1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind of Low Murder. 2 00:00:03,319 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 2: Listeners in the Washington, DC area. We hope. My name 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,759 is Thomas Next. I'm a writer, a consulting producer, and 4 00:00:11,199 --> 00:00:17,399 I am now the mox public other victims of violent crime, 5 00:00:17,679 --> 00:00:20,640 how worse time crime, and I think it'll murder. It's 6 00:00:20,679 --> 00:00:24,239 really interesting, special and we hope to see Facebook group 7 00:00:24,359 --> 00:00:26,000 together with Saturday. 8 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,079 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 10 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 11 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,119 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:41,920 Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 13 00:00:42,079 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 3: It's cold day here in coastal Virginia. It's probably equally 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:49,359 as cold up there. 16 00:00:50,039 --> 00:00:52,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's in the low twenties with a stiff wind. 17 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:53,719 I'm not loving it. 18 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 3: So we want to try to give you something interesting 19 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,439 to curl up with when you decide to stay inside 20 00:01:01,439 --> 00:01:03,039 and catch up on your podcasts. 21 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 2: And then, of course I'm hoping the weather won't be 22 00:01:05,359 --> 00:01:08,120 too cold because I'm going to be heading your way soon. 23 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,519 We're speaking Saturday, January twenty fifth. 24 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 3: That's right. We are going to be at the Montclair 25 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,159 Public Library, which is right outside of Washington, d C. 26 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:21,239 We are going to be appearing at there by the 27 00:01:21,239 --> 00:01:26,040 book Mini con along with various other assorted guests, and 28 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,319 we are really looking forward to that. So we do 29 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,680 encourage you come hang out with us for a little 30 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:32,879 bit as much time as you would like, a little 31 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:34,920 or a lot. Spend a little bit of time with us. 32 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,319 We're going to talk about advocacy and what that looks like. 33 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,280 We'll fill you in on any developments in the Colonial 34 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:45,840 Parkway murders, and we'll be available to take selfies, sign autographs, 35 00:01:45,879 --> 00:01:49,519 and generally answer your questions. So please do join us. 36 00:01:49,799 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: So Saturday, January twenty fifth, Montclair, Virginia at the Montclair 37 00:01:55,439 --> 00:01:59,280 Public Library. Beautiful facility. I think it's going to be 38 00:01:59,319 --> 00:02:00,959 a very energy afternoon. 39 00:02:01,599 --> 00:02:04,159 Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to it. We would also encourage you, 40 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,560 if you were in the DC area to stop by 41 00:02:06,879 --> 00:02:10,879 the Smithsonian American History Museum and check out a truly 42 00:02:11,479 --> 00:02:15,919 fantastic new exhibit that they have running called Forensic Science 43 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:23,159 on Trial. It basically encapsulates some of the forensic science 44 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,039 hits and misses over the years, things that have become 45 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,240 very popular but maybe don't always necessarily work to get 46 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,400 the conviction that is needed. For example, they have a 47 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:41,680 section on forensic odontology and bikemark analysis. They have a 48 00:02:41,719 --> 00:02:46,199 section on the polygraph and the sort of issues that 49 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,479 come up with the polygraph. There's a section on handwriting analysis. 50 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:56,520 I saw this exhibit when I was chaperoning the Senior 51 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,039 field trip to Washington, d C. In December, and I 52 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:02,360 have not been able to stop thinking about this exhibit. 53 00:03:02,479 --> 00:03:06,520 I do encourage anybody who's interested in forensic science stop 54 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,080 by the Smithsonian check it out. It's a wonderful exhibit. 55 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,080 It will definitely give you a lot to think about. Also, 56 00:03:13,159 --> 00:03:16,159 it's just good fun to go to the American History Museum. 57 00:03:16,159 --> 00:03:19,159 There's so many wonderful things there. But I do encourage 58 00:03:19,199 --> 00:03:21,439 you to catch this exhibit if you are in and 59 00:03:21,479 --> 00:03:25,000 around the DC or Maryland area and are able to 60 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,159 get up there. All the Smithsonian museums are free if 61 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:31,719 you've never been to one, and they're just a wonderful experience. 62 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,000 Do try to catch that exhibit if you possibly can. 63 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:37,400 And we are going to use that exhibit as the 64 00:03:37,479 --> 00:03:40,280 jumping off point for a series of episodes that we're 65 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:44,599 going to do throughout the year about forensic science and 66 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,599 taking a deep dive into some of these same topics, 67 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:54,560 but mark analysis, holigraphy, handwriting analysis. We're very excited by this, 68 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,919 and when we put this up on social media and 69 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,599 floated it as a test balloon, you all seem to 70 00:03:59,599 --> 00:04:02,919 be pretty excited about it too. We're going to embark 71 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,439 on this throughout the year and we hope that you 72 00:04:05,479 --> 00:04:07,479 will find it interesting and instructive. 73 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:09,719 Speaker 2: One of the things we're going to be trying to 74 00:04:09,759 --> 00:04:12,120 schedule in the coming weeks and we'll reach out to 75 00:04:12,159 --> 00:04:15,599 her is our friend. Lisa Ribakoff was one of the 76 00:04:15,599 --> 00:04:19,079 people who responded to this thread. Kristen had put out 77 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:24,639 the question about forensic science and questions about various techniques, 78 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,800 and there are aspects of forensic science that have changed 79 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,040 a lot. Of course, now these days we talk about 80 00:04:30,519 --> 00:04:35,000 DNA quite a bit. The purpose of the Smithsonian exhibit 81 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,040 is to go back and look at a number of 82 00:04:37,079 --> 00:04:41,360 different scientific techniques, some of which fallen into disfavor. Lisa 83 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,639 Ribakoff was one of the people who responded. She herself 84 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:50,399 as a polygraphic examiner of significant repute. She's on the 85 00:04:50,519 --> 00:04:55,399 National Organization that A credits polygraph examiners. Sometimes I want 86 00:04:55,439 --> 00:04:57,680 to call them polygraphers, but that makes them sound like 87 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,639 they have multiple spouses. 88 00:05:01,199 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 3: I didn't even think about it that way because I 89 00:05:04,199 --> 00:05:06,600 have been saying polygraphers, and now that you put it 90 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,480 that way, I can't ever say it that way again. 91 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:15,079 Speaker 2: Somehow I stumble on polygraphers. Lisa's absolutely wonderful. You may 92 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:17,720 recall she was on the podcast with us about a 93 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:22,120 year ago talking about the Colonial Parkway murders and how 94 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,360 polygraphy was used in that case. We'd love to have 95 00:05:26,439 --> 00:05:28,240 her back, and we'll reach out to her and see 96 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,000 if we can get her schedule for some time in 97 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,480 the next few weeks. She's got a lot going on 98 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,560 with her professional career and was recently married, so she's 99 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,439 got tons of stuff going on. But we'll reach out 100 00:05:40,439 --> 00:05:42,000 to her and see if we can get her booked 101 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:48,360 and school us further on polygraphic examinations and how they 102 00:05:48,399 --> 00:05:53,040 work and how they can be used. Most effectively, interestingly, 103 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,439 she was one of the people that jumped right into 104 00:05:55,519 --> 00:05:56,839 that thread that you started. 105 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was very interesting to see how much many 106 00:06:00,199 --> 00:06:02,639 people had suggestions for things that they would like to 107 00:06:02,639 --> 00:06:04,720 see us cover. So we're going to try to take 108 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,959 note of as many of those as we can and 109 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,600 see how many experts we can find to talk about 110 00:06:10,639 --> 00:06:14,120 those various techniques. So we're really looking forward to that. 111 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,879 In that same vein, I was reading the New York 112 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,079 Times magazine this past weekend, as I so often do. 113 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,360 I found a story that I wanted to share with Bill, 114 00:06:24,519 --> 00:06:26,800 and so I sent it and said, I think this 115 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,360 would be interesting to talk about on the podcast. It 116 00:06:30,519 --> 00:06:34,279 was a quite upsetting and rather tragic story about a 117 00:06:34,399 --> 00:06:38,639 family who has come under a cloud of suspicion, which 118 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,160 is the name of the long form piece that we're 119 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:44,920 going to talk about today, when one of their children 120 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:50,759 fell ill mysteriously and the parents were accused of being abusive. 121 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:56,199 While that is not the case, the legal community surrounding 122 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:01,560 them has leaned more toward the idea that when babies 123 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,360 appear with this sort of injury, the same one that 124 00:07:04,399 --> 00:07:08,839 this small child had, it is largely because of abuse 125 00:07:08,879 --> 00:07:11,079 from a parent. So this is a family that is 126 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,839 trying to clear their name of wrongful abuse charges, and 127 00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:19,040 the uphill battle that they are facing as a result. 128 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,800 As soon as I read this, I sent it to 129 00:07:20,839 --> 00:07:22,680 Bill and said, we have to cover this on the pod. 130 00:07:23,399 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: It's a fascinating article. As Kristen said, it's very moving. 131 00:07:27,439 --> 00:07:31,000 The headline from the New York Times magazine he dialed 132 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,480 nine to eleven to save his baby, then his children 133 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:40,519 were taken away. The controversial medical diagnosis of shaken baby 134 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,879 syndrome and send parents to jail. What if the symptoms 135 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,720 are caused by something else? And it's by a woman 136 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,319 named Pamela Koloff who's a writer for Pro Publica and 137 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,360 she covers criminal justice. Tell us a little bit about 138 00:07:55,399 --> 00:07:55,959 this article. 139 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 3: This was first published on December twenty ninth, twenty two, 140 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,720 twenty four And as soon as I saw it and 141 00:08:03,759 --> 00:08:07,759 that really interesting slugline that you just read about shaking 142 00:08:07,839 --> 00:08:10,399 baby syndrome, I was like, that's it. I've got it. 143 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,120 I want to read about this. What we thought we 144 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,920 would do is we sometimes do with long form articles 145 00:08:15,959 --> 00:08:19,920 here because we know not everyone has the time to 146 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,319 devote to reading a piece like this. We're going to 147 00:08:23,399 --> 00:08:26,920 go ahead and read this to you with our additional 148 00:08:26,959 --> 00:08:31,560 commentary in between paragraphs and ask some very I think 149 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:37,279 concerning questions that arise around this idea of shaken baby syndrome. 150 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:40,960 And I know Bill, you also had some questions and 151 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,720 emotions that it brought up for you. So I'm going 152 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:47,279 to have you share your experience in this realm as well. 153 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,720 The article is called A Cloud of Suspicion by Pamela Koloff. 154 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,399 I was interested to note that she writes about the 155 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,759 factors that lead to wrongful conviction. On the nine one 156 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,679 one call, Nick Flannery's voice was frantic as he tried 157 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,960 to revive his infant son. Come on, buddy, he pleaded 158 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,840 with the two month old who had gone limp. Come on, buddy, breathe. Nick, 159 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,200 who was on paternity leave from his IT job, was 160 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,879 caring for his two boys while his wife, Felicia, was 161 00:09:14,919 --> 00:09:18,000 at a doctor's appointment. Not long before he called nine 162 00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:21,879 one one. On September seventh, twenty twenty three, his baby, Arlow, 163 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,080 vomited while being given a bottle. Nick, who was cradling him, 164 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,279 turned him over to ensure that he did not choke, 165 00:09:27,519 --> 00:09:29,559 then changed him into fresh clothes and put him in 166 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,919 his bouncy seat. Suddenly, Arlow's eyes rolled back and his 167 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,600 body stiffened and then he went still. Paramedics rushed to 168 00:09:36,639 --> 00:09:40,279 the Flannery's house in Blue Ash, Ohio, a suburb of Cincinnati. 169 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,080 They revived the infant, but his breathing remained shallow. Felicia, 170 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,559 who returned home to find emergency medical workers swarming her driveway, 171 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,039 staggered across the front yard toward her family, uncomprehending. 172 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,159 Speaker 2: In the emergency room at Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center, 173 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,679 the Flanneries looked on as the doctors worked to save 174 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,200 their life. So soon a social worker took them aside. 175 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,440 She explained that a CT scan revealed the presence of 176 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:12,080 subdermable hematomas, or bleeding between the brain and skull, a 177 00:10:12,159 --> 00:10:16,440 symptom she said, commonly seen in abuse cases. Nick and 178 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,399 Felicia were dumbfounded. More tests still needed to be run, 179 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,639 she told the Flanneries, but mandatory reporting laws required that 180 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:30,399 the police and child welfare officials be alerted. Nick and Felicia, upset, 181 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,919 but certain that any concerns would be allayed since doctors 182 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:38,399 gathered more information, said they understood. Detectives arrived, and the 183 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:43,120 attending physician told them that subdural hematomas could indicate that 184 00:10:43,159 --> 00:10:46,519 there was an underlying medical condition, or that the baby 185 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,960 had been shaken. It was the second scenario that Felicia 186 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,080 remembers the doctor mentioning to her that evening. I'll never 187 00:10:54,159 --> 00:10:57,360 forget him telling me, you probably know this as shaken 188 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,879 baby syndrome, she said. Felicia, having once listened to a 189 00:11:01,919 --> 00:11:06,600 podcast that characterized the diagnosis as controversial, grew alarmed. 190 00:11:08,519 --> 00:11:12,279 Speaker 3: No outward signs suggested that Arlow had endured harm. Arlow 191 00:11:12,399 --> 00:11:14,360 is a nicknamed his parents asked that I used to 192 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,440 protect his privacy. He had no bruises, scratches, or cuts, 193 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,279 no external evidence of head trauma like a scalp injury 194 00:11:21,399 --> 00:11:24,720 or a skull fracture, no broken bones, no symptoms of 195 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:28,519 neglect or malnutrition. Nick and Felicia were his sole caregivers, 196 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,200 and neither of them had any previous interaction with child 197 00:11:31,279 --> 00:11:35,600 protective services or a criminal history. The next day, as 198 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,440 they sat at their son's bedside in the pediatric ICU, 199 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,440 they were visited by two doctors with the hospital's child 200 00:11:41,519 --> 00:11:44,919 abuse team, Doctor Stephen Famm, who was halfway through a 201 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,279 three year fellowship in child abuse pediatrics, and doctor Pritima Shambang, 202 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:54,639 a child abuse pediatrician, each closely examined Arlow. Child abuse 203 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,759 pediatrics is a relatively new subspecialty whose practitioners work closely 204 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:03,080 with police officers and social workers to investigate potential cases 205 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,960 of intentional harm. These physicians are entrusted with a profound 206 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,279 responsibility deciding whether a child's symptoms indicate abuse or are 207 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,679 due to an unrelated medical issue. Their findings often determine 208 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,679 whether parents face criminal charges and whether children are separated 209 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,559 from their families. Boy, I was surprised to learn that 210 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,360 is a subspecialty that we need to have. 211 00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: I didn't know this either. Now let me jump in 212 00:12:30,399 --> 00:12:34,679 with a personal story some years ago, and I'm talking 213 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,080 about twenty five years ago when my son was quite small. 214 00:12:38,159 --> 00:12:40,759 My son, Chris is twenty seven now, so this would 215 00:12:40,759 --> 00:12:44,159 have been twenty five twenty six years ago. Chris was 216 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,200 a baby and we were up here in Connecticut. It 217 00:12:47,279 --> 00:12:50,240 was quite snowy, as I recall, and I was holding 218 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,360 Chris while my ex wife Valerie was making dinner. I 219 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,320 was holding him and walking into the living room, and 220 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,519 somehow I tripped over our boots which were next to 221 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,159 the back door. I stumbled quite badly. And those of 222 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,279 you that have had children will know what I'm talking about. 223 00:13:10,639 --> 00:13:16,000 Baby's heads are incredibly heavy in relation to their body weight. 224 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:19,879 So when you're holding a child, and you're typically holding 225 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:23,559 the baby and holding their head in one hand while 226 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,240 you hold the usually there but in the other. When 227 00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:32,639 I stumbled, I lost Christopher. He flipped end over end. 228 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,039 Remember how heavy the head is, so he did a 229 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,159 loop the loop in the air, and then he landed 230 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,399 on the oriental rug in the living room of this 231 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,360 little weekend house that we had, and he hit hard 232 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:50,279 and he started crying, and I was completely mortified. I 233 00:13:50,279 --> 00:13:53,480 had fallen to my knees when I stumbled over the boots, 234 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:59,759 lost Chris. He goes flying. I grab him. I called 235 00:13:59,799 --> 00:14:03,720 out to Valerie and said I dropped the baby or 236 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:08,559 something like that. She came running in and we were terrified. 237 00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:11,120 We remember where new parents, we never had a baby before. 238 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,720 Chris was crying, he seemed okay, but we were so 239 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:20,039 shaken up that we immediately stopped cooking dinner, put our 240 00:14:20,039 --> 00:14:23,840 boots on, put our winter coats on, and headed out 241 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,480 into the night. And we went to the emergency room 242 00:14:27,639 --> 00:14:31,240 in Wednstead, Connecticut, which is about I'm probably close to 243 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:33,600 ten miles away. We're way out in the country out here. 244 00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:38,559 When I brought him into the emergency room, he had 245 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,559 calmed down, but we were just very shaken up by 246 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,519 the whole experience. We brought him in, we explained what 247 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,960 had happened. The doctors and the nurses were wonderful, but 248 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,759 one of the things we realized pretty quickly was they 249 00:14:52,759 --> 00:14:56,120 made a point of separating us. And of course we 250 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,240 were nervous and upset about what had happened, and we 251 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,360 wanted to be together with Chris, and they wanted to 252 00:15:04,399 --> 00:15:08,840 separate us. And it wasn't until a little further into 253 00:15:08,879 --> 00:15:12,639 the process that I began to realize they wanted to 254 00:15:12,759 --> 00:15:16,559 talk to Valerie without me present because they wanted to 255 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,519 find out if Chris, as a little baby Christopher, was 256 00:15:19,559 --> 00:15:23,759 being subject to abuse. And I didn't feel bad enough 257 00:15:23,799 --> 00:15:28,240 already about what had happened. When they left me alone, 258 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,080 I was actually trying to figure out whether there was 259 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,240 a bridge high enough for me to jump off of, 260 00:15:35,399 --> 00:15:38,480 if there was anything wrong with this beautiful baby that 261 00:15:38,559 --> 00:15:41,720 I had just dropped. Now, thankfully, Chris had a bump 262 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:45,279 on his forehead, but he was fine and we got 263 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,559 through it. But I remember being so shocked when they 264 00:15:49,799 --> 00:15:53,600 separated the two of us. When we got back together, 265 00:15:53,879 --> 00:15:58,519 I realized how they had viewed me as a father 266 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:03,000 that had I was I abusing this child and I 267 00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:06,399 didn't feel bad enough as it was. Now my understanding 268 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,399 from later research is that they do this all the time, 269 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:14,200 that they make certain that child's injuries are not the 270 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,120 result of being abused by the parents or caregiver or 271 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,360 someone like that. But man, it did not feel good, 272 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,879 and we actually realized later there was a possibility they 273 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,759 might have followed up with us social services that didn't 274 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,919 end up happening. I think they ended up accepting our 275 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:36,399 version of what had transpired, which was the truth, of course. 276 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,879 But I don't think I've ever felt worse in my 277 00:16:40,159 --> 00:16:44,159 entire life, more embarrassed and ashamed of tripping and falling 278 00:16:45,159 --> 00:16:46,200 while holding our baby. 279 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: So then I imagine reading this probably struck some chords. 280 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,639 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, when you get into the details and 281 00:16:53,759 --> 00:16:57,840 how the two parents felt with their baby boy Arlow, 282 00:16:58,159 --> 00:17:02,039 it just took me right back to share that terrible night. 283 00:17:02,759 --> 00:17:05,359 Everything worked out fine for us, and Chris was fine, 284 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,880 and he's healthy and twenty seven years old and in 285 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,799 law school. Now our story has a happy ending. But 286 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:17,680 I completely understand the terrible upset that this family went through. 287 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 3: This story continues, fam asks the Flannery is whether anything 288 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,359 had happened to their son, a fall, a car accident 289 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,799 that might account for the bleeding on his brain. More 290 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:29,920 tests still needed to be performed, he said, but the 291 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,119 absence of any reasonable explanation for our low symptoms suggested 292 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,559 that the infant had suffered abusive head trauma. Families using 293 00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:41,839 the term that the American Academy of Pediatrics has recommended 294 00:17:41,839 --> 00:17:45,759 physicians employed since two thousand and nine instead of shaken 295 00:17:45,839 --> 00:17:49,160 baby syndrome. That year, the AAP endorsed the use of 296 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,119 the more comprehensive term abusive head trauma to describe not 297 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,759 only brain, a skull, and spinal injuries that result from shaking, 298 00:17:57,279 --> 00:18:01,079 but also those resulting from blunt impact or a combination 299 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,200 of the two. The name change came amid controversy over 300 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,960 whether shaken baby syndrome signature symptoms brain swelling and bleeding 301 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,240 around the brain and from the retina were always evidence 302 00:18:13,279 --> 00:18:16,440 of abuse. Once believed to be proof of shaking, the 303 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,839 symptoms had by then been shown to have other causes, 304 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:26,480 including accidental falls, illness, infection, and congenital disorders. The courts 305 00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:29,000 took notice, and in two thousand and eight, a Wisconsin 306 00:18:29,039 --> 00:18:32,880 appeals court held that a shift in mainstream medical opinion 307 00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:36,920 raised questions about the diagnosis or assumptions. 308 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 2: It was in the wake of the Wisconsin decision that 309 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,039 the AAP's Committee on Child Abuse and Neglect, a small 310 00:18:45,079 --> 00:18:49,400 group of child abuse specialists, spearheaded the name change. The 311 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,759 committee's work came at a time when confidence was eroding 312 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,079 in a diagnosis that the child protection community saw as 313 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,480 vital to safeguarding children. The new name, abusive head trauma, 314 00:19:00,759 --> 00:19:03,559 was not only more precise, according to its two thousand 315 00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:06,839 and nine consensus statement on the matter, it would also 316 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,640 show up credibility in the courts. Quote legal challenges to 317 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,559 the term shaken baby syndrome can distract from the more 318 00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:18,240 important questions of accountability of the perpetrator and the safety 319 00:19:18,279 --> 00:19:21,920 of the victim, the statement read. Fifteen years later, the 320 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:27,279 diagnosis is still shaping criminal prosecutions and child welfare investigations. 321 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,680 Child abuse pediatricians say they do rigorous work ups to 322 00:19:31,799 --> 00:19:35,720 rule out the possibilities of both natural and accidental causes 323 00:19:35,799 --> 00:19:39,839 before they settle on the diagnosis, but doctors and the police, 324 00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:42,960 prosecutors and judges who look to them for guidance don't 325 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,359 always get it right. Thirty five people whose convictions rested 326 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,240 on the diagnosis are currently listed on the National Registry 327 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,039 of Exonerations, not yet counted as Joshua Byrne, whose wrongful 328 00:19:56,039 --> 00:20:00,400 conviction was vacated by a Michigan court. In November. This year, 329 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:06,079 convictions that hinged on the diagnosis were overturned in California, Kentucky, 330 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:10,200 and Minnesota. In Texas, doubts about the guilt of a 331 00:20:10,279 --> 00:20:15,640 death row inmate, Robertson galvanized a bipartisan group of lawmakers 332 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,279 to call for a wholesale reappraisal of the evidence. The 333 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,559 legal battle that followed succeeded in postponing his scheduled execution 334 00:20:25,039 --> 00:20:28,920 in October. In a similar case in Arkansas, another father, 335 00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:33,559 Cody Webb, was acquitted of capital murder. Some judges, however, 336 00:20:33,599 --> 00:20:38,119 have started looking at the diagnosis with more skepticism. Last year, 337 00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:41,000 a new Jersey appellate court back to a lower court 338 00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:45,480 judge who pronounced the diagnosis quote akin to junk science. 339 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 3: Wow, I had no idea that there were that many 340 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:57,480 exoneries that were convicted based on shaken baby syndrome evidence. 341 00:20:57,599 --> 00:21:01,640 That was news to me. Were you familiar with this 342 00:21:01,839 --> 00:21:03,480 many egxoneries on that level. 343 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: No, I've read about shaken baby syndrome. But of course, 344 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,759 in this example, and we'll get into more details as 345 00:21:09,759 --> 00:21:14,720 the article unfolds, there start to be some other very rational, 346 00:21:15,039 --> 00:21:19,839 alternate explanations for why Arlow had bleeding in his brain. 347 00:21:21,039 --> 00:21:22,759 You can see how there might have been a rush 348 00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:24,799 to judgment in some of these cases. 349 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 3: And I think that those sort of rushes to judgment, 350 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,440 I would imagine that they probably happen always with the 351 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,640 best intentions for the child in mind. But where does 352 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,079 that leave the parents who are being accused of something 353 00:21:39,079 --> 00:21:41,240 they did not actually do? That was the big question 354 00:21:41,319 --> 00:21:42,119 that came up for me. 355 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 356 00:21:46,880 --> 00:22:04,799 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 357 00:22:04,799 --> 00:22:05,720 Mind over Murder. 358 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,799 Speaker 3: That tension between child abuse pediatricians who stand by their 359 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:15,799 ability to identify abuse from telltale symptoms and a mounting 360 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,759 number of criminal cases that point to the fallibility of 361 00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:23,880 the diagnosis leave families like the Flanneries vulnerable. Quote. The 362 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,000 rebranding of Shaken Baby syndrome preserved the diagnosis and allowed 363 00:22:28,039 --> 00:22:31,960 it to live on with less scrutiny. Unquote, says Randy Peppetti, 364 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,519 an Arizona trial attorney an author of the twenty eighteen 365 00:22:35,559 --> 00:22:40,960 book The Forensic Unreliability of the Shaken Baby Syndrome. Quote. 366 00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:44,720 Shaken Baby Syndrome is alive and well, but mostly operates 367 00:22:44,839 --> 00:22:48,839 under an alias. Nick and Felicia had been together ever 368 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,839 since they were juniors in high school in Troy, Ohio. 369 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,480 He ernest and mild, mannered, with chunky black glasses that 370 00:22:55,559 --> 00:22:59,200 channeled Buddy Holly. She warm and unguarded with a mane 371 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,079 of red hair. They were strivers intent on muscling their 372 00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:05,880 way out of what Nick called the bottom end of 373 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,160 the lower middle class. He enlisted in the Army to 374 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,039 pay for college, serving a combat deployment to Afghanistan, and 375 00:23:13,079 --> 00:23:16,519 Felicia worked her way into management at a national retail chain. 376 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,480 They were intentional about starting a family, waiting until they 377 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,359 were financially secure enough in their late twenties for Felicia 378 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,640 to stay at home when they had their first child, 379 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,680 Arlow's older brother, in twenty twenty one. They built a 380 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,920 house in a good school district with room for a 381 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,920 big family and painted it a cheerful lavender. The Flanneries 382 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,039 did not hire a lawyer when the specter of abuse 383 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,279 was first raised by doctors. They remained singularly focused on 384 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,640 their infant son, who lay intubated in the pediatric ICU, 385 00:23:50,279 --> 00:23:54,799 his tiny body dwarfed by medical machinery. Before his hospitalization, 386 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,119 they told his pediatrician how he slept so much that 387 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,599 Felicia often had to wake him up for feedings, but 388 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,559 their pediatrician was not overly concerned. Arlow was meeting all 389 00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:09,880 his milestones and appeared to be thriving. Three days after 390 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,240 he arrived at the hospital, he underwent surgery to relieve 391 00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:16,440 the excess fluid that had been building up inside his head. 392 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,519 Nick and Felicia were relieved to see that he gradually 393 00:24:19,599 --> 00:24:21,640 improved with each day that followed. 394 00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:25,759 Speaker 2: Now I would make the point. Actually, I'm not here 395 00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:29,079 to criticize the Flanneries, and I feel really terrible for 396 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,000 this family, but I actually think they should have hired 397 00:24:32,039 --> 00:24:32,480 a lawyer. 398 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, I have not to this point knock 399 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,200 on Wood needed a lawyer for anything other than real 400 00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:42,759 estate transactions. But I think my default stance on anything 401 00:24:43,319 --> 00:24:46,559 regarding law enforcement is going to be I'm hiring a lawyer. 402 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,240 We've heard enough about this stuff by now that it 403 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,039 just seems sensible. You can talk to my attorney. 404 00:24:53,079 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 2: Without a doubt. In a report that FAM forwarded to 405 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,720 the blue Ash Police Department a week after the operation, 406 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:03,039 he wrote that Arlow's symptoms, which a recent exam had 407 00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:09,480 showed included retinal hemorrhages, raised a concern quote unquote for 408 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,640 abusive heptrauma. Further testing, he noted, did not turn up 409 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,799 any evidence of a genetic condition or a bleeding disorder 410 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:20,200 that could explain his symptoms. Though it was not a 411 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,720 definitive diagnosis, it was enough to set in motion a 412 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,440 change of events that would upend the Flanneryes lives. Two 413 00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:32,920 days later, on September twenty, twenty twenty three, a social 414 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,799 worker went to their home to inform them that Hamilton 415 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,240 County Job and Family Services, which oversees child protective services 416 00:25:40,279 --> 00:25:43,680 for the area, was filing for temporary custody of their children. 417 00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:48,160 Moments later, Blue Ash Police detectives served a search warrant 418 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,759 demanding that the Flanneries allow them entry and turn over 419 00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:58,000 their phones, police body cameras, captured the Flannery's anguish, Nick buckled, 420 00:25:58,039 --> 00:26:01,920 nearly falling to his knees. Felicia, wide eyed, stared back 421 00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:04,839 at the officer's hardened expressions. 422 00:26:05,839 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 3: What followed was a grinding, bureaucratic journey that stripped them 423 00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:13,200 of everything they had worked so hard to build. They 424 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,200 were forbidden to take Arlow home when he was released 425 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,400 after a two weeks stay at the hospital. A court 426 00:26:19,519 --> 00:26:22,680 order mandated that he and his brother live with Felicia's aunt, 427 00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:27,759 limited to supervised interactions with their children. Nick and Felicia 428 00:26:27,839 --> 00:26:30,799 did everything they could to maintain a sense of normalcy, 429 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,480 arriving at the aunt's house each morning before dawn so 430 00:26:34,559 --> 00:26:37,079 they could be there when the boys awoke, and caring 431 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,440 for them throughout the day until Felicia nursed Arlow to sleep. 432 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,240 Barred from spending the night, they return home each evening 433 00:26:44,319 --> 00:26:47,559 to an empty house, desperate to be a family again 434 00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:50,599 and hoping that voluntarily submitting to an extra degree of 435 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,240 scrutiny might convince the authorities that they had nothing to hide. 436 00:26:54,319 --> 00:26:57,559 The Flannerys had cameras installed in every room of their house. 437 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,519 At a hearing in Hamilton County, give and I'll Court 438 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:05,000 that October, Magistrate Nicholas Varney offered a tentative path forward. 439 00:27:05,519 --> 00:27:09,319 The children could return home, but under strict conditions. Nick 440 00:27:09,319 --> 00:27:12,559 and Felicia were barred from being alone with them, and 441 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,519 the boys' grandmothers, who had come to court and volunteered 442 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:20,119 to help, agreed to take turns and maintain a constant presence. 443 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,640 This is heartbreaking, what a nightmare for any parent. 444 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,759 Speaker 2: And this seems like such overreach too. Why couldn't they 445 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,039 spend the night if the aunt was there? And then 446 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:38,720 later you have the two grandmothers volunteering to effectively supervise. 447 00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:45,599 I don't understand how if other responsible adults, the aunt, 448 00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:50,039 the two grandmothers were in the house, why would Nick 449 00:27:50,079 --> 00:27:52,839 and Felicia not even be allowed to spend the night 450 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,640 in the home. I thought that was shocking. This felt 451 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,039 overreach is the right word. 452 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 3: It does. And again I'm sure that someone out there 453 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:03,519 was thinking, we're doing what's best for the children, But 454 00:28:03,599 --> 00:28:06,279 look what you're doing to the adults, who at this 455 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,559 point have never been proven guilty of doing anything wrong 456 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:10,799 at all. 457 00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:15,079 Speaker 2: And there's a reference a few paragraphs back about how 458 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,880 much Arlow slept when he was a little baby that 459 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,880 I think is incredibly important because, as it turns out, 460 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,079 there are conditions in the early part of Arlow's life 461 00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:32,599 that could have explained what was happening here with the 462 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,519 brain bleeds. So the story continues. The threat of losing 463 00:28:36,559 --> 00:28:40,880 their children never went away. A caseworker would appear unannounced, 464 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:45,319 entering their home and probing whether the flanneryes had deviated 465 00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:49,400 in any way from the court order. Their original caseworker 466 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,720 and then her replacement often sought to get Felicia alone, 467 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,279 pressing her to accept that her husband was an abuser. Quote. 468 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,240 I was not seen as part detective of my children 469 00:29:01,599 --> 00:29:05,400 because I did not believe that Nick hurt our son quote, 470 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,680 she told me in November hearing, a prosecuting attorney put 471 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,480 the county's objectives plainly. We maintained that the Flannery children 472 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,279 would be at imminent risk of harm if they were 473 00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:20,079 to reside in the parents' home today and were custody, 474 00:29:20,279 --> 00:29:24,359 not to be granted to job and family services. I 475 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:25,880 find this so disturbing. 476 00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 3: Yes. 477 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 2: Then on January third, Blue Ash Police detectives made an 478 00:29:31,799 --> 00:29:38,079 unannounced visit, arresting Nick on assault and child endangerment charges. Nick, 479 00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:41,160 who was handcuffed in front of the older son. Was 480 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,200 careful not to react. I knew they wanted to see 481 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,599 me as this horrible, violent person with a hairpin trigger, 482 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,720 he says. From that moment forward, the Flanneries found themselves 483 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,839 in parallel legal battles, one in juvenile court over the 484 00:29:55,839 --> 00:29:59,960 custody of their children and another in criminal court, where 485 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,839 Nick faced prosecution. 486 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 3: At this point, I was like, what is happening here? 487 00:30:06,079 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, this feels like such a nightmare. And this is 488 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,759 every parent's nightmare. 489 00:30:11,119 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 3: Not having been a parent and not ever wanting to 490 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,960 be a parent, I have no understanding of this. But you, 491 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,920 as a parent, I'm sure you were looking at this 492 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,160 and going, oh my god. 493 00:30:20,359 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: And you try to put yourself in that situation, and 494 00:30:24,559 --> 00:30:28,799 what would you choose to do. It's just horrible. I 495 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,319 know we've used that word before, but this feels like 496 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,079 such overreach by Child and Protective Services. 497 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,079 Speaker 3: Two days after his arrest, when he was said to 498 00:30:38,079 --> 00:30:41,039 be released on bond, the Flannery's caseworker arrived at the 499 00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:44,519 house without warning their Nick was within his rights to 500 00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:47,799 return home the court had not imposed no contact order. 501 00:30:48,119 --> 00:30:52,119 The caseworker removed the infant in toddler That afternoon, Felicia 502 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,000 hurriedly nursed Arlow before he was taken away. I was 503 00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:57,839 sitting on the stairs, just crying and crying. Felicia told 504 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,960 me my toddler started wiping my tears away, and I 505 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,920 remember thinking I have to get it together because this 506 00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:07,200 might be the last time I ever see them. The 507 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,680 boys were not placed in foster care, as she had 508 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,160 been told was a possibility. They went to her aunt, 509 00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:14,519 and they were returned home the following week at the 510 00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:17,359 direction of the juvenile Court. But the knowledge that her 511 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,559 children could be taken from her at any moment left 512 00:31:19,559 --> 00:31:22,400 her unmoored. Stalked by the fear of what might happen 513 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,720 if one of the boys fell or hurt themselves, she 514 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,279 rarely left home, trusting the cameras she'd installed to document 515 00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:32,839 her every interaction with her children. She inexscrupulously followed the 516 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,240 court's order to have an approved family member present around 517 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,039 the clock, but she began losing sleep over any possible breach, 518 00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:44,759 even imagined that could cost them custody. I started having nightmares, 519 00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:47,519 she said. Where the nightmare was that I was found 520 00:31:47,519 --> 00:31:48,599 alone with my children. 521 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 2: The Flanneryes, felt certain there was a logical explanation for 522 00:31:53,599 --> 00:31:56,839 Arlow's symptoms, and they began to piece together what they knew, 523 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,519 starting with his difficult delivery, which had aim ended in 524 00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:04,680 an emergency cesarean section. More than twenty four hours of 525 00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:09,400 labor augmented with potocin to make contractions stronger, had left 526 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,680 a deep hollow above his forehead. The Flanneries had been 527 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,079 assured this was a normal consequence of a challenging delivery, 528 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:22,880 and the indentation, though conspicuous, had eventually gone away. In retrospect, 529 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,160 they wondered if this had anything to do with the 530 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,519 bleeding in his brain. Also notable looking back was the 531 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:34,640 drastic increase in Arlow's head circumference in the weeks after 532 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,440 his birth. By one month, his medical record showed he 533 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,759 had leaped from the eighty first percentile for head size 534 00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:45,759 to the ninety ninth, which was a possible cause for concern. 535 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,480 The Flanneries had been told that his head growth would 536 00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:52,079 have to be monitored. If it continued to expand at 537 00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:54,559 the same rate, he would be referred to a specialist 538 00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:58,519 for evaluation. His next head measurement was scheduled to be 539 00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:02,599 taken the day after after Nick called nine one one. 540 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,319 As their questions multiplied, the Flanneries consulted three doctors, a 541 00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:10,440 pediatrician who was qualified to testify in court as a 542 00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:16,079 child abuse expert, a pediatric neurologist, and a radiologist. After 543 00:33:16,119 --> 00:33:20,519 studying Arlow's medical records and imaging, they each concluded that 544 00:33:20,599 --> 00:33:23,839 he had not suffered a sudden trauma just before he 545 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,759 was rushed to the er. In written reports and in 546 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,119 later testimony given in juvenile court by two of the experts, 547 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,400 they laid out their findings. Arlow, they determined, had a 548 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,599 pre existing health condition. The bleeding on his brain was chronic, 549 00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:43,920 most likely originating at birth. Fluid had then collected between 550 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,839 his brain and skull and pressure built, eventually triggering seizures. 551 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,880 This explained Arlow's rapid head growth and excessive sleepiness that 552 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,640 the Flanneries had reported to their pediatrician. 553 00:33:56,079 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 3: That makes a lot of sense, and ultimately, the one 554 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,079 photo that shocked me most out of this whole entire 555 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,279 article was the one where you can see when Nick 556 00:34:06,359 --> 00:34:11,239 is holding Arlow, this drastic, very deep hollow above his forehead. 557 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,159 It was shocking to me. I'd always heard that babies 558 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:19,079 have very soft heads, and that you can't actually dentt 559 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:22,559 a baby's head. My poor boyfriend will absolutely murder me 560 00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:25,639 for saying this. But he's actually got a flat spot 561 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,920 on the back of his head where he was left 562 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,880 lane still for too long when he was a baby. 563 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,119 So I do know that skulls can be malleable in 564 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:37,440 young babies. But the photo that I saw of this 565 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,599 divot in his forehead, that was terrifying. And so then 566 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,119 when I read this, I was like, oh, that that 567 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:45,679 makes a lot of sense. Having read that, does that 568 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:46,360 make sense to you? 569 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 2: It does? And I remember when Chris fell or I 570 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,639 dropped him. They talked about how when your little Chris 571 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,480 was probably six months old or so when our incident happened, 572 00:34:59,079 --> 00:35:01,400 the top of your head when you're a little kid 573 00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:05,079 has a soft spot because the skull has not completely 574 00:35:05,159 --> 00:35:08,239 knitted together, because it has to have room to grow, 575 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,119 just like we're seeing with Arlow here. The crazy thing is, 576 00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:16,280 there doesn't seem to be any openness on the part 577 00:35:16,519 --> 00:35:22,719 of these pediatric abuse specialists to the possibility that Arlow's 578 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,840 condition may have much more to do with his difficult 579 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,079 birth than it would have been with abuse at the 580 00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:30,960 hands of his father. 581 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 3: In his report, FAM dismissed the idea that Arlow's birth 582 00:35:35,079 --> 00:35:37,519 was to blame, pointing to the baby's sudden collapse a 583 00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:40,719 full two months after he was born. Fam made no 584 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,559 mention of the details in Arlow's medical records that noted 585 00:35:43,559 --> 00:35:46,440 the baby's head circumference at one month, or the unusual 586 00:35:46,519 --> 00:35:49,639 rate of growth that his pediatrician had flagged for further monitoring, 587 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,760 but several facts in the medical records suggested an ongoing condition. 588 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,239 In addition to his quickly expanding head circumference, there was 589 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,920 his printounce sleepiness, possibly a symptom of seizures related to 590 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,159 fluid around the brain. There were also the post operative 591 00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:08,519 notes of Arlow's neurosurgeon, which described the subdural hematomas as chronic, 592 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,000 suggesting that they had been present for an indeterminate period 593 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,760 of time. The blood on the infant's brain was straw colored, 594 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,679 the surgeon had observed, not the pink or red typically 595 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,760 associated with acute trauma. During a twenty twenty three juvenile 596 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,440 court hearing, Fam acknowledged speaking with the neurosurgeon and reviewing 597 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,840 the surgical notes, but he said he did not include 598 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,519 them in his report because he focused on other indicators, 599 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,960 such as Arlow's rapid decline. The thing that I focused 600 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,360 on is his acute presentation. 601 00:36:36,639 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 2: Pam said, I think this is shocking that the doctor 602 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,519 is not really including a more complete picture of what 603 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,599 has happened to Arlow. And I feel like he's focusing 604 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,960 only on evidence of abuse and not offering a more 605 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,840 complete picture which might indicate that this is not the 606 00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:00,920 result of abuse. 607 00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:05,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, he is cherry picking his evidence and they're just 608 00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:09,320 really just seems very irresponsible. I wanted to better understand 609 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,360 FAM's perspective and that of the pediatrician who examined Arlow 610 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,039 with him, Shaanbag. The Flannerys agreed to provide a letter 611 00:37:16,079 --> 00:37:18,440 authorizing the doctors to talk to me about their son's 612 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,760 protected health information, but a spokesperson for Cincinnati Children's declined 613 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,079 to make them available for an interview. The hospital also 614 00:37:26,159 --> 00:37:29,480 did not respond to a detailed list of questions. The 615 00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:32,519 flannery Is believed that the new expert opinions provided by 616 00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:36,000 the three doctors would exonerate nick. I thought investigators would 617 00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:38,880 consult the doctors we were talking to, and this whole 618 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,079 misunderstanding would be swept away. Felicia says, and this is 619 00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:44,199 where the butt comes in. 620 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,559 Speaker 2: But the suspicion of abusive head trauma, once raised, is 621 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:54,280 hard to undo. Christina Kerlis, a Las Vegas mother I 622 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,760 spoke with whose two year old Jokai Davis was rushed 623 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,079 to the hospital in twenty eighteen in cardiac arrast, told 624 00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:05,960 me that the doctors developed quote tunnel vision unquote after 625 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,920 finding her son had the diagnosis signature symptoms. Jokai died 626 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,320 three days later, and she was charged with murder. It 627 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,760 took years of legal wrangling, during which her three other 628 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,559 children were removed from her custody, for Kurlos to be vindicated. 629 00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:26,400 Prosecutors dropped charges in twenty twenty two after the defense's 630 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,480 medical experts determined that Jokai died from complications of sickle 631 00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:34,119 cell trait and inherited blood disorder. 632 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 3: Oh wow, I know. 633 00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 2: It's just a horrible story. Even if parents who were 634 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,119 accused challenge and abusive head trauma diagnosis with medical experts 635 00:38:45,159 --> 00:38:49,159 of their own, prosecutors tend to view these witnesses cynically. 636 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,239 Their distrust stems from a core belief among some child 637 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,920 advocates that physicians who questioned the diagnosis whom some dismiss 638 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:04,079 as denialists are back actors. Quote denialists persist in generating 639 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:09,840 false controversy against the diagnosis of AHT and unwarranted skepticism 640 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,400 about shaking being an important mechanism of AGET, states an 641 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,920 opinion essay written by three prominent child abuse experts who 642 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,280 appeared last year in Drama Pediatrics, the Journal of the 643 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:28,760 American Medical Association. Quote, misinformation generated by science denialists may 644 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,840 harm children unquote. 645 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 3: I don't love this idea that being skeptical means you're 646 00:39:35,039 --> 00:39:39,400 being a science denialist. I feel like that's those aren't 647 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:40,159 the same thing. 648 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 2: No, And it's almost like there can only be one viewpoint, 649 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,960 which is, of course, this is abuse. I'm troubled by 650 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,760 this me too. Doctor Cindy Christian, a lead author of 651 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,239 the American Academy of Pediatrics two thousand and nine statement, 652 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,000 called it quote cynical unquote to suggest that the shift 653 00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:03,360 to abusive head trauma was made to evade scrutiny of 654 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,480 the diagnosis. Rather, she wrote in an email, the name 655 00:40:06,559 --> 00:40:10,880 change ensured quote that physicians were using correct terminology in 656 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,840 medical records and in courts. The controversy around shaken baby syndrome, 657 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,920 She added, as largely contained to the legal arena. Quote. 658 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:24,360 The diagnosis is not controversial in children's hospitals around the world, 659 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,559 she wrote, the courtroom is not designed to be an 660 00:40:27,679 --> 00:40:32,360 arbiter of scientific truth. I can't say I completely agree 661 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:33,000 with that either. 662 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,320 Speaker 3: I feel like there's a lot to unpack in some 663 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,239 of these statements. I think. In its most recent policy 664 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,840 statement about the diagnosis, the AAP set in twenty twenty 665 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,920 that the name change to abusive head trauma quote was 666 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,559 misinterpreted by some in the legal and medical communities as 667 00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:54,039 an indication of some doubt in or invalidation of the 668 00:40:54,119 --> 00:40:57,119 diagnosis and the mechanism of shaking as a cause of 669 00:40:57,119 --> 00:41:01,760 injury unquote. The AAP quote continues to embrace the shaken 670 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,480 baby syndrome diagnosis as a valid subset of the AHT diagnosis. 671 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,079 The antipathy for physicians who challenge the diagnosis was hard 672 00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:14,239 to miss at the International Conference on Shaken Baby Syndrome 673 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,360 Abusive Head Trauma held in Salt Lake City in September. 674 00:41:18,159 --> 00:41:22,599 The conference, which draws child abuse pediatricians, social workers, police officers, 675 00:41:22,639 --> 00:41:26,960 and prosecutors, featured multiple presentations that cast doctors who testify 676 00:41:27,079 --> 00:41:31,679 for the defense as both ill informed and mercenary. During 677 00:41:31,679 --> 00:41:36,079 a keynote presentation, Matthew Torbensen, a deputy district attorney in Milwaukee, 678 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,559 questioned whether doctors operate in good faith when they rebut 679 00:41:39,679 --> 00:41:44,800 an abusive head trauma diagnosis. Is that practicing medicine, he 680 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,480 asked a sympathetic crowd, Or is that providing reasonable doubt 681 00:41:48,599 --> 00:41:55,800 for sale? Wow? Yeah, that's a really problematic question. The 682 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,400 expert opinions of doctors from outside the field of child 683 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,880 abuse pediatrics who weigh in a these cases, including radiologists, neurologists, 684 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,519 and pathologists, are rarely given the same deference by the courts, 685 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,079 one reason that most legal efforts to counter the diagnosis fail. 686 00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,679 In July, I chronicled the efforts of prosecutors at the 687 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,880 Nashville District Attorney's office to overturn the two thousand and 688 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:22,320 four shaken Baby conviction of Russell Mays. Those seven medical 689 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,519 experts concluded that his son's death was a result of 690 00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:30,159 natural causes. The presiding judge refused to grant a new trial. 691 00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 2: That's just shocking for the Flanneries. Having three physicians who 692 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,760 provided an alternate explanation for arlow symptoms did not prove 693 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,199 to be enough. During a hearing in juvenile court in March, 694 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,840 Shuanbach took the stand to dismiss the notion that a 695 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,599 birth injury could explain the infants presentation at the er, 696 00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:57,360 emphasizing that abusive head trauma was not the only possible cause. Quote, 697 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,800 there was no other medical condition that could account for 698 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,719 these injuries. She said, yes, there was no. There clearly was. 699 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,159 I think this is absurd and it's painful to see 700 00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:14,079 how rigid and inflexible some of these doctors can be 701 00:43:14,159 --> 00:43:17,760 where they're not even willing to acknowledge that there could 702 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:22,039 be another cause of Arlow's I believe on the brain. 703 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:26,320 After hearing from both sides Varney, the magistrate handed down 704 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,599 a ruling late this summer in which he leaned heavily 705 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,400 on Shanbeg's testimony, finding that the infant had been abused, 706 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,880 color me skeptical. Still, the magistrate was careful to state 707 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,760 that because of doctor's differing opinions, both the quote origin 708 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,840 and cause of the injuries remained unknown unquote. The attorneys 709 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,159 with whom the Flanneries retained to represent them in juvenile Court, 710 00:43:52,559 --> 00:43:57,280 James Whitfield and Aaron Rapier criticized this conclusion as logically 711 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,880 inconsistent with the finding of abuse and the equivalent of 712 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:06,400 claiming quote there may be abuse without any abuser unquote. 713 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,920 Guardian ad Ltem, the attorney appointed by the court to 714 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,159 represent Arlow's interests, oppose the magistrates ruling that abuse had occurred, 715 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,320 noting that such a conclusion was quote not supported by 716 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:24,320 the manifest weight of the evidence. What a nightmare, I 717 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,559 know it, really you feel so bad for these parents. 718 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 3: It's shocking protective orders remain in place, requiring the Flanneries 719 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,400 to keep living under the watchful eyes of family members, 720 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,639 cameras and caseworkers. They have done everything the court has asked, 721 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,840 taking parenting classes, submitting to mental health evaluations, complying with 722 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,159 the safety plan. But more than a year after their 723 00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:52,480 boys were returned home, they are still living in limbo. 724 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,719 We've asked our caseworkers, so what comes next, Felicia says, 725 00:44:57,079 --> 00:44:59,960 and the answer is that they are still pursuing custom. 726 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,760 They offer us no plan, just that we need to 727 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:08,039 say that. Nick Harmed Arlow, a spokesperson for Hamilton County 728 00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:12,039 Job and Family Services, declined to comment on pending litigation. 729 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,760 Felicia longs for their old life, unencumbered by the quiet 730 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,920 terror of an abuse investigation. She looks at other mothers 731 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,000 at the grocery store, mothers who are unaware that their 732 00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:27,559 lives can be turned upside down in an instant, and 733 00:45:27,639 --> 00:45:30,880 she feels like a different species, like an alien. She 734 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,119 told me, Nick speaks of what feels like a primal wound, 735 00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:41,679 the shame and stigma of being called an unfit parent. Still, 736 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,880 the Flanneries know they are lucky. Unlike other parents who 737 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,039 face the same kind of accusations, they had the means 738 00:45:48,079 --> 00:45:51,199 to post bond and get Nick out of jail. They 739 00:45:51,199 --> 00:45:53,800 had family members who were able to serve as caregivers, 740 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,239 which prevented Arlow and his brother from being put in 741 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,800 foster care. Their friends stuck by them. Nick did not 742 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,400 lose his job, and they did not suffer the worst 743 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,639 possible outcome. Their baby lived. Arlow, now a healthy one 744 00:46:06,639 --> 00:46:08,920 and a half year old, has enjoyed a full recovery. 745 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,760 Ever since the surgery that relieved the excess fluid on 746 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,079 his brain, he has not needed any medical intervention yet 747 00:46:16,119 --> 00:46:19,159 the future is filled with uncertainty. Nick, who is expected 748 00:46:19,199 --> 00:46:22,920 to stand trial next year, faces up to twelve years 749 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,880 in prison if convicted. Felicia once wanted to fill their 750 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,840 lavender house with children, but she no longer thinks beyond 751 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,760 the present. We used to have plans and dreams, she 752 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,840 told me, and now our future is a huge question mark. 753 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,800 Speaker 2: I think this is just shocking. I feel so bad 754 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,960 for these people, and I feel like they've done everything 755 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,039 they can to prove that Nick is not an abuser. 756 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:54,519 They've offered very reasonable and thoughtful explanations for how Arlow 757 00:46:54,679 --> 00:46:57,719 could have had the medical problems that he did, and 758 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,559 yet he's still facing a criminal action in Cincinnati. This 759 00:47:02,639 --> 00:47:03,519 is crazy. 760 00:47:04,599 --> 00:47:07,480 Speaker 3: The whole idea behind you have to admit your husband's 761 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,920 an abuser and all of this will go away. That 762 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,119 sounds a whole lot like you have to admit that 763 00:47:14,159 --> 00:47:17,079 you're a witch and we won't hang you for witchcraft. 764 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,920 As somebody who teaches to Crucible every year, this sounds 765 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,960 like a horrible sort of no win situation. He's not 766 00:47:25,039 --> 00:47:27,679 an abuser, It's clear that he's not, but they keep 767 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,880 encouraging Felicia to say, you just have to say that 768 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,639 Ni's an abuser. I read this, and I was horrified 769 00:47:33,639 --> 00:47:37,320 beyond all belief. We do encourage you to take a 770 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,800 look at the article. It is titled A Cloud of 771 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,320 Suspicion by Pamela Koloff. The alternate title given it by 772 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,719 New York Times magazine was he dialed nine to one 773 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,239 one to save his baby, then his children were taken away. 774 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,440 We do encourage you to take a look at those 775 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,599 photos because there are some excellent photos and we hope 776 00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:57,719 that they will continue to follow up on this terrible, 777 00:47:57,960 --> 00:47:59,079 ongoing saga. 778 00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 2: For those of our listeners in the Washington, DC area, 779 00:48:03,159 --> 00:48:06,760 we hope we'll see some of you next Saturday, January 780 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:12,119 twenty fifth at the Montclair Public Library mini con focused 781 00:48:12,159 --> 00:48:14,800 on true crime and I think it'll be a really 782 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,480 interesting discussion. We hope to see some of you there. 783 00:48:18,119 --> 00:48:23,559 That's next Saturday, January twenty fifth in Montclair, Virginia. 784 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 3: That is going to do it for this episode of 785 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,559 Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 786 00:48:29,599 --> 00:48:30,360 see you next time. 787 00:48:40,079 --> 00:48:44,039 Speaker 1: Mindover Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another 788 00:48:44,119 --> 00:48:45,119 Dog Productions. 789 00:48:45,679 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 790 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,280 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 791 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 792 00:48:55,039 --> 00:48:59,039 Speaker 1: Mindover Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 793 00:49:00,079 --> 00:49:03,039 Speaker 2: Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 794 00:49:03,079 --> 00:49:05,679 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 795 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:07,480 Murders on Facebook. 796 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,360 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 797 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,000 Bill Thomas. Five six. 798 00:49:12,480 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. Yeah,