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True Murder with your host, 37 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:37.159 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 38 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:50.040 Good Evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 39 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:53.120 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 40 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:56.959 History and the authors that have written about them. Weaver 41 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:02.120 and fiber artist Edith Penn knew her friend Sandy Merritt's 42 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:05.799 relationship with a married man was wrong. She had even 43 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:09.360 urged Sandy to take out a restraining order against Kenneth Carpenter, 44 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:13.280 which is why her call to Sandy on February twenty third, 45 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:16.240 two thousand and five seemed to come from right out 46 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:19.120 of the blue. During it, she told Sandy to drop 47 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:22.719 the restraining order and get back together with Ken. Penn 48 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:26.280 was never seen again. One man stood to gain from 49 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:32.159 Penn's disappearance, Ken Carpenter, but evidence was bleak, no blood, DNA, 50 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:36.400 no body until detectives found notes hidden beneath the leather chair. 51 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:39.599 It turned out to be a playbook for murder. The 52 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:42.039 book we're featuring this evening is Notes on a Killing 53 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:46.599 with my guest journalist and author, Kevin Flynn. Welcome to 54 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:48.639 the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. 55 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:50.759 Kevin Flynn, Dan. 56 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:52.400 Thank you so much. The Pleasure's Mind. 57 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.439 Well, thank you very much. This is a really great 58 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:59.280 story and you have written it with a lot of flare. 59 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:03.000 So's get right to it. A question I asked often 60 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:05.240 because it's very revealing without getting too much of the 61 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:08.319 story away at all, which probably won't, But tell us 62 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:12.000 why this was a story that you felt compelled to do. 63 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:15.840 How did you come to write this story Notes on 64 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:16.400 a Killing? 65 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:20.960 A couple of things really come to mind, Dan, why 66 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.680 I and my co author Rebecca Lavoy selected this story. 67 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.039 One was that at the time of the case, I 68 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:33.879 was a television reporter here in New Hampshire and I 69 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.759 got assigned the story one day while it was still 70 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:42.639 considered a missing person's case. And there's an extended passage 71 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:46.879 in the middle of the book kind of detailing that 72 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:50.960 one day that I spent on the case, just it 73 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:56.280 stumbled across some evidence and you were able to do 74 00:03:56.479 --> 00:04:01.080 a little shoe leather journalism and figure out this mysterious 75 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:06.000 address and the deep woods where nefarious things were going 76 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:10.039 on and anyway, it was always for that reason a 77 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:13.240 favorite story of mine. But you know, the thing that 78 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:18.120 got Rebecca interested in the story was the tale of 79 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:22.639 the victim in this case. Pen Meyer Penn was an 80 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:28.399 extraordinary woman by all accounts, you know, really revered, almost 81 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:34.079 you know, put on a pedestal by the folks in 82 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:38.959 the area. She was a woman who came from great wealth, 83 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:45.240 but did not necessarily live off of her family's largests. 84 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:49.160 She lived very modestly in a house on a little 85 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:52.600 lake in rural New Hampshire. She lived in the town 86 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:57.120 of Goshen, and the lake was nicknamed the Goshen Ocean 87 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.439 by the residents. Penn liked to, as you say, you know, 88 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:07.839 sort of made her money by weaving fabrics and afghans 89 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:11.199 and being a fiber artist, where she would sell her 90 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:15.120 wares at local farmers' markets. She was always with her 91 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:20.199 favorite dog, Fluff. She and Fluff went everywhere together, and 92 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:25.240 that included the alcoholics, anonymous meetings that she attended. Although 93 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:29.720 she was, you know, a free spirit and beloved by 94 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:32.079 her friends, she also had her demons that she was 95 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:35.319 working on. She was in recovery, and she was the 96 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:39.800 kind of person who liked to help out her her friends, 97 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:43.279 and she really extended herself and as we find out 98 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:49.040 in the book, that is her undoing. Her kindness, her 99 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:52.439 interest in her friends, her willingness to stand up for 100 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:57.800 somebody in need, is how she ended up in the 101 00:05:57.879 --> 00:05:59.040 situation she was in. 102 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:04.639 And she's, like you mentioned, an independent person, but sort 103 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:08.839 of with the painted picture. She's a former. You describe 104 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.600 her as a very stunning woman, very very pretty, athletic, 105 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:16.720 very very you know, very pretty woman. And now that 106 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:20.560 she's a little bit older, she still had that athleticism 107 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:23.199 and had that the looks. She was still a very 108 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:25.399 noticeable woman. 109 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.399 Yeah, she was, you know, in her mid fifties, but 110 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:32.439 she still had she was still very trim, very tone. 111 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:36.920 Her skin was always very kind of brown from the sun. 112 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:40.639 Because she would go out. She had she had a 113 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:43.560 pretty strict routine, which was she would get up in 114 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:47.240 the morning and go for a walk with her dog, Fluff, 115 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:50.480 and in the wintertime. In the afternoon she'd go snowshowing, 116 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:53.199 so she was always outside. She had a green thumb 117 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:57.000 and loved to work in the garden and other people's 118 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:00.800 gardens and local farms in her bare feet and get dirty. 119 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:04.680 She had her own sort of interesting sense of style. 120 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:10.079 She had these big bangles and bracelets that were very 121 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:13.199 distinctive to her. So she still had a flair and 122 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:18.199 she had a lot of personality, and to some extent 123 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:20.279 you might say she was stubborn in this sense that 124 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:23.279 she wasn't one who suffered fools lightly. 125 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:30.040 I see now this community too, we're talking is this Newport, 126 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:31.800 New Hampshire were talked about. 127 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:36.160 Well, it's the closest city on any map would be 128 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:39.079 a Newport. And I would like to say that the 129 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.879 town that Penn was living in, Goshen, you couldn't find 130 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:45.720 on a map that didn't have a considerable amount of detail. 131 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:47.839 It's very easy to. 132 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:50.319 Miss it. 133 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:52.920 You know, we have a saying here in New England 134 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:55.720 that when someone's asking for directions, you say, oh, well 135 00:07:56.040 --> 00:08:01.319 you can't get there from here, and and that's kind 136 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:03.839 of true because you know on the maps you want 137 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:07.079 to get from this town to that town but which 138 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:08.720 you don't know is there's a mountain in the way 139 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:12.079 in this lake and the road goes, you know, twenty 140 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:15.519 miles in the opposite direction. So the county in which 141 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.360 all this action takes place, Sullivan County, is a pretty 142 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:24.720 small and rural you know, there is some some working farms, 143 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:28.120 but it's mostly just sort of woods people living in 144 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:34.759 very modest homes, sort of living a country kind of 145 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:40.399 lifestyle in New England. And so Penn, you know, just 146 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:44.720 kind of she comes from an industrial family of industrialists. 147 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:49.840 She had lots of money, her relatives, her ancestors, came 148 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:53.440 over on the Mayflower, but she didn't live that flashy lifestyle. 149 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:55.080 She certainly, you know, I guess you could say she 150 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:57.679 went native. She fit right in with the folks in 151 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:02.399 New Hampshire and wore you know, very modest close and drove, 152 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:07.039 you know, a Honda CRV and didn't drive a Cadillac. 153 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:10.480 And although she really could have, you know, flaunted her wealth, 154 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:11.679 she just kind of fit in. 155 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:19.120 Now, had she been married, and for the purpose of 156 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:23.840 this story, at this time in the story, she had 157 00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:26.320 a boyfriend, So tell us a little bit about what 158 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:30.519 her marital status was over the years. And where she 159 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:31.240 was currently. 160 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:36.799 Yeah, she had been married twice before. She had been 161 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:39.840 married when she was younger, had had three kids with 162 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:44.679 her first husband, and she remained good friends with her 163 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:48.960 first husband. He was vice president of a bank nearby. 164 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:53.639 They had an amicable relationship. She had three grown kids, 165 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:58.919 a son and two daughters, and she had gotten remarried 166 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:04.320 around I mean thinks around two thousand and one or 167 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:08.200 two thousand and two, and our story takes place in 168 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:16.120 late two thousand and five, and her marriage, her second marriage, 169 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:20.559 was on the rocks. Her husband was drinking too much, 170 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:23.679 and of course she was in recovery, and so she, 171 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:27.639 you know, wanted to get some support for that, for 172 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:32.120 being the spouse of a problem drinker. And so she 173 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:35.200 went to alan On, which is a very similar program 174 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:39.960 to aas it really is for family members of folks 175 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.799 who have an addiction and you know, how were you 176 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:46.720 supposed to deal with that person? And it is here 177 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:50.840 that she met another fellow whose name was Jonathan Puriic. 178 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:55.320 Jonathan was about the same age as mid fifties. He 179 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:59.320 had been married four times himself, and it took him, 180 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:02.240 you know, the better part of his life to realize 181 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:05.720 that that all of his relationships had fallen apart, and 182 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:09.799 all of his career aspirations had fallen apart because of 183 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:15.600 his drinking. And he finally got sober and you know 184 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:19.039 it took to the program pretty well. And it's at 185 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:21.639 this Allanon meeting that the two of them first meet. 186 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:25.080 He is very taken by Pen, of course, because she's 187 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.720 very charismatic. She when she walks into a room, she 188 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:34.320 doesn't seem like everybody else. She's got this bright personality, 189 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:39.480 this aura around her. So he's immediately attracted. And while 190 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:45.240 they are you know, very close friends, while Penn's marriage 191 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:50.960 is falling apart, they have a plutonic relationship. And it 192 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:55.679 isn't until after Penn tells Jonathan that she is going 193 00:11:55.720 --> 00:11:58.799 to get a divorce that Jonathan asks her out and 194 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:01.720 she says she would like that, but she's going to 195 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.360 wait till the divorce is final, and Jonathan was a 196 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:07.320 little put off, but then he realizes this is another 197 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:11.600 part of her character that even though she's not, you know, 198 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:13.720 going to stay in the marriage, she's true to avows 199 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:16.399 and and that set a lot to him. So they 200 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:20.720 once they once the divorce was final, she and Jonathan 201 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:24.480 were a couple, and their relationship was very intense. They 202 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:27.360 they felt very passionately about each other. 203 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:33.559 Now with her second marriage, I believe to Richard Rank 204 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:37.000 and or at some point she met a woman named 205 00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:43.960 Juanne dufour and Penn had out helped Juanne well, encouraged 206 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.200 her basically made a much better job than when she 207 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:49.360 had met her, and a job with benefits, and that 208 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:51.720 encouraged the woman and she got that. Just wanted to 209 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:56.440 introduced that was was she Did she meet Juanne during 210 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:59.279 that second marriage or yeah, I. 211 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:01.440 Think it was around that second marriage. They met through 212 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:04.440 AA And you know, one of the ways that she 213 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.759 would help if Joanne didn't have a car. I'm not 214 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:10.080 quite certain whether or not she lost the car or 215 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:12.639 as happens a bit, you know, she lost her license. 216 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:17.039 But pen would, you know, give her rides everywhere. And 217 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.399 you know, whether Joanne was expecting it or not, Penn 218 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:23.879 would if she caught her walking on the road, she 219 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:25.440 just pull up beside her and tell her to get 220 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:27.759 in the car to take her wherever she wanted. And 221 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:33.960 it's on a February day in two thousand and six 222 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:38.399 where Penn is Joanne is waiting for Penn to come 223 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:40.080 pick her up in the morning because she has a 224 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:45.679 dentist appointment, and Pen does not arrive, and Joanne immediately 225 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:48.639 knows that there's something wrong because if Pen were stuck somewhere, 226 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:51.159 Penn would have called. If Pen were sick, she would 227 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.799 have called. If Penn had gotten into an accident, was 228 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:55.840 stuck in a ditch, she would have gone to somebody's 229 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:58.120 house to call and say that she couldn't make it. 230 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:03.399 So Penn not showing up for jo Anne to take 231 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.840 her to that appointment was the first red flag that 232 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:06.679 something was wrong. 233 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.679 Now let's go back. I apologize for introducing her sort 234 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:12.120 of a little bit of a out of order here, 235 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:17.080 So let's get to another main character, Duanne. It's definitely 236 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:19.720 a main character in this as well, but one of 237 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:24.399 the more major characters is Sandra Sandy Merit. So let's 238 00:14:24.440 --> 00:14:28.559 introduce Sandy Merritt. Who is she and how did her 239 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.440 and Pen meet and become friends? 240 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:37.720 Well again, Penn met Sandy through AA. Sandy was what 241 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:41.120 was referred to as a newbie. She had been in 242 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.679 the program for less than a year. Sandy had her 243 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:49.600 own demons to deal with is she had a dual diagnosis, 244 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:51.639 which means not only did she have an addiction, but 245 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:55.080 she had mental health issues. So she'd always struggled with 246 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:59.559 her sobriety. But she had gotten into AA in the 247 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:02.559 you know, in the in the area, uh and had 248 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:06.320 been uh, you know, had been sticking with the program 249 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:10.480 and doing well and and socializing with different people in 250 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:15.159 the in the program, and you know, uh, Sandy was 251 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:18.120 I should say, Pen was just friendly with Sandy and 252 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:21.480 you know, kept an eye out for her and happened 253 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:25.639 to notice that Sandy was, you know, getting herself into 254 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:30.320 a pretty bad spot as far as her relationships go. 255 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.320 And so Penn was keeping an eye on her about that. 256 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:38.159 Well, what was it about the relationship that she was 257 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:44.159 Sandy had confided in Pen about and what was exactly 258 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:47.200 wrong with that relationship in Pen's. 259 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:51.440 Mind, Well, the relationship that she that that Sandy had 260 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:54.759 begun was with another guy in AA by the name 261 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:58.720 of Ken Carpenter. Now everybody knew Ken in the AA meetings, 262 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:01.840 as of course they all in this small community and 263 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:05.679 the smaller, more intimate community of AA. But Ken was 264 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:09.759 known very much as someone who could talk a good meeting. 265 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:14.799 He really knew the platitudes of AA could talk to 266 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:19.679 twelve steps out. Very charismatic in that setting. But Ken 267 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.799 was married, and he was married to of course, and 268 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:25.759 it seems another woman from AA. 269 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:30.159 Wait, the Lucky landslopts. You can get lucky just about anywhere. 270 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:33.840 This is your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and 271 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:35.679 the weather's fine, but we're just going to circle up 272 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:38.840 here a while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. 273 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:41.360 It's just these cash prizes add up quick. So I 274 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:43.759 suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right, 275 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:47.519 and start getting lucky. Pay for free at Lucky landslipes 276 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:49.559 dot com. Are you feeling lucky? 277 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:49.960 No? 278 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:53.279 For just necessary void. We're prohibited by Law eighteen plus. 279 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:54.559 Terms and conditions apply. 280 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:56.120 See website for details. 281 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.039 Nurse by the name of Cynthia Harvey and every but 282 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:04.480 he called her Harve for short. So Sandy was having 283 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:09.920 h an affair with Ken. Ken had told Sandy that 284 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:14.000 his relationship with Harve was was loveless. It was on 285 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.680 its last legs that they, you know, were about to 286 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.920 get a divorce. Uh. But this wasn't the case. Harv 287 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:26.240 had no idea that Ken was saying this or feeling this. 288 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:30.599 It was just some subterbute so that Ken could have 289 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:34.960 a relationship with Sandy. Sandy confided some of you know, 290 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.640 the complications of her relationship with Ken, which of course 291 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.160 Ken wanted to keep a secret. Sand Sandy confided these 292 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:47.039 with with Penn. Penn's first concern was, you know, she 293 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:51.279 wasn't going to be judgy about whether or not, you know, 294 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:54.200 Sandy should carry on with a married man, but she 295 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:58.480 was very concerned that Ken, who had twenty plus years 296 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:02.240 of sobriety, was dating a new beet because that is 297 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:05.960 one of the foreboden things about the twelve step program 298 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:10.240 is that if you're new to the program and you're 299 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:15.680 dealing with your addiction, a new relationship, a sexual relationship, 300 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:19.680 is not advisable because you really need, they believe, that 301 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.200 first year to sort of find yourself. And in fact, 302 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:28.319 it's called the thirteenth step that people should not AA 303 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:32.079 members should not date other AA members during their first 304 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.759 year of recovery. So, you know, Penn and Jonathan, who 305 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:38.400 had been sober for a long time been in the program, 306 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:41.799 that's you know, that consider that a different situation. But 307 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:47.960 Ken should have known better than to be flirting, and 308 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:50.640 you know, for lack of a better term, praying on Sandy. 309 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.599 So you know, Penn was under you know, was under 310 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.319 the same impression that Sandy was. That Ken and Harve 311 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:06.079 had a very you know, a thin relationship, that was 312 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:11.720 they were on the outs, and that a divorce of 313 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:15.319 some kind of separation of some kind was eminent as 314 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:20.039 soon as Ken could figure out, you know, the financials 315 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:23.599 of it and how he could keep her her insurance 316 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:25.160 and other things that could kind of just kind of 317 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.319 stretch the relationship out for about ten months, so Penn 318 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:32.319 knew that knew all of this, And it wasn't until 319 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:37.240 Penn and Jonathan went to a party one evening that 320 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:42.279 Ken was at with his wife, Harve, And when Penn 321 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:47.319 arrived and saw Ken and Harve together as husband and wife, 322 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:51.519 she realized that the story that Ken had been feeding 323 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:55.160 Sandy all these months was a lie. They were most 324 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:58.680 definitely together, or at the very least Harve had no 325 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:01.960 idea that she was supposed to not be with Ken, 326 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:06.960 and Ken, realizing that he'd been caught cornered Penn at 327 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.640 the party, begged her not to say anything to Sandy, 328 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:14.400 and uh, you know, Penn, what. 329 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:16.759 Did she say? And what did she say? In response 330 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:18.599 to that, well, she. 331 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:24.319 Said she basically no, she wasn't gonna lie for him, 332 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:27.920 and she you know, it was you know, we all 333 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.119 kind of found surprising that you know, he's caught in 334 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.000 this adulterous relationship and his thing isn't to say, don't 335 00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:36.480 tell my wife. His thing is to say, don't tell 336 00:20:36.759 --> 00:20:41.359 my girlfriend. And you know, they have been through the 337 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:44.240 program together, they had these life skills and the first 338 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:46.400 thing that Penn says is, you know you have to 339 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:53.039 remember you know, uh, the fifth step uh, and you 340 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:54.839 know the seventh step and this, you know the steps 341 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:57.079 that's that say you have to you know, be be 342 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:03.000 true and make amends to people. And you know, Ken's 343 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:06.359 response was another AA platitude, which was you have to 344 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:09.480 sweep your own side of the street, which in the 345 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:12.480 program means you can't worry about what other people are doing. 346 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.000 You have to focus on yourself. But the way he's saying, 347 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:19.680 he's saying it is mind your own business. So about 348 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:23.559 a week later, you know, Sandy learns the truth that 349 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:26.200 she had been taken advantage of, and she breaks the 350 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:30.079 relationship off with Ken, but it doesn't end there. 351 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:33.200 Now, I wanted to ask this question because if this 352 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:36.319 is one thing, you were very subtle in this regard, 353 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:40.079 not very judgmental or anything. But it wasn't really clear 354 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:44.720 whether Ken is a real playboy at these meetings, because again, 355 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:47.640 he's been involved for a long time. He knows better, 356 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:52.799 and Sandra is certainly not, you know, I mean in 357 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:56.759 terms of she's more vulnerable, she's depressed, she's got more problems, 358 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:02.160 and she's certainly not competition for or pen or anything 359 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:04.160 in terms of looks or his own wife in terms 360 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:07.799 of looks. So is he sort of a playboy? Is 361 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:09.319 he picking out vulnerable women? 362 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.039 Yeah? A couple of things going on there with Ken. 363 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:15.759 I mean, he wasn't necessarily, you know, the most handsome guy. 364 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.319 But you have to remember that they are in a 365 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:23.480 group of people that have you know, hit rock bottom 366 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:27.240 in that you know, in that term, and are rebuilding 367 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.440 their lives, and they're very, very vulnerable and the experiences 368 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:35.319 are something that are known to just just that handful 369 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.279 of people. You know what it's like to go through that. 370 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:43.480 So that kind of knowledge and experience is and mixed 371 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:46.759 in with his charm is a very powerful thing. So 372 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:50.400 that both men and women looked up to Ken, and 373 00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:56.599 Ken has the brain of an addict. He was an alcoholic, 374 00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:00.759 he had done drugs, he was sober it came to 375 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:05.640 you know, those kinds of substances. But he was still 376 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.440 an addict, and he was still acting out. And in 377 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.079 the way that he was acting out was sexually. And 378 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:14.319 he was a he had a predator's mind, and so 379 00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:17.400 that he could look around the room and you know, 380 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:19.759 some people might call it bird dogging, but he was 381 00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:22.480 sizing up all the women in the room and trying 382 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:25.000 to figure out who might I be able to hit on, 383 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:28.160 who might I be able to you know, score with. 384 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:35.359 And Sandy, who was extremely vulnerable to begin with, new 385 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.640 to the program, had her own set of baggage, was 386 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:41.519 somebody that was easy prey for him. And so that's 387 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:44.720 one of the reasons why, you know, he was able 388 00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:49.240 to take such you know, thorough control of Sandy. You know, 389 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:52.960 Sandy thought they were having a real relationship for for many, 390 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:57.000 many months, you know, into some way, I think Ken 391 00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:59.960 believed it too, But it isn't until the relationship fell up. 392 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:05.160 Part that Ken couldn't accept the fact that Sandy didn't 393 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:07.400 want to be with him, couldn't accept the fact that 394 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:09.920 for all of his powers of charm. For all of 395 00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:15.359 his ability to control people, he couldn't control Sandy and 396 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:20.680 and Dan. I know you've seen these situations where there's 397 00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.279 a guy who says, look, if you know, if you 398 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.559 don't want me, no one else can have you, and 399 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.480 and take all their rage out on the former lover. Well, 400 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:34.400 in this case, because of the way his mind works, 401 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:38.240