Speaker 1: We're Tarmin Lorenzo and this is the Pop Style Opinion Fest.
Hello get and welcome back to another edition of the PSO.
I am the teen, you'r Tilo Tom Fitzgerald, and I'm
here with the Low and your til Lorens. My love husband,
are your lovely husband?
Speaker 2: Wonderfully fantastic.
Speaker 1: We have so much to talk about this topic heavy podcast.
We have matters of style to discuss, matters of celebrity
to discuss, and then we're going to talk about two
TV shows. So it is living up to its name,
The Pop Style Opinion Fest. Anything else you want any
happy talking, you want to get out of your system?
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's just beautiful out, sunny, beautiful out.
Speaker 1: All the tourists are here in Philadelphia, and.
Speaker 2: I know you actually took a picture of.
Speaker 1: The line for the Liberty Bill this morning was just insane.
So it's that time of year. And also it's the
two hundred and fiftieth anniversary, but we won't be here
for it anyway. Yeah, we're traveling to Europe, so we
want this.
Speaker 2: It wasn't planned that way, We just happened to.
Speaker 1: It just happened to be. Well, we're going for a wedding.
We're going to Ireland for a wedding and then we're
going to We said we were going to tell people
we're going to Edinburgh. After that we're.
Speaker 2: Going to Scotland. Yeah, so that's buh, very very I'm
so excited. Looks like, oh my god, the most beautiful place.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be so hot though. Yes, all right, so
that's our little happy talk. The cats are fine. Everything's good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything's fine.
Speaker 1: Everything's fine, everything's everything.
Speaker 2: Tab is coming.
Speaker 1: Tab is going to jump up on the table any second,
any second, anyway with a big thump. All right, So
right out the gate, let's talk about matters of fashion,
which is Olivia Rodrigo, the pop singer, is embroiled in
a silly little controversy. It's not really a controversy at all,
but she has brought I guess single hand because I
guarantee this is now going to become a fashion item.
So probably single handedly has brought the baby doll dress
back into style. She last month wore one on stage
to perform her late.
Speaker 2: Well, it's on the cover of the new album, so
it's all part of her branding of the whole package
for the new album. Called you Look Pretty Sad for
a growing love.
Speaker 1: Right, and then the single she wore on stage like
in the video or something drop dead, which.
Speaker 2: Is amazing song I love is it okay?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: Make me laugh? Cor Tom said that in terms of
pop music, I have the dates of a sixteen year
old girl, does I do? But that song is amazing. Anyway,
I think she's very talented.
Speaker 1: To be honest, I think she's very talented, and I
think she's very naive about baby doll dress. So let's
start off with this. So she wore a baby doll dress,
and let's define this baby doll dresses. It is a
specific style of dress which is meant to mimic juvenile dresses,
dresses for little girls. So it's a very short skirt,
like very micro short skirt, like if she raised her arms,
you would see her pante like you. That's usually she's
built in feature of it.
Speaker 2: But she's also wearing bloomers, so it's the whole combo.
Speaker 1: Right, Usually puppy sleeves, and it doesn't have a defined waist.
It's usually like triangle shaped. It's very much what little
girls wear. When you put a little girl in a dress,
it has a specific etymology. It has been called the
baby doll dress because of the film Baby Doll in
nineteen fifty six, which the lead character wore played by
Carol Baker, wore a baby doll dress. And you know,
Baby Doll was about a baby doll. Well, I mean,
I don't know if cless why that is pedophilia, because
I think she was playing a teenager, but it was.
It's something it was about underage sex, and it was
about about infantilizing women and as a form of sexualizing it.
So this is not something that just got imposed on
Olivia Rodrigo. This is a seventy year old term referring
to a specific style of dress that was specifically designed
to evoke childhood and sexuality. So that is a very
very volatile combination. And in nineteen fifty six you could
get away with that. But even then it was a
controversial style. And then in the nineteen sixties that style
of dress actually became popular among adult women, and it
was popularized a lot by the sex kittens of the
nineteen sixties, these screensiren's, big hair, winged eyes, you know,
coquettish sexuality. The Bridgie Bardouz of that era and then
in the nineties it was repurposed again by you know,
riot girl singers like Courtney Love.
Speaker 2: Yes, uh, And it was part.
Speaker 1: Of that whole Kinderhorr movement in the nineties, which in
that instance it was a sort of post feminist punk
take on the baby doll because they weren't sexualizing the dress.
They were removing the sexualization of it, the undertones, and
they were adding all of this sort of violent punk imagery,
messy hair slash, you know, messy makeup, that sort of thing, grungy,
you know, adding grungy items on top of it. In
all in order to take it away from its juvenile
undertones and from its sexual undertones. It was more about
defying those things, defying femininity, defying coquettish, and being more
in your face about it. That is not what Olivia
Rodrigo is doing. She's embracing it completely.
Speaker 2: Go all right. She made a statement, and I think
that's what they her team had in mind to go
with the court Love, because she actually mentioned I'm glad
you mentioned Courton Love, because she actually said that I
wanted to go with sort of like a court and
Love kind of Look, if you watch the video, I
don't know about the cover, can't remember, but the video
she's wearing boots, you know.
Speaker 1: I know she does wear nihil black leather boots with it,
which does go against the baby dolls.
Speaker 2: So it exploded everywhere with all of the social media
TikTok and et cetera. And she she was kind of
shocked that because you know, she's young, she's twenty three three,
she's twenty three. I don't know what the team was thinking.
The thing is that I wish they had an argument
why they chose that dress, you know, because usually like
look look at Taylor Swift for example, when she did
the whole you know Vegas thing, right you show girl,
she went with a showgirl look. So I wish they
had a better explanation why they chose to that look
for this particular album.
Speaker 1: Can I yeah, sure, I just want to I want
to say here, there's no there's no real scandal here.
A young woman is allowed to dress however she wants
to dress, and I don't think she should be criticized
for wearing baby doll dresses if that's what she wants
to wear. However, those dresses are not without implications, and
she is she seemed very ignorant of what the implications
of those dresses are. And that's fine, All of it's fine.
This is not a criticism of her, But it's more
we're unpacking the fact that because she did this thing
where she said, you know, in defense of herself, she
was like, well, if you look at it that way,
I think you're normalizing pedophilia, which is shows a complete
lack of understanding about what that's Also.
Speaker 2: That the whole dress is rooted in female liberation, which
I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's true either. The baby doll dress
was it was a pedophile dream. I mean, that's how
it has evolved. I get it. And she should not
be criticized, right, and no woman actually should be criticized
for wearing those dresses. But they do have implications to them,
and pretending that they don't, right is And she did
this thing where she said, you know where she fell
back on I get it. She fell back on the
whole we're policing what women wear kind of thing. And
and you know that tends to get my back up
because I've been hearing that for twenty years, for as
long as we've been doing what we do because we're
not policing what women wear. We're discussing what fashion does,
what meanings and aesthetics and messages and fashion send out.
And I think.
Speaker 2: There's a crowd out there to do what you just
said we don't do. But again, and she's responding to that,
and I understand that. I'm sure people called her a
whore or whatever. I'm sure they called her a slut.
And she made the point that she she said, as
you know, like for example, I've I've worn more revealing outfits.
It's not about a And I think that's that's that's
when she missed a point. It's not about you what
you wear. It's you choosing a certain item that has
a whole history of a lot of things.
Speaker 1: So again, TikTok generation is so uh. Their antenna are
so up for like pedophile and age gap and all
that I can't even mention the words, Yeah, you can't.
So it's not surprising that this abrupted among fans among
young people. But they aren't wrong to point out like
that is what the implication it is juvenile dresses that
are made to make adult women look sexy.
Speaker 2: Also, we have to point out that someone likely we
were doing her fans are.
Speaker 1: Very young, and she's very young, so I catty.
Speaker 2: Young and you know, anyway, I think she was shocked, honestly,
but you know, I understand that. But at the same time,
you have forty p people around your creating a package
here to promote your album. Uh, and nobody discussed that baby.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, okay, but I think that, like I said,
to wear baby do all dresses on stage, there's no
scan career, but I think there probably should have been
a prepared understand why. That's what it goes to what
you said about, well, why are you wearing for.
Speaker 2: This specific album? Yeah? Why? I mean because usually you
choose a whole package. You know, at least that's most
people do. Sabrina Corbet or Taylor Swift, they all do,
so I don't know. Yeah, So anyway, we're still talking
about it and magazines are writing articles about it.
Speaker 1: They're gonna be on the Runway next season. Yeah, I
mean probably pretty much brought them back. And you know,
we've been doing style commentary for twenty years now and
they they were in style during that period, so it
hasn't been that long since baby doll dresses were last
in style. Probably I don't know, circa two thousand and
eight or so, it's probably been about fifteen.
Speaker 2: As a queer man, queer man, I think it's a
great look.
Speaker 1: I know, I always thought it was a disturbing I did.
It's especially when they really embraced the little girls.
Speaker 2: It depends on how you style it the way she
did the way she did it, I.
Speaker 1: Thought it was confusing. The black boots just kind of
like now. I mean, if you want to wear like
high top sneakers or something, that's fine, but I don't
I didn't think the black boots went all right. Moving
on Billy Eichner, comic Billy Eigner, he God bless him.
I've always been a fan of Billy as a loud
mouth gay man with a lot of opinions. I feel
like very simpatico with him. I also feel that he
like certain gay men in the public eye who have
made their careers on being loud and obnoxious gay men.
And again there's a certain sympathy there, like, Okay, we
we sort of did the same thing, although we're bloggers
not not actors. There's a certain sympathy because I could
I could tell for years that he was struggling against
the image of himself that he had put out in
the world of this screaming, screaming.
Speaker 2: Homosexuallyrand and he didn't like it. He didn't like it.
He actually said that he didn't like that everyone associated
him with the Billy on the Street type of you know,
screaming you know, persona asking questions, blah blah blah. But
you know, I don't know, you know what you got.
Speaker 1: Really, let's let's talk about why we're talking about Billy.
There was a big splashy New York Times article this week,
of course, of course, for his new memoir, And I
could not roll my eyes at this hard enough because
first off, it's Billy on Billy is the name of
the Let me just say I do like Billy. He's
carved out and knits for himself that he seems intent
on destroying. But I also think in recent years his
sense of self is very inflated, like you're just not
that big a deal, Billy Eichner, You're not that big
a comedian, You're not that big a celebrity, and like
Billy on Billy, Like, okay, well, are there a lot
of people that were asking for that? I know this
sounds meaner than I wanted. At least Madonna, I mean
Barbara and Barbara, that makes sense, Liza, Unliza, but come on,
And it's also I'm being really mean here. But it's
an audio only memoir. Yes, it's a sad podcast, which
which to me was like what he didn't write it.
Speaker 2: His explanation was that because he's always creamy and people
assist with Billy on the street, he wanted to have
a soft because he talks about his mother, who story
I know, and his mother his father they both passed.
Speaker 1: But ostensibly the point of the book, like he adds
all the mom and dad stuff in there, But the point,
the central point of the book, and the point of
the piece in the in the New York Times, was
that he how painful it was that his movie flopped, right,
Christ So we talked about Bros. When it first came out,
and we did a podcast about it. I should have
gone back to listen to it. And I don't think
we trashed the film.
Speaker 2: No, we didn't.
Speaker 1: It was a it was you know, it was okay,
but we kind of trashed him for how he was
acting during that period.
Speaker 2: But the thing is that I don't know what he
was Wait, I mean expecting look at this movie now
with Jennifer Lopez office roommate. I mean, we're gonna forget
about this movie five minutes. My point is that people
do shit and they don't become huge successful.
Speaker 1: He so Bros. Was a gay romantic comedy, and from
the jump he couldn't just let this be like, here's
my gay romantic comedy. It became this big like issue
where we all needed to support this because and straight
people needed to support this. And I remember he made
such a big deal out of the fact that literally
not every single member of the cast was some form
of queer and I was like, well, why, that's that's
just goofy gimmickry. That's just if you don't need to
make sure there are no straight people on your set
when you make a gay film, that sort of gimmicky
short of nonsense. That's that actually put a pall over
the film before it even came out. I remember he
was on I think the VMA's or something one of
the MTV shows. It might have been the Movie Awards,
and he did this big riff about America needs to
come out like he did into his microphone America needs
to come out and support gay blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: I think we came a long way when it comes
to queer entertainment TV shows, but we're not there yet.
I mean, look, even Heated Rivalry is a huge success
right now, but it's not like across the board. I mean,
it's not for everybody.
Speaker 1: No, but it is the kind of success that he
wanted for pros.
Speaker 2: But well they're both young, and yeah, that's a whole
different story. But anyway, my point is that we're not
there yet. I have watched so many great things that
you know, it's not for everybody. It doesn't interest everybody
because we're still very much you know, white straight society.
Speaker 1: Not only that. I mean, and I remember saying this
at the time with Bros. Bros was every bit a
classic rom com in style, all the in the character types,
in the plot points. And I don't like rom coms,
and I would wager that a significant portion of gay
men are just not into Heated Rivalry. Well, I said
this before he did. Rivalry wasn't for gay man. It
was the straight win. That's why it's so But gay
men generally, and I know there is a gay romance
its fandom, and a significant portion of those are gay men.
But generally, as a group, I don't think we're especially
when you get into like elder millennials and above. We
were not socialized to embrace that sort of thing. So
the whole point of that movie, I was like, all right,
I'll watch it, but I'm not into these kinds of stories.
Speaker 2: Right, and yeah, I can only speak for experience. I mean,
when we talk about rum coms in general, iro at
that this is not for me. There's not for me.
And I remember having conversation with my queer friends and
even queer rum they were just like, oh what now.
Speaker 1: The only one I ever liked was Fire Island. Yeah, right,
and again Billy. Both of those films came out in
the same year, and Billy kind of accidentally or he
made some rather dismissive commentary about it. She didn't go well,
which didn't got I mean, the whole everything about how
he handled that film. He was expecting too much, the
thing is, and then he had a public Milton when
you know, he blamed straight people for a right for
some reason, he thought that you know, straight people owe
that to him, you know, like that they would have
to like, support this movie because whatever, it doesn't work
that way, it doesn't it doesn't work. I mean, you know,
I've you look at someone like Ben Wishaw, for example,
amazing actor.
Speaker 2: He pretty much plays a gay character in everything.
Speaker 1: Because he can't. I mean, he has it'd be very
hard to cast that guy as a straight man, right, And.
Speaker 2: He talks about that. But he's so talented and look,
you know, I mean, I mean, he finds interesting roles,
but he's not like, you know, very very famous, you know,
like that everybody is running to see his movies or
TV shows. That's what that's my point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I just wanted to bring it up because
I do feel bad for him. He really can't let
this go, and I think he's destroying his brand. To
be perfectly honest, like, if your whole thing is I
want to be soft spoken Billy, well okay, good luck
with that, but that that's not what people want from you.
I mean, I understand if you don't want to be
screaming at total strangers on the street for the rest
of your career, I get it. But this complete one
eighty into I'm going to write a memoir about my
mother and my feelings like, all right, well, I don't
really think this is what people want from you, much
like Bros Was not what people wanted from you.
Speaker 2: I understand wanting to expand your career and do other things,
but sometimes it doesn't work and you just have to
face it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, we've rambled a bit too long here.
Let's go for a break and then we'll come back
and talk about one more bit of celebrity gossip before
we jump into the TV stuff. We'll be right back.
We're back in our final final bit of celebrity gossip
before we launch into our TV talk. Is actually about
a TV show mob Land, starring Pierce President and Helen
Mirren and maybe Tom Hardy for the next season. Who knows.
It came out this week. I'm going to toss to
Lorenzo on this because he actually want you watched the
full season, right, I watched both seasons. All right, let
me just do the setup and then I'm tossing to
you for all the details. So it came out this
week that Tom Hardy was being fired from the show
where he wasn't coming back for the second season, and
then there was a flurry of reports that he and
Helen Mirren had clash and that some of the classes
were about Palestine, which I didn't think was really likely.
It just sounded like a lot of publicists were trying
to get their version of the story out, and ultimately
I think Miron made a statement and the producers made
a statement, and it doesn't look like he's fired, but
it sure sounds like that is one messy as hell set.
All right, you fill all the rest in well, it just.
Speaker 2: I've got to figure out what magazine on what site
came out with an art of saying that, you know,
Tom Hardy was fired from Moblin. That's how the whole
thing started, right, And then everyone was like what wow,
And then all these stories came out and well, apparently,
and that part is true. I believe allegedly he was
always late, but he's famous for that, and Helen Mirren specifically,
not so much Pierce Prosen, but Halen mireor specific was
complaining about it that you know that they wait for
hours for him to come out and do the scene,
so apparently he he was late. He was getting to
fights with the show's creator and producer, presenting like script
notes at the last minute, and you know, fighting for
them at the last minute, that kind of stuff, so
causing a lot of trouble on set. And you guys
might have read in the past that Charlie then had
kind of the same complaints about him on The Man Max.
Apparently she was a very stressful set. They were on
the it was very hot desert, and apparently the director
was kind of an asshole too, That's that's what I read.
And things were very tense, and he was always late,
he wouldn't take forever to come out of trailer, and
so she complained about him, and she Yeah, there's like
a book. There's a whole book written.
Speaker 1: About Buchanan, who is a mutual on social media and
writes for The New York Times. He wrote a book, Blood,
Sweat and Crown, The Wild and True Story of Mad
Max Fierry wrote.
Speaker 2: A couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: The set was brutal, and it was a legendarily a
contentious set, and it made it sound like it was
mostly him. I mean, I don't think Charlie's has a
reputation for being difficult, but Tom Hardy absolutely does.
Speaker 2: And the thing is that Charlie theren is she is tough.
She's a tough woman.
Speaker 1: She was scared, but she says that's my point.
Speaker 2: I mean, if she complained about it and said she
was kind of like worried and it's you know, scared,
I mean that something happened. I mean, but apparently he
was in character being an asshole the whole time and
even want to come out of histrailia blah blah blah
blah blah. So anyway, so the same thing apparently was
happening again with Moblin. And the thing is that these
three actors are a main.
Speaker 1: Character, central character.
Speaker 2: So take Tom Hardy. How are you gonna explain that? Right?
Speaker 1: I guess I could kill him off?
Speaker 2: Why now? But even so then you don't have a
show anymore certain way anyway, So I think that's why
he's not getting fired because they can't. They can't fire
him because otherwise they don't have a show. They don't
have a third season. That's my take.
Speaker 1: There's not gonna be They're gonna have one really right,
gritted teeth season. Now obvious that everybody in the cast
hates each other, and then they're not coming back. That's
what's probably gonna happen.
Speaker 2: The thing is that I think Helen Muhraan wasn't liking.
She didn't like the whole narrative about her, you know,
because then on social media and TikTok specifically, they were
talking about, well, she's pro Israel and he's propoust to
and that's why, you know, she probably told them to fight.
Speaker 1: I don't think so.
Speaker 2: I don't think that any of that happened. Yeah, I know,
and I think she didn't like that. That's why she
posted something on Instagram about him, saying, you know, like,
I don't know, I love you, but.
Speaker 1: Some some but it sounded like he was difficult on seting.
Speaker 2: I think he was just difficult, and you know, and
that's something I never understood. I read stories about that,
and I'm like, all right, you very famous, but come on,
that's not professional.
Speaker 1: You know, like that the whole not coming out of
your trailer thing.
Speaker 2: I now, wow, you I still still do that. I know.
I don't think that kind of depth my point. I
don't think that kind of behavior should be accepted.
Speaker 1: I don't think it is as accepted as it once was.
So that's why this is coming out. But that whole
you know, abusing the crew, make wasting hours a time,
you know, the industry is not flush with cash at
the moment, so we can't put up with that sort
of ship. You can't put up with stars, you know,
wasting hamp a day or whatever.
Speaker 2: You lose the light, you lose something.
Speaker 1: You're paying union wages to everyone to stand around.
Speaker 2: So I think I was.
Speaker 1: Actually a little surprised to hear those whole Oh he
spent hours in his trailer.
Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, they still do that. Huh they do,
And I think that's why he hasn't been fired, because
they need it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I always thought he was an asshole. Yeah,
I always thought he was an asshole.
Speaker 2: I know, I don't know. He's so great in the show.
Speaker 1: I think he's a great actor, but a person, I'm like,
I can just tell that's not someone you'd want to work.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean he looks and sounds difficult.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he sounds difficult. All right, let's just lead into
the next and we'll start talking about Hacks.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Yes, Well, we.
Speaker 1: Have two shows to talk about this week, one of
which we're saying goodbye to and the other one we're
saying hello too. So we're going to talk about Hacks,
which had its finale series finale last night, and we're
just gonna talk about the entire series and the final season,
and then after that, we're going to talk about Widow's
Bay on Apple TV, which is our new favorite show
and you absolutely need to watch it, and we're going
to talk about that after Hacks, and the beginning of
that convo will be spoiler free, but the end of
that conversation, which we will give you warnings, we're going
to get into spoilers because I know some of you
have already watched it and we need to talk about
some of these episodes.
Speaker 2: All right, So Hacks Hecks, I have to start by
saying that I'm glad it's gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. I love that show. But and
we checked in on it early in this season for
our podcast, but we said we weren't going to be
doing like recaps of it, and I'm I'm happy with that.
I went. I had to sort of binge to get
through the rest of the season in time to watch
the because I really let it fall off my viewing schedule.
So I watched like six episodes in a row. I
got like a shot of it. And it wasn't a
bad season of television at all. It had some real highlights.
It was actually, I think better than the poor season
which almost ruined the show.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker 1: So they got back into their vibe, they got back
into their groove, and then it became okay, let's wrap
this up. Like there was just a bunch of episodes
where I was like, well, why are we still here?
What are we doing? Like, what's going on here?
Speaker 2: Why do we have to write lines for these people?
Sort of? I mean, like the daughter never came back?
Why not?
Speaker 1: You know, she has her own show. She has two shows.
Speaker 2: Actually know it is like, you know, that's she's so.
Speaker 1: Funny too, and they're so funny together, I know, but
she actually has two other shows. She's got It's always sunny,
and she has that other like it's like a procedural
on ABC or whatever.
Speaker 2: But she was hysteric with with her body.
Speaker 1: Yeah mma husband, And then the the Amazing Rays episode
was really funny. But I don't I don't have a
lot of critiques of the season. I just felt like,
it's we need to wrap it up. It's time this
we're just sort of spinning our wheels on a lot
of this stuff. So let's talk about some of the
arcs of the season. I one of the things I
had a problem with the show since the previous season,
and we talked about it last year, was that some
of the plotting on this show, it's very lazy, and
they don't it doesn't actually make a lot of sense
if you know anything about the world. So, for instance,
last season, the entire season was based on an idea
of late night television that simply it does not reflect
reality at all. Like, first off, no one's getting new shows. Secondly,
no women are getting shows, and third no one in
their seventies is getting a show. So she gets this
show and I'm like, all right, you're already this doesn't
reflect anything about the current world. And prior to that happening,
the first three seasons of Hacks, it felt like we
were looking at real people in the real world, and
now it's like, okay, you're going off into fantasy. And
it was the same thing with this season, which with
the whole Madison Square Garden thing, I did not like
that idea at all. As soon as it was announced,
I was like, Oh, the whole fucking season is going
to be about this show, about preparing for this show,
And I even thought the whole I'm like, preparing for
this show that is not going to happen.
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 1: I never thought that show was going to happen. So
it felt like a lot of wheel spinning, like it was.
It was nine episodes of preparing for this and it
was a thing, and it was done in such a
way like I'm pretty sure you can't trick someone into
giving you a date for and I don't think you
can trick people into buying tickets. And then later like
the penultimate episode, I don't really think you can get
thirty thousand people to show up in Central Portagram three
days notice with no planning.
Speaker 2: Right, the whole license to get a license thing, She like, Oh,
I'm taking my break now, I'm not going to listen
to my favorite book cast. Oh that happens to be produced.
Speaker 1: I rolled my eyes at that so hard. That's the
thing about lazy, crazy writing.
Speaker 2: That's what I don't like about these writers, the writers
for the show, is that they they want to make
certain points, they want to make about certain things in.
Speaker 1: So they just sort of rush past. So they just
sprinkle them all over and they rush past explaining anything.
So and yes, that scene with oh my god, you
produced my favorite podcast and what Okay, you get a light,
you get yeah, you get a permit?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, permit.
Speaker 1: All of that is just and there's so much of
that where it just doesn't describe a real world. It
doesn't describe people who act in real ways, it doesn't
describe the entertainment industry. None of this is realistic.
Speaker 2: I watched the show. I have watched the show because
of those two main amazing women, Jeane Smart and Hannah
ein Bend. I think they are phenomenal and those two
characters were great. It was about two different women having
to go through a lot of stuff together. Yeah, kind
of they beginning to being forced be together and kind
of developed developing a relationship. I think it's awesome. In fact,
the episode the lesbian I call it the episode they
make a point about that, well, you too are in
a relationship.
Speaker 1: They are in a relationship. I had heard about that
episode before I actually saw it, and some of the
headlines made it sound like they actually were a couple,
and I was like, oh God, no, that's not worth
that's not They didn't do that today, And I would
not have been furious if they had made those two
a couple. At the end of the Actually, I would
have found it dumb. I'm not opposed to queer storylines
or people discovering their queerness late in life. It happens, but.
Speaker 2: There's nothing wrong. It was too easy.
Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with depicting an unusual friendship, unusual and
a deep friendship between two people, and you don't have
to make it sexual or romantic. In fact, I think
sometimes we don't have enough depictions of that in the culture.
Deep deep, deep friendships and you know, cross generational friendships.
You never see that sort of.
Speaker 2: Thing, especially you know, among women, because yeah, because most
shows about women are there they're fighting, right.
Speaker 1: Well, there was quite a bit of that, and I
didn't mind that, but I that's my main critique. Well
we'll get into uh, the finale and all that, but
my main critique is that the show creates scenarios that
are so far removed from reality that it just kind
of annoys me. And I'm like, why couldn't you have
filled in some more details a little bit better?
Speaker 2: I mean, And it's just the things that they do,
like the whole thing with a company with well yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, God, I don't hate Jimmy and Kala the way
you do, Yes, I do. I don't hate them the
way you do. I feel that there's a place for
them in the story. Okay, go ahead. But these last
few episodes were everything that was going on with them
was happening separate from from the main story, and I
really I didn't care. And again, it was insanely unrealistic.
The idea that he would be first off, the idea
that he would even wind up in the mail room.
I didn't find that believable at all. He is well connected,
he does you know, he would not have put up
with that, and you know, no, I just didn't agree
with that at all. And then his whole oh well,
I found some things and I opened some envelopes, and
now you have to give me control of the company. Okay, fine,
fuck you. You control the company.
Speaker 2: What I know? I know everything. The mother is happy
now with a partner, you know, and you know, Marty
comes back.
Speaker 1: It's just like and I actually wish they had gotten together.
Speaker 2: But my point is, everything is like, okay, we have
to take care of all the characters.
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, yeah, all right, let's take a short break
and then we'll get into the finale and all that.
All right, we'll be right back. We're back, and we're
gonna I do. I feel bad because so much of
my commentary today about Hacks is negative. I did not
like the finale. I didn't hate the finale, but I
didn't love it.
Speaker 2: I thought it was a cheap shot as a mission
to you. When you bring in y.
Speaker 1: As literally the last episode and assisted suicide literally the
last episode, I'm like, this is not what this show
was about. This is not what the vibe of the
show was about, and it doesn't seem like it's lovely.
In many ways, the scenes in Paris were actually lovely.
Those two actresses are insanely good together, so it was
somewhat enjoyable in that sense. But I kept thinking, like,
this is so weird that they decided to end it
this way, and I knew they weren't going to end
with her dying, so again, it was more it was
sort of like the same thing with the Madison Square Garden,
where it's like, well, I know that's not going to happen,
so we're just gonna waste a lot of time until
we get to why it's not happening, And that's exactly
how it played out. It's it was sweet don't get
me wrong, I'm not that cold hearted. It was very sweet.
It was very emotional having Barbara and Judy saying happy
days are here again at the end of it was genius.
Needle Drop could not have summed up the entire point
of that show better than with that one song, because
it's an old veteran and a young you know, young
upstart and they're harmonizing together. So it was such a
beautiful choice ended on a lovely note. But I just
really hated the whole I'm going to Switzerland to die.
Speaker 2: What that's how you're doing this yet? Yeah? That that
made no sense to me. And I think, like I said,
it's just an easy way to you know, and add
some emotions. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like this is the
problem with shows like The East, that you have creators
like that and then they they're also characters.
Speaker 1: In Down You, he's your enemy.
Speaker 2: I can't stand it. Well, the fact that he's naked
in one of the scenes. This is a queer thing, right,
There no need for him to be naked, but he
has a great body. I'm the creator, so I'm gonna
be naked, right so people can talk about that kind
of stuff drives me crazy like her his friend. I mean,
that's how he found Megan Stelter. He found her, loved her,
and I was like, all right, you're gonna be a character.
I hate that kind of approach because you're forcing things
into it. The only thing that I find interesting and
deep and amazing is those two women aside from them,
and I know, and I know, you can't have a
show with just two people.
Speaker 1: No, I agree, but they are the show and anytime
it gets away from them, there are I don't hate
any of the characters, but I do feel like I
don't even hate Kayla. I just feel like most of
the other characters they never knew what to do with.
I've always talked about Marcus, that guy. They never hated
the guy, but I was like, what is the point
of this character? He's just morose In every scene, he
always seems annoyed, and he never goes anywhere. Christopher McDonald
is Marty like, what do you you?
Speaker 2: Never?
Speaker 1: They have insane fucking chemistry together. There should have been
a whole on again, off again romance with those characters,
but they seemed like completely against it for some reason.
Speaker 2: The lesbian I call it the lesbians.
Speaker 1: One and one more thing. The blackjack dealer, Oh right,
fucking hilarious, and she's on We get to see her
for maybe three minutes a season. This is what I mean.
You never knew what to do and not to be mean.
But they spent too much time on the housekeeper and
the assistant. Yes, they're not that funny.
Speaker 2: They weren't that interesting. Nothing nothing to the other assistant.
He's I mean, the actor's kind of funny. But those
characters never ever went anywhere. I totally agree that that
has always been the problem with the show, is that
you had two amazing central characters and then you had
all these colorful side characters that you didn't want to develop,
so they just sort of they they're not really people,
they're just there. And yeah, I agree. More Kiki more
was that her name.
Speaker 1: Was hilarious, and she they almost never used her hilarious.
I do want to end on a nice note. I
do think, as much as I found it completely unrealistic,
the Central Park ending was I wish the season had
ended there there. It was triumphant, it was beautiful. I
don't think it made a ton of sense, but it
was mostly earned, like, okay, fine, but we're on a
show with.
Speaker 2: A ton of things that don't make sense. That would
have been a nice one.
Speaker 1: That would have been a nice one, And I just
I really wish it had ended on that. It would
have been such a perfect capper to this series, but
instead it turned into this please don't die thing at
the end.
Speaker 2: I think when it's about them, like the episode where
they would Leslie uh Bess as a guest actress appearance guests,
she she was hill. She was so funny. The whole
thing about them pretending to be a couple. It was
freaking hilarious.
Speaker 1: That was the best episode of the season because it
was funny. And that is the other thing about this
show is that for a show about two comedians, it
wasn't as funny as it should have been. And that's
a big complaint is in five seasons of the show,
we almost never saw one of Devors sets like someone
needed to write a killer set, a killer stand up set,
and we should have seen her deliver at least one
killer stand All we heard about was what a legend
she was, but we never got to see it, and
in fact, we had multiple scenes of her over the
series bombing terribly, So you kind of worked against your purposes.
You should have gotten some comics to write a killer
type five and have her deliver it just so the
audience could see it.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker 1: I do love the show.
Speaker 2: Though I liked the idea of the show. I enjoyed
the show for the most part. But every time, as
you said, it felt like a different show when he
when it switched to the other characters. So it's like,
all right, like we're taking a break here and we're
watching something else.
Speaker 1: Jimmy, We're like a total sitcom. God, it just happening
completely apart from everybody else.
Speaker 2: So annoying because their lines were so like, oh my god,
not real, you know, like I just want to make
a pointee about something, so I'm giving you a line.
It was just it didn't felt it didn't feel like
organic at always.
Speaker 1: Now, Well that's that's a good way of putting it.
It's so much of us just does not feel organic. Yeah,
it all felt very contrived.
Speaker 2: Yes, I want to make a pointee about the industry,
about I don't know how offices work and how pitching
a show that's how it works. So I'm going to
create this scene here and you know, if you if
you understand the industry, like we're kind of doing a way.
I mean, then you find that kind of funny and
interesting and you see why they're doing it. But at
the same time, I'm like why it makes no sense?
Speaker 1: Right, But listen, I salute those two ladies. Yes, I
think they're both up for Emmys again. And as much
as I think sometimes the Emmys get into a rut
and reward the same show, I would not be upset
if Jean Smart one another Emmy because I think she
really killed me. I think she's won three or four
every single season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, it.
Speaker 1: Was lovely, but it was an imperfect show, and like
a lot of shows in the modern era, it probably
could have ended after three seasons.
Speaker 2: I agree. It started very strong and then he got
lost and then he kind of like sort of like
you know, got better, sort of better. And then I
actually when I started watching this season, I watched like
three episodes and I stoppedcause like, I can't take this anymore.
And then I finished it, and I have to say
I was kind of like annoyed that I had to
watch it, but I actually enjoyed a lot of it.
A lot of it. I thought Paris was awesome, because
of course it's Paris and they're great. Yeah, a lot
of things were great. And I actually got very emotion
during the scene in Central Park, you know, like the
whole thing when they're when she thanking everyone for that moment.
Blah blah blah. I mean stuff like that. It's interesting,
I agree, and it goes with a character, goes with
a character's history. But everything else is just like, all right,
you're just giving lines to your friends. Agreed.
Speaker 1: Do you want to take another break and we'll come
back and talk about Widow's Bay or do you want
to go right into it.
Speaker 2: Sure, let's take a break.
Speaker 1: All right, we're back and having said goodbye to Hacks,
we need to say hello to Widow's Bay.
Speaker 2: Oh god, yes.
Speaker 1: On Apple TV Plus. You know I was hearing buzz
about this show about a month before it dropped. We
I don't even ask for screeners anymore. I just figured
I'll talk about this show after it airs. It's not
worth it trying to get screeners.
Speaker 2: No, because the thing is that there are so many
shows coming out all the time that it's hard to
keep up with him. I have to say someone I
can't remember one of our readers on Instagram maybe recommended
the show, So I want to thank you because I
was like, oh, maybe I should give it a shot. Yeah,
and I and I watched it and I loved it,
absolutely loved it.
Speaker 1: I had heard about it and and some critics were like,
this is the best new show of the year, and
I was like, all right, And I did watch the
first episode the week it came out, and I wasn't.
It didn't grab me, mainly because the first episode is
really a wash in the sort of shit's Creak twin
Peaks vibe of like a year in a small town
and everyone's very colorful and weird and dysfunctional and it
I just didn't appeal to me in that first episode.
It just did not appeal to me because he is
so let's talk about this.
Speaker 2: Widow's Bay is.
Speaker 1: A comic horror series.
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 1: Set on a on an island in the Wing, England
that has a host of curses upon it and everything
like that. But it is a comic series and the
central character is the mayor played by Matthew Reese, and
it's all about his like his foibles and and and
Shenanigan says he tries to run this town and he
tries to get tourists to come to the turn it
into His whole goal is to turn it into the
next Martha's Vineyard, and he is thwarted by these locals
who are all, you know, very colorful, very strange, and
and and if if that was the only thing the
show was, I would have tapped out after one episode.
But I have to say and there's a part of
me that's almost reluctant to say this, because when someone
says this to me, I almost always tap out, Which
is it gets so much better after you if you
stick with it.
Speaker 2: It does. It does.
Speaker 1: But this is a thing that people always say in
the streaming era, and what it usually means is you
have to sit through six hours before there's some sort
of payoff, And I'm telling you now that's not the case.
Speaker 2: Right or you force yourself into liking something which is
not the case. I love it from the beginning because
I watched so many this Cannaving shows about you know,
like dark islands and small towns and you know, people
in mar so I was. I loved it right from
the air. And Matthew, my god, Matthew Rees is just incredible.
Speaker 1: It's a hell of a comedic performance. I did not
know he had it into him to be that much
of a clown expression. Yeah, I mean he's he's really giving,
like Don Knuts in a horror film kind of thing.
Just I didn't know he was like that. I didn't
know he could be like that on camera. I think
I tend to see him as someone who's a little
more serious all the time. It also stars Stephen Root,
who is killing it.
Speaker 2: And then it's.
Speaker 1: Got like these great character actresses like Dale Dicky and
Kay Callen and Katie o Flynn who plays Patricia.
Speaker 2: She's just funny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's really really funny. Oh and Jeff Hiller, but
he only has a small part. Jeff Hiller who won
the Emmy last year for what is it Somebody Somewhere?
Speaker 2: So oh yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 1: So you know, there's like hauntings, and there's curses, and
there's witches and there's all this other stuff and I
have to say when it wants oh, and there's killer clowns.
That's the thing. It's sort of it pays homage to
so many things. One of the heaviest, heaviest influences on it,
and they're not shy about it. Is Jaws. You there's
all these allusions to Jaws, like the Mayor and and
you know, opening up the beaches and there's a scene
on a boat in the latest episode very much evokes Jaws.
But when it wants to be scary, it is legitimately scary.
The killer clown scene, I actually had a pause it.
I was like, Okay, this is a little too intense,
but I will say, if you're not into horror, it's
not it's not going to give you nightmares, and it's
not gory. It's not that kind of horror.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm here to tell you that because I can't
stand it's not any of that.
Speaker 1: And if you don't even have jump scaries, it's more
like high high tension. And it plays on what you
know about the stories that they're showing you because there's
so many illusions. Like I said, there's a killer clown,
they they dig up someone who's not dead, that sort
of thing.
Speaker 2: The whole hotel thing, very you know, like all that
kind of pale.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into too right.
Speaker 2: But pay much to all these great movies.
Speaker 1: It's just clever and funny. And by the fourth episode
I was hooked and Like I said, I was mildly
interested up to that. I really didn't like the first
second and third I kind of okay, that's interesting, and
then fourth episode I was like, oh, okay, this is
creative as hell.
Speaker 2: It is extremely creative. The writing is genius.
Speaker 1: It's just so smart, yes, and well reserved. I don't
know if it's going to be if they're going to
wrap it up brilliantly. I do think the last two
episodes are showing an intelligence and maturity in the writing
that I wasn't quite getting in the first couple of episodes.
I do want to get into spoilery stuff, so I
think from here on out, you know, right, I just
want to mention to create the creatible.
Speaker 2: Yes, she is really really good. The lines are hysterical,
delivered in such a brilliant way by Matthew specifically yea, yeah, yeah, God,
it's just funny, funny, funny, funny.
Speaker 1: Funny, and then when it wants to be scary, it's
it's legitimately scary. But from this point on are going
to start doing a few spoilers. I mean, there weren't
that many twists and turns, and you know, but whatever,
if you if you haven't seen the show yet. Take
care of yourself, love you mean it, Bye bye, and
the rest of us are going to keep talking. Okay,
So Patricia's Sunset Cocktails party was when the show went
completely like, oh no, this is actually really really smart
filmmaking and smart writing because it was hilarious. It was
really really funny, and then it took a sharp turn
and you were like, oh no, this is horrifying. This
is kind of scary. Like when you saw all the
faces in the mirror, you know what I'm.
Speaker 2: Talking about, looking at me kind of I'm just looking
at you because you love me, Yes, I love me
so much, and.
Speaker 1: The antlers on her head and everything. I just just
really really well done.
Speaker 2: The hotel scene was incredible, like the whole conversation. Yes,
and then he goes into basement. I mean that was scary.
Speaker 1: It was scary, is That's what I mean? That was
the one I had a pause. I was like, all right,
that's a little that's a little freaky. When the first
time he went down in the basement and he saw
the crawl space that he was supposed to go into,
and he was like, not a chance. And I was like,
I love when people in horror stories act like people
I know, I know, and that is one of the
great things about him in this is that he acts
like a real person in this story. Uh, what else
did I want to talk about? I want to talk
about Betty Gilpin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well we need to explain why.
Speaker 1: And well, if you're listening, you've probably seen because it's
a fantastic explanation of the whole curse, the whole thing
going on on the Acay. So Betty Gelpin comes in
in the latest episode and the entire or actually not
the latest the but the penultimate latest episode, and they
do a total shift and they go back a flashback
to seventeen oh two and she arrives in this village
and she's betrothed to the basically the sheriff or mayor
of the village is played by Hamish Link later it's Derek,
and they're both so good. The thing about Betty Gilben
is you can hand her a character like that who
doesn't have a lot of background to her, doesn't have
a lot of story to her, and it's a one off.
I'm pretty sure we're not going to see that character again. No,
I don't, And yet she imbus that character was so
alive and there was so much going on with her
in that forty minutes that she was on screen. Because
that's what you do. If you have a character like that,
you handed to an actress like Betty Gilben because she's
going to make that character come alive and become indelible.
She is like one of the most memorable characters on
the show right and she probably won't come back.
Speaker 2: She is phenomenal. I'll watch anything, yeah, anything with Betty.
She is just incredible. And I read an interview with
her and she joked, she said, you know, I'd love
over the top acting in a bonnet. Yea, she said,
give me that now you know. You know I'm a
sucker for that. So anyway, she she loves that kind
of you know, over the top acting, and she does
such a great job.
Speaker 1: And I want to a note that, like, for instance,
on her episode, which was directed by Ty West, the
horror filmmaker, the cinematography on that episode was stunning, all
that candle light and everything, all the nighttime scenes just
absolutely stunning. And apparently they shot it at a a
in a cabin that was owned by a condemned witch
or something.
Speaker 2: Her name is Rebecca Nurse House.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know Rebca Nurse.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, she was. She went through the whole Salem trial. Yeah,
she was accused of witchcraft. Yeah, back in sixteen ninety something. Anyway,
So yeah, they shot in her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because Hamton later said it was like he didn't
even realize it was on his bucket list to be
buried in the grounds of a witch's house and dug
up and you know.
Speaker 2: Barently they shot the whole thing and les separate. Yeah, yes,
left that for the last part, and so the whole
set was like kind of empty, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was just a yeah, it was fascinating. And then
then they the episode after that is set in the
present day. But ha much Link later has to continue
playing this character.
Speaker 2: Uh huh.
Speaker 1: And what I found out later was that those, as
you said, they were shot in reverse. He played the
old version of the character first. In fact, he didn't
even know I believe he didn't even know who was
going to play his wife, like Betty Gilpin hadn't even
been cast, right, And then they had to go back
and shoot, and he said that he actually modulated his
voice so that it sounded like a younger version of
the but It's just so strange to me that those
were shot out of sequence because.
Speaker 2: That episode was so fucking funny, the whole part on
the boat.
Speaker 1: The part on the boat. Yes, although I wanted to
kill Matthew Reese because come on, how big of an
idiot are you?
Speaker 2: Well, he is an idiot.
Speaker 1: He is an idiot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that was so funny when he's like.
Speaker 1: Everything about that scene was really really funny. And I
actually thought Stephen Or was going to die that episode too.
I really thought he was going to die. I still
think he's going to die because he gave an episode,
he gave an interview and they talked about a second season,
and he gave answers that I was like, sounds like
you don't make it out alive through this season. He's
great in it, And no, what is not great in it?
Speaker 2: Was that the last episode?
Speaker 1: No, the last of the season. Yeah, no, no, I
think there's three more or two more, I can't remember,
but we're here to tell you to watch it. Yeah,
it's really really good. It's it's smart.
Speaker 2: It's smart.
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean we we really like smart stuff.
Speaker 2: I do witty, Yeah, that be intellectual, but but well
observed to be intelligent, right right, right, that's it's me.
Even when it's supposed to be a silly humor, it
has to be delivered in a witty, intelligent way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, just to bring this back to our
previous conversation, as much as I love Hacks, the last
several seasons of the show, I just don't think it
was smart. I don't think it was very smart writing.
It was it all rested on those two actresses, who
are amazing.
Speaker 2: But with.
Speaker 1: Widow's Bay as good as Matthew Reesays, as good as
Stephen Rude is, it doesn't all rest on those actors.
The writing is actually smart, well.
Speaker 2: Observed, awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I cannot find a single, you know, weak point or
there's never a point where I'm taken out of the story.
And like what, I hate the Sun, I hate the teenagers.
I can't stand him, but I mean he does.
Speaker 2: He's supposed to be annoying.
Speaker 1: He's supposed to be annoying, and he does have reason to
be mad at his dad. But that's Psycho girl. Who
was going does I kept waiting for, like what is
she some sort of I know, curse or something because
she was acting so strange.
Speaker 2: I know, I was so mad at her, But I
love the secretary at the office, the old lady.
Speaker 1: The old lady. Yeah, I can't read her own hand.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's just a lot of colorful characters. And then it's
in the middle of a Stephen King novel. Basically, that's
highly recommend highly recommend it. Yes, so Widow's Bay on
Apple TV can't recommend it enough. And I believe we
have exhausted our topics for the way, so we'll be
back next week. We do have a new set of movies,
movies for the Bitter Movie Club. We're taking this week off,
but we have a whole set of movies for June.
The first one we'll be doing next week is Atonement
from two thousand and seven starring Kieran Nightly, So go
ahead and watch that. I believe it's on both Netflix
and HBO Max.
Speaker 2: Great movie.
Speaker 1: You should be able to catch it if you if
you are so inclined, And we'll be back with whatever
else you know across our eyes across our desk next week.
Till then, take care of yourself, love you mean it.
Speaker 2: Bye bye bye.