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<v Speaker 1>So just as we discover pain with the customers, we

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<v Speaker 1>need to discover REPS challenges. And when we align to

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<v Speaker 1>a customer's value drivers, we need to align to the

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<v Speaker 1>REPS goals.

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<v Speaker 2>You're listening to the audible Ready Podcast, the show that

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<v Speaker 2>helps you and your teams sell more faster. We'll feature

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<v Speaker 2>sales leaders sharing their best insights on how to create

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<v Speaker 2>a sales engine that helps you fuel repeatable revenue growth.

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<v Speaker 2>Presented by the team at Force Management, a leader in

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<v Speaker 2>B to B sales effectiveness. Let's get started.

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<v Speaker 3>Hello and welcome to the Audible Ready Sales Podcast. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>Rachel Klett Miller. Joining me today is our own John Bony.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi. John, Hey, Rachel, how are you great to see

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<v Speaker 1>you and hear you again?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, thank you for coming back on the podcast. John

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<v Speaker 3>brought me this topic and I love it because it's

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<v Speaker 3>a different take on offering value as a manager as

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<v Speaker 3>a leader. You know, we talk about the fact that

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<v Speaker 3>you have to do that, and it's a structured conversation. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>If you're going to do it well, you want to

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<v Speaker 3>offer value, you got to offer some motivation and we

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<v Speaker 3>talk about value based conversations all the time, Right, It's

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<v Speaker 3>a corner stone of command of the message, but frame

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<v Speaker 3>it with customers. So if we so if we take

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<v Speaker 3>that concept of that mindset and think about it as

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<v Speaker 3>we're talking to our team members, what does that look like?

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<v Speaker 3>So that's what we're going to talk about today. So John,

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<v Speaker 3>let's just start right there. What does it look like

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<v Speaker 3>when we take that rigor of command of the message,

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<v Speaker 3>aligning value to the conversation and what's in it for

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<v Speaker 3>them to coaching our reps?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Really good. So this is absolutely a conversation and

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<v Speaker 1>a topic that I'm super passionate about. And the more

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<v Speaker 1>I've put thought into this, the more it teems to

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<v Speaker 1>make sense around when we think about command of the

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<v Speaker 1>message and we think about this as it relates to

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<v Speaker 1>coaching our reps, it means treating our reps like we

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<v Speaker 1>treat our customers through structured discovery and alignment to value.

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<v Speaker 1>You mentioned value a couple of times as you are

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<v Speaker 1>kind of doing the intro, and that allows us to

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<v Speaker 1>guide appropriate development with the person that we're in front of.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, oftentimes we find that the reps don't feel

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<v Speaker 1>like the one on ones are valuable because we as

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<v Speaker 1>leaders sometimes don't take the time to determine what is

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<v Speaker 1>Rachel going to find value in this count? How is

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<v Speaker 1>she going to find value in this conversation? So instead

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<v Speaker 1>of telling reps what to do, we need to ask

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<v Speaker 1>open ended questions and uncover their challenges and motivations and

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<v Speaker 1>blockers that are getting in the way. So, just as

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<v Speaker 1>we discover pain with the customers, we need to discover

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<v Speaker 1>reps challenges. And when we align to a customer's value drivers,

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<v Speaker 1>we need to align to the rep's goals and when

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<v Speaker 1>we guide the customer's decision process, similarly, when we're coaching reps,

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<v Speaker 1>we need to guide the rep to a development process.

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<v Speaker 1>And so this approach transformed coaching from a reactive task

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<v Speaker 1>to a strategic leadership discipline where every conversation is an

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<v Speaker 1>opportunity to drive growth, not just hit a number and

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<v Speaker 1>go accomplish performance.

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<v Speaker 3>Right when you talk about, you know, developing a team member,

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<v Speaker 3>it's about showing them the value of changing their behaviors

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<v Speaker 3>or doing it in a different way, or putting a

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<v Speaker 3>discipline around it. And we talk a lot about when

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<v Speaker 3>we're looking at opportunities or like deal reviews, we say

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<v Speaker 3>don't call them deal inspection session, it's deal coaching. It's

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<v Speaker 3>not opportunity inspection. It's opportunity coaching to try to get

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<v Speaker 3>to that value based approach. And we know that coaching

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<v Speaker 3>is learned, right, Great coaching is learned, and it's about

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<v Speaker 3>developing that muscle in yourself to be a great coach.

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<v Speaker 3>And it starts with kind of shifting that mindset. Can

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<v Speaker 3>you talk a little bit about that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you said something about developing a muscle. And

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<v Speaker 1>one of the analogies that I've used, and this has

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<v Speaker 1>had this conversation so many times, that it's coaching is

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<v Speaker 1>a skillet. And it would be like taking a lawyer

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<v Speaker 1>who has a skill set in the law and saying, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>tomorrow we're going to have you go into surgery and

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to perform lung surgery. Here's the scalpel ready go.

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<v Speaker 1>They don't know the skill, they don't know what's needed,

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<v Speaker 1>they don't know how to accomplish the task that needs

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<v Speaker 1>to be accomplished. So coaching isn't about fixing people, it's

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<v Speaker 1>about developing them. And there's a book that's out there

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<v Speaker 1>by Keith Rosen and he puts it best by saying,

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<v Speaker 1>stop solving and start coaching. When leaders treat coaching as

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<v Speaker 1>a corrective action, it becomes punitive reactive, right, But when

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<v Speaker 1>it's seen as a core to leadership competency, it becomes proactive,

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<v Speaker 1>it becomes empowering, it becomes consistent. And so the mindset

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<v Speaker 1>shift goes to building trust in psychological safety with your rep. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>you've got to build that trust in safety, and it

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<v Speaker 1>encourages reps to have self reflection and be able to

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<v Speaker 1>self assas as to take ownership and the challenges that

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<v Speaker 1>they're trying to overcome too, and that in turn will

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<v Speaker 1>drive long term capabilities and not just short term compliance

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<v Speaker 1>meaning they're just doing the task to be compliant. They're

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<v Speaker 1>becoming capable of teach a person how to fish versus

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<v Speaker 1>catch the fish forum, and so you teach them how

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<v Speaker 1>to fish. In a nutshell, that's the difference between managing

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<v Speaker 1>for results versus leading for growth in some of those

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<v Speaker 1>competencies that are needed. It's about taking the time to

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<v Speaker 1>stop solving and start coaching.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you mentioned some of those value based selling

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<v Speaker 3>concepts at the top. When we talk about when you

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<v Speaker 3>command your message, you really have to have a shift

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<v Speaker 3>in mindset. So talk a little bit about how that

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<v Speaker 3>value based coaching mirrors that shift from value based selling

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<v Speaker 3>make that jump for us.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so the value by coaching, it's basically the internal

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<v Speaker 1>mirror of the value based selling, right, kind of what

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<v Speaker 1>we've been talking about. And in both cases, the goal

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<v Speaker 1>is to uncover what matters most, whether it's to a

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<v Speaker 1>customer or to a rent and to align your approach accordingly.

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<v Speaker 1>And so you know, we oftentimes as sales leaders, we

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<v Speaker 1>will get on our teams about pre call planning and

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<v Speaker 1>making sure they have good discovery questions and doing all

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<v Speaker 1>the prep work that comes into it. But again, how

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<v Speaker 1>often do we find ourselves before we go into a

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<v Speaker 1>one on one conversation or an opportunity coaching session or

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<v Speaker 1>whatever it may be, and we're going in with two

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<v Speaker 1>to three five minutes of preparation because of everything that's

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<v Speaker 1>on our plate. Fully aware that there's so many things

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<v Speaker 1>that sit on the frontline. Leaders played, all leaders play

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<v Speaker 1>everybody's plate, but we've got to take the time to

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<v Speaker 1>prepare again to understand that each person is going to

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<v Speaker 1>have different value and how do we bring that value tone?

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<v Speaker 1>And so in selling, again, we uncover paying, we align

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<v Speaker 1>the outcomes, We guide the buying process when we're coaching

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<v Speaker 1>similar to what I said before, We're uncovering those challenges,

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<v Speaker 1>we're aligning to the personal and professional goals and then

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<v Speaker 1>guiding that development journey along the way, getting them from

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<v Speaker 1>where they want to be to where they want to go.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'll never forget this. I had a leader that

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<v Speaker 1>I worked for early in my career and he sat

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<v Speaker 1>down with me and he had this conversation. This is

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<v Speaker 1>really where this started to get instilled with me. Is

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<v Speaker 1>he said to me, And through the conversational understanding what

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<v Speaker 1>was important to me, he said, look down, I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>here to make you a better salesperson or a better

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<v Speaker 1>leader or any of those things. I'm here because I

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<v Speaker 1>want to help you be a better brother, a better husband,

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<v Speaker 1>a better father, a better son, and be a better

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<v Speaker 1>person in life. And that just stuck with me forever.

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<v Speaker 1>It still sticks with me to this day because he

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<v Speaker 1>took the time to understand what was important to me. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>whether you said that to everybody, I don't know. He

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<v Speaker 1>said it to me, and that was important to me,

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<v Speaker 1>and in turn, I ended up being a successful rep

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<v Speaker 1>and a successful leader because of the time he took

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<v Speaker 1>to understand and then coach me on the behaviors that

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<v Speaker 1>were necessary. So at the end of the day, the

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<v Speaker 1>value based coaching mirror versus the value based selling. They

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<v Speaker 1>both require curiosity over control. Right, we have to continue

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<v Speaker 1>to be curious. I often will say to the sales

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<v Speaker 1>leaders when we're doing our manager coaching day that the

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<v Speaker 1>little kid in us has to continue to come out

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<v Speaker 1>be asking the why. Right. Little kids are very good

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<v Speaker 1>at asking questions that we sometimes can't answer, but the

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<v Speaker 1>curiosity over for control, and when they succeed, we tend

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<v Speaker 1>to ask more and talk less. Similarly to when we're

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<v Speaker 1>in front of our customer, we should be having our

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<v Speaker 1>customer talk more than we're talking. So when you come

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<v Speaker 1>out of a one on one and you're working with

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<v Speaker 1>one of your reps, ask yourself who talked more? If

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<v Speaker 1>you spoke more, then you're probably taking control of the

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<v Speaker 1>conversation and the rep may not be seeing the value

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<v Speaker 1>that's necessary for them to want to come back the

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<v Speaker 1>second time. So the same discovery mindset that wins deals

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<v Speaker 1>also builds our reps and their productivity plan and their

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<v Speaker 1>journey for development down the road.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's really good. I'm reminded of a Revenue Builders

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<v Speaker 3>episode we did with Mark Thurman, who is now at

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<v Speaker 3>Tenable I believe COO, and he talked about how he

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<v Speaker 3>felt like his job for his sales team was to

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<v Speaker 3>remove obstacles, like that is my job to get obstacles

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<v Speaker 3>out of their way. And so when we compare like this,

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<v Speaker 3>value based coaching to value based selling. In these coaching sessions,

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<v Speaker 3>your reps have challenges, right, they have pain points. And

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<v Speaker 3>you may look at the data and see, okay, well

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<v Speaker 3>their deal sizes are too small, or they're not getting

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<v Speaker 3>enough meetings, Like you can see the what, but you

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<v Speaker 3>might not know why it's happening and why they're having

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<v Speaker 3>these challenges. So talk a little bit about how a

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<v Speaker 3>great manager can uncover those challenges, those pain points, those

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<v Speaker 3>obstacles using the same way they uncover customer pain.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it's discovery questions, right. It is taking the

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<v Speaker 1>time to prepare before we walk in and again reflecting

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<v Speaker 1>on if I'm going to sit down with you, Rachel,

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<v Speaker 1>understanding what's valuable to you, what's going on in your world.

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<v Speaker 1>I've done a little bit of homework and I understand

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<v Speaker 1>your situation with what's going on with your accounts, your territory,

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<v Speaker 1>your quarter, whatever, it may be, and I'm asking discovery

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<v Speaker 1>questions to surface what's really going on beneath the surface.

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<v Speaker 1>So some examples of some questions, and I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>leverage some of the things that we teach day in

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<v Speaker 1>and day out, leveraging ted tell, explain, describe so, and

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<v Speaker 1>walk me through, which happens to be one of the

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<v Speaker 1>first questions that I'm gonna ask, walk me through your

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<v Speaker 1>goal for this quarter. What's getting in the way. You

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<v Speaker 1>had just mentioned removing obstacles. I got to help remove

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<v Speaker 1>that obstacle. I'm probably aware of the goal. There may

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<v Speaker 1>be a shift since our last conversation based off of

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<v Speaker 1>client interactions. Clients things that move and change, But I

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<v Speaker 1>really want to know what's getting in the way and

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<v Speaker 1>how can I help you to get some of those obstacles,

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<v Speaker 1>as you said, out of the way. So that's one example.

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<v Speaker 1>Explain what you might do differently if you had to

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<v Speaker 1>do a deal over again and have them walk through again.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm getting them to ask some open ended questions just

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<v Speaker 1>to get their thought processes, versus me telling them you

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<v Speaker 1>should do this, you should do this, you should do this.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to help them. It's the art of persuasion.

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<v Speaker 1>It's getting them to come to their own conclusions through

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<v Speaker 1>the conversation that we're having. Another example, describe what support

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<v Speaker 1>you need form me to move this deal forward? Again,

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<v Speaker 1>obstacles in the way? What help do you need? What's

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<v Speaker 1>in the way, And if they're unwilling to answer that

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<v Speaker 1>question because of pride, because of ego, whatever it may be,

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<v Speaker 1>you got to dig deeper right understanding that the deal

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<v Speaker 1>may be stuck and it could take you into a

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<v Speaker 1>qualification discussion around medic to determine what is in the way,

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<v Speaker 1>and then trying to determine what the plan can be

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<v Speaker 1>for both of you to advance that deal forward. Then

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<v Speaker 1>the last example I have is tell me how you

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<v Speaker 1>think the customer perceived your last conversation, which I think

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<v Speaker 1>is a really insightful conversation. One. Are we aware of

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<v Speaker 1>how the customer was feeling when we're in that conversation

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<v Speaker 1>where we again in a tell, tell, tell mode, similar

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<v Speaker 1>to what we do when we're in a coaching situation,

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<v Speaker 1>or we trying to engage them in a discussion, helping

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<v Speaker 1>them to come to a conclusion, being consultative, having them

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<v Speaker 1>talk more than we talk to understand what are the

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<v Speaker 1>pains within their organization or department, or team, or whatever

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<v Speaker 1>the case may be. So those questions mirror the ones

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<v Speaker 1>we ask a customer to uncover pain and obstacles. They

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<v Speaker 1>invite reps to reflect. It gets them to own their development,

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<v Speaker 1>It engages in a two way conversation. So again, very

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<v Speaker 1>similar to the things we try to teach around command

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<v Speaker 1>of the message. It's applying those same concepts to how

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<v Speaker 1>do we have the internal conversation that we need to

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<v Speaker 1>have with the people that are on our teams.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I bring up revenue Builders again because we've been

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<v Speaker 3>covering like great coaching and great leadership recently a lot

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<v Speaker 3>in that show, and John McMahon often says, you have

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<v Speaker 3>to figure out with your people what drives them because

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<v Speaker 3>what drives from one person is going to to be

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<v Speaker 3>different than what drives or motivates somebody else. And you've

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<v Speaker 3>had some great questions there as it relates to those deals.

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<v Speaker 3>But there's also some discovery that you probably want to

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<v Speaker 3>do around like what motivates your people, And there's probably

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<v Speaker 3>some good questions to use around that area as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, another really good point that understanding people's motivations goals.

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<v Speaker 1>I like to kind of frame it up in this

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<v Speaker 1>phase of skills, goals and interests, right, whether the goals

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<v Speaker 1>and interests is really what we're talking about here from

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<v Speaker 1>the standpoint of what are they really interested in? What

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<v Speaker 1>are the goals, how do they want to get there?

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<v Speaker 1>And again, leaders approaching reps very similar in the discovery

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<v Speaker 1>call of it can become more collaborative and insightful and

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<v Speaker 1>impactful if we take the time to build these questions

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<v Speaker 1>rather than just jumping to the solutions. To mention this before,

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<v Speaker 1>we would listen more than we would speak. We would

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<v Speaker 1>ask the open ended questions using tell, explain, describe, walk

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<v Speaker 1>me through, and seek to understandable before advising, and before

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<v Speaker 1>I kind of list off a couple of questions that

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<v Speaker 1>I think would be benefit. I often will tell people, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>try this at home. Yeah, how often do we find

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<v Speaker 1>ourselves trying to solve the problem versus taking a time

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<v Speaker 1>to listen to understand, whether it's with our significant other

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<v Speaker 1>or it's with our kids. We immediately come in with

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<v Speaker 1>the answer, here's what you need to go do. And

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<v Speaker 1>again we're teaching. Are we teaching how to fish? Or

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<v Speaker 1>are we just giving the fish to somebody? And saying,

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<v Speaker 1>here's your meal and so great coaching questions. Some of

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<v Speaker 1>the examples that I have, there's again, what do you

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<v Speaker 1>think is getting in your way of success? And walk

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<v Speaker 1>me through your biggest challenge in your deal that you have.

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<v Speaker 1>Right now, what have you tried so far? Tell me

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<v Speaker 1>what success would look like for you in this quarter? Right?

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of like again Ted, tying it back to

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<v Speaker 1>that value based conversation, what's the future look like? What's

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<v Speaker 1>the art of the possible? How do we get you

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<v Speaker 1>from where you are today to where you need to be? So?

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<v Speaker 1>What does success look like for you in this quarter?

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<v Speaker 1>And if there was one thing that you could describe

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<v Speaker 1>that you would like to improve on, what would it

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<v Speaker 1>be and why? And so now I'm starting to understand

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit more about the person about what it

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<v Speaker 1>is the success to them. Success for them in the

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<v Speaker 1>quarter it might not be for them, and every person's different,

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<v Speaker 1>as you said, It might not be a number. It

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<v Speaker 1>might be something totally unrelated to what happens at work,

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<v Speaker 1>but work contributes to that other success that they're looking for.

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<v Speaker 1>Success for me would be making this up, Rachel, but

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<v Speaker 1>it could be being able to pay in cash from

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<v Speaker 1>my child's tuition that they have for this upcoming quarter. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>that's important. So the contribution of what I do at

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<v Speaker 1>work is going to contribute to how I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>be able to afford to do that. Eying it back

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<v Speaker 1>to a very personal thing, because I want to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to put my child through the best education that

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<v Speaker 1>I can. Yeah, and it's just taking that time to understand,

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<v Speaker 1>like what are the goals, what are the motivations? How

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<v Speaker 1>do you get from where you are to where you

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<v Speaker 1>want to be?

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<v Speaker 3>What are the value drivers for those people?

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<v Speaker 2>Right?

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<v Speaker 1>That's exactly right, exactly right.

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<v Speaker 3>Some great things to think about, John, for our conversations

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<v Speaker 3>this week this quarter, wrap it up for us. How

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<v Speaker 3>about a small shift a leader can make just this

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<v Speaker 3>week in these conversations they're having to start coaching more

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<v Speaker 3>effectively command that coaching message.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think there's a few things, and I'll start

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<v Speaker 1>with a simple mindset shift. And I'll give you three

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<v Speaker 1>things that I think you can do right away. One,

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<v Speaker 1>slow down before you speed up, slow down the impulse

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<v Speaker 1>to solve, and just take the time to listen and understand.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the best leaders I ever worked for, she

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<v Speaker 1>was one of the by far one of the best

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<v Speaker 1>leaders I ever worked for. Always took the time to

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<v Speaker 1>listen and never just instinctively reacted. Would come back the

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<v Speaker 1>next day and say, hey, I put some thought into this.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's what my thought process was. And every time she

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<v Speaker 1>would always ask what my perspective was. First, she wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to know what I thought about overnight. My perspective was.

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<v Speaker 1>The other thing is create space for reps to reflect.

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<v Speaker 1>You've got to create that safe space. How do we

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<v Speaker 1>create that time and space for somebody to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to have some reflection, to be able to come back

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<v Speaker 1>and have the answers necessary and feel safe in a

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<v Speaker 1>conversation like that. There's vulnerability to this. And the last

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<v Speaker 1>thing is building the coaching habit into your calendar and

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<v Speaker 1>have it being rooted in curiosity, not in solving problems.

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<v Speaker 1>And so in the next one on one that you

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<v Speaker 1>have with one of your reps, ask three simple questions,

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<v Speaker 1>what is your goal for the week? What's getting in

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<v Speaker 1>the way? What would success look like? Those are six

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<v Speaker 1>things that I just rattled off real quick, Slow down,

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<v Speaker 1>create space, make sure that you continue to stay curious.

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<v Speaker 1>What's your goal for the week, what's getting in the way,

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<v Speaker 1>what does success look like? And then you'll be surprised

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<v Speaker 1>how much your reps already know without you giving them

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<v Speaker 1>the answers, and how much more they'll grow when you

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<v Speaker 1>coach the rep like you coach a deal. Great if

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<v Speaker 1>it was one of your own deals. Yeah, and there's

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<v Speaker 1>so much more on this topic. I know that this

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<v Speaker 1>is a brief conversation that we're having, but it's such

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<v Speaker 1>a powerful conversation. And I think the thing that we

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<v Speaker 1>have to understand and I said this at the very beginning,

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<v Speaker 1>is that and you said it too, This is a

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<v Speaker 1>skill and you can't just assume that everybody knows how

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<v Speaker 1>to coach that when you come out of a command

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<v Speaker 1>of the Message training session, Hey, you're going to go

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<v Speaker 1>coach this starting on Monday. Well, do we know how

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<v Speaker 1>to coach or.

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<v Speaker 3>Do we just tell exactly exactly great way to sum

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<v Speaker 3>it up for us, John, thank.

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<v Speaker 1>You, thank you, I appreciate time as always.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, and try this out. Let us know how it

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<v Speaker 3>works out for you. And thank you for continuing to

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<v Speaker 3>listen to the Audible Ready Sales podcast.

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<v Speaker 4>At Force Management, we're focused on transforming sales organizations into

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<v Speaker 4>elite teams. Are proven methodologies deliver programs that build company

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<v Speaker 4>alignment and fuel repeatable revenue growth. Give your teams the

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<v Speaker 4>ability to execute the growth strategy at the point of sale.

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<v Speaker 4>Our strength is our experience. The proof is in our results.

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<v Speaker 4>Let's get started. Visit us at forcemanagement dot com.

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<v Speaker 2>You've been listening to the Audible Ready podcast. To not

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<v Speaker 2>miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite

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