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<v Speaker 1>Bye, Billy cunning end the Great America. Welcome this Thursday

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<v Speaker 1>afternoon of the tries date the events and involving the

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<v Speaker 1>funeral of Deputy Sheriff Larry Henderson. Will be on the way.

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<v Speaker 1>Later on we're going to have a guest on to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about the particulars. But until then, joining you and

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<v Speaker 1>I now, who is the Kent County Prosecutor, Rob Sanders?

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<v Speaker 1>And Rob Sanders, welcome again to the Bill Cunningham Shaw.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to get you on to talk about the

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<v Speaker 1>Boone County case and the police shooting. But before we

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<v Speaker 1>get to that point, you've been at this for about

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<v Speaker 1>twenty or thirty years, Prosecutor. I think Connie Pilich is

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<v Speaker 1>new and we anticipate she'll do what's right down the

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<v Speaker 1>road in this case. Relative to Rodney Hinton, who is

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<v Speaker 1>the father who purposely killed a police officer. Is there

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<v Speaker 1>something in Kent County City of Covington. I talked to

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<v Speaker 1>cops and Borrow Ohio. I spoke to one in Blue

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<v Speaker 1>Ash who says their heads are on a swivel right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Social media is a buzz with the issue of the

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<v Speaker 1>funeral activity starting at four four o'clock today, Whether there'll

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<v Speaker 1>be some activist I call them murderers who may want

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<v Speaker 1>to kill more cops by using their car as battering rams.

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<v Speaker 1>The cops are in turmoil. How would you describe the

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<v Speaker 1>mental emotional state of police in the city of Covington.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Willie, I think, first of all, thanks for having

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<v Speaker 2>me back on. It's been a few weeks, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>always it's always good to be back on your show.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know what a I guess tense time for

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<v Speaker 2>lack of a better term, and I think that tension

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<v Speaker 2>is spelt all the way across on the south side

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<v Speaker 2>of the river. I think that having heads on a

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<v Speaker 2>swivel is probably a good thing for police right now,

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<v Speaker 2>because even though we support our police in northern Kentucky

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<v Speaker 2>and we back the blue one hundred and ten percent

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<v Speaker 2>all the time and every way we can, I think

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<v Speaker 2>they still know that there is a different climate going

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<v Speaker 2>on on the north side of the river, and we

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<v Speaker 2>never know when the problems on the north side are

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<v Speaker 2>going to bleed across the river on to the south side,

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<v Speaker 2>and certainly we don't want any of those problems. We

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<v Speaker 2>don't want anybody attacking our police like we saw in Hamilton. County,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's certainly a possibility. So heads on a swivel

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<v Speaker 2>is probably a good thing. I think the officers on

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<v Speaker 2>the south side of the river, it just makes them

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<v Speaker 2>appreciate that much more how much better it is to

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<v Speaker 2>work in a law enforcement friendly community like we have

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<v Speaker 2>and throughout nord of Kentucky, not just Kenton County, but

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<v Speaker 2>Boone Campbell County as well, and the furthest south you

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<v Speaker 2>get in northern Kentucky. You know, it doesn't change. It

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<v Speaker 2>stays very much pro police throughout the commonwealth, really especially

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<v Speaker 2>the north end of the Commonwealth. But that said, Willie,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I think that all officers have an eye

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<v Speaker 2>across the river and what's going on. I think that

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<v Speaker 2>they feel the tension, and certainly they sympathize with the

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<v Speaker 2>officers in Hamilton County and southern Ohio, and they know

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<v Speaker 2>what they're going through and they share in that anxiety

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<v Speaker 2>that those officers have to be feeling. Right now, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this Hamilton County Sheriff's deputy was doing nothing but directing

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<v Speaker 2>traffic for graduation, something that should have been a happy occasion.

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<v Speaker 2>Wasn't even his agency that was involved in the police

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<v Speaker 2>shooting a day earlier, and yet he paid the price

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<v Speaker 2>when this murderer just flat out attacked him and killed

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<v Speaker 2>him in cold blood. And we are at a crossroads,

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<v Speaker 2>I think for the new prosecutor's office. As you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 2>I've been doing this for almost two decades now. Next

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<v Speaker 2>year will be my twentieth year. I think the one

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<v Speaker 2>thing that I can say about law enforcement in one

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<v Speaker 2>of Kentucky is they know me well and they know

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<v Speaker 2>what my decisions would be. If this case had happened,

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<v Speaker 2>this attack on this police officer had happened in Kenton County,

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<v Speaker 2>nobody would be asking questions about what the charges would

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<v Speaker 2>be or whether or not the death penalty would be pursued.

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<v Speaker 2>That I have a track record of going to trial

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<v Speaker 2>and protecting our police officers in the dangerous work that

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<v Speaker 2>they do. Anytime someone is foolish enough to attack them,

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<v Speaker 2>our police officers in this community know that we will

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<v Speaker 2>be coming down hard on any of those offenders. And

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<v Speaker 2>that certainly would be the case, and I'm hopeful it'll

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<v Speaker 2>be the same in Hamilton County. But this is a

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<v Speaker 2>defining moment, I think for the new Hamilton County prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 2>All eyes are upon her office.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's break down what the so called activists are saying,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is that there was an execution of the

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen year old Ryan Hinton by Cincinnati police. The names

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<v Speaker 1>not in the media. The officer involved as a veteran,

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<v Speaker 1>he's been at it for a long time. The officer

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<v Speaker 1>who actually shot Ryan Hinton because of his behavior, is

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<v Speaker 1>well respected. At the site of the Edgewood, Kentucky. According

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<v Speaker 1>to media accounts, the car was hoisted from Edgewood, Kentucky,

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<v Speaker 1>went across state lines and they were sitting in that

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<v Speaker 1>parking lot and the police roll up because there was

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<v Speaker 1>a tracker on the Kia. And at that point these

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<v Speaker 1>four individuals knew exactly what was going to happen next.

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<v Speaker 1>They were going to be arrested unless they unless they ran.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a wooded area East Price Hill, not much wooded

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<v Speaker 1>area and East Price Ill, but there was one here

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<v Speaker 1>with the condo projects. Three of the individuals got out

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<v Speaker 1>of the car and ran toward the woods, leaving the

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<v Speaker 1>dumpsters alone, which might be an area that could be

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<v Speaker 1>a firing position for someone with a weapon. There was

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<v Speaker 1>one of the four by the way, There was two

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<v Speaker 1>guns in the car. The one was left behind but

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<v Speaker 1>Ryan Hinton picked up a nine millimeter with an extended mag.

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<v Speaker 1>He got out of the car, reached back in and

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<v Speaker 1>grabbed the gun. That's number one. The cops are there,

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<v Speaker 1>the sirens are on, the lights are on. Number two.

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<v Speaker 1>He took about four steps and fell. Some said he

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<v Speaker 1>the extended mag hit his hip and he lost his

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<v Speaker 1>balance or whatever, and he fell and then the gun

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<v Speaker 1>was separate and apart from his body. And that's when

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<v Speaker 1>officers started yelling gun, gun gun. Not the one who

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<v Speaker 1>did the shooting, by the way, but he heard I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sure he heard gun gun. They were yelling gun gun gun.

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<v Speaker 1>And then Ryan Hinton secondly picked up that nine millimeter.

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<v Speaker 1>Instead of running away with his with his brothers in crime,

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<v Speaker 1>he decided to pick it up and run between two dumpsters.

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<v Speaker 1>He's the only one that did that. I would say,

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<v Speaker 1>to get a firing position. And is he exited the

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<v Speaker 1>dumpster within two seconds of saying gun, gun gun. The

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<v Speaker 1>officers who did the shooting looked into his hands quickly

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<v Speaker 1>and they drew their service weapons because of gun, gun gun.

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<v Speaker 1>It was going to be an ugly situation. And Ryan

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<v Speaker 1>Hinton kind of ran parallel or a little bit left

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<v Speaker 1>toward the officer then took a step to the right

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<v Speaker 1>kind of break down from a law enforcement angle, why

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<v Speaker 1>that would be a justified shooting.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, first of all, Willy, I mean, you touched on

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of very important topics, right There are very

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<v Speaker 2>important facts when it comes to reviewing the decision that

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<v Speaker 2>this police officer made to use dead leaf force. But

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<v Speaker 2>I want to start with one thing that hardly no

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<v Speaker 2>one is talking about right now, and that's the rampant

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<v Speaker 2>car thefts that are going on right now. The thieving

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<v Speaker 2>of cars is at a plague status right now. It's

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<v Speaker 2>every single day, not just in northern Kentucky, but all

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<v Speaker 2>Greater Cincinnati because a lot of the car thefts that

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<v Speaker 2>we are seeing are stolen cars that are coming across

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<v Speaker 2>the river to northern Kentucky and they're being dumped over here,

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<v Speaker 2>or they're running from the police over here, and then

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<v Speaker 2>there's as soon as they ditch the car on this

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<v Speaker 2>side of the river, they steal somebody's car on this

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<v Speaker 2>side of the river and ride it back into Ohio.

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<v Speaker 2>And then you know, situations just like this are routine now.

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<v Speaker 2>Part of the problem, I think stems from the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that the community I guess I would blame it largely

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<v Speaker 2>on the media, but certainly the community is starting to

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<v Speaker 2>expect police to not chase car thieves. And I can't

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<v Speaker 2>tell you how many times I see police chases that

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<v Speaker 2>have been terminated or re police reports about chases that

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<v Speaker 2>were terminated, because in large part, every time anything goes

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<v Speaker 2>wrong with the police chase, whether it's a crash or

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<v Speaker 2>god forbid, somebody gets hurt, the media is instead of

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<v Speaker 2>saying why was this person running or why did this

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<v Speaker 2>person steal a car, they're asking why were the police

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<v Speaker 2>chasing this car thief? And if As a result, police

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<v Speaker 2>obviously they don't like the criticism, so they've started adopting

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<v Speaker 2>policies of not getting in vehicle pursuits. And as a result,

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<v Speaker 2>the criminals know that they see the police terminate the

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<v Speaker 2>police chase when they're in a stolen vehicle, they see

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<v Speaker 2>them shut off the emergency lights, they see them do

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<v Speaker 2>a U turn as they get on the bridge, and

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<v Speaker 2>they know they're not going to chase them into Ohio,

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<v Speaker 2>or they know they're not going to chase them into Kentucky.

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<v Speaker 2>So not only do they steal more vehicles, but they

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<v Speaker 2>tell all their felling car stealing friends. Hey, the police

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<v Speaker 2>aren't going to chase this anymore. If you're in a

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<v Speaker 2>stolen vehicle, just don't stop and I'll keep running, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>keep running, and all you got to do is get

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<v Speaker 2>to the river and you're Scott three. And that's that

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<v Speaker 2>is part of the plague that we have seen all

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<v Speaker 2>across probably the country, but certainly the greater Cincinnati area.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the problem that is continuing to grow, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's only getting worse, and it's going to result in

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<v Speaker 2>more situations just like this one that ended in the

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<v Speaker 2>death of this eighteen year old. But first thing you

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<v Speaker 2>got to ask after the stolen car issue, The first

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<v Speaker 2>thing you got to ask, what are they doing in

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<v Speaker 2>a stolen car? Then you got to ask why are

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<v Speaker 2>their guns in the car? Then you got to ask

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<v Speaker 2>what's the reason if you know that the police are

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<v Speaker 2>rolling up and you're sitting in a stolen car, run

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<v Speaker 2>because you don't get arrested. I don't advise that, but

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<v Speaker 2>I certainly understand that thinking. But if you're not intending

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<v Speaker 2>to shoot it out with the police, leave the gun

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<v Speaker 2>in the car, especially in this case, as you've said,

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<v Speaker 2>he apparently went back for the gun. I've not seen

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<v Speaker 2>that yet, But if he in fact went back to

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<v Speaker 2>the car for the gun, that's a big indication in

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<v Speaker 2>my mind that he intends to use the gun. The

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<v Speaker 2>extended magazine that was in the gun certainly makes you

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<v Speaker 2>wonder why does he need an extended magazine. He's using

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<v Speaker 2>a magazine that's too long for the frame of the gun,

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<v Speaker 2>so it sticks out the bottom. The only reason to

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<v Speaker 2>have a magazine like that is if you intend to

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<v Speaker 2>fire more shots than the gun is designed to hold.

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<v Speaker 2>Then he once he gets out of the car, if

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<v Speaker 2>he falls and drops the gun and picks it up

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<v Speaker 2>again again, you already know the police are there. You

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<v Speaker 2>already know that they are coming after you. The only

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<v Speaker 2>reason to pick up that gun is if you intend

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<v Speaker 2>to shoot it out with police. Now, the part of

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<v Speaker 2>the body camera that I have seen, and I admittedly

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<v Speaker 2>have not seen all the body cams from start to finish.

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<v Speaker 2>I've only seen what's been put in the media because

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<v Speaker 2>I don't it's not my case. I don't have access

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<v Speaker 2>to it. But we have to remember that decisions on

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<v Speaker 2>all humans are made in fractions of a second, and

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<v Speaker 2>usually it's an accepted figure in law enforcement circles. That

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<v Speaker 2>it takes about a quarter of a second for a

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<v Speaker 2>gun to go from down to point it at someone,

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<v Speaker 2>It takes about the same amount of time for a

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<v Speaker 2>police officer to decide, my life is in danger, I

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<v Speaker 2>need to pull the trigger. She have to think that

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<v Speaker 2>when this kid is running in between these dumpsters and

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<v Speaker 2>the police officers running at an angle to intercept him.

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<v Speaker 2>Even though with the very last fraction of a second

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<v Speaker 2>he changed directions to where he was headed at least

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<v Speaker 2>at an angle that would have been away from the officer,

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<v Speaker 2>not towards the officer, he is still just before that

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<v Speaker 2>decision closed the distance between himself and the police officer.

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<v Speaker 2>When you're closing the distance, in other words, coming towards

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<v Speaker 2>the officer, the officer has that much less time to react,

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<v Speaker 2>and reaction time is hard enough to deal with that

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<v Speaker 2>as it is, but as that time gets smaller and smaller,

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<v Speaker 2>police have less and less time to decide whether or

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<v Speaker 2>not they feel the need to protect their own life. So,

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<v Speaker 2>in all likelihood, the decision of the officer to pull

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<v Speaker 2>the trigger and the decision the teenager to change angles

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<v Speaker 2>of flight happened at about the same time. But those

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<v Speaker 2>decisions take place in a fraction of a second, and

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<v Speaker 2>unfortunately we see a tragic outcome when the young man

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<v Speaker 2>lost his life. But I'm not ready to say that

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<v Speaker 2>it was the wrong decision on the police officer by

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<v Speaker 2>any stretch of the imagination. Because he still had a

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<v Speaker 2>subject fleeing from a stolen car with a loaded firearm

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<v Speaker 2>closing the distance between him and the officer. That officer

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<v Speaker 2>does not have to wait until he is shot. He

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't even have to wait till the gun is pointed

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<v Speaker 2>at him in order for that to be a valid

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<v Speaker 2>threat to that officer's life, because, like I said, it

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<v Speaker 2>only takes a quarter of a second for that gun

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<v Speaker 2>to go from pointed down or pointed some other direct

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<v Speaker 2>then that the officer to point it at the officer,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's the triggers being fired when it comes at

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<v Speaker 2>the officer and he hasn't fired first, then he doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>get time to react. And if that bullet hits him

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<v Speaker 2>in the head or in the neck, or some other

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<v Speaker 2>important artery in his body that's not covered by his

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<v Speaker 2>bulletproof vest, he doesn't get to go home to his

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<v Speaker 2>wife and kids. So the notion of do not fire

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<v Speaker 2>until fired upon is something that you see in a

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<v Speaker 2>top gun movie, but it's not real life for police

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<v Speaker 2>officers who are out there risking their lives for a

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<v Speaker 2>community on a daily basis.

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<v Speaker 1>Next week, here's the issue that's going to arise, and

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<v Speaker 1>that is that the statement he made, the police officer

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<v Speaker 1>from Cincinnati made to the police and many times ken

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<v Speaker 1>Kober and others tell them that's way three to four days,

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<v Speaker 1>but the officers decided within a day or two to

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<v Speaker 1>make a statement. And according to ken Kober, the statement

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<v Speaker 1>seemed to be he was about ten feet away and

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<v Speaker 1>that the gun was pointed at the cop. It appears

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<v Speaker 1>that appears, and I use the word appears, put it

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<v Speaker 1>in capital letters, that the gun may not have been

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<v Speaker 1>pointed at the cop. But is that and therefore he

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<v Speaker 1>was running away with the gun? Now is that important

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<v Speaker 1>if the officer in the heat of the moment, within

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<v Speaker 1>a quarter of a second, a cop doesn't have to

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<v Speaker 1>get shot before you can return fire. And so called

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<v Speaker 1>activists may seize upon that point of a misstatement by

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<v Speaker 1>a police officer. Is that relevant to you as a prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure it's relevant. Any of that words are important

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<v Speaker 2>in this business. Will he so it's relevant, it's something

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<v Speaker 2>to consider it, sure, But the officer's relaying his recollection

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<v Speaker 2>of what he saw, and if that gun barrel crossed

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<v Speaker 2>his path, in other words, if that gun barrel was

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<v Speaker 2>pointed at him at any point in time in again,

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<v Speaker 2>what a second, maybe two seconds between when that young

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<v Speaker 2>man came into view and when the officer decided to

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<v Speaker 2>fire his weapon, was the gun barrel pointed to at

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<v Speaker 2>him at the time that he actually pulled the trigger,

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<v Speaker 2>or that the teenager actually got shot. Maybe not, or

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't appear so from it, But again, we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about changes that happen in a fraction of a second.

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<v Speaker 2>We've seen all different kinds of cases, both locally and nationally,

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<v Speaker 2>where someone points a gun at a police officer and

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<v Speaker 2>then turns to run away, but the officer's already made

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<v Speaker 2>the decision to pull the trigger, and so the bullet

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<v Speaker 2>ends up hitting the person in their side or hitting

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<v Speaker 2>the person in their back. It doesn't mean it's a

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<v Speaker 2>bad shoot. What matters is not where the bullet hit.

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<v Speaker 2>What matters is was the person posing a threat to

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<v Speaker 2>the officer's life, And anybody coming out a police officer

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<v Speaker 2>with a gun is a threat regardless of where that

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<v Speaker 2>gun is pointed. That I don't know. I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>something that's been driven home maybe by questions that people

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<v Speaker 2>in the media ask, like where was the gun pointed?

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't matter where is the gun pointed in point

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<v Speaker 2>two five of a second, you know, a quarter of

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<v Speaker 2>a second. By the way, will if anybody out there

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<v Speaker 2>wants to figure out how long a quarter of a

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<v Speaker 2>second is, blink your eyes, because it takes you about

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<v Speaker 2>a quarter of a second to blink your eyes. That's

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<v Speaker 2>about how much time officers have to react when someone

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<v Speaker 2>goes to point a gun at them. So I certainly understand,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we pay these officers to go into dangerous

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<v Speaker 2>situations so the average citizens like you and me don't

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<v Speaker 2>have to. But if I was one of those officers

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<v Speaker 2>in those dangerous situations right that we've asked them to

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<v Speaker 2>be in, I'm not going to wait until I am

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<v Speaker 2>actually shot before I'd depend my life.

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<v Speaker 1>And thank god we have body cams because without that,

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<v Speaker 1>I can imagine what the activists, what social media would

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<v Speaker 1>be doing with this if we didn't have a body cam.

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<v Speaker 1>And when these first came out about seven eight years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement didn't like it. It's turned out to be

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<v Speaker 1>the best thing for law enforcement imaginable. Lastly, you have

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<v Speaker 1>about a minute remaining. Edgewood, Kentucky, as you may know,

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<v Speaker 1>is in Kenton County. You had three individuals, depending upon

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<v Speaker 1>what the fact patter is, stealing cars to Kenton County

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<v Speaker 1>getting into Ohio County. Are you pursuing any investigation for

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<v Speaker 1>Austin and Bullicks and Grace gregsby the three eighteen and

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen year olds that were with Hinton stealing the car.

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<v Speaker 1>If the facts turn out to be that case, is

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<v Speaker 1>that something you're interested in pursuing or not.

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<v Speaker 2>It's certainly something if there's proof out there that it

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<v Speaker 2>came out out of Edgewood. Really that's news to me.

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<v Speaker 2>By the way, nobody's brought that case to me. Cincinnati

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<v Speaker 2>Police have not presented reports to me or anything like that.

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<v Speaker 2>But we pursue cases weekly where somebody steals a car

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<v Speaker 2>in Kenton County and drives it over to Ohio and

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<v Speaker 2>gets caught. We don't just leave it up to Ohio

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<v Speaker 2>to do something to bring justice for the victim of

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<v Speaker 2>that car theft in Kenton County. We filed charges over here.

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<v Speaker 2>I've already issued one arrest warrant earlier this week for

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<v Speaker 2>somebody doing the exact same thing. But that's definitely something

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<v Speaker 2>that we would pursue if we have evidence to establish

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<v Speaker 2>probable cause that there was a felony theft in Kenton County. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>there's certain elements of that offense that would have to

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<v Speaker 2>be met. We'd have to be able to prove they

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<v Speaker 2>actually stole the car here, not that they just found

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<v Speaker 2>it over in Ohio somewhere. We'd have to prove that

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<v Speaker 2>the car was over one thousand dollars. But if we

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<v Speaker 2>can establish those things, you know, we still prosecute criminals

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<v Speaker 2>in Kenton County, Willie. I know that's a novel concept

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<v Speaker 2>compared to some jurisdictions in this country, but I assure

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<v Speaker 2>you in Kenton County we still pursue all felony offenses

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<v Speaker 2>whenever we have enough evidence to go forward.

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<v Speaker 1>Rob Sanders, thank you for your expertise up against the clock.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll do it again next week as things develop, but

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<v Speaker 1>I have positive information that this is something that will

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<v Speaker 1>be pursued seriously by the New Hamley County prosecutor. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>see what happens, and Rob Sanders, once again, thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for coming on the Bill Cunningham Show, and we'll do

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<v Speaker 1>it again.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks Ron Willie. I look forward to it, and hopefully

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<v Speaker 2>you can give me an update on a Hunter Green

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<v Speaker 2>by the next time we talk, because I was a

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<v Speaker 2>little concerned about that last night.

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<v Speaker 1>Me too, But hopefully it's a week or two and

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<v Speaker 1>that's it because we need him like a duck needs water.

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<v Speaker 1>So certainly hope Hunter Green is fine. But Rob Sanders,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 2>Sounds good.

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<v Speaker 1>Will you have a great day, Billy Cunningham, Let's continue

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<v Speaker 1>with more. It's good to get the expertise of Rob

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<v Speaker 1>Sanders involved in this, and that may be an issue

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<v Speaker 1>down the road. A little bit about where was the

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<v Speaker 1>barrel pointed, he had the gun, he had the intent

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<v Speaker 1>to use it, and whatever happens when you have a

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<v Speaker 1>gun and with police involved, it's not a good situation

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<v Speaker 1>for the future. Decedent Bill Cunningham, News Radio seven hundred woow.

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<v Speaker 1>And by the way, looking a lot left to our right,

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<v Speaker 1>we have white smoke, we have a new pope, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to go to ABC News coverage chair in

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<v Speaker 1>a few minutes and may be anywhere from ten to

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<v Speaker 1>twenty minutes. Thirty minutes from now when the Pope appears

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<v Speaker 1>on the balcony. But nonetheless, we have a new pope.

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<v Speaker 1>We have white smoke. Bill Cunningham News Radio seven hundred

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<v Speaker 1>Wow