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<v Speaker 1>How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with

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<v Speaker 1>patron mug. Sign up now at patreon dot dot NetRocks

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<v Speaker 1>dot com. Hey, and welcome back to dot net rocks.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Carl Franklin and Amateurd Capbell, and Anthony Eden is

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<v Speaker 1>here with us. We'll include him in the intro bits.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm sure you're gonna like what he has to say.

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<v Speaker 1>But first, mister Campbell, how are you.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm good man. It's good to be home for a

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<v Speaker 2>few weeks. You know, it's hard to be unhappy. This

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<v Speaker 2>is a lovely place to be in the summertime. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm actually in Brooklyn, New York, visiting the fam. Nice

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<v Speaker 1>and going to a deli for lunch. Yeah, the grand

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<v Speaker 1>baby going to kats Is Delhi for lunch.

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<v Speaker 2>Nice. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Right after this, all about the pastromi, All about the pastrami.

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<v Speaker 1>This is episode two thousand and eight, So I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to start with the you know, significant stories of that year.

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<v Speaker 1>The big one is the global financial crisis.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I pulled together a timeline on this. Okay, you

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<v Speaker 2>want to hear it. Yeah, sure. So in January there's

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<v Speaker 2>a fifteen percent stock declining on the world market side,

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<v Speaker 2>which was weird because it seemed to come out of nowhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Later we'd find out that, you know, the US is

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<v Speaker 2>already in recession as of December two thousand and seven,

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<v Speaker 2>but at the time it was kind of a surprise.

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<v Speaker 2>And then March gold hits a thousand dollars an ounce

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<v Speaker 2>for the first time ever. And then we start getting

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<v Speaker 2>the recession calls, and Denmark is sort of the first

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<v Speaker 2>to cough up and go, I think we're actually in recession.

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<v Speaker 2>Olds Minor. The big news in the US before we

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<v Speaker 2>really get going on this thing is when suddenly the

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<v Speaker 2>US government, this is the Bush administration, takes control of

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<v Speaker 2>Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack because all of these subprime

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<v Speaker 2>mortgages are starting to implode. And then Goldman Sachs and

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<v Speaker 2>Morgan Stanley convert themselves. They stop being independent investment banks

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<v Speaker 2>and become bank holding companies. It's really a way of

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<v Speaker 2>limiting liability, but that really kicks off the storm because

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<v Speaker 2>then Lehman Brothers goes down, Washington Mutual goes down the

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<v Speaker 2>Dow and drops seven hundred and seventy seven points, the

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<v Speaker 2>largest single day point loss ever. And then by October

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<v Speaker 2>Bush signs the seven hundred billion dollar bailoup bill, the

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<v Speaker 2>UK kicks sixty four billion into UK banks to stop

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<v Speaker 2>their collapse. Then Bloody Friday, which is another ten percent

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<v Speaker 2>market decline worldwide, the IMF kicks a billion and a

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<v Speaker 2>half dollars over to Iceland to stop their banks from

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<v Speaker 2>going down. And then by November the Eurozone as a

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<v Speaker 2>whole is in recession for the first time since nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>ninety nine, and the Dawn it's its lowest level since

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<v Speaker 2>the nineties.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you want a couple of media plays that

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<v Speaker 1>really explain what happened, the big Short, of course, Phenomenal

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<v Speaker 1>Film is a great movie.

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<v Speaker 2>Very good, very good movie. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>And also this American Life podcast and PBS or NBR

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<v Speaker 1>show did an episode called the Giant Pool of Money,

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<v Speaker 1>which basically said, you know all these investors were putting pressure, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>they're always looking for places to put to hold money, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and so the subprime mortgages answered the call and so

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<v Speaker 1>it just everybody rushed in to buy these things which

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<v Speaker 1>were based on nothing, and hilarity ensued. Also, the guys

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<v Speaker 1>who did that episode of This American Life started another

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<v Speaker 1>podcast called Planet Money, and it's a really good one

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to just.

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<v Speaker 2>Was it out of the subprime crisis? Is that what

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<v Speaker 2>got me to do that show? That's really interesting?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that was the origin of it.

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<v Speaker 3>That's that's pretty awesome. It makes total sense, it does.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. Well. Also, you know what else starts this

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<v Speaker 2>year pretty much for exactly the same reason. What's that bitcoin? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's right. Yeah, and the fall in the fall of

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and eight is when the pseudonym Natoshi Nakamoto

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<v Speaker 2>publishes the bitcoin paper ticks that hole. Would it have

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<v Speaker 2>happened without this this subcrime, this sort of crisis of

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<v Speaker 2>banking as a whole, this you know, illusion of the

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<v Speaker 2>we're bursting, the illusion of how finance actually works. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's all in the same year.

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<v Speaker 1>Good question. Yeah. Also, in two thousand and eight, Barack

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<v Speaker 1>Obama is elected, Yeah, the first African American president of

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<v Speaker 1>the United States, and that I thought started a really

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<v Speaker 1>good recovery period for America, Russia and Georgia went to war.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the Russia of Georgian War, which self Osentia is

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<v Speaker 2>the area it's a quote unquote Breakeray region. Now, to

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<v Speaker 2>be clear, the Russians had been funding a set of

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<v Speaker 2>dissenters in Georgia for some time, that in Advocasia as well,

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<v Speaker 2>and this finally lit off into this little five day

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<v Speaker 2>skirmish so to speak. Before it Ceasfars negotiated through France,

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<v Speaker 2>although by the end of August Russia will just declare

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<v Speaker 2>them their own countries, which is ridiculous. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're wondering about the behavior of Ukraine, like this

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<v Speaker 2>had been going on for some time, and this was

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<v Speaker 2>an example of it because Georgia had become more and

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<v Speaker 2>more EU friendly, you know, they were leaning towards we

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<v Speaker 2>want those the same thing the Baltic States have gotten,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, more countries that this is the year that

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<v Speaker 2>like Malta joins the EU and so forth. So this

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<v Speaker 2>scared the snot out of Russia and this is how

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<v Speaker 2>they stop this. So you look at regions like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Southeast Centia, but also Transnistria and Moldova, they're all following

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<v Speaker 2>the same format, which is that Russia funds dissenters to

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<v Speaker 2>create breakaway states, no knowing that one of the NATO

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<v Speaker 2>rules is you can't have a border conflict before you

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<v Speaker 2>join NATO. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Also the Beijing Olympics two thousand and eight Summer Olympics

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<v Speaker 1>in Michael Felping, Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt were the darlings

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<v Speaker 1>of that of that contest in Mumbai, there were some

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<v Speaker 1>terrorist attacks that were pretty bad in November, more than

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred and sixty people killed. India and Pakistan obviously

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<v Speaker 1>have been at each other's throats for a while, but

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<v Speaker 1>now Iowa and Midwest flooding, severe flooding in the United States,

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<v Speaker 1>large portions of the US Midwest. Kosovo declared independence from

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<v Speaker 1>Serbia in February. Also interesting stuff going on there. In China,

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<v Speaker 1>there was an earthquake disaster, terrible Sichuan earthquake, seventy thousand

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<v Speaker 1>people or so and left millions homeless. The seventy thousand

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<v Speaker 1>people were killed, deadliest natural disaster of the decade. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the financial crisis prompted sharp increases in food

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<v Speaker 1>and fuel prices, and that was across many countries. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and concerns about inflation and global supply chains became major issues. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and of course Israel and Hamas that conflict escalated, culminating

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<v Speaker 1>in the launch of Operation cast Lead in December or

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<v Speaker 1>is it cast Lead, I can't remember, but yeah, so, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>bad year. A lot of economic woes that would later

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<v Speaker 1>continue arguably are still echoing today. Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Do you want some science news?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? What about science and space and tech?

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<v Speaker 2>September is when CERN powers up the large Hadron clouded

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<v Speaker 2>for the first time. They'll do their first collisions in

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand nine in the pursuit of the Higgs boson.

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<v Speaker 2>On the space side, we have some awesome activity in

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<v Speaker 2>deep space. This is when the Messenger spacecraft makes a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of fly bys of Mercury for the first time

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<v Speaker 2>since the seventies, both in January and in October. Out

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<v Speaker 2>at Saturn, Cassini is doing multiple flybys of both Titan

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<v Speaker 2>and in sedleists. And remember, and this is Rob Connery's

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<v Speaker 2>fault because he wrote a book around this accidentally, was

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<v Speaker 2>is really a data analytics book, The first Images of Encetalists.

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<v Speaker 2>They caught a cryo volcano just by luck. Nobody knew

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<v Speaker 2>that in setlist was active, it was considered an iceball.

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<v Speaker 2>It couldn't have been interesting, too small, and yet here

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<v Speaker 2>was this image of a cryovolcano in its first test photo.

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<v Speaker 2>They just got lucky and literally rewrote the Cassini mission

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<v Speaker 2>to focus on it setlists, and in two thousand and

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<v Speaker 2>eight they will fly within twenty five kilometers of the

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<v Speaker 2>surface of it. Settleist. Not the easiest fly by they'll do.

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<v Speaker 2>They'll do those, some of those later, but very very

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<v Speaker 2>close and really blew up with this idea of the

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<v Speaker 2>Goldilock zone for where life could exist on ound other bodies. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>they're steeped in heavy radiation, but underneath that ball of

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<v Speaker 2>ice there's liquid ocean that's salty and active and warm.

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<v Speaker 2>So exciting times, pretty amazing. On the International Space Station side,

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<v Speaker 2>we have four missions by the Shuttle February, March, May

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<v Speaker 2>and November, all building up different equipment. The Columbus module,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the European laboratory, the two Japanese modules, both

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<v Speaker 2>the pressurized section and the Kibo module, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>sort of porch for doing vacuum experiments, and plenty of resupply,

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<v Speaker 2>crew supply and things like that. India does their first

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<v Speaker 2>mission to the Moon, Chendra one. We'll launch in October

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<v Speaker 2>and reach the Moon in November, successfully putting making only

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<v Speaker 2>the fourth nation to have gone in orbit around the Moon,

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<v Speaker 2>after Russia or after US, Soviet Union and China. Then

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<v Speaker 2>there's SpaceX, the third and fourth and final flight of

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<v Speaker 2>Falcon one. Falcon the third flight in August, this flying

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<v Speaker 2>with the Merlin one C single engine, worked perfectly right

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<v Speaker 2>up until stage separation. There was enough residual energy coming

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<v Speaker 2>from the lower stage that at stage separation the boost

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<v Speaker 2>the first stage booster bumped back into the second stage,

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<v Speaker 2>damaging it so that it's not able to go into orbit.

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<v Speaker 2>SpaceX realizes is just a timing issue and literally just

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<v Speaker 2>delays the separation a bit longer, so that a month

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<v Speaker 2>later in September, they do a flight that actually fully

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<v Speaker 2>goes into orbit, the first time a commercial company will

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<v Speaker 2>put any kind of payload to orbit successfully. It was

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<v Speaker 2>the fourth flight. It's the point at which so supposedly

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<v Speaker 2>Elon was totally out of money. This was it or

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<v Speaker 2>they were going to fail. That being said, later that year,

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<v Speaker 2>in December, they'll get a billion and a half dollars

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<v Speaker 2>from NASA for the for the commercial resupply of the

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<v Speaker 2>space station and staff up to about five hundred employees.

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<v Speaker 2>They'll skip making Falcon five, which was a five engine

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<v Speaker 2>version of the Merlin, and go directly to the Falcon nine,

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<v Speaker 2>which will take a little while to get built. In

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<v Speaker 2>September the Rosetta mission, another deep space mission. This is

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<v Speaker 2>the asteroid mission they're going to. This is the year

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<v Speaker 2>that they make an eight hundred klimeter fly by of

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<v Speaker 2>the asteroid Steins, and then in twenty ten they'll reach Lutilla,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the as Main Belt asteroid for the first

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<v Speaker 2>time ever. All right in computing. In January, get our

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<v Speaker 2>first public draft of HTML five. Yeah, so you know

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<v Speaker 2>that's it's still still years away from being really implemented,

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<v Speaker 2>but this was, you know, everybody's waiting on this thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Essentially in February, Vista SP one and the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>commercial release of Vista. They had put out the initial

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<v Speaker 2>versions in November of two thousand and seven, but that

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<v Speaker 2>was only the enterprise edition. It was also the no

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<v Speaker 2>enterprise would touch an SP zero version of anything, so

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that was full of bugs was not a

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<v Speaker 2>big deal. But of course all the reviewers did install it,

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<v Speaker 2>find all the bugs and talk about them. So by

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<v Speaker 2>February nobody wants Vista. Server two thousand and eight's also

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<v Speaker 2>released the same time. This is also year we get

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<v Speaker 2>dot net Framework three five one, which fixes a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of WPF problems that were found because of the development

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<v Speaker 2>of silver Light. Yeah. So October the PDC two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and eight we get silver Light two, which is the

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<v Speaker 2>first version of Silverlight that supports the dot net framework.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, that's dot net Framework three, the interim version

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<v Speaker 2>that was made to pick up the fallout from Vista.

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<v Speaker 2>But a reminder that that was also a version that

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<v Speaker 2>ran a kind of the clr A runtime on the Mac,

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<v Speaker 2>although only the Intel version of the Mac raitional silver

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<v Speaker 2>Light one release, which didn't have any dot Net and

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<v Speaker 2>it ran on the power Pc version of the Mac,

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<v Speaker 2>which of course was also being based out. Remember the

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<v Speaker 2>PDC two thousand and eight, and I think you do

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<v Speaker 2>because we were there together. That was the one where

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<v Speaker 2>they had the community sessions where people could submit session

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<v Speaker 2>ideas and the community would vote on them, and the

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<v Speaker 2>number one most voted for session was Miguel Diakazan Mono

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<v Speaker 2>and Microsoft wasn't willing to do it, so they turned

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<v Speaker 2>pulled it out, turned it down, and Miguel came anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>just bought a ticket like a regular person. We just

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<v Speaker 2>followed around, were by a lot of people. Yeah, but

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<v Speaker 2>that was also that was an interesting time. That was

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<v Speaker 2>an interesting time indeed. And that's also the PDC where

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<v Speaker 2>Ray Ozzie announced Windows Azure. Because this is also the

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<v Speaker 2>year the Gates steps down even as chairman of Microsoft,

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<v Speaker 2>to go full time on the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

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<v Speaker 2>A couple other notable starts in two thousand and eight.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the year that Google Market stands up. You

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<v Speaker 2>now know it is Google Play, this is Android and

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<v Speaker 2>the response to the app store from Iphie for the

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<v Speaker 2>previous year. And also the year that GitHub starts with

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<v Speaker 2>its tagline social coding. You know, there have been plenty

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<v Speaker 2>of other code repositories out there, but this one had

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<v Speaker 2>the social media element as well. Right, Also the year

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<v Speaker 2>Airbnb is founded and the year that stack Overflow goes live.

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<v Speaker 1>Airbnb was founded by two guys from Rhode Island School

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<v Speaker 1>of Design, And when I went to Emmy's graduation there

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<v Speaker 1>because she gt my daughter's graduated with industrial design degree.

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<v Speaker 2>They were the.

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<v Speaker 1>Keynote speakers interesting. How cool is that?

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<v Speaker 2>That's pretty cool.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, one more thing I want to add. In two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and eight, I was approximately one hundred pounds heavier

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<v Speaker 1>than I am now, in which I lost that with

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<v Speaker 1>the ketogenic diet. Well back back then I called it

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<v Speaker 1>the beef and bourbon diet. I didn't really know the science,

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<v Speaker 1>but I knew it worked.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what I got.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess the time then for Betano framework role music awesome?

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<v Speaker 2>All right, man, what do you got?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay? So I think it was episode nineteen eighty five

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<v Speaker 1>or something like that where the Better Know a framework

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<v Speaker 1>was a tool from Simon Crop called dB to Mermaid,

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<v Speaker 1>which you could get a Mermaid chart of a just

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<v Speaker 1>by pointing it to a database. Well, now he's got

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<v Speaker 1>something a little more low level called Naiad Naiad which

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<v Speaker 1>renders Mermaid diagrams to SVG entirely in your browser, no

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<v Speaker 1>server round trip. Simon Crop, I don't know if you

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<v Speaker 1>know him, Anthony, but he's an Aussie and he's very

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<v Speaker 1>prolific and has built so many tools that he's become agular.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd better know a framework and this is just the latest.

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<v Speaker 4>So the name sounds failure, very very familiar.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's not the first time we've mentioned him on

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<v Speaker 2>Donna Rock's Goodness Knows, oh good No.

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<v Speaker 1>So anyway, check out Naiad if you're interested in Mermaid.

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<v Speaker 1>I love Mermaid, and you can make these beautiful flow charts. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is just another way to render.

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<v Speaker 2>That Niads were the nymphs of the fountains in Greek mythology.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, of course it is. That's awesome. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I was going to say, I was looking for how

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<v Speaker 3>to find this thing, and it's the best place to

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<v Speaker 3>go really is on GitHub.

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<v Speaker 4>It looks like, and search for it. Yeah, because it's

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<v Speaker 4>right there.

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<v Speaker 1>And that was the voice of Anthony Eden. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>what I got. Richard, who's talking to.

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<v Speaker 2>Us, Grady comment off a show two thousand and seven.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the one we did last week, the data centers

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<v Speaker 2>in space geek out. Yeah, because why we shouldn't have

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<v Speaker 2>a geek out in the middle of the middle of

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<v Speaker 2>the year. Why not, it's the longest day of the year.

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<v Speaker 2>What the heck have a geekout. Good fun in that talk.

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<v Speaker 2>But I had a comment from Matt who said, I

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<v Speaker 2>love your podcast as always, but I don't know how

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<v Speaker 2>much you came out one hundred square miles to get

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<v Speaker 2>one gig go out of solar power. That seems to

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<v Speaker 2>be off by a couple of orders of magnitude. She

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<v Speaker 2>abilitived that under two square miles. I haven't gone back

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<v Speaker 2>and listened to the show to think, did I say

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<v Speaker 2>that because that doesn't sound like I would say that

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<v Speaker 2>because it's not correct. Matt is right about two square

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<v Speaker 2>miles at twenty five percent efficiency should be sufficient. So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure exactly what I would say on the show. Typically,

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<v Speaker 2>on the ground you'd go more than that, just because

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<v Speaker 2>you have capacity factors, you know, clouds, things like that

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<v Speaker 2>that affect the amount of power you're going to get

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<v Speaker 2>from the solar panel in the first place. So I'm

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<v Speaker 2>thinking of square kilometers a little, but so five square

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<v Speaker 2>kilometers is a minimum, But often if you're going after

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<v Speaker 2>a gig gial, do ten go. We did at the

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<v Speaker 2>end of the show talk about building solar power and

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<v Speaker 2>geostation in orbit, which was a previous geek out. And

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<v Speaker 2>while you'll tend to use the more expensive solar panels

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<v Speaker 2>that are close to thirty percent yield, and you're probably

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<v Speaker 2>going to do concentration as well with mirrors and so

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<v Speaker 2>forth and rather than just to all solar panels, so

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<v Speaker 2>the math gets a little bit weirder. You also have

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<v Speaker 2>to deal with conversion losses converting power from the electrical

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<v Speaker 2>you get from your solo will take sales, and then

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<v Speaker 2>you turn them into microwaves to them beam them through

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<v Speaker 2>the atmosphere and you're going to get some attenuation there,

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<v Speaker 2>about fifteen percent, and then convert those microwaves back into electrical.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's a bunch of losses. So you'll probably lay

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<v Speaker 2>up much more on that. But no, one hundred square cometers,

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<v Speaker 2>that's crazy. It's still a lot of area. You don't

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<v Speaker 2>need that much. Sometimes we misspeak, yeah, and things happen

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<v Speaker 2>or things get misheard. I'm not emotional about it, so

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<v Speaker 2>like it's good to just get the numbers out there.

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<v Speaker 2>I just double checked all the numbers. That's what was

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<v Speaker 2>in my notes. Maybe I said it wrong, all right, Well,

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<v Speaker 2>so Matt, thank you so much your comment, and a

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<v Speaker 2>copy of music Coba is on its way to you.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you'd like a copy of music gobay right

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<v Speaker 2>a comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot com

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<v Speaker 2>or on the facebooks. We publish every show there. And

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<v Speaker 2>if you comment there and then reading the show. We'll

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<v Speaker 2>send you copy of music GOBA.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you don't want to wait for that, you

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<v Speaker 1>can just go to music to Code by dot net

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<v Speaker 1>and you can get it in MP three, wave and

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<v Speaker 1>flak formats. There's twenty two tracks. They're twenty five minutes

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<v Speaker 1>each and they're designed to keep you in a state

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<v Speaker 1>of flow while you're writing code. Many, many, many happy customers. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>let's bring on Anthony. Anthony Eden is the founder of

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<v Speaker 1>d N Simple and the proprietor of numerous open source projects.

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<v Speaker 1>He's also contributed to a wide variety of the open

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<v Speaker 1>source projects over the past twenty plus years as a

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<v Speaker 1>software developer using multiple languages including Java, Python, Ruby, Closure, Go,

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<v Speaker 1>and Erlang. Slacker Right, I think, yeah, ye, we have

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<v Speaker 1>a great history with Anthony, going back to a road

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<v Speaker 1>trip that where we.

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<v Speaker 2>Got a is such a hilarious story too.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a great story. I got to tell it every

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<v Speaker 1>time you come on. We got an email from somebody

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<v Speaker 1>at a company that I won't mention by name, but

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<v Speaker 1>it rhymes with slow Patty, and they wanted to know

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<v Speaker 1>if they could advertise on our show. And I said, hey, Richard,

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<v Speaker 1>these guys want to advertise, and Richard says, well, we.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't like that, but I think I said something a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of lines of it, but they suck.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but we do like DN Simple and we had

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<v Speaker 1>just been turned.

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<v Speaker 2>Well you said, you said you suggested that. You said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>who do we like? And I'm like, I think these

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<v Speaker 2>guys are awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Scott Hansoman. Scott Hansman introduced me to DAN Simple

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<v Speaker 1>and it was love at first click.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's a DNS management tool and domain management tool.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, and I think you again, you just went straight

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<v Speaker 2>at it. You found their email and you emailed them

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<v Speaker 2>and said this is what's happened. We think you should

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<v Speaker 2>be on our show. And as I recall, Anthony's response

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<v Speaker 2>was interesting, tell me more.

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<v Speaker 4>That's right, sounds right.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a different kind of pitch, wasn't it.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So we have had you on to talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>d N Simple apia and now talk about go Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and now you've got the DN Simple c l I

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<v Speaker 1>command line interface. So the floor is, sir, what is

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<v Speaker 1>this all about?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean it's it's so it's something that we've

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<v Speaker 3>tried off and on a couple times since the inception

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<v Speaker 3>of the and Simple. In fact, the very first sort

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<v Speaker 3>of public presentation I did of the and Simple was

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<v Speaker 3>at a Ruby comp where I did a five minute

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<v Speaker 3>lightning talk showing how to register a domain name from

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<v Speaker 3>the CLI, and that was with a Ruby CLI and

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<v Speaker 3>it really kind of kicked off sort.

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<v Speaker 4>Of the the.

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<v Speaker 3>Direction that we were going with Dan Simple, really wanting

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<v Speaker 3>to build tools for developers, for engineers who were who

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<v Speaker 3>liked to live in the command line, which would really

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of us do that regularly. There was kind

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<v Speaker 3>of a slowdown over the last few years, but within

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<v Speaker 3>the last twelve to eighteen months, CLIs have really started

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<v Speaker 3>coming back as being an important part of the toolkit

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<v Speaker 3>for all the different environments that you work with.

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<v Speaker 4>And we'll get to that.

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<v Speaker 3>I think everybody knows the answer as to why they're

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<v Speaker 3>really important. Sure, But so we went back and looked

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<v Speaker 3>again and we didn't have one for a little while.

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<v Speaker 3>We had tried. We had the one in Ruby, we

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<v Speaker 3>shut that down. We had one that we tried in ALICKXIR,

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<v Speaker 3>we shut that down. And this time around where you

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<v Speaker 3>did it and go and it kind of stuck more.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think.

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<v Speaker 3>Now we were at the point where we felt okay,

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<v Speaker 3>the APIs stable, the tooling around CLIs is becoming more

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<v Speaker 3>and more important for the work that folks are doing,

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<v Speaker 3>so it's time to put one together and launch it.

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<v Speaker 3>And thus we did. Just a few weeks back we started.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess it was over a month now that we

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<v Speaker 3>launched the first version of it, and then we've been

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<v Speaker 3>iterating on it fairly quickly to make it easier to use.

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<v Speaker 3>And it works just like any traditional CLI. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>you have all of the command line stuff that you

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<v Speaker 3>could do. You essentially start with D and simple as

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<v Speaker 3>the kicks off the CLI, and then you could do

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<v Speaker 3>a high level sort of context for the command saying

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<v Speaker 3>okay might be around domains or zones or things like that,

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<v Speaker 3>and then the particular action you might want to be

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<v Speaker 3>like list or create or what have you. Where it

419
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.440
<v Speaker 3>really starts to shine is when you start accessing it

420
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:11.039
<v Speaker 3>from agentic AI tools. Right, so for some like generative

421
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:14.079
<v Speaker 3>eye tools like claw for us, claud is the common

422
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:15.599
<v Speaker 3>thing that a lot of us use at the end

423
00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:21.000
<v Speaker 3>simple and so when you start doing that from within Claude,

424
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:25.559
<v Speaker 3>it opens up a lot of really interesting sort of

425
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:31.240
<v Speaker 3>user interactions that would otherwise have to be exposed either

426
00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:33.079
<v Speaker 3>at the API level, so in other words, sort of

427
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:37.440
<v Speaker 3>a higher level combine multiple commands together through the API

428
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.079
<v Speaker 3>or through the CLI or in a user interface. And

429
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:42.400
<v Speaker 3>so when you start to work with it from a

430
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:46.440
<v Speaker 3>more sort of textual interface like you can do from

431
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:50.960
<v Speaker 3>within Claude or whatever tool you might use, really the

432
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.920
<v Speaker 3>possibilities quickly open up and you start to look at

433
00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:57.200
<v Speaker 3>and say, wow, this is a very different and comfortable

434
00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:01.839
<v Speaker 3>way to work with the The dnsimble API is via

435
00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:02.400
<v Speaker 3>this CLI.

436
00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:05.400
<v Speaker 1>So I imagine you have an MCP interface then, so.

437
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:08.880
<v Speaker 3>Right now, essentially Claude can and most of the tools

438
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:11.039
<v Speaker 3>if there were running in your desktop, which is or

439
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.279
<v Speaker 3>in your in your local environment right now, can access

440
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:17.559
<v Speaker 3>any CLI tool as a tool. Okay, all right, So

441
00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:21.920
<v Speaker 3>a common one that we started using months ago was

442
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.160
<v Speaker 3>the gh tool from GitHub. So Claude can just access

443
00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:28.799
<v Speaker 3>GH straight from the command line as a normal tool.

444
00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:33.039
<v Speaker 3>It doesn't need an MCP interface for it. You can

445
00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:34.799
<v Speaker 3>just you can start working with it and it'll start

446
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:37.359
<v Speaker 3>constructing the commands that needs to construct out of the

447
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.200
<v Speaker 3>knowledge it can gain. The context it gains from usually

448
00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:43.359
<v Speaker 3>the help documentation or like the inline help for the

449
00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:45.799
<v Speaker 3>CLI and so we followed that same pattern with the

450
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:48.039
<v Speaker 3>and simple. It's literally just the CLI, so you can

451
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:50.640
<v Speaker 3>use it as a CLI, but the minute you're in Claude,

452
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.200
<v Speaker 3>if you authorize Claude to do certain actions with it,

453
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:57.519
<v Speaker 3>you can just do it with natural text from within

454
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.839
<v Speaker 3>claud and it'll still use the CLI interface. So you

455
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:04.880
<v Speaker 3>have sort of the limitations, which are good in many

456
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:08.440
<v Speaker 3>cases of what the CLI can do. Say, for example,

457
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.079
<v Speaker 3>you might want to protect yourself from doing crazy things,

458
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:12.920
<v Speaker 3>so you have Claude, you know, ask you before it

459
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:16.640
<v Speaker 3>executes any particular code, or if you're doing read items,

460
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:18.880
<v Speaker 3>you might do more complex things and say, just run

461
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:22.240
<v Speaker 3>through this patch without asking me. So yeah, it just

462
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:25.279
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't have an MCP interface. We do see that

463
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.920
<v Speaker 3>potentially we will have one, but that's a different use case.

464
00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:29.359
<v Speaker 3>I can we can talk a little more about that later.

465
00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:31.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a great it's a great question of how

466
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:35.640
<v Speaker 2>necessary that is at this point, right, Like lms are

467
00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:40.440
<v Speaker 2>pretting pretty good and interrogating CLIs anyway, Like what does

468
00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:41.680
<v Speaker 2>the MCP bringing equation?

469
00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:44.519
<v Speaker 3>I think it's your it's where you're doing that execution.

470
00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:47.039
<v Speaker 3>So the CLI is fine when you're dealing with a

471
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.640
<v Speaker 3>local environment. So if you're using claud code locally, it's

472
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:53.720
<v Speaker 3>not usable if you're using Claude from a web browser,

473
00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:56.599
<v Speaker 3>for example, And I think that's where it's that's where

474
00:25:56.599 --> 00:26:00.440
<v Speaker 3>the MCP SERVERCE starts to be more interesting. So for example, uh,

475
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:02.799
<v Speaker 3>it would be nice to be and I've done this

476
00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:04.480
<v Speaker 3>with other projects that I've worked on.

477
00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:05.200
<v Speaker 4>It's nice to be.

478
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:10.559
<v Speaker 3>In say claud dot AI, so in the web and

479
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.039
<v Speaker 3>be able to actually call into something through the MCP

480
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.319
<v Speaker 3>service that you've added in and that it becomes aware

481
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:17.200
<v Speaker 3>of all those commands.

482
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.079
<v Speaker 4>So it's just it's.

483
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:23.200
<v Speaker 3>Another way of exposing the API, and it gives enough

484
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:27.599
<v Speaker 3>information and context to those generative AI tools so that

485
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:30.839
<v Speaker 3>you can they can understand and understand they can properly

486
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:33.359
<v Speaker 3>formulate the commands that it needs to formulate in order

487
00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:34.599
<v Speaker 3>to do what it needs to do.

488
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:38.799
<v Speaker 2>Nice I just set it up via PowerShell, threw me

489
00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:41.400
<v Speaker 2>through my authentication strategy and pop back down in the

490
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:43.640
<v Speaker 2>session work that could charm pulled up a list of

491
00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:44.759
<v Speaker 2>my domains.

492
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:49.759
<v Speaker 3>And I've been so I've I obviously I use the

493
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:52.519
<v Speaker 3>insimble lot, right. I mean we're working in it every day,

494
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:56.000
<v Speaker 3>whether it's testing things or whether actually managing domains that

495
00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.559
<v Speaker 3>we manager. I'm managing my personal domains, and I can

496
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:02.279
<v Speaker 3>say that being able to once I started being able

497
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:08.519
<v Speaker 3>to do that within Claude, within my claud environment, it's

498
00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:12.160
<v Speaker 3>hard to go back now, right, because I describe the

499
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:13.640
<v Speaker 3>thing I want to do, and it can be a

500
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:15.839
<v Speaker 3>multi step thing. I'll give you a simple example. Right,

501
00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:17.920
<v Speaker 3>I want to register domain. Then I want to set

502
00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:20.480
<v Speaker 3>up an alias record so it points to my hosting

503
00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:24.559
<v Speaker 3>that's maybe Railway or flight out io or whatever. And

504
00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:28.039
<v Speaker 3>then I want a certificate that's automatically installed. And then

505
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:31.279
<v Speaker 3>I want to also set up the mail records because

506
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:33.640
<v Speaker 3>I'm using Google, so set everything up for me. And

507
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:37.599
<v Speaker 3>I can do that in a single in a single prompt,

508
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:41.839
<v Speaker 3>and it can execute that step by step. And if

509
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:44.000
<v Speaker 3>it fails along the way, if it tries to follow

510
00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:46.480
<v Speaker 3>a path that is incorrect, so it hallucinates an incorrect

511
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:48.880
<v Speaker 3>path or what have you, I can have it stop.

512
00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:51.799
<v Speaker 3>I can interrogate and see what it wants to have

513
00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:54.279
<v Speaker 3>it introgate me. I can do vice versa. Or I

514
00:27:54.279 --> 00:27:57.559
<v Speaker 3>can have it continue forward and have it like figure out, okay,

515
00:27:57.559 --> 00:27:59.079
<v Speaker 3>what's the next step I should have taken. Take a

516
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:02.920
<v Speaker 3>step back for and that would have taken a lot

517
00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:05.640
<v Speaker 3>of clicking through UI in order to do it, or

518
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:08.000
<v Speaker 3>a lot of individual CLI calls.

519
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:10.839
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't hate clicking through DN simple. I

520
00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:15.160
<v Speaker 2>do it routinely, not every day or anything, but routinely.

521
00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.559
<v Speaker 2>And it's obvious enough that I generate our problems except certificates.

522
00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Everything about certificate sucks.

523
00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:23.960
<v Speaker 4>It's you just want them to be done. There's still

524
00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:27.079
<v Speaker 4>still there's still some interactions there even in our interface

525
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:28.599
<v Speaker 4>that that I want to be better.

526
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:30.400
<v Speaker 2>Well, you don't have control over them, right.

527
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:32.599
<v Speaker 3>In a lot of cases you don't write because you

528
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:35.440
<v Speaker 3>have it's a long process. You have part Maybe you

529
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:36.960
<v Speaker 3>might have control over some things.

530
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:37.240
<v Speaker 2>You might not.

531
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:39.720
<v Speaker 3>You need to have the certifigate request. You might generate it,

532
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:42.599
<v Speaker 3>you might not. There's a lot of different paths that

533
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:44.400
<v Speaker 3>you can follow, and.

534
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:47.799
<v Speaker 2>So getting good any command line for certificates just for repeatability,

535
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:49.799
<v Speaker 2>so you just write it. I mean I leave notes

536
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:51.920
<v Speaker 2>for myself for certificates all the time that usually start

537
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:54.319
<v Speaker 2>off with hate dummy. If you've got here, it's because

538
00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:56.640
<v Speaker 2>you're screwing up. This is what you have to do.

539
00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:59.920
<v Speaker 1>So when I register a domain for an asure web,

540
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:07.640
<v Speaker 1>say I go to use the free managed certificates and Azure,

541
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:10.440
<v Speaker 1>and I've been bitten by that a couple of times.

542
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:13.440
<v Speaker 1>All of a sudden, the website isn't working and I

543
00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:18.119
<v Speaker 1>go there and the ip it, the underlying IP address

544
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.079
<v Speaker 1>has changed, certificate is not valid, and so I have

545
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:24.920
<v Speaker 1>to reach in those. But you know, you think you'd

546
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:26.079
<v Speaker 1>get an email or something.

547
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:29.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, But I mean, frankly, I think the direction we're

548
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:33.759
<v Speaker 3>let's say honestly acme and let's encrypt is the implementation

549
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:36.039
<v Speaker 3>of it kind of one. Yeah, And I think it's

550
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:38.519
<v Speaker 3>just there's a lot of cases where we still can't

551
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:42.759
<v Speaker 3>use that to automatically rotate the certificates every like they

552
00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:46.640
<v Speaker 3>should be. But the caab SO Certificate Authority Board that

553
00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:49.559
<v Speaker 3>manages all this stuff is reducing the amount of time

554
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:53.279
<v Speaker 3>any certificates allowed to live. We're already down under a year,

555
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:55.359
<v Speaker 3>and by I think within the next two years are

556
00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:58.519
<v Speaker 3>supposed to be required to be down to ninety days

557
00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:01.079
<v Speaker 3>for everybody, if I recall correct for certificates.

558
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:03.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've done this show on run ass radio. We

559
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:05.680
<v Speaker 2>should probably do it on rocks at some point. But

560
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:10.119
<v Speaker 2>the ultimate goes forty seven days. And this all comes

561
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:13.079
<v Speaker 2>back to the revocation systems just don't work, and so

562
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.640
<v Speaker 2>it's how do you get bad CERTs out of the

563
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.359
<v Speaker 2>system as quickly as possible? And so you know that

564
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:21.920
<v Speaker 2>sort of reality of you're going to need to renew

565
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.839
<v Speaker 2>your seerts roughly every month with a couple of weeks

566
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:29.680
<v Speaker 2>grace period. That's that's painful, right. You better automate that

567
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:30.960
<v Speaker 2>or you're going to lose your mind.

568
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:35.920
<v Speaker 3>It's I can't I can't see us going to a

569
00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:39.839
<v Speaker 3>place in two years from now still manually rotating certificates.

570
00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:41.119
<v Speaker 2>It just knows it.

571
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:43.640
<v Speaker 3>Doesn't make sense. But I think there's a lot of

572
00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:45.519
<v Speaker 3>businesses that are still stuck doing that because they're in

573
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:48.799
<v Speaker 3>legacy systems where they don't have the ability to do

574
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:49.559
<v Speaker 3>that automation.

575
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:52.039
<v Speaker 4>And that's that's challenging for them. I know that it's

576
00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:52.640
<v Speaker 4>still an issue.

577
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:55.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, and we're not talking about web servers. That's easy.

578
00:30:55.720 --> 00:31:01.119
<v Speaker 2>You know, try a firewall with a certain firewall API

579
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:01.960
<v Speaker 2>is different, Like it's a.

580
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:05.480
<v Speaker 4>Nightmare exactly if they have an API.

581
00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:06.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if there's any way to give it.

582
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:09.480
<v Speaker 3>All, you might have to unit might have to go

583
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:13.119
<v Speaker 3>into that firewall and connect out to grab the certificate to.

584
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:14.319
<v Speaker 4>Pull it in totally.

585
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:16.559
<v Speaker 3>So, Yeah, there's all kinds of craziness in the world

586
00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:17.759
<v Speaker 3>when you deal with legacy here.

587
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:21.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and and I'm gonna plug Todd Gardner's cirtkit right

588
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:24.160
<v Speaker 2>now as a tool for we should do this show

589
00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:26.480
<v Speaker 2>because I mean, it's certainly been a big deal for

590
00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.079
<v Speaker 2>SIS events, but everybody's going to be affected by anyway.

591
00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:29.839
<v Speaker 2>We should take a break.

592
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:31.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a good idea. We'll take a little break.

593
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:34.480
<v Speaker 1>We'll be right back after these very important messages don't

594
00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:34.880
<v Speaker 1>go away.

595
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:40.359
<v Speaker 5>Hey Carl here. You probably know text Control is a

596
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:44.960
<v Speaker 5>powerful library for document editing and PDF generation, but did

597
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:48.160
<v Speaker 5>you know they're also a strong supporter of the developer community.

598
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.000
<v Speaker 5>It's part of their mission to build and support a

599
00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:55.519
<v Speaker 5>strong developer community by being present, listening to users, and

600
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:59.279
<v Speaker 5>sharing knowledge at conferences across Europe and the United States.

601
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:02.799
<v Speaker 5>So if you're heading to a conference soon, check if

602
00:32:02.839 --> 00:32:05.880
<v Speaker 5>text Control will be there and stop by to say hi.

603
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:10.359
<v Speaker 5>You can find their full conference calendar at dubdubdub dot

604
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:13.680
<v Speaker 5>textcontrol dot com and make sure you thank them for

605
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:15.079
<v Speaker 5>supporting dot net rocks.

606
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.400
<v Speaker 2>And we're back. It's dot Netrocksamerchard Camp. Well, let's call Franklin. Hey,

607
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:25.119
<v Speaker 2>talking to our friend Anthony Eden do that for a

608
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:28.400
<v Speaker 2>show with twenty fourteen. We've been hanging out for a while.

609
00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:31.319
<v Speaker 3>It has it has been a journey so far, and

610
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.279
<v Speaker 3>I love the fact that we keep getting a chance

611
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:34.880
<v Speaker 3>to see each other.

612
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:37.079
<v Speaker 4>Well, you have time to time on the podcast. It's

613
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:37.559
<v Speaker 4>always good.

614
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:40.839
<v Speaker 2>Well, you wouldn't think DNS is that interesting, but it's

615
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:44.720
<v Speaker 2>one of those pieces of software that absolutely has to work.

616
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:47.240
<v Speaker 2>There's no tolerance for any failure of any kind at

617
00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:49.720
<v Speaker 2>any time because it is plumbing.

618
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:55.359
<v Speaker 1>And you can't get lost in a barrage of predatory

619
00:32:56.480 --> 00:32:59.680
<v Speaker 1>web pages that when you go to change something and

620
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:02.400
<v Speaker 1>they they just want to keep selling you things.

621
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:04.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, now I have no UI at all. It's just

622
00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:05.680
<v Speaker 2>a command line.

623
00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:08.240
<v Speaker 4>We've come full circle.

624
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:13.839
<v Speaker 1>I'm so very happy, very very happy.

625
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:17.519
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's it's really interesting. I've been in this business

626
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:19.400
<v Speaker 3>for a long time. I've been working in domain business

627
00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.960
<v Speaker 3>since nineteen ninety nine, and there are some things that

628
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.680
<v Speaker 3>stay the same, but each year something new happens. And

629
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:27.559
<v Speaker 3>I don't know if you all know, but the i

630
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.680
<v Speaker 3>CAN has announced this year for the new applications for

631
00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.480
<v Speaker 3>the next round of new top level domains are you

632
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:34.920
<v Speaker 3>aware of.

633
00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:37.799
<v Speaker 2>This, No, no, but I'll include in the show notes.

634
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:41.160
<v Speaker 2>But we had like dot show and there's all kinds

635
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:42.480
<v Speaker 2>of TLDs now.

636
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:43.319
<v Speaker 4>So it's happening again.

637
00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:47.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and so so there's going to be another rush

638
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:51.319
<v Speaker 3>for TLDs. The bad news is that the costs to

639
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:54.079
<v Speaker 3>the entry costs for one TLD is pretty much doubled

640
00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:58.839
<v Speaker 3>since last time, and I think last time was around

641
00:33:58.839 --> 00:34:00.319
<v Speaker 3>twenty fifteen actually.

642
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:00.839
<v Speaker 4>When they were doing this.

643
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:03.960
<v Speaker 1>Wow, I think the gold rush is over for those things.

644
00:34:04.039 --> 00:34:06.039
<v Speaker 1>I mean if you think about it, Yeah, you have

645
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:10.920
<v Speaker 1>your major corporations that want to have their public facing stuff,

646
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:13.639
<v Speaker 1>but you know, for most people who have websites, they

647
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:18.039
<v Speaker 1>just search. I mean, yeah, you don't need to have

648
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:19.719
<v Speaker 1>the crazy domains anymore.

649
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:21.159
<v Speaker 4>I mean it's they're fun.

650
00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:23.719
<v Speaker 3>They're fun when you can get one, and they can

651
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:25.480
<v Speaker 3>be they can really stand out.

652
00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:27.360
<v Speaker 4>But yeah, there's a lot of.

653
00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:29.679
<v Speaker 3>Choices, and I think one of the downsides is that

654
00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:32.599
<v Speaker 3>there are some that have have kind of been overtaken

655
00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:36.840
<v Speaker 3>by bad actors and various It's always the same challenge.

656
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, this would be the argument for opening more

657
00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:43.360
<v Speaker 2>top level domains is decreasing the scarcity. Yes, correct, make

658
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:47.800
<v Speaker 2>more available so that the prices go down and the

659
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:49.960
<v Speaker 2>backwaters can be properly backwatered.

660
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:53.800
<v Speaker 3>And it sounds great in the concept, but that every

661
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:56.639
<v Speaker 3>year the prices of TLDs keep getting going up.

662
00:34:56.679 --> 00:34:57.800
<v Speaker 4>They're not going down.

663
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:00.559
<v Speaker 3>So I can tell you that for the vast majority TLDs,

664
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:06.159
<v Speaker 3>we see every couple of years price increases, and so

665
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:10.280
<v Speaker 3>it's it's from from where we sit in the middle

666
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:15.039
<v Speaker 3>as the registrar, and honestly, it's it's a very frustrating experience, like.

667
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:17.760
<v Speaker 2>People must be routinely angry at you, even though you

668
00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:18.679
<v Speaker 2>don't set the prices.

669
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:21.079
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, they're angry at us, and we're like, well,

670
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:24.280
<v Speaker 3>we we have literally like these tiny little margins on

671
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:26.559
<v Speaker 3>top of it. The registries are getting almost all of

672
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:29.679
<v Speaker 3>it right, and we have no say really in the

673
00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:33.559
<v Speaker 3>cost of it because they set whatever price they're allowed

674
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:35.679
<v Speaker 3>to set based on their agreements with icons. And for

675
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:37.800
<v Speaker 3>the new TLDs it was basically a free for all.

676
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.360
<v Speaker 3>They're like, you set the prices whatever however you want.

677
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:40.639
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

678
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.159
<v Speaker 3>The only ones that people have ever put a stink

679
00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:45.239
<v Speaker 3>up on is of course dot com and dot net

680
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:48.599
<v Speaker 3>because the initial the originals the originals, and then when

681
00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:51.320
<v Speaker 3>dot org got bought by a private equity company or

682
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:53.800
<v Speaker 3>the company that runs dot org, and people were really

683
00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:55.719
<v Speaker 3>really scared that they were going to jack the prices.

684
00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:59.039
<v Speaker 3>And dot org has traditionally been for nonprofits and other pronunciations,

685
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:01.840
<v Speaker 3>and so there was a lot of fear, Oh, this

686
00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:04.360
<v Speaker 3>is going to be the end of a TLD specifically

687
00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:07.079
<v Speaker 3>for nonprofits. The good news is it has not really

688
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:09.960
<v Speaker 3>turned out that way. Dot org is still very fairly priced,

689
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:10.360
<v Speaker 3>I think.

690
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:13.519
<v Speaker 2>But the evil thing, Harry, is you know, you spend

691
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:18.239
<v Speaker 2>all that money promoting your domain name, and then the

692
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:20.760
<v Speaker 2>the TLD host hikes the price, Like, what are you

693
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:22.639
<v Speaker 2>going to do? Abandon it? You're stuck?

694
00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:25.519
<v Speaker 3>You are you are at the worst one is when

695
00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:27.880
<v Speaker 3>you get a really good name on one of the

696
00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:30.880
<v Speaker 3>new TLDs and then they come back a couple of

697
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:33.960
<v Speaker 3>years later and like, you know, that's a premium domain,

698
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.039
<v Speaker 3>so you're gonna have to pay a higher renewal fee

699
00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:37.440
<v Speaker 3>on that.

700
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:39.880
<v Speaker 4>That one is Wow. Has hit us a couple of times.

701
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:46.519
<v Speaker 1>I like, yeah, you're going to have to go ahead

702
00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:48.000
<v Speaker 1>and pay double on that.

703
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Because you've been successful, we will be punishing you exactly.

704
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:56.119
<v Speaker 3>It really feels that way sometimes, and I want the

705
00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:58.480
<v Speaker 3>industry to do well as a whole. But I think

706
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:03.280
<v Speaker 3>sometimes it's a little missile aligned with where the money

707
00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:05.760
<v Speaker 3>is going. I think it's going to an environment where

708
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.760
<v Speaker 3>innovation really isn't important, Like they don't they're not really

709
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:10.199
<v Speaker 3>needing to innovate too much.

710
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:13.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, operating a tld can't be frickin' rocket science, like

711
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:14.000
<v Speaker 2>holy Man.

712
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:17.199
<v Speaker 3>Only at the largest scale, Like it's what VeriSign does

713
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:19.119
<v Speaker 3>with the dot com and dot net registries.

714
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:20.679
<v Speaker 2>Okay, it's not trivial.

715
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:21.519
<v Speaker 4>That is not trivial.

716
00:37:21.639 --> 00:37:25.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, operating the routine name servers not trivial. But I

717
00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:28.360
<v Speaker 3>think that there there was a lot of consolidation at

718
00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:31.920
<v Speaker 3>the actual registry, so the operational registry level, and there

719
00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:34.320
<v Speaker 3>are not that many providers out there, and they've gotten

720
00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:39.320
<v Speaker 3>pretty good at it at operating TLDs, and so yeah,

721
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:42.239
<v Speaker 3>sometimes I feel that maybe the incentives are slightly misaligned.

722
00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:45.079
<v Speaker 3>But we're such a small player that there's not I mean,

723
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.599
<v Speaker 3>we are we are a member of the various we're

724
00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:50.920
<v Speaker 3>a member of I can, we go to meetings from

725
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:53.679
<v Speaker 3>time to time, but we're just such a small niche

726
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:56.920
<v Speaker 3>player that it's not it's hard for us to invest

727
00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:59.880
<v Speaker 3>a bunch to argue that we should be doing better things.

728
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:03.559
<v Speaker 2>Sure. So the last time this was done was twenty twelve,

729
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:08.960
<v Speaker 2>it was yeah, and it was twelve hundred new global TLDs. Yeah, so,

730
00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:11.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's a long time ago. It was I

731
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:14.599
<v Speaker 2>think about that, you know, fourteen years later, that's a

732
00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:17.199
<v Speaker 2>big change. So, yeah, this is probably going to be

733
00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:18.039
<v Speaker 2>very interesting.

734
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:21.119
<v Speaker 3>It will be another interesting one if I had if

735
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.679
<v Speaker 3>I had a massive pile of cash, I would probably

736
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:25.320
<v Speaker 3>go and try to apply for some of them.

737
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:28.280
<v Speaker 4>But they are rich. They are not cheaping, I bet

738
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:28.719
<v Speaker 4>at all.

739
00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:34.559
<v Speaker 3>And if you if you get to the end of

740
00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:38.320
<v Speaker 3>the process and you have two or more organizations that

741
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:41.960
<v Speaker 3>want the same tld you essentially didn't enter into a bidding.

742
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Phase bidding war.

743
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:45.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and then who knows how high the price can go.

744
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:48.079
<v Speaker 3>I mean the last time around, the dot app which

745
00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:49.800
<v Speaker 3>was one that I think Google and some others were

746
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:51.119
<v Speaker 3>fighting over, hit ten million.

747
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:51.840
<v Speaker 4>I think for it.

748
00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. No, if one of the hyperscalers is in the bidding,

749
00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:57.559
<v Speaker 2>you should bow out, like what are you thinking?

750
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:00.639
<v Speaker 3>Well, except that if you stick it, stick around long

751
00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:03.360
<v Speaker 3>enough and you don't win, you get the second bidder

752
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:04.719
<v Speaker 3>apparently gets.

753
00:39:04.519 --> 00:39:05.920
<v Speaker 4>A portion of the funds.

754
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:06.920
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

755
00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:10.320
<v Speaker 3>So that was actually used last time around as a

756
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:14.440
<v Speaker 3>way of financing for what I understand really inside baseball here,

757
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:17.000
<v Speaker 3>but apparently one of the companies that used to be

758
00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:19.760
<v Speaker 3>known as Donuts, I believe, if I heard correctly, with

759
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:23.400
<v Speaker 3>finance some of their other TLDs by trying to be

760
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:26.239
<v Speaker 3>competitive up to the last moment but not winning the

761
00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:28.960
<v Speaker 3>bidding for some of those TLDs, and so they were

762
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:32.159
<v Speaker 3>able to actually make a profit on something they didn't

763
00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:34.519
<v Speaker 3>end up getting and then use that to fund some

764
00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:35.360
<v Speaker 3>of the other TLDs.

765
00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:36.119
<v Speaker 2>They got crazy.

766
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:39.440
<v Speaker 1>I wanted just to take a minute to acknowledge how

767
00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:41.719
<v Speaker 1>awesome Dan Simple is and we don't you know, this

768
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:45.519
<v Speaker 1>isn't an infomercial, but just the joy that I've had

769
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:49.000
<v Speaker 1>using it, especially compared to the other things that we

770
00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:52.960
<v Speaker 1>were using. And I tell the story often of how

771
00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:55.599
<v Speaker 1>I was in a security line in the airport and

772
00:39:55.639 --> 00:40:00.519
<v Speaker 1>setting up mail records for one of my domains, you know,

773
00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:03.239
<v Speaker 1>with one hand on my phone. Yeah, and it was

774
00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:07.119
<v Speaker 1>it was just so easy and effortless. And it looks

775
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:10.719
<v Speaker 1>good too. It's like go on the back end bootstrap

776
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:11.880
<v Speaker 1>on the front, right.

777
00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:14.480
<v Speaker 3>It's actually so our back end is rails for most

778
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.239
<v Speaker 3>of the web app. But the yeah, it used to

779
00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:19.800
<v Speaker 3>be bootstrapped. Now I think we're swapping over to Tailwind

780
00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:22.280
<v Speaker 3>because I don't think bootstraps maintained. But the look and

781
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:23.880
<v Speaker 3>feel is kind of the same there. And I do

782
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:27.320
<v Speaker 3>appreciate that you enjoy using it. From time to time,

783
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.480
<v Speaker 3>I have to go use other providers to if I'm

784
00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:34.679
<v Speaker 3>trying to help somebody try to understand something, and sometimes

785
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:37.000
<v Speaker 3>it hurts pretty bad. Yeah, it really does. It's just

786
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:39.920
<v Speaker 3>so I appreciate the kind words, Carl, and I'm glad

787
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:41.440
<v Speaker 3>that you've been a customer for so long, and I

788
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:43.000
<v Speaker 3>hope that we can keep you for much longer as

789
00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:43.400
<v Speaker 3>well well.

790
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:45.320
<v Speaker 1>And I hope we can impress on our listeners too

791
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:48.440
<v Speaker 1>that it's it's really a good thing to switch.

792
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:50.920
<v Speaker 3>If you're already I do have something special. I have

793
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.159
<v Speaker 3>something special this time around. I actually have and we

794
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:55.559
<v Speaker 3>can put this in the show notes after. I have

795
00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:59.159
<v Speaker 3>a URL for you, specifically for dot net rocks that

796
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:03.639
<v Speaker 3>will give folks a ten dollars credit towards anything towards

797
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:06.920
<v Speaker 3>a domain purchase, towards their subscription and what have you. Wow,

798
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:09.079
<v Speaker 3>if they use that, so I'm going to I'll give

799
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:12.760
<v Speaker 3>that to you via a messaging or what have you

800
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:14.360
<v Speaker 3>via the email and you can pop that on there.

801
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:14.639
<v Speaker 2>Is it?

802
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Is it readable? Can you just say it?

803
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:17.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

804
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:21.639
<v Speaker 4>I mean it's it's slash oh slash dot net rocks. Okay,

805
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:22.480
<v Speaker 4>that's pretty much it.

806
00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:26.239
<v Speaker 3>Again, it's going to be really easy to see from

807
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:28.239
<v Speaker 3>the sense, people should be looking at the show notes

808
00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:29.480
<v Speaker 3>at this point, shouldn't.

809
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:30.000
<v Speaker 1>They That should yeah?

810
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:32.880
<v Speaker 4>Oh yea, absolutely that they are that engaged. They should

811
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:35.440
<v Speaker 4>be looking at us. So we'll hide it in there.

812
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:37.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we'll put them in the show notes for sure.

813
00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:40.400
<v Speaker 2>Very good. That's awesome. So okay, I, when you see

814
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:42.159
<v Speaker 2>l I from a straight pointed point of view, just

815
00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:44.480
<v Speaker 2>straight commands be able to do that. But then the

816
00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:47.119
<v Speaker 2>LM's come to play. So now you're just having conversations

817
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:51.559
<v Speaker 2>about making adjustments to DNS entries, doing domain registration, renewing,

818
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:53.880
<v Speaker 2>replacing certificates.

819
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:54.199
<v Speaker 4>Asking questions.

820
00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:56.079
<v Speaker 3>So one of the first uses I did for was

821
00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:58.639
<v Speaker 3>I said, look at all my domains and give me

822
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:00.320
<v Speaker 3>a list of the ones that will be expired in

823
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:01.360
<v Speaker 3>the next ninety days.

824
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:04.679
<v Speaker 2>Yep, great, and then and it query it is.

825
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:07.920
<v Speaker 3>It's a very straightforward one, and I and it's what

826
00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:10.159
<v Speaker 3>it was interesting was that it gave me the list

827
00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:12.559
<v Speaker 3>and it says all of these are actually set up

828
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:15.039
<v Speaker 3>to automatically renew. Right, So I said everything to auto

829
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:17.000
<v Speaker 3>renew on mine. But if I would have missed one,

830
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:19.880
<v Speaker 3>it would have actually called it out at and in

831
00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:22.280
<v Speaker 3>fact one yeah well no, yeah, well, I mean the

832
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:24.159
<v Speaker 3>thing is the a P I will return this.

833
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:24.880
<v Speaker 4>And that's one of the.

834
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:28.840
<v Speaker 3>Things about I think that's an important part of using

835
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:32.480
<v Speaker 3>a cl I plus the l M is because the

836
00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:37.079
<v Speaker 3>CLI provides boundaries, it provides clear limitations.

837
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:39.559
<v Speaker 2>So when you ask for it, well provides a mechanism

838
00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:43.000
<v Speaker 2>of accuracy. Exactly there is a command exactly it is,

839
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:46.159
<v Speaker 2>It is not going to be. It's it's definitely definitive.

840
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:47.880
<v Speaker 2>You you asked for a list, You're going to get

841
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:49.519
<v Speaker 2>back a list, sure, and that list is going to

842
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:51.800
<v Speaker 2>have a certain set of fields. So yeah, far more

843
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:53.880
<v Speaker 2>subtle thing would be and that this is a question

844
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:57.360
<v Speaker 2>I should set up and ask is what's misconfigured on

845
00:42:57.400 --> 00:42:58.280
<v Speaker 2>any of my domains.

846
00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:00.679
<v Speaker 3>That's a that's a great question. And then something that

847
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:03.239
<v Speaker 3>you could probably it would probably start asking you questions

848
00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:07.000
<v Speaker 3>about well, what are you using, Like common areas that

849
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:08.719
<v Speaker 3>are misconfigured.

850
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:08.880
<v Speaker 4>Might be email.

851
00:43:09.400 --> 00:43:11.519
<v Speaker 3>I looked and I found that some of your domains

852
00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:15.320
<v Speaker 3>have no email set up? Is that intentional? So these

853
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:18.559
<v Speaker 3>are actually and I think email is one of those

854
00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:22.320
<v Speaker 3>areas that often frustrates people, so that the part where

855
00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:24.639
<v Speaker 3>email crosses of the boundaries into DNS, you have to

856
00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:27.039
<v Speaker 3>have the right DNS records set up to make sure

857
00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:29.840
<v Speaker 3>deliverability works, to make sure that you're not getting sent

858
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:31.880
<v Speaker 3>to spam and what have you. And I think people

859
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:33.880
<v Speaker 3>struggle with that so much so that there are companies

860
00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:36.360
<v Speaker 3>that are built to just deal with that problem. But

861
00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:38.519
<v Speaker 3>there's nothing that stops you from trying it with an

862
00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:40.719
<v Speaker 3>LLLM right checking what says.

863
00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:42.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, how often do you have a domain that actually

864
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:45.119
<v Speaker 2>has a text field that is a token for a

865
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:48.559
<v Speaker 2>service somewhere? And I wonder if the tool would be

866
00:43:48.679 --> 00:43:51.559
<v Speaker 2>clever enough. I notice the language I'm using here. I'm

867
00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:53.960
<v Speaker 2>calling an LLM a tool for a reason. Yes, it's

868
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.440
<v Speaker 2>a tool at the best of times. I meaning a

869
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.079
<v Speaker 2>tool both as a constructive way and a derogatory way.

870
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:01.119
<v Speaker 2>Yes it is, let's be very clear.

871
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:05.400
<v Speaker 6>Uh, And the ll M comes back, what'd you call me? Yeah,

872
00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:12.119
<v Speaker 6>it's like, go ahead, be resentful tool. It would acknowledge tool.

873
00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:15.079
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it acknowledge that it is a tool both for

874
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:18.400
<v Speaker 3>a good and bad there's look, it's the it's it's

875
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:20.800
<v Speaker 3>the nature of the beasts. These things are they're they're

876
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:24.679
<v Speaker 3>not there. They're they'll never be perfect because they're essentially

877
00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:28.119
<v Speaker 3>just a statistic likelihood that a set of tokens are

878
00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:30.119
<v Speaker 3>going to be aligned in a certain way based on

879
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:33.400
<v Speaker 3>a very large amount of data. Uh so there will

880
00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:37.159
<v Speaker 3>be inevitable failures. It's it's not and that's why it's

881
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:40.800
<v Speaker 3>not intelligence, right, it's it's that's it's actually a poor

882
00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:44.599
<v Speaker 3>misnomer for it. Yeah, it's a neat tool. Large language

883
00:44:44.599 --> 00:44:47.639
<v Speaker 3>models are very neat tools. But there's they're not intelligent.

884
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:50.079
<v Speaker 2>Very clever tools. Well that's it again. Getting rid of

885
00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:54.599
<v Speaker 2>the anthemomorphanization is about reminding yourself it's just software, and

886
00:44:54.679 --> 00:44:55.280
<v Speaker 2>software has.

887
00:44:55.159 --> 00:44:56.679
<v Speaker 4>Bucked absolutely absolutely.

888
00:44:56.719 --> 00:44:59.320
<v Speaker 2>But I look at through like all the text fields

889
00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:01.400
<v Speaker 2>in some of my DNS entries and like, what the

890
00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:03.239
<v Speaker 2>heck was I thinking there? And I bet you the

891
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:05.920
<v Speaker 2>tool do a better job of identifying them and going

892
00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:09.760
<v Speaker 2>I think this was for that and help you track

893
00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:11.320
<v Speaker 2>down some of the stuff. It's like, do I need

894
00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:11.880
<v Speaker 2>these things though?

895
00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:12.159
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

896
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:14.840
<v Speaker 3>Just remember if if it hallucinates what it was for

897
00:45:14.920 --> 00:45:16.960
<v Speaker 3>and then you go and just delete it willy nilly,

898
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:17.480
<v Speaker 3>that's on you.

899
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:21.039
<v Speaker 2>But in the end, I, you know, I like that

900
00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:23.400
<v Speaker 2>I am responsible for my own activities. If I take

901
00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:25.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, if I took bad advice from a search engine,

902
00:45:26.039 --> 00:45:27.880
<v Speaker 2>it's on me too. Yeah.

903
00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:30.400
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, one of the one quick thing that I wanted

904
00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:32.519
<v Speaker 3>to point out. I think the neat thing about having

905
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:36.199
<v Speaker 3>the CLI available is there certain times you don't want

906
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:38.519
<v Speaker 3>to use the LMS so for example, or you don't

907
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:40.559
<v Speaker 3>want to use any other tool other than direct to CLI,

908
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:43.519
<v Speaker 3>let's say, and this maybe isn't as critical with the

909
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:46.119
<v Speaker 3>and simple, but let's say you're using a tool where

910
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:48.599
<v Speaker 3>you have to set credentials or you have to put

911
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:52.280
<v Speaker 3>secrets in You never want to do that through if

912
00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:54.519
<v Speaker 3>they're important secrets that you don't want to do that

913
00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:56.199
<v Speaker 3>through any other tool, and you want to go as

914
00:45:56.239 --> 00:45:57.159
<v Speaker 3>direct as possible.

915
00:45:57.679 --> 00:45:59.039
<v Speaker 4>And the CLI is.

916
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:01.840
<v Speaker 3>Nice because you can eventually formulate up a very clear

917
00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:03.679
<v Speaker 3>plan for how to do that without needing to have

918
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:07.280
<v Speaker 3>any any context or anything else, and you can execute

919
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:09.039
<v Speaker 3>it and nothing will have a history of it except

920
00:46:09.079 --> 00:46:11.320
<v Speaker 3>your command line, which you can clear out so I

921
00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:13.800
<v Speaker 3>think that there's that's important. It's nice to have the

922
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:17.320
<v Speaker 3>underlying tool, and it's it's a distinction between an MCP

923
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:19.800
<v Speaker 3>ser you couldn't do that same thing because the MCP

924
00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:22.000
<v Speaker 3>is designed to work in the context of LM. So

925
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.079
<v Speaker 3>it's it's another maybe interesting little thing to keep aware

926
00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:28.239
<v Speaker 3>of if you're working with these types of tools.

927
00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:31.199
<v Speaker 2>Should I if I'm going to go down this path,

928
00:46:31.239 --> 00:46:33.079
<v Speaker 2>and I'm very tempted to go down this path, I

929
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:34.800
<v Speaker 2>think I will go down this path. Can I set

930
00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:37.639
<v Speaker 2>up a separate account to get access to my domains

931
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:40.199
<v Speaker 2>but not have edit privileges.

932
00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:41.880
<v Speaker 3>You don't need to do that. You just need to

933
00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:44.320
<v Speaker 3>create a read token. So you create a token and

934
00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:48.079
<v Speaker 3>you just give it read only access. Yeah, and then

935
00:46:48.280 --> 00:46:50.000
<v Speaker 3>and you'll have you can do it for all of

936
00:46:50.039 --> 00:46:51.519
<v Speaker 3>your domains. You can do it for a subset of

937
00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:53.320
<v Speaker 3>your domains if you want to play you know, it's.

938
00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:53.880
<v Speaker 2>It's up to you.

939
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:57.639
<v Speaker 3>And then you just use that particular access token in

940
00:46:57.639 --> 00:46:58.559
<v Speaker 3>that particular case.

941
00:46:58.679 --> 00:46:59.480
<v Speaker 2>Nice for this for.

942
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:02.480
<v Speaker 3>The clib is, even though the clia lets you authenticate

943
00:47:02.599 --> 00:47:05.280
<v Speaker 3>with a AUTH which essentially gives it a token that

944
00:47:05.320 --> 00:47:08.239
<v Speaker 3>can do almost anything you don't, you can also set

945
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:10.920
<v Speaker 3>a token like do you could say, like I want

946
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:13.639
<v Speaker 3>to log in with this particular token in this for

947
00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:14.159
<v Speaker 3>this account.

948
00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:16.679
<v Speaker 2>So, because what's better in this world than an ll IM,

949
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:18.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, coming back to you saying you're right. I

950
00:47:18.760 --> 00:47:20.440
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't have deleted all you accounts. That's on you.

951
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:25.000
<v Speaker 4>You're right, and this has happened. This has happened.

952
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:27.320
<v Speaker 3>There's a there's a strong argument that if you're working

953
00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:30.519
<v Speaker 3>in a production environment, you want to slightly control the

954
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:33.679
<v Speaker 3>token that you're using to the least amount of access

955
00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:35.079
<v Speaker 3>that it needs to get its shop done.

956
00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:38.280
<v Speaker 2>Right. Yep, very very true and good to good your.

957
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:41.519
<v Speaker 1>Mind, sort of like ocom's razor in reverse. Yeah, do

958
00:47:41.599 --> 00:47:42.880
<v Speaker 1>the simplest thing that works.

959
00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:45.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I would also I would also recommend that the

960
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:47.159
<v Speaker 3>other thing is if if you really, again you're working

961
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:50.280
<v Speaker 3>in production environments, another way to do this is you

962
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:54.559
<v Speaker 3>use the l M to create configuration is code. So

963
00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:57.719
<v Speaker 3>it might be something like terraform or or whatever it

964
00:47:57.800 --> 00:48:01.840
<v Speaker 3>might be that you use ants blacks, whatever answell, doesn't matter,

965
00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:05.480
<v Speaker 3>and then that way you can verify it with a

966
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:07.519
<v Speaker 3>human that it's doing everything you need to end you

967
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:10.440
<v Speaker 3>have a history of it in your your get history

968
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:13.159
<v Speaker 3>that this change has made it for the by this

969
00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:15.800
<v Speaker 3>person for these reasons. So there's a whole nother path

970
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:18.480
<v Speaker 3>down there. You don't have to go directly through CLI.

971
00:48:18.599 --> 00:48:20.719
<v Speaker 3>There's certain cases where it works really well, especially when

972
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:23.639
<v Speaker 3>you're prototyping quickly, and certain cases where you probably don't

973
00:48:23.719 --> 00:48:25.880
<v Speaker 3>undo it, especially if you're working in a production environment

974
00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:28.119
<v Speaker 3>that maybe hundreds of thousands or millions of people are using.

975
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:28.400
<v Speaker 2>Right.

976
00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:31.320
<v Speaker 3>Right, So it's it's still even in this day and age,

977
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:34.920
<v Speaker 3>you can't delegate thinking to your tools because there are

978
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:35.440
<v Speaker 3>just tools.

979
00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:35.639
<v Speaker 7>You know.

980
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:37.920
<v Speaker 3>I don't tell my hammer how to hammer yep, right like,

981
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:40.199
<v Speaker 3>I still have to know how to use that tool,

982
00:48:40.239 --> 00:48:42.199
<v Speaker 3>and it's important for folks that are doing this to

983
00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:43.000
<v Speaker 3>keep that in mind.

984
00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:46.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, at the same time, the ability to tell it, okay,

985
00:48:46.519 --> 00:48:48.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, make these changes is very tempting. I would

986
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:51.360
<v Speaker 2>still go down the path of Okay, what changes do

987
00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:54.440
<v Speaker 2>I need to make? Give me the list, because it's

988
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:56.159
<v Speaker 2>not that much work. I mean, if I was doing

989
00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:58.119
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of them, fine, I'll do smart. Then I would

990
00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:01.039
<v Speaker 2>even ask and it suggest to the tool, will or

991
00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:04.400
<v Speaker 2>tell the tool give me the commands, give me the

992
00:49:04.760 --> 00:49:09.480
<v Speaker 2>commands I've done as well, exactly so that you're still

993
00:49:09.559 --> 00:49:14.239
<v Speaker 2>running the script. Just not giving right privileges is a

994
00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:14.920
<v Speaker 2>good idea.

995
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:17.239
<v Speaker 3>I'm very curious for the two of you. Are you

996
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:19.960
<v Speaker 3>using these Are you using Jenny I tools on a

997
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:20.719
<v Speaker 3>regular basis?

998
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:25.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I am, but not yet for DNS. Maybe tomorrow

999
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:25.920
<v Speaker 1>I will be.

1000
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:28.960
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting to think about it from from an administrator's perspective,

1001
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:30.039
<v Speaker 2>and I could do. It's one thing to do it

1002
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:32.239
<v Speaker 2>for dev. It's another thing to do it for data

1003
00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:36.039
<v Speaker 2>retrieval and then organizing thoughts and things. It's another thing

1004
00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:40.400
<v Speaker 2>again to start doing your administrative stuff. I routinely dip

1005
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:44.639
<v Speaker 2>into these tools to diagnose network problems and machine behavior

1006
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:47.840
<v Speaker 2>problems and things like that, and always to okay, what's

1007
00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:49.039
<v Speaker 2>the commands to correct?

1008
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:52.280
<v Speaker 1>We were just talking about how codex seems to be

1009
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:57.079
<v Speaker 1>a really good tool for diagnosing system problems. It can

1010
00:49:57.119 --> 00:50:00.360
<v Speaker 1>read logs, you know, it can figure things out that

1011
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:05.000
<v Speaker 1>are misconfigured firewalls, something that I went through with Mark

1012
00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:08.119
<v Speaker 1>Miller just a few days ago, and it did really

1013
00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:08.920
<v Speaker 1>did a good job.

1014
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:12.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, the terrible error message that most software spits

1015
00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:15.960
<v Speaker 2>out is trivial for an LLM to parse, and it's

1016
00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:18.440
<v Speaker 2>main in the butt for humans to party It's one

1017
00:50:18.440 --> 00:50:21.280
<v Speaker 2>of those moments like I look at the error message

1018
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:24.440
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, what the pace the whole thing into

1019
00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:27.920
<v Speaker 2>chatchip cold and you go, what's this and it goes, Oh,

1020
00:50:28.039 --> 00:50:30.760
<v Speaker 2>you're working on this product with these things, and you

1021
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:34.079
<v Speaker 2>got this error. I suggest this and like, jam.

1022
00:50:33.800 --> 00:50:36.480
<v Speaker 3>As long as it doesn't hallucinate something that doesn't actually exist,

1023
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:37.880
<v Speaker 3>because that has I've caught the.

1024
00:50:37.880 --> 00:50:39.400
<v Speaker 4>Tools to do that.

1025
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:42.000
<v Speaker 3>And it's hilarious when it happens, because it will be

1026
00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:45.800
<v Speaker 3>certain right, this thing exists, like this API exists.

1027
00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:48.119
<v Speaker 4>I'm just gonna but for some reason I can't call it.

1028
00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:51.119
<v Speaker 2>And in the moment you indicate that does not exist,

1029
00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:52.039
<v Speaker 2>you're like, you're.

1030
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:55.920
<v Speaker 1>Right, yeah, and then yeah, you actually it yeah, and

1031
00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:57.559
<v Speaker 1>it says you're right.

1032
00:50:58.199 --> 00:51:00.800
<v Speaker 3>I'm trying to I'm trying to all the tools a

1033
00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:08.519
<v Speaker 3>little bit more, not to use flattery, language.

1034
00:51:06.280 --> 00:51:08.360
<v Speaker 2>Of the certainty, all of the you know, all of

1035
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:11.360
<v Speaker 2>these things are lies. I need to.

1036
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:16.079
<v Speaker 3>But but I can't deny that it does. It does,

1037
00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:20.000
<v Speaker 3>and it's it's a dilemma because the tooling provides, UH

1038
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:25.800
<v Speaker 3>can provide some really interesting productivity boosts for us to

1039
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:27.559
<v Speaker 3>think at a higher level of how to build things,

1040
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:30.519
<v Speaker 3>how to create things software wise, how to fix things,

1041
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:35.559
<v Speaker 3>how to diagnose problems. On the other hand, that's a lot.

1042
00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:38.159
<v Speaker 3>We're depending a lot on a very small group of

1043
00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:41.119
<v Speaker 3>companies that are putting a ton of money into it.

1044
00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:44.039
<v Speaker 3>And I'm really worried that other shoe is going to drop.

1045
00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:45.880
<v Speaker 2>Here a ton of other people's money.

1046
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:48.880
<v Speaker 3>Correct, well, a ton of I mean, yes, right now,

1047
00:51:48.920 --> 00:51:51.000
<v Speaker 3>we're not putting a ton of money in because it's

1048
00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:52.920
<v Speaker 3>being subsidized by investment dollars.

1049
00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:55.760
<v Speaker 2>They what are real cost is going to be on

1050
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:56.039
<v Speaker 2>this thing?

1051
00:51:56.440 --> 00:51:56.599
<v Speaker 4>Yes?

1052
00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:00.039
<v Speaker 3>And and and will there be an incentive when the

1053
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:04.199
<v Speaker 3>real costs come out to focus on cost improvements because

1054
00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:08.599
<v Speaker 3>they are operating it just they're just burning cash right now.

1055
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:11.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, it seems like the beginning of this year was

1056
00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:13.719
<v Speaker 2>the beginning of the you need to optimize, and clearly

1057
00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:16.800
<v Speaker 2>prices are going up, the free stuff starting to diminish,

1058
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:20.519
<v Speaker 2>like you're seeing the shaping of or getting to reality.

1059
00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:22.679
<v Speaker 2>I want to think it's a logical sequence. I just

1060
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:26.440
<v Speaker 2>think that's very unlikely. We're just you know, they they

1061
00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:29.440
<v Speaker 2>investors have been spooked enough that now they have to

1062
00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:32.320
<v Speaker 2>make the correct gestures to keep the investors involved. But

1063
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:36.400
<v Speaker 2>these are how bubbles deflate hopefully, and you know, I

1064
00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:40.079
<v Speaker 2>would be happy if that happened gracefully. Me too. That

1065
00:52:40.119 --> 00:52:41.079
<v Speaker 2>seems very unlikely.

1066
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:43.239
<v Speaker 4>Me too, seem very unlikely that's going to happen.

1067
00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:46.360
<v Speaker 3>So speaking, speaking of efficiency, by the way, real quick,

1068
00:52:46.719 --> 00:52:48.440
<v Speaker 3>have you heard of the tool called RTK.

1069
00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:51.039
<v Speaker 4>No, so take a look at RTK.

1070
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:55.119
<v Speaker 3>It's basically a tool that captures the other tool commands

1071
00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:58.960
<v Speaker 3>and tightens the requests and the response. So it's all

1072
00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:02.199
<v Speaker 3>it's not using the LM to do this, actually using

1073
00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:06.880
<v Speaker 3>uh so actual pro software to trim things down and

1074
00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:09.880
<v Speaker 3>remove unnecessary text to save tokens.

1075
00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:12.000
<v Speaker 2>So this is on GitHub r.

1076
00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:16.000
<v Speaker 3>Yes, RTK, I believe is what actually if you go

1077
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:17.199
<v Speaker 3>to yeah.

1078
00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:20.280
<v Speaker 2>It's our RTK dash ai slash rtk Yep.

1079
00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:21.920
<v Speaker 4>It's super super interesting.

1080
00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:24.039
<v Speaker 3>We've we all use it pretty much, all use it

1081
00:53:24.039 --> 00:53:27.159
<v Speaker 3>a d and simple now great tool for sort of

1082
00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:30.400
<v Speaker 3>reducing token Yeah.

1083
00:53:30.239 --> 00:53:34.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you see us all moving towards various optimization and methodology.

1084
00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:37.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so what's next at dan simple? Do you guys

1085
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.119
<v Speaker 1>have a backlog you're burning through at a greater pace

1086
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:43.840
<v Speaker 1>now that you've got some agentic tools working against it, or.

1087
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:46.559
<v Speaker 3>So we've taken we've taken a slightly different approach I

1088
00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:50.039
<v Speaker 3>think than a lot of companies are. We're not trying

1089
00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:53.920
<v Speaker 3>to do like we're not trying to be oh well

1090
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:57.840
<v Speaker 3>produced ten times as many things, because there's a quality

1091
00:53:57.840 --> 00:53:58.760
<v Speaker 3>impact of doing that.

1092
00:53:58.800 --> 00:53:59.639
<v Speaker 4>There's there's only a.

1093
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:02.159
<v Speaker 3>Sure our funnel still looks the way it does in

1094
00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:04.440
<v Speaker 3>terms of team members, and we want people to be

1095
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:07.679
<v Speaker 3>paying attention to what they're doing. So instead, what we're

1096
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:10.880
<v Speaker 3>doing is we're focusing on cleaning up some of the

1097
00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:14.400
<v Speaker 3>backlog of things that weren't like that have been frustrating

1098
00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:18.280
<v Speaker 3>for us, frustrating customers. Yes, and we're using this as

1099
00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:22.880
<v Speaker 3>an opportunity to spend some time on that before we

1100
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:24.840
<v Speaker 3>go into the next round of Okay, now that we

1101
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:27.559
<v Speaker 3>clean that up, what kind of functionality do people really need?

1102
00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:29.960
<v Speaker 3>What kind of new products can we look into doing

1103
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:32.079
<v Speaker 3>that are adjacent to what we're already.

1104
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:34.360
<v Speaker 4>Doing things like that, because we.

1105
00:54:33.679 --> 00:54:38.039
<v Speaker 3>We think that we've i mean, our api, our ui,

1106
00:54:38.199 --> 00:54:40.239
<v Speaker 3>most of this stuff has been pretty stable for quite

1107
00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:40.880
<v Speaker 3>a long time.

1108
00:54:41.559 --> 00:54:43.079
<v Speaker 4>What else could we do to do better?

1109
00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:44.800
<v Speaker 3>And the first thing is do better with what we

1110
00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:47.440
<v Speaker 3>already have and then figure out other areas where we

1111
00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:49.360
<v Speaker 3>can help do better that we haven't yet touched.

1112
00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:52.760
<v Speaker 2>Sure, that's very smart. I am talking to more organizations

1113
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:57.039
<v Speaker 2>these days who, as they're getting through their backlogs, are

1114
00:54:57.800 --> 00:54:59.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of looking around saying like, what do we do now?

1115
00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:02.199
<v Speaker 2>And for the most part, it's how much stuff never

1116
00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:03.800
<v Speaker 2>hit the back law because it was never going to

1117
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:07.760
<v Speaker 2>get to Yeah, and it turns out a lot Yes see,

1118
00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:10.840
<v Speaker 2>they're producing a lot more software, and I'm having a

1119
00:55:10.840 --> 00:55:12.480
<v Speaker 2>lot more software to produce. Yeah.

1120
00:55:12.519 --> 00:55:14.800
<v Speaker 3>The downside of that is that you produce a lot

1121
00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:18.639
<v Speaker 3>more software, it's going to you're producing a lot more defects,

1122
00:55:18.679 --> 00:55:22.000
<v Speaker 3>and you're producing a lot more main costs, maintenance costs,

1123
00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:25.079
<v Speaker 3>and you're and so it's it's.

1124
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:28.280
<v Speaker 4>An interesting time for sure for software development as a whole.

1125
00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:30.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think we have to take responsibility, you know,

1126
00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:33.440
<v Speaker 2>the whole. You know, roll, don't roll your own if

1127
00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:36.119
<v Speaker 2>you don't have to. It's not about I can't write

1128
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:37.920
<v Speaker 2>this code. It's I don't want to own this code.

1129
00:55:38.079 --> 00:55:41.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, indeed. So, yeah, that's what we're doing.

1130
00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:44.119
<v Speaker 3>We're focusing right now on just on cleaning up some

1131
00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:45.880
<v Speaker 3>of the things that have been sitting there for many,

1132
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:50.920
<v Speaker 3>many years, which I was able to use Claude to

1133
00:55:51.079 --> 00:55:53.159
<v Speaker 3>look at over a period of time. I went back

1134
00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:55.199
<v Speaker 3>and used that member. I mentioned g h which is

1135
00:55:55.239 --> 00:55:58.440
<v Speaker 3>githubs tool for looking through GitHub issues and you can

1136
00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:02.239
<v Speaker 3>use it. And so I was producing analysis on okay

1137
00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:05.639
<v Speaker 3>each month by month for each year. Tell me what

1138
00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:09.239
<v Speaker 3>open issues we still have? Let's write up about are

1139
00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:11.920
<v Speaker 3>they actually still open? Because what we find is sometimes

1140
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:13.679
<v Speaker 3>we don't close an issue out, we don't link it

1141
00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:17.519
<v Speaker 3>up properly, maybe it was fixed by something else unintentionally.

1142
00:56:18.079 --> 00:56:20.519
<v Speaker 3>And so I went back and now I have a

1143
00:56:20.519 --> 00:56:23.159
<v Speaker 3>whole long list of things which I know are still issues,

1144
00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:25.039
<v Speaker 3>and a bunch of things that are no longer issues

1145
00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:27.679
<v Speaker 3>because they were solved, that aren't cluttering up our GitHub repo,

1146
00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:30.440
<v Speaker 3>our get hub issues, which is great. So there's a

1147
00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:34.440
<v Speaker 3>lot of uses that we find that when you open

1148
00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:36.800
<v Speaker 3>up certain tooling, you can start to go, oh that

1149
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:38.519
<v Speaker 3>I never even thought about being able to do that,

1150
00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:39.519
<v Speaker 3>and that's pretty cool.

1151
00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:40.480
<v Speaker 2>That's very powerful.

1152
00:56:40.559 --> 00:56:42.679
<v Speaker 1>Is there anything we missed in the conversation that you

1153
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:45.360
<v Speaker 1>want to mention before we hang up?

1154
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:48.559
<v Speaker 3>From my side, not really, just I keep thinking, one

1155
00:56:48.559 --> 00:56:50.400
<v Speaker 3>of these days I'm going to I want to be

1156
00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:52.119
<v Speaker 3>on dot neet rocks and I'm going.

1157
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:53.559
<v Speaker 4>To interview the two of you.

1158
00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:54.440
<v Speaker 2>No, it's this.

1159
00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:56.519
<v Speaker 4>Thing that's gone through my head. Yeah, I'm gonna interview.

1160
00:56:56.760 --> 00:56:59.679
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to get deep into, like the Richard and Carl,

1161
00:57:00.159 --> 00:57:01.599
<v Speaker 3>what you're doing right now.

1162
00:57:03.400 --> 00:57:05.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm sitting in a hotel room in Brooklyn.

1163
00:57:05.079 --> 00:57:06.639
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what you're doing, but yeah, I get that.

1164
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:09.039
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I didn't even I'm in France right now, so

1165
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:10.840
<v Speaker 3>for the moment, I hear it. Heading back over to

1166
00:57:10.840 --> 00:57:11.679
<v Speaker 3>the US in just a bit.

1167
00:57:11.800 --> 00:57:14.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, great, Anthony, It's been a delight as usual to

1168
00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:15.960
<v Speaker 1>talk to you today.

1169
00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:18.360
<v Speaker 3>Carl Richard, It's always a pleasure to speak with both

1170
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:19.559
<v Speaker 3>of you. Thanks for having me on again.

1171
00:57:19.639 --> 00:57:22.360
<v Speaker 7>You bet anytime, friend, and we'll talk to you, dear listener,

1172
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:42.039
<v Speaker 7>next time on dot net rocks.

1173
00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:48.199
<v Speaker 8>Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net

1174
00:57:48.320 --> 00:57:52.280
<v Speaker 8>and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video

1175
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:56.480
<v Speaker 8>and post production facilities located physically in New London, Connecticut,

1176
00:57:56.679 --> 00:57:59.800
<v Speaker 8>and of course in the cloud online at p W

1177
00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:01.519
<v Speaker 8>O P dot com.

1178
00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:03.800
<v Speaker 9>Visit our website at d O T N E T

1179
00:58:04.039 --> 00:58:08.039
<v Speaker 9>R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

1180
00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:11.880
<v Speaker 9>mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1181
00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:15.159
<v Speaker 9>back to show number one, recorded in September two.

1182
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:18.000
<v Speaker 8>Thousand and two, and make sure you check out our sponsors.

1183
00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:21.159
<v Speaker 8>They keep us in business. Now go write some code.

1184
00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:24.960
<v Speaker 8>See you next time you got Jamdlevans