1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:08,839 Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:10,000 an idea. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,439 Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through. 4 00:00:13,359 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,120 I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, 6 00:00:22,519 --> 00:00:24,320 not because I put my hand on a book and 7 00:00:24,399 --> 00:00:28,839 made a wish and working together for a more rational world. 8 00:00:29,079 --> 00:00:32,039 Speaker 3: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. 9 00:00:32,079 --> 00:00:34,719 Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way. 10 00:00:35,679 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the 11 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:52,759 Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. 12 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 3: Before I play the audio of a conversation that I 13 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,320 had on video recently, and that YouTube link is in 14 00:01:02,399 --> 00:01:04,599 the description box in case you want to watch it, 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,239 and I encourage you to do so when you are 16 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:13,920 done listening here. But Dave Warnock, former minister hardcore evangelical, 17 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,680 comes out of the faith right he's an atheist, and 18 00:01:17,719 --> 00:01:20,400 then a few years ago he is diagnosed with a 19 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,120 terminal disease. Doctors tell him he's going to die of 20 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:30,200 als in short order, and so he committed himself to 21 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:35,000 accumulating as many life experiences as he could in the 22 00:01:35,079 --> 00:01:38,439 time he had left before his body essentially failed him. 23 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:40,719 And so I mean he traveled the world, and he 24 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,799 flew over the Grand Canyon in a helicopter, and he 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,439 went sky diving, and you know, he did all these 26 00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:50,879 things encouraging other people to maximize the moments. Right tomorrow 27 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,920 is not guaranteed. His hashtag was Carpe the fucking DM 28 00:01:56,159 --> 00:02:03,319 right sees the day, and he was popular and sought 29 00:02:03,359 --> 00:02:08,240 after speaker on the conference circuit. He was co hosting 30 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,080 call in shows until about a year ago. I think 31 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,120 it's been a year in the he just disappeared, like 32 00:02:16,159 --> 00:02:19,360 where's Dave? I didn't know. I mean I sent him 33 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,840 a text every few months, just checking and I got 34 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:26,800 a response. I'm still around doing okay. But beyond that 35 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,439 even I didn't know anything. But because people knew that 36 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,520 Dave and I were friends, they were asking me, you know, 37 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:37,520 did he die? Is he still with us? And I 38 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,759 mean I didn't have a good answer rather than well, 39 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,080 I got a reply to a text. So recently, I 40 00:02:45,159 --> 00:02:49,520 was in Nashville, Tennessee for the Nashville Nuns Conference none 41 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:55,360 meaning no religion, not Catholic, none, right, And I'm the 42 00:02:55,439 --> 00:02:58,599 keynote on Saturday. So I'm there at the end of 43 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,599 a long day of speaker and panels. But I noticed 44 00:03:01,599 --> 00:03:07,120 in the morning scheduled is Dave Warnock as a speaker. 45 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,319 And so I'm like, Okay, you know he's back, but 46 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,960 where's he been and how and why is he back 47 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,960 and what the hell's going on? And Dave and Bevin 48 00:03:20,039 --> 00:03:24,719 drove me to the airports after the conference and we 49 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,879 had a chance to talk a little bit. We grabbed 50 00:03:26,879 --> 00:03:29,599 a bite to eat. We're sitting over lunch and I 51 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,759 had a few hours before I had to be at 52 00:03:31,759 --> 00:03:35,000 the airport, and I said, hey, you know, Dave, I mean, 53 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,759 I don't know if you're up for this, but you know, 54 00:03:37,759 --> 00:03:40,759 if we can find a little nook somewhere, I got 55 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,759 my camera, rig I mean, we could just set something 56 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,599 up totally impromptu, informal, you know, just shake and bake, 57 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,639 and we can just set you on camera and I'll 58 00:03:50,639 --> 00:03:53,400 sit across from you and we can talk about all this. 59 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:58,719 And Dave said, let's do it, and so we rushed back. 60 00:03:58,759 --> 00:04:01,039 It was in his apartment building and they had a 61 00:04:01,039 --> 00:04:04,759 little room upstairs. It wasn't optimal. If you watch the video, 62 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:06,840 you'll see I'm sitting in front of a window and 63 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:08,960 the sun's blaring in behind me, but there weren't a 64 00:04:09,039 --> 00:04:12,520 lot of options in the room. And most importantly, Dave 65 00:04:12,599 --> 00:04:15,599 looks good. You know. There he is Dave Warnock in 66 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,480 four K right there sitting in his chair is motorized chair. 67 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:24,040 And we did about thirty minutes just talking about his journey. 68 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:25,800 And a lot of folks are going to want to 69 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,240 hear this because it answers some questions as to where 70 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:34,720 he has been. So this is the audio of the 71 00:04:34,879 --> 00:04:38,160 chat that I had just a few days ago with 72 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:41,360 Dave Warnock. And after the interview itself, I'm going to 73 00:04:41,439 --> 00:04:48,199 make a small request, so hang on for that. So 74 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,600 I had the opportunity in Nashville, Tennessee to have a 75 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,839 conversation totally unplanned. We just found a room to talk 76 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,360 with someone that many would consider to be a ghost, 77 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,680 and yet this apparition has appeared before me, Dave Warnock, Dave, 78 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,399 where you been? So you've been? 79 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: I've just been around. I've been here. I've been Nashville. 80 00:05:12,439 --> 00:05:16,920 I'm still here, not dead, not dead yet. Didn't know 81 00:05:16,959 --> 00:05:19,600 I'd be here for this many years when I got 82 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:24,000 diagnosed with this thing. I just turned seventy, So that's 83 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,759 a big number that. I don't know if I like 84 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,040 the idea of being seventy, but the alternative is not great. 85 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm going to say things and ask questions. 86 00:05:34,079 --> 00:05:38,360 I'm going I'm going to let the audience participate vicariously 87 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,720 through me, and I'm going to say this stuff that 88 00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:41,639 they might be thinking. 89 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:42,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know hous. 90 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,879 Speaker 3: To say this, But your past your expiration day, right, 91 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,720 I mean the doctor said you had how many years? 92 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: The standard diagnosis is three to five years. They tell 93 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,759 you you've got ALS, You've got three to five years. 94 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,519 That can vary wildly with ALS patients from six months 95 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,560 to twenty years. Twenty years is an outlier, but many 96 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,480 people go in six months, two years, whatever. It's just 97 00:06:11,399 --> 00:06:15,160 every case is completely different. So I've been at it 98 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:16,920 over six years, almost seven. Now. 99 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:19,519 Speaker 3: I feel like there are some believers praying for you 100 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:20,879 that think this is a miracle. 101 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,639 Speaker 2: It has been said to me. Has it such that, 102 00:06:25,959 --> 00:06:30,560 as one person put it recently, perhaps God has given 103 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,480 you some extra time so that you can reconsider your 104 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:39,759 deconstruction apostasy ways, sure. 105 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 3: To see the error of your ways and come back 106 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:42,399 to the fall. 107 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: As though God couldn't do that quickly he needs a 108 00:06:44,879 --> 00:06:48,759 little extra time extend my suffering a few years. 109 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 3: I have to do my due diligence here because there 110 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,120 are some who are being introduced to you for the 111 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:53,800 first time. 112 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:54,639 Speaker 2: How could this be? 113 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 3: I know everyone should know your name. You are a legend, 114 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,639 a man among men, all those things, the hero we need. 115 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,959 Good man, Dave, you have ALS? Can you tell everybody 116 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,000 what is ALS? And when are you diagnosed? 117 00:07:10,759 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to try to pronounce it correctly. Ameotrophic lateral sclerosis. 118 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,639 Most people know of it more commonly as lou Gerrigg's disease. 119 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,279 I've had it well. I was diagnosed February twenty six, 120 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:30,000 twenty nineteen. The diagnosis followed what I can look back 121 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,000 at and realize were symptoms that I'd had for six 122 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,920 to seven months prior. I just didn't know what they were. 123 00:07:36,639 --> 00:07:40,240 So clearly, I've had the disease in my body for 124 00:07:40,279 --> 00:07:43,639 over seven years. So I'm on the long end of 125 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,079 things in terms of how long this stuff takes to 126 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,319 kill you. It is a terminal disease. There's no cure, 127 00:07:50,319 --> 00:07:53,160 there's no treatment. They don't know what causes it. They 128 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,879 don't know anything about it. It's this mystery disease. So 129 00:07:57,439 --> 00:08:01,399 I've been told I have a slower progressing version of it, 130 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:03,800 which has been good. I've been you know, a lot 131 00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:07,079 of people if they had seen me at a conference 132 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,160 a few years ago, I was still walking around, they 133 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,439 could see I was affected in my arms some I think, 134 00:08:12,519 --> 00:08:14,240 you know, the last time we hung out, you could 135 00:08:14,279 --> 00:08:17,439 see that I had trouble feeding myself and stuff like that. 136 00:08:17,519 --> 00:08:21,000 But I was still walking up and down off the 137 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,480 stage or whatever around the conference or wherever I was. 138 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,720 But now I can't. I really can't walk more than 139 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:27,439 a few steps. 140 00:08:27,759 --> 00:08:30,639 Speaker 3: Now I see the chair. So are you chair bound? Now? 141 00:08:31,759 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 2: I would say, well, chair bound means you have to 142 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,799 be lifted out of it onto a bed or a 143 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:42,039 shower or something. I don't have to. I could still 144 00:08:42,519 --> 00:08:46,320 transfer myself, which is the medical term for get from 145 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,399 one place to another without assistance. So I can get 146 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,279 up out of this chair and waddle over to the couch, 147 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:54,759 or waddle to my bed and get in it. So 148 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,559 that's my limitation though, so but I can, like, for instance, 149 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,039 we'll go somewhere in a portable wheelchair, go to the car, 150 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,519 get myself into the car seat and not car seat 151 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,360 like a kid. But into the passenger seat, so to speak, 152 00:09:09,919 --> 00:09:13,799 and I can. Yeah, so I've got that ability still. 153 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 3: So in the time we've hung out, we had lunch together, 154 00:09:17,879 --> 00:09:20,919 I've noticed I haven't seen you move your arms. Are 155 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,759 you able to move your arms like cameras? You're able 156 00:09:24,799 --> 00:09:26,879 to raise it up? Just at even that effort, is 157 00:09:27,759 --> 00:09:30,519 shoulder muscles doing it? I see, I'm not using any 158 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,240 hand or arm muscles. Dexterity of the fingers and all that, 159 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:34,679 that's gone. 160 00:09:35,639 --> 00:09:39,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, almost no hand strength left, because that's where it started. 161 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 3: It was my hands neuropathy kind of thing or no pain. 162 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 2: Just the muscles are the nerves tell the muscles what 163 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,480 to do, and the muscles say, well, hell no, I'm 164 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:51,240 not doing that. 165 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 3: Is that again? I'm still learning? But does that create 166 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,080 a conflict in your brain? Your brain says, this should 167 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,120 make the fingers the digits move. 168 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, the nerves. I don't know if it's it's a 169 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,840 neurological disease, so motor neurons that the neurons aren't firing 170 00:10:08,399 --> 00:10:10,919 and the muscles don't ever get the signal pretty much 171 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,559 and so the atrophy. So my muscles are gradually dying. 172 00:10:14,799 --> 00:10:19,039 And I had I guess the reality that I wasn't 173 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,120 aware of at the time. I had strong leg muscles 174 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,240 to begin with, so they've taken longer to deteriorate. 175 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,919 Speaker 3: I mean, we're thankful that you're still with Yeah, yeah, no, 176 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:30,159 I'm glad to be here. 177 00:10:30,159 --> 00:10:30,399 Speaker 2: Okay. 178 00:10:30,399 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: I mean I'm not trying to say your past, your 179 00:10:32,279 --> 00:10:33,120 expiration date? 180 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,519 Speaker 2: What the hell? I like? So it's long ago. Say, 181 00:10:36,799 --> 00:10:38,720 hadn't they been Dying out Loud for ten years now 182 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:39,360 or something like that? 183 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 3: Is dying out Loud? 184 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: Was your Is it still a webs so to speak? 185 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 3: Is it Dave out Loud or Dying out Well, well, 186 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:45,720 the Dying out. 187 00:10:45,639 --> 00:10:48,279 Speaker 2: Load website was taken, so I went with Dave out 188 00:10:48,279 --> 00:10:51,919 Loud dot org. So it's still there. It's a little outdated. 189 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,480 I haven't done a lot lately because it's just harder 190 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,360 to do, but it's still there. You can find all 191 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,080 my stuff I've done for years on. 192 00:10:59,159 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 3: There some people who think you're full of shit, Like 193 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,799 Dave said he'd be gone in two years and he 194 00:11:05,919 --> 00:11:08,080 was doing all this activist thing and he wrote a 195 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,679 book and he did the speaking circuit. You know, do 196 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,519 you feel like there's some people that think this is 197 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:14,320 all theater. 198 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,279 Speaker 2: So it was Dave in the wheelchair. You just did 199 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,840 that for sympathy and attention. No, I don't. I don't know. 200 00:11:19,879 --> 00:11:22,799 I haven't had anyone directly say that, but I you know, 201 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,679 like I said earlier, in the first couple of years, 202 00:11:26,039 --> 00:11:28,600 I would see in the comments of some show like 203 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,679 hasn't they been dying out out for ten years or 204 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,159 something like that. I you know, honestly, when I got 205 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,039 diagnosed seth, I thought I may have a year or two, 206 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,519 so I'm going to make the most of it. And 207 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,200 then it, you know, went longer and went longer and 208 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,480 went longer, and I thought, okay, I'm going to be 209 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,720 around a little longer than I thought. Can be good, 210 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:50,399 can be bad. 211 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 3: We've talked about this, but when you got the diagnosis, 212 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:55,080 like day. 213 00:11:54,879 --> 00:12:02,039 Speaker 2: Of yeah, you terrified. I don't know, Oh, I guess 214 00:12:02,639 --> 00:12:07,720 numb was a better word. I don't remember being afraid. 215 00:12:08,279 --> 00:12:12,679 I remember like it settled in like a wet blanket, 216 00:12:12,759 --> 00:12:15,720 like this is my new reality and I'm going to 217 00:12:15,799 --> 00:12:18,600 have to adjust to that. And so it was a 218 00:12:18,639 --> 00:12:23,919 sense of like unreal It was like this is this 219 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,639 happening to me? Because you you know, by the time 220 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,320 I've gotten diagnosed. I had a lot of testing and 221 00:12:29,399 --> 00:12:33,720 been online and researched what als is and what it 222 00:12:33,759 --> 00:12:37,159 looks like. You know, there's videos of people in really 223 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,720 bad shape at the end, and I thought, Okay, that's 224 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:43,279 going to be me, that's my destiny. It was a 225 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,960 surreal feeling. It's more what I remember experiencing. Are you 226 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,600 afraid of death again? I don't know why not, but 227 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:58,080 I'm really not. I guess when it comes down to 228 00:12:59,399 --> 00:13:02,039 those final moments, I may have a little bit of 229 00:13:02,039 --> 00:13:08,679 a panicky feeling. I don't know, but I don't think 230 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,480 I'm afraid. You know, the process sounds pretty simple. I 231 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,799 go to sleep and I don't wake up, and I 232 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:22,960 don't think that's a very fearful experience. But again, it's 233 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,639 the thing that none of us have experienced and then 234 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,799 been able to talk about afterwards. So we do it 235 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,600 one time, and my time is approaching. I don't know 236 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,679 how much time I have left. I'm more afraid of 237 00:13:37,759 --> 00:13:40,679 not having a quality of life and being compromised in 238 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,879 such a way that life is no longer worth living. 239 00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:44,679 That's what I'm more afraid of. 240 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: What does that look like? You tell me how much 241 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,639 you want to share have you decided when the time comes, 242 00:13:54,440 --> 00:14:00,759 I decide, I take control, whether it's medical and dying 243 00:14:00,879 --> 00:14:02,200 or I don't know what the even I don't even 244 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,440 know what the laws are in Tennessee. I mean, because 245 00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:08,879 people are really is it like you're playing God? 246 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: Is that the attact they're taking here, that's the approach. 247 00:14:12,399 --> 00:14:16,080 I think that's exactly why most states do not have 248 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,559 a medical aid in dying law in the books. Very 249 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:23,039 few states do, like Canada has. I think it's because 250 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:27,120 of the undercurrent of religion that is pervasive in our country, 251 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,320 and there are a lot of people who say those 252 00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:34,799 very words, that's you're playing God and God decides when 253 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,639 to take you home, or you know, God's the one 254 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:43,679 that decides who lives and who dies. I don't know 255 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,440 what my line is. I've probably moved it already a 256 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,039 couple of times, you know. I think I've probably said 257 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,879 back in the day, whenever I can't walk, I'm out 258 00:14:54,919 --> 00:14:57,159 of here. Whenever I can't do this, I'm done. And 259 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,720 that's okay. I mean, we don't know do we get 260 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:02,679 up to the edge of the line. 261 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 3: Isn't that about control? Though? Like when I spoke to 262 00:15:05,399 --> 00:15:09,639 the folks at Final Exit. They were talking about the 263 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:15,559 fact that people who have control of how they manage 264 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,759 end of life decisions, having that control gave them peace 265 00:15:19,559 --> 00:15:22,480 and it allowed them the flexibility on their terms to 266 00:15:22,559 --> 00:15:25,679 decide the who, what went, and where right exactly. 267 00:15:25,799 --> 00:15:28,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've worked with Final Exit Network in years past, 268 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,559 and I think they told me like fifty to sixty 269 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,120 percent of the people that sign up with them never 270 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,480 use their services. They dislike knowing that it's an option. 271 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,240 So it is about control. It's about me being the 272 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,080 one who decides what I'm comfortable with in terms of 273 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,759 a quality of life. And when you're not encased in 274 00:15:50,879 --> 00:15:55,080 religious ideology, when you don't have a god that you're 275 00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:00,159 answering to, and you know that your own destiny is 276 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:03,639 in your own hands, then you're free to make those 277 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,759 kind of decisions without any thoughts of am I displeasing 278 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,559 some deity who's going to be upset with me? I 279 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,960 don't even think about that anymore. So I'm completely in control. 280 00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:17,840 And now you know, I want to be sensitive to 281 00:16:17,879 --> 00:16:21,320 those around me, those who care for me, care about 282 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:26,360 me and care for me. And you know, am I 283 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,399 being purely selfish when I say Okay, I've had enough, 284 00:16:29,399 --> 00:16:32,320 I'm out of here when they may want me around longer, 285 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,519 because there's a benefit to that, and so I have 286 00:16:35,559 --> 00:16:40,080 to consider that as well. I love a clip I 287 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:45,679 saw years ago where Stephen Colbert is asking Counta Reeves, 288 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,559 what happens? What do you think happens when we die? 289 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,159 It was kind of a gotcha question, and counter Reeves 290 00:16:51,559 --> 00:16:54,559 pauses for a minute and he says, I think when 291 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,360 we die, the people who love us will miss us. 292 00:16:58,879 --> 00:17:02,919 I thought, my God profound, and Colbert, being a Catholic, 293 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,680 he thought, oh, I'm expecting that. Yeah, But Kena kind 294 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,000 of threw it back on him. And that's what I 295 00:17:09,039 --> 00:17:10,960 think about now more than ever, is you know, I 296 00:17:11,039 --> 00:17:15,000 may be tired and ready to let it all go, 297 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,880 But what about those around me who maybe paid a 298 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,640 price to be with me through this journey? Am I 299 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:26,279 being fair to them? What do they want? And it's 300 00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:29,079 a balancing act and I don't really know the answers yet. 301 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,599 Speaker 3: The playing God thing was always bullshit anyway, right, because 302 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,200 I mean, if I'm diagnosed with an illness and I 303 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:40,440 intervened with a hospital visit or you know, antibiotics for whatever, or. 304 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 2: You know, so you don't take medicine, go to the doctor. 305 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:45,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, are you're not getting chemo for cancer? That's God? 306 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:46,799 What are you playing God? 307 00:17:46,599 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 2: And someone on a show like that that did that 308 00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:51,559 playing god thing, and I turned it back like that. 309 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,200 I said, so when you're sick, you don't go to 310 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,960 a doctor take medicine. No, I don't actually a said, 311 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,079 oh shit, you thought you had a god. 312 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 3: You know, there are those who argue that people who 313 00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:06,960 believe that prayer heals should be denied like medical care 314 00:18:07,599 --> 00:18:10,480 to see what they really believe. I'm not quite that sadistic, 315 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,359 but I take their point right. I mean, we pray 316 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:19,039 for healing, but we pay for doctors. That's the first 317 00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:22,200 half of my chat with Dave Warnock. We're going to 318 00:18:22,279 --> 00:18:26,559 continue and get more of his story, talking more about 319 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,680 where he's been, what he's doing, and what his needs 320 00:18:29,759 --> 00:18:39,599 are these days. Stand by. This is the second half 321 00:18:39,799 --> 00:18:43,599 of my conversation with Dave Warnock, as recorded a few 322 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,400 days ago when we spoke at the same conference in Nashville, Tennessee, 323 00:18:47,559 --> 00:18:53,759 and had a few minutes to talk afterward. Dave Warnock, 324 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,759 where you've been, Mike. You were hot and heavy, You're 325 00:18:58,799 --> 00:19:03,440 on the speaking circuit. You disappeared. Yeah, everybody said, shit, 326 00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:07,839 Dave died and we no one told us. That is 327 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,680 what I heard on all my pages. Has anyone heard 328 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,039 about Dave? Did he pass away? Where's the service? What 329 00:19:13,039 --> 00:19:14,480 do I do? Is there anything I can do to 330 00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:17,160 help him? Or is he in pain? I mean people 331 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,559 were really speaking with compassion about that. So when I 332 00:19:20,599 --> 00:19:24,079 saw your name on a speaking roster, I was like, Okay, 333 00:19:24,559 --> 00:19:28,559 there he is. But everybody's thinking, Dave, what's hot? 334 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:28,839 Speaker 2: Man? 335 00:19:28,839 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 3: Where you been? 336 00:19:30,559 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 2: I stepped back a year and a half or so 337 00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:37,240 ago rather suddenly. I do know that, and that part 338 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:41,599 is unfortunately I apologize for that. It wasn't fair to 339 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,240 people as I look back on it, but I needed 340 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,559 to for personal reasons. I'd gotten myself in a bad 341 00:19:47,599 --> 00:19:48,440 personal spot. 342 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,519 Speaker 3: And to be clear, I don't want to peer in 343 00:19:51,559 --> 00:19:54,599 your windows. Man, You know this is really you take 344 00:19:54,599 --> 00:19:55,440 me where you want to go. 345 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,759 Speaker 2: That's fine, all right, I just need you know. I 346 00:19:59,839 --> 00:20:02,680 just got in a place where I wasn't doing well 347 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,480 mentally and I made some bad decisions that hurt people 348 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:12,160 and actions that hurt people, and I just it kind 349 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,079 of caved in on me and I needed a step 350 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,000 back and get a kind of reboot my own personal 351 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,880 life and not being on a camera, not being on 352 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,319 a show, not being on a stage, just dealing with 353 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,920 my shit and being accountable to those people that I 354 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,559 had hurt and I wanted. I needed to do that, 355 00:20:33,839 --> 00:20:36,799 and I did it, and I'm not coming back, by 356 00:20:36,839 --> 00:20:41,720 the way. I just did a brief speaking thing at nanocon, 357 00:20:41,839 --> 00:20:44,599 a local thing here in Nashville, and it, you know, 358 00:20:44,839 --> 00:20:48,440 just it was not a hard thing to do because 359 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,640 it's here. But I don't really want to do any 360 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,559 more of that publicly, the YouTube shows and things like that. 361 00:20:56,799 --> 00:20:59,319 It would be hard for me physically to begin with 362 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,319 setting up and doing these things. I mean, if a 363 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,319 camera's turned on, like now, I can talk, but even 364 00:21:05,319 --> 00:21:08,079 that you can hear my voice is becoming more difficult 365 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,319 for any length of time. 366 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 3: So without a crew and all that stuff, it's logistically hard. 367 00:21:13,519 --> 00:21:14,319 Travel would be. 368 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 2: Travel is getting really really hard. Yeah, yeah, we can 369 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,200 still do it, but it's just it's a lot. And 370 00:21:22,279 --> 00:21:24,000 so I just, you know, I just needed to take 371 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,079 care of personal things and deal with with that part 372 00:21:27,079 --> 00:21:31,599 of me that I'm not real proud of and it 373 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:32,519 needed some attention. 374 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,279 Speaker 3: You struggle with how much of that to share publicly. 375 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,119 You want to be transparent and you want to say, 376 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,119 you know, we're all human and and acknowledge and go there. 377 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,160 But at the same time, you know you are allowed 378 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,440 a private life, you know. So it's it's a balancing act. 379 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,559 Speaker 2: It is a balancing act. And when you put yourself 380 00:21:50,599 --> 00:21:54,279 out there as I did, as you do as a 381 00:21:54,279 --> 00:21:58,480 public figure so to speak, in this particular world we 382 00:21:58,559 --> 00:22:02,400 dwell in. I know, it's a small pond so to speak, 383 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:05,319 you know, on the world stage. But when you put 384 00:22:05,319 --> 00:22:08,480 yourself out there as a public person, I think to 385 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:12,319 some degree you owe it to the public to be 386 00:22:12,319 --> 00:22:15,599 a little more transparent, not just be a complete asshole 387 00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:18,680 and disappear, which I did, which again I apologize for it. 388 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 3: Does you know people do see them made up for 389 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,200 broadcast version of public figures in many cases. I mean, 390 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,880 it is true that people are people, no matter of course. 391 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,640 Then now people that are out there in the audience 392 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,400 going holy shit, Dave Warnock, is he an asshole? And 393 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,240 so I'm like, well, I had lunch with them. He 394 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,599 didn't seem assholeish to me. 395 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 2: You know, No, I have been asholish to some people 396 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,319 that are very close to me. 397 00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 3: I'm not trying to turn that screw. 398 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 2: I know what you're saying. I want to do my due. 399 00:22:50,039 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 3: Diligence, and you know, I think people care. I think 400 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,880 people care to see you in a good place and 401 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,559 those around you in a good place. I think people 402 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,279 still take you very personally, whether you're on the circuit 403 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,200 or not, which is one of the reasons I was like, day, 404 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,359 would you talk to me today? 405 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:04,759 Speaker 2: Sure? 406 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 3: Because I think they're asking these questions vicariously through me. 407 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 2: It's a fair question. You got a guy you're relating 408 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,119 with on a YouTube show or a podcast, you feel 409 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,200 like you know him, and you know he's got a 410 00:23:16,279 --> 00:23:18,680 termal disease, and all of a sudden he disappears, and 411 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,279 you're going, fuck, did he die? All of a sudden? 412 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,799 Speaker 3: Did he get Jesus? Now he's on the church circuit? 413 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:24,240 What happened? 414 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:25,599 Speaker 2: I can make a lot more money doing that. 415 00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 3: You would know how to do it for those who 416 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,359 don't know, Dave, And it is true, very few people 417 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,960 watching probably don't know the story. But you were a 418 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:40,680 like Jesus freak, Minister Pennecostal, your tongue speaker, you really 419 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:41,680 spoke an other tongue. 420 00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 2: I still can did you. 421 00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:44,079 Speaker 3: Travel when you minister. 422 00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:47,039 Speaker 2: No, I was just I was never a big deal 423 00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:49,720 in the church world. I was always like an associate pastor. 424 00:23:50,319 --> 00:23:55,039 My last ministry Gig was a satellite pastor. If anybody 425 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,039 is in the modern church, you will know that term 426 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,359 of a congregation of a couple of hundred pe people. 427 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,440 And you know I did this preaching every Sunday and 428 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,559 that sort of thing. So yeah, I was a pastor, 429 00:24:05,599 --> 00:24:09,000 did the marrying and the burying and all the things that. 430 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 3: You haven't done back you you did not Rea, You 431 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,440 didn't go back to Jesus and say, you know, I 432 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,799 want to go to heaven and all that. It didn't happen. 433 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: I don't know how someone does that. I mean, once 434 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,359 you once the genies out of the bottle, once you 435 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,200 see what you see, you can and see it. I mean, 436 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,200 my brother is after me all the time to reconvert, 437 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,519 and he thinks he can convince me. 438 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 3: I mean, I get that though. I mean someone says 439 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,839 I want to go on, I want to see my 440 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,160 loved ones again. I want to be in a place 441 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,680 where my body has not been impacted by disease. And 442 00:24:41,759 --> 00:24:44,559 I have empathy and sympathy for people who go there. 443 00:24:44,599 --> 00:24:45,960 I'm sure you do as well. 444 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: Of course. So yeah, I just you know, just if 445 00:24:49,759 --> 00:24:52,000 it was believable, i'd try to believe it. I can't. 446 00:24:52,559 --> 00:24:54,359 I mean, I believe it for a long time, but 447 00:24:54,839 --> 00:24:56,960 once that was unpacked, I couldn't pack it back in. 448 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 3: You at this point, as we draw to a close, 449 00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:02,640 because I've got to run to the airport otherwise we 450 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,119 talk for another hour. My friend, you were at a 451 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,519 point now I've noticed where as your body continues to deteriorate. 452 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:12,440 I don't know what other word to use, but that's 453 00:25:12,759 --> 00:25:17,519 a good word. You are going to need what adaptations 454 00:25:17,559 --> 00:25:19,640 to the van so that your chair can get in 455 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:20,000 and out? 456 00:25:20,079 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've got a van. We just need to equip 457 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,640 it so that the wheelchair, this powerchair here can get 458 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,839 in and out like on a lift and stuff like that. 459 00:25:28,319 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 3: Anything else going on that would help. And what I'm 460 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,640 trying to figure out is like if we as a 461 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,599 community were to rally and try to help you, I 462 00:25:35,599 --> 00:25:37,759 think a lot of people want to. They just they 463 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:41,160 need something specific, like the van would be a big thing. 464 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 2: That the van's a big one time kind of need. 465 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,920 Ongoing support for caregiving is an issue because that's going 466 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,920 to cost more and more, so that's more like a 467 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,400 monthly thing. Yeah, and that's going to be an increasing 468 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,319 need as time goes on. You know. The balancing act 469 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,759 here is to try to maintain as much independence and 470 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:12,240 quality of life without it becoming such a financially draining 471 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:18,640 situation or physically taxing situation where everything you're doing all day, 472 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,240 every day is simply trying to stay alive. That's something 473 00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:25,519 I don't want to do at this point, but I 474 00:26:25,559 --> 00:26:27,519 don't know where the cut off line is and I 475 00:26:27,559 --> 00:26:29,960 don't know how to balance that. So it's just to 476 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,000 figure it out as we go along kind of thing. 477 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 3: And it's insane to live in a developed country where 478 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,799 a major medical event can bankrupt you and those you know, 479 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,720 and it's stupid. 480 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 2: I've known of als people who spent hundreds of thousands 481 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,160 of dollars a year on just caregiving. And I don't 482 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,799 fault anyone for whatever decisions they make, but at some 483 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,079 point you're just bankrupting yourself and others to stay alive 484 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,119 and there's no quality of life there. So it's a tough, 485 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,960 tough line to draw it and figure out. It's just tough. 486 00:27:04,079 --> 00:27:05,559 There's no other ways about it. 487 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,599 Speaker 3: Well, Dave, I'm blowing smoke at you when I say 488 00:27:08,599 --> 00:27:11,279 it's I mean, it's good to see you. 489 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 2: You too, and it's. 490 00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 3: Good to see your face. It's good to see to 491 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,200 hear your voice, and your voice is strong. Still, I 492 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,480 don't care what you say to hear you speak at 493 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:20,960 a time when I worried if you would have the 494 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,200 ability to speak, and you're still speaking and thinking and 495 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,200 taking your journey, and you're being pretty raw about it, 496 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,000 and I think people can respect that. Some people can 497 00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:33,559 respect that, maybe some not so much. But you're out 498 00:27:33,599 --> 00:27:36,400 there front and center and people know where you are. 499 00:27:36,839 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 2: You've been a good friend. So I'll ask you a question. 500 00:27:40,759 --> 00:27:43,960 Uh oh, okay on camera. You can't edit this out. 501 00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 3: I won't edit this out. 502 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 2: I know how you are with the editor. 503 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,559 Speaker 3: I won't. I know your editor very well. 504 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 2: All right, hit me when the time comes. I don't 505 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,920 know how far it is in the future. Yeah, will 506 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,000 you speak at my funeral? 507 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, yes I will. I'd be honored. 508 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: I'd be honored for you to do it. I can 509 00:28:12,039 --> 00:28:13,119 think of no one better. 510 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 3: That was unexpected. Well, you're a brother. There's no place 511 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,039 I would rather be on that day And I'll be 512 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:27,519 there for you. 513 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:28,519 Speaker 2: Thank you. 514 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, that request at the end was unexpected. Now as 515 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,359 I finish here, I just was thinking, maybe you and 516 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,880 I could help be a solution to the challenge of 517 00:28:47,079 --> 00:28:51,200 having you know your body deteriorates with the increasing medical 518 00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:55,160 and living expenses. I know that it has been a 519 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,799 burden forum and this could be our chance to help. 520 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,079 So in the description box there is a link go 521 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,599 fund me link if you would like to donate and 522 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,839 help Dave and his support team, which I think is 523 00:29:08,039 --> 00:29:10,640 Bevin mostly. If you want to be a part of that, 524 00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:13,519 I know it would be greatly appreciated. Our chance to 525 00:29:13,559 --> 00:29:17,240 do something good for someone who's going through something that's 526 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,759 really bad. So anyway, that link is in the description box. 527 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,680 Thank you so much for listening. 528 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a 529 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,079 complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and 530 00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:34,759 t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist 531 00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:38,480 pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events 532 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:45,599 and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.