anglicans, Orthodox and Evangelicals.

829
00:52:23,159 --> 00:52:27,320
He's not talking about praying with freaking Muslims and Jews

830
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,599
and moss and Synagogues and Pagans and Buddhists like John

831
00:52:31,599 --> 00:52:35,639
Paul the Second did so the post Vatican two popes

832
00:52:35,679 --> 00:52:38,800
went light years beyond even what was in the mind

833
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:44,800
of Pious the eleventh to condemn. Does that make sense? Yeah,

834
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,719
that sense. He's just saying, Bro, you can't even pray

835
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,320
with Anglicans, how much more can you not pray with

836
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:51,079
freaking Buddhists.

837
00:52:51,159 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

838
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,639
Speaker 17: I think overall their claims are are pretty pretty ridiculous,

839
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,880
and they were just not at anywhere at the level

840
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:00,880
they would have to be at about what they're What

841
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,559
they're trying to say is what it seems like to me,

842
00:53:03,599 --> 00:53:06,079
I'm not very smart or well educated on this, but

843
00:53:07,079 --> 00:53:07,519
well you.

844
00:53:07,519 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 5: Don't have to be an expert on it to see

845
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:14,920
pretty clearly that the if you read that Skrushinsky chapter,

846
00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:19,400
you'll notice that, oh, it's an evolving thing, like this

847
00:53:19,639 --> 00:53:22,800
idea of you know, for example, Rome was always listed

848
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,480
first because it was the sea of where Peter and

849
00:53:25,599 --> 00:53:27,960
Paul were martyred, so there's an honor that's given to Rome.

850
00:53:28,679 --> 00:53:31,960
But the fact that say, the Council of Nicea lists

851
00:53:32,119 --> 00:53:35,400
Rome as the first of the seas by you know,

852
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:40,639
eight hundred years later, that has evolved into like total autocracy.

853
00:53:41,079 --> 00:53:43,760
So it's clearly an evolution. And here's the irony. This

854
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,119
is another key contradiction. If you read Vatican one, and

855
00:53:47,119 --> 00:53:49,800
if if you read Sati's Cognitium of Leo the thirteenth,

856
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:54,440
these are very important, you know, papal documents about the papacy.

857
00:53:55,159 --> 00:53:58,559
They argue that it's not an evolving thing. So it's

858
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,119
later Roman Catholic apol je x post Cardinal Newman that

859
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,679
adopted the idea that, well, the way to actually defend

860
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,880
and prove this papacy stuff via Vatican one and what

861
00:54:09,119 --> 00:54:11,679
Vatican was claiming is we have to concede that there's

862
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,400
an evolution in this idea. It's a seed that grows

863
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:19,920
into a tree. But Vatican One and Pasta Attornis and

864
00:54:20,159 --> 00:54:24,599
Satis cognitiitum reject the idea that it evolved. In fact,

865
00:54:24,679 --> 00:54:27,239
they claimed that it was always universally the case from

866
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,199
the earliest days of the Church. So it can't be both.

867
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,280
It can't be something that was always universally held and

868
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,760
true and something that was a seed that evolved. Those

869
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:37,239
are mutually exclusive ideas.

870
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,599
Speaker 17: Yeah, I mean, everything about it just seems very arbitrary

871
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,239
to me on their sides.

872
00:54:46,679 --> 00:54:50,559
Speaker 5: So, well, have you read Dictatus pape I mean, yeah,

873
00:54:50,599 --> 00:54:50,880
I have it.

874
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 1: I watched debates on YouTube.

875
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,079
Speaker 17: I haven't really read anything to be honest about this topic,

876
00:54:56,199 --> 00:54:57,320
but I probably should.

877
00:54:57,519 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, this is when you know, in the

878
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,639
eleventh century, the pa it becomes a geopolitical world power

879
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,920
estate and actually takes on all the machinations and operations

880
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,719
of the state, including warfare intelligence agencies.

881
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,079
Speaker 6: So what year would have been this view?

882
00:55:12,159 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 5: Approximately, the Tatas Pappi is ten ninety, but it's under

883
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:19,280
the papacy of Greg Gregory. This seventh and this is

884
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:21,599
called the Gregorian reforms. This is when you have a

885
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,480
vast change in the ecclesial structure in the Latin Church

886
00:55:26,079 --> 00:55:29,719
from what was previously the model of the Orthodox sonodal

887
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,440
Church and in the these are called the Gregorian reforms

888
00:55:33,559 --> 00:55:36,400
because it turns the Latin Church into the papal church.

889
00:55:40,599 --> 00:55:42,719
And this is well known. This is admitted now by

890
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:47,639
Eastern Roman Catholic scholars. Devornik Sishansky used to be a Unia,

891
00:55:47,679 --> 00:55:52,280
it became Orthodox. It's admitted by Kongar and others. It's

892
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,239
by the way, if you just read the Vatican's recent

893
00:55:55,360 --> 00:56:06,480
declarations on on Orthodox discussion, the Alexandria document from June

894
00:56:06,639 --> 00:56:09,199
of twenty twenty three, it admits all this. So the

895
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:13,199
Vaticans basically admitted all this. Okay, I will check that out.

896
00:56:14,199 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 17: Yeah, I mean, I honestly I wrote off the back

897
00:56:18,039 --> 00:56:21,360
when the news with the Catholic Church and the PDF

898
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:27,280
file stuff was it everywhere. I completely wrote off ever

899
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:33,199
even considering it until more recently when I've learned about Orthodoxy,

900
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,679
and then I thought I should give it a fair shake, or.

901
00:56:35,679 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 1: At least try to so.

902
00:56:38,559 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 5: No, I think it's good to know their arguments and

903
00:56:41,079 --> 00:56:43,280
know like kind of what the I.

904
00:56:43,679 --> 00:56:47,079
Speaker 17: Mean, when you only hear their side, they can sound convincing.

905
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,119
Speaker 5: If if well, yeah, I fell for it, I fell

906
00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:51,400
for I fell for papal quote minds. I fell for

907
00:56:51,559 --> 00:56:54,239
forged papal quotes back in my twenties. That's why I

908
00:56:54,280 --> 00:57:00,079
was Roman Catholic. Yeah, so yeah, great, great question A

909
00:57:00,119 --> 00:57:02,719
long time so well same here. So I get you

910
00:57:03,519 --> 00:57:08,280
like to become orthonoxy Yeah, great questions and keep looking

911
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:20,920
into it, keep searching. California Prepper, what's up? I'm you, dude?

912
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:24,559
Speaker 6: Can you hear me? All right?

913
00:57:24,559 --> 00:57:26,559
Speaker 5: I'm driving, Hi, know what's up?

914
00:57:26,599 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 6: Man?

915
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,239
Speaker 5: Hey Jamie? Okay, go ahead.

916
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 9: I have a question.

917
00:57:33,199 --> 00:57:35,239
Speaker 19: I have a family member who likes to flirt with

918
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,880
the Gnostic ideas, and I tried to have discussions with him,

919
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,519
and he likes to quote like the Infancy.

920
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 10: Gospel of Thomas and say also, like.

921
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 19: Hey, the church throughout all this scripture because there they

922
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,519
were corrupt. They wanted to like have their own power

923
00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:55,679
and not have any other ideas in there.

924
00:57:55,679 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 12: How would I respond to some sort of argument.

925
00:57:57,639 --> 00:58:00,239
Speaker 5: Like that, Well, I mean, this is always what gnostics say.

926
00:58:00,519 --> 00:58:04,920
But when you really get into the Gnostic worldview, you'll

927
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:09,039
find out that it's like really contradictory and really arbitrary.

928
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,960
For one, there's not one Gnostic worldview. There's not a

929
00:58:13,039 --> 00:58:17,039
Gnostic tradition. There's a ton of different Gnostic sects from

930
00:58:17,079 --> 00:58:20,000
the first, second, third century, and they're all over the place.

931
00:58:20,079 --> 00:58:26,760
They range from extreme asceticism to extreme indulgence to ritual magic.

932
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,079
I mean, they're essentially all over the place. If you

933
00:58:29,159 --> 00:58:33,920
read the first few hundred pages of Saint Aaronais's Against Heresies,

934
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:35,880
the first few hundred pages is him listing all the

935
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,599
Gnostic sects of the second century. So there's not a Gnosticism.

936
00:58:39,719 --> 00:58:41,920
So the first thing I would go about trying to

937
00:58:42,039 --> 00:58:45,559
demonstrate to this person is that ultimately the position that

938
00:58:45,679 --> 00:58:50,320
he's got is itself very relativistic. And I've never met

939
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,360
a Gnostic who's not a relativist. Doesn't mean there might

940
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:57,440
not be one out there that believes in objective morals,

941
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,519
But if your position is a relativist, you know, moral framework,

942
00:59:02,039 --> 00:59:04,159
it's pretty easy to refute that. So I would just

943
00:59:04,199 --> 00:59:07,320
point out do a basic presep of his ethics and

944
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:11,039
morals as relativistic, and if the morals and the ethics

945
00:59:11,079 --> 00:59:16,159
are relativistic, then is gnosticism also relativistic? So if it's relativistic,

946
00:59:16,239 --> 00:59:18,960
then it's not true. To be true requires it to

947
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:23,039
have universal truth value, and if gnosissism is relativistic, then

948
00:59:23,079 --> 00:59:26,760
it doesn't have that. It's it's a fundamental epistemic contradiction.

949
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 9: Okay, thank you.

950
00:59:32,079 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 19: Any resources that you can guide me towards for extra

951
00:59:35,119 --> 00:59:36,119
stuff to learn, Yeah.

952
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,719
Speaker 5: I've done. I did a talk on Ieronaeus against heresies,

953
00:59:38,719 --> 00:59:40,719
and I have two talks on my channel that are

954
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:44,239
old critiquing gnosticism, so just look up Jay Dyer Gnosticism.

955
00:59:45,039 --> 00:59:48,599
I also did a whole talk on Yarslav Pelicon's Volume one,

956
00:59:48,719 --> 00:59:51,159
which covers the history of these early sex and gnostics.

957
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,320
It's a it's a classic sort of seminary text. Peter

958
00:59:56,039 --> 01:00:05,039
petites us, Uh, what's up, dude? What's a hook do?

959
01:00:07,159 --> 01:00:16,840
Is this your first time on the internet, Jaye?

960
01:00:18,199 --> 01:00:20,239
Speaker 10: Hey it is doctor Pete. I don't know this talk

961
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,079
like jumped for a few seconds, but hey, thanks.

962
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 6: For having me.

963
01:00:23,719 --> 01:00:27,159
Speaker 10: I'm a cradle Orthodox. One of the comments on sort

964
01:00:27,159 --> 01:00:30,679
of the moving target of the understanding of marriage and

965
01:00:30,719 --> 01:00:33,519
the Roman Catholic Church. You know, recently we've heard of

966
01:00:33,559 --> 01:00:39,519
them discussing topics about homosexual marriage, transgender concepts. As an

967
01:00:39,599 --> 01:00:42,320
Orthodox Christian, I never really quite understood a lot of

968
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,880
these discussions. Some rules don't seem that we can break.

969
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,840
Others seem like they've they've broken them unnecessarily. I think

970
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,599
back to why and how priests used to marry the

971
01:00:52,719 --> 01:00:55,440
Roman Catholic Church. I can tell you my father was

972
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:57,159
an eye surgeon and a priest.

973
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 12: And he had five sons.

974
01:00:58,719 --> 01:01:02,199
Speaker 10: And I don't I don't know why in this age

975
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:06,199
of secularism, humanism, that we don't just go back to

976
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:09,960
our roots and free a billion Catholics from having to

977
01:01:10,199 --> 01:01:14,920
endlessly defend a fallen position, which is sort of putting

978
01:01:15,079 --> 01:01:19,519
priesthood against the sacrament of marriage. And I'm just trying

979
01:01:19,519 --> 01:01:22,360
to understand the mindset of Roman Catholic in terms of why,

980
01:01:23,039 --> 01:01:25,559
why that's not something they're willing to compromise on. When

981
01:01:25,599 --> 01:01:29,039
you consider that they're willing to compromise on, you know, well,

982
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:32,000
let's just say making room for homosexual marriage.

983
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 5: In the Christian Church. That's a great point. Yeah, if

984
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,199
you're going to compromise, or from what you see as compromise,

985
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,920
would why would you not go back to the tradition,

986
01:01:42,119 --> 01:01:45,119
which is actually the old ancient tradition of married priests.

987
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,400
I think most Roman Calics don't even know that. They

988
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:52,760
don't realize that that they think that that's a Protestant argument,

989
01:01:53,119 --> 01:01:54,599
So they hear something like that and they think, oh,

990
01:01:54,599 --> 01:01:58,199
that's Protestant, So they just assume kind of default, that

991
01:01:59,559 --> 01:02:04,159
married priests are abnormal when they're actually the normal, you know,

992
01:02:04,239 --> 01:02:07,719
ancient normal state. They also aren't aware that the Council

993
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,519
Trello affirms married priests, and that the sixth and seventh

994
01:02:10,599 --> 01:02:14,480
Councils affirm Tullo. And then they don't even realize that

995
01:02:14,559 --> 01:02:19,039
the papacy, especially the seventh Ecumenical Council, also by default

996
01:02:19,079 --> 01:02:20,880
a firm Trullo. So at one point they did a

997
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:24,440
firm married priest and then didn't. So they're just not

998
01:02:24,599 --> 01:02:27,400
aware of and they're usually very reticent to accept any

999
01:02:27,519 --> 01:02:32,360
kind of historical arguments like this because it's it's an

1000
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,320
und They see it as an unfalsifiable system. Uh So,

1001
01:02:36,639 --> 01:02:38,719
and you know, the reality is, and I was I

1002
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:40,639
was a track cat, I was in that world for

1003
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:44,360
almost a decade. The reality is that it's like all

1004
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,320
over the place. There's not really a Roman Catholicism. The

1005
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:51,320
only thing that quote unites them is this verbal acceptance

1006
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,719
of being Catholic. When you know, you can have one

1007
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:57,920
guy over here who thinks that the Crusades are true Catholicism,

1008
01:02:57,960 --> 01:02:59,800
and you got James Martin over here who thinks that,

1009
01:03:00,079 --> 01:03:02,599
you know, the essence of all Sism is Skittle's marriage.

1010
01:03:03,119 --> 01:03:05,039
So they're all over the place.

1011
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, it just seems like low hanging fruit.

1012
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:11,199
Speaker 10: You know, like in order for us to embrace the

1013
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:13,800
twenty first century and like move forward to more substance

1014
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:17,559
of discussions, can we just solve this marriage dilemma resulting

1015
01:03:17,639 --> 01:03:22,719
in so much carnage and and allow Christians to kind

1016
01:03:22,719 --> 01:03:23,760
of clean themselves off.

1017
01:03:23,719 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 6: And move on to higher end and topics.

1018
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,079
Speaker 10: Right, But you know, I just it just it reminds

1019
01:03:29,119 --> 01:03:31,760
me of when Kamala Harris was asked, you know, are

1020
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:33,800
there any mistakes you've made over the last four years,

1021
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:35,360
and she said I couldn't think of any. I just

1022
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,800
I just feel like it's so disingenuous, and when there's

1023
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:43,519
something so important and meaningful, Yeah, why not just take

1024
01:03:43,559 --> 01:03:46,480
that off the table from discussion?

1025
01:03:46,679 --> 01:03:49,119
Speaker 5: And also it's you know, it's a great point. Thank

1026
01:03:49,159 --> 01:03:52,800
you for your questions. And also I think they you know,

1027
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,320
it's not so much the Catholics sort of on the ground,

1028
01:03:55,480 --> 01:03:58,840
or the priest even it's it's the fact that the Vatican,

1029
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:03,039
in my view, is a captured institution for the global elite.

1030
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,360
So they're not going to make any moves back in

1031
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:10,679
the direction of wholesome integrity, family and all that because

1032
01:04:10,719 --> 01:04:15,559
they're captive to a greater geopolitical power which absolutely has

1033
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:28,400
no interest in the wholesome hades. What's up, yop, what's

1034
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:28,960
on your mind?

1035
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 9: Can you hear me?

1036
01:04:31,159 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 11: Yeah, just from the other guy who was talking about

1037
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:38,559
the nacissism for his friend, I did want to bring

1038
01:04:38,679 --> 01:04:42,199
up that and also a great argument against narcissism if

1039
01:04:42,239 --> 01:04:44,920
you want to hit it from like a more historical

1040
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:48,719
view that he was talking about the Gospel of Thomas

1041
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:51,719
and all the other gospels, but all of our New

1042
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:55,760
Testament gospels can be actually we're actually quoted by really

1043
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:59,599
early church fathers near around one hundred AD. All of

1044
01:05:00,079 --> 01:05:05,320
did Gnostic gospels were quoted. We didn't even exist until

1045
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,079
about three hundred and eighty or four hundred and eighty

1046
01:05:08,639 --> 01:05:09,880
after So.

1047
01:05:10,679 --> 01:05:13,159
Speaker 9: Even if you were to. He doesn't think you're pre

1048
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:14,760
he doesn't go for the precept.

1049
01:05:15,599 --> 01:05:18,159
Speaker 11: None of the Nastic Gospels are anywhere near the time

1050
01:05:18,519 --> 01:05:19,400
of the Church Fathers.

1051
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:21,159
Speaker 9: There are one hundreds of years after.

1052
01:05:21,519 --> 01:05:24,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, great, great point. Yeah, thank you. And also like

1053
01:05:24,559 --> 01:05:26,920
the stories that you read in there are kind of

1054
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,960
wacko and crazy, but I mean you have basically some

1055
01:05:30,119 --> 01:05:33,760
of those making their way into the Quran. So great point.

1056
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:39,960
Classic husband. What's up to the trad? Cats in the

1057
01:05:40,079 --> 01:05:52,440
chat call in? Hey, what's on your mind? Maw you there?

1058
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:54,239
Speaker 6: Can you hear me?

1059
01:05:54,800 --> 01:06:00,920
Speaker 5: Hey, Jamie, you're cutting out?

1060
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:01,039
Speaker 6: Bro?

1061
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 5: Maybe call back? Call back in? Pop out, pop back

1062
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,920
in because we can't hear you. Tribe called Jake, what's

1063
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:08,400
up dude?

1064
01:06:12,199 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 6: Yo?

1065
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:14,920
Speaker 1: Sorry, I thought you called somebody else.

1066
01:06:15,039 --> 01:06:16,639
Speaker 9: I didn't realize you were calling me. How you doing

1067
01:06:16,719 --> 01:06:19,719
Jake's nd Hey, I had a question.

1068
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:22,599
Speaker 20: I was debating a friend, one of my you know,

1069
01:06:22,719 --> 01:06:27,800
previous Protestant friends, and uh, from what I understand after

1070
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:31,079
listening to a lot of your content on Protestantism, there's

1071
01:06:31,119 --> 01:06:35,280
like a It's like you make the case that mainly

1072
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:40,599
it's issues with the position start from an epistemological perspective

1073
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:44,760
and and you kind of attack the Protestant position.

1074
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 5: Well sometimes, I mean sometimes I argue from history. Uh

1075
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:50,760
so it just kind of depends on what Protestant I'm

1076
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:51,159
talking to.

1077
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,840
Speaker 9: Sure, Yeah, that's actually a good point.

1078
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 5: Go ahead, are you there?

1079
01:07:02,119 --> 01:07:05,679
Speaker 6: Hello? Hello? Yeah, I can hear me.

1080
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, go ahead. So it looks people's connections are going out,

1081
01:07:14,599 --> 01:07:16,719
So maybe pop back out, pop back in. I'll come

1082
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:18,679
back to you the last two guys, ell, I asked

1083
01:07:18,719 --> 01:07:21,440
five dollars. Have you ever covered the incidents at Waco,

1084
01:07:21,559 --> 01:07:24,599
Reby Ridge and Oka se Uh? Yeah, but it's been

1085
01:07:24,639 --> 01:07:30,199
many years. As we talked about that, I remember the

1086
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:32,800
Terrence Yankee story is spooky and memory Hole. Do you

1087
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:34,760
mean spooky in the sense of like being a spook

1088
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:35,800
or just creepy?

1089
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 6: Uh? The uh?

1090
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 5: What's the ok See documentary? It's a really good documentary

1091
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:48,320
they put out maybe ten years ago. And I'm going

1092
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,079
blank on that, but that one was a good when

1093
01:07:50,079 --> 01:07:52,840
everybody watched that. But yeah, I mean I've been listening

1094
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,079
to Lord Voldemort since two thousand and three, so I

1095
01:07:55,239 --> 01:07:57,239
was there for all of that period when he covered

1096
01:07:57,239 --> 01:08:02,960
all that stuff extensively. Also, if you can find it,

1097
01:08:03,079 --> 01:08:06,360
one of the best things on OKAC is James Corbett's

1098
01:08:07,039 --> 01:08:11,440
deep dive into Tim McVay. That's a really important one.

1099
01:08:11,639 --> 01:08:14,239
I don't know all the details of Ruby Ridge. I

1100
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:17,840
know a decent amount about Waco. I remember one of

1101
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,000
the first documentaries I watched from Lord Baltimore was Wake

1102
01:08:21,119 --> 01:08:28,680
Up or Waco. Yeah, wake Up or Waco. I know

1103
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:30,479
a little bit about Ruby Ridge, but not a whole lot,

1104
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:33,520
but thank you for that. Yeah, just check out Corbett's

1105
01:08:35,159 --> 01:08:38,119
thing on McVeigh and how he was sheep dipped in

1106
01:08:38,279 --> 01:08:43,119
the what is the I don't can't remember that OKAC documentary,

1107
01:08:43,159 --> 01:08:46,039
but it's really good. Haiti's on Dad thirty dollars day.

1108
01:08:46,039 --> 01:08:48,560
I void you enjoyed your video with Dean about Book

1109
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:54,760
of Revelation, specifically the point of learning from those people

1110
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:57,319
who are non Orthodox. Well, we shouldn't be surprised. I

1111
01:08:57,359 --> 01:08:59,279
mean this is if you read the Church Fathers is

1112
01:08:59,319 --> 01:09:01,640
a pretty common and I mean, you know, Basil said

1113
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:04,880
you should get a classical education. Basil and the Cappadocians

1114
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:08,560
relied heavily on Origin, even though everybody knows Origin was heterodox.

1115
01:09:11,239 --> 01:09:16,560
Augustine relied heavily on the commentaries of Tico, the donatist

1116
01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:21,159
so this is very common and many people have, you know,

1117
01:09:21,279 --> 01:09:23,960
read Tourtullian. Tourtolian ended up heterodox. It doesn't mean that

1118
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:28,520
we can't, you know, read and gain insights from Tertullian,

1119
01:09:29,079 --> 01:09:32,720
and I mean same principle for Plato and Aristotle. I

1120
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:40,039
mean John Damascus, Saint Maximus, they read Porphyry, Plato, Aristotle,

1121
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:44,119
they read all these guys and gleaned great points. If

1122
01:09:44,119 --> 01:09:46,199
you read Fount of Knowledge by Saint John Damascus, it

1123
01:09:46,239 --> 01:09:50,199
relies heavily on Aristotle. So the idea that I never

1124
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:52,800
read anything but an orthonox person it is just kind

1125
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:56,479
of a weird. It's almost like a weird Protestant solo

1126
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:59,960
scriptura attitude, which is just not even accurate or history.

1127
01:10:01,279 --> 01:10:03,680
I say this because I was Orthodox, and I got

1128
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:07,399
an Orthodoxy from watching a lot of doctor Michael Heiser. Yeah,

1129
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:09,000
Michael Heiser. A lot of people don't know this. He

1130
01:10:09,119 --> 01:10:12,119
was a subscriber to my website for many years and

1131
01:10:13,239 --> 01:10:16,720
although we uh, we never chatted. I don't think we ever.

1132
01:10:17,039 --> 01:10:18,520
There might have been an email at one point, but

1133
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:21,319
we never chatted personally. I always intended to get him

1134
01:10:21,359 --> 01:10:24,800
on to do a podcast before he passed away, but Yeah,

1135
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,840
I read doctor Heiser over the years. I remember reading

1136
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:32,279
his Divine Council stuff, maybe even as early as like

1137
01:10:32,359 --> 01:10:36,560
two thousand and seven. So yeah, I think he was

1138
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:41,119
very insightful for his exegesis. I mean, I've got liturgical

1139
01:10:41,399 --> 01:10:45,079
I've got books back here by Anglican liturgical scholars and historians.

1140
01:10:45,119 --> 01:10:48,880
I've got books by UNI eight historians and scholars. I mean,

1141
01:10:49,399 --> 01:10:59,119
it's kind of obvious that there are truths, and people

1142
01:10:59,239 --> 01:11:02,119
have truths and wisdom and knowledge even outside of the

1143
01:11:02,239 --> 01:11:07,720
Orthodox Church bill Ward ten dollars. There are those who

1144
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:11,159
say that the idea of Mary's perpetual virginity comes from

1145
01:11:11,279 --> 01:11:15,239
apocryphal text. Well, it's true that the pro Evangelic of

1146
01:11:15,319 --> 01:11:17,520
James and these kind of things are not quote in

1147
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:21,159
the canon. But from the Orthodox vantage point, that's not

1148
01:11:21,279 --> 01:11:25,239
really a problem because for us, there are traditions, and

1149
01:11:25,279 --> 01:11:28,720
there are true traditions outside of the canonical texts. So

1150
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:32,000
there might, for example, be an oral tradition that's outside

1151
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:35,439
of the written biblical texts that was passed down and

1152
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:39,600
maybe somebody recorded it in the proto Evangelic of James

1153
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:41,520
or some other thing, or it got recorded in a

1154
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:45,359
liturgical setting or a poem or whatever. And so although

1155
01:11:45,399 --> 01:11:48,680
we wouldn't necessarily claim the entire document or the entire

1156
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:53,840
non canonical text as part of the tradition, those texts

1157
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:57,359
can have elements of tradition. For example, the Dedicate has

1158
01:11:57,720 --> 01:11:59,760
true elements of tradition, but we don't accept everything in

1159
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,760
the day. It's not part of the cantonscripture. But many

1160
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:07,199
church fathers thought that the de Decay was canonical. Many

1161
01:12:07,319 --> 01:12:10,000
church fathers thought First and Second Clement were part of

1162
01:12:10,039 --> 01:12:13,920
the New Testament. So even though some of the documents

1163
01:12:14,319 --> 01:12:16,439
that these tech are, these kinds of texts end up

1164
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:22,319
being pseudobigrathha or pseudonymous or outside the canon. The Book

1165
01:12:22,359 --> 01:12:24,359
of Enich is cited in the Book of Jude, and

1166
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:26,479
so we would say, yeah, the Book of Enich has

1167
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:30,920
true tradition. There's nothing anti orthodox about that. It's obviously

1168
01:12:31,079 --> 01:12:33,399
is true. But it doesn't mean that I have to

1169
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:36,600
put Enoch in the Cannonscripture on the same level as

1170
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:39,800
the Gospels or Paul. Right, So I think in the

1171
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:45,159
Orthodox Church we recognize levels of this stuff. That's why

1172
01:12:45,239 --> 01:12:47,920
in the liturgy the Gospels are given a place above

1173
01:12:48,039 --> 01:12:51,439
Paul and above the Old Testament. So there's levels to this,

1174
01:12:52,159 --> 01:12:54,039
and usually the people that say this kind of stuff,

1175
01:12:54,079 --> 01:12:56,960
it's just really based on kind of really low tier

1176
01:12:57,079 --> 01:13:03,119
Protestant objections. But great question, Bill, they say the concept

1177
01:13:03,199 --> 01:13:05,439
was created around the year three hundred. The problem with

1178
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:08,479
this argument from a Protestant is that this cuts both

1179
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:11,880
ways because if you're going to require a written proof

1180
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:15,680
of a document of a doctrine post eighty three hundred,

1181
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:17,520
which is what the argument assumes that In other words,

1182
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:21,239
a Protestant saying I'm not going to believe anything from

1183
01:13:21,359 --> 01:13:25,000
this patristic period unless there's quote written evidence after the

1184
01:13:25,079 --> 01:13:29,079
year three hundred or something like this, there's no where's

1185
01:13:29,119 --> 01:13:34,119
the Protestant canon prior to the year three hundred. It

1186
01:13:34,239 --> 01:13:36,520
doesn't exist. So you see how that cuts both ways,

1187
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:39,239
and that what that shows is that the Protestant doesn't

1188
01:13:39,279 --> 01:13:41,920
actually hold to that principle. It's a double standard that

1189
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:44,159
he's erected to where he's saying, well, i have my

1190
01:13:44,279 --> 01:13:49,279
Protestant canon, which doesn't have any real hardcore evidence for

1191
01:13:50,319 --> 01:13:52,560
existing prior to the year three hundred, but I'm going

1192
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:55,439
to require that you give me the written textual evidence

1193
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:58,239
for perpetual virginity to marry prior to three hundred, so

1194
01:13:58,399 --> 01:14:01,359
you see, it's an arbitrary doubles. Their own position doesn't

1195
01:14:01,359 --> 01:14:04,680
have that which is built on soul scripture. For the

1196
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,039
most part, storm the cat ten dollars. I started reading

1197
01:14:07,039 --> 01:14:09,760
the Book of Revelation Explained trilogy by James Jordan Dean Ardell.

1198
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:12,600
It's really good. Yeah, for those that are interested. We

1199
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:15,199
did do this interview the other day. My godfather has

1200
01:14:15,239 --> 01:14:20,479
spent the last four years kind of collating the lectures

1201
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:23,359
of James Jordan over the years on the Book of

1202
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:27,359
Revelation into this three volume series, Revelation Explained, which is

1203
01:14:27,399 --> 01:14:31,079
available at his website deanw Arnold dot com. And if

1204
01:14:31,119 --> 01:14:33,680
you go over to the interview that we did, the

1205
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:37,079
book links are in the show description. I've not had

1206
01:14:37,119 --> 01:14:38,920
a chance yet to get to it because I'm reading

1207
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:41,039
this espionage book that we're going to cover next. I'm

1208
01:14:41,039 --> 01:14:44,239
almost halfway through it, Black Gold Spies, which is really

1209
01:14:44,279 --> 01:14:47,520
really good and it actually relates to theology because a

1210
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:52,600
lot of these spies used religious cover. So but I

1211
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:57,000
do look forward to getting into Dean's Dean's presentation of

1212
01:14:57,119 --> 01:14:59,720
James Jordan, because Dean add it did a lot of

1213
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:05,399
edit fun seven seven seven j What are your thoughts

1214
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:08,399
on the Dark Soul series. It's very low heavy and esoteric.

1215
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:11,640
I tried playing it, and I'm sorry. I mean, so,

1216
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:13,319
there's a couple of things going on here when it

1217
01:15:13,399 --> 01:15:14,960
comes to I saw. I'm not a huge gamer, but

1218
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:18,760
I like to, you know, maybe on maybe one night

1219
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:21,760
a week, I unwind. And this is really only when

1220
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:24,199
it's winter and it's freezing and you can't do anything outside.

1221
01:15:24,279 --> 01:15:26,920
I might for a night or two a week unwind.

1222
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:30,560
With a video game, usually it's something that is not

1223
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:34,319
infinite plays, do you know what I mean? Like, I

1224
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:38,159
like a game I can beat in ten twenty thirty hours,

1225
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:40,479
which is the way they used to make video games,

1226
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:42,359
because I don't want to live my life in a

1227
01:15:42,359 --> 01:15:44,920
freaking video game. So, for example, I was interested in

1228
01:15:45,319 --> 01:15:47,920
the new Zelda, but then I noticed that, oh, this

1229
01:15:48,039 --> 01:15:51,079
actually has like hundreds of hours of playtime more than

1230
01:15:51,319 --> 01:15:54,239
the previous Zelda. Well, I'm not I don't My time

1231
01:15:54,359 --> 01:15:56,880
is valuable. I'm not gonna. I don't want to put

1232
01:15:57,079 --> 01:16:00,319
hundreds of hours into Tiers of the Kingdom or whatever.

1233
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:03,159
It's just too much, dude. Just give me a freaking

1234
01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:08,039
Drake's Quest Uncharted. You know, tomb Raider eat Resident Evil

1235
01:16:08,079 --> 01:16:09,960
that I can beat in eight hours. That's fun to me.

1236
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:14,359
And also, I mean Black Ops is fun, but I mean, honestly,

1237
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,640
like it's so addictive, like you just get addicted to

1238
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:23,359
sitting there and you know, trying to trying to get

1239
01:16:23,399 --> 01:16:26,000
headshots for like eight hours. It's like, I just can't

1240
01:16:26,079 --> 01:16:28,279
do that, like this, My time is too valuable to

1241
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:32,760
blow it on the even Black Ops. So when you

1242
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,920
say Dark Soul series, I remember trying out one of

1243
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:39,279
them and like, if it's gonna take me hours just

1244
01:16:39,359 --> 01:16:42,720
to figure out the freaking mechanisms and controls, I mean,

1245
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:45,479
it's just too much. Man, I can't. Like video games

1246
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:49,840
have gotten way too dorky and complex, and they used

1247
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:52,840
to be fun. I'd rather just play Mario Kart with Jamie.

1248
01:16:53,159 --> 01:16:58,479
That's way more fun than sapping five thousand hours into

1249
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:02,560
some you know, soy realm, I'm just joking. I mean,

1250
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:05,039
I've always liked role playing games. I've always played. I

1251
01:17:05,119 --> 01:17:07,880
played every Final Fantasy, so I get it to understand

1252
01:17:09,319 --> 01:17:12,279
Storm the Cat five dollars? Do you think the verses

1253
01:17:12,319 --> 01:17:16,640
were paular books? The judaizers are sufficient to refute modern dispensationalists.

1254
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:20,720
You know what, that's a great point, I mean ideal, like, yeah,

1255
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:24,640
basically you would think they would be. And you know,

1256
01:17:24,720 --> 01:17:27,920
even when I was a kind of a nube, you know,

1257
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:30,760
reading the Bible for the first time ages eighteen, nineteen twenty,

1258
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:34,119
I actually had a dispensation. I've got my Skollfield study

1259
01:17:34,159 --> 01:17:38,560
Bible over there still. I remember even being like struggling

1260
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:41,640
with some of those verses. I remember like, like, what

1261
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:46,439
what if dispensationalism is true? Why is Paul speaking this

1262
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:48,239
way in these in these texts? It's just it was.

1263
01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:51,399
It was a struggle. So I think that's a really

1264
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:53,560
key point, storing the cat. But you know what's funny

1265
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:57,199
about theology is that a lot of times the stuff

1266
01:17:57,239 --> 01:18:04,680
that you would think is clear and sufficient, a lot

1267
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:07,720
of times it isn't. Quantum comment are five dollars. What's

1268
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:11,880
the response to the Protestant that says, so scripture is wrong?

1269
01:18:13,399 --> 01:18:15,439
Are they even Protestant at that point? Well, that's a

1270
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:19,079
good point. I mean, if a Protestant is saying solo

1271
01:18:19,079 --> 01:18:22,880
scripture is wrong, then they're departing from the Classical Reformation tradition.

1272
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:27,279
So you know, you're not really Protestant. If you don't

1273
01:18:27,359 --> 01:18:31,159
believe in the solos, I would argue you're something else, right,

1274
01:18:31,279 --> 01:18:34,039
maybe you're moving in the direction of high Church Anglican

1275
01:18:34,199 --> 01:18:36,680
or something like that, which is what we've seen a

1276
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:39,000
lot of Protestants like, right, like James Jordan. Right, James

1277
01:18:39,079 --> 01:18:45,279
Jordan was at one point hardcore Calvinists, you know, reform dude.

1278
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:48,319
And then you know, over time he's moving and now

1279
01:18:48,359 --> 01:18:52,600
he's wearing he wears a collar, and he's dressing up

1280
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:55,119
like he's an Anglican. And you know, even though he's

1281
01:18:55,159 --> 01:18:57,520
not actually an Anglican, you would think he's an Anglican

1282
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:01,079
by the way he looks and dresses right, and he

1283
01:19:01,199 --> 01:19:09,560
wants liturgy, and he wants this and that. So I

1284
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:12,239
mean I would. I would. So if a Protestant said, well, look,

1285
01:19:12,279 --> 01:19:14,920
I don't believe in sold the scripture, so why should

1286
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:16,560
I believe your I would just say it, Well, then

1287
01:19:17,079 --> 01:19:20,399
give me a coherent account of where we get the

1288
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:22,239
cannon and how that comes about, right, I mean, in

1289
01:19:22,279 --> 01:19:24,720
other words, you can't. What you eventually learn is that

1290
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:28,600
you can't divorce the Bible from history. And if you

1291
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:32,000
can't divorce the Bible from history, then it's intimately necessarily

1292
01:19:32,119 --> 01:19:35,279
bound up with the community that put it together. And

1293
01:19:35,399 --> 01:19:38,920
so then the question is logically, well, what was that community,

1294
01:19:39,319 --> 01:19:42,199
what was the belief system of that community? Well, guess what,

1295
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:45,239
it's not Protestant. There are no Protestants in the first

1296
01:19:45,279 --> 01:19:48,920
thousand years. And that's the community essentially that puts together

1297
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:53,159
the Bible. So sounds like your buddy quantum commenter is

1298
01:19:53,199 --> 01:19:55,960
actually on the right track. California Prepper. Two dollars and

1299
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:57,920
twenty two cents. Here are some shekels for your time.

1300
01:19:58,640 --> 01:20:03,520
Thank you appreciate that. Clarity conversation. Five dollars. Do you

1301
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:06,159
know about this dude called truth unedited on YouTube?

1302
01:20:06,239 --> 01:20:06,560
Speaker 6: I do not.

1303
01:20:07,079 --> 01:20:09,119
Speaker 5: He has seven hundred and fifty thousand subs and he's

1304
01:20:09,159 --> 01:20:17,279
Hebrew roots. So well, here is my issue. Here's my

1305
01:20:17,439 --> 01:20:23,439
challenge to you, Truth Unedited. I will challenge you to debate.

1306
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:25,840
He put out a video against all the church fathers.

1307
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:27,960
You should call out this dude for a debate or

1308
01:20:28,359 --> 01:20:30,600
something like that. I used to listen to him before

1309
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:33,680
I became Orthodox many years Jay. Hey, thank you appreciate that. Yeah,

1310
01:20:34,199 --> 01:20:38,119
Truth Unedited, I challenge you to defend your stupid heresy.

1311
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:41,439
MKG ten dollars. Jay, I'm currently doing We're gonna go

1312
01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:44,600
back to Q and air in a second or a debate.

1313
01:20:45,640 --> 01:20:48,159
I'm currently doing cover to cover reading of the Bible.

1314
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:50,760
I read the story Jacob and he saw. What is

1315
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:57,079
your understanding of God rewarding Jacob and his mother get

1316
01:20:57,239 --> 01:21:02,479
Isaac blessing. I read a few interpretss. What do you

1317
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:09,840
think about this? Well, I do think Jacob represents Israel.

1318
01:21:10,159 --> 01:21:12,399
So he and he's you know, he gets the name

1319
01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:20,319
and he's gets the blessing because I think there's something that,

1320
01:21:21,039 --> 01:21:24,079
you know, prompted God to choose the Jews to be

1321
01:21:24,279 --> 01:21:29,960
the people from whom the Messianic line would come. So

1322
01:21:30,079 --> 01:21:32,760
the purpose of the nation of Israel is to produce

1323
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:36,079
the Messiah. That's their purpose. And yeah, there's ancillary purposes

1324
01:21:36,159 --> 01:21:38,800
in Deuteronomy that they would teach the nations and be

1325
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:41,279
a guide in the law and all that, but they didn't.

1326
01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:44,399
They really failed at that mission. But they did succeed

1327
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:47,479
in their ultimate mission, which was to produce the Messiah.

1328
01:21:48,199 --> 01:21:50,960
So they are an image. Jacob is a kind of

1329
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:55,760
an image of Israel and the people of the Old Covenant,

1330
01:21:56,920 --> 01:22:01,399
and both for the positives and for his law. So

1331
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:06,800
I think that's the that's my initial thoughts on Jacob.

1332
01:22:07,479 --> 01:22:09,319
Obviously you can go a lot deeper. There's a lot

1333
01:22:09,359 --> 01:22:11,920
of typology, there's a lot of symbolism in all of

1334
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:14,920
those Genesis stories. But off the top of my head,

1335
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:20,600
I would say that that's kind of the first point.

1336
01:22:21,199 --> 01:22:23,760
Anonymous ten dollars Jay, Sorry my phone cut out. I

1337
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:26,680
was questioning you to. My question was, how would you

1338
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:31,159
sum up the epistemic issues with the Protestant position. Well,

1339
01:22:31,279 --> 01:22:38,079
remember that the epistemic issues relate to ultimately what we

1340
01:22:38,159 --> 01:22:41,399
call normative authority. So we're not making the challenge that

1341
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:44,600
a Protestant can't know anything, or that a Protestant can't

1342
01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:47,880
tell you what's true. That's a bad argument a lot

1343
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:49,880
of times. Roman Catholics, for example, when they when they

1344
01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:52,560
debate with a Protestant, they'll say something like, well, you

1345
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:54,600
don't have the pope, so you don't know what doctrines

1346
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:56,880
are true. This is a really low tier dumb argument

1347
01:22:56,920 --> 01:22:58,840
because it just moves the problem back a step that

1348
01:22:58,960 --> 01:23:03,760
assumes that you're interpreting the documents of the papacy correctly. Right, So,

1349
01:23:03,800 --> 01:23:06,319
now there was a Roman Catholic will say something like, well,

1350
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:08,720
you know you're a Protestant reading the Bible, that's your

1351
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:11,760
private interpretation. How do you know that interpretation is correct?

1352
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:14,560
That's why we have the pope. Well, again, that's moving

1353
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:17,159
the problem back a step, because now every individual Catholic

1354
01:23:17,279 --> 01:23:19,680
just has more books and stacks of stuff to read,

1355
01:23:20,079 --> 01:23:22,159
much of which is way more boring than the Bible too,

1356
01:23:22,319 --> 01:23:24,960
I might add, to try to figure out what the

1357
01:23:25,159 --> 01:23:30,640
proper interpretation of the papal documents is. So nine percent

1358
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:35,359
of the Roman Catholic pop car salesman apologist ignore this

1359
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:38,039
and just move the problem back a step. And smarter

1360
01:23:38,239 --> 01:23:40,800
Protestants know this and figure it out. And they usually

1361
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:46,039
make this point right like a, I don't know who

1362
01:23:46,159 --> 01:23:48,319
is a smarter Protestant. I don't even I don't even

1363
01:23:48,359 --> 01:23:49,760
know if I can even say that there are smarter

1364
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:55,159
Protestants anymore. Maybe there's not. I'm being silly, but if

1365
01:23:55,239 --> 01:23:57,920
there were a smarter Protestant, they would say something like

1366
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:00,640
maybe James White even said this at one point, who

1367
01:24:00,760 --> 01:24:04,000
I don't have any respect for or care for at all,

1368
01:24:04,319 --> 01:24:06,319
but I think he did make this point one time, like, well,

1369
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:10,560
don't you have to interpret the Protestant documents? I mean

1370
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:12,760
the papal documents. So I just this is just a

1371
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:15,720
really bad objection if you know epistemology. So I think

1372
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:21,520
a better objection to the Protestant position is normative authority,

1373
01:24:22,279 --> 01:24:25,479
which is the point that, well, did Jesus actually leave

1374
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:30,199
any body of people that have authority to bind anyone's interpretation?

1375
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:34,079
And that's the better way to frame it against the

1376
01:24:34,079 --> 01:24:38,279
Protestant because every Protestant believes that they have right a

1377
01:24:38,359 --> 01:24:41,760
private judgment. Nobody can bind their conscience. That's a classical

1378
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:45,279
Reformation teaching, freedom of conscience, freedom of worship. You don't

1379
01:24:45,319 --> 01:24:49,319
nobody can tell me my reading of the Bible's wrong. Well,

1380
01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:55,720
but did Jesus provide a means to solve disputes when

1381
01:24:55,760 --> 01:25:00,560
their were disagreements? It's kind of like whether there's the institution,

1382
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:02,920
but you need a body of people to interpret it,

1383
01:25:03,399 --> 01:25:07,600
hence the Supreme Court. So is there a group of leaders,

1384
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:13,079
namely the episcopacy, that can interpret these documents with authority?

1385
01:25:13,159 --> 01:25:15,159
So it's not just can they they're the only people

1386
01:25:15,159 --> 01:25:17,319
who can interpret it. Everybody who reads the Bible will

1387
01:25:17,359 --> 01:25:19,520
have to interpret you. Now, you're just going to interpret it.

1388
01:25:20,279 --> 01:25:23,920
But when the church has disputes, and disagreements in history.

1389
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:27,800
When they met together in councils like Nicia, well, clearly

1390
01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:30,760
they thought they had the authority to bind people's interpretation,

1391
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:33,960
because if you don't believe in the Nicene interpretation, it's

1392
01:25:34,319 --> 01:25:39,000
you're excommunicated, you're an Arian, you're outside the church. But

1393
01:25:39,239 --> 01:25:42,159
in the realm of Protestantism, it's premised on in the

1394
01:25:42,199 --> 01:25:45,920
Classical Reformation doctrine, the right of private interpretation. Nobody has

1395
01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:51,800
the authority to bind anyone to that interpretation. So hence

1396
01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:54,560
the chaos. That's the better way I think to frame

1397
01:25:54,800 --> 01:25:58,560
the debate with a Protestant Classical Do you want to

1398
01:25:58,600 --> 01:26:06,079
try again? Hey, Jamie caund you maybe a Jamie Jamie.

1399
01:26:08,399 --> 01:26:11,159
She came in here and I'm mister what's up?

1400
01:26:11,239 --> 01:26:11,359
Speaker 6: Man?

1401
01:26:12,680 --> 01:26:13,279
Speaker 12: Hey, what's going on?

1402
01:26:13,439 --> 01:26:13,560
Speaker 3: Jack?

1403
01:26:13,600 --> 01:26:13,960
Speaker 6: Can you hear me?

1404
01:26:14,239 --> 01:26:14,439
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1405
01:26:16,279 --> 01:26:16,520
Speaker 21: Yeah.

1406
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:21,239
Speaker 22: So it seems that the Latins on Act have been

1407
01:26:21,479 --> 01:26:25,000
absolutely fuming over their little wax figure scandal.

1408
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:27,760
Speaker 5: I haven't even paid attention.

1409
01:26:29,239 --> 01:26:30,520
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I had one.

1410
01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:32,840
Speaker 22: Guy just randomly tell me that you're actually going to

1411
01:26:32,880 --> 01:26:34,520
convert back to Catholicism for.

1412
01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:38,800
Speaker 5: The third time. Oh yeah, sure, Well let's just add hominem.

1413
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:40,840
So no, I'll can guarantee I'll never be a Roman

1414
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:43,600
Catholic again. Why would I mean, why would he even

1415
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:48,760
say I'd be Roman Catholic again? If that's the thing

1416
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:52,319
that I'm making fun of, Like, I don't know what

1417
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:53,960
if I was ever converted, I don't know what I

1418
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:56,760
would ever convert to. But I mean, it wouldn't it

1419
01:26:56,800 --> 01:27:00,399
wouldn't be to this entity that's like openly bringing in

1420
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:04,680
people to destroy the country. And I'm talking about the

1421
01:27:05,479 --> 01:27:07,920
the Catholic NGOs that are open borders, right.

1422
01:27:10,359 --> 01:27:12,680
Speaker 12: Yeah, That's actually what I was gonna ask you about,

1423
01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:13,520
is that it.

1424
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:14,119
Speaker 9: Seems that.

1425
01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:19,399
Speaker 23: The calls for master legal immigration as well as all

1426
01:27:19,439 --> 01:27:23,520
the Catholic NGOs are pushing for this, but at the

1427
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:27,600
same time they're doing things like calling out the persecution

1428
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:30,399
of the Canonical Church in Ukraine.

1429
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:37,319
Speaker 5: Well, the there's nothing that requires evil people to be consistent.

1430
01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:41,279
So the fact that you know, Francis throws a bone

1431
01:27:41,399 --> 01:27:44,239
to trads here and there, which is just I mean,

1432
01:27:44,279 --> 01:27:45,680
the Vatican's always done this.

1433
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:46,800
Speaker 6: Now.

1434
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:48,840
Speaker 5: What he's talking about for those that are not on

1435
01:27:49,159 --> 01:27:53,239
X was some profile, this annoying profile that I ended

1436
01:27:53,319 --> 01:27:55,760
up trying to debate with, and he never made an argument.

1437
01:27:55,840 --> 01:28:00,520
He just like restated the Roman Catholic position. So people,

1438
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:02,720
you can look this up. This is not me, like,

1439
01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:05,359
I'm not maning. You're gonna see other Roman Catholics make

1440
01:28:05,439 --> 01:28:07,199
this point, right, So he tried to say, oh, look

1441
01:28:07,319 --> 01:28:10,760
look at the incorruptible Roman Catholic saints. So you have

1442
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:15,159
this gamer kid who was just canonized then supposedly Vincent

1443
01:28:15,199 --> 01:28:18,199
de Paul, John Bosco, and Padre Pio. Right, so oh,

1444
01:28:18,319 --> 01:28:22,439
look here the proof of Roman Catholicism as a miraculous institution,

1445
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:27,279
because look, these people haven't decayed, they haven't decomposed. Well

1446
01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:31,239
did you know that as this Roman Catholic underneath here

1447
01:28:31,319 --> 01:28:38,359
admits Vincent de Paul's face is encased in a wax mask.

1448
01:28:39,279 --> 01:28:42,920
Carlo Acutus is also covered in wax, as is Saint Bosco,

1449
01:28:44,279 --> 01:28:47,640
John Bosco, Padre Pio is covered in a silicone mask.

1450
01:28:48,359 --> 01:28:50,319
I believe these people are holy, but we have to

1451
01:28:50,439 --> 01:28:54,600
recognize that it is admitted that they're all preserved in

1452
01:28:54,760 --> 01:28:58,640
wax en casements and even silicone. So I'm sorry, but

1453
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:01,800
that's not an incorrupt and that's why I was making

1454
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:06,000
the jokes that, Oh, I guess that makes Taylor Swift

1455
01:29:06,119 --> 01:29:09,359
now you know, the next saint to be canonized, because

1456
01:29:09,399 --> 01:29:14,560
look there, she's incorruptible, right or people were putting pictures

1457
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:18,279
of linen up. Linen's encased in wax. I mean, it's

1458
01:29:18,359 --> 01:29:22,800
just like such a low tier bizarre thing. If Roman

1459
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:26,279
Catholics realize that it's admitted that they're encased in silicon

1460
01:29:26,359 --> 01:29:28,399
and wax, So why would I accept that as a

1461
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:35,880
miracle that this is. You know, it's not incorruptibility. This

1462
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:40,520
is ridiculous, are you there?

1463
01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:46,880
Speaker 22: Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's not even like necessarily what

1464
01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:49,640
you would call it requirement for someone to be a saint.

1465
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:52,760
But they're really levying on it that look how cool

1466
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:55,399
and important it is. And it's straight up looks like

1467
01:29:55,520 --> 01:29:56,960
it's from a wax museum.

1468
01:29:57,520 --> 01:30:00,279
Speaker 5: No, but you understand that the Romancalogic Church admits they

1469
01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:04,359
encase they're incorruptibles in wax and silicon. It's not a

1470
01:30:04,479 --> 01:30:07,680
conspiracy theory, it's not an atheist objection. They admit they

1471
01:30:07,720 --> 01:30:11,319
do this. Just look it up. The other Roman Catholics

1472
01:30:11,359 --> 01:30:14,199
are admitting they do this, and this guy is saying,

1473
01:30:14,640 --> 01:30:17,520
I almost left Catholicism when I found out that the

1474
01:30:18,359 --> 01:30:23,600
that these are wax encased people, they're not necessarily incorruptible.

1475
01:30:24,239 --> 01:30:27,039
And the guys, the guy who posted it, said, well,

1476
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:34,560
but they're incorruptible underneath the wax. That's how do we know.

1477
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:37,760
I mean, that's okay, sure, that's your assertion, But I mean,

1478
01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:42,159
aren't there ancient Egyptian they find like embalmed mummies that

1479
01:30:42,359 --> 01:30:47,199
looked very well preserved for centuries of you know, millennia

1480
01:30:47,399 --> 01:30:50,039
of being in a sarcophagus. I mean, does that mean

1481
01:30:50,119 --> 01:30:52,760
that so they're incorruptible mummy saying we've got to worship

1482
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:57,479
Pharaoh now, thank you. It's just a stupid argument.

1483
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:03,800
Speaker 22: The cavan that they find like frozen inside of rivers.

1484
01:31:04,479 --> 01:31:07,800
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, there you go. So Saint Saint Caveman, saint

1485
01:31:08,239 --> 01:31:13,279
in Sino Man. Right, we got a Brendon Fraser is

1486
01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:17,439
a saint now because he was in Sino Man. Saint

1487
01:31:17,479 --> 01:31:20,479
Brendan Fraser Caveman, pray for us. Yeah, great points. I

1488
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:25,359
actually forgot about all this Twitter nonsense, and I guess

1489
01:31:25,399 --> 01:31:30,000
it's because this guy's We got half a million views.

1490
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:30,039
Speaker 6: On this.

1491
01:31:32,359 --> 01:31:34,159
Speaker 5: Only I thought I had more comments, but it was

1492
01:31:34,199 --> 01:31:35,840
one hundred and sixty two, which is a pretty good

1493
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:42,520
amount of comments. But I mean, I look, it's kind

1494
01:31:42,560 --> 01:31:48,039
of like the apparition stuff, right, So does an apparition

1495
01:31:48,159 --> 01:31:51,199
prove wrong Catholicism? I mean, if it does, then does

1496
01:31:51,239 --> 01:31:56,079
it prove Coptic Christianity? And they never they never give

1497
01:31:56,079 --> 01:31:59,920
you an answer to that. They just say, well, Mary

1498
01:32:00,279 --> 01:32:04,640
is trying to make them Catholic? Where did when did

1499
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:07,560
Mary try to make them Catholic in the ITU and apparitions?

1500
01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:12,960
None of the Coptics became Catholic from that. But yeah,

1501
01:32:13,039 --> 01:32:17,640
great point. I forgot about all thet Madam Tussaud's a

1502
01:32:18,279 --> 01:32:23,279
Saint factory over there at Rome. Uh dude, I went

1503
01:32:23,399 --> 01:32:26,920
to Ripley's. Believe it or not. I didn't even realize

1504
01:32:26,960 --> 01:32:28,439
in I was in the presence of relics.

1505
01:32:29,199 --> 01:32:29,319
Speaker 6: Uh.

1506
01:32:29,439 --> 01:32:31,680
Speaker 5: Y'all ever been to the thing out in the desert?

1507
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:34,920
And if you're when you're driving to New Mexico and Arizona.

1508
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:37,640
When you're driving through New Mexico and Arizona, you start

1509
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:44,159
seeing all these billboards about the thang, right, and then

1510
01:32:44,199 --> 01:32:49,399
you pay a dollar to go see the thing while

1511
01:32:49,439 --> 01:32:51,199
you're driving out to California. Right, this, this is it

1512
01:32:51,359 --> 01:32:56,119
right here, see this, and then when you you see

1513
01:32:56,159 --> 01:33:00,640
that glass encasement right there next to that uh gorilla

1514
01:33:00,720 --> 01:33:02,680
head or whatever the hell that is, that's right here.

1515
01:33:04,159 --> 01:33:06,640
I'm gonna ruin it for all, y'all, because when you

1516
01:33:06,760 --> 01:33:09,199
pay a dollar to walk through the museum, do you

1517
01:33:09,279 --> 01:33:12,199
know what the thing is? It's just a mummified woman

1518
01:33:12,319 --> 01:33:16,000
and a I guess her baby, that's what the thing is. Well,

1519
01:33:16,199 --> 01:33:19,319
I didn't even realize the thing was a saint, saint thing.

1520
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:23,840
What's that saint thing? Pray for us, Saint Vladimir Lenin,

1521
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:26,319
Pray for us, because all you gotta do is be

1522
01:33:26,520 --> 01:33:28,880
encased in wax and you're in incorruptible, and that proves

1523
01:33:28,920 --> 01:33:34,960
your religion. And you see how stupid this is. Y'all

1524
01:33:35,039 --> 01:33:39,880
gonna ask for the intercession a saint thing. And the

1525
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:42,079
Roman Chalacs are just mad because they know that these

1526
01:33:42,079 --> 01:33:44,560
are really dumb arguments. And the only people who would

1527
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:47,000
fall for this are the most gullible goobers out there,

1528
01:33:47,119 --> 01:33:48,880
the people who have it's like the people who believe

1529
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:51,560
in the thing, right like, Oh, that's that's a real

1530
01:33:51,680 --> 01:33:53,760
alien over there. It's not an alien. It's just a

1531
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:58,279
mummified woman in her body and it's I guess again,

1532
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:02,119
so like and what determines incorruptible. If you could put

1533
01:34:02,159 --> 01:34:04,800
wax on it and it's incorruptible, then I mean, have

1534
01:34:04,960 --> 01:34:09,800
y'all not seen v I lenins in case in wax.

1535
01:34:12,720 --> 01:34:14,199
And then when I brought that up, they were like,

1536
01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:19,600
it doesn't count because he was evil. What do you

1537
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:26,039
mean it doesn't count? Like it's the exact same thing

1538
01:34:26,119 --> 01:34:28,800
that you're arguing. Right, So here's lenin. Look how preserved

1539
01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:33,760
he is and they admit he's covered in wax. Good grief, dude,

1540
01:34:35,000 --> 01:34:38,319
slow boy, Brandon five dollars Jay. When I'm debating atheists,

1541
01:34:39,039 --> 01:34:41,760
I can't get them to concede to God with tag. Well,

1542
01:34:42,159 --> 01:34:44,640
then move on. I don't know how to use tag

1543
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:47,600
to show that the Trinity is true. I just did

1544
01:34:47,640 --> 01:34:53,039
of it. Somebody just actually found where I talked about

1545
01:34:53,079 --> 01:34:55,159
it in an old video because everybody asks this, I'm

1546
01:34:55,159 --> 01:34:56,479
not mad at you. This like this comes up like

1547
01:34:56,600 --> 01:35:08,560
every day. So let me see. Uh, I think I

1548
01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:11,600
know which video was they put this? They timestamped where

1549
01:35:11,640 --> 01:35:17,920
I talked about this one Drake monotheis, where did I

1550
01:35:17,960 --> 01:35:21,560
talk about trinity? Let me find this guy's comment? Where's

1551
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:30,319
the what the heck? Okay, let's see how does the tag,

1552
01:35:30,479 --> 01:35:32,920
how does tag prove trinity? I'm going to pin this

1553
01:35:33,079 --> 01:35:37,600
comment since everyone asked where did you cover this? So

1554
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:40,319
top ten bad arguments for the transcend argument for God

1555
01:35:40,439 --> 01:35:44,880
is the video and the argument is at one nineteen.

1556
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:57,000
Speaker 24: Forty three right there on you dude, there you go,

1557
01:35:57,279 --> 01:36:03,680
I penned a dog Is this your first time on

1558
01:36:03,800 --> 01:36:09,039
the inner webs? I need a ginger Mercury.

1559
01:36:09,119 --> 01:36:13,760
Speaker 5: What's up, dude? Mercury? You over there in retrograde? Right now?

1560
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:14,880
You're retro grade?

1561
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:20,520
Speaker 6: Sorry? Can you hear me? Hey man?

1562
01:36:20,720 --> 01:36:22,520
Speaker 14: My friends start introduced me to some.

1563
01:36:22,560 --> 01:36:27,359
Speaker 25: Of your videos, and I'm intrigued. One of the areas

1564
01:36:27,359 --> 01:36:30,920
of literature, I very broad knowledge of literature, it seems like,

1565
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:35,880
you know, is the enlightenments through Anglophone analytic philosophy to

1566
01:36:35,960 --> 01:36:40,640
American pragmatism. You say two dogmas in particular.

1567
01:36:40,840 --> 01:36:42,560
Speaker 9: So I guess what I just wanted to do here.

1568
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:49,239
Speaker 25: Is making American pragmatists a case for solo scripture. I

1569
01:36:49,359 --> 01:36:52,520
just see where you pull holes in it, right, because

1570
01:36:52,520 --> 01:36:54,920
I think there's a shared Germany to go background there.

1571
01:36:56,359 --> 01:36:59,399
Speaker 5: How would American pragmatism have anything to do with solo scriptura?

1572
01:37:00,159 --> 01:37:07,279
Speaker 25: So there's a turn Western secular philosophy from epistemology to linguistics.

1573
01:37:08,399 --> 01:37:11,560
I think there's a linguistic turn in Western philosophy, which

1574
01:37:11,680 --> 01:37:16,680
line really seems to epitomize, right, I think we can

1575
01:37:16,720 --> 01:37:18,239
just stop and see if you agreed every.

1576
01:37:18,840 --> 01:37:19,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, the.

1577
01:37:21,159 --> 01:37:25,319
Speaker 5: Two dogmas eventually becomes a debate about the circularity of

1578
01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:30,199
lexicographers and dictionaries and definitions and self evidence, and so

1579
01:37:30,319 --> 01:37:33,239
he argues it's a big circle, and yeah, that's linguistic philosophy.

1580
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:35,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, clearly influenced by vicken Stein.

1581
01:37:35,720 --> 01:37:37,960
Speaker 6: I think he's like a ghost in the.

1582
01:37:37,960 --> 01:37:41,239
Speaker 25: Background and ultimately culminating in Richard Gordy's critique of all

1583
01:37:41,279 --> 01:37:45,680
of Western philosophy as an attempt to hypostatize reason as

1584
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:48,640
a mirror of nature, as he titles his magnimout this

1585
01:37:48,760 --> 01:37:49,600
in my opinion.

1586
01:37:49,399 --> 01:37:52,399
Speaker 5: Okay, but just let me stop you right there, because

1587
01:37:53,279 --> 01:37:55,520
I would just simply say that solar scripture has nothing

1588
01:37:55,560 --> 01:37:58,000
to do with any of that. It's a historical question

1589
01:37:58,239 --> 01:38:00,960
of the formation. Well, it's too things. It's a historical

1590
01:38:01,039 --> 01:38:03,720
issue hold on of the formation of the canon. And

1591
01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:06,600
then secondly, it's an issue of whether or not the

1592
01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:09,960
principle of sociator itself is true. So those are the

1593
01:38:09,960 --> 01:38:11,159
two things. So what does that have to do with

1594
01:38:11,680 --> 01:38:13,880
modern pragmatic linguistic turns.

1595
01:38:14,199 --> 01:38:16,520
Speaker 25: If you believe in solely the word John one one,

1596
01:38:18,399 --> 01:38:20,600
then a turn from epistemology to linguistics.

1597
01:38:22,359 --> 01:38:23,960
Speaker 5: What do you think the word is? And what is

1598
01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:25,600
the word there that?

1599
01:38:26,039 --> 01:38:27,159
Speaker 9: What is language itself?

1600
01:38:27,279 --> 01:38:30,039
Speaker 5: No, that's not the word in John one is the

1601
01:38:30,159 --> 01:38:31,960
second person of the Godhead. It's not language.

1602
01:38:33,279 --> 01:38:35,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the word is literally the word.

1603
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:38,560
Speaker 5: No, it's the second person of the Godhead, who's identified

1604
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:42,479
in John one as Jesus, the second hypostasis. It's not language. No,

1605
01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:45,359
you're wrong, So you have an assumption about what John

1606
01:38:45,399 --> 01:38:48,239
one is about. It's not language. It's the person of

1607
01:38:48,319 --> 01:38:48,720
the word.

1608
01:38:49,279 --> 01:38:50,600
Speaker 9: I don't have an assumption on a reason.

1609
01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:53,279
Speaker 5: You just literally told me that it's language, and you

1610
01:38:53,359 --> 01:38:55,600
said you don't have an assumption. It is not language.

1611
01:38:55,640 --> 01:38:57,960
It is the second person of the Godhead. He is

1612
01:38:58,079 --> 01:38:58,760
not language.

1613
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:03,119
Speaker 9: I mean, using on the scripture right now, the word what.

1614
01:39:03,319 --> 01:39:07,359
Speaker 5: Does John want identify as the logos? Well, who does

1615
01:39:07,399 --> 01:39:08,560
it identify as the logos?

1616
01:39:10,079 --> 01:39:11,399
Speaker 9: The word was God?

1617
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:13,039
Speaker 6: The word was with God in the word was God.

1618
01:39:13,079 --> 01:39:17,079
Speaker 5: Who is it Is it a he or an is? Language?

1619
01:39:17,199 --> 01:39:17,520
Is an it?

1620
01:39:18,439 --> 01:39:19,079
Speaker 6: God is a he?

1621
01:39:20,439 --> 01:39:22,199
Speaker 1: As far as I'm concerned, I.

1622
01:39:22,159 --> 01:39:24,960
Speaker 5: Don't care what you're concerning. Which one is it? Is

1623
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:26,520
it the second person of the Godheadho is a he?

1624
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:29,880
Or isn't an it? All right? Goodbye?

1625
01:39:33,239 --> 01:39:33,439
Speaker 14: Huh.

1626
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:35,600
Speaker 5: Listen to my listen to my wife.

1627
01:39:35,720 --> 01:39:35,920
Speaker 6: Huh.

1628
01:39:36,199 --> 01:39:37,399
Speaker 9: You're not letting me finish.

1629
01:39:37,399 --> 01:39:41,520
Speaker 5: Because you're saying dumb stuff. Obviously, it's not language that's

1630
01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:51,840
an it. It's a he, a named entity. Goodbye. That's

1631
01:39:51,920 --> 01:39:56,680
why there's no linguistic, pragmatic Americanist argument for soul scripture,

1632
01:39:57,479 --> 01:40:01,640
because you literally thought that the logos of John one

1633
01:40:01,920 --> 01:40:07,239
is language and not a divine hypostasis Isaiah.

1634
01:40:11,439 --> 01:40:11,640
Speaker 4: Huh.

1635
01:40:12,760 --> 01:40:20,079
Speaker 5: That soiler as far as I'm concerned, Well, let me talk.

1636
01:40:22,760 --> 01:40:24,560
What's up? How you doing?

1637
01:40:25,279 --> 01:40:25,319
Speaker 6: So?

1638
01:40:25,399 --> 01:40:27,359
Speaker 26: I got a question about about tag.

1639
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:30,720
Speaker 5: You know, maybe we can have a discussion on it.

1640
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:34,520
So okay, can you?

1641
01:40:34,800 --> 01:40:34,840
Speaker 6: So?

1642
01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:37,159
Speaker 26: I know, I I agree that the argument is an

1643
01:40:37,279 --> 01:40:41,560
argument between paradigms, and but I'm trying to learn more

1644
01:40:41,760 --> 01:40:46,000
about how can we support the paradigm of of God?

1645
01:40:46,279 --> 01:40:46,399
Speaker 6: Right?

1646
01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:47,960
Speaker 26: So, like I get the question a lot when I

1647
01:40:48,039 --> 01:40:50,359
try to argue TAG as to like what is the

1648
01:40:50,479 --> 01:40:53,800
mechanism in which God gives us knowledge, and I don't

1649
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:55,079
really know where to go from there.

1650
01:40:57,000 --> 01:41:02,600
Speaker 5: So the Christian worldview presents a specific paradigm of epistemology, metaphysics,

1651
01:41:02,680 --> 01:41:05,000
and ethics, and so all three of those things are

1652
01:41:05,079 --> 01:41:08,560
what you're arguing for, I think when you're arguing TAG.

1653
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:13,199
So TAG is a supra argument that sort of encompasses

1654
01:41:13,279 --> 01:41:17,239
like an umbrella, those three domains of a worldview. So,

1655
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:21,640
for example, Christianity has a specific metaphysic about the natural world,

1656
01:41:22,079 --> 01:41:25,399
about the regularity of nature, providence, etc. Those things are

1657
01:41:25,399 --> 01:41:28,439
the basis, for example, of induction, and so induction is

1658
01:41:28,520 --> 01:41:33,159
possible because of the Christian metaphysic of divine providence, etc.

1659
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:38,319
So that's one example to where induction or identity over

1660
01:41:38,399 --> 01:41:41,279
time is not a problem in a Christian paradigm because

1661
01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:45,600
the entire Christian ethos and metaphysic has God creating the

1662
01:41:45,640 --> 01:41:49,720
world with things having natures, things having secondary causal powers,

1663
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:55,039
et cetera. So if you're having that metaphysic, then that

1664
01:41:55,279 --> 01:41:59,359
explains and grounds how it's possible to have those things.

1665
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:04,680
Doesn't exhaustively explain every element of a worldview or every question.

1666
01:42:05,319 --> 01:42:08,319
It makes possible those things. So that's I think a

1667
01:42:08,359 --> 01:42:11,960
lot of people mistake the transitional argument for an exhaustive

1668
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:16,039
explanation for everything, or an exhaustive explanation for every aspect

1669
01:42:16,079 --> 01:42:19,479
of a worldview. No, no, it's an explanation for how

1670
01:42:19,920 --> 01:42:23,079
it's possible to have those things, which is a meta

1671
01:42:23,239 --> 01:42:27,239
level argument. So the atheist paradigm, for an example here,

1672
01:42:27,319 --> 01:42:31,159
contrasted to that paradigm, how does it even make possible

1673
01:42:31,399 --> 01:42:35,399
knowledge or metaphysical claims at all? So the argument is

1674
01:42:35,520 --> 01:42:38,800
not about the claims themselves in terms of whether there's

1675
01:42:38,840 --> 01:42:41,000
telos or whether there's this or that. It's a question

1676
01:42:41,119 --> 01:42:46,000
of whether the worldview makes it possible to have metaphysics

1677
01:42:46,039 --> 01:42:46,880
and knowledge and ethics.

1678
01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:49,920
Speaker 26: I mean, I don't even see a way that they

1679
01:42:50,000 --> 01:42:52,479
can they can get out of their own senses. And

1680
01:42:52,680 --> 01:42:55,079
it seems like on the same hand, they're trying to

1681
01:42:55,159 --> 01:42:59,920
say that everything they get or practically everything they get,

1682
01:43:00,159 --> 01:43:01,439
is via their senses.

1683
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:05,119
Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, and even the senses doesn't even make sense

1684
01:43:05,199 --> 01:43:09,760
that that assumes that there's reliable, meaningful information and data

1685
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:13,560
coming in from the external world that's distinct from you know,

1686
01:43:14,119 --> 01:43:18,119
merely sensual reactions of you know, hot cold. This kind

1687
01:43:18,119 --> 01:43:20,479
of stuff, like even hot and cold assumes that there's

1688
01:43:20,520 --> 01:43:23,640
some kind of like meaningful data interaction with an external world,

1689
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:26,880
none of which has actually proven. They just assume it, right,

1690
01:43:27,039 --> 01:43:28,600
And and that's what I was gonna say.

1691
01:43:28,640 --> 01:43:31,680
Speaker 26: On the same handy, they also say that your senses.

1692
01:43:31,359 --> 01:43:34,319
Speaker 5: Are also not reliable, exactly when I asked them to.

1693
01:43:34,600 --> 01:43:37,920
Speaker 21: Like so it's just I don't know how they do it,

1694
01:43:38,079 --> 01:43:39,039
but like, so.

1695
01:43:39,319 --> 01:43:42,600
Speaker 5: Let me, let me let me well, and not even

1696
01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:45,760
just not reliable, but like, what's the difference between you know,

1697
01:43:46,119 --> 01:43:50,680
like when my when my hand reacts to a hot

1698
01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:53,439
stove and I and I jerk my hand back because

1699
01:43:53,439 --> 01:43:57,800
of the heat, Like what why is that a an

1700
01:43:57,880 --> 01:44:04,159
instinctual sort of non important, not meaningful action versus the

1701
01:44:04,439 --> 01:44:07,560
information that comes in when I look at and touch

1702
01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:10,800
the book, right, So it's like this is a meaningful,

1703
01:44:10,960 --> 01:44:15,840
information rich activity looking at the book and touching it, smelling,

1704
01:44:16,600 --> 01:44:18,840
licking the book right, tasting to see what it did

1705
01:44:19,199 --> 01:44:23,760
that versus like the instinctual things of yawning or whatever,

1706
01:44:24,039 --> 01:44:27,680
like things that are not supposedly meaningful or information coming

1707
01:44:27,720 --> 01:44:30,479
in from the external world that doesn't really Like there's

1708
01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:33,800
there's an assumption that oh, that's a class of things

1709
01:44:33,880 --> 01:44:36,840
that matter versus all these other things they don't matter. Well,

1710
01:44:36,880 --> 01:44:40,159
if I'm just a meat bag and this is just

1711
01:44:40,319 --> 01:44:46,520
like random stuff occurring, there's no classification of meaningful actions

1712
01:44:46,640 --> 01:44:53,920
versus non meaningful or instinctual actions versus rational, high tier sophisticated.

1713
01:44:53,960 --> 01:44:57,199
They're all just it's all just the same bunch of

1714
01:44:57,359 --> 01:44:59,000
things happening which have no meaning.

1715
01:45:00,319 --> 01:45:01,600
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, well, I don't even know.

1716
01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:02,439
Speaker 6: I don't even know.

1717
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:04,880
Speaker 9: Like usually what they mean by meaning in.

1718
01:45:04,920 --> 01:45:07,800
Speaker 26: The first place is just what they're privy to, like

1719
01:45:07,960 --> 01:45:10,600
what they like, you know, so I don't even think,

1720
01:45:10,960 --> 01:45:12,399
you know, I don't even think that they can get

1721
01:45:12,439 --> 01:45:13,800
out of that. But let me let me ask you this,

1722
01:45:13,960 --> 01:45:15,880
and uh, you know, I won't take up too much

1723
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:16,359
of your time.

1724
01:45:16,720 --> 01:45:18,680
Speaker 12: I mean, I could talk of all day about it.

1725
01:45:18,760 --> 01:45:22,840
Speaker 26: But so I'm having trouble.

1726
01:45:23,640 --> 01:45:24,760
Speaker 5: Let me let me put it this way.

1727
01:45:25,760 --> 01:45:28,880
Speaker 26: How can I know? Right, Let's say that you're you're

1728
01:45:28,880 --> 01:45:31,640
saying that God is giving me information somewhere, right, Like

1729
01:45:31,720 --> 01:45:34,359
I get divine providence that that you set up the

1730
01:45:34,640 --> 01:45:36,920
world in such a way where it acts regular because

1731
01:45:36,960 --> 01:45:40,119
he created it right, and he's instantiating that at all times.

1732
01:45:40,159 --> 01:45:42,479
Speaker 17: Therefore we can know that.

1733
01:45:42,680 --> 01:45:45,079
Speaker 26: Our past future, well, we don't even need the past

1734
01:45:45,079 --> 01:45:47,279
futures because we have information about future futures.

1735
01:45:47,479 --> 01:45:50,760
Speaker 5: Right, I get that, But I don't.

1736
01:45:51,039 --> 01:45:53,319
Speaker 26: I'm having trouble on the epistemology side.

1737
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:53,640
Speaker 6: Right.

1738
01:45:53,720 --> 01:45:56,079
Speaker 26: I think I understand the metaphysic of it, and I

1739
01:45:56,159 --> 01:45:59,239
definitely understand the ethics of it, but I'm having trouble

1740
01:45:59,359 --> 01:46:00,960
on the stomology of it.

1741
01:46:03,760 --> 01:46:08,920
Speaker 5: Okay, what specifically, I don't know how.

1742
01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:15,000
Speaker 26: I can know that divine divine providence is what is

1743
01:46:15,119 --> 01:46:16,159
keeping it right.

1744
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:22,399
Speaker 5: Well, the argument is that ultimately it's a theonomous of pistemology,

1745
01:46:22,520 --> 01:46:26,039
meaning that it's grounded in the divine revelation that God

1746
01:46:26,520 --> 01:46:30,039
maintains the universe through his energy of divine providence. So

1747
01:46:30,199 --> 01:46:34,000
the way that we know it is because of divine revelation. Ultimately,

1748
01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:36,960
we're not knowing it in the sense of like, oh,

1749
01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:40,199
we did an exhaustive, you know, computer data analysis of

1750
01:46:40,239 --> 01:46:42,079
the natural world that tells us that there must be

1751
01:46:42,119 --> 01:46:45,680
a being that's providential. No, it's it's literally from divine revelation,

1752
01:46:46,279 --> 01:46:48,520
and so, well, how do you know that revelation's true? Well,

1753
01:46:48,640 --> 01:46:52,239
the way I would know first and foremost is because

1754
01:46:52,319 --> 01:46:56,520
of the reliability of that worldview. In other words, the

1755
01:46:56,600 --> 01:47:01,840
worldview itself is what makes possible having knowledge or metaphysics

1756
01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:05,479
at all. So, in other words, the epistemology is grounded

1757
01:47:05,560 --> 01:47:10,479
in the revealed doctrines, the revelation of God's self, disclosure

1758
01:47:10,520 --> 01:47:15,119
of who he is, Trinity, et cetera, his third eye God,

1759
01:47:15,239 --> 01:47:16,359
perspective of history.

1760
01:47:17,000 --> 01:47:24,760
Speaker 26: So is something is it something like, through through the

1761
01:47:24,840 --> 01:47:28,319
world we can observe divine providence, right, and you would

1762
01:47:28,359 --> 01:47:30,239
call that observation revelation.

1763
01:47:31,359 --> 01:47:34,359
Speaker 5: No, I'm saying that the way that I know that

1764
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:39,520
providence is the answer to the question of induction and

1765
01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:42,680
the regulatory of nature is because of divine revelation. Divine

1766
01:47:42,720 --> 01:47:45,439
revelation tells me that God created the world in a

1767
01:47:45,560 --> 01:47:48,159
regular way that in Genesis won the seasons will continue

1768
01:47:48,199 --> 01:47:50,760
until the end of the world. The seasons act as

1769
01:47:50,800 --> 01:47:54,840
a kind of a you know, world clock, until there's

1770
01:47:54,960 --> 01:47:57,079
an end of the universe, whenever God determines that to be.

1771
01:47:57,279 --> 01:48:01,039
So that regularity is not something that I just want

1772
01:48:01,039 --> 01:48:02,640
to you know, Like, so I go out and I

1773
01:48:02,720 --> 01:48:04,840
look at the seasons, and yeah, I see a kind

1774
01:48:04,840 --> 01:48:08,359
of a regularity. But the basis for why I think

1775
01:48:08,479 --> 01:48:11,199
it's divine regularity would be divine revelation.

1776
01:48:12,239 --> 01:48:13,159
Speaker 6: Okay, I get that.

1777
01:48:13,239 --> 01:48:15,239
Speaker 26: Maybe I could have been more clear when I said observation,

1778
01:48:15,359 --> 01:48:20,479
because like I think, I consider reading reading scripture and observation.

1779
01:48:21,159 --> 01:48:22,840
Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, so that this is this is

1780
01:48:23,159 --> 01:48:28,119
so the faculty of reading, or your senses and sense

1781
01:48:28,239 --> 01:48:32,760
data is not the equivalent of revelation because your faculties

1782
01:48:32,800 --> 01:48:37,079
are created faculties. Divine revelation is God's own self disclosure

1783
01:48:37,520 --> 01:48:40,479
of himself, which is of his own divine thoughts or

1784
01:48:40,560 --> 01:48:44,920
low gi or divine ideas. That's uncreated divine revelation. And

1785
01:48:45,159 --> 01:48:50,520
so your created faculties and senses are perceiving the uncreated,

1786
01:48:50,680 --> 01:48:54,920
sometimes to the created and ultimately antheosis we hope eventually directly.

1787
01:48:56,119 --> 01:48:58,600
Speaker 9: Okay, I got, I gotta, I got some of that.

1788
01:48:59,880 --> 01:49:02,640
Speaker 5: I think it would for me to absorb all of it.

1789
01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:04,000
Do you do you have any good Let me give

1790
01:49:04,000 --> 01:49:06,600
an example. So, like when you're observing the natural world,

1791
01:49:07,119 --> 01:49:11,600
that's not divine revelation. Correct, Yeah, that's you observing the

1792
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:15,640
natural world, and you can do what Saint Maximus calls

1793
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:20,479
a kind of natural contemplation to see the divine behind

1794
01:49:20,560 --> 01:49:24,000
that or through that, and in a sense it could

1795
01:49:24,199 --> 01:49:27,239
potentially become divine revelation because he says something like when

1796
01:49:27,279 --> 01:49:31,560
we see God, we eventually see all things in God. Right,

1797
01:49:31,720 --> 01:49:37,000
so it's it's potentially revelation, but just perceiving the natural

1798
01:49:37,000 --> 01:49:42,319
world itself is not necessarily relationship. Yeah, yeah, right, right,

1799
01:49:42,399 --> 01:49:42,840
I get that.

1800
01:49:43,000 --> 01:49:46,239
Speaker 26: I think that I need to study moral on on exactly.

1801
01:49:46,479 --> 01:49:47,800
I mean, don't get me wrong, I think that you

1802
01:49:47,840 --> 01:49:50,439
did good there. It just seems like divine revelation is

1803
01:49:50,479 --> 01:49:51,079
a huge topic.

1804
01:49:51,199 --> 01:49:53,640
Speaker 5: Well, I'll tell you what to read on this, uh,

1805
01:49:54,000 --> 01:49:58,880
the this Saint Justin Popovich's chapter on Saint Isaac the

1806
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:02,000
Syrian called the Mystery of Knowledge, and there he will

1807
01:50:02,079 --> 01:50:05,840
distinguish revelation, knowledge, et cetera. It's a very good chapter.

1808
01:50:05,920 --> 01:50:08,119
Speaker 9: Okay, all right, I appreciate it.

1809
01:50:08,239 --> 01:50:10,520
Speaker 5: Thanks. Yeah, it's in the book Life in Christ by

1810
01:50:10,600 --> 01:50:17,199
Saint Justin Papovich and FDA. If you wanted to comment

1811
01:50:17,319 --> 01:50:25,560
on any of that about revelation, feel free. Welcome everybody.

1812
01:50:25,560 --> 01:50:28,520
We're having open debate. We've had some great discussions so far.

1813
01:50:29,039 --> 01:50:31,279
We had one kind of wacko fed dude who was

1814
01:50:31,359 --> 01:50:34,399
going crazy, but pretty much on the whole we've had

1815
01:50:34,439 --> 01:50:38,159
a really cool, calm, civil discussion. We had that one

1816
01:50:38,359 --> 01:50:44,239
kind of goofy Protestant guy. So we're batting about eight

1817
01:50:44,359 --> 01:50:52,479
for ten today, eight for ten for quality versus crazy Palestine. Palestine.

1818
01:50:57,920 --> 01:50:59,399
By the way, if you want to follow me on

1819
01:50:59,560 --> 01:51:02,920
Exeican only, right over here and help me out. I'm

1820
01:51:02,960 --> 01:51:07,880
almost two. What's up, hi, Jake, Thanks for the mic.

1821
01:51:07,960 --> 01:51:11,119
Speaker 6: Man, my first time here.

1822
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:17,560
Speaker 21: I'm a Muslim, I thought, Yeah, so I I am

1823
01:51:17,760 --> 01:51:22,199
not that much knowledgeable on uh like the different Christians

1824
01:51:22,199 --> 01:51:26,640
six I know, like alltho those Catholic and I have

1825
01:51:26,800 --> 01:51:28,720
a few questions for you, but I just wanted to

1826
01:51:29,239 --> 01:51:32,520
We're Orthodox here, so go ahead, Okay. So I just

1827
01:51:32,640 --> 01:51:37,520
wanted to ask if your questions before that, like, have

1828
01:51:37,880 --> 01:51:43,000
you studied the religion of Islam like at all or

1829
01:51:43,279 --> 01:51:43,800
or Quran?

1830
01:51:44,039 --> 01:51:44,239
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1831
01:51:44,640 --> 01:51:46,600
Speaker 5: I mean I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I've

1832
01:51:46,640 --> 01:51:49,680
debated all of your top guys for the last five years.

1833
01:51:50,960 --> 01:51:51,520
Speaker 9: Okay, cool.

1834
01:51:52,000 --> 01:51:56,920
Speaker 21: So the on the one, I think the main point

1835
01:51:57,039 --> 01:52:04,960
that most Muslims say is like, as you said just now,

1836
01:52:05,159 --> 01:52:07,159
that the Bible.

1837
01:52:09,119 --> 01:52:12,279
Speaker 9: Was written like and depending on the.

1838
01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:16,960
Speaker 5: People that were there who wrote the Bible.

1839
01:52:17,000 --> 01:52:18,960
Speaker 9: Because the Bible has been changed.

1840
01:52:19,880 --> 01:52:22,560
Speaker 5: Well, no, that's your assertion. But hold on, hold on,

1841
01:52:22,760 --> 01:52:25,000
that's your assertion that the Bible was changed. And what

1842
01:52:25,199 --> 01:52:27,399
is your actual evidence or proof of that, because the

1843
01:52:27,760 --> 01:52:29,600
Quran does not say the Bible was changed.

1844
01:52:32,680 --> 01:52:32,720
Speaker 6: No.

1845
01:52:32,840 --> 01:52:37,439
Speaker 21: No, But but you just said that, you know, the

1846
01:52:37,800 --> 01:52:42,680
writings in the Bible depended on the people that No.

1847
01:52:42,840 --> 01:52:45,000
Speaker 5: I said that the collection of the books, which we

1848
01:52:45,119 --> 01:52:47,239
call the canon. In other words, the canon means the

1849
01:52:47,319 --> 01:52:49,960
books that were decided upon to go into the Bible,

1850
01:52:50,039 --> 01:52:52,479
which is this big collection here of a bunch of

1851
01:52:52,560 --> 01:52:53,960
the Bible is a bunch of little books.

1852
01:52:54,079 --> 01:52:54,199
Speaker 6: Right.

1853
01:52:54,680 --> 01:52:57,079
Speaker 5: So what I'm saying is that the community of people,

1854
01:52:57,319 --> 01:53:00,359
namely the church of the first seven eight hundred years,

1855
01:53:00,680 --> 01:53:04,000
is who determined what books go into this big book.

1856
01:53:04,039 --> 01:53:07,640
That's what I was saying. I didn't say they changed it, right, right.

1857
01:53:07,640 --> 01:53:12,199
Speaker 21: So the original version is still there, like it's still exists.

1858
01:53:12,439 --> 01:53:15,359
Speaker 5: Yeah. If you look up the comparison of the manuscripts

1859
01:53:15,399 --> 01:53:18,439
of the earliest versions of the New Testament, there's about

1860
01:53:18,439 --> 01:53:21,880
a ninety five to ninety seven percent unanimity and accuracy

1861
01:53:21,960 --> 01:53:25,760
amongst the various manuscript traditions. That's the highest amongst any

1862
01:53:25,920 --> 01:53:26,840
of the ancient texts.

1863
01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:29,079
Speaker 6: Right.

1864
01:53:29,279 --> 01:53:35,760
Speaker 21: But then Quran does say that, and you you probably

1865
01:53:36,079 --> 01:53:38,800
know already that we have very high like we think

1866
01:53:39,600 --> 01:53:44,800
Christians are the closest to us, like because it also

1867
01:53:44,920 --> 01:53:47,600
mentions because they have love in their heart right like

1868
01:53:47,880 --> 01:53:48,359
the Christians.

1869
01:53:48,439 --> 01:53:51,319
Speaker 5: Well, the Qoran also says that people who believe in

1870
01:53:52,720 --> 01:53:55,720
partners with Allah or idolators and should be killed. So

1871
01:53:55,800 --> 01:53:57,760
now I don't think you actually believe that we're close.

1872
01:53:59,319 --> 01:54:08,159
Speaker 21: No, that's very upcoming. Quran says that Jesus was a prophet,

1873
01:54:08,319 --> 01:54:10,680
a messenger and not a son of God.

1874
01:54:10,840 --> 01:54:14,079
Speaker 6: But Christians have like changed it or.

1875
01:54:14,239 --> 01:54:16,600
Speaker 5: No, I understand that. That's what you say, we believe.

1876
01:54:16,720 --> 01:54:21,960
I understand that. But what I'm arguing is that in reality,

1877
01:54:22,319 --> 01:54:26,359
the Quran also says, and I believe the Quran contradicts.

1878
01:54:26,399 --> 01:54:27,880
I know you don't think it does, but I believe

1879
01:54:27,920 --> 01:54:30,920
that it does. So we have competing We have competing claim.

1880
01:54:30,960 --> 01:54:33,359
You believe your book is correct and doesn't contradict. I

1881
01:54:33,439 --> 01:54:36,279
believe my book is correct and doesn't contradict. My argument

1882
01:54:36,439 --> 01:54:40,039
is that the Quran itself, for example, in five forty

1883
01:54:40,119 --> 01:54:43,840
six and forty seven, says that Allah revealed himself in

1884
01:54:43,960 --> 01:54:48,800
the Torah and in a previous revelation. And so is

1885
01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:50,720
it true that all those words can be corrupted?

1886
01:54:54,520 --> 01:54:59,039
Speaker 9: Yes, people, people corrupted it, right, Well, I.

1887
01:54:59,039 --> 01:55:01,520
Speaker 5: Thought it's all on. So then then the Kuran could

1888
01:55:01,520 --> 01:55:03,479
be corrupted if people can corrupt all his words, right,

1889
01:55:03,880 --> 01:55:05,079
So that's where.

1890
01:55:04,920 --> 01:55:08,520
Speaker 9: I'm coming at. So in Quran Allah has mentioned that.

1891
01:55:10,159 --> 01:55:15,199
Speaker 21: He's taken responsibility by himself, that this book will never

1892
01:55:15,319 --> 01:55:16,760
be changed because there's the law.

1893
01:55:17,000 --> 01:55:18,840
Speaker 5: But wait a minute, it was his work. So he

1894
01:55:19,000 --> 01:55:22,119
wasn't responsible in the prior revelations that the humans corrupted.

1895
01:55:22,159 --> 01:55:23,920
He wasn't responsible for those, but he's going to be

1896
01:55:23,960 --> 01:55:24,720
responsible now.

1897
01:55:25,920 --> 01:55:28,199
Speaker 21: No, but he gave an open hand, like he gave

1898
01:55:29,680 --> 01:55:34,119
people the responsibility to be you know, good.

1899
01:55:34,199 --> 01:55:36,479
Speaker 5: Okay, so Uthman and all of that with the burning

1900
01:55:36,479 --> 01:55:39,119
of the various korans, was that also his responsibility or

1901
01:55:39,119 --> 01:55:39,680
how did that work?

1902
01:55:40,159 --> 01:55:40,199
Speaker 6: No?

1903
01:55:40,279 --> 01:55:40,520
Speaker 3: No, no no.

1904
01:55:40,880 --> 01:55:43,960
Speaker 9: So so Quran doesn't like book doesn't matter?

1905
01:55:44,079 --> 01:55:46,600
Speaker 5: I tell you why, because the book doesn't matter of

1906
01:55:46,680 --> 01:55:56,479
the prophet, right, the book doesn't matter? Seth, sir? What's up?

1907
01:56:02,359 --> 01:56:03,239
The book doesn't matter?

1908
01:56:03,319 --> 01:56:03,439
Speaker 6: Now?

1909
01:56:03,720 --> 01:56:12,159
Speaker 5: So what's up? Yep? I should probably hop off and

1910
01:56:12,359 --> 01:56:12,920
hop back in.

1911
01:56:13,319 --> 01:56:16,399
Speaker 27: Uh, it's kind of I got him at the worst

1912
01:56:16,439 --> 01:56:17,039
possible time.

1913
01:56:17,119 --> 01:56:33,920
Speaker 5: So that's fine. Yeah, come back when you're ready. Roscoe. Hello, Yeah,

1914
01:56:33,960 --> 01:56:35,600
what's up? Yeah?

1915
01:56:35,640 --> 01:56:39,000
Speaker 8: I have a question about uh, absolutely define simplicity from

1916
01:56:39,039 --> 01:56:40,039
a perspective.

1917
01:56:41,119 --> 01:56:41,399
Speaker 5: Okay.

1918
01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:45,159
Speaker 8: I was talking to my Irani and she a friend,

1919
01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:51,359
and he said that Allah reveals himself through intermediary created

1920
01:56:51,399 --> 01:56:54,319
principles like the moms or the created bigo.

1921
01:56:54,479 --> 01:56:56,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then it just moves a problem back a step.

1922
01:56:56,319 --> 01:56:58,800
So I was listening to all of doctor Khalil's talk

1923
01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:01,359
on all of that and everything that he was critiquing

1924
01:57:01,439 --> 01:57:04,720
the other positions for He's in the exact same boat.

1925
01:57:04,840 --> 01:57:08,479
Because if Gabriel gets the revelation from Allah and then

1926
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:13,800
and then Jabriel makes it accessible to the humans, Jabril

1927
01:57:13,880 --> 01:57:15,800
is still a creature. So how is he getting these

1928
01:57:15,880 --> 01:57:16,680
uncreated words?

1929
01:57:18,399 --> 01:57:20,640
Speaker 8: Well, they don't believe it's uncreated like she has will

1930
01:57:20,680 --> 01:57:23,960
say that for example, the Quran doesn't it does it does?

1931
01:57:24,199 --> 01:57:26,600
Speaker 12: It can be corrupted in their religion, that's what they believe.

1932
01:57:26,960 --> 01:57:28,920
Speaker 5: But I'm saying that I'm not talking about the book.

1933
01:57:29,000 --> 01:57:34,279
I'm talking about the revelation from the eternal Scroll or

1934
01:57:34,359 --> 01:57:39,880
whatever to that Jabril is. The problem is between Allah

1935
01:57:40,119 --> 01:57:43,760
and Jabril. It's the same problem because Jabril is a creature.

1936
01:57:45,279 --> 01:57:48,079
Speaker 12: So are you saying that, like, how does Jabriel ground

1937
01:57:48,159 --> 01:57:48,720
this knowledge?

1938
01:57:50,079 --> 01:57:53,000
Speaker 5: The problem? So, if you watch doctor Khalill's lecture where

1939
01:57:53,039 --> 01:57:56,479
he critiques the Ashari and the Wahabbies and all of that,

1940
01:57:57,159 --> 01:58:00,640
he talks about the different positions and he says that

1941
01:58:02,520 --> 01:58:05,399
the the way that the going from memory, the way

1942
01:58:05,399 --> 01:58:08,319
the the Shari discuss it is that they don't believe

1943
01:58:08,359 --> 01:58:11,279
that Allah has parts, but they do believe that there's

1944
01:58:11,319 --> 01:58:14,840
this uncreated Qur'an. And so how is there an uncreated

1945
01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:17,279
Qur'an that's other than a law? And so my point

1946
01:58:17,359 --> 01:58:20,840
is just simply that if he believes that there's an

1947
01:58:20,960 --> 01:58:25,680
uncreated or achievement that there's an eternal tablet, that it's

1948
01:58:25,800 --> 01:58:31,520
still there's still a gap between the uncreated, whether it's

1949
01:58:31,560 --> 01:58:33,560
from Allah to the tablet or whether it's from the

1950
01:58:33,640 --> 01:58:37,760
tablets to Jabril. The problem still remains. If there's nothing

1951
01:58:38,039 --> 01:58:41,159
like Allah, then how do you get any point in

1952
01:58:41,279 --> 01:58:44,199
this chain of a created similarity to the uncreated.

1953
01:58:45,600 --> 01:58:48,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's what I asked him, and he, I guess,

1954
01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:53,399
uh prevaricated. I tried forcing an analogical predication which could

1955
01:58:53,439 --> 01:58:57,399
contradict his ads, right, but he kept on saying that

1956
01:58:58,800 --> 01:59:03,079
the action is only done through the imoms from all

1957
01:59:03,119 --> 01:59:05,239
of creation and that these are creative effects and they're

1958
01:59:05,279 --> 01:59:06,079
not like Allah.

1959
01:59:06,800 --> 01:59:09,600
Speaker 5: Well, a creative effect does not like the uncreated.

1960
01:59:09,680 --> 01:59:12,439
Speaker 8: So this Mexico, what I tried saying, like, for example,

1961
01:59:12,640 --> 01:59:14,840
is Allah's knowledge uncreated?

1962
01:59:15,439 --> 01:59:16,359
Speaker 5: How do you share this?

1963
01:59:16,680 --> 01:59:19,640
Speaker 12: How do you share a similarity to what what knowledge

1964
01:59:19,680 --> 01:59:20,560
Allah has revealed to you?

1965
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:25,319
Speaker 8: He said, you appeal to the logic of Dionysius and said, well,

1966
01:59:25,359 --> 01:59:26,640
Allah is not lacking.

1967
01:59:26,359 --> 01:59:28,600
Speaker 12: And knowledge he surpasses it to the extent that.

1968
01:59:30,720 --> 01:59:34,199
Speaker 8: He's not lacking, but it's sort of overflowing in him,

1969
01:59:34,279 --> 01:59:36,600
and it's so is it's sort of super knowledge that

1970
01:59:36,720 --> 01:59:37,479
cannot be compared.

1971
01:59:37,720 --> 01:59:38,479
Speaker 5: Well, how does he know that?

1972
01:59:38,600 --> 01:59:38,760
Speaker 6: Though?

1973
01:59:38,840 --> 01:59:40,439
Speaker 5: I mean, he would have to have access to the

1974
01:59:40,479 --> 01:59:42,239
thing that he says is in question.

1975
01:59:43,119 --> 01:59:43,840
Speaker 1: It's in his Uh.

1976
01:59:44,000 --> 01:59:46,720
Speaker 8: I'm pretty sure some of these shiah hideas and then

1977
01:59:46,800 --> 01:59:47,760
thems no.

1978
01:59:47,880 --> 01:59:49,880
Speaker 5: But I'm saying that you can appeal to that, but

1979
01:59:50,000 --> 01:59:51,920
that's still begging the question that how do we know

1980
01:59:52,000 --> 01:59:54,720
that it's actually matching up to the thing that's beyond.

1981
01:59:57,079 --> 01:59:59,840
Speaker 12: Yeah, there's no predication for them as all apathetic.

1982
02:00:01,560 --> 02:00:03,680
Speaker 5: So yeah, That's what I'm trying to say, is like,

1983
02:00:03,960 --> 02:00:06,800
you can't have a totally apathetic system. At some point,

1984
02:00:06,840 --> 02:00:08,960
you're going to have to have something catapatic to be

1985
02:00:09,039 --> 02:00:12,000
able to speak about it. But they've already sort of

1986
02:00:12,159 --> 02:00:16,000
shot themselves in the foot with their either their ADS

1987
02:00:16,319 --> 02:00:19,680
or just the you know, Quran forty two that there's

1988
02:00:19,720 --> 02:00:20,439
nothing like a law.

1989
02:00:22,119 --> 02:00:25,079
Speaker 12: Okay, I guess I'll have to investigate it a little

1990
02:00:25,079 --> 02:00:26,520
bit more to explain it to him.

1991
02:00:26,520 --> 02:00:28,720
Speaker 8: But do you have any books critiquing this sort of

1992
02:00:28,840 --> 02:00:31,479
neoplatonism and the ADS in general that you can we're

1993
02:00:31,520 --> 02:00:32,920
just online resources.

1994
02:00:32,520 --> 02:00:34,720
Speaker 5: In general, I mean all the Orthodox Church fathers, I

1995
02:00:34,760 --> 02:00:37,920
mean especially the cab Docians, like when they're responding to Eunomius.

1996
02:00:38,279 --> 02:00:42,039
Eunomius is a Neoplatonist. So every argument for the essence

1997
02:00:42,079 --> 02:00:46,359
introduce sinction is by default an argument against the ADS

1998
02:00:46,640 --> 02:00:49,600
Neoplatonic Roman Catholic position.

1999
02:00:50,680 --> 02:00:53,399
Speaker 8: Yeah, I've seen some of these quotes, but honestly, I

2000
02:00:53,479 --> 02:00:56,800
think that only really maps onto like a worldview where

2001
02:00:56,800 --> 02:00:59,880
there's Christian presuppositions. You know what I'm saying, We're like

2002
02:01:00,079 --> 02:01:02,399
is a common sort of revelation. It doesn't really exist

2003
02:01:02,520 --> 02:01:03,800
in the Muslim worldon.

2004
02:01:04,000 --> 02:01:06,560
Speaker 5: Well, okay, but said, but what I'm saying is that

2005
02:01:06,920 --> 02:01:12,000
the way that we go about critiquing neoplatonic movements and

2006
02:01:12,039 --> 02:01:16,199
presuppositions is more than just I mean, there's internal problems

2007
02:01:16,239 --> 02:01:19,720
with those positions to begin with. For example, when the

2008
02:01:19,800 --> 02:01:22,600
last time doctor Khalil came on here or some of

2009
02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:28,039
his students, they were actually arguing that it's not neoplatonism,

2010
02:01:28,159 --> 02:01:31,199
it's actually from the Quran. And I'm like, so the

2011
02:01:31,279 --> 02:01:34,880
Qoran didn't get this from the positions that were centuries

2012
02:01:34,920 --> 02:01:38,119
prior to the Qoran, No, I mean, which I think

2013
02:01:38,199 --> 02:01:40,720
is kind of retarded. So I just ask your friend

2014
02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:42,960
if he believes, like, in other words, it's cribbed, like

2015
02:01:43,520 --> 02:01:47,279
most of Islam is cribbed. And so whether it's Islam,

2016
02:01:47,359 --> 02:01:49,479
it's whether it's they're cribbing from the Talmud or from

2017
02:01:49,560 --> 02:01:53,039
Christianity or from Orthodoxy or what the shiahs, they're cribbing

2018
02:01:53,079 --> 02:01:55,920
from neoplatonism. And they'll even kind of admit this, but

2019
02:01:56,000 --> 02:01:58,520
then when you ask them if it's borrowed from neoplatonism,

2020
02:01:58,520 --> 02:02:00,359
they're like, no, it's from a lot, it's from the Kuran.

2021
02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:03,359
So it's like, how is it from Allah in the Quran.

2022
02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:06,760
If it came from Platina centuries early, I think it could.

2023
02:02:06,560 --> 02:02:09,039
Speaker 8: Be similar to like a logo supermatico as sort of

2024
02:02:09,119 --> 02:02:10,520
like semi perennialism thing.

2025
02:02:10,640 --> 02:02:12,720
Speaker 5: They didn't try to argue that maybe they maybe they

2026
02:02:12,760 --> 02:02:14,359
could go that route, but no, they were actually just

2027
02:02:14,399 --> 02:02:16,319
saying that, no, it's not actually from Plato.

2028
02:02:16,359 --> 02:02:18,640
Speaker 12: And it's like they say it's original.

2029
02:02:19,000 --> 02:02:21,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, I didn't know that?

2030
02:02:21,399 --> 02:02:22,000
Speaker 12: Is that I thought too?

2031
02:02:22,000 --> 02:02:24,880
Speaker 5: They don't say that, well, maybe this was just like

2032
02:02:25,600 --> 02:02:29,159
misinformed students of his or something. I don't know, but right,

2033
02:02:29,600 --> 02:02:32,359
but I mean what I'm but still like the point

2034
02:02:32,399 --> 02:02:35,279
would still stand, Like even if if that's the case,

2035
02:02:35,399 --> 02:02:38,680
then was that revelation from Allah prior to the Quran?

2036
02:02:38,760 --> 02:02:41,319
And I mean, does did those that I'll get corrupted

2037
02:02:41,359 --> 02:02:42,920
to all his words get corrupted? I thought all his

2038
02:02:43,039 --> 02:02:44,000
words can't get corrupted.

2039
02:02:45,520 --> 02:02:47,239
Speaker 8: They don't believe that actually, Like they say that the

2040
02:02:47,319 --> 02:02:50,079
Qur'an in some places has been like burned or taken

2041
02:02:50,119 --> 02:02:50,880
out or at itude.

2042
02:02:52,079 --> 02:02:54,079
Speaker 5: Right, I understand that the shields will admit that. But

2043
02:02:54,399 --> 02:02:56,720
what I'm trying to say is like, then at what

2044
02:02:56,920 --> 02:02:59,199
point is the is it the true revelation They're going

2045
02:02:59,279 --> 02:03:01,000
to say it's the real tablet.

2046
02:03:00,760 --> 02:03:04,239
Speaker 12: Right, Yeah, so there's like no consistent Okay.

2047
02:03:04,039 --> 02:03:06,119
Speaker 5: So but how do I know where's the access to

2048
02:03:06,239 --> 02:03:08,079
the tablet? Where does that come from? Where do we

2049
02:03:08,119 --> 02:03:15,079
get that? How do I know what the infallible emoms are?

2050
02:03:15,159 --> 02:03:17,079
And how am I supposed to know and follow them?

2051
02:03:18,239 --> 02:03:20,039
It's just it's just moving the problem, like from one

2052
02:03:20,079 --> 02:03:22,239
created thing to another created thing to another created thing.

2053
02:03:22,319 --> 02:03:25,279
It's like the just kicking the can down the road

2054
02:03:25,319 --> 02:03:30,319
in terms of a pistolalogy. All right, anyway, good questions. Yeah,

2055
02:03:30,319 --> 02:03:33,119
I'm not super well read on the she is, but.

2056
02:03:34,640 --> 02:03:34,880
Speaker 6: I'm not.

2057
02:03:36,640 --> 02:03:39,079
Speaker 5: I mean, you could critique Neil Platonism on just the

2058
02:03:39,119 --> 02:03:42,199
way that we would critique Platonism, like why is there

2059
02:03:42,600 --> 02:03:45,000
an like what is the emanation from the one? And

2060
02:03:45,199 --> 02:03:48,399
like why is it of a lesser diminished status? And

2061
02:03:48,560 --> 02:03:54,399
you know, like Platonism, like how do we know that

2062
02:03:54,520 --> 02:03:57,600
the one is ontologically superior to the many? That's a

2063
02:03:57,640 --> 02:04:01,239
Hellenic presupposition that is just stated and asserted. How do

2064
02:04:01,279 --> 02:04:03,319
we know that that's the case? Because the system rests

2065
02:04:03,359 --> 02:04:06,079
on these kinds of metaphysic assumptions, which are all from

2066
02:04:06,159 --> 02:04:07,960
Hellenism and then they'll just turn around and be like,

2067
02:04:08,000 --> 02:04:11,039
now it's not from Hellenism, it's from the Coron. So

2068
02:04:11,239 --> 02:04:14,319
I just don't know how you go about something like that.

2069
02:04:14,520 --> 02:04:18,279
But aside from all these metaphysical disputes, like, did anybody

2070
02:04:18,399 --> 02:04:21,399
just watch the doctor Khalil sam Chumun debate, I mean,

2071
02:04:21,640 --> 02:04:36,600
Sam Schimun demolished him. So X trip, what's up? What's up?

2072
02:04:36,680 --> 02:04:36,800
Speaker 6: Man?

2073
02:04:37,039 --> 02:04:38,199
Speaker 5: X Trip? I'm mute.

2074
02:04:42,199 --> 02:04:44,239
Speaker 6: Hey, can you hear me? Hm?

2075
02:04:45,600 --> 02:04:47,000
Speaker 12: I just got a quick question for you.

2076
02:04:48,880 --> 02:04:51,840
Speaker 22: What do you think of the position that the modern

2077
02:04:51,920 --> 02:04:54,920
Jews of today are the descendants.

2078
02:04:54,399 --> 02:04:55,239
Speaker 25: Of flam.

2079
02:04:56,800 --> 02:05:03,359
Speaker 5: It's crazy lunacy. Who believes that Jews are the.

2080
02:05:04,840 --> 02:05:09,119
Speaker 17: What right are you familiar with the Dustin Nemos.

2081
02:05:08,840 --> 02:05:09,359
Speaker 1: In his works?

2082
02:05:09,520 --> 02:05:13,520
Speaker 5: No, ro, I'm orthodox. Why am I going to be

2083
02:05:13,840 --> 02:05:17,600
following some quack weirdo Protestant guy? Like, is this like

2084
02:05:17,680 --> 02:05:18,760
Christian identity stuff?

2085
02:05:18,840 --> 02:05:19,399
Speaker 6: Is that what that is?

2086
02:05:21,159 --> 02:05:22,680
Speaker 9: I got sort of all right.

2087
02:05:22,640 --> 02:05:25,199
Speaker 5: That stuff's all retarded. Man, Come on, that's that's not

2088
02:05:25,279 --> 02:05:35,319
even worth That's not even worth anybodace don puppet, I'm

2089
02:05:35,359 --> 02:05:39,680
debating with a puppet. I pull it, oh, puppet.

2090
02:05:41,000 --> 02:05:44,479
Speaker 12: We love the Jews, unbelievable Jews not so much.

2091
02:05:44,560 --> 02:05:47,880
Speaker 9: We don't love the jay. I'm at Protestant, Can you

2092
02:05:47,920 --> 02:05:48,119
hear me?

2093
02:05:48,159 --> 02:05:48,479
Speaker 6: All right?

2094
02:05:50,439 --> 02:05:51,600
Speaker 9: I'm an attorney as well.

2095
02:05:51,720 --> 02:05:53,800
Speaker 28: My other attorney Buddy and I are listening to you

2096
02:05:53,960 --> 02:05:55,800
right now, and we've been listening to you for a

2097
02:05:55,880 --> 02:05:59,439
few weeks now. He said something fifteen minutes ago about

2098
02:06:01,039 --> 02:06:04,600
the judiciary and kind of compared the ultimate authority of

2099
02:06:04,720 --> 02:06:08,319
the church having the judiciary like co comparing it to

2100
02:06:08,359 --> 02:06:10,479
the Supreme Court of having like a final say this

2101
02:06:10,560 --> 02:06:14,960
to the authority of what. Yeah, we had actually brought

2102
02:06:14,960 --> 02:06:18,399
that analogy up earlier. We are wrestling with Apostolic succession

2103
02:06:19,199 --> 02:06:23,920
and we're listening to you a few other people. How

2104
02:06:23,960 --> 02:06:27,039
do you deal with the objections that that's too restrictive,

2105
02:06:27,560 --> 02:06:31,199
that that presents some issues that like originalism would present

2106
02:06:31,319 --> 02:06:33,279
where there's not this golden era where the church was

2107
02:06:33,399 --> 02:06:36,359
unified or that like on the Day of Pentecost they

2108
02:06:36,399 --> 02:06:40,199
were all unified in spirit, but they maybe not necessarily

2109
02:06:40,279 --> 02:06:42,720
had gone through all these problems of heresy that encounters

2110
02:06:42,800 --> 02:06:45,399
later on down the line. And to the second point

2111
02:06:45,439 --> 02:06:48,600
of that, as you could respond that the critique of

2112
02:06:48,640 --> 02:06:50,800
Protestanism of just us you know, I can go with

2113
02:06:50,880 --> 02:06:52,640
some bodies and get my Bible and say this is

2114
02:06:52,680 --> 02:06:56,039
what it means. How do you respond, how that's any

2115
02:06:56,119 --> 02:07:00,159
different other than the time period for those councils who

2116
02:07:00,239 --> 02:07:02,840
also would kind of go in before the Bible or

2117
02:07:02,920 --> 02:07:04,640
with some of these scripts or some of these people

2118
02:07:04,760 --> 02:07:07,840
that knew Jesus and iron things out, or are they

2119
02:07:08,000 --> 02:07:10,840
kind of doing the same thing that separates us now

2120
02:07:11,000 --> 02:07:11,680
from what they did?

2121
02:07:12,319 --> 02:07:14,479
Speaker 5: Right, Well, if you listen to answer the second part,

2122
02:07:14,640 --> 02:07:18,640
I said specifically that it's a Roman Catholic objection that

2123
02:07:18,720 --> 02:07:21,199
you hear all the time to Protestants that I don't

2124
02:07:21,399 --> 02:07:25,039
think is a very good argument to say that you

2125
02:07:25,199 --> 02:07:27,119
guys are just reading your Bible on your own, and

2126
02:07:27,199 --> 02:07:29,199
you all are coming to your own interpretations, and so

2127
02:07:29,319 --> 02:07:32,560
therefore the papacy's necessary. That's like ninety five percent of

2128
02:07:32,600 --> 02:07:36,279
the pop Catholic car salesman apologists. I specifically said, that

2129
02:07:36,399 --> 02:07:39,600
is not a good argument, because everybody's in the same boat.

2130
02:07:39,640 --> 02:07:41,439
We're all going to be reading the Bible and trying

2131
02:07:41,479 --> 02:07:42,920
to figure out what it means. We're all going to

2132
02:07:42,960 --> 02:07:46,800
be relying on our interpretation. That's unavoidable. But where we

2133
02:07:46,960 --> 02:07:50,399
differ between Catholic protests and Orthodox is the means that

2134
02:07:50,520 --> 02:07:54,279
we're going to be using or relying on to interpret

2135
02:07:54,359 --> 02:07:57,720
and get that meaning that data. For the Orthodox, it's

2136
02:07:57,840 --> 02:08:00,960
a collection of a lot of different things that we

2137
02:08:01,079 --> 02:08:03,640
don't pick one thing out like, oh, I just followed

2138
02:08:03,680 --> 02:08:06,239
this church father, I just follow this guy, I just

2139
02:08:06,319 --> 02:08:09,560
followed this book. For us, all these different things, whether

2140
02:08:09,640 --> 02:08:12,680
it's participation in the liturgy, whether it's reading church history

2141
02:08:12,680 --> 02:08:15,239
and church fathers, reading the councils, reading the Bible, lies

2142
02:08:15,239 --> 02:08:16,720
of the Saints, all those things are going to be

2143
02:08:17,000 --> 02:08:20,920
combined to be part of our ethos for where we

2144
02:08:21,039 --> 02:08:24,399
get the data and the meaning and the interpretation. If

2145
02:08:24,439 --> 02:08:27,960
you're a Roman Catholic, ultimately your ultimate epistemic principle is

2146
02:08:28,039 --> 02:08:32,399
not the Bible. It's not your private, you know, experience.

2147
02:08:32,520 --> 02:08:35,760
It's what the popes have determined. And then you got

2148
02:08:35,880 --> 02:08:39,479
to like grapple with the papal documents and the councils

2149
02:08:39,720 --> 02:08:42,159
and where the popes confirm the councils. So that's the

2150
02:08:42,279 --> 02:08:45,600
ultimate epistemic principle for the Roman Catholic. For the Protestant,

2151
02:08:45,960 --> 02:08:48,199
it's ultimately you and the Bible. I'm not saying that

2152
02:08:48,279 --> 02:08:52,119
Protestants don't like church history or councils or whatever. But ultimately,

2153
02:08:52,239 --> 02:08:56,520
the final authority of soul scripture is the only infallible

2154
02:08:56,960 --> 02:08:59,760
guy for the church is the you know, Protestant Canada scriptures.

2155
02:08:59,800 --> 02:09:04,479
So well, that's the epistemic existential dilemma that everyone's in,

2156
02:09:05,000 --> 02:09:07,600
and everybody is going to say and believe, well, I'm

2157
02:09:07,640 --> 02:09:11,000
relying ultimately on the Holy Spirit. Where we differ is

2158
02:09:11,079 --> 02:09:14,000
the means. The Orthodox is going to argue that the

2159
02:09:14,199 --> 02:09:16,920
means to determine the scriptures and the divine what divine

2160
02:09:16,960 --> 02:09:19,520
revelation is is going to be that holistic stuff that

2161
02:09:19,600 --> 02:09:22,239
I that I listed. For the Roman Catholic, it's going

2162
02:09:22,279 --> 02:09:25,079
to be the decisions of the popes. For the Protestant,

2163
02:09:25,199 --> 02:09:27,079
it's going to be ultimately you and the Bible. So

2164
02:09:27,680 --> 02:09:32,319
I would argue that the Church in its history disproves

2165
02:09:32,479 --> 02:09:36,159
both the papal and the Protestant approach to the means

2166
02:09:36,439 --> 02:09:39,319
of knowing revelation. That Church history in the first thousand

2167
02:09:39,399 --> 02:09:44,720
years demonstrates a consistent principle of the Church using the

2168
02:09:44,880 --> 02:09:48,159
Church fathers the scriptures and deciding what books go into

2169
02:09:48,159 --> 02:09:51,960
the scriptures, and apisodic succession was there before the Bible

2170
02:09:52,079 --> 02:09:54,119
was there. That's why Paul says the Church of the

2171
02:09:54,159 --> 02:09:56,520
pilarm ground of truth, not the written text. The church

2172
02:09:56,680 --> 02:10:00,239
produced the written text, and so apisodic succession is a

2173
02:10:00,560 --> 02:10:06,079
presupposition for having a collection of books known as the Canon. Secondly,

2174
02:10:06,159 --> 02:10:09,840
I would say that it's just an analogy to the

2175
02:10:10,840 --> 02:10:15,359
Supreme Court to illustrate the principle of normative authority. So

2176
02:10:15,439 --> 02:10:20,079
in philosophy we make a distinction between the individual existential

2177
02:10:20,199 --> 02:10:23,479
dilemma of how do I know what's the true church.

2178
02:10:24,079 --> 02:10:26,880
It's a separate but kind of related question of what's

2179
02:10:26,920 --> 02:10:30,079
called normative authority in ethics, which is the question of

2180
02:10:30,279 --> 02:10:33,640
is there any body of people that has the authority

2181
02:10:33,760 --> 02:10:37,279
to bind people to an interpretation or to bind consciences

2182
02:10:37,359 --> 02:10:40,760
and by extension, to excommunicate people, et cetera. So the

2183
02:10:40,920 --> 02:10:44,399
Orthodox argument is that, yes, you do also need It's

2184
02:10:44,439 --> 02:10:47,000
not that the Protestant can't read the Bible and figure

2185
02:10:47,039 --> 02:10:49,479
out things and see, oh, yes, the Bible teaches Jesus

2186
02:10:49,840 --> 02:10:52,239
is divine, he's the son of God, he died on

2187
02:10:52,319 --> 02:10:54,560
the cross. Right protests most of the time get all

2188
02:10:54,600 --> 02:11:00,359
that correct. So it's not necessarily an individual epistemology question.

2189
02:11:00,560 --> 02:11:04,319
It could be, but usually what is that root here

2190
02:11:04,600 --> 02:11:08,600
is a question of did Jesus provide the Church, any

2191
02:11:08,800 --> 02:11:12,479
historical body of people with authority to bind consciences? And

2192
02:11:12,560 --> 02:11:15,159
that the reason I word it that way is that's

2193
02:11:15,239 --> 02:11:20,079
what directly contrasts to the classical Reformation doctrine of freedom

2194
02:11:20,119 --> 02:11:23,720
of conscience, freedom of private interpretation. No authorities can bind

2195
02:11:23,760 --> 02:11:26,319
you to your conscience. So do you see how it's

2196
02:11:26,359 --> 02:11:32,800
two different questions between individual existential certitude versus the historical

2197
02:11:32,920 --> 02:11:37,800
question of a public body of people like the Supreme Court,

2198
02:11:37,840 --> 02:11:39,359
who can bind people to an interpretation?

2199
02:11:41,760 --> 02:11:43,800
Speaker 28: Yes, but how would you respond to.

2200
02:11:45,520 --> 02:11:48,279
Speaker 9: The idea that those that it would be.

2201
02:11:48,279 --> 02:11:51,640
Speaker 28: A cop out for someone who's used an Orthodox to say, okay,

2202
02:11:51,800 --> 02:11:55,840
so the person who was next to Jesus on the cross,

2203
02:11:56,159 --> 02:11:58,199
he might not have identified as he's an Orthodox, but

2204
02:11:58,640 --> 02:12:00,560
he was just an a normative pas sort of all

2205
02:12:00,600 --> 02:12:02,359
drains lead to the ocean. Or like what about the

2206
02:12:02,439 --> 02:12:05,560
coal miner in early America who hasn't encounter with the

2207
02:12:05,600 --> 02:12:09,399
Holy Spirit and God starts this movement in him, maybe

2208
02:12:09,439 --> 02:12:12,439
in his family, but he never even hears about the

2209
02:12:12,520 --> 02:12:13,279
Orthodox Church.

2210
02:12:13,680 --> 02:12:17,439
Speaker 5: Well, our position is that the normative way that people

2211
02:12:17,520 --> 02:12:19,920
are joined to the mystical body of Christ, which we

2212
02:12:20,039 --> 02:12:23,479
think is the Orthodox Church is through baptism and catechisis

2213
02:12:24,319 --> 02:12:26,680
now God has the means by which he can join

2214
02:12:26,720 --> 02:12:30,720
people to that body extra normatively and by his own power.

2215
02:12:30,800 --> 02:12:32,600
So the thief on the cross doesn't have to hear

2216
02:12:32,680 --> 02:12:35,239
the whole message of you know, I mean he didn't.

2217
02:12:35,800 --> 02:12:38,319
He wasn't even alive yet four Paul's Epistles, the Book

2218
02:12:38,359 --> 02:12:42,079
of Revelation, right, So it's not the amount of knowledge again,

2219
02:12:42,239 --> 02:12:45,479
it's the attitude of humility. And we believe as Orthodox

2220
02:12:45,560 --> 02:12:48,079
that he actually was joined to the Orthodox Church. We

2221
02:12:48,239 --> 02:12:51,279
don't believe that there's this like later period in the

2222
02:12:51,399 --> 02:12:54,000
seven hundreds where there's this entity that pops up called

2223
02:12:54,039 --> 02:12:56,520
the Orthodox Church. We believe and if you read the

2224
02:12:56,600 --> 02:12:59,439
first second third century Church fathers, they teach the same

2225
02:12:59,560 --> 02:13:02,760
things for the most part, on the big issues that

2226
02:13:03,079 --> 02:13:06,159
the church fathers after Nicia teach. So we don't believe

2227
02:13:06,199 --> 02:13:08,960
that there was some vast change, you know, after the

2228
02:13:09,039 --> 02:13:11,560
Council of Nicea as opposed to the pre Nicing fathers,

2229
02:13:11,640 --> 02:13:14,760
or that there was some vast change by the Prenesen

2230
02:13:14,800 --> 02:13:17,239
fathers over the teachings of the apostles. We think they're

2231
02:13:17,279 --> 02:13:19,640
all in harmony, and you can read the post Apostolic

2232
02:13:19,720 --> 02:13:24,359
Fathers to see that, you can read Ignacious, you know, Polycarp, Clement.

2233
02:13:24,520 --> 02:13:27,640
All of those things will show you the continuity with

2234
02:13:27,760 --> 02:13:30,239
the teachings of the Apostles. So I don't see that

2235
02:13:30,279 --> 02:13:35,720
would be a cop out. Yeah, that was a great question.

2236
02:13:36,000 --> 02:13:38,039
I feel free to call in anytime now, guys. I've

2237
02:13:38,079 --> 02:13:41,199
got not a whole lot of time left because I

2238
02:13:41,319 --> 02:13:45,239
have a interview a big name person that we're gonna

2239
02:13:45,239 --> 02:13:47,720
interview here in a little bit. I don't I think

2240
02:13:47,760 --> 02:13:49,720
we'll just pre record it. I don't think it'll be live,

2241
02:13:50,159 --> 02:13:52,119
but it'll probably go up in the next few days.

2242
02:13:52,279 --> 02:13:57,159
You'll see who that is important person who left liberalism,

2243
02:13:57,359 --> 02:14:01,640
and so we're gonna talk to her about what prompted

2244
02:14:01,720 --> 02:14:04,560
her to move in that direction, what convinced her of

2245
02:14:05,600 --> 02:14:09,399
the problems of the left, and why she's moved more

2246
02:14:09,439 --> 02:14:11,560
in our direction to all the way where we are.

2247
02:14:11,680 --> 02:14:15,760
But she's left the death cult of the left, the

2248
02:14:15,880 --> 02:14:18,319
left death cult, which is good news. So I'll be

2249
02:14:18,560 --> 02:14:20,000
leaving her in a minute to talk to her. When

2250
02:14:20,000 --> 02:14:23,359
to remind you guys too, that we have a show

2251
02:14:23,439 --> 02:14:26,960
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to use that recurring promo code there. You can also

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02:14:43,760 --> 02:14:46,079
use J y forty to just get forty percent off

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02:14:47,840 --> 02:14:50,520
out that performance, stack JAY four zero to get forty

2261
02:14:50,560 --> 02:14:53,920
percent off just a base test run there. But if

2262
02:14:53,920 --> 02:14:56,159
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2263
02:14:56,239 --> 02:14:58,119
can get it coming on the regular. You're gonna love it,

2264
02:14:58,239 --> 02:15:00,960
especially the ton kettleie. Especially the action to point oh

2265
02:15:01,039 --> 02:15:03,439
chad mode is really intense, so go easy on it.

2266
02:15:04,079 --> 02:15:06,079
It's definitely a great pre workout if you want to

2267
02:15:06,119 --> 02:15:09,800
test it out. But my favorite, of course is talk Catalite.

2268
02:15:09,840 --> 02:15:11,319
That's why I have so much energy to do so

2269
02:15:11,399 --> 02:15:13,720
many streams all the time, and we still go into

2270
02:15:13,800 --> 02:15:18,359
our workouts when we're not struggling with freaking stomach aids

2271
02:15:18,479 --> 02:15:21,960
or whatever. I had for for several weeks or two

2272
02:15:22,000 --> 02:15:25,840
weeks was a nightmare. Walmart welch one dollar. Have you

2273
02:15:25,920 --> 02:15:29,800
heard of Steve Stefan's his Stephan, then this mays be

2274
02:15:29,920 --> 02:15:32,760
making of Stephan from setting out loud Stephan's history of

2275
02:15:32,800 --> 02:15:35,359
the world, I have not. He's a normy science man.

2276
02:15:35,880 --> 02:15:38,800
He asserts higher criticism as the true history of the Hebrews,

2277
02:15:39,000 --> 02:15:42,279
very much like Mythvision. Well, I think you guys all

2278
02:15:42,359 --> 02:15:46,800
saw that when we did our impromptu debate with Derek Mythvision.

2279
02:15:46,880 --> 02:15:50,039
It didn't go very well. Ninety nine percent of the

2280
02:15:50,079 --> 02:15:52,239
comments were kind of laughing at him and you if

2281
02:15:52,239 --> 02:15:54,319
you remember, he said he would he would be at

2282
02:15:55,000 --> 02:15:57,760
million or whatever, he would have the biggest channel on

2283
02:15:57,840 --> 02:16:00,239
this stuff by the end of the year, and his

2284
02:16:00,319 --> 02:16:03,960
prophecy did not come true. MKG. Five dollars. Sorry, do

2285
02:16:04,000 --> 02:16:06,960
I have more characters? To be specific? My question was

2286
02:16:08,640 --> 02:16:11,359
what are the means by which they get the blessing

2287
02:16:11,439 --> 02:16:14,439
from Isaac. The interpretation that makes sense to me was

2288
02:16:14,479 --> 02:16:17,600
that he was breaking his hip or the punishment later

2289
02:16:17,680 --> 02:16:21,600
down the line. I'm not sure. I'd have to think

2290
02:16:21,640 --> 02:16:25,239
about that. MKG. I appreciate the question. Maybe remind me

2291
02:16:25,720 --> 02:16:27,880
in the chat next time. I'll have to go and

2292
02:16:28,000 --> 02:16:30,560
think about I've got a bunch of Genesis commentaries. I

2293
02:16:30,680 --> 02:16:32,399
have to think about that. I'm not sure Walmart weigh

2294
02:16:32,479 --> 02:16:36,000
ninety six one dollar. All right, that was the normy

2295
02:16:36,079 --> 02:16:38,639
science man question, Dave two fifty? Can you recommend a book?

2296
02:16:38,760 --> 02:16:42,040
Can I recommend a book? Have you read Rulers of

2297
02:16:42,120 --> 02:16:43,959
the Evil Supper Saucy?

2298
02:16:45,639 --> 02:16:45,680
Speaker 3: No?

2299
02:16:45,920 --> 02:16:48,680
Speaker 5: Never heard of it, man, I highly recommend it. It's

2300
02:16:48,719 --> 02:16:51,360
out of print. It sells for three hundred to one

2301
02:16:51,399 --> 02:16:57,559
thousand pounds. Okay, what's it about Rulers of the Evil

2302
02:16:58,799 --> 02:17:02,600
Tupper Saucy? What's it about?

2303
02:17:02,639 --> 02:17:02,840
Speaker 6: Dude?

2304
02:17:02,879 --> 02:17:06,200
Speaker 5: Sounds crazy? Jony h five dollars twenty five cents. Thank

2305
02:17:06,200 --> 02:17:06,680
you for your work.

2306
02:17:06,760 --> 02:17:06,920
Speaker 6: Jay.

2307
02:17:06,959 --> 02:17:09,479
Speaker 5: What do you think of the massive influx of Islam

2308
02:17:09,559 --> 02:17:12,760
into Europe? Well, I've done many talks on that as

2309
02:17:12,840 --> 02:17:17,360
an older Fabian socialist plan to bring in Islam all

2310
02:17:17,399 --> 02:17:19,559
throughout Europe. If you look up all the books that

2311
02:17:19,600 --> 02:17:23,600
I did on the Milner Fabian works, they planned one

2312
02:17:23,639 --> 02:17:26,799
hundred years ago Vampire fo five dollars. They openly said

2313
02:17:26,799 --> 02:17:29,600
they wanted to do that one hundred years ago. I

2314
02:17:29,719 --> 02:17:32,559
recall you was talking about a scenario where old parties

2315
02:17:34,360 --> 02:17:37,399
would fall out of favor and then a technocrat would

2316
02:17:37,479 --> 02:17:42,120
run and he would be elected and turn out to

2317
02:17:42,280 --> 02:17:47,239
be a pro surveillance state. Old parties have fallenut of favor,

2318
02:17:48,360 --> 02:17:53,120
and a technocrat would run. Do you remember the video

2319
02:17:53,239 --> 02:17:55,040
or the book? I'm sorry, I don't remember what you're

2320
02:17:55,040 --> 02:17:59,760
talking about. Old party? Do you mean old political parties

2321
02:18:00,000 --> 02:18:04,120
all a favor? A technocrat runs and he's elected and

2322
02:18:04,319 --> 02:18:12,239
he brings about a surveillance state. I'm not sure. I

2323
02:18:12,280 --> 02:18:13,920
can't think of any books I've read. You like a

2324
02:18:14,040 --> 02:18:16,760
fiction book, a sci fi dystopian book. I can't think

2325
02:18:16,799 --> 02:18:21,559
of anywhere there's any scenario like that. But maybe you

2326
02:18:21,639 --> 02:18:23,920
don't mean a sci fi as maybe a Philip K. Dickbook.

2327
02:18:23,959 --> 02:18:24,440
Speaker 6: I don't. I don't know.

2328
02:18:24,760 --> 02:18:26,079
Speaker 5: By the way, we're I think we're going to do

2329
02:18:26,360 --> 02:18:28,879
our next fiction book. I think I'm going to do

2330
02:18:28,959 --> 02:18:32,239
Ubic by pkd that'll be fun. I'm pretty sure Ubik

2331
02:18:32,280 --> 02:18:35,559
predicted the Internet, right. I haven't read it so, but

2332
02:18:35,639 --> 02:18:37,559
I've heard that. So we'll check that out. Andy Mont

2333
02:18:37,639 --> 02:18:39,520
has three dollars? What's up today? Are there any books

2334
02:18:40,000 --> 02:18:43,639
that disprove theistic evolution? I mean the most famous is

2335
02:18:44,120 --> 02:18:46,760
Father SI from Roses Genesis Creation. Really, man, guys, remember

2336
02:18:46,840 --> 02:18:48,680
too that if you go to the Jason Alis's shop.

2337
02:18:48,760 --> 02:18:51,799
You can get signed copies of Esoteric Hollywood and that's

2338
02:18:51,840 --> 02:18:53,959
going to be a great weird Christmas gift if you

2339
02:18:54,000 --> 02:18:56,520
want to give your relatives and your normal relatives to

2340
02:18:56,520 --> 02:18:59,600
wake them up through movies a weird Christmas present, Esoteric

2341
02:18:59,600 --> 02:19:02,200
Hollywood one too. They're all signed copies at jason Alysis

2342
02:19:02,239 --> 02:19:07,680
in the shop. I got a little bit of time.

2343
02:19:07,959 --> 02:19:09,799
Let's say if we've got one more question here, last

2344
02:19:09,879 --> 02:19:13,799
question before I have to go do this interview. We

2345
02:19:13,879 --> 02:19:21,120
got like thirteen people that's crazy. Next in line is Dan.

2346
02:19:22,040 --> 02:19:22,440
What's up?

2347
02:19:22,520 --> 02:19:30,079
Speaker 6: Dan? Hey?

2348
02:19:30,079 --> 02:19:34,479
Speaker 1: You there, Yeah, I just gotta I got a question

2349
02:19:34,559 --> 02:19:34,719
for you.

2350
02:19:34,799 --> 02:19:35,760
Speaker 6: It's not so much at debate.

2351
02:19:35,840 --> 02:19:37,760
Speaker 27: You said earlier in the chat that you'd be willing

2352
02:19:37,840 --> 02:19:39,159
to answer questions.

2353
02:19:39,239 --> 02:19:39,799
Speaker 6: That's still true.

2354
02:19:39,879 --> 02:19:40,719
Speaker 5: You look at you debate.

2355
02:19:41,879 --> 02:19:42,159
Speaker 6: Okay.

2356
02:19:42,559 --> 02:19:45,399
Speaker 27: I was listening to a lecturer last night that John

2357
02:19:45,479 --> 02:19:49,360
Lennox did at the Stanford School of Medicine that was

2358
02:19:49,479 --> 02:19:49,760
kind of.

2359
02:19:49,760 --> 02:19:51,280
Speaker 12: About suffering, and.

2360
02:19:52,799 --> 02:19:54,760
Speaker 27: You could imagine that they probably they have to deal

2361
02:19:54,840 --> 02:19:56,840
with a lot of crazy things like kids with cancer

2362
02:19:56,879 --> 02:19:59,200
and stuff like that. Now, I'm not gonna ask the

2363
02:19:59,319 --> 02:20:04,079
question of why just suffering happy happen? But what it

2364
02:20:04,159 --> 02:20:08,799
did make me think about is if we are just

2365
02:20:08,840 --> 02:20:11,239
supposed to be thankful when things don't turn out our

2366
02:20:11,280 --> 02:20:16,040
way with prayer, Like why do we pray if we're

2367
02:20:16,040 --> 02:20:17,879
supposed to be thankful in the moments that things don't

2368
02:20:17,920 --> 02:20:19,959
work out, because that's God's plan for us, and he

2369
02:20:20,079 --> 02:20:22,920
must want us to learn something. If we're just gonna

2370
02:20:22,959 --> 02:20:25,920
get whatever we're gonna get, why do why would we pray?

2371
02:20:26,200 --> 02:20:29,559
Because it almost to me kind of comes down to

2372
02:20:29,719 --> 02:20:32,879
like a free will question, like why pray if we're

2373
02:20:32,920 --> 02:20:33,360
just gonna get?

2374
02:20:33,559 --> 02:20:35,479
Speaker 5: No, we don't just get whatever we're going to get.

2375
02:20:35,879 --> 02:20:40,360
I mean, God has chosen to condescend to have a

2376
02:20:40,440 --> 02:20:43,600
reciprocal relationship. So there's a really good paper that doctor

2377
02:20:43,680 --> 02:20:49,079
Bradshaw wrote about reciprocity. I think it's his. Uh, it's

2378
02:20:49,120 --> 02:20:51,360
in his book on the Energy's the one that's collectionable

2379
02:20:51,440 --> 02:20:53,680
the essays. There's a section in the first essay that

2380
02:20:53,799 --> 02:20:58,159
talks about God willing and wanting to have reciprocity. So

2381
02:20:58,200 --> 02:20:59,920
it's not the case that we're just going to get

2382
02:21:00,000 --> 02:21:04,000
whatever we get. We actually wants us to participate, and

2383
02:21:04,120 --> 02:21:08,079
he's chosen to react to those that do pray and

2384
02:21:08,639 --> 02:21:09,159
talk to him.

2385
02:21:10,440 --> 02:21:14,000
Speaker 27: So there's if we do pray, there's I guess potential that.

2386
02:21:15,600 --> 02:21:17,959
Speaker 6: We could swim in one direction or another.

2387
02:21:18,040 --> 02:21:19,440
Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, if you read the Book of Amos,

2388
02:21:19,639 --> 02:21:20,879
that's the whole point of the Book of Amos.

2389
02:21:20,959 --> 02:21:22,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I appreciate your time.

2390
02:21:22,959 --> 02:21:23,600
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, sir.

2391
02:21:23,799 --> 02:21:24,479
Speaker 5: It's a great question.

2392
02:21:24,680 --> 02:21:24,799
Speaker 6: Uh.

2393
02:21:27,840 --> 02:21:30,719
Speaker 5: I thought there was a video recently about this that

2394
02:21:30,879 --> 02:21:33,760
popped up that was gonna share it, but I don't

2395
02:21:34,399 --> 02:21:41,559
see it anyway. Yeah, look up Bradshaw and reciprocity. All right,

2396
02:21:41,559 --> 02:21:44,520
Thank you guys. A lot of great discussions today, overall,

2397
02:21:44,600 --> 02:21:48,200
pretty good comments from everybody. You can support my work

2398
02:21:48,280 --> 02:21:50,959
right here through the bitcoin wallet qr code if you

2399
02:21:50,959 --> 02:21:54,639
want to support me with bitcoin right there. Thank you guys,

2400
02:21:54,799 --> 02:21:59,319
and everybody, have a wonderful week. Remember that tomorrow, I

2401
02:21:59,440 --> 02:22:02,200
think tomorrow once, Yeah, we're going to be doing our

2402
02:22:02,520 --> 02:22:06,360
British spies that made the modern world, this excellent book

2403
02:22:06,479 --> 02:22:10,360
by French historian Galsmunier, and we'll be talking about all

2404
02:22:10,399 --> 02:22:13,799
these famous British spies and Napoleonic ara spies, which I

2405
02:22:14,159 --> 02:22:17,719
didn't know anything about Napoleonic era spies. These people were crazy, dude.

2406
02:22:17,719 --> 02:22:21,479
They were doing some wild stuff and it's crucial to

2407
02:22:21,600 --> 02:22:24,239
understanding how we got the modern world, how did the

2408
02:22:24,719 --> 02:22:26,280
Middle East come to be how it is. Well, you

2409
02:22:26,479 --> 02:22:29,239
can't understand that without understanding the Napoleonic era and the

2410
02:22:29,280 --> 02:22:33,239
British Empire. Napoleon wanted to take all of these areas

2411
02:22:33,319 --> 02:22:36,280
from the British Empire. He didn't succeed in doing that,

2412
02:22:36,479 --> 02:22:38,319
but this led to where we are today in the

2413
02:22:38,360 --> 02:22:43,399
modern world, with the carving up of much of the

2414
02:22:43,440 --> 02:22:45,559
Middle East and what's going on there today. So you

2415
02:22:45,639 --> 02:22:47,559
have to understand this background, and you need to know

2416
02:22:47,600 --> 02:22:51,239
who these people are. They're very famous spies and operatives,

2417
02:22:51,760 --> 02:22:55,799
and nobody talks about this. Nobody ever mentions these histories

2418
02:22:55,840 --> 02:22:58,239
except over here on my channel. And hope you guys

2419
02:22:58,280 --> 02:23:00,280
appreciate it. We'll be talking about that tomorrow in the

2420
02:23:00,360 --> 02:23:05,159
afternoon as we cover black Gold Spies and uh the T. E.

2421
02:23:05,319 --> 02:23:10,360
Lawrence type material or about have a good night, h