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Speaker 1: What is up, Fellowsiko's I am Dan Favallei, your host

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of Destiny, kind of like the Indiana Pacers might be

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the team of Destiny. I am joined by the only

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fans content creator of Destiny, Mort Jensen, who is also

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famous for his work at the NBA podcast, Yahoo Sports

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as well as Forbes. We are here to talk about

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You've listened to the game recaps. You've done that by

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now We're here to talk big picture stuff. We have

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one overarching question we're going to talk with about this series,

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thunder Pacers, that Mort and I are going to get

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into each of our biggest single takeaways from game one

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and then either our biggest question or suggested adjustments moving

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forward into game two and beyond. But before we belly

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fop in, Mort, how the heck are you?

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Speaker 2: You know what?

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Speaker 3: I was doing pretty well? And then I realized moments

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ago that the last time you and I recorded, we

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recorded two episodes, not one. So you sent me over

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two files. And for some reason, because I am very

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sleep deprived and because it's very late in the season,

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I was like, did I record once or twice with Dan?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: I'm sure it was just one, and so I only

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uploaded one of the two and the one I didn't

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upload was the freaking NBA Finals preview. That's the one

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I forgot about to upload. So Dan, I'm doing you well,

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but I'm.

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Speaker 1: Also eddiehow Yeah you might or you're trying to get

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a job at ESPN. You you went right to the

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off season rumor stuff and just skipped skipped right over

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the basketball.

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Speaker 2: It's all about Tom tibbenhow apparently. God So no doing well.

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Speaker 3: I'm just I'm tired, sir, And like I will say this,

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I love what we've seen from game one. I want

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this to go as far as we can. But that

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light at the end of the tunnel that says offseason,

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it's starting to look big, and man, here I'm coming.

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Speaker 1: I would I love the finals because of the breaks

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we get in between games. And I know at the

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end of this, like my life during the draft and

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free agency slash trade season is just like it's a

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dead What we do is entirely a dead sprint.

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Speaker 4: Like I just want to make that clear.

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Speaker 1: It takes a lot of time, very little sleep, and

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we're not doing anything noble, so don't feel bad for us.

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We're covering a fucking game. But people care about this

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game a ton. You have to work hard, but that

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around the trade deadline and then immediately after the NBA

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Finals are like just the two most and maybe like

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when the season first kicks off are just like the

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most phrenetic times in my life. And so I kind

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of bask in the finals while also going through the

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existential dread of shifting into full on offseason mode. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And the thing is our job. They don't really

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end by the end of the finals, because then we

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have to do draft stuff, then we have to do

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free agency. And I've honestly, I've stayed out of summer

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league coverage, and that's been intentional for the most part,

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because I just can't like there's a limit, there's a

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limits to how many months out of the year I

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can just sort of get myself up to that level.

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Speaker 2: So summer league you're on your own.

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Speaker 1: I try to take it easy for a couple of

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weeks in August, but then after that it's like right

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back into like we're trying to do our team by

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team look at it here, and then like as soon

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as September rolls around, like even if you were just

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to really go by the NBA calendar, it's August and

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like a little bit of July is like one.

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Speaker 4: September rolls around.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, like, we're gonna start talking about training

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camp soon, and I'm going into all the previews and

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then oh, is there going to be a trade like

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three seconds before training camp opens that no one saw coming.

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Speaker 3: So I'll actually tell you something. I'll tell you something

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that because I felt the same way. But I've broken

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the pattern this year. We've actually booked a trip to

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Malta in September and that was that was actually part

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because I want to break that pattern. I want to

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use September as a month off as well. I really do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're so yeah, get that Yannis to the NIXT

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trade done before September, right for for say what we're

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saying here, let's dive in here. So I want to

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start with just this question that I think it's been.

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It's we've referenced it a couple times throughout our playoff coverage,

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you and I, Grant and I as well, and people

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started to talk about but I really kind of wanted

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to dig in to where after Game one of the Finals,

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we saw the thunder Go eleven players deep and the

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Pacers go ten players deep. And it wasn't I think

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Kendrick Williams played like or wasn't an aging like They

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played these small spurts, but there were on both sides

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at least seven players who logged fifteen or more minutes.

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Speaker 4: And it used to be the thought process was and

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still is.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying used to that you need to shorten your

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rotations during the playoffs to limit the amount of weaknesses.

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And then it's just what you want to rely on

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your best players. I am wondering, So I'm gonna frame

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the question like this or what we're seeing is what

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we're seeing from Indiana in Oklahoma City the start of

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kind of that next trend. Remember when the Warriors had

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Draymond Green at the five, it was a small ball

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or like going with with five out? Or is this

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just a function of these two teams play fast. Their

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style is so demanding and so you don't necessarily want

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anyone playing a crap ton of minutes, So you had

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to build your team this way. And the final thing

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before I throw it to you, Shake Gibs Alexander played

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I think it was like thirty nine minutes and thirty

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four seconds in Game one. That's like a lot of

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minutes on its face. But for us to exit game

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one that was determined by one point and say that

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no one logged forty minutes in that game, I'm not

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even sure if Tom Thibodeau is still alive.

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Speaker 4: Here's that little fact to it.

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Speaker 3: So here's the thing I don't I don't think it's

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just you know, for teams that run a lot. I

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think it's I think the NBA has finally caught up

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to the fact that defense is so more labor intensive

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now than it used to be. And look, this is

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it's also why the biggest pet peeve for my Oh what.

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Speaker 1: It's just funny that you're saying that when the discourse

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is is that no one plays defense.

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Speaker 2: That's see, that's the thing.

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Speaker 3: That's what I wanted to attack your because I hate

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when people say that it's bullshit. Like people look back

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and say, oh, they really played defense in the eighties.

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Now they play defense from twenty feet in. Now you

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start your defense from forty to forty five feet out.

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The I mean, the labor intensity of defense has just

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gone up like sky high, and it seems like NBA

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teams are finally embracing you know, let's dial it down

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in terms of giving our guys thirty five forty six

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for thirty seven minutes per game. You know, Kenny Atkinson

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is a guy who I think is a brilliant example

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of embracing that culture as well in Cleveland, and having

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debt resolves that issue a great deal. Now, I will

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say to answer the question, is depth the next NBA trend?

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Good debt is the next NBA trend? Because I mean,

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you can are we really sure the Charlotte Hornets, like,

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is there their debt good enough to like make anything noteworthy?

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Speaker 2: Probably not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've grown to call it functional depth to where

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it's something that will translate into the playoffs. It's kind

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of the lens that I'm looking at.

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Speaker 3: This question three exactly. And yeah, to answer that question, yeah,

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it's absolutely a new trend. It's kind of weird when

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we think back on it. Why it's never really been

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a trend if you catch my drift, because it always

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kind of made sense to have more guys come off

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the bench and make plays, Like it's common logic if

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you kind of squeeze everything together and you play five

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or six guys while not five, but like six or

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seven guys at the most, they are going to get

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absolutely knackered at the end and you need someone to

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come in and absorb minutes. And we've often thought about,

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you know, finals and even championship winning team where we've

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looked at certain guys and gone, why didn't that guy play?

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And everyone's kind of said, oh, well, they shortened their rotation,

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and we kind of just embraced that and like bought

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that on the surface of it and said, okay, cool,

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as if that was just a valid argument. So I

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love the we're seeing this. It just it makes sense

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again to me that we kind of look at this

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and go, oh, more.

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Speaker 2: Players are a good thing. Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I have three quick points I want to make on it. Yes,

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that I think just dovetail nice with what you said,

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because I totally agree. One of the points is I

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think that the way something like an inflection point with

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the Jason Tatum injury and just other injuries we've seen

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that you're never going to necessarily know the root cause

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of these things. But Jason Tatum has been one of

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the most durable and available players in the league since

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he entered it, and you see something like that you

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see just what feels like these influx of soft tissue injuries,

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and I think it's going to become more of a

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priority of even if you want to look at it

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through the regular season lens. It's not just having bodies

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on the roster you could throw out there, but that

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can be effective innings zeters, some of which will translate

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into the postseason. The second point that I think is

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a big deal. I'm also wondering if the way that

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the collective bargaining agreement in the era of aprons is

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now structured where you know that you're going to have

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that the best way to build a team is, well,

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we can have like two really top heavy salary guys,

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but it now increases the necessity for whether you have

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a bunch of top end salary guys or not, of

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we need to try and find these flyers or guys

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that could contribute. And maybe we're gonna give out more

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role player contracts. And I think that could be maybe

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an unintended consequence that's actually not so bad relative to

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what we've seen where I think a lot of this stuff,

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the unintended consequences have been not so great. And I

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think the other thing here why I think it's going

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to become a trend.

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Speaker 2: And this is.

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Speaker 1: Something that I think is really cool is that once

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you get to the playoffs, if you just have more

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buttons to push, more styles that you're able to adapt

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to and play within. One, it makes for a more

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entertaining product to me, and two, it just increases your

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chances of winning. And I think what we're seeing with

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the Pacers and the Thunder, to bring it back to them,

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are two teams that have been able to adapt at

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every single turn. And we thought from right out of

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the game. And we'll eventually talk about whether some of

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these were the right calls, but it's, oh, like this

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might be a Benanic Maathron series now and Mark dagnolt

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is gonna change. He changed up his starting lineup for

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game one, and that's you try stuff, maybe it doesn't work,

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but the other team is able to counter and your

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countering back. And I think depths an important part of

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that because if you get too pigeonholed into one way

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of playing, and we saw that with just because they

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were the most recent one of the most recent teams eliminated,

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like Minnesota was pretty like they had really like meaty

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depth like top heavy, like going seven or eight reliable

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guys deep. The Knicks didn't go that deep, and like

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everyone was calling for these changes, but there was really

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a limited number of changes they could make. If you

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think that more of Delawn Wright or Landry shamit was

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gonna be the difference between them winning the title and

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not winning the title, I would respectfully disagree, and so

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I'm very interested to see one. I guess maybe we

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could see front offices and ownership uses as an excuse

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not to pay really good players as much or stars

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as much, where it's like, no, we got to spread

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out the wealth across the rest of the roster to

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make it more manageable, especially when it comes to trades

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for them. But I think overall, what we're kind of

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seeing is and I feel like we've seen elements with

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other teams. You mentioned Kenny Atkinson, what Cleveland did this year. Yeah,

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they ended up injured anyway, so you can't sit here

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and say, oh, that's the best way to protect your players.

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But even Houston and like they were pretty I think

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what was it Fred van Fleet played forty minutes a

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game in that first round series, Like they had eight

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guys that were around twenty minutes per game, and when

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you watched them and you could argue this is also

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a bug, not just a feature. There wasn't ever one

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player you thought they couldn't live without. And I don't

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think that's the future. I think that's more of a bug.

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That's why fred van Fleet has to play so much,

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because their offense was so dependent on him. But I

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think we started to see the breadcrumbs laid elsewhere of that.

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These teams are you know, okay, see they didn't stumble

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into this. They're like a very special case study. But

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like the Pacers, meticulously built and preserved this team. And

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I think that, you know, the NBA is still a

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copycat league for all the changes we've seen. You know,

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maybe that doesn't last as long because everything feels like

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it's changing so fast. But I really think we're gonna

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see kind of a throwback. We're not a throwback in emphasis,

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just on depth in general, and finally would just be

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I think we might even see it when we're talking

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about these trades in the offseason. You know, if the

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Knicks interested in Kevin Durant, unless you're gonna be able

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to get him for Karl Anthony Towns plus a minimum contract.

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You gotta think we were shallow this year. We're gonna

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give up like like ogn Andobi and Mitchell Robbinson, and

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we're just gonna make ourselves even shallower to get a

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thirty seven year old. I think that might also be

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why you see teams like the Nuggets aren't gonna be

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as aggressive and turning multiple contracts into one even if

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those contracts aren't unplayable.

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Speaker 4: Good bad.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I do think depth overall is

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becoming more in vogue, and I think that we're gonna

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see more teams lean into it. And it's to your point,

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it's not just names on the roster that you've heard of,

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its depth, playable bodies that teams want to translate into

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the postseason.

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Speaker 3: I agree with everything you just said, and I want

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to add to it by saying to fans listening in, yes,

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like we are probably not gonna see a lot of

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these consolidation traits when unless it's a star. When it's

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a star, I think we can throw all of that

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out of the window because then you trade multiple players

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to get like a major difference maker in there, and

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you figure something out later. But you're absolutely right. You're

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no longer going, oh, let's get rid of two top

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ten players on our team to get a top seven

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guy in which we've seen before. Like no, I definitely

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think that is something that's even more of a discussion

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now before you pull the trigger. And it's certainly a

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more interesting way to build build out a roster to

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me as well, does this mean the Bulls are actually

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on were they?

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Speaker 2: Were?

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Speaker 1: They?

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Speaker 2: Right? We just want eight, eight to ten good players.

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Speaker 4: But you still need as I think.

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Speaker 2: The pacer is kidding Bulls, right, Dan, you need.

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Speaker 1: Great players, and the Bulls have two great players in

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Nikolovvich and Modis Buzzellis like they've decided. Yeah, so the

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Bulls are like the Bulls are in that horn like

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I feel like they aspire to be the good version

301
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of the Hornets from like ten or so years ago

302
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to whereas like the Kemba Walker Al Jefferson team that

303
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was pretty deep, but like you knew it wasn't really

304
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gonna go anywhere, And I think that's what.

305
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Speaker 4: The Bulls aspired to be. Yeah, poor Bulls fans like

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mort who is genuine.

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Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no, I'm gone.

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Speaker 3: I just I thought that was funny though, because I

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actually saw some people.

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Speaker 2: Like make that connection.

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Speaker 3: I was just like, you kind of forgetting the most

312
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important thing, Like you still need the MVP caliber players.

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You just still need the All NBA ors and uh,

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Josh Kinner thined it.

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Speaker 4: Portland's a perfect example.

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Speaker 1: We caught a lot of shit last summer because we

317
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said they were secretly stacked, and we noted not with

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like great players that are gonna get them to the playoffs,

319
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but this team is deep and like they can find

320
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an identity, do some damage. No, and behold, they did

321
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,120
exactly that, like their mid season turnaround, having a top

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five defense for basically half the year.

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Speaker 4: But you still need I would argue, you need like not.

324
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Speaker 1: That I don't want to call the Pacers the bare minimum,

325
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but like you need even the thunder. I guess you

326
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could say, like, because j dub and Chet Holmgren seemed

327
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to Wax and Wayne, you need one transcending guy that

328
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could be second team All NBA at minimum in any

329
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given year.

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Speaker 4: But preferably you need two of those guys.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now I've randomized the order in which who's gonna go

333
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first with their takeaway, So let's see who's coming up first,

334
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,679
I believe this is you more. Yeah, what are you

335
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thinking about the most coming out of game one?

336
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Speaker 3: I mean, look, Indiana is known for taking care of

337
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the basketball.

338
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Speaker 2: We know this.

339
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Speaker 3: They even lowered their turnover rate in the playoffs. They

340
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,360
still yeah, right, let's let's let's kind of update that

341
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:54,840
after game one. But it was such an interesting point

342
00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:59,480
that you actually raised in the episode we recorded that

343
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you won't find in my feet, We'll find worse.

344
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Speaker 2: Damn that was so dumb.

345
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Speaker 3: Well, because you did raise the point of, look, this

346
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,039
is a a team that protects the ball a great

347
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,840
deal going up against the team that's best just forcing turnovers,

348
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,840
how is that going to look like? And what's interesting

349
00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:26,679
to me in game one was just how laxa daisical

350
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they were with the ball, which is just very much

351
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:34,360
not Indiana. And some of it I think was just nerves,

352
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,679
like this is these are the finals after all, and

353
00:16:36,799 --> 00:16:39,200
I like OPI top and I think had was it

354
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,080
three turnovers in the first half or like within.

355
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Speaker 1: Two of which were like passes to the stands basically.

356
00:16:44,799 --> 00:16:47,600
Speaker 3: Right, and they were like, was it back to back possessions?

357
00:16:47,639 --> 00:16:48,960
Maybe not, but like very close to it.

358
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Speaker 1: May They were like three minutes apart and he just

359
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,080
like threw it. It ended up like in the back court.

360
00:16:53,159 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 3: Yeah right, And like, look, that's just not normal of

361
00:16:57,039 --> 00:16:59,840
them to make those type of mental mistakes. So, like

362
00:16:59,879 --> 00:17:03,440
my takeaway is they won this game and they threw

363
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,039
the ball away twenty four times, which is very unlike them.

364
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:12,039
So what does that mean going forward? Like, I know

365
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,000
that's kind of leaning into your second question there, but

366
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,000
like that to me is a major thing. Like the

367
00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:21,359
Pacers are can they still keep on winning if they're

368
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,680
going to turn the ball over to this extent or

369
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,880
are they just gonna low the pants off? Okay, see

370
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,079
if they start just not turning it over they as

371
00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,519
they used to not doing. I mean, if anything, just

372
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just this makes the series even more intriguing to me.

373
00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:37,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure.

374
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Speaker 1: And I think you're right about the nerves thing. There's

375
00:17:40,599 --> 00:17:42,160
not really a way to quantify it. But I went

376
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back and watched every single turnover that the Pacers had,

377
00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:48,359
and there was just like, yeah, there's some things where

378
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,480
it's okay, Oklahoma City's hands are in there. I don't

379
00:17:50,519 --> 00:17:53,000
know how much I want to see Aaronie Smith ribble

380
00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:55,839
in this series as an example, but just like Miles

381
00:17:55,839 --> 00:17:59,960
Turner having just a couple like just tacky offensive fouls.

382
00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:03,039
He also though, like his some of his early turnovers,

383
00:18:03,039 --> 00:18:04,680
and I think most of his came in the first half.

384
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,359
Those felt like, okay, those are certainly controllable. So I

385
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,480
think even Obi Toppins, the ones you met, like the

386
00:18:10,519 --> 00:18:12,960
two specifically where he's just like the balls like ends

387
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,079
up in the back court. I would like to probably

388
00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:18,279
see against this defense, the thunder defense. You probably can't

389
00:18:18,319 --> 00:18:20,720
throw as many bounce passes, I feel like, especially to

390
00:18:20,759 --> 00:18:23,839
your bigs, but that all kind of feels controllable. Okaysee

391
00:18:23,839 --> 00:18:26,119
is going to force turnovers. And if you sat here

392
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,680
and told me though that the Pacers end up having

393
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,279
the highest turnover rate of like any team in NBA

394
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,920
Finals history, which I think is twenty one point eight

395
00:18:34,039 --> 00:18:36,519
when I looked it up on Statthead during Game one,

396
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,720
I wouldn't be shocked. But like, this is a team

397
00:18:39,759 --> 00:18:42,079
where you go back and you watch those turnovers. Okase

398
00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:45,279
caused a bunch of them with their pressure, but like

399
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,119
there was at least and look to the Pacers credit,

400
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:49,799
they cleaned it up in the second half. They had

401
00:18:49,799 --> 00:18:52,640
five turnovers. So when you could say, well, the thunder

402
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,440
defense kind of faded at that point. Sure, but like

403
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,640
I think a lot of what happened with the Pacers

404
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,599
in the first half, those I feel like more controllables

405
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,200
than oh okay see, his defense is just inevitably going

406
00:19:05,279 --> 00:19:07,960
to do this. That's not to say, though, you know,

407
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,000
you got that game then when it was oh okay

408
00:19:11,039 --> 00:19:13,559
See's defense, let's say they were responsible, Like you really

409
00:19:13,599 --> 00:19:16,720
couldn't avoid half those turnovers. There's gonna be a game

410
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,680
where you might have like eighteen to twenty turnovers that

411
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,559
are also unavoidable because okayc locks in for a full

412
00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:25,519
forty eight minutes. So it's good that you won that game,

413
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,720
but I think that it's I don't think you can

414
00:19:28,799 --> 00:19:31,160
count on doing that again, would be my point.

415
00:19:31,039 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 2: Right right, So no go ahead, No, no go ahead.

416
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,319
Speaker 3: I was just going to echo whatever what you said

417
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:44,240
just said here. Basically, it's it's the unpredictability going into

418
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,279
game two that I find in exciting, because we also

419
00:19:48,839 --> 00:19:53,519
saw a poor shooting performance from Okase, So like things

420
00:19:53,519 --> 00:19:55,839
are going to balance out, and what's going to be

421
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,079
interesting in seeing is like how do the scales match

422
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,000
up when things start to balance in?

423
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think Look, I think you could argue

424
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,920
that favors the Pacers a little bit, like even the

425
00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:10,160
was OKC in transition outscored them eleven to ten in

426
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,759
Game one, and that's with the Pacers committing twenty four turnovers.

427
00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 4: That's insane.

428
00:20:13,559 --> 00:20:16,720
Speaker 1: So coming out of this more of Game one, I

429
00:20:16,839 --> 00:20:21,039
have to know, is Miles Turner just like better than

430
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:22,839
chet Holmgren or what's the story here?

431
00:20:23,599 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 4: Man?

432
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:29,160
Speaker 1: So doesn't monstern. Miles Turner did not have the cleanest

433
00:20:29,599 --> 00:20:32,839
offensive performance. We already mentioned the turnovers. He ended up

434
00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:34,640
shooting five to ten from the floor to a five

435
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:40,440
from three. But man, more that dude feasted on defense.

436
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,440
The Oklahoma City was a minus eight during his minutes.

437
00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:48,319
And listen to this, they shot thirty three point three

438
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,160
percent on twos with Miles Turner on the court more

439
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:57,440
on twos, yep, and he chet Holmgren. I'm to being

440
00:20:57,519 --> 00:20:59,519
mostly tongue in cheek here. I think chet Holmgren's a

441
00:20:59,599 --> 00:21:03,440
fantastic player. He's gotta go up to the basket or

442
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,319
take the ball with more force going like, I don't

443
00:21:05,319 --> 00:21:07,279
know who did he just I know he didn't play

444
00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:09,480
against the Pacers this year during the regular season, but

445
00:21:09,799 --> 00:21:11,839
this is not the first time he's heard of Myles Turner.

446
00:21:12,319 --> 00:21:14,519
Speaker 4: I gotta give Miles Turner all the credit in the

447
00:21:14,519 --> 00:21:15,799
world on.

448
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,759
Speaker 1: The like the defensive job he did for most of

449
00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:22,680
Game one, that is like equal parts deterrent and then

450
00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:26,920
like just possession swallower And he was great on the

451
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,000
defensive end of the floor. And I'm just like, I

452
00:21:31,599 --> 00:21:34,279
don't expect the thunder to struggle that much from inside

453
00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:36,079
the arc, but he was when you were watching their

454
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,400
drives or where they were pulling up from on their shots,

455
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,240
like he was actively changing the way that they were thinking.

456
00:21:42,519 --> 00:21:44,480
Speaker 4: And that's huge for the Pacers.

457
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,839
Speaker 3: Even offensively, you couldn't really move off of him or

458
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,240
move him off the block. You really couldn't move him

459
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,599
at all, because you know, we remember the days when

460
00:21:53,599 --> 00:21:55,599
he came into the league and he was a skinny,

461
00:21:55,839 --> 00:21:59,119
you know, twenty year old. Now he's you know, he's

462
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,920
approaching third he's really added muscle. And I know people

463
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,400
will laugh at this, but I think four or five

464
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,519
years ago, oh wow, that might it might not be

465
00:22:09,599 --> 00:22:12,240
that long. Three or four years ago, he started doing

466
00:22:12,319 --> 00:22:14,960
yoga and started like his flexibility and his core work

467
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,000
got so much better. He's very difficult to move offensively too,

468
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,720
so like when he goes into the dunker spot for example,

469
00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:25,279
good luck trying to get him out or move him.

470
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,240
That physicality is going to be a huge element for them,

471
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,799
especially against homegrown who I like to a great deal.

472
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:40,039
But like, he's still so skinny. Again, He's always going

473
00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:42,480
to be a finesse guy. He really is, and that's

474
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,240
there's no issue with that whatsoever. Kevin Durant is a

475
00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:50,920
finesse player. Wait, so when Panama is a finesse player,

476
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,880
So like, there isn't anything inherently wrong with that, But

477
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,240
it does mean that if you have an advantage and

478
00:22:57,279 --> 00:23:01,240
you can abuse that matchup as Lee Miles Turner seems

479
00:23:01,279 --> 00:23:06,160
to be capable of doing, you totally should the.

480
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,839
Speaker 1: Other number one to throw out there is the Thunder

481
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,599
as a team generated point six four points per possession

482
00:23:13,079 --> 00:23:16,079
when Miles Turner registered as a defender on chet Holmgren.

483
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,319
That is not good point six four points per possession

484
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,759
for anyone wondering. I did went pack and I was

485
00:23:21,799 --> 00:23:23,960
watching too to see like how many of chet Holmgren's

486
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,119
own shots that Turner actually changed. I think that matchup

487
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,359
data has him shooting one of seven against Turner.

488
00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 4: It's actually like pretty accurate.

489
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: There's like one or two shots whereas eh, but like

490
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,039
around the basket, he just didn't I don't.

491
00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:36,319
Speaker 4: I know.

492
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,799
Speaker 1: You mentioned that Chet will probably always be a finesse player,

493
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,079
and I think that's probably to some extent true.

494
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 4: But like you can go up.

495
00:23:43,279 --> 00:23:46,279
Speaker 1: With more, like be smarter about going up too, Like

496
00:23:46,319 --> 00:23:47,839
some of the angles he was using felt weird, but

497
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,799
you can go up stronger and the.

498
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,759
Speaker 2: Finness players can dunk Dan. I'm not saying Kevin.

499
00:23:52,599 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: Durant, Yeah, like Prian Kevin Durant. For sure, he doesn't

500
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,880
get to the room anymore, but like that's something he

501
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:57,160
had some.

502
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 2: Pot still dunk. Yes, that's not saying he's dunk.

503
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 1: I'm saying he had more pop during his prod.

504
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 3: No.

505
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 1: If that's controversial, I don't. I don't know what's not controversial.

506
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,400
So that's I'm that's a matchup I'm gonna be watching

507
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,680
moving forward. And it like kind of bleeds into what

508
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,480
I wanted to talk about when we're looking at like

509
00:24:13,799 --> 00:24:15,599
what are our questions, what are our adjustments? But I

510
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,359
don't know who gets to go first, because like I said,

511
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,480
I randomized it looks like it's gonna be me.

512
00:24:20,079 --> 00:24:23,599
Speaker 4: So here are my questions more, I actually have two.

513
00:24:24,279 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: This leads into the turn like it kind of steps

514
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,160
on the toes. What we're talking about with turn versus

515
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,680
Home Grin. Does okay, see need to go back. We'll

516
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,519
start here to duel big just because the other thing

517
00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:36,079
that you have to look at, Indiana in the fourth

518
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,039
quarter grabbed fifty percent of its misses and we didn't

519
00:24:40,039 --> 00:24:43,400
see Hartenstein or Homegrin for a single second together, And

520
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,440
I'm just sort of wondering, now, Okay, see didn't get

521
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,319
blasted When you're looking at the second chance points battle,

522
00:24:49,319 --> 00:24:51,200
I want to be clear. I think it was they

523
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,119
They lost twelve to eleven again one point margin, but

524
00:24:55,319 --> 00:24:57,400
like you're gonna go into his second half and like

525
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,200
even a little bit during the third quarter and let

526
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,759
Indiana all teams which is not I know they have

527
00:25:01,799 --> 00:25:05,559
Turner and Siakam, but they're not like this incredible offensive

528
00:25:05,559 --> 00:25:09,240
rebounding team and you're gonna let them grab over forty

529
00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:12,440
percent of their own misses for the entire half. That's

530
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,000
how you win the possession battle but.

531
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 4: Lose the game. And I would probably like to see them.

532
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: I personally, think again, I think Mark Dagnold has forgotten

533
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,720
more about basketball in the past five seconds than I

534
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:23,240
will ever know.

535
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 4: But I'm wondering if we should see them.

536
00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: Go back to that look, just because if the offense

537
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,559
is at times gonna be a slog getting your own

538
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:33,119
misses never I mean, like also just grabbing defensive boards,

539
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:34,920
that matters too. But if you can open up some

540
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,000
offensive rebounding opportunities for yourself, like that's a way to

541
00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:40,960
kind of drum up then your possession average, which was

542
00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:43,119
just not up to snuff, especially in the second half.

543
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:44,599
Speaker 2: Yeah.

544
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 3: Look, everyone came into this series basically asking the big question, oh,

545
00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:51,680
it's just a nice a Hardensteins series at all, And

546
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,559
when it was announced they wouldn't start, there was be

547
00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:57,839
the lineup change. Everyone was like kind of saying, oh, yeah,

548
00:25:58,079 --> 00:26:00,960
that makes sense. This isn't a harding Stock Hardenstein series

549
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,480
nine to nine. In seventeen minutes, he played pretty well.

550
00:26:05,839 --> 00:26:09,200
I think it's way too premature to kind of say, oh, yeah,

551
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:10,240
he can't play in this yeraries.

552
00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 2: He absolutely can.

553
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,599
Speaker 3: He absolutely needs to be the one to be the

554
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,160
primary on Miles Turner, because again, Miles Turner is no

555
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,920
longer six eleven two ten. He is six eleven two fifty,

556
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,599
and he knows how to use every damnage of his

557
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,799
body now unlike what he did when he was a youngster.

558
00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:37,759
So you need veteran leadership and veteran, honestly veteran physicality upfront.

559
00:26:38,039 --> 00:26:39,880
That's not a term I think I ever used before,

560
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,440
but I think it applies here, like someone who just

561
00:26:42,599 --> 00:26:45,000
knows how to move people around, someone who's a big

562
00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:48,079
body who could match up like I love Chet. He's

563
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,319
not there, not quite yet, at least harden Sein is.

564
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,000
So whether he starts or not, that may not matter

565
00:26:56,039 --> 00:26:58,759
to me all that much. He just needs to play

566
00:26:58,799 --> 00:27:00,440
more than seventeen minutes.

567
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: I agree, and I think it's probably gonna happen. And

568
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,960
I also think, because this was my second note, that

569
00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:10,039
kind of again bleeds into what we were just talking about.

570
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,720
I'm wondering if offensively they can do more to get

571
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,599
Shay some more separation earlier on in possessions, especially if

572
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,680
you're gonna have games where all right, Chet doesn't have

573
00:27:20,759 --> 00:27:23,759
it tonight or j Dubb is not going what was

574
00:27:23,799 --> 00:27:25,559
he six of nineteen and one of four and three

575
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,160
and where the thunders seemed to have the most success

576
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,960
on offense was Isaiah Hartenstein set in those really hard,

577
00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:35,519
pancakey screens high like against that Indiana pressure, And so

578
00:27:35,559 --> 00:27:38,880
at that point, Shay's either gonna have that runway head

579
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,200
of steam or he's just And I'd like to think

580
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,200
I've watched Shay Gildas Alexander play basketball once or twice,

581
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,759
but I I guess I forget, like what type of

582
00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:50,200
on ball thrust he could have, because he's so good

583
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,319
at like using the thattaclectic part of his game, like

584
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,799
changing his pace so much when you're about someone being

585
00:27:55,839 --> 00:28:00,000
able to split defenders and just like shoom right through them.

586
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:01,880
Like that's the other thing that those high like. Okay,

587
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,720
so Indiana's pressure is still there, and he just still

588
00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:06,960
gets through. He just needs a sliver of daylight. And

589
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:09,400
rather than having a guard come up and screen for him,

590
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,720
even rather than having Check come up and screen for him,

591
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,079
Isaiah Hartenstein is gonna get you some separation and even

592
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,039
if it's not a lot, it's gonna be enough for Shay.

593
00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:20,079
And I think that that might be dory Dan, of course,

594
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:21,839
but I just feel like when you look at the

595
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,680
offensive game that this Thunder team had and if you're

596
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,759
gonna have nights like you did for I mean, Shay

597
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,240
wasn't by his own standards. It took him thirty shots

598
00:28:31,279 --> 00:28:33,880
to get thirty eight. Like that's not a typical like

599
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,680
efficient Shay game. Like he's been more efficient. So I

600
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,319
think that that speaks to the importance of Hartenstein too,

601
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,839
is that he can help shake kills Alexander a lot

602
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,200
offensively in this series with the types of screens he's setting. Again,

603
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,640
especially if you're not getting sort of this one of

604
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:50,880
those detonations from a J.

605
00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:53,319
Speaker 4: Dub or a chet Holme grin, you're up, what.

606
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: Do you got? Look?

607
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: So shooting variants will that determine who wins the series?

608
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,359
Un thus the chip And I'm asking because the Thunder,

609
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,599
you know, we've talked about them as this very near

610
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,119
perfect team all year long. The one thing that bothered

611
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,079
me coming into the season somewhat like honestly still realizing

612
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,920
that they are a juggernaut and was do they have

613
00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:22,519
enough high volume three point shooting, be that on the bench,

614
00:29:22,599 --> 00:29:25,880
be that in the starting lineup, whatever. I felt like

615
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,680
they needed a shooter or maybe even a couple more

616
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,039
shooters to get that not just the percentage of but

617
00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:36,440
the volume up. The volume was very important here. They

618
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,279
took just thirty three pointers in game one. Indiana took

619
00:29:41,359 --> 00:29:43,960
nine more, which isn't a ton, but they made more.

620
00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:44,559
Speaker 2: They're more.

621
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: I feel as though they move the ball better, they

622
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,279
find shooters better, They're more what's the word I'm looking for?

623
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,759
Volatile from a spacing perspective, Whereas I think, okay, see,

624
00:29:56,799 --> 00:29:59,640
like they're consistent, but they're never that team to just

625
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,400
break out and go completely nuts from behind the arc.

626
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,240
So my question is what the hell happens here? Like

627
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,119
if the Pacers are going to keep hitting like eighteen

628
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,839
threes per game at forty six percent and the thunder

629
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,319
don't really respond and they're like in the mid thirties

630
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,880
taking low volume three pointers, like they will have to

631
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,079
just grind their weight to the free throw line at

632
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,640
ton or convert at a ridiculous rate at their twos.

633
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,720
Their defense has to be ensued, they have to win

634
00:30:28,759 --> 00:30:30,759
the rebound back, like, everything has to go right for

635
00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:34,079
them to sort of even the scales here. So are

636
00:30:34,119 --> 00:30:40,519
we looking at something as potentially simplistic as shooting variants?

637
00:30:40,599 --> 00:30:41,960
Is this going to be the main thing.

638
00:30:43,319 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: I don't think it's unfair to boil a lot of

639
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,279
this series down to that, especially if I mean, again,

640
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,279
I don't expect Okac to shoot like where were they

641
00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:54,200
twelve of twenty one at the rim or whatever it

642
00:30:54,279 --> 00:30:58,000
only was at all series, But like, if Miles Turner

643
00:30:58,039 --> 00:31:00,319
is going to be out there and cause those types

644
00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:03,200
of problems for you, and if you're also not gonna

645
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,160
have like these picture perfect games from your most important

646
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,839
supporting cast members, three point shooting is a way to.

647
00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 4: Make up a lot of that gap.

648
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:13,839
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, like sitting here and I

649
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,039
know he's been he's become a better shooter. He's definitely

650
00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:17,920
a more willing shooter than he was a half decade ago.

651
00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:20,039
But you don't want to waste a game where you

652
00:31:20,039 --> 00:31:22,640
get five made threes from lou Dort And that's kind

653
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,200
of what the Thunder frittered away. And so that's I think,

654
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,200
you know, Also why I think it's more important is

655
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,880
I don't know that people appreciate just like how good

656
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,599
of a shooting team that Indiana can be. I know

657
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,319
that they're not going to take the most threes in

658
00:31:35,319 --> 00:31:38,759
the league, but when you look at their lineup, who

659
00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:40,880
is their their core five Like that started, like who

660
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,359
is their shooter that you trust the least on that

661
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,359
and then if the answer is Nemhard or Siakam or Turner, like,

662
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,319
if that's your week outside threat, you're in pretty damn

663
00:31:51,359 --> 00:31:53,160
good shape. And then you go to the bench and

664
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,559
it's all right. Ben Sheppard could be a little rocky,

665
00:31:55,559 --> 00:31:57,039
but Obi Toppin can get him up.

666
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:58,839
Speaker 4: We've seen five.

667
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bennan mcmathrin can like like he'll go through heaters

668
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,079
as well.

669
00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 4: So they do have.

670
00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: More bankability when it comes to shooting, I think than

671
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,359
the Thunderdue, who I think still have just the better

672
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:13,440
collection of talent.

673
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 4: But that's probably something that didn't.

674
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,039
Speaker 1: Get talked about enough is that the Pacers I think

675
00:32:18,079 --> 00:32:20,240
a lot of attention has been paid to their defensive improvement,

676
00:32:20,359 --> 00:32:22,599
as it should be, and then just like, oh, look

677
00:32:22,599 --> 00:32:25,000
at how fast they play on offense, and Tyre's Haliburton's

678
00:32:25,039 --> 00:32:27,599
the engine that drives it all and Aeronie Smith's been

679
00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:30,160
fun and Pascal Siakam is able to operate in the

680
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,519
muck but also on the break. And it's not like

681
00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:34,839
this team like they will they can kill you if

682
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:35,359
they need to.

683
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,039
Speaker 3: From all yeah, oh, yeah, they can. And the thing

684
00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:40,279
is they can do it in half court situations too.

685
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,400
This isn't a seam that's just jacking threes in transition too.

686
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,319
They can set them up within their half court schemes.

687
00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:48,920
This is something you and I we talked about way

688
00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:51,799
back in I want to say December.

689
00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: Or January maybe.

690
00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:56,519
Speaker 3: Where we were talking about the Pacers as this team

691
00:32:56,599 --> 00:32:59,720
that was capable of slowing it down, just as they

692
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,160
were able to just kind of hit the you know,

693
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,240
hit the brakes and like or so not hit the breaks,

694
00:33:05,319 --> 00:33:09,400
just speed things up for them to be able to

695
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,079
manufacture shots the way that they're doing be that when

696
00:33:13,119 --> 00:33:16,000
the game is slowed down or when it's high paced, like,

697
00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:17,039
how do you guard that?

698
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: How do you think?

699
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 3: Okay, you can go up, you can go up and

700
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,720
say let's let's slow this game down, let's let's force

701
00:33:22,759 --> 00:33:26,000
them into a half court, half court game. They'll still

702
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:28,519
manufacture the living fuck out of those situations.

703
00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:35,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like their offense is so dynamic and I

704
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,920
just don't sometimes I don't think I even fully appreciate it, right,

705
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,319
And so that's and that's to say that about going up,

706
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,160
like the thunder defense is the tenth circle of hell.

707
00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:46,000
I want to make that clear, and I think they

708
00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:49,160
made that clear, like early on in Game one. But

709
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,720
if when you were looking at the Eastern Conference Finals specifically,

710
00:33:52,839 --> 00:33:55,440
or even look, I'll say this, going up against this

711
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,759
Thunder defense, the stretches were a full that a full

712
00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:02,079
strength Boston squad was prone to going into for the series,

713
00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:05,279
you might have preferred to see full strength Boston versus Okay, see,

714
00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:09,199
but offensively, the Pacers are probably it would have been

715
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,079
the Pacers or maybe the Cavs for me would have

716
00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:14,760
been the offense is best equipped to give this Thunder

717
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,880
defense a real run for their money. And I just

718
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:19,719
I mean, you don't want to see them have to

719
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,000
get like down fifteen points in the fourth quarter and

720
00:34:22,039 --> 00:34:24,880
it's oh, another ninety nine percent win probability for their opponent.

721
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,440
They got to come back and do it. At some

722
00:34:26,519 --> 00:34:28,519
point you would assume they're gonna run out of magic,

723
00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:31,760
but they haven't yet, and their just ability to adjust

724
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,440
and it's death buy like a thousand cuts. But I'm

725
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,880
not talking about like necessarily the actual off ball movement

726
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,239
or though there's plenty of that. It's just what do

727
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,159
you need from them on offense, and they'll most likely

728
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:45,000
find a way to give it to you on any like.

729
00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 4: They will figure it out.

730
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 1: Maybe not right away, maybe not for the entire game,

731
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,000
but as the game and the series goes on, they

732
00:34:50,039 --> 00:34:50,880
will figure it out.

733
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it kind of dawned on me.

734
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:56,159
Speaker 3: We had this thing back in Phoenix when you said

735
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:59,320
seven seconds or Shack, like, you could get this the

736
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,679
quick Steve Nash shot. If that didn't materialize, you could

737
00:35:02,679 --> 00:35:06,000
go to Shack in the half court setting. There's no

738
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,360
one pacer you can say that about. You can't go

739
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,519
seven seconds or Sam like, yeah you can, but you

740
00:35:12,559 --> 00:35:16,599
can also go in every other direction. So they have

741
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,599
this uncanny abible to go seven seconds or well, we'll

742
00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:21,199
figure it out.

743
00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:25,519
Speaker 4: And I'd be like, is it more like four seconds?

744
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,679
Four seconds?

745
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 2: Or we'll figure it out?

746
00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 3: And that is that is such a daunting thing to

747
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,239
go up against, regardless of who you are. I mean,

748
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,159
look and side note, we're talking about like schematics and

749
00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:42,280
we're talking about all the adjustments and whatnot. This could not,

750
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,519
from an entertainment perspective, be a better start to a series.

751
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:53,159
This has This game one had fucking everything everything. It

752
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,000
was a gorgeously executed game, like, yeah, I know the

753
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,679
Thunder missed a bunch of shots. I know the PACER's

754
00:35:59,679 --> 00:36:02,920
started to bowl over Is sixteen million times, and yet

755
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:07,239
that didn't take away from the factor of enjoyment that

756
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,920
we all had watching this game. We all and Junison

757
00:36:10,039 --> 00:36:13,679
were like, oh, this is basketball porn. This was great

758
00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:16,400
and for us to talk about all the avenue hues

759
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,320
they can still approve upon. Just suggest to me even further,

760
00:36:21,039 --> 00:36:24,440
this series could go long and we'd all be better

761
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:24,840
for it.

762
00:36:25,159 --> 00:36:27,119
Speaker 4: I hope it has Game one done.

763
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: I had Thunder and five, you had Pacers, and six

764
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:30,639
is game one.

765
00:36:32,119 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 4: And Thunder and six.

766
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,360
Speaker 1: Excuse me, I think I had to write something immediately after,

767
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,199
and I said this series it was bold predictions for

768
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:40,639
the rest of the series. I just said the series

769
00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:42,840
is going seven because we deserve it to go seven

770
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,000
after seeing two five game finals. But I do think

771
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,639
this doesn't change my opinion that I really do think

772
00:36:48,679 --> 00:36:50,320
the Thunder are inevitable.

773
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,639
Speaker 4: This year and maybe moving forward. I really do believe that.

774
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: But I continue to have even when I think that

775
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,840
I fully appreciate, relative to consensus, the Pacers enough, they

776
00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:02,360
continue to show me that I do not. And that

777
00:37:02,559 --> 00:37:05,239
was probably my biggest takeaway from Game one is that

778
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:06,920
you can say there's a lot of things okay, see

779
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,159
you can clean up, and you will be right. There

780
00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:11,519
are things that Indiana can still clean up as well too.

781
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:17,039
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, look, uh look, I'm an old grouch who

782
00:37:17,079 --> 00:37:19,880
can't wait for the season to end just because I'm

783
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,599
tired personally, but I want this series to go as

784
00:37:24,679 --> 00:37:26,239
long as humanly possible, because.

785
00:37:26,199 --> 00:37:28,519
Speaker 4: Give me eight more games of it somehow right here.

786
00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:31,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't care, Like, just extend it if you

787
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,320
want to, like, let's go best to fifteen.

788
00:37:33,519 --> 00:37:34,079
Speaker 2: It's fine.

789
00:37:35,519 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 3: It's this because these are the kind of games where

790
00:37:39,559 --> 00:37:42,639
fatigue and like a long seed season, all that goes

791
00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:44,519
out the window when you actually watch the game and

792
00:37:44,559 --> 00:37:47,679
when you're sitting there late at night. For me at least,

793
00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:50,199
I'm just sitting there going, oh yeah, this is special

794
00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:51,960
and that's the feeling you want.

795
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:55,199
Speaker 1: And the final thing I'll say is what I think

796
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,719
is making me a little giddy, not to can be

797
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,559
confused with Josh giddy. The two coaches is that we

798
00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:03,519
have in this series in Mark that Rick Carlisle. They're

799
00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:07,440
true sickos that will hashtag try shit, yep, and they

800
00:38:07,519 --> 00:38:11,320
have this extended break in between games to figure out

801
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,920
what they're gonna try, and so like, now that we're

802
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,800
not in this every other day pattern, I'm sort of

803
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,280
like that, like that meme, like coming around the tree

804
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,199
and wiping my hands together. For anyone who's watching it

805
00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:23,039
on YouTube, I'm just like, what are we gonna see?

806
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,079
Is it we're telling the thunder to go bigger? Do

807
00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:27,320
they just bench Chet Holmgrend and Isaiah Hartenstein and have

808
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:28,440
j Doub play center again?

809
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: Case Wallace at center? Sure right?

810
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:31,039
Speaker 3: Not.

811
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: Everyone's like Casey Wallas probably needs to play less and

812
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,639
Mark Daniels like, fuck you, he's playing forty five minutes

813
00:38:35,679 --> 00:38:36,159
in game two.

814
00:38:36,679 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, Alex Crust point guard, let's go nuts.

815
00:38:41,039 --> 00:38:43,519
Speaker 4: Absolutely bring Shay off the bench.

816
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's going for six.

817
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,199
Speaker 4: He got MVP, he needs now needs to get some

818
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:47,920
six here.

819
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 3: No, but you're right though, And and that's the thing,

820
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,360
because one of them is probably going to overcorrect on

821
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,760
something as well, and then they're gonna be oh ship,

822
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,360
and then they're gonna go back to the drawing board afterwards.

823
00:38:58,519 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 2: It's like the This is.

824
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 3: Why I also always prefer to watch players who think

825
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,199
the game out. That's why I'm such a big Luka

826
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,199
guy Jokic guide, like the guys who just on the

827
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,000
fly reads stuff and goes, oh, yeah, I'm supposed to

828
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:17,039
do A, but I have to do B because that's

829
00:39:17,079 --> 00:39:18,079
the best option I.

830
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: Can read, you know, at my own capability. Here For me,

831
00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:22,960
I had to go this route instead.

832
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,199
Speaker 3: So when you combine that with coaches who are as

833
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,239
you said, true sikos Man, you just get the best

834
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,679
fucking product out of it. And I've realized it sounds

835
00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:38,840
like I'm fillatioing DNBA right now, But look, it's I

836
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,960
genuinely believe this is great for the product, It's great

837
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,280
for the interest. Yeah, it's two small markets teams. I

838
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,400
don't give a fuck. It's great basketball. Isn't that the

839
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:49,199
whole point?

840
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: Honestly, I haven't seen anything since we leading into the series.

841
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,760
I saw something about the market stuff, and I don't

842
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,639
know if I guess I'm pleasantly surprised I didn't think

843
00:39:57,639 --> 00:39:59,760
of it, But I haven't seen a whole like oh,

844
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:01,920
is like that game won you said it was a

845
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,119
perfect start to the series.

846
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:04,599
Speaker 4: That's actually part of why.

847
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: Even if you want to dismiss the people that talk

848
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,159
about the market stuff. It gets talked about. There probably

849
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,519
is some impact on the bottom line or viewership. I

850
00:40:12,519 --> 00:40:15,599
don't know, don't I don't really care. But like if

851
00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:18,239
you were just sort of choppering in and haven't watched

852
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,679
any of the NBA playoffs or didn't have an allegiance

853
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,679
or any interest in either of these two teams, and

854
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,400
you sat through most or all of Game one, as

855
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,599
long as you sat through, like I'm sure a bunch

856
00:40:27,639 --> 00:40:29,800
of people turned it off when Okay, so he went

857
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,119
up fifteen in the fourth quarter, They're like, oh, sweep

858
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,119
or something is coming. That was a perfect opening game

859
00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:39,360
because it disproved so many preconceived notions, including some of

860
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,519
our own, but including that larger one of just like

861
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,679
there was the one about the lack of star power

862
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,880
in this series, which is just like, yeah, Tyrus Aliburton

863
00:40:47,159 --> 00:40:51,440
is built different, he's a psychopath, and the.

864
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 4: Pacers also the.

865
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: Albert Can I pour some cold water on that though

866
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,960
I like it as a like a having a chip

867
00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:02,360
on his shoulder for us to make jokes and talk about.

868
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 4: When you do the math, it was like less than

869
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,400
twelve players. I called him.

870
00:41:06,559 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 2: I know it.

871
00:41:07,079 --> 00:41:10,079
Speaker 3: I've said this before and it's it's totally valid. I

872
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,159
just love throwing that out there because it just seems

873
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:15,079
so preposterous now and it's just it's gotten a whole

874
00:41:15,119 --> 00:41:18,360
lot of attention. And look, if he needs that to

875
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,599
feed all of that, A might to judge, that's fine

876
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,639
if you need that to give us that type of

877
00:41:23,679 --> 00:41:25,559
performance like lat in games.

878
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 4: I think the ringer ranked him. I don't know if

879
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:29,480
they were doing there.

880
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 1: I didn't actually look at the list, but the ringer

881
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,559
had him like the fifth best player in the league

882
00:41:33,639 --> 00:41:35,159
or the seventh best player in the league right now.

883
00:41:35,199 --> 00:41:37,519
So I think the overrated conversation is actually gonna get

884
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:43,239
more widespread because of it. So that's he'll have plenty

885
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,440
of motivation then, because I'm sure that stuff is fluttering

886
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,599
around out there, but he is having this. It might

887
00:41:48,639 --> 00:41:52,119
be captive of the moment type deal. I don't know

888
00:41:52,159 --> 00:41:55,239
that I've ever seen just like a more clutch postseason run.

889
00:41:55,360 --> 00:42:00,559
We've seen clutcher shots, although not many at the just

890
00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:03,400
made one of the finals, but like, this is a

891
00:42:03,559 --> 00:42:08,119
generational clutch performance from him across the entire postseason.

892
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I'm I'm thinking back to Mike, and even

893
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,079
Mike didn't have this many moments in the same year,

894
00:42:15,519 --> 00:42:20,559
like collectively, Okay, Mike is like far ahead, but in

895
00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:26,000
the same year, I don't think so, Like I'm am

896
00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:30,320
I forgetting someone Like is there anyone who was that clutch?

897
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,760
Like Jamal Murray had major performances, but that was the clutch,

898
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:34,519
right like that.

899
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 1: Rest Damian Lillard's had like two series winners, which is

900
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:38,639
kind of crazy.

901
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 4: That's up there for sure.

902
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 3: But those were so different years, which okay, yeah, that's

903
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,480
like you said, that's you said it series enders though,

904
00:42:48,519 --> 00:42:50,880
that's that's fair. That's a difference than just a game ender.

905
00:42:51,039 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: Honestly, they proved to be like era ending for those teams.

906
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,159
Remember what happened to the Rockets and the thunder after

907
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:57,480
Lillard did those shots?

908
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, now the Thunderer, it's taking taking it all. Just

909
00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:03,079
got a trade Paul George. Man, that's the recipe. So

910
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,559
next year if that's just that's the Sixers mission. Now

911
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,519
get off the Paul George contract. You'll be in the

912
00:43:09,519 --> 00:43:10,800
finals in about twelve months.

913
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 2: It's fine.

914
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: Mark, Do you have anything else to add or would

915
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,480
you like to tell our subscribers or are non subscribers

916
00:43:18,519 --> 00:43:20,679
who are gonna get on YouTube, Spotify, Apple the whole

917
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,960
night and subscribe already and rock with us forever and

918
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,039
ever and ever and always where they can find you

919
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:27,400
and all the fantastic work that you do.

920
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 3: Yes, so when I remember to upload, you can find

921
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,719
my stuff. We're at the NBA podcast I always do.

922
00:43:36,079 --> 00:43:39,800
I also do a Danish podcast called Busser Peter, and

923
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,280
I write for Forbes and Yahoo Sports and you can

924
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,199
just type my name into Google and those things will

925
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,199
pop up, or you can find me a blue sky

926
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:53,039
at MSJ NBA. I'm not that super active anymore on

927
00:43:53,079 --> 00:43:56,599
social media, which frankly feels pretty nice.

928
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,599
Speaker 2: Honestly, that's a bad way to I'm just gonna sit.

929
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 4: You know. That's a terrible way to promote your social media.

930
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: I know I'm sorry about that, but like I'm still

931
00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:08,679
I'm still there occasionally, and when I am, it's always

932
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,400
with enthusiasm, even though I say dumb shit with I am.

933
00:44:13,159 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 4: On social media like a true superhero. So you can

934
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,719
come follow me wherever you're on social media.

935
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,559
Speaker 1: Until next time, and as always, leave with the one

936
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,039
shout out to the one, the only the player who

937
00:44:23,159 --> 00:44:25,079
might be signed and then rolled out. In Game two

938
00:44:25,119 --> 00:44:26,960
of the Finals, by one of these teams, who knows

939
00:44:27,079 --> 00:44:28,920
mister Frank HeLa