1
00:00:11,519 --> 00:00:12,720
Speaker 1: This is Jonathan Pegel.

2
00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,400
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Symbolic world.

3
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,079
Speaker 3: Sisters growing your father's your grace, christ has risen.

4
00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:32,039
Speaker 2: It's good to see.

5
00:00:31,879 --> 00:00:32,759
Speaker 1: You all this evening.

6
00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,880
Speaker 4: We are going to go ahead and get started, so financy,

7
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,359
who lets sit on somebody else?

8
00:00:39,119 --> 00:00:43,119
Speaker 2: And I know, it's really wonderful to see everything so full.

9
00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,359
Speaker 5: It's my great pleasure to have.

10
00:00:47,439 --> 00:00:50,640
Speaker 2: The honor of introducing my good friend Jonathan Pago.

11
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,240
Speaker 4: And we were talking a little bit before and I

12
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,439
was trying to decide how best to introduce him, and

13
00:00:56,479 --> 00:00:59,399
I was like, well, one of my most embarrassing Jonathan's stories.

14
00:01:00,039 --> 00:01:02,520
You know, there's also there's also you know, one of

15
00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:04,400
the things that people ask me quite often is how

16
00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,519
did you start working together? I mean, after all, I'm

17
00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,680
from Texas, thank god, and he's French.

18
00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:17,879
Speaker 2: And you know, and so and so. The quick story

19
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,000
that I'll tell is that several years ago I was.

20
00:01:22,599 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 4: And the sort of person as most of you probably know,

21
00:01:24,719 --> 00:01:27,519
I just I like to read really old, interesting, weird,

22
00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,239
obscure things. And so I was reading these things and

23
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,079
I was posting about some of the stuff that I

24
00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,359
was reading on the specifically something called the Sibiling Books,

25
00:01:36,439 --> 00:01:39,280
which if you've watched our universal History videos, you go

26
00:01:39,439 --> 00:01:41,799
back for the first couple, you'll you'll see some stuff

27
00:01:41,799 --> 00:01:43,879
in there about them. Anyways, I was posting about this

28
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,560
in the Simbald Road community and I think Jonathan was.

29
00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:47,280
Speaker 1: Like, who is this guy?

30
00:01:47,719 --> 00:01:49,599
Speaker 2: Was he posting it? Like? You know?

31
00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,519
Speaker 4: And so we started having a conversation about this, and

32
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,640
then eventually said, well, let's do a podcast, and then

33
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,040
the podcast turned into another podcast and into another podcast, and.

34
00:01:59,079 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 2: Then basically I sort of just moved in, you know.

35
00:02:02,719 --> 00:02:06,159
Speaker 1: And then and then, you know, several.

36
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,120
Speaker 4: Years later, now what it's been three or four years,

37
00:02:08,159 --> 00:02:10,120
I guess since we started doing that series together. And

38
00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,400
we've got a wonderful publishing company, the Symbolic World Press.

39
00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,879
That's been one of the great joys and frustrations and

40
00:02:19,719 --> 00:02:21,400
all of those things of my life is to work

41
00:02:21,439 --> 00:02:23,840
up at with you. But we've got a table at

42
00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:25,919
the back and there are some flyers that I think

43
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:27,439
some of you were handed when you came to the door.

44
00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,400
Is anybody have a flyer? I meant to have one

45
00:02:29,479 --> 00:02:32,560
to hold out somebody there We go, yeah, thank you.

46
00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:35,879
Speaker 2: So there's some flyers you've gotten at the door.

47
00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:37,840
Speaker 4: And I think we still have a few left, and

48
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,159
these just this has a little bit about our work,

49
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,000
including a QR code.

50
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:44,879
Speaker 2: So there's two things here that I just want to

51
00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:45,759
call your attention to.

52
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:47,319
Speaker 1: Jonathan won't do this.

53
00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,800
Speaker 2: He's terrible at marketing.

54
00:02:50,199 --> 00:02:52,080
Speaker 1: Assad man, Come.

55
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,159
Speaker 2: On, my children have to eat. No. But I just

56
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:57,520
want to point to have two things. One is that

57
00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,199
we have the next book in our Fairytalk life, and

58
00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:01,360
we have the first two back.

59
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:01,919
Speaker 5: There at the table.

60
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,000
Speaker 2: If you haven't grabbed one already, please come by with

61
00:03:04,159 --> 00:03:04,719
a few left.

62
00:03:06,199 --> 00:03:08,560
Speaker 4: But the next book in our series is Rapunzel and

63
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,439
the Evil Witch, and this comes out sometime this summer, and.

64
00:03:15,439 --> 00:03:16,680
Speaker 2: It's really beautiful.

65
00:03:16,759 --> 00:03:19,120
Speaker 4: It is legitimately it's one of the most beautiful books

66
00:03:19,479 --> 00:03:21,400
that I have ever read in my life, and I'm

67
00:03:21,479 --> 00:03:24,159
just so excited about getting to bring it to all

68
00:03:24,199 --> 00:03:24,319
of you.

69
00:03:24,479 --> 00:03:26,360
Speaker 5: So there's a QR code here.

70
00:03:26,439 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 4: There's going to be a kind of a shorter release

71
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,560
in the summer before the rest of the books arrive,

72
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,039
and so if you want to be in on that

73
00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,520
first release, which is pretty limited, you can sign up

74
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:37,840
for early access there. The other thing is that we're

75
00:03:37,879 --> 00:03:40,639
currently doing a course for the Symbolic World Press, so

76
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,319
some of you may know, we have courses on literature, medievalism,

77
00:03:45,479 --> 00:03:47,639
the inklings, things like this, and so right now Jonathan

78
00:03:47,719 --> 00:03:51,360
is teaching an amazing course. It's our Symbolism masterclass, and

79
00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:54,680
it's really basically it's all the things Jonathan won't say

80
00:03:54,719 --> 00:03:55,199
in public.

81
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,120
Speaker 2: You know. It really is kind of that though. I

82
00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,400
know that some of you here are actually taking the

83
00:04:00,439 --> 00:04:03,240
course right now, and there were some of the there

84
00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:04,879
were some things like this last week. I was like,

85
00:04:04,919 --> 00:04:05,919
oh wow, he said the thing.

86
00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's anyway, it's great, it's really really great.

87
00:04:08,879 --> 00:04:10,879
Speaker 2: And so we are actually offering a discount on that

88
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:11,319
as well.

89
00:04:11,479 --> 00:04:13,719
Speaker 4: So if you stand us to our cook right here,

90
00:04:14,599 --> 00:04:18,759
you can use the code DFW time to get ten

91
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,560
percent off of the constant back course.

92
00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,439
Speaker 2: So anyway, get a flyer, check these things out, check

93
00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,959
out our table in the back. And Jonathan over here.

94
00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,439
Thank you, Richard, thank you all.

95
00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:44,000
Speaker 5: Right, and so you're great for having fathers.

96
00:04:44,079 --> 00:04:45,519
Speaker 1: Thank you for the invitation.

97
00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,040
Speaker 2: It is always a joy to come protect with, to

98
00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:49,720
come to Data.

99
00:04:50,319 --> 00:04:52,759
Speaker 1: I'm starting to starting to think of it a little

100
00:04:52,759 --> 00:04:54,000
bit as my second home.

101
00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:55,639
Speaker 5: I really enjoy coming here.

102
00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,720
Speaker 2: And as Richard was presenting, I've really enjoyed my relationship

103
00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,480
with him. You know when he said he was when

104
00:05:03,519 --> 00:05:05,879
he said that he was reading the Sibilian Oracle, Because

105
00:05:06,079 --> 00:05:09,639
the Cibilian Oracle is a very very strange and very

106
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,279
niche thing that not many people know about, but it

107
00:05:12,439 --> 00:05:16,720
has it has a growth a very strong that' say,

108
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,040
importance in this idea of what we call universal history,

109
00:05:20,319 --> 00:05:20,759
which is.

110
00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,160
Speaker 6: The sense that some of the things that the ancients

111
00:05:24,199 --> 00:05:27,120
were talking about were actually leading to Christ, and that

112
00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,600
the early Christians and that the Church were able to

113
00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,199
discern that even in some of the pagan works, with

114
00:05:32,319 --> 00:05:34,839
some of the stranger aspects, they're able to say, oh wait,

115
00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,199
this is weird, but it also simultaneous points to Christ.

116
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,759
Speaker 1: And so these are the things that interest us. But

117
00:05:41,079 --> 00:05:42,480
today I'm willing.

118
00:05:42,319 --> 00:05:45,759
Speaker 2: To talk to you about art. I'm going to talk

119
00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,199
about a very particular moment in which we are now.

120
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,399
I want to say that we are in an extremely

121
00:05:53,759 --> 00:05:57,560
excited moment. A lot of people who are coming here

122
00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,240
know that so many people I know who are here

123
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:06,839
today are new converts, catechumen a lot of young people

124
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,680
who have discovered Orthodoxy and have seen in our holy

125
00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,720
tradition a key, you know, and a key that opens

126
00:06:16,879 --> 00:06:18,240
up so many.

127
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,160
Speaker 1: Aspects of the world.

128
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,879
Speaker 2: Of course our spiritual life, of course our movement, our

129
00:06:22,959 --> 00:06:26,879
struggle towards salvation through united with God and to Christ,

130
00:06:27,439 --> 00:06:32,680
but also something else, which is an entire network of

131
00:06:32,879 --> 00:06:35,720
relationships of beauty.

132
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,319
Speaker 1: In terms of the visuals, in terms of the music.

133
00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,360
Speaker 2: In terms of how these fit together, the architecture, you know,

134
00:06:43,519 --> 00:06:47,040
and so all of these things come as this revelation

135
00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,600
of something that we feel like we had slowly lost

136
00:06:51,959 --> 00:06:54,800
in the West, something that had been there in the.

137
00:06:54,879 --> 00:06:58,480
Speaker 1: Early centuries but that was slowly eroded. And so we

138
00:06:58,639 --> 00:07:03,560
have access to this whole language that is coming to us.

139
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,360
And when we discover this language, we.

140
00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,480
Speaker 2: Realize that it's not alien because some people say, oh,

141
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,639
you know, Orthodoxy, it's really interesting because it's foreign, it's Eastern,

142
00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,959
you know, it's kind of spicy, it's the Oriental, and

143
00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,439
there's a little bit of that which is true, and

144
00:07:22,519 --> 00:07:26,639
some people are attracted to that maybe mystery at the outset.

145
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,560
Speaker 1: But once you start to live in the Orthodox.

146
00:07:30,199 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 2: Church and in the life of an Orthodox Christian, you

147
00:07:33,319 --> 00:07:38,959
realize that this language is the language of Christianity. Like

148
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,360
I said, the one that was there in the East

149
00:07:41,519 --> 00:07:45,639
and the West and was slowly eroded in the West,

150
00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,879
and so it's a way back, not only in terms

151
00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,160
of faith, but back to our own roots, roots that

152
00:07:52,279 --> 00:07:52,959
we feel like.

153
00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,959
Speaker 1: We've lost over time. And so it's an.

154
00:07:57,879 --> 00:08:02,680
Speaker 2: Exciting time because all this energy is coming into the

155
00:08:02,839 --> 00:08:06,000
church and all this energy it's coming into the church

156
00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,920
at a moment what we feel like the culture around

157
00:08:10,079 --> 00:08:15,879
us is fragmented. We feel like our culture.

158
00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:22,839
Speaker 1: Music, cinema, everything is just running out right. The stories

159
00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:23,680
are running out.

160
00:08:23,959 --> 00:08:28,120
Speaker 2: Nobody knows what story to tell, nobody knows what images

161
00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:31,519
are important. Nobody is able to know what to listen to.

162
00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:36,879
You know, we are the music has been reduced to

163
00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,639
like mumble rap, like three beats that just are repeated,

164
00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,279
you know, after one after the other. You know, the

165
00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,759
cinema has been reduced to this basically propaganda.

166
00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,240
Speaker 1: And so, you know, on the one hand, we are grieving,

167
00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:53,679
but on the other hand.

168
00:08:53,519 --> 00:08:58,279
Speaker 2: It is it is exciting because when something decomposes, it

169
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,639
becomes earth in which to plant a new seed.

170
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,320
Speaker 1: You know, when the darkness grows, then the candle shines brighter.

171
00:09:06,879 --> 00:09:10,200
Speaker 2: And so it is an opportunity for creative people, for artists,

172
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,639
for people who want to be able to speak into.

173
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,960
Speaker 1: The chaos, to actually have a voice, and to actually make.

174
00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:25,120
Speaker 2: A melody which has been drowned out for centuries audible again.

175
00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:28,759
And not only for people in the church, of course,

176
00:09:28,879 --> 00:09:32,679
firstly for us in the church, but also for people outside,

177
00:09:34,039 --> 00:09:38,559
because there is something undeniable about beauty.

178
00:09:38,399 --> 00:09:41,799
Speaker 1: That no one can stop looking at once they get.

179
00:09:41,639 --> 00:09:45,679
Speaker 2: A glimpse of it. When somebody walks into a church

180
00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,360
and walks under the dawn, I don't care where you're from,

181
00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,639
I don't care what your background is. There is you

182
00:09:54,879 --> 00:09:59,799
cannot resist the effect that it will have under r

183
00:10:00,039 --> 00:10:02,480
And that is true of the music, and it is

184
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,320
true of the stories that we gather, the story of

185
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,879
the saints, the legends, even the weirder stuff that kind

186
00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:12,039
of creaks in the margins of our tradition.

187
00:10:12,279 --> 00:10:15,720
Speaker 1: All of these are an amazing network of things that we.

188
00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,600
Speaker 2: Can capture, all right, and so, but in order to

189
00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,519
do so, we have to gross understand the state of

190
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,000
the world in which you're in and then understand what

191
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,200
does it mean, what is it that we offer as

192
00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:32,799
an alternative.

193
00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,120
Speaker 1: To the current state.

194
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,159
Speaker 2: Like I said, we have to be able to understand

195
00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,360
the state of culture and the state of art in

196
00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:45,559
the contemporary world, because sometimes with all the best intentions

197
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,559
in the world, and even with all the beauty that's

198
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,399
around us and all the beauty that we're part of,

199
00:10:51,039 --> 00:10:54,840
we still have certain diseases inside us. We still have

200
00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,639
certain perverse ways in which we understand culture, we understand art,

201
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,120
we understand human.

202
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,639
Speaker 1: Making, and we can, if we're not careful, we can

203
00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:05,799
bring these into the church.

204
00:11:05,919 --> 00:11:08,720
Speaker 2: And we can also bring them into our desire to

205
00:11:08,879 --> 00:11:11,799
seek into the culture that's around us. So it's a

206
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,679
good idea to kind of do the first, do the

207
00:11:14,799 --> 00:11:19,720
medical inquiry and give the diagnosis, and then after that

208
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,919
we can look at how what the what I believe

209
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,879
how Orthodox art and the Orthodox vision is a cure

210
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,240
for that disease. And so one of the things that

211
00:11:29,399 --> 00:11:34,039
happened after the Middle Ages that led to us, and

212
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,559
it's a perverse element of some of the best art

213
00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:41,519
that the West has produced, is the idea of the

214
00:11:41,759 --> 00:11:45,399
artist and the public. Right, It's the idea of the

215
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:50,840
painter and the viewer, the performer and the public. We

216
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,240
have this notion, right, and so when we think of art,

217
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,759
we think of it in that way that we tend

218
00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:58,279
to think of it.

219
00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:00,360
Speaker 1: We think that, well, what is art?

220
00:12:00,519 --> 00:12:03,120
Speaker 2: I will go to a concert and then I will

221
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,720
sit and then people will play music for me. Then

222
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,720
I'll applaud, and then I'll leave. But first of all,

223
00:12:10,799 --> 00:12:13,759
there's nothing wrong with it. That is, that is fine.

224
00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,759
But there is an issue in that, in that problem,

225
00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:22,080
which is that at some point art becomes something like

226
00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:28,000
a consumable, becomes something to consume. Art is a product,

227
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,440
just like a can of coke, or just like a hamburger.

228
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,240
I get Mike, I got my I got my popcorn,

229
00:12:34,399 --> 00:12:37,519
and I got my movie, and I'm consuming this.

230
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:39,879
Speaker 1: So I am a I'm a I'm.

231
00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:43,919
Speaker 2: A client, right, I'm a buyer. And now this is

232
00:12:44,039 --> 00:12:48,159
the product that I'm purchasing in order to satisfy certain

233
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,200
needs that I have, whether it's to be distracted, whether

234
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,440
it's to be elated, or whatever it is that I

235
00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:54,159
want to feel.

236
00:12:54,919 --> 00:12:58,200
Speaker 1: Right, And this is the way that you understand art.

237
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,879
Speaker 2: Like everything, cinema, TV, all of that, all of that

238
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:09,240
falls into that category. Okay, And so the the the

239
00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:13,080
image of this notion of art as a consumable. I

240
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,840
love this because with all these layers of consumables in

241
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,720
this in this image, it's like, you know, we're gonna

242
00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,240
we're gonna have a great night of art and culture,

243
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,919
and we like go we go to the symphony play

244
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,399
Star Wars music, and so we have this beautiful experience

245
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:31,240
of listening to the.

246
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,519
Speaker 7: Music from a movie and you know, and it's it's wonderful,

247
00:13:35,639 --> 00:13:40,679
like it's great, it's fun okay, and it falls into

248
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:42,879
ultimately this also.

249
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:50,519
Speaker 1: This sense of fashion. Right, art becomes a slave to fashion.

250
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,519
Speaker 2: And what you realize is that we are obsessed with

251
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,919
novelty and we are looking for novelty and we have

252
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,080
a really eye mind their vision of novelty, and you

253
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:10,159
have this sense confused novelty with that dirty word progress. Right.

254
00:14:10,519 --> 00:14:12,000
Art has to move forward.

255
00:14:12,639 --> 00:14:14,840
Speaker 1: Art has to be new, it has to change, it

256
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,960
has to break boundaries and everything. But ultimately what you

257
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,120
notice is that really what it is, it's just fashion.

258
00:14:24,159 --> 00:14:26,879
I think fashion is another word for acidea.

259
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,159
Speaker 2: Right. Fashion is another word for distraction. Fascinating is another

260
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,960
word for the cycles of attention, right that you just

261
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,279
just you just have to keep like how can I

262
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,440
say this? Like the little thing has to come poke

263
00:14:38,519 --> 00:14:40,840
out again and shake at you so that you look

264
00:14:40,919 --> 00:14:43,200
at it and then you get bored, and then another

265
00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:45,120
thing comes up and pokes it and you're like, oh,

266
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,679
and then then you get bored. And that's what the

267
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,679
meal of fashion in which you're in, you know. And

268
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,200
what's interesting, Like I said that there was a time

269
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,559
when this was could have been convinced, and.

270
00:14:56,799 --> 00:15:01,320
Speaker 1: I totally understand how people kind of went into this thinking.

271
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,919
Speaker 2: Oh, this new movement of art, this new style of cinema,

272
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,720
this new way of feeling it, this new type of music,

273
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,399
it is breaking round that has progressed, it is progressed,

274
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:12,759
and this new thing.

275
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,080
Speaker 1: But now they're at the moment where.

276
00:15:14,919 --> 00:15:21,159
Speaker 2: We've seen now it's just all recycled, recycled, recycle, and

277
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,720
that whatever supposed novelty happened in culture happened for a

278
00:15:25,919 --> 00:15:28,360
very short bursts of time, maybe at the beginning of

279
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,320
the till century, maybe a little bit.

280
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,000
Speaker 1: After World War Two, and then now we're just basically recycling,

281
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,759
you know. And so I watched my daughters all of

282
00:15:36,799 --> 00:15:39,799
a sudden where jeans like certain the right, and I'm like,

283
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:41,240
wait a minute, but how did.

284
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,519
Speaker 2: The eighties come back? That? I thought?

285
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 1: I was like the most it keeps you anting.

286
00:15:48,559 --> 00:15:52,200
Speaker 2: Nobody does that now, but like you have these weird

287
00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:55,519
things that just keeps cycling back. They this, it's like,

288
00:15:55,679 --> 00:15:57,759
but it is just still that sidia that it's progressing.

289
00:15:58,159 --> 00:16:02,440
But now, because it's been such a long time that

290
00:16:02,639 --> 00:16:04,639
this way of thinking has been in the world, we

291
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,919
can actually see its fruits. Right. And you know about

292
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,600
flash fashion, right, this idea of fashion that lasts literally

293
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:14,759
for like three weeks.

294
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,600
Speaker 1: Right, Everybody goes on these websites and they like buy

295
00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:20,639
the latest, latest thing, and then they wear it for

296
00:16:20,759 --> 00:16:22,759
like two weeks and then if you still wear it

297
00:16:22,799 --> 00:16:25,399
after that, and they're not cool anymore. Right, And it's

298
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,399
just like these really really fast cycles of the Kenchin.

299
00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:32,879
But like I said, that is winding down because at.

300
00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:37,120
Speaker 2: Some point it just becomes a ridiculous You noted that

301
00:16:37,159 --> 00:16:40,600
it's just a ridiculous carnival wheel that's just sitting faster

302
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,360
and faster, and that there is a very middle first

303
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,799
of all actual novelty, and that a lot of novelty

304
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,480
is really just like a little clown going like this

305
00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:54,559
and shaking, you know, looking for scandal in order to

306
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,759
attract a tension, looking for some shocking thing that will

307
00:16:57,759 --> 00:17:00,759
attract a tentip. It it's been in fact, wait, because

308
00:17:01,279 --> 00:17:07,640
you know it's like the success the suggestion of sexuality

309
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,599
and like nineteen fifties rock and roll sounded really edgy

310
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,200
and really exciting. But by the time you're like wow,

311
00:17:14,279 --> 00:17:16,599
and you just got like basically a script show on

312
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,079
stage and just like this disgusting behavior.

313
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:21,279
Speaker 1: It just makes you want to vomit.

314
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,400
Speaker 2: Like you know, it's like it was like this idea

315
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,359
and I know this is pushing the boundary, like this

316
00:17:25,519 --> 00:17:28,200
is so exciting, and now it's just like Okay, yeah,

317
00:17:28,519 --> 00:17:32,480
thank you, but no, thank you enough, all right, you

318
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:33,599
need something.

319
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:33,960
Speaker 1: More than that.

320
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:37,799
Speaker 8: Hi, this is Sarah from Hamilton, and I'm very happy

321
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,759
to announce my first course was Symbolic World Scripture the

322
00:17:41,839 --> 00:17:45,200
Key to Reality. Over the span of five weeks, we

323
00:17:45,319 --> 00:17:47,920
will look at the scriptural vision of reality through the

324
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,839
lens of the Temple. We will see how all the

325
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,519
details of scripture orbit around the person of Jesus Christ,

326
00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,079
the eternal Word of God and archetype of the world.

327
00:17:58,839 --> 00:18:00,880
And we will see how that chris to logical vision

328
00:18:01,279 --> 00:18:04,720
firmly Earth's in place the concrete details of Israel's Torah

329
00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:08,359
and story. Through that lens, you will come to see

330
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,119
how meaning and matter intersect and intertwine not only in

331
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,039
the text of scripture, but in the very tapestry of

332
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:16,799
reality unveiled by the Bible.

333
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,039
Speaker 2: So in that sense, there is also, like I said,

334
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,960
this idea that related to the notion of consumable that

335
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,160
I've already been talking about is the notion of art

336
00:18:30,279 --> 00:18:34,480
ass revolution. And this is something that started to become

337
00:18:34,599 --> 00:18:37,240
very prominent, of course in the early twentieth century, with

338
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:42,720
all the painting movements you had Picasso, Humanism, Surrealism, Futurism,

339
00:18:42,839 --> 00:18:45,160
all of these artistic movements.

340
00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:51,240
Speaker 1: That presented themselves not in continuation of what was there before.

341
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,039
Speaker 2: Not as a taking forward of the flame in the

342
00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,400
sense of a memory of where I come from, that

343
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,599
is being pass down to the person after me.

344
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:03,519
Speaker 1: That's no what we call tradition.

345
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,799
Speaker 2: But no, we're going to snuff out that flame because

346
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:13,920
that flame is herning. That flame is you know, it's oppressive,

347
00:19:14,079 --> 00:19:17,960
because it stifles our creativity. We want to be free,

348
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,519
we want to do whatever we want. We want to

349
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,920
open up creativity in the most ways that we can,

350
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,559
and therefore we a vision are as revolution.

351
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 1: And if you think about it, if you listen to

352
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,960
cultural commentary, it just creeps in all the time.

353
00:19:36,519 --> 00:19:43,759
Speaker 2: People are always presenting our comany as revolution. But at

354
00:19:43,799 --> 00:19:48,640
the same time, the revolutionary trope basically played itself out

355
00:19:49,519 --> 00:19:53,599
in the early twentieth century. It was like a flash, right,

356
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,960
we went from an exciting revolution to this and it

357
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:05,039
happened in ten years super fast. Basically taking the most

358
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,440
sanger object, putting it in the gallery and saying this

359
00:20:08,599 --> 00:20:13,720
is our this is of course send de Champ, said

360
00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:15,440
de Chap's year low and to put out in the

361
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,960
gallery and see in nineteen seventeen, called the scandal, you know,

362
00:20:20,079 --> 00:20:22,640
because it was so revolutionary, called the scandal.

363
00:20:22,759 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 1: People broke it.

364
00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:26,559
Speaker 2: Sure, the artist was super happy, got attention. You know,

365
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,200
I'm breaking the rules. I'm part of the revolution. You know,

366
00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:33,400
But what about like now, it's been one hundred years

367
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:39,480
since this happened, and now what right? Now? What we

368
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,319
just repeat this revolutionary gesture over and over and over.

369
00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 7: How did you how did you think we could get

370
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,079
You never thought we could get a tradition of revolution.

371
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,640
Speaker 2: We have a tradition of revolution where we're just constantly

372
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,359
turning this wheel and revolving anywhere. I just watched on

373
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,440
the plane here I actually wife for the other Bob

374
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:02,200
really movie.

375
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:03,160
Speaker 1: A complete unknown.

376
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,279
Speaker 2: It's a good movie, is definitely worth it, Like, look

377
00:21:08,319 --> 00:21:15,039
at this he defied everyone to change everything, and in

378
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,359
the movie, that's how he's presented, you know, and it's

379
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:17,960
super interesting.

380
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:18,839
Speaker 1: I'm gonna spoil it for you.

381
00:21:19,799 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 2: Sorry, it's not.

382
00:21:20,559 --> 00:21:22,440
Speaker 1: It's not like it's a big mystery, right.

383
00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:24,640
Speaker 2: The whole movie is about how Bob Dylan gets trapped

384
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,160
in the world of folk music and he's kind of

385
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,799
looking at it to break out and to break out

386
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,119
of folk music and to move into rock so he

387
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,759
can change the world. And it ends where he's at

388
00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:37,359
this folk festival. I think it's a folk festival.

389
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,880
Speaker 9: It's a folk music festival, and the people are photo

390
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,519
music festival, are just telling them.

391
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,880
Speaker 2: Mister Dylan, this is a folk music festival. Like that's

392
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,000
the boundary of this place. If you want to come here,

393
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,559
like just play folk music. And he's like, oh man,

394
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:51,319
I can't do it.

395
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 1: You know rules, I'm gonna break old rules.

396
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 2: And it just I mean, I mean to me, it's

397
00:21:56,759 --> 00:22:00,119
just so tired. It's like, are we still telling this

398
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:06,000
story after one hundred years? Breaking the world is not complicated.

399
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,079
It's like, you know, it's not it's not a big mystery.

400
00:22:09,519 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 1: You have a you have a pattern and you break it.

401
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 2: I don't understand why that's like a it's actual all right, Okay,

402
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:18,440
I'm gonna toss.

403
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: Everything here right now. I'm gonna show you that.

404
00:22:20,319 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: I don't care about it. But you know, it's like,

405
00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:24,480
okay it and it's such it's such a trump like

406
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,519
you know what it looks like. Rebellion looks like very clearly,

407
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:30,160
you know, just.

408
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: Do something different, but that look doing something different looks

409
00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:34,519
the same.

410
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 2: It ends up just all looking the same.

411
00:22:37,839 --> 00:22:41,839
Speaker 1: Right, It's like, you know, pump roar, where's a uniform?

412
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 2: Folks? Like I can tell a pump roller from like

413
00:22:44,839 --> 00:22:49,400
a mile away because he's doing he looks like every

414
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:54,799
other rebel in the history of rebels. Okay, so, but

415
00:22:56,079 --> 00:23:01,359
it's really important to understand that, to understand. And the

416
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,759
thing is that it's still here today. This is an artist.

417
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,519
Speaker 1: His name is Away Away. He's probably one of the

418
00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:09,400
most important visual artists right now in the world. He's

419
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,599
a Chinese artist. And here he is being an artist.

420
00:23:14,799 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 2: He takes this beautiful vase, ancient you know, dynasty base

421
00:23:20,319 --> 00:23:22,359
and he drops it and breaks.

422
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 9: It, and that is his great act of revolution. This

423
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,759
wasn't made in nineteen seventeen. This is made like ten

424
00:23:30,839 --> 00:23:32,240
years ago, fifteen years ago.

425
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 2: You know. There's his most famous piece of art is him,

426
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,400
you know, flipping off the White House. If you seen

427
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,240
this thing, it's probably not. That's just a picture of

428
00:23:40,319 --> 00:23:44,440
him flipping off the weapons. All right, that's it our mister,

429
00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:47,799
A wayway, I guess, you know. But you have to

430
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,319
be able to attend to it. You have to be

431
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,279
able to notice it, because you'll hear it constantly. You'll

432
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,640
watch a movie and he goes, oh, this is this

433
00:23:54,759 --> 00:23:57,119
has never been done before. This is the This is a.

434
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,039
Speaker 7: Complete new way, completely revolution on how things were done before.

435
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,839
Speaker 2: But that's it's not even possible anymore. It's like everything

436
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,880
in that sense has been done the revolution. One of

437
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,759
the things, by the way, if you want to notice

438
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,640
interesting enough in terms of the revolutionary trope, is that

439
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:19,200
because it's just been done over and over and over

440
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:19,519
and over.

441
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:20,319
Speaker 1: Now, if you want to.

442
00:24:20,279 --> 00:24:24,759
Speaker 2: Make art that's revolutionary, you almost have to like remind

443
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,640
people of a world that was kind of orderly and

444
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,039
traditional and.

445
00:24:29,079 --> 00:24:32,519
Speaker 1: Then upend it. Right, So what are you doing.

446
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: You're just like recasting the tradition and then upending it

447
00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:38,880
and then recasting it and uphending it right.

448
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,319
Speaker 1: So it's it's a simple move, but it's one.

449
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,759
Speaker 2: Which people think is the deepest aspect of culture, and

450
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,039
that brings us towards this type of thing. That also

451
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,119
brings us to this notion that you see now, which

452
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,119
is that decide of art as social engineering or art

453
00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:03,759
as propaganda, because a lot of people intuitively at some

454
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,400
point realize that breaking things is not enough.

455
00:25:09,319 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: That you can't just be breaking things. So people want

456
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,519
to say, well, I want to make art that builds something.

457
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,759
Speaker 2: I want to get it right. I want to make

458
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,839
art that participates in something, participates in the project, participates

459
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,880
in building something. But what we end up with Saturday

460
00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:29,079
is something that war.

461
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,799
Speaker 1: It can to propaganda, and that has been in some ways.

462
00:25:32,599 --> 00:25:36,079
Speaker 2: The case, especially in the past two decades, especially in

463
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:41,000
CAU culture, we've kind of seen propaganda infiltrate the world

464
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,119
of art in ways that make.

465
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,759
Speaker 1: It just boring because nobody likes propaganda.

466
00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:50,799
Speaker 2: Actually, you know this is this is after I actually

467
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,240
decided to choose a version that is a second fary

468
00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:55,160
as poster.

469
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,519
Speaker 1: This is actually quite nice. It's not like it's not

470
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,000
the dribble of proper again, that we said, but you

471
00:26:01,079 --> 00:26:01,559
can see that.

472
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 2: It is fine art that is in the service of

473
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,200
a politician, right, that's fine art that's in the service

474
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,160
of politics, in the service of a social ideal. But

475
00:26:12,599 --> 00:26:16,799
there are so many examples of this, and I decided

476
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:28,279
to choose the deepest one. So and it's also reinvented

477
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,279
everything about like fashion and consumable as well.

478
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: It's all kind of layering into the same. And so

479
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,079
Kevin Smith.

480
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 2: Revamped he Man and for those I'm sure everybody who

481
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,799
knows who he Man is, he Man is a figure

482
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,640
of my childhood, expecting the internet, childhood with a toy

483
00:26:47,759 --> 00:26:49,880
it was like kind of like this barbarian figure and

484
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,799
they have toys, get animations, and we got this mythical world,

485
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,200
you know, obviously downstream from Tokyo and all of that

486
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,079
kind of mythical imagination, and you know, it was campy,

487
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,279
it was fun, whatever it was.

488
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:01,599
Speaker 1: It was the way to sell toys.

489
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,759
Speaker 2: We get until they decide to revamp this, obviously because

490
00:27:05,799 --> 00:27:08,519
now all the gen xers are adults with kids, so

491
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,559
it's like, can we need to make things for the

492
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,039
gen xers so that they.

493
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: Can buy it for the kids, and so that the

494
00:27:13,319 --> 00:27:15,079
kids like it. You know, that's how it works.

495
00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 2: A lot of recycled ips are about that, like capture

496
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,039
the gen xers so they they buy for their kids.

497
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:22,599
And so he does this.

498
00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: He Man's a poster like right areas he mean, you know,

499
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,839
it's got the power. He's in the middle.

500
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,079
Speaker 2: But when you watch it, what they do is they

501
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:38,920
replace he men with a female character. This has been

502
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,200
a trope that's just been going on over and over

503
00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:43,839
and over. It's like, you have this character, it's the

504
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,960
main character of Iraqi, and then you replace the character

505
00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:51,160
in the Iqi with a female photagonist.

506
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,839
Speaker 1: And of course the reason you want to do this

507
00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:00,559
is for revolutionary reasons. It is for or all of

508
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:01,839
these things that we know.

509
00:28:02,519 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: But what it ends up doing because it's not natural,

510
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,480
because it's forced, because it's like trying to inject something

511
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,279
into a story that has its own coherence, is that

512
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,839
it looks fake and it's boring. Right. Can you have

513
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:22,000
a story with a powerful female protagonist, an interesting female protagonist?

514
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,039
Of course you can't eving stories like that.

515
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: Forever. We have stories in the Bible like that.

516
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 2: We have great stories. It says that drove spices into

517
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,839
the heads of their enemy said in the Bible.

518
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: Right, So it's not that that doesn't exist. It's not

519
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:35,920
like we don't know about.

520
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:36,599
Speaker 10: That, you know.

521
00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 2: But if you try to inject that stuff into a story,

522
00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:44,480
kind of force it on us, right, it just doesn't work.

523
00:28:44,519 --> 00:28:47,839
It doesn't fit. And then we end up with a disaster,

524
00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:51,759
which is something that nobody cares about it and that

525
00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:56,880
has been for us to our great service because the

526
00:28:57,079 --> 00:29:02,279
past fifteen years twenty years have been an increasing amount

527
00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:07,160
of these propaganda type stories, this kind of effecting of

528
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,720
all the things that the gen xers cared about and

529
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:17,039
basically subverting them towards political means, making them boring, making

530
00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:19,200
them uninteresting, keep barn.

531
00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: To lose money, losing money, losing money.

532
00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:28,359
Speaker 2: You know, Disney is just losing money on every single project.

533
00:29:28,279 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: That it's doing.

534
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 2: They've bret Star Wars, they wreck they wrecked Marvel. Now

535
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,920
they've wrecked all the its that they own, trying to

536
00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:42,319
inject their political ideology that's kind of activistic propaganda stuff,

537
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,880
and now nobody cares anymore. And so someone who reached

538
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:55,079
the end and I think this, I think this.

539
00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:57,359
Speaker 1: Is the end.

540
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: I went to see this movie. I did. I went

541
00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:03,799
to see it in the.

542
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:09,119
Speaker 1: Cinema, and it was a very exciting thing to watch because,

543
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,039
yes it was born, yes it was injected with all

544
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:12,960
kinds of nonsense.

545
00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: The story didn't make any sense, but the reason why

546
00:30:16,359 --> 00:30:21,640
the story wouldn't make any sense was fascinating, because this

547
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,599
Snowide movie is like two movies fighting when You Kill Me.

548
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,599
Speaker 1: When you're watching it, you can tell like there's two

549
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,960
movies in there, and they're douging it out.

550
00:30:31,839 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 2: Because they tried to make it into a propaganda piece

551
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:39,920
and then they showed it to people. People were so

552
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,160
disgusted by it, and the fander was freaking out, and

553
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,440
so they panicked, and then they put it off for

554
00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:51,279
a year, and then people and they panicked again, and

555
00:30:51,359 --> 00:30:54,279
they put it off for another year, and they refilled

556
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,440
all the entire thing, made it into like a three.

557
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,559
Speaker 1: Hundred million dollars movie. And when you watch it, you

558
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:07,480
can see you can see that it's over right, because you.

559
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: Feel in it that they're like, damn it, we have

560
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,319
to reintroduce these things that we hate, is they're actually

561
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,000
part of the story. We actually have to have the

562
00:31:19,079 --> 00:31:22,839
prince kiss. Oh my goodness, it's so frustrating for that.

563
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:25,720
And they put it here you watch it. It's funny

564
00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:28,240
because it's like obviously that scene in the movie, in

565
00:31:28,559 --> 00:31:31,880
the original, in the fairy Tale, and in the early

566
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,000
Disney version, that's the culmination of the story where the prince.

567
00:31:34,839 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: Calms into you dead right. It's a resurrection moment and

568
00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:39,599
he kisses there and he brings her into the.

569
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: Kingdom of Ever. It's like the res a Christ. It's

570
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:44,279
like this beautiful moment in this movie.

571
00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:47,079
Speaker 1: It's like, hey kisses her and she kind of sits

572
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,720
up and it's like, yeah, they put him in there,

573
00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:49,839
but they really not on it.

574
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,359
Speaker 2: But like I said, it's a great sign. It's actually

575
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:01,000
a great sign of hope because it means that everybody

576
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:07,240
now knows that it's over. Now what do we do?

577
00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:13,119
Everybody's panic. I have some insights into that world a

578
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,640
little bit through friends and to people that I know, and.

579
00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:18,799
Speaker 1: Nobody knows what they're doing, Nobody knows what to do.

580
00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 2: Everybody's panicking, and everybody had all these studios, all have

581
00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:26,880
products that are in production right now that they.

582
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: Know are going to fail, but they have no choice.

583
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: They're already put the money in, they're already kind of

584
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,240
moving with it. Where the ball the balls already rolling.

585
00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:36,640
They can't stop it, and they know by the time

586
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,640
that it's out that it's going to fail. And everybody's

587
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,720
scrambling to figure out what do we do? And so

588
00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:48,440
this is it. This is an opportunity, and the question

589
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,519
is now, what or what does this have to do

590
00:32:51,680 --> 00:33:04,680
with us? Now we offer an alternative. Now, the problem

591
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:10,000
with this alternative is that it's a very very deep alternative.

592
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: It is one which in the sense of revolution, is

593
00:33:14,079 --> 00:33:16,759
deeper than the revolutions that we've seen for a very

594
00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:17,319
long time.

595
00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:22,559
Speaker 2: In the sense of how transformative is it is extremely transformative.

596
00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: But it means that we have to also understand that

597
00:33:26,079 --> 00:33:26,799
it won't.

598
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:29,559
Speaker 6: Be able to do the same things as the culture

599
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,240
that was there before us was able to do because

600
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:35,119
that we're not aiming for the same ideas.

601
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: Right. So, in the nineteenth century, Richard Wagner, who wrote

602
00:33:41,359 --> 00:33:45,799
Crazy Insane Operas, was looking and a lot of the

603
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,319
artists were looking for the perfect work.

604
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,519
Speaker 1: Of art, and they're kind of saying, what is the

605
00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:54,279
most complete work of art?

606
00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: Right?

607
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 6: And this is what Wagner called the Gazam's kunspan, which

608
00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:02,599
is deciding the complete art is the total artwork and

609
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:03,200
There was.

610
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,559
Speaker 2: Obviously argumentations about what is the most complete or what

611
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,039
is the art that contains the most in it, And

612
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:11,599
then Wagner can't.

613
00:34:11,599 --> 00:34:14,159
Speaker 1: Complete that it is opera And why was it?

614
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:14,639
Speaker 2: Opera?

615
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: Was opera because opera has all the arts draws.

616
00:34:19,079 --> 00:34:24,119
Speaker 2: Together in one art, because it's composition, right, It's a

617
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:29,719
visual composition. It has music, it has a narrative, it

618
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,679
has a senter of architecture right in habiting space, etc.

619
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: Etc. And so he thought, this is it. This is

620
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,840
the perfect art because it brings everything together.

621
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:46,199
Speaker 2: Some people have said after that, maybe the cinema is

622
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,280
actually design the Prince Fare, you know, because for the

623
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,280
same reason, because you can have you have the cinema

624
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,960
and you have the visual composition, right, you have the narrative,

625
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,880
you have the score, maybe you have even songs in it,

626
00:34:59,519 --> 00:35:01,960
and it kind it is an extension of this vision

627
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:04,679
of opera into the culture.

628
00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 1: Now, the question is what is it missing.

629
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:16,599
Speaker 2: It's missing one essential thing, very essential thing. Actually, it's

630
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,239
missing the thing that I hinted at at the outset.

631
00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:29,280
It's missing participation. That's what it's missing. It's missing that

632
00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:31,679
it's not me sitting.

633
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: There watching the story, but that it's me in the story, right,

634
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:43,719
that's the dedans punta, And that's what liturgy offers because

635
00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:45,960
in the literagy we have all this.

636
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: We have music, we have a visual, We even have smell,

637
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,519
which they don't have in the in the in the UH,

638
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:54,360
in the opera.

639
00:35:55,119 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: UH.

640
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 2: We have the music, we have the architecture, we have

641
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,000
the smell, and we have all that can eat. You know,

642
00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:03,519
we even use our chance where we eat the body

643
00:36:03,559 --> 00:36:06,280
of Christ. So all of the senses, all of the

644
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,199
cultural references are all drawn together. But at the same time,

645
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,400
we are inside. We are not watching it from the inside.

646
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,320
We are not consumers. We are not the public, right,

647
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:28,239
we are in the in the liberty and so so.

648
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,239
And you can understand, like you know, for example, like

649
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,159
the the it's okay, like we.

650
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 5: Have we have cues here.

651
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: I've used in my trade too.

652
00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 2: But you can kind of understand the existence to pews

653
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,599
in the Orthodox tradition where they're saying, this is.

654
00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: Not a show, folks, like this is your life. This

655
00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:45,039
is your story.

656
00:36:45,599 --> 00:36:48,039
Speaker 2: It's the story the thing that you're in. It's something

657
00:36:48,079 --> 00:36:51,440
that you participated. You are an actor, obviously not in

658
00:36:51,519 --> 00:36:54,880
the center theater, but you are an actor in the

659
00:36:55,039 --> 00:36:56,559
grand story.

660
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: Okay, and so that changes a lot.

661
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,199
Speaker 2: Now it doesn't mean that you have to condemn obviously

662
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,960
the more passive aspect of modern art. It doesn't mean

663
00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:09,559
that now going to the movies is evil or that

664
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,599
you know, I don't know whatever, like listening to music

665
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,440
is bad. And I'm not suggesting any of that. But

666
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:20,920
what I am suggested is that understanding that and fully living.

667
00:37:20,559 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: That is like a root for everything else. It's like

668
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:30,800
a foundation that is anchored in the highest thing that.

669
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: If then it's going to move out into the world

670
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,559
and then participate in the more you know, secondary arts

671
00:37:38,039 --> 00:37:40,320
like visual art and all the things that are find

672
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,000
that they exist. It creates this anchor which will help

673
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,920
to prevent the decomposition that you saw happen over the

674
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,920
last one hundred years, because you have to realize that

675
00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:56,559
the way that it was set up in the story,

676
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,920
when it's already in a revolutionary way and.

677
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,679
Speaker 1: You can listen to him right, you can even here.

678
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,599
Speaker 2: I remember listening to some of the new atheists talking

679
00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:10,280
about that, and someone asked them, you know about the

680
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,239
sense of mystery and the sense of of you know,

681
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,000
of narrative and all of these things that the atheists,

682
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:16,639
how do they get it?

683
00:38:16,679 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 1: And they said, well, you know it's no good.

684
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: We just get from art, you reading novels.

685
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,639
Speaker 1: We then we go to the museum.

686
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: We do that, you know. And so it was presented

687
00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:32,239
in the development as this great secular replacement for the libergy.

688
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,679
Speaker 1: Right and some and some like.

689
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: There's an interesting text by halabach To's the French communist

690
00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:43,840
mid twentieth century, who wrote about going to the cinema

691
00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:47,760
and he explained how the cinema had subverted the church

692
00:38:48,199 --> 00:38:50,159
and he was still celebrating it like he was a

693
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,679
great He said, yeah, we did it. We created we

694
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,039
created a secular communion, you know, where we all come together.

695
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: And the old cinema if you don't, if you don't remember,

696
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:00,599
you curtains.

697
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 2: They could pull the curtains and there was like a light,

698
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,559
you know, the light was down and like the seats

699
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:09,400
were more like cinema seat, like like theater seats. And

700
00:39:09,559 --> 00:39:11,840
with the sense of like this moment of awt of

701
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,199
wonder that we participated. And the thing is that if

702
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,800
that's not anchored in something deeper, what happened.

703
00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: Is what happened.

704
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: It just decomposes, It decomposes and decomposed and decomposes, and

705
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,880
then you're sitting at home in your pandoma watching Netflix

706
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,960
because that's the end of that, right, like you thought

707
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,679
it would be, We're all going to come together and

708
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,559
celebrate the greatest achievements of human life. And it's like, no,

709
00:39:34,519 --> 00:39:38,679
you're gonna be watching some stupid reality TV show you

710
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:39,599
know at night.

711
00:39:39,679 --> 00:39:41,639
Speaker 1: That's that's the end of that, right. It's like, it's

712
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:42,440
not what you thought.

713
00:39:43,559 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 2: And so.

714
00:39:45,519 --> 00:39:48,679
Speaker 1: I look at our fishes. Then means that we.

715
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: Need to embrace the kind of hierarchy also of understanding,

716
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,639
which is that we have to be able to know

717
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,519
and to remember or.

718
00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: To participate in this ba that the turgical art is

719
00:40:03,039 --> 00:40:07,440
always the highest art. And why is it the highest art?

720
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,400
Because it is the art that is dedicated to God.

721
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,000
It's not dedicated to the human condition.

722
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,079
Speaker 2: It's not dedicated to the revolution, it's not dedicated to money,

723
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,719
it's not dedicated to all these secondary things which infect

724
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,960
the world of culture and affect the world of art.

725
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,960
It is the everything.

726
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: It is the act of painting, It is the act

727
00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:31,039
of singing.

728
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 2: It is the act of making furniture, of making vessels,

729
00:40:35,039 --> 00:40:38,159
it's the act of making clothing. It's the act of eating.

730
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,119
It's all the things that humans do now brought together,

731
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,400
and it offers to the highest.

732
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: So it becomes a stable and real anchor for all

733
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,480
human here, for all human.

734
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 2: Making, for all human activity, and it holds it together

735
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:55,920
in the highest.

736
00:40:55,599 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 1: And guarantees by our participation in it and our attention, right,

737
00:41:01,159 --> 00:41:03,119
our memory or at.

738
00:41:03,079 --> 00:41:07,559
Speaker 2: Least the possibility of always remembering what is the highest

739
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:14,679
version of these actions, right, And it's not just about art.

740
00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:17,159
Like when you sit at home and you eat as.

741
00:41:17,039 --> 00:41:21,159
Speaker 1: A family, if you remember that the highest.

742
00:41:21,039 --> 00:41:23,119
Speaker 2: Eating is the one that you come take at the

743
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:27,880
childte here, and that your participation in your family meal

744
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,800
is downstreamed from that, and you pray before.

745
00:41:30,599 --> 00:41:33,559
Speaker 1: You eat because you remember how it all lines up

746
00:41:33,599 --> 00:41:37,679
in the right way. That it anchors that together. That's

747
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,199
true of all human activity.

748
00:41:39,679 --> 00:41:41,519
Speaker 2: Right, It anchers it and you can see, like if

749
00:41:41,559 --> 00:41:42,000
you could just.

750
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: Pay attention to how history develop, you can see what happened.

751
00:41:48,039 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 2: Right. The artists.

752
00:41:52,159 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 11: Move from writing and music to God, to writing opera,

753
00:41:57,199 --> 00:42:02,360
to writing nationalistic type anthems or whatever, to writing pop

754
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:08,280
music to writing mumble rap, all.

755
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,079
Speaker 1: The way tumble down into just talking about nonsense.

756
00:42:12,679 --> 00:42:15,079
Speaker 2: You know, and that's how that's how it falls. But

757
00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:17,679
it's related in terms of a curve, right, And we're

758
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,960
lucky because we're at the end of it. So there

759
00:42:21,079 --> 00:42:23,039
was any doubt at the beginning, and we don't have

760
00:42:23,159 --> 00:42:25,719
to be angry at the people who let maybe let

761
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,920
themselves decisions at the time. Now it's like, come on,

762
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:34,199
we've seen where it leads, like we know what happens, right,

763
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:39,719
And so this idea that liturgical art is the highest art,

764
00:42:41,079 --> 00:42:44,880
that it is the source you could say, of the

765
00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:48,840
highest form in terms of the language, in terms of

766
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,360
the patterns that it invokes, in terms of the way

767
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,800
that it's strange things together, in terms of the storytelling

768
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,400
all of this stuff. And it doesn't mean that it's

769
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,760
the most but word am I going to use doesn't

770
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,559
mean that it's the most exciting.

771
00:43:05,519 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: In the in the more mundane sense.

772
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 2: And you have to be careful about that because the

773
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:13,559
highest does it mean that it's the most entertaining. Let's

774
00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:17,079
say that way, so hey, it can be entertained, but

775
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,719
the highest thing doesn't have to be the most entertaining.

776
00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:22,960
But if you anchor music, for example, in the society

777
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,440
in liturgical art, then you will have all the other

778
00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:30,559
you'll have entertaining music, you'll have all kinds of things.

779
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,400
You'll even have bar songs. All of that stuff will exist.

780
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,880
But it'll it will stop. It will hold it together

781
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:39,159
so that it doesn't.

782
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,159
Speaker 1: Absolutely collapse into complete nonsense. Right, It will kind of

783
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,840
create this cohesion. And so liturgical art I think has

784
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:48,719
to be the highest art.

785
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,119
Speaker 2: It's orthodo Christian. It's not hard to come to church.

786
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,400
We venerated the ionist, we listen to the music, we sing,

787
00:43:54,679 --> 00:43:57,480
we participate in. It doesn't mean that every artist has

788
00:43:57,519 --> 00:44:00,320
to be a liturgical artist, not at all. That's a

789
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,079
really big danger for especially for Orthodox converts. Every Orthodox

790
00:44:04,159 --> 00:44:08,280
convict with a little bit of creative inclination, how would

791
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,320
you feel an aconographer? Gaming? And glory to God if

792
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:12,840
that's for you.

793
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 1: But it's not necessary. Not every person in the church

794
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,840
test to be an iconographer and so, but we still

795
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,079
have to recognize that that is the anchor and that

796
00:44:24,159 --> 00:44:28,039
holds it together. This is an example I did.

797
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 2: I put up an example of a reliquary that I

798
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:36,679
carved with an architect and designer and rule for the

799
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:42,039
Russian family, our family, and you can see that you

800
00:44:42,119 --> 00:44:44,599
know it has a certain it has a function, it

801
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,599
holds the relics. It's not just a visual anking, not

802
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,559
something that you put in a museum. It actually serves

803
00:44:51,679 --> 00:44:55,880
for real purpose. But it's also meant to be beautiful. Well,

804
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,239
may to be a celebration of the best.

805
00:44:59,079 --> 00:45:00,559
Speaker 1: Things that we can make.

806
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,039
Speaker 2: And if you want to understand, a lot of people

807
00:45:04,119 --> 00:45:07,320
when they look at what I do, so people get

808
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,679
confused because you're like, what are you doing exactly, Jonathan?

809
00:45:10,159 --> 00:45:13,159
You do this icon curving, but now you're putting out

810
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,400
comic books and graphic novels and T shirts, and it's like,

811
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:18,239
what is happening?

812
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: Like what's the thing?

813
00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:21,599
Speaker 2: Like what's going on? And I would say that if

814
00:45:21,639 --> 00:45:25,599
you want to understand the the reason why I do this,

815
00:45:26,039 --> 00:45:31,000
do this is because I am trying to see how

816
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,639
what I just been have been talking about, how I

817
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,920
can participate in its embodiment, which is, how can I

818
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:46,320
take the ten fifteen years that I to study orthodox iconography,

819
00:45:46,559 --> 00:45:50,639
medieval art, medieval indugery, all the tropes of that, all

820
00:45:50,679 --> 00:45:54,719
of the patterns in that language, and how now can

821
00:45:55,039 --> 00:46:00,440
I apply it lower and lower on the hierarchy, let's say,

822
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,599
so that it reaches all the way into popular objects,

823
00:46:05,639 --> 00:46:06,320
popular earth.

824
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: Now, how do we do that?

825
00:46:08,519 --> 00:46:11,679
Speaker 2: That's one of the things that fascinated for the most, because.

826
00:46:11,679 --> 00:46:15,639
Speaker 1: Like I said, if the Orthodox, all.

827
00:46:15,679 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 2: Orthodox traditional countries, they don't just make icons.

828
00:46:20,079 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 1: They have all kinds of things.

829
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: They have their own national legends, they have their bards,

830
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,159
they have their songs, they have secular images. All of

831
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,559
that is kind of part of the miss. So if

832
00:46:32,599 --> 00:46:35,760
we're going to participate in a renewal and culture, how

833
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,239
do we now embody that right? And I think that

834
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,679
right now is what is exciting because as everything tumbles

835
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,639
and everything falls and everything kind of collapses, there is

836
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:52,800
now a you could say, an openness, an openness to

837
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,519
a new story, like a secret desire for a new story,

838
00:46:56,599 --> 00:47:00,920
a secret desire for a new image, something that will revive,

839
00:47:01,199 --> 00:47:05,480
not the revolutionary aspect, AH say it this way, a

840
00:47:05,599 --> 00:47:10,400
desire to remember, right, a desire now to remember instead

841
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,760
of living this chaos of revolution because people don't know

842
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:15,599
who they are anymore?

843
00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: So how do I now remember?

844
00:47:19,599 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 2: And this is what I think, in opposition to the

845
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,920
way I presented you with the vision of art the

846
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:33,639
modern world, I think that orthodox art can present free alternatives,

847
00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:35,719
which is not art.

848
00:47:35,679 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 1: As a consumable, but art as application, right. Art also

849
00:47:43,079 --> 00:47:44,639
as not as.

850
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 2: Revolution but as celebration, right. And then also art as

851
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:57,639
a type of enlightenment. Enlightenment not in the modern enlightenment way,

852
00:47:58,159 --> 00:48:02,159
but in the sense of bringing light to people, not darkness,

853
00:48:02,519 --> 00:48:06,840
not cynicis not just the passions, but bringing something that

854
00:48:07,039 --> 00:48:10,199
elevates that, right, it makes them.

855
00:48:10,119 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: More than what they were before. And because like I said,

856
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:13,719
we're kind.

857
00:48:13,599 --> 00:48:15,519
Speaker 2: Of at the end where everybody is confused and nobody

858
00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:19,719
knows who they are, then people are also open and

859
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:20,760
curious about that.

860
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:22,159
Speaker 6: How do we do that?

861
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 2: So of course liturgy answers all these questions people, that's

862
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:26,440
all that you know.

863
00:48:26,599 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: But like I said, you know, here we are in church,

864
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:29,000
and of course.

865
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 2: Glory to God.

866
00:48:29,679 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: That's the most important part.

867
00:48:31,199 --> 00:48:33,679
Speaker 2: But then if we're going to speak out into the culture,

868
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,599
if we're going to participate in the cultural forum that

869
00:48:36,599 --> 00:48:37,320
are around.

870
00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 1: Us, what ways can we do it that we encourage

871
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:42,519
these three And.

872
00:48:44,079 --> 00:48:47,119
Speaker 2: At least for now, the thing that I'm excited about

873
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,079
doing is kid's books.

874
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: And again, a lot of people like Josh, why are

875
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,960
you bringing the kid's books and fairy pales and something?

876
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,800
Because I think that this is an immediate it's an

877
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:57,400
easy one.

878
00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 2: It's actually the easiest one.

879
00:48:59,079 --> 00:49:01,599
Speaker 1: This is the easy one to do the harder ones later, the.

880
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:06,599
Speaker 2: Easiest one because it's a children's book. A book for

881
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,679
children is a way you can access all three of

882
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,480
those right away. Because reading a book to a child

883
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:20,000
is participation. Right. You sit in the evening before a

884
00:49:20,079 --> 00:49:21,880
child goes to bed, You sit in bed, You open

885
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,599
the book, and the parent reads the story to the child.

886
00:49:26,119 --> 00:49:29,079
Speaker 1: They are engaging in a relationship, right.

887
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 2: They are not just treating this as a moment of

888
00:49:32,559 --> 00:49:35,760
performer and public but it is a true moment of

889
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:40,480
affection and neutrality that is being experienced. It's a little.

890
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: Liturgical experience, right, to read a story to a child.

891
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,679
Speaker 2: And so I thought, like, this is an easy way

892
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,920
to go about this is and move into this space

893
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,079
without without slipping too much.

894
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: And so what do we do then to make it celebratory.

895
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 2: It's the same. So let's take the old stories.

896
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:01,599
Speaker 7: Now.

897
00:50:01,679 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 2: The old stories have been forgotten, not only for God,

898
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,119
they've been ruined for the past.

899
00:50:06,199 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: Like I said, doesn't even want to tell them anymore.

900
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,159
Speaker 2: They actually hate the stories that they're characters are.

901
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: They hate the stories. There white they don't want to

902
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,360
tell it. They hate the beauty.

903
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 2: They actually despise the stories that they've been characters of.

904
00:50:20,519 --> 00:50:24,920
The thing is that those stories are a possibility of

905
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,480
remembering because they are even the fact that they have

906
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,559
been around for hundreds of years, if not millennia, they

907
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:37,360
hold in them something a little similar to our orthodox tradition.

908
00:50:37,639 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 1: It's obviously not at the same level as the sacred.

909
00:50:40,519 --> 00:50:43,639
Speaker 2: Tradition, but it is a form of tradition, a form

910
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,079
of passing down, a form of remember right. The fairy

911
00:50:47,119 --> 00:50:51,159
tales exist in this kind of vague medieval world, that

912
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,199
is the world of the ancients that is being brought

913
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,400
back and even remembered today, just in the same way

914
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,719
that we remember the lives of the saints, all these

915
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,119
martyrs in the early centuries, that we feel like we

916
00:51:03,199 --> 00:51:06,599
are connected to them in our celebration, in our memory

917
00:51:06,639 --> 00:51:06,920
of them.

918
00:51:07,559 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 1: This is an easy way to do it.

919
00:51:12,039 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 2: And like I said, how then to tell those stories

920
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,679
in the way that's enlightened Because in the past decade

921
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,679
the fairy tales have been told. But what is happening

922
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,039
in those fairy tales is that they've been told more

923
00:51:25,079 --> 00:51:28,639
and more cynically. You know, with this weird kind of

924
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,119
perverse division in the story. I think Shrek is like

925
00:51:32,199 --> 00:51:35,679
the best example, you know, where basically you have thiss

926
00:51:35,679 --> 00:51:39,440
like mission mash of fairy tales and the higher herdings

927
00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:42,760
of the story is to mock it and to turn

928
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,760
it upside down, right, And if you don't think that's true,

929
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,480
it's actually contained right at the very beginning of the story,

930
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:49,920
the very beginning of Shrek.

931
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't remember how it starts. It's kind

932
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:53,199
of little vulgar.

933
00:51:53,639 --> 00:51:57,199
Speaker 2: But Shrek goes into the outhouse and he opens up

934
00:51:57,199 --> 00:51:58,039
the fairy tale book.

935
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: Then he rips the page out and he uses it

936
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,719
to clean himself before he walks out.

937
00:52:05,679 --> 00:52:07,639
Speaker 2: He basically wipes himself with the fairy tale.

938
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,559
Speaker 1: It's like, that's it, if you want, that's a beautiful,

939
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,119
kind of beautiful, ugly.

940
00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:18,840
Speaker 2: Little synthesis of all the storytelling that's been going on.

941
00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 12: During the past twenty twenty years or maybe more, you know,

942
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:24,920
And so you can see it how this kind of

943
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,400
cynical approach and so but it's cynicism, like I said,

944
00:52:28,599 --> 00:52:29,239
like revolution.

945
00:52:29,519 --> 00:52:33,800
Speaker 2: At some point it runs out because now we don't

946
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,079
even remember why we cared enough about the stories to

947
00:52:36,119 --> 00:52:38,599
make fun of him. So now we're gonna keep making

948
00:52:38,639 --> 00:52:40,639
fun of something, but we don't even know what the

949
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,480
value of it is that we're making fun of. So

950
00:52:43,679 --> 00:52:46,000
now is the time to retell the story. And that's

951
00:52:46,039 --> 00:52:49,400
what excites me right now, to say, can we retell

952
00:52:49,519 --> 00:52:52,639
the story in a way that is celebration in him?

953
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:57,039
And I remember when I started studying the history of

954
00:52:57,119 --> 00:53:01,199
art in the history of culture, I remember reading authors who.

955
00:53:01,159 --> 00:53:07,599
Speaker 1: Complained about using poetry, and they complained about it because

956
00:53:07,599 --> 00:53:12,639
they said, the businessing poetry is only PANAGEI is Byzantine.

957
00:53:12,639 --> 00:53:14,440
Poetry is just celebration.

958
00:53:15,599 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: It's so annoying. It's like everything about it is always

959
00:53:18,559 --> 00:53:24,199
celebrating something. It's like, you know, yeah, that's actually the point.

960
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,599
It's actually the point of art. It's what you know.

961
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,880
All Asian cultures, that is mostly the way they understood

962
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:35,119
the art. They understood that the celebration as a memory,

963
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,400
as a participation in the story that made us who

964
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:38,760
we are.

965
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: So can we do that again?

966
00:53:40,599 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 2: Now? I think the answer is, I think it's exactly

967
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,320
the right time to do that, you know. And we

968
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:50,559
also noticed that the children's books have also been completely

969
00:53:51,159 --> 00:53:57,199
infected in every city way you think this is a joke.

970
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:58,159
This is not Joe.

971
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:02,079
Speaker 1: This is a real best selling children's books. So the

972
00:54:02,159 --> 00:54:07,519
progressive of the future. It's eats, all right, So now

973
00:54:07,559 --> 00:54:09,000
how do we do it in practice?

974
00:54:10,079 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 2: This has been the thing that kind of I've been

975
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:19,400
asking myself, is how do we integrate at every level,

976
00:54:20,079 --> 00:54:22,840
not just you take a fairy tale, you tell it

977
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,840
in a certain way, you tell it in a celebratory manner,

978
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:27,079
not in a physical way.

979
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: You tell it in a way that hopes to be

980
00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:32,400
able to enlighten the reader.

981
00:54:33,039 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 2: One of the things I like about modern most postmodern,

982
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:41,559
naturally storytelling is that, like in Track, for example, one

983
00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:43,360
of the thing that's interesting about it is that they

984
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,199
have a kids reading and they have an adult reading.

985
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:47,599
Speaker 1: You notice that in the.

986
00:54:47,639 --> 00:54:51,199
Speaker 2: Most popular kids movies they do that they have basically

987
00:54:51,599 --> 00:54:53,119
a way for the kids to do it, and then

988
00:54:53,159 --> 00:54:54,679
they have a way for the adults to do it.

989
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:57,920
You know, Sadly, the adults version is always like dirty

990
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,880
jokes that for some reason, it's like, I guess that's

991
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:01,960
a they think adults care about. It's just like some

992
00:55:02,119 --> 00:55:04,480
kind of sexual innuendo. But I felt that's actually a

993
00:55:04,519 --> 00:55:08,360
really interesting idea, Like can't we tell the fair tale

994
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,199
in a way that the child is hearing a story

995
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,000
that is just a beautiful, simple story that they enjoy,

996
00:55:14,119 --> 00:55:15,039
but the adult.

997
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,760
Speaker 6: Is going like, oh my goodness, that's given the insight

998
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,000
into why this story is reported.

999
00:55:21,519 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: And so that's the approach that we're trying to to

1000
00:55:23,519 --> 00:55:25,800
take to the fairy tales, like can we do it now?

1001
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:31,199
Speaker 2: In terms of visuals, one of my great like projects

1002
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:33,119
of my life, like going to my great fantasy, is

1003
00:55:33,519 --> 00:55:39,639
that I want to see the byzantine stylization in pop culture,

1004
00:55:40,559 --> 00:55:44,519
like I want to see the beauty of the icons,

1005
00:55:44,639 --> 00:55:48,679
the beauty of the way that things are represented brought

1006
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,079
into pop culture, not in a way that's sacriligious, because

1007
00:55:52,079 --> 00:55:53,440
that could happen, like you could do it in a

1008
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,320
way that we was sacriligious, but in a way that

1009
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:59,199
it's perfectly adapted to the story and that points in

1010
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,039
memory and participation back to the prototypes, which are is

1011
00:56:03,199 --> 00:56:06,960
the church. So we've been doing it for those who

1012
00:56:07,039 --> 00:56:09,159
saw this the white book that is out there, we

1013
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,480
already had one pass at it, uh and the artist

1014
00:56:12,519 --> 00:56:15,679
head at Pollington who in the meantime, since you did

1015
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,039
Snow White and also obviously converted to Orthodoxy and then

1016
00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:20,280
and then has.

1017
00:56:20,199 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: Now been taking classes learning. I've been avm from such

1018
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,119
an amazing artist and he just picked it up like

1019
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,679
so fast. And so now in this in this new

1020
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,039
book that's coming out in Bunzel, it's really like the

1021
00:56:32,119 --> 00:56:33,320
next levels. So I'm going to show you some of

1022
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,119
those images. That's how I'm going to finish this. I

1023
00:56:35,119 --> 00:56:37,159
want to I want to give you the very first

1024
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:38,480
glimpse at Rabunzel.

1025
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 2: We haven't showed these images to anyone before, I understand,

1026
00:56:42,639 --> 00:56:43,400
shouldn't see you for.

1027
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: The first time.

1028
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,199
Speaker 2: So the key there came to us and this I

1029
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:50,480
think it was Headed that found that there's a Russian

1030
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,800
school of painting called the Palette school of painting that

1031
00:56:55,159 --> 00:56:59,000
when we're eving issues in Russia happened and the icon

1032
00:56:59,039 --> 00:57:02,159
paintings weren't allowed to paint icons anymore. They were kind

1033
00:57:02,159 --> 00:57:05,199
of like the troubles, and they didn't know what to do,

1034
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,639
like how do we continue to live? What do we

1035
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,039
think that the make What they started doing is they

1036
00:57:10,079 --> 00:57:15,079
started taking their skills and then applying them to secular subjects.

1037
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:21,679
Speaker 1: And there's these amazing lacquered boxes that they would create

1038
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:24,159
and they would sell the visitors like there was a whole.

1039
00:57:24,079 --> 00:57:28,119
Speaker 2: Market for these things where they if you look carefully,

1040
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,039
like you can see that the stylization, the way that

1041
00:57:32,159 --> 00:57:34,960
the clothing is made, the way that the faces are made,

1042
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:41,920
the space. You know, yeah, downstream could say from icons,

1043
00:57:42,159 --> 00:57:46,199
it's not exactly icons, there's something more fantastical about it.

1044
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:48,559
Speaker 1: There's something that's looser or something that they would never

1045
00:57:48,679 --> 00:57:49,559
dare do in.

1046
00:57:49,679 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 2: Like an icon. But the memory is there, right, the

1047
00:57:54,159 --> 00:57:59,000
sense of participation, the sense of connection is there. Here

1048
00:57:59,119 --> 00:57:59,920
are a few.

1049
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: More images, and so you can see that the use

1050
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,800
of space is very similar to the way that the

1051
00:58:07,079 --> 00:58:09,599
icons will painted. It's kind of vertical space.

1052
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:15,199
Speaker 2: Also, the capacity to show several scenes simultaneously in the

1053
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,800
same image. These are actually like the type of visual

1054
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:24,320
reprementation that medieval isant team are developed is very sophisticated, actually,

1055
00:58:24,599 --> 00:58:28,360
you know. And so taking that a sophisticated capacity to

1056
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,960
inter interspersed narrative and to create different spaces, this idea

1057
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,679
of showing the inside from the outside, creating architectural space.

1058
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,400
And you see that also in icons, all of this

1059
00:58:39,599 --> 00:58:42,360
kind of movement into images that are.

1060
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: Now fairy tale stories that are folks stories.

1061
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:53,199
Speaker 2: Sometimes history, celebration of important figures, and so here is

1062
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:59,920
of course the fire Earth and the beautiful lack of

1063
00:59:00,119 --> 00:59:04,159
box of the firebird. So we decided, let's try to

1064
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:11,320
take this style. But we're not and this is important

1065
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:18,360
for all the artists here. Tradition is not pastiche right,

1066
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,000
Tradition is not nostalgia.

1067
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 1: Those two things are different.

1068
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:27,239
Speaker 2: The idea is not to simply repeat things from the

1069
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:28,880
past for the sake of repeating them.

1070
00:59:29,199 --> 00:59:33,159
Speaker 1: That is as dead as the revolutionary trope.

1071
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:38,239
Speaker 2: Right. The idea is to integrate the language. Right.

1072
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,559
Speaker 1: You learn the language, you integrate.

1073
00:59:41,119 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 2: It, and then you apply it in a way that

1074
00:59:44,119 --> 00:59:47,880
is appropriate to the moment, to the space, to the image,

1075
00:59:48,199 --> 00:59:50,760
whether it's the music, whether it is in whatever.

1076
00:59:51,239 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 1: That is true living tradition, right.

1077
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:58,519
Speaker 2: That is the souls of people being transmitted, that the bread,

1078
00:59:58,679 --> 01:00:01,480
the spirit of people being trans from one person to

1079
01:00:01,559 --> 01:00:05,440
the other, you know. And so we saw we also

1080
01:00:05,639 --> 01:00:10,960
want there's these beautiful nineteenth early nineteenth century, early twentieth

1081
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:17,039
century kind of medieval revival style that happened in the West,

1082
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:21,400
you know, these type of illustrations that have this medieval scent,

1083
01:00:21,519 --> 01:00:24,360
but they're also taken into attack realism and so here

1084
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,760
is the battle of a Russian illustrator, Ivan Milidin, who

1085
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:33,480
also is doing this in a vibrant but you can

1086
01:00:33,559 --> 01:00:36,840
see it's far more modern, and it's it's actually integrated

1087
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,360
some elements of modernism, like the influence of Japanese print,

1088
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:44,119
kind of how it connects this kind of vertical space

1089
01:00:44,199 --> 01:00:47,360
that that Russian iconography had developed.

1090
01:00:47,639 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 1: And so we're like, we want to make something that

1091
01:00:50,639 --> 01:00:52,480
is steeped in this.

1092
01:00:52,599 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 2: Type of imagery but also has taken into account, let's say,

1093
01:00:56,719 --> 01:00:59,280
modern illustration and modern sensibilities.

1094
01:00:59,639 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 1: And so here is our first image.

1095
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:13,639
Speaker 2: And so here is our witch, who's holding and she

1096
01:01:13,719 --> 01:01:19,599
holding he's holding the rapunzel, he's holding the cabbage in

1097
01:01:19,719 --> 01:01:20,119
her hand.

1098
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:22,599
Speaker 1: So if you look at the floor, like the way

1099
01:01:22,679 --> 01:01:22,960
that the.

1100
01:01:24,679 --> 01:01:28,079
Speaker 2: Planets are, the way that the smoke is made, right,

1101
01:01:28,159 --> 01:01:32,559
if you were paying attention, you notice.

1102
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: It's not the same as a kind of consense to it.

1103
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,039
If you look at the smoke, you know, around the horses.

1104
01:01:42,519 --> 01:01:46,199
All of this type of of of integrating this imagery

1105
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:53,400
into the story. And in terms of the who here

1106
01:01:53,559 --> 01:01:55,519
has read the snow white.

1107
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:01,119
Speaker 2: This is the white books, and so one of the

1108
01:02:01,159 --> 01:02:03,000
things one of the insights that I had that I

1109
01:02:03,159 --> 01:02:08,199
wanted to bring into this story is I realized that

1110
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:12,239
snow White and Rapunzel are like opposites, right, And so

1111
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:16,840
snow White, you have this queen and there's a young

1112
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,559
woman who is coming into coming to age, is become

1113
01:02:19,639 --> 01:02:22,679
beautiful and desirable. And so in the story of snow White,

1114
01:02:23,719 --> 01:02:28,360
the queen is jealous, jets the daughter from sends her

1115
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:31,280
out into the wellness to be the prey, to be danger,

1116
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:33,400
to be in danger, ultimately.

1117
01:02:33,039 --> 01:02:37,519
Speaker 1: Trying to kill her. And in Rapunzel have the same situation.

1118
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:42,519
Speaker 2: This young girl becomes beautiful, becomes desirable, but now the

1119
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:46,119
witch puts her out in the tower, locks her in,

1120
01:02:46,719 --> 01:02:50,039
prevents her from having access in order to protect her

1121
01:02:50,559 --> 01:02:53,639
completely from the outside world so that she doesn't face

1122
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:56,119
the abuse that snow White head to face.

1123
01:02:56,159 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: It something like that.

1124
01:02:57,639 --> 01:03:00,119
Speaker 2: But you realize that it's kind of two abusive, as

1125
01:03:00,119 --> 01:03:03,960
you could say, two types of debuse, two extremes.

1126
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: Right, And so in our version we have the queen

1127
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:08,480
in snow.

1128
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 2: White become the witch. In your pungel like move in,

1129
01:03:12,159 --> 01:03:14,960
it's the same character move in from one extreme to

1130
01:03:15,079 --> 01:03:17,800
the other, and her story will continue in your fairy

1131
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:20,519
take series, but it gives you an idea of what

1132
01:03:20,639 --> 01:03:23,079
I mean by hoping to give people a little.

1133
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,239
Speaker 1: Bit of insight into these stories. The story is still

1134
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:27,480
for like an eight year old, don't worry, just read it.

1135
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,639
She will be totally fine. I don't explain any or

1136
01:03:30,719 --> 01:03:33,639
this is a story, no explanation, this is just the story.

1137
01:03:35,159 --> 01:03:38,239
And so here is another image of a hermit.

1138
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:43,039
Speaker 2: And so for those who know orthodox art, you can

1139
01:03:43,159 --> 01:03:45,480
see the way that you've done the stone, the way

1140
01:03:45,559 --> 01:03:48,239
that Heather has done the stone work, and the cave.

1141
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,360
All of these are tropes that you see if you

1142
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:54,079
know the icon of Elijah, for example, the icon of

1143
01:03:54,119 --> 01:03:57,559
saints that are packing the page. We can move toward this.

1144
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: This type of a dream. And what I'm all about

1145
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:04,960
for the word is that you can.

1146
01:04:05,039 --> 01:04:10,199
Speaker 2: Clearly recognize obviously the iconographic sentiy, but there's a there's

1147
01:04:10,239 --> 01:04:13,280
also a kind of looseness and fluidity which is more

1148
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,559
akin to modern illustration, like there's a kind of there's

1149
01:04:16,559 --> 01:04:21,480
an ink, there's a kind of ink end feeling like

1150
01:04:21,679 --> 01:04:25,119
ink rush, and a lighting that is a little more vivid,

1151
01:04:25,199 --> 01:04:27,360
obviously than what you would see in an icon, a

1152
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:35,480
little more where you have a scene the power, yeah,

1153
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:41,559
you know, not also being afraid of of exploring or

1154
01:04:41,639 --> 01:04:45,239
having a more fantastical imagery. But you've also you've always

1155
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,280
seen this in icons or in where you have the

1156
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:50,760
sun in the moon as almost like as kind of

1157
01:04:51,599 --> 01:04:53,159
anthropologize characters.

1158
01:04:53,679 --> 01:04:55,599
Speaker 1: So we're bringing that in there as well.

1159
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:02,639
Speaker 2: Ye have the funds in the how.

1160
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:06,519
Speaker 1: I'm so excited about every time watch one.

1161
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 2: Can't believe we're gonna We're gonna publish this.

1162
01:05:10,039 --> 01:05:14,679
Speaker 1: It's so excited. Psycho a little hint of what it

1163
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:19,320
is that we're doing. But I would say the conclusion

1164
01:05:20,039 --> 01:05:23,440
to the talk is that this the time, like now

1165
01:05:23,559 --> 01:05:27,000
is the time, like right now, right now is the

1166
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:30,159
is the time. There are opportunities galore.

1167
01:05:31,159 --> 01:05:38,119
Speaker 2: Now. Then it falls back on the people that want

1168
01:05:38,199 --> 01:05:41,639
to do this because one of the problems that we've

1169
01:05:41,719 --> 01:05:46,320
had in Christian art, especially in America over the past

1170
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:51,079
decade is a tolerance of mediocrity.

1171
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:55,199
Speaker 1: Call it that you've had the sense that, well, if

1172
01:05:55,239 --> 01:05:56,519
you make things that are.

1173
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:01,639
Speaker 2: Kind of Christian, we can accept that they are had boring,

1174
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,239
kind of New yocre, and we'll kind of tolerate that

1175
01:06:04,519 --> 01:06:05,039
because we.

1176
01:06:05,119 --> 01:06:10,639
Speaker 1: Love Jesus, you know, But that's definitely the wrong way

1177
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:11,039
to go.

1178
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:14,679
Speaker 13: I think it's very opposite of what it should be,

1179
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:19,400
which is that we have the best stories, we have

1180
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:24,360
the best music, we have the best visuals, we have

1181
01:06:24,559 --> 01:06:29,559
the best everything, Like we really have the Gazam's Kuncbia.

1182
01:06:29,719 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 1: We have the total and not only that, we're in

1183
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:33,119
a moment right.

1184
01:06:33,079 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 2: Now, which unlike the ancients, we have access to all

1185
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:38,960
of it from the first century until now.

1186
01:06:39,639 --> 01:06:42,519
Speaker 14: Like you can look at images from the very first

1187
01:06:42,599 --> 01:06:45,400
Christians all the way to today, but you can listen

1188
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,960
to music from Middle Ages until now. You can all

1189
01:06:49,039 --> 01:06:51,920
of these things that we have. We have a storehouse.

1190
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,039
The entire history is presented to us.

1191
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:57,599
Speaker 2: On a platter, you know.

1192
01:06:57,679 --> 01:07:00,159
Speaker 1: And despite that, so many artists.

1193
01:07:00,119 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 2: Just lazy, like just lazy in the sense that they think,

1194
01:07:03,679 --> 01:07:07,159
again in this weird revolutionary nonsense, that they're going to

1195
01:07:07,239 --> 01:07:09,239
take it out of their own soul, if they're going

1196
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:11,800
to come out the creativity out of their own like

1197
01:07:12,119 --> 01:07:17,119
imagination or whatever. That's nonsense. That's not the way it works.

1198
01:07:18,199 --> 01:07:21,719
Like it's it's handed to you by the those that

1199
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,760
came before you. Right, it's a treasure that did it,

1200
01:07:25,159 --> 01:07:27,119
and you have to dive into it, you have to

1201
01:07:27,159 --> 01:07:28,559
study it. You have to learn it.

1202
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:30,079
Speaker 1: You have to become an expert.

1203
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:31,039
Speaker 2: An expert.

1204
01:07:31,199 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 1: If you're a painter, become a good painter.

1205
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 2: Learn to draw. Even if you paint icons, learn to

1206
01:07:37,119 --> 01:07:40,000
draw folks like learn to paint, learn to draw, learn

1207
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:44,079
learn the music, learn the skills. Become the best that

1208
01:07:44,239 --> 01:07:46,199
you can be. Study the history.

1209
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,199
Speaker 1: Study art history, Study the history of cinema.

1210
01:07:49,159 --> 01:07:52,719
Speaker 2: Study the history of music, study the history of the

1211
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:55,079
things that you want to be involved with and know.

1212
01:07:57,039 --> 01:08:02,599
Speaker 1: Right and know that there is a way to save it.

1213
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:05,519
There's a way to baptize these things.

1214
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:07,760
Speaker 2: But that it doesn't It doesn't just mean doing it.

1215
01:08:08,679 --> 01:08:13,480
It means reconnecting it, remember it, bringing it back in

1216
01:08:13,599 --> 01:08:16,720
a manner that will be a continuity and a manifestation

1217
01:08:17,399 --> 01:08:21,439
of the memory of the true zam Kunz work right

1218
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:22,119
of the liturgy.

1219
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:24,159
Speaker 1: So I don't know how to do it for all

1220
01:08:24,199 --> 01:08:25,239
the art, I have no idea.

1221
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 2: It's actually an amazing time because this is you can

1222
01:08:30,039 --> 01:08:34,000
everybody has the opportunity now to experiment that and to

1223
01:08:34,119 --> 01:08:39,439
try to see how can I make Christian skateboards Like

1224
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:42,439
I don't know, doesn't mean that you're gonna have images

1225
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:47,960
I don't put I consent skateboards don't do that. But

1226
01:08:48,239 --> 01:08:50,800
is there something if I if I make something, if

1227
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:53,000
I make an object and participate in the creation of

1228
01:08:53,039 --> 01:08:55,000
an object, is there a way that I can make

1229
01:08:55,079 --> 01:08:56,359
it beautiful.

1230
01:08:56,279 --> 01:08:59,560
Speaker 1: And kind of remembering of something, even if.

1231
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,640
Speaker 2: It is more on the consumer side, even if it

1232
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:05,199
is more on the passive entertainment side. Like I said,

1233
01:09:05,199 --> 01:09:07,479
I'm not saying there's anything wrong. It's a little bit

1234
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:07,680
of that.

1235
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:11,159
Speaker 1: It's it's part of the world, right, But.

1236
01:09:11,239 --> 01:09:13,680
Speaker 2: If we can connect it back, that is the key

1237
01:09:14,159 --> 01:09:17,359
and where it's an exciting time too, because a lot

1238
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:22,119
of artists are invertedd like we have. We have an

1239
01:09:22,520 --> 01:09:23,239
Martin Shaw here.

1240
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:27,840
Speaker 1: Manshaw is one of the best storytellers in the world.

1241
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:33,520
Speaker 2: Like he is one of the best storytellers alive today

1242
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:36,640
and he is now putting.

1243
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,319
Speaker 1: That skill to the service of Christ.

1244
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:40,000
Speaker 2: Right.

1245
01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 1: He converted the worthabout I think now three years ago

1246
01:09:43,279 --> 01:09:44,760
and he is seeing how.

1247
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:49,199
Speaker 2: To adapt his capacity as a storyteller into the Christian world.

1248
01:09:49,239 --> 01:09:52,560
But there are ways to learn from these people. Yeah.

1249
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:58,279
Speaker 1: Here, this icon probably San Justiniano. If you don't know him,

1250
01:09:58,359 --> 01:09:59,960
look him up if you want to be an economic

1251
01:10:00,159 --> 01:10:04,039
for he is an example of someone that is deeply, deeply.

1252
01:10:04,159 --> 01:10:08,079
Speaker 2: I vibed in the tradition of iconography, but also has

1253
01:10:08,119 --> 01:10:11,399
a d knowledge of our of Western art, history of illustration.

1254
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,800
Speaker 1: He has just soaked in it, right, he has soaked

1255
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:16,039
in the imagery.

1256
01:10:16,199 --> 01:10:19,039
Speaker 2: And now if he produces icons, he has a level

1257
01:10:19,119 --> 01:10:22,159
of subtlety and a level of understanding of color that

1258
01:10:22,399 --> 01:10:26,800
very few aconographers has. There are many more artists that

1259
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:30,359
I could make how to win Laurs Read Lauris.

1260
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:32,520
Speaker 1: It's for sale here.

1261
01:10:34,159 --> 01:10:37,520
Speaker 2: It's an astounding novel and it is exactly that like

1262
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:41,720
is it exactly an attempt to take all the legends,

1263
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:45,199
all of these wild stories from the past and connect

1264
01:10:45,279 --> 01:10:49,199
them in a manner that gives us a truly contemporary

1265
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:54,000
novel that isn't pastiche that isn't nostalgia.

1266
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:57,039
Speaker 1: That is truly that defends its space in the world,

1267
01:10:57,399 --> 01:10:58,840
in front of art critics.

1268
01:10:58,520 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 2: In front of social commentators.

1269
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:03,800
Speaker 1: But it is a fully orthodox work of art. And

1270
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:05,119
that's what's possible today.

1271
01:11:05,159 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 2: And that is what I don't know which of you

1272
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:12,520
here has artistic inclinations, but I encourage you to do that.

1273
01:11:13,239 --> 01:11:17,319
And so those don't have artistic inclinations, you have to

1274
01:11:17,359 --> 01:11:23,920
support the artists. You know, because artists me catrens one

1275
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:27,199
way or the other, like it's important, and it's important

1276
01:11:27,239 --> 01:11:29,159
for all of you. Know, there's a lot of clergy here.

1277
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:35,159
You know. Icon reproductions are cheap. I know it's tempting,

1278
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:38,600
get those laser printed icons. It's really tempting. I get it.

1279
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:42,319
But if you want the life of the church, if

1280
01:11:42,319 --> 01:11:44,119
you want the culture, you want the art of the

1281
01:11:44,199 --> 01:11:46,920
church to be alive, you have to support iconographers and

1282
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:48,760
everything downstream from that.

1283
01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 5: So thank you.

1284
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:51,399
Speaker 1: Everyone, Thank you for your talent.

1285
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:57,640
Speaker 10: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to

1286
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:00,399
the Symbolic World dot com website and see how you

1287
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:03,560
can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers

1288
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:06,439
with perks. There are apparel in books to purchase. So

1289
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:08,640
go to the Symbolic World dot com and thank you

1290
01:12:09,079 --> 01:12:09,760
for your support.