WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:05.559 It's Night Side with Dan Ray WBZ Constance Radio. 2 00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:12.080 Well, we have been trying this fall to get some 3 00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:16.920 conversation going on all of the ballot questions here in Massachusetts, 4 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:19.280 and there are five of them. We'd We talked last 5 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:23.879 night with the state auditor here in Massachusetts, Diana Desauglio, 6 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:28.320 who wants the specific authority and ballot question one to 7 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:32.280 audit the state legislature. We've talked about the potential elimination 8 00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:36.880 of mcast as a high high school graduation requirement. We 9 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:40.880 have yet to talk about the unionization for transportation network drivers, 10 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:45.960 and we have talked about minimum wage for tipped workers. 11 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:48.280 We may get back to that, but tonight, for the 12 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.119 first time, we're going to talk about what's called the 13 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:56.840 limited legalization and regulation of certain natural psychedelic substances with us. 14 00:00:56.920 --> 00:01:00.200 We are honored to be joined by doctor Nasir me. 15 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:04.519 He's a professor of psychiatry at the Toughts Medical School 16 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.519 and he knows a lot more about this than I do. 17 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:11.480 We will have someone on from the other side. I 18 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:17.560 believe the the the advocates for this situation, but we're 19 00:01:17.560 --> 00:01:21.519 gonna We're gonna focus on with doctor Gami, why he 20 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:25.280 feels this is not something that should be approved in Massachusetts. 21 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.599 And so, first of all, doctor Gami, welcome tonight'side. Thank 22 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:29.719 you so much for joining us. 23 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:32.920 Hi Dan, thank you for having me. 24 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:38.640 So, how give us a little bit of your background. 25 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:43.040 You have a very impressive resume, both you know as 26 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:47.400 a as a psychiatrist and also as an author. You 27 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:51.920 the director of the mood Disorder Program and the psycho 28 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:57.159 Pharmacological Consultation Clinic at Toughts Medical Center and as I said, 29 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:00.519 at professor at Tufts University School of Medicine. You've done 30 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:06.640 clinical work and research on depression, manic depressive illness, particularly 31 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:09.759 in the in exploring the role of antidepressants in the 32 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:12.800 treatment of bipolar disorder. And you've published over one hundred 33 00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:16.680 scientific articles and has written or edited eight books. So 34 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:22.879 you're you're a busy guy. Tell us what the subject 35 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:23.680 that he end is. 36 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:24.800 You know, psychedelics. 37 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:28.039 Most of us of a certain age when you hear 38 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:31.400 the word psychedelic, you think, oh LSD or something. These 39 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:35.960 are psycho psychedelic mushrooms or psychic is it more than mushrooms? 40 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:39.479 But it's called psychedelic substances. What are we talking about? 41 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:39.759 First? 42 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:43.439 Of all right, so thank you for having me as 43 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:46.479 And let me just add the reason that I'm really 44 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:54.800 part of this debate is because I'm currently president of 45 00:02:54.840 --> 00:03:00.800 the Massachusetts Psychiatric Society, which is the state branch of 46 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:06.840 the American Psychiatric Association, and we've come out formally opposed 47 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:11.280 to this ballot question, and so as the president of 48 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:16.360 the Society this year it's a one year service, I'm 49 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:19.400 sort of the spokesperson for us on it. Besides what 50 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:22.960 you said about my having this background in psychopharmacology meaning 51 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:28.719 medication research in psychiatry, and thirty years of clinical experience 52 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:32.879 treating psychiatric patients, especially with mood illnesses, depression, and bipolar illness. 53 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:38.039 I'll estimate I've probably treated over ten thousand people, and 54 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:41.400 I'm actively clinically treating people now too. But in addition 55 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:43.439 to those roles as a doctor and a researcher, the 56 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:46.719 reason I'm really talking these days is because I'm president 57 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:51.439 of the main psychiatric society. So what we're talking about. 58 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:53.840 Your question was, what are we talking about in terms 59 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.800 of mushrooms. Mushrooms is a kind of a generic phrase 60 00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:03.479 to describe certain kinds of mushroom which come from a 61 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:12.120 family that produces this drug which is called psilocybin PSI 62 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:15.919 l o cybi n psilocybin, and that's actually the name 63 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:20.560 of the mushroom family. It's called psilocyb. And these are 64 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:25.839 culled psychedelics based on what got popularized in the nineteen 65 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:29.600 fifties by a British novelist, Alvis Huxley. But actually in 66 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:33.720 the scientific world the class has always been called hallucinogens, 67 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:37.720 which is the name implies they all cause hallucinations, that's 68 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:38.480 their main effect. 69 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:42.680 Yeah, And some of the ads that I have seen 70 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:45.480 on television, and i'd get to have someone on from 71 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:49.199 the other side, they have some folks who say that 72 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:54.839 they've used these and it helps them, and it's a 73 00:04:54.959 --> 00:05:01.120 very I guess it's a sympathetic if someone can use 74 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:05.000 something and can help them, and I guess there's a 75 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:07.120 real potential to harm people. 76 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:07.600 With this as well. 77 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:11.600 Correct, Absolutely so. The reason you're saying these ads on 78 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:15.399 television only about the benefits or the pro side is 79 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:17.399 and we can talk about this more in a while, 80 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:21.319 is that they're highly funded by venture capitalists who have 81 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:24.920 spent so far at least five million dollars to get 82 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:27.240 this question on the ballot. If it wasn't for all 83 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:29.600 the money they've spent on it, we wouldn't be sitting 84 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:31.879 here talking about it. And of course they're not doing 85 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:33.759 that out of the goodness of their heart, even though 86 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:35.959 that's what they say, and the advocates will say they're 87 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:39.160 doing that because the majority of them also own investments 88 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:43.439 in psychedelic companies and stand to make billions of dollars 89 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:45.800 once people get used to using these or want to 90 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:46.560 use them. 91 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:49.079 But the. 92 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:57.720 Question that you that you raised is, you know, why 93 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:01.120 are we what do we think about the fact that 94 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.560 people say that they benefit from it, And the fact 95 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:08.879 is maybe they are helpful, But the fact that someone 96 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:12.720 says they benefit them from something doesn't prove that they're helpful. 97 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:16.120 You know, for two thousand years in medicine, people had 98 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:20.160 leading with leeches and people thought that was helpful. And 99 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:22.399 we learned over time that you have to take people's 100 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:27.639 opinions and test them with scientific research. And specifically, we 101 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:31.399 do these studies where people get randomly assigned to two groups, 102 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:34.000 the treatment group or not, and that's the only way 103 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:35.839 you can really tell that treatment works. You have to 104 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:38.399 have a comparison group, and it has to be random. 105 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:38.439 So that. 106 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:43.360 I think most of our audience understands that they're taking 107 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:45.800 placebosh and usually. 108 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:48.360 They get a placebo, which means a sugar pill. It's nothing. 109 00:06:48.839 --> 00:06:51.319 And so until you do that, you can't tell that 110 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:53.519 the treatment makes people better, because a lot of times 111 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.639 people get better because of that placebo effect, because they're 112 00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:59.000 really happy to take something or they believe in it, 113 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:02.879 and that's definitely a major factor here. So you want 114 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:04.800 to control for that, you want to correct for it, 115 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:07.000 and until we do that, we won't really know that 116 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:09.720 these things are effective. And there is some research along 117 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:12.279 those lines, some of which suggests some benefit and some 118 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:14.279 of which doesn't, which we can talk about. 119 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:16.399 Okay, we're going to take a quick break. 120 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:20.959 My guest is doctor Nassier Gami. As I mentioned, he 121 00:07:21.079 --> 00:07:25.839 is a professor of psychiatry at a tough medical school, 122 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:30.040 a really impressive resume, and is dealing with has dealt 123 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:33.240 with these issues. I will admit this is something that 124 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:38.720 I'm not particularly familiar with, but I remember how marijuana 125 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:43.240 became legalized in this state several years ago, and the 126 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:49.959 initial impact, the initial suggestion was that people, some people 127 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:52.240 would have a medical benefit, and it's just going to 128 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:57.120 become available for people who needed medical treatment that included marijuana, 129 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:00.879 and now we have marijuana sold literally through the state. 130 00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:05.000 So I wonder, and I'm going to ask doctor Gami 131 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:08.720 if that's what one of his concerns is and how 132 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.319 widespread this would be and how many people, once this 133 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.800 stuff is out and about would say, well, I think 134 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:15.680 I'm going to try that and could it could some 135 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:18.959 harm be done? So we got a lot to talk about. 136 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:22.040 If you know or if you have an opinion on this, 137 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:24.160 you're more than welcome. If you have a question, you're 138 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:27.000 more than welcome. It's one of the ballot questions, Question four. 139 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:31.439 A vote, a yes vote would make it legal, and 140 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:35.679 we'll explain exactly what what legalization means. And no vote 141 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:37.399 would say no, it's not going to be legal. We'll 142 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:40.080 get to all of that. The number six, one, seven, two, five, 143 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.159 four to ten thirty six one seven, nine, three, one, 144 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:45.799 ten thirty. We'll get to calls as soon as we can. 145 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:48.080 We'll fill up those lines and we'll get going back 146 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:48.799 on night Side. 147 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:49.240 Run after this. 148 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:53.679 Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World 149 00:08:53.799 --> 00:08:57.320 night Side Studios. I'm DOWNBZ News Radio. 150 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:01.159 We're talking about the legalization of psychedelic here in Massachusetts. 151 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:05.879 My guest is doctor Nasser Gami, who is a professor 152 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:11.120 doctor of Psychiatry at the Toughts Medical School, University of 153 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:15.480 Toughs University Medical School. This is question number four from 154 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:20.799 all of the polls that I have seen. This is 155 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:26.440 probably at this point the closest poll of the five questions. Again, 156 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:28.840 I think this is one that could go either way. 157 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.279 Which is more important for us to all pay attention 158 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:34.720 to it and this I just want to read this 159 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:38.879 a little bit of the summary. The proposed law would 160 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:42.080 allow persons age twenty one and older to grow, possess, 161 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:47.200 and use certain natural psychedelic substances in certain circumstances. The 162 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:53.639 psychedelic substances allowed would be two substances found in mushrooms, 163 00:09:54.080 --> 00:10:00.080 psilocybin and citizen, and three substances found in plants. I 164 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.480 can't even well mescaline is one of them. The other 165 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:05.360 two icon pronounced. These substances could be purchased at an 166 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:10.840 approved location for use under the supervision of a license facilitator. 167 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:15.080 That's interesting. What does that mean, doctor? We're not talking 168 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:18.320 about marijuana. Where you go in and you purchase your 169 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:22.879 marijuana and you take it home, right, you got There 170 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.759 are going to be people who are licensed facilitators, so 171 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:30.919 you're able to purchase this at an approved location for 172 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:34.679 use under the supervision of a license facilitator. 173 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:35.360 I'm a lawyer. 174 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:39.840 I'm reading that and I'm seeing that word for use 175 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:41.559 under the supervision. 176 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:42.600 Tell us what that means. 177 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:47.120 Yeah, So it's very misileating if you don't have it explained. 178 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:49.879 So there's two aspects of the bill. The first is 179 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:56.399 basically unregulated legalization. People can grow and distribute these five 180 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:00.759 hallucinogens drugs and cost hallucinations which I prefer the psychedelics 181 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:03.559 is a more sific name these five pollucinages. They can 182 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.759 grow them in their spare bedroom twelve feet by twelve 183 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:10.080 feet area or in a backyard, and they can distribute 184 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:12.039 them to their friends and family and no one can 185 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:14.759 stop them from doing so. They can't sell them, but 186 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:18.000 they can do anything short of that. In fact, in Colorado, 187 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:20.159 where there has been passed, there's a so called gray 188 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:22.639 market where these are being sold even though they're not 189 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:25.600 supposed to. And we can talk about how obviously people 190 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.039 under age twenty one are going to get them. Teenagers 191 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:32.960 and college students. But that's half the bill is letting 192 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:35.960 people basically have all the hallucinogens they want in a 193 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:38.720 twelve foot by twelve foot area that it's not a 194 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:43.440 small amount. And in fact, one of them, mescaline has 195 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.440 eighteen gram is how much you're allowed to have, which 196 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:50.039 is thirty times more than the average dose. So these 197 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:53.039 are not small amounts of some of these agents. At least, 198 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:56.159 the other half of the bill sounds like it's more reasonable, 199 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:59.200 like you have licensed facilitators in so call therapy centers. 200 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.200 Them is these are going to be high school graduates 201 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:04.960 who take a three month online course and then charge 202 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:07.879 you one thousand dollars a session in these so called 203 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:11.279 therapy centers. They are not medical doctors or medical professionals, 204 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.600 and they are not mental health professionals because the way 205 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:19.759 the law is written, it says that we cannot require 206 00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:23.759 that these people be medical professionals or mental health professionals, 207 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.120 which means you have to let them be non professionals. 208 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:30.200 And the fact is the medical professionals, the doctors, and 209 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:32.399 the mental health professionals are not going to sign up 210 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:37.159 to be so called licensed facilitators because these substances are 211 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:41.200 illegal federally, and we cannot legally prescribe them even if 212 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:43.399 the state passes this law. So it's going to be 213 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:45.480 given by high school graduates who are not going to 214 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.519 be sufficiently educated to figure out who should get these 215 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:51.559 things and who shouldn't, nor can they handle the psychotic 216 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:55.559 states of severe delusions and hallucinations which people call bad 217 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:59.279 trips that are going to happen with these substances or 218 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:01.919 the medical applications. One of the five, which is called 219 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:07.120 iba gain, actually has cardiac arrhythmias on the as its effect, 220 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:10.320 and it can it causes cardiac arrests or heart attacks 221 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.159 as a known side effect. And these people are not 222 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:14.720 going to be doctors who will know how to handle 223 00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:15.080 any of this. 224 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.879 Yeah, that is one of the three substances listed, iyebill gain. 225 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:21.559 I'm again, you didn't even want to try to pronounce 226 00:13:21.559 --> 00:13:25.399 the first one, din thy trip to mine or something. 227 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:29.120 Dimeso or you can just call a d MT, which 228 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:33.559 is the active ingredient in this plant called ayahuasca, which 229 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:35.720 almost killed one of my patients, which I can tell 230 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:36.679 you about it if you like it. 231 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:40.360 Yo, that's some Let's grab a couple of phone phone 232 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:43.039 calls here, we're going to keep going here. We've got 233 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.279 some full lines. The only lines that are available is 234 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:49.440 six one seven nine. I don't want Donna to have 235 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:54.039 to hang on so long. Donna, you called early your 236 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:58.279 thoughts on this and say hello to my guest here tonight. 237 00:13:58.000 --> 00:13:58.840 With us, Dr. 238 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:06.159 Hi Hi, and thank you for inviting me back. 239 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:06.519 Dan. 240 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:11.080 So, yeah, So I know that Eliza Dushku was there 241 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:15.399 was a Boston magazine article about her experience with this, 242 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:18.200 and I know that hers was a positive one. She's 243 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:22.240 from Watertown, by the way, which is where I'm from, Waham, Assachusetts. 244 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:27.159 So my question is, I know that other people have 245 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:31.159 taken them. You know, people I know personally have described 246 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:36.120 their experiences, some good, some you know, maybe they were 247 00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:40.960 scared by. And then you hear, you know, the the 248 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:46.000 possible legalization aspect, which I thought was going to give 249 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:51.639 the opportunity to tell how to fine tune the dosages, 250 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:56.639 et cetera. So, doctor Nasa, with regard to what you 251 00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:58.919 just said, it almost sounds like. 252 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:00.919 There's this. 253 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:06.799 Ambiguity about what is actually going to happen if question 254 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:07.600 four happens. 255 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.279 Yeah, I would say it's more than ambiguity. The question 256 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:14.759 is really written in a way to exclude the medical community. 257 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.559 But we were never consulted about this question. 258 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:18.399 You know. 259 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:21.320 We found out about it, you know, just a few 260 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:25.320 months ago. And the attitude of a lot of the 261 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:28.919 advocates is anti medical establishment. They say, the doctors aren't 262 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:32.159 helping us, so let's all just get our hallucinogens on 263 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:34.799 our own and use them ourselves. And then again, these 264 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:37.759 therapy centers, they set it up so that it's not 265 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:40.759 going to be legal for any medical professional to participate, 266 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:43.279 and it's going to be given by high school level 267 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:47.960 graduates or college graduates, but not people with psychiatrical medical expertise. 268 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:50.960 And let me just say, in terms of the positive experiences, 269 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:54.960 you know, as doctors, we see the negative experiences. We 270 00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:57.519 see a lot of patients who do badly, and they're 271 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:00.200 not going out and talking about how badly they're doing 272 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:05.679 in the media. And you know, they're not the people 273 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:10.519 that the advocates will bring out because when you suffer, 274 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:14.120 and you suffer tragically, usually you want to protect your 275 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:17.720 privacy and your confidentiality. But we as the doctor see 276 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:20.919 this a lot, so we're sort of speaking. I'm speaking 277 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.759 for my patients who do badly with the sollucinogens, and 278 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.759 I have many experiences with that, So yes, there are 279 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:30.919 positive experiences, that's what you usually hear about, but there 280 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:34.320 are many negative experiences, and because of privacy and confidentiality, 281 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.159 you tend not to hear about that as much. And 282 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:40.519 that's why, you know, we doctors are starting to talk 283 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:42.840 about it a little more so that the public gets 284 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.120 a full appreciation of the risks and the harms here 285 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:48.159 and not just the possible benefits. 286 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:50.919 Donna, it sounds to me this, Dan Ray Donna, sounds 287 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:53.919 to me like you're much kind of an advocate for 288 00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:56.799 this for legalization, am I reading you correctly? 289 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:01.720 Me personally, I can't do most drugs because I have 290 00:17:01.840 --> 00:17:05.200 weird autoimmune type issues that make it so that you 291 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:07.720 can't even tell what would happen to me if I 292 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:10.240 just took a sleeping pill and I was up for days. 293 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:14.599 So I know people who could bafit from this. Now, 294 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:19.079 having worked in a pharmacy at fifteen years old, I 295 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:22.359 saw how a lot of people suffered with the mental 296 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.440 illness aspect. You know, people on those you know drugs 297 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:30.000 where they feel like zombies, et cetera. And what I 298 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.039 read in the article that was written in Boston Magazine. 299 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:38.440 Was essentially that she got this benefit that she wasn't 300 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:42.440 able to get using any of the other avenues, including 301 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:46.079 her own self medication aspects. So the one thing I 302 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.440 liked about the article is that it appeared to be 303 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:51.039 I don't It didn't seem like she was doing it 304 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:53.880 on a regular basis. It almost like a one and done, 305 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:59.039 like a reset. Maybe, Doctor Nassa, is that what can 306 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:00.319 happen is. 307 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:01.400 A reset order? 308 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:05.319 Yeah, it's possibly. When you hear about benefits, it's often 309 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:09.279 with PTSD post traumatic stress disorder. And what usually people 310 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:12.160 say is that they take one dose or two doses 311 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.640 and then they get psychotherapy with it, and they get 312 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.720 a whole lot more benefit than they got with other 313 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.799 medications or therapies. And it's true that the medications that 314 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:23.880 we have are pretty limited in their benefit with PTSD. 315 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:27.799 But it's also true that the psychedelics have not been proven, 316 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:30.880 have not been studied compared to the treatments that we 317 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:32.960 have to prove that they're better. They may be, they're 318 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:35.559 just not proven. The one thing that's been studied is 319 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:40.079 MDMA ecstasy, and it was better than placebo in a 320 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.319 study that was we got a lot of attention a 321 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:45.119 few months ago because it went to the FDA, but 322 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:47.359 that's not one of the five substances that's going to 323 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:49.000 be in this bill, so even if that works, that 324 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:53.160 won't be helping people. And the FDA actually rejected it 325 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.359 because of ethical problems where the psychedelic advocates who did 326 00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:02.160 the study were being even actually inappropriate with the patients 327 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:05.799 at least one person. And also there was some data 328 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:09.200 problems where some patients said that they did worse, but 329 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:11.880 in the study they were claimed to have responded. So 330 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.559 I think the jury is out on whether these things 331 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:17.200 work for PTSD. But that's the one place where people 332 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.400 have talked about it the most. I just want to add. 333 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.160 The other place is depression, and there it's been studied 334 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:27.920 more and some studies find that there's some benefit, but 335 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:30.359 they always see and to be the same as our 336 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:35.039 current antidepressants, which are much safer. So in depression at least, 337 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.440 it's not the case that these drugs are a whole 338 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:39.160 lot better than what we have. And you know, the 339 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:41.079 claim that's made that this will solve the mental health 340 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:44.079 crisis is not supported by that science and is really 341 00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:46.400 more like science fiction. Fantasy in my opinion. 342 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:51.119 All right, doctor, thank you, Donna. I've got a news 343 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:52.720 break at the bottom of the hour here which I 344 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:55.519 have to take. I appreciate you calling in, and we'll 345 00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:57.960 be dealing with this subject again next week. 346 00:19:58.079 --> 00:19:59.640 I think it's Tuesday. 347 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:02.680 Night, but I'll have to get you more information and 348 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:04.839 maybe you can join us Tuesday night as well. 349 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:06.920 Okay, I appreciate it. 350 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.480 Take care of me, Thank you. 351 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:12.079 We'll take quick news break, be back with my guest, 352 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:18.240 doctor Nassir Gomi. He is a psychiatrist. He is a 353 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:24.799 professor of psychiatry at Tufts Medical School, a great medical school, 354 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:29.880 and we're talking about the legalization of psychedelics here in Massachusetts, 355 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:33.880 as the ballot question reflects. Doctor Gami likes to refer 356 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.160 to them as the as hallucinations, so I'll use both 357 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:39.880 of those terms interchangeably. We'll be back on Nightside with 358 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:44.200 more comments and questions and information on ballot question number four. 359 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:45.440 Here on Nightside. 360 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:49.799 You're on Nightside with Dan Ray on w b Z 361 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:51.440 Boston's news radio. 362 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:54.279 Thank you, Nicole. 363 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:57.839 We're talking about question number four in the Massachusetts ballot 364 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:03.880 this year. It deals with the potential legalization of psychedelics 365 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:06.400 as the language that is used. 366 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:08.680 In the question. 367 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:13.599 My guest, doctor Nasaagami, refers them to more likes to 368 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:18.000 use the phrase as a hallucigens. You know, when you 369 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:21.119 think back to the nineteen sixties and things like that. 370 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:23.759 It's a very close. According to the polls, this is 371 00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:26.039 one of those that's going to be probably the closest 372 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:29.400 of all the questions on the ballot, at least that's 373 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:31.200 what the Poles say. Let's see what the questions are 374 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:35.680 as we continue with my guest, who again is a doctor, 375 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:39.559 a professor at the Tough Medical School. He is a 376 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:44.839 professor of psychiatry. There, let me go next to Steven Cambridge. 377 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:45.559 Steve, you were. 378 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.160 Next time Nightside. Thanks for calling in, doctor Gami. This 379 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:49.680 is one of my best callers. 380 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:53.680 Dan says that he sets me up. Thank you, Dan, 381 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:54.599 You're very kind. 382 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:58.279 What I believe, by the way, go right ahead. 383 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:02.799 They were hallucinogens known as hallucinogens to a psychiatrist in 384 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.599 Canada named Humphrey Osmond, who is the man who introduced 385 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:13.039 them to Aldis Suxley coined the term psychedelic, right okay, 386 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:18.160 and I have two points. I guess I would say 387 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:21.039 one is you really would never be able to do 388 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:24.599 a randomized test with these because it certainly wouldn't be 389 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:28.880 a blind test because this subject would immediately know he 390 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:32.720 was given, So you couldn't really do a good randomized 391 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:33.440 test with these. 392 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:36.480 Yeah, that's a good point, and I think that's one 393 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:38.240 of the problems that so those of us we are 394 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:42.759 concerned about these agents feel is that the studies overestimate 395 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:46.599 the benefit because people can tell you have visual hallucinations 396 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:49.519 and distortions, and you hear voices, you can tell you're 397 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:52.960 on this, and the placebo obviously doesn't do that. So 398 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:55.920 when you don't when you can tell, then that always 399 00:22:55.960 --> 00:23:00.240 overestimates the benefit of the thing you're studying. So the 400 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:02.960 real effects are lower than what people say in these studies. 401 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.599