Speaker 1: And I just turned around and I call ass out
of there.
Speaker 2: I was done.
Speaker 1: I wasn't deal with them. The hypocrisy of the cult
is one of the things that turned me away the quickest.
When I turned my head lights on, it turned and
looked at us.
Speaker 3: And one of the things I remember the most, where
the eyes were going red. I see an orb of light.
It is just circling these steps like it is waiting
for me. And he begins to tell them that he
saw a UFO.
Speaker 1: They're basically like, what are you talking about.
Speaker 3: That's seven foot up on a tree, peeking around it,
and that's where I saw the top of the muzzle,
nose and the eyes. As soon as I made eye
contact with this thing, I don't like death. Welcome back
to tin Foil Tells. I'm your host Brandon Tonight, I'm
joined by Ron and Mark. Guys, thanks for coming here
and talking with me.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having us.
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter to me who goes first, But would
you guys like to let the audience know a little
bit about yourself before we dive into it tonight.
Speaker 4: I'll go ahead. Mark.
Speaker 1: I'm a writer of science fiction and fantasy. I'm seventy
five years old. I live in Bulder, Colorado. I got
my start in writing with Ron Meyer, the co author
on this book, The High Strangeness of Bigfoot, about thirty
years ago. He mentored me and as he and I
have worked together on numerous projects, thousands of projects in
the last thirty years. I practice a martial art called
aketo and uh I live in a live in a
community that that the residents manage and uh we, uh
we do a pretty good job of it. I think
that's about that's my that's my tail.
Speaker 3: Mhm.
Speaker 5: So I've been in the entertainment business, starting in public
television in the seventies. Then they got a company and
was in the rise of cable producing and distributing. Did
the first feature film for Discovery with you know, Hollywood actors,
billion dollar budgets.
Speaker 4: Turn of the century.
Speaker 5: I sold my library and focused on producing, largely for
one company being educational material and the other one doing
edutainment where I got a specialty and serial killers of
all things. And I was hired to do a program
on Bigfoot pre COVID and I wasn't too excited about it.
I really had no idea about Bigfoot, but my daughter,
who was working for me at the time said you
would largely handle the hard work, and so that's how
I got into the paranormal. Other than that, I've been
involved in anomalous experiences throughout my life, including not doing
experiences where the self goes away, out of body experiences,
and lately I've been we've been recording with a particular
protocol we use that we call it the C six
protocol who we use a mindfulness meditation and a rare
old chant from the beginning of natural languages, and we're
beginning all sorts of weird recordings, appearances and even whatever
I was doing, it took control of a bunch of
environmental variables, including the magnetism of an area, and lifted
it up during the duration. Then on the gyroscope, it
lifted us up on the z accent. So it's been
pretty cool.
Speaker 3: I'm familiar with the C five because that's why I've
talked a few people to do that, like the CEE
five stuff where fly over with the UFOs or the
lights in the sky. But I'm not You're the first
one I've ever heard referred to six.
Speaker 4: I just made it up last summer.
Speaker 2: Okay, little pos encounters of a little more of a
kind or something like that, and so, and it was
discovered really a year ago last summer that I've did
it for real and with a group of people, and
I've done it now.
Speaker 5: In a group of two hundred people in Sedona sixty
and Eureka Springs. We did a small went of Bradshaw Ranch.
You ever hear a Bradshaw Ranch? Yeah, skid Marker ranch thing.
Speaker 3: I had an interview with someone last year about a
Bradshaw Ranch.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a cool place. I like it a lot.
I feel good there, but made a lot.
Speaker 5: We wrote a book on that, and I did a
movie on it, you know, doing extremely well.
Speaker 4: You know, you can still make money. That was making a.
Speaker 5: Ton of money then every platform. So you just got
to be lucky with these things.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So so right now I'm kind of just pursuing this
paranormal aspect of stuff, following expanding the use of the
protocol in different situations, seeing what it's going to result in.
Speaker 3: I know what the Bradshaw Ranch stuff they had from
the guy that I talked to, it wasn't just like
paranormal stuff, but they had bigfoot activity and he said
he even found like large tracks that he also thought
was like a soro pod.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we've seen that stuff too, like a big three
tote thing. Ye, my son, he he actually saw the bigfoot.
It's called big gall of all things. On the window
of the Adobe house. I interacted with with an entity
who was sitting on a chair. You could see it
on an SLS. You know what those are these cameras, Yeah,
cord like stick figures that when they find a human
And this one was pretty good.
Speaker 4: It was sitting in the.
Speaker 5: Chair and I had a green light laser pointer and
I pointed it at its feet. It took and looked
down and kicked it with his foot and we have
that red That's pretty cool. So when indicated had awareness
and that was probably the coolest thing. And we also
found a portal there that kind of worked unpleasantly with
a lot of people's biology identified it by cold spot
with a hot spot in between big electromag left a
lot of magnetic fluctuations and it seemed to go in
and out of existence while we were there filming.
Speaker 3: That sounds similar to what they have going on there
like Skinwalker Ranch two with the magnetism and everything. So
it is do you think these areas that are I
don't want to come up all. I guess they would
be a hot spot. But you think this is something
that has some like with the all the activities because
of something to do with all the magnetism itself. That's
what causes these energies going on there. I would say, no, okay, you.
Speaker 5: Know right now we're working with the hypotheses which came
from Jacques la kind of a famous Dudent war and
everything pioneer and technology is one of the co founders
of the first version of the Internet. And that's it's
that there's a presence and Colonel John Alexander calls it
the it because he said he can't think of a
better word for because he was the first one to
investigate Skinwalker Ranch and that that presence in masquerade pretty
much any form of once from these tic tac type
ufp UAPs or as a bigfoot, and they have a
kind of physicality to them. But it's what actually it is.
It's hard to say, and that's kind of what I'm
trying to figure out because it shows up for us
at these locations and strange ways in different ways every time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you so you've been writing this new book,
and it's basically the high strangeness of Bigfoot.
Speaker 4: Correct.
Speaker 3: Do you believe that Bigfoot itself now that you've been
investigating it, Do you think these bigfoot or just undiscovered
species or you think there's a lot more to them
than just an ape running around undiscovered?
Speaker 4: No mark I've been talking about.
Speaker 1: I think we can pretty much lay to rest the
idea of Bigfoot being a separate species or a species
of hominid that swings around through the trees in the
woods or in the jungle, or lives in the outback
of Australia known as the Yauzi or lives in the
hamalias as the Yetti. For two reasons. The first, I
think is the most important one is that there are
no fossil There is no fossil record of such a
being anywhere on the planet. Secondly, there with the ubiquitousness
of cameras nowadays cell phone cameras, you would think that
somebody would get a very clear picture of it that says,
oh wow, this is a hairy beast that swings through
the trees. Those are the two that's the first main reason.
But the second reason goes back to what Ron was
talking about in terms of the Jacques Vallet's control hypothesis
control system hypothesis, and that is that this presence can
manifest us whatever is needed in the moment to influence
us in different ways. And in the book The High
Strangents of Bigfoot, we look at this historically from around
fifty thousand years ago, when it's considered that humans first
began to learn speech or create speech, I should say,
and to the present, and this presence manifests and thing
in ways that are familiar to people at the time.
So let's take Let's take Saint Martin of Tours who
met a beggar on the road. He's a Roman legionnaire.
He sees a beggar on the road, he slices his
tunic in half, covers him, and then has a vision
of what he should really be doing, which is protecting
people instead of being a Roman legionnaire killing them. That's
a very simplified version of his story. But this vision
that he has is in keeping with his worldview at
the time. If we go to Saint if we go
to Joseph Smith, who founded the Mormon religion, an angel
comes to him. This is the nineteenth century angels and
demons are huge in the nineteenth century, so of course
his his vision is going to be a manifestation of
something that's familiar to him. Let's go to the twentieth century.
We're going through world history very quickly. Here we go
to the twenties.
Speaker 4: Can I just interrupt you. Nobody's ever captured an angel
or a demon either that's true.
Speaker 1: That's true, which is very very salient. Go to the
twentieth century. The worldview is changing. I'm not saying that
God is dead or that religion is dead. I'm not
saying that. But the worldview is changing. It's becoming decidedly
more secular than it was in the nineteenth century. And
that secularism is going to be seen by individuals who
have these experiences. So you some individuals will see angels,
some individuals will see demons. But other individuals who are
are less religious are going to see things that are
part of their worldview.
Speaker 4: Of U A.
Speaker 1: P s for example, a bigfoot of the dog man
for as another example, cryptids as examples, because this is
something that is familiar to them. And we all have
uh familiars use the old Coven term familiars. We all
have familiars that were that were that were very comfortable with,
and those manifestations will come to us with I call
it wisdom. They come to us with wisdom when we
need it. And I think that is part of what
Jacques Bela is saying with its control hypothesis system, This
presence comes to humans with wisdom when we need it.
Speaker 3: I've mentioned before the I think a lot of these
things that people's see might be the same thing, but
they're only we interpret them as what we see them
as or what they want us to see them as.
But I think, like when people see a bigfoot, or
like you said, even a dog man or an alien
or anything like like something different, maybe it's because that's
what it's being projected to us, and that's how we're
supposed to be able to understand it, because we can't
actually see what it really is, so it projects an
image of what we can understand itself to be. So
that's kind of that's where I think a lot of
this stuff And if people have heard me before, like
I say, a lot of this is connected. I think
a lot of even with the paranormal aspect to it,
I think a lot of it is somehow similar because
someone says their house is haunted, you have all this
activity going on there. And I interviewed someone before they said,
think of Bigfoot as like a forest poltergeist, because if
you have all the activity you have with Bigfoot in
your house, you'd say your house is haunted. But this
happens out in the woods, so they call it Bigfoot.
Sounds like that makes sense to me.
Speaker 1: Well, the sailish in Indian words sasquatch, which is synonymous,
of course with Bigfoot, doesn't doesn't refer necessarily to Harry
Be swinging through the trees, but it does refer to
a spirit that is in the forest and among many,
many groups, whether you're talking about Native American groups or
groups on oh in the deserts of South Africa or
in along the Amazon, refer frequently to spirits that are
around them and in the case say of of several
Plains Indians, these spirits could be very important guiding spirits
to you, whether they it's a part of a vision
quest or maybe some other right that you're going through.
Uh So, these these spirits, I think are extremely important
to us, maybe less important to the scientific community, because
it's the scientific community can't find what they call. And
I'm gonna put quotation marks or air quotes around this,
a rational explanation for a bigfoot or a haunted house.
Speaker 3: For example.
Speaker 4: That's no.
Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, that's that's kind of how
I feel about it too.
Speaker 5: So yet all these things you can't exclude some sort
of physical manifestation with them. The you know, the tic
TACs SMaL you know, traveling at speeds that are impossible,
you know, according to the normal consensus laws of physicalism
or reductionist physics. We recorded for these in our thermal
going just as fast, just as inexplicable.
Speaker 4: And you know there were there were there reel.
Speaker 5: As can be in some ways, but just impossible as well,
because nothing we have could go that fast. They weren't
like this cross for sixteen seconds. And in the protocol
it happened instantaneously when I said to the group of
two hundred people, look to the skies, and they showed
up just to so as Alec coronel ogers, I say
that these things are sentient. In other words, they they're
aware of what's going on, and they seem to be
pre cognitive to know to some extent what's happening. Before
we do, Like when people see bigfoot running across the road,
it's not an accident. This way of thinking and these
things become life changing for people because this shift the
world view people have if these things are possible, and
they can't deny them, although you know they might try, they.
Speaker 4: Don't fit it.
Speaker 5: And so I think it's part of there's a shift
going on right now, kind of like the death of physicalism.
You know, the old scientific consensus that everything is material
and energy and space and time. But that's just not
good enough. That we humans have are are in many
ways very unique, and we have consciousness and that needs
to be explained among other things. I mean, it seems
kind of ridiculous that there was in the beginning, there
was a bunch of helium or hydrogen, and that led
to Brandon.
Speaker 3: I was gonna agree. This makes me think of something
that I heard recently when it comes like to the
UAPs and like with a tip or altick whatever is
pronounced as like some of the things that they've done
to investigate. One of the guys that was in charge
of it, I think his last name was Lakatski. He
was telling people to stop thinking about it as like
basically a nuts and bolts type of a craft if
we see these things and without going because apparently he
can't go breaking his o's or going off record or
whatever it is. But the way I interpret of what
he was explaining is think of these things more as
a consciousness, spiritual type aspect to them rather than a
space craft. And that kind of goes back into I
just hear recently the Vice President claims these things are
he said demons, which I thought was a random thing
to say.
Speaker 1: That's his worldview. So yeah, So I want to come
back to this a little bit because we're talking about science,
and Ron was talking about science and how siloed it
can be. That's not to say that modern science and
technology isn't good. I mean, we wouldn't be talking the
way we're talking right now without modern science and technology.
It just wouldn't exist. But at some point modern science
and technology has to break out of the very small
box it's put itself in, that reductionist box that tries
to explain everything down to the smallest little item as
the as a way of saying, this is this is
how everything's meaningful. And I believe, and I didn't always
believe this because when Ron and I first met up
for the first book we did on Aliens and big
but he recruited me because of my skepticism. And one
of the great things that Ron convinced me of as
we've continued our working together in the last six to
seven years, is that my stub my skepticism can make
me so stubborn that I'm not able to see the
force for the trees. So dialing back my skepticism, I'm
able to say science isn't bad, but if it could
break out of that narrow box it's put itself in,
it might actually expand to even greater abilities than it
has now.
Speaker 5: And then you know, science is just people doing stuff
writing symbols, yeah.
Speaker 4: Language or mathematics.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: The voice wasn't.
Speaker 5: Done by some human being wisconscious. And you could take
all the written texts relating to you know, physics or
biology and all the symbols, and if we had no
culture to interpret them, they would be meaningless because they're
just it's just the map that we currently think is,
you know, the map of reality at best, it's not
the story. But right now I think the shift is
it's happening, is that we're beginning to to live with
not knowing. I think all these things are asking us
you can't figure them out. Those tic TACs, we can't
figure them out. When those things showed up, similar types
of things showed up at at Sedona. I don't know
how to make sense that. Nobody knows how to make
sense of it. We just got to kind of live
in this state of we just don't know when. I
think that's valuable, especially in relationship to the artificial and
tells that are coming along because they can't they certainly
can't function and not knowing. But mostly the great inventions
come about when people are in a state of not knowing.
They're just puzzling and thinking, and all of a sudden, boom,
something something shows up that connected things that weren't connected before,
like the classic example of things falling on Earth and
planet's going around the sun. You know that these two
things could be related. And most of the science occurs
that way, when when things that weren't related become related,
and that's the big step forward, and then you have
some more of those, and then you have more problems
and odd patterns, and eventually some person comes along and
makes another set of connections and it just moves along
like that. But I think right now it's good to
be living and not knowing because that's where the creative
aspect and juice of human beings that resides.
Speaker 4: That's just my opinion.
Speaker 3: It makes life a little more interesting, I think when
there's stuff that we don't actually know, because it gives
us something to research into look for more. I don't
know if that's just a human trade or not, but
we all have a feeling like there's something more than
what we know. There's always someone else to it.
Speaker 1: Jack Malay talks about that with his control system hypothesis
that the presence creates mysteries for humans. And I've said
this before that humans are as curious as cats, and
if the Earth really were flat, we'd like cats. We'd
be chasing after everything and falling off the edge. I mean,
we just would because we want to know about it.
So that state of not knowing that Ron was talking
about is the greatest source of our personal growth. And
some people take it in different directions. Stephen Jobs, for example,
took it in the direction of Apple and next thing
you know, we have iPods, iPhones, imax. I mean, that's
just an incredible display of technical of technologies from his
not knowing. For some of us, though, the not knowing
is long a spiritual path for some of us, So
not knowing is long a physical path.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: We don't know how fast we can run. We don't
know how fast we can swim. Can you imagine Michael
Phelps had gotten into the water and he went, oh, wow,
this is wet. Well, I really don't care about it. No,
he doesn't know anything about it. He goes, well, I
want to find out a little bit more about this,
And the next thing, you know, you know, thirty years
later he's got twenty three gold medals and the greatest
sports hero of our generation or of the millennial generation,
not our generation.
Speaker 3: And it's not too like dig at anyone that's religious
or whatever. But I've always thought it was interesting that
a lot of people are willing to accept their religious
beliefs without any sort of validation to it, like far
as physical proof that they can prove a different like
a higher power, like in like a god aspect to it.
But the same people will not believe in UFOs or
aliens or the idea of Bigfoot or these spirits or whatever.
But you're putting all your faith into something of the
same nature of a different type of a creator, a being,
a different type of energy of power. But you won't
believe in the aspects of some of these other things too.
Speaker 4: Human beings are strange, aren't they.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very much.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we find it easier to latch onto those things
that feel familiar to us. So I'm just going to
make a wild guess that all of us grew up
in a household that had some connection to religion somewhere,
whether our parents took us to church or our neighbors
parents took their kids to church. So that's a familiarity
to us. And whether we went to church or not,
there's a huge familiarity just in the worldview around us.
At all times. People are always talking about religion, and
right now the president's in a war with the Pope
of all things, I mean. So we're all conscious of
different religious faiths, sort of driven into us through history
and through our lives as we grow up. So say
it makes sense that we gravitate towards those things that
are familiar to us. But along your lines what you're
talking about, Brandon, when we take the familiarity and use
it as a skepticism to say nothing else can exist
outside of it. Then we've really siloed ourselves into this
small sort of worldview that doesn't allow us to grow.
I don't think it allows us to grow spiritually personally,
but it certainly doesn't allow us to grow in the
sense of becoming more aware of who we are as
human beings, who we what we can do as human beings.
Speaker 3: Our capabilities are we're not even really tapped into. I
think a lot of the abilities that we can manifest.
But I don't know if that's by design or just
us not knowing right now, but I feel like there's
things that humans are capable of that we don't even
know how to scratch the surface of.
Speaker 5: M hm. So I think, you know, these people who
are satisfied with Christianity, they're kind of source from the
same thing. You know that there's there's a mystery to
their to their life. They don't quite understand how it
is that they are. There's an insecurity there. They know
that they're vulnerable in their bodies, and so there's got
the thought is there's got to be something bigger and
better than just this, you know, being hungry running around
and drinking and cooping and knocking each other around. There's
got to be something else, and in many ways, these
forms of Christianity is kind of an answer to It
says there's a higher power, and that's somehow you're connected
to that higher power.
Speaker 4: And I think that's okay.
Speaker 5: I think pretty much everything that, even my own, my
own sense of of why I'm here, has never been
totally satisfied. I still don't get how it is that
I am, you know so, and I probably never will.
But there's this, I think, ever since one's got language,
they asked that question because they could. I don't think
my dog worries about if he's going to go to
heaven or no, or you know, how it is that
he's existing and all that sort of stuff. It's us,
human beings that want that asks those questions and feel
the desire to we're connected to something bigger, and that's
the mystery because we don't quite know what it is.
And you know, it keeps me going, how about you, Brandon.
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting and this is just me thinking
out loud, but it's always been interesting to me that
we are basically the only species that I'm aware of. Obviously,
there was offshoots, but we're the only ones that are
we do what we do, like we're the most evolved
in the sense that we live in houses, we drive vehicles,
we have technologies, we do all those other things, and
if you look at all the other species, there's nothing
close to us. So it's like we are special in
the sense that we are human, Like we have this ability,
we have thoughts, we can think about things, we can
actually think about, like religions, and we have these ideas,
and apparently we make weapons and blow each other up too.
But we're the only species that seems to do that.
You don't see any other species like obviously primates now
can they communicate amongst themselves or whatever. But it's not
how we are talking, right, you know what I mean.
They don't have the they don't have the humanization like
we do.
Speaker 5: I think the redefining what it means to what a
human is it is happening right now. Like you said,
there's one aspect of it is the expansion of certain
abilities that can emerge that are you know, quite surprise
to say, precognition, even it's very short, for example, telecanesis.
Speaker 4: Did you ever bend a spoon or something like that
by the wine.
Speaker 3: I've tried, I've never been able to do it.
Speaker 5: I did it really cool and it just was like buddy,
but there was no heat to it, which would if
you had heated it up, then it would have been
pretty hot when it wasn't. So we did this interview
with Colonel Alexander and he said that when they were
looking for people to do telekinesis experiments like using their
wine to kill things like goats, the first test was
could they been in the spoon and if they could,
could they accept that they could bend the spoon? And
not everybody could. Surprisingly, it just didn't fit in with
their world view, and so they were dismissed. And then
the rest of it. I guess the ones that succeeded
in both those tests, you know, move on and killed
goats and who knows what else. So there are these capabilities,
you know, and maybe it's all human in some sense.
That's one of the new ideas emerging, is that there's
little us and then there's big us, that this mystery
is also us, that there's only the one and getting
kind of wild here, Sorry about that.
Speaker 3: You're good. The the movie, I think was called the
Men that ster at goats. Wasn't that about them trying
to do that?
Speaker 4: That's right, Yeah, it was kind of you know version
of it.
Speaker 3: I figured that the movie version wasn't one hundred percent
accurate of what really went on because Hollywood likes to
portray things a little differently than reality.
Speaker 5: So Pardinal Alexander said that they did succeed to be
able to kill goats when they did the autopsy and
the goat like it was a bullet moving to their heart,
that there was no anti or exit. Mond, that's something
would tell me.
Speaker 3: I know they used to try remote viewing. That's something
that I think has been they've talked about, and that's
where the people. Oh yeah, it makes me wonder if
we're able to do that. And then you talk to
people that say that they're able to leave their body,
like travel the astral plane or whatever, like their consciousness
leaves their body. We could like as being raised as
a Christian, obviously we have a soul, is what I
was raised is the soul basically our consciousness. It's our energy.
And then people are able to leave their body and
then travel around. And I've talked to people that supposedly
are able to do this on command, Like they can
go into a meditative state and they leave their body
and they travel through these different things, They've interacted with,
different beings from these different planes of existence. It gets
to the point to where it's like, are they a
different reality a different dimension? Like that's where my brain
I started to get confused with it because it's like
trying to process all this information and it's like, I
don't understand how someone's able to do that, let alone
like where they're actually going and what they're interacting.
Speaker 4: They're not alone in that, you know.
Speaker 5: That's that's pretty typical of the response we have near
death experiences, right, same sort of kinds of telling of
the inaffable what you can't really talk about these experiences,
and so this idea that it's your conscious that leaves
the body and still is aware, you know stuff, that's
the twenty four of consciousness right now. That nobody nobody's
really settled one, you know, any one.
Speaker 4: Of them particular. Yeah, they're all fascinating to think about though.
Speaker 3: So that I'd love hearing stuff about it. But at
the same time, someone had asked me if i'd ever
want to try it, and I was like, my luck
would be I'd actually be the one that leaves my
body but not be able to come back to my body.
That'd be my consciousness or whatever it be, trapped wherever
it is.
Speaker 5: Sounds like a Hollywood movie. You end up in somehow
stuck in somebody else's body along with them.
Speaker 3: I better I better write it and get in touch
with my Hollywood buddies and get a get a cut
of that.
Speaker 5: So so I could. I can tell you one story
like that. We have this thing. There's this prayer tree
in a place in Colorado where people touch it and
they have these weird experiences.
Speaker 4: It was something that the.
Speaker 5: Juden said done and this one girl, young teenage girl,
did this and she described leaving her body and traveling.
I said that was really cool, and she said, no,
it wasn't. I'd never want to do that again.
Speaker 3: I've talked to someone before, and I've actually talked to
several people. One version of the near death experience was
they saw people from their path like it's almost the same,
like they saw their loved ones that have passed away
and they were around them. And then I've heard other
people talk about when they passed they saw a light,
but they were told not to go to the light,
and if you go on the light, you're basically going
back in a recycle event. So they didn't go to
the light, and they started seeing these other things and
that's how they started traveling around and seeing the other
like these weird beings and other things. I was like, again,
I don't know if this is true, because people can
make things, you know what I mean, Like, you don't
know what everyone's experience or maybe that's what they believed
that was happening to them, but there's no real verification
one way or another. It's just someone's account of what
they experienced.
Speaker 1: Well, it's not unlike people who say they've been abducted
by aliens, or that they've seen a UAP or they've
seen Bigfoot. These I like to say about people who
share their experiences. For example, one time Ron and I
were discussing a book we were writing. It was called
The book was called Simulation, and that the earth is
the premise of the book is that the world that
we now inhabit is actually not real. It's a giant
ai simulation for the simplicities. And they were listening to
us discuss this book that we're writing, and because we
discussed the characters and everything, and the young woman they
probably are about fifty years younger than Ron and me,
and the young woman comes over and says, I don't
know whether you guys would find this interesting, but we
were abducted by aliens. And she and her partner, young
man about the same age, sat down and talked with
us for about ten minutes about their experience, and you
could tell talking to them that they were not making
it up. They were not like, oh, I'm we're going
to titillate these guys and have fun with them. They
were earnest, and in their earnestness, they revealed a lot
about themselves personally, not I mean, I'm not talking about
details or gory details or something, but about how they
viewed life. And it was very important to them that
they came out of this alien abduction situation feeling actually
like they had had a beneficial experience. And then as
soon as you know, they got done telling their tale,
they thanked us and they walked away, and Ron and
I went back to discussing the book simulation. But I
came away from that and Ron has had similar experiences
with people who come up to him talk about bigfoot
sightings or UFOs, that these people aren't making it up.
So when they're traveling on the astral plane or they're
seeing bigfoot or something, this is very real to them.
It is something that really has happened, and it's not
a psychotic break. It's a real happening for them.
Speaker 3: I think when people come on my show, when I
interview everyone, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anybody.
I think everyone that comes on here believes what they're
telling me. And I try and remain skeptic too, like
you mentioned earlier, like your Skepta, I've had experiences and
I try and write them all off. I try and
explain them. That's the reason I made a documentary is
because I want to know what happened to me, and
I'm still looking for answers because for me, I'm kind
of one of those people that was like I'm I
didn't believe in a lot of this stuff. But the
more I've experienced in life, I've now went from being
skeptic too. I believe that there's something really going on
and I can't explain it. But I think when people
come on here. When they're explaining what happened to them,
they one are telling the truth, like they did experience something.
But I'm of the side of, well, maybe it's not
exactly like they saw big Foot, but kind of like
what we were talking about before. It's a bigfoot to them,
But what if it's something else that they had seen
In those four reasons, I feel like anyone that has
these experiences, they're usually a reason why they have them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So one of the ways to look at this
is that people are taking seriously that there's quite a
few of these different states of consciousness. People who are
on Who's enogenics, you know, they have variety of different
experiences that they talk about.
Speaker 4: We have dreams.
Speaker 5: There's a hypnogogic state in the states between between awake
in a sleep where you're like in a theater of
action and people show up there.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: There are people that travel they ask to planes, what
dear death experiences? They have different consciousness experiences. There's many
of these types of things, not just one that seemed
as human beings seem to be capable of experiencing one
way or another. Mark and I do flow practices based
on simple martial arts, and we get into a state
where the doer is gone, there's no self anymore.
Speaker 4: Everything works out wonderful. In a number of cases.
Speaker 5: When I was in that state, my body returns to
my twenty five version of my body and I move
freely in a way that's just not possible normally. I
mean recently, I was at a place where they where
we were walking this place in Wisconsin where the Beasts
of Very Road is, and I slipped into that state.
And usually I'm the line, you know, because I'm old,
and all of a sudden, I was totally free. I
just charged a long way ahead of everybody else. And
they said what was going on? I just said, well,
I got into the state. So that's another state. And Mark,
Mark's familiar with that state because we were basically there's
a when I say we, there's a situational awareness and
in a kind of power that's that can just not
kill anybody instantaneously in that state because there's no self
doing anything, yet things get done and it's weird as hell, right, Mark.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, we were training with a friend of ours, Dmitri,
and I was attacking Dmitri, and he put himself in
that state, and I would say that Dmitri touched me
with all the power that you you stick your finger
into cotton candy, I mean, and you know you would
TI can stick your finger in without cotton candy, without
very much power. And I remember that as I was
falling backwards, I was thinking, oh, I can get my balance,
and suddenly there was no earth beneath me. So whatever
Dimitri was experiencing, suddenly I experience. And I'm like, I'm
I don't know how I'm going to I don't know
how I'm going to land because there's nothing beneath me.
And then I hit the ground and it's like I
come out of that state. Dmitri comes over and helps
me up. But these flow states are not about being successful.
They're about being in the moment, being in the now,
and whatever happens is successful. That might be one way
of saying it, but I don't like that term. Whatever
happens happens, and there's no goodness to it, there's no
evil to it. There's just simply what is happening.
Speaker 4: And there's no mark and there's no run.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do.
Speaker 5: There's a variety of these things, and people are coming
forward and beginning to see that there is a big
variety of different consciousness states, and it certainly means that
we as humans are much more unique than we ever
thought we were.
Speaker 3: I do have a question, and the footprint on your
wall besides you, has got me thinking about this. If
these bigfoot creatures or whatever we're seeing are more of
a spiritual type thing, how does stuff like that leave
a footprint or some sort of physical evidence if they're
not necessarily a physical being.
Speaker 5: So there's something really powerful behind that, right m Something
really strange that we can't figure out, because you know,
people have reported seeing a bigfoot and then it disappears
and they go find the print I mean before their eyes.
I mean I've talked to multiple people who have had
that experience. So, you know, the tic TACs, they're they're
they're impossible, going to the way we think, but yet
they were there, so they they have a physical effect
on they're creating a you know, a thermal image, you know,
which is you got to be kind of physical to
do that, like the ones we captured. Yet they're doing
things that are would normally be impossible. So this, whatever
they say, is allows for that to happen and you know,
that's not normally that we can think about something. Right,
If they're just spirits not to float around in our minds,
they're not going to you know, people have you know,
telekinesis in a way is kind of that, right? Do
you have your mind and you kill a goat by
thinking about it?
Speaker 4: Different? Is it?
Speaker 5: I mean, there's there's nothing there to look at. I
don't think when when the telekinesis is taking place and
then there's a result. Yet there's probably an experiences of
the person who's doing that, has it has its own
or her own experience of doing something right or something's
happening that there's an awareness of it, not random. Somebody said,
you know, kill the goat.
Speaker 3: My concern with that is if they're able to kill
the goat, where's a stop at from there? Does that
means someone could be out there just anywhere deciding they're
going to kill any sort of person just from thinking
about it.
Speaker 4: Well, it's only just possible, doesn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The reality is, and people have said this before
and asked me, is obviously when I did what I
did for my film, I was out in the woods
and doing all sorts of things, and they're like, are
you afraid of what happens if you run into something?
I was like, I'm more afraid of running into a
person than i am a one of these things, because
I was like, to my knowledge, the human is the
more of the ones more likely to shoot me or
kill me or something, rather than a hairy man out
in the woods or a dog pan or something like that.
I'm probably gonna have it more of a chance of
getting shot by a property owner or something. O.
Speaker 5: Your parents were wise to let you know about that.
Is it a good job?
Speaker 1: Well, when we talk about the footprints which you brought
up in ron Sex, you can find the footprints. They
go for a few feet and then they suddenly disappear.
That actually also fits in with Jacques Malet's control system
hypothesis that the mystery is there for a reason. If
we actually caught the big foot, but we wouldn't have
a mystery anymore. We go, aha, we have it, you know,
And but the presence has that mystery for a purpose,
and so the presence is able to manifest in the
ways it needs to manifest, including footprints which go on
for five or six steps or maybe a dozen steps
and then disappear. The tic TACs that appear in the sky.
They're zigzagging across the sky at impossible speeds and then
they disappear.
Speaker 3: Do you I don't want to interrupt, but you mentioned
tic TACs. You think it's odd that back in the
forties they called them foo fighters, like the balls of
light that they were seeing, and then everyone started to
call them flying saucers, which was based off of Kenneth Arnold.
I think what it was is an original depiction of
wasn't really a salt. He said it was skipping like
a saucer. So that's where the whole flying saucer thing
came about. But what we know of these crafts like
they've changed their appearance as we've changed our technology. So
the more evolved we've gotten with our technologies, the description
of these things have always been more advanced in the
sense they're not the same descriptions. So they went from
being the original depiction that he was like a crescent
shape that had like these little almost looks like what
we would call now the stealth bomber, but it was
more rounded in the front rather than what we have,
and then they turned into these crafts, these round the
typical stereotype type of a UFO, like the round saucer crafts,
and then they started to get triangular like Throughout the
nineties and early two thousand they were all reporting these
black triangles and everything. Now everyone's talking about tic TACs.
It's almost like it. The more we get into it,
the shape in the description of what these things are
has also changed.
Speaker 4: Yeah, getting keeps the mystery alive, doesn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The more you start to find things out, so
you think, then it keeps on evolving too. The mystery
just keeps being more of a mystery.
Speaker 4: So that's the heart disease.
Speaker 1: Part of part of it is is human ingenuity, and.
Speaker 4: It keeps us not knowing, keeps us not knowing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so when you don't know something and you're guessing
at it, your imagination can come up with fantastic things.
Speaker 4: When the when.
Speaker 1: The the Pilgrims came to the New World and they
went out into the woods for the first time, they
heard these enormous sounds. There's some in some of the
diaries they talk about these enormous, incredible sounds, and they
thought that there must be huge beasts out in these woods,
like bears. It turned out that they were like raccoons
because because you know, they had never seen a raccoon before,
and and so that that no was that had to
be huge. So humans imagination is great. We can go
with HG. Well's War of the World's Jules Verne, Captain
Nemo twenty thousand Leagues under the Sea. These great imaginations
of science fiction that happened the day the first day
the Earth stood still, I think it's nineteen fifty three.
Has an actual saucer, which goes back to what you
were talking about, Brandon, But by the time Star Trek
comes around, it's still kind of saucer shape, but now
it's got these kind of limbs on it. And then
the the Romulans have war birds that are different looking
and stuff. And by the time you get to Star
Trek in the next generation, the imagination has is full blown.
That ships can take any size shape.
Speaker 3: If your.
Speaker 1: A fan of SG one, some of them are pyramids,
you know. So our imagination allows us to expand the
definition of what we think is strange to from every
kind of everyday household items like a saucer to a
to a war bird. For a Romulan warbird, it Star Trek,
the next generation. That doesn't mean that these that once
we use our imagination to see something, doesn't mean that
that mystery is solved. If anything, our imagination makes the
mystery even bigger. And if we go back to Jacques
Bela's control system hypothesis, that mystery is key to human
evolution from the time we created language fifty thousand years ago.
That's what most researchers believe is that humans didn't start
creating language untill somewhere between one hundred and fifty thousand
years ago. From that moment forward, we have evolved in
many different ways, not only language, but technology and our
religions of everything has evolved until we're at the twenty
first century. I have a personal feeling that we've evolved
for a reason. I haven't really pinpointed that reason yet
round and I've discussed it many times, but my feeling
is that the current AI technology, the LM technology, can
mimic humans so well that what if the mystery the
presence has been has been pushing this mystery on us
to create a different species a a silicon species, for example,
or something that mimics humans.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's just for me since I'm a writer of science
fiction and fantasy.
Speaker 4: I find that.
Speaker 1: A very interesting proposition.
Speaker 3: I saw a photo today and someone remade it with
today's technology, and the original AI photo was generated in
twenty twenty three, and you could tell it looked real
in some aspects, but you could tell from three years
ago that it was AI. The new photo of the
same exact thing is very hard to tell that it's
AI now, And to me, that's only been three years,
and it's getting that hard to tell photos of being
what was easily able to be detect that it wasn't
real to things now that they're like, well is that AI?
You have to question everything now because it's getting so realistic.
And if it's that way within three years, what's it
going to be like in another three years?
Speaker 4: So we're just three avatars talking to each other.
Speaker 3: Right, That's kind of That's kind of where I go
with it, because the whole simulation theory is actually something
that I kind of get into as even I can
answer it in like religious aspect too. There is a creator.
I was like, yeah, there is a creator, So what
if the creator is whoever designed what we're in, like
the world that we live in, our universe could have
been part of their engineering. So everything that we're guessing
and things that happen, and the strange things that are happening,
and there's all part of some sort of a code
that we're involved in this weird, strange simulation of a life.
But I don't think it's like the matrix. I don't
think we're just plugged into a machine. But the reality
is if we're able to evolve and trans for our
consciousness or whatever our energy and travel around and do
all these other things, it's almost like you're upgrading. Like
you said, when you go into these states when all
of a sudden you have this energy where you're out
leading ahead of people. Whenever you get this like state
of that's not a normal thing. So how are we
able to do that? Like for most people, they couldn't
do some of the things that you guys have talked
about being able to do. So it's like you've tapped
into something.
Speaker 5: So it's the opinion I have here is that you
get rid of the doer. The doer has to disappear
when people have these mystical experiences, near death experiences, the
doer the brand and the run and the mark is
gone and then you can call that the ego. But
the language part has gone too. That goes with it,
because that's what the language createss, the ego of the self.
And when they come back, they can't put it into
words because there were no words or symbols in that sense,
the normal sense. Because then and that's in the flow
state too, that the doer goes away. And that seems
to characterize almost all all these kinds of states that
are you know, even even the lucinogenics, that the normal
ego disappears and weird shit shows up.
Speaker 4: You know that.
Speaker 5: I don't know if if you ever had taken a trip,
but you know what I'm talking about, the mystical experiences,
religious ones, the self has gone and one is usually
one no separation with God or the soul, something like that,
and there's the language has gone again.
Speaker 1: So the language is what languages explains the world around us.
If you think about a cat, the cat never tries
to explain the world around it. Cat just sleep, gets up, eats,
chases mice, goes back to sleep, you know whatever. It
just does what it does. The cats three blocks, yeah,
I mean, And if you've ever taken a dog out
for a walk dog is all over the place because
everything is absolutely in the moment for it. But humans
are unique in that we have language, and we use
language constantly to explain what's going around going on around us.
So right now, each of our brains is looking at
an image on the screen. I know this is only
audio for the people listening, but each of us is
looking at an image on the screen, and we're explaining
what's happening through language. When Ron talks about the flow state,
when you're in the flow state, there is He's right.
The brain turns off the brain which is constantly explaining
to us with words and symbols, which other species don't have,
the only species on the planet that has words and symbols.
Those words and symbols go away, and whatever happens happens.
There's no goodness to it, no badness to it.
Speaker 3: It just happens.
Speaker 1: When Dmitri touched me and I fell down, I didn't
feel as though Dmitri was doing something bad to me.
All I thought was where am I going to land?
The earth seemed to have disappeared, And I mean, I'm
not even thinking that in the sense of how we're
talking here, that actually happened after I hit the ground
and they asked me what happened? I said, I tried
to explain it to them, but as we have found out,
going into the flow space, you can't explain it. The
moment you explain it it it disappears you need it.
Speaker 4: You need itself to explain it. Yeah, yeah, just the
way we talk.
Speaker 1: We had a We had a guy who wanted to
experience what we were doing, and he brought a friend
who was an actor. And I find that actors are
fabulous at learning things. They seem to just get rid
of their ego the moment they need to learn something,
and they just learned it. Any rate, this guy had
never worked with a weapon called a joe. It's a
Japanese staff. It's about fifty inches tall and an inch
in diameter, and we were doing a flow state exercise
with that. He'd never done this before, but he went
into that flow state and he was working with I
think it was with Dimitri. At any rate, we watched him.
He was perfectly in sync. Now, Dmitri is an expert
with the joe, knows how to use it. This guy
had no idea how to use the joint, never used
one before. But suddenly he's in complete sink sink with
Dmitri and they're moving effortlessly around each other. He puts
the joe down. They stop. The guy puts the joe down.
He looks at us and he starts crying because he'd
never had that experience before and he couldn't explain it.
Speaker 5: So he wanted to have this experience for a long
time as a meditator. His name is Lonnie Woodley. He's
the father Hylane Woodley. You know, an a listening actress.
You know who she is.
Speaker 3: She used to the Data or was married to Aaron Rodgers,
wasn't she.
Speaker 5: Well, she hung out with Aaron Rodgers. I get to
meet Rogers as the result of that that didn't work out.
Uh so, yeah, this was you know, the dissolution of
the self and the contact with the truth of whatever.
The greater truth that showed up for him was something
you know, seeking. But all he had to do is
get rid of Lonnie. And it seems like there's about
the movement practices that we do in are kind of
like play martial arts make it occur quicker than you know,
sitting on the couch.
Speaker 4: For sure, as you.
Speaker 5: Can sit on the couch like he had done, you know,
for nearly twenty five thirty years, never had the experience
that he was was told was available to the truth
of who he is or whatever you you know, however you.
Speaker 4: Want to frame it.
Speaker 1: So one hundred thousand years ago, before we created language,
were we were in that state most of the time,
just in that state, in that flow state, most of
the time at one as a hunter gatherer, whether we're
in a clan situation or a small family group of
some kind, you're in that situation all the time. All
the technology that we've developed in fifty thousand years, it's
very difficult to get into that into that state. You're
driving in your car, you're going to the bank, you're
this technology makes it very difficult to get into that
flow state. So that's what makes it so unique to us. Now,
it's not that unique to a person who like a
hutter gatherer in the in the Uh, in the Amazon.
They become one with that forest in that moment. There
is no thinking of, oh, I'm going to have a
huge meal when I catch this this deer. No, they're
just simply in that moment.
Speaker 5: So there's there's a research now suggesting that Brandon and
your Mark, we're in that state when you were children,
before you knew language, m hm, that you're you're naturally
in that state. And but it's also the state in
which you just learn language. Nobody teaches it. You pick
it up by hearing them, which goes to the another
idea that the l ll M structure, that's the heart
of the you know chat, JBT and Claude and all
those that we have one operating too. That's how we're
talking to each other. It's auto regressive in nature. So anyhow,
perhaps you know we we somehow another we can connect
with the time, the brief time when we were kids,
when before we got language, when we were just in
the everything was play, everything was just you know, you
have any kids. I have four, so you know, you
know there's that time when they're just three as can
be right, Yeah, I've got I've got two teenagers and
seven year old and as soon to be five year old.
They're they're just transitioning out of you know, the Glorias
state one's with the universe, and then of course they
get to be teenagers, then they get to be social
animals and watch out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got a fifteen year old daughter and a
thirteen year old son.
Speaker 4: Oh so you know that then too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a it's a adjustment. We'll just say that
before we've been going on for a little over an hour,
before we wrap things up. Is there anything else you
guys would like to discuss before we talk a little
bit more about your latest book?
Speaker 4: Now, I think.
Speaker 1: That we pretty much we're starting to repeat ourselves a
little bit in terms of the Jacques Belat idea of
presence and mystery the flow state. So yeah, let's move
on to the high Strangers of Bigfoot.
Speaker 3: Is this something that the book? Is it something that
you guys have been talking about for a while.
Speaker 5: And started last summer when I did the first actual
control what I call the C six Protocol, and all
this weird stuff showed up that were recorded. And this
was a place in the Rockies that had no paranormal
It wasn't like a Bradhaw ranch or anything. It was
just an area along a creek, you know, in the mountain.
And then I took it to dont Shasta, which is
just the opposite. It's probably one of the most noted
spiritual places, and the presidence showed up in a different way,
and so I did. I did a movie of this,
because you know, that's what I do. I make movies.
But I could not get into the historical aspect behind
these phenomenas, such as the origin of music, which is
auto regressive. Probably these humans that developed language were doing
music first, which is auto progressive means the right note
has to follow the next note. It keeps building that
way because they could beat drums or you know, and
that and trace these histories of the mystery how the
paradigm shifts along for the next innovation and technology and
a new paradigm shift and you get new instruments, and
then it shifts again. And so the book really expands
on that whole aspect, plus also telling the story of
what happened at these two sites. That's kind of the essence.
You can watch the movie on YouTube, you know, High
Strange is a big foot and last I checked, there's
over eighty thousand views on it, which is.
Speaker 4: Pretty good for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 5: And then the book has got the same title and
you can find it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble,
all those good places.
Speaker 3: Make sure to include links in the show notes for
anyone listening.
Speaker 4: That would be really good.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Ron has the actual experimental experience, and he came
to me because I was trained as a historian at
the University of Cincinnati. So then he asked me to
investigate the historical aspects of the high strangeness of Bigfoot,
where we get into the origin of language and how
the presence manifests itself throughout history, from what I would
say is to individuals for most of human history to
the present day in the twenty first century, when thousands
of individuals are coming forward with these kinds of experiences
thanks to the Internet.
Speaker 5: So, for example, the Bigfoot is sort of an archetype
in a way. It's the Harry wild man or how
very wild woman who's free, you know, in the in nature,
and there's a bit of us wanting to be that still,
you know, And I think the Bigfoot that we see
is kind of like that, that archetype, and that's in
our mind, you know, the subconscious or the collective conscious
of all people. You know, there there other types like
the father or the mother that we all share. And
one of the ways the presence to move things forward
quickly is to shift that collective consciousness archetype in some
way for everybody, because everybody seems to have access to it,
at least in the way some people think about it currently.
M there's a mental aspect, not just the physical.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: The more I've gotten into a lot of this stuff,
the more questions keep popping up. And that is one
of the biggest frustrations I have, like doing my show,
doing the things that I do, and I've realized that
the answers that I'm looking for, I don't think I'm
ever going to get. And that seems to be the
thing with a lot of people that go down this
path is we're always searching for answers, but we're never
We're coming away with more questions. We're not getting that answer.
And we've talked about this a little bit earlier. It's
like we're we keep evolving the question like it just
we're not. It keeps the human nature to keep wanting
that mystery we have. We want to solve the mystery,
we want the answers, but it just keeps changing to
keep us going.
Speaker 5: That's the idea we're expounding in the book and the movie.
Speaker 3: M hmm. I think I said, I think it's definitely
something that I'm going to end up checking out because
it feels like it is right up my alley. A
lot of the stuff that I'm the path that I'm
going down myself, my own personal journey. I feel like
this is something that I can relate with.
Speaker 1: Good.
Speaker 3: Well, we can probably wrap this up. But for anyone listening,
where can they like? I do you want anyone to
be able to reach out to you? Guys if you
have anything coming up that you're going to be at
or anything that you would like to let the audience
know about.
Speaker 5: Uh, that next conference I'm going to be at is
it in all the Illinois at the end of June.
It's the Great American Ghost Conference. Okay, do you like ghosts?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I'm going to send you an email with a
link to my documentary. It covers a lot of the
stuff we've talked about it as paranormal. It's got UFOs
and it's got cryptis all in there, all from the
small area, so I think you might find it interesting.
Speaker 4: I'll tell you. I'll reply back with the link to
Jensen Media for you.
Speaker 3: Okay, I appreciate that.
Speaker 4: So you should come to all not that far away
from me. You could drive there.
Speaker 3: Do you happen to know what date it is? I'm
booked on June twentieth. I'm doing an event in Indiana
that I'm speaking out.
Speaker 1: So meanwhile, if people want to read the book, they
can get it through Hangar Publishing or they can go
to Amazon. It's at Amazon. And the movie Ron the
movie is available on all the different platforms. You're Ron
handles the movie. I'm just the author or co author.
Speaker 4: On the book.
Speaker 5: I'll send you the information on that conference.
Speaker 4: And Okay, you know where all Dent, Illinois is. It's
kind of across from San Louis.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah's probably about three hours away from I'm in
north central Indiana. So is the documentary available only on
YouTubers and on all the other streaming platforms as well.
You okay, well, it's been a pleasure talking to you guys.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having us on. It's been great.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you guys very much. If you would like
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