Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to Pink Shade.
Speaker 2: It's Thursday, and that means we're going to talk about
Speaker 2: pop culture and Bravo. And I've got a new guest.
Speaker 2: It is Melissa, who is known as your bish therapist.
Speaker 2: And do we say your last name Reich or reich
Speaker 2: Or's wrong?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: That was great. Okay, it's very good to meet you.
Speaker 3: So good to meet you, Mary Payne. I feel like
Speaker 3: we've traveled in the same circles and I just adore you.
Speaker 3: I love this podcast, so grateful to be here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have a mutual friend, Amy Phillips, yes,
Speaker 2: who gave me info so I could reach out and
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, I was like, I got somebody,
Speaker 2: I got. I gotta break down. I'm following all the trials,
Speaker 2: I'm solving all the murders, and I am so interested
Speaker 2: to hear your take as a therepist on Love Hotel
Speaker 2: and the Valley and what's going on with Real Housewives
Speaker 2: of Atlanta I'm watching. I'm not a below deck person
Speaker 2: and I have nothing against it. It's just there's so
Speaker 2: many that somewhere along the way they lost me, you know,
Speaker 2: by the way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, So Summerhouse I'm in on, but Below Deck
Speaker 3: I feel the same way. I've not watched one episode.
Speaker 3: There's too many iterations. And also I'm one of those
Speaker 3: weird people that I get so seasick even sometimes watching
Speaker 3: the movement it actually makes me. Yeah. So I also
Speaker 3: never gravitated towards it. And so you're not.
Speaker 2: Alone, Okay, I mean I've watched like I've watched it,
Speaker 2: but the last few seasons, I haven't watched A couple
Speaker 2: of seas ago, I watched a whole season and covered
Speaker 2: it and I really didn't even tell you why. I think, Oh,
Speaker 2: because there was a crossover with a person that was
Speaker 2: on another show I was covering with Deanna Chang, which
Speaker 2: was Milf manor Oh Danna and I were covering that,
Speaker 2: and one of the one of the young boys, I
Speaker 2: mean a thirty something year old, twenty something year old,
Speaker 2: was on Below Deck as a charter guest.
Speaker 1: So I was like, oh, well, we're gonna have to
Speaker 1: cover that.
Speaker 2: So then I got sucked into the season Summerhouse.
Speaker 1: Listen.
Speaker 2: I know that makes me a liability for anybody who
Speaker 2: wants to talk Bravo with me, But I've never watched
Speaker 2: a whole episode really, and it's just too late.
Speaker 1: I can't catch up.
Speaker 3: See, can I be honest? I disagree with that. Now
Speaker 3: here's people ask me to cover sister Wives all the time.
Speaker 3: That's too late to catch up on like that boat
Speaker 3: has there's like forty seven seasons. Yes, I'm they sit.
Speaker 1: Around and do nothing.
Speaker 3: Yes, right, But I really do think Summerhouse you can
Speaker 3: pick up. I mean, listen, no pressure, because I think
Speaker 3: that we all as content creators, we have the bandwidth
Speaker 3: for what we have the bandwidth for, and if you don't,
Speaker 3: that is totally fine. But it is really good. And
Speaker 3: I haven't watched since the beginning. I picked up in
Speaker 3: the middle because I kind of felt the same way
Speaker 3: in terms of like, I don't know how relevant it
Speaker 3: is to watch from the beginning, but I started picking
Speaker 3: up somewhere in the middle and now I'm totally in
Speaker 3: so it listen. It's never too late.
Speaker 2: I know, And it maybe if I ever have like
Speaker 2: an extended vacation or I have some sort of surgery
Speaker 2: where I have to like sit in the bed.
Speaker 1: That did happen to me? Yeah, that's that's what I'm
Speaker 1: hoping for.
Speaker 2: A few years ago, I had a surgery, and I
Speaker 2: watched all of Doubton Abbey because I'd never watched one episode. Well,
Speaker 2: I really felt like i'd accomplished something. I mean, I
Speaker 2: went all the way through the movies like I did
Speaker 2: it all I felt and that got me through. So
Speaker 2: if ever I have to have another major surgery summerhouse,
Speaker 2: it is okay.
Speaker 3: Well, let's also not hope that you have to have
Speaker 3: a surgery so you can watch. I hope you stay healthy.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, only if it's like something fun,
Speaker 2: like a facelift or like a tummy tucker or something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely sure, I'm with you. Yep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well let's talk about these shows.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So well, first I want to talk about pop culture,
Speaker 2: because I like to start with pop culture. Are you
Speaker 2: in on the Karen Reid trial? I mean literally that
Speaker 2: is on my phone right this minute. I just paused
Speaker 2: it because I'm not caught up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am dialed in to the Karen Trial. I
Speaker 3: have watched every single solitary episode of anything that has
Speaker 3: to do with her. I am fascinated.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I've been watching the trial every single day.
Speaker 2: I was very happy when I drove here to the beach.
Speaker 2: I had six hours in the car by myself. I
Speaker 2: could just listen to trial coverage, like literally listened to
Speaker 2: Emily b Baker, Emily de Baker tell me about the
Speaker 2: trial while the trial was trialing. So today when I
Speaker 2: was flying, I did miss a little bit of the
Speaker 2: testimony because I was flying. I got up, got right
Speaker 2: back in rewound, found where I was. Now they just
Speaker 2: this today. We're recording this Wednesday. It comes out Thursday.
Speaker 2: But they just announced no court Thursday, Friday, Monday, see
Speaker 2: you back on Tuesday, because they already were going to
Speaker 2: take the weekend, but then something happened where they're ahead
Speaker 2: on their witnesses.
Speaker 1: To testify.
Speaker 2: So I think that whoever was like the next one
Speaker 2: probably like couldn't be in town because they were scheduled
Speaker 2: to go on Tuesday. So they're like, no court Thursday, Friday, Monday.
Speaker 2: So that's gonna be upsetting for me. It's going to
Speaker 2: be a long break for me.
Speaker 3: That's so fascinating because I don't know how they're ahead
Speaker 3: because she was sick and then court had to be
Speaker 3: canceled only one day, you know, but you would think
Speaker 3: that would be behind, not ahead. That is that's interesting.
Speaker 1: MM hmm. So what am I going to do?
Speaker 2: So between now and then, what I'm going to do
Speaker 2: is I'm ketch up on the Diddy trial. Now I
Speaker 2: watch I'm up to date and Brian Coberger. I'm ready
Speaker 2: for that, Yes, But the Diddy trial, I've I've been
Speaker 2: listening to Kate Casey because she's covering it. I've been
Speaker 2: listening to her coverage. She's got a lawyer on there
Speaker 2: that's talking to her. I think I'll be interested to
Speaker 2: hear your point of view, from a therapist point of view,
Speaker 2: from the Cassie Ventura what I've seen, Like I said,
Speaker 2: I haven't been following it as closely, but what I
Speaker 2: saw was she explained everything. But of course, what they're
Speaker 2: always going to bring up in things like this is
Speaker 2: her willing to dissipation in quite a bit of it,
Speaker 2: you know, And this is it hasn't quite got to
Speaker 2: where I feel like it's blamed the victim, but it's
Speaker 2: skating the edge of blaming the victim. And you have
Speaker 2: to remember he met her when she was very young,
Speaker 2: and you know, groomed her and kept her around, and
Speaker 2: so yeah, if she's sending him these suggestive texts, like
Speaker 2: she's ready for the freak golf, or she can't wait,
Speaker 2: or yes, she'll contact the prostitute.
Speaker 1: Whatever. I see it.
Speaker 2: As grooming, and she's doing what she's told because now
Speaker 2: she's got this life that she's living.
Speaker 1: Anyway, I think they skated a very fine line on
Speaker 1: blaming the victim there. What are your thoughts.
Speaker 3: I don't think they skated the line. I think they
Speaker 3: crossed it. But if I'm being honest, I think whenever
Speaker 3: women historically are put in this position, it is always
Speaker 3: a group of male lawyers trying to victim blame, victim shame,
Speaker 3: slut shame, right, because having kinks isn't anything to go
Speaker 3: on trial for. But what you said a word, which
Speaker 3: is grooming, I fully agree, and so I actually went
Speaker 3: on Rachel Levis. I went on her podcast, I think
Speaker 3: it was last year, you know, after the scandal happened,
Speaker 3: and I talked about grooming because in the core of law,
Speaker 3: there is a lot that people and abusers can get
Speaker 3: away with because psychological abuse there's not a lot of
Speaker 3: great definitions and there's certainly not a lot of great
Speaker 3: accountability holding in terms of our justice system that.
Speaker 1: We have to prove it right. How do you prove it.
Speaker 2: How do you prove that that person was groomed to,
Speaker 2: not just doing it of their own free will?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, right, right.
Speaker 3: But anyone with any sort of common sense or observational
Speaker 3: skills whatsoever can see that as he was very young,
Speaker 3: she was absolutely groomed by him. And it sounds like,
Speaker 3: you know, some of those texts and things, what happens
Speaker 3: is when you're in abusive relationships, which is wholeheartedly what
Speaker 3: this was. Did you see the video of him attacking
Speaker 3: her in the hallway and throwing her around road?
Speaker 2: So it's so nobody's going to look at that and
Speaker 2: be like, oh, she's terrified of him, and here's why.
Speaker 3: And if that's what he's willing to do in a
Speaker 3: public corridor where there's a hallway, can you imagine what
Speaker 3: he was willing to do behind closed doors. It's absolutely
Speaker 3: frightening and it's astounding to me but not surprising, how
Speaker 3: the lengths that this misogynistic culture will go to to
Speaker 3: try to tear women down. And this is why women
Speaker 3: don't come forward, because there's the abuse, there's the assaults,
Speaker 3: and then it happens all over again in a court
Speaker 3: of law, and it's just it's it's a very broken system. Cassie,
Speaker 3: in my opinion, is an absolute angel who is meaning
Speaker 3: angel on earth in terms of her strength, her perseverance,
Speaker 3: and her willingness to say, you know what, I know,
Speaker 3: I'm going to be torn down here, but I'm going
Speaker 3: to hold him accountable so that he can't hurt more people.
Speaker 3: And I just think her bravery is really something that
Speaker 3: should be celebrated and she shouldn't be torn down in anything.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people that are maybe going
Speaker 2: to be coming forward to testifying are feeling safer to
Speaker 2: speak their mind because he's behind bars, you know, because
Speaker 2: if he wasn't behind bars, and we haven't heard of
Speaker 2: yet a sort of a number two person that's running
Speaker 2: his enterprise, and maybe there is someone, but if you
Speaker 2: were afraid of him, and then you're also afraid of
Speaker 2: whoever's number two is, it doesn't seem like a number
Speaker 2: two has been revealed that people would be afraid of
Speaker 2: that person. It seems like more people are coming forward
Speaker 2: with stories because he's behind bars and they feel safer.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Right, And I think to your point, that is a
Speaker 3: huge factor in terms of why women don't come forward
Speaker 3: or why they acquiesce essentially to the abuse. So her
Speaker 3: text to me is not evidence of her participating, it's
Speaker 3: her evidence of her acquiescing because she doesn't want to
Speaker 3: get injured or killed or you know, I mean, I
Speaker 3: think for all intents and purposes. You know, I don't
Speaker 3: know Diddy. I haven't assessed him. You know, I can't
Speaker 3: speak on that, but his behaviors, I can say are
Speaker 3: indicative of a very dangerous person, likely with some very
Speaker 3: severe psychopathology. And what psychopathology is is just kind of
Speaker 3: you know, you hear people use the term sociopath's psychopath
Speaker 3: and essentially it's all you know, the psychological correct term
Speaker 3: is sociopathy. And that happens when people you know, lack
Speaker 3: empathy consistently over time. And so not only does he
Speaker 3: like empathy, I just feel this visceral reaction every time
Speaker 3: I see you know, that video or something he says
Speaker 3: or does you know, I'm kind of like I joke
Speaker 3: a little bit, I'm like a bomb sniffing dog when
Speaker 3: it comes to sociopathy. Okay, in my history, I've worked
Speaker 3: with a lot of different populations. I'm trying to figure
Speaker 3: out how to say this diplomatically, and so I just
Speaker 3: am really able to with certain men with those characteristics.
Speaker 3: It's like a visceral feeling that I get in my
Speaker 3: body and I just feel that whenever I watch any
Speaker 3: sort of coverage with him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we talk a lot on our shows about
Speaker 2: sociopath and psychopath and explain to me the difference, because
Speaker 2: I know one is sort of like you're born with
Speaker 2: it and the other one is sort of like you
Speaker 2: become Is that right?
Speaker 3: Well, and so there essentially euphemisms for the same term,
Speaker 3: which is psychopathology. So a sociopath and a psychopath, people
Speaker 3: will say. People online, if you look at TikTok, they'll say, well,
Speaker 3: this means this, and this means this. It's hard.
Speaker 1: I'm getting my information, let's be real.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and listen fair enough. I get I'm on TikTok too,
Speaker 3: and I have to check myself too. I'm like is
Speaker 3: that right? And I'm like, well, I don't believe that.
Speaker 3: So they can be very convincing, but it's essentially just
Speaker 3: one broad umbrella term, which is psychopathology. And what those
Speaker 3: terms mean is that brain studies and imaging have shown
Speaker 3: that people who have psychopathology, they you know, their frontal
Speaker 3: lobes and certain areas of the brain do not light
Speaker 3: up the way that other folks who have healthy functioning
Speaker 3: brains do, and so there is some biological you know,
Speaker 3: really the answer to why things happen the way they
Speaker 3: are is it's called epigenetics, and epigenetics is when environment
Speaker 3: meets genetics, and so it really, you know, the old
Speaker 3: in psychology was nature or nurture, and we now know
Speaker 3: the answer is always both, I mean usually both. And
Speaker 3: so psycho pathology means that in terms of how they behave,
Speaker 3: they don't have pro social behaviors, meaning they don't have empathy.
Speaker 3: They're very self serving. They use other people to serve
Speaker 3: their needs and desires. But lack of empathy is really
Speaker 3: the only huge defining characteristic for those specific diagnoses. I
Speaker 3: would say, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So when you see somebody, we'll say Jacks. So
Speaker 2: Jack's a long time ago on Stacy's podcast, and that
Speaker 2: was one of the first podcasts to ever listen to
Speaker 2: because I love Stacy and come at me, I don't care.
Speaker 2: And she had a podcast that was really good, and
Speaker 2: she still does have a podcast, she has kind of
Speaker 2: a different one now, but she sat down with Jack
Speaker 2: I think it was. Even on vander Pump Rules, she
Speaker 2: sat down with Jack's for her podcast and gave him
Speaker 2: it was was it a sociopath test or a narcissist test?
Speaker 2: He passed with the line colors.
Speaker 3: Oh well, okay, so I can speak to that too.
Speaker 3: Is that I think it was a narcissist test. But
Speaker 3: Tom Sandival went on Doctor Drew's. He went on a
Speaker 3: podcast and doctor Drew has this test to look at narcissism.
Speaker 3: And I went and I looked at it because part
Speaker 3: of my training is in psychological assessment as well. Now
Speaker 3: I don't provide that, but I you know, I took
Speaker 3: courses on it, and I understand that in these assessments
Speaker 3: there need to be some measures to prevent fakery essentially,
Speaker 3: And so I took that narcissis test that doctor Drew
Speaker 3: gave to Tom Sandival, and you can answer it the
Speaker 3: way that you want to get the answer that you want.
Speaker 3: So unless it's an actual psychological assessment tool, I don't
Speaker 3: always put a lot of stock in it for that reason,
Speaker 3: because Jackson is smart enough to know how to answer
Speaker 3: those questions to get the desire result that he wants.
Speaker 2: But the result that the got was he is a narcissist,
Speaker 2: he is a sociopath.
Speaker 1: That was the result. Okay, well then it was I
Speaker 1: was saying.
Speaker 2: As he passed, She's like, you have to answer everything.
Speaker 2: She's like, and you understand, like we were together for years,
Speaker 2: like you can't lie. He's like, okay, you know. One
Speaker 2: of the questions was if this then that, would you
Speaker 2: choose yourself or would you choose to help your an
Speaker 2: old lady about to get hit by a bus. And
Speaker 2: he'd be like, well, I mean she's already runt of
Speaker 2: the bus, so what am I going to do. It
Speaker 2: was just all of his answers were the wrong thing
Speaker 2: to say, and she was like, oh my god.
Speaker 1: And at the end she was like, well, okay, you.
Speaker 2: Scored, you know, nineteen out of twenty. You know, yes,
Speaker 2: you're a social path.
Speaker 1: Yeah. He's like, okay, okay, so I'm cute. Who cares?
Speaker 2: But with Jack's with his behavior, a lot of his
Speaker 2: behavior I can relate to with my past with my husband.
Speaker 2: A lot of his behaviors are just attic behavior in
Speaker 2: that he says, yeah, I shouldn't have done it, but
Speaker 2: everybody else would well, everybody else would have done the
Speaker 2: same thing.
Speaker 1: It's very much of.
Speaker 2: Okay, it was wrong, but what would you do if
Speaker 2: that happened, or every everybody would do the same And
Speaker 2: you're like, no, they wouldn't. And he can't ever just
Speaker 2: say yes, that was wrong, yes that was wrong, but
Speaker 2: you would do the same thing. He always is trying
Speaker 2: to caveat you would do the same thing. Any guy
Speaker 2: would do the same thing. And then I noticed this week,
Speaker 2: I guess it was on the Valley that Danny was
Speaker 2: doing the same thing about his drinking that my husband
Speaker 2: used to do a lot of, like, well, everybody was drinking,
Speaker 2: Why were you? Why are you saying I was drunk?
Speaker 2: Everybody was drinking. So it's like if everybody's doing it,
Speaker 2: then I'm not the problem. So with Danny, his behavior
Speaker 2: presents to me as addict behavior, and the way he
Speaker 2: speaks about it the same as Jack's the way Jack
Speaker 2: speaks about like two, Okay, I had a cocaine problem,
Speaker 2: but you did cocaine too. It's like, that's not the point.
Speaker 3: That was So when I watched that scene, it was
Speaker 3: so textbook addictive behavior, where it's like the addict. It's like,
Speaker 3: if they're going to go down they're going to take
Speaker 3: everyone around them with them, because I and I think truly,
Speaker 3: you know, it's funny that you mentioned that Jack's failed
Speaker 3: the test, and so it sounds like he was truthful,
Speaker 3: because I do believe at the core that Jack's his
Speaker 3: narcissistic traits and tendencies, you know, because I can't diagnose
Speaker 3: it's not appropriate and it's also not ethical. I don't
Speaker 3: know Jacks. I'm not a therapist, but I can look
Speaker 3: at the behaviors and I can tell you that on
Speaker 3: you know, clinically, I look at things on a continuum,
Speaker 3: and so he is for sure on the higher end
Speaker 3: of this continuum of these narcissistic traits and tendencies, you know,
Speaker 3: bordering on I would say anti social, anti social traits
Speaker 3: and tendencies, meaning you know, like when he stole the
Speaker 3: sunglasses just for just for kicks, you know, he yeah,
Speaker 3: his brain really, he does, really see to have the
Speaker 3: one thing that all people in addiction have in common,
Speaker 3: which is just like a thirst for chaos. It's you know,
Speaker 3: it's not always even about the substance. It's about the
Speaker 3: thirst for absolute chaos in relationships with your friend groups,
Speaker 3: just creating you know, the ripple effect of his behaviors
Speaker 3: on other people. I think he sort of gets a
Speaker 3: kick out of that. And so for me, I'll tell
Speaker 3: you something funny. I actually didn't watch VPR in the
Speaker 3: beginning because I felt allergic to Jack's I was so like,
Speaker 3: I felt I was so hot.
Speaker 2: I was so hot for him, you know, because that
Speaker 2: just shows you the kind of men I've chosen in
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I was like, he.
Speaker 2: Is so hot, he is so mean, he would be
Speaker 2: so mean to me, and I would be the one
Speaker 2: to change him.
Speaker 3: Oh and listen, that's why Brittany stuck around and was right.
Speaker 3: And that's that's the way people like this have significant
Speaker 3: other women especially think I can change him. I'll make
Speaker 3: him want to change and.
Speaker 2: Then it would be one he picked up all the women.
Speaker 2: I'm one he picked because I'm I was able to
Speaker 2: change him. So I'm special, you know. And You're like,
Speaker 2: he's been with hundreds and hundreds of women, but I'm
Speaker 2: the one, you.
Speaker 3: Know, right, right, And so I think, you know, at
Speaker 3: a point, that's maybe how Brittany felt. But I just
Speaker 3: think that Jack's particularly there's something a little bit sadistic
Speaker 3: about him where it's like you know that saying misery
Speaker 3: loves company, like he's not happy unless people around him
Speaker 3: are miserable and in chaos as well. And so that's
Speaker 3: something extra special about Jackson's personality that I don't necessarily
Speaker 3: see in someone like Jesse. For example, Jesse and Jack's
Speaker 3: are very similar, right, I very similar.
Speaker 1: Jesse's just a little bit smarter.
Speaker 3: And more charismatic.
Speaker 2: I would I argue, I've been around Jack's twice, not
Speaker 2: you know, just seeing him and had had work spoken twice,
Speaker 2: and I would argue that he is very charismaic, but
Speaker 2: I think it's simmering underneath, and you know him enough
Speaker 2: to know that, you know, whereas Jesse is so cutting
Speaker 2: with his words, and like when he said to Janet
Speaker 2: on the valley, when he said this is not a
Speaker 2: game you want to play, like that scared me a
Speaker 2: little bit. I was like, oh, I'm a little scared him.
Speaker 2: I could probably take him because they're probably bigger than him,
Speaker 2: but I'm.
Speaker 3: Like, that scared me a little bit to say that
Speaker 3: what she yeah say bloomers, you know.
Speaker 2: To say that to somebody, a girl in front of
Speaker 2: their husband, like he doesn't care. You know, he said it, right,
Speaker 2: to her in front of her husband. He didn't care
Speaker 2: if he offended her her husband. Who's this friend? He said,
Speaker 2: You're not gonna this is not a game you're gonna
Speaker 2: be good at. You don't need to try to play
Speaker 2: with me.
Speaker 1: I was like, WHOA.
Speaker 3: I think that Jack's cares less about people seeing behind
Speaker 3: the mask, and Jesse's max mask is a little bit
Speaker 3: more affixed, and he only lets it down in those
Speaker 3: little moments and you have to be watching carefully. So
Speaker 3: I agree with your assessment on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very interesting. I think that's right. I think
Speaker 2: Jax is just so like this has gotten me on
Speaker 2: TV for fifteen years.
Speaker 1: Yes is the why not? This made me fairs, so
Speaker 1: people must like it.
Speaker 2: Do you have what else are you discussing like on
Speaker 2: your show and in general?
Speaker 1: What are you talking?
Speaker 2: Because we did, Karen, Ree're talkbout cover Diddy? So when
Speaker 2: you're talking about things, are you do you pick like
Speaker 2: one specific subject or like, this is what's happening this
Speaker 2: week on the Love Hotel, let's talk about Shannon?
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, great question. So honestly, I have this
Speaker 3: thing where I will only cover what I am authentically
Speaker 3: drawn to as a human being. And I have the
Speaker 3: privilege of doing that because you know this, I get
Speaker 3: to do this for fun. This is you know, I'm
Speaker 3: trying to make it a career, trying to you know,
Speaker 3: do my best at this. But you know, I have
Speaker 3: an amazing, wonderful, supportive husband, and so I can really
Speaker 3: just kind of cherry pick and so I look at
Speaker 3: what does my brain feel authentically drawn to. So what
Speaker 3: it's been drawn to is Shannon on Love Hotel. I
Speaker 3: swear to you I could write a dissertation on her
Speaker 3: relational issues. I have so much to say about that.
Speaker 3: So I've covered that. Of course, the valley is so
Speaker 3: rich in terms of because I have a huge people
Speaker 3: that follow me their you know, Thriver, survivors of domestic abuse,
Speaker 3: sober community, because I talk a lot about you know, addiction,
Speaker 3: you know, as a former drug and alcohol counselor, and
Speaker 3: so I you know, the valley. I try. I'm trying
Speaker 3: to make something good out of something really toxic by
Speaker 3: you know, making it educational at least a little bit.
Speaker 3: And then I was covering Atlanta, but you know what,
Speaker 3: no one seems to care about it, and it really
Speaker 3: you know, because it's so good.
Speaker 1: I will say, let's talk about Atlanta really quick.
Speaker 2: So this last week we had Shemia and Porscha sit
Speaker 2: down as they've been friends for a very long time,
Speaker 2: and it was very weird what was happening at that
Speaker 2: table because so Shemia was trying to tell her as
Speaker 2: a good friend of me, I'm trying to tell you,
Speaker 2: and she got going, stop, why are you doing this?
Speaker 1: I can't believe you're doing this for the show.
Speaker 2: She was trying to call Shemiah out and say you
Speaker 2: are overreacting or creating drama for the show, where Shemia
Speaker 2: is like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm literally
Speaker 2: trying to talk to you about something. Something happened when
Speaker 2: Portia went to the bathroom and came back and she
Speaker 2: sort of had reset and was like, we do need
Speaker 2: to work this out. I found that whole thing so
Speaker 2: interesting because it was like Portia wouldn't really let Shemia talk,
Speaker 2: and then she got mad at her and started saying, you're.
Speaker 1: Doing this for the show. I was like, where's the
Speaker 1: evidence of that? Why are you saying that? I thought,
Speaker 1: what did you think? I thought it was interesting.
Speaker 3: I also was fascinated by the scene because so much
Speaker 3: of communication is actually nonverbal, Like the stuff that can
Speaker 3: really matter, a lot of it is nonverbal. And it
Speaker 3: was like I felt like I was watching the US
Speaker 3: Open like a tennis match, like boom boom boom. And
Speaker 3: it was so fascinating as a therapist to watch, you know,
Speaker 3: because what I have a history of, you know, when
Speaker 3: you're in a situation and you're watching it escalate. I
Speaker 3: saw each and every bit of how they both contributed
Speaker 3: to that excalation. And so I think that, my honest,
Speaker 3: if I have never loved a new housewife like I
Speaker 3: love Shamiyah, I feel, where has this peach been all
Speaker 3: of our real housewives of a Landa lives? She should
Speaker 3: have been on a million years ago? Who dropped the
Speaker 3: ball on that? And Porscha just has this history of,
Speaker 3: let's face it, relational issues in her romantic and her
Speaker 3: friendship relationships. And I believe Porscha is kind of a
Speaker 3: perpetual victim in that she feels. I don't think at
Speaker 3: that dinner she felt she had the bandwidth for Shamiah,
Speaker 3: but sometimes life is hard and we may not have
Speaker 3: the bandwidth. But if this is your sister that you've
Speaker 3: been friends for decades, right, this is not some random
Speaker 3: new housewife, like he gives a who this is your girl,
Speaker 3: this is your sister. And so it was not surprising
Speaker 3: to see how Porsha behaved, but it was understandable why
Speaker 3: that made Shamia angry because Shemiah was on the right
Speaker 3: side of history here, I believe, and I think Porsha
Speaker 3: was just like, listen, I'm going through a real divorce.
Speaker 3: I can't go through a friend divorce. But the problem
Speaker 3: is she doesn't want to address any of the problems
Speaker 3: that are creating these what I would call relationship ruptures.
Speaker 3: So if you have a rupture and you don't deal
Speaker 3: with it and then you move on, and then there's
Speaker 3: another rupture, well soon the relationship becomes you know, you
Speaker 3: can't fix it. It's inflexible. Yeah, and I think unfortunately
Speaker 3: Portia has a history of doing that in relationships, hoping
Speaker 3: issues will just fly away and miraculously resolve, and that's
Speaker 3: just not how life goes.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really I've been watching Atlanta and maybe it's
Speaker 2: because it's the only housewives on right now, like we're
Speaker 2: getting Miami soon, but I've been really enjoying it. I've
Speaker 2: loved the whole new stylized version of it. I'm generally
Speaker 2: liking that. I'm really liking Angela Oakley because I felt
Speaker 2: like she was being super honest about her relationship with
Speaker 2: her husband.
Speaker 1: She's like, oh, yeah, like we have separated because of
Speaker 1: what happened.
Speaker 2: I mean, so I like that when they don't try
Speaker 2: to say oh, people just try to spread rumors, and
Speaker 2: she's like, no, we went through some shit.
Speaker 1: And I like that.
Speaker 2: I feel like she's a grown up woman who has
Speaker 2: been through things in her life and she can you know.
Speaker 2: She's like, and then my daughter got married and didn't
Speaker 2: tell me, and then my mom doesn't like my husband.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, so I think it's like real life,
Speaker 2: and I really like her. Kelly I'm getting into because
Speaker 2: she's just She's just she literally is like a like
Speaker 2: a Betty Boot character, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: A literal ray of sunshine.
Speaker 2: But I'm not interesting about her daughters that she has.
Speaker 2: The she has the three or the four daughters, and
Speaker 2: three of them have that riddle bone disease and they
Speaker 2: be a CPS was time to take them away because
Speaker 2: they thought she was beating her children.
Speaker 1: You're like, whoa, we skated past that.
Speaker 3: That's a huge story, right, and not her a lot,
Speaker 3: but she has an ex husband who, by for all
Speaker 3: intents and purposes, has been allegedly very abusive and talking
Speaker 3: about scary right like threats. Yeah, and I kind of
Speaker 3: believe that Kelly. I think she's a beautiful soul, but
Speaker 3: I think her bubbly personality is built off of trying
Speaker 3: to keep herself safe, to keep people around her so
Speaker 3: that she's not alone. So that and I also think
Speaker 3: some of it, like trauma survivors, a lot of times
Speaker 3: we do this thing where will just not want to
Speaker 3: deal with the emotions, so we'll kind of like have
Speaker 3: a little bit of toxic positivity accidentally, right unintentionally, And
Speaker 3: sometimes I get that a little bit with Kelly, Like
Speaker 3: I want to see your sadness, like you're not a
Speaker 3: way of sunshine every day and if you are, well,
Speaker 3: that's you're not feeling something. So you know, I want
Speaker 3: to I feel like I want to peel back the
Speaker 3: layers of Kelly and get to her, but you know,
Speaker 3: I think she needs to feel safe enough to do that.
Speaker 2: So you just said toxic positivity, which reminded me of
Speaker 2: the recap I just did with Kimberly that came out
Speaker 2: on Wednesday about The Valley. She used the phrase toxic
Speaker 2: positivity to describe NIA.
Speaker 1: And what you're saying is to covering up trauma.
Speaker 2: Obviously we didn't know this about Nia, but she said
Speaker 2: it on this latest episode of The Valley of all
Speaker 2: that she went through and she's she said, I'm intentional
Speaker 2: in my positivity because of what I went through today.
Speaker 2: I'm grateful that I have a home, but then I
Speaker 2: was grateful that I had a car to live in.
Speaker 2: So she's been through so much that she she says,
Speaker 2: I'm intentional with my positivity and maybe I could be
Speaker 2: a light and help other people. But like you're saying,
Speaker 2: sometimes when you're like that, all your friends around you
Speaker 2: will get mad and be like, but you're not being real.
Speaker 2: You're not being real, and we don't like it. And
Speaker 2: especially for on a show where we're all getting paid
Speaker 2: the same amount to show our lives and you're not.
Speaker 2: And you find that you see that a lot and
Speaker 2: housewives of some of these shows, or what really they're
Speaker 2: mad at the person about is mad about is because
Speaker 2: they came late to a party.
Speaker 1: When it's like, this is a cast call. We have
Speaker 1: to be there.
Speaker 2: You didn't have to come because you did something else
Speaker 2: and we all had to go. So sometimes they're mad
Speaker 2: about that kind of stuff, or like, you got invited
Speaker 2: to be a speaker as something and you didn't add me,
Speaker 2: so I didn't get that money to be a speaker
Speaker 2: at something. So there's all these little things. So I
Speaker 2: think it's very interesting what you said Nia and her
Speaker 2: toxic positivity. That's a little bit of what they're mad about.
Speaker 2: They're like, well, that's great that you're so happy and
Speaker 2: you and your husband are true partners and handle everything
Speaker 2: together with therapy and all that, but we are shooting
Speaker 2: a reality show where we have to show all our shit,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: And it's so funny because where I talked about toxic positivity,
Speaker 3: that initially came from that scene with Nia, and as
Speaker 3: a therapist, I swear to you it was like a
Speaker 3: light bulb went off in my head. And so I
Speaker 3: just want to explain quickly. My assessment was like, so
Speaker 3: she growing up, had her and her mom were chronically
Speaker 3: unhoused for people listening that maybe don't know, and when
Speaker 3: you're growing up as a child and you have what's
Speaker 3: called scarcity trauma, so as humans, the only thing we
Speaker 3: really absolutely have to have her needs met is like shelter, food,
Speaker 3: and safety. And when those needs aren't met as children,
Speaker 3: there's a scarcity trauma that happens and really can rewire
Speaker 3: children's brains. And you know, the thing that became apparent
Speaker 3: to me is that I think Nia in this scenario,
Speaker 3: it's it's they're arguing about semantics. She's being as open
Speaker 3: as she knows how to because I believe when she
Speaker 3: was a child, you have to develop this sense of
Speaker 3: secrecy when you know if someone at school finds out,
Speaker 3: you're going to get separated from your mind, and children
Speaker 3: and youth are going to get involved. So I believe
Speaker 3: that Nia has the suit of armor to self protect
Speaker 3: and I believe that she's doing the same thing because
Speaker 3: the only thing that matters to her is Danny and
Speaker 3: those children. And so I believe I'm viewing it more
Speaker 3: as much more self protective due to that child scarcity trauma.
Speaker 3: And this is as open as she knows how to be,
Speaker 3: because I think she worries in real time if people
Speaker 3: think that Danny has an addiction and what is going
Speaker 3: to happen to her current family unit are children and
Speaker 3: youth going to get involved there is she at risk
Speaker 3: of losing her home, her car, her job, and for
Speaker 3: someone in that position, that fear would override any requirements
Speaker 3: of being on a reality TV show. She's doing the
Speaker 3: best she can, I believe.
Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting when she was arguing with
Speaker 2: you know, Britney Jazzin and Britney's room and Danny King
Speaker 2: kind of stucker mad at me, like what's going on?
Speaker 2: And then they went back in the bedroom and she
Speaker 2: was saying, just like so many things I've heard myself say,
Speaker 2: is like, yeah, everybody was drinking, and she was sort
Speaker 2: of saying the words that he was saying too. And
Speaker 2: then like when she came home from the dinner and
Speaker 2: she sat down and she goes, well, you know, you
Speaker 2: told me you drank tequila, but I didn't know it
Speaker 2: was in the closet, and he said that's where the
Speaker 2: bottles were. She goes, Okay, that makes sense. It seems
Speaker 2: like that is a show for people to see that
Speaker 2: she knows and she understands. But in my mind, I'm
Speaker 2: like they're trying to protect this image because they're very
Speaker 2: involved with their church number one, and she absolutely doesn't
Speaker 2: want the word to get out that he has some
Speaker 2: sort of substance issue that'll affect his career as a
Speaker 2: voiceover artist, which then affects her and the kids.
Speaker 3: That's right, and creates that again, that trigger for scarcity trauma,
Speaker 3: where if he loses his job, what happens to this house,
Speaker 3: what happens to our kids? I've lived in my car.
Speaker 3: I can't do that, you know. She She's just trying
Speaker 3: to do the best she can for her children. But
Speaker 3: it's so interesting you bring up that scene because what
Speaker 3: I wrote down is I can tell that she's making
Speaker 3: excuses to playcate Danny's anger in the moment, it was
Speaker 3: super obvious to me, and she's done this millions of
Speaker 3: times before. She you know, cameras were on and so
Speaker 3: she felt safe enough to say something. But Danny has
Speaker 3: this real I call it a simmering rage which she
Speaker 3: can see. Like there was one scene where Danny smirked
Speaker 3: and she got so triggered and defensive and she said,
Speaker 3: don't do that smirk. I know what that's about. And
Speaker 3: I forget what point it was and.
Speaker 1: Should she said don't do that nervous laughter? Yes, what?
Speaker 1: And she goes quit doing the nervous.
Speaker 2: I think she's trying to say, quit nervous, laughing about
Speaker 2: me talking about you chunking tequila in a closet. She goes,
Speaker 2: it does look bad. It does, and he's like, right, okay,
Speaker 2: all right, you know, yeah.
Speaker 3: But I'm saying that I can see that that's the
Speaker 3: mark of a woman who's had those conversations so many
Speaker 3: times that knows the slight change in his smile and
Speaker 3: tone of voice. And so when you're dealing with a
Speaker 3: partner who may be overutilizing substances. Because I can't judge
Speaker 3: what's going on with Danny, I can only look at
Speaker 3: what I see. It's what happens when they're confronted about
Speaker 3: the ripple effects of their behavior. And I think that
Speaker 3: you know, Danny's saying, well, he's had to go to
Speaker 3: therapy before because of his behaviors when he's blacked out
Speaker 3: on alcohol, but he's shocked and surprised that it's still
Speaker 3: causing an issue, and you know, so it's a lot
Speaker 3: of rich information, and it just tells me that there's
Speaker 3: so much more under the surface that they're just desperately
Speaker 3: trying to hide. And it's not disingenuous I think it's
Speaker 3: just I think Nia's trying to preserve her safety in
Speaker 3: her family unit.
Speaker 1: Real really interesting.
Speaker 2: It's really interesting to think of it that way, because
Speaker 2: I see it as her trying to say face because
Speaker 2: we don't want him to lose his job because he's
Speaker 2: the main breadwinner. I find it fascinating, all right. So
Speaker 2: we also touched on Shannon on Love Hotel Now. When
Speaker 2: Shannon did sort of explain that she was coming up
Speaker 2: on the one year of her duy, Well, anybody that's
Speaker 2: been in any kind of traumatic situation knows that somehow biologically,
Speaker 2: your brain or your body or something knows it's an anniversary.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: My husband had a sister that passed away as a child,
Speaker 2: and when they were children, and in December he would
Speaker 2: always get he said, he goes. I can't explain it.
Speaker 2: I could feel it because when it happened, it was
Speaker 2: in December, right, even though it's fifty years ago at
Speaker 2: this point. But it's interesting that watching that, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this might be because she says, you know, tomorrow is
Speaker 2: the when you're anniversary, and then she shows all these
Speaker 2: men who she's technically supposed to be wanting to be
Speaker 2: attractive to let me show you what what a hot
Speaker 2: fucking mess I am.
Speaker 4: Let me show always throw my bloody face. So I
Speaker 4: was like, girls like no, no. But it's interesting because
Speaker 4: people are like, what is up with her?
Speaker 2: I go, I just see her life literally did not
Speaker 2: turn out like she planned it. And she planned to
Speaker 2: be married to David Bbora and David Badoor and live
Speaker 2: in the twenty million dollar mansion with the crystals embedded
Speaker 2: in the wall and the indoor basketball court.
Speaker 1: That's what she planned. So that didn't happen.
Speaker 2: And then she planned John Danson, you know, this amazing
Speaker 2: boyfriend whatever, and that didn't happen. So you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think she's just struggling to.
Speaker 1: Get above water.
Speaker 3: You know, I absolutely agree, And I said on my
Speaker 3: podcast pretty much the one a similar piece to that,
Speaker 3: which is that I think that Shannon is grief stricken
Speaker 3: because she is at a she is at an age
Speaker 3: in her life where, like you said, the picture of
Speaker 3: what she had for herself in her mind, it is
Speaker 3: totally different. She is, you know, recovering from a duy
Speaker 3: because you know, I mean in the sober community, you know,
Speaker 3: post acute withdrawals, you know, and I don't know if
Speaker 3: she stopped drinking, but post acute withdrawal syndrome last for
Speaker 3: over a year.
Speaker 2: After people at please she's drinking on this show, she
Speaker 2: did not stop drinking, you know.
Speaker 3: Right, So, but my point is is that when you
Speaker 3: know she's not Shannon does not love to feel a feeling.
Speaker 3: She does not love to allow herself to feel an emotion,
Speaker 3: and so I think she's profoundly unhappy. And what she
Speaker 3: does is she projects that onto all the males who
Speaker 3: she dates. Because the one thing that became super clear
Speaker 3: to me with this whole Shannon stuff, I've talked about
Speaker 3: it every week is that she is recreating all of
Speaker 3: her relation relational issues with men that she doesn't know.
Speaker 3: So what does that tell me? That tells me that
Speaker 3: Shannon is is a huge part of the issue, and
Speaker 3: that she's recreating this chaos here we see again chaos
Speaker 3: right with people overutilizing alcohol. She uses this chaos I
Speaker 3: feel to be able to express these painful emotions, like
Speaker 3: when she and Earle fought, I don't know how much
Speaker 3: it was about Earl and how much of it was
Speaker 3: about I'm on the show. I feel like a fish
Speaker 3: out of water. Nobody but Earle likes me. These three
Speaker 3: women are swimming in d and I'm just like, no
Speaker 3: one likes me. And I think also that's why she
Speaker 3: was with David and with John Jansen, because it's like
Speaker 3: if anyone likes her, even if she's not happy or
Speaker 3: doesn't like them, she settles. And we've seen her do
Speaker 3: it time and time and time again on Love Hotel,
Speaker 3: and so you know, it just really did give me
Speaker 3: a lot of insight into I just think she has
Speaker 3: a lot of big emotions, does not know how to
Speaker 3: process those, uses these conflicts to express them. But when
Speaker 3: you're not being like when you have a feeling about
Speaker 3: situation A and you're making it about situation B, all
Speaker 3: those feelings about situation A really gets stuck and then
Speaker 3: you stuff them and then it gets all muddy because
Speaker 3: feelings are on top of feelings, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing with Earl was so interesting because she
Speaker 2: she did what she thinks is cute or guys like
Speaker 2: or she's like, what.
Speaker 1: Huh is she? That's always kind of been a cutesy
Speaker 1: thing that she does.
Speaker 2: And then he was like, he doesn't know her from TV,
Speaker 2: so he didn't think he doesn't know that sort of
Speaker 2: her stick. So he goes, why do you always look
Speaker 2: at me like you want to slap me? Because when
Speaker 2: she's doing that, he feels judged by her right, And
Speaker 2: it's interesting, I haven't even thought about it that way
Speaker 2: of her feeling like, oh, all these like sexy ladies
Speaker 2: here and people want them, but they don't want me.
Speaker 2: I would feel that way if I was in a
Speaker 2: show with those women, I would be like, Okay, these
Speaker 2: are all like beautiful, sexy women. And Shannon is a
Speaker 2: beautiful woman in her own way, but she's very sort
Speaker 2: of a little more conservative. And by the way, there's
Speaker 2: plenty of guys out there that like that too, the
Speaker 2: same amount of guys that like like Lui Ane being
Speaker 2: the opposite, you know, but she just doesn't see it.
Speaker 2: She doesn't see that she's got this to offer, you know, right,
Speaker 2: I like, why, you know, why don't you see?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's sad, and I agree Shannon. I don't believe
Speaker 3: she has any self worth. I don't believe she has
Speaker 3: any self esteem. I actually believe that Shannon is one
Speaker 3: of those women who will, you know, she'll be sad
Speaker 3: about feeling bad and then you know, she Giselle was like, listen,
Speaker 3: you're too fabulous for this, and then she'll almost parrot it,
Speaker 3: you know, like oh, yeah, I'm too fabulous, but she
Speaker 3: doesn't really believe that yeah, And so it's like, well,
Speaker 3: you can't talk yourself into feeling fabulous. If that worked,
Speaker 3: i'd be out of a job. So I think that Shannon, really,
Speaker 3: if I'm being honest, people who overutilize alcohol to the
Speaker 3: point where it's created some consequences, right like if UI
Speaker 3: or something like that. Alcohol is a depressant, and it
Speaker 3: literally makes people feel depressed, It makes them emotionally volatile,
Speaker 3: it can make them you know it what you experienced
Speaker 3: with your husband. I'm sure that you kind of know
Speaker 3: what I mean here. But there's just like a thunk.
Speaker 3: People who use a lot of alcohol are in a
Speaker 3: lot because it's just so toxic and unhealthy for us.
Speaker 3: And so I think that she doesn't give herself the
Speaker 3: chance to have clarity, Like if she had the DUI
Speaker 3: and then use the opportunity to really put the alcohol
Speaker 3: down and just assess temporarily, I think that she would
Speaker 3: be in a much better position. Number one and number two,
Speaker 3: I'm going to go out on the limb and say,
Speaker 3: I actually think Love Hotel was a bad idea for
Speaker 3: Shannon personally. Maybe professionally was a great idea, but I
Speaker 3: think after John Jansen, she's just too triggered. She's triggered
Speaker 3: by all of it, by you know, not feeling wanted,
Speaker 3: not feeling like she can catch up with I mean,
Speaker 3: but like you said, I would feel the same way.
Speaker 3: I'm like a grandma compared to lou Ayne, and she's
Speaker 3: so much older than me. I'm like, that is so rude,
Speaker 3: So I can understand how it feels.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think you're right.
Speaker 2: I think it was a bad choice for her, especially
Speaker 2: if they're filming right at a pivotal time where it's
Speaker 2: one year since her DUI, which is going to bring
Speaker 2: up all this shit for her.
Speaker 1: And I did hear Ashley.
Speaker 2: On Watch What Happens Live the other night made a
Speaker 2: really good analogy about the four of them being the
Speaker 2: sex in the city, and lou Ayne is obviously Samantha, right,
Speaker 2: and Shannon is obviously Charlotte right, and Gizelle is obviously Miranda,
Speaker 2: and then Ashley is like, and I'm Carrie, you know
Speaker 2: she But I was like, that is so good that
Speaker 2: is so good. But I think that Shannon probably is
Speaker 2: like they're like they're gonna throw her a bone and
Speaker 2: film something with her and all that it.
Speaker 1: I'm like, it wasn't the right time for her. Now,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I haven't you know, watched Ahead.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't get screeners, so I just like
Speaker 2: watch it when it comes on Monday like everybody else.
Speaker 3: Or baby, I'm not that important. No one sends me
Speaker 3: a screener, no one.
Speaker 2: No, no, I asked, and I get told no, I
Speaker 2: always ask. They did send me Salt Lake City screeners.
Speaker 2: So I'm hoping though, So I don't know how I
Speaker 2: got in with the Salt Lake City person that likes me.
Speaker 2: But each show is different and you have to ask
Speaker 2: for each show, and each person can tell, you know,
Speaker 2: like John Hill told me, and John Hill works on
Speaker 2: Radio Andy, that for every show that comes out, he
Speaker 2: has to ask every single time, every single season, for
Speaker 2: every single show. John Hill, yeah, he said he has
Speaker 2: to like call the blow Deck person and say, I
Speaker 2: need to get Blowdeck screeners, and I.
Speaker 1: Need to get Below Deck Australia screeners.
Speaker 2: I need to get Oh, Miami's coming out, don't forget
Speaker 2: to send me screeners is every time every season he
Speaker 2: asks us every time.
Speaker 3: Well that feels less bad because chut to me, you
Speaker 3: and John Hill are legends. So I'm like, well, if
Speaker 3: y'all can't get.
Speaker 2: Screeners, no, no, no, no. He gets all the screeners,
Speaker 2: but I don't. But they did give them to me
Speaker 2: for Salt Lake now probably, But I wrote to ask
Speaker 2: if I could get screeners for The Valley so that
Speaker 2: I have my episodes out super early, and they just
Speaker 2: went back and said no, We're just keeping a tight
Speaker 2: list on who can get screeners.
Speaker 1: For the Valley.
Speaker 2: He's like, okay, great, they say no, and you just
Speaker 2: the next show comes out and you try for that one.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, okay, that's right, doing your bust. Aren't
Speaker 1: we all doing my best? All right?
Speaker 2: Let me see what I want to ask you else
Speaker 2: about Love Hotel? What about Okay? What do you think
Speaker 2: about Earl? Do you think girl's going to get voted off?
Speaker 2: What do you think is in that letter that she
Speaker 2: gave him this week? Because she looked very proud of
Speaker 2: herself or handing him this letter, and he looked like
Speaker 2: he like broke into tears. So what do we think
Speaker 2: is in that letter.
Speaker 3: Okay, this is my theory. And again, since we don't
Speaker 3: get screeners, we have no idea if I'm correct, But
Speaker 3: I believe that Shannon the other guy. So remember how
Speaker 3: Shannon picked And I'm not remembering any of these men's names.
Speaker 1: I've got I've got a list.
Speaker 3: So okay, So the one that Shannon initially gave her
Speaker 3: key to, but then now he's with Countess Luann. He
Speaker 3: always says I love my life. Who's that guy?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: That guy is James and Kate Casey has inside scoop
Speaker 2: that he is a total loser with no job.
Speaker 3: I mean, doesn't he give those vibes like he gives
Speaker 3: it was like a guy who loves Margaritaville and loves
Speaker 3: just like being on the beach drinking and being like,
Speaker 3: I love my life. You know what I mean. Yes,
Speaker 3: that's the vibes.
Speaker 1: He's from Santa Monica.
Speaker 2: He's an entrepreneur, and he he's the I love my life.
Speaker 1: But he went to USC so that's what he bonded
Speaker 1: with Shannon.
Speaker 3: Over right, But now Shannon is gravitating towards the.
Speaker 2: Adam Adam and he's the worldly guy that like went
Speaker 2: to Oxford and went to Yale and lived in Italy,
Speaker 2: and he's like over.
Speaker 1: Educated that guy.
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, So Adam, Countess Lwanne, and Shannon were walking
Speaker 3: and so Shannon was so she literally was like, I'm
Speaker 3: done with Earle. Let me move on to Adam. And
Speaker 3: then Adam said, this was the moment I knew he
Speaker 3: was done with her. He told Shannon, if you and
Speaker 3: Countess Luanne were one woman, you would be my perfect woman.
Speaker 3: And I was like, bye, Adam, bye, bye, see you later,
Speaker 3: you dumbass, No, what are you even talking about? You do?
Speaker 3: It was so rude and so but here's the thing.
Speaker 3: Shannon is like, she's not like Countess luwan Countess Luan.
Speaker 3: She's like, who cares, I'm just trying to get you know,
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to get my needs met, which, like
Speaker 3: Kine good for her, But for Shannon, she was like
Speaker 3: I she thought she was going from Earle to to Adam,
Speaker 3: and now she's done with Adam. And I believe the
Speaker 3: note says will you be my something or other? Like
Speaker 3: I think she's choosing him and she's gonna eliminate Adam,
Speaker 3: That's what I think. And he's so overwhelmed with like
Speaker 3: shock and gratitude because he thought he was done.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a great theory. That's a that's a that's
Speaker 2: a flipping and reverse it. I didn't think about that,
Speaker 2: but you could be right. The tears could because he's
Speaker 2: so grateful that he's getting the second chance. And but listen,
Speaker 2: they're never gonna work out. Where does he live? Earl
Speaker 2: lives in He lives in Atlanta. He like lives on
Speaker 2: a lake. He's got the stupid, weird shoes, and I
Speaker 2: think she purposely picks that. In my opinion, everybody's feelings
Speaker 2: are different. My opinion, the least attractive man. She picked
Speaker 2: him because she was like, the least attractive guy will
Speaker 2: light me. That's like me when I was growing up
Speaker 2: and there there's a boy band or a rock band,
Speaker 2: i would pick what I deemed to be the least
Speaker 2: attractive member of Guns n' Roses or whatever, and I'd
Speaker 2: be like, that's my boyfriends, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: because I'm like, I could never get the lead singer.
Speaker 2: So I think Shannon does that. She's like, Okay, all
Speaker 2: these guys. Earl he is a legal consultant. He's probably
Speaker 2: pretty successful, but he's not very cute, So I'm going
Speaker 2: to go for him because I know I could get him.
Speaker 3: That's that fully a great First of all, Mary Payne,
Speaker 3: you deserve lead singer energy, okay, number one snap.
Speaker 2: Okay, no, no, I'm definitely like the bass player or
Speaker 2: the keyboarder.
Speaker 3: Okay, fine, But I'm just saying you deserve no scraps,
Speaker 3: my dear. But I fully agree because remember Giselle, they
Speaker 3: were talking about how Earl's her safety net, and so
Speaker 3: I knew as soon as Adam said that thing that
Speaker 3: was so rude that she was like, all she had
Speaker 3: was Earle. She has no other connections or roads to
Speaker 3: any other guy.
Speaker 2: She doesn't even know that the ladies had a meeting
Speaker 2: and decided to give Adam to her. And I think
Speaker 2: when she sees that, because I doubt we're going to
Speaker 2: get a reunion, when she sees that, her feelings is
Speaker 2: going to be like that would that would hurt my
Speaker 2: feelings so bad, be like, oh, they think I'm such
Speaker 2: a loser that they're giving me some guy I can't
Speaker 2: get him on my own.
Speaker 3: But I think that's how she's already feeling. I think
Speaker 3: she'll be very upset when she sees it, but it's
Speaker 3: like a literal representation of how she feels inside. And
Speaker 3: that's truly what happened. Shannon is just getting seconds of
Speaker 3: what these other women don't want, and that has got
Speaker 3: to be a blow to her already, just like really
Speaker 3: terrible self esteem. And it bums me out because I
Speaker 3: want fabulous women to believe that they're fabulous, because I
Speaker 3: think that if she did, she'd probably utilize alcohol less
Speaker 3: than she does. I think, I mean, people don't drink
Speaker 3: a lot because they're super happy.
Speaker 2: That's right, Oh, they really don't. They might have a
Speaker 2: drink when they're super happy, but they don't.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this too.
Speaker 2: Louis talked about this she's on a seven year cycle,
Speaker 2: because she was like, you know, I'm on the seven
Speaker 2: year cycle, and then the birthday in the seven seventeen.
Speaker 2: We've never really seen Luyne ever have an emotion like
Speaker 2: that where she actually got sort of choked up about
Speaker 2: like a family situation, like we've never seen it.
Speaker 1: I've never seen it.
Speaker 2: Saying she had to like put herself in the bathroom
Speaker 2: and like pull herself together talking about because they said, oh,
Speaker 2: something that she goes well, I was married for seven
Speaker 2: years and divorced, and then I was with this guy
Speaker 2: for seven months and now I'm on the seventh year
Speaker 2: of that. That whole thing really means I've never heard
Speaker 2: of such is the seven year cycle something that you've
Speaker 2: heard of before.
Speaker 3: So I haven't heard of that specific thing, but it
Speaker 3: does make sense that, you know, and I don't know
Speaker 3: if this is true or not. Physiologically, our bodies like
Speaker 3: every like certain amount of years, like cells regenerate and things,
Speaker 3: you know, our bodies change, and so if that stands
Speaker 3: to be true, why not the same thing for our
Speaker 3: mental health. So it's not like there's something I've studied
Speaker 3: about this or like a major theory that I'm aware of.
Speaker 3: But I definitely think that the whole cycle thing speaks
Speaker 3: to how if we don't, if we don't look at
Speaker 3: underlying issues that are leading us, Yeah, there's going to
Speaker 3: be repetitive behaviors that kind of boomerang around back to us.
Speaker 3: I like to say sometimes it's the Universe's way of saying, well,
Speaker 3: you know, you're you don't get away without you know,
Speaker 3: this hit in your head in the head again for
Speaker 3: you know, the seventh time, or whatever I want. Because
Speaker 3: Countess Lewann doesn't give me the sense again of someone
Speaker 3: who's incredibly comfortable with her emotions, and so and again,
Speaker 3: I think she drank overutilized alcohol because she struggles to
Speaker 3: feel those big emotions too, as evidence by you know,
Speaker 3: having to go into the bathroom finding out that that
Speaker 3: guy had the same birthday as her dad. Right, it
Speaker 3: brought up so much grief. So it just tells me
Speaker 3: that she does have a lot of feelings there that
Speaker 3: she's in process of or maybe not, but that are
Speaker 3: maybe leading her to have some repetitive cycles of some behaviors.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting. All these people are so interesting. I'm
Speaker 2: so happy I got to talk to you about all
Speaker 2: of them because I'm always like armchair ex for psychoanalyzing everybody.
Speaker 2: And so, okay, I would like to wrap it up
Speaker 2: with this. Jack said Jesse really are the same, and
Speaker 2: that's why they're drawn to each other, and that's why
Speaker 2: Jesse's always taking up for Jackson all that stuff. But
Speaker 2: you know, my theory is Jesse's a little smarter. You said,
Speaker 2: his mask is on just a little tighter. Do you
Speaker 2: think in the in the terms of sociopaths, psychopath whatever,
Speaker 2: I definitely think Jackson is there, Jesse, I feel like
Speaker 2: has a little more and it could just be what
Speaker 2: we're seeing on TV, but he seems to have a
Speaker 2: little more paternal feelings or you know, really being into
Speaker 2: like his kid and stuff of what we're seeing on TV.
Speaker 2: Now Michelle will tell you like, yeah, okay, great, not
Speaker 2: so much. He does like the kid with the nanny
Speaker 2: all the time. What are your thoughts on these two
Speaker 2: particular guys as far as if they were your clients
Speaker 2: and you could just broadly diagnose them, if they were
Speaker 2: how to navigate life.
Speaker 3: If they were my client, they would never come back
Speaker 3: because I've worked with men like this my entire career,
Speaker 3: and I've had death threats as a result. Because so
Speaker 3: again I you know, it's a long story, but I
Speaker 3: am unable to be manipulated by men like this. I
Speaker 3: have their number, I understand what's going on. I'm not
Speaker 3: able to be fooled. And so with someone like this,
Speaker 3: when you're not able to be fooled, what do they do?
Speaker 3: They try to like deflect project, well, you used cocaine too,
Speaker 3: or blah blah whatever. So if they were my client,
Speaker 3: which they wouldn't be, because I don't think they really
Speaker 3: want to change. That's the only like when it comes
Speaker 3: to human beings and the question of can they change,
Speaker 3: the only real question is like do they want to?
Speaker 3: Anyone can change under any circumstances if they have the motivation.
Speaker 3: And I don't believe that Jackson is motivated to change
Speaker 3: at all. I think that Jax has been rewarded for
Speaker 3: his bad behavior by becoming famous because of it. I
Speaker 3: believe that Jesse. Here's what I'll say about Jesse. I
Speaker 3: think he feigns more care and kindness and awareness, but
Speaker 3: I don't believe he actually possesses those things because, for example,
Speaker 3: when he went on Watch What Happens Live, he continued
Speaker 3: to kind of blame shift about his behaviors to Michelle.
Speaker 3: And so it's like, well, I think Jacks and Jesse
Speaker 3: are both two people that present differently but have very
Speaker 3: similar pathology. I can't necessarily give a diagnosis, because again
Speaker 3: that wouldn't be ethical, but I can definitely say that
Speaker 3: there is antisocial behaviors. There is for sure a lot
Speaker 3: lack of empathy. And especially here's what I would argue
Speaker 3: with Jesse. Right, Jesse seems like more of a present parent,
Speaker 3: seems being the key word, because if he, in my opinion,
Speaker 3: really cared about his daughter, he would probably treat the
Speaker 3: mother of his daughter right differently, because what happens is
Speaker 3: kids don't learn how to teach others from what they're told.
Speaker 3: They learn by modeling and watching. And so I think
Speaker 3: I'm going to stick with my previous assessment, which is
Speaker 3: I think that Jesse's mac mask is just a fixed
Speaker 3: tighter and it slides less often. Jack's doesn't care if
Speaker 3: the mask comes off because Bravo pays him to take
Speaker 3: it off.
Speaker 2: Until it's still Brittany finally told production what was going
Speaker 2: on and threatened his job, and that's that's what he's
Speaker 2: mad about. He's not mad that she said he did
Speaker 2: cocaine and anything. She's mad that his job is threatened.
Speaker 3: So what does that tell you about Jacks? He literally care. Yeah,
Speaker 3: he only cares about himself. And let's not forget. Do
Speaker 3: you remember one time Jacks was asked the question of like,
Speaker 3: if you were dying of had like a terminal illness,
Speaker 3: what would you do? And he said he would off
Speaker 3: a bunch of people because he wanted to know what
Speaker 3: it felt like.
Speaker 1: That's, uh, that sounds about right.
Speaker 2: That would be your mean who would have that thought?
Speaker 3: And that's my point. It's like, and I don't think
Speaker 3: he says these things for shock value. I think he
Speaker 3: just is. He doesn't need his mask because people like
Speaker 3: on Watch What Happens Live, they did a poll about
Speaker 3: like all the valley men and who would want to
Speaker 3: date who. There were fourteen percent of people that chose
Speaker 3: Jax and Jesse. And I said, fourteen percent of these
Speaker 3: people need to get to therapy a Saparina because that
Speaker 3: is the wildest choice after.
Speaker 1: Watching these men.
Speaker 3: But to point, sometimes when we're young, insecure, we think, oh,
Speaker 3: maybe I could get to Jack's, maybe I could get
Speaker 3: a Jesse. I'd let him abuse me because you know
Speaker 3: it would make me feel something.
Speaker 1: And then I'll be famous too.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, well, I think the difference between Jesse
Speaker 2: and Jackson's You'll see Jesse this past episode said, you know,
Speaker 2: Michelle's got these deep seated hatred towards me.
Speaker 1: And I have no idea why.
Speaker 3: And you're like, bro, I literally wrote that, Mary Payne,
Speaker 3: I wrote, I wrote it, and then I wrote, bro.
Speaker 2: I was like, I didn't know, that's exactly what I wrote.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what.
Speaker 3: I wrote, I wrote, next, but bro, I.
Speaker 1: Love, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2: And then but then on the other hand, Jacks will say,
Speaker 2: I mean, Brittany's really mad at me, and of course
Speaker 2: she has every reason to me I've been a terrible husband.
Speaker 2: But I mean, you know, at the same time, she's
Speaker 2: not a great wife. So he'll say the right thing,
Speaker 2: say the right thing, and then he can't just stop.
Speaker 2: He has to then say but that she did it too.
Speaker 2: I mean, he can't just say she has every reason
Speaker 2: to be mad at me, I get it, and then stop.
Speaker 1: He has to go.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, she's been terrible, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, where Jesse just seems to be like
Speaker 2: on a planet clueless. Oh no, no, no, blame on
Speaker 2: himself for what he's done.
Speaker 3: No, And that's why Jesse, like I said, he feigns
Speaker 3: accountability like Hill when he woke up after like his
Speaker 3: drunken like bloomer freak out, like he was like, I
Speaker 3: understand now that I was wrong, but you know it
Speaker 3: really was Michelle's fault. And it's like, then you don't
Speaker 3: understand that you were wrong. So I definitely think that
Speaker 3: when I'm all for people going into treatment, you know, sobriety, recovery,
Speaker 3: whatever that looks like for them. But based on behaviors,
Speaker 3: I can tell you that Jax is no different than
Speaker 3: he was before, right, And.
Speaker 2: She says, that's what Brittany says. She says, I guess
Speaker 2: he's sober, but he's literally the exact same person. I go, yeah,
Speaker 2: he is.
Speaker 3: And sometimes people get quote unquote they get sober, but
Speaker 3: really what happens is they're dry. Sobriety is a process
Speaker 3: of significant self exploration and work on yourself. It's tedious,
Speaker 3: it's hard. It's the hardest work people have ever done.
Speaker 3: Your husband could attest to that, and it's not hard
Speaker 3: to take the substance away and to have all the
Speaker 3: same behaviors that you had as an addict. That's being dry,
Speaker 3: that's not being sober. And so again, I can't say
Speaker 3: I don't know, but Jack's behaviors tell me that he's
Speaker 3: not working a program where he is looking to be
Speaker 3: accountable for things, because a true accountability lies in I
Speaker 3: did this, full stop. It doesn't matter what someone else does.
Speaker 3: If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and that is the end
Speaker 3: of it. It doesn't matter if someone accepts the apology.
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter what the person did. It's solely on me.
Speaker 3: And when Jesse and Jacks can take that route, then
Speaker 3: to me, that will be a sign that something shifted.
Speaker 3: Until that point, they are just a revolving door of bullshit. Yep.
Speaker 2: Well amen, oh I got that's a good place to
Speaker 2: end it, because wow, yeah, they're revolving doora bullshit.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's just like.
Speaker 2: Jesse jack Jesse Jack's Jesse Jackson just going through that
Speaker 2: revolving dura bullshit. Tell everybody where they can find you
Speaker 2: on social media and where they can find your podcast too.
Speaker 3: Sure, so it is your bish therapist podcast. Bish is
Speaker 3: spelled bish because I can be bitchy, but you know
Speaker 3: that's not a great handle, So it's your bish therapist.
Speaker 2: But it does it does come from Joe Gorga saying
Speaker 2: my bitch wife.
Speaker 3: That's exactly right, right, and it was good Amy, So yes,
Speaker 3: Amy gave me the moniker. Coming from Joe Gorga saying
Speaker 3: that about Teresa, that for sure a playoff of that.
Speaker 3: So you can find me on Instagram. That's my biggest
Speaker 3: social media platform, and my podcast is available anywhere you
Speaker 3: listen to podcasts. I am on YouTube, I am on Patreon,
Speaker 3: your bish therapist on Patreon, I am on Blue Sky, TikTok, Facebook,
Speaker 3: I mean all of the things everywhere. It's always your therapist,
Speaker 3: always your bisch therapist. My Patreon is subscribers and free
Speaker 3: members as well, but then the podcast is also completely free.
Speaker 3: And what I'm doing is I'm offering on Apple podcast,
Speaker 3: on YouTube and on Patreon. I'm offering subscription services for people,
Speaker 3: you know, because people really hate ads and things like that.
Speaker 3: So if you love my podcast and you hate an ad,
Speaker 3: please sign up. We'd love to have you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, subscribe if you want to get that ad
Speaker 2: free stuff. I have that too, on my ten dollars
Speaker 2: level too. I was like, it's all ad free, it's advere,
Speaker 2: you get the medio everything, advery, advere, advery because people
Speaker 2: really will complain about an AD.
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh sure, will Mary Payne.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you know, and then guess what, there
Speaker 1: here's an option for you, right.
Speaker 3: Exactly, because we still got to make that coin, honey.
Speaker 2: Because podcasting at free, agree, and then that's crazy a
Speaker 2: free and it ain't easy. And everybody, if you're listening
Speaker 2: here and you don't follow me, please follow me at
Speaker 2: peink Shade Pod. That's where you can find there'll be
Speaker 2: a fun real about this. I'll come up with it.
Speaker 2: I wrote a couple of notes here revolving door bullshit
Speaker 2: will probably win.
Speaker 1: That's pretty good. That's pretty good. All right, Thank you, Melissa,
Speaker 1: don't hang out. Thank you, thank you,