WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.120 It only takes a moment, one turn around, a bend, 2 00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:06.879 one step just a little too far ahead, and suddenly 3 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:10.519 the person you were just walking beside is gone. In 4 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:13.759 the open expanse of the desert, where visibility stretches for 5 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:17.719 miles and silence carries farther than sound, you wouldn't expect 6 00:00:17.719 --> 00:00:21.320 someone to simply disappear. But in July of twenty nineteen, 7 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:26.440 that's exactly what happened. I'm Megan, I'm Danielle, and this 8 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:42.039 is off the trails, all right, Well, before we get 9 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:44.719 into the episode, is there anything Do we have anything? 10 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:49.679 I do not. I don't either, other than welcome kits 11 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:56.520 for newer Patreon members are out, so watch your mailboxes. 12 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:04.519 I guess I think USPS takes forever to get things 13 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:07.719 to people lately. I've just been keeping track of things 14 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.519 at work wise, so hopefully you get it in two 15 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:12.319 to three weeks. 16 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:13.799 Is the post office lacking? 17 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:17.040 It seems like it. It's taking things like an average 18 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:20.280 of like ten days to get places like it took 19 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:26.000 eight days to go to a town fifteen minutes away. 20 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:28.599 That is insane. 21 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:31.319 Yeah, so I don't know what the deal is with that. 22 00:01:31.519 --> 00:01:35.280 But if you don't have them in like three weeks 23 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:38.799 let me know, but hopefully it's like two weeks with tops. 24 00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:42.959 Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's bad all right. Well, aside 25 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:46.920 from that then I think we can get into it. Yes, okay. 26 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:51.879 So Barbara Thomas was sixty nine years old, a grandmother, 27 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:55.159 a wife, and someone who found comfort in the quiet 28 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:59.200 beauty of the desert. She stood five foot nine inches tall, 29 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:02.319 with blonde hair and green eyes, and she lived with 30 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:07.000 her husband, Robert or Bob, in Bullhead City, Arizona. By 31 00:02:07.079 --> 00:02:11.159 all accounts, Barbara and Bob were familiar with the desert 32 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:15.840 and so this wasn't really new territory for them. They 33 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.639 enjoyed the outdoors and had even explored the area before, 34 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:27.520 understood the terrain, and were comfortable navigating its vastness. So 35 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.800 when they set out on Friday, July twelfth of twenty 36 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:34.680 nineteen for a casual day trip in their camper, nothing 37 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:38.919 about it seemed unusual. At some point that afternoon, roughly 38 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:43.120 twenty miles or about thirty two kilometers north of Interstate 39 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:47.719 forty in just east of Kelbaker Road, the couple decided 40 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.840 to pull over. They planned to take a short hike 41 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:55.000 about two miles round trip or roughly three point two 42 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:59.639 kilometers to check out some nearby rock formations. And it 43 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:02.639 was just supposed to be quick and easy. It just 44 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:04.639 kind of little, you know, pit. 45 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:05.560 The side quest. 46 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:12.439 Yeah, exactly, However, it would become anything but so. The 47 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:17.800 Mojave Desert stretches across parts of California, Nevada, Arizona, and Utah, 48 00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:22.879 covering an immense fifty four thousand square miles or about 49 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:27.879 one hundred and forty thousand square kilometers. To the west, 50 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:31.800 the Sierra Nevada Mountains form a natural barrier, and to 51 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:36.000 the south and east, the Mojave gradually blends into the 52 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:39.759 Sonoran Desert, and within its boundaries lies one of the 53 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:43.400 most unforgiving places on Earth. Can you guess what it is? 54 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:44.919 Death Valley? 55 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:49.240 Yes? Correct. The Mojave is perhaps also best known for 56 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:54.240 the Joshua tree, which is an iconic, almost otherworldly plant 57 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:57.199 that doesn't naturally grow anywhere else in the world. 58 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.719 I didn't know that it was endemic to that area. 59 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:04.120 Yeah. But as beautiful as the desert can be, it 60 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:10.120 can also be deceptively dangerous. Winters here can be bitterly cold, 61 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:15.080 with strong winds that cut across the open terrain, while summers, 62 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:19.000 on the other hand, routinely climb into triple digit temperatures 63 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:22.480 well above one hundred degrees fahrenheit or thirty eight degrees 64 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:26.480 celsius and oftentimes higher. But it's not just the heat, 65 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:30.160 because the desert is home to a range of potentially 66 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:36.959 dangerous wildlife as well, mahave green rattlesnakes, sidewinders, arizona bark, scorpions, 67 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:41.439 black widows, spiders, coyotes, and even mountain lions. But more 68 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:44.199 often than not, the greatest threat isn't what's hiding in 69 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:48.319 the sand or the rocks. It's the environment itself. The heat, 70 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:52.279 the dehydration, the disorientation that can creep in faster than 71 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:56.879 you expect, and sometimes the vastness. So what looks like 72 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:00.879 a short walk somewhere like here can quickly turned into 73 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:06.439 something much more serious. So back to July twelfth, when 74 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:10.360 Barbera and Bob sat out on their hike. They brought 75 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.680 a backpack, some beer and a gallon of water. 76 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:15.759 All right, and a beer would be my choice for 77 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:17.639 the desert, but that's okay. 78 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:21.000 Yeah, yeah, I feel like a beer sounds nice at 79 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:25.319 the end of a hike. But not during yeah, and 80 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:26.279 not that kind of heat. 81 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:30.920 I just like when I was like twenty five accidentally, 82 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:32.680 just like was in the sun all day, which is 83 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:35.120 which is not my thing and never has been my thing, 84 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:41.120 a drinking bud light lime, and I was just so dehydrated. 85 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:44.759 And I probably have felt like the worst after that 86 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:47.079 day of having like a couple beers on a hot 87 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:53.439 day than having you know, six drinks and yeah, yep, yeah, 88 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:56.240 any hydration get you, Yes, it does. 89 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:03.560 So while they had this backpack, Barbara herself wasn't carrying anything. 90 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:08.120 She was just wearing a bikini, hiking boots and a hat. 91 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:09.600 Iconic. 92 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:15.560 Absolutely, And agreed, while that is very iconic, and I 93 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:19.560 love her for this, I also want her to have 94 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:23.560 her own pack with some just some basic supplies and 95 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:25.600 I mean water and snacks. 96 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:30.240 And yes, that attire is perfect for drinking bud lightline 97 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:34.800 in your backyard, yes absolutely, or setting up your lawn 98 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:37.759 chair outside of your camper with a beer like exactly. 99 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:41.079 But she didn't have a cell phone, she didn't have 100 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:46.199 any extra water, no gear, and despite the heat, they 101 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:50.040 just you know, went on there, went on their stroll 102 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:51.639 to look at these rock formations. 103 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:56.079 Any idea how long they expected to be out, like was, 104 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:00.279 were these formations far from where they were parked or 105 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:07.879 just no, from what I could find, they didn't expect 106 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:08.439 it to be. 107 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:16.680 More than like two miles like at and back. Okay, 108 00:07:17.839 --> 00:07:21.399 So I don't know if it's an actual trail they 109 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:24.560 were on or you know, it's the desert, so make 110 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:27.560 your own trail, right, right, Yeah, But I don't think 111 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.560 they expected to be gone long at all. And given 112 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:36.839 that they were from Arizona, you know they are we 113 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:39.720 can assume very familiar with the heat. They're familiar with 114 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:43.199 just the Southwest region in general and that type of 115 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:49.279 climate and terrain. So this probably they probably were very 116 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:51.920 confident going out to do what they were doing and 117 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:54.199 how long they planned to be there with what they had. 118 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:56.800 Right, I think living in Arizona you probably have to 119 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:01.759 have a higher heat tolerance than I pause, so probably 120 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:04.120 I would last five minutes out and that. 121 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:08.759 Heat, yes, yeah, And I mean I think the heat 122 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:13.720 and the sun are they kind of work against each 123 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:16.920 other in the sense of because it's so hot, you 124 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:21.040 would think the less layers the better, But to protect 125 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:25.560 you from the sun and from that like direct exposure, 126 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:29.879 you really need the layers. So whenever you see people 127 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:34.000 hiking in like high heat areas and they have like 128 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:39.679 the long sleeves, the large hats, the pants, it seems counterintuitive, 129 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:42.120 but it actually, of course makes the most sense. 130 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.000 Several summer hoodies. And people give me a hard time 131 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:48.399 when I walk at lunchtime at work and I have 132 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:52.080 like my hood up, But it's uv protection. 133 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:53.480 It's not because. 134 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:56.039 I'm cold when trying to keep the sun off of 135 00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:57.799 all of me if possible. 136 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:00.320 Yes, and that's that's the right thing to do. At 137 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:04.480 around two thirty pm, the couple began making their way 138 00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:08.960 back to the camper, and at some point along the way, 139 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:14.159 Barbara started walking ahead of Bob, and he later said 140 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:17.000 that he had stopped briefly to take a photo of 141 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:22.240 one of the rocks out there, and as he was 142 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:25.759 putting his camera away, he saw that Barbara had rounded 143 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:28.399 a corner like just ahead of him, out of sight. 144 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:32.799 But it wasn't unusual. He didn't think anything of it, 145 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:36.000 just that she was a little bit further ahead of him. However, 146 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:38.320 what he didn't know is that it would also be 147 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:41.039 the last time that he would ever see her. When 148 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:45.799 Bob reached that same corner. Moments later, she wasn't back 149 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:49.200 in sight, but again he wasn't panicking yet. He just 150 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:53.120 assumed that she had gotten further ahead and was maybe 151 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:56.559 at the camper waiting for him. You know, just nothing. 152 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:01.440 Concerning, Right, is this terrain where they were in particular? 153 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.919 Like are there a lot of boulders or rocks or like, 154 00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:09.679 I guess I'm trying to picture how you get out 155 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:10.960 of sight quickly. 156 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:12.120 In the desert. 157 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.039 Right, that has like a lot of like low growing 158 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:19.320 vegetation and kind of typically that's about it. 159 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:23.679 Yeah, so it so because we only sort of have 160 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:29.399 an approximate placement of where they were, it looks like 161 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:35.879 this area does have just some you know, larger boulders 162 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:41.360 or rocks that someone could be behind or near. And 163 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:45.159 like you said, it is lighter vegetation, so it's not 164 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:48.440 it's not like dense by any means where they are. 165 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:53.679 But I also don't know exactly where they were, right, 166 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:57.000 do you know of any like potential obstructions that they 167 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:00.600 that could have been between them? Okay, soh yeah, he 168 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:03.320 had assumed that she had just you know, made her 169 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:05.240 way back to the camper and he would just meet 170 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.039 her there. But when he got there, That's when he 171 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:13.279 immediately became worried because she wasn't outside the camper waiting 172 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:17.000 for him. The camper door was locked, and so of 173 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:20.399 course she wasn't inside it either, and she was nowhere 174 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:25.279 to be found. Almost immediately, you know, he started calling 175 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:29.039 out her name. He started looking everywhere for her around 176 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:33.559 the area, listening for anything, trying to find any movement, 177 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:38.960 but there was nothing, no sign of where she may 178 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:42.559 have gone. So he called nine one one, and authorities 179 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:46.919 arrived shortly after, and what followed would just be a 180 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:51.600 pretty comprehensive search effort. There were sheriff's deputies, search and 181 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:58.399 rescue teams, fire personnel, park rangers, canine units, and a helicopter. So, 182 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:04.519 I mean, you have everyone, everyone coming in and she 183 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:07.000 was so close to him that you would think in 184 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:09.759 that short amount of time she couldn't have gotten far 185 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:10.600 from there. 186 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:14.919 Right, It's not like they were on their way to 187 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.039 their destination. Well, I guess you're always on your way 188 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:20.720 to a destination. It's not like they were heading away 189 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:25.320 from the camper, right where the possibilities of where you 190 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:29.320 might end up are significantly more. But it sounds like 191 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:32.399 they're pretty close to the camper. 192 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:35.639 Yeah, and they had just they had pulled off of 193 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:38.120 that road, so where they had parked the camper, you 194 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:41.480 actually needed to cross the street to get back to it. 195 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:44.639 So there was also a road that would be. 196 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:46.919 A landmark. 197 00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:50.519 Yes, thank you, there it is. So, you know, teams 198 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:53.679 combed the surrounding terrain on foot and they had the 199 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:57.399 aerial support the dogs, which you know, you would think 200 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:00.000 like dogs would pick up a send pretty quickly. There 201 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:04.320 wasn't any rain or anything that would potentially compromise that 202 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:09.120 part of the search. But days passed with no leads. 203 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:14.120 She just vanished. On Wednesday, July seventeenth, off road vehicles 204 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:17.240 were brought in to expand the search area, covering ground 205 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:21.080 that was too difficult to access on foot. Then on 206 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:25.240 July twentieth and twenty first specialized teams joined the effort, 207 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:30.080 and these individuals were certified in cave searches, rope climbing, 208 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.360 and desert terrain. Ground hikers were among the search and 209 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.080 rescue members. So they were bringing in every type of 210 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:42.399 skill set possible to aid in this search. But they 211 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:48.200 couldn't find footprints. They didn't find you know, clothing, blood, 212 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:52.000 no sign of a struggle, no indication of where she 213 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.919 had gone. She had just disappeared. On July twenty second, 214 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:02.399 authorities announced that Bob was being looked at as a suspect. 215 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:08.720 Which in these situations does make sense. It's seemingly obviously 216 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.279 he was the last person to see her. Typically in 217 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:19.559 I think any situation, your partner is the most likely culprit. 218 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:24.200 And I'm sure where he said. He called very quickly 219 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:29.639 and a search got underway pretty quickly in a known area. 220 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.360 I'm sure they're like, Okay, she should be here, exactly, 221 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:36.519 isn't she? Yeah, this does not make any sense. And 222 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:41.159 as you said, I mean, it's understandable for them to 223 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:46.039 look at him. I think if any two people were 224 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:51.440 anywhere together and one goes missing, you have to look 225 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:56.120 at that other person and question the version of events 226 00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:59.600 that they've told you. But definitely, and of course Bob 227 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:04.399 made tained his innocence, and he actually offered his own theory, saying, 228 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:07.480 I feel like someone did pick her up because she 229 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.279 was wearing a bikini, she had a beer in her hand, 230 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:12.759 she was ahead of me, and she had to cross 231 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:18.759 that road. He believed that someone passing through that sort 232 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.519 of remote stretch of the desert had taken her, but 233 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:27.840 investigators were not convinced. They had Bob take a polygraph test, 234 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:33.399 and the results showed indications of deception. Still, polygraphs are 235 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:36.919 far from fool proof, and Bob stood firm in his 236 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:40.360 denial of having anything to do with his wife's disappearance, 237 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:44.279 and he later attributed the results to sleep deprivation at 238 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:49.200 the time of the test. Also, it's a high stress scenario, 239 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.879 you know, I mean, sleep deprivation aside, let's assume that 240 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:56.559 he is, you know, not responsible for it, and the 241 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:03.399 amount of like just panic going on, the stress, like 242 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:08.519 there's so many things happening in your body. How could 243 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:11.320 it not impact the test results? 244 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:17.600 Yeah, I always I mean, obviously we've talked about polygraphs before. 245 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:19.240 But I don't know. 246 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:24.080 I think if you are stressed enough or sleep deprived, 247 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:30.440 anxious enough, Yeah, I could probably possibly fail a polygraph 248 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:34.279 about you know, like what I did yesterday, just because 249 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:38.759 it's a stressful situation, even just being tested sitting there 250 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:40.519 with police or investigators. 251 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.000 Yeah, I mean that, And that's exactly right, Like you 252 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:47.720 could be called in to take a test right now, 253 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:53.480 not that you're under suspicion for anything. But if a 254 00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:59.720 if any authority figure is asking you questions like where 255 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:03.639 we're yesterday, Oh, what time was that at? Oh are 256 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:07.359 you sure that you know you're recalling that correctly? What 257 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.880 was this person wearing? And that's that's intimidating. 258 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:14.720 Gets stressed out at the drive theorem ordering like a 259 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:16.640 coffee or something, and they're like, do you want an 260 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:18.920 iced or hot? And I'm like, I don't know, you 261 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:19.319 tell me. 262 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:20.000 I don't know. 263 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:23.960 It's always iced, but you know, I think, yeah, I 264 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.200 think we always have to takee with the grain of salt. 265 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:29.559 But I would not be surprised if in the next 266 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:36.160 few years science phases those out all together, just because 267 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.000 there's so many other factors. 268 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:43.880 Yeah, I agree. So Barbara's family also didn't believe that 269 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:49.480 she had simply wandered off, and the source that I 270 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.079 saw this from says that her family was from Hong Kong. 271 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:57.720 So I don't know if they lived there or from 272 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:02.519 there or okay, but it they just sort of just said, 273 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.680 like collectively, her family in Hong Kong didn't believe she 274 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:07.799 had simply wandered off. 275 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:11.880 Okay, they how about it? Sorry, do you know how 276 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:13.440 long they had been married? 277 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.920 No? And I was going to touch on that toward 278 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:23.319 the end of the episode. There was not really there's 279 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:26.079 like virtually no background information. 280 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.519 Okay, I mean not that necessarily matters. Obviously, we've heard 281 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:33.799 of cases where a partner or a spouse does something 282 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.920 horrible to their you know, their newlyweds and they've been 283 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.759 married a week. But then we've also heard of situations 284 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:44.039 where it's been thirty five years and something happens. It 285 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:46.599 doesn't necessarily matter, but I was just curious. 286 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:50.319 Absolutely it does. You know, whenever we've said this before, 287 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:58.119 where it is nice to get a sort of picture 288 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.200 of this person we're talking about that we're not we 289 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.920 can expand beyond the incident that we're covering and actually 290 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:06.960 sort of get to know them a little bit more 291 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:10.880 as just the person outside of the incident, and so 292 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:15.799 getting that context of you know, not to invade anyone's privacy, 293 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:18.799 of course, but just whenever there is a little bit 294 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.759 of information like where they're from, what they like to do, 295 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.799 maybe what they did for work, and what other people 296 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:28.359 said about them, it's just nice to bring that information 297 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:29.240 to light as well. 298 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:31.160 Yeah, brought in the scope a bit. 299 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:36.279 Yeah, so her family said that the chances she became 300 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:39.920 lost or disoriented in the five minutes before her husband 301 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:44.920 between her husband reporting last seeing her and him realizing 302 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.960 she was missing is highly improbable. Barbara does not have 303 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:51.200 a history of any illness that we know of. We 304 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:53.799 have no reason to believe Barbara would walk away from 305 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:56.119 her husband or disappear in the manner. 306 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:56.480 That she has. 307 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:01.359 The case was eventually taken over by the Specialized Investigations Division, 308 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:05.480 but they weren't able to you know, find any new 309 00:20:05.559 --> 00:20:10.599 leads or evidence either. Eighteen months passed, there was you know, 310 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:13.799 it was a year and a half of uncertainty, questions 311 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:18.400 and just waiting. Then on November twenty seventh of twenty 312 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.680 twenty two, people hiking in a field off kel Baker 313 00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:28.839 Road made a discovery human remains. The following day, on 314 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.480 the twenty eighth, authorities conducted a more extensive search of 315 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:37.960 the area, recovering additional bones and evidence. Those remains were 316 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:43.240 later positively identified as Barbara. However, her cause of death 317 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:49.440 has remained pending, or at least not disclosed. So many 318 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:54.200 of the questions surrounding her disappearance have also remained unanswered. 319 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:59.559 So far, was this from where she originally witnesssing. 320 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:02.599 That's a great question. They did not. It's so I 321 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:06.799 have an overhead view of kel Baker Road. So it's 322 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:12.559 essentially there are two main roads that run like east 323 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:18.240 to west that are sort of like they run parallel 324 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.480 with each other, and where they were this kel Baker Road. 325 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:26.799 It's sort of like this scenic side road if you will, 326 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:32.119 that runs north to south between these two roads. So 327 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:36.759 there is a stop and star of kel Baker Road. 328 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.759 So it can only be in in you know, like 329 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.920 a limited space. But they're still miles and miles of it. 330 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:48.799 And although I was able to find where they were 331 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.640 based on the sources saying that they had parked about 332 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:58.480 twenty off of the road from Interstate forty, I think 333 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:00.720 it is so we know where that is. But when 334 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:03.079 they talk about the remains, all they say is cal 335 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:08.839 Baker Road, so literally anywhere Crivis Road. Okay, not helpful, no, 336 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:14.079 And I know we've brought this up before when remains 337 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:19.000 are found, and they're very, very vague with where they're found. 338 00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:22.400 Which is understandable for a variety of reasons. 339 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:29.200 Absolutely, but it also leaves that question for us who 340 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.720 have not that we they owe us anything, but you 341 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:38.839 know what. It would be helpful to know where she 342 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:40.920 was found in relation to where she went missing. 343 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:44.759 I think it can give a lot of indication as 344 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:48.400 to if she got there on foot on her own 345 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:53.599 while the search was going on, or if she was 346 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:58.079 taken there in a vehicle or ended up there at 347 00:22:58.119 --> 00:22:59.480 a later point. 348 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.119 Right, knowing that that road is there and knowing that 349 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:10.359 it's sandwiched between these two major roads tells me like, well, 350 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:13.720 she obviously never made it to the road and wouldn't 351 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:16.119 and didn't find her way back to the road, because 352 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:19.359 that's something where you would just sort of, I would think, 353 00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:22.039 hang out near and hope to see a car and 354 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:25.799 be like, just it's either sitting you know, by the 355 00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:30.240 road or wander the desert, which one sounds like a 356 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:31.039 better outcome. 357 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:32.079 Right. 358 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:35.799 So, there are, of course a few theories and possibilities 359 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:40.200 as to what may have happened to Barbara. It's possible 360 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:43.000 she became disoriented in the heat. You know. Of course, 361 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:47.440 even experienced hikers can underestimate how quickly dehydration and extreme 362 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:52.480 temperatures can affect the body, Especially without adequate water or protection. 363 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:55.799 In triple digit heat, the human body can begin to 364 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:59.400 shut down far faster than most people realize, and she 365 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:04.599 didn't have really anything that was helping her combat that 366 00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:08.480 heat and that direct exposure, because. 367 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:11.799 I'm sure even that gallon of water they had, I 368 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:15.279 would assume probably pretty depleted by that point. And it 369 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.920 sounds like Bob was carrying anything they had anyway. 370 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.039 Yeah, she just had, as he said, beer, a beer 371 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:23.880 and bikini. 372 00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:26.039 There's no pockets and bikinis. 373 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:30.119 No, no, they're not. It's possible she attempted to take 374 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:33.319 a short cut back to the camper and lost her bearings. 375 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.359 You know, in the desert, terrain can look deceptively similar 376 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.359 in every direction. It doesn't take much to veer off course. 377 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:45.240 There's a highly unlikely theory that she encountered a wild animal. 378 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:49.119 The desert is home to, you know, some of the 379 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:52.640 some predators like coyotes and mountain lions, and you know 380 00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:56.920 the some venomous snakes and the Arizona bark scorpion. But 381 00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:01.400 and you know, an attack earning ca counter isn't impossible, 382 00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:03.759 it's just highly improbable in this case. 383 00:25:05.079 --> 00:25:10.319 And obviously those smaller creatures a snake, a scorpion, they 384 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:13.519 would not have relocated her in any way. A mata 385 00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:19.839 lion probably could take a human elsewhere. Coyote possibly as well. 386 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.119 But if you get bit by a snake, they're not 387 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:24.119 packing you up to go. 388 00:25:24.680 --> 00:25:28.240 That is true. That would be horrifying if it did. 389 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:32.799 And as we've discussed before, you know, any type of 390 00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:38.039 animal attacks almost always leave behind evidence their tracks, disturbed ground, blood, 391 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:41.519 torn clothing, and despite an extensive search and even involving 392 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:44.079 the canine units and trained teams, none of those signs 393 00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:46.720 were found. If she had been bitten by a snake 394 00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:49.640 or stung by a scorpion, she likely would have been 395 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:53.200 located within the search radius. After succumbing to her injuries, 396 00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:56.799 Barbara had only been out of sight for a matter 397 00:25:56.839 --> 00:25:59.960 of making it even less likely that such an encounter 398 00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:04.559 could have occurred without leaving any trace. So there's really 399 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:09.920 no evidence to support any animal involvement. There's the theory 400 00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:14.119 that Bob suggested that someone may have encountered her and 401 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.279