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Speaker 1: Telling you that you've kind of figured out all the

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secrets and you know you're the great uh, you know,

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esoteric masters. It's just a delusion playing on our pride

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as human beings to want to be kind of some

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kind of special, you know, because of the matrix type

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of person.

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Speaker 2: When I always give these uh talks about demons and

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I refer back to kind of folklore, whether it's rumpelstilt

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Scan or.

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Speaker 3: The Genie, the Jendni demon, they're.

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Speaker 2: All throughout different cultures and stuff like that. It's always

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this esotericism, right, you'll get this, you're the person that

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And what do you notice in a lot of these

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stories and in actual real cases too. For example, Alistair

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Curley did he die smarter than ever with his mind

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drug addict and a yeah, I've lost his mind. And

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there's this devil's bargain right.

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Speaker 1: All of his women three by the way, that half

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of them ended up in insane asylums and committed suit

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a lot.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: So this is kind of a sign of the demonic

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right that these people are smart enough to crack the

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code and figure this out of stade, what.

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Speaker 3: Do they do? They end up losing their mind, So.

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Speaker 2: The devil promises in this bargain, Oh you're the one.

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Speaker 3: You're you look at your mind, how brilliant it is.

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And in the bargain in the contract.

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Speaker 2: When that you you play around with this, you actually

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end up losing the one thing that you thought you were,

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that you had and this that.

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Speaker 1: Was so great. Yeah, you idolize your mind and your

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IQ and your reasoning and your you know, powers of

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mental faculties, you know, and then the bargain is that

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that becomes your god and then you lose it.

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Speaker 3: Yep, exactly.

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Speaker 1: It's a really perceptive point. Yeah, so people in the

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chat are asking, yes, we are talking about the tendency

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of people in the domain of conspiracy, in the domain

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of Gamatria online. You know, like when Jim Bob was

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debating that Gamatria guy, that was just crazy and it's

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like it's number one, it's a con man system. Like

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that guy seemed like a conman because he was just

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like telling everybody to go buy his course on how

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to predict the future and win and like win the

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lottery through Gamatria. But to the people who buy into it,

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a lot of those people are you know, potentially also

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dealing with perhaps some kind of mental issue, like like

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father Deacon's talking about Lord of the Nerds. Five dollars,

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says Stitch Adam in short, fat, I'll tak you. I

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don't know who that is. Reviewed your debate. They said

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that you embarrassed philosophy because no one cares about a pistemology.

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Father Deacon, you're a professor of a pistemology and logic.

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Is it true that no one cares about a pistemology

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As a philosophy professor.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to keep that hidden.

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Speaker 3: I didn't want anybody to find that out.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're gonna get fired now because you've been You're

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a fraud. You're gonna get defrocked. You're gonna get defrocked

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from philosophy because you you teach a discipline that is no.

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Speaker 2: Longer told everybody that everybody cared about epistemology, and that's

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why I actually have a job teaching a pistemology in

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this guymore Man, Well it was a good run, lads.

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Speaker 1: Time to pack it up. Go back to uh. I

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don't know what you used to do. Used to be

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a skateboarder or a skier. Maybe you can be a

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professional skier because it's over for you.

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Speaker 3: I used to be a professional.

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Speaker 2: Clown, rodeo clown, a roller.

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Speaker 1: Roller blade clown. Is that is that on the totem

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pole of clown dum? Is that above or below a

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rodeo clown.

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Speaker 3: Had jenco pants and it was a clown on roller blades?

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Speaker 1: But is that?

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Speaker 3: I was like the epitome of the nineties. I feel

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like you could imagine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but is that above or below a rodeo clowne

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in the clown hierarchy.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's a great question, only if we had an

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epistemologist to answer it.

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Speaker 3: Huh. I guess we'll never know anything. I don't know,

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like I've never looked.

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Speaker 2: Epistemology is a pretty big field in you know, look, yeah,

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it doesn't exist.

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Speaker 3: There's two streams.

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Speaker 2: Possibly three, in philosophy, continental that deals with phenomenology, existentialism.

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Speaker 3: And that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Then you have analytic philosophy, which deals with philosophy of language,

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philosophy of mind, metaphysics, and uh logic.

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Speaker 3: Then the possible third could just be uh a history

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of philosophy. Usually ancient philosophy will.

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Speaker 2: Go in there. Those are the main stream, the two

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biggest streams are just continental and analytics. Among analytic, which

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is definitely the dominant school in the United States and

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the UK. Ireland, epistemology is huge, So yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Where supposedly, although again, do you have a source for

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that or is that just all ad hoc from you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you got gosh, you can expose me.

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Speaker 1: You are done for it, Stan Patron five pounds, Jay,

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I learned more here than anywhere else. You helped to

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get me out of perennialism and degenerously. Thank you, brother,

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hey man, that's great to hear. I hope you're moving

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in the direction of orthodoxy. Suki for all five This

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is for your foot farts. Yes they were foot farts.

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I promise I can keep I can keep mimicking them,

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unless you think that I can just rip it on command.

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Yon Quantum Yakoub two dollars. That was an uncreative foot fart. Correct,

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it was lazy eyes became a member, Daniel became a member.

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G twenty six says I lost it, Jay, God blessed.

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Keep doing your thing and shut down all these haters.

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Thanks man, appreciate that. Otis Solier five dollars. Did you

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see Albert talking to doctor Joshua on the Trinity. I

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did not would you do a review on that? I

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don't know. Adam Crazy five Bucks, the lawyer to Orthodox

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pipeline Israel. Yeah, shout out to Adam the thank you

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for the law bro shout out there. Yeah, you're welcome.

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Of course, that's you are who I had in mind.

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I enjoy I enjoyed all your West Coast podcast tour. Well,

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guess what, the meat of it hasn't even come out yet.

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The full four hour Ruslon debate hasn't come out, and

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the Hodge Twins hasn't come out, and both of those

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are bangers, so the real heat hasn't come yet. Valerian

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since twenty runs. Thank you Steve mcloven five dollars. Do

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you think Mohammed or a companion saw an icon of

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Jesus with a book and took it literal? You know what?

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It could be something like that. I mean that you

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might be joking, but it literally could be something like

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because you know, people think he was influenced by a

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Nestorian monks and maybe the Mystorian monks told him. You know, oh,

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those Orthodox are apostates. Look at the pictures they have,

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and you know, maybe he saw a picture of Jesus

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with the Gospels or something and he thought that that

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was the ngeal that came down Like that's actually pretty

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good because Mohammed was unlettered, right, So he probably did

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see an icon and just derived his ideas from that.

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Nick twenty bucks, I'm a Protestant here. I love your videos.

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I have a question if the Orthodox Church interprets scripture,

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who interprets the Orthodox Church's decrees? So again, like we

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were saying earlier, to the guy they called the reformed

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guy they called it in at the beginning, we don't

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make I don't make the argument that the Roman Catholic

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apologists do that just appealing to the papacy gives you

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this certainty. All of us are in the same boat.

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We're all going to have to do the work of interpreting.

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The difference between us and the papists or whoever is

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that Number one. We have different means that we think

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the script that the spirit's using, we think it's the

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Council's teaching to the church fathers, experience of the liturgy,

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et cetera, et cetera, as well as the Bible. If

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you're a Roman Catholic, at the end of the day,

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it's you interpreting the papal magisterium. And if you're a Protestant,

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at the end of the day, it's you and the

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Holy Spirit and the scriptures. So it's not a question

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of an infinite regression of interpretation. That's the way that

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Roman Catholic pop apologists usually frame this debate in a

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very low tier bad way, and that's why many Protestants

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come asking us. I'm not faulting you for asking this question, Nick,

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it's a fair question. Many Protestants ask us this question

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because they've only heard bad Roman Catholic arguments that, well,

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you don't have a pope. We have the pope, so

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we have certainty. The pope doesn't give you a certainty

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if you listen to that guy that we heard the

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other day, or or the cal guy Angelo. I put

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it on my clips channel. This guy right here, he

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literally goes back and forth contradicting himself like twenty times

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in sixteen minutes on the very point that you're asking.

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And so if any Protestant says, hey, this is an

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inconsistent argument from Roman Catholics, I will agree with you.

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That doesn't make me Protestant. I'm agreeing with the argument. Right,

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Come on.

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Speaker 2: Both of those positions, because Roman Catholic and Protestant have

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the same position, they just go different directions from the presupposition.

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They're both thoroughly reductive, right, so they believe they can

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reduce an epistemic question to one principle, whereas we would say,

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kato holos, it's the whole thing. Number two of I

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said this too. Both are thoroughly modern. They have this

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kind of Cartesian obsession with absolute certitude infallibility. What's the question?

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Can I know that orthodoxy is true or dogmatic? You

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don't have to have.

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Speaker 3: A Cartesian strong theory.

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Speaker 2: Of knowledge to be like, why have to eliminate every possibility?

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Speaker 3: My justification has to be induble, clear and distinct. That's insane.

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Nobody even holds that in epistemology or philosophy because.

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Speaker 2: Of what you just pointed out. You wouldn't be able

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to know anything if you have that high standard. So

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I don't know why, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean I do.

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Speaker 2: It's important to point out both those groups are obsessed

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with some type of Cartesian certitude of infallibility, but for

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some for most of us, would accept that knowledge just has.

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Speaker 3: To be is it true?

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Speaker 2: Do I believe it's true? And do I have sufficient

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justification for it? Not infallible? Now, of course we have

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a level of infallibili and orts doox.

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Speaker 3: But been noticed we're not obsessed with that.

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Speaker 2: It's not how do I know absolutely for certain unless

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I eliminate every possibility and have a Cartesian and dubability

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and can defeat the evil demon deceiving me in a multiverse?

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Speaker 3: Were like, it's a total insanity, right and totally modern.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think one of the streams x spaces that

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you and I were doing when I was on the road,

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you had a really good comment on that, how rem

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Catholicism is very close to that kind of Cartesian idea

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of getting absolute certitude for doctrines. And what's funny is

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that the way that they think they do it is

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by appealing to this external juridical office called the papacy.

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And it's like, do you understand that from a practical perspective,

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you're in an even worse position than a Protestant because

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a Protestant it's like them in the Bible, which is

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what a few thousand pages, but as a Roman Catholic

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gets you in like thousands of pages of papal documents.

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It's even more more stuff that you kind of try

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to actually.

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Speaker 3: Have the Protestant actually has the upper hand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in regard to the like on the grounds like

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who has more work to do. It's like it's just

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such a silly position that it's missing the epistemic point.

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But to your point there, Nick, what I would say

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is that all of us, at the end of the

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day are relying on the Holy Spirit to guide us

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for individual certainty. But we disagree on the means that

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the Holy Spirit uses, which we just discussed. And then lastly,

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the big difference is what's called normive authority. Normativity is

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when you can say that there's an ought right, you

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ought to do this versus that. And in this case,

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the context is referring to a historical body of people

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with Norman authority. If you're a Protestant, you don't believe

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in that, Okay. The Classical Reformation is very adamant, very clear.

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All the Reformers, as far as I'm aware, teach that

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nobody has the authority to bind anyone's conscience to their interpretation,

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even a presbyter, even a reformer can't bind you to

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his interpretation in terms of moral authority and in other words,

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like if you don't believe in the Westminster Confessions interpretation,

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you are excommunicated, you're out of the church. That doesn't

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exist in Protestanism because it's built on write a private interpretation,

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freedom of conscience, freedom of worship. Okay, if you read

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nic Nicia doesn't work that way. Nicia is very clear

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that either you interpret the text of Scripture Affanatius, et

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cetera and Homousius to mean that Jesus is fully divine,

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or you're with Arias and you're excommunicated from the church.

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You're out of here. So that's the difference normative authority,

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not the question of how do we get individual certitude?

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Bird created by Jesus became a member. How would you

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reply to this Protestant argument church history is not trustworthy

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because the church wrote history and they protected themselves. Well,

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the first thing I said, and all that Father Deacon

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comments on it, is that's an assertion. So to say

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something like we cannot church trust church history because they

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wrote it, well, they who? And on what grounds is

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that reason to distrust it? So, first of all, it's

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just an assertion. It's not actually argument. It's a claim.

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It's not an argument, Father Deacon, what would you say, Well.

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Speaker 2: It's at atheist like ridiculous standard. For example, you have

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the apostles as the eyewitnesses of the resurrection at you.

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Speaker 3: Know, and they're like, well, that doesn't count because they're biased.

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Speaker 2: We have to find somebody that witnessed an event that

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would convert you, who yet don't believe. And so I'm like, well,

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this is just a category era. That's like saying I

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got this mathematition detic hid of it, but he has

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this really amazing kind of mathematical conclusion about completing the

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number line between rational and irrational numbers, known as the

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detic line cut.

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Speaker 3: Obviously he's not trustworthy Jay, because he's a mathematician.

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Speaker 2: So I need to establish that mathematical conclusion.

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Speaker 3: From somebody who isn't that master. Do you see the problem?

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Speaker 1: That's a great point. I was not aware. I've never

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heard that before.

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Speaker 3: So that's what they're asking.

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Speaker 2: It's like, of course, it's going to be the people

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who are immersed in the community who are of that

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you know, specialization. I want to talk about higher textual

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criticism too, because this is the kind of thing that

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higher textual critics kind of use it. We'll just treat

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this thing as like anything else. But they're inconsistent. They

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don't so any other text like Tacitus or anything like that.

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If an individual is are real, they don't just simply

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historians look at the book.

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Speaker 3: They'll actually take the evidence from the community.

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Speaker 2: And history around those and the traditions as part of

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the evidence unless proven otherwise. Oh no, no, no, but not

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with the church, right, So all for me, none for

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the fallacy. So there's a real inconsistency, yes, And categorically

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that's exactly the sort of evidence that you would want

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is from the people who preserve were part of the

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community who.

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Speaker 3: Wrote the text, right, who were eyewitnesses. So it doesn't

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even make sense.

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Speaker 2: It's like saying, I need a non mathematician to give

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me to believe in mathematical conclusion, because mathematicians.

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Speaker 3: Are biased, exactly, they believe in numbers. We need to

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find somebody who doesn't believe in numbers to give me

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a man.

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Speaker 1: That's the only way. How do you know that objectivity

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is just from the camp that doesn't believe in it too,

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that's exactly the atheist motivation too, Right, It's like I

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can only trust somebody who has the atheist presuppositions. Well,

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that's just kind of poisoning the well and kind of

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waiting the debate for your side from the outset. And

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that's why it's important. You know, a lot of times

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people don't just appeal to church historians. So for example,

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one of the reasons that the patristic writers who end

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up being heretics or who are historians or whatever outside

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the Church, they're still relevant because they attest to and

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become evidences for the Orthodox position the history of the church,

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et cetera. Right, Tourtullian is still very valuable. Origin is

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very valuable, Eusebius is very valuable. Even though they're not

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Orthodox fathers and they're not saints and they're heterodox, they're

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still very relevant as well as quote secular historians throughout

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that time period too. So no, it's not just relying

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on you know, apologists of the church to know church history.

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There are other sources outside of the church as well.

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Now the next question is I'm assuming, due to doctor

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Joshua's debate or discussion with Albrich, I've not heard this yet.

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I don't know all of doctor Joshua's position. What I

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know and what I promote is doctor Branson's position, which

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is the Orthodox position. So when people ask about monarchical trinitarianism,

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everyone needs to go watch doctor Branson's lectures before you

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start trying to argue with it or debate it, or

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you're going to misunderstand it. Now, not talking to you,

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Let's talk God. When you sent the superched it's a

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great question. Can you break down the notion of Jesus

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being God by predication or by identity? Why do we

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make this distinction so monarchical trinitarianism. If you start with

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his lecture here, doctor Branson's going to explain that in

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the early Church are particularly in the Creed and in

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the Cappadocians, and that's what matters the most, because for

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the Trinity constantin up On one is pretty much the

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church's dogmatizing of the doctrine of the Trinity, and that's

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all Cappadocian theology. In fact, the council actually stated, or

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the Emperor at the council said, everyone has to agree

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with Nissa's formulation or you're not Orthodox. That's constantinople ones mindset,

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and so that mindset is what's called monarchical trinitarianism. Just

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like the Creed, it says we believe in one God,

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the Father. When we use that term the one God,

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we are primarily picking out the person of the Father.

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It is not primarily referring to the common divine essence.

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And this is a pretty big distinction between the Orthodox

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conception of the Trinity and the Tomistic conception of the Trinity.

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I would typically say Roman Catholicism in general, at least

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pretty much dogmatically if you look at the Fourth Lattering Council,

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because it uses the Lombard definition of simplicity, which is

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essentially kind of an essentialist, reductionist position identity thesis. It's

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called versus you know the Uniates, right, So the Uniates,

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which are very much a minority, would probably agree with

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the Orthodox on this. So you can't technically say that

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every single Roman Catholic has this essentialist Thomistic model, but

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at least dogmatically. Officially, for the most part, ninety nine

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percent of Romantholicism is not monarchical trinitarianism. So they get

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hung up on things like does Jesus derive his divinity,

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and does he depend on the Father for his hypostasis

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and his uh, for his divinity, for his essence, And

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the answer is yes. In fact, it's not just nicea

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that teaches. It's not just constant noble, it's nicea one

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that teaches that the son depends on the Father for

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his existence and for his essence and for his hypostasis

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to the whole of the son. The totality of the

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son is dependent on the Father. And it's a Muslim

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argument to think that because there's dependence, that they're therefore

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they are not all God. This is called the Eunomian premise.

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And if you watch the debate between Jake and doctor Branson,

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doctor Branson shows through a logic table that Jake is

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using a fallacy, and Jake eventually just melts down and

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loses it right. He totally flounders loses the debate because

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you can't demonstrate that to be amongst the class of

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things called God or uncreated, you must possess a sayety

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or that you cannot come from another. It's just like

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every time we do this analogy, I'm hoping people can

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understand it. You can be a carnivore and you can

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be an omnivore. Right, they are both amongst the class

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of things that eat meat, but one of them has

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additional properties of not just eating meat, but also eating vegetables.

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But if you are a omnivore, you are also a carnivore.

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So omnivore and carnivore are under the class of things

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that quote eat meat. Even though the one, the omnivore,

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has more things that it eats, has more properties and

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traits than the carnivore, it doesn't mean that because the

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carnivore lacks what the omnivor has, it's therefore not amongst

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the class of meat eaters. It's a very simple, once

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00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:17,000
again grammar argument, and when you listen to doctor Branson's lectures,

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he will actually go into grammar. A lot of these

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issues are mistakes that are made in grammar. So likewise,

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when it comes to Mormon excuse mean Muslims in the Trinity,

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they try to argue that the word God can only

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have one reference, It can only refer to the divine essence.

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But the word God refers to, at least in the

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Cappadocian theology, almost entirely the Father. Does that mean the

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Son isn't divine, or isn't quote God, or isn't fully

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whatever in terms of nature. No, because he derives his

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existence his person is entire hypostasis from the Father. It

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does not follow that he's Onto logically subordinate. And to

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prove that you have to prove this point about the

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logic table that the Unomian premise that that Jake tries

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to prove to doctor Branson that somehow to be God

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necessarily in the definition of God is a sayity, and

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that's not true because the Son does not possess a saiety.

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He is from another I think it's Oration twenty three

397
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of Saint Gregor now Sandras, where he says this exact

398
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same thing. So they're getting hung up on words, and

399
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they think that because primarily we use the term God

400
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to refer to the hypostasis of the Father, that somehow

401
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that makes the Son onto logically subordinate, when the irony

402
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is that it's actually Roman Catholics that subordinate the Holy

403
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Spirit through the Doctor of the Philioque, because they give

404
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a power to the Father and the Son that the

405
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Spirit lacks, so ironically, theirs is the position that is subordination.

406
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So hopefully that helps once again to clear up this

407
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:09,759
point that always comes up between Muslims and Roman Catholics.

408
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On I think between the Muslim and the Roman Catholic

409
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there's a similar mistake that's being made that they think

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that a word necessarily contains the ontological baggage that one

411
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context of that word has. So if God is ever

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used to refer to the entire triad, then God must

413
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always and forever be a reference to the common divine essence,

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And it's just simply not. In fact. In the Creed,

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we believe in one God, the Father. In other words,

416
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one God is picking out or referring to the person

417
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of the Father in the Creed, not to the essence.

418
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Even though the Son has the same essence as the Father,

419
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he does not have the same role as the Father.

420
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The Father in Cappadocian theology is the fount, the source,

421
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the cause, the ark, the one ark, the an ark.

422
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Those are all terms that Basil uses to pick out

423
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the hypostasis of the Father. He is the unoriginate one.

424
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Gregory Nazi Andrews calls the Son the original one, and

425
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by extension, the Spirit is also originate. Both have their

426
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origin in the person of the father's essence, not in

427
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the common essence, the father's essence. The son springs forth

428
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from the father's essence. That's very important. In Trinitarian theology,

429
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we do not begin to attribute generation and procession to

430
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the common essence, even though Aquinas does that, even though

431
00:25:46,559 --> 00:25:50,319
many Roman Catholics do that, that's actually false. Nicea. One

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is very clear that the Father generates a son according

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to his essence, and that means, as Jesus says, everything

434
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that he has he has from the Father, and by extension,

435
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obviously the spirit too. Everything the Spirit has he has

436
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,960
from the Father through the son. And that does not

437
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make the son a cause or a source of the

438
00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:23,200
spirits hypostasis or essence, merely because he proceeds through him.

439
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,720
In fact, that's what the tomos against John Beco's is about.

440
00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:29,559
So hopefully that helps clear things up. Ai angel I

441
00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:32,359
forgot about you. Thank you for being patient, Go ahead.

442
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Speaker 3: No problem.

443
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Speaker 4: Once again, incredible impression pulled out of nowhere from Jay

444
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Arsenal's Jay Dire's Arsenal of Impressions.

445
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Speaker 3: Jordan Maxwell, that's great.

446
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: Are you saying that there are no tarra doctyles over

447
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,000
Los Angeles?

448
00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 5: I was gonna ask you, I actually saw that before

449
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,799
I passed away, I saw a Tara doctyle flying over

450
00:27:01,079 --> 00:27:03,119
my house in Los Angeles.

451
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: Go ahead, I was.

452
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Speaker 4: Asking you to explain the Hypostasius or something. This is unnecessary.

453
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,480
I was raised Protestant, did a dispensationalism detox. Over the

454
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,440
past few years came to be a pretty comprehensive critic

455
00:27:21,519 --> 00:27:24,279
of that system. And now I'm an Orthodox choir and

456
00:27:24,319 --> 00:27:26,000
I just want to say thanks for everything you do.

457
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Speaker 3: So odd all question, how does sin work if.

458
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Speaker 4: We get the effects of sin, such as death, but

459
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,559
not a sin nature, like, how do we end up

460
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,960
being sinful? Like from what seems to be the very

461
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,279
outset if it's not in our nature because obviously it's

462
00:27:44,319 --> 00:27:46,920
not like in our dna, our genes. It's not a

463
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,720
spirit that passes through the umbilical cord or anything, right right, Yeah.

464
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: No, So the way we would say that the effects

465
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of Adam sin pass on to all of his descendants,

466
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but not the personal guilt. So for us, guilt or

467
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:08,119
sin is always a specific action, right. James says that desire,

468
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,160
when it is consented to it gives birth to sin.

469
00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:16,160
So the desires themselves, the passions themselves are not even sin.

470
00:28:17,079 --> 00:28:19,640
Sin is literally just the concession of the will or

471
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,480
the acquiescence of the will too, an action that's against

472
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,240
God's law or the tank commandments, the moral law, et cetera.

473
00:28:25,599 --> 00:28:27,960
That's what a sin is. And so what we get

474
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,680
from Adam is a nature that is out of whack.

475
00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:38,240
It is mortal, It is liable to fluctuation and failing

476
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,559
and deviation, but it's not itself evil. There's no such

477
00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:44,799
thing as an evil nature because everything that has nature,

478
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,119
or has being, or has existence is something that God created, right,

479
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,039
and when God created he said it is good. So

480
00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:52,599
there could never be such a thing as an evil

481
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,279
nature or an evil essence or evil being. And that's

482
00:28:56,279 --> 00:28:58,720
why evil is always a privation. And in this case,

483
00:28:59,359 --> 00:29:02,319
moral evil is an action of the will against the good.

484
00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:07,240
So that's in every case what evil is. Even your sin,

485
00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:11,119
you don't have Adam's sin in terms of guilt or

486
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,160
in terms of personal actual sin. You have the effects

487
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,640
of adam sin that by the time you become you

488
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,880
know of the age of consent or whatever you And

489
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,400
I don't mean that in the sexual sense. I mean

490
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,880
the age of consent in terms of when you become

491
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,519
a reasoning a person who's guilty of moral reasoning and

492
00:29:31,559 --> 00:29:33,960
then violating that moral reasoning. You know, it could be

493
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,000
different for different people.

494
00:29:36,319 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 3: Excellent when it comes up damaged.

495
00:29:39,599 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 4: So the damaged human nature, in tandem with the fallen

496
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,799
world around us, facilitate the conditions for us to choose

497
00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:50,640
to use our free will in a sinple way.

498
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,279
Speaker 1: But we also do have within us what Paul calls

499
00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:57,000
a law of sin. It's not literally a law of sin.

500
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,599
He's talking about our passions being out of whack, right,

501
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,759
And so, you know, take the desire for food. The

502
00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:09,480
desire for food is a blameless passion. There's nothing wrong

503
00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:11,920
with it. God put us, put that in us, and

504
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,960
even after the fall, it's a good thing, so that

505
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,880
we sustain our life, our body. But when I get

506
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,559
overly indulged and I commit the sin of gluttony, I'm

507
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:27,039
over indulging a passion that is itself good, But I'm

508
00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:30,160
because I'm fallen. I sometimes give in to the passions,

509
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,400
and thus the passions are innocence out of whack. Does

510
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:33,039
that make sense?

511
00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 3: Yeah?

512
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 4: And obviously this is an anthropological thing that has through

513
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,720
this Christology too, which is why I started looking so

514
00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:44,759
critically at the notion of sin nature and everything you

515
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:50,240
talk about referencing Saint Maximus is an amazing like system

516
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,960
of logic gets that reinforce, and in a way, I

517
00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:56,880
kind of think of it as a Rupert's drop. You know,

518
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,480
you can have this surface area around the end of

519
00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:01,960
it that is so impenetrable, but then if you go

520
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:04,880
back to the tail, the very tip end of it,

521
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,200
the core of it, and anything there is fragmented, the

522
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,319
whole thing shatters. So would you say Christ had the

523
00:31:13,359 --> 00:31:18,119
passions and he may have felt a like would he

524
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,519
have experienced the inward like.

525
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,039
Speaker 1: No, actually a great question. I'm glad you brought this

526
00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:27,720
up because it's ad Elascium. I think it's either twenty

527
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,880
three or twenty five. But if you have the Little

528
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,759
Blue Saint Vladimir's Seminary Book of Maximus, there's a really

529
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:36,559
important section in there on this question. And we believe

530
00:31:36,599 --> 00:31:40,880
that Jesus did not have the blameful passions, so he

531
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,680
did not contract anything to do with ancestral original sin

532
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,039
from Adam, because he's born of the Virgin and he's

533
00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:50,720
born in the Holy Spirit, so he's the new atom.

534
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,880
But he willfully took on the blame less passions and

535
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,680
mortality in order to save our human nature. So this

536
00:31:58,759 --> 00:32:00,960
is a great point in this why Maximus makes a

537
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,920
distinction between the blame full passions and the blameless passions.

538
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,160
So Christ had the latter and not the.

539
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,839
Speaker 3: Former blame less passions.

540
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,119
Speaker 1: Okay, So that would be like like Christ got tired,

541
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:19,319
Christ hungered, he got thirsty, He in the garden. In

542
00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:22,759
the garden, he desired not to die. Right, let this

543
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:25,160
cut pass from me, yet not my will, But I

544
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,559
will be done, say Maximus says. That is him submitting

545
00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:32,319
his natural desire to not die, which is a good

546
00:32:32,319 --> 00:32:36,480
and healthy thing. It's a blameless passion. But Jesus did

547
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,039
not have lust or gluttony or anything like that.

548
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: Okay.

549
00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 4: And then clarification on a similar thing, he assumed what

550
00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:49,519
he came to redeem on the cross. And so by

551
00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:53,200
assuming to blame less passions.

552
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,279
Speaker 3: How does that buy?

553
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,519
Speaker 4: And I still have learning to do in regards to

554
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,039
like how legalistic were No, if you're doing, great thing

555
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,599
on the cross occurred.

556
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: Right, this is those are great questions. I'll tell you

557
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,799
where to read about that too. Go ahead.

558
00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:11,359
Speaker 4: So how does dying on the cross with the blameless

559
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,519
passions paid vote, I guess pay the price, or maybe

560
00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:16,759
that's still a misconception I need to get out of

561
00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:20,880
my system. The courtroom transactional type view of.

562
00:33:20,839 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: It, Well, that's all right. So the courtroom transactional side

563
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,880
of it is just one side of it. By the way,

564
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,680
it's at the lassium twenty one. So if you have

565
00:33:27,759 --> 00:33:32,799
the Little Blue Saint Vladimir's book, I'll to get this.

566
00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:35,519
It's called on the Cosmic Mystery of Christ. And then

567
00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:43,880
if you go to page one O nine is called

568
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:50,000
Christ's uh, Christ's Conquest of the human Passions at the

569
00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:52,720
lassium twenty one if you had if you have added

570
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,680
the lastium, and you can also just look up a

571
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,880
paragraph twenty one. But so this whole chapter is about

572
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:03,799
Christ conquering the blameless passions, such as the desire for food,

573
00:34:04,279 --> 00:34:07,319
the desire for sleep, et cetera. Saint Cyril says that

574
00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:12,719
when Christ was resurrected, he transcended even the blameless passions,

575
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,719
and so the human nature that he assumed it didn't

576
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,400
even require food, it didn't require sleep, it didn't require

577
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,880
water anymore. But he willed to take on those things

578
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:26,480
in his incarnation to heal the totality of our nature.

579
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,079
So by partaking in his deified human nature, his perfected

580
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:34,599
and healed human nature, it becomes the medicine for our

581
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,400
fallen human nature. And that's in turn what deifies us.

582
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,280
So in regard to what's happening on the cross, if

583
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,719
you read John Damascus's book on the Orthodox Faith, Book three,

584
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,599
and it's the last four or five paragraphs, he does

585
00:34:48,599 --> 00:34:51,239
probably one of the best expositions of what exactly is

586
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,480
happening on the cross. And separate from that, I would

587
00:34:54,480 --> 00:35:01,599
get the Pomazansky book Orthodox Dogmatic Theology. And I thank

588
00:35:01,639 --> 00:35:04,800
you for your question, because in the Pomazanski book there's

589
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,239
the chapter I have two copies. Let me say, I

590
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,960
don't have a copy here, it's at the other place.

591
00:35:11,079 --> 00:35:14,440
But there's a chapter on the deacon so Tirrikos and

592
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,199
the controversy or the section of whole chapter. But it's

593
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:24,159
the controversy over what happened in the offering of Christ,

594
00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:31,079
and it will discuss this controversy. That's very good for

595
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,000
refuting kind of the prostant idea of PSA from the

596
00:35:35,079 --> 00:35:38,679
Orthodox perspective, and for us, the liturgy refutes it, not

597
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,679
just to the liturgy. The liturgy reflects what's in the scriptures,

598
00:35:41,679 --> 00:35:47,000
but it deals with the question of what's being offered

599
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,960
in the eucharistic offering. Is the offering of the person

600
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,159
of the Son to the Father, which would be kind

601
00:35:54,199 --> 00:35:58,199
of an Enselmian position and Selms of toonement theory, Or

602
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,360
is the person of the son offering the human nature

603
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,599
in a fully triadic way to the Father in the spirit.

604
00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:09,320
Of course, the answer is that it's the latter, the Son,

605
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,519
as the divine person of the Word, the second person

606
00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:17,480
in trinity, is offering the deified human nature to the

607
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,159
Father in the spirit. So it's a triadic action, and

608
00:36:20,199 --> 00:36:23,559
it is not just an action of one person to

609
00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:28,239
another in the Trinity, nor is it just the son

610
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,800
paying a debt to the Father, because this council, this

611
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,840
Byzantine sonnot also reaffirms that there's no creature that could

612
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,400
pay God. God owns the cattle on a thousand hills.

613
00:36:38,599 --> 00:36:42,239
How could a created thing pay off God? And that

614
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:50,079
right there destroys the whole psa Protestant imputational theory. The

615
00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:53,159
infinite God can't be paid off by a human nature,

616
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,119
so it is an action of love when the son

617
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,719
offers his humanity to the father in the spirit. Let's see,

618
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,320
we'll try to move on here, Layman.

619
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 3: Hey ajay was going on.

620
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,639
Speaker 6: First off, I just want to say that I've been

621
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:24,920
Orthodox for about two months so far. I started my

622
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,239
uh my inquiry process just over a year ago, and

623
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,440
you were one of the creators.

624
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 3: That actually helped me with that.

625
00:37:31,039 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: So first off, I just want to thank you for that.

626
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:36,639
Speaker 6: And then the second thing that I was going to

627
00:37:36,679 --> 00:37:41,920
ask is a question about apologetics in regards to the

628
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,800
Council of Florence. So from what I understand from like

629
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,440
reading into the Council, because I'm getting into sort of

630
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,519
like Catholic apologetics and trying to understand their position, is

631
00:37:55,599 --> 00:38:00,199
they like to utilize Saint Maximus. The confessors let t

632
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,719
Marinus as sort of like a oh, look, there's an

633
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,360
Eastern father that supports our view of the philioqua.

634
00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:11,119
Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, before we go any further, Maximus

635
00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:13,239
is not supporting their view of the filio. Okay, first

636
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,679
of all, because Maximus says, why don't we grant them

637
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,360
the bend for the doubt? Because they might mean economia

638
00:38:20,159 --> 00:38:22,599
As this doctrine gets formulated in the west of the

639
00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:25,800
Council of Lions. They dogmatically state, no, it does not

640
00:38:26,039 --> 00:38:29,400
mean economia. It actually means, as Augustine says, and on

641
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:34,280
the trinity, double eternal hypostatic procession and origin. So the

642
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,599
letter to Mourhinus really isn't even relevant anymore because the

643
00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:42,280
debate progresses after Maximus to be a dogmatized filioqui position.

644
00:38:43,039 --> 00:38:48,039
But in terms of Florence, if I recall, doesn't didn't

645
00:38:48,159 --> 00:38:50,239
the Latins at Florence not even want to use the

646
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:51,159
letter to Morhus.

647
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 6: So from what I've read, I came to figure out

648
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,159
that there were some Latin delegates.

649
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:01,639
Speaker 3: But there's a couple of names.

650
00:39:01,639 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 6: So the first one is Cardinal Julian Cicerini, and then

651
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,480
there is a theologian called John of Torquemada, and they

652
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:14,239
explicitly invoked Maximus Confessor's letter to sort of argue their position.

653
00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:18,159
And their position was that Maximus said that from the

654
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,719
that the Latins were not heretical if when they say

655
00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:25,760
from the sun they mean through the sun, which is

656
00:39:26,039 --> 00:39:28,000
what the Latins argued as proof that.

657
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 1: The Yeah, but that's not referring to double eternal hypostatic procession,

658
00:39:33,039 --> 00:39:36,639
which is what accounts of Lions and Florence define and

659
00:39:36,679 --> 00:39:39,159
that's why the Orthodox response to that argument is the

660
00:39:39,199 --> 00:39:41,920
tunmost against John Becos, because that's what the whole issue

661
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,000
is with Becos. Okay, have you read that yet?

662
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 4: No?

663
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 3: Actually, no.

664
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 6: What I was going to ask you was sort of like,

665
00:39:49,039 --> 00:39:52,519
if there were any sort of like apologetics books like

666
00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:55,239
Church Fathers that I can read up onto further support.

667
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,519
Speaker 1: Yes. So this is actually from the book that I

668
00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:04,280
highly recommend, Crisis and Byzantium by Papadoccus, And it's about

669
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:09,920
the the not just blacker name, but also the theology

670
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,519
of Gregory Cyprus. And there's a section in there that's

671
00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:15,840
called the Tomos. It's a famous document called the Tomos

672
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,559
against John Beco's. Becos was a Latinizer who wanted to

673
00:40:18,559 --> 00:40:23,440
make this argument, and the Byzantine response is to reject

674
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,760
it because it's not a question of whether you can

675
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,199
use the term through the sun. It's a question of

676
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,039
does lions do lions in Florence go beyond that and

677
00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:37,000
say that the son is also a co cause with

678
00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:39,480
the Father? And the answer is, of course yes. So

679
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,119
the Byzantine Church said, no, we reject this line of

680
00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:44,079
argument from John.

681
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,039
Speaker 3: Becos, Right, Yeah, I appreciate that.

682
00:40:48,079 --> 00:40:48,199
Speaker 2: Man.

683
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, I just wanted to sort of like get more

684
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,679
like clarification on that This.

685
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 1: Book right here is this book right here is highly

686
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,960
highly necessary for this debate crisis in Byzantium by Papadocus.

687
00:41:00,039 --> 00:41:02,880
It's a very important book. And this section that you

688
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,559
can read online un tilmost against John Becos, I'm pretty

689
00:41:05,559 --> 00:41:07,679
sure it's it's just a chapter from this book.

690
00:41:09,079 --> 00:41:10,159
Speaker 3: Okay. I appreciate that.

691
00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 6: The second thing I was gonna say is when they

692
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,480
when they say, oh, well, like most of the like

693
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,880
most of the Eastern bishops were, we're at Florence and

694
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,719
they signed it, and there was only one and that

695
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,639
was Saint Mark of Ephesus. Like they sort of use

696
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,719
that as like a majority, and.

697
00:41:29,159 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 1: That's there that it's not like so what it's first

698
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,639
of all, it's not all of them.

699
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, So let me just list this argument is from

700
00:41:38,559 --> 00:41:42,519
coming up lately. Oh you agreed with the Council of

701
00:41:42,559 --> 00:41:43,599
Florence and you're.

702
00:41:43,519 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 3: You're held to it. No, we're not, like that's your

703
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,719
mate up standard right, And I.

704
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,199
Speaker 2: Would say there's several necessary conditions.

705
00:41:53,199 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 3: There could be more, but.

706
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 2: First of all, it has to for a council would

707
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:02,920
be binding and infallible. It has to be true number one.

708
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:10,400
If it's false, it's not binding. Number two, the entire

709
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:16,039
Omanian has to be represented. And uh, and so there's

710
00:42:16,039 --> 00:42:18,079
a lot of robber councils in which it's not like,

711
00:42:18,159 --> 00:42:24,639
for example, the Council Herrera, which is the iconoclast. Number three,

712
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,159
the bishops have to universally agree because that's the calos.

713
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:36,559
So the representative of Alexandria was the same mark of Ephesus.

714
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,440
He didn't agree, so it's not universal. And number four

715
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,199
it has to be received by the church.

716
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,119
Speaker 3: And all those are at least So I don't understand

717
00:42:47,159 --> 00:42:49,000
whether like, well, it's.

718
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: Because theation no. Well, they think that the Orthodox perspective

719
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,039
is that we have five heads and the Roman Church

720
00:42:58,039 --> 00:43:00,000
has one head, and so four of the five heads

721
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:03,519
accept it, then it's true. Yeah. But if you notice

722
00:43:03,519 --> 00:43:07,039
in the debate with Ubian Voice of Reason, Voice of

723
00:43:07,079 --> 00:43:10,599
Reason admitted that the decision of a leegate isn't binding,

724
00:43:10,639 --> 00:43:14,920
It isn't equivalent to the actual bishop accepting it. So

725
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,920
if the league gates come back to their homes and

726
00:43:18,119 --> 00:43:21,800
the bishops reject it, that destroys the entire Florence argument.

727
00:43:22,519 --> 00:43:24,559
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, thanks to right.

728
00:43:24,639 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, So usually what I would say, like like I

729
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,440
would just ask if this is like a fine like

730
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,599
counter so like to counter that, I would just reference

731
00:43:31,679 --> 00:43:35,280
like Father don Ias was saying, like robber councils, like

732
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,119
in ecumenical history, where for example, like the Council of

733
00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:41,719
Ephicism four to forty nine, it had like episcopal signatures

734
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,960
and imperial backing, but it failed because ultimately the majority

735
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:47,960
in the authority doesn't determine.

736
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 3: Truth, like he was saying. So I just kind of

737
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:50,599
wanted to do this well.

738
00:43:50,639 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: But also there's a notion of reception theory in Orthodoxy

739
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,960
and in Catholicism, and like UBI always points out, like

740
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,960
the same ideas in Orthodoxy that just because this or

741
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,079
that bishop or patriarch or emperor accepts something doesn't mean

742
00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:07,280
that it's therefore true or binding. It has to be

743
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,239
received by the rest of the church. So, for example,

744
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,039
one reason that the Palamite Synods, even though they were

745
00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:17,480
local Byzantine synods, are quote authoritative for the Orthodox, is

746
00:44:17,519 --> 00:44:20,880
that they've been accepted throughout the entire canonical Orthodox world.

747
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,719
I'm not aware of any Orthodox churches that reject the

748
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,559
Palomite Synods. So you see how like the logic is

749
00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:31,639
the same, like if the Palomite Synods that happened, and

750
00:44:31,679 --> 00:44:35,480
like the rest of the Orthodox world rejected it. The

751
00:44:35,519 --> 00:44:39,239
same principle applies to Florence, like even if you had

752
00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:44,159
heretical patriarchs accepting it, like there's nothing about patriarch is

753
00:44:44,159 --> 00:44:48,719
a canonical title right that it arises there's there's five

754
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,199
of them, what by I don't know the six or

755
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,079
seven hundreds. I think it's this by this time of

756
00:44:55,119 --> 00:44:58,000
Gregory the Great Ish that from the time of Vigilius

757
00:44:58,039 --> 00:45:01,400
to Gregory the Great, Rome even eventually accepts that there's

758
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:06,519
five patriarchis. So it's an evolving canonical thing, and it's

759
00:45:06,559 --> 00:45:09,639
there's nothing about that that necessarily makes it true or

760
00:45:09,679 --> 00:45:12,960
false just because two or three or four or perhaps

761
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,039
if you could, you could argue even five of them.

762
00:45:15,159 --> 00:45:17,119
Now UBI might be of the position that five of

763
00:45:17,119 --> 00:45:21,159
them makes it binding. Maybe he has an argument that

764
00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:23,000
I'm not aware of. I think you could even debate

765
00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:26,599
that because the you know, there was there weren't five

766
00:45:26,639 --> 00:45:29,679
patriarchates at the time of Nicea, and yet Nicea is

767
00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:32,079
still binding. So you see what I'm saying. It's like

768
00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:36,480
it's just because something develops canonically, it doesn't somehow make

769
00:45:36,519 --> 00:45:39,559
it like the thing that tells you truth, like a

770
00:45:39,599 --> 00:45:40,320
papal position.

771
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,199
Speaker 3: All right, thanks you. Chris's reason.

772
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 1: Truly he is. I was looking for this astro my book.

773
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,000
There's a book that David pointed out a long time ago.

774
00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:56,400
I think I have it somewhere, but I don't see it.

775
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,599
Speaker 3: Huh, what's the name of the author.

776
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: I might have it Ostromov on Florence ost r u

777
00:46:05,079 --> 00:46:05,639
m Ov.

778
00:46:06,039 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 3: No, I have another book if he is on Byzantine.

779
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, that's a great point.

780
00:46:21,039 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 3: Why would.

781
00:46:23,519 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 2: Why would the number guarantee the truth shouldn't be the

782
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,159
other way around. The truth guarantees and it's manifests through

783
00:46:30,159 --> 00:46:30,519
the number.

784
00:46:30,599 --> 00:46:32,519
Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot of Roman collies they actually

785
00:46:32,599 --> 00:46:37,639
think that that we have five heads and they just

786
00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:42,480
have one. And so somehow I guess if there's three

787
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:46,800
or four out of the five. But again, like it

788
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,000
wasn't it was just the league gates and then when

789
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,079
they went when the leagueates went back, it was rejected.

790
00:46:51,159 --> 00:46:57,760
So there goes that argument. I think they just are

791
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,000
really desperate grasping it any kind of argument. You know

792
00:47:01,039 --> 00:47:07,320
what I mean, Luca? I know I have the Ostrom

793
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:22,480
book here somewhere. What's up, man, gotta U mute, Luca? Hey,

794
00:47:23,199 --> 00:47:24,360
what what's up?

795
00:47:27,519 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 4: Well?

796
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:33,199
Speaker 7: I I was just looking into, like like you know,

797
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,599
early Islam. I was looking into Muhammad, and I was

798
00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:42,280
also looking into Do you know about the Typing rebellion

799
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:42,840
in China?

800
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,079
Speaker 1: I don't.

801
00:47:45,599 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 7: Well, basically it was so there was this Protestant I

802
00:47:49,519 --> 00:47:57,199
think Reformed missionary went to China and the and the

803
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:06,239
evangelizing people can across the sky Hong Xu Huan or something.

804
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:14,840
And basically what happened is he this Chinese dude who

805
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,920
led the rebellion, he experienced visions and stuff before he

806
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:26,639
was converted to Christianity and or to Protestantism, and he

807
00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:31,320
basically I was thinking, this is like the perfect I

808
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,039
haven't really explained it enough. Basically what happened is he

809
00:48:34,079 --> 00:48:42,199
experienced insane visions supposedly, and and and he thought he

810
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:52,400
was like going to destroy all the he was he

811
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,639
was saying he was going to destroy all the demons

812
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,480
in China and stuff. So he thought he was like

813
00:48:58,079 --> 00:49:02,800
he also said that he was I can't just I

814
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,360
can't discuss this properly.

815
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:09,199
Speaker 3: He was saying.

816
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: He was, so, are you saying that, like he believed

817
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,679
that through these visions that he was ordained to like

818
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,840
convert China out of you know, paganism into Protestantism, and

819
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,880
that this would disprove like the Roman Catholic reliance on visions.

820
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And he had.

821
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 7: He had the visions before he even read any Christian stuff.

822
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,320
So so before he had even talked to any of

823
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:47,519
the missionaries, he he already had these visions. And then

824
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,159
he got a got a hold of like some of

825
00:49:51,159 --> 00:49:55,280
the Gospel and stuff like this, and he then thought

826
00:49:55,320 --> 00:50:00,280
he was like the mystical descendant of the Father and

827
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:04,599
all this insane stuff. And he led a rebellion in

828
00:50:04,639 --> 00:50:11,519
like the eighteen sixties, and he like the war killed

829
00:50:11,599 --> 00:50:15,400
like sixty million Chinese people. And this was like some

830
00:50:15,519 --> 00:50:21,119
American What was he the guy who evangelized him. He

831
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:27,599
was like some American. It was an American missionary of Protsantism.

832
00:50:27,599 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: But I forgot which, Okay, well, what's this guy's name

833
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:31,480
one more time, we'll look him up.

834
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 3: Hong Zu. I'll spell it out h o n g.

835
00:50:40,519 --> 00:50:43,679
Speaker 7: X i u q u a n.

836
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 4: Hong ju Quan.

837
00:50:51,159 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 3: It's it's insane.

838
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,039
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, well check that out. This is really cool. Yeah,

839
00:50:56,199 --> 00:51:02,039
I appreciate that. So heavenly king, Chinese revolutionary religious leader.

840
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,840
He was ordained. I guess he thought to be Okay, well,

841
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:12,079
he's actually crazy. In the visions, he saw himself as

842
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:15,960
the brother to Jesus Christ and that he would make

843
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:24,559
a confusion between Confucianism and Christianity. Interesting. So yeah, definitely

844
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:38,719
unfortunately a delusion. What's up, Alistair Gotta, I'm mute. By

845
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,079
the way, he's an iconic class too, which is interesting.

846
00:51:41,119 --> 00:51:43,760
It says Alie star. Do you want to immute or not?

847
00:51:54,119 --> 00:52:05,840
H what's up? Man? H got an? You bob you on?

848
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:06,039
Speaker 4: You?

849
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:09,599
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, can you hear me?

850
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:10,119
Speaker 1: Huh?

851
00:52:11,679 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 3: All right, Hey, you know I'm not here to debate.

852
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 8: I just had a question. I'm, you know, an orthodox Christian.

853
00:52:20,679 --> 00:52:24,880
I was I was running. I heard you talk about

854
00:52:25,079 --> 00:52:25,800
the book.

855
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,159
Speaker 3: Christianese and the rise of the Papacy.

856
00:52:29,599 --> 00:52:33,039
Speaker 1: M hm, so yeah, I was.

857
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 3: I was thinking about getting.

858
00:52:37,159 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 8: Getting at that whole series with the four from Saint

859
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:42,079
Vladimir's Are you like familiar with that?

860
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,079
Speaker 1: Yeah? I have three of them. I don't have all four.

861
00:52:45,159 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I was just one of you know, that's

862
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,559
a good, good like starter for church history.

863
00:52:50,559 --> 00:52:52,199
Speaker 3: It's part of my catechises.

864
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,039
Speaker 1: I read the Paradise and Utopia series.

865
00:52:55,079 --> 00:52:57,679
Speaker 8: But Father John strickl I don't know if you're familiar with.

866
00:52:57,639 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 3: That, I, you know, liked it.

867
00:53:00,599 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: I have not read that, but I think that it

868
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,320
would be a really probably the best in terms of

869
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,840
church history from the orthodox perspective of that series. So yeah,

870
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:10,800
I definitely think it's really good. I haven't read them all,

871
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:15,480
but I've read most of the Papa Dooccas Myandorf one,

872
00:53:16,159 --> 00:53:20,320
and then sections of the Andrew Louth one, so I

873
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:37,559
would recommend it. Adam, what's something man there? Adam eb

874
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,320
eb you know what I mean? Hello, Yes, sir.

875
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,199
Speaker 3: Was that Pastor Jay? That's crazy? Sorry, it just kind

876
00:53:50,199 --> 00:53:50,719
of shut off.

877
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 9: I'm in my car, so I'm not I don't have

878
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:56,880
too many.

879
00:53:57,239 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: I have a few questions.

880
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:07,599
Speaker 9: But something you said earlier, something about Protestants having zoom sorryfication.

881
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,519
Speaker 1: Somebody called in and said that they Yeah, I was

882
00:54:09,559 --> 00:54:11,920
just making a joke because somebody said they were invited

883
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,639
to a Protestant zoom prayer service, and we were just

884
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:15,559
kind of making a joke.

885
00:54:17,199 --> 00:54:17,760
Speaker 9: That's crazy.

886
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

887
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 9: I've seen videos of like people in VR chat having

888
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:26,559
like Bible study like with their like furry avatars and

889
00:54:26,599 --> 00:54:28,639
everything was crazy.

890
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,599
Speaker 1: I mean I think it's you know, like.

891
00:54:31,599 --> 00:54:35,519
Speaker 9: Like these videos have like seventeen views. It's crazy.

892
00:54:36,159 --> 00:54:39,280
Speaker 1: I mean, Father Deacon has morning prayers on his channel.

893
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,599
So the idea itself isn't necessarily bad. But like if

894
00:54:43,599 --> 00:54:46,320
you if you don't go church, go to church, and

895
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,320
you you know, are replacing you know, participating in the

896
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:55,519
sacraments with like furry VR church, then that's ridiculous.

897
00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, all right, So I had two questions. One on

898
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,639
geopolitics if that's fine topics, sure, all right, I'm not

899
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:08,760
I don't pay too much attention.

900
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,039
Speaker 3: The whole Ukraine Russia thing.

901
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:17,039
Speaker 9: I've heard rumors and everything about the Ukraine Church being

902
00:55:17,199 --> 00:55:20,840
not legitimate, and I've heard rumors.

903
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:25,679
Speaker 1: About that's correct Russian. Yeah, go watch my U my

904
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,599
interview with Father John Whiteford on it, and with my

905
00:55:29,639 --> 00:55:31,320
interviews with Jim Das on it.

906
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 9: All right, Yeah, it's but like what's the I guess

907
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,440
what's the take on the whole war in general?

908
00:55:40,679 --> 00:55:43,280
Speaker 3: Like both My take is both sides are bad. I

909
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,079
just I just don't know enough about it.

910
00:55:46,559 --> 00:55:49,079
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's unfortunate. I don't know that anybody,

911
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:52,239
no Christian, has to have a you know, good guy,

912
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,320
bad guy necessarily approach to it. I do think that

913
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:59,760
if you read something like William F. William Ingdahl's book

914
00:56:00,679 --> 00:56:04,719
Full Spectrum Dominance, you can see the Russian attitude and

915
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,519
why they were provoked for a long time by the West.

916
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:14,039
And you know, definitely NATO, definitely the CIA, the State Department.

917
00:56:14,079 --> 00:56:16,039
They want to divide the church. They want to go

918
00:56:16,119 --> 00:56:21,920
in and have a Bobo's, they want to have skittles.

919
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,840
So that's their motivation. So what does that tell you?

920
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,679
And tian z Heyed, what's up?

921
00:56:37,679 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 3: Hey?

922
00:56:38,039 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 1: Jay?

923
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 6: Yes, sir, all right, so do you understand you abandon

924
00:56:45,079 --> 00:56:48,280
a tradition that was here for sixteen centuries.

925
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:50,320
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about.

926
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 3: The calendar and you use a papal calendar.

927
00:56:55,599 --> 00:56:59,079
Speaker 1: So this guy again, so this is the guy who

928
00:56:59,159 --> 00:57:01,599
like just came into the church and now you're uh

929
00:57:02,599 --> 00:57:06,000
old calendar zella and just makes new profiles every time

930
00:57:06,039 --> 00:57:07,800
I do an open stream, even though we've already had

931
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:09,440
this conversation, Matthew, what's up man?

932
00:57:16,519 --> 00:57:17,199
Speaker 10: Can you hear me?

933
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:24,159
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm trying to think how to ask. Well, uh,

934
00:57:25,199 --> 00:57:25,519
I don't.

935
00:57:25,639 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 10: It was like a week ago or something and you

936
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,400
said there's no new divine revelation after.

937
00:57:33,159 --> 00:57:34,119
Speaker 3: The New Testament?

938
00:57:34,559 --> 00:57:40,039
Speaker 1: Is that what you said, well, after the death of John. Yeah, okay.

939
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 10: So, like I'm Orthodox, and I don't know the specific

940
00:57:45,119 --> 00:57:49,920
prophecies of Saint Paysios, but like I've read them offhand,

941
00:57:50,079 --> 00:57:57,440
and like they're about Turkey basically being re Christianized something

942
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,239
along those lines. So like, what is that considered, Like

943
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,039
is that new divine revelation or.

944
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,679
Speaker 1: Uh, well, what we mean by public divine revelation is

945
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,679
like anything that would be part of the Apostolic deposit, right,

946
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:16,440
Jude says in Jude three that's complete. So there is

947
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,519
no new Apostolic deposit, there's no new books of the Bible.

948
00:58:20,159 --> 00:58:24,000
Even the councils like niceea, they're not new public divine revelations.

949
00:58:24,119 --> 00:58:28,480
Their explications and statements as to what divine revelation teaches,

950
00:58:28,519 --> 00:58:31,480
they're not divine revelations in terms of literally the same thing.

951
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 10: Okay, And like I totally believe it because like I've

952
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,679
talked to people at monasteries who knew stuff about me

953
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:43,559
that I never told them.

954
00:58:43,559 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 3: So, like I firmly believe in I don't. I don't

955
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,480
even know what you would call that, but I.

956
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 2: Well, that's prepoinant, my spiritual father's plavoyant. That's not that's

957
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:02,519
not dogma, Like that's a different category. Like being able

958
00:59:02,519 --> 00:59:05,639
to have virtues and insights and discernment and stuff like

959
00:59:05,679 --> 00:59:10,320
that is not new revelation. Does that make sense?

960
00:59:10,599 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, new revelation would be Jude three Jude verse three. Obviously,

961
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,599
that's what I mean. It's people are getting my nerves.

962
00:59:18,639 --> 00:59:20,880
In the Chat, it says the faith was Once we're

963
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:25,159
all delivered, that means that it's complete. There doesn't need

964
00:59:25,199 --> 00:59:29,239
to be like Joseph Smith or Mohammed new prophets to

965
00:59:29,239 --> 00:59:31,960
give new divine revelations. You see. And by the way,

966
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:35,480
once once that's clear, that cuts out all the sects,

967
00:59:35,519 --> 00:59:41,440
all the charismatics, Ellen White, seven Day, Avidis, Joseph Smith, Mohammed,

968
00:59:41,679 --> 00:59:44,760
they're all done because they're all premised on the idea that,

969
00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:48,400
oh I need new revelations to fix and complement the

970
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,800
previous revelation. Well, if there is no new revelation, then

971
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,400
that's all done. Like you're already canceled out from the outset.

972
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,400
So that's the main point of that argument. And by

973
00:59:58,400 --> 00:59:59,880
the way, to the guy, I mean, does that guy

974
01:00:00,119 --> 01:00:02,599
realize that ro Corp is old calendar. He's like accusing

975
01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:06,880
me of abandoning the old calendar. Ro Corps is old calendar? Dude,

976
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,519
what are you talking about? This doesn't make any sense. So,

977
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:14,159
but no public divine revelation was complete with the death

978
01:00:14,159 --> 01:00:18,800
of the apostles. There's no new prophets, no new It's

979
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:20,760
like you could say, well, but what about an elder

980
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,360
who's prophetic. Okay, no elder who has the gift of

981
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:27,000
clair buoyant is gonna say I've written a letter, I

982
01:00:27,039 --> 01:00:31,119
have received divine revelation. Add this to the New Testament. Okay,

983
01:00:31,159 --> 01:00:37,519
we're not Montanists. Montanism was already condemned a long time ago. Roma,

984
01:00:37,559 --> 01:00:50,679
what's up man? Blank? Nobody you can call in or

985
01:00:50,719 --> 01:00:55,719
you can uh huh.

986
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,039
Speaker 11: A big fan of the channel. My wife and I

987
01:00:59,119 --> 01:01:01,000
were going to start our I this fall. I know

988
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,599
that's probably not good for you to hear, but I

989
01:01:03,599 --> 01:01:04,480
had some questions.

990
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 3: I was reading pastor returns.

991
01:01:07,039 --> 01:01:09,199
Speaker 11: And I've listened to you speak a couple of times

992
01:01:09,239 --> 01:01:15,039
about the universal and Ordinary magic Serrium and when the

993
01:01:15,239 --> 01:01:17,239
Pope invokes it and in sickle world and stuff.

994
01:01:17,239 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 3: So what is your view on when the pope and

995
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:21,440
how the Pope invokes.

996
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 11: The Universal ordinary Magisterium? According to Pastor Attornis, it's.

997
01:01:25,639 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: Not just Pastor Attornis. Pastor atturnist is just one or

998
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,880
two sections of Vatican one. And so I'm not trying

999
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:33,440
to be rude to you, but did you actually read

1000
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,480
Vatican one or just the sections from Pastor Atturnis.

1001
01:01:38,559 --> 01:01:42,639
Speaker 11: So I read Vatican one, I would say six months ago,

1002
01:01:43,039 --> 01:01:46,639
and then I just recently reread just Pastor Returners, So

1003
01:01:46,679 --> 01:01:49,000
I have not read that the actual entire text of

1004
01:01:49,039 --> 01:01:50,880
Vatican one in probably six months.

1005
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:52,119
Speaker 3: So you can if you want to give me a.

1006
01:01:52,039 --> 01:01:55,159
Speaker 1: Refresh, that's fine, And I'm not trying to that's fine,

1007
01:01:55,199 --> 01:01:57,119
and I'm not trying to trap you. It's just that

1008
01:01:58,039 --> 01:02:02,760
I don't even remember if what's on online in terms

1009
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:04,880
of Vatican One, I don't even remember if it includes

1010
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,039
the anathemas. It might not even have them on there.

1011
01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:10,800
I don't recall. Uh, But if you get the ten books.

1012
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,519
Speaker 3: There, so there is an English there is an English website.

1013
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:15,480
There is it. Sorry, Sorry to cut you off, J.

1014
01:02:16,039 --> 01:02:18,599
Speaker 11: There is an English website that does have the anathemas.

1015
01:02:18,679 --> 01:02:20,599
That's the one I read. I don't actually remember which

1016
01:02:20,599 --> 01:02:23,440
website it is, but I have read the anathemas before.

1017
01:02:23,519 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: Well, no, you can, okay, good. I just want to

1018
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,440
make sure that we have all the same things in mind,

1019
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:30,159
because I think at papal encyclicals dot net they have

1020
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:33,519
pretty much everything except the anathemas. No, wait, maybe it is.

1021
01:02:34,559 --> 01:02:36,800
I think it does have the anathemas. So here is

1022
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:40,920
one of the anathemas at least. But let's see so

1023
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,480
that so this one does. So papalincyclicals dot Net has

1024
01:02:43,519 --> 01:02:47,360
the totality of it. And if you control f search ordinary,

1025
01:02:47,559 --> 01:02:51,440
I believe it comes up twice. So if you look

1026
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,639
at Chapter three of Vatican One on Faith, it says

1027
01:02:57,079 --> 01:03:00,480
that wherefore, by divining Catholic faith, all those things are

1028
01:03:00,559 --> 01:03:02,280
to be believed which are containing the Word God in

1029
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,480
scripture and tradition, which are proposed by the Church as

1030
01:03:05,559 --> 01:03:09,440
matters to be believed divinely revealed, whether by solemn judgment

1031
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:12,840
that would be Extra Cathedral, or by the ordinary and

1032
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,840
Universal Magisterium. Right, So there's one statement of it in

1033
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,840
section three on faith. And to be clear, my understanding

1034
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:23,639
of what Roman Caolics mean when they say universal ordinary

1035
01:03:23,639 --> 01:03:27,880
magisterium is anything that the Church has always believed at

1036
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:31,119
all times and proposed for belief is part of the

1037
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:38,719
universal ordinary magistrum. So something like I don't know the

1038
01:03:38,719 --> 01:03:42,719
inspiration of scriptures right, there might not be a dogmatic

1039
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,360
statement on that until you could argue maybe Trent or

1040
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:50,159
the Sollabus of Errors or Lamentabiley, but it wouldn't matter

1041
01:03:50,239 --> 01:03:54,599
because if say a thirteenth century pope mentioned the inspiration

1042
01:03:54,679 --> 01:03:58,000
of scriptures, you could argue that is part of the

1043
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:03,400
ordinary universal magistrum, even if there's not a specific ex

1044
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,440
cathedral magisterial statement on it. Does that make sense?

1045
01:04:08,679 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 11: Yeah, that makes sense, so more so or not more so.

1046
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:14,760
But this is really was my question to you. I

1047
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,400
was listening to your debate with Eric Yubara from a

1048
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:21,199
couple of years ago, and specifically there's a specific part

1049
01:04:21,199 --> 01:04:28,639
where you mentioned a contradiction between uh wastate and Mortalitian animals.

1050
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:30,679
I think is the one you bring up a lot correct,

1051
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:35,920
and I my understanding of the way the pope invokes

1052
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:39,679
the universal ordinary Magisterium is obviously he can speak from

1053
01:04:39,719 --> 01:04:42,760
the chair in terms of the extraordinary magisterium, but with

1054
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:46,639
the universal and ordinary magisterium that applies when the pope

1055
01:04:46,719 --> 01:04:48,719
is reiterating and teaching that has.

1056
01:04:48,559 --> 01:04:51,719
Speaker 3: Been quote unquote you know, been known in every age.

1057
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: Yes, correct, and that's exactly what I was arguing. So

1058
01:04:54,119 --> 01:04:57,039
just I just want to say props to you for

1059
01:04:58,079 --> 01:05:01,840
correctly stating everything so far, because usually in a Romancolic

1060
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,079
discussion by this time it's already way off, but you've

1061
01:05:04,079 --> 01:05:05,039
gotten everything correct.

1062
01:05:05,079 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 3: So yes, well, so Jay, I don't want to take

1063
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:09,039
up too much.

1064
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:12,920
Speaker 1: Time you want, is I always welcome the civil papists,

1065
01:05:13,039 --> 01:05:14,199
Please take all the time you want.

1066
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,599
Speaker 11: So, I when I first started really getting serious about

1067
01:05:18,639 --> 01:05:22,119
my Christian faith, I was very interested in Orthodoxy. I

1068
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:26,559
was messaging a I believe it was actually a I

1069
01:05:26,599 --> 01:05:30,559
was an Arabic speaking Orthodox church near me, and I

1070
01:05:30,559 --> 01:05:33,360
couldn't work up the courage to go to liturgy because

1071
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,000
I was only like sixteen and I didn't know anyone there.

1072
01:05:36,599 --> 01:05:40,480
So then I started researching Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and probably

1073
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:42,800
in the last year or so, I've come around to

1074
01:05:43,119 --> 01:05:45,800
Catholic positions on things, and I still really enjoy listening

1075
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:51,599
to people like you, several other good Orthodox apologists or priests,

1076
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:56,280
and I really, honestly, I think your conversation with ERICI Bara,

1077
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,360
although it got tense at times, I really enjoyed it

1078
01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:01,159
and the other You've made me think about a lot

1079
01:06:01,199 --> 01:06:02,159
that I wanted you to ask.

1080
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,440
Speaker 3: And then I wanted to ask you a question on

1081
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:06,719
was epistemology.

1082
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,199
Speaker 11: Because I know you talk a lot about how classical

1083
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,400
foundationalism has holes, you know, that sort of Tomistic way

1084
01:06:12,719 --> 01:06:17,239
of looking at knowledge. So how does this work in

1085
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:21,039
regards to how scripture confirms the authority of the Church,

1086
01:06:21,079 --> 01:06:23,400
because this is something that I've been thinking about from

1087
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:25,679
a classical foundationalist perspective.

1088
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: Well, let me stop. Let me say, because I'm not

1089
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,119
opposed to answering the epistemic question, but how do we

1090
01:06:31,159 --> 01:06:34,760
go from universal ordinary magisterium and mortality animals and now

1091
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:36,400
where you want to go to this? I thought we

1092
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:37,079
were going to talk about that.

1093
01:06:37,159 --> 01:06:41,079
Speaker 11: Oh yeah, oh sorry, I I mores just wanted your view.

1094
01:06:41,199 --> 01:06:45,360
I wanted to correctly understand the Orthodox view on what

1095
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:48,760
on how you look at these contradictions, right, because a

1096
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:52,360
lot of Roman Catholics will say, well that's not magisty

1097
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:54,079
or will that's not infallible.

1098
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, So let's I've got Mortalian Animos

1099
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:04,559
pulled up, and he's that I'm going to quote section eight.

1100
01:07:05,559 --> 01:07:08,719
Thus be this being so, it is clear the Apostolic

1101
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,280
See cannot in any terms take part of the assemblies

1102
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:14,960
of non Catholics, nor is it in any way lawful

1103
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:18,960
for Catholics to support the work for such enterprises. If

1104
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,880
they do, they give countenance to a false Christianity alien

1105
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:25,480
to the Church of Christ. And then he goes on

1106
01:07:25,519 --> 01:07:28,440
to say that it's basically a denial of the teaching

1107
01:07:28,519 --> 01:07:30,559
of the Holy Spirit, and then it's a surrendering of

1108
01:07:30,599 --> 01:07:33,360
the Gospel et cetera, et cetera, and Mortalian animos. So

1109
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:36,480
in nineteen twenty eight, how could it be contrary to

1110
01:07:36,519 --> 01:07:38,199
the teaching of the Gospel? And I would argue that

1111
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:41,880
it's pretty clear that from the beginning, let's say that

1112
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:45,400
the church is historically Roman Catholic, Okay, from the time

1113
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:49,400
of Peter all the way up to Mortalian Animos in

1114
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:53,079
nineteen twenty eight, is it not the universal teaching of

1115
01:07:53,119 --> 01:07:57,440
the Roman See that you cannot participate in interfaith gatherings

1116
01:07:57,519 --> 01:07:59,000
much less with other religions.

1117
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:04,360
Speaker 11: I would say from my reading of pretty much everything

1118
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:04,920
that that.

1119
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 3: Would be my interpretation.

1120
01:08:06,039 --> 01:08:09,679
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, I agree, and that would fulfill what Vatican

1121
01:08:09,719 --> 01:08:16,159
one says on section three here on faith meeting the

1122
01:08:16,319 --> 01:08:19,079
universal ordinary judgment of the Church.

1123
01:08:19,199 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 11: Right again, I mean, I think you'd probably have to

1124
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:27,720
be right on that one in regards to mortality and animals,

1125
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:30,479
just because it is a teaching that has been reiterated.

1126
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:33,399
I mean, you can find the teaching in our earliest

1127
01:08:34,159 --> 01:08:36,640
fathers on it, you know, both East and West. So yeah,

1128
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:37,640
I'd have to agree with you on.

1129
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:39,640
Speaker 1: That one, okay. And on top of that, before we

1130
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,520
get to your epistemic question really really quick, I want

1131
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:47,399
to make a point that do you not think that

1132
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:51,680
the other point about the temporal supremacy, the Roman bishop

1133
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:54,920
being necessary for salvation and a dictatas poppy and when

1134
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:57,359
I'm signing to them and that no longer being held,

1135
01:08:57,399 --> 01:08:59,560
is that not a system level I just understand how

1136
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:01,359
it's not these system level defeaters.

1137
01:09:03,159 --> 01:09:05,159
Speaker 11: So, and this is one of the things that I

1138
01:09:05,239 --> 01:09:07,079
kind of wanted to talk to someone like you because

1139
01:09:07,079 --> 01:09:10,720
you're very well read. You definitely have read these things

1140
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:14,119
more than I have. I just recently read Unham Song them,

1141
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:19,399
so I guess my view of it is is I

1142
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:24,119
see the claimed contradictions, right, you know where the modern

1143
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:29,880
Catholic Magisterium no longer promulgates things that seem to have

1144
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:33,039
been declared as as unchangeable dogamas like if you.

1145
01:09:33,079 --> 01:09:34,399
Speaker 3: When I read Unham Song Them for.

1146
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 11: The first time, I was like, I was confused, because

1147
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:40,239
this doesn't seem to be in line with the you know,

1148
01:09:40,319 --> 01:09:43,159
the view of the Magisterium in the modern day, especially in.

1149
01:09:43,199 --> 01:09:48,840
Speaker 1: My and yeah, so, but not just you realize that

1150
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:52,439
as late as the Syllabus of Errors, the teaching of

1151
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:56,159
when I'm sung them on the temporal supremacy of the

1152
01:09:56,239 --> 01:10:02,479
Roman bishop is held up. Have you have you read.

1153
01:10:04,279 --> 01:10:06,319
Speaker 3: I'm not in its entirety, I'll be honest.

1154
01:10:06,199 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 1: You should read that. It's not very long, and it's

1155
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:11,319
not very very long, and and the sybs of Errors

1156
01:10:11,399 --> 01:10:12,680
is attached to Vatican one.

1157
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, I was trying to remember. I think I've just

1158
01:10:17,079 --> 01:10:19,319
read like sections people have pasted. I don't think I've

1159
01:10:19,319 --> 01:10:23,159
actually ever gone on the document. But but no, Honestly,

1160
01:10:23,399 --> 01:10:26,279
my my position right now, as I said, my wife

1161
01:10:26,319 --> 01:10:26,680
and I.

1162
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 3: We haven't started our c A.

1163
01:10:28,359 --> 01:10:31,680
Speaker 11: I'm kind of doing my due diligence listening to people

1164
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:36,039
like you and really going through the the proposed contradictions.

1165
01:10:36,319 --> 01:10:39,159
So when you say it's a system level defeat, level defeater,

1166
01:10:40,279 --> 01:10:42,399
I'll just I'll just grant that it might be because

1167
01:10:42,399 --> 01:10:45,319
I haven't looked into it enough, you know, because there's

1168
01:10:45,319 --> 01:10:47,920
all sorts of claims on these contradictions. People will say that, oh,

1169
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:50,800
Vatican two is not really dogmatic, which I don't agree

1170
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:54,560
with that whatsoever. Or people will say that we're Talian animals,

1171
01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:57,680
isn't dogmatic, or they'll say, you know, these contradictions, but.

1172
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:01,079
Speaker 1: You understand that, but you understand hold on, hold on,

1173
01:11:01,199 --> 01:11:04,079
because even this whole discussion of as whether it's quote

1174
01:11:04,119 --> 01:11:07,880
dogmatic or not, is really ultimately a deflection because even

1175
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:12,439
if it's not dogmatic, it's ordinary teaching. And Canon seven

1176
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:16,920
fifty of your canon Law says that laity are bound

1177
01:11:17,119 --> 01:11:22,479
to accept the normative ordinary teaching even if it's fallible

1178
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,439
with docility. That's Canon's seven.

1179
01:11:25,319 --> 01:11:29,319
Speaker 3: Fifty submission of yeah, submission of mind and will.

1180
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:32,119
Speaker 1: So you have to accept the ordinary teaching even if

1181
01:11:32,119 --> 01:11:35,960
it's fallible with docility, which means that you don't get

1182
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:40,119
to just say yeah, maybe the modern paper. Because I

1183
01:11:40,159 --> 01:11:43,119
tried this when I was a trat, I would say, yeah, okay,

1184
01:11:43,159 --> 01:11:47,640
maybe you know John Paul and Benedict and you know Francis.

1185
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:52,079
Maybe they've rejected the teaching of the silvis of errors,

1186
01:11:52,079 --> 01:11:54,600
which is consistent with what was taught all the way

1187
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:58,000
back to Uenum sanctum about the temporal supremacy. Maybe they

1188
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:01,600
don't teach it anymore. But I don't believe I think

1189
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:06,600
they're wrong. Well, I don't get the liberty of saying

1190
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:11,439
publicly that they're wrong when Canon seven fifty says, even

1191
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:15,760
if it's not dogmatic, I must submit to it with docility.

1192
01:12:16,359 --> 01:12:19,000
Speaker 11: Correct, You don't have the right to dissent from magisterium

1193
01:12:19,039 --> 01:12:19,680
in those matters.

1194
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:21,840
Speaker 1: Well a minute. If you say I don't know, but

1195
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:23,399
that's admitting that it's magisterial.

1196
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:28,159
Speaker 11: Well no, When I I guess what I was getting at,

1197
01:12:28,199 --> 01:12:29,479
Jay sorted if.

1198
01:12:29,399 --> 01:12:31,520
Speaker 1: I'm not, But you just said, you just said you

1199
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:33,840
don't get the descent from the magisterium in that matter.

1200
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:36,479
That would mean that the syllabus of errors and when

1201
01:12:36,479 --> 01:12:38,279
I'm saying to them are magisterial.

1202
01:12:40,079 --> 01:12:43,279
Speaker 11: Uh, aren't they? I mean I don't know if that

1203
01:12:43,319 --> 01:12:44,199
would be disputed, but.

1204
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:47,119
Speaker 1: You were saying that a minute ago. Many Catholics argue

1205
01:12:47,159 --> 01:12:49,720
that they're not magisterial and not binding and not authoritative.

1206
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 11: Yes, many Catholics do, so I guess, Jay, what I'm

1207
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:57,279
getting at is, I don't know the I haven't looked

1208
01:12:57,319 --> 01:12:59,960
into all these sort of I guess responses to contra

1209
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:01,119
fictions that you bring up.

1210
01:13:02,359 --> 01:13:04,239
Speaker 3: I've heard some of them, some of them.

1211
01:13:04,239 --> 01:13:06,560
Speaker 11: I'm convinced that some of them I think are more

1212
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:09,119
convincing than others. I am more so, just wanted to

1213
01:13:09,159 --> 01:13:11,560
ask you this specific question about your view of the

1214
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:15,680
universal Ordinary Magisterium to get a better grasp of when,

1215
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:19,079
especially Orthodox people, especially in your sphere. You know, like

1216
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:22,199
UBI has brought up some of this stuff from some videos.

1217
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:24,199
Speaker 3: Those guys Mario and.

1218
01:13:24,159 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 11: Luigi have brought up some of that stuff, and I

1219
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:28,920
think a lot of them take their cues on how

1220
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:31,439
they view the papal magisterium from you.

1221
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 3: So I really just wanted to.

1222
01:13:33,720 --> 01:13:37,520
Speaker 1: I'm happy to clarify my understanding is I thought you agreed, right,

1223
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:42,239
is that anytime anyone in the bishopric, in terms of

1224
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:45,600
the bishops and a synod in the Romancllolic Church or

1225
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:49,039
the Pope himself when they speak not directly in an

1226
01:13:49,039 --> 01:13:53,920
ex cathedral way, it can still be universal, ordinary magestarium

1227
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:56,640
when it is the teaching of the church perennially.

1228
01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:01,760
Speaker 11: Yes, yes, okay, perfect that is That is the clarifying

1229
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:02,720
question I wanted to ask.

1230
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:03,640
Speaker 3: That makes it.

1231
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:05,600
Speaker 11: Because I feel like a lot of a lot of

1232
01:14:06,399 --> 01:14:08,319
a lot of people on both sides want to say, well,

1233
01:14:08,319 --> 01:14:10,159
if it's not ex cathedra, it doesn't count.

1234
01:14:10,199 --> 01:14:13,439
Speaker 3: Well, especially does not count.

1235
01:14:14,319 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 1: That's why you're hammering that. That's hoos.

1236
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

1237
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:20,880
Speaker 11: And I think you have a better grasp on what

1238
01:14:21,039 --> 01:14:25,600
is magisterial than most Catholics do one hundred and fifty percent.

1239
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:28,319
Speaker 3: So I really appreciate you answering that question. Would you mind?

1240
01:14:29,159 --> 01:14:30,640
Can I ask the epistemic question?

1241
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 7: Yes?

1242
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:31,199
Speaker 1: Sure?

1243
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:36,640
Speaker 11: Uh So basically the question is, you know how against

1244
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:40,720
Protestants in sort of anti Protestant polemics will bring up, oh,

1245
01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:44,000
how do you know you have the canon? And uh

1246
01:14:44,039 --> 01:14:46,760
there's a great channel called intellectual Catholicism that brings up

1247
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:50,439
the Protestant cannon problem. And I I was looking at

1248
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:53,720
kind of from my classical foundation as perspective and if

1249
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:57,079
you have the cannon. Let's say the scriptures, and the

1250
01:14:57,119 --> 01:15:00,319
scriptures give explicit authority to the church. Body, you know,

1251
01:15:00,359 --> 01:15:04,680
we would agree on that as apostolic churches, that the

1252
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:08,760
scriptures explicitly give authority to the Church.

1253
01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:10,840
Speaker 1: I don't hold on. I don't think that makes sense.

1254
01:15:11,279 --> 01:15:14,319
The scriptures are a product of the Church. They don't

1255
01:15:14,399 --> 01:15:16,520
give to the church authority. I don't know what that.

1256
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:18,680
Speaker 3: Means one hundred one hundred percent.

1257
01:15:18,720 --> 01:15:21,279
Speaker 11: I more so am saying you can see this the

1258
01:15:21,319 --> 01:15:26,399
recognition of the Church's authority in the scriptures.

1259
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you.

1260
01:15:29,159 --> 01:15:31,680
Speaker 11: Uh so you see the recognition of the church authority

1261
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:36,039
in the scriptures themselves. So both the actual authority of

1262
01:15:36,079 --> 01:15:39,079
both the Church and the scriptures is from God. The

1263
01:15:39,079 --> 01:15:42,199
reason why they have authority is because they're from God.

1264
01:15:42,279 --> 01:15:43,319
Speaker 1: Sure, so.

1265
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:48,399
Speaker 3: In I guess what I was looking at is that

1266
01:15:48,439 --> 01:15:51,800
it almost seems like a sort.

1267
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:55,880
Speaker 11: Of spiral like you talk about with your epistemology, where

1268
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:59,439
that classical foundationism doesn't have a good answer, does can't

1269
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:03,239
deal with right, because the churches confirm the scriptures, they

1270
01:16:03,239 --> 01:16:06,399
confirm the cannon of the scriptures, they confirm the inspiration

1271
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:09,520
of the scriptures from God. And in turn, the scriptures

1272
01:16:10,119 --> 01:16:14,439
confirm the authority of the Church, and the church is

1273
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:18,399
leading on by God. And I was thinking about that,

1274
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:18,600
and I.

1275
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:23,079
Speaker 1: Know there's a symbiotic kind of a recursive relationship between

1276
01:16:23,079 --> 01:16:23,399
these two.

1277
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:28,119
Speaker 11: Yes, And it doesn't seem I is that a problem

1278
01:16:28,119 --> 01:16:30,359
for classical foundationalism, like the way I have it in

1279
01:16:30,399 --> 01:16:30,720
my head?

1280
01:16:31,119 --> 01:16:31,359
Speaker 9: Well?

1281
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So for example, if a Roman I'm in a

1282
01:16:34,039 --> 01:16:36,079
video many years ago where I was pointing out the

1283
01:16:36,079 --> 01:16:39,560
circularity of the papacy, where the papal position can say,

1284
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:43,039
for example, well we know the papacy because can you

1285
01:16:43,119 --> 01:16:46,800
mute when it's really a loud about groundings. The papacy

1286
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:50,079
is proven because Matthew sixteen is about the papacy. Well,

1287
01:16:50,119 --> 01:16:51,640
how do we know what the scriptures are? Well, the

1288
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:55,840
pope determines the scriptures. That's in my argument that I

1289
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:58,199
made in that video years ago. That's a circular self

1290
01:16:58,279 --> 01:17:02,880
referencing authority. But papism does not. Typically, I don't know

1291
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:05,359
any papists that believe in epistemic hoolism and that are

1292
01:17:05,359 --> 01:17:11,800
not foundationalists. I mean, you have Attorney Patras, which affirms

1293
01:17:12,079 --> 01:17:15,079
Tomism as the official philosophy of the Romancllolic Church, which

1294
01:17:15,119 --> 01:17:18,920
is one percent foundationalist. So I don't under I've never

1295
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:21,159
heard of a Roman Callaic who believes in some sort

1296
01:17:21,199 --> 01:17:25,319
of epistemic holism or recursive positions. Maybe there is one,

1297
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:27,920
but for all the Papists that I know and have

1298
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:29,920
heard of and have interacted with and debated and read,

1299
01:17:30,319 --> 01:17:33,840
they are foundationalists, and the papal position is essentially foundationalist.

1300
01:17:34,199 --> 01:17:37,239
And so there would not be any in my view,

1301
01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:44,000
sensible position in Roman Catholicism that is circular that isn't

1302
01:17:44,039 --> 01:17:48,800
a fallacy on their own epistemological grounds. So if the

1303
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:52,399
papacy confirms the papacy through Matthew sixteen, which is about

1304
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:55,560
the papacy, because the papacy chose what books go into

1305
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:56,840
the Bible, and that's how we know the Bibles. For

1306
01:17:56,960 --> 01:17:59,960
the papacy, it's like the ultimate reference point in circular

1307
01:18:00,079 --> 01:18:05,039
position is the the papsy itself, and that doesn't make

1308
01:18:05,119 --> 01:18:10,600
sense in a system which rejects recursive argumentation or quote

1309
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:11,720
circular argumentation.

1310
01:18:14,359 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent, that was that was my view

1311
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:19,680
of it as well. I don't I think.

1312
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 11: There is answers to it from like a tomistic or

1313
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:24,359
a foundation less perspective, But well.

1314
01:18:24,279 --> 01:18:26,319
Speaker 1: What would be the answer that isn't what would be

1315
01:18:26,359 --> 01:18:31,479
the answer that isn't self referencing or denying self evidence.

1316
01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:37,239
Speaker 11: I would say with the papacy question you raised, I

1317
01:18:37,279 --> 01:18:40,079
would have to think more about that question. In particular,

1318
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:43,199
with the cannon question. I think you can there's a

1319
01:18:43,239 --> 01:18:46,800
little bit, you know, I take more of a I guess,

1320
01:18:47,039 --> 01:18:48,720
I don't know if you'd call it an inductive or

1321
01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:54,960
a probabilistic perspective to the truth of the truth of

1322
01:18:55,039 --> 01:18:55,960
Christianity and more.

1323
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:57,840
Speaker 3: Specifically the truth of Catholicism.

1324
01:18:58,239 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 11: So I take kind of an induct the route of Okay,

1325
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:04,640
there's these there's these evidences, you know, which includes miracles

1326
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:06,199
and includes historical evidences.

1327
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:09,199
Speaker 3: It includes you know, all the classes.

1328
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:11,039
Speaker 1: All of those bad I mean, all those bad arguments

1329
01:19:11,039 --> 01:19:12,680
that we've addressed a million times.

1330
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:16,800
Speaker 11: Oh yeah, no, I'm not saying, don't get me wrong,

1331
01:19:16,840 --> 01:19:19,159
a lot of these things like I watched your video

1332
01:19:19,439 --> 01:19:21,239
on how miracles do not prove?

1333
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:22,520
Speaker 1: Are you the guy that I was?

1334
01:19:25,079 --> 01:19:25,279
Speaker 5: Oh?

1335
01:19:25,359 --> 01:19:26,239
Speaker 3: No, sir, no, sir.

1336
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:29,159
Speaker 11: This is my first college I tried to get in

1337
01:19:29,199 --> 01:19:30,359
on the very end of the one.

1338
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:33,520
Speaker 3: I think it was yesterday and that's why.

1339
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:35,800
Speaker 1: Well, look, I'm not trying to be rude on me

1340
01:19:35,880 --> 01:19:37,439
to cut you off, but I think you and Ice

1341
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:40,399
conversation will go very long, and that's good. I welcome that,

1342
01:19:41,199 --> 01:19:42,560
but I am going to have to end it pretty

1343
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:45,239
soon because my wife and I have already scheduled a

1344
01:19:45,279 --> 01:19:48,039
stream that we're about to do. So Roma, I want

1345
01:19:48,039 --> 01:19:49,880
you to call back in for sure next time you

1346
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:52,479
have time, and we do these streams all the time.

1347
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:54,680
I want to say thank you to Father Deacon and NS.

1348
01:19:55,039 --> 01:19:57,880
Go to his channel, go support his work by getting

1349
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:02,720
access to his courses. And for those that are curious,

1350
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:05,199
what I just referenced was Lee of the thirteenth in

1351
01:20:05,279 --> 01:20:10,199
cyclical about Thomas Aquinas and Tomism being the official philosophy

1352
01:20:10,199 --> 01:20:13,199
of the Roman Cally Church. It's called Attorney Patras by

1353
01:20:13,279 --> 01:20:16,520
Leo the thirteenth, Not to be confused with Pastor E.

1354
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:21,760
Turnus about Vatican one. So that's a separate document. But

1355
01:20:22,039 --> 01:20:25,239
here is Lee of the thirteenths in cyclical saying that

1356
01:20:25,399 --> 01:20:28,119
Tomism is the official philosophy. I'm well aware that that

1357
01:20:28,159 --> 01:20:32,000
doesn't mean that you can't have within Catholicism different schools.

1358
01:20:32,039 --> 01:20:34,680
I know there's Scotis. I know that there's different I

1359
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:37,279
know that. I'm just saying that, according to Leo, the

1360
01:20:37,319 --> 01:20:40,880
official quote philosophy is Tomism, and that to me would

1361
01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:43,760
be a pretty good indicator that for the most part,

1362
01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:47,439
ninety nine percent of the time, even with Scotism right,

1363
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:50,520
Scotis is still like an evidentialist and still a classical

1364
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:55,159
foundationalist in terms of how he would cash out his epistemology.

1365
01:20:55,199 --> 01:20:57,479
I'm aware that he existed before the time of what's

1366
01:20:57,520 --> 01:21:03,520
called quote foundationalism. That's a post contient, post Enlightenment receiving

1367
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:07,319
up post Daycarte Enlightenment development in terms of epistemology. I'm

1368
01:21:07,399 --> 01:21:10,880
well aware of that. But we can still say that

1369
01:21:11,039 --> 01:21:15,479
the basic attitude that somebody like Aristotle has or somebody

1370
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,920
like Aquinas has is a form of foundationalism. I don't

1371
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:22,840
think that's very controversial. I mean, both of them believe

1372
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:26,399
in the self evident axioms, et cetera. So that's usually

1373
01:21:26,439 --> 01:21:30,319
what I'm critiquing, and that doesn't mean that we disagree

1374
01:21:30,359 --> 01:21:32,319
with evidences. I got to read these super chats, and

1375
01:21:32,359 --> 01:21:33,640
I want to remind you guys too, to head on

1376
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:36,720
over to the supporter of the show which is the

1377
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:39,520
Great Chalk dot Com. Use the promo cod jyfo is

1378
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:42,039
already got forty percent off all these great chalk products,

1379
01:21:42,079 --> 01:21:45,560
including the performance stack that has to do with working out.

1380
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,960
This is not a p pee pill, Father Deacon, thank

1381
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:49,920
you for joining us today.

1382
01:21:50,159 --> 01:21:51,119
Speaker 3: Hey, thanks for having me.

1383
01:21:51,159 --> 01:21:54,199
Speaker 2: I got to head out to bless all of you guys.

1384
01:21:54,079 --> 01:21:58,359
Has risen and great great topics and great people coming

1385
01:21:58,399 --> 01:21:58,880
on today.

1386
01:21:59,319 --> 01:22:01,239
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, we had. We had a lot of really

1387
01:22:01,239 --> 01:22:04,039
good chests today, no weirdos or crazy people, which is

1388
01:22:04,079 --> 01:22:06,399
a good one. Just like the other day, we had

1389
01:22:06,399 --> 01:22:10,399
a very civil Roman Catholic discussion day. Everybody they called

1390
01:22:10,439 --> 01:22:15,279
in was super cool, so that's always much more flexible

1391
01:22:15,319 --> 01:22:19,640
and acceptable when everybody's being cool. Jamie and I, however,

1392
01:22:20,119 --> 01:22:21,840
remember you used from a co jf is aread get

1393
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:23,680
forty percent off of your great chalk products right there

1394
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:26,560
at chalk dot com c hoq dot com. The link

1395
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:28,399
is in the show description. You can also pre order

1396
01:22:28,439 --> 01:22:31,920
my book. You can also order my philosophy course, twelve

1397
01:22:32,039 --> 01:22:34,359
lectures on the totality of the history of Western philosophy,

1398
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:38,720
packed into very concise two to three hour lectures for

1399
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:42,199
each of those including Father Deaconductor Annis for a pistemology

1400
01:22:42,399 --> 01:22:45,520
and including Father Vladimir on aesthetics. You can get that

1401
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:48,680
philosophy course. In the show description, hush Tone says, when

1402
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:51,760
I was into psychedelics, I talked to entities. I was

1403
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:55,760
perceiving that I was always perceiving. They told me that

1404
01:22:55,880 --> 01:22:59,359
I was super smart and I had secret knowledge exactly. Yeah,

1405
01:22:59,359 --> 01:23:01,880
they always want to puff you up. And he said,

1406
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:03,560
I think these were deemons. I agree with you, hush

1407
01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:09,079
Tongue quantum yakub. Would C. S lewis concept of the

1408
01:23:09,199 --> 01:23:14,039
dow be a perennialist one? I don't actually know, really

1409
01:23:14,079 --> 01:23:16,359
good question. I'd have to read more on what C.

1410
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:19,399
S Lewis thought about the dow. I'm not sure, but

1411
01:23:19,479 --> 01:23:21,960
I think everybody usually points to Christ the eternal Dow

1412
01:23:22,199 --> 01:23:24,720
to see, you know, the similarities from the Orthodox view

1413
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:27,439
taint nothing. Ten dollars? Do you think Orientals are good

1414
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:32,039
evidence against Catholicism since the arguments by both sides or

1415
01:23:32,079 --> 01:23:35,640
absent Vatican ones idea of Roman supremacy and infallibility. I

1416
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:38,319
think it is an interesting point you can go to.

1417
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:42,199
It's like a supporting argument. I don't think that it's

1418
01:23:42,239 --> 01:23:44,479
going to be very convincing the many Roman Catholics, though,

1419
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:46,319
But I do think you're right. Tain't nothing that. Yeah,

1420
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:53,479
ultimately that is a pretty good a dindum argument. Zellmoxists

1421
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:55,880
three month member. What's up? He says, is it a

1422
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:59,159
coincidence that this was the year of love and that

1423
01:23:59,199 --> 01:24:01,560
was Jay's resolute and then he gets on these big podcasts.

1424
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:04,239
I don't think so this is the year of love. Hey,

1425
01:24:04,319 --> 01:24:06,640
maybe that did help with getting on the big podcasts.

1426
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:12,279
I really struggled with my love on the whatever podcast.

1427
01:24:12,319 --> 01:24:15,479
I'll tell you that much. That was really hard talked

1428
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:18,600
to smooth five dollars. I went to an Orthodox church

1429
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:23,239
last month. I came home cleared out my house. But

1430
01:24:23,359 --> 01:24:29,319
my girlfriend, Oh, I came home to my house being

1431
01:24:29,359 --> 01:24:33,279
cleared out, and my girlfriend of five years left and

1432
01:24:33,399 --> 01:24:35,600
is already engaged. Well, I think you dodged a bullet.

1433
01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:39,560
Then if you had a woman leave you because you

1434
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:42,119
went to Orthodox church, what it sounds like and she's

1435
01:24:42,159 --> 01:24:44,239
already with some other dude, I think that you dodged

1436
01:24:44,239 --> 01:24:46,560
a bullet. So thank God for that. Oh that's a

1437
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:50,239
wild superjet. Let's talk God. We already did that. One

1438
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:53,640
irrational became a member. What's up? Jem covered the debate.

1439
01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:58,119
I think he means the Ubie debate. We didn't actually

1440
01:24:58,119 --> 01:25:00,800
get to most of the stuff I wanted to talk

1441
01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:03,520
about today, which is okay, that's oftentimes what happens. I

1442
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:08,399
actually wanted to talk about the Piers Morgan appearance, which

1443
01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:11,319
I haven't commented on on my channel yet. I wanted

1444
01:25:11,359 --> 01:25:14,199
to talk about the upcoming debate with Tim Gordon on

1445
01:25:14,279 --> 01:25:18,760
Tim Cast. I didn't get to that. If I got

1446
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:21,319
enough energy, guys, I'll do a stream later tonight after

1447
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:23,640
Jamie and I stream. We'll see if I have enough energy.

1448
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:27,600
But I did. Also didn't get to getting deep into

1449
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:32,520
the UBI debate. But it sounds like a lot of

1450
01:25:32,520 --> 01:25:37,479
people have already kind of discussed it and vert of

1451
01:25:37,479 --> 01:25:39,600
big toasts to talk about the Voice of Reason debate.

1452
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:41,560
I meant to, but we didn't get to it today.

1453
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:44,800
We'll try to get to it again. H Brosey become

1454
01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:48,159
a member four months. Please don't debate Voice of Reason.

1455
01:25:48,680 --> 01:25:51,279
I've asked for a year and he keeps ducking and

1456
01:25:51,319 --> 01:25:53,760
avoiding and ignoring. I don't think he wants to do it,

1457
01:25:54,279 --> 01:25:56,720
and we already know they're all gonna say, oh, the

1458
01:25:56,760 --> 01:25:58,479
guy who's too mean. I don't I have to do

1459
01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:02,760
with debate with the version with me? We mean Dan Town,

1460
01:26:03,840 --> 01:26:06,039
Will you have the debate with Als O'Connor. Still so

1461
01:26:07,319 --> 01:26:13,119
emailing back and forth with Peers's Piers Morgan's producer. They're

1462
01:26:13,119 --> 01:26:18,960
supposed to be a cosmic skeptic debate, right, cosmic skeptic

1463
01:26:19,079 --> 01:26:23,560
won't debate theism with me? The very thing he's known

1464
01:26:23,720 --> 01:26:29,039
for debating. He says he won't debate me on. Now,

1465
01:26:29,119 --> 01:26:32,319
I think that's pretty interesting. I mean, he doesn't have

1466
01:26:32,359 --> 01:26:35,079
to debate, but why would he not debate me on

1467
01:26:35,239 --> 01:26:37,840
the thing that he's known for debating and the thing

1468
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:42,800
that many people associate me with debating theism. It's not

1469
01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:44,720
the only thing we debate, but it's one of the things.

1470
01:26:46,199 --> 01:26:49,239
And so the last message that I sent to Peers'

1471
01:26:49,359 --> 01:26:54,960
producer was is cosmic skeptic willing to debate any other

1472
01:26:55,079 --> 01:26:58,399
subjects relative to that? So I tried to word it

1473
01:26:58,439 --> 01:27:00,880
to see if he'll, you know, will make it work.

1474
01:27:01,279 --> 01:27:03,359
I've not yet heard back, but I definitely want to

1475
01:27:03,359 --> 01:27:04,800
do it. I want to do some kind of debate

1476
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:06,279
with him on Piers Morgan. It'll get a lot of

1477
01:27:06,319 --> 01:27:10,199
views Luca, how would you respond to Roman Catholic that says,

1478
01:27:10,279 --> 01:27:14,560
I don't have to listen to the statements from twenty fifteen.

1479
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:19,520
I think you're referring to the United States Conference of

1480
01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:23,159
Catholic Bishop's statement. I'm not sure what twenty fifteen statement is.

1481
01:27:23,199 --> 01:27:26,920
There another one I know, Reflections on Covenant and Mission

1482
01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:32,880
was from the two thousands. I mean, they can say

1483
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:34,399
that they don't have to listen to it, but the

1484
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:37,239
problem is that if the papacy says those types of things,

1485
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:43,039
then it's still heretical, whether or not Francis put any

1486
01:27:43,079 --> 01:27:47,800
authority behind it. So they keep equivocating on and moving

1487
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:51,319
the goalpost to say that, well, Francis didn't make it

1488
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:55,000
binding or authoritative. Binding and authoritative has nothing to do

1489
01:27:55,039 --> 01:27:58,640
with whether the statement's heretical or not. And if Francis

1490
01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:02,720
teaches error or heresy or John Paul the Second, then

1491
01:28:02,840 --> 01:28:06,920
they have departed from Vatican One's promise of indefectibility and

1492
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:10,399
of the Romans, he cannot teach error. Remember when Honoreus

1493
01:28:10,479 --> 01:28:13,560
is condemned, it's because he wrote one letter to another

1494
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:18,520
bishop that's not binding, that wasn't execa deeder quote unquote.

1495
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:20,439
It was just one letter to a bishop and that

1496
01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:23,880
was enough to get him condemned. So on their own standards,

1497
01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:27,520
it doesn't make sense. Oscar became a remember what's up dude.

1498
01:28:27,720 --> 01:28:31,960
Let's see last few super chests ever got Stampatron. No,

1499
01:28:32,159 --> 01:28:34,279
he got out of perennialism. He says, we got this

1500
01:28:34,319 --> 01:28:39,199
other guy. We got that one. Suki. Here's for the

1501
01:28:39,239 --> 01:28:43,119
foot farts. Thank you, Suki. We already read that. We

1502
01:28:43,199 --> 01:28:48,119
read that Stefan fifteen dollars, Jay, congrats on surpassing one

1503
01:28:48,159 --> 01:28:50,680
hundred k on X. You mentioned a friend of yours

1504
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:52,399
that lived in Russia and came back to the US.

1505
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:55,840
Could you say the reasons that he did it and

1506
01:28:55,880 --> 01:28:56,720
why it didn't work.

1507
01:28:58,039 --> 01:29:01,600
Speaker 12: I think that he's got several kids, he's got a brood,

1508
01:29:02,159 --> 01:29:07,039
and he felt like it was a challenge to kind

1509
01:29:07,039 --> 01:29:11,800
of try to live out in the countryside, and also

1510
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:14,119
the issues with the war.

1511
01:29:14,520 --> 01:29:17,760
Speaker 1: I think, if I recall, the Russian government was asking,

1512
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:21,039
you know, people who had come out there that they

1513
01:29:21,079 --> 01:29:23,000
might need to move back for a while or something

1514
01:29:23,079 --> 01:29:26,399
like that. But it's just a it's a big challenge.

1515
01:29:26,439 --> 01:29:29,159
I think franch one dollar guys. Remember we're about to

1516
01:29:29,159 --> 01:29:31,880
go live over here on Jamie's channel. It'll be a

1517
01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:36,079
few minutes from now, maybe four fifteen, and we're gonna

1518
01:29:36,119 --> 01:29:39,000
have a lot of fun talking about all this alien nonsense.

1519
01:29:39,119 --> 01:29:41,960
With alien eggs going around in the media, we've got

1520
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:46,319
more media promotion of aliens in UFOs, which I think

1521
01:29:46,359 --> 01:29:47,880
is a sye up. So we're gonna be talking about

1522
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:51,680
all that over on Jamie' channel here in a minute.

1523
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:58,640
What about Reddit Orthodox ex Orthodox channel. I've never gone

1524
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:01,880
to that. I don't know much about it, can't comment

1525
01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:06,199
on it. Tennis. Two dollars. Did you see Destiny review

1526
01:30:06,199 --> 01:30:06,680
of your debate?

1527
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:06,840
Speaker 3: No?

1528
01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:14,640
Speaker 1: I didn't, but I heard that he said that epistemology

1529
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:17,439
doesn't matter and is I he said, is a pistemology

1530
01:30:17,479 --> 01:30:22,399
even a thing? No, he said, is epistemic justification even

1531
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:25,880
a thing? So what does that tell you about a

1532
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:31,880
Destiny's level of theology, Steve, No, we already read that.

1533
01:30:34,239 --> 01:30:42,399
We read that. Let's see Charshie. Five dollars. Did you

1534
01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:45,199
read S. K. Bain's book nine to eleven as Ritual?

1535
01:30:45,720 --> 01:30:47,560
I have his book up on the shelf. I don't

1536
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:50,279
think I've read all that one, but I did read.

1537
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:53,960
I think William Ramsey had a book on that two

1538
01:30:53,960 --> 01:31:00,079
a long time ago. I read his I don't know

1539
01:31:00,079 --> 01:31:02,560
about all. I think it's a speculation. I don't mind

1540
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:05,000
people speculating on it, but I try to stick to

1541
01:31:05,119 --> 01:31:09,039
like the more demonstrable facts about the Big nine event

1542
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:12,039
that you can prove, like the Penac documents and that

1543
01:31:12,119 --> 01:31:15,439
kind of stuff. Jota one twenty dollars. It's weird to

1544
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:18,960
see the rise of online people suddenly worshiping Tiny Mustache Man.

1545
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:20,359
I think a lot of this is a sigh up.

1546
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:23,439
If you read Surf and Rose, he says not to

1547
01:31:23,479 --> 01:31:29,239
buy into Tiny Mustache Man's neopaganism. They're LARPing as if

1548
01:31:29,239 --> 01:31:34,199
they are soldiers. Tiny Mustache Man needs to go away,

1549
01:31:34,359 --> 01:31:37,239
just like Big Z. Yeah, I think both positions are

1550
01:31:37,279 --> 01:31:42,399
a problem. Let's see cool Bear could a ten dollars

1551
01:31:42,399 --> 01:31:45,199
This Sunday, I'll be going to my third Eastern Orthodox liturgy.

1552
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:51,840
Everybody at church said you were epic there. The priests

1553
01:31:51,840 --> 01:31:53,600
of the church looks like you. But he's older. Well,

1554
01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:56,760
I guess that's a good sign. So he's a hottie.

1555
01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:06,920
You get a hot priest. Making sure I didn't miss

1556
01:32:06,920 --> 01:32:08,960
any of the super chats going through here. Let's see

1557
01:32:09,039 --> 01:32:14,960
it's the last one. Andrew Dwyer, can you give a

1558
01:32:14,960 --> 01:32:18,159
shout out to doctor David Patrick Harry, Yeah, shout out

1559
01:32:18,199 --> 01:32:22,239
to Cotel. He got his PhD. He finished, so looking

1560
01:32:22,239 --> 01:32:25,119
forward to seeing him come back to streaming. I miss

1561
01:32:25,159 --> 01:32:27,840
Tristan stream too. Like Tristan doesn't streamed a long time.

1562
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:31,319
And I know that Chase will probably have a hard

1563
01:32:31,359 --> 01:32:35,079
time hearing that due to their rivalry. But I enjoy

1564
01:32:35,239 --> 01:32:40,279
both of their inputs, even if they are retarded birds.

1565
01:32:43,199 --> 01:32:45,800
How many love points do you have for Cotel? Thirteen

1566
01:32:46,279 --> 01:32:49,479
tyler A twenty jay, thank you for guiding me into Orthodoxy.

1567
01:32:49,560 --> 01:32:53,119
I just got baptized in a Greek church. What about

1568
01:32:53,159 --> 01:32:57,439
the patriarch's liberal views? I would say, Yeah, I go

1569
01:32:57,479 --> 01:32:59,600
ahead and try to perhaps find a Serbian or royal

1570
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:03,039
court church, probably ja tu one five dollars. My donation

1571
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:07,560
was too controversial. Sometimes people send in yeah, super chests

1572
01:33:07,600 --> 01:33:09,600
that he can't really read, but yeah, saw them on

1573
01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:13,199
twenty dollars. Well you debate Voice of Reasoner Wes Huff. Okay,

1574
01:33:13,239 --> 01:33:15,279
so again we tried to get west Huff to come

1575
01:33:15,319 --> 01:33:22,199
on the timcast debate. We tried to get uh some

1576
01:33:22,199 --> 01:33:24,760
some other prost to do or forget his name, and

1577
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:27,840
they were not interested. And so I asked ruse Line

1578
01:33:27,840 --> 01:33:30,399
when I was on his podcast if Wes Huff would

1579
01:33:30,399 --> 01:33:32,960
want to do some type of discussion, and that was

1580
01:33:33,039 --> 01:33:35,880
kind of perhaps open in the air as a potential thing.

1581
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:39,279
So we'll see. I've asked Voice of Reason and he

1582
01:33:39,359 --> 01:33:41,920
never replies, which tells me he doesn't want to do it. Ay,

1583
01:33:42,319 --> 01:33:44,520
Abby's Songe fifty dollars, thank you for the stream. Well,

1584
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:47,680
thank you, Abby, I like those fat fifty dollars. Super

1585
01:33:47,720 --> 01:33:50,520
chest Dmitri five dollars, will you ever do it? Literary

1586
01:33:50,520 --> 01:33:53,479
analysis of Dante's Divine Comedy? That's actually a good idea.

1587
01:33:54,159 --> 01:33:56,760
We've done a lot of literary streams. They don't get

1588
01:33:56,800 --> 01:33:59,399
any views because everybody's a bunch of dundums. It doesn't

1589
01:33:59,439 --> 01:34:04,880
read books. But Bob three dollars. I'm new to orthodoxy.

1590
01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:09,239
I'm Antiochi and the priest's wife gave a homily. Is

1591
01:34:09,279 --> 01:34:12,359
that normal? That is not normal? In fact, I would

1592
01:34:12,359 --> 01:34:16,880
say that's a big red flag, So maybe start looking elsewhere.

1593
01:34:17,239 --> 01:34:21,079
David Murdoch twenty dollars. If you present that an argument

1594
01:34:21,119 --> 01:34:24,880
in a short book, would you go with an Ristilian framework?

1595
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:33,520
He says the topic is Luciferian elements of Mormonism. I

1596
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:37,600
don't usually try to frame frame things in syllogisms. I

1597
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:40,159
mean I did that in like the stuff on Malnew Debate.

1598
01:34:40,239 --> 01:34:44,960
I mean sometimes it's useful if somebody's being really persnickety

1599
01:34:45,119 --> 01:34:48,239
about it. But I probably wouldn't do that, especially not

1600
01:34:48,279 --> 01:34:51,960
in a writing format. I would just go with the

1601
01:34:52,039 --> 01:34:54,279
usual stuff that I do when I talk about Mormonism,

1602
01:34:54,319 --> 01:34:56,520
which is like, why did Jesus Smith write himself into

1603
01:34:56,560 --> 01:34:59,439
Genesis fifty? I mean that's like a obvious, you know,

1604
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:03,600
con and sign there. Oscar became a member, and I

1605
01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:08,960
apologize to Ian Cross Lunch. Shout out to Ian. We

1606
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:12,000
had a good conversation with him down in Miami. Not

1607
01:35:12,079 --> 01:35:13,880
trying to be rude to Ian and the other people

1608
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:16,000
in line. I do have to go because we did

1609
01:35:16,039 --> 01:35:19,680
have a pre scheduled stream to do, but hop on

1610
01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:21,800
any time you guys want to next time. We do

1611
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:24,960
these streams like every day almost so see you guys soon. Everybody.

1612
01:35:24,960 --> 01:35:27,560
Have a good night. Oh and by the way, for

1613
01:35:27,600 --> 01:35:30,600
those of you on YouTube, we'll be right over here

1614
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:35,279
on Jamie's channel. You see Jamie put up these fifties

1615
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:38,880
Mermaid Babes here to lure you all over to her

1616
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:44,680
channel because we'll be doing the alien egg lamb stream.

1617
01:35:44,920 --> 01:35:47,600
This is gonna be a lot of fun because they

1618
01:35:47,680 --> 01:35:53,640
just insist on force feeding us alien bull crap no

1619
01:35:53,640 --> 01:35:57,600
matter how much people don't care. No one cares about

1620
01:35:57,720 --> 01:35:59,399
alien crap, they just keep pushing it.