1
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:05,040
Speaker 1: S.

2
00:00:33,719 --> 00:00:34,520
Speaker 2: What up? Everybody?

3
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,960
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast

4
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,600
where you get to ask me Paul Abernathy anything you

5
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,880
want about the National Electrical Code and of course all

6
00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,119
things electrically related. Hell, I get people ask me about

7
00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:53,679
business management, contracting, hiring, firing, promotions, how to deal with

8
00:00:53,799 --> 00:00:57,960
disgruntle employees, how to deal with the interactions with electrical inspectors.

9
00:00:58,719 --> 00:01:01,880
Being that I've been an inspector, been a supervisor, ran

10
00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,439
my own businesses multiple times, currently the CEO of Electric

11
00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:08,480
Code Academy as well as the director of Technical Services

12
00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,840
for Uncore Wire Corporation also Prismium. I get so many

13
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,000
questions across the board of all different types of topics,

14
00:01:18,159 --> 00:01:21,719
and I want you to be able to ask any

15
00:01:21,799 --> 00:01:26,120
question you want over on our free portal, and that

16
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,640
is at Paul Abernathy dot com. Now that's a portal

17
00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,599
that's totally funded and paid for by Wicks. It doesn't

18
00:01:32,599 --> 00:01:36,519
cost you anything to submit a question. Feel free to

19
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,840
submit it, and I'm more than happy to answer any

20
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,120
question that I get submitted as long as I can answer,

21
00:01:43,159 --> 00:01:45,120
and if not, I got a good set of friends

22
00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,319
in the industry that I can find you the answer

23
00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:48,280
if I don't happen to.

24
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,159
Speaker 2: Know the answer, so we will get you an answer.

25
00:01:53,159 --> 00:01:53,680
How about that?

26
00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,480
Speaker 1: So thanks for joining me on this podcast. I also

27
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,400
remember that you can listen to our wherever you're listening

28
00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:05,599
now if you also get our free mobile app. It's free,

29
00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:07,799
it doesn't cost you anything. You don't go to the

30
00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,240
app stores to download it. You go to our website.

31
00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,879
So if you hate me, just go one time. Just

32
00:02:12,879 --> 00:02:17,439
go one time to the website. Fasttrackssystem dot com. T

33
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,759
R a x not t R A c K. It's

34
00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,560
tracks t R a x so fast tracks System dot com.

35
00:02:24,599 --> 00:02:26,919
And you'll see in the navigation it'll say mobile app.

36
00:02:27,759 --> 00:02:31,919
Basically it's a web based mobile app. Whereas you're just

37
00:02:32,039 --> 00:02:34,479
downloading a link. And so when you click on the

38
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,120
link or scan the QR code with your phone, if

39
00:02:37,159 --> 00:02:38,560
you're on a desktop and you want to put it

40
00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:41,479
on your phone, which is what I recommend you scan it,

41
00:02:41,479 --> 00:02:42,919
it'll ask you do you want to accept it?

42
00:02:43,159 --> 00:02:43,599
Speaker 2: Allow it?

43
00:02:43,719 --> 00:02:47,039
Speaker 1: Say yes, we will not download anything on your phone.

44
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,400
But when you do that in the mobile app, you're

45
00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,000
going to get access to so many features our blogs,

46
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,639
You're going to get access to our podcasts. Both the

47
00:02:55,719 --> 00:02:58,719
Let's Ask Paul and Master the NEC podcast. You can

48
00:02:58,759 --> 00:03:02,360
get that. You're also going to get access to our

49
00:03:02,479 --> 00:03:04,919
chat feature. You got to register first, so there's a

50
00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,080
button at the top or one of the boxes.

51
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:08,639
Speaker 2: As you click on it and you register.

52
00:03:09,759 --> 00:03:15,000
Speaker 1: And because the mobile app is totally separate from everything. Okay,

53
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,159
because again all of our products we try to appeal

54
00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,319
to the fact that you can actually order something without

55
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,560
being a student, right, so you can go to our

56
00:03:24,599 --> 00:03:27,919
fasttracks tube and watch our video platform.

57
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:29,319
Speaker 2: You can uh.

58
00:03:29,319 --> 00:03:31,120
Speaker 1: And you don't have to be a student, or you

59
00:03:31,159 --> 00:03:33,439
don't have to be a purchaser of a course of ours.

60
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,879
You can go just to our fasttracksystem dot com and

61
00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,360
purchase a course totally separate log in, totally separate system, or.

62
00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,439
Speaker 2: If you want the mobile app, it's totally separate.

63
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,400
Speaker 1: It doesn't cost you anything to get the app, so

64
00:03:46,599 --> 00:03:48,639
check it out. You get it though by going to

65
00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:53,960
our website fasttracksystem dot com and just go to the

66
00:03:54,039 --> 00:03:57,159
navigation and you'll see where it talks about the free

67
00:03:57,159 --> 00:03:59,479
mobile app or the mobile app. Check it out and

68
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,759
you can emit to anything your Bluetooth devices. But that's

69
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,199
the best place to listen. Of course, you can go

70
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,240
to all of your favorite platforms, maybe what you're listening

71
00:04:08,319 --> 00:04:12,639
on right now, maybe Spotify, Spreaker, Deezer, iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts,

72
00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,360
Amazon Music, or whatever you're listening to. Feel free to

73
00:04:18,439 --> 00:04:21,920
keep doing that. Spotify is what I listened to the most.

74
00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,240
But the neat thing about the app is that you

75
00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,879
can actually see each episode, so that you if you

76
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:29,680
go to Spotify and all you don't not sure if

77
00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:31,800
you'll get the latest episode, it'll give you something. You

78
00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,120
got to weed through it. But if you go right

79
00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:35,879
to our app, you can get it and it's free,

80
00:04:35,959 --> 00:04:38,920
doesn't cost you anything. Okay, all right, So enough of that.

81
00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,639
Try not to sell you anything during that period because

82
00:04:42,639 --> 00:04:44,399
again I get the people who say, oh.

83
00:04:44,319 --> 00:04:48,279
Speaker 2: You're just selling pole whatever. Okay, got to make a living, okay,

84
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,120
all right, So a question of theday, let's talk about it.

85
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,920
Speaker 1: So it sparked the concept as I had a gentleman

86
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,800
that asked me about running non metallic sheath cable in

87
00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,680
a soffit and was it a wet location, was it

88
00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,759
a damp location, is it a dry location? And that

89
00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,600
sparked me to thinking a little bit because typically I

90
00:05:07,639 --> 00:05:10,040
tell people, you know, go through our Paul Abernathy dot com.

91
00:05:10,079 --> 00:05:12,360
It didn't come through that one, but since I was

92
00:05:12,439 --> 00:05:15,959
answering it and it sparked a fault that I am

93
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,759
more than sure that of a vast amount of people

94
00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,759
struggle with that, right They they're like, Okay, what's damp,

95
00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,120
what's wet, what's dry? And sometimes it can be very

96
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,720
obvious what's dry. Right in your walls, finished walls, inside

97
00:05:31,759 --> 00:05:32,759
the envelope.

98
00:05:32,319 --> 00:05:33,759
Speaker 2: Of your building, it's a dry location.

99
00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,360
Speaker 1: Okay, except if you happen to run somewhere we're going

100
00:05:36,399 --> 00:05:38,600
to be spraying down or washing down or whatever, then

101
00:05:38,639 --> 00:05:40,879
you might classify as a wet or damp location. But

102
00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,000
for the most part, inside the walls, inside the building,

103
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,399
inside the building envelope, we think of it as a

104
00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:51,439
dry location. But what's interesting is people come up with

105
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,600
these things like, Okay, well I have a porch and

106
00:05:54,639 --> 00:05:59,279
it's open, it's screened in, okay, and you know I'm

107
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,519
going to have it in side of the walls, inside.

108
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:03,560
Speaker 2: Of the porch.

109
00:06:03,639 --> 00:06:07,759
Speaker 1: Well, if it's inside finished, it's finished off, then I

110
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:13,000
would consider in the walls a dry location. Right that

111
00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,839
type of scenario, if you're going to run it out

112
00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:20,439
underneath to say a canopy or out underneath the cover

113
00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,959
and it's exposed, well, then that may kick it into

114
00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,800
a different classification. I think what's really important with this

115
00:06:26,959 --> 00:06:30,519
is that so many people today, and it's the same

116
00:06:30,519 --> 00:06:32,920
people that hate the NEC, right, the National let Go Code.

117
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:34,920
Speaker 2: They go, I wish this, this, this, I hate this,

118
00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:35,319
this this.

119
00:06:35,759 --> 00:06:38,360
Speaker 1: But then when there's something that they don't feel is clear,

120
00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,360
then they bitch about the NEEC. They go, it needs

121
00:06:41,399 --> 00:06:44,720
to be it needs to be definitive. Yet when something

122
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,600
is definitive they gripe about it. You can't have it

123
00:06:47,639 --> 00:06:51,959
both ways. So for example, if they don't like something

124
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,360
with GFCI requirements, then the gripe about it rather than

125
00:06:55,399 --> 00:06:58,519
submit something and try to justify a change or do something.

126
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,040
It's just gripe about it, rather than just do what

127
00:07:01,079 --> 00:07:03,040
the code says and do it. I mean, I understand

128
00:07:03,079 --> 00:07:06,279
you have personal feelings about it. I get it, but

129
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,240
it is what it is, right, it's in the code,

130
00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,639
so you do what you do what the code says. Now,

131
00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,959
same people will then have a situation where they want

132
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,240
the code to be just so black and white that

133
00:07:20,319 --> 00:07:25,839
they are upset because it's ambiguous. And sometimes it is

134
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,600
for a reason and the reason. A good example of

135
00:07:29,639 --> 00:07:34,240
this reason is for a wet, dryer, damp location because

136
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,160
every location, depending on where you're at in the country,

137
00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,399
what the conditions of use are are different. A AHJ's

138
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,480
authority having jurisdiction, you're a local inspector who's working on

139
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,199
behalf of the building official as their deputy, who has

140
00:07:51,279 --> 00:07:54,519
been given the rights to act as the AHJ for

141
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:55,240
a project.

142
00:07:55,759 --> 00:07:57,199
Speaker 2: They have to make determinations.

143
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,240
Speaker 1: Now do they always make the right determinations that you know,

144
00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:04,639
not always, but they're you know, I want to believe

145
00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,480
deep down that they're doing the best that they can

146
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,199
based on the knowledge that they have in their experience

147
00:08:10,439 --> 00:08:11,240
in that area.

148
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:12,959
Speaker 2: I mean, I'd like to think it that way.

149
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:19,199
Speaker 1: I'm not again, I'm being an inspector, being supervisors and

150
00:08:19,839 --> 00:08:24,879
of many inspectors through the years and multiple jurisdictions, all

151
00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,639
those type of things. I want to think that inherently

152
00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,679
they want to do the right thing right and that's

153
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,519
the way I want to think. So they're not gonna

154
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,080
My hope is that they're not going to make you

155
00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,080
do things that are just to do them, Because I'm

156
00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,840
hoping that they don't make you do things just because

157
00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,639
you know they're they're being vindictive based on how they

158
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,240
were forced to do things. I always used to tell

159
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,799
my inspectors leave that hat at home. Just enforce the

160
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,480
code as a minimum. Don't impose your will on somebody

161
00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,840
else just because you may not like something. If it

162
00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,200
is compliant and that's the choice of the installer, then

163
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,559
you let them do their job. It's not your responsibility

164
00:09:08,639 --> 00:09:11,840
to say, well, I don't like how that's done. If

165
00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:15,480
it's compliant, and unless you can give a code reference

166
00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,200
that states otherwise, then I really tell my inspectors and

167
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,559
I'll leave your opinion out of it. Just inspect it

168
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,480
and move on. That's their choice. That's between them and

169
00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,360
their customer. You just make sure it meets the minimum

170
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,759
safety standard. That is your only job as an inspector

171
00:09:31,399 --> 00:09:34,840
meeting the minimums, not forcing people to go above the minimum.

172
00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:36,799
Speaker 2: Meet the minimum.

173
00:09:37,159 --> 00:09:39,639
Speaker 1: If you're going to go above the minimum, that's between

174
00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,679
you and your customer as a contractor not should not

175
00:09:42,759 --> 00:09:46,639
be the inspector. Now, with that said, bringing it back

176
00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:48,759
to this wet, damp, dry location.

177
00:09:48,519 --> 00:09:51,639
Speaker 2: Thing, good news for us.

178
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,759
Speaker 1: We at least have the guidance of the definitions within

179
00:09:56,799 --> 00:10:00,000
the National Electrical Code to help give us some guy

180
00:10:01,159 --> 00:10:03,720
in this. And of course there is informational notes which

181
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,240
are purely informational, that are typically found under damp location,

182
00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,960
for example, And there's some informational note that's found under

183
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,240
wet location. There isn't one under dry because I mean

184
00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,600
that one's pretty straightforward, but it does have some language

185
00:10:19,639 --> 00:10:22,559
with that that isn't in an informational note that is

186
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,039
in the body of the code that gives us great

187
00:10:26,159 --> 00:10:30,840
understanding of temporary wetness and dampness. Right, and everybody knows

188
00:10:30,879 --> 00:10:35,519
their condition differently, right, And I'll explain to you why

189
00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,679
I think that's so important that it's the way it's

190
00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,759
written is believe it or not. People want things to

191
00:10:40,799 --> 00:10:44,879
be so cut and dry, but you know, pun intended.

192
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,120
Speaker 2: But let's talk about a bathroom for example.

193
00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,799
Speaker 1: I could have a bathroom and then people say, well,

194
00:10:51,159 --> 00:10:53,360
they turn the hot water on and it gets foggy

195
00:10:53,399 --> 00:10:56,679
in there. There's moisture in the fog, so that you

196
00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,320
know that's in the room, you know, the steam and whatnot,

197
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,080
and so that makes it a wet location or damp location.

198
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,679
I'm like, really, is that what you want?

199
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,120
Speaker 2: I mean, that's it.

200
00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:11,399
Speaker 1: That's taking it to the extreme, because if that's a situation,

201
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,240
then every receptacle that you put in air has going

202
00:11:14,279 --> 00:11:17,200
to be a WP rating on it. That means that

203
00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,200
you're lumin airs that are not within your your area

204
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,279
where they're permitted to be. Let's say the three by

205
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,879
eight foot where if it's surface mounted and it's listed

206
00:11:24,919 --> 00:11:27,919
for wet location or damp depending on the condition, do

207
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,120
you want everything to have to be rated for a

208
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,000
wet or damp location inside of a bathroom? Maybe be

209
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,440
very careful what you ask for if you want things

210
00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,320
so black and white, because, believe it or not, the

211
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,480
ambinguity is that it ambiguousness.

212
00:11:46,639 --> 00:11:48,039
Speaker 2: Ambiguity, isn't it.

213
00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:52,399
Speaker 1: The the the grayness here you go. Some people say

214
00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:54,480
gray I always I hate to say gray areas because

215
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,120
I say it's just areas of negotiation. But those reading

216
00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:01,399
the code and the interpretation can be different depending on

217
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,159
where you're at in the country because of the conditions

218
00:12:04,159 --> 00:12:06,399
of use in a wherever you're at in the country.

219
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,879
Speaker 2: Okay, I like a cross base.

220
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,399
Speaker 1: I don't ever consider a cross space right off the

221
00:12:13,399 --> 00:12:16,879
bat a wet or damp location. I don't because if

222
00:12:16,919 --> 00:12:18,600
I'm in the cross space and I look up and

223
00:12:18,639 --> 00:12:22,879
I see thermal insulation battened maybe up there, just you

224
00:12:22,879 --> 00:12:25,840
know the fiberglass, or I look up and I see

225
00:12:25,919 --> 00:12:29,159
untreated studs, and I look around, I see all that,

226
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,519
and I'm going, well, it's obviously not a wet or

227
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,279
damp location, and the construction didn't signify that it was

228
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:37,320
damp or wet location.

229
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,399
Speaker 2: I'm not looking at treated lumber here.

230
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:41,919
Speaker 1: Then at the end of the day, and I'm not

231
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,440
looking at moisture, I'm not seeing puddles anywhere.

232
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:46,639
Speaker 2: Then I'm not gonna.

233
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,720
Speaker 1: Immediately just assume that this is going to be a

234
00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:52,200
damp location. I'm just why would I want to go

235
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,840
down that rabbit hole? It looks like a dry location

236
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,720
to me, And so that's probably how it would be. Now,

237
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,840
if you've been in a cross space and inspector goes

238
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,120
in there and it's been finished and there's puddles of

239
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,759
water in there, there's a lot of moisture, there's evidence

240
00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:12,480
of moisture on the insulation. It just looks like it

241
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,559
has some type of condition that causes the moisture that

242
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,759
is not temporary, right, it just seems like it's always

243
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,919
going to be there. Then basically the AHJ makes that call,

244
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,639
and he may say, well, you know, I think this

245
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,879
is a damp location. It's protected from weather, it's not

246
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,519
really subject to saturation with water or other liquids, but

247
00:13:36,639 --> 00:13:40,399
it is subject, in their opinion, to modern degrees of moisture.

248
00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:42,759
And that is the very definition of a damp location.

249
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,720
That is a call that you're going to have to

250
00:13:45,759 --> 00:13:49,120
work with your AHJ. You know, I understand electricians just

251
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,840
don't like that. But again, it's the same electricians that'll

252
00:13:52,879 --> 00:13:56,720
bitch about anything because it's not you know that they

253
00:13:56,759 --> 00:13:59,559
think it's too strict. But here when it's kind of

254
00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,200
loose and left up to the AHJ and for you

255
00:14:02,279 --> 00:14:05,639
to negotiate and talk about this with your inspector and

256
00:14:05,759 --> 00:14:09,320
kind of form a partnership here, it shouldn't be adversary.

257
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,440
It should be a partnership. Then people don't like it.

258
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,360
So I think that that's the problem. Okay, it should

259
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,480
not be that way. And again, there's too many electricians

260
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,360
that are overly arrogant, and there's too many home inspectors

261
00:14:23,399 --> 00:14:27,320
that that are also uh, you know, imposing their own

262
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:32,559
will uh and have a godlike complex that type of thing,

263
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,559
and I think they just don't gel well together. Sometimes

264
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,679
as I and as inspector. When I was an inspector,

265
00:14:40,679 --> 00:14:43,919
and let's say when I was a supervisor in Alexandria, Virginia,

266
00:14:44,559 --> 00:14:46,279
and I had to go out to job sites, if

267
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,919
there was a conflict or somebody something, you know, somebody

268
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,559
disagreed with one of my inspectors, uh, and I'd go

269
00:14:52,679 --> 00:14:55,519
out and listen to the argument, kind of like an arbiter,

270
00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,159
listening to two sides. And if my inspector had good

271
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,600
justification based on what they saw in the conditions of

272
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,080
use or the conditions that are there, then I would

273
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,919
agree with them. If I disagreed with that, I may

274
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,919
agree with the actual contractor. But it's good to have

275
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,080
somebody that can be that judge. In some jurisdictions, you

276
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,440
don't have that. You just have the inspector and that's it.

277
00:15:20,919 --> 00:15:22,960
And if you do disagree and you have a good case,

278
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,120
then you still can go over their head. And if

279
00:15:26,159 --> 00:15:28,039
you're worried about retaliation.

280
00:15:27,639 --> 00:15:30,559
Speaker 2: You shouldn't be because that's easier to prove.

281
00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:34,200
Speaker 1: And if that's the case, then they can get in

282
00:15:34,279 --> 00:15:38,000
more trouble at going to city managers or mayors, go

283
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,720
to a council meeting and point this stuff out. Even

284
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,559
if you go there and you just bring their name

285
00:15:42,639 --> 00:15:44,080
up and get it in the mix.

286
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,919
Speaker 2: They do not want that publicity, Trust me, they do not.

287
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,679
Speaker 1: They don't want their name brought up to their supervisors,

288
00:15:51,679 --> 00:15:54,440
to anybody. So I would not do it just out

289
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,279
of spite, because that's not going to work out with anybody.

290
00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,000
Speaker 2: That's the cry wolf syndrome.

291
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,159
Speaker 1: After awhile, people we're going to say, yeah, this is

292
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,519
just a whiny ass contractor who's going to wind about everything.

293
00:16:04,559 --> 00:16:07,519
But pick your battles and go with it, full guns

294
00:16:07,559 --> 00:16:12,759
blazing when you know you're right. But most jurisdictions have

295
00:16:12,799 --> 00:16:16,879
a supervisor or somebody that can be the mediator between

296
00:16:16,879 --> 00:16:18,840
the situation. And then of course you have some great

297
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,080
inspectors around the country that are willing to listen. I

298
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,360
know plenty of them that are very open minded, and

299
00:16:25,399 --> 00:16:28,039
we'll listen to it and say, you know what, that's plausible,

300
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,200
and you know what, that's another way to look at it. Okay,

301
00:16:30,639 --> 00:16:33,879
I'm fine with it, right as long as they're not

302
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,480
lessening the code. Unless you're trying to convince them to

303
00:16:36,519 --> 00:16:39,960
do something below the minimum safety standard, then that should

304
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:40,759
never take place.

305
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,360
Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm going to read you.

306
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,159
Speaker 1: Each one of these locations and try to give examples,

307
00:16:47,159 --> 00:16:51,080
even though it's very clear when it comes to examples,

308
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,679
wise under damp location and under wet location, but I

309
00:16:55,879 --> 00:16:58,720
kind of want to read it so that we get

310
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,279
a concept and then we'll talk about some of my

311
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,000
thoughts on this. Okay, So let's just go right with

312
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,000
the damp one first. The bridge between not just not wet,

313
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,599
it's not dry, it's considered damp. And so here's what

314
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,559
the definition in the National Electrical Code. And by the way,

315
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,160
I am on the twenty twenty three edition of the NEC. Okay,

316
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,440
so for those that ask what edition are you doing

317
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:24,440
twenty twenty three?

318
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:25,160
Speaker 2: For me, it's.

319
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:29,519
Speaker 1: Always the latest published edition until unless you ask me

320
00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:33,880
a question on Paul Abernathy dot com. And if you

321
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,359
ask me a question and you're on something that's not

322
00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:40,200
twenty twenty three, make sure you let me know what

323
00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:43,240
code cycle you on, because again there are changes, and

324
00:17:43,559 --> 00:17:45,480
I'm going to answer. If you don't tell me what

325
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,079
code cycle you on, I'm going to answer in the

326
00:17:47,079 --> 00:17:50,680
twenty twenty three I cannot read your mind, all right.

327
00:17:51,079 --> 00:17:56,680
Damp location defined as locations protected from weather and not

328
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:04,240
subject to saturation with water or other liquids, but subject

329
00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:09,279
to moderate degrees of moisture. Right, So what are some

330
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,640
examples of this? The NEC gives us any informational notice

331
00:18:12,759 --> 00:18:16,359
is not an all inclusive list, of course, but it

332
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:22,640
says examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies,

333
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,000
so it's just a canopy where the where the whatever

334
00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:28,079
underneath it is really just open.

335
00:18:28,839 --> 00:18:29,160
Speaker 2: Okay.

336
00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:36,759
Speaker 1: So that's the case. Marquees roofed roofed open porches, right,

337
00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:39,559
so it's just an open porch where underneath it it's

338
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,599
under the under this the uh, the roof is just

339
00:18:42,799 --> 00:18:47,279
open area, okay, and the like location. So any locations

340
00:18:47,319 --> 00:18:56,720
similar to that, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees

341
00:18:56,759 --> 00:19:06,119
of moisture, such as some basements, not all basements, some basements,

342
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:12,480
some barns, and some cold storage warehouses. And the importance

343
00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:14,759
of this is when it says some basements, because there

344
00:19:14,759 --> 00:19:17,480
are people out there that literally looked at this and

345
00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:20,680
knowing that this is an informational note, it's not enforceable,

346
00:19:21,559 --> 00:19:24,680
but took this as an all inclusive list, and they

347
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:29,160
will say, okay, all basements, unfinished basements, or wet locations Jesus,

348
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,000
I hope not, because most of the framing that's going

349
00:19:33,039 --> 00:19:36,799
in these unfinished basements is not treated wood. Now, the

350
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,799
top plate that sits on the concrete treated because it's

351
00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:43,599
in direct contact with concrete, which is going to retain moisture.

352
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 2: But the regular wood is not.

353
00:19:47,599 --> 00:19:52,880
Speaker 1: And if it's unfinished basement, for example, then it's going

354
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,279
to be insulated at some point, maybe electric is going

355
00:19:56,279 --> 00:19:58,640
to be put in in the walls, dry location, sheet

356
00:19:58,720 --> 00:19:59,920
rock put up and finished.

357
00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:04,680
Speaker 2: So it's not all basements. Now. You could have partial basements.

358
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,599
Speaker 1: You could have a partial in the ground basement is

359
00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:10,599
one area of it might be like a seller and

360
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,640
then you can see evidence of moisture accumulating on the walls.

361
00:20:16,279 --> 00:20:23,119
You might see see effervescence or something from or or

362
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,160
maybe salt crystallization, depending on where you're at and the

363
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,519
mineralization of moisture or whatever. Maybe you even see you know,

364
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,079
wet insulation or something like that. That's something that's going

365
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:39,720
to be judged by your locality. The code can't give

366
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:41,920
a total, all inclusive here.

367
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,759
Speaker 2: This is why it's written this way.

368
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 1: Somebody has to make that decision whether you like the

369
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:48,960
AHA or not.

370
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:50,960
Speaker 2: The one that ultimately has to make it.

371
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,119
Speaker 1: You're going to make it as the contractor, but you're

372
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,440
going to hope that the inspector sees it the same

373
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,720
way you do. And if they do not, and you

374
00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:02,160
have to get failed because they say, oh, you can't

375
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,440
have this product in that location, say non metallic sheathed cable,

376
00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:09,759
because it's a damp location and an M cable is

377
00:21:09,759 --> 00:21:13,079
ready for dry only. Well, then you can have the

378
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,079
discussion the negotiation as to why you believe this is

379
00:21:17,079 --> 00:21:22,279
a dry location. So that's why it's written this way,

380
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,880
and I know it literally drives a lot of.

381
00:21:24,839 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 2: People batshitty crazy because.

382
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 1: They want everything else they think is too strict right,

383
00:21:31,279 --> 00:21:32,920
and they want it to loosen up a little bit.

384
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,000
But then when they get to something like this, they

385
00:21:35,039 --> 00:21:37,920
want it to be real tight and all inclusive. You

386
00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:43,480
can't have it both ways. Okay, Now moving to a

387
00:21:43,759 --> 00:21:48,839
dry location. What is a dry location? This one's very

388
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,119
important because it may seem obvious, but we get these

389
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,759
calls as well as a manufacturer of non metallic sheath cable.

390
00:21:56,839 --> 00:21:59,519
I probably get a couple times a month this call

391
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,000
about a location where they're running an M cable non

392
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,160
metallic sheathed cable a dry location. It says a location

393
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:13,000
not normally subject to dampness or wetness, a location classified

394
00:22:13,039 --> 00:22:20,759
as dry maybe temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as

395
00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:24,839
in the case of a building under construction. Now, the

396
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:31,359
real problem with this wording is it starts out it

397
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,160
should have ended in not. Really, it could have been

398
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:39,119
in an informational note, just like the others when it

399
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,359
talks about buildings under construction, because it should have just

400
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,599
stopped at a location classified as dry maybe temporary subject

401
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:52,880
to dampness or wetness period. Okay, because the building under

402
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,599
construction is not the only application where you may have

403
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:02,519
a normally dry location. Normally it's not subject to dampness awareness,

404
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:09,160
but it could be due to some event a pipe

405
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,599
leaking or something that that is a temporary event.

406
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 2: It doesn't change the location.

407
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 1: It doesn't change, you know, no different than underneath the

408
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,720
sink in a kitchen or in a bathroom. It does

409
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:25,880
not change the location because a water pipe could rupture

410
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,880
or bust. Although you would not believe the questions that

411
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,839
I get on that. I mean, you can laugh all

412
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,279
you want, you can say, Paul, you never get that

413
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:34,559
You're full of crap.

414
00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 2: I do get it.

415
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 1: You have no idea the type of questions I get,

416
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,440
but I do get those kind of questions. It doesn't

417
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,839
make the location wet or even damp. It says it

418
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,720
right in the definition for dry locations that hey, if

419
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,160
it's a dry location, it is. If it's subject to

420
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,480
a temporary dampness or wetness due to some condition of

421
00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:03,720
use that happens not the normal. That doesn't change what

422
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:08,480
the location is. So it shouldn't change your mindset when

423
00:24:08,519 --> 00:24:11,079
you're running the type of wiring method in there, because

424
00:24:11,319 --> 00:24:14,359
for all intensive purposes, it's supposed to be a dry location. Now,

425
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,720
the building under construction one tends to be the one

426
00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:21,920
that we get contacts from because this is the putting

427
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,640
the cart head of the horse scenario, and put somebody's

428
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,759
doing construction like it's not roofed in yet, or it's

429
00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:30,799
roofed in, but the windows are open and it still

430
00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:34,079
just studs up and the builder is pushing the damn

431
00:24:34,079 --> 00:24:35,720
electrician get in here.

432
00:24:35,759 --> 00:24:36,759
Speaker 2: I need you to get in there. I need you

433
00:24:36,799 --> 00:24:38,319
to get into the electricians.

434
00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: Like, well, you know, wait a minute, let me get

435
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,880
this thing walled up a little bit, because it's not

436
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,599
gonna affect the plumbers, right, the plastic piping or their

437
00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:48,359
pecks or what ain't gonna affect them. But electrical You're like,

438
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,240
whoa wait a minute, cowboy, I'd like to get this

439
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,559
place kind of sealed in a little bit before I

440
00:24:54,599 --> 00:24:57,599
start running my non metallic sheet cable with the damn

441
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:03,359
paper in the action sheathing, under the sheathing, okay, wrapping

442
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,480
around these conductors, right, And I got a bear in

443
00:25:05,519 --> 00:25:07,519
there with a paper wrapped around it.

444
00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:08,759
Speaker 2: Hold on a.

445
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,759
Speaker 1: Little bit, you know, I got all this exposure in

446
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,279
boxes and things like that. So it usually is somebody's

447
00:25:16,319 --> 00:25:19,599
pushing somebody or the contractors trying to get an early

448
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,839
start into something in the buildings not totally closed in. Again,

449
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,480
I'm not going to get into that. That's that's your jurisdictions.

450
00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:29,960
That's everybody's can have their argument of the timing. But

451
00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:35,440
non metallic sheath cable is tested, for example, to moisture, okay.

452
00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:38,319
So there's a certain test that we run as a

453
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:44,039
manufacturer m cable that puts moisture over the sheathing, not

454
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,839
inside the cable, it's over the sheathing, okay. And we

455
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,319
have certain tests that have to be done in order

456
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,480
for UL seven nineteen for.

457
00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:56,039
Speaker 2: Non metallic sheath cable.

458
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,559
Speaker 1: Okay, so, but this can also play havoc on devices,

459
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,799
whether you have switches or receptacles and all those type

460
00:26:05,799 --> 00:26:09,920
of things that get subject to moisture or exposure. And

461
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,799
then that kicks in a guide called the NEMA Evaluating

462
00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:18,039
Water Damage Guide that you have to then take into consideration.

463
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,000
That could change the whole aspect because that guide tells

464
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,480
you exactly certain things that should be replaced that are

465
00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:28,799
not reconditionable, and lord knows, we don't want to get

466
00:26:28,799 --> 00:26:32,039
into that. So typically that doesn't happen on the devices

467
00:26:32,079 --> 00:26:34,920
that's a flood issue or something like that sprinkler goes

468
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,279
off we're talking about when it says, for example, buildings

469
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,559
under construction, this is where you may get some moisture

470
00:26:42,039 --> 00:26:44,640
that come in and get on top, gets on the

471
00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:47,920
NM cable. That's okay, it's not going to hurt it.

472
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,039
Usually gravity will take care of itself and drip it off.

473
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: That type of thing. Okay, However, it.

474
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: Is your responsibility if you're going to be wiring something

475
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,200
early and you got boxes with the stripped out conductors

476
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:02,519
and everything, if it.

477
00:27:02,559 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: Is possible for moisture.

478
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: To get in that box and get in that cable assembly.

479
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,119
Then that is a situation where the anima evaluating water

480
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,480
damage guy, it's gonna have to kick in. And most

481
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,079
of us that are manufacturers of wiring cable for an innium,

482
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,480
if you get water in the end of that cable,

483
00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:23,960
we're gonna recommend you replace it. That would be different

484
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,119
for something like a UF cable, which is designed for

485
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,160
wet location. Anyway there's no paper in it, then we

486
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,759
might have a little bit of relaxation there, but not

487
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,599
when it comes to NM. So all we're saying is

488
00:27:35,559 --> 00:27:39,880
be careful. But a dry location is a location that

489
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:46,599
can temporarily be subject to some dampness or wetness. Okay,

490
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,400
A good example of that with the question I got

491
00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:54,559
was about a soffit. If the soffit is you got

492
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,359
NM running through the soffit, maybe it's coming out for floodlights,

493
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,839
and it's got a bottom on it with the vents

494
00:27:59,839 --> 00:28:02,680
on it, so it's a closed area. Remember that wood

495
00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:05,279
up in there is not treated wood. It's regular wood.

496
00:28:05,319 --> 00:28:08,200
Typically you may even have I usually have blockers so

497
00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:11,519
you don't get any insulation down in there. But it

498
00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:15,920
is an open space, it's a cavity. Typically, I would

499
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,359
not expect, you know, the nature of the way water

500
00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:21,839
is that you would not have a location where I

501
00:28:21,839 --> 00:28:24,319
would consider that to be damp or wet. Although you

502
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,680
may say, well we get a lot of humidity and

503
00:28:26,759 --> 00:28:31,240
things like that, it still wouldn't raise my too much

504
00:28:31,279 --> 00:28:35,680
of my concern. But you know your area better than me, okay,

505
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,680
But that's why the code is written like it is.

506
00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:41,279
But if that is a temporary condition of dampness and

507
00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:45,880
wetness and the location is actually a dry location, then

508
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,640
somebody has to make that call, and it's going to

509
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,200
be the AHJ, and you're going to have to work

510
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,599
with the HJ. It is not something that the NEC

511
00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:57,960
needs to get involved with and be definitive on it

512
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,759
because every location, every condition of use is different. You

513
00:29:01,759 --> 00:29:03,920
don't have the same humidity issue in some parts of

514
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,880
the country as others. You don't have the same level

515
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,039
of rain. It's it's total something that the This is

516
00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:14,839
an example of AHJ's having to make the call. Okay,

517
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,920
But I always argue that they need to have a

518
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,319
firm foundation for their justification, not just say well it

519
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,519
could no. No, is this historically what happens. Is this

520
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,240
caused a problem? Have you ever seen this cause a

521
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,720
problem If that's why you're making the ruling that this

522
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,359
is a damp or wet location because you have a

523
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,039
known issues you've seen it, or is this just what

524
00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:43,759
you feel in your heart because I'm not seeing any

525
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:46,559
evidence of water damage on the wood studs. I'm not seeing,

526
00:29:46,599 --> 00:29:48,640
you know, any on the joices, the rafters, I'm not

527
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,319
seeing any of that stuff. And really we're only talking

528
00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:54,839
humidity that's no different than what you get in a

529
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,200
bathroom and that's not going to create a wet or

530
00:29:57,279 --> 00:30:01,160
damp location outside of your shower, bathtub space or that

531
00:30:01,319 --> 00:30:06,440
zone three foot eight foot zone. So again, sometimes people

532
00:30:06,519 --> 00:30:11,000
can reach over their boundaries, but just make them justify it.

533
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,279
It's okay to have that conversation. Help buy them a

534
00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:15,279
cup of coffee and say, dude, I'd love to learn

535
00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:17,920
more about your your positions on these things so that

536
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,599
I know moving forward how we're going to be communicate

537
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:26,480
with your inspectors. Not all of them are so godlike

538
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,759
is that they cause a problem, and there are those

539
00:30:28,759 --> 00:30:32,279
out there, don't get me wrong, but you know I

540
00:30:32,319 --> 00:30:34,720
was never that way. I know the code very well,

541
00:30:35,079 --> 00:30:37,480
but I always would listen to an argument and if

542
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,640
they could make a plausible argument. I tried to never

543
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,759
impose my own personal wills. I tried to use, you know,

544
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,960
some my knowledge of the location that I was in

545
00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:51,319
and tried to work with them.

546
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,759
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, the last one is wet location.

547
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: A bit of a change, a little bit for the

548
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,440
twenty twenty three as far as the structure in it,

549
00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:02,319
a little easier to understand the way. It's not just

550
00:31:02,359 --> 00:31:05,680
one rambling thing. It says wet location. It says a

551
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:06,839
location that is.

552
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,839
Speaker 2: One or more of the following.

553
00:31:09,799 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: Okay, the first one is unprotected and exposed to weather

554
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,440
common sense number two. Or the next thing is subject

555
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,279
to saturation with water or other liquids. Obviously, if it

556
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,640
can be saturated and it's subject to it, then again

557
00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:32,640
exposed outside obviously, next underground, whether it's something's in a

558
00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:38,119
raceway underground or ran direct buried underground, it is considered

559
00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:38,759
a wet location.

560
00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 2: Period.

561
00:31:40,079 --> 00:31:44,119
Speaker 1: I get so many people that send me comments and say, well,

562
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,519
liquid tite. That's a reason they call it liquid tighte

563
00:31:46,599 --> 00:31:50,680
that outside it is, it is not a wet location.

564
00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:54,119
And I get that people will say that to me

565
00:31:54,519 --> 00:31:58,720
all the freaking time, and I go, it is absolutely

566
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,559
a wet low. And then the next thing is it's

567
00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:06,720
almost like they don't read the code right or choose

568
00:32:06,799 --> 00:32:08,000
not to read the code.

569
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: Then I end up having to.

570
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,119
Speaker 1: Go through this explanation, say, you know what what you

571
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,240
need to do is you know you need to go

572
00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:19,519
read So it's above grade, liquid tight and it's in

573
00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:20,160
a raceway.

574
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,039
Speaker 2: Go to three hundred dot nine. What does three hundred

575
00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:23,759
dot nine say?

576
00:32:24,359 --> 00:32:28,839
Speaker 1: Says where raceways are installed in wet locations above grade,

577
00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:33,079
outside is a wet location, right, the interior of these

578
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,839
raceways shall be considered to be wet locations. It says

579
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,119
insulated conductors and cables installed in raceways and wet locations

580
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:47,079
above grade shall comply with three ten dot ten C.

581
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,880
And we've had this conversation as well with people where

582
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,240
I've tried to explain to them about stripping out the

583
00:32:54,279 --> 00:32:57,920
conductors of NM cable and again in three ten dot

584
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,839
ten C you don't see anything here, especially when they argue, well,

585
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,559
it's THHGGN, and I remind them that the seven to

586
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,720
nineteen standards says that the construction of the wire inside

587
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,359
of a non metallic sheath cable has to be similar

588
00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:15,720
to the construction, the insulation thicknesses and all that stuff.

589
00:33:15,759 --> 00:33:18,519
It doesn't have any markings, but they want to argue

590
00:33:18,559 --> 00:33:20,039
to they're blue in the faith that you could use

591
00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:22,240
those conductors even though they don't have the markings. And

592
00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:25,960
as you saw right here, it's a wet location above grade.

593
00:33:26,319 --> 00:33:28,400
If you strip out those conductors and stick them in

594
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,839
a liquid tite, it's still required by three to ten

595
00:33:32,119 --> 00:33:36,960
ten C for wet location to have conductors that meet

596
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:42,079
this list. And you don't see THHGN anywhere on here, right.

597
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,160
You just see products with a W in the in

598
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:50,079
the nomenclature right, So again you could they can argue

599
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:52,359
it inuntil they're blue in the face. And some jurisdictions

600
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,160
can have modifications and they're just asking for trouble. I'm

601
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,680
the kind of guy that, you know what, when a

602
00:33:57,799 --> 00:34:02,160
jurisdiction approves something that they're not supposed to, and just

603
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,480
because they obviously have people that I guess lobby for

604
00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:09,079
it in the area, builders or whoever, or people that

605
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,280
whine enough that the localities change their ruling and put

606
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,920
it in writing, that's all great, that's all good until

607
00:34:17,079 --> 00:34:20,840
you get in trouble or something happens, and the moment

608
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,360
that they put that allowance or that modification in writing,

609
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,000
they have just increased their liability. And you, as an electrician,

610
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,159
have to realize that I'm not going to listen to

611
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,239
what they say. I'm going to use a product that's

612
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,599
supposed to be in there for the NEC because the

613
00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:40,400
state or the inspectors will throw you under the bus.

614
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:41,559
Speaker 2: So I mean, everybody's there.

615
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,679
Speaker 1: To protect their interest, right, They're not there to protect you.

616
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:45,679
Speaker 2: You need to do what's right.

617
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: Even if some modification says it's okay, why would you

618
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,400
want to do that? Why would you want to strip

619
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,000
out the conductors because that's what's in your truck. Come on,

620
00:34:56,039 --> 00:34:59,039
you gotta work smarter. You really do have to work smarter,

621
00:34:59,159 --> 00:35:02,480
and you do not in this litigious world we live in.

622
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,440
You don't want to raise your exposure. Okay, but you

623
00:35:06,519 --> 00:35:09,039
do you boo, is what I always say. But also

624
00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:11,559
the next question they say, well, what about raceways underground?

625
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,440
Well then they would go to three hundred dot five

626
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:16,920
and they go in three hundred dot five B. And

627
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,760
again I'm in the twenty twenty three EC. It says

628
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:25,599
the interior of enclosures or raceways installed underground shall be

629
00:35:25,639 --> 00:35:30,400
considered to be wet locations. And again remind you that

630
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,559
the insulated conductors are cables installed in these enclosures or

631
00:35:33,679 --> 00:35:37,519
raceways underground have to have the markings, have to meet

632
00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:41,880
three ten dot ten c folks, okay, And again it's

633
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,960
going to be have to have a type of insulation

634
00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:50,760
that is rated for a wet location. And the THHN

635
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,119
does inside of an NM cable, whether you strip it

636
00:35:54,119 --> 00:35:57,639
out or not, it's not rated for that. So that

637
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,960
should totally squash that. Even if if a jurisdiction says

638
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,760
I'm okay with it, my recommendation is don't because you're

639
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,480
gonna get no help from the manufacturer. You're gonna get

640
00:36:07,519 --> 00:36:11,159
no help from anybody. A code expert not gonna help you.

641
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,599
And I can just tell you my experience. For example,

642
00:36:14,599 --> 00:36:18,159
in the state of Texas, the jurisdiction can say they're

643
00:36:18,199 --> 00:36:20,039
okay with something, but at the end of the day,

644
00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:23,440
if the state steps in, state ain't gonna give a damn.

645
00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:26,840
The jurisdiction doesn't care, they're out of it. It's the

646
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,480
poor electrician that's going to be left holding the bag

647
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,800
and the state's gonna say. I don't care what that

648
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,719
jurisdiction said. This is what we enforce and we don't

649
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,800
have any amendment to that. Just be careful, That's all

650
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,360
I can say, folks. So we know for a fact

651
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,800
that race ways outside above grade or below grade are

652
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,440
a wet location. Enclosures outside below grade or wet locations.

653
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,679
A NIMA three R panel outside inside of that panel

654
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,880
is not a wet location. That's why it's a name

655
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,840
of three are Okay, A lot of big confusion on

656
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:05,480
that as well.

657
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:07,639
Speaker 2: Okay, that is why.

658
00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: This is why that panel has to have that NEMAL

659
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,599
rating on it for its location exposure. Okay, all right, anyway,

660
00:37:16,679 --> 00:37:20,400
enough of that, Okay, So getting back to the you

661
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,639
know the definitions, and those are the definitions.

662
00:37:25,119 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: Again, you have to work with your HJ. Some of

663
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,639
this is clean cut.

664
00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: I personally any basement that's unfinished, but the ceiling choices are,

665
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,599
which is the floor joises for the room above If

666
00:37:38,599 --> 00:37:41,880
their standard would and they're using insulation standard insallation, I

667
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,119
wouldn't consider it to be a wet location. I would

668
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:49,159
expect that those walls would, if they're below grade, have

669
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,159
some type of treatment on them, I would consider that

670
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:52,880
dry location.

671
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 2: Okay, so not all basements.

672
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,519
Speaker 1: If I had a basement there was partially submerged underground

673
00:37:59,559 --> 00:38:01,920
and the other there wasn't. On the other side, there

674
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,719
was evidence of moisture down the walls, there's evidence of

675
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,800
something like that, then maybe I can make that judgment.

676
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,559
But typically I probably would not in new construction, and

677
00:38:10,599 --> 00:38:13,119
that's typically what we're talking about here in the nec

678
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:20,559
outside run underneath the canopies. Obviously it's not gonna be

679
00:38:20,599 --> 00:38:23,000
a subject to physical damage. It's up high, it's being

680
00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:26,000
run up. But if it's open, I might consider that

681
00:38:26,039 --> 00:38:28,880
a damp location rather than a dry location. You close

682
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,880
that off, you put a ceiling on it, and it's

683
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,199
closed up in there, I'm gonna.

684
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: Consider that a dry location. You run it in the walls,

685
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:38,519
you close those walls up.

686
00:38:38,559 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: On an outside porch, I'm going to consider that a

687
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,800
dry location. Even if it's no even if it's just

688
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,920
screened in porch, If the walls are framed up and

689
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,079
it has a finish on it and the wirings inside

690
00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:55,400
the wall, I'm gonna consider that a dry location. That's

691
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,239
just me now, that might be that might apply to

692
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,840
the actual wiring method. But then you could have an

693
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,519
inspector that looks at and says, I get that. That

694
00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:12,719
is not my problem. My problem is the receptacles are

695
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,760
now located in a damp or wet location, and I

696
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,000
want to have at least have the rating on those,

697
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,280
and so you could run into all.

698
00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 2: Those types of situations.

699
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: And the beauty of the NEC is that in this case,

700
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,440
when it comes to dry, wet and damp, the ambiguity

701
00:39:31,559 --> 00:39:35,199
of it allows that to be used anywhere in the country,

702
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,360
and the local jurisdiction are the ones that get to

703
00:39:40,039 --> 00:39:42,920
kind of work with it and give their interpretation and

704
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,519
work with the contractor to come to a happy decision.

705
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: I know you hate it.

706
00:39:48,519 --> 00:39:51,639
Speaker 1: You hate it when the code's not totally black and white,

707
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,760
but then when it is totally black and white, you

708
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,320
hate it then too. Okay, but it is what it

709
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,599
is and it ain't never going to change. All right,

710
00:39:59,079 --> 00:40:01,440
all right, folks, hopefully you got something out of that.

711
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,480
We'll catch you on another episode of Let's Ask Paul.

712
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,880
Hopefully that gave you a little bit of clarity. And again,

713
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,039
wherever you're at in the country, inspectors, contractors.

714
00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 2: Please work together. Electrical inspectors. Please.

715
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: You may be in a jurisdiction where you don't have

716
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,760
to give a code reference when you reject somebody, but

717
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,000
you know what, raise your game. Let them know you're

718
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,199
a professional. You do this for a living. It is

719
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:30,199
truly a profession to be an inspector. So always justify

720
00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:34,840
your fails with code references so that the damn electrician

721
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,039
knows what to fix and doesn't have to try to

722
00:40:38,079 --> 00:40:41,239
pick your brain. Okay, And it makes you look bad

723
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,800
as an inspector because if you're too broad, then they

724
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,719
don't know what to fix, and you look like you

725
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,920
really don't know what you're talking about in your reaching

726
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,760
and you really can't put yourself in a position of

727
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,599
strength during a negotiation. Okay, Anyway, until next time, folks,

728
00:40:56,599 --> 00:40:58,599
Stay safe, God bless, and hopefully you'll catch me on

729
00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:01,840
another episode of Let's Ask Paul, as well as Master

730
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,920
the NEC podcast, all of which are available from our

731
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,599
free mobile app over on over on fast track system

732
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:10,719
dot com.

733
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:36,079
Speaker 2: Stay safe, God bless,