Speaker 1: Bye, Billy cunning end the Great America. Welcome this Thursday
Speaker 1: afternoon of the tries date the events and involving the
Speaker 1: funeral of Deputy Sheriff Larry Henderson. Will be on the way.
Speaker 1: Later on we're going to have a guest on to
Speaker 1: talk about the particulars. But until then, joining you and
Speaker 1: I now, who is the Kent County Prosecutor, Rob Sanders?
Speaker 1: And Rob Sanders, welcome again to the Bill Cunningham Shaw.
Speaker 1: I want to get you on to talk about the
Speaker 1: Boone County case and the police shooting. But before we
Speaker 1: get to that point, you've been at this for about
Speaker 1: twenty or thirty years, Prosecutor. I think Connie Pilich is
Speaker 1: new and we anticipate she'll do what's right down the
Speaker 1: road in this case. Relative to Rodney Hinton, who is
Speaker 1: the father who purposely killed a police officer. Is there
Speaker 1: something in Kent County City of Covington. I talked to
Speaker 1: cops and Borrow Ohio. I spoke to one in Blue
Speaker 1: Ash who says their heads are on a swivel right now.
Speaker 1: Social media is a buzz with the issue of the
Speaker 1: funeral activity starting at four four o'clock today, Whether there'll
Speaker 1: be some activist I call them murderers who may want
Speaker 1: to kill more cops by using their car as battering rams.
Speaker 1: The cops are in turmoil. How would you describe the
Speaker 1: mental emotional state of police in the city of Covington.
Speaker 2: Well, Willie, I think, first of all, thanks for having
Speaker 2: me back on. It's been a few weeks, but it's
Speaker 2: always it's always good to be back on your show.
Speaker 2: But you know what a I guess tense time for
Speaker 2: lack of a better term, and I think that tension
Speaker 2: is spelt all the way across on the south side
Speaker 2: of the river. I think that having heads on a
Speaker 2: swivel is probably a good thing for police right now,
Speaker 2: because even though we support our police in northern Kentucky
Speaker 2: and we back the blue one hundred and ten percent
Speaker 2: all the time and every way we can, I think
Speaker 2: they still know that there is a different climate going
Speaker 2: on on the north side of the river, and we
Speaker 2: never know when the problems on the north side are
Speaker 2: going to bleed across the river on to the south side,
Speaker 2: and certainly we don't want any of those problems. We
Speaker 2: don't want anybody attacking our police like we saw in Hamilton. County,
Speaker 2: but that's certainly a possibility. So heads on a swivel
Speaker 2: is probably a good thing. I think the officers on
Speaker 2: the south side of the river, it just makes them
Speaker 2: appreciate that much more how much better it is to
Speaker 2: work in a law enforcement friendly community like we have
Speaker 2: and throughout nord of Kentucky, not just Kenton County, but
Speaker 2: Boone Campbell County as well, and the furthest south you
Speaker 2: get in northern Kentucky. You know, it doesn't change. It
Speaker 2: stays very much pro police throughout the commonwealth, really especially
Speaker 2: the north end of the Commonwealth. But that said, Willie,
Speaker 2: you know, I think that all officers have an eye
Speaker 2: across the river and what's going on. I think that
Speaker 2: they feel the tension, and certainly they sympathize with the
Speaker 2: officers in Hamilton County and southern Ohio, and they know
Speaker 2: what they're going through and they share in that anxiety
Speaker 2: that those officers have to be feeling. Right now, you know,
Speaker 2: this Hamilton County Sheriff's deputy was doing nothing but directing
Speaker 2: traffic for graduation, something that should have been a happy occasion.
Speaker 2: Wasn't even his agency that was involved in the police
Speaker 2: shooting a day earlier, and yet he paid the price
Speaker 2: when this murderer just flat out attacked him and killed
Speaker 2: him in cold blood. And we are at a crossroads,
Speaker 2: I think for the new prosecutor's office. As you mentioned,
Speaker 2: I've been doing this for almost two decades now. Next
Speaker 2: year will be my twentieth year. I think the one
Speaker 2: thing that I can say about law enforcement in one
Speaker 2: of Kentucky is they know me well and they know
Speaker 2: what my decisions would be. If this case had happened,
Speaker 2: this attack on this police officer had happened in Kenton County,
Speaker 2: nobody would be asking questions about what the charges would
Speaker 2: be or whether or not the death penalty would be pursued.
Speaker 2: That I have a track record of going to trial
Speaker 2: and protecting our police officers in the dangerous work that
Speaker 2: they do. Anytime someone is foolish enough to attack them,
Speaker 2: our police officers in this community know that we will
Speaker 2: be coming down hard on any of those offenders. And
Speaker 2: that certainly would be the case, and I'm hopeful it'll
Speaker 2: be the same in Hamilton County. But this is a
Speaker 2: defining moment, I think for the new Hamilton County prosecutor.
Speaker 2: All eyes are upon her office.
Speaker 1: Let's break down what the so called activists are saying,
Speaker 1: and that is that there was an execution of the
Speaker 1: eighteen year old Ryan Hinton by Cincinnati police. The names
Speaker 1: not in the media. The officer involved as a veteran,
Speaker 1: he's been at it for a long time. The officer
Speaker 1: who actually shot Ryan Hinton because of his behavior, is
Speaker 1: well respected. At the site of the Edgewood, Kentucky. According
Speaker 1: to media accounts, the car was hoisted from Edgewood, Kentucky,
Speaker 1: went across state lines and they were sitting in that
Speaker 1: parking lot and the police roll up because there was
Speaker 1: a tracker on the Kia. And at that point these
Speaker 1: four individuals knew exactly what was going to happen next.
Speaker 1: They were going to be arrested unless they unless they ran.
Speaker 1: It's a wooded area East Price Hill, not much wooded
Speaker 1: area and East Price Ill, but there was one here
Speaker 1: with the condo projects. Three of the individuals got out
Speaker 1: of the car and ran toward the woods, leaving the
Speaker 1: dumpsters alone, which might be an area that could be
Speaker 1: a firing position for someone with a weapon. There was
Speaker 1: one of the four by the way, There was two
Speaker 1: guns in the car. The one was left behind but
Speaker 1: Ryan Hinton picked up a nine millimeter with an extended mag.
Speaker 1: He got out of the car, reached back in and
Speaker 1: grabbed the gun. That's number one. The cops are there,
Speaker 1: the sirens are on, the lights are on. Number two.
Speaker 1: He took about four steps and fell. Some said he
Speaker 1: the extended mag hit his hip and he lost his
Speaker 1: balance or whatever, and he fell and then the gun
Speaker 1: was separate and apart from his body. And that's when
Speaker 1: officers started yelling gun, gun gun. Not the one who
Speaker 1: did the shooting, by the way, but he heard I'm
Speaker 1: sure he heard gun gun. They were yelling gun gun gun.
Speaker 1: And then Ryan Hinton secondly picked up that nine millimeter.
Speaker 1: Instead of running away with his with his brothers in crime,
Speaker 1: he decided to pick it up and run between two dumpsters.
Speaker 1: He's the only one that did that. I would say,
Speaker 1: to get a firing position. And is he exited the
Speaker 1: dumpster within two seconds of saying gun, gun gun. The
Speaker 1: officers who did the shooting looked into his hands quickly
Speaker 1: and they drew their service weapons because of gun, gun gun.
Speaker 1: It was going to be an ugly situation. And Ryan
Speaker 1: Hinton kind of ran parallel or a little bit left
Speaker 1: toward the officer then took a step to the right
Speaker 1: kind of break down from a law enforcement angle, why
Speaker 1: that would be a justified shooting.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, Willy, I mean, you touched on
Speaker 2: a lot of very important topics, right There are very
Speaker 2: important facts when it comes to reviewing the decision that
Speaker 2: this police officer made to use dead leaf force. But
Speaker 2: I want to start with one thing that hardly no
Speaker 2: one is talking about right now, and that's the rampant
Speaker 2: car thefts that are going on right now. The thieving
Speaker 2: of cars is at a plague status right now. It's
Speaker 2: every single day, not just in northern Kentucky, but all
Speaker 2: Greater Cincinnati because a lot of the car thefts that
Speaker 2: we are seeing are stolen cars that are coming across
Speaker 2: the river to northern Kentucky and they're being dumped over here,
Speaker 2: or they're running from the police over here, and then
Speaker 2: there's as soon as they ditch the car on this
Speaker 2: side of the river, they steal somebody's car on this
Speaker 2: side of the river and ride it back into Ohio.
Speaker 2: And then you know, situations just like this are routine now.
Speaker 2: Part of the problem, I think stems from the fact
Speaker 2: that the community I guess I would blame it largely
Speaker 2: on the media, but certainly the community is starting to
Speaker 2: expect police to not chase car thieves. And I can't
Speaker 2: tell you how many times I see police chases that
Speaker 2: have been terminated or re police reports about chases that
Speaker 2: were terminated, because in large part, every time anything goes
Speaker 2: wrong with the police chase, whether it's a crash or
Speaker 2: god forbid, somebody gets hurt, the media is instead of
Speaker 2: saying why was this person running or why did this
Speaker 2: person steal a car, they're asking why were the police
Speaker 2: chasing this car thief? And if As a result, police
Speaker 2: obviously they don't like the criticism, so they've started adopting
Speaker 2: policies of not getting in vehicle pursuits. And as a result,
Speaker 2: the criminals know that they see the police terminate the
Speaker 2: police chase when they're in a stolen vehicle, they see
Speaker 2: them shut off the emergency lights, they see them do
Speaker 2: a U turn as they get on the bridge, and
Speaker 2: they know they're not going to chase them into Ohio,
Speaker 2: or they know they're not going to chase them into Kentucky.
Speaker 2: So not only do they steal more vehicles, but they
Speaker 2: tell all their felling car stealing friends. Hey, the police
Speaker 2: aren't going to chase this anymore. If you're in a
Speaker 2: stolen vehicle, just don't stop and I'll keep running, you know,
Speaker 2: keep running, and all you got to do is get
Speaker 2: to the river and you're Scott three. And that's that
Speaker 2: is part of the plague that we have seen all
Speaker 2: across probably the country, but certainly the greater Cincinnati area.
Speaker 2: This is the problem that is continuing to grow, and
Speaker 2: it's only getting worse, and it's going to result in
Speaker 2: more situations just like this one that ended in the
Speaker 2: death of this eighteen year old. But first thing you
Speaker 2: got to ask after the stolen car issue, The first
Speaker 2: thing you got to ask, what are they doing in
Speaker 2: a stolen car? Then you got to ask why are
Speaker 2: their guns in the car? Then you got to ask
Speaker 2: what's the reason if you know that the police are
Speaker 2: rolling up and you're sitting in a stolen car, run
Speaker 2: because you don't get arrested. I don't advise that, but
Speaker 2: I certainly understand that thinking. But if you're not intending
Speaker 2: to shoot it out with the police, leave the gun
Speaker 2: in the car, especially in this case, as you've said,
Speaker 2: he apparently went back for the gun. I've not seen
Speaker 2: that yet, But if he in fact went back to
Speaker 2: the car for the gun, that's a big indication in
Speaker 2: my mind that he intends to use the gun. The
Speaker 2: extended magazine that was in the gun certainly makes you
Speaker 2: wonder why does he need an extended magazine. He's using
Speaker 2: a magazine that's too long for the frame of the gun,
Speaker 2: so it sticks out the bottom. The only reason to
Speaker 2: have a magazine like that is if you intend to
Speaker 2: fire more shots than the gun is designed to hold.
Speaker 2: Then he once he gets out of the car, if
Speaker 2: he falls and drops the gun and picks it up
Speaker 2: again again, you already know the police are there. You
Speaker 2: already know that they are coming after you. The only
Speaker 2: reason to pick up that gun is if you intend
Speaker 2: to shoot it out with police. Now, the part of
Speaker 2: the body camera that I have seen, and I admittedly
Speaker 2: have not seen all the body cams from start to finish.
Speaker 2: I've only seen what's been put in the media because
Speaker 2: I don't it's not my case. I don't have access
Speaker 2: to it. But we have to remember that decisions on
Speaker 2: all humans are made in fractions of a second, and
Speaker 2: usually it's an accepted figure in law enforcement circles. That
Speaker 2: it takes about a quarter of a second for a
Speaker 2: gun to go from down to point it at someone,
Speaker 2: It takes about the same amount of time for a
Speaker 2: police officer to decide, my life is in danger, I
Speaker 2: need to pull the trigger. She have to think that
Speaker 2: when this kid is running in between these dumpsters and
Speaker 2: the police officers running at an angle to intercept him.
Speaker 2: Even though with the very last fraction of a second
Speaker 2: he changed directions to where he was headed at least
Speaker 2: at an angle that would have been away from the officer,
Speaker 2: not towards the officer, he is still just before that
Speaker 2: decision closed the distance between himself and the police officer.
Speaker 2: When you're closing the distance, in other words, coming towards
Speaker 2: the officer, the officer has that much less time to react,
Speaker 2: and reaction time is hard enough to deal with that
Speaker 2: as it is, but as that time gets smaller and smaller,
Speaker 2: police have less and less time to decide whether or
Speaker 2: not they feel the need to protect their own life. So,
Speaker 2: in all likelihood, the decision of the officer to pull
Speaker 2: the trigger and the decision the teenager to change angles
Speaker 2: of flight happened at about the same time. But those
Speaker 2: decisions take place in a fraction of a second, and
Speaker 2: unfortunately we see a tragic outcome when the young man
Speaker 2: lost his life. But I'm not ready to say that
Speaker 2: it was the wrong decision on the police officer by
Speaker 2: any stretch of the imagination. Because he still had a
Speaker 2: subject fleeing from a stolen car with a loaded firearm
Speaker 2: closing the distance between him and the officer. That officer
Speaker 2: does not have to wait until he is shot. He
Speaker 2: doesn't even have to wait till the gun is pointed
Speaker 2: at him in order for that to be a valid
Speaker 2: threat to that officer's life, because, like I said, it
Speaker 2: only takes a quarter of a second for that gun
Speaker 2: to go from pointed down or pointed some other direct
Speaker 2: then that the officer to point it at the officer,
Speaker 2: and it's the triggers being fired when it comes at
Speaker 2: the officer and he hasn't fired first, then he doesn't
Speaker 2: get time to react. And if that bullet hits him
Speaker 2: in the head or in the neck, or some other
Speaker 2: important artery in his body that's not covered by his
Speaker 2: bulletproof vest, he doesn't get to go home to his
Speaker 2: wife and kids. So the notion of do not fire
Speaker 2: until fired upon is something that you see in a
Speaker 2: top gun movie, but it's not real life for police
Speaker 2: officers who are out there risking their lives for a
Speaker 2: community on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: Next week, here's the issue that's going to arise, and
Speaker 1: that is that the statement he made, the police officer
Speaker 1: from Cincinnati made to the police and many times ken
Speaker 1: Kober and others tell them that's way three to four days,
Speaker 1: but the officers decided within a day or two to
Speaker 1: make a statement. And according to ken Kober, the statement
Speaker 1: seemed to be he was about ten feet away and
Speaker 1: that the gun was pointed at the cop. It appears
Speaker 1: that appears, and I use the word appears, put it
Speaker 1: in capital letters, that the gun may not have been
Speaker 1: pointed at the cop. But is that and therefore he
Speaker 1: was running away with the gun? Now is that important
Speaker 1: if the officer in the heat of the moment, within
Speaker 1: a quarter of a second, a cop doesn't have to
Speaker 1: get shot before you can return fire. And so called
Speaker 1: activists may seize upon that point of a misstatement by
Speaker 1: a police officer. Is that relevant to you as a prosecutor.
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's relevant. Any of that words are important
Speaker 2: in this business. Will he so it's relevant, it's something
Speaker 2: to consider it, sure, But the officer's relaying his recollection
Speaker 2: of what he saw, and if that gun barrel crossed
Speaker 2: his path, in other words, if that gun barrel was
Speaker 2: pointed at him at any point in time in again,
Speaker 2: what a second, maybe two seconds between when that young
Speaker 2: man came into view and when the officer decided to
Speaker 2: fire his weapon, was the gun barrel pointed to at
Speaker 2: him at the time that he actually pulled the trigger,
Speaker 2: or that the teenager actually got shot. Maybe not, or
Speaker 2: it doesn't appear so from it, But again, we're talking
Speaker 2: about changes that happen in a fraction of a second.
Speaker 2: We've seen all different kinds of cases, both locally and nationally,
Speaker 2: where someone points a gun at a police officer and
Speaker 2: then turns to run away, but the officer's already made
Speaker 2: the decision to pull the trigger, and so the bullet
Speaker 2: ends up hitting the person in their side or hitting
Speaker 2: the person in their back. It doesn't mean it's a
Speaker 2: bad shoot. What matters is not where the bullet hit.
Speaker 2: What matters is was the person posing a threat to
Speaker 2: the officer's life, And anybody coming out a police officer
Speaker 2: with a gun is a threat regardless of where that
Speaker 2: gun is pointed. That I don't know. I think that's
Speaker 2: something that's been driven home maybe by questions that people
Speaker 2: in the media ask, like where was the gun pointed?
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter where is the gun pointed in point
Speaker 2: two five of a second, you know, a quarter of
Speaker 2: a second. By the way, will if anybody out there
Speaker 2: wants to figure out how long a quarter of a
Speaker 2: second is, blink your eyes, because it takes you about
Speaker 2: a quarter of a second to blink your eyes. That's
Speaker 2: about how much time officers have to react when someone
Speaker 2: goes to point a gun at them. So I certainly understand,
Speaker 2: you know, we pay these officers to go into dangerous
Speaker 2: situations so the average citizens like you and me don't
Speaker 2: have to. But if I was one of those officers
Speaker 2: in those dangerous situations right that we've asked them to
Speaker 2: be in, I'm not going to wait until I am
Speaker 2: actually shot before I'd depend my life.
Speaker 1: And thank god we have body cams because without that,
Speaker 1: I can imagine what the activists, what social media would
Speaker 1: be doing with this if we didn't have a body cam.
Speaker 1: And when these first came out about seven eight years ago,
Speaker 1: law enforcement didn't like it. It's turned out to be
Speaker 1: the best thing for law enforcement imaginable. Lastly, you have
Speaker 1: about a minute remaining. Edgewood, Kentucky, as you may know,
Speaker 1: is in Kenton County. You had three individuals, depending upon
Speaker 1: what the fact patter is, stealing cars to Kenton County
Speaker 1: getting into Ohio County. Are you pursuing any investigation for
Speaker 1: Austin and Bullicks and Grace gregsby the three eighteen and
Speaker 1: nineteen year olds that were with Hinton stealing the car.
Speaker 1: If the facts turn out to be that case, is
Speaker 1: that something you're interested in pursuing or not.
Speaker 2: It's certainly something if there's proof out there that it
Speaker 2: came out out of Edgewood. Really that's news to me.
Speaker 2: By the way, nobody's brought that case to me. Cincinnati
Speaker 2: Police have not presented reports to me or anything like that.
Speaker 2: But we pursue cases weekly where somebody steals a car
Speaker 2: in Kenton County and drives it over to Ohio and
Speaker 2: gets caught. We don't just leave it up to Ohio
Speaker 2: to do something to bring justice for the victim of
Speaker 2: that car theft in Kenton County. We filed charges over here.
Speaker 2: I've already issued one arrest warrant earlier this week for
Speaker 2: somebody doing the exact same thing. But that's definitely something
Speaker 2: that we would pursue if we have evidence to establish
Speaker 2: probable cause that there was a felony theft in Kenton County. Obviously,
Speaker 2: there's certain elements of that offense that would have to
Speaker 2: be met. We'd have to be able to prove they
Speaker 2: actually stole the car here, not that they just found
Speaker 2: it over in Ohio somewhere. We'd have to prove that
Speaker 2: the car was over one thousand dollars. But if we
Speaker 2: can establish those things, you know, we still prosecute criminals
Speaker 2: in Kenton County, Willie. I know that's a novel concept
Speaker 2: compared to some jurisdictions in this country, but I assure
Speaker 2: you in Kenton County we still pursue all felony offenses
Speaker 2: whenever we have enough evidence to go forward.
Speaker 1: Rob Sanders, thank you for your expertise up against the clock.
Speaker 1: We'll do it again next week as things develop, but
Speaker 1: I have positive information that this is something that will
Speaker 1: be pursued seriously by the New Hamley County prosecutor. Let's
Speaker 1: see what happens, and Rob Sanders, once again, thank you
Speaker 1: for coming on the Bill Cunningham Show, and we'll do
Speaker 1: it again.
Speaker 2: Thanks Ron Willie. I look forward to it, and hopefully
Speaker 2: you can give me an update on a Hunter Green
Speaker 2: by the next time we talk, because I was a
Speaker 2: little concerned about that last night.
Speaker 1: Me too, But hopefully it's a week or two and
Speaker 1: that's it because we need him like a duck needs water.
Speaker 1: So certainly hope Hunter Green is fine. But Rob Sanders,
Speaker 1: thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Sounds good.
Speaker 1: Will you have a great day, Billy Cunningham, Let's continue
Speaker 1: with more. It's good to get the expertise of Rob
Speaker 1: Sanders involved in this, and that may be an issue
Speaker 1: down the road. A little bit about where was the
Speaker 1: barrel pointed, he had the gun, he had the intent
Speaker 1: to use it, and whatever happens when you have a
Speaker 1: gun and with police involved, it's not a good situation
Speaker 1: for the future. Decedent Bill Cunningham, News Radio seven hundred woow.
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