WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:09.279 Greetings everyone, it's map pro It here. Obviously, we're all 2 00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:11.759 reeling and very heartbroken at the news of the loss 3 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:14.919 of doctor Jeff Meldrim, who was a huge influence on 4 00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:17.320 all of us but a dear friend to both Cliff 5 00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:20.719 and Bobo. Usually on Fridays we re release old episodes 6 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:23.719 that we call classics, but this morning I decided that 7 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:26.000 I think it would be better to release this bonus 8 00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:28.879 episode that we recorded with Jeff Meldrim back in March 9 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:31.679 of twenty twenty three. So this was originally recorded then 10 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:35.520 after we recorded what was our two hundredth episode. This 11 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:39.920 was originally just for members of the podcast, but we 12 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:41.640 wanted to put it out here on the main feed. 13 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:43.920 I know that Cliff and Bobo will have a lot 14 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:48.240 to say about doctor Meldrim and his tremendous contributions to 15 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:51.280 the field at some point in the very near future, 16 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:54.119 but in the meantime, here's an interview that the main 17 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:57.640 listenership hasn't heard, and we hope that everyone enjoys This 18 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:02.679 discussion remembers Jeff and celebrates the many, many contributions that 19 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:03.799 he made to this field. 20 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:06.760 Enjoy the episode. 21 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:12.159 Okay, everybody, welcome to Beyond Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff 22 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:14.840 and Bobo, and we really appreciate your membership. Today we're 23 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:17.480 a continue our conversation with doctor Jeff Meldrim for our 24 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:21.640 two hundredth episode. Jeff, thank you so much for sticking 25 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:22.799 around for a membership section. 26 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:25.319 We really appreciate it. Glad too, Yes, thank you. 27 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:26.400 Thanks. 28 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:29.799 In the main episode, we're having great. I was enjoying 29 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:31.439 the conversation, so I'll call it and call it great, 30 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:35.040 A great conversation about various bits of anatomy and details 31 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:37.280 like that. There's a couple other bits I wanted to 32 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:39.680 ask you about, and then we want to talk a 33 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:42.120 little bit about research, modern and all that sort of 34 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:45.239 stuff and potential. But as far as anatomy goes, one 35 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:46.920 of the things I didn't get a chance to ask 36 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:50.680 you is about their eyes, because much has been made 37 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:55.040 about their eyes with eyeshine or eye reflectivity and all 38 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:58.280 sorts of stuff, and their night vision. But some people 39 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:00.560 Daryl Collier, for example, was on our show and he 40 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:04.280 mentions that from his observations, maybe not visual, but he's 41 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:08.840 had several his observations of sasquatches an area X, he's 42 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:12.199 starting to think that perhaps they don't see as well 43 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.840 at night as people give them credit for. Do you 44 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:18.919 have any thoughts on that or i reflectivity to pede 45 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:20.479 and lucidum or anything like that. 46 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:26.800 Well, sure, if we just first establish an anatomical baseline. 47 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:33.800 So the rule sort of is that higher primates, monkeys 48 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:37.520 and apes do not have a reflecting membrane that to 49 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:41.080 pay them lucidum, and that was seen that the loss 50 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:45.000 of that seems to correspond to to the evolution of 51 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:51.199 the fhovia Centraali's the focal point where there's an area 52 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:58.719 of the retina that is relatively well much more sparsely vascularized, 53 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:01.919 so you don't have the interference of the basku that 54 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:05.599 you realize that our photoreceptive cells are at the back 55 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:08.919 of the retina. We have kind of a back ass 56 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:12.560 word design where the light has to come through several 57 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:16.479 layers of cells being diffracted by the nuclei and other 58 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:24.400 cell structures and as well as the vasculature. So we've 59 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:28.560 evolved this phobious centrallis an area and you may have 60 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:34.080 heard the macula macula that surrounds it. Macular degeneration is 61 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:38.759 a condition that plagues some people, but that area is 62 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:43.919 much more sparsely vascularized, and the overlying layers of cells 63 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:48.719 is thinned out, and the depression has therefore more surface 64 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:53.000 area and a greater concentration of cones, which are much 65 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:57.240 more sensitive to visual acuity. There's a much higher ratio 66 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:03.120 of innervation. Each nerve has fewer receptors, and so it's 67 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:08.199 much more specific in its response to discrete information, you know, 68 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:11.879 discrete photons and so forth. Anyway, so there's that, So 69 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:16.120 there's that distinction. The lower primates, the lemurs and lorises 70 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:22.279 and so forth, they have the reflecting membrane, and many 71 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:27.519 of them are dedicated nocturnal species. Now there's a couple 72 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:31.279 of interesting exceptions. There are a couple of monkey. There's 73 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:34.879 a monkey, a South American monkey, the darakuli, the owl monkey, 74 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:41.519 which has secondarily re evolved nocturnal behaviors. But in the 75 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.000 with the lack of a tapatom, what they have done 76 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:47.920 the strategy is to just greatly increase the absolute size 77 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:53.600 of the eye, so it's light gathering capacity relative to 78 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:58.560 the organism itself is greatly enhanced. I mean, I mean, 79 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:03.519 it's it's really an app salute quality. It's not dependent 80 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:07.439 on the size of the organism. The other example is 81 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:10.600 the tarsire, which is kind of this in between. It's 82 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:14.920 a very primitive, you could say, a very primitive monkey. 83 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:18.800 It kind of straddles the division between the lemurs and 84 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:20.680 lorises on the one hand and the monkeys on the 85 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:23.720 other hand. But in any case, it's similar to monkeys 86 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:25.600 in that it has lost it's to pay them as 87 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:29.439 well and has a phobia. But it is also nocturnal 88 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:32.199 and as a result, its eyes, because it's a small 89 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:36.600 little critter, you know, hamster size, its eyes have gotten enormous, 90 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:39.600 so big that one eye is bigger than its brain. 91 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:44.480 It's huge. They're huge to for that light gathering capacity. 92 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.839 So having said that, with that in mind, what do 93 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:53.600 we have. Oh one other anecdote, a behavioral anecdote, and 94 00:05:53.639 --> 00:06:01.199 that is there was an effort to habituate chimpanzees in 95 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:06.360 Uganda to human interaction in order to try to exploit 96 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:13.959 some eco tourism industry and a researcher that you may know, 97 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:15.680 I don't know if you ever met Owen Caddy. 98 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:18.000 I did meet him very briefly. I can't say I 99 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:20.279 have a relationship with him, but I met him well. 100 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:24.120 Owen was over in Africa with the Peace Corps, and 101 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:27.360 then when his stint was done, he stayed on and 102 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:32.360 got a job as a park ranger in a Uganda 103 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:39.040 excuse me park and they were tasked with this job 104 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:42.759 of trying to habituate the chimps. The problem was the 105 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:46.959 chimps had been so traumatized by all the warfare that 106 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:51.519 was going on in the country that they had become 107 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:56.519 behaviorally nocturnal. That is, they would come out in the 108 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:59.879 twilight hours of the evening to forage and then you know, 109 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:03.120 they would then bed down in the middle of the 110 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:07.600 night and get up before dawn and forage. And but 111 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:10.480 during the daytime they stayed out of side. They stayed 112 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:14.600 in thickets or hidden way up in the canopy, and 113 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:18.279 so they had real trouble finding them. They were so elusive, 114 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:22.920 but they eventually did were able to interact with them. 115 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:25.959 And you know, my question was, well, were they stumbling 116 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:29.439 around in the dark, like did they have white canes? 117 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:31.480 And he said no, it was really quite amazing. They 118 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:35.279 were actually quite adept at getting around by starlight or 119 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:40.279 by moonlight. And you know, you think about it, we 120 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:44.160 get so used to all this light pollution. If you've 121 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:46.720 ever had the chance to be out in the outer 122 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.399 doors for a long period of time, your eyes and 123 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:57.480 your ability to see, do you know you accommodate. I 124 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:02.240 guess nothing is really enhanced. It's just you're powers of 125 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:06.399 navigation and interpretation of what you're experiencing. And you learn 126 00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:10.360 how to see too. Because because of our focal point, 127 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:14.360 because of that phobia and the concentration of cones, that 128 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:18.879 means that that area is less sensitive to dim light, 129 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:23.040 to gray scale light. And so you'll notice this if 130 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:26.199 you go out in the dusk, say you're going out 131 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:29.000 in the parking lot to your car, and you drop 132 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:34.159 your keys. If you look straight for them, straight at them, 133 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:36.559 or where you think they are, you see this kind 134 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:40.159 of a wispy, kind of ghostly mist that sort of 135 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:43.960 obscures your vision at that point. If you look just 136 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:46.960 to the side of your keys, so that the image 137 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:49.960 of the keys falls more on your peripheral vision, where 138 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:53.960 there's a much higher proportion of rods, you can see it. 139 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:56.080 You can't see it quite as clearly as you would 140 00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:59.360 in daytime, you know, on your focal point, but you 141 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:01.519 can see it. Try that experiment home and you'll be 142 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:02.519 really quite amazed. 143 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.080 One of the things we used to teach newcomers on 144 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:07.679 finding Bigfoot, and we had the trump around on logging 145 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:10.720 roads all nights is a it's a technique called averted vision, 146 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:14.159 which is something I picked up from my amateur astronomy pursuits. 147 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:17.559 When you're looking at faint and nebu lee or galaxies 148 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:19.960 or anything like that, they don't contrast against the dark 149 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:23.240 background very well. So it sounds like a very zen 150 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:25.399 thing to say, is that if you want to if 151 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:27.159 you want to see it, don't look at. 152 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:32.480 It right exactly. And it's a technique that you have 153 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:34.279 to a skilled you kind of have to develop a 154 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:38.519 little bit. It's because it's counterintuitive. It's not a natural 155 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:41.240 thing to do. But once you discover it, you you 156 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:44.039 can pick up on it anyway. So with all that 157 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:49.440 in mind, the plasticity of behavior in the chimp, which 158 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:52.639 is otherwise a diurnal you know, lacking the to pay them, 159 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:58.240 and the strategy exhibited by those very few species who 160 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:02.399 have secondarily gone back to knock internality by simply increasing 161 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:06.200 the absolute size of the eye. Now think about sasquatch, 162 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:10.320 So what what might be Maybe the capacity is much 163 00:10:10.360 --> 00:10:14.799 greater and as far as sensitivity and into the infrared. 164 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:17.639 You know, I don't know of any studies that have 165 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:21.639 really engaged that. The questions have really never been asked 166 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:25.840 where that that kind of data has been collected for 167 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:29.519 great apes or monkeys, to be quite honest, to see 168 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:32.399 what kind of variation. We have a limited number of 169 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:35.720 species to draw from anyway, and you can't You've got 170 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:39.639 to avoid falling into the trap that chimps and gorillas 171 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:44.240 and rings represent all of apeedum. They don't, you know, 172 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:48.759 They're a narrow, narrow sample, you know, could be a 173 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:54.080 very skewed representation of the different strategies that other apes 174 00:10:54.120 --> 00:11:03.919 have evolved. Anyway, But take size. If if that cranium 175 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:07.960 scales up to the size of a sasquatch, and the 176 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:11.840 eyes have scaled isometrically, in other words, they've kept the 177 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.519 same proportions, they've gotten really big. The eye of a 178 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:19.080 sasquatch would be like the size of a tennis ball, 179 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:25.000 and much like the increased size of the owl, monkey 180 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:29.240 or the tars here, it would have greater light gathering 181 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:33.840 capacity than would a human under the same circumstances. 182 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:35.960 Well, you know what I think of a tars here 183 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.360 as well, they're cute little guys. They are hanging in 184 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:40.000 the trees and stuff. But one of the things that 185 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:42.799 stands out is sure they have big eyes, but the 186 00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:45.399 almost the entirety of their eye is taking up by 187 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:48.600 the iris, which which is just a muscle for opening 188 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.399 up the lens anyway, or focusing the lens and opening 189 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:53.840 up the aperture of the eye, rather. 190 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:56.000 Open up the aperture of the pupil. And that was 191 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:57.759 the next point I was going to make, is that 192 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:01.759 is that with that eyeball the size of a tennis 193 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.000 ball and then an iris or a pupil that can 194 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:10.399 open up remarkably largely. And many people you know, have 195 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:15.559 talked about sasquatch eyes being these dark, deep dark, you know, 196 00:12:15.559 --> 00:12:18.799 almost alien eyes. And if you've looked at the tars here, 197 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:24.799 that isn't that isn't blinded by the photographer's flash at night. 198 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:27.960 Its eye, its pupil is enormous, like you said, it 199 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:32.080 nearly fills the whole visible portion of the of the eye. 200 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:37.519 And so so yeah, I think those combinations would allow 201 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:43.480 a sasquatch to and and clearly they're not strictly and 202 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:49.240 absolutely only nocturnal. I mean, when was Patty encountered, you know, 203 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:52.720 in the afternoon. So I think that there again there's 204 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:58.120 some behavioral plasticity as well, and it may be that 205 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:02.360 the nocturnality is as well. It could be one of 206 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:08.440 two things, at least avoiding interaction with humans, but also 207 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:15.840 partitioning the large omnivore niche with bears which have rather 208 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:21.440 maybe just to offset your activity profile. That is a 209 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:27.360 well documented strategy that other sympatric species species that occupy 210 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:33.480 the same region utilized in order to differentiate similar niches. 211 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:40.720 Is dividing up the activity profile, the daily activity profile 212 00:13:41.159 --> 00:13:44.080 when you're out, so that you're not out at times 213 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.200 that you're going to be in direct competition with or 214 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:49.519 interaction with a competing species. 215 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:52.720 Hey, Jeff, have you heard about people talking about there 216 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:55.000 being the secondary eyelid that comes out from the side 217 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:59.879 like a reptile. And then also the person I heard 218 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.960 talking about said like astrolopithesene or some early hominid hominids 219 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:07.600 had that same feature. 220 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:08.399 Is that true? 221 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:11.200 Well, I haven't. I haven't heard that, and there'd be 222 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:15.000 no way to infer that from the skeleton. We don't 223 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:19.039 even have a good There isn't a good correlation between 224 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:24.399 the bony orbit and the size of the eyeball across 225 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.600 species comparisons. You know, So some people have looked at 226 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:31.600 you look at a Neanderthal skull, and their orbits are 227 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:37.919 noticeably larger in proportion to their skull than are human orbits. 228 00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:40.679 And some have said, well, that's because they must have 229 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:44.559 had bigger eyes and they were nocturnal predators, see they 230 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:48.519 evolve nocturnality. Well that's possible, but when you go and 231 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:54.639 look at a whole array of other species of primate, 232 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:58.480 great apes and monkeys, there isn't a real tight correlation 233 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:02.120 between those those two measures. So you're you know, you're 234 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:04.879 going out a limb. But as far as the third eyelid, 235 00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:10.080 that nictitating membrane, you know, like your dog has, you 236 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:13.399 you know there, it's not present in primates. It's it's 237 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:19.600 very rudimentary in humans and great apes, it's just not 238 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:24.399 it doesn't slide across. We had a dog who was 239 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:29.919 just hated to have its fingers toenails clipped and so. 240 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:31.759 And he was big enough and strong enough. It was 241 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:34.360 hard to handle and you'd get scratch. He wouldn't bite 242 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:37.159 or any but he'd scratch and claw and and so 243 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:41.679 my my wife would slip him a happy pill sedatium 244 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:45.399 a little bit, and for like the next eight hours, 245 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.360 his his third eyelid would come over about half It's 246 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:50.399 like he lost control of it and it would come 247 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:52.759 over about halfway across his eye. It was the funniest 248 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:57.159 looking thing. The poor guy was so spaced out. But 249 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.840 as far as I know, primates don't have that quality, 250 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:01.519 that feature. 251 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:04.440 Have you heard anyone any witnesses describers. I've heard some 252 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:08.360 good witness descriptions up close studying as they said, they 253 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:09.480 definitely saw that. 254 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:13.080 And did it? Did it go across like a windshield wiper? 255 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:14.480 I mean, is that did they notice it like that 256 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:15.519 or was it just. 257 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.639 I guess when they blinked that that the what do 258 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:23.159 you call it, the nictitating nictitating membrane? Yeah, slid across, Yeah, 259 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.080 that would go That would be like almost all it 260 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:27.639 would be like halfway across whatever. 261 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:29.000 Then the top one would come down. 262 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:31.559 Well, I could I could go back to literature and 263 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:36.559 look in my my familiarity with anatomy doesn't include any 264 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:42.639 description of that feature being present in I we'd have 265 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.840 no way to assess it from the fossil record obviously, 266 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:50.960 and it's certainly not present in humans, but it could look. 267 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:55.879 If the nocturnal tendencies, because they're certainly not strictly nocturnal, 268 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:59.639 the tendencies of sasquash be nocturnal, have developed some sort 269 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:04.079 of a greater nocturnal vision in low light vision, and 270 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:08.680 it's it's based almost solely on just a different design 271 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:11.079 of the eye, like a larger eye, a larger perhaps 272 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.119 pupill area opening that sort of thing. Let alone, it 273 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:16.039 could change the shape I mean, I guess owls have 274 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:17.960 a different shape of their eye that like almost like 275 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:21.839 a cylinder, which somehow amplifies the light for them. But 276 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.119 if that those are the things going on, then this 277 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:29.440 red eyeshine that is often reported, could that be a 278 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:31.880 different a different expression of the same sort of thing 279 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:33.839 where you take a picture with the flash and you 280 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.480 know Grandma has red eyes at Christmas. 281 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:41.119 Right exactly so, so a very large pupil opened up 282 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:46.640 would and and if if there is you know, the 283 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:51.839 right perspective by the viewer, they might see that highly 284 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:56.920 vascularized retina, which in the absence of it to pay 285 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:02.440 them where there are you know, molecules that help to 286 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:07.000 reflect and depending on which what the molecular profile is, 287 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:10.680 there's a yellow eye shine or a blue eye shine 288 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:13.160 or a green eye shine. It just has to do 289 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:16.920 with whatever crystals, whatever molecules are in the tapayed them. 290 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:20.680 But in the absence of that, the pinki the phenomenon 291 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.920 you described that, you know, the photographer's bane of pink 292 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:28.759 eye that seems to particularly afflict those with lighter colored, 293 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:34.400 less pigmented irises. But also when the pupil is dilated, 294 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.680 there's more tendency for a pink eie effect. You know, 295 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:40.680 it doesn't really if the flash is fast enough and 296 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:46.839 short aperture time, exposure time, then sometimes the constriction of 297 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:53.440 the pupil doesn't eliminate it. Yeah, that would now people 298 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.000 who argue that they are self illuminating, that their eyes 299 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:02.720 glow in like in the daylight. I mean, first of all, 300 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.880 stop and think about it. It h if such a 301 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.480 phenomenon did occur, it would make no sense for it 302 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:16.400 to occur within the eyeball. If you if there was 303 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:21.079 tissue within the eyeball that could self illuminate, it would 304 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:26.279 just scramble any incoming visual signal. I mean, it'd be 305 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:29.319 like someone shine in a flashlight in your eye. Now, 306 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:31.240 So the only thing that would make sense is if 307 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:37.119 there was something in the say the iris, that was 308 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.960 illuminating in response to the light or something or I 309 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:46.759 can't imagine any mechanism or any selection pressure for uh 310 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:51.480 for for self illuminating irises. But then again, if if 311 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:55.880 our earlier discussion about extreme enlargement of the pupil is 312 00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:58.720 true to the point that it feels the visible you know, 313 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:03.759 covers the visible the iris is pulled back completely, then 314 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:08.559 that does that explanation doesn't work very well because you 315 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:11.720 wouldn't you know, there wouldn't be much iris left there 316 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:18.440 to illuminate to give off light. So I'm my experience 317 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:22.200 has been and I hate to make generalizations, but drawing 318 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:27.279 upon my direct experience when people have shown me eyeshine, 319 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:32.000 I mean, we had one experience where the witness you know, 320 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.839 immediately pointed out eye shine, Oh there, look there it is, 321 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:37.599 that was it, and he claimed, you know, these eyes 322 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:40.160 were eight feet up in the air. Well, we went 323 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.319 and investigated, and there was a recent duff of snow 324 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:50.200 quarter inch of wet snow on the ground, and we 325 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:52.599 found that they weren't eight feet up in the air 326 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.480 because it was a slope that you couldn't see from 327 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:58.519 our vantage point that once you got there, the eyes were, 328 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:01.319 if anything, were on the lower branches of this tree. 329 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:05.519 And guess what was right underneath the tree? A set 330 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:10.000 of raccoon tracks, as clear as could be. And I go, okay, well, 331 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.839 let's just you know, evaluate this. We we've saw glowing 332 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.640 eyes that were very characteristic of a reflection from a 333 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:21.720 night vision to pay them, lucid them and it was 334 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:24.880 close to the ground, and there are raccoon tracks, but 335 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:30.759 no sasquad tracks. What do you think you saw? And man, 336 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:32.480 it was tough to get him to admit, oh, it 337 00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:37.240 was probably just a raccoon. But that's been my experience 338 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:41.119 is that people overinterpret their what they see. 339 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:44.519 And belief is a real strong drug. Oh yeah, it 340 00:21:44.599 --> 00:21:48.000 really is. Well, Belief confriended with evidence is a is 341 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.160 a paradigm shaking moment. A lot of people aren't very 342 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:51.559 uncomfortable with that, I think. 343 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.799 Especially when you have a dose of ego mixed in 344 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:54.599 for levining. 345 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:58.920 Now, Bob, but you want to ask about some research 346 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:01.319 and whatnot, do you anything right off the cover. I 347 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:03.000 can take the lead on this one because I've got 348 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.279 a couple of things I'd like to ask. 349 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:06.599 Yeah, go go ahead, Well. 350 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:10.599 Okay, so Jeff, as far as current or future research 351 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:15.240 or even past research, what do you think is valuable? 352 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.200 And my own my own, my own position, of course 353 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.880 is people should enjoy the subjects in whatever way they 354 00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:26.720 are most interested, if they want to take stories from people, 355 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:29.200 and and that's that's great, do that sort of stuff. 356 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:32.559 But but what do you think is going to push 357 00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:35.359 the ball a little further down the field in the 358 00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:37.039 absence of a type specimen? 359 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:41.960 Yeah, that's and that that ultimate question, that's really the 360 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.319 you know, the brass ring. That's the take home message. 361 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:50.119 And I think that the best well I've I've often 362 00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.759 advocated that I think there's there's two lines of two 363 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:59.240 directions of research that will possibly push it forward, push 364 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:02.680 the question for and that is short of a type specimen, 365 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:07.039 a DNA voucher, there already is a DNA specimen, a 366 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.279 voucher specimen of DNA that can be replicated and sequenced 367 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:16.200 and identified as an unknown And see, that's that's part 368 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:17.000 of the problem, right. 369 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:18.720 There is that in gen Bank. 370 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:21.799 Well, that's just it. We don't have any known specimen 371 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:25.519 of sasquatch DNA in a gen bank, and so most 372 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:31.759 identifications occur by taking the the sample in question and 373 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:35.240 comparing the sequence to those that have been cataloged in 374 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:39.039 the gen bank. So it's kind of like with identifying hair. 375 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:43.799 You know, hair is typically identified by comparing an unknown 376 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:49.960 to a known specimen, a catalog specimen. And without a 377 00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:54.160 known sasquatch hair, all we can conclude is that that 378 00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:57.799 this hair has primate like characteristics. 379 00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:59.839 There's a fully sequence genail that's on. 380 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:04.440 No, I say, if there was, if there so, so yeah, 381 00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:06.960 well I'm saying, I'm saying the best you could hope 382 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:10.759 for is if you had a sample that indeed was 383 00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:15.119 with sasquatch. Is that your investigator, your analyst would say, well, 384 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:19.400 this is unknown. It matches nothing in gene bank, gen 385 00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:23.240 bank or gen bank, and so and just like with hair, 386 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:27.039 we can say, well, this hair doesn't match any known wildlife. 387 00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:32.319 It's an unknown. So but but these all these unknowns 388 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:37.400 are remarkably consistent and uh and you know, attest to 389 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:44.400 originating from some some consistent species, you know. And so 390 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.559 same with the DNA. If if we got multiple samples 391 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:51.680 that were identical to one another, and could not be 392 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:57.599 matched to any known sample, then that would potentially represent 393 00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:02.079 an unknown species. And then what you do is you 394 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:05.039 go in and compare it to the gnomes and you 395 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.759 and there are techniques that allow you to determine what 396 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:12.599 its nearest neighbors are, which group does it cluster with, 397 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:17.920 based on derived traits derived sequences, and then you know, 398 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.559 you could say, well this this most closely matches or 399 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:27.319 clusters with a clade of great apes, or it is 400 00:25:28.119 --> 00:25:31.240 most similar to human to the exclusion of all other apes. 401 00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:36.200