1
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,839
Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

2
00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:10,000
an idea.

3
00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,519
Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through the.

4
00:00:13,519 --> 00:00:19,039
Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I

5
00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,559
tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not

6
00:00:22,679 --> 00:00:24,600
because I put my hand on a book and made

7
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,839
a wish and working together for a more rational world.

8
00:00:29,079 --> 00:00:32,359
Speaker 3: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth,

9
00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,719
Usian wisdom will come to you that way.

10
00:00:35,679 --> 00:00:43,520
Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

11
00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:55,960
Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

12
00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,479
Speaker 3: I saw this cartoon and it shows various elements bing

13
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:10,200
crushing darkness, time drags, seemingly no escape inhospitably cold, and

14
00:01:10,359 --> 00:01:13,120
one person says black hole, and the other said, no,

15
00:01:13,519 --> 00:01:17,799
it is just January. And right now, of course, we've

16
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,640
been seeing this historic what meteorologists have been calling a

17
00:01:21,719 --> 00:01:26,680
once in a generation winter storm blasting across the southeast.

18
00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:30,719
It's just been crazy. I'm ready for spring. I don't

19
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:32,640
know about you, but Natalie and I have been waking

20
00:01:32,799 --> 00:01:37,040
up recently and we just brace ourselves. Now we're waiting

21
00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,400
to be force fed the next dose of existential dread.

22
00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,319
What will the algorithm bring us today? What's the headline

23
00:01:46,359 --> 00:01:50,159
going to say today? What fresh hell awaits us today?

24
00:01:51,079 --> 00:01:55,719
And we have been then seeking therapy, distraction, something else

25
00:01:55,799 --> 00:02:00,640
to think about, and we've gotten hooked on this docu

26
00:02:00,719 --> 00:02:05,959
series that is streaming on Prime. It's called The Yorkshire Vet.

27
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,280
And I'll just describe it here while I'm waiting for

28
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,560
the switchboard to populate with calls today, is your calls

29
00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,280
on any subject that you want to talk about? The

30
00:02:14,439 --> 00:02:19,479
Yorkshire Vet. These charming people, doctors and nurses and support

31
00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:24,240
staff at Skelldale Veterinary Center in Thirsk, North Yorkshire. This

32
00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,080
beautiful stretch of land and all kinds of creatures great

33
00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:33,280
and small, treated by the Yorkshire Vets. Someone brings in

34
00:02:33,319 --> 00:02:36,719
a mommy dog that is having trouble delivering puppies, and

35
00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,560
so the vets intervene and before you know it, there's

36
00:02:39,599 --> 00:02:43,319
a table full of puppies. Oh my god, the puppies.

37
00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,039
They're just so freaking cute. Somebody else has a chicken

38
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,759
and the chicken's not properly digesting its food, so they

39
00:02:50,759 --> 00:02:55,560
put this little anesthetic mask on the chicken head and

40
00:02:55,599 --> 00:02:58,120
it goes to sleep, and then they make a little

41
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:03,159
incision and they pull out like two pounds of food

42
00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,199
that just got stuck. I mean, it's fascinating stuff. And

43
00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:09,680
then the chicken wakes up like nothing happened and goes

44
00:03:09,719 --> 00:03:11,759
on with the rest of its day. You have a

45
00:03:11,879 --> 00:03:15,000
kid brings in his pet rat, but the rat is

46
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,520
three times the size it's supposed to be because the

47
00:03:17,599 --> 00:03:23,039
kid's been feeding it essentially candy. So they put the

48
00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,000
rat on a diet and then they monitor the weight

49
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,680
of the rat throughout the show. They bring in baby

50
00:03:28,759 --> 00:03:31,840
goats and have to remove the horns, which you think

51
00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,199
would be traumatic, but it's actually not. In fact, it's fascinating.

52
00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,199
And the beauty of UK medical shows is that they

53
00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,360
don't shy away like in the United States. If we

54
00:03:42,439 --> 00:03:45,840
get anywhere near an incision or blood or private areas,

55
00:03:45,919 --> 00:03:49,240
even on cows and stuff, they just blur everything. But

56
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,479
not in the UK. They just show you everything, for

57
00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,960
better and worse. And as there is death and life

58
00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,520
in the real world, there is death and life in

59
00:03:59,599 --> 00:04:02,919
the show, which adds a little bit of urgency to

60
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000
the cases that come in because you honestly don't know

61
00:04:06,439 --> 00:04:09,400
that everything is going to have a happy ending. Occasionally

62
00:04:09,439 --> 00:04:13,800
it doesn't usually though it does, and we are obsessed.

63
00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,920
We watched three seasons in a week, three seasons of

64
00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:22,439
the Yorkshire Vet. We're so tired we can't even keep

65
00:04:22,439 --> 00:04:24,560
our eyes open, lying in bed with the TV on.

66
00:04:24,639 --> 00:04:29,800
You Let's just watch one more honey, cute sweet animals

67
00:04:29,879 --> 00:04:35,199
being rescued and rehabilitated. That's good medicine. So if you're

68
00:04:35,199 --> 00:04:38,720
looking for a distraction of your own, and you like

69
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,560
critters and the Yorkshire countryside and don't mind seeing the

70
00:04:43,639 --> 00:04:47,720
occasional pile of undigested chicken food, I just want to

71
00:04:47,759 --> 00:04:51,199
throw that recommendation out there. Okay, that's a freebie from

72
00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,120
me and Natalie to you. And now that I've bought

73
00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,560
us some time, let me take us to the switchboard.

74
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,759
I've got Mick on a web call from Australia. Mick,

75
00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:08,680
thanks for calling. What's on your mind?

76
00:05:10,079 --> 00:05:14,120
Speaker 4: I just wanted to have a quick talk about what

77
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,639
I consider God's hypocrisy. God of the Bible, I would

78
00:05:18,759 --> 00:05:22,639
reckon is probably one of the greatest sinners, certainly in

79
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,120
the Old Testament than anyone else ever. And I mean

80
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,879
by that would be the seven deadly sins. So you've

81
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,000
got the seven Deadly sins and the God of the

82
00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,920
Bible constantly commits them NonStop. Now, you and I and

83
00:05:38,959 --> 00:05:41,439
anyone else would probably get their asses thrown in health

84
00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,439
for it, but he keeps doing it all the time.

85
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:49,319
For example, he's constantly brought to Rah. He is envious,

86
00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:54,120
jealous of everyone else, of other gods. He has pride, Well,

87
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,120
there's jealousy straight up as well, and quite a few others.

88
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,240
Speaker 3: What do you think, I think you're onto something. He's

89
00:06:01,319 --> 00:06:03,439
to do as I say, not as I do, God,

90
00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,160
isn't he absolutely?

91
00:06:05,319 --> 00:06:09,680
Speaker 4: Absolutely? I tried looking at a few others. You can

92
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,920
put him down a slice, because for most of the

93
00:06:12,959 --> 00:06:16,879
early part of the Old Testament he was constantly talking

94
00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,600
with people and walking on earth and what other rubbish.

95
00:06:20,639 --> 00:06:24,079
And then, of course ever since then, he's never shown

96
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,560
his face to anyone ever again. So that's laziness, isn't it.

97
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:27,839
Speaker 2: It is?

98
00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,000
Speaker 3: Indeed, I got to look up all of them now

99
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:36,959
and just make sure I'm remembering the seven deadly sins pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath,

100
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,319
and sloth. Trying to think about gluttony if he's a

101
00:06:41,399 --> 00:06:42,519
spiritual being.

102
00:06:42,959 --> 00:06:45,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had a bit of trouble with that one.

103
00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,160
Speaker 3: Well, maybe it's more gluttony in terms of like coveting.

104
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,279
You know, he once see he's gluttonous for power, obedience

105
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,120
and worship. Maybe that's gluttony.

106
00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,240
Speaker 4: I buy that absolutely absolutely.

107
00:06:58,639 --> 00:07:01,759
Speaker 3: What's the religious climate in your part of Australia?

108
00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:05,959
Speaker 4: So we're obviously not as fanatical religious as you guys

109
00:07:05,959 --> 00:07:08,720
are over over there in America. For the most part,

110
00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,040
over here isn't as big a deal. People have their religion.

111
00:07:13,079 --> 00:07:14,879
Some people have their religion and they go to church

112
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,639
every Sunday, But the numbers are waning over here, and

113
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,959
I think I looked it up a few weeks ago

114
00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:24,759
and it's probably down to about forty or fifty percent now,

115
00:07:25,279 --> 00:07:28,000
which is a good thing I suppose. But most people,

116
00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:31,519
unlike what I hear from going on in America where

117
00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,480
people are at work and they ask you about God

118
00:07:34,519 --> 00:07:37,199
and all that sort of rubbish, that doesn't happen here.

119
00:07:37,639 --> 00:07:40,959
People really don't give a shit about religion. Oh so

120
00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,160
it's a good climate to beer, mate.

121
00:07:43,319 --> 00:07:45,759
Speaker 3: I envy you. Yeah, it would be nice.

122
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,759
Speaker 4: Can I ask you one thing Trump has already gone

123
00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,439
after Rowe versus Wade and with the Christian nationalists getting

124
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,759
in again, is it probable they're going to go after

125
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,959
the establishment clause in the First Amendment, because that's been

126
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:00,360
on the thorn in their side.

127
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,079
Speaker 3: It's already happening. We've got blacklists, We've got threats against journalists.

128
00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:09,199
We've got the threats to remove credentials from any sort

129
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,759
of non sycophantic publications. We've got the oligarchs who are

130
00:08:13,879 --> 00:08:18,439
running the Washington Post, etc. And they are censoring their

131
00:08:18,439 --> 00:08:21,519
own people. You've got journalists who are quitting in protests

132
00:08:21,759 --> 00:08:26,160
and trying to start management free journalism elsewhere out in

133
00:08:26,199 --> 00:08:29,759
the wild on the internets. You've got the Christian nationalists

134
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,600
who have long been going after the establishment clause. We've

135
00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,120
got in my home state, we've got a politician who

136
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,120
has submitted yet a again, for the umpteenth time, laws

137
00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:43,720
to put the Ten Commandments in public schools. And I'm

138
00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,240
at oppressive. I'm right here on the razor's edge because

139
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,559
part of me wants to be informed about the world.

140
00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,679
I don't want to be uninformed, is a better way

141
00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,080
to say it. But at the same time, I want

142
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:59,200
to protect myself from the unbelievable, jaw dropping, brain melting,

143
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,600
heart kill bullshit that is going to be going on

144
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,519
for the next several years, and I don't know how

145
00:09:04,519 --> 00:09:06,559
to handle it, and I'm struggling with it.

146
00:09:06,639 --> 00:09:08,799
Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying, Well, you guys aren't alone.

147
00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,440
You know pretty much most of us here in the

148
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,480
rest of the world are on your side. And sometimes

149
00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,200
when I'm debating Americans, I say, well, you know, your

150
00:09:18,519 --> 00:09:21,919
air politicians, none of your business will the matter effect

151
00:09:22,039 --> 00:09:25,399
is that anything that happens in America, I'll fix all

152
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,000
of us here in the rest of the world. So

153
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,120
really we've got to say as well, even though we

154
00:09:30,159 --> 00:09:31,679
haven't got a vote, we do have a say.

155
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,919
Speaker 3: We are all the human condition. Everything that happens here

156
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,399
does ribble out. There are consequences, and you absolutely have

157
00:09:38,519 --> 00:09:41,440
every right to have an opinion and to even be

158
00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:44,720
an activist on that opinion. And I welcome your partner.

159
00:09:45,159 --> 00:09:48,200
I feel like, ten thousand miles away, I have a

160
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,879
brother who understands me, who feels my pain and the

161
00:09:51,919 --> 00:09:55,279
pain of so many millions of Americans. Mick, I hope

162
00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,960
to get back down Under in the next few years.

163
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,879
Maybe it's worth a fifteen hour pl Lane ride from

164
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,679
lax to Sydney just to be down to that beautiful place.

165
00:10:04,759 --> 00:10:08,440
So if I get down there, we'll shake hands and talk.

166
00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,720
Speaker 4: Okay, great, talk to you, Mike. Thank you both that

167
00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:11,480
I see you later.

168
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:16,879
Speaker 3: Take care. I've got Mike at five two zero. Mike,

169
00:10:16,919 --> 00:10:17,399
are you there?

170
00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:18,399
Speaker 2: I am here?

171
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:19,080
Speaker 5: How are you? Seth?

172
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,759
Speaker 3: I'm well? Thanks for calling. What's on your mind today?

173
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 4: So?

174
00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 6: I just want to start out. I want to give

175
00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:27,879
you a little thank you. You were instrumental in my

176
00:10:28,039 --> 00:10:32,559
own journey out of Christianity. You were the first atheist

177
00:10:32,639 --> 00:10:35,360
that I came across when I was first starting to

178
00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:40,519
really doubt, and your work has done a tremendous help

179
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,679
for me mentally and emotionally and dare I say spiritually?

180
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,799
Speaker 3: Wow, that's huge. Thank you. How'd you find me? Would

181
00:10:47,799 --> 00:10:49,960
you type the word atheist into Google?

182
00:10:51,159 --> 00:10:51,240
Speaker 7: So?

183
00:10:51,399 --> 00:10:54,240
Speaker 6: No, Actually, so it started out because part of what

184
00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,919
I wanted to talk to you about is that you

185
00:10:57,039 --> 00:10:59,639
had mentioned before that during your formative years you were

186
00:10:59,799 --> 00:11:04,879
partly raised in Pentecostal churches. That's where I came from,

187
00:11:04,919 --> 00:11:07,360
That's where I came out of, and I had already

188
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,960
left Pentecostalism, and I was just kind of rooting around

189
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,480
looking for something that fit me better in a sense.

190
00:11:15,159 --> 00:11:17,440
And it's just It is quite literally one of those things.

191
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:22,000
The YouTube algorithm back in two thousand and decided that,

192
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,080
you know, I was looking at just what different faiths

193
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,360
were believing, and your one of your videos popped up,

194
00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:33,440
your video about Noah's art, and I watched it, like, yeah,

195
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,080
that makes sense, and so I kind of followed down

196
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,320
that rabbit hole, and he led me to reading books.

197
00:11:40,759 --> 00:11:43,279
Christopher Hitchins, got a not great kind of got me

198
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,360
into Sam Harris when he was more of a public figure,

199
00:11:46,879 --> 00:11:49,720
and a few short years later I just kind of

200
00:11:49,759 --> 00:11:53,360
came to the realization of holy shit, I actually I

201
00:11:53,399 --> 00:11:55,519
don't think that there is a God. So yeah, it

202
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,360
was quite literally I stumbled on you.

203
00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:01,840
Speaker 3: My mother was a Pentecostal, and I remember the times

204
00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:05,759
we went to Pentecostal churches. They did the you know,

205
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,240
jumping around and speaking in other tongues, you know, thanks

206
00:12:10,279 --> 00:12:13,759
to the Holy Spirit. How intense was your Pentecostal faith?

207
00:12:13,879 --> 00:12:14,720
Was it that kind of thing?

208
00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:15,480
Speaker 4: Oh?

209
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, very much, so very much. The speaking in tongues,

210
00:12:19,039 --> 00:12:22,639
running around the aisles, the rolling in the aisles. You

211
00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:24,879
know that people make the jokes of barking like dogs,

212
00:12:24,919 --> 00:12:28,120
But that did happen a time or two and it

213
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,000
was all just performative art to show everyone that, hey,

214
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,679
you know, I'm a true blue Pentecostal. See how in

215
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:36,759
the faith I am.

216
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,159
Speaker 3: Mike, if I can jump in quickly, did you speak

217
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,440
in tongues and roll around and do all that? And

218
00:12:42,519 --> 00:12:44,840
if you did, where did that come from? Did you

219
00:12:44,879 --> 00:12:47,519
feel pressure? Like, well, everybody else is doing it, so

220
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,679
I have to show that I'm filled with the Holy

221
00:12:49,759 --> 00:12:50,480
Spirit as well.

222
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:52,279
Speaker 4: Yes I did.

223
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,919
Speaker 6: The first time that I did, I was this is

224
00:12:55,919 --> 00:12:57,519
going to sound terrible. When I was six years old

225
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,559
and it was a special service some missionary hitcom raising

226
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,480
money for a mission he was doing somewhere on the

227
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,080
other side of the world, and they had that altar

228
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,120
call and the pastor's assistants asked, who hasn't had the

229
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,440
Holy Ghost? And so, you know, me being all six

230
00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,960
years old, raised my hand, and so they brought me

231
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,000
up to the church. And in the church at the

232
00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:25,000
time of about two hundred people, I was the center,

233
00:13:25,039 --> 00:13:29,639
focal point, and I had about fifty people crowding in

234
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,879
around me, putting hands on me, all of them yelling

235
00:13:32,879 --> 00:13:37,519
and gibberish, and so I started crying because at six

236
00:13:37,639 --> 00:13:40,480
years old, that is a huge thing to put onto

237
00:13:40,519 --> 00:13:45,639
a child, and my lips started quivering. And to them

238
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,480
that was speaking in tongues. It's like, oh, he has

239
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,919
the Holy Ghost. And so you know, that was you know,

240
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,799
this big, huge celebration, but I'm just falling and crying

241
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,399
and being curled up in a ball. And so from

242
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,000
there it became the norm. You know, now that I

243
00:13:59,039 --> 00:14:01,799
have the Holy Ghost, I have to learn how to

244
00:14:01,879 --> 00:14:04,879
actually speak in tongues. And it's not something that they

245
00:14:04,919 --> 00:14:07,679
actually like to admit that they teach you how to do,

246
00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:11,080
but they do. And so you learn, you know, how

247
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,120
to you know, you hear you know, the pastor doing

248
00:14:14,159 --> 00:14:15,960
any people around you, and you just start to do

249
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,159
the same kind of things. And so I started doing

250
00:14:19,159 --> 00:14:21,799
that because that's how you show that a Christian and

251
00:14:21,879 --> 00:14:25,320
you want to fit in. So yeah, I can say that, yes,

252
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,200
I did speak in tongues, and I can absolutely guarantee

253
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,039
that it is all forced and it's a learned habit

254
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:32,799
and behavior.

255
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 3: How do have been a tough journey to bust out

256
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,799
of that? Are you doing okay? Are people judging you?

257
00:14:38,759 --> 00:14:41,559
You're people trying to anoint you with a whil and

258
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,080
lay hands on you and do all that pentecostal stuff

259
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:45,240
you bring you back home.

260
00:14:45,639 --> 00:14:49,440
Speaker 6: Not anymore. It has pretty much destroyed my relationship with

261
00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:54,679
my family. We speak on holidays, that's about it. But

262
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,200
I'd rather have my peace than family that doesn't accept

263
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,279
who I am. I'm so I've got my wife and

264
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,440
my dogs, and you know, we're just out here living

265
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:07,240
our best life.

266
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,159
Speaker 3: You got family here, Mike. What are your dog's names?

267
00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:13,679
Speaker 2: I have mut his name is Bilbo.

268
00:15:14,279 --> 00:15:16,919
Speaker 6: Then I have a purebred beagle and her name is Pippin.

269
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,919
Speaker 3: Bilbo and Pippin. Oh, give him scratches ye for me.

270
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,240
And thanks for the kind words and sharing your story. Mike,

271
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:26,440
You're much appreciated.

272
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 6: Thank you, sir.

273
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:28,200
Speaker 2: Keep up the good work.

274
00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:33,559
Speaker 3: Take care of yourself, little bill boy. I love dog names.

275
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,639
Some of my favorite dog names are human names. I mean,

276
00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:40,559
the dog names are fun, but I just I mean

277
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,759
all animals, whenever they have a distinctly human name, like oh,

278
00:15:45,799 --> 00:15:50,200
look here's my kakatoo. His name is Larry. I just

279
00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:57,639
think that's awesome. You know, this is Charles. There's something

280
00:15:57,799 --> 00:16:04,720
so charming about that. Tony at nine seven zero, Thanks

281
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,480
for waiting. Are you're there? Yes, I'm well, Tony.

282
00:16:08,559 --> 00:16:11,279
Speaker 5: Hey, I did see that video that you made. That

283
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,360
one what was it called The Story of Us?

284
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:13,600
Speaker 2: Oh?

285
00:16:13,679 --> 00:16:17,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, the one I was whining about a few weeks ago.

286
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's like.

287
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,679
Speaker 3: I mean to me and nobody watched it, and somebody

288
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,279
was like, would you like some cheese with that wine set?

289
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,240
Then they're probably right. I was being a big baby.

290
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,159
But thanks for watching it, Tony.

291
00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:29,480
Speaker 7: Yeah.

292
00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:32,639
Speaker 5: I posted it on Facebook and I sent it to

293
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,159
a lot of my family members. I used to be

294
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,519
a Christian, but not anymore, probably not for the last

295
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,120
eighteen years. But yeah, none of my family ever answered

296
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,679
or acknowledged that I even sent it to them, and

297
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:45,159
they think I'm going to Hell.

298
00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:48,159
Speaker 3: Take a number. You and I are going to the

299
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,840
same hell. So maybe I'll just I'll save you space

300
00:16:50,879 --> 00:16:52,279
if I get there first.

301
00:16:52,519 --> 00:16:54,919
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, there always is. I need to get back

302
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,399
into church and get my life right with God so

303
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,279
I don't burn in hell. So anyway, Yeah, you're not

304
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:01,080
alone out there.

305
00:17:01,519 --> 00:17:04,839
Speaker 3: Well I appreciate it. What else is going on, Tony, I'm.

306
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,079
Speaker 5: Just working right now. I enjoy listen to your shows

307
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,359
and your podcast and learning a lot. Just want to

308
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:12,079
say thank you.

309
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,160
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Tony, and have a good day of

310
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:16,960
work and safe drive home.

311
00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:19,440
Speaker 5: Okay, all right, thank you sir, see you later.

312
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,599
Speaker 3: Five one two? Is it Gomez?

313
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,160
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's what King Glomez? Hi, how are you doing?

314
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,680
Speaker 3: Welcome? Let's talk what's on your mind?

315
00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 2: Hey, I'm just not sure if your community is aware

316
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,559
of the recent ridiculous flat earth debunkings that have been

317
00:17:35,559 --> 00:17:38,920
going on. Mostly I see a lot of religious people

318
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,519
believing in this pseudoscience stuff, you know, and well there

319
00:17:43,599 --> 00:17:45,559
is professor Dave. I'm not sure if you're aware of that.

320
00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:46,960
It's kind of been viral.

321
00:17:47,559 --> 00:17:51,720
Speaker 3: You're talking about Dave Farina. Help me understand the flat

322
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,960
Earth has a new conspiracy theory or there's a new

323
00:17:55,079 --> 00:17:57,079
method of debunking flat Earth.

324
00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,880
Speaker 2: Well, there was a recent they caught it, the Final

325
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,599
experiment where they went to Antarctica to see today believed

326
00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:05,759
that the sun was a twenty four hour son and

327
00:18:06,039 --> 00:18:08,920
on their flat earth model, they're like, if there is,

328
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,559
you know, they there was just all these conspiracies around.

329
00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:14,240
No one's allowed to go to antarcticle. So some rich

330
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,880
guy paid for basically the top flat earths to go

331
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,519
down there see if themselves, and some of them actually

332
00:18:19,519 --> 00:18:22,559
turned away from it when they realized that their theory

333
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,680
was wrong and the sun is twenty four hours in Antarctica.

334
00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:28,880
They used to think there was like an ice wall.

335
00:18:29,599 --> 00:18:34,160
But honestly, most of them are still believing this pseudoscience,

336
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,319
even though their own thing, it's called the Final Experiment,

337
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,200
was kind of recently that I wouldn't say, like two

338
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,279
weeks ago, they went down their head. They're still clinging

339
00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:43,880
to their beliefs, I guess.

340
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,720
Speaker 3: All right, yeah, well, thanks for talking about it and

341
00:18:47,799 --> 00:18:48,559
thanks for calling.

342
00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:51,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, thank you. Keep up the good work man.

343
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:56,960
Speaker 3: See you later. Okay. I pulled up the news story.

344
00:18:57,519 --> 00:19:02,119
This was published on the eighteenth of December twenty twenty

345
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,799
four after a pastor took a group of flat earthers

346
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,720
to Antarctica to prove definitively what shape our planet is.

347
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,359
Some of the truthers were startled to find that the

348
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:19,720
globe is indeed round. In an expedition dubbed the Final Experiment,

349
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,480
Pastor will Duffy took a group of flat earthers to

350
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,200
Antarctica for the first time ever. His mission to prove

351
00:19:27,279 --> 00:19:31,319
that there are no barriers literal or figurative, to prevent

352
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,240
him from visiting, but also that the sun shines there

353
00:19:35,279 --> 00:19:38,200
twenty four hours a day in the summer, something that

354
00:19:38,279 --> 00:19:42,480
simply couldn't happen if the planet was actually flat. Pastor

355
00:19:42,559 --> 00:19:46,880
Duffy said, I created the final experiment to end this debate.

356
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,759
After we go to Antarctica, no one has to waste

357
00:19:50,759 --> 00:19:54,559
any more time debating the shape of the Earth. In

358
00:19:54,599 --> 00:19:59,400
a video from that voyage, flat Earth influencer Jaron Campanella

359
00:19:59,559 --> 00:20:02,799
admit that when it comes to the midnight sun, he

360
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:08,680
may have been mistaken, and Jaren actually made this confession

361
00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:10,720
or admission on video.

362
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,279
Speaker 8: Here's the clip, so obviously you all know Jaron Campanella

363
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,839
of Jaronism, one of the most popular flat Earth YouTube

364
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:24,160
channels for long. All right, guys, sometimes you are wrong

365
00:20:24,279 --> 00:20:26,839
in life. And I thought that there was no twenty

366
00:20:26,839 --> 00:20:28,359
four hours son. In fact, I was pretty sure of it.

367
00:20:28,759 --> 00:20:32,680
But I respect Will Duffy for being a stand up guy,

368
00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:35,240
at least in the way that he kept saying it

369
00:20:35,279 --> 00:20:37,960
was true. I kept saying it wasn't. He said, do

370
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,000
you want to go, I'll take you and brought me here.

371
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,640
And it's a fact the sun does circle you in

372
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,279
the south. So what does that mean? You guys don't

373
00:20:47,279 --> 00:20:49,599
have to figure that out yourself. Don't listen to my

374
00:20:50,039 --> 00:20:52,319
beliefs or my opinion. It shouldn't matter to you, but

375
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,960
at least you should be able to accept that the

376
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,200
sun does exactly what these guys said as far as

377
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,119
circles the southern So that's about it.

378
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,519
Speaker 5: I realize that.

379
00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:07,519
Speaker 8: I'll be called a shill for just saying that, And

380
00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:10,240
you know what, if you're a shill for being honest,

381
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,240
so be it. I honestly believe there was no twenty

382
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,319
four hour son. I honestly now believe there is.

383
00:21:16,519 --> 00:21:20,279
Speaker 3: Okay. Couple of things on this real fast. First of all,

384
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,160
Pastor Will Duffy, who is the pastor of a Christian

385
00:21:24,279 --> 00:21:30,319
church in wheat Ridge, Colorado, a gap a Kingdom Fellowship.

386
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,559
He's a volunteer pastor. He took that role after the

387
00:21:34,599 --> 00:21:38,119
original pastor passed away, so we sort of jumped behind

388
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,400
the podium and he's been there and he believes the

389
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,960
earth is a sphere, and he organized the trip and

390
00:21:43,039 --> 00:21:47,160
he managed to convince what three or four flat earthers

391
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,880
who took the journey that yes, the Earth is a sphere.

392
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,440
It is not flat yet I have to wonder a

393
00:21:55,519 --> 00:21:59,319
Pastor Duffy has read his own Bible about the shape

394
00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:02,960
and nature of the planet. The first chapter of the

395
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,640
Book of Genesis, God said, let there be a dome

396
00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:10,039
in the middle of the water. Let it divide the

397
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,720
water from the water. God made the dome and divided

398
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,599
the water under the dome from the water above the dome.

399
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,319
That is how it was. And God called the dome sky.

400
00:22:24,319 --> 00:22:26,960
So apparently there was the water here that we see

401
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,359
in our lakes and oceans. And then there's a firmament,

402
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,680
think of a snow globe. Right, We've got the flat

403
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,240
earth here, and then we've got the big dome, and

404
00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:38,839
then there's space water that has been separated out there.

405
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,680
And a lot of Christian apologists like to use this

406
00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:46,759
particular verse in scenario to explain Noah's ark. God allowed

407
00:22:46,839 --> 00:22:49,359
or caused a rift in the firmament, so the space

408
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,559
water spilled down and covered the planet in liquid right,

409
00:22:53,599 --> 00:22:56,799
And this is part of the foundational book of Pastor

410
00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:00,960
will Duffy's religion. Has he not read the Book of

411
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,519
Revelation Revelation seven to one. And after these things, I

412
00:23:05,599 --> 00:23:10,480
saw four angels standing on the four corners of the Earth,

413
00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:15,240
holding the four winds of the Earth. How can the

414
00:23:15,279 --> 00:23:20,759
Earth have corners if it's a sphere. Secondly, and I

415
00:23:20,759 --> 00:23:23,359
think this is kind of typical, and we've discovered this

416
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:29,079
about identity beliefs and conspiracy theorists. Duffy sent out a

417
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,200
press release in advance of the trip, and he said,

418
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,359
once we go here and we demonstrate the Earth isn't flat,

419
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,000
the debate will be over and no one will need

420
00:23:38,039 --> 00:23:41,640
to waste any more time. Yet, oh how he had

421
00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:48,240
underestimated flat earthers, who would protest from ironically all around

422
00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:53,200
the world. On websites and in forums and across reddits

423
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:58,440
and social media platforms. Flat earthers have been explaining why

424
00:23:58,519 --> 00:24:03,000
it's all fake. They're talking about camera angles and shadows

425
00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:06,359
that make no sense and footprints. There was even a

426
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,160
pastor in Alabama who said Satan was involved in the

427
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,720
planning of this expedition and the posting of these lies

428
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:21,400
about an earth which is obviously flat. I talked about

429
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,759
flat earthers in my speech that I posted just a

430
00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:27,640
few months ago called the Brick Wall Brain why facts

431
00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:31,440
aren't changing minds, And I encourage you to look that

432
00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:35,759
up because we get into why identity beliefs are just

433
00:24:35,839 --> 00:24:38,160
so entrenched and so hard to change, but I got

434
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,279
to give props to the people who took the trip

435
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,799
and looked around and saw the sun and said I

436
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,599
was wrong. I'm going to update my position. That does

437
00:24:50,039 --> 00:24:55,200
give me a little bit of hope. Anyway, we have

438
00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:58,079
more of your calls. Whatever you want to talk about,

439
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:08,440
we will talk about next. My patrens get the broadcast

440
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,440
commercial free. They also get a two days early. And

441
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,599
your support is so welcome and appreciated. Patreon dot com,

442
00:25:16,599 --> 00:25:23,279
slash Seth Andrews. I've got Michael on a web call. Michael,

443
00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:24,480
thanks for waiting. Are you there?

444
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 4: I am? How are you, Seth?

445
00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 3: I'm well, what's on your mind?

446
00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:31,079
Speaker 9: I'm just looking at the trends around us and how

447
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,920
fewer and fuel people know how to vet sources. Fewer

448
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,119
in fer of people know who they should trust. You know,

449
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,440
there's really no such thing as an authoritative source to

450
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,440
a lot of people, a lot of people. You know,

451
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,119
you did a video recently about how facts don't change mind.

452
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,400
So I'm wondering how do we navigate this as a society,

453
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,279
how do we move forward? I mean, I think you know,

454
00:25:48,319 --> 00:25:51,119
shows like yours are important and I support them, and

455
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,079
I talk about these issues with my friends and family,

456
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,160
but it doesn't seem like that's enough. So, you know,

457
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,759
can you look into your crystal ball a little bit?

458
00:25:56,759 --> 00:25:57,039
Speaker 6: For me?

459
00:25:58,279 --> 00:26:02,599
Speaker 3: This is the dilemma and I with it. And it's

460
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,400
interesting because ninety nine percent of scientists can say whatever

461
00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:12,039
like evolutionary scientists that you know, there's a consensus. But

462
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:13,759
in the minds of some the more there is a

463
00:26:13,799 --> 00:26:18,160
scientific consensus, the more it proves the conspiracy that scientists

464
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,359
want to lie to you. And what do you do

465
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,160
with that? Right, Michael, Right?

466
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 9: And you know, to some extent, the meta of this

467
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,640
seems to be like we're preaching to the choir if

468
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,240
you'll forgive the pun, you know, because the people who

469
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,440
are good at skepticism and critical thinking, they don't need

470
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,839
to be told those things that they should be open

471
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,359
and I think, you know, it's the people that need

472
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:38,799
to hear it are the ones that aren't paying attention

473
00:26:38,839 --> 00:26:40,759
to what we're saying and have no interest in the conversation.

474
00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 3: I think one of the utilities of shows like this

475
00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:45,319
and the tone that I try to set for better

476
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:51,200
and worse, is to maybe create a forum where we

477
00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:54,559
can better tooel ourselves up for conversations and our own

478
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,559
life now where we go out and we interact with

479
00:26:57,599 --> 00:27:00,559
the world. I'm trying to be a d escalet. I'm

480
00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:02,720
sick and tired of all the name calling and the

481
00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:06,640
pointing and the blaming and the shaming on the micro level,

482
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,160
on the day to day level when we deal with

483
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,759
our friends and neighbors. And I mean, I understand frustration,

484
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,279
but I'm trying to get to the point where we

485
00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:18,599
can get in and maybe create a crack that lets

486
00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:22,119
in the line. But I'm surrounded by people who, even

487
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,039
to this day, are more afraid of the COVID vaccine

488
00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:28,160
than they are of the COVID virus. I know somebody

489
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,119
who thinks the Earth is a disc I know people

490
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,559
that think the Earth is a few thousand years old,

491
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:40,279
like the Samerians. Apparently the Samerians didn't exist, right. Michael

492
00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:41,920
and I have the same ole.

493
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,079
Speaker 9: You know, you can't reason yourself out of a position

494
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,000
you didn't reading yourself into. I think that applies. But

495
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,680
you know, you know, me and my partner, we've both

496
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,480
been working and practicing and getting better at spotting logical

497
00:27:53,519 --> 00:27:56,079
fallacies and being informed and learning how to have those

498
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,039
conversations and navigate them and call out the bad arguments

499
00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:01,240
when we see them. And I think you're absolutely right.

500
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,880
I think more people having that skill set is going

501
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,839
to be an avenue here. But you know, I always

502
00:28:05,839 --> 00:28:07,559
feel like maybe there's something more we should be doing,

503
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:08,599
and I'm not sure what that is.

504
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,799
Speaker 3: The imperfect answer is that we are going to have

505
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,440
to determine which sources are credible, and I think those

506
00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:18,039
questions to a degree can be answered. I mean, you

507
00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:22,359
can see actual vetted, peer reviewed scientists who are publishing

508
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,880
in Nature, etc. I'm not saying they'd never gotten it wrong,

509
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:27,680
because they have, but I mean I think we can

510
00:28:28,279 --> 00:28:31,359
do our own homework to see that we have credible

511
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:37,359
researchers and teachers and even scientific activists who actually know

512
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,720
what they're talking about, and they're continually checked by others

513
00:28:41,079 --> 00:28:44,079
who are experts in their field. And there are hubs

514
00:28:44,279 --> 00:28:48,240
for those types of information, and if we contrast them

515
00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:52,920
with say evolutionnews dot com or Joe Rogan or some

516
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,640
of these other benchit we can see that one is

517
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,880
going to be more credible than the other. There are

518
00:28:58,119 --> 00:29:01,359
websites like Snopes and up. There's very fact I think

519
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,960
is another winner verify. I have to look it up

520
00:29:04,599 --> 00:29:08,519
off to fact check my website fact checking. But there

521
00:29:08,559 --> 00:29:10,759
are more and more of these things which at least

522
00:29:10,839 --> 00:29:14,319
tool us up to take that journey and do our best.

523
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,480
But our best is always going to be imperfect. And

524
00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:19,680
in the era of bad info and the oligarchs and

525
00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:23,160
fake news and deep fake videos, etc. I don't know,

526
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,920
I'm overwhelmed by it, Michael. I'm just overwhelmed.

527
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,359
Speaker 9: Yeah, I am too. And you know, it's nice to

528
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,319
share some sort of kinship in that regard, and like,

529
00:29:30,359 --> 00:29:33,039
I'm here to try to move this forward. I'm here

530
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:34,839
to try to do the right thing and try to

531
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,440
improve society for everybody. But it just seems like it's

532
00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:40,519
just a tsunami right now. And it just it feels

533
00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:43,359
like I'm a very small person trying to fight the tsunami,

534
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:44,079
if you know what I mean.

535
00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:47,359
Speaker 3: And that's a strategy. You know, the disinformers out there,

536
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,759
it's like the Merchants of doubt, that book that was

537
00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:53,880
written about the tobacco industry, etc. They don't need to

538
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,480
go out and debunk as much as they need to

539
00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:59,880
create a fog so that no one knows anything, nob

540
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,720
bod he trusts anything, and you know, when you get

541
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,720
people to question even the most basic of things. The

542
00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:10,480
Earth is a sphere, we landed on the moon, vaccines work, etc.

543
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,160
You can get people just to decide, well, nothing is verifiable,

544
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,559
then you can get away with murder. And that's so

545
00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:22,039
frustrating in the era of the oligarchs, the billionaires now

546
00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:26,480
have weaponized the media and the largely ignorant public is

547
00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:30,039
lapping it up. As Carl Sagan rolls over in his grave.

548
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,599
And the best I know how to do is to

549
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,519
try to find hubs where the experts are and we

550
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,279
can verify that they are experts being peer reviewed and

551
00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:43,480
checked by other experts, to set them off, to sort

552
00:30:43,519 --> 00:30:47,160
of cull them from the disinformers out there, to do

553
00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:50,759
our best to ask the hard questions. It's an imperfect solution,

554
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:52,960
but it's all I got, Michael.

555
00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, you know, I've arrived at the same conclusion, and

556
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,920
I'm watching you know, I've been studying AI lately, and

557
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,960
that's just the worst possible. We pour the gasoline on

558
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,039
the fire of people asking this. You know, this algorithm

559
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:06,960
questions now and the algorithm doesn't know what's true and

560
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,720
what's false. It's just repeating things. So yeah, I think

561
00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:11,920
it's going to get worse before it gets better, unfortunately,

562
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,440
And I'm just trying to think about how do I

563
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,480
prepare myself to people around me, to basically meet this

564
00:31:16,519 --> 00:31:16,880
head on.

565
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,599
Speaker 3: This is related, Michael, I saw a ted talk from

566
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,119
a man. I'm doing this from memory, so give me

567
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,480
some grace. But he was talking about a new kind

568
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,720
of scam. He picked up the phone and his son

569
00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:33,319
was on the other line, and his son had been

570
00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:37,200
he was overseas in real life, he'd been overseas. But

571
00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:40,559
the voice of his son said, I have gotten myself

572
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:44,480
in legal trouble and I need ten thousand dollars wired

573
00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:46,839
here if I'm going to get out of jail. Dad,

574
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,200
Can you help me, Dad? Please? You know, I want

575
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:54,319
to come home. And his father was, of course absolutely traumatized,

576
00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:56,480
and he wanted to rescue his son. But over the

577
00:31:56,519 --> 00:31:59,319
course of this short conversation realized that there were a

578
00:31:59,359 --> 00:32:03,880
few things that didn't ring true, and it became apparent

579
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,039
that the voice was computer generated to sound just like

580
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,599
his son, but it was in fact a scammer. And

581
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,119
for that reason, Natalie and I have come up with

582
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,240
i'll call them safe words, you know, honey, if I

583
00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:23,640
have a call with an outlandish story and I need money,

584
00:32:23,759 --> 00:32:26,400
or I'm trying to get resources, or I want your passwords,

585
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,880
or I need any of this other stuff. Here are

586
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,160
some questions that only you and I would know the

587
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,200
answers to. We have to verify each other's identity because

588
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,400
we live in an age where somebody could call and

589
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,400
sound like me or you, and the other might not

590
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,400
even know the difference. So maybe we need an entire

591
00:32:44,519 --> 00:32:49,319
culture of passwords, verifiable words, proof of life words, safe

592
00:32:49,359 --> 00:32:51,960
words when it comes to those types of things. I

593
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:52,319
don't know.

594
00:32:52,599 --> 00:32:55,039
Speaker 9: Oh that's a good thought, and that's certainly something I'll

595
00:32:55,079 --> 00:32:58,480
be talking with my partner about. So thanks for that anyway. Yeah,

596
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,759
I love the show and have it as a anyway

597
00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:02,599
I can and keep doing the keep fighting a good

598
00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:03,000
fight set.

599
00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:07,039
Speaker 3: Thank you, Michael, Take care, Take care. I just pulled

600
00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:10,680
up this related story. It's a different instance, but it

601
00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:14,680
sounds awfully familiar. This is becoming a more common scam.

602
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:20,119
October twenty twenty four, a California senior citizen was swindled

603
00:33:20,119 --> 00:33:23,880
out of twenty five thousand dollars by scammers using an

604
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,440
AI voice mimicking his son to make him believe his

605
00:33:28,559 --> 00:33:33,079
loved one was involved in a horrible accident and needed

606
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,279
money to be bailed out of jail. The man, identified

607
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:40,160
only as Anthony, said he received a call from who

608
00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:43,799
he believed to be his son, saying he'd struck a

609
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:49,079
pregnant woman while driving and she was rushed to the ICEU.

610
00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:53,680
It was his voice. It was absolutely his voice, he

611
00:33:53,839 --> 00:33:58,359
told ABC seven News. There was no doubt about it.

612
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,240
Anthony said that after a short conversation, the scammer using

613
00:34:03,279 --> 00:34:08,079
his son's AI generated voice hung up, but he received

614
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:11,559
a second phone call minutes later from a man claiming

615
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:16,119
to be his son's lawyer, Michael Roberts. He said, you

616
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:19,039
need to get nine two hundred dollars as fast as

617
00:34:19,079 --> 00:34:20,920
you can if you want to get your son out

618
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,000
of jail. Otherwise he's in for forty five days. Suspicious

619
00:34:26,039 --> 00:34:29,639
about the lawyer's call, Anthony said he tried calling his

620
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,599
son to verify that he needed the bail money, but

621
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,400
his call was sent to voicemail. The worried father then

622
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,039
went to his bank and told the teller he needed

623
00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:43,840
a large sum of money for solar panel installation, so

624
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,880
as to not raise any unwanted questions about the situation.

625
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,480
After returning home, Anthony had his daughter call the lawyer again,

626
00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:55,800
who told them an Uber would be by shortly to

627
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,960
pick up the bail money. Surveillance cameras outside his home

628
00:35:00,199 --> 00:35:04,719
show his daughter verifying the Uber license plate number and

629
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:09,480
handing the money to the driver. However, the scammers weren't finished.

630
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,800
Moments after the driver left, Anthony received another phone call,

631
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,880
this time from a man named Mark Cohen, who identified

632
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,360
himself as another lawyer on his son's case and told

633
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,280
him the pregnant woman had died and his son's bail

634
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:32,119
had been raised to twenty five thousand dollars. Fearing his

635
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,519
son desperately needed the money to be bailed out of jail,

636
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,159
the concerned father returned to the bank and repeated the

637
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,400
entire process. After pulling out more money from the bank

638
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,960
and handing the second payment to another Uber driver, the

639
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,679
call stopped and Anthony was left wondering if his son

640
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,840
had been released from jail. As they waited, he said,

641
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,239
his daughter began researching the number and what was said

642
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,599
to him online, where she made a disheartening discovery. Dad,

643
00:36:03,639 --> 00:36:06,400
I hope I'm wrong, she said, I think you've just

644
00:36:06,519 --> 00:36:10,760
been scammed out of twenty five thousand dollars. Anthony said

645
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,760
he was so worried about the fate of his son

646
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,800
that had never even crossed his mind until after the

647
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,840
fact that he was being swindled out of a large

648
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,960
chunk of his savings. Los Angeles Police Department Detective Chelsea

649
00:36:24,119 --> 00:36:28,159
Sager told ABC seven that scammers have become more clever

650
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,719
and sophisticated over the years. They're using social media and

651
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:38,519
technology to craft these very believable and convincing stories, and

652
00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:42,199
people really do believe they're talking to a grandchild or

653
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:48,239
a government official. While phone scams are not, new technological advances,

654
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:53,039
specifically in artificial intelligence and number blockers, have opened a

655
00:36:53,079 --> 00:36:58,159
new playing field for fraudsters who prey on unsuspecting victims

656
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,639
to steal their hard earned money. They call and when

657
00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:05,960
you answer and it to scammer, there's silence. They want

658
00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:09,920
you to say hello or is anybody there. All they

659
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,079
need is three seconds of your voice to input it

660
00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:19,599
into AI and clone it. The detective also said scammers

661
00:37:19,639 --> 00:37:23,119
will go through video posts on social media as a

662
00:37:23,159 --> 00:37:26,280
way for them to capture voices and clone them to

663
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,719
use to defraud others. Seger told the outlet the department

664
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,079
was investigating what had happened to Anthony and looking into

665
00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:37,159
the drivers who had picked up the money. However, she

666
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,199
revealed that uber or lift drivers are usually uninvolved in

667
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,159
the con and are just hired to complete the task,

668
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,840
completely unaware that they are even part of the scam.

669
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:55,280
Sanger said, never to send money to someone you don't know. Anyway,

670
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,599
that's the gist of the story in some of the

671
00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:01,719
details about this fresh new scam. Keep your skeptical eyes

672
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,719
and ears and mind open and on alert out there.

673
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,480
A lot of folks are trying to take what you

674
00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:10,880
have by sounding like someone that you already have a

675
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:18,079
relationship with. Pretty scary stuff. Bernard at four seven zero, welcome,

676
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:19,280
thanks for calling.

677
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 10: How are you?

678
00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:21,159
Speaker 7: Can you hear me?

679
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 3: I can? What do you want to talk about? My friend?

680
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,199
Speaker 10: Originally, you know the danger, you know, of the encroaching

681
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,760
theocracy that they're trying to impose on us. Here there

682
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,199
was something that doctor King said, you know that I'm

683
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,239
thinking about it. You know, we want to ban porn,

684
00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:38,079
even if you don't watch porn, like many of us don't.

685
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,920
It's an encroachment on free speech, and I worry about

686
00:38:42,039 --> 00:38:45,000
people like us, people like you Seth and Arn and

687
00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:47,800
so many others who are trying to speak this truth.

688
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,159
You speak reason, because it's not going to stop. As

689
00:38:51,199 --> 00:38:53,800
doctor King said that, you know, threat to justice anywhere,

690
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,400
a threat to justice everywhere. They won't stop. And I

691
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,559
think that's the real fear, because this ideal, its time

692
00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:04,480
has come. And there's nothing more powerful than an ideal

693
00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:08,000
whose time has come. And this is why they're so terrified.

694
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,920
And that makes them really dangerous, you know, because I

695
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,360
am a former Jehovah's witness, and I'm telling you it's

696
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,119
a cult. You know, you come out of it and

697
00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:18,199
you look back. You don't realize you're in a code

698
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,440
until you're out of the cult and you look back,

699
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,440
Oh my god, I was in a code. It just

700
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,039
doesn't make any sense, you know. You begin to put

701
00:39:25,039 --> 00:39:27,800
the pieces together, You begin to speak to people who

702
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,000
are informed, read books that are informed, look at all sides,

703
00:39:31,039 --> 00:39:34,639
and then come to the logical, and not only the rational,

704
00:39:34,679 --> 00:39:37,440
but the moral conclusion that this doesn't make any sense.

705
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,760
Because when I left, I lost in that certainty that

706
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,280
we who were in the truth, which is what they

707
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,679
call it, we have the truth. No one else has it.

708
00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:48,639
Only we in this group have it, you know, And

709
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,960
the belief that, for instance said it takes on average,

710
00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:54,480
at least when I was in the organization, it took

711
00:39:54,639 --> 00:39:58,239
on average knocking on people's doors six point one years

712
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,000
to convert someone not least in the religion to the religion,

713
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,039
teaching them all the tenets, getting them to agree, getting

714
00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:08,000
them baptized, and then getting them out knocking on doors,

715
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,360
whereupon at that point they're one of Jehovah's witnesses. However,

716
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,400
in those six years, how many people have been born?

717
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,119
So it's just not rational. But to think, you know,

718
00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:22,440
that any all knowing God would use this method is

719
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,039
the equivalent of trying to swim up Niagara Falls. It

720
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,159
just doesn't make any sense. And the fault that no

721
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,360
other group, no other culture, no other people have any truth,

722
00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:35,159
any morality. You know, that a mere maybe at best

723
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,760
twelve thirteen million people are completely holding the moral center

724
00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:44,199
is just irrational. Everyone else is abusing their children, abusing

725
00:40:44,199 --> 00:40:47,320
their cheating on their wives, cheating on their taxes. They

726
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,320
have no morality at all. The only morality are those

727
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,000
in our group. It's just absurd, And it's a funny

728
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,320
thing that It's like, you know, having chicken pox, which

729
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,920
will immune you from maybe a more deadly form of pots.

730
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,159
You come out of it and you so quickly realize, Wow,

731
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,719
I've been through this. I see it in another application.

732
00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:09,079
Just as you said, Oh, America is God's favorite country.

733
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,320
You know the expression bullions and billions. We now know

734
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,559
it's trillions and trillions. So all all the truthions of

735
00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:18,599
planets and star systems, you know, this God is only

736
00:41:18,639 --> 00:41:21,639
concerned with the third planet from the Sun and a

737
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,000
minister spot of the Milcuar galaxy. Now the one hundred

738
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,519
and ninety plus nations. He's only concerned with the American people,

739
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,000
as if they can take the flag and plant it

740
00:41:31,039 --> 00:41:34,320
on God, their God, and claim it exclusively for this nation.

741
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,159
It's absurd, you know, And you come out of it

742
00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:39,920
and go, oh, my God. I was literally in a

743
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,920
brain wash cult, you know. But I agree like you

744
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,039
because my father. My father was wonderful, my brother is wonderful,

745
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:48,440
my oldest sister is wonderful. I have friends who are

746
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,320
still in the group, and they're wonderful. I just think

747
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,880
that they're misled, but they are wonderful people. And like you,

748
00:41:55,039 --> 00:41:57,960
I've met atheists who are awful, and history has proven

749
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,639
that some atheists are awful. But like offing you and

750
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,199
many others, I view myself not so much as an

751
00:42:04,199 --> 00:42:07,760
atheist first, but as a rational humanist. Well what do

752
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,159
you think?

753
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 3: I was on a show with some Christian apologist years

754
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,840
ago and they were taking issue with something I'd written

755
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,039
about in my book. It was a book version of

756
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:22,440
my speech. Christianity made me talk like an idiot. And

757
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,519
I have a chapter in there, Become Lord Jesus, where

758
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:28,360
we you know, like everybody's looking to the sky for

759
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,039
their arrival of Jesus Christ. But if you look at

760
00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:34,400
it even logistically, it makes no sense. And they were

761
00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:37,440
talking about my protests that, well, where's he been for

762
00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:41,960
two thousand years? And the rationalization was he wants to

763
00:42:42,199 --> 00:42:46,039
give people more time to accept Jesus, which is why

764
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:49,960
he has delayed the rapture, you know, retrieving the believers

765
00:42:50,039 --> 00:42:52,840
up into heaven. He wants more time for people to

766
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,719
accept him and be rescued. But it's an infinite regress.

767
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,519
When does that end? Because you've got millions and millions

768
00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:01,760
of people being born all over the place. Though you've

769
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,280
got fresh people who need to be rescued, and that

770
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:05,920
cycle never ends.

771
00:43:06,199 --> 00:43:10,559
Speaker 10: It's never ending. One of the most important thoughts that

772
00:43:10,599 --> 00:43:14,559
I learned that helped me and out of that mindset

773
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,519
was by the great Frederick Douglas. There was a minister

774
00:43:17,559 --> 00:43:20,960
who was criticizing him for having run away from his master,

775
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,280
and I said, yeah, you were wrong to run away

776
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,840
from your master. And he said in what way? He said,

777
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,800
you should have gotten on your knees and prayed to

778
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,880
Providence for your freedom, if that be his will. And

779
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,199
I've never gotten over when I read of Douglas's respondence

780
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,199
and he said, Sir, on my knees. For twenty years

781
00:43:39,639 --> 00:43:42,119
I prayed to your God for my freedom, and it

782
00:43:42,159 --> 00:43:45,400
never came. So one night I prayed with my feet

783
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,960
and it was mine. I think, what a wonderful expression.

784
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,519
We need to make the world better on our own.

785
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,400
We've got to do it. Stopped looking for some seedar

786
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,199
beyond the skies. It's up to us to make the

787
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,079
word looking constantly in the future. Because having been one

788
00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:05,599
of Jehovah's witnesses, o armagedness just around the corner and

789
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,599
just in that organization, they predicted it in the eighteen

790
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:14,840
seventy eighth nineteen fourteen, nineteen eighteen, nineteen twenty, nineteen thirty eight,

791
00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:18,960
nineteen sixty six, most famously nineteen seventy five. It just

792
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,400
goes on and on. It's just to regress it, just

793
00:44:21,519 --> 00:44:24,119
like a soccer ball, just kick further down the road.

794
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,920
At what point do you say enough, We've got to

795
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,079
do it ourselves.

796
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,679
Speaker 3: I normally don't do counterapologetics and memes, but I did

797
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,199
see one that said, I believe Jesus will return in

798
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,400
my lifetime signed billions of dead people. I just thought

799
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:40,719
that was.

800
00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 10: A great meme, billions of dead people.

801
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bernard, I appreciate you. Thanks for sharing your journey

802
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,679
out of that Jehovah's witnesses and making some good points

803
00:44:48,679 --> 00:44:50,960
here out of comment in the chat that you have

804
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,800
a lovely voice, so people enjoy listening. Do you speak

805
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:55,039
well done?

806
00:44:55,199 --> 00:44:59,599
Speaker 10: Well coming from you, coming from you, that's high praise

807
00:44:59,639 --> 00:45:02,280
and d And your book you do realize that every

808
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,039
book that you've written them, I've got those books. Not

809
00:45:05,079 --> 00:45:07,599
only do I have them, I have them all signed

810
00:45:07,599 --> 00:45:07,880
by you.

811
00:45:08,559 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 3: Thank you for that. They're not hitcheins, but I'm proud

812
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,679
of them. You know, at this level, I was tempted

813
00:45:14,679 --> 00:45:17,400
to include colors and puzzles on a pop up section.

814
00:45:17,559 --> 00:45:20,440
But they are what they are, and I appreciate the

815
00:45:20,519 --> 00:45:22,679
kind words Bernard, be safe, aren't They're okay?

816
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:23,199
Speaker 2: Okay?

817
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 10: And I promised everyone that he did not pay me

818
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,639
to say that.

819
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,519
Speaker 3: All right, take care, We'll see you later. But yeah,

820
00:45:33,199 --> 00:45:36,000
interesting that he brought up Frederick Douglas, because right now

821
00:45:36,079 --> 00:45:38,400
I'm in the middle of an audio book. It's narrated

822
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:44,480
by Charles Turner, as Turner narrates the words of abolitionist

823
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:49,039
and civil war human rights activist Frederick Douglas. A black

824
00:45:49,079 --> 00:45:53,079
man who has been born into slavery, and he was

825
00:45:53,199 --> 00:45:56,440
taught to read, I think at least partially by one

826
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,760
of his masters, which, of course the masters then realize

827
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,679
was a mistake, because as his mind became liberated, then

828
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,159
the rest of him would soon follow. He escaped, became free,

829
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,360
and then cemented his name in the history books as

830
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,119
one of the fiercest human rights and civil rights and

831
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:19,199
anti slavery activists in the nineteenth century. A lot of

832
00:46:19,199 --> 00:46:23,400
people think that Frederick Douglas was an atheist. I don't

833
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,960
believe that's true, but he was a fierce critic of religion,

834
00:46:28,079 --> 00:46:31,400
especially when religion was weaponized to oppress others, and he

835
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,000
wrote this quote in the book. He said, we have

836
00:46:34,159 --> 00:46:39,360
men sold to build churches, women sold to support the Gospel,

837
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:44,239
and babes sold to purchase bibles for the poor heathen,

838
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,480
all for the glory of God and the good of souls.

839
00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:53,039
The slave auctioneers bell and the church going bell chime

840
00:46:53,119 --> 00:46:55,960
in with each other, and the bitter cries of the

841
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,880
heartbroken slave are drowned in the religious shouts of his

842
00:47:00,199 --> 00:47:05,800
pious master. Revivals of religion and revivals in the slave

843
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:11,760
trade go hand in hand. If you haven't become familiar

844
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,719
with the writings and the speeches of Frederick Douglas, I

845
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:16,760
would encourage you to do so, because I think they

846
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:22,119
really resonate even today. Okay, more of your calls as

847
00:47:22,159 --> 00:47:31,039
we continue our time together on the other side of this,

848
00:47:31,039 --> 00:47:33,880
this just popped into my brain because it just popped

849
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,320
onto my calendar. In the last few days, I've been

850
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,159
invited by a local skeptics group to go on a

851
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:46,000
ghost hunt. Apparently there is a theater in a town

852
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,559
in Oklahoma about an hour from me or less, and

853
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:54,159
it is supposedly haunted. I think tongues are planted firmly

854
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,280
in cheek. I went and looked at the website and

855
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,360
it's like, well, we've had some people say, you know,

856
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,880
so I don't know how straight they're playing it, but

857
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,360
this skeptics group is going to go and I guess

858
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,360
they're going to spend the evening or spend the night.

859
00:48:08,639 --> 00:48:10,719
And they said, we know you're local, would you like

860
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,719
to come with us? And I said, well, I've always

861
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,800
wanted to do that, not because I believe in ghosts,

862
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,360
but because I love ghost stories and I've always kind

863
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,559
of wanted to grab your sleeping bag or whatever. It takes,

864
00:48:23,559 --> 00:48:27,760
some cameras and audio equipment and just report from the scene.

865
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,400
You know, was there a corpse floating three feet above

866
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,519
the ground going woooo.

867
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 2: Oh?

868
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 3: It's the laughter of children inside the walls. That's terrifying.

869
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,880
Where did that noise come from? The room was empty?

870
00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:46,719
What's up with this temperature drop? The monitor on my

871
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,320
camera shows a little orbs flying around. Oh, it doesn't

872
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,880
look like they're floating. That couldn't have been on the breeze.

873
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:58,119
They're going somewhere on purpose. Maybe it's Grandma. I've always

874
00:48:58,159 --> 00:49:00,519
wanted to just be in the room for this stuff,

875
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,639
And so I'm gonna go and I'll take some gear

876
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,400
to record some stuff, and if it turns out to

877
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:12,360
be an entertaining evening, then I'll post some stuff about

878
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,920
it on my channels and maybe here on the broadcast.

879
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,400
I don't know if it's just the skeptics group that's going.

880
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:23,159
I'm kind of hoping there will be some others involved,

881
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,920
true believers, the ones who were walking in and they've

882
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,159
got the dowsing rods and the temperature meters and the

883
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,559
you know, the crystals, and they're speaking to the walls.

884
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,599
Can you hear me? Do you have a message for

885
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,440
me from the afterlife? There may be a Wigi board. Hell,

886
00:49:41,519 --> 00:49:44,480
I participate, you know, give me the give me the

887
00:49:44,519 --> 00:49:49,079
Ouiji board. I would like to just be a part

888
00:49:49,079 --> 00:49:51,920
of it. But I'm going to see what happens and

889
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,599
not expecting really anything to happen. But I will go

890
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,840
in with an open mind and then commit myself to

891
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:03,280
submitting anything for Opper scientific review if it should happen.

892
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,920
So check back in with me in the month of February. Hell,

893
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,239
even if I saw a ghost, I don't think I'd

894
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,239
be scared at all, because nothing can terrify me more

895
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:18,639
than the living people who occupy my home state of Oklahoma.

896
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:23,320
I'm surrounded by these Bible waving, red hatted deer leader

897
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,480
evangelical types who apparently don't realize what they have just done.

898
00:50:28,159 --> 00:50:31,559
They either they don't get it, they don't care, or

899
00:50:31,599 --> 00:50:35,800
they love it. And Natalie and I have been thinking,

900
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,480
I wonder who else would have us, Like if we

901
00:50:39,519 --> 00:50:42,320
were to pack up Linus and Gracie and Cat and

902
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,440
we were to move outside of the United States. That

903
00:50:45,599 --> 00:50:50,119
seems kind of a feeling. Switzerland is supposed to be

904
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,880
the greatest country on the planet statistically as far as

905
00:50:54,039 --> 00:50:57,599
quality of life. Would Switzerland even have us? Could we

906
00:50:57,679 --> 00:51:01,960
afford to live there? We've had this conversation Australia, what

907
00:51:02,039 --> 00:51:06,960
a lovely place, and the country seems less insane. The

908
00:51:07,079 --> 00:51:10,199
United Kingdom. Yeah, they've got their problems, but it doesn't

909
00:51:10,199 --> 00:51:15,119
seem equivalent to what's happening here Canada. Canada's probably building

910
00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:20,039
a barricade right now just to keep Americans from infecting them.

911
00:51:20,559 --> 00:51:22,800
Even for those who think some of this are okay,

912
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,000
they can't afford to roll the dice, They can't take

913
00:51:25,039 --> 00:51:27,599
the risk. Well, wait a minute, seventy seven million of

914
00:51:27,639 --> 00:51:31,360
you lost your freaking mind. How do we know that

915
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:34,880
the rest of you aren't carriers of some virus or

916
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:39,000
brainworm that has caused all of your reasoning capacities or

917
00:51:39,079 --> 00:51:42,480
moral centers to just fall away? N Naa, you stay

918
00:51:42,519 --> 00:51:45,320
out of here. We got our own problems in Canada.

919
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,519
But Natalie and I've been talking like we are open.

920
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,000
We're open to getting out of Dodge. I'm not sure

921
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,679
I would like this front row seat to the shit show.

922
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,679
I've had friends outside of the United States borders reach

923
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:03,480
out and say, if you need a place to stay?

924
00:52:03,559 --> 00:52:07,079
No shit, They said, do you need a place? So

925
00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:10,000
I'm like, no, I you know, I'm not going to

926
00:52:10,039 --> 00:52:13,360
be cat o' kaalan and sleep on your couch. But

927
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,880
you know a lot of people are having conversations about

928
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,800
where they want to be, where they want their family

929
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:25,280
and friends and anchored to be geographically when Rome burns

930
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:31,280
itself down, so to speak. Anyway, Kevin at age five zero,

931
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:33,599
thanks for calling Kevin. What's up?

932
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 7: Well? This is kind of weird, but I just want

933
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:38,960
to tell you I love you, bro man. You're such

934
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:39,519
a good guy.

935
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:41,159
Speaker 3: Thank you.

936
00:52:41,559 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 7: Thanks. These things are weird because you know you're reaching

937
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,840
so many people, and then we have this strange relationship

938
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,719
where you don't know us, but we see you. And anyway,

939
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:54,280
that was not what I called about.

940
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 2: I was sort of.

941
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 7: Inspired by the discussion about moving out of the country,

942
00:52:59,679 --> 00:53:02,920
and I get a little bit worked up about it

943
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,519
in the sense that out of care for my fellow

944
00:53:05,679 --> 00:53:08,960
human beings, in the sense that it's like in twelve

945
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,960
step programs they got this phrase, wherever I go, there

946
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,880
I am, you know. And so my personal work for

947
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,039
my own mindset is to get right with myself no

948
00:53:19,079 --> 00:53:21,280
matter where I'm at. And I know that that's, you know,

949
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,920
kind of lofty and philosophical, but at the same time,

950
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,760
it's all I can do. Really, I can't change the

951
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,599
macro about politics and global economics and all that stuff.

952
00:53:30,639 --> 00:53:33,400
I don't think there will ever be this perfect solution.

953
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:38,119
So I've found a way to be productive and inspiring

954
00:53:38,199 --> 00:53:41,360
and vibrant and potent in my own personal day to

955
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,000
day life and touch the people around me in the

956
00:53:44,039 --> 00:53:46,039
hopes that I can just live in a better place

957
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:46,920
wherever I'm at.

958
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 3: You ever fantasize about it just getting out of Dodge.

959
00:53:51,519 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 7: No, I anecdotally, this is, you know, just my personal experience.

960
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:58,920
But last weekend I was at a major sporting event

961
00:53:59,039 --> 00:54:02,400
in Anaheim Health and I talked to two groups of

962
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,400
Canadians that want to be here because they're of the

963
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,920
problems in their own country. They would rather be here.

964
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,320
And I was in Colombia a while back and they

965
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:15,199
greeted me with the most loving open arms. So I

966
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:19,039
think that again, it's like it's a personal mindset in

967
00:54:19,079 --> 00:54:21,880
the work that we do on our own for ourselves

968
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,599
to look at it from a different way. I just

969
00:54:23,639 --> 00:54:26,679
got off a sales meeting call from my job, and

970
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,719
our budgets this year are limited and I can't do

971
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,599
the job the way I think that I want to

972
00:54:31,599 --> 00:54:34,719
do it. So instead of riping to my boss that

973
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,519
I don't have the budget that I need to do

974
00:54:36,599 --> 00:54:39,400
my job effectively, I'm looking at it like, Okay, this

975
00:54:39,559 --> 00:54:41,719
is what I do have, so I'm going to kick ass.

976
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,079
Was what I've got? Does that make sense?

977
00:54:44,159 --> 00:54:47,519
Speaker 3: It does? I guess every nation has its own problems,

978
00:54:47,639 --> 00:54:51,480
and it is relative. If I wish to end up

979
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:56,280
in say Yemen or Pakistan, I would be yearning for

980
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,880
the United States. So I guess, yeah, it does. Rec

981
00:55:00,079 --> 00:55:04,199
why there's some perspective and that's I appreciate you keeping

982
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:05,440
it Kevin real quick.

983
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 7: Don't get me started on that rabbit hole. When I

984
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,320
talked to Christians or other believers in whatever that have

985
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:15,079
made up their own God and their own ideas, I say, yeah,

986
00:55:15,159 --> 00:55:18,079
you know, there's all these lofty things that we thank

987
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:20,840
God for here in the United States or in some

988
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,119
other developed country. I think, yeah, it's easy to do

989
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:26,920
when you're not born in Syria and your main goal

990
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,199
is not to starve to death by the time you're five.

991
00:55:30,039 --> 00:55:32,639
Speaker 3: Appreciate you calling the show very much, my friend.

992
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 7: Thanks V.

993
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:38,679
Speaker 3: I read this article in The New Republic. It was

994
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:43,079
published on the twentieth of January. It was titled the

995
00:55:43,119 --> 00:55:47,599
First Resistance Failed, the next one can't, and the subtitle

996
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,480
was Democrats are wallowing in their failure to stop a

997
00:55:51,519 --> 00:55:56,119
second Trump presidency, which looks to be even more damaging

998
00:55:56,159 --> 00:55:59,400
than his first one. Snap out of it. I won't

999
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,679
read the article here, but you can find it by

1000
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,119
that title if you want. Then I guess it sums

1001
00:56:04,159 --> 00:56:08,719
things up. Resignation on one side, and the desire to

1002
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:12,280
try and continue to fight and salvage and rescue and

1003
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,519
resuscitate and restore on the other. Side, and then I

1004
00:56:15,559 --> 00:56:20,079
think we're a lost cause we're circling the drain. Maybe

1005
00:56:20,119 --> 00:56:23,239
it's time just to do a post mortem and then leave.

1006
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,239
And then I flip back to the other side of

1007
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:30,800
the metronome and say, well, moral people need to stand

1008
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,039
up for the moral thing. And if you and I

1009
00:56:34,079 --> 00:56:37,400
don't do it, who will. I'd rather go down fighting

1010
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:42,880
back and forth and back and forth. And I don't know,

1011
00:56:43,199 --> 00:56:48,320
I'm maybe I'm weak, or maybe you can relate. Maybe

1012
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,159
Natalie and I could like do a six month vacation

1013
00:56:52,079 --> 00:56:55,559
in Canada or Australia or Switzerland. Maybe we could just

1014
00:56:55,599 --> 00:57:00,599
do dual citizenship. Maybe maybe that's a solution. No, we've

1015
00:57:00,599 --> 00:57:03,039
covered a lot today. It's been fun hanging out with

1016
00:57:03,079 --> 00:57:07,159
you once again. We'll do it again next week. Take care.

1017
00:57:07,639 --> 00:57:11,159
Speaker 1: Follow the Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

1018
00:57:11,199 --> 00:57:14,840
complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and

1019
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,519
t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist

1020
00:57:18,559 --> 00:57:22,239
pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events

1021
00:57:22,239 --> 00:57:29,440
and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.